WEBVTT - Judging Sam: Michael Lewis comes to court 0:00:15.316 --> 0:00:15.796 Pushkin. 0:00:23.716 --> 0:00:26.716 Welcome to Judging Sam, our podcast about the trial of 0:00:26.756 --> 0:00:29.356 Sam Bangman freed. I'm Michael Lewis and I'm here outside 0:00:29.436 --> 0:00:33.116 the courthouse with Lydia Jane Kott doing actual reporting. I'm 0:00:33.156 --> 0:00:35.756 off my book tour and we're going to be together 0:00:35.836 --> 0:00:38.116 in the courthouse for the next four days. Lydia Jane 0:00:38.156 --> 0:00:40.036 was in that she got here, was at three in 0:00:40.076 --> 0:00:42.156 the morning or four in the four thirty in the morning, 0:00:42.476 --> 0:00:44.756 was in the overflow room and I got here late 0:00:44.796 --> 0:00:47.636 and thanks to Lydia Jean's while snuck into the main 0:00:47.756 --> 0:00:51.196 courtroom to watch Sam Bagman free testify. I want to 0:00:51.236 --> 0:00:53.116 So we're gonna start with you because you actually took notes. 0:00:53.116 --> 0:00:55.876 I just sat and watched. What was your What were 0:00:55.916 --> 0:00:56.756 your takeaways today? 0:00:56.836 --> 0:00:58.916 So first off, we should say that it was kind 0:00:58.916 --> 0:01:01.556 of a rehearsal for Sam mcmnfried's testament. 0:01:01.676 --> 0:01:03.956 Surely we should explain this. Do you understand it? Because 0:01:03.996 --> 0:01:05.836 I can try, but you made me understand it better. 0:01:05.916 --> 0:01:09.476 Basically, what happened is that the prosecution rested and then 0:01:09.636 --> 0:01:12.116 the defense began their case. So we had two really 0:01:12.196 --> 0:01:15.196 quick witnesses. Who was it someone lawyer from the Bahamas. 0:01:15.236 --> 0:01:17.156 It was Sam's lawyer from the Bahamas who had met 0:01:17.196 --> 0:01:20.076 Don on the Bahamas, and it was a financial expert 0:01:20.156 --> 0:01:22.676 who was trying to say something that didn't make a 0:01:22.716 --> 0:01:25.036 whole lot of sense about the FTX accounts. 0:01:25.356 --> 0:01:28.156 And then there's this. The prosecution and the defense have 0:01:28.276 --> 0:01:32.596 been arguing about whether they can use not a formal 0:01:32.676 --> 0:01:35.956 advice of counsel defense. But the defense wants to say 0:01:35.956 --> 0:01:39.436 that Sam Makmun Freed talked to lawyers and that gave 0:01:39.476 --> 0:01:42.756 him some comfort in the decisions that he made going forward, 0:01:43.156 --> 0:01:46.316 and the prosecution does not want that to be brought 0:01:46.356 --> 0:01:49.396 in front of the jury. And the judge wasn't able 0:01:49.396 --> 0:01:52.356 to make a decision, so he asked basically to hear 0:01:52.836 --> 0:01:56.236 the testimony and then after he hears it, he's going 0:01:56.276 --> 0:01:57.956 to decide whether or not the jury can hear it 0:01:57.996 --> 0:01:59.476 as well. And this is really rare. 0:01:59.756 --> 0:02:01.156 He never it is never right noticed. 0:02:01.196 --> 0:02:02.836 I was sitting next to a lawyer and lawyer said 0:02:02.836 --> 0:02:04.356 he'd never really seen this happen before. 0:02:04.636 --> 0:02:05.756 I was an next a lawyer who told me the 0:02:05.796 --> 0:02:06.156 same thing. 0:02:06.196 --> 0:02:08.476 And so there was and it went on for I 0:02:08.516 --> 0:02:11.596 don't know, three hours, maybe more. And what was so 0:02:11.636 --> 0:02:13.756 interesting about it to me? There were six things that 0:02:13.796 --> 0:02:15.436 were interesting about it to me. But the first was 0:02:16.196 --> 0:02:20.156 the actual testimony that Sam's lawyers weren't introduce. I couldn't 0:02:20.156 --> 0:02:21.716 see what it was so controversial about it. It was 0:02:21.716 --> 0:02:26.076 pretty straightforward, kind of dull, useful to a point. You 0:02:26.076 --> 0:02:28.756 could see that the lawyers were signing off on certain 0:02:28.836 --> 0:02:31.436 documents that seemed to authorize Sam to do things like 0:02:31.556 --> 0:02:34.796 use FTX custom money to buy stuff. But what was 0:02:34.836 --> 0:02:38.876 so interesting is the cross examination and Danielle Sassoon, who 0:02:38.956 --> 0:02:44.116 was the government lawyer. The prosecutor, used this occasion to 0:02:44.796 --> 0:02:49.436 not just question the specific testimony that Sam wanted to deliver, 0:02:49.956 --> 0:02:53.196 but essentially try the whole case, which she was willing 0:02:53.236 --> 0:02:54.396 to do. They were going to be there till nine 0:02:54.396 --> 0:02:56.516 at night. The judge was getting I've been walking around? 0:02:57.436 --> 0:02:59.996 Oh he was, so he looked was he doing that 0:03:00.036 --> 0:03:00.796 thing that he leans over? 0:03:01.556 --> 0:03:03.596 He was clearly irritated a little bit with her. 0:03:03.836 --> 0:03:07.236 But her question was so interesting that you could see 0:03:07.316 --> 0:03:11.556 him getting irritated with Sam at how long, at how 0:03:11.556 --> 0:03:15.636 he was answering the questions. This most single most important line, Well, 0:03:15.676 --> 0:03:18.716 first was he said to Sam, henceforth, listen to the 0:03:18.796 --> 0:03:21.476 question and answer the question. Directly, which I wish I 0:03:21.476 --> 0:03:23.636 could have said to Sam for the last two years 0:03:23.876 --> 0:03:26.276 because I you know, this is a running theme in 0:03:26.316 --> 0:03:28.636 the book that Sam, you ask him a question, you 0:03:28.676 --> 0:03:29.396 get a different answer. 0:03:29.396 --> 0:03:32.236 You didn't judge didn't listen to you. 0:03:32.436 --> 0:03:34.636 But the other thing was the judge just kind of 0:03:34.636 --> 0:03:37.676 all by himself, says. The witness has an interesting way 0:03:37.676 --> 0:03:38.596 of answering questions. 0:03:38.596 --> 0:03:40.196 I shouldn't know it on that as well. 0:03:40.276 --> 0:03:44.116 And this is if you really have to listen for 0:03:44.156 --> 0:03:46.516 it, it's a gift. It's almost like an art form. With Sam. 0:03:47.276 --> 0:03:50.996 Most people, when they don't answer your question, you instantly 0:03:51.036 --> 0:03:53.956 realize they didn't answer your question. Sam is so good 0:03:53.956 --> 0:03:56.836 at not answering your question. If you're not really on 0:03:56.916 --> 0:03:59.316 top of it, you're lulled into thinking your question was 0:03:59.356 --> 0:04:05.556 answered and facing a less capable lawyer, he'd be very seductive. 0:04:05.716 --> 0:04:08.636 Sam's just natural way of answering questions could be an 0:04:08.676 --> 0:04:12.516 eventtastically effective strategy. The problem is the lawyer's right on 0:04:12.556 --> 0:04:14.516 top of it, and what's going to happen tomorrow if 0:04:14.516 --> 0:04:17.036 he doesn't watch it is that the jury is going 0:04:17.076 --> 0:04:19.076 to be irritated with him, and because he's going to 0:04:19.116 --> 0:04:20.836 be pointed out again and again and again, and they're 0:04:20.836 --> 0:04:22.876 going to start to see, oh my god, he's not 0:04:22.916 --> 0:04:25.236 answering the question. The jury would never be able to 0:04:25.236 --> 0:04:27.076 figure out the sam wasn't in answering the question less 0:04:27.076 --> 0:04:28.756 people pointed it out to them, and it's going to 0:04:28.756 --> 0:04:30.036 be pointed out over and over. 0:04:30.156 --> 0:04:32.556 I bet, yeah, yeah. I took a note on that, actually, 0:04:32.636 --> 0:04:36.636 because at one point the prosecutor was trying to she 0:04:36.796 --> 0:04:39.356 was having him look at the forms that people signed 0:04:39.396 --> 0:04:41.716 to have their money go into be sent to North 0:04:41.796 --> 0:04:45.076 to mention, which eventually ended up in Alameda, and she 0:04:45.236 --> 0:04:47.996 was asking whether that meant that Alameda could use those funds, 0:04:48.076 --> 0:04:51.436 and she said where exactly? And he said I think 0:04:51.516 --> 0:04:54.356 so essentially right, And she said where exactly on the 0:04:54.396 --> 0:04:55.756 form does it say that? 0:04:56.316 --> 0:04:58.636 And there's this long, incredible silence. 0:04:58.636 --> 0:04:59.916 I timed it was over a minute. 0:04:59.916 --> 0:05:00.836 It felt like five minutes. 0:05:00.916 --> 0:05:02.876 And she said something like, if you need me too, 0:05:02.916 --> 0:05:03.836 I can turn the page. 0:05:04.116 --> 0:05:06.476 Yes, and then and then he had an. 0:05:06.356 --> 0:05:10.196 Answer which started, I should prep that I'm not a lawyer, 0:05:10.556 --> 0:05:13.116 But the part that jives with that, I don't think 0:05:13.156 --> 0:05:16.436 this goes with how you most recently phrase this. And 0:05:16.436 --> 0:05:18.436 by that point I've already lost the thread. 0:05:18.596 --> 0:05:24.076 That's right, and you could see. I mean, it's almost superpower. 0:05:24.356 --> 0:05:27.756 And I gotta say that he's not conventionally dishonest. 0:05:29.036 --> 0:05:30.796 What he does is evade. 0:05:30.316 --> 0:05:32.636 Questions if he doesn't want to answer them. But I 0:05:32.716 --> 0:05:35.396 tell you this, what makes the evasion so powerful. He 0:05:35.476 --> 0:05:37.916 answers the question he wants to answer, even if you 0:05:37.956 --> 0:05:40.076 ask him a question that doesn't particularly bother him. 0:05:40.156 --> 0:05:41.676 He does this with every question. 0:05:41.796 --> 0:05:46.396 He does it very very, very ably, just generally, and 0:05:47.156 --> 0:05:48.276 it's a little spell minded. 0:05:48.396 --> 0:05:50.956 And I thought, first I put myself in his shoes. 0:05:50.996 --> 0:05:53.836 He's been sitting in that jail for what two months 0:05:53.916 --> 0:05:57.516 or so, he's or almost two months. 0:05:57.076 --> 0:06:01.076 He's lost a bunch of weight. He looks different. 0:06:01.156 --> 0:06:02.356 His suit fit so badly. 0:06:02.516 --> 0:06:03.356 He's like a box. 0:06:03.356 --> 0:06:05.916 It's like he stole it off a middle linebacker from 0:06:05.916 --> 0:06:07.676 the New York Giants and tries it is trying to 0:06:07.716 --> 0:06:09.596 wear it, but yeah. 0:06:09.396 --> 0:06:15.036 It doesn't fit. He was unbelievably composed, very smart, very. 0:06:14.836 --> 0:06:17.676 Persuasive in places I thought, I mean, I think, if 0:06:17.716 --> 0:06:20.236 I was just coming to this fresh and even though 0:06:20.276 --> 0:06:22.436 I'm coming to it with everything, I know, you find 0:06:22.476 --> 0:06:23.276 him very persuasive. 0:06:23.396 --> 0:06:25.356 I'm direct. I thought we all thought he did great. 0:06:25.436 --> 0:06:27.636 After it's all the journalists were like, that couldn't have 0:06:27.676 --> 0:06:28.156 gone better? 0:06:28.316 --> 0:06:31.316 Right, That's what I thought the Cross It's not that 0:06:31.396 --> 0:06:34.916 it went horribly, it's that you could see how tomorrow 0:06:34.996 --> 0:06:35.876 could go horribly. 0:06:36.396 --> 0:06:37.076 Is what I thought. 0:06:37.396 --> 0:06:39.796 Is that he was he was getting under the judge's skin, 0:06:40.196 --> 0:06:44.076 and he was getting under the prosecutor's skin, but in 0:06:44.116 --> 0:06:45.796 a way that was going to get under the jury's 0:06:45.796 --> 0:06:48.516 skin that they were not gonna like this, Like when 0:06:48.516 --> 0:06:50.196 they asked him a simple question, he should give a 0:06:50.236 --> 0:06:52.916 simple answer. And this is never a simple answer with Sam. 0:06:52.956 --> 0:06:56.556 It's always complicated. It's like you are instantly in Sam 0:06:56.596 --> 0:06:58.436 Bank mcfred world when you ask him a question and 0:06:58.516 --> 0:07:00.876 you're playing either playing a very complicated board game or 0:07:00.916 --> 0:07:03.316 trying to solve some puzzle that he's created for you. 0:07:03.676 --> 0:07:06.156 And it's beguiling. It's just absolutely beguiling. 0:07:06.396 --> 0:07:06.636 Just the. 0:07:08.596 --> 0:07:10.676 Poise so kind of amazed me. 0:07:11.116 --> 0:07:13.556 If I were in his situation, I would be a 0:07:13.556 --> 0:07:16.436 bundle of nerves. My mind would be someplace else when 0:07:16.436 --> 0:07:18.196 they're asking me to questions. I would not be able 0:07:18.196 --> 0:07:20.916 to track the way he's tracking stuff. And he was 0:07:21.076 --> 0:07:22.836 clearly on top of it all. 0:07:23.156 --> 0:07:24.436 Yeah, he's he. 0:07:24.396 --> 0:07:26.396 Had some tells though. Did you see that when the 0:07:26.476 --> 0:07:28.236 prosecutor gave him a piece of paper and his hand 0:07:28.316 --> 0:07:30.236 was shaking so much? It was like, maybe because in 0:07:30.276 --> 0:07:32.116 the overflow rooms you can see because the camera's right 0:07:32.196 --> 0:07:34.836 up on his face, the paper was like shaking really hard. 0:07:34.996 --> 0:07:36.476 So the view I had of him, I had the 0:07:36.516 --> 0:07:39.716 best view about the best view in the courtroom of him, 0:07:40.036 --> 0:07:41.916 which was a poor view of the jury, but it's 0:07:41.916 --> 0:07:43.836 a good view of him and the judge. And all 0:07:43.876 --> 0:07:45.596 you really saw was his shoulders as his head. I 0:07:45.596 --> 0:07:47.116 couldn't see his hands, and I couldn't and I wonder 0:07:47.156 --> 0:07:47.956 where his leg. 0:07:47.836 --> 0:07:49.356 Was bouncing up and now I couldn't see it. 0:07:49.556 --> 0:07:51.316 I don't know if you can actually see his leg bouncing, 0:07:51.356 --> 0:07:53.276 but that will be happening because that's. 0:07:53.076 --> 0:07:53.676 Just how he is. 0:07:54.476 --> 0:07:56.196 The Other thing that struck me is like, it's so 0:07:56.396 --> 0:07:58.436 seldom that I've seen him do one thing at a 0:07:58.476 --> 0:08:01.356 time that where they actually sit and have a conversation 0:08:01.476 --> 0:08:04.196 with someone where he isn't playing a video game or true. 0:08:04.876 --> 0:08:08.636 It's always this other reality that occupies him, and I 0:08:08.676 --> 0:08:09.356 think it him. 0:08:09.716 --> 0:08:12.596 It's not his natural way of interacting with people. 0:08:13.236 --> 0:08:16.116 He's shuffling card decks or he's doing and so he's 0:08:16.276 --> 0:08:17.196 really being. 0:08:17.156 --> 0:08:20.836 Stressed by this, like his natural mo o is not allowed. 0:08:21.516 --> 0:08:24.676 I'm just I'm kind of impressed by his fiber, you know, 0:08:24.916 --> 0:08:28.076 I just like I'm impressed by by how he was. 0:08:28.316 --> 0:08:31.956 Hard to do and riveting as theater. Just like riveting 0:08:31.996 --> 0:08:35.796 as theater. Yeah, I don't. I mean, did you? Were 0:08:35.796 --> 0:08:37.916 you getting the same vibe that, like, he's not answering 0:08:37.996 --> 0:08:38.716 the question, were you? 0:08:38.956 --> 0:08:40.996 Well, we were all. We were all every time he 0:08:41.076 --> 0:08:46.676 started doing answering a question, we were all like, oh no, so. 0:08:47.276 --> 0:08:49.396 What the substance of the thing. 0:08:49.876 --> 0:08:51.916 They were supposed to be just talking of those two 0:08:51.916 --> 0:08:54.196 and a half hour three hours about whether they could 0:08:54.236 --> 0:08:58.676 introduce the role that lawyers played in his life, and 0:08:58.676 --> 0:09:01.636 instead she did Daniel Sasson took it to a place 0:09:01.676 --> 0:09:05.076 where did you think it was okay? Did you think 0:09:05.116 --> 0:09:07.596 you had the right to uh to steal customers money? 0:09:07.756 --> 0:09:09.876 Did you do you remember the part there was a 0:09:09.916 --> 0:09:13.916 section about safeguarding and she said, what does safeguarding mean 0:09:13.956 --> 0:09:14.196 to you? 0:09:14.356 --> 0:09:14.516 Yes? 0:09:14.596 --> 0:09:17.156 Sam, that is it just keeping Because originally he talked 0:09:17.156 --> 0:09:19.596 about how one way that they safeguarded customer assets was 0:09:19.636 --> 0:09:21.596 to try and protect from hacks, right, And then she 0:09:21.676 --> 0:09:25.236 said to safeguarding, I mean only protecting from hacks and 0:09:25.756 --> 0:09:28.196 he responded, no, I had more to say, and she 0:09:28.236 --> 0:09:30.836 said to you, does it also mean not embuzzling funds? 0:09:31.676 --> 0:09:34.076 And he said, you know, And at that moment that 0:09:34.196 --> 0:09:39.156 his lawyer objected, the judge said sustained, like you're not 0:09:39.196 --> 0:09:40.876 going to have to answer that question. And he answered 0:09:40.916 --> 0:09:42.956 it anyway, and he smile, he laughed. He said, I 0:09:42.956 --> 0:09:44.516 felt I needed to answer that one. 0:09:44.596 --> 0:09:47.636 And he said he does think safeguarding includes not inmbuzzling 0:09:47.716 --> 0:09:48.516 funds exactly. 0:09:49.276 --> 0:09:51.276 He had a humor about him, which was also to 0:09:51.396 --> 0:09:54.156 his credit, and the judge, you know, it's funny. The 0:09:54.276 --> 0:09:57.876 judge obviously had an abstract dislike of him by the 0:09:57.876 --> 0:10:01.516 time he arrived here for his trial, and based on 0:10:01.716 --> 0:10:03.956 Sam seeming, they're going to be testing every. 0:10:03.836 --> 0:10:05.796 Rule of house arrest. 0:10:05.956 --> 0:10:10.316 And the judge has a reputation is he and judge, 0:10:10.636 --> 0:10:14.556 But you could tell the judge is taking an interest 0:10:14.596 --> 0:10:15.196 in him. 0:10:15.436 --> 0:10:18.316 Oh yeah, like you have a really unusual way of 0:10:18.356 --> 0:10:19.116 answering questions. 0:10:19.116 --> 0:10:22.956 But he also like there was a moment when the 0:10:23.036 --> 0:10:26.636 judge needed blockchain or something explained, and asked Sam to 0:10:26.676 --> 0:10:27.876 explain it. 0:10:28.036 --> 0:10:29.276 Sam's a wonderful explainer. 0:10:29.596 --> 0:10:31.076 You can see how good a teacher it is, right 0:10:31.116 --> 0:10:32.676 like when he wants to explain something here, really very 0:10:32.676 --> 0:10:35.636 good at doing it. And the judge was, I could 0:10:35.636 --> 0:10:37.756 tell it if this thing we're going to jump the shark. 0:10:37.956 --> 0:10:39.756 The judge would get really interested in crypto in the 0:10:39.796 --> 0:10:41.516 middle of this trial and just sort of pause the 0:10:41.556 --> 0:10:44.476 trial to have Sam teach him all about crypto because. 0:10:44.196 --> 0:10:46.316 He's just so interesting what he's learning from Sam. 0:10:46.436 --> 0:10:48.716 And there was a little of that going on, and 0:10:50.196 --> 0:10:53.476 in the darkness of his soul, in his most private place, 0:10:54.676 --> 0:10:56.756 I think the judge would say, this is an interesting person. 0:10:57.236 --> 0:10:58.876 And the judge even made a bit of a comment 0:10:58.916 --> 0:11:01.956 like that. At one point, Sam BigMan Freed said I'm 0:11:01.996 --> 0:11:03.956 not sure if I should answer this question. He said 0:11:03.956 --> 0:11:06.436 something legal like, I'm worried it's outside the scope. I 0:11:06.436 --> 0:11:09.836 forget what exact legal term was, and the judg responded, 0:11:10.156 --> 0:11:12.436 leave that to me. You know your role is to 0:11:12.436 --> 0:11:16.796 explain blockchain basically, that's right to me, Yeah, exactly exactly. 0:11:18.276 --> 0:11:25.796 Judging Sam will be right back. Welcome back to judging, Sam. 0:11:26.156 --> 0:11:27.276 I've just arrived at the court. 0:11:27.356 --> 0:11:30.556 It's the first time I've been here twenty seven days. 0:11:30.596 --> 0:11:32.996 I've been on the road, and I've had a couple 0:11:33.116 --> 0:11:33.756 like reactions. 0:11:33.756 --> 0:11:34.236 It's funny. 0:11:34.316 --> 0:11:36.356 I feel like I've walked into your high school. That's 0:11:36.356 --> 0:11:39.036 what I They already have their clicks. Yes, they already 0:11:39.076 --> 0:11:41.956 know they're having lunch with. Yeah, they already know who's 0:11:42.076 --> 0:11:44.156 they're going to share notes with, and who's okay to 0:11:44.156 --> 0:11:47.316 talk to and who's not there. There is this obviously 0:11:47.356 --> 0:11:49.436 a group, and you're included in this group of the 0:11:50.516 --> 0:11:52.876 highly ambitious, aggressive people who get here early enough. 0:11:52.756 --> 0:11:53.676 To get into the courtroom. 0:11:53.876 --> 0:11:55.676 Yes, I mean I talked to one coming out the door. 0:11:55.756 --> 0:11:57.036 She says she got to hear a bit before three 0:11:57.036 --> 0:11:59.076 in the morning, and she was seventh and one. 0:11:59.156 --> 0:12:00.676 And then, were you like, my producer is such as 0:12:00.676 --> 0:12:02.276 slacker because she got to here four thirty. 0:12:02.596 --> 0:12:05.516 I met the one of the marshalls who who watches 0:12:05.596 --> 0:12:10.196 the door and delightful guy. Oh, they're great, delightful guy. 0:12:10.236 --> 0:12:13.316 But this was even better. He listens to this podcast. 0:12:13.716 --> 0:12:15.476 Now, if you'd ask me, what if I was a 0:12:15.516 --> 0:12:18.436 marshal in a courthouse and I spent my day watching 0:12:18.436 --> 0:12:21.236 that trial, what would I do with my free time afterwards? 0:12:21.276 --> 0:12:21.916 It would not be. 0:12:21.916 --> 0:12:24.556 Listening to a podcast about the trial. But he's listening 0:12:24.596 --> 0:12:27.076 to the podcast about the trial and he's read the book. 0:12:27.436 --> 0:12:30.836 And his attitude about that was, it's I really love 0:12:31.516 --> 0:12:34.276 knowing the story like the person. You know, you don't 0:12:34.276 --> 0:12:36.316 get the story here. You get none of the humanity, 0:12:36.436 --> 0:12:38.676 you get none of the real person. And that was 0:12:39.076 --> 0:12:41.516 and that's something you notice in these from these trials, 0:12:41.556 --> 0:12:44.796 as you're getting such a weird, abstracted sliver of the 0:12:44.876 --> 0:12:48.916 experience and none of the context. And the only way 0:12:48.956 --> 0:12:52.836 you're getting the characters really is indirectly from how they 0:12:52.836 --> 0:12:53.916 are on the witness stand. 0:12:54.156 --> 0:12:56.316 Yeah. Yeah, and then you end up filling a lot 0:12:56.356 --> 0:12:57.596 of the gaps or your imagination. 0:12:57.796 --> 0:13:01.716 That's right, and that's that's right. So, uh, what else 0:13:02.356 --> 0:13:03.156 did I notice? 0:13:03.316 --> 0:13:05.836 How chill like the guards are going into the place 0:13:06.036 --> 0:13:08.796 like it's not it doesn't feel like all these people, 0:13:08.796 --> 0:13:11.436 these peop we should be in charge of TSA if 0:13:11.476 --> 0:13:13.876 TSA ran as well as this, and it was just 0:13:13.996 --> 0:13:16.756 fun to go through and as easy and as reasonable 0:13:17.156 --> 0:13:18.796 like flying would be a different experience. 0:13:18.956 --> 0:13:20.596 So I was surprised by that. 0:13:20.636 --> 0:13:23.076 I thought it was gonna be miserable bureaucracy, and actually 0:13:23.116 --> 0:13:26.116 they're like they're kind of really good at what they whatever. 0:13:26.116 --> 0:13:26.796 They run this place. 0:13:26.876 --> 0:13:33.876 Well, I'm surprised by art struck by how authoritative the 0:13:33.956 --> 0:13:37.036 judge is, Like, he just runs the thing it is 0:13:37.076 --> 0:13:39.956 that he's not. He just takes no nonsense. 0:13:39.996 --> 0:13:41.436 And I can almost I get the point today where 0:13:41.436 --> 0:13:43.036 I could guess where he was gonna lose his patience. 0:13:43.156 --> 0:13:45.596 Yeah, you were telling me, and then right after that you. 0:13:45.596 --> 0:13:47.676 Could see I could say, this is bothering me, So 0:13:47.676 --> 0:13:49.836 I bet it's bothering him. And then right away, boom, 0:13:49.876 --> 0:13:51.916 he's on it. And I thought that's kind of It's 0:13:51.956 --> 0:13:55.236 kind of cool. I imagined him. I don't know it, 0:13:55.236 --> 0:13:57.156 and I imagine, but I didn't imagine it would be quite. 0:13:57.036 --> 0:14:00.236 As aggress as aggressive as he was. This is a 0:14:00.276 --> 0:14:02.236 side and kind of narcissistic note. It was kind of 0:14:02.236 --> 0:14:04.156 funny walking too. Everybody wanted me to signed books. 0:14:04.236 --> 0:14:06.396 Yeah, I thought that It's funny that I didn't realize 0:14:06.396 --> 0:14:07.796 the book was quite as well. 0:14:07.916 --> 0:14:09.836 People bring your book every day, it's not just because 0:14:09.876 --> 0:14:10.676 they knew you were coming. 0:14:10.956 --> 0:14:12.476 It was fun to see that people are kind of 0:14:12.556 --> 0:14:14.756 in the middle of it. And so this is like 0:14:14.756 --> 0:14:17.076 this other reality. There's this trial going on in this 0:14:17.876 --> 0:14:20.956 libretto to the opera, so I wasn't expecting that. 0:14:21.156 --> 0:14:24.996 What else caught my eye? Oh well, you know, if 0:14:24.996 --> 0:14:27.276 you're in there, just what a partial view you get. 0:14:27.396 --> 0:14:28.236 This is true to life. 0:14:28.276 --> 0:14:30.356 No matter where you are, you always just see where 0:14:30.396 --> 0:14:32.396 your view is your view, And just because you're in 0:14:32.396 --> 0:14:33.636 the courtroom doesn't mean you have the whole. 0:14:33.796 --> 0:14:35.596 Yeah, you have the view of either the witness or 0:14:35.596 --> 0:14:36.836 maybe you can see the jury. 0:14:37.036 --> 0:14:39.476 You can see maybe the sides of the faces of 0:14:39.476 --> 0:14:44.356 Sam's parents, see backs of the prosecutors. Just because you're there, 0:14:44.396 --> 0:14:48.596 it doesn't mean you're there. My normal reporting, like instinct 0:14:49.036 --> 0:14:51.836 is to literally when I'm to walk around to. 0:14:51.796 --> 0:14:53.156 See whatever the setting is. 0:14:53.316 --> 0:14:56.076 If it's like ftx's office in the Bahamas, I would 0:14:56.116 --> 0:14:58.436 just I'd sit in different places. I'd see it, trying 0:14:58.476 --> 0:15:01.356 to see it from every angle, because you never know 0:15:01.396 --> 0:15:03.156 what you're missing if you're just sitting in one spot 0:15:03.436 --> 0:15:04.436 and here you're kind of. 0:15:04.356 --> 0:15:06.676 Constrained because you can't quite do that. Yeah, there's a 0:15:06.716 --> 0:15:08.596 little part of me that was a tiny bit frustrated. 0:15:09.116 --> 0:15:12.956 Did pick out the guy on the on the jury 0:15:13.356 --> 0:15:16.476 who was apparently my former Solomon Brother's colleague, And I 0:15:16.516 --> 0:15:19.436 find it just wild that the person who probably. 0:15:19.076 --> 0:15:21.476 Knows the most about this and can explain to everybody else, 0:15:21.556 --> 0:15:24.156 was it Solomon the Brothers me, there's something full circle 0:15:24.196 --> 0:15:24.756 is about this. 0:15:24.916 --> 0:15:27.116 I just can't get out of my head because I 0:15:27.196 --> 0:15:29.196 really was thinking of Liars Poker and I read this book. 0:15:29.236 --> 0:15:33.236 I thought, it's like it's another version of what's supposed 0:15:33.236 --> 0:15:33.596 to be a. 0:15:33.556 --> 0:15:37.476 Business being actually, you know, off the rails, frat house 0:15:38.156 --> 0:15:40.596 kind of the behavior that's going on in here bears 0:15:40.596 --> 0:15:43.436 no relation to what people think when they think corporation. 0:15:43.996 --> 0:15:46.036 It's this all over again, but it's being recreated in 0:15:46.076 --> 0:15:49.996 crypto different characters. It's nerds rather than jocks, and it's 0:15:50.036 --> 0:15:53.436 but it's but same little bit of the same vibe. 0:15:53.716 --> 0:15:55.916 And so that we have the guy who was there 0:15:55.956 --> 0:15:58.996 at the start sitting there in the trial making evaluations 0:15:59.036 --> 0:16:00.476 of this version of it. 0:16:00.556 --> 0:16:02.476 I wonder if it's gonna that Penty's gonna drop for him. 0:16:03.036 --> 0:16:07.356 Yeah, I wonder he's been paying attention, close. 0:16:07.156 --> 0:16:09.756 Attention, seemed you know, I only on a glimpse of it. 0:16:09.996 --> 0:16:12.596 So tomorrow Sam Mgmunfreed will take the stand for real 0:16:12.676 --> 0:16:15.796 in front of a jury. Yes, what are you interested 0:16:15.836 --> 0:16:16.316 to see? 0:16:17.836 --> 0:16:18.036 See? 0:16:18.036 --> 0:16:22.356 If he had adjusts in response to what just happened, 0:16:23.116 --> 0:16:25.476 and makes a point of trying to answer simply and 0:16:25.556 --> 0:16:28.956 directly questions every possible question that could be answered simply 0:16:28.996 --> 0:16:32.916 and directly. And if he doesn't, how that plays, And 0:16:32.996 --> 0:16:35.716 there'll be lots of root questions and he'll be asked 0:16:35.716 --> 0:16:37.556 and he'll have to answer, and I think he has 0:16:37.596 --> 0:16:39.116 answers for some of them. I think this is that 0:16:39.236 --> 0:16:42.596 it's it's some ways a very simple case, but some 0:16:42.636 --> 0:16:45.076 ways a very complicated case. And I think that we'll 0:16:45.116 --> 0:16:48.596 see both both sides of it tomorrow, and I suspect 0:16:48.596 --> 0:16:49.156 it's gonna. 0:16:48.996 --> 0:16:49.556 Go on all day. 0:16:50.316 --> 0:16:53.956 I definitely. I mean Sam doesn't answer quickly. 0:16:54.276 --> 0:16:56.836 No, he's drawing this out right. 0:16:56.876 --> 0:16:58.076 Well, I'm excited to see you tomorrow. 0:16:58.076 --> 0:16:58.996 All right, see tomorrow. 0:17:01.116 --> 0:17:03.316 We'll be back in your feed soon with more expert 0:17:03.356 --> 0:17:07.276 analysis and news from Sam Bekman Freed's trial. Thanks for listening. 0:17:08.556 --> 0:17:11.956 Lydia Get is our court reporter. Katherine Gerardeau and Nisha 0:17:12.036 --> 0:17:15.916 Venken produced this show. Sophie Crane is our editor. Our 0:17:15.996 --> 0:17:19.316 music was composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans of 0:17:19.396 --> 0:17:20.116 stell Wagons. 0:17:20.116 --> 0:17:20.516 Symphonet. 0:17:21.156 --> 0:17:24.516 Judging Sam is a production of Pushkin Industries. Got a 0:17:24.596 --> 0:17:26.956 question or comment for me, There's a website for that 0:17:27.556 --> 0:17:34.116 atr podcast dot com. That's atr podcast dot com. To 0:17:34.196 --> 0:17:38.716 find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 0:17:38.836 --> 0:17:41.796 or wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you'd like 0:17:41.876 --> 0:17:45.676 to access bonus episodes and listen ad free, don't forget 0:17:45.716 --> 0:17:48.516