1 00:00:00,160 --> 00:00:02,880 Speaker 1: When I say your name, there's this kind of like 2 00:00:03,080 --> 00:00:06,600 Speaker 1: starry eyed thing that they get, which I think is 3 00:00:06,640 --> 00:00:12,440 Speaker 1: the confluence of having been educated and entertained like your film, 4 00:00:12,920 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: and they're just like, oh my god, like you really 5 00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:19,720 Speaker 1: whoa Like they have a very visceral response to you. 6 00:00:19,960 --> 00:00:22,320 Speaker 2: That's a delight to hear the fact that the movie's 7 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 2: sticking with people. To me, that's the testament of quality 8 00:00:24,920 --> 00:00:27,720 Speaker 2: of how frequently I think of something after I've consumed it. 9 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 2: So it's nice to hear. 10 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think it's a marker of something that 11 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:36,160 Speaker 1: is actually sustainable. I heard a great story about Bob 12 00:00:36,200 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 1: Dylan remarking to his son as his son had sold 13 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: I think six million records or something with a lot 14 00:00:42,360 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: of records, maybe more than a Dylan record had sold. 15 00:00:47,800 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 1: And Dylan's response was great, now do it for thirty years. Yeah, Hello, 16 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: I'm mini driver. 17 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:03,520 Speaker 3: I've always loved Prust's questionnaire. 18 00:01:04,000 --> 00:01:08,160 Speaker 1: It was originally in nineteenth century parlor game where players 19 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: would ask each other thirty five questions aimed at revealing 20 00:01:11,680 --> 00:01:15,399 Speaker 1: the other player's true nature. In asking different people the 21 00:01:15,440 --> 00:01:18,839 Speaker 1: same set of questions, you can make observations about which 22 00:01:18,880 --> 00:01:21,399 Speaker 1: truths appear to be universal, And it made me wonder, 23 00:01:21,800 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: what if these questions were just a jumping off one, 24 00:01:24,600 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: what greater depths would be revealed if I asked these 25 00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: questions as conversation starters. So I adapted Prus's questionnaire and 26 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,840 Speaker 1: I wrote my own seven questions that I personally think 27 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: are pertinent to a person's story. They are when and 28 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,720 Speaker 1: where were you happiest? What is the quality you like 29 00:01:40,840 --> 00:01:45,280 Speaker 1: least about yourself? What relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love 30 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:49,680 Speaker 1: for you? What question would you most like answered, What person, place, 31 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:51,840 Speaker 1: or experience has shaped you the most? 32 00:01:52,240 --> 00:01:53,520 Speaker 3: What would be your last meal? 33 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,240 Speaker 1: And can you tell me something in your life that's 34 00:01:56,320 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 1: grown out of a personal disaster? And I've gathered a 35 00:01:59,720 --> 00:02:04,480 Speaker 1: group of really remarkable people, ones that I am honored 36 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:06,800 Speaker 1: and humbled to have had the chance to engage with. 37 00:02:07,280 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: You may not hear their answers to all seven of 38 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:13,640 Speaker 1: these questions. We've whittled it down to which questions felt 39 00:02:13,680 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: closest to their experience or the most surprising, or created 40 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:23,120 Speaker 1: the most fertile ground to connect. My guest today is 41 00:02:23,160 --> 00:02:27,920 Speaker 1: the Academy Award winning writer and director Cord Jefferson. Cord 42 00:02:27,960 --> 00:02:31,799 Speaker 1: created the movie American fiction, the cracklingly smart film, which 43 00:02:31,840 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: expands and updates Personval ever its two thousand and one 44 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: novel Erasure. Now, if you listen to this show regularly, 45 00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:40,680 Speaker 1: you'll know it's not really a setup for any kind 46 00:02:40,720 --> 00:02:44,280 Speaker 1: of promo. But what it does offer, and what Cord 47 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,200 Speaker 1: so brilliantly explores in our chat, is the opportunity to 48 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,080 Speaker 1: investigate the way of the creative heart and to consciously 49 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:58,640 Speaker 1: reveal that, well, it ain't all roses. He introduced me 50 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 1: to the idea of the third place problem, which observes 51 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:04,960 Speaker 1: that we are missing spaces outside of our home and 52 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:09,960 Speaker 1: places of work to interact with and build community. We 53 00:03:10,000 --> 00:03:13,720 Speaker 1: also talked about a shared love of spectacle cuisine, which 54 00:03:13,760 --> 00:03:16,440 Speaker 1: is a genre I've just created, And you're allowed me 55 00:03:16,480 --> 00:03:18,320 Speaker 1: to tell a story about this guy who once used 56 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,920 Speaker 1: a live crab of a seafood tower to try and 57 00:03:20,960 --> 00:03:24,360 Speaker 1: clip the end of his cigar. This is one of 58 00:03:24,400 --> 00:03:28,480 Speaker 1: the most honest and raw conversations that I've had about life, 59 00:03:28,720 --> 00:03:32,200 Speaker 1: the space we take up and are inherited, trauma, and 60 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:36,080 Speaker 1: the lives of our generationally distant parents. It was an 61 00:03:36,120 --> 00:03:38,080 Speaker 1: honor and a privilege to talk. 62 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:44,240 Speaker 3: Where and when were you. 63 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:49,400 Speaker 2: Happiest right now, in this very moment. I'm in New 64 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:52,440 Speaker 2: York City in a hotel, and I think that I am. 65 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 2: I'm the happiest now that I've ever been a happiest. 66 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 2: Happiness has been a very elusive thing for me for 67 00:03:58,640 --> 00:04:02,400 Speaker 2: a very long time. Yeah, I always assumed that contentment 68 00:04:02,560 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 2: wasn't going to be a thing for me, that I 69 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 2: was always going to be sort of like searching and struggling, 70 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,680 Speaker 2: and that was just that was just my temperament, I thought, 71 00:04:09,720 --> 00:04:11,600 Speaker 2: And that was just going to be you know, other 72 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:13,720 Speaker 2: people could be happy and I was just not going 73 00:04:13,760 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 2: to be one of those people. And I just kind 74 00:04:15,520 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 2: of grinded it out like that for decades. And in 75 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:24,160 Speaker 2: twenty eighteen, I was thirty six, and it was the 76 00:04:24,200 --> 00:04:27,960 Speaker 2: worst year of my life, truly, you know, shockingly, because 77 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: on the surface, everything was going well. It was my 78 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 2: career was flourishing, and I was making all this money, 79 00:04:33,800 --> 00:04:36,960 Speaker 2: more money than I ever made before, and I was, 80 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,920 Speaker 2: you know, working on all these great projects. But you know, 81 00:04:40,000 --> 00:04:42,320 Speaker 2: behind the scenes, I was just always miserable. I would 82 00:04:42,560 --> 00:04:44,719 Speaker 2: cry in the shower and sort of like I have 83 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 2: to pull all my car over to the side of 84 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:49,560 Speaker 2: the road because I was weeping, and I just generally 85 00:04:49,600 --> 00:04:53,359 Speaker 2: felt miserable, and I felt like this is unsustainable. It 86 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 2: felt like I can't keep living like this and being 87 00:04:55,520 --> 00:04:59,440 Speaker 2: miserable like this, And you know, I knew that somehow 88 00:04:59,839 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 2: I I was going to destroy my life if I 89 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:05,239 Speaker 2: didn't sort of get some help, and so I decided 90 00:05:05,279 --> 00:05:07,800 Speaker 2: to go to therapy in twenty eighteen. I've basically been 91 00:05:07,800 --> 00:05:11,279 Speaker 2: going to weekly therapy, if not more since since then, 92 00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 2: so it'll be seven years next year. And also when 93 00:05:14,600 --> 00:05:18,320 Speaker 2: I turned forty on my fortieth birthday, my gift to 94 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:21,360 Speaker 2: myself was that I started taking zoloft. I started taking 95 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,800 Speaker 2: an antidepressant and anti anxiety medication, which has kind of 96 00:05:24,839 --> 00:05:27,919 Speaker 2: changed my life in a very real way. And so 97 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:32,640 Speaker 2: all of a sudden, for the past year or so, 98 00:05:32,800 --> 00:05:34,919 Speaker 2: I've taken a step back and realize, like, oh, is 99 00:05:34,960 --> 00:05:37,160 Speaker 2: this Maybe this is what happiness feels like. I think 100 00:05:37,200 --> 00:05:39,800 Speaker 2: that maybe I feel happy for the first time in 101 00:05:39,839 --> 00:05:43,400 Speaker 2: my adult life. It's a strange feeling, because sometimes, you know, 102 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:49,000 Speaker 2: I wake up sort of I have this muscle memory of, well, 103 00:05:49,760 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 2: it's time to wake up and realize why you're miserable today, 104 00:05:53,040 --> 00:05:59,040 Speaker 2: and sort of that instinct I still have that sometimes, 105 00:05:59,080 --> 00:06:00,960 Speaker 2: But then I sit there and I realized that, well, 106 00:06:00,960 --> 00:06:03,000 Speaker 2: there's no reason to be miserable today, Like things are 107 00:06:03,000 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 2: going pretty well, and yeah there's challenges here and there, 108 00:06:05,680 --> 00:06:09,160 Speaker 2: of course, but it's no longer the kind of gloom 109 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 2: that just kind of was hanging over me constantly. And 110 00:06:12,360 --> 00:06:15,040 Speaker 2: so I think that at the age of yeah, at 111 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:18,560 Speaker 2: the age of forty two, I finally feel like I'm 112 00:06:18,600 --> 00:06:21,400 Speaker 2: the happiest I've ever been, which is it's exciting to 113 00:06:21,480 --> 00:06:24,159 Speaker 2: have finally reached this position because especially when I had 114 00:06:24,240 --> 00:06:26,760 Speaker 2: sort of resigned myself to the idea that it would 115 00:06:26,760 --> 00:06:27,599 Speaker 2: never happen for me. 116 00:06:28,560 --> 00:06:31,360 Speaker 3: Wow, was it a conscious thing? 117 00:06:31,440 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: Like when you were younger, did you really have a 118 00:06:33,920 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 1: kind of executive chat with yourself that was like, look, 119 00:06:36,720 --> 00:06:38,520 Speaker 1: you and me called we're never going to be happy, 120 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:40,720 Speaker 1: and this is just how it is, and I'm going 121 00:06:40,800 --> 00:06:43,800 Speaker 1: to do all this other stuff, but happiness is not 122 00:06:43,839 --> 00:06:46,240 Speaker 1: anything I'm going to set my coordinates for. Like, was 123 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:47,000 Speaker 1: it that conscious? 124 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, we always think that we're hiding stuff from our parents, 125 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:52,080 Speaker 2: but it's kind of silly and sort of like when 126 00:06:52,120 --> 00:06:54,240 Speaker 2: you get older to think that you could hide anything 127 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 2: from your parents. Really, your parents know you so well, 128 00:06:56,240 --> 00:06:58,960 Speaker 2: and when I was nineteen, my mother said to me, 129 00:06:59,480 --> 00:07:03,080 Speaker 2: I think that you have clinical depression. And I said, 130 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: I get out of bed, I go to school, I 131 00:07:05,920 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 2: hold down a job, I exercise, Like all these things 132 00:07:09,160 --> 00:07:12,160 Speaker 2: that I had been taught were sort of like hallmarks 133 00:07:12,160 --> 00:07:14,720 Speaker 2: of a depressive. I was like, that doesn't bear any 134 00:07:14,760 --> 00:07:17,000 Speaker 2: resemblance to my life, and so I think that you're 135 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:21,240 Speaker 2: you know, you're wrong. But what I did say was like, yeah, 136 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:23,880 Speaker 2: I think that I have a gloomy temperament from time 137 00:07:23,920 --> 00:07:26,440 Speaker 2: to time, and I certainly think that I'm a cynic 138 00:07:26,480 --> 00:07:28,640 Speaker 2: in many ways. But you know, to me, that was 139 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:33,000 Speaker 2: just I was just a young realist and this the 140 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 2: world is hell and the world is pain, and I thought, 141 00:07:35,400 --> 00:07:36,800 Speaker 2: you know, I really wanted to be in like a 142 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:39,640 Speaker 2: French new wave movie and like smoking cigarettes and kind 143 00:07:39,640 --> 00:07:42,960 Speaker 2: of nihilistic, and I thought that that was kind of cool. 144 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:44,760 Speaker 2: And it was like, that's okay, if this is how 145 00:07:44,760 --> 00:07:47,080 Speaker 2: it's going to be, because you know, you have an 146 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:49,760 Speaker 2: artistic temperament, we'll say, and kind of it's okay, you're 147 00:07:49,840 --> 00:07:52,920 Speaker 2: kind of grumpy and you know, surly, I would say, 148 00:07:53,320 --> 00:07:56,040 Speaker 2: but I thought that that was okay. I sort of 149 00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 2: had this foolish idea that I think a lot of 150 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,080 Speaker 2: young aspiring artists do, which is that you know, art 151 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 2: comes from your pain and your misery. You know, that's 152 00:08:04,200 --> 00:08:06,920 Speaker 2: where the good stuff comes from, is from being upset 153 00:08:06,960 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 2: all the time, and that you know, happy art is 154 00:08:10,360 --> 00:08:12,640 Speaker 2: boring art, and that kind of thing. And I think 155 00:08:12,680 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 2: that it was okay to me because it felt like 156 00:08:16,480 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 2: that was my heroes. My heroes were like Miles Davis, 157 00:08:20,560 --> 00:08:23,800 Speaker 2: like these surly artists who were sort of like mean 158 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,600 Speaker 2: to people and self destructive, and it was like, that's 159 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:28,840 Speaker 2: who I want to be like. And so to me, 160 00:08:28,880 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 2: it felt like it was a fair deal with myself 161 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 2: that you're going to be unhappy, but you're also going 162 00:08:34,760 --> 00:08:37,559 Speaker 2: to sort of live a creative life, and a lot 163 00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 2: of creative people are unhappy, and so that's okay. And 164 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,920 Speaker 2: so I did, actually, you know, have a conversation with 165 00:08:44,000 --> 00:08:46,000 Speaker 2: myself and just think like that's okay, because I think 166 00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,280 Speaker 2: that there's also this thing that like it means that 167 00:08:48,320 --> 00:08:51,040 Speaker 2: you see something that other people don't. There's James Baldwin 168 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:53,360 Speaker 2: quote that I'm going to paraphrase where he says, to 169 00:08:53,400 --> 00:08:56,480 Speaker 2: be black and halfway conscious in the United States is 170 00:08:56,520 --> 00:08:59,440 Speaker 2: to be in a near constant state of rage. And 171 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 2: I think that that was sort of like another thing 172 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:05,320 Speaker 2: that it just felt like, you know, ignorance is bliss, 173 00:09:05,360 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 2: and so it felt like, you know, the stupid happy 174 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,360 Speaker 2: people were sort of like the ones that I didn't 175 00:09:09,360 --> 00:09:11,960 Speaker 2: want to be like and that I wanted to separate 176 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:15,719 Speaker 2: myself from. And so I was somebody who was thoughtful 177 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:18,840 Speaker 2: and considered the world and paid attention, and so because 178 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 2: of that, I was also destined to just be miserable 179 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 2: all the time. And yeah, I was just a stupid kid, 180 00:09:24,840 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 2: you know, you realize now and I'm forty two. I 181 00:09:26,760 --> 00:09:28,560 Speaker 2: used to think that I didn't want to live to 182 00:09:28,600 --> 00:09:31,760 Speaker 2: turn forty. I was like, you know, after fortyes boring, 183 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:33,680 Speaker 2: like you got to get the good stuff when you're young, 184 00:09:33,760 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 2: Like who cares when you're forty five? Like how lame 185 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:39,680 Speaker 2: must life be when you're that age? And I think 186 00:09:39,720 --> 00:09:42,680 Speaker 2: that now. The thing that I've realized when I finally 187 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 2: sort of met this therapist to one of the things 188 00:09:45,920 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 2: that I was dealing with in twenty eighteen was that 189 00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 2: my mother had died in twenty sixteen and I was 190 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 2: still grieving her, and I wasn't really doing what I 191 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:56,079 Speaker 2: needed to do to process that grief. And so when 192 00:09:56,120 --> 00:09:58,480 Speaker 2: I went and met my therapist, he told me, I 193 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,560 Speaker 2: think that you have clinical depression. That was the first 194 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,959 Speaker 2: thing that he said, Well, actually that's not It was 195 00:10:04,080 --> 00:10:07,120 Speaker 2: very funny that he said that because my first session 196 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,559 Speaker 2: with him, I came in and I tried to explain 197 00:10:09,600 --> 00:10:11,719 Speaker 2: why I wanted to meet him, and then I just 198 00:10:11,880 --> 00:10:14,960 Speaker 2: started crying, and I cried as I spoke for about 199 00:10:15,320 --> 00:10:17,040 Speaker 2: five to ten minutes, and then he goes, you know what, 200 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 2: I think that you might be depressed, And it turned 201 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:27,520 Speaker 2: out that it was exactly right. Yeah, And I said 202 00:10:27,520 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 2: the same thing that I said to my mother. You know, 203 00:10:29,280 --> 00:10:31,120 Speaker 2: I exercise, I get out of bed. And he said, 204 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,439 Speaker 2: you know, the same way that there's highly functioning alcoholics, 205 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:38,480 Speaker 2: there's highly functioning drug addicts, like there's highly functioning depressives too. 206 00:10:38,679 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 2: So it's not that you don't have this just because 207 00:10:41,440 --> 00:10:44,240 Speaker 2: you're able to achieve those things. It means that imagine 208 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:46,839 Speaker 2: what you could achieve if you didn't have this thing 209 00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:48,480 Speaker 2: hanging over your head all the time. That's how you 210 00:10:48,480 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 2: should look at it. And so that was really eye 211 00:10:51,640 --> 00:10:55,120 Speaker 2: opening for me. And then beyond that, I've realized like 212 00:10:55,240 --> 00:10:58,440 Speaker 2: learning to sort of like get over my issues and 213 00:10:58,520 --> 00:11:01,160 Speaker 2: taking the meds and doing the work in therapy. The 214 00:11:01,240 --> 00:11:04,800 Speaker 2: work has gotten better because I'm happy, you know, like 215 00:11:04,880 --> 00:11:09,079 Speaker 2: my creativity I feel like is skyrocketed now that I'm 216 00:11:09,120 --> 00:11:12,440 Speaker 2: sort of not dealing with that stuff anymore, because you know, 217 00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:16,200 Speaker 2: it opened up a world of new emotions to me, firstly, 218 00:11:16,240 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 2: and then secondly, it's just made me more pleasant to 219 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,240 Speaker 2: be around, and it's made me more excited to be 220 00:11:21,280 --> 00:11:23,640 Speaker 2: around other people, and it's made me more excited to 221 00:11:23,960 --> 00:11:27,440 Speaker 2: talk to collaborators and to work in an environment in 222 00:11:27,480 --> 00:11:30,600 Speaker 2: which I'm having a healthy creative relationship with a lot 223 00:11:30,640 --> 00:11:33,360 Speaker 2: of different people. Like it's just if anything that's put 224 00:11:33,440 --> 00:11:37,040 Speaker 2: my creativity I feel like on a high speed rail. 225 00:11:37,200 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 2: And so it was just I'm really really happy that 226 00:11:40,520 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 2: I didn't self destruct before I reached this point because 227 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,560 Speaker 2: it's been just so eye opening and so thrilling. It 228 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:49,480 Speaker 2: feels like I've been reborn in some ways and I 229 00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,640 Speaker 2: have a second opportunity of life. It really does. 230 00:11:52,400 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 3: Wow, I'm so glad that you're happiest now. 231 00:11:55,720 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 2: Thanks. 232 00:11:57,240 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, so interesting, Like you don't strike me as yeah, yeah, 233 00:12:02,400 --> 00:12:04,120 Speaker 1: but I love that he lives inside of you. 234 00:12:04,280 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 2: But that's because I learned. I got really good at 235 00:12:06,640 --> 00:12:09,400 Speaker 2: suppressing it. You know, I got really good at playing 236 00:12:10,120 --> 00:12:13,000 Speaker 2: playing the game. I got really good being able to 237 00:12:13,000 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 2: walk into a room and convince people that I was, like, yeah, 238 00:12:16,080 --> 00:12:18,280 Speaker 2: I'm the happiest guy in the room. That was like 239 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:20,960 Speaker 2: a real quality that I had. But that made it 240 00:12:21,000 --> 00:12:23,480 Speaker 2: even worse, you know, because then nobody really knew how 241 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 2: I felt. And that's why I would cry alone, is 242 00:12:25,400 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 2: because I was never actually sharing my honest self with anybody. 243 00:12:28,760 --> 00:12:31,400 Speaker 2: I was always hiding it, and so that just augmented 244 00:12:31,440 --> 00:12:32,839 Speaker 2: the problems that I was already having. 245 00:12:37,679 --> 00:12:40,320 Speaker 1: So what is the quality you like least about yourself 246 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:43,679 Speaker 1: if you've been kind of excavating them? 247 00:12:44,080 --> 00:12:45,600 Speaker 3: How to access the happier bit. 248 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 2: I'm very very self critical. I really am my own 249 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:53,600 Speaker 2: harshest critic. I find it difficult to appreciate myself. I 250 00:12:53,640 --> 00:12:56,680 Speaker 2: find it difficult to accept my faults. I find it 251 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 2: difficult to forgive myself for making mistakes. A large part 252 00:13:00,760 --> 00:13:03,400 Speaker 2: of my therapy is spent going over my relationship with 253 00:13:03,400 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 2: my father, and he looms so large in my life 254 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:10,680 Speaker 2: and so large in my psyche, and he was a 255 00:13:10,760 --> 00:13:14,520 Speaker 2: very demanding figure. It's very hard on us high expectations. 256 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:17,760 Speaker 2: And I was sitting with a friend a couple of 257 00:13:17,840 --> 00:13:20,120 Speaker 2: years ago, another friend who's going over sort of like 258 00:13:20,240 --> 00:13:23,600 Speaker 2: dealing with her own issues with her parents. And I 259 00:13:23,640 --> 00:13:25,560 Speaker 2: was telling her that I'm embarrassed at how much I 260 00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:28,320 Speaker 2: criticized myself. And I said, you know, I have a problem. 261 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 2: I've never been a person that can sort of like 262 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:32,120 Speaker 2: wake up and go back to sleep. Like that's rare 263 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:36,440 Speaker 2: for me, because when I wake up, there's always a 264 00:13:36,480 --> 00:13:38,640 Speaker 2: voice in my head going, you better get your ass 265 00:13:38,640 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 2: out of bed. You know, you better get to work, 266 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,040 Speaker 2: like you're lazy, You're not working hard enough. What's going on? 267 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:47,480 Speaker 2: What's wrong with you? Like everybody out there is going 268 00:13:47,520 --> 00:13:50,320 Speaker 2: to sort of like beat you. And I told her this, 269 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 2: and she said, you should ask yourself, why is that 270 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:56,320 Speaker 2: voice speaking to you in the second person. Why wouldn't 271 00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:58,240 Speaker 2: you say I need to get out of bed. Why 272 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 2: are you saying you need to get out of it right? 273 00:14:00,840 --> 00:14:04,600 Speaker 2: Why is that kind of disembodied that way? And I realized, like, oh, 274 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:07,679 Speaker 2: because it's probably my father's voice. It's not me speaking 275 00:14:07,679 --> 00:14:10,880 Speaker 2: to myself. It's sort of like me replicating the conversations 276 00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:12,679 Speaker 2: I had with my father in my own head, and 277 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,600 Speaker 2: so I have adopted that criticism and sort of started 278 00:14:16,600 --> 00:14:20,240 Speaker 2: criticizing myself, and it's frustrating, but it's also there's also 279 00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,600 Speaker 2: part of me that's like, maybe it's useful I will 280 00:14:23,360 --> 00:14:26,480 Speaker 2: distill my relationship with my father into this story that 281 00:14:27,200 --> 00:14:29,760 Speaker 2: I had, actually I think like suppressed for a long time, 282 00:14:29,800 --> 00:14:31,680 Speaker 2: but it's come up in the recent years and I 283 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,360 Speaker 2: think about it often. I used to play a lot 284 00:14:34,400 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 2: of soccer when I was a kid, and my parents 285 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,560 Speaker 2: got me private coaching lessons with this guy on the weekends, 286 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 2: and so on Saturdays I would go and sometimes there'd 287 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 2: be two of us. Sometimes there'd be three or four 288 00:14:46,880 --> 00:14:50,040 Speaker 2: of us, but at the end of every session you 289 00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:52,000 Speaker 2: would have a scrimmage, and so if it was four 290 00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:53,920 Speaker 2: of us, would be two on two. But that day 291 00:14:53,960 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 2: there was just two of us, so we did one 292 00:14:55,320 --> 00:14:58,440 Speaker 2: on one. And I'm from Arizona, so it's you know, 293 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 2: one hundred and eleven degrees in the summertime. It's Saturday. 294 00:15:01,960 --> 00:15:05,560 Speaker 2: I've been out here running like so hot, I'm so tired, 295 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 2: and I'm playing against this kid. As he's dribbling the 296 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 2: ball toward me, I hear this voice out of nowhere 297 00:15:11,600 --> 00:15:15,720 Speaker 2: scream beat him, beat him, he's tired, beat him. And 298 00:15:15,800 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 2: I look to the side and my father has shown 299 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:21,440 Speaker 2: up early and he's rooting for the other boy in 300 00:15:21,480 --> 00:15:25,720 Speaker 2: the scrimmage, like my own dad has shown up to 301 00:15:25,720 --> 00:15:30,720 Speaker 2: like cheer against me at this game. And so I 302 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 2: can't even remember what happened, but you know, practice is over. 303 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 2: I remember sitting in the car next to him and 304 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:38,680 Speaker 2: we're like driving in silence. I'm so mad at him, 305 00:15:38,720 --> 00:15:42,400 Speaker 2: I'm embarrassed, I'm angry, and we're driving along in silence, 306 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,120 Speaker 2: and at a certain point he turns to me and 307 00:15:44,160 --> 00:15:46,520 Speaker 2: he said, nobody in life is going to be harder 308 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 2: on you than I am, and that's going to make 309 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:51,920 Speaker 2: you strong. That's going to make you resilient, and it's 310 00:15:51,960 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 2: going to make you strong. And looking back on that, 311 00:15:55,760 --> 00:15:57,680 Speaker 2: I am incredibly resilient. I know. 312 00:15:57,800 --> 00:15:59,800 Speaker 3: But perhaps does he get to take the credit. 313 00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 2: I'm not trying to say that this is like a 314 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:05,680 Speaker 2: rosy story that I look back on fondly. It's certainly 315 00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,600 Speaker 2: a painful story in some ways. But what I'm saying 316 00:16:08,680 --> 00:16:12,680 Speaker 2: is I do believe that there was something in there 317 00:16:12,720 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 2: that has helped me. You know, you have to injure 318 00:16:15,640 --> 00:16:17,800 Speaker 2: your muscles for your muscles to grow, so like you 319 00:16:17,880 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 2: have to go through pain in order to sort of 320 00:16:19,760 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 2: get stronger in some ways. And it is a quality 321 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 2: that I think every artist needs to have, especially like 322 00:16:24,960 --> 00:16:29,280 Speaker 2: you really need to have just an undefeatable resilience. You 323 00:16:29,360 --> 00:16:31,240 Speaker 2: just need to wake up every day and say, like, 324 00:16:31,360 --> 00:16:34,080 Speaker 2: I don't care if all of these people said no 325 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 2: to me. I'm going to keep going. And so look, 326 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:39,360 Speaker 2: I think that there's probably other healthier ways to learn 327 00:16:39,400 --> 00:16:41,480 Speaker 2: that lesson, but I developed it in the way that 328 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 2: I developed it. And so you know, as much as 329 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:45,400 Speaker 2: I look at those moments and I'm like I wish 330 00:16:45,480 --> 00:16:48,400 Speaker 2: that we would have gone about that differently, I can't 331 00:16:48,440 --> 00:16:50,160 Speaker 2: look at it and say that it hasn't helped me 332 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:51,640 Speaker 2: in some way. Does that make sense? 333 00:16:52,320 --> 00:16:52,680 Speaker 3: It does. 334 00:16:53,840 --> 00:16:54,040 Speaker 2: Yeah. 335 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,240 Speaker 1: There was a dark night of the soul with my father, 336 00:16:56,440 --> 00:17:00,160 Speaker 1: who said a lot of stuff as fathers to, but 337 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: I do remember on one agonizing occasion, well, I again 338 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: just didn't really want to hear this particular thing was he. 339 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:11,680 Speaker 3: Said, It's all a gift. It's all this agony. 340 00:17:11,480 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: All of this failure, all of this self pity, all 341 00:17:15,560 --> 00:17:18,840 Speaker 1: of this heartbreak, it is all a gift and all 342 00:17:18,920 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: your job is is to calibrate yourself to be able 343 00:17:21,840 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: to take that gift and turn into something else. And 344 00:17:24,480 --> 00:17:27,359 Speaker 1: it's brutal, but it was true. I think there was 345 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 1: a kind of way. I think it's often with our parents. 346 00:17:30,119 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: It could have been more kindly offered, but it is 347 00:17:33,040 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: all a gift. 348 00:17:34,119 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 2: I agree with that. I think that you have to 349 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 2: be able to. 350 00:17:38,760 --> 00:17:58,359 Speaker 1: Adapt what relationship, real or fictionalized, defines love for you. 351 00:17:59,160 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 2: Have you ever seen a film Cold War? Oh? 352 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:02,240 Speaker 3: Yeah? 353 00:18:02,920 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 2: Cold War for me is the love story that I 354 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 2: think is the one that struck me as being the 355 00:18:08,520 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 2: one that I find like most romantic, despite the fact 356 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 2: that it's incredibly dark and sad. In case people haven't 357 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,800 Speaker 2: seen Cold War, it's a Polish film about the Cold 358 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:20,719 Speaker 2: War from the forties to the sixties, and it's this couple. 359 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:22,399 Speaker 2: They sort of fall in love and I believe that 360 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:25,359 Speaker 2: he's a bandleader and she's a singer, or maybe he's 361 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:27,399 Speaker 2: just a musician and she's a singer. I don't remember, 362 00:18:27,440 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 2: but they fall in love and they decide one day 363 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 2: that they're going to run away to West Berlin and 364 00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:36,879 Speaker 2: I think they're doing a show in East Berlin, and 365 00:18:36,880 --> 00:18:39,000 Speaker 2: they decide they're going to flee to West Berlin, and 366 00:18:39,880 --> 00:18:42,440 Speaker 2: that night when he decides to flee, she doesn't show up, 367 00:18:42,480 --> 00:18:44,479 Speaker 2: and so he tries to go by himself, and I 368 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:47,480 Speaker 2: believe he gets conn I can't remember. But anyway, circumstance 369 00:18:47,720 --> 00:18:50,240 Speaker 2: and time takes them apart and they come back together, 370 00:18:50,359 --> 00:18:52,360 Speaker 2: and then time takes them apart again when they find 371 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,440 Speaker 2: each other another time. You know, they are both in relationships. 372 00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,639 Speaker 2: She's now married, he's got a new woman that he's dating. 373 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,560 Speaker 2: But then they meet each other my hamp and stance 374 00:19:01,600 --> 00:19:04,000 Speaker 2: again and it's like he says to her, you are 375 00:19:04,000 --> 00:19:06,480 Speaker 2: the woman of my life. And despite the fact that 376 00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:08,800 Speaker 2: they haven't seen each other in like seven or eight years, 377 00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:11,600 Speaker 2: he's like, I still love you. And then they're taking 378 00:19:11,600 --> 00:19:13,840 Speaker 2: a part again. And I just think that that, to 379 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 2: me is like the endurance of that part of that 380 00:19:16,720 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 2: is appealing to me, because you know, I think that 381 00:19:21,600 --> 00:19:25,720 Speaker 2: when you join this industry that we are in, you 382 00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:28,479 Speaker 2: kind of almost literally are joining the circus. You know, 383 00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:31,639 Speaker 2: it's like you're on the road, you're traveling all the time, 384 00:19:31,760 --> 00:19:34,480 Speaker 2: you're not in one place for a very long and 385 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:37,639 Speaker 2: so you really need to sort of know that the 386 00:19:37,680 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 2: people in your life are going to still love you 387 00:19:39,880 --> 00:19:43,640 Speaker 2: even if you're gone for six months or two years, 388 00:19:43,680 --> 00:19:47,479 Speaker 2: Like you can come back and feel like, you know, 389 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:50,239 Speaker 2: you haven't forgotten about me, and I haven't forgotten about you, 390 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:52,359 Speaker 2: and like the love that we had still endures, and 391 00:19:52,400 --> 00:19:55,000 Speaker 2: the feelings that I had about you still endure. And 392 00:19:55,040 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 2: I think that that, to me has always felt like 393 00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 2: the most beautiful love story is that sort of like 394 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:03,240 Speaker 2: time and circumstance can come in and take you away 395 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 2: from each other, but despite the fact, like there's still 396 00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 2: a flame there. I just think that that's so beautiful. 397 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: I think it's Harboca something like that. I remember going 398 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: to see his movies as a kid in London and 399 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 1: Harville Pavlakowski. 400 00:20:17,760 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 2: Public Cloud Pavlakowski. 401 00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 1: Okay, butchering the Polish. Yeah, I love that. Love is 402 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:27,440 Speaker 1: so why I love the vendors as well. The love 403 00:20:27,480 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: that exists out of time, the love that exists out 404 00:20:31,000 --> 00:20:36,560 Speaker 1: of temporal restraint conditions, the idea truly what the meaning 405 00:20:36,680 --> 00:20:40,160 Speaker 1: for me of love is love it exists outside of 406 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: everything else or the conditions of the world. 407 00:20:42,680 --> 00:20:43,840 Speaker 3: I think that's really beautiful. 408 00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree with that, even though it is it 409 00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,919 Speaker 1: is impractical to not be married to the person that 410 00:20:50,000 --> 00:20:50,360 Speaker 1: you love. 411 00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think that that's the perfect summation of 412 00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:57,440 Speaker 2: it is that I think that's love is just impractical. 413 00:20:57,520 --> 00:21:00,639 Speaker 2: And I think that a lot of you know, the 414 00:21:00,680 --> 00:21:03,159 Speaker 2: reasons that sort of like people get in relationships or 415 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:07,680 Speaker 2: marriages so frequently are practical. It's like, well, this makes sense. 416 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 2: You know, this person is in close proximity to me, 417 00:21:10,520 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 2: we live in the same town, we go to the 418 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:13,120 Speaker 2: same church. 419 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 3: Like. 420 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:14,679 Speaker 2: I just think that there's a lot of sort of 421 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:17,119 Speaker 2: like calculations that people do where they're like, yeah, this 422 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:19,200 Speaker 2: makes sense, and this is why I'm going to get 423 00:21:19,240 --> 00:21:21,480 Speaker 2: married to this person. And I think that for me, 424 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:25,400 Speaker 2: sort of real love as I define it, is about impracticality. 425 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 2: It's like, yeah, I know that that doesn't make sense 426 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:30,040 Speaker 2: that I'm married to this person, but I still love 427 00:21:30,119 --> 00:21:32,679 Speaker 2: my boyfriend from eight years ago, right, But you know 428 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 2: that's because love is confusing and mysterious and impractical. 429 00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,400 Speaker 3: I agree. I agree. 430 00:21:39,960 --> 00:21:43,480 Speaker 1: I fell in love with Addison while completely and utterly 431 00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: heartbroken and shredded and ruined so much that I didn't 432 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 1: think that it was love until later, and then I 433 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:54,639 Speaker 1: realized that's exactly what it was the most impossible, the 434 00:21:54,680 --> 00:21:59,399 Speaker 1: most impractical, the most implausible version of actually loving someone. 435 00:21:59,640 --> 00:22:00,400 Speaker 2: Yeah. 436 00:22:00,440 --> 00:22:02,120 Speaker 3: God, I want to go back and watch that film there. 437 00:22:02,280 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 2: It's amazing. Highly recommend it. Yeah, it's so beautiful. 438 00:22:09,720 --> 00:22:11,760 Speaker 3: What question would you most like answered? 439 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 2: That's a good one. What do people say to this one? 440 00:22:14,560 --> 00:22:16,520 Speaker 3: I'll tell you. I'll tell you a couple of things. 441 00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:17,439 Speaker 2: Yeah. 442 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:19,840 Speaker 1: A lot of people want to know what happens when 443 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:22,760 Speaker 1: you die, and they want to know of the people 444 00:22:22,800 --> 00:22:26,440 Speaker 1: that they love if they will see them again. That's 445 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 1: probably the number one. The second is Aliens m h. 446 00:22:31,440 --> 00:22:34,479 Speaker 1: And my absolute favorite of all time is Jamila Jamil, 447 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:38,360 Speaker 1: who said, does anybody really enjoy reverse Cowgirl? 448 00:22:42,440 --> 00:22:43,960 Speaker 2: I've worked with Jamila that sounds like. 449 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, a good place together. It made me laugh so hard. 450 00:22:49,800 --> 00:22:52,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I feel the way about having sex in 451 00:22:52,760 --> 00:22:54,800 Speaker 2: the shower. I don't think anybody actually. 452 00:22:54,720 --> 00:22:57,280 Speaker 1: By the way, I said that on a list of 453 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 1: things that I love and things that I hate, and 454 00:22:59,600 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: I was like, the idea of sex in the shower 455 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:03,320 Speaker 1: versus sex in the. 456 00:23:03,280 --> 00:23:07,320 Speaker 3: Shower, Yeah, exactly fucking rotten. I got a harsh response. 457 00:23:07,359 --> 00:23:09,440 Speaker 3: But it's a way to do it's. 458 00:23:09,240 --> 00:23:12,000 Speaker 2: Not fun, it's not and you think it's going to be, 459 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:12,439 Speaker 2: but it's not. 460 00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,800 Speaker 3: It sounds fun. Well, you don't have to I know. 461 00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:18,000 Speaker 2: I'm going to answer it. I was worried that everybody 462 00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,520 Speaker 2: just must say the same thing, so I would, I think, 463 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 2: alter the what happens when we die? And this is 464 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:26,280 Speaker 2: going to be unfair because it's going to be two questions. 465 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 2: It is is God real? And if so, what does 466 00:23:31,560 --> 00:23:34,159 Speaker 2: God want from us? I just think that there's just 467 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 2: so much tumultuousness these days, and I think that we're 468 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:41,440 Speaker 2: in a crisis right now as human beings. I think 469 00:23:41,440 --> 00:23:43,800 Speaker 2: we're in a crisis of meaning. Do you know the 470 00:23:43,840 --> 00:23:45,960 Speaker 2: third place problem? Have you? Have you heard about this? 471 00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:46,679 Speaker 1: No? 472 00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 3: What is it? 473 00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:51,439 Speaker 2: So? The third place problem is the world used to 474 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:53,520 Speaker 2: be filled with all these third places, right And I 475 00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:57,400 Speaker 2: think that England beats America this way because I think 476 00:23:57,440 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 2: you still have like pub culture, you know, which is 477 00:23:59,760 --> 00:24:02,040 Speaker 2: sort of like a very real thing still there. But 478 00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:03,800 Speaker 2: in America the third place was like, well, your first 479 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 2: place is home, your second places work, and then the 480 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,359 Speaker 2: third place used to be like church or your bowling league, 481 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 2: Like what are these places that you're going to to 482 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 2: actually commune with other people that have nothing to do? 483 00:24:17,560 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 2: With your family life at home or your work life. 484 00:24:20,720 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 2: And there used to be sort of like all of 485 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,040 Speaker 2: these things that people participated in. They used to go 486 00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:27,520 Speaker 2: to church a lot, They used to be part of 487 00:24:27,560 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 2: these social groups. 488 00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, be part of a community exactly. 489 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:34,679 Speaker 2: And so now we're seeing all of these kinds of 490 00:24:34,680 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 2: social groups contract. Church attendance's way down. People don't even 491 00:24:38,440 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 2: really go into the office anymore. So like the first 492 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,600 Speaker 2: and second place, it's just one. Your home is your office, 493 00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:46,360 Speaker 2: So you're not even getting out to go hang out 494 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:49,160 Speaker 2: in an office with your coworkers anymore. And so we're 495 00:24:49,160 --> 00:24:51,840 Speaker 2: in this place where I think people have really lost 496 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:57,080 Speaker 2: faith and institutions, they've lost hope in the future. Young 497 00:24:57,119 --> 00:24:59,720 Speaker 2: people are seeing like the world literally melt. I just 498 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,800 Speaker 2: think that we've reached this place where people have lost 499 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:06,320 Speaker 2: faith in everything and lost meaning. There's no meaning for 500 00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,520 Speaker 2: people and things anymore. And so I think that once 501 00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,960 Speaker 2: we have that, especially in America, people don't even believe 502 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,439 Speaker 2: in America anymore. It's like what even is that, Like 503 00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,160 Speaker 2: we don't even believe in the country as a sort 504 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:19,399 Speaker 2: of like whole anymore. And we look at people as 505 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 2: saying like, well, we've started dividing it into like red 506 00:25:21,960 --> 00:25:24,040 Speaker 2: states and blue states as opposed to just sort of 507 00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 2: like an entire continuous nation. And so I think that 508 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 2: for me, it's like I just really want something to 509 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,119 Speaker 2: give people meaning again. I'm hopeful that we can find 510 00:25:34,200 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 2: some sort of semblance of national or sort of like 511 00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,639 Speaker 2: global meaning and global sort of like hope. 512 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:41,720 Speaker 1: Is that why you'd like to know if God Israel? 513 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:44,280 Speaker 1: Because God could potentially be that meaning? 514 00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:46,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, because I'm just like, what do you want from us? 515 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,760 Speaker 2: Man or woman? What are you really trying to do here? 516 00:25:49,880 --> 00:25:51,800 Speaker 2: Even if it's just like, well, it's just an experiment 517 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 2: to see if you guys can get along, Like even 518 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,440 Speaker 2: that is a semblance of a way forward. 519 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,560 Speaker 1: It's really interesting is that idea of like, without cultural splicity, 520 00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:08,480 Speaker 1: you lose meaning that when you literally filay out a 521 00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,040 Speaker 1: version of coming together, whether that's literal or figurative, you 522 00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:13,120 Speaker 1: do you lose meaning. 523 00:26:13,160 --> 00:26:15,360 Speaker 3: The center will not hold absolutely. 524 00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:18,400 Speaker 2: And I think that that, to me has become one 525 00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:21,800 Speaker 2: of our primary difficulties as a species these days, is 526 00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 2: just I agree, total lack of meaning. 527 00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 1: I agree, And you know what my little microcosmic observance, 528 00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:32,359 Speaker 1: I mean, from where I live, moving into a place 529 00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,880 Speaker 1: that has community. You've been to where I live in California, 530 00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,880 Speaker 1: and that that little enclave, the way in which we 531 00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,760 Speaker 1: check in on each other, and you do your elderly 532 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: neighbors shopping, and there are kids who are the naughty 533 00:26:48,080 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: kids and the people that drive too fast, and everybody 534 00:26:51,840 --> 00:26:57,119 Speaker 1: connects around these things, good, bad and different, annoying, happy, joyful. 535 00:26:57,640 --> 00:27:02,240 Speaker 1: The weddings, the funerals, the memorial the walks, the sadness, 536 00:27:02,240 --> 00:27:04,480 Speaker 1: the seeing somebody crying in the street, all of that 537 00:27:04,600 --> 00:27:09,960 Speaker 1: stuff has refashioned me. Just my being in that community 538 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: for the twenty four years that I've lived there. It 539 00:27:13,480 --> 00:27:16,200 Speaker 1: radically changed the way that I interacted with the rest 540 00:27:16,240 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: of the world. It radically changed the way that I 541 00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,200 Speaker 1: was alone in a hotel room in a foreign city, 542 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,680 Speaker 1: which has always been sort of overwhelming and other and strange. 543 00:27:24,720 --> 00:27:29,320 Speaker 1: And I've long since thought that community building is the 544 00:27:29,359 --> 00:27:33,240 Speaker 1: way in which we get back that, not dismantling communities 545 00:27:33,240 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 1: because of our differences, but rather the commonality of living 546 00:27:36,760 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 1: next door to someone, even if you don't agree with 547 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,560 Speaker 1: their politics. There is something I don't know. I chat 548 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 1: with my neighbor who's a Trump supporter, about our kids 549 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:49,719 Speaker 1: and swimming and how cold the ocean is and the 550 00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: weather and wather they'll be waves, and we have a 551 00:27:52,640 --> 00:27:57,280 Speaker 1: really cordial relationship that makes me feel like there is 552 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,680 Speaker 1: a way of communicating that we've just forgotten about. 553 00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 2: Absolutely, and there's purpose in that. You found purpose in 554 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,080 Speaker 2: building a community and taking care of others and seeing 555 00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:08,720 Speaker 2: the good and sort of like your neighbor. I think 556 00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:12,199 Speaker 2: that that, to me, that's all we really need. You know, 557 00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,520 Speaker 2: it's not like curing cancer. It's like that's all just 558 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,159 Speaker 2: like just a small semblance of something that's like, you 559 00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 2: know what, here's what you can do in your life 560 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,240 Speaker 2: that takes you out of your own head, that forces 561 00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 2: you to think about others for a second, that forces 562 00:28:24,680 --> 00:28:26,400 Speaker 2: you to sort of like leave your home and sort 563 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 2: of like participate in something that to me is all 564 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,760 Speaker 2: it's just small adjustments. But we've all become so addicted 565 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 2: to the internet and so closed off from the rest 566 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 2: of the world that it becomes difficult to see outside 567 00:28:37,520 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 2: of your own brain sometimes. 568 00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,120 Speaker 1: And yet it actually is actionable, like so much is 569 00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:46,320 Speaker 1: not shit that we can change, and that actually it 570 00:28:46,360 --> 00:28:49,680 Speaker 1: actually is something that you can go, Yeah, maybe I'm 571 00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,840 Speaker 1: going to go and I don't know, knock on my 572 00:28:51,840 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: neighbor's door. I think there's kind of incremental ways. 573 00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:56,880 Speaker 3: Yeah, out of the isolation. 574 00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:58,240 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 575 00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:06,480 Speaker 1: Can you tell me what person, place, or experience most 576 00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:07,520 Speaker 1: altered your life. 577 00:29:08,080 --> 00:29:12,400 Speaker 2: My father, hands down. He's still alive, he's still with us, 578 00:29:12,640 --> 00:29:15,040 Speaker 2: and he has by far had the most profound impact 579 00:29:15,080 --> 00:29:19,000 Speaker 2: on me, as I've in great ways in ways that 580 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,600 Speaker 2: I really dislike about myself. And you know, much of 581 00:29:21,600 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 2: what I've been trying to undo in therapy is lessons 582 00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:26,160 Speaker 2: than my father taught me, not just sort of like 583 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 2: the self criticism and stuff and the demanding nature that 584 00:29:28,680 --> 00:29:31,800 Speaker 2: he had over us, but also the way that I 585 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 2: learned to be a man from my father was my 586 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,760 Speaker 2: dad was very you know, being a man meant being 587 00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:44,840 Speaker 2: very stoic, very emotionally distant. You never let anybody see 588 00:29:44,880 --> 00:29:47,560 Speaker 2: you cry, You never let anybody see that you're having 589 00:29:47,640 --> 00:29:50,080 Speaker 2: a bad day. Nobody wants to hear you complain, like 590 00:29:50,200 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 2: suffer in silence and move forward. And my dad was 591 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 2: a Vietnam veteran, and so you know, he did two 592 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:00,480 Speaker 2: tours in Vietnam and came back with pretty bad pe PTSD. 593 00:30:01,040 --> 00:30:03,920 Speaker 2: But they didn't really have a vocabulary for PTSD. Then 594 00:30:04,080 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 2: nobody even really knew what that was. They called it 595 00:30:06,240 --> 00:30:08,959 Speaker 2: shell shock, you know, And so he came back and 596 00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 2: just white knuckled it for decades. And so growing up 597 00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 2: I just there was a real emotional distance with my 598 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 2: father and I never saw him cry. He never spoke 599 00:30:18,560 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 2: about his emotions. Really, it was always closed off. And 600 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 2: so I that sort of led to me growing up 601 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 2: that way, and I, as I said earlier, I was 602 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 2: just very emotionally shut off, tamped everything down until it 603 00:30:31,160 --> 00:30:34,480 Speaker 2: would explode sometimes in sort of like bouts of rage. 604 00:30:34,520 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 2: And that to me has been the sort of like 605 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:40,480 Speaker 2: biggest unburdening of my life is when I learned to 606 00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 2: be open and honest with people and just sort of 607 00:30:42,400 --> 00:30:44,480 Speaker 2: tell people how I was actually feeling. Like the hardest 608 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 2: thing in the world for me, a thing that I 609 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:50,600 Speaker 2: could have never said ever, even five years ago, was 610 00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 2: you hurt my feelings, Like saying to somebody like you 611 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:56,000 Speaker 2: hurt saying something as simple as like that hurt my feelings, 612 00:30:56,800 --> 00:30:59,240 Speaker 2: because I would have been like, a man doesn't say that. 613 00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 2: Man says you hurt my feelings, because that's expressing some 614 00:31:04,040 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 2: sense of vulnerability. 615 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,480 Speaker 1: Just being able to do it differently, whether it's recognizing 616 00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,680 Speaker 1: that the voice in your head is your father's voice 617 00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,920 Speaker 1: and allowing that to peter out, or being able to 618 00:31:14,920 --> 00:31:17,840 Speaker 1: say to someone that hurt my feelings. Do you feel 619 00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:21,080 Speaker 1: triumphants the wrong word? But do you feel that you 620 00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:22,600 Speaker 1: have carved a different pathway? 621 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 2: Yeah? Oh yeah. And again I'm really happy that I 622 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:27,800 Speaker 2: did it when I did, because I think that it 623 00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:29,680 Speaker 2: could have gone very poorly. It could have gone the 624 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:31,520 Speaker 2: other way if I didn't learn that. Like I said, 625 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:33,800 Speaker 2: I really do think that I was going to explode 626 00:31:33,800 --> 00:31:38,719 Speaker 2: my life in some way. Yeah. I feel of every 627 00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:43,760 Speaker 2: professional accomplishment I've had in the past six years, nothing 628 00:31:44,040 --> 00:31:50,160 Speaker 2: is more valuable to me than the emotional strides that 629 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,600 Speaker 2: I've made. It's the biggest growth and most important growth 630 00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 2: I've ever had in my life. And yeah, I would 631 00:31:56,680 --> 00:31:58,920 Speaker 2: say triumphant is the right word. It does feel like 632 00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:02,600 Speaker 2: because you know, people can't get out of their own 633 00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:04,480 Speaker 2: way sometimes. And I will say, the thing that I 634 00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 2: think is one of the most impressive things about my 635 00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:12,200 Speaker 2: father is that, at the age of eighty one, last year, 636 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 2: I finally got him to start going to therapy. 637 00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:14,560 Speaker 3: Wow. 638 00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 2: And so he now goes to therapy as an eighty 639 00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 2: two year old man and is trying to work through 640 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:22,440 Speaker 2: the stuff that he didn't work through for the previous 641 00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:24,520 Speaker 2: sixty years of his life. And I think that it's 642 00:32:24,560 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 2: so hard. It is so hard to admit that you 643 00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,480 Speaker 2: are going through some stuff and that you need some help. 644 00:32:31,520 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 2: That is a very very difficult to admit. It's very 645 00:32:34,640 --> 00:32:38,440 Speaker 2: difficult to admit, especially for men. It's especially difficult for 646 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,440 Speaker 2: black men to admit this. And it's especially if difficult 647 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:45,440 Speaker 2: for a black man born in the nineteen forties to say, like, 648 00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,000 Speaker 2: I need some emotional help and I'm not doing well. 649 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:51,480 Speaker 2: And so I am just so incredibly proud of him, 650 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,360 Speaker 2: and he's told me that it's helping him, and so 651 00:32:54,600 --> 00:32:56,800 Speaker 2: it does feel triumphant. I think that it is. It's 652 00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 2: a triumphant thing for somebody to be able to do that. 653 00:32:59,400 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 3: I agree. 654 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:03,760 Speaker 1: And at eighty two, like my mom had started a 655 00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:07,200 Speaker 1: new business a couple of weeks before she died, Like 656 00:33:07,680 --> 00:33:12,000 Speaker 1: I think the idea of time running out, there's always time. 657 00:33:12,200 --> 00:33:15,920 Speaker 1: There's always time, absolutely till that very last moment. 658 00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 3: Okay, what would be your last meal? 659 00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:40,200 Speaker 2: Martini? Two glasses, that should be a Caesar salad, and 660 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:41,200 Speaker 2: a seafood tower. 661 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:46,720 Speaker 1: Now do you like the grandiosity of the Seafood Tower 662 00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:49,320 Speaker 1: as much as the seafood because. 663 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:53,920 Speaker 2: I do, yes. I think that more more is more. 664 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 2: I think there should be more spectacle in our food, 665 00:33:57,200 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 2: in our di I like a table side caesar where 666 00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 2: they make the dressing in front of you with the 667 00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:06,040 Speaker 2: egg and the thing. I like when they flombay things 668 00:34:06,080 --> 00:34:08,319 Speaker 2: next to the table and they fire like. I like that. 669 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,760 Speaker 1: I like it when they roll trolleys and it clackety 670 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:14,320 Speaker 1: can't the restaurant and there's gonna be a show exactly. 671 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,040 Speaker 2: That is my favorite thing. And so I like the 672 00:34:17,080 --> 00:34:19,799 Speaker 2: grandiosity of the Seafood Tower while also just sort of 673 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:22,879 Speaker 2: like really loving seafood. There's like a decadence to it. 674 00:34:22,880 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 2: It's both elegant but also you're tearing tails off with 675 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:29,720 Speaker 2: your bare hands and stuff, so it gets kind of messy, 676 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,360 Speaker 2: and like it's just it's a good meal to share. 677 00:34:32,560 --> 00:34:34,560 Speaker 2: I think that every meal it's really fun to be 678 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,760 Speaker 2: there with a group of people and be sharing that. 679 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:38,160 Speaker 2: That's my go to God. 680 00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:39,280 Speaker 3: That's so good. 681 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:43,000 Speaker 1: And I'm going to tell you here in London they're 682 00:34:43,000 --> 00:34:45,839 Speaker 1: not afraid of a spectacle. Eye witnessed the Seafood Tower 683 00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,000 Speaker 1: the other day, complete with dripping seaweed and like it was. 684 00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,320 Speaker 1: It was immense, and there was a tear that had 685 00:34:53,480 --> 00:34:57,560 Speaker 1: two live crabs on it and they had rubber bands 686 00:34:57,600 --> 00:34:58,040 Speaker 1: on that. 687 00:34:58,200 --> 00:35:00,839 Speaker 3: It just was awful. It was like the circus at. 688 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 1: The table, and I wanted to free the crabs and 689 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,800 Speaker 1: I wanted to grab them, get them down the toilet 690 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:10,920 Speaker 1: out into the world. And this now felt like I 691 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,640 Speaker 1: was back in Dekenzie in London with this guy. He 692 00:35:13,719 --> 00:35:16,400 Speaker 1: got out a cigar and he took the rubber band 693 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: off the crab claw, and I think he wanted His 694 00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:22,120 Speaker 1: idea was that the crab was going to cut the 695 00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 1: cigar for him, but the crab just took the cigar. 696 00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,120 Speaker 1: And so now you've got a crab with a cigar, 697 00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: and now the guy's trying to light the cigar in 698 00:35:31,040 --> 00:35:33,520 Speaker 1: the restaurant with all the people and like the weight. 699 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 1: Now people are looking, oh no, this is going very bad. 700 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 3: What's going to happen? 701 00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:40,960 Speaker 1: And it was so funny because the waiters and the 702 00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: staff who'd been all with the pomp and the s 703 00:35:42,640 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 1: arema and the whole thing, they literally had to come 704 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,960 Speaker 1: and kind of confiscate everything off this guy, like no 705 00:35:47,080 --> 00:35:49,359 Speaker 1: cigar get rid of the light up, put the rubber band, 706 00:35:49,400 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: no crabs for you, goodbye? 707 00:35:51,640 --> 00:35:52,680 Speaker 3: They shut it down. 708 00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:53,480 Speaker 2: I love it. 709 00:35:53,480 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 3: It was for about thirty seconds. It was absolutely mayhem. 710 00:35:56,840 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 2: That may have been my father. Actually I should check 711 00:35:58,680 --> 00:36:03,600 Speaker 2: and see if he's dad. 712 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:04,360 Speaker 3: Were you in London? 713 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:07,759 Speaker 2: Oh my god, I could see him doing that. 714 00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:13,760 Speaker 3: In your life. 715 00:36:13,840 --> 00:36:17,200 Speaker 1: Can you tell me something that has grown out of 716 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:18,440 Speaker 1: a personal disaster? 717 00:36:19,000 --> 00:36:24,719 Speaker 2: Yes, So in my film. There's a scene in the 718 00:36:24,719 --> 00:36:28,600 Speaker 2: film in American Fiction where two brothers are speaking and 719 00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:31,279 Speaker 2: one of them tells his older brother, you know, this 720 00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:33,120 Speaker 2: brother has just come out of the closet is gay. 721 00:36:33,200 --> 00:36:35,920 Speaker 2: He's in his mid forties, he's married with children, and 722 00:36:36,000 --> 00:36:38,200 Speaker 2: he's finally decided to come out as a gay man. 723 00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:41,759 Speaker 2: And so he's really exploring his new life. And their 724 00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:44,600 Speaker 2: father has died about seven years prior, and so he 725 00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 2: says to his brother, I've been thinking of a lot 726 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:49,719 Speaker 2: about how dad died not knowing that I'm gay, and 727 00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,719 Speaker 2: it makes me really sad that he never knew the 728 00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,560 Speaker 2: sort of fullness of me. And his brother says, well, 729 00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,400 Speaker 2: what if he had known and rejected you for it? 730 00:36:56,440 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 2: And he says, well, I wouldn't have cared, because he 731 00:36:58,120 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 2: would at least know me. And that's what's important and 732 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:05,960 Speaker 2: that I put in there, because that is a speech 733 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,439 Speaker 2: that I wish I would have given myself about my mother. 734 00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:13,720 Speaker 2: And I'm not gay, but my mother died not knowing 735 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,399 Speaker 2: the fullness of me. There was stuff that I kept 736 00:37:16,400 --> 00:37:18,880 Speaker 2: from her. I have tattoos, and my mother didn't know 737 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 2: that I had tattoos until about three or four months 738 00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:23,880 Speaker 2: before she died, because I was so nervous because I 739 00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:26,640 Speaker 2: knew that she would disapprove and she didn't love tattoos, 740 00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,319 Speaker 2: and so I was so nervous about showing her that 741 00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:34,040 Speaker 2: I had tattoos. And I finally showed her, and you know, 742 00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:38,120 Speaker 2: she didn't care. Of course she didn't care. She's unconditional love. 743 00:37:38,160 --> 00:37:41,200 Speaker 2: Because my mother was disowned by her family for marrying 744 00:37:41,200 --> 00:37:44,839 Speaker 2: my father because he's black, and so I never met 745 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:47,319 Speaker 2: my grandparents. My mother didn't speak to her father until 746 00:37:47,320 --> 00:37:49,359 Speaker 2: he was on his deathbed, and she said to me once, 747 00:37:49,360 --> 00:37:51,319 Speaker 2: she said, I've tried to think of something that you 748 00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:53,759 Speaker 2: could do that would make me not want to talk 749 00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 2: to you anymore. She said, I've thought of you murdering people, 750 00:37:56,719 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 2: and like the idea of like you doing even the 751 00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 2: world things in the world. There was still no way 752 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:04,879 Speaker 2: that I could ever stop talking to you or stop 753 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,439 Speaker 2: loving you, she said, even in that, and she said, 754 00:38:07,520 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 2: especially not for marrying somebody with a different skin color 755 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:14,239 Speaker 2: than you. But that didn't penetrate. And I still hit 756 00:38:14,320 --> 00:38:16,279 Speaker 2: a lot of myself from my mom, because I hit 757 00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:18,080 Speaker 2: a lot of things from everybody. As I said, I 758 00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 2: was a stoic and I didn't talk about my emotions 759 00:38:20,239 --> 00:38:23,320 Speaker 2: and I sort of like never actually grappled with my feelings, 760 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 2: and so that to me, you know, it took me 761 00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,120 Speaker 2: a while. She died in twenty sixteen. I started really 762 00:38:30,120 --> 00:38:32,799 Speaker 2: taking care of my mental health in twenty eighteen, and 763 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,360 Speaker 2: one of the things that I thought about was the 764 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,000 Speaker 2: fact that I was encountering all these new emotions and 765 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:42,840 Speaker 2: I was learning all this stuff about myself and learning 766 00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 2: why I did the things that I did, like what 767 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:48,400 Speaker 2: made me feel the way that I felt. And it 768 00:38:48,520 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 2: was like wonderful because I was like, oh my God, 769 00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:52,799 Speaker 2: like I said, it's like a renaissance. Like I'm like, 770 00:38:52,880 --> 00:38:54,879 Speaker 2: my mind is open to all these new things about 771 00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:57,879 Speaker 2: myself that I'd never considered before. My relationship with my father, 772 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:00,560 Speaker 2: my relationship with my siblings, like all of this stuff 773 00:39:00,640 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 2: was sort of all of a sudden, It felt like 774 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 2: I was firing on all cylinders and learning all this 775 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:09,760 Speaker 2: stuff about myself, and it was exciting. But then I 776 00:39:09,840 --> 00:39:15,759 Speaker 2: remember being overwhelmed at this moment in time where I realized, like, 777 00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:18,160 Speaker 2: but my mom's never going to know this version of me. 778 00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,200 Speaker 2: She's only going to know the guy that was like 779 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:28,239 Speaker 2: emotionally closed off and withholding, and she's never going to 780 00:39:28,360 --> 00:39:31,480 Speaker 2: know me at my fullest. And that made me so sad. 781 00:39:32,080 --> 00:39:34,200 Speaker 2: It made me so sad that I hadn't done the 782 00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,920 Speaker 2: work early enough to let her see me at my best, 783 00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:40,600 Speaker 2: to allow her to see me at a time when 784 00:39:40,640 --> 00:39:43,440 Speaker 2: I feel like I've finally become the person that I've 785 00:39:43,440 --> 00:39:45,320 Speaker 2: been trying to be my whole life, you know, and 786 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,759 Speaker 2: it took me forty two years to get here. But 787 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:52,360 Speaker 2: she's never going to see it, and it makes me sad. 788 00:39:52,600 --> 00:39:55,319 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know what as a mother, As a mother, 789 00:39:55,600 --> 00:39:58,840 Speaker 1: I can say, without a shadow of debt, the fact 790 00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:02,280 Speaker 1: that you did it at all is all that matters. 791 00:40:03,440 --> 00:40:06,640 Speaker 1: She would not want you burdened with the idea that 792 00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:09,799 Speaker 1: she had to know that you did that. Yeah, she 793 00:40:09,840 --> 00:40:10,960 Speaker 1: would just want you to do it. 794 00:40:11,440 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's the best way to look at it. And 795 00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 2: I obviously get very emotional about it, but you know what, 796 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:18,759 Speaker 2: the thing that you're saying is true because it is like, yeah, 797 00:40:18,800 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 2: as I said, I've never felt happier, I've never felt better. 798 00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,239 Speaker 2: And it makes sense that you know that she was 799 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,800 Speaker 2: the catalyst for that because it's what she always wanted 800 00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,600 Speaker 2: for me. You know. It's like looking back, like I said, 801 00:40:29,640 --> 00:40:31,719 Speaker 2: like she told me when I was nineteen, I think 802 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:35,360 Speaker 2: you have depression, and eventually I sort of really forced 803 00:40:35,360 --> 00:40:38,400 Speaker 2: myself to deal with that and encounter that. So she 804 00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,200 Speaker 2: was the catalyst in many ways, and so it was 805 00:40:41,360 --> 00:40:43,360 Speaker 2: tragedy but it led to triumph. 806 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, well what a place to wind up. 807 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 2: I love this. This is great. 808 00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:54,200 Speaker 1: I can't thank you enough for your your candor and 809 00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:55,359 Speaker 1: your kindness. 810 00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 2: It's such an honor, it's such an honestly. 811 00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,800 Speaker 1: It's it's so brilliant to hear it, like I always 812 00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:02,839 Speaker 1: feel that, like to feel the shared space with someone 813 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:05,319 Speaker 1: that you're speaking to, like the overlaps. Like Addison loves 814 00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:09,160 Speaker 1: these ven diagrams. He's always making ven diagrams of our relationship. 815 00:41:10,000 --> 00:41:11,680 Speaker 3: What is him and what is me? 816 00:41:11,840 --> 00:41:15,200 Speaker 1: And what is our overlap, but it's so amazing when 817 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:18,719 Speaker 1: talking to people like you who trigger thoughts that I 818 00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:21,160 Speaker 1: know I'll be thinking about this for a while. I 819 00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,360 Speaker 1: know I'll revisit it and ponder things that you've said, 820 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:25,920 Speaker 1: and it's so amazing. 821 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,719 Speaker 3: So thank you, so so much. 822 00:41:28,000 --> 00:41:29,799 Speaker 2: It's a true one. It's been a real delight to 823 00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:31,840 Speaker 2: speak with you. You're one of my favorite people that 824 00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:36,080 Speaker 2: I've met in recent years. You're very thoughtful and honest, 825 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 2: and I could just talk to you all day. 826 00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:41,040 Speaker 3: So thank you, Thank you. Courd. 827 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: Mini Questions is hosted and written by Me Mini Driver, 828 00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: Executive produced by Me and Aaron Kaufman, with production support 829 00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:56,640 Speaker 1: from Jennifer Bassett, Zoe Denkler and Ali Perry. The theme 830 00:41:56,719 --> 00:42:01,440 Speaker 1: music is also by Me and additional music by Aaron Kaufman. 831 00:42:02,080 --> 00:42:07,680 Speaker 1: Special banks to Jim Nikolay Addison, O'Day, Henry Driver, Lisa Castello, 832 00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:11,719 Speaker 1: Annik Oppenheim, a, Nique Muller and Annette Wolfe, A W 833 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:16,520 Speaker 1: K p R. Will Pearson, Nikki Etor, Morgan Levoy and 834 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:18,280 Speaker 1: Mangesh her Ticke Adore