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Speaker 1: Pushkin.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Judging Sam, our podcast about the trial of

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Speaker 2: Sam Bangman freed. I'm Michael Lewis and I'm here outside

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Speaker 2: the courthouse with Lydia Jane Kott doing actual reporting. I'm

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Speaker 2: off my book tour and we're going to be together

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Speaker 2: in the courthouse for the next four days. Lydia Jane

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Speaker 2: was in that she got here, was at three in

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Speaker 2: the morning or four in the four thirty in the morning,

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Speaker 2: was in the overflow room and I got here late

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Speaker 2: and thanks to Lydia Jean's while snuck into the main

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Speaker 2: courtroom to watch Sam Bagman free testify. I want to

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Speaker 2: So we're gonna start with you because you actually took notes.

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Speaker 2: I just sat and watched. What was your What were

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Speaker 2: your takeaways today?

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Speaker 3: So first off, we should say that it was kind

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Speaker 3: of a rehearsal for Sam mcmnfried's testament.

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Speaker 1: Surely we should explain this. Do you understand it? Because

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Speaker 1: I can try, but you made me understand it better.

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Speaker 3: Basically, what happened is that the prosecution rested and then

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Speaker 3: the defense began their case. So we had two really

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Speaker 3: quick witnesses. Who was it someone lawyer from the Bahamas.

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Speaker 2: It was Sam's lawyer from the Bahamas who had met

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Speaker 2: Don on the Bahamas, and it was a financial expert

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Speaker 2: who was trying to say something that didn't make a

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Speaker 2: whole lot of sense about the FTX accounts.

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Speaker 3: And then there's this. The prosecution and the defense have

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Speaker 3: been arguing about whether they can use not a formal

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Speaker 3: advice of counsel defense. But the defense wants to say

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Speaker 3: that Sam Makmun Freed talked to lawyers and that gave

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Speaker 3: him some comfort in the decisions that he made going forward,

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Speaker 3: and the prosecution does not want that to be brought

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Speaker 3: in front of the jury. And the judge wasn't able

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Speaker 3: to make a decision, so he asked basically to hear

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Speaker 3: the testimony and then after he hears it, he's going

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Speaker 3: to decide whether or not the jury can hear it

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Speaker 3: as well. And this is really rare.

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Speaker 1: He never it is never right noticed.

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Speaker 2: I was sitting next to a lawyer and lawyer said

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Speaker 2: he'd never really seen this happen before.

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Speaker 3: I was an next a lawyer who told me the

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Speaker 3: same thing.

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Speaker 2: And so there was and it went on for I

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Speaker 2: don't know, three hours, maybe more. And what was so

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Speaker 2: interesting about it to me? There were six things that

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Speaker 2: were interesting about it to me. But the first was

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Speaker 2: the actual testimony that Sam's lawyers weren't introduce. I couldn't

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Speaker 2: see what it was so controversial about it. It was

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Speaker 2: pretty straightforward, kind of dull, useful to a point. You

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Speaker 2: could see that the lawyers were signing off on certain

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Speaker 2: documents that seemed to authorize Sam to do things like

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Speaker 2: use FTX custom money to buy stuff. But what was

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Speaker 2: so interesting is the cross examination and Danielle Sassoon, who

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Speaker 2: was the government lawyer. The prosecutor, used this occasion to

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Speaker 2: not just question the specific testimony that Sam wanted to deliver,

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Speaker 2: but essentially try the whole case, which she was willing

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Speaker 2: to do. They were going to be there till nine

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Speaker 2: at night. The judge was getting I've been walking around?

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Speaker 3: Oh he was, so he looked was he doing that

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Speaker 3: thing that he leans over?

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Speaker 1: He was clearly irritated a little bit with her.

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Speaker 2: But her question was so interesting that you could see

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Speaker 2: him getting irritated with Sam at how long, at how

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Speaker 2: he was answering the questions. This most single most important line, Well,

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Speaker 2: first was he said to Sam, henceforth, listen to the

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Speaker 2: question and answer the question. Directly, which I wish I

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Speaker 2: could have said to Sam for the last two years

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Speaker 2: because I you know, this is a running theme in

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Speaker 2: the book that Sam, you ask him a question, you

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Speaker 2: get a different answer.

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Speaker 3: You didn't judge didn't listen to you.

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Speaker 2: But the other thing was the judge just kind of

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Speaker 2: all by himself, says. The witness has an interesting way

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Speaker 2: of answering questions.

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Speaker 3: I shouldn't know it on that as well.

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Speaker 1: And this is if you really have to listen for

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Speaker 1: it, it's a gift. It's almost like an art form. With Sam.

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Speaker 2: Most people, when they don't answer your question, you instantly

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Speaker 2: realize they didn't answer your question. Sam is so good

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Speaker 2: at not answering your question. If you're not really on

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Speaker 2: top of it, you're lulled into thinking your question was

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Speaker 2: answered and facing a less capable lawyer, he'd be very seductive.

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Speaker 2: Sam's just natural way of answering questions could be an

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Speaker 2: eventtastically effective strategy. The problem is the lawyer's right on

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Speaker 2: top of it, and what's going to happen tomorrow if

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Speaker 2: he doesn't watch it is that the jury is going

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Speaker 2: to be irritated with him, and because he's going to

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Speaker 2: be pointed out again and again and again, and they're

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Speaker 2: going to start to see, oh my god, he's not

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Speaker 2: answering the question. The jury would never be able to

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Speaker 2: figure out the sam wasn't in answering the question less

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Speaker 2: people pointed it out to them, and it's going to

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Speaker 2: be pointed out over and over.

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Speaker 3: I bet, yeah, yeah. I took a note on that, actually,

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Speaker 3: because at one point the prosecutor was trying to she

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Speaker 3: was having him look at the forms that people signed

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Speaker 3: to have their money go into be sent to North

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Speaker 3: to mention, which eventually ended up in Alameda, and she

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Speaker 3: was asking whether that meant that Alameda could use those funds,

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Speaker 3: and she said where exactly? And he said I think

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Speaker 3: so essentially right, And she said where exactly on the

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Speaker 3: form does it say that?

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Speaker 1: And there's this long, incredible silence.

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Speaker 3: I timed it was over a minute.

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Speaker 1: It felt like five minutes.

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Speaker 3: And she said something like, if you need me too,

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Speaker 3: I can turn the page.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and then and then he had an.

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Speaker 3: Answer which started, I should prep that I'm not a lawyer,

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Speaker 3: But the part that jives with that, I don't think

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Speaker 3: this goes with how you most recently phrase this. And

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Speaker 3: by that point I've already lost the thread.

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Speaker 2: That's right, and you could see. I mean, it's almost superpower.

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Speaker 2: And I gotta say that he's not conventionally dishonest.

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Speaker 1: What he does is evade.

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Speaker 2: Questions if he doesn't want to answer them. But I

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Speaker 2: tell you this, what makes the evasion so powerful. He

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Speaker 2: answers the question he wants to answer, even if you

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Speaker 2: ask him a question that doesn't particularly bother him.

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Speaker 1: He does this with every question.

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Speaker 2: He does it very very, very ably, just generally, and

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Speaker 2: it's a little spell minded.

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Speaker 1: And I thought, first I put myself in his shoes.

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Speaker 2: He's been sitting in that jail for what two months

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Speaker 2: or so, he's or almost two months.

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Speaker 1: He's lost a bunch of weight. He looks different.

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Speaker 3: His suit fit so badly.

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Speaker 1: He's like a box.

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Speaker 2: It's like he stole it off a middle linebacker from

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Speaker 2: the New York Giants and tries it is trying to

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Speaker 2: wear it, but yeah.

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Speaker 1: It doesn't fit. He was unbelievably composed, very smart, very.

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Speaker 2: Persuasive in places I thought, I mean, I think, if

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Speaker 2: I was just coming to this fresh and even though

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Speaker 2: I'm coming to it with everything, I know, you find

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Speaker 2: him very persuasive.

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Speaker 3: I'm direct. I thought we all thought he did great.

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Speaker 3: After it's all the journalists were like, that couldn't have

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Speaker 3: gone better?

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Speaker 2: Right, That's what I thought the Cross It's not that

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Speaker 2: it went horribly, it's that you could see how tomorrow

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Speaker 2: could go horribly.

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Speaker 1: Is what I thought.

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Speaker 2: Is that he was he was getting under the judge's skin,

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Speaker 2: and he was getting under the prosecutor's skin, but in

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Speaker 2: a way that was going to get under the jury's

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Speaker 2: skin that they were not gonna like this, Like when

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Speaker 2: they asked him a simple question, he should give a

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Speaker 2: simple answer. And this is never a simple answer with Sam.

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Speaker 2: It's always complicated. It's like you are instantly in Sam

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Speaker 2: Bank mcfred world when you ask him a question and

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Speaker 2: you're playing either playing a very complicated board game or

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Speaker 2: trying to solve some puzzle that he's created for you.

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Speaker 1: And it's beguiling. It's just absolutely beguiling.

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Speaker 3: Just the.

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Speaker 1: Poise so kind of amazed me.

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Speaker 2: If I were in his situation, I would be a

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Speaker 2: bundle of nerves. My mind would be someplace else when

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Speaker 2: they're asking me to questions. I would not be able

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Speaker 2: to track the way he's tracking stuff. And he was

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Speaker 2: clearly on top of it all.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, he's he.

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Speaker 3: Had some tells though. Did you see that when the

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Speaker 3: prosecutor gave him a piece of paper and his hand

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Speaker 3: was shaking so much? It was like, maybe because in

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Speaker 3: the overflow rooms you can see because the camera's right

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Speaker 3: up on his face, the paper was like shaking really hard.

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Speaker 2: So the view I had of him, I had the

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Speaker 2: best view about the best view in the courtroom of him,

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Speaker 2: which was a poor view of the jury, but it's

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Speaker 2: a good view of him and the judge. And all

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Speaker 2: you really saw was his shoulders as his head. I

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Speaker 2: couldn't see his hands, and I couldn't and I wonder

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Speaker 2: where his leg.

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Speaker 3: Was bouncing up and now I couldn't see it.

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Speaker 2: I don't know if you can actually see his leg bouncing,

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Speaker 2: but that will be happening because that's.

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Speaker 1: Just how he is.

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Speaker 2: The Other thing that struck me is like, it's so

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Speaker 2: seldom that I've seen him do one thing at a

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Speaker 2: time that where they actually sit and have a conversation

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Speaker 2: with someone where he isn't playing a video game or true.

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Speaker 2: It's always this other reality that occupies him, and I

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Speaker 2: think it him.

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Speaker 1: It's not his natural way of interacting with people.

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Speaker 2: He's shuffling card decks or he's doing and so he's

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Speaker 2: really being.

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Speaker 1: Stressed by this, like his natural mo o is not allowed.

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Speaker 2: I'm just I'm kind of impressed by his fiber, you know,

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Speaker 2: I just like I'm impressed by by how he was.

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Speaker 1: Hard to do and riveting as theater. Just like riveting

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Speaker 1: as theater. Yeah, I don't. I mean, did you? Were

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Speaker 1: you getting the same vibe that, like, he's not answering

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Speaker 1: the question, were you?

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Speaker 3: Well, we were all. We were all every time he

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Speaker 3: started doing answering a question, we were all like, oh no, so.

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Speaker 1: What the substance of the thing.

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Speaker 2: They were supposed to be just talking of those two

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Speaker 2: and a half hour three hours about whether they could

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Speaker 2: introduce the role that lawyers played in his life, and

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Speaker 2: instead she did Daniel Sasson took it to a place

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Speaker 2: where did you think it was okay? Did you think

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Speaker 2: you had the right to uh to steal customers money?

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Speaker 3: Did you do you remember the part there was a

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Speaker 3: section about safeguarding and she said, what does safeguarding mean

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Speaker 3: to you?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 3: Sam, that is it just keeping Because originally he talked

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Speaker 3: about how one way that they safeguarded customer assets was

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Speaker 3: to try and protect from hacks, right, And then she

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Speaker 3: said to safeguarding, I mean only protecting from hacks and

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Speaker 3: he responded, no, I had more to say, and she

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Speaker 3: said to you, does it also mean not embuzzling funds?

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Speaker 2: And he said, you know, And at that moment that

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Speaker 2: his lawyer objected, the judge said sustained, like you're not

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Speaker 2: going to have to answer that question. And he answered

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Speaker 2: it anyway, and he smile, he laughed. He said, I

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Speaker 2: felt I needed to answer that one.

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Speaker 3: And he said he does think safeguarding includes not inmbuzzling

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Speaker 3: funds exactly.

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Speaker 2: He had a humor about him, which was also to

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Speaker 2: his credit, and the judge, you know, it's funny. The

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Speaker 2: judge obviously had an abstract dislike of him by the

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Speaker 2: time he arrived here for his trial, and based on

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Speaker 2: Sam seeming, they're going to be testing every.

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Speaker 1: Rule of house arrest.

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Speaker 2: And the judge has a reputation is he and judge,

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Speaker 2: But you could tell the judge is taking an interest

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Speaker 2: in him.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, like you have a really unusual way of

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Speaker 1: answering questions.

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Speaker 2: But he also like there was a moment when the

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Speaker 2: judge needed blockchain or something explained, and asked Sam to

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Speaker 2: explain it.

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Speaker 1: Sam's a wonderful explainer.

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Speaker 2: You can see how good a teacher it is, right

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Speaker 2: like when he wants to explain something here, really very

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Speaker 2: good at doing it. And the judge was, I could

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Speaker 2: tell it if this thing we're going to jump the shark.

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Speaker 2: The judge would get really interested in crypto in the

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Speaker 2: middle of this trial and just sort of pause the

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Speaker 2: trial to have Sam teach him all about crypto because.

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Speaker 1: He's just so interesting what he's learning from Sam.

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Speaker 2: And there was a little of that going on, and

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Speaker 2: in the darkness of his soul, in his most private place,

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Speaker 2: I think the judge would say, this is an interesting person.

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Speaker 3: And the judge even made a bit of a comment

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Speaker 3: like that. At one point, Sam BigMan Freed said I'm

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Speaker 3: not sure if I should answer this question. He said

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Speaker 3: something legal like, I'm worried it's outside the scope. I

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Speaker 3: forget what exact legal term was, and the judg responded,

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Speaker 3: leave that to me. You know your role is to

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Speaker 3: explain blockchain basically, that's right to me, Yeah, exactly exactly.

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Speaker 2: Judging Sam will be right back. Welcome back to judging, Sam.

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Speaker 1: I've just arrived at the court.

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Speaker 2: It's the first time I've been here twenty seven days.

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Speaker 2: I've been on the road, and I've had a couple

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Speaker 2: like reactions.

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Speaker 1: It's funny.

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Speaker 2: I feel like I've walked into your high school. That's

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Speaker 2: what I They already have their clicks. Yes, they already

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Speaker 2: know they're having lunch with. Yeah, they already know who's

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Speaker 2: they're going to share notes with, and who's okay to

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Speaker 2: talk to and who's not there. There is this obviously

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Speaker 2: a group, and you're included in this group of the

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Speaker 2: highly ambitious, aggressive people who get here early enough.

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Speaker 1: To get into the courtroom.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I mean I talked to one coming out the door.

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Speaker 2: She says she got to hear a bit before three

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Speaker 2: in the morning, and she was seventh and one.

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Speaker 3: And then, were you like, my producer is such as

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Speaker 3: slacker because she got to here four thirty.

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Speaker 1: I met the one of the marshalls who who watches

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Speaker 1: the door and delightful guy. Oh, they're great, delightful guy.

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Speaker 1: But this was even better. He listens to this podcast.

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Speaker 2: Now, if you'd ask me, what if I was a

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Speaker 2: marshal in a courthouse and I spent my day watching

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Speaker 2: that trial, what would I do with my free time afterwards?

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Speaker 1: It would not be.

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Speaker 2: Listening to a podcast about the trial. But he's listening

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Speaker 2: to the podcast about the trial and he's read the book.

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Speaker 2: And his attitude about that was, it's I really love

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Speaker 2: knowing the story like the person. You know, you don't

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Speaker 2: get the story here. You get none of the humanity,

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Speaker 2: you get none of the real person. And that was

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Speaker 2: and that's something you notice in these from these trials,

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Speaker 2: as you're getting such a weird, abstracted sliver of the

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Speaker 2: experience and none of the context. And the only way

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Speaker 2: you're getting the characters really is indirectly from how they

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Speaker 2: are on the witness stand.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and then you end up filling a lot

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Speaker 3: of the gaps or your imagination.

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Speaker 1: That's right, and that's that's right. So, uh, what else

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Speaker 1: did I notice?

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Speaker 2: How chill like the guards are going into the place

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Speaker 2: like it's not it doesn't feel like all these people,

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Speaker 2: these peop we should be in charge of TSA if

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Speaker 2: TSA ran as well as this, and it was just

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Speaker 2: fun to go through and as easy and as reasonable

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Speaker 2: like flying would be a different experience.

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Speaker 1: So I was surprised by that.

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Speaker 2: I thought it was gonna be miserable bureaucracy, and actually

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Speaker 2: they're like they're kind of really good at what they whatever.

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Speaker 1: They run this place.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm surprised by art struck by how authoritative the

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Speaker 2: judge is, Like, he just runs the thing it is

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Speaker 2: that he's not. He just takes no nonsense.

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Speaker 1: And I can almost I get the point today where

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Speaker 1: I could guess where he was gonna lose his patience.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, you were telling me, and then right after that you.

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Speaker 2: Could see I could say, this is bothering me, So

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Speaker 2: I bet it's bothering him. And then right away, boom,

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Speaker 2: he's on it. And I thought that's kind of It's

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Speaker 2: kind of cool. I imagined him. I don't know it,

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Speaker 2: and I imagine, but I didn't imagine it would be quite.

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Speaker 1: As aggress as aggressive as he was. This is a

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Speaker 1: side and kind of narcissistic note. It was kind of

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Speaker 1: funny walking too. Everybody wanted me to signed books.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I thought that It's funny that I didn't realize

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Speaker 2: the book was quite as well.

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Speaker 3: People bring your book every day, it's not just because

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Speaker 3: they knew you were coming.

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Speaker 2: It was fun to see that people are kind of

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Speaker 2: in the middle of it. And so this is like

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Speaker 2: this other reality. There's this trial going on in this

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Speaker 2: libretto to the opera, so I wasn't expecting that.

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Speaker 1: What else caught my eye? Oh well, you know, if

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Speaker 1: you're in there, just what a partial view you get.

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Speaker 1: This is true to life.

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Speaker 2: No matter where you are, you always just see where

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Speaker 2: your view is your view, And just because you're in

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Speaker 2: the courtroom doesn't mean you have the whole.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you have the view of either the witness or

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Speaker 1: maybe you can see the jury.

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Speaker 2: You can see maybe the sides of the faces of

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Speaker 2: Sam's parents, see backs of the prosecutors. Just because you're there,

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Speaker 2: it doesn't mean you're there. My normal reporting, like instinct

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Speaker 2: is to literally when I'm to walk around to.

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Speaker 1: See whatever the setting is.

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Speaker 2: If it's like ftx's office in the Bahamas, I would

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Speaker 2: just I'd sit in different places. I'd see it, trying

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Speaker 2: to see it from every angle, because you never know

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Speaker 2: what you're missing if you're just sitting in one spot

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Speaker 2: and here you're kind of.

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Speaker 1: Constrained because you can't quite do that. Yeah, there's a

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Speaker 1: little part of me that was a tiny bit frustrated.

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Speaker 2: Did pick out the guy on the on the jury

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Speaker 2: who was apparently my former Solomon Brother's colleague, And I

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Speaker 2: find it just wild that the person who probably.

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Speaker 1: Knows the most about this and can explain to everybody else,

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Speaker 1: was it Solomon the Brothers me, there's something full circle

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Speaker 1: is about this.

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Speaker 2: I just can't get out of my head because I

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Speaker 2: really was thinking of Liars Poker and I read this book.

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Speaker 1: I thought, it's like it's another version of what's supposed

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Speaker 1: to be a.

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Speaker 2: Business being actually, you know, off the rails, frat house

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Speaker 2: kind of the behavior that's going on in here bears

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Speaker 2: no relation to what people think when they think corporation.

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Speaker 2: It's this all over again, but it's being recreated in

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Speaker 2: crypto different characters. It's nerds rather than jocks, and it's

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Speaker 2: but it's but same little bit of the same vibe.

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Speaker 2: And so that we have the guy who was there

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Speaker 2: at the start sitting there in the trial making evaluations

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Speaker 2: of this version of it.

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Speaker 1: I wonder if it's gonna that Penty's gonna drop for him.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I wonder he's been paying attention, close.

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Speaker 1: Attention, seemed you know, I only on a glimpse of it.

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Speaker 3: So tomorrow Sam Mgmunfreed will take the stand for real

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Speaker 3: in front of a jury. Yes, what are you interested

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Speaker 3: to see?

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Speaker 1: See?

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Speaker 2: If he had adjusts in response to what just happened,

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Speaker 2: and makes a point of trying to answer simply and

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Speaker 2: directly questions every possible question that could be answered simply

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Speaker 2: and directly. And if he doesn't, how that plays, And

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Speaker 2: there'll be lots of root questions and he'll be asked

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Speaker 2: and he'll have to answer, and I think he has

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Speaker 2: answers for some of them. I think this is that

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Speaker 2: it's it's some ways a very simple case, but some

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Speaker 2: ways a very complicated case. And I think that we'll

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Speaker 2: see both both sides of it tomorrow, and I suspect

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Speaker 2: it's gonna.

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Speaker 1: Go on all day.

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Speaker 3: I definitely. I mean Sam doesn't answer quickly.

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Speaker 1: No, he's drawing this out right.

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Speaker 3: Well, I'm excited to see you tomorrow.

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Speaker 1: All right, see tomorrow.

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Speaker 2: We'll be back in your feed soon with more expert

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Speaker 2: analysis and news from Sam Bekman Freed's trial. Thanks for listening.

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Speaker 2: Lydia Get is our court reporter. Katherine Gerardeau and Nisha

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Speaker 2: Venken produced this show. Sophie Crane is our editor. Our

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Speaker 2: music was composed by Matthias Bossi and John Evans of

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Speaker 2: stell Wagons.

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Speaker 1: Symphonet.

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Speaker 2: Judging Sam is a production of Pushkin Industries. Got a

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Speaker 2: question or comment for me, There's a website for that

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Speaker 2: atr podcast dot com. That's atr podcast dot com. To

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Speaker 2: find more Pushkin podcasts, listen on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

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Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your podcasts. If you'd like

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00:17:41,876 --> 00:17:45,676
Speaker 2: to access bonus episodes and listen ad free, don't forget

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00:17:45,716 --> 00:17:48,516
Speaker 2: to sign up for a Pushkin Plus subscription at pushkin

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Speaker 2: dot fm, slash plus, or on our Apple show page