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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Missed in History Class from dot Com. Hello,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to the podcast. I am Tracy V. Wilson

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Speaker 1: and I'm Holly Frying. Today we have a real treat.

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Speaker 1: Earlier this year, I met Dr Katherine Sharp Landic. She's

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Speaker 1: an Associate professor of history and director of the Pioneers

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Speaker 1: Oral History Project at Texas Women's University, and she is

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Speaker 1: also a private pilot. Kate has spent about twenty years

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Speaker 1: studying and writing about the Women Air Force Service Pilots

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Speaker 1: or WASP of World War Two, and she serves as

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Speaker 1: vice president of the Wing Tip to Wingtip Association, which

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Speaker 1: is the WASP legacy organization. The Women Air Force Service

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Speaker 1: Pilots were essentially an experiment that set out to determine

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Speaker 1: whether women could fly on military aircraft, while also assigning domestic,

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Speaker 1: non combat flying duties to women to free up desperately

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Speaker 1: needed male pilots in the United States Armed forces. The

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Speaker 1: WASP actually started out as two different groups that were

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Speaker 1: formed in nineteen two. One was the Women's Auxiliary Ferrying

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Speaker 1: Squadrons or WAFTS, which was led by Nancy Harkness Love

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Speaker 1: and made up of women who were already highly experienced

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Speaker 1: as pilots. The other was the Women's Flying Training Detachment,

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Speaker 1: led by Jacqueline Cochrane, which was set up to train

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Speaker 1: women to pilot military aircraft. The two were merged to

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Speaker 1: form the Women Air Force Service Pilots on August five

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Speaker 1: of nineteen forty three. During their service, these women flew

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Speaker 1: seventy seven different types of aircraft more than sixty million miles,

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Speaker 1: all within the continental United States. We've gotten a few

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Speaker 1: requests to talk about the Loft and Hate really graciously

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Speaker 1: agreed to be on the show to talk about them.

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Speaker 1: During our conversation, she had so many wonderful stories and

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Speaker 1: insights to share that we're going to divide the interview

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Speaker 1: into two parts. Today, we are going to be talking

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Speaker 1: about how the WASP were formed, how they were trained,

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Speaker 1: and what life was like for women who, even though

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Speaker 1: they were civilians, were really doing military work during wartime.

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Speaker 1: Then in the next episode, we will talk about their

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Speaker 1: service during the war, and then what happened after the

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Speaker 1: waste program was disbanded. So we're going to start Tracy's

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Speaker 1: interview with some questions on how women were becoming experienced

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Speaker 1: pilots in the nineteen thirties and nineteen forties. So today

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Speaker 1: I'm talking to Katherine sharp Landeck, who has spent a

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Speaker 1: lot of her career working with and studying the women

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Speaker 1: Air Force Service pilots, and so she seemed like a

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Speaker 1: perfect person to help us, uh learn about these people

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Speaker 1: who some folks have asked us to talk about on

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Speaker 1: the show. Uh. So you've already heard from Holly and

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Speaker 1: me kind of the basics. So what The first thing

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Speaker 1: that I wanted to ask you was the first women

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Speaker 1: who flew for the Women's Auxiliary Flying Squadron were already

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Speaker 1: experienced pilots, but there weren't really women flying for commercial

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Speaker 1: airlines at this point. Where were the women who started

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Speaker 1: out already experien rience to fly airplanes? Where were they

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Speaker 1: getting that experience? Right? I think this is a great

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Speaker 1: question because you're quite right there the airlines were not

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Speaker 1: hiring women. They there weren't that many airline jobs, and

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Speaker 1: um one woman had been hired, Helen Ritchie in the

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Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, and it was more for publicity than anything else.

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Speaker 1: So these women didn't learn to fly the airlines or

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Speaker 1: get any experience, and they had a ton of flight

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Speaker 1: time they averaged over hours. The first thirteen women, so

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Speaker 1: that's a lot of flight time. Many of these women

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Speaker 1: had money because flying was expensive at the time, so

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Speaker 1: they were able to just buy flying time. But a

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Speaker 1: lot of them were able to work as flight instructors,

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Speaker 1: which was a really common job for women. It was

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Speaker 1: not a threatening job because women flight instructors were essentially teachers,

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Speaker 1: just teaching flying, so it was a little different, you know,

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Speaker 1: very similar and comfortable for people. Several of the women

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Speaker 1: did air shows and air races, uh so they were

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Speaker 1: getting their flying experience that way. Nancy Loves who ended

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Speaker 1: up leading the West those early women pilots, she actually

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Speaker 1: worked for an airplane manufacturer and demonstrated the plane. That

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Speaker 1: was one job the woman could do is work in

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Speaker 1: the in the sales side of the airplanes, because then

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Speaker 1: they could demonstrate the plane, you know, go out and

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Speaker 1: show shows potential buyers how to fly it. And the

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Speaker 1: thought was that they will look, our plane is so

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Speaker 1: easy to fly, even a woman can fly it. Uh

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Speaker 1: So they were yeah so. Uh so Nancy was able

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Speaker 1: to get a lot of flight time that way. So

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Speaker 1: it really depended on the woman. They all just got

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Speaker 1: it as they could get it. For these early women well,

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Speaker 1: and there were also women who paid for their own

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Speaker 1: training so that they could join the service. Right. Yeah, so, um,

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Speaker 1: that's that's a real distinction between these earliest women and

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Speaker 1: then the women who went through the training program. But

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Speaker 1: because those early women had so much flight time, but

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Speaker 1: all the women that joined the WASP had to have

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Speaker 1: at least thirty five hours. It started out with two hours,

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Speaker 1: um and and then got shifted to thirty five hours.

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Speaker 1: But they all had to have some flying time. So

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Speaker 1: there were two ways that that they did this. Uh.

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Speaker 1: Some of the women just went out and paid for

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Speaker 1: their flying They got jobs at the airports and traded

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Speaker 1: their secretarial labor for flying time or for different things

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Speaker 1: like that. Um. Some of them pay cash or their

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Speaker 1: parents helped pay cash. But almost half of the women

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Speaker 1: who went into the training actually learned. There was a

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Speaker 1: program in the late thirties, UH called the Civilian Pilot

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Speaker 1: Training Program, and this was a government program set up

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Speaker 1: in part as as a New Deal type program to

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Speaker 1: support the aviation industry, but in reality it was growing

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Speaker 1: the number of pilots we had in the country because

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Speaker 1: by the late thirties, everybody could see something was coming

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Speaker 1: without a war and we just didn't have enough pilots.

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Speaker 1: So the government started this civilian pilot training program to

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Speaker 1: train men to fly. It was it was free flight

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Speaker 1: training basically. Uh. And the way that parts of Congress

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Speaker 1: who were trying to say, oh, this is a you know,

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Speaker 1: a depression program. We're trying to uplift the economy of

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Speaker 1: the aviation industry. It's not a war readiness program, because

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Speaker 1: there are a lot who of people who wanted us

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Speaker 1: to stay neutral. Um was, they let women in. So

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Speaker 1: out of a class of ten of these civilian pilot

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Speaker 1: training program classes, you could have one woman and and

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Speaker 1: over of the war earned their flying that way. So

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Speaker 1: they didn't have to have money. They just had to

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Speaker 1: be really smart and worked really hard. And so that's

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Speaker 1: the way that you get more women who are trained

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Speaker 1: to fly. When it came to actually joining the WASP,

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Speaker 1: what kind of physical requirements and standards did the women

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Speaker 1: have to meet? And were these different from, uh, from

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Speaker 1: the standards that men had to meet to join the military, right,

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Speaker 1: that's a that's a great question. So the standards for

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Speaker 1: the women changed over time, as it did for the

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Speaker 1: men um the you know, they were patterned after the

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Speaker 1: aviation cadets and and this is a big experiment to

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Speaker 1: see what women could do. The requirements for those first

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Speaker 1: women that came through those lasts, uh, they had to

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Speaker 1: be high school graduate. They had to be between twenty

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Speaker 1: one and thirty five years old. They had to hold

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Speaker 1: a commercial pilot's license, which is a level above that

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Speaker 1: private license. They had to have five hundred flight hours,

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Speaker 1: which is a lot of flight time. And they had

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Speaker 1: to have a two horsepower rating which meant they could

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Speaker 1: fly airplanes was two hundred horse power engines, which was

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Speaker 1: a big, big heavy airplanes for the time. Uh. They

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Speaker 1: had to have two letters of recommendation. All of these

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Speaker 1: things were men who were hired by the Faring Division

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Speaker 1: at the time as civilian pilots had to be between

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Speaker 1: nineteen and had to have only three years of flight

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Speaker 1: school and only two hundred flight hours. So there was

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Speaker 1: a real distinction between those first women and the men

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Speaker 1: who were being brought in for the same jobs. And

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Speaker 1: part of this was on purpose to um make sure

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Speaker 1: that the very most qualified women were getting in, because

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Speaker 1: you know, you have to have the best to prove

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Speaker 1: that yes, women really can't do this. Uh. So that

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Speaker 1: was uh, that was on purpose. So the women who

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Speaker 1: were brought into training, and there were a lot of

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Speaker 1: women who wanted to do this. There were twenty five

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Speaker 1: thousand women who applied to join the LOST to join

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Speaker 1: that training program. Only eighteen hundred and thirty were selected

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Speaker 1: because most of them didn't meet the requirements. But they

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Speaker 1: had to be between twenty one and thirty five, have

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Speaker 1: the high school education, they had to only be six

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Speaker 1: stance is tall, and have two hours of flight training um.

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Speaker 1: And then they had to pass a medical exam by

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Speaker 1: an Army flight surgeon. So we have all these stories

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Speaker 1: of women going to these military bases and these army

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Speaker 1: medical doctors not knowing what to do because here comes

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Speaker 1: this this you know, twenty year old, twenty one year

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Speaker 1: old woman asking for a flight physical and and uh

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Speaker 1: it's almans some of the male doctors. UM. And then

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Speaker 1: these women had to be approved by a personal interview

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Speaker 1: with either Jacqueline Cochrane or a member for staff UM.

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Speaker 1: So so, and these requirements are going to change over time.

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Speaker 1: They figure out that younger women, just as they do

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Speaker 1: the men, are maybe better at you know, being shaped

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Speaker 1: as a military pilot. So the ages dropped to eighteen

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Speaker 1: and a half UM and then that flight time has

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Speaker 1: dropped to only thirty five hours instead of two hundred,

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Speaker 1: and the biggest reason for that is there's just one

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Speaker 1: enough women out there who had two hundred hours. There

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Speaker 1: weren't enough people up there who had two d flight hours,

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Speaker 1: so they dropped it to thirty five. Now, male aviation

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Speaker 1: cadets who were brought in UM didn't have to have

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Speaker 1: any flight time, but the women had to have at

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Speaker 1: least thirty five hours to prove that they could could

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Speaker 1: handle it. Basically, so the requirements were different for the

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Speaker 1: women UM. But but they really tried to parallel the

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Speaker 1: men in some ways. They just they could be more

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Speaker 1: picky with the women because they had so many who

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Speaker 1: wanted to join where then then they desperately needed mat

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Speaker 1: UH and so they they their standards were a little

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Speaker 1: bit different. You mentioned that they needed to be at

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Speaker 1: least six tall. I was reading. I read a lot

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Speaker 1: of women's remembrances of having been in the LOSP and

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Speaker 1: and watched some UH interview footage with people, and several

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Speaker 1: of the women in described themselves as being really petite.

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Speaker 1: There was one who talked about she was actually half

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Speaker 1: an inch too short and she just sort of stood

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Speaker 1: on her honor tippy toes while she was being measured. Um,

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Speaker 1: in the hope of getting in. And like five ft

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Speaker 1: two is not very tall, and it's still more than

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Speaker 1: four inches shorter than the average male height at this point.

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Speaker 1: Did they have to do anything to modify the cockpits

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Speaker 1: or the controls considering that those would have been built

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Speaker 1: with a male pilot in mind. Right, Yeah, a lot

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Speaker 1: of these was for sure. The you know, the average

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Speaker 1: was almost five five especially since in the later classes

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Speaker 1: they raised the limit and the average men at the

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Speaker 1: time was five nins, which is pretty small too if

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Speaker 1: you think about it by today's standards. Um, but they

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Speaker 1: didn't do any modifications. These women were not going to

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Speaker 1: be coddled too in any way. Right, they were an experiment.

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Speaker 1: If they couldn't do the job, they were not they

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Speaker 1: were sent home. So one of the things that the

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Speaker 1: women did was they would carry extra parachutes with themselves

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Speaker 1: and they put them behind themselves and underneath themselves so

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Speaker 1: that they could lean be further up, uh and and

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Speaker 1: reach the petals and things like that. So they didn't

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Speaker 1: modify the cockpits. It's important to to remember that these

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Speaker 1: planes are small, you know, even today, you know, the

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Speaker 1: bombers and cargo planes and things like that are are bigger,

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Speaker 1: and so pilots can be bigger, you know, taller and

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Speaker 1: just larger. But those fighter planes today, and the pursuit

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Speaker 1: planes and and the lighter aircraft of of the warriors,

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Speaker 1: they're they're best suited for small people. So a lot

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Speaker 1: of the men pilots who were the pursuit pilots, they

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Speaker 1: were short as well, because it just it was such

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Speaker 1: a compact space to get everything in that needed to

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Speaker 1: happen still make the plane light enough to be fast

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Speaker 1: and maneuverable. So you know, you see a lot of

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Speaker 1: pilots in the world, and many of them are short.

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Speaker 1: I love the idea that they were basically using parachutes

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Speaker 1: as a booster seat. That that's awesome. Yeah, it was that.

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Speaker 1: Lots of pictures of them carrying carrying extra parachutes across

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Speaker 1: you know, across the ramp, and uh, you know, some

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Speaker 1: of them talked about some of the men, if they

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Speaker 1: wanted to date us, they would carry our parachutes for us,

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Speaker 1: and and things like that. But but but yeah, they

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Speaker 1: were problem solvers. It is still incredible to me. How

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Speaker 1: many women went out and got their own flight training

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Speaker 1: so that they could join the WASP. And this number

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Speaker 1: is going to come up again. There were a lot

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Speaker 1: of women who were interested in joining, about thousand applied.

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Speaker 1: I think those numbers will probably surprise a lot of listeners.

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Speaker 1: I know they did me. Before we move on to

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Speaker 1: the next part, do you want to pause for a

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Speaker 1: word from one of our sponsors. Let's do that all right.

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Speaker 1: Now that we've talked about what the vironments were for

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Speaker 1: women to join the WASP, we're going to talk about

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Speaker 1: what that training process was actually like once they were accepted.

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Speaker 1: Most of it took place at Avenger Field in Sweetwater, Texas,

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Speaker 1: which is home to a WASP museum today. So let's

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Speaker 1: get back to the interview. Once women were accepted into

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Speaker 1: the training program? What was that training program like? Great?

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Speaker 1: But the training was um extensive and it changed over

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Speaker 1: time and again it really paralleled the training that the

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Speaker 1: male cadets were going through, the aviation cadets were going through. Uh,

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Speaker 1: this program from the beginning was set up as an experiment,

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Speaker 1: let's see what women can do it whether we can

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Speaker 1: count on women as military pilots. Because when it all started,

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Speaker 1: we just didn't know what was going to happen. We

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Speaker 1: didn't know who was going to win the war in

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Speaker 1: nineteen nineteen forty three. Uh, it wasn't looking good. So

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Speaker 1: we really we might need women in all of these roles. UM,

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Speaker 1: and they wanted to release men pilots. So they did

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Speaker 1: what they knew. You know, the Army Air Forces did

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Speaker 1: what they knew, and they paralleled the women's flight training

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Speaker 1: with the men and I got longer over the course

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Speaker 1: of the war. Uh. They they had all sorts of

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Speaker 1: different training. In the beginning, UM, it was twenty three

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Speaker 1: weeks from the beginning of the program to graduation UH,

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Speaker 1: and then included something like a hundred and fifteen hours

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Speaker 1: of flying and a hundred and eighty hours of ground school.

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Speaker 1: By the end it was thirty weeks, so it got

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Speaker 1: extended quite a bits of flight training three three hours

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Speaker 1: of ground school. So you know, we have these visions

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Speaker 1: of them flying all the time, and really what they

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Speaker 1: would do is they'd split their day and half where

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Speaker 1: they'd fly half of the day going through uh uh

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Speaker 1: different different levels of it. Uh and then they would

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Speaker 1: go to ground school for half the day, so half

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Speaker 1: of their time was spent in a classroom learning all

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Speaker 1: sorts of different things. Uh. They learned military things because

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Speaker 1: they were expected to be military. They were technically civilians,

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Speaker 1: but they were trained with the expectation that they would

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Speaker 1: be military. So they learned military courtesy and customs. They

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Speaker 1: learned drills and ceremonies, army organization, different things like that

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Speaker 1: that would make them a good member of the Army

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Speaker 1: Air Forces. Um. They marched everywhere they went. Who got

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Speaker 1: a lot of really fun songs from them, uh singing

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Speaker 1: while they marched. They did daily calisthenics to keep themselves

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Speaker 1: in shape. Uh. But then they had more traditional courses.

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Speaker 1: They had mathematics, they had physics, uh, maps and charts

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Speaker 1: and uh navigation basic principles of flight. They had engines,

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Speaker 1: they had propellers, weather, you know, physical and first day training.

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Speaker 1: And then the one piece that they all hated the

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Speaker 1: most and still grown about when you mentioned, was Morse code.

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Speaker 1: They all had to learn Morse code, and they all

292
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Speaker 1: did did dead dead, and they hated it. But but

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Speaker 1: it was the navigational tool of the day. Uh. So

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Speaker 1: they had to spend hours studying Morse code uh in

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Speaker 1: a hot classroom in Texas. But but so it's really

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Speaker 1: um this next day for them, And and they could

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Speaker 1: be eliminated for failure in any of those things, whether

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Speaker 1: they failed the training of of the classroom or if

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Speaker 1: they failed the flight, you know, if they were insufficient flying.

300
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Speaker 1: So they were they were always on edge, uh and

301
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Speaker 1: and desperately afraid of being washed out. Is it true

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Speaker 1: that the first class was only assigned married instructors who

303
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Speaker 1: would sort of know how to handle women. Yeah, so

304
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Speaker 1: this was this was new right, using women uh to

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Speaker 1: fly these airplanes. And and there was a lot of debate.

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Speaker 1: This decision to make bring women in as pilots had

307
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Speaker 1: been debated for several years. Both Nancy Love and Jack

308
00:18:12,520 --> 00:18:15,119
Speaker 1: the Cochrane had come up with these ideas and and

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Speaker 1: presented them, and the Army Air Forces was like, no,

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Speaker 1: we're not going to do that. We don't need them yet.

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Speaker 1: And one of their biggest reasons not to was just logistics.

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Speaker 1: You know, how do we how's the women? Where do

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Speaker 1: we put the women with? You know, who instructs the women?

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Speaker 1: And and our women even capable of doing this job.

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Speaker 1: So when they started the training, it's like, okay, let's

316
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Speaker 1: let's bring in married men as their flight instructors because

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Speaker 1: they will know how to handle the women. Um and

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Speaker 1: which isn't always accurate. Uh and uh and and let's

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Speaker 1: let's figure this out. Another big part of why they

320
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Speaker 1: wanted married men or limited where on the field men

321
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Speaker 1: could go, especially when they got to Sweetwater, Uh, was

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Speaker 1: they wanted to protect the women's reputation because there was

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Speaker 1: a big controversy about women in the military and whether

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Speaker 1: they were um, you know, were they just chasing after

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Speaker 1: the you know, the status of Mrs Right and getting

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Speaker 1: married themselves, whether they were really prostitutes rights, whether they

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Speaker 1: were all lesbians, whether they were all you know, who

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Speaker 1: are these women who want to join the military? Um.

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Speaker 1: The reality is they were patriotic women. But uh, the

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Speaker 1: this was a big part Jack le Cochon, especially who

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Speaker 1: ran the training side. Um, she really wanted to protect

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Speaker 1: the reputation of the women and to have nothing questionable

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Speaker 1: about who these women were and what they were doing.

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Speaker 1: And so she made a lot of rules and a

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Speaker 1: lot of the decisions based around that premise of protecting

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Speaker 1: the reputation of the women and her own reputation as

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Speaker 1: the leader of the women. Uh. You know. One of

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00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:09,359
Speaker 1: those things they did in Sweetwater, which is where most

339
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Speaker 1: of the women trained was. There was another airfield nearby,

340
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Speaker 1: big airfield was nearby, and when the men figured out

341
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Speaker 1: that there were a bunch of women pilots on the field, uh,

342
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Speaker 1: they fly over and then it was declared, well, you

343
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Speaker 1: can't land on a vendor field um without an emergency.

344
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Speaker 1: And surprisingly enough, over a hundreds and thirty men had

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Speaker 1: emergencies and had to have emergency landings unless air field.

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Speaker 1: Of all these women pilots in the first two weeks,

347
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Speaker 1: how I thought that, you know, all these pilots, um,

348
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Speaker 1: So they had to shut that down uh, and and

349
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Speaker 1: wouldn't let them land there at all. Uh. And they

350
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Speaker 1: wouldn't lead men anywhere near the housing portions of the field.

351
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Speaker 1: They called the Cochrane's convents because they just weren't going

352
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Speaker 1: to have any any trouble with men the women. When

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Speaker 1: they did the training at Sweetwater, it got very big.

354
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Speaker 1: So they couldn't have all married instructors, but they had. Uh.

355
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Speaker 1: It was strongly uh forbidden to date uh flight instructors.

356
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Speaker 1: Of course, amazingly, some of the flight instructors of the

357
00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,560
Speaker 1: loss got married. So I'm not sure how that happens

358
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Speaker 1: since they weren't allowed to date. But but you know

359
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Speaker 1: it was it was a real effort to to protect

360
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Speaker 1: the women and a real um. But the Army Air

361
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Speaker 1: Forces just weren't sure what to do with all these

362
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Speaker 1: women pilots because they were it was just so different.

363
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Speaker 1: They had nurses, and they had different groups of women

364
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Speaker 1: in the military, of course, but but that was they

365
00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:48,120
Speaker 1: could figure out what to do with them. But these

366
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Speaker 1: women pilots, maybe it was such a masculine thing that

367
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Speaker 1: that they just they just weren't sure had to handle it.

368
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Speaker 1: I love the fact that the emergency landings spike. I

369
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Speaker 1: had not heard that at like hundred over a hundred

370
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Speaker 1: over like a hundred thirty five or something. Good. Oh no,

371
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Speaker 1: it's a story that um that one man you know,

372
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Speaker 1: this is this is as the X was coming down

373
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Speaker 1: forbidding it that he actually flew over a hundred miles

374
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Speaker 1: was with his engine missing, right, he knew it was missing,

375
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Speaker 1: and he he made it miss and he took off

376
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Speaker 1: that way and flew past other airfields with the engine missing,

377
00:22:30,720 --> 00:22:35,680
Speaker 1: so he could land with a legitimate emergency. So these

378
00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 1: young men were very inventive. So while I was preparing

379
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Speaker 1: for our interview, I read really wonderful book called for

380
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Speaker 1: God Country and the Thrill of It, which is mostly

381
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:51,480
Speaker 1: photographs of of the WASP and their training and all.

382
00:22:51,560 --> 00:22:54,520
Speaker 1: It's wonderful. One of the things that was in this

383
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Speaker 1: book was a photograph of a class of graduates along

384
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Speaker 1: with Jacqueline Cochrane, and they're throwing coins into a wishing

385
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Speaker 1: well and that that was a tradition that was part

386
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:07,399
Speaker 1: of their graduation ceremonies after training. Is there a story

387
00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:12,240
Speaker 1: to how that tradition developed and what it symbolized? Great? Well,

388
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,600
Speaker 1: I think the um the story that I know, uh,

389
00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,919
Speaker 1: is that that starting with the second class, you know,

390
00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 1: the WASP, that started their training in Houston, and Houston

391
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 1: was not very conducive to flight training. It was it

392
00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,159
Speaker 1: was crowded, there was no good housing, UM, and the

393
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,119
Speaker 1: weather just if you've ever been to Houston, the weather

394
00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 1: is not good for flight training. And you know, the

395
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,320
Speaker 1: fog comes in, the fog goes out. It just it

396
00:23:40,440 --> 00:23:43,400
Speaker 1: just wasn't wasn't a good place. So they moved out

397
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 1: to Sweetwater, Texas, to Avenger Field, which you know is

398
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,879
Speaker 1: in western Texas and wide open spaces and and just

399
00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:55,000
Speaker 1: just better. UM and the base had been used for

400
00:23:55,080 --> 00:23:58,520
Speaker 1: mail pilots, for British mail pilots. Uh. And so I

401
00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 1: believe the wishing well was from those men. But the

402
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:07,800
Speaker 1: tradition for the WASP started. Um. The second class graduated,

403
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,480
Speaker 1: uh and uh General Barton Out who had helped begin

404
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: the program, was their graduation and through a silver dollar

405
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:23,280
Speaker 1: in the wishing well as congratulations and good luck uh

406
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,360
Speaker 1: for the women. Uh for that first class and graduates

407
00:24:26,400 --> 00:24:28,359
Speaker 1: and all who came after them. So he you know,

408
00:24:28,400 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: they put a plaque there at everything and uh. Um

409
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 1: they still have the plaque actually at Texas Woman's University

410
00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:39,399
Speaker 1: of the you know him wishing them well and giving

411
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:43,119
Speaker 1: them this this point. So that became, you know the

412
00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:46,879
Speaker 1: tradition of tossing a coin in the wishing well for

413
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 1: good luck before Czech ride and h after you soloed,

414
00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,439
Speaker 1: you also got thrown in the wishing well. And it

415
00:24:55,520 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: was just a way. Um. There was so much tension.

416
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 1: The women had a great time, but there was real

417
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:05,320
Speaker 1: tension that was always being afraid of of washing out,

418
00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 1: of not making it through the program. So those those

419
00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: little celebrations become very important. Uh. And and so to

420
00:25:13,720 --> 00:25:16,680
Speaker 1: have to have the coin tossed from someone like Jack

421
00:25:16,720 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 1: the Cochrane or from each other. Um, it was a

422
00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:23,720
Speaker 1: big part of that that's fun tradition, that's that they had.

423
00:25:29,920 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: I was so glad to hear from Kate about this

424
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 1: particular point. I watched a lot of interview footage and

425
00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:39,040
Speaker 1: read written interviews with women who had served with the WASP,

426
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,879
Speaker 1: and most of them were done as part of WASP

427
00:25:41,960 --> 00:25:46,360
Speaker 1: reunions or when museums were open, and uh in one

428
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:48,560
Speaker 1: case a parade float that was built for the Rose

429
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 1: Parade that we're going to talk about later. And so

430
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: most of the time when people when these when we're

431
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,719
Speaker 1: being interviewed, they were talking about um, their patriotism and

432
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: their passion for flying, and this huge sense of camaraderie

433
00:26:00,080 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 1: that they had with the other women just because of

434
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,240
Speaker 1: the context where they were being asked the questions. And

435
00:26:05,280 --> 00:26:07,240
Speaker 1: so it wasn't until this part of the interview with

436
00:26:07,359 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 1: Kate that it really sunk in what an enormously stressful,

437
00:26:11,160 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 1: high pressure situation this was, in addition to just the

438
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,040
Speaker 1: fact that it was happening during wartime. So before we

439
00:26:18,080 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: get to this last chunk of today's part of the interview, Tracy,

440
00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:22,920
Speaker 1: do you want to pause again and have a little

441
00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:34,159
Speaker 1: sponsor break. Let's do that, alrighty. Not all of the

442
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:37,240
Speaker 1: women who started the WASP training program made it all

443
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,479
Speaker 1: the way through to earn their wings. And as we

444
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: close out today's installment, Kate and Tracy are going to

445
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: talk about why that was the case when we haven't

446
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:51,320
Speaker 1: really talked about this, but a lot of women didn't

447
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 1: make it all the way through the program because it

448
00:26:53,720 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 1: was really hard, like eighteen eighteen hundred and thirty works did,

449
00:27:01,200 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: but only a little over actually graduated. Great. Well, um,

450
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:12,840
Speaker 1: that's right. So thousand apply eight thirty year accepted to

451
00:27:12,880 --> 00:27:16,200
Speaker 1: training and then a thousand and seventy four graduate because

452
00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: the total number of the WASP is eleven hundred and two,

453
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:23,680
Speaker 1: but that includes those wafts, those first who were really

454
00:27:23,760 --> 00:27:26,440
Speaker 1: highly qualified and didn't go through the training. But yeah,

455
00:27:26,480 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 1: only a thousand and seventy four graduate um from the

456
00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: training program. And it's it's interesting and a lot of

457
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,960
Speaker 1: people don't realize this that, um, you know, the women

458
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 1: get washed out for a number of different reasons. Uh,

459
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 1: insufficient flying is is the biggest problem. H And that's

460
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:47,280
Speaker 1: that's standard. Uh. Some of the wast to talk about

461
00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,679
Speaker 1: this and say, look, there were girls who were and

462
00:27:49,720 --> 00:27:53,920
Speaker 1: they say girls so um that that we're good pilots,

463
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:58,399
Speaker 1: but just it all moved so fast that they just

464
00:27:58,440 --> 00:28:01,080
Speaker 1: couldn't keep up. Or you know, if you get sick

465
00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: and you missed your flight training, you could wash back

466
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:07,479
Speaker 1: to another class, but you know, then you're behind. So

467
00:28:07,520 --> 00:28:09,960
Speaker 1: there were there were all these different issues. Uh. The

468
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:14,520
Speaker 1: interesting thing about this washout rate, right, this non graduation rate,

469
00:28:15,040 --> 00:28:19,399
Speaker 1: is that it parallels the men's washout rates. And so

470
00:28:19,520 --> 00:28:23,679
Speaker 1: what the army our forces would do is they they

471
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,280
Speaker 1: based the number of graduates that they would have out

472
00:28:26,280 --> 00:28:30,040
Speaker 1: of a particular class. Right, there were eighteen classes of WASP.

473
00:28:30,920 --> 00:28:34,160
Speaker 1: They were designated by the year they were they were

474
00:28:35,040 --> 00:28:38,720
Speaker 1: going to graduate, right, so forty three um, and the

475
00:28:38,760 --> 00:28:42,120
Speaker 1: women had a w for for women, and then you know,

476
00:28:42,560 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: forty three three is the third class to graduate, in

477
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:50,720
Speaker 1: ninette seven is going to be the seventh class to graduate,

478
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:53,320
Speaker 1: and it's and it goes on out and they're eighteen classes.

479
00:28:54,200 --> 00:28:56,320
Speaker 1: And the men were designated the same way, you know,

480
00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,800
Speaker 1: forty three one three to forty three three whatever. And

481
00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: if you parallel the men's classes to the women's classes,

482
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:08,440
Speaker 1: the percentage of the washout rate is the same. Or

483
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: or very close. It's because the Army Air Forces were

484
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:17,400
Speaker 1: looking at the losses in Europe and in the Pacific

485
00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: of pilots and guessing how many new pilots they were

486
00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,040
Speaker 1: going to need. And so some classes have a much

487
00:29:25,080 --> 00:29:29,200
Speaker 1: lower washout rate than others because the Army Air Forces thought,

488
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: we're going to need more pilots, we need to graduate

489
00:29:31,560 --> 00:29:33,959
Speaker 1: more pilots. Okay, let them get away with that or

490
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 1: that um and and some classes they have a fifty

491
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: washout rate because they're like, oh my gosh, we just

492
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: we don't need as many pilots. Let's, you know, find

493
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 1: something else for them to do. Well. The men, when

494
00:29:45,800 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: they washed out, they would be moved over into you

495
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 1: know and be a navigator or be a bombardier or

496
00:29:53,200 --> 00:29:56,840
Speaker 1: have different positions. Where the women, if they washed out,

497
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: their bed was rolled up and they were sent home.

498
00:30:00,600 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: Uh So it was a different experience for these washouts.

499
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: But you know, some legitimately were washed out. You know,

500
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: most were legitimately washed out because of different different clauses.

501
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: But that percentage um was was really based on what

502
00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: was going on in the war and expectations like that.

503
00:30:20,200 --> 00:30:25,320
Speaker 1: That's both fascinating and heartbreaking. The idea that that we're

504
00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:28,720
Speaker 1: basically replacing people. I think that's an important point. That

505
00:30:30,040 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 1: we were replacing people, right, I mean, that's that's what

506
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: was going on in the war, is you were you

507
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:39,480
Speaker 1: were expanding the number of pilots we had right uh,

508
00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 1: in combat, but especially in before that. The P fifty

509
00:30:45,520 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 1: one saved lives, right that aircraft because it can take

510
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,200
Speaker 1: the bombers all the way into Germany, you know, and

511
00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:54,760
Speaker 1: protect them. But before the P fifty one was ready

512
00:30:54,760 --> 00:31:00,280
Speaker 1: to go with those long range tanks, um, we we

513
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:02,640
Speaker 1: had a lot of pilots who are being lost and

514
00:31:03,120 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: we had to replace them. And the main purpose of

515
00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 1: the loss was to release men from domestic flying so

516
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:14,720
Speaker 1: they could go and fly in combat. It was it

517
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:17,520
Speaker 1: was a war. It was for the war, you know.

518
00:31:17,560 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: It wasn't it wasn't just an experiment to see what

519
00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: women could do. There's an experiment to see what women

520
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: could do so men could go and fight. Uh. And

521
00:31:28,280 --> 00:31:30,320
Speaker 1: And that I think is an important thing. You know,

522
00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:34,080
Speaker 1: these women are very fun and very cool, and and

523
00:31:34,160 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 1: it has been a joy to study them for the

524
00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: last twenty years. But but they have to be put

525
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: into perspective of what their purpose was um and that's

526
00:31:42,720 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: to replace men, uh and to release men who could

527
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: go and fight and that. Okay, I know this is

528
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 1: a very downer place to end an episode. It's such

529
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 1: an important note though. The WASP were really really incredible.

530
00:32:02,720 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 1: They were hugely dedicated, they worked incredibly hard. They broke

531
00:32:06,200 --> 00:32:09,320
Speaker 1: a lot of new ground for women in both aviation

532
00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:12,120
Speaker 1: and in the American Armed Forces. But really all of

533
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 1: this came about because the men who had been doing

534
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 1: those jobs were first needed elsewhere, and a lot of

535
00:32:18,160 --> 00:32:20,360
Speaker 1: times it was because the people who had been doing

536
00:32:20,400 --> 00:32:23,360
Speaker 1: those jobs elsewhere had been killed in the line of duty.

537
00:32:23,440 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 1: So I know it's a sad place to pause for

538
00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 1: the day, but we're gonna have lots more to talk

539
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 1: about in our next episode on Wednesday. So from here,

540
00:32:32,200 --> 00:32:35,040
Speaker 1: Tracy's fabulous interview gets into what sort of work the

541
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: WASP actually did once their training was over, and so

542
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: that's gonna be for next time. Uh, and we will

543
00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:43,240
Speaker 1: pick up with the work that they did ferrying planes

544
00:32:43,240 --> 00:32:46,479
Speaker 1: and people as well as towing targets for practice with

545
00:32:46,600 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: live ammunition. But for right now, Tracy, do you have

546
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,040
Speaker 1: some listener mail for us? They do? I have listener

547
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:55,760
Speaker 1: mail from Amy and she writes to us, actually about

548
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: two episodes, one that you researched and one that I researched,

549
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 1: So I'm gonna read the whole thing. And uh Amy says, Hello,

550
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: Holly and Tracy. I've been listening to the podcast for

551
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:07,120
Speaker 1: about a year and love what you do. Thank you

552
00:33:07,120 --> 00:33:09,800
Speaker 1: for your time and effort in researching these interesting topics.

553
00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,080
Speaker 1: I'm writing about two different podcasts. First on Sir Isaac Newton.

554
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,240
Speaker 1: When I was studying physics, my professor told the class

555
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:20,240
Speaker 1: a story about his early years. A point tidbit that

556
00:33:20,440 --> 00:33:23,560
Speaker 1: stood out to me was the oddness of his childhood home.

557
00:33:23,880 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: Specifically the matriarch of the family. I think it was

558
00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:29,040
Speaker 1: his grandmother, but it may have been his mother boarded

559
00:33:29,080 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 1: up the windows in the house to avoid paying additional taxes,

560
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 1: which were at the time based on the number of

561
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,320
Speaker 1: windows a home displayed, So not only was he isolated,

562
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,320
Speaker 1: but his home was always dark. My professor indicated that

563
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: this may have contributed to his eccentric behavior later in life.

564
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: Second on Katherine Dexter McCormick. She is one of my

565
00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: heroes and I was thrilled to see your podcast about her.

566
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 1: I attended m I T and lived in McCormick Hall

567
00:33:55,400 --> 00:33:59,280
Speaker 1: in two thousand four, during the anniversary of Catherine's graduation

568
00:33:59,320 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 1: from m I T. It is a gorgeously decorated and

569
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,000
Speaker 1: outfitted home on the shores of the Charles River. The

570
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: design of the dorm was extremely deliberate based on Catherine's wishes.

571
00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:11,760
Speaker 1: There are several large living rooms on the main floor

572
00:34:11,760 --> 00:34:14,000
Speaker 1: of the Green Room and the Brown Room, which contained

573
00:34:14,000 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: pianos and beautiful antique furniture. Many of these pieces of

574
00:34:17,200 --> 00:34:20,640
Speaker 1: furniture belonged to Catherine, and we're used to smuggle contraception

575
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: into the country. There was also a dining hall in

576
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 1: the building, which Katherine insisted upon so that the women

577
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 1: living in the dorm did not have to cook their

578
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,000
Speaker 1: own meals each night before classes in the morning. McCormick

579
00:34:31,040 --> 00:34:33,720
Speaker 1: Hall is the only single sex dorm left on campus.

580
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:36,880
Speaker 1: As a memorial to Catherine and her efforts for women's

581
00:34:36,880 --> 00:34:39,239
Speaker 1: suffrage and women's health, and to m I t s

582
00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:43,319
Speaker 1: dedication to advancing women in science and engineering. And then

583
00:34:43,360 --> 00:34:45,279
Speaker 1: she goes on to thank us and to suggest some

584
00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,160
Speaker 1: more episode topics. Thank you so much, Amy, that's such

585
00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:52,440
Speaker 1: a good, a great note. His We've had a few

586
00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:54,840
Speaker 1: folks right in who either went to m I T

587
00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: or are from their surrounding area and rode in with

588
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 1: personal details about about mccormacall, but this is my favorite one.

589
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:05,360
Speaker 1: If you would like to write to us about this

590
00:35:05,440 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: or any other podcast, where at history Podcasts at how

591
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:10,120
Speaker 1: stuff works dot com. And we're also on Facebook at

592
00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 1: facebook dot com slash miss in history and on Twitter

593
00:35:12,880 --> 00:35:15,319
Speaker 1: at miss in History. Are tumbler is miss in history

594
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:17,560
Speaker 1: dot tumble dot com. We're also on panterrist at Pegris

595
00:35:17,600 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: dot com slash miss in History. You want to come

596
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:22,479
Speaker 1: to our parent company's website, which is how stuff Works

597
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:25,840
Speaker 1: dot com. You can put the word airplane into the

598
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,960
Speaker 1: search bar. You will find all sorts of information about airplanes,

599
00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:32,400
Speaker 1: how they work, the history of aviation, lots of green stuff.

600
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:34,879
Speaker 1: You can also come to our website, which is missed

601
00:35:34,920 --> 00:35:36,839
Speaker 1: in history dot com, where you will find show notes.

602
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 1: You will find an archive of every episode that we

603
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 1: have ever done. In terms of today's episode, there will

604
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,479
Speaker 1: be lots of links to places where you can see

605
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:46,920
Speaker 1: pictures and learn a lot more about the women Air

606
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:49,120
Speaker 1: Force Service pilots. So you can learn all that and

607
00:35:49,160 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: a whole lot more at how stuff Works dot com

608
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: or miss and History dot com for more on this

609
00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:00,200
Speaker 1: and thousands of other topics. Is It, How stuff to

610
00:36:01,200 --> 00:36:03,840
Speaker 1: boot Bolling