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Speaker 1: If it doesn't work, you're just not using enough. You're

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Speaker 1: listening to Software Radio Special operations, military news and straight

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Speaker 1: talk with the guys and the community. Hello again, everyone,

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Speaker 1: welcome back to Software Radio for a radio on time

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Speaker 1: on target. I'm your host this afternoon, Steve Allstari. We

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Speaker 1: have a very special guest with us on the line.

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Speaker 1: He just came up with the book. His name is

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Speaker 1: Mike Leonard. He was a pilot in the Air Force.

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Speaker 1: He was a fact pilot in Vietnam. I think you know,

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Speaker 1: once you hear his story, our listeners are gonna love

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Speaker 1: here and about Mike, uh, what he did in the

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Speaker 1: Air Force, some of the stories he has to relate.

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Speaker 1: It was really really interesting book. I encourage all of

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Speaker 1: our listeners to uh to check that out and download it.

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Speaker 1: But before we get into all that stuff and what

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Speaker 1: will you know, inform our listeners and readers where they

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Speaker 1: can find that later on in the podcast. But before

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Speaker 1: we do that, we want to welcome Mike to the podcast. Mike,

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Speaker 1: welcome to Software Radio. Thanks for taking the time this afternoon.

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Speaker 1: We really appreciate it. Stevie, were more than welcome. I'm

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Speaker 1: just please as bunch to be here. And looking forward

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Speaker 1: to our little discussion. Yeah, you know, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: I think there was a there's an old Chinese proverb.

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Speaker 1: I think it's kind of a curse when it says,

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Speaker 1: may you live in interesting times? And I think you

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Speaker 1: could say your life was a very up to this point.

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you're not done living yet, but I think

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Speaker 1: that you've lived through some pretty interesting times. You know that.

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Speaker 1: That's that's so true. That's I think I used that

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Speaker 1: that little quote in my book somewhere, and that was it,

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Speaker 1: may you live in interesting times? And if you think

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Speaker 1: about it, you know, you go through life. There's three

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Speaker 1: things in life. You know that you're born, you live,

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Speaker 1: and then you die, and so you can't control the

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Speaker 1: first one of the last one, but you can control

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Speaker 1: everything in between in the life phase. And and I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you something right now, you want to pack into

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Speaker 1: that life phase as much interesting stuff and do as

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Speaker 1: many things and meet as many great people as you

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Speaker 1: possibly can. That's what life is all about. That's it.

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Speaker 1: And uh, I think you did that. I mean reading

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Speaker 1: the book, it was like every page was something else.

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Speaker 1: And you know, early in your life you talked about

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Speaker 1: how you're you know, you grew up in your family,

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Speaker 1: and you know, your grandmother was actually traveling for a

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Speaker 1: while with a circus, which was like really interesting. And

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Speaker 1: then yourself, you you took Mary Fran from the Bob

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Speaker 1: new Haward Show to your college, from which I was,

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Speaker 1: I'll have to say, I'm dating myself there, but I

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Speaker 1: was quite jealous of that. Well, like, well, her name

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Speaker 1: was got Lever. You know, she's passed away now, but

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Speaker 1: her name was Mary Fran Lukey and she was a

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Speaker 1: Saint Louis Carol and uh, I think she was one

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Speaker 1: of the first teenage Miss America's or something like that.

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Speaker 1: But at the time she was just one of the

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Speaker 1: young ladies that we dated. And uh yeah, and I

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Speaker 1: took her to my college prom. Remember she she came up,

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Speaker 1: came up on a train, uh, and we picked her up.

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Speaker 1: And you know, of course it was all very much

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Speaker 1: by protocol in those days when you're you know, coat

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Speaker 1: and tie in the whole nine yards. So that she

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Speaker 1: was a great gal, great gal. Yeah, and uh she

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Speaker 1: was fantastic on that bottom New God show. I love

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Speaker 1: you know. I thought when I heard he was coming

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Speaker 1: out with that second show, I was like, he can

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Speaker 1: never beat that first show that he had. I think

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Speaker 1: he did with that one, and she was a big deal. Yeah. So, um,

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Speaker 1: you know, fill our listeners in a little bit about

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Speaker 1: how you came to become Air Force officer and a

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Speaker 1: little bit about your military career, and and we'll go

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Speaker 1: from there. Okay, so let me just jump it right

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Speaker 1: into it there, Steven, I'll tell you it's it's funny because, um,

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Speaker 1: so I wrote the book, and of course some of

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Speaker 1: the highlights of the book that kind of the high

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Speaker 1: points or some of the things that occurred in Vietnam.

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Speaker 1: In order to write a book, you have to have

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Speaker 1: the starting point who who are? Who is this guy?

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Speaker 1: You know? What? How did he get to where he

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Speaker 1: is now? So? Um, yeah, I mean I I grew

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Speaker 1: up in St. Louis and and I went off to

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Speaker 1: college there in Kansas, a small liberal arts college called

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Speaker 1: Saint Benedick's College and Atchison, Kansas, great little school. And

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Speaker 1: um and then I you know, after got married late

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Speaker 1: I like my last year in college, and I had

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Speaker 1: a little one on the way, and so I'm thinking

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Speaker 1: what am I going to do for a living here?

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Speaker 1: And I remember the marine guy came in a marine

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Speaker 1: recruiter came through our our student union, so to speak,

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Speaker 1: and and I was going to sign up and join

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Speaker 1: the Marine platoon leader class. But when he came back

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Speaker 1: to do the final paperwork and I was looking for him,

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Speaker 1: he never showed up. And but air Force recruiter walked

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Speaker 1: from the door, and I said, that must be the

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Speaker 1: guy I'm gonna be signing up. So I ended up

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Speaker 1: joining in the Air Force because I needed a job

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Speaker 1: and I didn't feel like selling insurance in Kansas City

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Speaker 1: or coaching football and teaching high school in Chicago. So

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Speaker 1: those are my options. So, um, does it is? It is?

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Speaker 1: It's the serendipity to life. Is just the way things work.

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Speaker 1: And and so there I was and off to San Antonio, Texas,

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Speaker 1: and for what I didn't realize was the beginning of

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Speaker 1: a twenty year career. And and uh, you first started

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Speaker 1: off as a crew member in later transition to become

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Speaker 1: a pilot, and can you talk to our listeners a

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Speaker 1: little bit through that? You bet? You bet? So when

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Speaker 1: I went into the Air Force, I ended up being

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Speaker 1: brought in as what they was known as a weapons controller.

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Speaker 1: And the weapons controller was the recruiter said, well, you're

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Speaker 1: going to be controlling missiles out of Cape Kennedy, Florida.

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Speaker 1: And I thought, geez, that would be great, you know,

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Speaker 1: launching missiles and stuff. Well that wasn't exactly what the

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Speaker 1: job was. The Javan tail working at radar sites sometimes

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Speaker 1: the remote radar sites throughout the you know the Northern two,

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Speaker 1: remember the Dow Line, You remember the Distant Early Warning

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Speaker 1: lineup in northern Canada. Those are the places that you went.

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Speaker 1: And what you did was you would you would get online,

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Speaker 1: you control fighter interceptors in case any of the Russian

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Speaker 1: Bear bombers would come your way or anybody. You basically

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Speaker 1: run intercepts against these these these bombers. So that was

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Speaker 1: the job. And so but my first job ended up

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Speaker 1: in a place called Fort George Mead, Maryland at the

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Speaker 1: seven sevent Years Radar squad And so that was it

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Speaker 1: was a radar squadter and I ran intercepts there and

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Speaker 1: did all my things, and and I was living, you know,

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Speaker 1: living as a young second lieutenant. I think I was

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Speaker 1: making a hundred seventeen dollars a day and it was

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Speaker 1: twice a month, so you can see what money wasn't great,

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Speaker 1: But but the job was really fun and you know, so,

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Speaker 1: but the pod. What the next thing had happened was

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Speaker 1: I looked online one of the bulletins that they put

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Speaker 1: out and said, you know, you can you can actually

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Speaker 1: go and fly and do the same job controlling controlling

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Speaker 1: these airplanes and interceptors. You can can you can get

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Speaker 1: on us e C that's the Oldwaukee Constellation, the Airborne

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Speaker 1: Early Warning Control System. You can get on this airplane

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Speaker 1: and you can fly all over the place and you

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Speaker 1: can control intercepts. And by the way, they pay an

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Speaker 1: extra hundred bucks a month. I thought, heck, I don't

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Speaker 1: think I just died and went to heaven. So there

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Speaker 1: I was, you know. And so now I moved out

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Speaker 1: to Sacramento, California with mcclonin Air Force Space and at

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Speaker 1: McClellan flying with the five fifty second Wing, and we're

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Speaker 1: all of a sudden we get noticed we're being deployed

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Speaker 1: to Vietnam, and off I go on my first tour

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Speaker 1: to Vietnam in working in the back of a Khani

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Speaker 1: at Laki khannie flying up in the Gulf of Tonkin,

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Speaker 1: controlling fighters and trying to keep any MiGs away from

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Speaker 1: the fleet that's out in the Gulf of Tonga. So

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Speaker 1: that's that was the job. That's that entailed. And then, um,

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Speaker 1: somewhere along the line, you know, Steve, I got this.

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Speaker 1: One of the pilots said, you know, we make an

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Speaker 1: extra hundred and fifty bucks if you're a pilot fly

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Speaker 1: on airplane. I said, well, hell, I said, how hard

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Speaker 1: is that? Maybe I can try that. So I volunteer

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Speaker 1: to become a pilot and the Air Force pilot, and

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Speaker 1: I became an Air Force pilot. After I think it

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Speaker 1: was nineteen sixty eight, I graduated with my group and

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Speaker 1: what the heck they do to me? They put me

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Speaker 1: back in the cockpit DC Loggy Consolation. This time they

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Speaker 1: sent me to OTUS Air Force based up in Massachusetts.

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Speaker 1: So that's kind of how that first part started. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know otis quite well. Um, you know, growing up

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Speaker 1: in Massachusetts, we had family down in Falmouth, so I know,

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Speaker 1: you know Falmouth very well. Being staged I lived, I

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Speaker 1: lived Stephen Lisa, And Yeah, when I was reading the book,

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Speaker 1: I got a chuckle out of that because I know

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Speaker 1: how New England winters are. They just had a huge

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Speaker 1: northeaster up there. It's yesterday and I can't imagine flying

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Speaker 1: in the stuff like that, and you you talked about

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Speaker 1: a couple of instances where some of the storms up

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Speaker 1: there kind of made things a little dicey. Oh yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: you you flew out of hotas. Especially during the winter.

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Speaker 1: You you just had to expect, you know, icing, and

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Speaker 1: you had to expect really really bad weather and we

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Speaker 1: got it on a regular basis up there. Yeah. Well, man,

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Speaker 1: I can't imagine that. And you know, for somebody who

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Speaker 1: just flew in the back and jumped out of aircraft,

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Speaker 1: my hats always off to those, uh, to those people

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Speaker 1: who know how to fly to that stuff, because I'm

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Speaker 1: glad it wasn't me doing that. We probably would have

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Speaker 1: been bent around a tree somewhere. So well, it was

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Speaker 1: an interesting time. I think one of the times I

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Speaker 1: related in the book, and it might be interesting is

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Speaker 1: even we were deployed up to Iceland Directlibate Iceland to

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Speaker 1: the navy base. And what had happened was, I think

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Speaker 1: some of the some of the radar sites along the

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Speaker 1: you know, the sea lanes that came out of Russia

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Speaker 1: between Greenland and Iceland had been had blown down and

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Speaker 1: one of the radar sites have blown down, so they

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Speaker 1: needed to put these Lucky Constellation airborne early warning planes

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Speaker 1: into the slots over the waters kind of the bridge

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Speaker 1: the gap in the radar. So we went up there

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Speaker 1: and we're flying and one we get an active ary

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Speaker 1: defense mission and we get launched, and I think I

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Speaker 1: relate in the book somewhere that we actually rolled out

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Speaker 1: on the runway and since it was an active or

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Speaker 1: defense mission, we had to go. We're going. So the

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Speaker 1: unfortunate part was the runway had about you know, three

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Speaker 1: or four inches of snow on it, and you know,

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Speaker 1: normally you wouldn't even fly in that condition. But we

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Speaker 1: got on that runway and took off to go down

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Speaker 1: the runway and we weren't getting the power we needed

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Speaker 1: and and so the pilots, it was in the left

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Speaker 1: seat at the time, Jim Marner, I think his name was,

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Speaker 1: Jim reverses the engines, you know, And we come into

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Speaker 1: a sliding stop towards the end of the runway because

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Speaker 1: we had to abort the take off. And I'm telling

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Speaker 1: you what it was. It was a ride, and we

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Speaker 1: kept slowing down and slowing down, but we're end of

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Speaker 1: the runway coming up and we had to quick What

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Speaker 1: he did was he essentially just kind of stepped on

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Speaker 1: one break and pull one couple of inches out of

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Speaker 1: reverse and we just kind of spun around at the

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Speaker 1: very end of the runway. I remember reading that in

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Speaker 1: the book and I was like, yeah, I can't imagine

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Speaker 1: being in the back of that aircraft at the time

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Speaker 1: and going through that because that would have been one

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Speaker 1: of those instant bathed and sweat moments. You know, It's funny, Steve,

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Speaker 1: because what what happens is you get you know, you look,

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Speaker 1: you look at a pilot like the guy on the

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Speaker 1: left seat Gym was and he had a lot of

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Speaker 1: experienced thousands of hours of flying in here. I was

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Speaker 1: kind of a new pilot of time. But those are

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Speaker 1: the guys that taught you how to fly airplanes. And

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Speaker 1: you know, I give them so much credit because they

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Speaker 1: were you know, they were just they had had the experience,

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Speaker 1: They knew what they were doing. This guy it was

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Speaker 1: like second nature to him. So that's what you had

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Speaker 1: to develop as a pilot. You had to have a

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Speaker 1: second nature to you. That's cool, and so to talk

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Speaker 1: us through and then you transitioned and into the smallest

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Speaker 1: aircraft in the Air Force and talk us through that oh, well,

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Speaker 1: you know it's it's funny. And one of the common

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Speaker 1: themes you're gonna hear hear me sick is I was

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Speaker 1: always trying to follow the money because if you've got

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Speaker 1: a growing family or growing family, you're always looking to

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Speaker 1: make sure that you're taking care of them getting a

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Speaker 1: little bit extra. So what happens is so I'm I

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Speaker 1: noticed when the guy said to me, you know, um,

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Speaker 1: you know if you go into combat, if you go

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Speaker 1: to Vietnam and going to combat, you know, they I

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Speaker 1: think they pay an extra hundred and ten bucks a

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Speaker 1: month for combat pay and so. And at the time

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Speaker 1: I was OTIS Air Force Space, I was kind of

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Speaker 1: a position where I have been there for a couple

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Speaker 1: of years I think it was, and and I thought,

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Speaker 1: you know, um, they got a war going on. If

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Speaker 1: I can help it anyway, I sure like could try it. Oh,

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Speaker 1: by the way, they pay an extra hundred and ten

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Speaker 1: bucks a month in combat pay. Well you know I could.

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Speaker 1: I could do that for you know, a year. So, um,

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Speaker 1: here comes this bullet and it says, hey, yeah, we're

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Speaker 1: looking for people to become forward air controllers And I thought, oh,

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Speaker 1: that sounds interesting. Um a little that I know, But

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Speaker 1: so I volunteered to become an oh one bird Dog

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Speaker 1: forward air controller or fact as they call it. And

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Speaker 1: sure enough they accepted me, which you know, I guess

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Speaker 1: it shouldn't have surprised me because they needed they needed

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Speaker 1: all the help they could get over there at the time.

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Speaker 1: Um off, I went to Herbert Field down in Florida,

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Speaker 1: went through the air Ground Operations school and the flight

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Speaker 1: training and the old one bird Dog and which, by

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Speaker 1: the way, as I understand it's was the smallest airplane

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Speaker 1: in the Air Force inventory at the time. But anyway,

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Speaker 1: I did once through the crew qualification, did all the flying,

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Speaker 1: got qualified, checked out, dropped the family in Oklahoma, and

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Speaker 1: then took off out of I think it was Travis

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Speaker 1: Air Force Space and uh, you know, a few weeks

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Speaker 1: later and I flew all the way to uh into

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Speaker 1: the Philippines where I had to go through the Jungle

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Speaker 1: Survival school and of course that you know, after I

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Speaker 1: think it was a week long or ten day long course,

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Speaker 1: you know, then off we go to Vietnam. So that's

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Speaker 1: that's how I got there in an old one bird

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Speaker 1: dug right, and you know, the tactical air controller or

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Speaker 1: fat forward air controller. Nowadays those guys are on the ground, um,

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Speaker 1: much more so than the guys in the air. And

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Speaker 1: you know, um, can you talk some of our listeners

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Speaker 1: through how the changes came about with that, Because you

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Speaker 1: guys who were on the basic I mean, you're flying

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Speaker 1: in a what we would call today a piper cove.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know you see those they're they're kind

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Speaker 1: of like small pleasure craft and you've got some rockets

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Speaker 1: on that and you you're getting shot at with air

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Speaker 1: defense are are and have a machine gun fire. I

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Speaker 1: mean that that's probably why a lot of those changes

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Speaker 1: came about. Yeah, yeah, So so here's the as I mean,

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Speaker 1: of course, I've been out since I retired in nineteen

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Speaker 1: eighty three, but so if you think about it when

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Speaker 1: when I retired, So, the four air controller in Vietnam,

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Speaker 1: it was an airborne mission um, the you know, and

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Speaker 1: the Air Force four air controller. His job was to

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Speaker 1: control tactical air, putting it on the target in support

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Speaker 1: of the ground troops who were in contact. Um. Another

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Speaker 1: job he had was artillery adjustment, visual reconnaissance and in

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Speaker 1: my case I handed managed the the Asian Orange defoliation

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Speaker 1: missions for the province that I was in. So that

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Speaker 1: was another story. I think I related the book. Um,

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Speaker 1: but you have he had all these various missions, and

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Speaker 1: you know, and and these missions all kind of came

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Speaker 1: down to one thing, and that is that you control

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Speaker 1: tach air onto targets to keep the bad guys away

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Speaker 1: from the good guys. And that's what that's what you did.

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Speaker 1: Now we fast forward to today's for air controller and

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Speaker 1: these are they're no longer officers flying in the air planes.

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Speaker 1: They're enlisted men and you know n c o s

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Speaker 1: who have gone through rigorous training. And because your special

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Speaker 1: Forces that you know this, you've met them, you know

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Speaker 1: them the air the combat controllers are I mean, these

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Speaker 1: are young Air Force kids that that are you know,

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Speaker 1: qualified and special forces operations and the physical and the

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Speaker 1: mental sorts of stresses that they go through. And these

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Speaker 1: guys are embedded with you know, the troops on the ground,

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Speaker 1: and so it's a whole different world. A matter of fact,

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Speaker 1: I think one of their controllers trying to remember his name,

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Speaker 1: I think he just was reward the Medal of Honor

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Speaker 1: here a year or two ago. Uh was it was

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Speaker 1: it Chapman? Yeah, I don't remember his name. Yeah, And

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Speaker 1: he I mean, that's what a that's what a four

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Speaker 1: year controller or combat controller does today. And I'll tell

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Speaker 1: you what, My hat is off to him because at

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Speaker 1: least I was above the free and I know. So

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Speaker 1: it's it's a funny thing, Brandon. Now you said this discussion. Well,

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Speaker 1: you know, he said, well you did that, and he

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Speaker 1: was flying around and shot going. You couldn't. You were

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Speaker 1: on the ground. You know, you're hugging a tree or

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Speaker 1: in a ditch somewhere under. You know, my hat's off

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Speaker 1: to you. And he said, no, my hat's off to you.

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Speaker 1: So it's you know, it's it's just an amazing thing,

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Speaker 1: an amazing thing. Yeah. In fact, you know, um, working

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Speaker 1: with those guys, I've worked with them in the past

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Speaker 1: and they're just great people. They have a tremendous amount

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Speaker 1: of training and you not only have they been through

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Speaker 1: a lot of the same stuff that we did it

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Speaker 1: as uh you know green Berets, but I mean tactically

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Speaker 1: they hold their own, you know, as well as anybody.

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Speaker 1: And they have all this other you know, these guys

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Speaker 1: are coolest cucumbers when dealing with aircraft flying all over

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Speaker 1: the place. And you know, I remember reading the story

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Speaker 1: the guy you mentioned, Chapman, then he had like he

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Speaker 1: had a whole flew slew of aircraft in his in

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Speaker 1: his in his pattern. They're trying to coordinate all of that.

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Speaker 1: Those guys, they're they're just absolutely amazing. But getting back

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Speaker 1: to yourself, Uh, that one story about the age and

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Speaker 1: orange and how it got all inside your aircraft, I

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Speaker 1: think our listeners would appreciate a little bit of that story. Yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: so what happened there, Steve is So one of the

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Speaker 1: jobs that I had was I was coordinated the Asian

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Speaker 1: Orange defoliation for the province that I was in. Atter

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Speaker 1: of fact, I had a couple of provinces under my

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Speaker 1: responsible for. So what happens whenever they would have enemy

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Speaker 1: out there and it would be in the triple canopy jungle.

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Speaker 1: Uh you know the great minds in those days, So well,

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Speaker 1: let's just go and defoliate, uh this section of the

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Speaker 1: jungle maybe it was a forest or something or a jungle.

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Speaker 1: And then I would coordinate and with the C one

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Speaker 1: twenty three's the ranch hand missions of the air planes

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Speaker 1: and they would come in and the way we would

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Speaker 1: do it is they would they would have a time

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Speaker 1: on target where they hit an initial position and they

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Speaker 1: would start the spraying and be usually a three ship

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Speaker 1: of of these C one twenty three. They come in low.

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Speaker 1: Then there may be a few inter feet off the ground,

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Speaker 1: off the jungle, and they start spraying. My job was

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Speaker 1: I got to like a set of fighters and I'd

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Speaker 1: have overhead and I had him holding and I would

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Speaker 1: be behind the C one trees and maybe a few

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Speaker 1: inter feet above them. And as they would start to

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Speaker 1: defoliate and spray, Ah, what would happen was one of

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Speaker 1: the guys on the one being that he was down

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Speaker 1: at a couple hundred feet spraying this stuff. If he

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Speaker 1: they took ground fire, got hit, or heard any sort

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Speaker 1: of ground fire, he would throw a smoke grenade out

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Speaker 1: the back door. And when the smoke grenade hit, he

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Speaker 1: would told me that they were taking ground fire. And

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Speaker 1: I would roll in and I would be looking for

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Speaker 1: that smoke grenade for the smoke that was emanating from

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Speaker 1: the jungle. Once I saw it, then I would bring

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Speaker 1: the tactical air the left hundreds or the fours or

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Speaker 1: whatever it might have been down and I would direct

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Speaker 1: them onto that the target where the ground fire was

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Speaker 1: coming from. And that said One of the problems that

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Speaker 1: you face was now, as a young four yer controller,

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Speaker 1: I would end up diving through this spray, so this defoliation,

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Speaker 1: this agent orange, and you know, you fly the mission

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Speaker 1: and you'd come back and your land and now it

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Speaker 1: was all over with. In your landing, the crew chief

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Speaker 1: would come out and you know, your windscreen would be

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Speaker 1: it's like an oil. It's all I can say. It's

390
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Speaker 1: like a clear oil. It was just all over the windscreen,

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Speaker 1: all of the airplane, all over you, your advisor, you know.

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Speaker 1: I mean it was like you just took a bath

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Speaker 1: in the stuff. That's that's how bad I could get. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and uh, when you think about all the guys who

395
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Speaker 1: had health problems, you haven't had anything prop up from this.

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Speaker 1: Um Well, you know, no, the answer the answer is um.

397
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Speaker 1: The answer is I've got some skin issues, you know.

398
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Speaker 1: Uh yeah, So yeah, something like eggs of the type stuff.

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Speaker 1: But that's controllable with with various you know, saves and

400
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Speaker 1: annointments or whatever. The biggest thing that I think I

401
00:24:02,119 --> 00:24:04,800
Speaker 1: came away with was so like, I just got a

402
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Speaker 1: coal here the other day, and with you, so my

403
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Speaker 1: coals always tend to go to asthma and I never

404
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Speaker 1: had asthma any lung problems until I came back from Vietnam.

405
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Speaker 1: So that's that's kind of where that's about the only

406
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Speaker 1: things not the good news state I had had all

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Speaker 1: my kids, so so I wasn't so that was always

408
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Speaker 1: a big danger when you went through or were involved

409
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Speaker 1: in the aged orange stuff. Is you know, it could

410
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Speaker 1: it could be passed onto your kids. So unfortunately that

411
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Speaker 1: was all done with me. And so yeah, the stuff

412
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Speaker 1: I had is I mean, is I considered kind of minor.

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Speaker 1: It's manageable, Okay, yeah, because uh, I know that we

414
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Speaker 1: gave some of that stuff to our South American allies

415
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Speaker 1: around one of their jungle bases and I'm bennounced to

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Speaker 1: us they had sprayed around to you know, cut down

417
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Speaker 1: some of the the foliage around the base to give

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Speaker 1: them a you know, a better security perimeter. And we

419
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Speaker 1: took the troops we were training through that and I

420
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Speaker 1: was the first guy into the jungle around there, and

421
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Speaker 1: all of a sudden, from the waist down, I was

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Speaker 1: covered with this oil stuff. So I walked everyone out

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Speaker 1: of there and before and it was just a case

424
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Speaker 1: of maybe twenty minutes before I could go back and

425
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Speaker 1: peel off all the clothes because I knew right away

426
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Speaker 1: exactly what I had gone through. All the hair on

427
00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:38,119
Speaker 1: my legs and my feet just came right off, and

428
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Speaker 1: my my skin turned purple. It was like a huge sunburn,

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Speaker 1: and I just burned those clothes and boots. So and

430
00:25:48,359 --> 00:25:53,359
Speaker 1: I was lucky that day because probably t M I

431
00:25:53,720 --> 00:25:56,280
Speaker 1: was probably a little too much information there. But I

432
00:25:56,359 --> 00:26:00,679
Speaker 1: never wore underwear down in in the topics, and I

433
00:26:00,760 --> 00:26:05,040
Speaker 1: happen to be wearing it that day and glad I did. So, Uh,

434
00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 1: we'll just leave it at that. Well, those are the Yeah,

435
00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,200
Speaker 1: those are the things that you do. I mean, it's

436
00:26:14,359 --> 00:26:18,080
Speaker 1: it's we didn't know any better, right, Oh, nobody told

437
00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 1: us they had sprayed there either. I mean, well, obviously

438
00:26:21,119 --> 00:26:25,400
Speaker 1: wouldn't have walked in there, but it happened. So anyway,

439
00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:29,520
Speaker 1: I'm getting back to the forward air controller. What can

440
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 1: you talk our listeners through what maybe a typical mission

441
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 1: profile would be like, Yeah, well, um, so you had

442
00:26:40,760 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 1: you had degrees of of problems of issues, let's say,

443
00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 1: and the worst thing you could be out doing visual

444
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 1: reconnaissance so you could find maybe some bunkers or some

445
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,160
Speaker 1: trenches that and so you could bring in tactical air

446
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 1: at least would be like F four's F one hunders

447
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,560
Speaker 1: a ones you name it, or even eight fours from

448
00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:06,200
Speaker 1: the Navy, and you bring them in and they would

449
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: drop their bombs or there, you know, on these particular targets.

450
00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: So if you've got um enemy positions, that's one level

451
00:27:16,600 --> 00:27:22,359
Speaker 1: of a problematic. That's one level of problems. The top

452
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:25,240
Speaker 1: level problem that you ran into is when you had

453
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 1: friendly troops in contact. When you had troops in contact,

454
00:27:30,040 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: that's when that's when you started getting into the deep Kimshi.

455
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: You know, this is where this is where you've got

456
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:40,480
Speaker 1: your friendly guys on the ground and they're fighting it

457
00:27:40,560 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: out and slugging it out, uh, and you've got to

458
00:27:43,320 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 1: come in and you've got to get the tactical air

459
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:50,680
Speaker 1: or the bombers to strafe or to drop napalm or

460
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:56,520
Speaker 1: to bomb uh near the friendly troops. And so you

461
00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,080
Speaker 1: know what I always do did, and I think most

462
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: of the facts did in order to try to avoid uh,

463
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 1: you know, getting you know, getting any trendy troops hit

464
00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:08,919
Speaker 1: by by our friendly air. What you do is you

465
00:28:09,080 --> 00:28:11,560
Speaker 1: hold my position to hold directly over the top of

466
00:28:11,560 --> 00:28:14,960
Speaker 1: the friendly troops that way, they fighters would have to

467
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 1: come almost through me to get you know, to drop

468
00:28:17,160 --> 00:28:21,280
Speaker 1: a bomber erratically. But you also try to make sure

469
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,119
Speaker 1: that that the fighters on there what they call run

470
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: in heading. Uh. It was parallel to the line of

471
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 1: troops that you had. So the friendly troops are lined

472
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:33,560
Speaker 1: up in a certain way, and you want to make

473
00:28:33,600 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: sure that the bombers didn't kind of bomb perpendicular because

474
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 1: that's how you can get a short run or something.

475
00:28:39,520 --> 00:28:41,880
Speaker 1: So that was always a big, big concern for us.

476
00:28:42,320 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: So long story short, UH, if I had troops in

477
00:28:45,160 --> 00:28:49,960
Speaker 1: contact or a convoy convoy being ambushed, my job would

478
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:53,440
Speaker 1: be to get out there and get tactical air and

479
00:28:53,600 --> 00:28:57,200
Speaker 1: support them. Now, if I couldn't get tactical air, then

480
00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:00,480
Speaker 1: I was able to Like in the case in the

481
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 1: in the book that I related, uh, I get after

482
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:07,000
Speaker 1: the Special Forces camp where the camp was being probed

483
00:29:07,120 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: by enemy all night long, and I got out there

484
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 1: in the morning and started adjusting artillery from some friendly

485
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 1: you know, some friendly artillery batteries into the region around

486
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 1: the airfield, around the Special Forces camp and into the jungle.

487
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:27,400
Speaker 1: So I that's the other thing you did to try

488
00:29:27,400 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 1: to keep the bad guys away from the good guys, right,

489
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:35,120
Speaker 1: and uh, you know one of these missions around Special

490
00:29:35,160 --> 00:29:40,760
Speaker 1: Forces Camp, you were awarded the the Flying Cross And

491
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: I believe that was Thanksgiving nine. Can you fill our

492
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 1: listeners in a little bit about that one. Yeah, that

493
00:29:49,880 --> 00:29:51,840
Speaker 1: was kind of the day of all days one't that?

494
00:29:52,320 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: And when I first started writing this this book, by

495
00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,480
Speaker 1: the way, as I mentioned the catalysts of the book,

496
00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:03,320
Speaker 1: was was Brandon Webb and my wife and um and

497
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: and I'll get to it in a minute here it

498
00:30:05,240 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: was how I really got cranked into this book. But

499
00:30:08,760 --> 00:30:14,520
Speaker 1: there was Thanksgiving Day and excuse me, don't mean the

500
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,000
Speaker 1: coff in the ear there. But I was called out

501
00:30:17,560 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: to the camp. And as I headed out to the camp,

502
00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 1: um Special Forces camp was called duck Lop and it's

503
00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:31,040
Speaker 1: about maybe maybe five clicks kilometers or so from the

504
00:30:31,120 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: Cambodian border there in Vietnam. And as I got out there, um,

505
00:30:37,000 --> 00:30:38,960
Speaker 1: one of the problems, one of the problems I had

506
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 1: was the weather was really low, so I was having

507
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: difficulty getting into the area where the camp was, which

508
00:30:46,360 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: so I started trying to navigate visually because we didn't

509
00:30:49,840 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: have any instruments. So you're you're doing it by looking

510
00:30:52,680 --> 00:30:57,760
Speaker 1: at the topographic map and trying to navigate, looking at

511
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,280
Speaker 1: a jungle, you know, looking at road, trying to figure

512
00:31:01,320 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: out where you were over the ground, and and you

513
00:31:04,680 --> 00:31:07,400
Speaker 1: try to try to navigate myself and get into this

514
00:31:08,040 --> 00:31:10,800
Speaker 1: region of this area where the Special Forces camp was.

515
00:31:11,000 --> 00:31:14,600
Speaker 1: But the problem was the weather kept getting lower and

516
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:17,560
Speaker 1: lower and lower from the point where it was probably

517
00:31:17,640 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 1: just a couple feet off the off the jungle that

518
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:23,960
Speaker 1: the overcast was. But I managed to I managed to

519
00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:28,920
Speaker 1: find a kind of a depression, was a creek bed

520
00:31:29,040 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: or a small river or something that was moving in

521
00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,840
Speaker 1: the general direction I wanted to go. So I kind

522
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 1: of got down. I was able to get down a

523
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 1: little bit below the clouds, maybe fifty ft below the

524
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: this overcast, and I was I decided I was going

525
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 1: to drive, you know, time and distance. I was going

526
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 1: to drive for about a minute two minutes, see if

527
00:31:48,880 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 1: I could come up near this valley or anywhere near there,

528
00:31:52,000 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: or get in a bit of weather conditions. So as

529
00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:57,000
Speaker 1: I got down there, all of a sudden, I was

530
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: getting ready to turn around. I was because I was

531
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: thinking myself, this I'm not gonna make it. So just

532
00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 1: about that time I'll be darned if I didn't pop

533
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:10,920
Speaker 1: across a little road and the terrain below me kind

534
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: of dropped a bit, and I was in the valley.

535
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 1: I was not more than half a mile from this

536
00:32:15,760 --> 00:32:19,800
Speaker 1: Special Forces camp. It took one so now here I am.

537
00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,520
Speaker 1: And just about that time I popped in there, I

538
00:32:22,520 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: guess at the NBA probably wasn't more than a minute

539
00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: or so, and they realized that there was an airplane

540
00:32:29,720 --> 00:32:33,000
Speaker 1: flying around the camp, and they decided, let's let's take

541
00:32:33,040 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 1: this guy out. So I started getting taking ground fire

542
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:40,760
Speaker 1: from the two of these uh um, you know, but

543
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:44,360
Speaker 1: it's twelve point seven million. It's a fifty one caliber

544
00:32:44,960 --> 00:32:48,960
Speaker 1: any aircraft kind of the the Russians built in the

545
00:32:49,080 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 1: Chinese everybody uses in those days. Anyway, that the these

546
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:55,560
Speaker 1: two twelve sevens opened up, I mean one from near

547
00:32:55,600 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: the airfield and in one behind me near the road

548
00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:02,640
Speaker 1: that I just crossed, and a couple of those two

549
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 1: anti aircraft weapons which they were firing green traces, so

550
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:07,840
Speaker 1: you can watch them as they came up at you.

551
00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,320
Speaker 1: And then a couple that with the fact that you've

552
00:33:11,360 --> 00:33:12,920
Speaker 1: got a bunch of guys down there. I don't know

553
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 1: what it was a platoon or you know, a few

554
00:33:15,400 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: squads or whatever it was around the area, and they're

555
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,240
Speaker 1: all shooting at you with a K forty seven. So

556
00:33:21,280 --> 00:33:23,880
Speaker 1: it's uh and you can hear it. You could hear

557
00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 1: the A K s, but you could see the anti

558
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 1: aircraft guns, so you knew what you were into. And

559
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: all you could do was start cross controlling the airplane,

560
00:33:34,720 --> 00:33:37,000
Speaker 1: jink and moving the airplane around. And by the way,

561
00:33:37,080 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: jinking is just means just constantly turning the airplane to

562
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: keep from getting hit. So I did that for a while.

563
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 1: And while I was doing that, I was adjusting artillery

564
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:52,440
Speaker 1: onto the onto the sites around the near the camp,

565
00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 1: around the airfield and things like that. And then right

566
00:33:56,240 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: about that time, the talk over there at the at

567
00:33:59,040 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: the camp call me and says, hey, we've got a

568
00:34:01,400 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: couple of helicopters and gun ships coming in, and they

569
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:06,920
Speaker 1: would you know, they're gonna be able to help you

570
00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,239
Speaker 1: out here, and they're gonna suppress some of the anti

571
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 1: aircraft fire and some of the small arms. So they

572
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,560
Speaker 1: came flying in and I gave him a quick griefing

573
00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:21,000
Speaker 1: about the problems that I was having with the anti

574
00:34:21,040 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: aircraft and where the guns were located, and I told him,

575
00:34:24,600 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 1: I said, don't fly in that area, fly over in

576
00:34:27,480 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: this area. But the young ward officers, you know, they

577
00:34:31,160 --> 00:34:34,000
Speaker 1: were they were just gung ho and and a great

578
00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:37,840
Speaker 1: bunch of kids. They took off, and the first number

579
00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 1: one guy was I forget. He was a wolf pack.

580
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 1: I think it was called wolf pack. He ends up

581
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 1: strafing on his initial run in with rockets and machine guns,

582
00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 1: and I'll be darn if he didn't get shot down

583
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:53,520
Speaker 1: right in front of me. I mean, he isn't. He

584
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:56,279
Speaker 1: isn't more than a few hundred yards in front of

585
00:34:56,280 --> 00:35:00,160
Speaker 1: me as he's going in, and he makes a kind

586
00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:04,360
Speaker 1: of a quick right hand turn and auto rotates and

587
00:35:04,560 --> 00:35:09,120
Speaker 1: kind of crash lands right right below me. So there

588
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:11,960
Speaker 1: I was with now a helicopter crew on the ground.

589
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 1: I've got another helicopter behind me, and he's he wants

590
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 1: to get in and get these kids out of there.

591
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: And so and I'm talking to the talk and I'm

592
00:35:22,000 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 1: talking about twenty five people. You know, you know, we've

593
00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:26,200
Speaker 1: gotta we gotta get some help in here to get

594
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:30,160
Speaker 1: these folks out. And so for the next maybe twenty

595
00:35:30,280 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: or so minutes, and we decided, how are we going

596
00:35:32,560 --> 00:35:35,000
Speaker 1: to get these guys out. In the meantime, the guys

597
00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 1: on the ground, Steve had jumped out of their chopper.

598
00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: There are four of them, polit polit there was two gunners,

599
00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: and they jumped out, and He's took up defensive positions

600
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,160
Speaker 1: around the chopper. And then it didn't take them long.

601
00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:54,800
Speaker 1: And then I went in and I I kind of

602
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:58,320
Speaker 1: dropped my A R fifteen out the side window, and

603
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: I started shooting this tree line that was out to

604
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,400
Speaker 1: their west. And so then now they knew where the

605
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: enemy bad guys were. They were in the trenches under

606
00:36:07,200 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 1: the trees. And so they two guys, a doorgun and

607
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:14,160
Speaker 1: the pilot are treated and all four of them got

608
00:36:14,160 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 1: into a ditch on the kind of on the other

609
00:36:16,600 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 1: side of the helicopter. And meantime, I'm talking to the

610
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:25,400
Speaker 1: second helicopter and he's going to go and make a

611
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:28,600
Speaker 1: kind of a dash and pick up of this four

612
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:31,319
Speaker 1: guys on the ground. So I said, before you do that,

613
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 1: I said, what I'll do is I'll roll in ahead

614
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: of you. I'll unloaded some rockets. You know, I had

615
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:43,240
Speaker 1: a couple of White Foster's rockets left. I'll unload those

616
00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:46,759
Speaker 1: and then I'll swing around and lead you back in,

617
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:49,919
Speaker 1: and I'll just try to keep their heads done by,

618
00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:52,240
Speaker 1: you know, unloading out the side of the side window

619
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,200
Speaker 1: of my airplane with my A R fifteen. So I'm

620
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 1: going in, um maybe a couple hundred feet above the ground,

621
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,680
Speaker 1: and I'm as I'm flying in, shooting out the side

622
00:37:01,680 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: of the airplane, UH number two helicopter wolf pack. The

623
00:37:05,719 --> 00:37:09,439
Speaker 1: number two guy, he comes swooping in. He takes some hits,

624
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:13,080
Speaker 1: but he's okay, still fliable, and he lands. But four

625
00:37:13,080 --> 00:37:15,640
Speaker 1: guys jumped into his helicopter, and then they got the

626
00:37:15,640 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 1: heck out of there right now. And they as they

627
00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:22,239
Speaker 1: pulled off and they crossed the road, they crossed right

628
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,560
Speaker 1: over the top of the fifty at twelve point seven

629
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 1: aircraft gun and but that the guy couldn't get a

630
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:32,760
Speaker 1: beat on him. So anyway, they pulled off and headed

631
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:36,760
Speaker 1: back towards Bammy to It, which was up maybe minutes

632
00:37:36,800 --> 00:37:40,480
Speaker 1: up the road. I then swung off and I called

633
00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:42,440
Speaker 1: it a day because I've been up to fly around

634
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: for over four and a half hours and plane and

635
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:46,640
Speaker 1: so was supposed to fly for four and a half hours.

636
00:37:47,400 --> 00:37:51,319
Speaker 1: We got much calf and so we were puddling off

637
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:55,760
Speaker 1: and I'm heading back and next thing I know, because

638
00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 1: the helicopter was faster than my bird dog, I'm climb

639
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 1: it up and here comes these these guys were all

640
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 1: eight of them now on this shot up second helicopter,

641
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:08,120
Speaker 1: and they pull up alongside of me, giving me the

642
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:12,520
Speaker 1: thumbs up. It was, it was, it was all you

643
00:38:12,560 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 1: could ask for. You knew where they were fine, they

644
00:38:14,480 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 1: were all good. And they made it back, and they

645
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 1: made it back to the you know, back to Bammy

646
00:38:21,560 --> 00:38:25,200
Speaker 1: to It, and I managed to get climb up to

647
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:28,680
Speaker 1: about a thousand feet and it was putting along for

648
00:38:28,800 --> 00:38:31,520
Speaker 1: a Bammy to It and having leaned the airplane out

649
00:38:31,560 --> 00:38:33,799
Speaker 1: as much as I could, trying to save as much

650
00:38:33,840 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 1: gas as I could. And anyway, I got as the

651
00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:40,280
Speaker 1: runaway there at Bammy Too had disparted into my nose

652
00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 1: just somebody dropped full flaps, pointed the nose over and

653
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,799
Speaker 1: brought you brought it back to idle, and I just

654
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 1: headed for the end of the runway. I land the airplane,

655
00:38:51,680 --> 00:38:55,280
Speaker 1: I turned off in the first invetment, which is our revetments.

656
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:59,000
Speaker 1: We're going to park the airplane, and ran out of gas.

657
00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:03,480
Speaker 1: I know in reading that story in the book, I

658
00:39:03,520 --> 00:39:08,239
Speaker 1: can um. I can tell you I was like, yeah,

659
00:39:08,239 --> 00:39:10,120
Speaker 1: I first of all, I thought it was amazing that

660
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:14,560
Speaker 1: the helicopter was faster than your plane and where the

661
00:39:14,600 --> 00:39:17,840
Speaker 1: guys pulled up beside you and we're waving to you

662
00:39:17,920 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 1: and giving you the thumbs up. And then then your

663
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,719
Speaker 1: plane runs out of gas as soon as you basically

664
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 1: hit the ground, which is like, that's not a lot

665
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:32,719
Speaker 1: of leeway in that, you know scenario. But you did

666
00:39:32,800 --> 00:39:35,680
Speaker 1: what you had to do, and you you hung out

667
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,160
Speaker 1: on target there for the entire the entire time, and

668
00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 1: you said you had I got four and a half

669
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 1: hour lawyer time. I think that was yeah, as I recalled,

670
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,719
Speaker 1: the old one had a it had you know, four

671
00:39:50,760 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: and a half hours, five hour or something like that.

672
00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 1: But you know, we got a lot of stuff hanging

673
00:39:55,239 --> 00:39:59,160
Speaker 1: off of it, you getting rockets and you know, things

674
00:39:59,200 --> 00:40:01,719
Speaker 1: like that. So so you're right around four and a

675
00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,160
Speaker 1: half hours was supposed to be about the amount of

676
00:40:04,760 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 1: time he had on to laiter. And so what you

677
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,879
Speaker 1: would do is I was always tell, you know, taught

678
00:40:10,920 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: by some of those guys that I flew the one

679
00:40:13,200 --> 00:40:17,120
Speaker 1: with and um and and guys, and I threw the

680
00:40:17,120 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: sea forty seven with things like that. You know, they

681
00:40:19,719 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: always they always took care of their engines. They always

682
00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:23,960
Speaker 1: leaned it out. You didn't want to run too rich.

683
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:27,319
Speaker 1: So I was always in the habit of kind of

684
00:40:27,400 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: leaning out, um, you know, the you know, the engine,

685
00:40:32,440 --> 00:40:34,600
Speaker 1: so that I could get as much time and distance

686
00:40:34,600 --> 00:40:36,480
Speaker 1: and laid time I thought the plain as I could.

687
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 1: That's interesting because you know when I read that, I

688
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,000
Speaker 1: was like, wow, you talked about because a lot of

689
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: times you hear pilots say, well, I have built in reserve,

690
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,759
Speaker 1: but then that was long gone by that time, so yeah,

691
00:40:53,800 --> 00:41:00,319
Speaker 1: there was nothing left now, you know. I you know,

692
00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:01,719
Speaker 1: reading in the book, and I don't want to give

693
00:41:01,760 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 1: too much away because we want our readers and listeners

694
00:41:06,120 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: to to purchase this. Um did you have I mean,

695
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:14,760
Speaker 1: you had a lot of interaction via the radio talking

696
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,919
Speaker 1: to these Special Forces camps. Did you ever actually get

697
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,839
Speaker 1: to meet some of these guys after the fact, after

698
00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:24,360
Speaker 1: you've helped them out? Oh? Yeah, absolutely. A matter of fact,

699
00:41:24,360 --> 00:41:28,799
Speaker 1: I think there's a picture in the book. Um, excuse me,

700
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: got that cough again. There's a picture in the book

701
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:37,440
Speaker 1: of I think it was some time and I want

702
00:41:37,440 --> 00:41:40,560
Speaker 1: to say it was January of seventy when something the

703
00:41:40,560 --> 00:41:43,719
Speaker 1: Special Forces guys from the boot Pray Special Forces Camp,

704
00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 1: which was up even closer to the Cambodian border than

705
00:41:47,120 --> 00:41:50,920
Speaker 1: the Duke Lap was. But um, you guys, if you've

706
00:41:50,960 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: ever heard of Firebase Kate M, Firebase Kate was kind

707
00:41:54,560 --> 00:41:59,040
Speaker 1: of a famous because the Special Forces guy, his name

708
00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 1: was all Breck he he uh had to escape in

709
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,880
Speaker 1: evade with his entire group off of this firebase and

710
00:42:08,000 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 1: made his way back to to the boot Prank Special

711
00:42:10,960 --> 00:42:15,520
Speaker 1: Forces camp. And so the guys at Boo Prank we

712
00:42:15,640 --> 00:42:18,960
Speaker 1: supported them through. I think it was October November September

713
00:42:19,000 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 1: October November of sixty nine, and so excuse me, the

714
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:30,239
Speaker 1: seventy January seventy we uh they were down at the

715
00:42:30,440 --> 00:42:37,240
Speaker 1: Ganeau compound where I was stationed. Anyways, Um what happened

716
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:39,680
Speaker 1: was they came in, we had like a little party

717
00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:42,920
Speaker 1: and they gave us a plaque, which I've got somewhere around.

718
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 1: I gets at my house up in Reno, and the

719
00:42:45,280 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 1: plaques says, you know, hey, thanks for saving our butts

720
00:42:48,360 --> 00:42:51,640
Speaker 1: and you know, and I think the plaques says something

721
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,960
Speaker 1: to quote from someone that says, you've never really lived

722
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:59,480
Speaker 1: to you almost died. For those who uh some about

723
00:43:00,040 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 1: my life, you know, the protective will never know what

724
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:05,840
Speaker 1: it's like to go through and sort of here is that.

725
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,319
Speaker 1: My wife's got it here so I can if I

726
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:17,360
Speaker 1: can read it, it says, yeah, yeah, so it's Gottain, Mike, Leonard,

727
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:22,040
Speaker 1: duck Lap and bou Prang Team's sixty October duck Lap.

728
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,000
Speaker 1: It says you've never really lived to you've almost died

729
00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 1: for those who have fucked. Life has a flavor the

730
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: protective will never taste. And it was kind of cool

731
00:43:31,640 --> 00:43:37,520
Speaker 1: a little plaque that gave it's got SUPI on its Yeah,

732
00:43:37,560 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 1: that's great. I want you know, and I love stories

733
00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 1: where some crazy things and strange things, humorous things can

734
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:53,799
Speaker 1: happen even in the most series of circumstances. And there

735
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:57,360
Speaker 1: was one in your book that I cracked up laughing

736
00:43:57,440 --> 00:44:02,759
Speaker 1: because it's like you saw, uh, you know, nv A

737
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:06,719
Speaker 1: soldiers crossing an open field, so you're getting ready to

738
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,200
Speaker 1: call in a tactical as strike, and then then you

739
00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:13,920
Speaker 1: noticed they started walking on their hands. Yeah, that that

740
00:44:14,000 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 1: was that was exhilarating, and then all of a sudden

741
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: it became embarrassing. You know. That's that's how that would uh.

742
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: And there's a little anecdote I don't know if I

743
00:44:24,520 --> 00:44:26,239
Speaker 1: put in the book, but it's it's kind of cute.

744
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:29,800
Speaker 1: So the situation was, I think it was like nineteen

745
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:32,759
Speaker 1: seventy and I was up around boot Prang and I

746
00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: was just doing some visual reconsts work, flying around the jumble,

747
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:41,200
Speaker 1: and um, I looked. I looked down at this kind

748
00:44:41,239 --> 00:44:45,360
Speaker 1: of the savannah grass area and I see these I

749
00:44:45,440 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 1: see these NBA troops and they're running across this field

750
00:44:48,360 --> 00:44:50,640
Speaker 1: and I'm thinking, what the hell you know? I just

751
00:44:51,480 --> 00:44:55,480
Speaker 1: I reached out to over my VHF radio called back

752
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 1: to my command post. I said, hey, give me some

753
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:59,280
Speaker 1: tag here, I said, I get troops in the open,

754
00:45:01,000 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 1: And so I decided to dive in and you know,

755
00:45:03,440 --> 00:45:06,200
Speaker 1: just take a look at it. I went down and

756
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: as I was getting closer to him, I realized that

757
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 1: these guys were kind of running on all four as

758
00:45:11,920 --> 00:45:15,760
Speaker 1: opposed to running on just two legs. And they got closer,

759
00:45:15,760 --> 00:45:19,239
Speaker 1: I realized it was a herd of baboon. I'm not

760
00:45:19,239 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 1: sure if that's the right stature. There were a bunch

761
00:45:22,080 --> 00:45:25,960
Speaker 1: of baboon, and so I thought, oh, so I pulled

762
00:45:25,960 --> 00:45:28,480
Speaker 1: back off and said, forget about it. You know, we're

763
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,280
Speaker 1: not gonna be blowing up a bunch of poor animals.

764
00:45:31,280 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 1: So so they canceled the flight. And so what happened

765
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 1: was we're going to fast forward to like nineteen I

766
00:45:41,160 --> 00:45:44,800
Speaker 1: think it was six and I was back in Vietnam,

767
00:45:44,880 --> 00:45:48,240
Speaker 1: and I had an agent and his sister was riding

768
00:45:48,239 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: with my wife and I and we were leaving Saigon

769
00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 1: and we're going up through the Bottle Lock, which is

770
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 1: where I was originally stationed, and then up to the lot,

771
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 1: and we're going to spend the weekend up at the

772
00:46:03,040 --> 00:46:06,920
Speaker 1: lot in the central Highlands. It's it's a beautiful location.

773
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,719
Speaker 1: And as we went through Baulock, I was relating the

774
00:46:10,840 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 1: story to the young Vietnamese woman who was our agents sister,

775
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:19,920
Speaker 1: and I said, you know, explain the story about the

776
00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 1: bab boon. She says, oh, we don't. We don't have

777
00:46:22,280 --> 00:46:27,799
Speaker 1: any babboon in Vietnam. And I went, I said, well,

778
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:29,880
Speaker 1: yes you do. I mean I saw him, I was,

779
00:46:30,000 --> 00:46:33,359
Speaker 1: I mean I always shot him up. Oh no, I don't.

780
00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,560
Speaker 1: I don't think we have any baboon in Vietnam. And Steve,

781
00:46:37,040 --> 00:46:41,000
Speaker 1: it was almost like somebody said, hey, que the baboon

782
00:46:41,480 --> 00:46:45,319
Speaker 1: because across in front of the car, as we all,

783
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:50,279
Speaker 1: the driver, the agents, the gal Linda, we all see

784
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,839
Speaker 1: this big baboon run right across in front of the car.

785
00:46:54,840 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 1: It was it was like, see, I told you I

786
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 1: knew there was a baboon here. He must have been,

787
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 1: you know, monitoring the conversation and he was like, okay,

788
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 1: time to show this woman we do live here. The

789
00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:18,440
Speaker 1: baboon soom um. And uh you flew now, you flew

790
00:47:18,520 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: bird dogs in Vietnam, and then you transition to the

791
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 1: largest aircraft in the Air Force inventory, the C five.

792
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 1: I can't imagine what that was like after flying bird dogs,

793
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: you know basically but yeah, I mean you talked about

794
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 1: I mean, there wasn't a lot of avionics on there.

795
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 1: There was no aiming points for your rockets you talked about.

796
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:45,799
Speaker 1: There was just basically a little welded pull on the

797
00:47:45,800 --> 00:47:48,399
Speaker 1: calling and then you had grease pencil where you kind

798
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:52,799
Speaker 1: of did your marketings. Transitioning that to a C five

799
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,360
Speaker 1: had to have been like flying the Space Shuttle, I guess.

800
00:47:58,880 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 1: So yeah, so that so it that was a really

801
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 1: interesting I thought I always suck at some some you

802
00:48:05,760 --> 00:48:09,160
Speaker 1: know satus that the Air Force Personnel Center and decided,

803
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:11,239
Speaker 1: I'm gonna, you know, we're just gonna do this to

804
00:48:11,320 --> 00:48:13,319
Speaker 1: this poor guy. You know, We're gonna take him out

805
00:48:13,320 --> 00:48:15,200
Speaker 1: of the smallest airplane in the mentor and put him

806
00:48:15,200 --> 00:48:17,359
Speaker 1: in the at the time, the largest airplane in the world.

807
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,440
Speaker 1: Let's see if you can transition, you know, laugh. But

808
00:48:20,800 --> 00:48:25,480
Speaker 1: what happens is, UM I got assigned to Charleston Air

809
00:48:25,520 --> 00:48:29,200
Speaker 1: Force Base in South Carolina, and I was. I had

810
00:48:29,200 --> 00:48:32,000
Speaker 1: to go through the what they called the training center

811
00:48:32,040 --> 00:48:37,759
Speaker 1: at at Oklahoma, at Alphas, Oklahoma, and they put me

812
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:42,360
Speaker 1: in a class with all uh initial cabre people, meaning

813
00:48:42,800 --> 00:48:45,880
Speaker 1: these were the first pilots to actually be flying this airplane.

814
00:48:45,880 --> 00:48:49,560
Speaker 1: And I was, I was in this class of guys

815
00:48:49,560 --> 00:48:53,240
Speaker 1: that were all, you know, high time multi engine pilots.

816
00:48:53,840 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 1: And here I am. I'm coming out of Vietnam and

817
00:48:57,120 --> 00:49:01,799
Speaker 1: my experiences and multi engine receipt the old Hockey constellation

818
00:49:01,880 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 1: days and see forty seven, and now I'm flying and

819
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:08,839
Speaker 1: a bird dog of course, smaller plan and now I'm

820
00:49:08,840 --> 00:49:11,759
Speaker 1: going to be going to multi engine jet, not just

821
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:15,719
Speaker 1: multi engine jet, but the biggest multange and jet. So

822
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 1: so there I was, UH and it was a it

823
00:49:19,440 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 1: was a real interesting time. Uh. To be quite frank

824
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 1: with you, the guy that I as instructor part of

825
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:29,800
Speaker 1: it at Sea five School in Alpice, his name was Johnson.

826
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:35,879
Speaker 1: He he was as he was just so calm, cool

827
00:49:35,920 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 1: and collected. He simply said to me, you know, this

828
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:42,920
Speaker 1: is no different then flying the other playing the old

829
00:49:42,960 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 1: one bird dog, he says. The only differences your site

830
00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:48,800
Speaker 1: picture is going to change me your landing picture, meaning

831
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:51,759
Speaker 1: when you when the bird dog, you might be looking

832
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: out to your left and right front as you land,

833
00:49:54,920 --> 00:49:56,719
Speaker 1: he says. When you land a big airplane like this,

834
00:49:56,840 --> 00:50:00,279
Speaker 1: your thirty thirty thirty five ft in the air when

835
00:50:00,280 --> 00:50:03,279
Speaker 1: you touchdown, he says, And so when you go into

836
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:06,560
Speaker 1: the flare and you go to land, keep your vision

837
00:50:06,560 --> 00:50:08,080
Speaker 1: at the other end of the runway because that's the

838
00:50:08,120 --> 00:50:10,040
Speaker 1: only way you're gonna be able to judge the closure

839
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:13,960
Speaker 1: rate of the europlane onto the runway. Once. Once I

840
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,120
Speaker 1: kind of got that to my my thick skull, it

841
00:50:17,160 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 1: became just another airplane. Mm hmm. Yeah. Having lived down

842
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:27,279
Speaker 1: in Charleston after my army days were over, as I

843
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:31,160
Speaker 1: as I told you offline, um, I lived right near

844
00:50:31,239 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: the ends of the runway down there, and watching those

845
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 1: big ones come in our condo at the time was

846
00:50:37,560 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 1: right there, and it's amazing how big those things are.

847
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:44,960
Speaker 1: I got to fly on one, but you know, watching

848
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,120
Speaker 1: them from the ground it's always amazing because they don't

849
00:50:48,120 --> 00:50:50,680
Speaker 1: even look like they're moving. They're so big and it

850
00:50:50,760 --> 00:50:53,439
Speaker 1: as you you mentioned in the book, I think our

851
00:50:53,480 --> 00:50:57,160
Speaker 1: listeners will get a kick out of the nickname you

852
00:50:57,160 --> 00:51:01,000
Speaker 1: guys gave it. Yeah, we we have. We call it

853
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 1: the aluminium overcast because it looked like it was just

854
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:07,399
Speaker 1: this huge sheet piece of sheet metal that hung over

855
00:51:07,440 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 1: this over your above in the sky. It was amazing. Now,

856
00:51:11,880 --> 00:51:14,360
Speaker 1: I'm you know, with all the years it's in thousands

857
00:51:14,360 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 1: of hours you had flying, is there one experience that

858
00:51:18,239 --> 00:51:25,360
Speaker 1: probably you chalk up as your most fun uh, of

859
00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:31,160
Speaker 1: all the airplanes that flew um. Yeah, the as far

860
00:51:31,239 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 1: as this basic flying, you there was no way you

861
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,560
Speaker 1: could beat the flying you did in Vietnam. I mean,

862
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:40,160
Speaker 1: if you took away the war, he took away all

863
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:42,080
Speaker 1: the people trying to kill you and you're trying to

864
00:51:42,120 --> 00:51:46,360
Speaker 1: kill them. You took all that away. That kind of flying,

865
00:51:46,920 --> 00:51:50,440
Speaker 1: that sea the pants flying was about as good as

866
00:51:50,480 --> 00:51:54,680
Speaker 1: it gets. It's you and the airplane and you're on

867
00:51:54,719 --> 00:51:57,239
Speaker 1: your own and you love that. When you get into

868
00:51:57,400 --> 00:52:00,440
Speaker 1: Crewe airplanes, then you've got a bunch of their folks

869
00:52:00,440 --> 00:52:03,799
Speaker 1: that are helping you, and you're coordinating things constantly, and

870
00:52:03,840 --> 00:52:05,600
Speaker 1: so it's a different it's a kind of a different

871
00:52:05,600 --> 00:52:09,080
Speaker 1: ball game. But as far as puriflying, you couldn't beat

872
00:52:09,120 --> 00:52:15,280
Speaker 1: the bird dog, excellent. And then after your military career

873
00:52:15,400 --> 00:52:19,799
Speaker 1: was over, you have the opportunity to travel with your

874
00:52:19,840 --> 00:52:22,640
Speaker 1: wife back to Vietnam and you actually got to visit

875
00:52:22,680 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 1: some of the places, um that you had been stationed in.

876
00:52:26,920 --> 00:52:29,839
Speaker 1: What was that like? I mean, you know, and and

877
00:52:29,840 --> 00:52:34,720
Speaker 1: again as as we talked offline before the podcast began,

878
00:52:35,560 --> 00:52:38,880
Speaker 1: you know, I had mentioned to you I had spoken

879
00:52:38,920 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 1: with several veterans from the Vietnam War and they all

880
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 1: said the same thing that it's such a gorgeous country.

881
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:48,000
Speaker 1: If there hadn't been a war there back in the

882
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:50,640
Speaker 1: time when they were there in the you know, sixties

883
00:52:50,640 --> 00:52:53,520
Speaker 1: and early seventies, that it would have been a tremendous

884
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:55,880
Speaker 1: place to visit. What was it like to go back?

885
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 1: Was there a lot of conflicting emotions there? You know,

886
00:52:59,680 --> 00:53:02,760
Speaker 1: as a very good questions even and the the fact

887
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,879
Speaker 1: is that I was very, very lucky to be able

888
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:08,960
Speaker 1: to go back, as a lot of people didn't want

889
00:53:08,960 --> 00:53:12,280
Speaker 1: to go back because of the trauma. I I kind

890
00:53:12,320 --> 00:53:16,120
Speaker 1: of when it comes to things like PTSD in the trauma,

891
00:53:16,800 --> 00:53:19,279
Speaker 1: I tend to want to face it kind of head on.

892
00:53:19,360 --> 00:53:21,759
Speaker 1: I don't want to bury things. And so I had

893
00:53:21,800 --> 00:53:27,280
Speaker 1: an opportunity with my company excuse me, to go back

894
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 1: and UM, but I decided that probably near on the

895
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:35,360
Speaker 1: side of caution, I would take my wife with me.

896
00:53:35,480 --> 00:53:38,680
Speaker 1: So she was the She was actually the person that

897
00:53:38,800 --> 00:53:42,960
Speaker 1: kind of softened the issues and the edges of the

898
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:50,000
Speaker 1: travels back there in six mm. Hm, that's great. And

899
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 1: you know the way you described your wife, Um in

900
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 1: different parts of the book, of how she was supportive

901
00:53:58,719 --> 00:54:01,879
Speaker 1: to the point of going to bath for you. And

902
00:54:02,239 --> 00:54:04,479
Speaker 1: again we don't give up too much of the book,

903
00:54:04,960 --> 00:54:08,719
Speaker 1: sounds like a very strong lady. Oh my god, you

904
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 1: wouldn't believe it. But yeah, you know, when we went

905
00:54:11,280 --> 00:54:15,560
Speaker 1: back into Vietnam, it was interesting. Um. She was. I

906
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:18,279
Speaker 1: think she was blown away even more than I was

907
00:54:18,360 --> 00:54:22,839
Speaker 1: because she she really got into the culture and by

908
00:54:22,840 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 1: the way, the country, as you said, just magnificent, beautiful,

909
00:54:28,840 --> 00:54:32,359
Speaker 1: beautiful jungles and mountains, and it's just a marvelous place.

910
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:35,719
Speaker 1: The people, I swear to God, you know, if it

911
00:54:35,760 --> 00:54:38,839
Speaker 1: weren't for the war, the people are wonderful. They're they

912
00:54:38,840 --> 00:54:42,799
Speaker 1: were one of the interesting stories. We came back into

913
00:54:42,880 --> 00:54:49,120
Speaker 1: through customs and on our first trip in and um,

914
00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,160
Speaker 1: when I got to when we got to the customs

915
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:56,440
Speaker 1: at the Saigon airport, they called Ocheta city. Now. Anyway,

916
00:54:56,520 --> 00:55:00,920
Speaker 1: we got there and we were going to customers, and

917
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: the customs guy said something in Vietnamese too, give me

918
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:09,880
Speaker 1: to my translator. And the translator said, they want to

919
00:55:09,960 --> 00:55:15,680
Speaker 1: know if you're Russian. And my wife says, nope, we're American.

920
00:55:17,920 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: And he looked and he went and like surprised, and

921
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,359
Speaker 1: and I was like, everybody in the whole place Americans.

922
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:32,239
Speaker 1: They're back, Yeah we can. Where have you been? So

923
00:55:32,600 --> 00:55:37,280
Speaker 1: they were very warm, very cordial. We just the people

924
00:55:37,360 --> 00:55:39,920
Speaker 1: themselves were just they couldn't have been just any nicer.

925
00:55:41,040 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 1: That's awesome. Um, you know. And and I've heard from

926
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: different people who have traveled there from one reason or another,

927
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:53,240
Speaker 1: that there there is no animosity lingering there, even amongst

928
00:55:53,320 --> 00:55:57,480
Speaker 1: the Vietnamese veterans who who fought against our guys. Now

929
00:55:57,680 --> 00:56:01,920
Speaker 1: they're you know, uh, it would be a good place

930
00:56:02,040 --> 00:56:08,399
Speaker 1: to go and perhaps meant some fences there. Yeah, yeah,

931
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 1: you know the biggest, the biggest fence that anybody in

932
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,040
Speaker 1: the military has to men is the one that exists

933
00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:19,680
Speaker 1: in their minds. Okay, it's because you you you basically

934
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:25,080
Speaker 1: have compartmentalized the trauma of being in combat in that environment.

935
00:56:25,640 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 1: So it's really what once you can kind of extend

936
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 1: yourself beyond that, you'll find that excuse me, former former

937
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 1: enemies can become friendly. Excuse me for the coughing on,

938
00:56:42,719 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 1: just suck sucking at a cough drop here. But the

939
00:56:48,320 --> 00:56:53,080
Speaker 1: people you know, they're friends and there they can be colleague, colleagues, compatriots.

940
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:55,560
Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be the animosity that you left

941
00:56:55,600 --> 00:57:02,120
Speaker 1: there with. That's a great point. So, Mike, we don't

942
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 1: want to take too much of your well, I was

943
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,040
Speaker 1: gonna say afternoon. It's afternoon here on the East coast,

944
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:12,040
Speaker 1: but it's your morning there in California on the West coast.

945
00:57:12,719 --> 00:57:14,759
Speaker 1: We want to thank you for being here, but we

946
00:57:14,920 --> 00:57:19,920
Speaker 1: want to again our listeners and our readers. The title

947
00:57:20,000 --> 00:57:23,280
Speaker 1: of the book is an American Combat Bird Dog Pilot,

948
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:28,760
Speaker 1: and Um explain to our listeners where they can find

949
00:57:28,800 --> 00:57:32,120
Speaker 1: this and how they can purchase this book, and we

950
00:57:32,600 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 1: definitely encourage all of our readers to do that. Well, yeah,

951
00:57:37,080 --> 00:57:40,400
Speaker 1: thanks Steve, And so obviously you can go on Amazon.

952
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 1: It's on Amazon right now under books under Mike Leonard

953
00:57:44,920 --> 00:57:48,240
Speaker 1: or as you said, an American Combat Bird Dog Pilot,

954
00:57:48,920 --> 00:57:51,600
Speaker 1: or I think you can go through software dot com

955
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 1: because softwarep dot com was, you know, the publishing side

956
00:57:58,480 --> 00:58:03,120
Speaker 1: of that software up did all the all the hard work,

957
00:58:03,160 --> 00:58:05,680
Speaker 1: all the heavy lifting. They're the ones that edited it,

958
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:10,160
Speaker 1: put it together. I mean, it was just brilliant. And

959
00:58:10,920 --> 00:58:14,040
Speaker 1: to those people, and by the way, I'm just one

960
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 1: old veteran, but I'll tell you there's thousands of people

961
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:22,040
Speaker 1: out there with stories justice Harry just as doing just

962
00:58:22,200 --> 00:58:25,520
Speaker 1: as bad as mine, and I would encourage those people

963
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:28,400
Speaker 1: that have, you know, if for no other reason, write

964
00:58:28,400 --> 00:58:31,320
Speaker 1: your story down for your project, if your grandkids, your kids,

965
00:58:31,880 --> 00:58:34,360
Speaker 1: and oh, by the way, when you put it together,

966
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 1: contacts off rep and you know, and they'll take care

967
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:40,920
Speaker 1: of you. They'll get this thing published and you know,

968
00:58:41,600 --> 00:58:43,880
Speaker 1: like they did for me, I can't thank them enough.

969
00:58:44,760 --> 00:58:47,800
Speaker 1: Well that's great, and uh, you know you mentioned Brandon

970
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:51,520
Speaker 1: Webb earlier in the podcast, and that's uh soft Reps

971
00:58:51,960 --> 00:58:56,520
Speaker 1: owner and publishers. So it was it was very neat

972
00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:00,080
Speaker 1: that you were able to you know, become friends with

973
00:59:00,240 --> 00:59:03,800
Speaker 1: Brandon and he was instrumental in getting this published. And

974
00:59:04,400 --> 00:59:07,280
Speaker 1: and again like, thank you for taking the time with

975
00:59:07,480 --> 00:59:12,160
Speaker 1: us today. We really appreciate it. You're welcome, You're welcome, Stephen.

976
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 1: May I just interject one last question. My wife is

977
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 1: said my my one of my granddaughters just put out,

978
00:59:18,760 --> 00:59:21,160
Speaker 1: you know, Grandpa, we're so proud of you. So the

979
00:59:21,280 --> 00:59:24,280
Speaker 1: message to all those people who can conceived of doing

980
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:26,440
Speaker 1: this is, you know, do it. See your kids and

981
00:59:26,520 --> 00:59:29,440
Speaker 1: grandkids because they will they need to know who you are,

982
00:59:29,720 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 1: who you are, and it's it's leaving a legacy. So

983
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 1: and thank you again for taking the time to interview me.

984
00:59:37,400 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 1: Oh it was our pleasure. But before we go, as always,

985
00:59:41,400 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 1: we have to read our little uh piece on our

986
00:59:45,720 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 1: ad here. If you want to get soft Reap on

987
00:59:48,360 --> 00:59:51,880
Speaker 1: your phone, download our free mobile app and get easy

988
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 1: access to our articles, podcasts, gary views, all perfectly formated

989
00:59:56,680 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 1: to your device. Well he subscribed the softwarep dot Comedy

990
01:00:00,040 --> 01:00:02,800
Speaker 1: get access to all our library of e books such

991
01:00:02,880 --> 01:00:08,600
Speaker 1: as this book. Here and are exclusive team reforms in

992
01:00:08,760 --> 01:00:13,520
Speaker 1: content available on all your Apple and Android devices. We

993
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,720
Speaker 1: want to thank our guest today, Mike Leonard. Uh. He

994
01:00:17,560 --> 01:00:20,120
Speaker 1: has a tremendous book out there. We encourage all our

995
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:24,040
Speaker 1: readers and listeners to go out there and downloaded off

996
01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:26,720
Speaker 1: a soft Rep or you can buy a copy and

997
01:00:27,080 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 1: UH you'll be definitely entertained. It's a great story and

998
01:00:32,280 --> 01:00:34,280
Speaker 1: he had a great story to tell. He's lived a

999
01:00:34,440 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 1: very very interesting life and we've only glossed over some

1000
01:00:37,920 --> 01:00:40,280
Speaker 1: of the highlights here in the hour that we had

1001
01:00:40,400 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 1: for the podcast, but we could have gone much much deeper.

1002
01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:46,880
Speaker 1: So Mike, once again, thank you for taking the time

1003
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:52,040
Speaker 1: with us this uh this afternoon, and good luck with

1004
01:00:52,240 --> 01:00:54,560
Speaker 1: the book sales, and we hope to do this again

1005
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,600
Speaker 1: real soon. He will whenever you want. Just give me

1006
01:00:57,640 --> 01:01:01,720
Speaker 1: a call, Steve. All right, thanks again and for all

1007
01:01:01,760 --> 01:01:04,280
Speaker 1: of us here it's soft Rep. We'll be back with

1008
01:01:04,400 --> 01:01:24,800
Speaker 1: another podcast in the very near future. You've been listening

1009
01:01:24,920 --> 01:01:27,080
Speaker 1: to self red Lydia m