1 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: Climb Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel one. 2 00:00:09,760 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Thirty two residents living in this small Texas town stunt 3 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: trying to make sense of what's described as a Sunday 4 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:18,759 Speaker 1: service massacre. Who was dressed in all black. The suspect 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: cross the street to the church his vehicle and began 6 00:00:21,920 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: firing at the church. It was rapid fire. Year old 7 00:00:26,920 --> 00:00:30,920 Speaker 1: Devon Patrick Kelly open fire inside Sutherland Springs First Baptist Church. 8 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: A local resident grabbed his riffle and engaged that suspect. 9 00:00:34,200 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: He was killed after fleeing the scene. I never thought 10 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,239 Speaker 1: it would happen here. I mean, this is something that 11 00:00:39,360 --> 00:00:41,920 Speaker 1: takes place in a big city. Doesn't make any sense. 12 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:45,000 Speaker 1: A devastating blow in this close knit community. Really, from 13 00:00:45,040 --> 00:00:48,120 Speaker 1: what's being called the country's deadliest shooting inside a house 14 00:00:48,159 --> 00:00:51,120 Speaker 1: of worship, all of America is praying to God to 15 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: help the wounded and the families of the victims. We 16 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:58,720 Speaker 1: will never ever leave their side. Ever, how could a 17 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:03,400 Speaker 1: year old man, a young man in the prime of 18 00:01:03,440 --> 00:01:08,320 Speaker 1: his life, be so evil and so twisted that he 19 00:01:08,520 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: guns down twenty six people at least including eight members 20 00:01:13,120 --> 00:01:17,440 Speaker 1: of one family. This is a former member of the U. S. 21 00:01:17,480 --> 00:01:21,800 Speaker 1: Air Force, and to make matters worse, goes to a 22 00:01:21,959 --> 00:01:26,120 Speaker 1: church at worship hour on a Sunday morning to wreak 23 00:01:26,520 --> 00:01:29,959 Speaker 1: havoc I Nancy Grace, this is crime stories. Thank you 24 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:33,840 Speaker 1: for being with us this morning. Why that's the big question. 25 00:01:34,319 --> 00:01:37,120 Speaker 1: At least twenty six people shot dead by a gunman, 26 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,560 Speaker 1: at least twenty four others being treated for horrible injuries. 27 00:01:41,920 --> 00:01:47,040 Speaker 1: Unmarried dad. Unmarried dad walks into the first Baptist Church 28 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:52,960 Speaker 1: of Sutherland Springs, Texas and opens fire, opens the fire, 29 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:57,640 Speaker 1: then he flees, many people claiming he was mentally ill. 30 00:01:57,720 --> 00:02:01,920 Speaker 1: But if he was mentally ill, why did he know 31 00:02:02,280 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: to dress solid black, wearing tactical gear, carrying a military 32 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:12,000 Speaker 1: style assault rifle. How did he plan it out so 33 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:16,359 Speaker 1: cohesively if he was insane, if he knew it was wrong, 34 00:02:16,680 --> 00:02:20,920 Speaker 1: why did he run? Why was he pursued and he 35 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,360 Speaker 1: knew to run? It's very unclear. But what we know 36 00:02:25,720 --> 00:02:30,239 Speaker 1: right now is that these people, these saints, are dead. 37 00:02:31,120 --> 00:02:37,120 Speaker 1: The church pastor and his beautiful adopted daughter Annabelle dead, 38 00:02:37,720 --> 00:02:42,360 Speaker 1: Brian Carla Holcome, their daughter in law, Crystal dead, a 39 00:02:42,480 --> 00:02:45,400 Speaker 1: mother of four, Joey and Ward and her two daughters, 40 00:02:45,520 --> 00:02:52,040 Speaker 1: Brooks just six and Emily, just eight, dead. It goes 41 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:57,320 Speaker 1: on and on, joining me, Art Harris, investigative reporter, five 42 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:02,120 Speaker 1: time Emmy Award winner Dr Bethany Marshall, psychoanalysts, joining us 43 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: from l A and Joseph Scott Morrigan, Professor of Forensics 44 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 1: at Jacksonville State University, death investigator. Also with me. Bruce Alexander, 45 00:03:12,200 --> 00:03:15,520 Speaker 1: a terror expert with over thirty years in counter terrorism. 46 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 1: He served on the Executive Protection Details several caps for 47 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: several Cabinet members and has trained many foreign presidents security details. Personally, 48 00:03:25,760 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: to all of you, thank you for being with us, 49 00:03:27,919 --> 00:03:31,040 Speaker 1: even under these grim conditions. Aren't here as first to you? 50 00:03:31,080 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 1: What happened? Nancy? Authorities have identified twenty six year old 51 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,920 Speaker 1: Devon Patrick Kelly as the shooter in the Texas massacre 52 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: who went into this church in Sutherland Springs, first Baptist 53 00:03:42,560 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 1: church and opens fire with an A R fifteen style 54 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: weapon and kills twenty six people, wounding scores of others 55 00:03:49,880 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: before he runs. Well, how did it happen? I mean, 56 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:55,840 Speaker 1: were they in the middle of the church service? What 57 00:03:56,040 --> 00:03:57,880 Speaker 1: time was that? I mean? Were they all standing up? 58 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,760 Speaker 1: Uh singing? A hymn, So nobody's so him come in? 59 00:04:01,000 --> 00:04:04,160 Speaker 1: Did he come in? While there? I remember the last 60 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:07,920 Speaker 1: church shooter. I believe it was in Charleston. He actually 61 00:04:07,960 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: waited till everybody had their eyes closed and we're praying 62 00:04:11,600 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: to our Holy Father in heaven and and started shooting. 63 00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: Do we know how it went down? Exactly Art Nancy. 64 00:04:18,400 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: Apparently in the middle of a church service. He begins 65 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 1: shooting from the outside and then goes inside, and neighbors 66 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:29,760 Speaker 1: report hearing about a hundred rounds going off, and it 67 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 1: is unclear exactly the sequence. However, he caught everybody by surprise. 68 00:04:35,480 --> 00:04:39,799 Speaker 1: And but before it was over, a massacre of historic 69 00:04:39,839 --> 00:04:43,960 Speaker 1: proportions in Texas. You know, Joe Scott Morgan and eight 70 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: months pregnant mom and three of her children were murdered. 71 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,920 Speaker 1: I'm just I'm just beside myself. How are they going 72 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: to process this scene? And Joe Scott One of the 73 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,960 Speaker 1: reasons I keep pounding at, chipping away at how did 74 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,080 Speaker 1: it happen? Because the m O, the motors operandi, the 75 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,640 Speaker 1: method of operation, is going to tell me anyway whether 76 00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,320 Speaker 1: this guy knew what he was doing, because I think 77 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: he did know. I think he knew very well. I 78 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 1: want to know why he targeted this church, why he 79 00:05:14,160 --> 00:05:17,400 Speaker 1: did what he did? Uh? Specifically, was there a person 80 00:05:17,520 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: he was after had was he angry at this church? 81 00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: Was he angry at church in general? Why? Why this church? 82 00:05:23,560 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 1: Why at that time? I want to know his every 83 00:05:26,800 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 1: move because it will help me determine was he mainly 84 00:05:30,520 --> 00:05:32,760 Speaker 1: ill or is he just pure evil? That's what I 85 00:05:32,760 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: want to know, Joseph Scott Morgan. And how can they 86 00:05:34,680 --> 00:05:38,000 Speaker 1: figure that out from a crime scene? Yeah, sequencing is 87 00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,240 Speaker 1: the key here, uh, Nancy, the idea of where he 88 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 1: approached from, how he went about methodic pople And it 89 00:05:44,640 --> 00:05:47,240 Speaker 1: also gives you an indication from a crime scene perspective, 90 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 1: if this individual was familiar with the interior of this 91 00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,119 Speaker 1: church and how it kind of laid out. And also 92 00:05:53,160 --> 00:05:56,280 Speaker 1: the sequencing is important here because of the timing. Who 93 00:05:56,400 --> 00:06:00,680 Speaker 1: was shot first? Was he targeting the speaker, the music, minister, 94 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:04,159 Speaker 1: the past or whomever it was, um, And that could 95 00:06:04,200 --> 00:06:08,800 Speaker 1: give you an initial indication of what his purpose was there. Uh. 96 00:06:08,839 --> 00:06:12,400 Speaker 1: And this this is an overwhelming crime scene, Nancy, when 97 00:06:12,440 --> 00:06:15,640 Speaker 1: you have multiple dead at a scene. This is a 98 00:06:15,720 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: very contained area. This is not a huge church. You've 99 00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,559 Speaker 1: got people that are literally laying on top of one another. 100 00:06:22,640 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 1: You can immagine these these parents that are trying to 101 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: protect their young kids, they're laying on top of them. 102 00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:31,040 Speaker 1: Potentially you've got spent casings that are all over the place. 103 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:34,840 Speaker 1: It's a hellish nightmare for crime scene investigator UH to 104 00:06:35,160 --> 00:06:37,640 Speaker 1: walking and processes sing UH step by step and there 105 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: will be a lot of questions as you can imagine 106 00:06:39,640 --> 00:06:42,360 Speaker 1: going forward. So sequence is very very important and it's 107 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:46,320 Speaker 1: key to all of this well. As horrific details of 108 00:06:46,360 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 1: this cowardly attack are emerging, police sources are saying there 109 00:06:50,920 --> 00:06:56,120 Speaker 1: was probably quote no way for the worshippers to escape. 110 00:06:56,760 --> 00:06:59,679 Speaker 1: The Wilson County Sheriff Joe D. Tech At Jr. Says 111 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: that Kelly walked down the center aisle, turned around and 112 00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:09,720 Speaker 1: started shooting on his way back out. So he walks 113 00:07:09,760 --> 00:07:13,680 Speaker 1: down the aisle like you're going towards the altar, turns 114 00:07:13,720 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: around to look at the congregation and start shooting on 115 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:22,000 Speaker 1: his way back out. He could see unfold in front 116 00:07:22,040 --> 00:07:25,960 Speaker 1: of him. Dr Bethany Marshall, he could see unfolding in 117 00:07:26,000 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: front of him as he walked forward, children, women, men, 118 00:07:30,480 --> 00:07:35,360 Speaker 1: a pregnant woman just falling and he continued to shoot. 119 00:07:35,600 --> 00:07:40,880 Speaker 1: Dr Bethany. It's so frightening and chilling mean the way 120 00:07:40,880 --> 00:07:43,440 Speaker 1: you're describing it. And one of the things that comes 121 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: to my mind, We've talked about this so many times before, Nancy, 122 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 1: is that these shooters love a fish and a barrel 123 00:07:50,520 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 1: type of quality to the crimes. They always like the 124 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: Vegas massacre, you know, on the thirty second floor, Columbine 125 00:07:57,600 --> 00:08:02,360 Speaker 1: walking through classrooms, the Sama Barber School massacre, um walking 126 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 1: classroom doors and then walking into a crowded classroom. These 127 00:08:07,000 --> 00:08:11,920 Speaker 1: shooters seem to love the power differential that always strikes me. 128 00:08:12,440 --> 00:08:15,760 Speaker 1: It's not like they're say, at a crowd at Disneyland, 129 00:08:16,040 --> 00:08:19,360 Speaker 1: or in a big coliseum where people can run and hide, 130 00:08:19,520 --> 00:08:22,720 Speaker 1: or or people have some kind of advantage. They're almost 131 00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:25,880 Speaker 1: always in some kind of a closed space where people 132 00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:29,240 Speaker 1: can't get away. And as a psychoanalyst, I tend to 133 00:08:29,280 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 1: think beyond mental illness and to really the underlying, unconscious 134 00:08:34,280 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: motivations behind these crimes, and it seems to me that 135 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:41,080 Speaker 1: they always go where people are enjoying themselves, where people 136 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:44,720 Speaker 1: are innocent, where there are families gathering, where their children 137 00:08:44,760 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 1: and parents. It's as if they have some acts to 138 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:52,760 Speaker 1: grind or some basic envy towards people who are actually 139 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:56,680 Speaker 1: enjoying their lives. And we know from uh some case 140 00:08:56,720 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 1: studies of the histories of these shooters that they disco 141 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,360 Speaker 1: write their own histories. Whether or not this is true, 142 00:09:02,400 --> 00:09:06,040 Speaker 1: this is their own anecdotal experience. They always describe having 143 00:09:06,080 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 1: been bullied, having been mistreated, as if society has power 144 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:12,880 Speaker 1: over them, and now they're reversing all of that and 145 00:09:12,920 --> 00:09:16,000 Speaker 1: they're trying to have power over society in some kind 146 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,960 Speaker 1: of sick and twisted way. Dothany Marshall, what does it 147 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,679 Speaker 1: mean to you that he wanted to see their faces 148 00:09:22,120 --> 00:09:26,360 Speaker 1: as he gunned them down glee? He was so full 149 00:09:26,400 --> 00:09:29,120 Speaker 1: of glee as he was gunning them down. I mean, 150 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:32,200 Speaker 1: this is a guy who imagines in his own mind 151 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,520 Speaker 1: that he has been um for lack of a better word, 152 00:09:35,520 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: disc by society, that there's a power differential. I mean, 153 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:41,559 Speaker 1: this is somebody who I would imagine if you were 154 00:09:41,600 --> 00:09:44,199 Speaker 1: to meet him in public and had a conversation with him, 155 00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:46,680 Speaker 1: or if you were to come to my consulting room, 156 00:09:47,040 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 1: were described that people criticize him, put him down, Maybe 157 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:53,719 Speaker 1: that he's been a woman has been broken up with him. 158 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:58,040 Speaker 1: He's been unfairly discharged from a job. The society is 159 00:09:58,080 --> 00:10:00,319 Speaker 1: against him. So now he's going to re first of 160 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: all of that, and he's going to be against society. 161 00:10:04,000 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 1: You know. I want to go to Bruce Alexander, our 162 00:10:06,400 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: terror expert. Bruce. I know of one link at least 163 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,880 Speaker 1: he has with this, the First Baptist Church. He was 164 00:10:13,040 --> 00:10:16,120 Speaker 1: married to Danielle Shills. They I think they have a 165 00:10:16,200 --> 00:10:22,120 Speaker 1: child together. She was previously a teacher at First Baptist Church, Bryce, Nancy. 166 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,840 Speaker 1: That suggests me also that that there was a personal 167 00:10:25,840 --> 00:10:30,200 Speaker 1: connection there as perhaps a possible means or motive that 168 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,760 Speaker 1: would precipitate the attack. But I think to your earlier 169 00:10:34,880 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 1: point about how horrific this is, this this is a 170 00:10:38,160 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: particularly insidious attack. And you started off by saying the 171 00:10:42,120 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: fact that look at the venue in which this took place. 172 00:10:44,600 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: It's a church venue. And that suggests to me that 173 00:10:47,280 --> 00:10:51,640 Speaker 1: this was very deliberate and very calculated from a tactical perspective. 174 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: From two points. Number one, church is a welcoming place, 175 00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:57,400 Speaker 1: not to the exclusion of any other toy sort of 176 00:10:57,559 --> 00:11:01,080 Speaker 1: religious institution, but it's a very welcoming place. I saw 177 00:11:01,120 --> 00:11:05,000 Speaker 1: a previous video footage that showed that they frequently opened 178 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:07,719 Speaker 1: up with him, and then the past invited people to 179 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: turn and greet others, perhaps someone they didn't know. Well. 180 00:11:10,720 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: What's particularly insidious about this, and suggested me that this 181 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,320 Speaker 1: was very deliberate, is that the shooter, of nothing else, 182 00:11:17,000 --> 00:11:20,640 Speaker 1: exploited that vulnerability, knowing full well that the mindset, if 183 00:11:20,679 --> 00:11:23,760 Speaker 1: you will, the welcoming nature of that church was going 184 00:11:23,800 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: to be such that the defense, the likelihood of anybody 185 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:31,199 Speaker 1: having any sort of suspicion or even perhaps anybody having 186 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,040 Speaker 1: any degree or preparedness to counter this type of thing, 187 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:36,640 Speaker 1: wasn't gonna be there. So that suggested me he was 188 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: looking for the quintessential soft target. The second thing I 189 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:42,839 Speaker 1: would say, this is a church again by itself, it's 190 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: welcoming and opening nature, UH, does not build into its 191 00:11:46,559 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 1: structures physical security or protective measures. That also suggests to 192 00:11:50,840 --> 00:11:53,840 Speaker 1: me that this is somebody who could exploit that the 193 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:57,600 Speaker 1: lack of built in protective measures a hardened facility. Again, 194 00:11:57,840 --> 00:12:01,280 Speaker 1: it's the quintessential soft tar. Again. And so to your 195 00:12:01,320 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 1: earlier point that led us off to the discussion, UH, 196 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: in my mind, I certainly view it as calculated. I 197 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 1: don't know the motive at this particular point in time 198 00:12:09,520 --> 00:12:12,760 Speaker 1: still to be the determined, but certainly calculated in terms 199 00:12:12,760 --> 00:12:17,240 Speaker 1: of trying to afflict the maximum potential casualties. He certainly 200 00:12:17,320 --> 00:12:20,720 Speaker 1: selected the target reflective of that, and by all accounts 201 00:12:20,760 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: achieved it. What do you make of it, Bruce Alexander? 202 00:12:23,640 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: What Dr Bethany Marshall was analyzing about how so many 203 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 1: of these terroristic shooters like that, as she said, fish 204 00:12:31,360 --> 00:12:35,000 Speaker 1: ball fish in a barrel effect where their victims are helpless, 205 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:39,000 Speaker 1: there's nowhere to go, nowhere to run, they can't get away. 206 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,840 Speaker 1: She's absolutely spot on. Um, when you look at what 207 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,520 Speaker 1: defines these these attackers, uh, you know, the active shooter 208 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:50,960 Speaker 1: leading aside sort of the trying to analyze them, but 209 00:12:51,000 --> 00:12:53,840 Speaker 1: when you look at it from a tactical perspective, their 210 00:12:53,880 --> 00:12:58,560 Speaker 1: intent is to create an inflict math maximum casualties here. 211 00:12:58,760 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: And it's very much similar to what we saw in 212 00:13:01,480 --> 00:13:04,320 Speaker 1: Las Vegas. It's what we saw similar last week. And 213 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:08,800 Speaker 1: so the captive audience guarantees that the tactical outcome that 214 00:13:08,880 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: this attacker is trying to obtain is going to happen. Um, 215 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 1: no place to run, no place to really sort of 216 00:13:15,240 --> 00:13:19,360 Speaker 1: defend yourself using the element of surprise, which you know 217 00:13:19,440 --> 00:13:22,120 Speaker 1: certainly cuts down the ability to react and to defend 218 00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:25,640 Speaker 1: from these kinds of things. They typically seek out that 219 00:13:26,040 --> 00:13:31,520 Speaker 1: again soft target where they can maximize the tactical advantage 220 00:13:31,679 --> 00:13:35,680 Speaker 1: to them and quite frankly, um minimize the likelihood of 221 00:13:35,720 --> 00:13:39,400 Speaker 1: them being killed in the commission of that particular mass 222 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:46,000 Speaker 1: casualty events. So that analysis is spot on. And again 223 00:13:46,160 --> 00:13:48,200 Speaker 1: a church certainly lends itself to that when you have 224 00:13:48,240 --> 00:13:53,760 Speaker 1: a group of congregants without any means defenseless. Uh, it's 225 00:13:53,760 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: certainly UH supports that. Uh, that notion and that confined 226 00:13:59,040 --> 00:14:01,440 Speaker 1: space is where the is a is a desired target. 227 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:04,800 Speaker 1: You know, aren't Harris investigative reporter. You know where I'm 228 00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:07,600 Speaker 1: coming from because you know me so well. But when 229 00:14:07,640 --> 00:14:10,559 Speaker 1: I think about the Sunday school teacher I grew up 230 00:14:10,640 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 1: having actually art, I think you know this the same 231 00:14:15,400 --> 00:14:18,839 Speaker 1: uh first grade, second grade, and third grade teacher as 232 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:22,400 Speaker 1: my sister, brother and mother, And they all sat behind 233 00:14:22,400 --> 00:14:25,400 Speaker 1: me on We would sit on the third row on 234 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: the right, and they would sit on the fourth row 235 00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:29,560 Speaker 1: on the right, right behind me. There's no way I 236 00:14:29,560 --> 00:14:31,640 Speaker 1: can misbehave because that was when they would still hit 237 00:14:31,680 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: you if you miss behaved because totally getting beat at 238 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: school if we did anything wrong. But um, I'm thinking 239 00:14:39,440 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: back about also sitting there would be our Sunday School 240 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:48,480 Speaker 1: teachers and do you know aren't Harris to this day? Um, 241 00:14:48,560 --> 00:14:53,280 Speaker 1: I remember miss Esther ms Julia Mispaced. In fact, I 242 00:14:53,320 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: love miss Esther's class so much, miss Esther Puckett, that 243 00:14:56,920 --> 00:14:59,400 Speaker 1: I think I was three that they let me just 244 00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:03,000 Speaker 1: stay in there every Sunday for I forgot how many years, 245 00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:05,360 Speaker 1: because I didn't want to leave miss Esther. I didn't 246 00:15:05,360 --> 00:15:07,400 Speaker 1: want to graduate. I didn't want to graduate to the 247 00:15:07,440 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 1: next class. And apparently I threw such a fit that 248 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:11,840 Speaker 1: it was just easier to lead me in there with 249 00:15:11,880 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: her than to try to make me advance with you know, 250 00:15:14,640 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: everybody my age. And because I loved her so much, 251 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: and I'm just you know, when I take the twins 252 00:15:21,720 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: to church on Sunday morning, the first stop is getting 253 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 1: the children into Sunday School high drama, and um, they 254 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: love it. As a matter of fact, aren't this past weekend? 255 00:15:31,640 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 1: You know it's the twins turned ten? Can you believe it? 256 00:15:34,440 --> 00:15:37,840 Speaker 1: I just, you know, I'm so blessed they gave little 257 00:15:37,840 --> 00:15:40,840 Speaker 1: posters for their birthday. The teachers had made and had 258 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,040 Speaker 1: them already and decorated the room for them. And I 259 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 1: just who's better than a Sunday school teacher. I mean, 260 00:15:47,560 --> 00:15:50,080 Speaker 1: you hear about preachers having this scandal and that scandal. 261 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: The Sunday school teachers are the volunteers that are showing 262 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 1: up ahead of time to be with children and do 263 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,200 Speaker 1: a good thing and and teach them about love. And 264 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:01,320 Speaker 1: that's what of the victims. I'm so upset. I can 265 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: hardly stand at art Nancy. Ironically, the shooter had also 266 00:16:05,360 --> 00:16:07,800 Speaker 1: taught some Sunday school according to an account, but he 267 00:16:07,840 --> 00:16:11,120 Speaker 1: was a Sunday school teacher with a past few people knew, 268 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 1: perhaps when he walked in that church. If they didn't 269 00:16:13,320 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: know him, his mother in law, by by chance, lived 270 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,680 Speaker 1: in that town and may have gone to the church. 271 00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 1: Not confirmed yet, but he had received a bad conduct 272 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:27,000 Speaker 1: discharge for assaulting his wife and their child while in 273 00:16:27,040 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: the airport. He got a one year confinement. He was 274 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,560 Speaker 1: busted to lowest grade UH rank in the Air Force 275 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 1: and was kicked out in two thousand fourteen. So this 276 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,280 Speaker 1: is someone with a chip in his shoulder. In fact, 277 00:16:39,480 --> 00:16:42,960 Speaker 1: a week before the assault. Nancy reports that his Facebook 278 00:16:43,000 --> 00:16:48,040 Speaker 1: page featured this a R fifteen gun as his lead photo, 279 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:50,840 Speaker 1: almost like a pin up, and the comment he had 280 00:16:50,960 --> 00:16:53,840 Speaker 1: underneath the photo was she is a quote bad bitch. 281 00:16:54,000 --> 00:16:57,280 Speaker 1: Now that is someone who idolized guns and had a 282 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:00,920 Speaker 1: chip on his shoulder that no one could fathom would 283 00:17:00,920 --> 00:17:04,520 Speaker 1: turn into something like this if that is linked. Guys, 284 00:17:04,520 --> 00:17:08,000 Speaker 1: I want to pause just for one moment because our 285 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:13,399 Speaker 1: investigation into the church shooting in Texas it's possible because 286 00:17:13,440 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 1: of our partners. Our partners that make our program possible. 287 00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:20,480 Speaker 1: It's legal Zoom And I want to tell you all 288 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:22,960 Speaker 1: you business owners out there, you know you've got to 289 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 1: keep moving forward. You have to. So many times things 290 00:17:27,240 --> 00:17:29,920 Speaker 1: come up that take your time and focus away from 291 00:17:30,000 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: moving forward with your business. When it comes to things 292 00:17:33,280 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: like reviewing contracts, registering trademarks, staying current on fees, permits, 293 00:17:38,440 --> 00:17:44,440 Speaker 1: hiring contracts, red tape. Legal zoom can simplify your life. 294 00:17:44,800 --> 00:17:48,520 Speaker 1: Legal zoom dot Com was created sixteen years ago by 295 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: the brightest minds in law and technology. They've already helped 296 00:17:52,520 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 1: over two million business owners easily and affordably navigate the 297 00:17:58,119 --> 00:18:01,240 Speaker 1: legal system with confidence. Now, the best part, you never 298 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:05,679 Speaker 1: have to worry about attorneys billable hours piling up behind 299 00:18:05,680 --> 00:18:09,600 Speaker 1: your back because legal zoom is not a law firm. Instead, 300 00:18:09,920 --> 00:18:12,159 Speaker 1: you get the advice you need to answer your business 301 00:18:12,240 --> 00:18:17,159 Speaker 1: questions at fixed rates through legal zooms nationwide network of 302 00:18:17,280 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: independent lawyers. Take pressure off yourself. Go to legal zoom 303 00:18:22,280 --> 00:18:25,280 Speaker 1: dot com now take care of business before the year 304 00:18:25,359 --> 00:18:30,199 Speaker 1: winds down. And for special savings, intercode Nancy at the 305 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,600 Speaker 1: referral box at check out code Nancy in a n 306 00:18:33,640 --> 00:18:37,119 Speaker 1: C Y for special savings. What more could you want? 307 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 1: Only at legal zoom dot com. Legal zoom dot com, 308 00:18:43,240 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: thank you for helping business owners across the country, and 309 00:18:46,320 --> 00:18:50,000 Speaker 1: thank you legal zoom dot com for being our partner today. 310 00:18:50,280 --> 00:18:53,240 Speaker 1: I want to go back to the Texas shooting. We're 311 00:18:53,280 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 1: talking about the Purp. We know he's the Purp. There's 312 00:18:56,160 --> 00:18:58,920 Speaker 1: no doubt he's the Purp. What I want to talk 313 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,240 Speaker 1: about is whether he was mentally ill, because that's what's 314 00:19:01,240 --> 00:19:03,920 Speaker 1: being floated right now. Now. Are you're telling me something 315 00:19:03,960 --> 00:19:07,480 Speaker 1: I didn't know? Are you telling me that this guy 316 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 1: was a Sunday school teacher before he was a mass killer. 317 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,640 Speaker 1: There are some reports that he taught a Bible study 318 00:19:15,040 --> 00:19:19,640 Speaker 1: in a church in Texas at one point, and that 319 00:19:20,040 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 1: before that, though Nancy, he was discharged from the airport 320 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,640 Speaker 1: the air Force for beating his wife and child, and 321 00:19:27,040 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 1: in two thousand fourteen got his bad conduct discharge dishonorable discharge. 322 00:19:31,320 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: People are not allowed to buy weapons like this, and 323 00:19:35,160 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 1: you also are banned if you have been convicted of 324 00:19:37,960 --> 00:19:43,520 Speaker 1: domestic abuse. So he was a two time violator of 325 00:19:43,520 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 1: of the federal laws that would allow someone to buy 326 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,040 Speaker 1: a gun. The question is did he get this gun 327 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: before he was discharged and got uh, you know, got 328 00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,440 Speaker 1: banned or we don't know if he was turned down, 329 00:19:56,480 --> 00:20:00,280 Speaker 1: if he applied for a gun after and got, or 330 00:20:00,280 --> 00:20:02,960 Speaker 1: if bought this before. One thing we're learning as this 331 00:20:03,000 --> 00:20:06,720 Speaker 1: guy was called a creepy outcast who quote preached his 332 00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:13,600 Speaker 1: atheism online before killing twenty six people. Now, one guy, 333 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:17,320 Speaker 1: Patrick Boyce, who attended high school with the killer, says 334 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:21,159 Speaker 1: that he had a kid fairly normal but quiet and 335 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:25,040 Speaker 1: lately seemed depressed. He was the first atheist I met. 336 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:29,480 Speaker 1: I was shocked to hear the news. Now I'm trying 337 00:20:29,520 --> 00:20:33,000 Speaker 1: to factor in who, what, what all this means? If anything, 338 00:20:33,560 --> 00:20:36,439 Speaker 1: I'm trying to figure out how you go from being 339 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:40,840 Speaker 1: a Sunday school teacher to becoming an atheist. He quote 340 00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:43,080 Speaker 1: he was always talking about how people who believe in 341 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 1: God are stupid and trying to preach his atheism. Well, 342 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:51,719 Speaker 1: you know, Dr Bethany, a lot of Christians are used 343 00:20:51,720 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: to that, being told they're stupid for believing in in 344 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:59,000 Speaker 1: God or Christ or any higher higher power. And it's 345 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,320 Speaker 1: not just Christians. I mean, Art, you're a devout Jew. 346 00:21:03,880 --> 00:21:07,840 Speaker 1: I mean, Jews have been persecuted since you know, from 347 00:21:07,840 --> 00:21:10,080 Speaker 1: the very beginning. They're being persecuted way back in the 348 00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: Old Testament. For Pete's sake. People have always claimed that 349 00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:18,479 Speaker 1: people of faith are stupid, all right, So I'm starting 350 00:21:18,480 --> 00:21:20,639 Speaker 1: to get an idea here, Art Hairs, do you know 351 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,360 Speaker 1: any facts before I go to Bethany on this that 352 00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 1: he called people that believed in a higher power, whether 353 00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: you're a Jew or a Christian, Muslim, whatever, you are, 354 00:21:31,119 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 1: are all stupid. Other than his friends who was quoted 355 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:38,400 Speaker 1: Nancy Uh, It's unclear, however, this is someone who obviously 356 00:21:38,400 --> 00:21:42,320 Speaker 1: had no reverence for life or had no faith uh 357 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:45,679 Speaker 1: in in life or a higher power to do something 358 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 1: like this. So it's by his very actions he speaks 359 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,679 Speaker 1: about a belief or disbelief in uh, a higher power. 360 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:59,960 Speaker 1: You know, Bruce Alexander are terror expert joining us today. Bruce, 361 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:03,320 Speaker 1: how long would it have taken to plan this thing out? 362 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,880 Speaker 1: Because he was spotted at a gas station just before 363 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,800 Speaker 1: the shooting in full tactical gear, getting enough gas to 364 00:22:08,800 --> 00:22:12,399 Speaker 1: try to make a getaway, brace, Nancy, the planning cycle 365 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,000 Speaker 1: in this particular case, given the target would have been 366 00:22:16,119 --> 00:22:20,640 Speaker 1: relatively short. Uh. Let me contrast that to answer your 367 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: question by perhaps let's let's look at last week with 368 00:22:23,000 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 1: the terrorist attack in New York. We do know that, 369 00:22:25,480 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 1: based on reports, was that there was some element of 370 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 1: pre operational surveillance, which is a typical hallmark in terrorist attacks. 371 00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 1: And so because of the nature of the type of 372 00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 1: attacks that they did, my senses and this one was 373 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,840 Speaker 1: that he had some sort of pre operational surveillance. But 374 00:22:42,920 --> 00:22:45,240 Speaker 1: in this case, that pre operational surveillance could have been 375 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,800 Speaker 1: nothing more than what he did at that gas station 376 00:22:47,800 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: ahead of time. Would have consisted of looking down the 377 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 1: streets and sure there's no local law enforcement there, ensuring 378 00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:55,840 Speaker 1: that he had immediate access of quick access right to 379 00:22:55,880 --> 00:22:59,359 Speaker 1: the front. His objective was to create maximum amount of 380 00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:02,720 Speaker 1: casualties and a minimum amount of time. So he could 381 00:23:02,760 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 1: have planned that, um almost nearly spontaneously. But I go 382 00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: back to the fact that spontaneously if you had to 383 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:15,440 Speaker 1: get dressed up in that get up like a little 384 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:17,800 Speaker 1: kids dressing up for Halloween and then got to get 385 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,000 Speaker 1: gassed to fill up his tank for the getaway, You're 386 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right he could have as I was leading 387 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: to my senses, is no, it was. It was far 388 00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:31,359 Speaker 1: more premeditated and deliberate. Part of the reasons why are 389 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:34,360 Speaker 1: the ones that that you just suggested. The other thing 390 00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:37,120 Speaker 1: that tells me is this the guy came in with 391 00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:39,760 Speaker 1: with there over a hundred rounds fire that a r 392 00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: that ruger a are typically uh, you know Max's capacity 393 00:23:43,800 --> 00:23:46,600 Speaker 1: has a magazine of thirty rounds. That suggests to me 394 00:23:46,720 --> 00:23:51,840 Speaker 1: that he changed magazines at least three, probably closer to 395 00:23:51,880 --> 00:23:54,640 Speaker 1: four times. He was prepared for that. The other thing 396 00:23:54,680 --> 00:23:57,600 Speaker 1: that tells me that there was some element of planning 397 00:23:57,600 --> 00:23:59,640 Speaker 1: that went into this ahead of time was how did 398 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:01,920 Speaker 1: he know the extent of the magazines, the number of 399 00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:03,960 Speaker 1: magazines that he had there. Those are the kinds of 400 00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:07,240 Speaker 1: things that the law enforcement will be looking at, but 401 00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:10,280 Speaker 1: in this particular case, it suggests to me that you know, 402 00:24:10,359 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: there was a planning cycle that that that took place 403 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 1: there and to the earlier point, knowing he was going 404 00:24:15,320 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 1: to be able to inflict that many casualties in a 405 00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: confined area there. That also suggests to me that there 406 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,199 Speaker 1: was some thought given to this crazy maybe crazy like 407 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 1: a fox. I would say, you know, one little girl shot, 408 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:33,040 Speaker 1: one child shot multiple times, Another little girl, Dr Bethany 409 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: had her glasses shot off her face and she jumped 410 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 1: below a pew and hid Nancy. It's hard for me 411 00:24:40,680 --> 00:24:45,280 Speaker 1: to even absorb these details. It's so as I said earlier, chilling, 412 00:24:45,400 --> 00:24:48,600 Speaker 1: it's so tragic. I think. You know, my dad's a minister, 413 00:24:48,840 --> 00:24:51,679 Speaker 1: so I grew up in the church and one of 414 00:24:51,680 --> 00:24:54,679 Speaker 1: the things I observed growing up and and I've really 415 00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,440 Speaker 1: my belief in this has been solidified throughout my training 416 00:24:57,480 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 1: to be a psychoanalyst, as that sure, religious organizations are 417 00:25:01,920 --> 00:25:05,280 Speaker 1: where happy people gather. People are enjoying each other there 418 00:25:05,280 --> 00:25:07,959 Speaker 1: with their families. You know, children are going to Sunday 419 00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 1: school as you described. And I think that shooters target 420 00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:18,280 Speaker 1: people who are happy. I mean basically, they go where 421 00:25:18,320 --> 00:25:22,200 Speaker 1: people are enjoying each other and they wreak havoc and 422 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:26,280 Speaker 1: the fact that this guy was preaching atheism online, to me, 423 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:30,240 Speaker 1: that speaks to his grandiose grandiosity and maybe even being 424 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:36,640 Speaker 1: a sociopath, because these sociopaths act like everybody's stupid with them. Well, 425 00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:42,440 Speaker 1: how how did I true, Nancy? I mean, this guy 426 00:25:42,480 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: had a message. Wait a minute, what is it? Why 427 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:51,320 Speaker 1: our atheists always trying to convert everybody to atheism? Why 428 00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:55,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna have to think about that. They actually it's 429 00:25:55,400 --> 00:25:59,359 Speaker 1: so as if they have intellectual superiority as a people 430 00:25:59,400 --> 00:26:10,359 Speaker 1: who BELI okay, so let's think about Sandy hook. So 431 00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:15,720 Speaker 1: as I remember that that mass shooting, the shooter's mother 432 00:26:15,880 --> 00:26:18,440 Speaker 1: was a teacher at the school. Remember that, And in 433 00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:21,080 Speaker 1: this case, are you saying his mother in law or 434 00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:26,040 Speaker 1: his life teacher? His wife had been a teacher at 435 00:26:26,080 --> 00:26:28,800 Speaker 1: the church's that's the only report I have, So he 436 00:26:28,920 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 1: had that connection before. I forget this thought. It seems 437 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,040 Speaker 1: like a total disregard for life. And it's just actually 438 00:26:35,119 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: Jackie's thought here in the studio with me, by killing children, 439 00:26:38,240 --> 00:26:41,199 Speaker 1: children he didn't even know to gun down children? Well 440 00:26:41,280 --> 00:26:42,919 Speaker 1: what is that, Beth? And he helped me out. I'm 441 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:45,640 Speaker 1: just a trial lawyer. Okay. So I always think about 442 00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: the role of envy in these crimes, and one of 443 00:26:48,400 --> 00:26:50,680 Speaker 1: the things I was taught during my training is that 444 00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 1: envy and jealousy are a motivator for almost every single crime. 445 00:26:55,320 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 1: You can't be happy because I can't stand it. You 446 00:26:58,520 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 1: can't enjoy your family, you can't go to church, you 447 00:27:00,920 --> 00:27:03,960 Speaker 1: can't worship in peace because I cannot tolerate that you 448 00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:08,159 Speaker 1: are happy because I am so miserable. Basic envy is 449 00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,360 Speaker 1: that I can't take it if you have something good, 450 00:27:10,440 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 1: because it makes me feel bad. And so that's why 451 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 1: I think with these mass shootings, they always go where 452 00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,639 Speaker 1: people are happy. And I do know from being a 453 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:22,640 Speaker 1: pastor's daughter that it seems that often miserable people would 454 00:27:22,720 --> 00:27:26,359 Speaker 1: sometimes gravitate towards the church to stir up trouble because 455 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,200 Speaker 1: they couldn't take the fact that it was a peaceable organization. 456 00:27:29,600 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 1: And obviously this is envy on steroids. I mean, you know, 457 00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:36,040 Speaker 1: if if everybody was envious too, you know, had a gun, 458 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:38,800 Speaker 1: I can't can't even imagine. But I think it's just 459 00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,920 Speaker 1: the basic happiness, Nancy. I think it's that simple. But 460 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: I think because that is one line of psycho analysis 461 00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:52,840 Speaker 1: I haven't ever heard explored that you punish other people 462 00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:57,000 Speaker 1: because they're happy, and so you have to reach vengeance 463 00:27:57,200 --> 00:28:01,159 Speaker 1: on them. So in the end, art this guy, what 464 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 1: happened as he's unloading his weapon. Apparently a neighbor sees 465 00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: this and approaches him with his own gun. Apparently a 466 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 1: here local hero who saved the day and may have 467 00:28:13,720 --> 00:28:15,840 Speaker 1: fired at him, We're not sure, but he chased him 468 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,160 Speaker 1: in his truck in the church or outside the church. 469 00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: Outside the church, he confronts him, has a weapon and disarms, 470 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: or the guy drops his gun and he climbs in 471 00:28:27,119 --> 00:28:29,359 Speaker 1: his truck and runs. And this guy gets into his 472 00:28:29,440 --> 00:28:32,440 Speaker 1: truck and follows him, and the shooter crashes into a 473 00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 1: tree and they find him dead of a gunshot wound. 474 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,840 Speaker 1: It's unclear if it was from the hero local hero, 475 00:28:39,080 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 1: or if he took his own life, but it came 476 00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:46,280 Speaker 1: to an end because of a local hero who otherwise 477 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: this would have been even more horrific. Nancy, you know, 478 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:55,560 Speaker 1: thank God for the hero, and I'm glad it's over 479 00:28:55,720 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: that he didn't drive on in his getaway car to 480 00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: kill more people. But it I'm just trying to absorb 481 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:09,600 Speaker 1: now what those families are going through, you know, and 482 00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: the days and weeks that follow this horrible, horrible thing. 483 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,240 Speaker 1: All we can do is try to find the truth, 484 00:29:19,160 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: try to make it never happen again, and pray for 485 00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:26,080 Speaker 1: the victims and their families. That's when I learned, And 486 00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,520 Speaker 1: all those years of prosecuting, I put one bad guy 487 00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: in jail after the next, after the next, after the next, 488 00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: after the next. I mean I can't even say next 489 00:29:33,640 --> 00:29:37,440 Speaker 1: enough times. Thousands of people aren't you were there with me, 490 00:29:38,240 --> 00:29:42,320 Speaker 1: and I learned. All you can do is try to 491 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,640 Speaker 1: find the truth, try to make sure it doesn't happen again, 492 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,120 Speaker 1: and pray for the victims and their families. And I 493 00:29:49,200 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 1: hope you all join me in that pursuit. I want 494 00:29:54,360 --> 00:29:58,400 Speaker 1: to thank again our sponsors are partners that make today's 495 00:29:58,480 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 1: program possible where we really do search for the truth. 496 00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:06,880 Speaker 1: And today I want to thank Link A k C. 497 00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,880 Speaker 1: Which has given our family so much happiness. Okay, you 498 00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:14,880 Speaker 1: know I have a pound puppy, I have a rescue cat, 499 00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: and now after the twins birthday, I have two guinea pigs, 500 00:30:18,760 --> 00:30:22,480 Speaker 1: Abbey and Chloe. Okay, or as we call them, penny gigs. 501 00:30:23,240 --> 00:30:26,000 Speaker 1: But back to back to fat Boy A K. A nitrobe. 502 00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:29,400 Speaker 1: This thing I found, it's the link A k C 503 00:30:29,560 --> 00:30:32,400 Speaker 1: Coller and it's backed by the American Kettle Club. It 504 00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,400 Speaker 1: is a GPS locator. Now I don't have to worry 505 00:30:35,440 --> 00:30:37,040 Speaker 1: about the cat, because you'll drag back in in the 506 00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:38,960 Speaker 1: middle of the night. I certainly hope. I don't have 507 00:30:39,000 --> 00:30:41,479 Speaker 1: to worry about the guinea pigs. I'll tell you. I've 508 00:30:41,480 --> 00:30:43,760 Speaker 1: got to worry about his fat Boy, my little mutt. 509 00:30:44,400 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: This GPS locator, I love it because I know where 510 00:30:48,040 --> 00:30:50,840 Speaker 1: fat Boy is at all times. And it's uh, not 511 00:30:50,960 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 1: only a GPS locator, but a fitness activity tracker for 512 00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,680 Speaker 1: a dog and a smart phone app all rolled into one. 513 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,400 Speaker 1: I don't have to worry as he run down the 514 00:31:00,480 --> 00:31:02,200 Speaker 1: street barking at the top of his lungs as he 515 00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:04,480 Speaker 1: got run over, has somebody else gotten him as he 516 00:31:04,560 --> 00:31:07,120 Speaker 1: jumped over the fence. I can see exactly where fat 517 00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,080 Speaker 1: Boy is right on the app and this total piece 518 00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:13,600 Speaker 1: of mind. Favorite part that I love is the idea 519 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: of a wellness tracker for a dog. And it doesn't 520 00:31:16,720 --> 00:31:18,720 Speaker 1: matter how old your dog is, whether it's a pure 521 00:31:18,800 --> 00:31:21,680 Speaker 1: breed or a like fat Boy. Link a k C 522 00:31:21,920 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: shows the exact amount of activity every dog needs and 523 00:31:26,440 --> 00:31:28,240 Speaker 1: it's so easy to set up, which is good for me. 524 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: Their sizes for every dog and it's super comfy and sporty. 525 00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,720 Speaker 1: Link a k C looks good on fat Boy. Check 526 00:31:36,800 --> 00:31:38,840 Speaker 1: him out on Instagram, Facebook, and Twitter to see what 527 00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: he looks like, My little Prince. Keep your dog safe, 528 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,920 Speaker 1: happy and healthy. It's easier now with a special offer 529 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,040 Speaker 1: from link a k C. Go to link a KC 530 00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:53,520 Speaker 1: dot com use code Nancy save a whopping thirty off 531 00:31:53,600 --> 00:31:58,000 Speaker 1: your order plus free shipping. Yes off your order with 532 00:31:58,120 --> 00:32:02,440 Speaker 1: free shipping link AKC dot com link a k C 533 00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:06,760 Speaker 1: dot com code Nancy, link a k C. Thank you 534 00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:12,040 Speaker 1: so much for keeping fat Boy healthy and safe and autistic. 535 00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 1: Teen Boy is dead and now we are learning of 536 00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:21,640 Speaker 1: allegations that his killer was a woman, a woman who 537 00:32:21,920 --> 00:32:25,880 Speaker 1: was quote euphoric because she could now take an item 538 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 1: off her quote bucket list. That item murder straight out 539 00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,600 Speaker 1: to death. Investigator Joseph Scott, Morgan Joe Scott what happened 540 00:32:37,000 --> 00:32:40,600 Speaker 1: this set of circumstances is absolutely positively horrific. You've got 541 00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: a young man named Aaron who is suffering. They characterized 542 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: it as autism, but on the scale of autism. He 543 00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,560 Speaker 1: actually had been diagnosed with Asperger syndrome. A sweet young man, 544 00:32:51,680 --> 00:32:54,640 Speaker 1: he's described by his family this way. He was invited 545 00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,560 Speaker 1: over to the home of the lady in question and 546 00:32:58,720 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 1: told promised that he could come over and download some 547 00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:06,680 Speaker 1: computer games. And when he got there, he walked into 548 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:11,959 Speaker 1: just absolute pure hell. Uh these uh. This woman literally 549 00:33:12,000 --> 00:33:14,040 Speaker 1: in the basement of her house had a dungeon set 550 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:18,600 Speaker 1: up Nancy where she took him into the dungeon because 551 00:33:18,640 --> 00:33:20,840 Speaker 1: she had a desire, a blood lust, if you will. 552 00:33:20,920 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 1: She wanted to kill somebody, as you mentioned, check it 553 00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:25,320 Speaker 1: off of her bucket list by the time she was 554 00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:29,240 Speaker 1: twenty five years old. Took him in there, restrained him, 555 00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:33,440 Speaker 1: and then took a wire garrotte and tied it around 556 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:37,360 Speaker 1: his neck in order to choke him out. It didn't work. 557 00:33:38,000 --> 00:33:41,600 Speaker 1: The wire garrotte broke, Nancy broke, and this poor child, 558 00:33:41,760 --> 00:33:45,440 Speaker 1: this poor disabled child, is there in horror. Then she 559 00:33:45,640 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 1: pulls out the knives and she stabs him multiple multiple times, 560 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:53,959 Speaker 1: finally stabbing him in the neck and killing him right 561 00:33:54,040 --> 00:33:57,760 Speaker 1: there in her basement. She then allegedly takes him and 562 00:33:57,880 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 1: buries him in a shallow grave covered with cement and tiles. Now, 563 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:06,560 Speaker 1: from what we are told by one of her girlfriends, 564 00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,560 Speaker 1: a platonic girlfriend, that she was quote Lily. This woman, 565 00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:14,759 Speaker 1: Jemma Lily, was so quote full of herself and euphoric. Afterwards, 566 00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:19,279 Speaker 1: she bragged to a coworker about the killing and say, 567 00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:22,879 Speaker 1: that's the problem right there. That's why I always say, 568 00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:27,200 Speaker 1: Karen start psychologists joining us from Manhattan, that it's very 569 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:31,400 Speaker 1: difficult for me to ever believe a conspiracy is real. Uh. 570 00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: For instance, in the O. J. Simpson case, so many 571 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:38,280 Speaker 1: people believe the police had a conspiracy to get Simpson bs. 572 00:34:38,960 --> 00:34:41,640 Speaker 1: Not all those people cannot keep their trap shut this 573 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,959 Speaker 1: long about a conspiracy that pen five million dollar book 574 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:48,920 Speaker 1: and make a whole lot of money, do the talk 575 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:51,160 Speaker 1: show rounds, and then go go live in secret. That's 576 00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 1: what would happen. So I find it very difficult to 577 00:34:54,800 --> 00:35:00,160 Speaker 1: believe conspiracies. She's the perfect example. She couldn't wait to 578 00:35:00,239 --> 00:35:03,359 Speaker 1: get back to work and over the water cooler talk 579 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,960 Speaker 1: about murdering somebody. Karen, what what is that problem? Because 580 00:35:08,360 --> 00:35:11,840 Speaker 1: she felt so euphoric. Nancy, here's somebody who, from the 581 00:35:11,920 --> 00:35:15,320 Speaker 1: time she was a teenager was obsessed with the idea 582 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:19,080 Speaker 1: of killing and was driven. She really she wrote a 583 00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 1: book to release those instincts and way, way, way, okay, 584 00:35:24,680 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 1: book a book? Tell me about she wrote a book 585 00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 1: about what about a serial killer? Well, Joe Scott Morgan, 586 00:35:32,200 --> 00:35:34,760 Speaker 1: hold on here and start hold that thought, Joe Scott, 587 00:35:35,040 --> 00:35:37,640 Speaker 1: that's gonna be States number one exhibit. Let's just start 588 00:35:37,719 --> 00:35:40,480 Speaker 1: with the books she wrote, because I guarantee you there 589 00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: are passages in the book that directly mirror what she 590 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: did to this teen autistic boy. I guarantee yeah, I 591 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: can guarantee you it's gonna paint a deadly narrative moving forward, Nancy. 592 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,759 Speaker 1: And this is another interesting thing. She's fascinated with the 593 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:59,200 Speaker 1: hard genre, and she's fascinated so much, Nancy, that she's 594 00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: actually got a Freddy Krueger tattoo of a signature by 595 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:06,560 Speaker 1: Freddy Krueger on her body. That's how much she loved 596 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 1: horror fantasy. And wait, Alan, Alan, she has he she 597 00:36:14,480 --> 00:36:17,920 Speaker 1: has a Freddy Krueger tattoo. Yes, and she's also got 598 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,800 Speaker 1: a David Berkowitz, son of Sam tattooed the letters S 599 00:36:20,880 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 1: O S tattooed on her. Her nickname for her husband, 600 00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:28,480 Speaker 1: who who left this world in was Gaycey named after 601 00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:31,640 Speaker 1: John Wayne Gacey. She can I just gask out of 602 00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:35,000 Speaker 1: curiosity how he died. I don't think there's any suspicion there. 603 00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,160 Speaker 1: But she was fascinated with that. And and and in 604 00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:41,879 Speaker 1: the book, this is the other thing. Her stepmother says that, well, 605 00:36:42,080 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 1: she had a troubled childhood. Listen to what her dad 606 00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:47,440 Speaker 1: did after she wrote this book about son of this 607 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:49,799 Speaker 1: s O S book about the serial killer. Her dad 608 00:36:49,920 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: actually made her a mask that resembled the serial killer. 609 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,160 Speaker 1: She apparently really identified with the main character. And who 610 00:36:57,320 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: was no Haley Dean. Thank god he's here in story. 611 00:37:00,800 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: We got I got us off track. I went down 612 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:05,799 Speaker 1: the garden path. But my question was, she's talking about 613 00:37:05,880 --> 00:37:09,400 Speaker 1: the murder over the water cooler at work. What what 614 00:37:09,719 --> 00:37:15,239 Speaker 1: is that, you know, compulsion to brag about your crime. Well, 615 00:37:15,360 --> 00:37:19,400 Speaker 1: because that's part of the continued excitement. It's it's the 616 00:37:19,520 --> 00:37:23,120 Speaker 1: same as if she had, you know, taken pieces of him, 617 00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:25,879 Speaker 1: of things that belonged to him, and could keep looking 618 00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:30,000 Speaker 1: at them. She's she's obsessed with what happened because it 619 00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 1: gave her this euphoric feeling, and she just had a 620 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: blurt it out because she was she was filled with 621 00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:39,320 Speaker 1: it Nancy. It was a part of who she was. 622 00:37:39,800 --> 00:37:42,160 Speaker 1: It was so exciting. She'd been waiting for this her 623 00:37:42,160 --> 00:37:45,840 Speaker 1: whole life. She thanked her accomplice and she signed it 624 00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:49,880 Speaker 1: s os Son of sand the accomplice being another woman 625 00:37:50,000 --> 00:37:54,719 Speaker 1: that apparently helped lure the teen boy who has Asperger's 626 00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:58,640 Speaker 1: into the home. Quote. I can't rest until a fresh, 627 00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:02,360 Speaker 1: screaming victim is gushing on the floor. What about a 628 00:38:02,560 --> 00:38:05,320 Speaker 1: text message? Aland what do you know? She sent a 629 00:38:05,400 --> 00:38:08,640 Speaker 1: text message to her code defendant just hours after the murder, 630 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:11,760 Speaker 1: saying quote, I am seeing things I've never seen before 631 00:38:12,120 --> 00:38:15,880 Speaker 1: and feeling things I've never felt before. It's incredibly empowering 632 00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:18,920 Speaker 1: these images. Thank you. Well, I've gotten used for her. 633 00:38:18,960 --> 00:38:20,960 Speaker 1: She's going to feel something else she's never felt before. 634 00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 1: Behind bars, they so called bucket list killer rites in 635 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,080 Speaker 1: her sick horror novel, and she had a so called 636 00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: kill kit. What was that Alan? Her kill kit? Well, 637 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 1: I know one of the things they did. They went 638 00:38:35,760 --> 00:38:38,280 Speaker 1: to numerous trips are a hardware store, and they collected 639 00:38:38,600 --> 00:38:42,360 Speaker 1: one liters of hydrochloric acid they planned to use to 640 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:46,040 Speaker 1: dispose of the victim's body. I guess Joseph Scott Morgan 641 00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,319 Speaker 1: can tell you what hydrochloric acid does to a human 642 00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,720 Speaker 1: human body, But they didn't use it in the end. Instead, 643 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,879 Speaker 1: they just did it the old fashioned way. They dug 644 00:38:53,920 --> 00:38:57,560 Speaker 1: a hole, buried him, put concrete, and then tiled over it. 645 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,920 Speaker 1: So they went old school, all right, Juscott, what's with 646 00:39:00,920 --> 00:39:04,760 Speaker 1: the hydrochloric acid. Well, they're going to attempt to dissolve 647 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:08,440 Speaker 1: the body. And when you apply hydrochloric acid uh to 648 00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:11,960 Speaker 1: human remains, it begins to break the body down to 649 00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 1: the point where a lot of people think that it's 650 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:18,000 Speaker 1: going to be uh impossible to get the body identified. 651 00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:20,239 Speaker 1: The problem is is that most people that begin to 652 00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,120 Speaker 1: do sort of thing have no practice at it, so 653 00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:24,839 Speaker 1: they're not very good at and which you know, makes 654 00:39:24,880 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 1: a question why did they buy it in the first place, Because, 655 00:39:27,480 --> 00:39:29,759 Speaker 1: as you stated, they dug a hole in the backyard 656 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,799 Speaker 1: of the home and then poured concrete over the top 657 00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 1: of him and then sealed it off with tiles. And 658 00:39:36,640 --> 00:39:39,440 Speaker 1: just so that we remember, this young man's name was Aeron, 659 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,560 Speaker 1: his name was Aaron, and he had Asperger's and they 660 00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: just they suffered this poor kid in And you know, 661 00:39:45,600 --> 00:39:48,279 Speaker 1: I've I've been around a lot of children and over 662 00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,920 Speaker 1: my course as an educator, and sometimes these kids are 663 00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,319 Speaker 1: just they're so disaffected. A lot of people are put 664 00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:58,400 Speaker 1: off by their behavior sometime, but they're very, very sweet people. 665 00:39:58,880 --> 00:40:02,960 Speaker 1: And and this, this woman, this monster just just draws 666 00:40:03,080 --> 00:40:05,840 Speaker 1: him into her web. And I'm just I'm just broken 667 00:40:05,880 --> 00:40:09,560 Speaker 1: hearted over this thing. It's horrible, you know. I feel 668 00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: bad for any victim, Karen Stark, but for a child 669 00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,800 Speaker 1: that can't understand what's happening, or for someone like this 670 00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: that has, you know, a lesser mental capacity. And it 671 00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 1: just to think of what that teen boy suffered at 672 00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:32,880 Speaker 1: the hands of her and her girl remmate. It's just 673 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 1: it's just pure evil. Now, Karen, Um, I know you 674 00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,920 Speaker 1: disagree with me, but I swear when I read about 675 00:40:41,000 --> 00:40:44,640 Speaker 1: people like this, or have tried prosecuted people like this, 676 00:40:45,160 --> 00:40:48,480 Speaker 1: I am convinced the devil as alive and will. Now 677 00:40:48,520 --> 00:40:50,680 Speaker 1: a lot of people argue with you, there's no such thing. 678 00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:55,960 Speaker 1: But when I see people like this woman Jemma Lily, 679 00:40:56,480 --> 00:40:58,400 Speaker 1: I really don't have any doubt in my mind the 680 00:40:58,520 --> 00:41:02,160 Speaker 1: things she did. How did she come up with these evil, 681 00:41:02,360 --> 00:41:05,719 Speaker 1: horrible things she did to this boy, Nancy. She's been 682 00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,920 Speaker 1: ruminated about them since she was a teenager and she 683 00:41:09,200 --> 00:41:12,279 Speaker 1: was obsessed. Because she was obsessed with serial killers. She 684 00:41:12,520 --> 00:41:15,439 Speaker 1: read everything that she could, There's no doubt in my mind, 685 00:41:15,960 --> 00:41:20,400 Speaker 1: so that she could plan this out and get full satisfaction, 686 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:25,279 Speaker 1: that feeling of accomplishment, of murder and destruction that she 687 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,720 Speaker 1: was looking for. And I want to add that Aaron 688 00:41:29,120 --> 00:41:34,360 Speaker 1: had Asperger's which means that on the artistic spectrum, he 689 00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: was high functioning. He knew what was happening. There's no 690 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:43,760 Speaker 1: doubt in my mind that this little boy really suffered 691 00:41:43,920 --> 00:41:48,360 Speaker 1: and understood what was going on. You know, Karen, that 692 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:53,879 Speaker 1: she had created a room, a secret, locked room where 693 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:58,320 Speaker 1: they tortured and killed the boy victim. And I looked 694 00:41:58,440 --> 00:42:00,480 Speaker 1: at the room. It's got a tile lore so it 695 00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,840 Speaker 1: can easily be cleaned of blood or evidence. There is 696 00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,800 Speaker 1: a tarp hanging around all around, you know, four corners, 697 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:09,719 Speaker 1: like you know in a hospital when they pull a 698 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:13,760 Speaker 1: curtain around you. There is a cot like a gurney 699 00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,799 Speaker 1: with rollers wheels on the bottom. And then it looks 700 00:42:17,840 --> 00:42:20,239 Speaker 1: like a tool cabinet like the type you get at 701 00:42:20,880 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: um Lows or ace or home depot, you know, the 702 00:42:23,680 --> 00:42:28,320 Speaker 1: big red metal cabinet and you would pull out drawers, 703 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,720 Speaker 1: red metal drawers, and they've always got tools and nails 704 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:35,680 Speaker 1: and screws and whatever all organized on there. It looks 705 00:42:35,680 --> 00:42:38,320 Speaker 1: like one of those red tool cabinets in there. It 706 00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: looks straight out of a scene of Dexter. Remember, I 707 00:42:41,120 --> 00:42:44,440 Speaker 1: was just going to say that, Nancy. It sounds like 708 00:42:44,640 --> 00:42:47,800 Speaker 1: Dexter where he was prepared to take all of the 709 00:42:47,920 --> 00:42:50,960 Speaker 1: tarp and wrap it around the victim and had that 710 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,880 Speaker 1: cot there exactly right, That's exactly what it sounds like, 711 00:42:55,560 --> 00:42:58,520 Speaker 1: except Dexter would only kill the bad guys, not an 712 00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:02,040 Speaker 1: innocent teen boy with as burgers. Okay, that's right. Now 713 00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:05,160 Speaker 1: I'm thinking more about this novel that she would work 714 00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 1: on every single day, and I'm thinking about this little 715 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:16,359 Speaker 1: boy's family, this teen boys family, and how they feel. Now, Um, 716 00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:19,000 Speaker 1: do you think this kind of person here and start 717 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,960 Speaker 1: could be if she had been caught early on in 718 00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,759 Speaker 1: her life and turned in a different direction. Could she 719 00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:27,560 Speaker 1: have turned out to be a different kind of person 720 00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:31,480 Speaker 1: instead of like a sadistic murderer or was this basically 721 00:43:31,560 --> 00:43:33,880 Speaker 1: part of her genetic makeup and nothing could change it? 722 00:43:34,640 --> 00:43:38,320 Speaker 1: There is no telling. Nobody is able to really separate, 723 00:43:38,360 --> 00:43:41,200 Speaker 1: no matter how many times they've tried to study it, Nancy, 724 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:46,520 Speaker 1: what is actually inborn and what's due to the environment, 725 00:43:46,840 --> 00:43:49,400 Speaker 1: And so we must determine that it's both. It's a 726 00:43:49,520 --> 00:43:53,719 Speaker 1: combination of having that instinct and being raised in the 727 00:43:53,840 --> 00:43:56,320 Speaker 1: setting that brings it out. That's the best that we 728 00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:02,120 Speaker 1: know about it, Karen start, Can this woman her be rehabilitated, 729 00:44:02,160 --> 00:44:05,360 Speaker 1: because you know I don't think she can. Well, you're right, Nancy, 730 00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,680 Speaker 1: absolutely not. You that desire to kill that eu fourier 731 00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:12,080 Speaker 1: that she wound up getting that will just make her 732 00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,680 Speaker 1: want to do it again more and more, so it 733 00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:18,280 Speaker 1: will never go away. You cannot rehabilitate this kind of person. 734 00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,520 Speaker 1: Another thing Joseph's got, Morgan. I'm looking at the secret 735 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,920 Speaker 1: surveillance video of her pushing a car. It looks like 736 00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,800 Speaker 1: a store like Walmart. Um, I don't think it is 737 00:44:28,880 --> 00:44:34,480 Speaker 1: a Walmart. And it's totally full of hydrochloric acid. Why 738 00:44:34,520 --> 00:44:39,000 Speaker 1: would people normally buy hydrochloric acid? Well, you use it 739 00:44:39,080 --> 00:44:42,640 Speaker 1: to to essentially clean with many times you can clean things. 740 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,040 Speaker 1: I'll give you an example. It's it's so it's so 741 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,800 Speaker 1: effective and so caustic that you can if you have, 742 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:52,040 Speaker 1: for instance, like all the stains on on an area, 743 00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:54,840 Speaker 1: say on a concrete surface, you can apply to that 744 00:44:55,160 --> 00:44:59,520 Speaker 1: to actually remove those stains from the surfaces. Uh, it's 745 00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:03,120 Speaker 1: very costant. It will just strip away all those layers. 746 00:45:03,200 --> 00:45:06,239 Speaker 1: So you can only imagine, um, what it can do 747 00:45:06,440 --> 00:45:10,040 Speaker 1: to soft, tender human flesh. It will just eat it away, eroded. 748 00:45:10,440 --> 00:45:12,799 Speaker 1: And if you this is this is a chilly thing 749 00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:15,120 Speaker 1: to me, Nancy, what if she wasn't going to use 750 00:45:15,160 --> 00:45:17,400 Speaker 1: it to dispose of it with? What if she was 751 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:20,919 Speaker 1: going to use this as a methodology of torture which 752 00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,160 Speaker 1: is not beyond the pale because it's been done before. 753 00:45:23,360 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 1: There's things that are referred to as acid drips which 754 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:29,840 Speaker 1: people have used over years and years extracting information and 755 00:45:29,960 --> 00:45:36,080 Speaker 1: be me another thing in hydrochloric acid, the old muriatic acid, 756 00:45:36,280 --> 00:45:39,080 Speaker 1: which I've written about in a couple of my Healing 757 00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:43,000 Speaker 1: Dean Murder mysteries. Muriatic means pretending to brine or salt, 758 00:45:43,560 --> 00:45:47,560 Speaker 1: hence myriadic means hydrochloric, and the name is sometimes used. 759 00:45:47,600 --> 00:45:50,360 Speaker 1: I've always called it muriatic acid, but it's now called 760 00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:55,520 Speaker 1: hydrochloric acid. And um, there was a French chemist, Joseph 761 00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,000 Speaker 1: Louise Gay Lussac, and I had to learn all about 762 00:45:59,080 --> 00:46:01,839 Speaker 1: that to write one of my books. So the thing 763 00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:06,600 Speaker 1: about myriadic acid, and I believe I used the black 764 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:09,640 Speaker 1: Swan myriadic acid in my book, if I recall, is 765 00:46:09,719 --> 00:46:14,520 Speaker 1: that it unlike detergent or bleach or a washing machine 766 00:46:14,760 --> 00:46:19,440 Speaker 1: or a dishwasher, it can in fact destroy DNA and 767 00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:22,640 Speaker 1: that's hard to do. Joe Scott Morgan. Yeah, it is 768 00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:25,480 Speaker 1: to go down to the very root of our existence 769 00:46:25,560 --> 00:46:28,920 Speaker 1: to get into uh well, not just the soft, tender flesh, 770 00:46:29,040 --> 00:46:32,000 Speaker 1: but also it can literally dissolve bone after a period 771 00:46:32,080 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 1: of time, and it's not a very long time that 772 00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:38,960 Speaker 1: would take to do that. Now, in her jurisdiction, Alan, 773 00:46:39,120 --> 00:46:42,279 Speaker 1: I don't believe they've got the death penalty. So bottom line, 774 00:46:42,960 --> 00:46:46,040 Speaker 1: she'll probably do get a life sentence and she'll probably 775 00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,520 Speaker 1: do twenty years of it, and some judge somewhere we'll 776 00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,919 Speaker 1: let her go and she'll be back out on the street. 777 00:46:50,920 --> 00:46:53,040 Speaker 1: I'll tell you one thing, I'm not inviting her home 778 00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:56,799 Speaker 1: to dinner. That's why I don't like parole, because they 779 00:46:56,880 --> 00:46:59,160 Speaker 1: get out, they get a new name, and they start 780 00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:03,280 Speaker 1: all over again. It's not some twisted desire to hurt someone. 781 00:47:03,480 --> 00:47:06,960 Speaker 1: Or seek revenge or the joy of knowing someone's behind bars. 782 00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:11,000 Speaker 1: It's to save an innocent person fifteen years from now 783 00:47:11,040 --> 00:47:15,000 Speaker 1: when they get out and are wandering around and come 784 00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:18,719 Speaker 1: upon an innocent person just like this boy. I wish 785 00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:23,480 Speaker 1: you could see a picture of him. This kid um 786 00:47:23,800 --> 00:47:27,759 Speaker 1: just big blue eyes. He looks like he wouldn't hurt 787 00:47:27,760 --> 00:47:31,520 Speaker 1: a flee. I don't know how she actually decided on him, 788 00:47:32,160 --> 00:47:35,239 Speaker 1: but his body. Yeah, this body ended up in a 789 00:47:35,320 --> 00:47:40,200 Speaker 1: shallow grave covered with cement. This boy, the teen boy 790 00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:45,439 Speaker 1: family still in mourning. Aaron Patients, God rest his soul 791 00:47:45,760 --> 00:47:50,440 Speaker 1: and made these two wrought in health. Nancy Grace seeking justice, 792 00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:52,640 Speaker 1: signing off, goodbye friend,