WEBVTT - Possession (1981) with Alicia Berbenick

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<v Speaker 1>On The Bechdelcast.

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<v Speaker 2>The questions asked if movies have women in them, are

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<v Speaker 2>all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they

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<v Speaker 2>have individualism? The patriarchy? Zeff and best start changing it

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<v Speaker 2>with the Bechdel Cast. Hi, everybody, Jamie popping in at

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<v Speaker 2>the top of the episode to ask for your humble

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<v Speaker 2>vote in the Signal Awards. The Signal Awards are a

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<v Speaker 2>podcast industry award and a show a produce. We The

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<v Speaker 2>Unhoused has been nominated in the People's Choice category for

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<v Speaker 2>public service and activism. If you haven't listened to the

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<v Speaker 2>show before, we've talked about it on the Bechdel Cast

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<v Speaker 2>many times. But it is a show created and hosted

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<v Speaker 2>by the wonderful Theo Henderson that is about issues that

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<v Speaker 2>affect the unhoused, told by unhoused people themselves. It is

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<v Speaker 2>a wonderful show. I am so proud of it. There

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<v Speaker 2>are some stiff competition, and we would appreciate your vote.

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<v Speaker 2>It is literally two clicks. There is a link in

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<v Speaker 2>the description of the episode. You are listening right now,

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<v Speaker 2>so pause the episode, vote and enjoy the show.

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<v Speaker 3>Cast. Hey, Jamie, want to come over and meet my tentacle?

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<v Speaker 3>Boyfriend who lives in my bed.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, as long as it's questionably not real and created

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<v Speaker 2>from all of the trauma you've accumulated from throughout your life.

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<v Speaker 2>Well duh, okay, good, that's most I mean, that's most

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<v Speaker 2>movie monsters. Right. You're just getting fucked to death by

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<v Speaker 2>your own trauma. That's the experience of life. So why

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<v Speaker 2>not have the guy who made ET create the monster

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<v Speaker 2>that fucks you to death?

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<v Speaker 3>Oh yeah, I didn't realize it was the same person.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, a legend, Carlo Rambaldi. He also, I believe he

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't in charge of it because hr Geiger Gieger. Someone help.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's Geiger, hr Geiger. But he's like an

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<v Speaker 2>hr Geiger guy Ger. And he also so made the

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<v Speaker 2>xenomorph an alien. Yeah, yeah, so he's Carla Embaldi's all

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<v Speaker 2>about a wet, little trauma monster, which is how I

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<v Speaker 2>describe ET kind of. I would love to get fucked

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<v Speaker 2>by my own trauma because then at least you know

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<v Speaker 2>you're getting something out of it.

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<v Speaker 3>Anyways, Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.

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<v Speaker 2>Well that was a great introduction.

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<v Speaker 3>We nailed it. This is the Bechdel Cast, our show

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<v Speaker 3>where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens. I'm

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<v Speaker 3>Caitlyn Deronte. I don't think I introduced myself.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, I'm Jamie Loftus. I'm the one that wanted to

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<v Speaker 2>get fucked by the monster. I can't speak for you, Caitlyn.

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<v Speaker 2>I can only speak for myself.

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<v Speaker 3>You know. Let me get back to you on that.

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<v Speaker 2>Okay. I went to the Academy Museum recently and I

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<v Speaker 2>saw the fish from the Shape of Water again and

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, that's not a trauma monster. That's that's

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<v Speaker 2>a fantasy monster. Fu.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh you also want to be fucked by?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and it really is pulled into sharp focus when

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<v Speaker 2>you see that he built to scale scale. But that

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<v Speaker 2>wasn't what I was trying to do.

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<v Speaker 3>Wow.

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<v Speaker 2>But you know what I mean. You know what I mean.

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<v Speaker 2>I love it when you get punny. I know, I

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<v Speaker 2>never see it coming. I think it's whenever I'm running

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<v Speaker 2>on very little sleep.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, in any case, it's the Possession episode. Guys. We're

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<v Speaker 2>so excited the time has come to cover the movie

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<v Speaker 2>Possession nineteen eighty one and we have an incredible guest

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<v Speaker 2>in the house. Oh wait, we should say what the

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<v Speaker 2>show is.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I mean intersectional feminist film analysis where we use

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<v Speaker 3>the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point. But

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<v Speaker 3>what's that, I wonder.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it actually is relevant to today's discussion, so we'll tell you.

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<v Speaker 2>The Bechtel test is a media metric creative by our

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<v Speaker 2>dear friend, friend of the show, Alison Bechdel, originally as

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<v Speaker 2>a joke in her comic that went from the eighties

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<v Speaker 2>into the two thousands called Mikes to Watch Out For

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<v Speaker 2>about how there is very little queer representation in movies,

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<v Speaker 2>specifically with women, but has since become a more mainstream metric.

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<v Speaker 2>Lots of versions of this test. The one we use

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<v Speaker 2>requires that there are two characters of a marginalized gender

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<v Speaker 2>with names who speak to each other about something other

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<v Speaker 2>than a man. This, I mean, I guess that a

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<v Speaker 2>lot of you know this is just a jumping off

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<v Speaker 2>point for discussion, But I was actually thinking about the test,

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<v Speaker 2>which is rare these days on the show, we're mostly

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<v Speaker 2>thinking about other things. But I was like, we don't

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<v Speaker 2>know how the trauma octopus identifies, you know, And is

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<v Speaker 2>that not a meaningful interaction? I certainly think.

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<v Speaker 3>So, I would say very meaningful. Now, Anna does refer

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<v Speaker 3>to her tentacle lover using him pronouns.

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<v Speaker 2>Oh, but well, okay, unless we're thinking that this, we're okay,

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<v Speaker 2>already overthinking it. Two minutes in us we're thinking that

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<v Speaker 2>Anna's misgendering her own trauma monster, which I certainly hope

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<v Speaker 2>she wouldn't. I think so highly of her. She's an icon,

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<v Speaker 2>she's a legend, she's an icon, she's the moment. She've

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<v Speaker 2>got her milk all over the place. I okay, let's okay,

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<v Speaker 2>we have an incredible guest. That's what the Bechdel test is,

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<v Speaker 2>whether you think it passes or not, sort of hinges

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<v Speaker 2>on how you gender this tentacle monster, because otherwise it's

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<v Speaker 2>a pretty solitary movie with a lot of men.

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<v Speaker 3>Exactly. But yes, let's get our guest in here. She

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<v Speaker 3>is a writer, illustrator, and editor specializing in horror film

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<v Speaker 3>inspired imagery. She's the creator of the Zene resident eesel

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<v Speaker 3>It's Alicia Burbank. Hello and welcome.

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<v Speaker 1>Hi. Thank you so much for having me on. I

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<v Speaker 1>love this show.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh my gosh, we love your work.

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<v Speaker 2>We really do. Thank you, and we're so excited that

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<v Speaker 2>you brought us. You brought us a little juicy bit

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<v Speaker 2>of gristle to talk about today. Yeah, what is your

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<v Speaker 2>history with Possession?

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<v Speaker 1>Oh, I was. I think a lot of us might

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<v Speaker 1>come to Possession all at the same time in our

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<v Speaker 1>lives when we're having like a rough time, when we're

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<v Speaker 1>talking about, you know, film with you know, someone we

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<v Speaker 1>look up to, or you know, like someone who's really

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<v Speaker 1>deep into the arts or whatever. This was circa twenty fifteen, twenty,

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<v Speaker 1>you know, just hinging on twenty sixteen when I was

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<v Speaker 1>just like, Oh, I'm so bored with everything I'm doing.

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<v Speaker 1>I want to get back into watching horror movies. What

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<v Speaker 1>do you recommend? And someone I just kind of peripherally

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<v Speaker 1>knew was like, well, there are all these new films

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<v Speaker 1>that are coming out that are just like newly available

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<v Speaker 1>to American audiences. Have you ever seen Possession? I was

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<v Speaker 1>like no, And he gave me a YouTube link, just

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<v Speaker 1>like go check it out. And this was yeah around

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<v Speaker 1>that time when I was just like glued to my

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<v Speaker 1>YouTube like watching this repeatedly, and it really changed my life,

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<v Speaker 1>this movie like Wow. And then after that I went

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<v Speaker 1>on to really study a lot more horror films. I

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<v Speaker 1>was a part of, very very briefly. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>part of a horror film podcast with two other dudes

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<v Speaker 1>and then left that one for probably obvious reasons during

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<v Speaker 1>twenty sixteen. Yeah, so it was like, I have a

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<v Speaker 1>past with this film. It really helped me find my voice,

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<v Speaker 1>so to speak.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, Jamie, how about you? What's your relationship with it?

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<v Speaker 2>Also very particular. I saw this movie for the first

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<v Speaker 2>time a couple of years ago when I was going

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<v Speaker 2>through a terrible breakup with a guy that sort of

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<v Speaker 2>looks like a young Sam Neil if you tilt your head.

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<v Speaker 2>So it was very cathartic. I think I had heard

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<v Speaker 2>of this movie before because I think that the subway

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<v Speaker 2>scene is something that it's like one of those clips

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<v Speaker 2>that goes viral every six months, and so I had

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<v Speaker 2>seen that scene before and I'm like, I like this,

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<v Speaker 2>but I never followed up on like what it is.

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<v Speaker 2>And then Yeah, it was when I was seeking a

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<v Speaker 2>cathartic breakup movie to watch a couple of years ago

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<v Speaker 2>that I was like, Oh, it's it's time. It's time

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<v Speaker 2>to watch Possession. And I mean, I don't wish a

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<v Speaker 2>horrible breakup on anyone, but if you've got to go

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<v Speaker 2>through one, this movie is it's And I've seen this

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<v Speaker 2>opinion repeated because it is such a brutal movie. But

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<v Speaker 2>I found it so comforting at the time that I

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<v Speaker 2>saw it, because it's just like, especially if you're watching

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<v Speaker 2>this movie in a way that is just washing over you,

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<v Speaker 2>which is not how we analyze movies here, but I

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<v Speaker 2>it was. It just felt awesome to see like such

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<v Speaker 2>intense and irrational pain, just like fully committed in the

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<v Speaker 2>performances and all of the creative choices. I don't know,

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<v Speaker 2>it felt weirdly validating for how out of my mind

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<v Speaker 2>I felt while having to you know, like you have

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<v Speaker 2>to continue to act like a person, and these people

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<v Speaker 2>are not acting like people at all. I just I

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<v Speaker 2>found it to be a very very cathartic breakup movie.

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<v Speaker 2>So I think, I mean it was during a difficult time,

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<v Speaker 2>which is like, bik, how a lot of people come

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<v Speaker 2>to this movie, like you're saying, But I found it

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<v Speaker 2>very soothing, and so I think I watched it like

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<v Speaker 2>I think I watched it twice during like the height

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<v Speaker 2>of that breakup, and then I've returned to it twice

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<v Speaker 2>since in the years that came after, And so this

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<v Speaker 2>was my first time watching it critically and also like

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<v Speaker 2>learning more about the filmmaking process, and I mean you

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<v Speaker 2>can tell like where this movie takes place. It takes

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<v Speaker 2>place in Berlin in the early eighties, so it's like

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<v Speaker 2>I didn't know anything about the director at all, but

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<v Speaker 2>specifically how political this movie is, because I was so

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<v Speaker 2>distracted by the Tentacle Porn, but not this time. This

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<v Speaker 2>time I was ready for the Tentacle porn and ready

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<v Speaker 2>to think about the cold and feminism and.

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<v Speaker 3>A director's who abuse power.

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<v Speaker 2>So there's so much to talk about, but just yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>strictly on my first watch. It also was like the

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<v Speaker 2>exact right time the movie found me when I needed it. Caitlyn,

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<v Speaker 2>what's your history with this movie?

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<v Speaker 3>I had never seen it until prepping for this episode,

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<v Speaker 3>nor was it really on my radar. As I've said

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<v Speaker 3>in the past, I'm like not the biggest horror person.

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<v Speaker 3>It's sort of the genre that I am least acquainted with.

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<v Speaker 3>Over the years, I've seen more and more so I've

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<v Speaker 3>seen like a decent handful of the classics at this point,

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<v Speaker 3>but this one just like wasn't even on my radar.

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<v Speaker 2>It's still pretty culty. I think, yeah, that must be.

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<v Speaker 3>It had no idea that Sam Neil was in it,

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<v Speaker 3>doctor Alan Grant himself.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and I will have to say I don't like

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<v Speaker 2>the character of doctor Alan Grant. I just like so

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<v Speaker 2>it never occurred to me to think of Sam Neil

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<v Speaker 2>as attractive. But I mean, obviously his character is terrible,

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<v Speaker 2>but he is hot in this movie to me. And

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<v Speaker 2>I was like surprised because I just found I hate

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<v Speaker 2>I think I hate the character of doctor Alan Grant.

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<v Speaker 2>That's like, because why is your define You're defining characteristic

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<v Speaker 2>as you hate children and at the end of the

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<v Speaker 2>movie you kind of don't. I hate that arc. I

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<v Speaker 2>hate that arc. But what about Mark who hates his

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<v Speaker 2>kid the whole time?

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, but but also kind of likes him more

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<v Speaker 3>at the end.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't think so, I see, I I have a

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<v Speaker 2>I have some hot takes on on these parents. They're

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<v Speaker 2>bad they I mean, they're bad parents. Wow, I guess

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<v Speaker 2>that's not a hot take. They're bad parents here first

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<v Speaker 2>they are? Yeah, this is like I also like watching

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<v Speaker 2>it this time. I was like, damn, if this is

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<v Speaker 2>what divorce feels like, I'm getting unengaged, not worth it.

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<v Speaker 3>Uh. Yeah, it was such a wild watch. I had

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<v Speaker 3>no idea. I thought it would be more demonic possession

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<v Speaker 3>based on the title alone, and there's definitely some supernatural

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<v Speaker 3>stuff happening. There's a creature. There's sort of a suggestion

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<v Speaker 3>that it's kind of religious maybe, but not really not

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<v Speaker 3>in the way that like the Exorcist, store movies like

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<v Speaker 3>that deal with demonic possession.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's like completely all over the place. And I'm like,

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<v Speaker 2>I was relieved when I was like doing research for

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<v Speaker 2>this that it doesn't seem like there is any definitive

0:12:32.840 --> 0:12:35.680
<v Speaker 2>read of this movie because it's just like it's just

0:12:35.800 --> 0:12:38.920
<v Speaker 2>throwing shit out there and like you sort of latch

0:12:39.000 --> 0:12:39.760
<v Speaker 2>on to it's.

0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:42.520
<v Speaker 3>Throwing tentacles at the wall and seeing what sticks. And

0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:45.800
<v Speaker 3>I just don't quite know. I was like, am I

0:12:45.920 --> 0:12:49.360
<v Speaker 3>not like I'm not getting the metaphor.

0:12:49.000 --> 0:12:51.880
<v Speaker 2>Really, I don't think you're supposed to, that's the thing.

0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:53.880
<v Speaker 3>It's like, yeah, okay, okay, good. Yeah.

0:12:53.880 --> 0:12:55.760
<v Speaker 2>Because as I was watching it this time, I'm like,

0:12:56.040 --> 0:12:58.560
<v Speaker 2>I don't know if this movie is like necessarily quote

0:12:58.640 --> 0:13:03.280
<v Speaker 2>unquote good by ordinary metrics, but I know how it

0:13:03.320 --> 0:13:05.959
<v Speaker 2>makes me feel, and it makes me feel like punching

0:13:06.000 --> 0:13:06.840
<v Speaker 2>a wall.

0:13:06.679 --> 0:13:07.679
<v Speaker 3>You know. Yeah.

0:13:07.760 --> 0:13:10.240
<v Speaker 1>I think a lot of people do kind of correlate

0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.160
<v Speaker 1>his work with Lynch or you know, someone where you

0:13:13.200 --> 0:13:15.680
<v Speaker 1>are looking more at symbols and how things make you

0:13:15.720 --> 0:13:19.520
<v Speaker 1>feel and you know, like metaphysical properties, and I don't know,

0:13:19.679 --> 0:13:21.640
<v Speaker 1>meditate on it a bit and maybe you'll get something

0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.440
<v Speaker 1>that contributes to your life, you know. And I even

0:13:24.480 --> 0:13:27.480
<v Speaker 1>feel like maybe that's what Zulaski was thinking when he

0:13:27.520 --> 0:13:29.520
<v Speaker 1>was making it, yeah.

0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:32.640
<v Speaker 3>Right, and making it like post divorce, and he was

0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:35.719
<v Speaker 3>like really distraught about a divorce he had gone through.

0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:38.320
<v Speaker 2>And he was like sort of an expatriate, like he

0:13:38.480 --> 0:13:42.760
<v Speaker 2>was like a strange from it from Poland. And I

0:13:42.840 --> 0:13:44.880
<v Speaker 2>just I didn't realize like that. I knew that this

0:13:45.040 --> 0:13:48.760
<v Speaker 2>was a divorce movie, because I mean, it stands to reason,

0:13:49.679 --> 0:13:52.280
<v Speaker 2>but yeah, I didn't realize how we'll talk about that

0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:55.800
<v Speaker 2>in the discussion. But like how he had been basically

0:13:55.960 --> 0:14:02.400
<v Speaker 2>like booted from the Polish film industry because of his politics. Scary,

0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:06.840
<v Speaker 2>probably a sign of things to come. Instructive filmmakers take note, Yeah,

0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:09.320
<v Speaker 2>you can still make possession even when you get kicked

0:14:09.320 --> 0:14:10.160
<v Speaker 2>out of your country.

0:14:12.160 --> 0:14:14.280
<v Speaker 3>Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll come

0:14:14.320 --> 0:14:28.320
<v Speaker 3>back for the recap. Yeah, all right, So here's the recap.

0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:35.040
<v Speaker 3>We'll place a content warning for intimate partner abuse and

0:14:35.480 --> 0:14:41.920
<v Speaker 3>suicide and goo. If you're disturbed by a lot of goo,

0:14:42.440 --> 0:14:44.640
<v Speaker 3>because there's a lot of that in the movie.

0:14:44.640 --> 0:14:46.840
<v Speaker 2>You could probably still watch the first half. If you're

0:14:46.840 --> 0:14:50.160
<v Speaker 2>not into goo, you get surprisingly far into the movie

0:14:50.400 --> 0:14:55.320
<v Speaker 2>without goo. Yeah, so don't be totally put off.

0:14:55.800 --> 0:14:59.480
<v Speaker 3>Okay, So we are in West Berlin in the early eighties.

0:15:00.640 --> 0:15:05.040
<v Speaker 3>A man named Mark played by Sam Neil reunites with

0:15:05.480 --> 0:15:10.920
<v Speaker 3>his wife Anna played by Isabelle A Johnny and their

0:15:11.000 --> 0:15:14.440
<v Speaker 3>young son Bob. And it's really weird to me to

0:15:14.480 --> 0:15:17.600
<v Speaker 3>see a little boy, like a five year old boy

0:15:17.680 --> 0:15:18.200
<v Speaker 3>named Bob.

0:15:19.360 --> 0:15:22.000
<v Speaker 2>I was, yeah, already, I was like, these parrots are

0:15:22.040 --> 0:15:24.560
<v Speaker 2>weird to name your I was like, was that a

0:15:24.600 --> 0:15:26.400
<v Speaker 2>thing in the eighties? I don't think so.

0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:29.000
<v Speaker 3>I feel like it would have been Bobby, Yeah.

0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.800
<v Speaker 2>Right right, I don't know. Yeah, it's like meeting a

0:15:31.800 --> 0:15:35.600
<v Speaker 2>baby named Linda. You're just like, what, this is a

0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:37.520
<v Speaker 2>grown up name. This isn't for babies.

0:15:38.000 --> 0:15:44.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Anyway, So Mark returns home. He's an international spy.

0:15:44.680 --> 0:15:50.120
<v Speaker 3>He was away doing like Cold war espionage stuff.

0:15:51.040 --> 0:15:54.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, what did every I sort of like, because it's

0:15:54.480 --> 0:15:56.960
<v Speaker 2>so easy to forget that he's a spy because not

0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:01.040
<v Speaker 2>only does he quit his job immediately, he's he's doing

0:16:01.120 --> 0:16:04.280
<v Speaker 2>quote unquote spy work when he's stalking his own wife.

0:16:04.600 --> 0:16:08.560
<v Speaker 2>But he's so bad at it and every time I like,

0:16:08.640 --> 0:16:11.160
<v Speaker 2>it's one of like the dream like things. I'm assuming

0:16:11.280 --> 0:16:12.640
<v Speaker 2>is intended, but who knows.

0:16:13.160 --> 0:16:13.280
<v Speaker 3>Uh.

0:16:13.280 --> 0:16:16.000
<v Speaker 2>It's like every time someone from his work comes up

0:16:16.040 --> 0:16:18.400
<v Speaker 2>to him, they're like, you're the best buy in the world,

0:16:18.480 --> 0:16:20.840
<v Speaker 2>and it's like, but we're watching him do such shoddy

0:16:20.920 --> 0:16:22.720
<v Speaker 2>work that you're like, no, he's not.

0:16:23.240 --> 0:16:23.480
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:26.640
<v Speaker 2>Is that what it's like to be a man where

0:16:26.640 --> 0:16:28.960
<v Speaker 2>you're just being told you're amazing all the time, and

0:16:29.040 --> 0:16:30.720
<v Speaker 2>meanwhile you have no fucking clue what you're doing.

0:16:30.760 --> 0:16:34.479
<v Speaker 1>I don't know exactly, I think so a full disclosure.

0:16:34.520 --> 0:16:37.720
<v Speaker 1>I did read a little book on this called Possession

0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:40.320
<v Speaker 1>by Alison Taylor. It's like a part of this Devil's

0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.920
<v Speaker 1>Advocate series. It's almost like thirty three and a third

0:16:42.960 --> 0:16:45.480
<v Speaker 1>but for horror aficionados.

0:16:44.800 --> 0:16:45.880
<v Speaker 2>Oh that's so cool.

0:16:46.120 --> 0:16:48.640
<v Speaker 1>I know. I didn't. I just discovered it, but yeah,

0:16:48.680 --> 0:16:50.080
<v Speaker 1>they're out of England.

0:16:50.680 --> 0:16:51.960
<v Speaker 3>You can find them online.

0:16:52.400 --> 0:16:54.160
<v Speaker 1>But in those books, she did a little bit of

0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.720
<v Speaker 1>research and found that it was more like this whole

0:16:56.840 --> 0:16:59.440
<v Speaker 1>espionage thing is supposed to be a joke. It's supposed

0:16:59.480 --> 0:17:03.320
<v Speaker 1>to be making fun of what you see in movies

0:17:03.480 --> 0:17:06.200
<v Speaker 1>and like kind of getting meta about it, like does

0:17:06.200 --> 0:17:09.800
<v Speaker 1>this man where you know pink socks. It's like, it's

0:17:09.800 --> 0:17:13.240
<v Speaker 1>supposed to be ridiculous. It's supposed to be silly and

0:17:13.280 --> 0:17:15.960
<v Speaker 1>a little bit of like like Charlie Chaplin esque when

0:17:16.040 --> 0:17:20.439
<v Speaker 1>the spies are like trying to Yeah, he's poking fun

0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:23.920
<v Speaker 1>at this whole idea that we're like spying on each other.

0:17:24.040 --> 0:17:28.520
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, okay that makes sense. Yeah wait, sorry, what

0:17:28.560 --> 0:17:29.600
<v Speaker 2>was the name of that book again?

0:17:30.240 --> 0:17:33.719
<v Speaker 1>It's just Possession, but it's called, like the whole series

0:17:33.800 --> 0:17:35.560
<v Speaker 1>is called Devil's Advocates.

0:17:35.760 --> 0:17:36.560
<v Speaker 3>Okay, cool.

0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:40.280
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so they all have this like black background with

0:17:40.400 --> 0:17:42.919
<v Speaker 1>the and then it's still from the film and they're tiny.

0:17:42.960 --> 0:17:45.040
<v Speaker 1>They're like, like I said, like the thirty three and

0:17:45.080 --> 0:17:47.040
<v Speaker 1>a third series that rocks.

0:17:47.080 --> 0:17:52.880
<v Speaker 3>Very cool. We'll link those in the description of the episode. Yeah.

0:17:52.920 --> 0:17:56.600
<v Speaker 3>So yeah, that's Mark. He's a bad spy and he

0:17:57.200 --> 0:18:01.640
<v Speaker 3>and Anna are having marital troubles. She wants to split up,

0:18:01.680 --> 0:18:04.800
<v Speaker 3>but she can't really say why. She doesn't really know

0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.800
<v Speaker 3>why she's feeling the way she is, though, she insists

0:18:08.840 --> 0:18:12.000
<v Speaker 3>that she has not been cheating on Mark, and.

0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:15.720
<v Speaker 2>Mark immediately proves that this is a good decision she's

0:18:15.760 --> 0:18:22.280
<v Speaker 2>made because he responds emotionally and physically abusive instantly, and

0:18:22.320 --> 0:18:25.040
<v Speaker 2>so you're like, well, if there is any doubt about

0:18:25.200 --> 0:18:27.320
<v Speaker 2>whether this is a good person to be with, there

0:18:27.320 --> 0:18:28.960
<v Speaker 2>it is. And yeah, right.

0:18:30.080 --> 0:18:34.760
<v Speaker 3>Then Mark goes to a meeting with his bosses and

0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:39.600
<v Speaker 3>he quits his job, citing family as the reason. I

0:18:39.600 --> 0:18:42.800
<v Speaker 3>guess he's trying to repair his marriage and leave being

0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:46.520
<v Speaker 3>a spy behind. But Anna isn't there when he returns

0:18:46.520 --> 0:18:50.040
<v Speaker 3>home to their apartment, but she does call and confirm

0:18:50.080 --> 0:18:53.720
<v Speaker 3>his suspicions that she is seeing someone else, a man

0:18:53.800 --> 0:18:57.880
<v Speaker 3>named Heinrich, and that he gives her more sexual pleasure

0:18:58.119 --> 0:19:02.000
<v Speaker 3>than Mark ever did. And he's like, oh okay.

0:19:02.800 --> 0:19:05.320
<v Speaker 2>And then you meet Heinrich and you're like, damn, I

0:19:05.359 --> 0:19:09.240
<v Speaker 2>would I would lose it as well if you're like,

0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:13.440
<v Speaker 2>this is the guy, no, no, no, I If I'm Mark,

0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:15.199
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, this is the guy? You know?

0:19:15.440 --> 0:19:19.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, exactly for sure. So then Anna and Mark meet

0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:23.920
<v Speaker 3>up at a cafe to discuss their separation. Anna wants

0:19:23.960 --> 0:19:28.080
<v Speaker 3>to keep their apartment Mark does not want to see

0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:31.960
<v Speaker 3>their little son Bob for fear of like fucking him

0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:33.120
<v Speaker 3>up emotionally.

0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:36.520
<v Speaker 2>This is where I feel I wonder like if this

0:19:36.560 --> 0:19:41.040
<v Speaker 2>is where the audience is supposed to lose any potential,

0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:46.199
<v Speaker 2>Like I mean, ideally, when he is physically abusive to

0:19:46.280 --> 0:19:49.399
<v Speaker 2>his wife, that is the moment where you are like,

0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.919
<v Speaker 2>fuck this guy forever. But I, you know, made by

0:19:52.920 --> 0:19:55.040
<v Speaker 2>a man in the eighties, I'm not so sure. I

0:19:55.040 --> 0:19:58.760
<v Speaker 2>feel like the moment where you are supposed to lose him,

0:19:58.800 --> 0:20:01.960
<v Speaker 2>even in the early eighties, is when he's like so

0:20:02.200 --> 0:20:04.080
<v Speaker 2>quick to be like, well, I don't want to see

0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:07.000
<v Speaker 2>my son anymore to like prove a point, which again

0:20:07.080 --> 0:20:09.240
<v Speaker 2>is like something that kind of just goes away eventually.

0:20:09.400 --> 0:20:14.800
<v Speaker 2>But I thought it was very whatever telling that he yeah,

0:20:14.840 --> 0:20:17.800
<v Speaker 2>he's very he's a bad parent. He was so quick

0:20:17.840 --> 0:20:20.760
<v Speaker 2>to be like, okay, well if it proves my point,

0:20:20.800 --> 0:20:24.960
<v Speaker 2>fuck my small son that we named Bob, Like, yeah,

0:20:25.080 --> 0:20:27.639
<v Speaker 2>he's already having a hard enough time. His name's Bob.

0:20:28.000 --> 0:20:29.639
<v Speaker 2>He's seven.

0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:33.639
<v Speaker 3>If that I've thought he was like four or five little,

0:20:33.920 --> 0:20:38.120
<v Speaker 3>but yeah, he is ready to abandon his son forever.

0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:42.800
<v Speaker 3>And Anna is appalled at this, and things become violent

0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:48.120
<v Speaker 3>and he chases after her. Cut to Mark on a bender.

0:20:48.359 --> 0:20:53.520
<v Speaker 3>He's drinking heavily, he's filthy, he's mentally and physically unwell.

0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:55.160
<v Speaker 2>It's been three weeks.

0:20:56.040 --> 0:20:58.560
<v Speaker 3>Then he kind of gets his act together, not really

0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:01.919
<v Speaker 3>but enough to like return turned to the apartment and

0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:06.000
<v Speaker 3>little Bob is there, all messy and sticky because Anna

0:21:06.359 --> 0:21:10.440
<v Speaker 3>has left him there alone. Not sure for how long,

0:21:10.520 --> 0:21:13.720
<v Speaker 3>maybe a few hours, but Mark gets him cleaned up,

0:21:14.200 --> 0:21:19.840
<v Speaker 3>and Anna eventually does return, and Mark, who is being

0:21:20.040 --> 0:21:28.760
<v Speaker 3>extremely obsessive and possessive, maybe he feels possession over Anna.

0:21:28.920 --> 0:21:31.399
<v Speaker 3>He's like, I can't live without you. We need to

0:21:31.400 --> 0:21:34.560
<v Speaker 3>be together as a family. You have to call Heinrich

0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:36.359
<v Speaker 3>and tell him it's over. God.

0:21:36.640 --> 0:21:41.000
<v Speaker 2>Mark is just like ooh ooh, I hate him so much.

0:21:41.119 --> 0:21:45.960
<v Speaker 2>It's so satisfying, Like the the sam Neil performance, I

0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:48.320
<v Speaker 2>feel like it's all so good. I didn't realize that

0:21:48.400 --> 0:21:50.680
<v Speaker 2>I like learned this in the research process that they're

0:21:51.119 --> 0:21:53.760
<v Speaker 2>they're doing a very specific style of polish acting. That

0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:57.159
<v Speaker 2>is like turning everything up to a fifteen. That was

0:21:57.560 --> 0:21:59.760
<v Speaker 2>at the request of the director, which is why you

0:21:59.760 --> 0:22:03.280
<v Speaker 2>don't really see any other Sam Neil performances remotely like this,

0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:06.720
<v Speaker 2>but like they're pulling from a very specific playbook. But

0:22:06.920 --> 0:22:11.320
<v Speaker 2>just how like he quits his job and then refuse it, Like,

0:22:11.359 --> 0:22:15.119
<v Speaker 2>at no point is this man ever going to reflect.

0:22:16.320 --> 0:22:19.679
<v Speaker 2>It's just like an act of yeah, like aggression toward

0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:25.040
<v Speaker 2>getting what he wants. And yeah, he deserves to die.

0:22:25.440 --> 0:22:28.920
<v Speaker 3>Does she know she did nothing wrong? Maybe?

0:22:29.480 --> 0:22:33.960
<v Speaker 2>And Bob, you know he spoiler alert he survives to

0:22:34.040 --> 0:22:37.320
<v Speaker 2>the end, but he's fucked for sure. Oh yeah, it's

0:22:37.400 --> 0:22:39.879
<v Speaker 2>just there's no coming back from that. No.

0:22:40.200 --> 0:22:43.240
<v Speaker 3>I usually don't read the Wikipedia synopsis because I'm like,

0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:46.199
<v Speaker 3>I did a great job at this. I don't need confirmation.

0:22:46.600 --> 0:22:48.840
<v Speaker 3>But because I didn't really understand a lot of what

0:22:48.880 --> 0:22:50.760
<v Speaker 3>happens in this movie, I was like, maybe I'll read

0:22:50.800 --> 0:22:52.280
<v Speaker 3>it and just like check my work.

0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:54.440
<v Speaker 2>Oh is he supposed to die?

0:22:54.560 --> 0:22:57.520
<v Speaker 3>It says on Wikipedia at least that he goes into

0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:02.520
<v Speaker 3>the bathtub to drown himself. Yes, Bob, so my I

0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:02.960
<v Speaker 3>don't know.

0:23:03.240 --> 0:23:08.200
<v Speaker 1>I upon reading, like and pon watching it this time around. Yeah,

0:23:08.720 --> 0:23:10.480
<v Speaker 1>when I first saw this, I was like, oh my god,

0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:13.800
<v Speaker 1>that's really dark at the end. I hate, like, sorry

0:23:13.840 --> 0:23:15.760
<v Speaker 1>that we're jumping to the end. But I do think

0:23:16.280 --> 0:23:18.600
<v Speaker 1>part of it is what we're talking about right now,

0:23:18.680 --> 0:23:21.560
<v Speaker 1>where the instance where Mark comes back and is cleaning

0:23:21.600 --> 0:23:24.120
<v Speaker 1>him up and he's going like, oh, he's like hit

0:23:24.160 --> 0:23:26.800
<v Speaker 1>a new world record with deep sea diving in the

0:23:26.800 --> 0:23:30.720
<v Speaker 1>bathtub because he's holding his breath, he's like playing. I

0:23:30.760 --> 0:23:33.719
<v Speaker 1>feel at the end he has become so avoidant that

0:23:33.800 --> 0:23:37.639
<v Speaker 1>the game he is playing becomes reality that he jumps

0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:43.040
<v Speaker 1>into the tub to play and inadvertently dies. Okay, Like,

0:23:43.080 --> 0:23:44.240
<v Speaker 1>I don't want to see this. I don't want to

0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:46.040
<v Speaker 1>see this. I want to go into my fantasy world,

0:23:46.040 --> 0:23:48.480
<v Speaker 1>which is in the tub, which is safe and comforting.

0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:52.439
<v Speaker 1>But then, yeah, I think that's to me, that's what

0:23:52.880 --> 0:23:54.800
<v Speaker 1>happens that track.

0:23:55.040 --> 0:23:59.040
<v Speaker 2>That makes sense to me. I mean yeah, I was like,

0:23:59.200 --> 0:24:02.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't think that's necessarily clear. But also so much

0:24:02.920 --> 0:24:06.760
<v Speaker 2>of this movie isn't that does? That does make sense?

0:24:06.800 --> 0:24:11.000
<v Speaker 2>And wow, way to add something horrifically tragic in literally

0:24:11.000 --> 0:24:12.639
<v Speaker 2>the last thirty seconds of the movie.

0:24:13.040 --> 0:24:16.640
<v Speaker 1>I know, I know, Jesus, it's either that or the apocalypse.

0:24:16.680 --> 0:24:19.960
<v Speaker 1>So I suppose maybe a bathtub is better than the apocalypse.

0:24:20.000 --> 0:24:20.560
<v Speaker 2>Who knows.

0:24:21.480 --> 0:24:23.639
<v Speaker 3>Seems like everyone was gonna die anyway.

0:24:24.640 --> 0:24:30.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, bleak okay. Ex nineteen eighty one in Germany baby.

0:24:32.600 --> 0:24:37.560
<v Speaker 3>So anyway, Mark is begging Anna to end things with Heinrich,

0:24:37.880 --> 0:24:41.320
<v Speaker 3>and she seems like maybe she'll comply with his request,

0:24:41.520 --> 0:24:45.200
<v Speaker 3>but she leaves again to go stay with Heinrich, and

0:24:45.240 --> 0:24:49.439
<v Speaker 3>Mark is trying to figure out where Heinrich is using

0:24:49.480 --> 0:24:52.399
<v Speaker 3>his spy skills, I guess, but he's like, again, not

0:24:52.400 --> 0:24:55.480
<v Speaker 3>doing a good job because he just calls Anna's friend

0:24:55.560 --> 0:24:57.959
<v Speaker 3>Margie all the time to be like where is Anna?

0:24:58.280 --> 0:25:00.440
<v Speaker 3>And it's like, aren't you a spy? What do you doing?

0:25:01.080 --> 0:25:01.240
<v Speaker 1>Right?

0:25:01.240 --> 0:25:01.560
<v Speaker 3>Anyway?

0:25:01.600 --> 0:25:06.080
<v Speaker 2>And Margie, we don't. I don't know what the hell

0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:11.199
<v Speaker 2>is going on with Margie. She is. It's almost like

0:25:11.840 --> 0:25:14.840
<v Speaker 2>this guy cannot It's like I will write one woman character,

0:25:15.000 --> 0:25:18.439
<v Speaker 2>but certainly not truly, because Margie is sort of just

0:25:18.600 --> 0:25:21.439
<v Speaker 2>slipping and sliding around. She says a couple of things,

0:25:21.480 --> 0:25:23.280
<v Speaker 2>but mostly she's just falling down.

0:25:23.680 --> 0:25:25.520
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, so much so that she broke her foot at

0:25:25.520 --> 0:25:28.600
<v Speaker 1>some point off camera we don't see, right, she comes in.

0:25:28.680 --> 0:25:30.119
<v Speaker 3>Just hobbling around on.

0:25:30.000 --> 0:25:32.920
<v Speaker 2>The broken foot, like I thought you meant the actor.

0:25:33.000 --> 0:25:34.560
<v Speaker 2>I was like, oh Jesus Christ.

0:25:35.040 --> 0:25:36.800
<v Speaker 1>All we know about her is that she's like accident

0:25:36.840 --> 0:25:41.760
<v Speaker 1>prone and you know, yeah, flirtatious and she gets.

0:25:41.560 --> 0:25:44.639
<v Speaker 3>One of those casts that has like a high heel

0:25:44.840 --> 0:25:46.200
<v Speaker 3>kind of built.

0:25:45.880 --> 0:25:53.360
<v Speaker 2>Into it, which I'm kind of into that. Also, we're told,

0:25:53.400 --> 0:25:56.240
<v Speaker 2>and again I'm assuming this is intentional, but I also

0:25:56.280 --> 0:25:58.800
<v Speaker 2>don't understand why, which is not the last time we'll

0:25:58.800 --> 0:26:02.800
<v Speaker 2>be saying that. But we're told that she is Anna's

0:26:02.840 --> 0:26:05.400
<v Speaker 2>best friend, but I don't think we ever see them talk.

0:26:05.720 --> 0:26:08.160
<v Speaker 2>And if she is Anna's best friend, she's a terrible friend.

0:26:08.200 --> 0:26:10.959
<v Speaker 2>She's always just trying to fuck her abusive husband. Yeah,

0:26:11.000 --> 0:26:14.040
<v Speaker 2>so it's I don't know, I'm really bizarre. And this

0:26:14.119 --> 0:26:17.919
<v Speaker 2>is like Zelawski. I will talk about his personal life

0:26:17.960 --> 0:26:21.040
<v Speaker 2>and his approach to working with actors as well, but like,

0:26:21.680 --> 0:26:23.520
<v Speaker 2>this is the kind of movie you watch and you're like, well,

0:26:23.880 --> 0:26:26.800
<v Speaker 2>this guy doesn't understand women at all, And then you

0:26:26.800 --> 0:26:29.919
<v Speaker 2>look at his personal life section on Wikipedia and you're like,

0:26:29.960 --> 0:26:33.440
<v Speaker 2>and he never figured it out and he never did.

0:26:33.480 --> 0:26:36.639
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, Margie, I can't account for Margie.

0:26:37.840 --> 0:26:43.600
<v Speaker 3>Nah, no one can. Yeah. Anyway, So Mark is trying

0:26:43.600 --> 0:26:47.399
<v Speaker 3>to locate this heinrich guy. Meanwhile, he's a single dad

0:26:47.480 --> 0:26:49.960
<v Speaker 3>now kind of, and so he has to drop off

0:26:49.960 --> 0:26:54.000
<v Speaker 3>his son Bob at school, and he mistakes the school

0:26:54.040 --> 0:27:00.120
<v Speaker 3>teacher Helen for Anna in a wig, but she is

0:27:00.119 --> 0:27:03.679
<v Speaker 3>is played by the same actor as Anna Isabella Johnny.

0:27:04.200 --> 0:27:08.000
<v Speaker 3>So he's not wrong, Like this person is some strange

0:27:08.080 --> 0:27:10.760
<v Speaker 3>doppelganger of Anna.

0:27:10.800 --> 0:27:13.280
<v Speaker 2>Right, who does all of the things that he thinks

0:27:13.400 --> 0:27:17.800
<v Speaker 2>is wrong with his actual wife, where she's very nurturing.

0:27:18.160 --> 0:27:22.280
<v Speaker 2>She's like quick to reassure him, like yeah, you know,

0:27:22.359 --> 0:27:26.879
<v Speaker 2>she's very like she's yeah, he's cooking there, but again

0:27:27.280 --> 0:27:31.399
<v Speaker 2>I don't quite get shrug. Yeah.

0:27:31.520 --> 0:27:35.479
<v Speaker 3>Then Mark goes to Heinrich's house and so we meet Heinrich.

0:27:35.520 --> 0:27:40.160
<v Speaker 3>He's played by Heinz Bennett. But Anna isn't there, and

0:27:40.440 --> 0:27:43.879
<v Speaker 3>Heinrich is. He's making some choices. He's very touchy feely.

0:27:44.400 --> 0:27:47.520
<v Speaker 3>He's like, relax, we don't have to be enemies.

0:27:47.920 --> 0:27:49.840
<v Speaker 2>He's a real he's a real piece of work. He's

0:27:49.880 --> 0:27:50.480
<v Speaker 2>like he's a shit.

0:27:50.960 --> 0:27:51.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah.

0:27:51.440 --> 0:27:53.760
<v Speaker 2>And there are all of these because he also has

0:27:53.760 --> 0:27:58.600
<v Speaker 2>said that he's like ditched his family. He's like a

0:27:58.640 --> 0:28:01.879
<v Speaker 2>fuck machine. But he with his mom and like doesn't

0:28:02.520 --> 0:28:06.600
<v Speaker 2>there's just so many bizarro elements of Heinrich.

0:28:07.000 --> 0:28:13.119
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, he wears spirituality like a costume just to seem fuckable,

0:28:13.240 --> 0:28:16.919
<v Speaker 1>to seem more emotionally in tune. With women, and I

0:28:17.000 --> 0:28:20.400
<v Speaker 1>really think that Zulawski was probably burned by a guy

0:28:20.560 --> 0:28:23.359
<v Speaker 1>just like this, and that's why this guy is so ridiculous.

0:28:23.680 --> 0:28:26.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there do feel like certain elements of the divorce.

0:28:27.359 --> 0:28:29.879
<v Speaker 2>If you're just focusing on the divorce narrative and like

0:28:30.040 --> 0:28:32.760
<v Speaker 2>stay away from the doppelgegers of the tentacle port and

0:28:33.160 --> 0:28:35.600
<v Speaker 2>all the other stuff going on, it does feel like

0:28:36.000 --> 0:28:39.320
<v Speaker 2>this guy is too specific to not be referencing someone

0:28:39.480 --> 0:28:41.120
<v Speaker 2>he actually knew exactly.

0:28:41.400 --> 0:28:43.760
<v Speaker 3>He also, Heinrich also has a lot of books, and

0:28:43.760 --> 0:28:46.080
<v Speaker 3>it seems like he was maybe trying to like enlighten

0:28:46.720 --> 0:28:51.200
<v Speaker 3>Anna through all of his knowledge from books and so,

0:28:52.000 --> 0:28:55.120
<v Speaker 3>not that that's a bad thing necessarily, but in this context,

0:28:55.560 --> 0:29:00.120
<v Speaker 3>it's like you're it's like disingenuous, silly, simple woman who

0:29:00.160 --> 0:29:02.960
<v Speaker 3>doesn't understand the world, So let me educate.

0:29:02.600 --> 0:29:05.920
<v Speaker 2>You, right, which is like such a I don't know. Unfortunately,

0:29:06.400 --> 0:29:09.840
<v Speaker 2>who among us hasn't gone from one abuse of relationship

0:29:09.880 --> 0:29:14.160
<v Speaker 2>to a different kind of bad relationship indeed exactly.

0:29:15.400 --> 0:29:20.560
<v Speaker 3>So anyway, Mark is there confronting Heinrich, and he's furious,

0:29:20.640 --> 0:29:24.080
<v Speaker 3>so they end up arguing and brawling, although mostly it's

0:29:24.120 --> 0:29:29.360
<v Speaker 3>Heinrich kicking Mark's ass and so Mark returns home. Anna

0:29:29.520 --> 0:29:32.440
<v Speaker 3>is back. Like ninety percent of this movie is just

0:29:32.520 --> 0:29:36.960
<v Speaker 3>like people returning home, and sometimes the one spouse is there,

0:29:37.040 --> 0:29:39.800
<v Speaker 3>sometimes they aren't. It's just a lot of coming and going.

0:29:40.440 --> 0:29:45.320
<v Speaker 3>But for now Anna is back and she's expressing how

0:29:45.320 --> 0:29:49.760
<v Speaker 3>conflicted she feels about different things, though she declares once

0:29:49.800 --> 0:29:52.440
<v Speaker 3>again that she does want to leave Mark for good.

0:29:53.040 --> 0:29:55.560
<v Speaker 3>And they're screaming at each other and it becomes very

0:29:55.600 --> 0:30:01.240
<v Speaker 3>physically abusive and Anna runs out. Mark chases after her.

0:30:02.160 --> 0:30:05.760
<v Speaker 3>Either he bumps into Anna's friend Margie or maybe he

0:30:05.840 --> 0:30:08.520
<v Speaker 3>has like asked her to come over.

0:30:08.640 --> 0:30:10.320
<v Speaker 2>And then she says one of my favorite lines in

0:30:10.360 --> 0:30:12.440
<v Speaker 2>the movie, which is something akin to like I love

0:30:12.520 --> 0:30:13.600
<v Speaker 2>to see you in pain.

0:30:14.160 --> 0:30:15.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, because they hate each other.

0:30:15.880 --> 0:30:19.400
<v Speaker 2>They do, yeah, but it's like a little but it

0:30:19.480 --> 0:30:22.840
<v Speaker 2>turns her on how much she hates him, right, which

0:30:22.920 --> 0:30:28.440
<v Speaker 2>is like okay, maybe sure, like sure it's happened, right,

0:30:28.480 --> 0:30:32.040
<v Speaker 2>but it's just her character is so weird, so such

0:30:32.080 --> 0:30:33.160
<v Speaker 2>a such a weird lady.

0:30:33.440 --> 0:30:36.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. But she comes over to help with Bob because

0:30:36.600 --> 0:30:40.040
<v Speaker 3>Mark is just not doing a good job as a parent.

0:30:41.080 --> 0:30:45.880
<v Speaker 3>And then Mark hires a private detective to follow Anna

0:30:46.160 --> 0:30:48.840
<v Speaker 3>to see what she's up to despite the fact that

0:30:48.880 --> 0:30:51.320
<v Speaker 3>Mark is a spy and you'd think he could do this.

0:30:51.600 --> 0:30:54.480
<v Speaker 3>Not that I'm like advocating for a man to stalk

0:30:54.760 --> 0:30:56.880
<v Speaker 3>his wife, but I'm like, why aren't you using your

0:30:56.880 --> 0:30:57.600
<v Speaker 3>skills anyway?

0:30:58.440 --> 0:31:02.040
<v Speaker 2>Right, he hires someone else. It's funny, like yeah, and

0:31:02.080 --> 0:31:04.560
<v Speaker 2>also just like another such a clear indicator that he

0:31:04.600 --> 0:31:07.120
<v Speaker 2>does not actually care about Anna at all, because she's

0:31:07.200 --> 0:31:12.280
<v Speaker 2>clearly having an episode of some sort. And what is

0:31:12.320 --> 0:31:17.280
<v Speaker 2>going to exacerbate an episode, but actual surveillance like that

0:31:17.600 --> 0:31:19.880
<v Speaker 2>is going to heighten any feeling of paranoid that she's

0:31:19.880 --> 0:31:23.320
<v Speaker 2>clearly already experiencing. It's just like you really want to

0:31:23.800 --> 0:31:25.800
<v Speaker 2>push him off the top of a building for that.

0:31:25.680 --> 0:31:31.160
<v Speaker 3>One, you certainly do. So Anna once again returns home.

0:31:32.080 --> 0:31:36.320
<v Speaker 3>Mark is desperate for her to communicate with him and

0:31:36.480 --> 0:31:39.640
<v Speaker 3>to understand what's going on, but she's like kind of

0:31:39.720 --> 0:31:44.760
<v Speaker 3>too busy slicing up some meat with an electric meat carver.

0:31:44.800 --> 0:31:52.680
<v Speaker 2>And that's definitely not a like metaphor for whatever, right,

0:31:52.720 --> 0:31:54.760
<v Speaker 2>it's just making raw meat really tiny.

0:31:56.720 --> 0:32:00.959
<v Speaker 3>And then she uses this electric meat carver to cut

0:32:01.000 --> 0:32:02.880
<v Speaker 3>her neck a little bit. It seems like she might

0:32:02.920 --> 0:32:07.959
<v Speaker 3>be attempting suicide, but Mark stops her and treats her wound,

0:32:08.240 --> 0:32:10.600
<v Speaker 3>and things have calmed down a.

0:32:10.520 --> 0:32:15.880
<v Speaker 2>Bit, and he also like attempts to injure himself too, Yes, yeah,

0:32:15.880 --> 0:32:20.320
<v Speaker 2>which I feel like is again another like yeah, he's

0:32:20.360 --> 0:32:23.520
<v Speaker 2>trying to do something there, like I don't know, but

0:32:23.520 --> 0:32:27.760
<v Speaker 2>but Mark. Mark's attempts to empathize with Anna are so

0:32:29.200 --> 0:32:32.960
<v Speaker 2>half hearted and misguided that he's like, oh, I want

0:32:32.960 --> 0:32:36.160
<v Speaker 2>to feel the physical pain that you're feeling, because that

0:32:36.440 --> 0:32:38.920
<v Speaker 2>is like more comfortable than me actually giving a fuck

0:32:39.040 --> 0:32:42.160
<v Speaker 2>off like what you're feeling or going through. Yeah.

0:32:42.440 --> 0:32:44.840
<v Speaker 1>I also felt like he was just acting like a

0:32:44.840 --> 0:32:48.080
<v Speaker 1>complete child for most of this too. He's just like,

0:32:49.000 --> 0:32:50.960
<v Speaker 1>you know, like, oh, you did it, I'm going to

0:32:51.000 --> 0:32:53.840
<v Speaker 1>do it too, And I don't know she and she

0:32:53.880 --> 0:32:57.000
<v Speaker 1>doesn't help him, like she sees him cutting himself and

0:32:57.040 --> 0:32:59.600
<v Speaker 1>she's like I'm out and he's like it doesn't hurt.

0:32:59.680 --> 0:33:02.200
<v Speaker 1>She's like, no, it doesn't hurt. And that was that

0:33:02.400 --> 0:33:04.560
<v Speaker 1>was one moment where I was like whoa, Like you're

0:33:04.560 --> 0:33:07.600
<v Speaker 1>both acknowledging that this torture that you're putting each other

0:33:07.640 --> 0:33:10.080
<v Speaker 1>through actually is like, oh, I don't feel anything at

0:33:10.080 --> 0:33:12.240
<v Speaker 1>all for you for this.

0:33:12.320 --> 0:33:13.960
<v Speaker 3>Like yeah, yeah, it's wild.

0:33:14.600 --> 0:33:18.200
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that was like I feel like it's one of

0:33:18.200 --> 0:33:20.800
<v Speaker 2>the reads of it is that, like they're whatever, all

0:33:20.840 --> 0:33:24.960
<v Speaker 2>the physical pain they're experiencing is our divorce feelings, and

0:33:25.000 --> 0:33:28.520
<v Speaker 2>that's like part of the reason that they're heightening their

0:33:28.560 --> 0:33:30.680
<v Speaker 2>actions so much is because it's like so hard to

0:33:30.720 --> 0:33:34.960
<v Speaker 2>feel anything for each other, which is that's that's dark

0:33:35.200 --> 0:33:41.480
<v Speaker 2>divorce heads sound off in the chat. It seems bad.

0:33:42.600 --> 0:33:45.960
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so you'll never believe this. But Anna leaves again.

0:33:46.560 --> 0:33:47.560
<v Speaker 3>She's always coming.

0:33:47.320 --> 0:33:48.960
<v Speaker 2>And going, that's kind of her thing.

0:33:49.120 --> 0:33:53.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, And that detective who Mark had hired follows her

0:33:53.960 --> 0:33:56.920
<v Speaker 3>and discovers that she's been renting an apartment in this

0:33:57.040 --> 0:34:00.000
<v Speaker 3>like derelict building. So he knocks on the door, pretend

0:34:00.240 --> 0:34:02.480
<v Speaker 3>to be like from the building manager's office, and he

0:34:02.520 --> 0:34:06.800
<v Speaker 3>looks around and he finds something very disturbing unclear at

0:34:06.800 --> 0:34:10.480
<v Speaker 3>this point exactly what we're seeing, but it's some creature

0:34:11.000 --> 0:34:16.279
<v Speaker 3>that's bloody and gooey. Then Anna kills the detective with

0:34:16.320 --> 0:34:20.719
<v Speaker 3>a broken wine bottle. So things have taken a turn

0:34:20.960 --> 0:34:23.000
<v Speaker 3>that I certainly was not expecting.

0:34:23.800 --> 0:34:26.680
<v Speaker 2>You never forget your first time seeing the big guy

0:34:26.800 --> 0:34:29.280
<v Speaker 2>guy or murdered.

0:34:29.120 --> 0:34:36.280
<v Speaker 3>Right, yeah, right exactly. Meanwhile, at home, Bob's teacher, Helen

0:34:36.560 --> 0:34:41.120
<v Speaker 3>aka the Anna doppelganger, shows up, and Mark is like,

0:34:41.400 --> 0:34:45.759
<v Speaker 3>here finished giving my son a bath. Because Heinrich also

0:34:45.880 --> 0:34:49.359
<v Speaker 3>shows up. He's acting very weird. He's flopping all over

0:34:49.400 --> 0:34:50.840
<v Speaker 3>the place. I'm not sure if he's supposed to be

0:34:50.920 --> 0:34:52.080
<v Speaker 3>drunk or something.

0:34:51.760 --> 0:34:54.960
<v Speaker 2>But he's I think he's always like some manner of

0:34:55.080 --> 0:34:55.680
<v Speaker 2>fucked up.

0:34:56.120 --> 0:34:56.560
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:34:56.600 --> 0:34:59.719
<v Speaker 2>He takes a lot of drugs too, right, Yeah, And.

0:34:59.680 --> 0:35:03.080
<v Speaker 3>He went to know where Anna is and Mark is

0:35:03.120 --> 0:35:06.120
<v Speaker 3>basically like, get out of here, bitch, I'm not afraid

0:35:06.120 --> 0:35:12.160
<v Speaker 3>of you anymore. Then Mark and Helen chat a little

0:35:12.239 --> 0:35:15.879
<v Speaker 3>bit first about Bob, and then Mark says something where

0:35:15.880 --> 0:35:20.160
<v Speaker 3>he's like women are evil and Helen's like I'm right here.

0:35:21.040 --> 0:35:24.759
<v Speaker 2>Right well. And it's also like implied and this is

0:35:24.800 --> 0:35:27.880
<v Speaker 2>where I was like, oh god, where where is my

0:35:27.960 --> 0:35:31.760
<v Speaker 2>high school history education? Like where did it go? Where

0:35:31.840 --> 0:35:36.600
<v Speaker 2>she implies that she is from East Germany and is

0:35:36.640 --> 0:35:38.759
<v Speaker 2>now in West Germany, and there is like this whole

0:35:38.800 --> 0:35:42.560
<v Speaker 2>political aspect to her identity that I genuinely don't think

0:35:42.560 --> 0:35:46.000
<v Speaker 2>I know enough about to say exactly what he's getting at,

0:35:46.040 --> 0:35:49.880
<v Speaker 2>but that she it's implying basically that she has seen

0:35:49.960 --> 0:35:54.719
<v Speaker 2>horror so much worse than what she's She's sort of like,

0:35:54.840 --> 0:35:58.319
<v Speaker 2>shut the fuck up, like I've seen people die, which

0:35:58.360 --> 0:36:02.160
<v Speaker 2>I kind of appreciate. Yeah, but then she still is

0:36:02.400 --> 0:36:05.960
<v Speaker 2>That's really the only moment that she really pushes back

0:36:06.000 --> 0:36:10.840
<v Speaker 2>on Mark in any significant way. So I found her again.

0:36:10.880 --> 0:36:14.960
<v Speaker 2>I like whatever that is. I like it, but it

0:36:15.000 --> 0:36:19.480
<v Speaker 2>felt like it was like dipping its toe into doing something.

0:36:19.520 --> 0:36:22.560
<v Speaker 2>But then she becomes very docile and kind of submissive

0:36:22.600 --> 0:36:25.920
<v Speaker 2>to what he wants after that, So it's weird that

0:36:25.920 --> 0:36:27.960
<v Speaker 2>that only happens once. I don't know.

0:36:28.400 --> 0:36:31.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, she also says something to the effect of like, Okay,

0:36:31.640 --> 0:36:34.520
<v Speaker 1>she says, the only thing in common with women is

0:36:34.560 --> 0:36:41.839
<v Speaker 1>like menstruation, which okay, but then yeah, exactly. But then

0:36:41.960 --> 0:36:46.239
<v Speaker 1>she says something to the effect of like, you're kind

0:36:46.320 --> 0:36:51.239
<v Speaker 1>of only getting angry because you don't understand freedom, and

0:36:51.280 --> 0:36:53.360
<v Speaker 1>it's sort of like you are the problem here, buddy,

0:36:53.680 --> 0:36:57.399
<v Speaker 1>Like you're getting mad at her for being a free person, yeah,

0:36:57.719 --> 0:37:01.919
<v Speaker 1>like for for having agency and sort of I saw

0:37:02.000 --> 0:37:04.400
<v Speaker 1>again there where he was being a child and the

0:37:04.440 --> 0:37:07.759
<v Speaker 1>teachers stepping in and being like no, no, no, you're

0:37:07.800 --> 0:37:09.560
<v Speaker 1>actually the asshole in this situation.

0:37:10.440 --> 0:37:13.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And then it's just like so bizarre that that

0:37:14.080 --> 0:37:19.200
<v Speaker 2>is sort of dropped to the bitter end of the movie.

0:37:19.280 --> 0:37:22.400
<v Speaker 2>She's sort of just like doing whatever the plot needs

0:37:22.400 --> 0:37:24.520
<v Speaker 2>her to do. It seems, yeah, it's.

0:37:24.360 --> 0:37:29.560
<v Speaker 3>Weird, including immediately after this, they get naked together and

0:37:29.680 --> 0:37:32.200
<v Speaker 3>lie down next to each other, and it's unclear if

0:37:32.239 --> 0:37:34.799
<v Speaker 3>they end up having sex, but she's I.

0:37:34.719 --> 0:37:38.320
<v Speaker 2>Don't think they. I've read some theories about like Mark

0:37:38.520 --> 0:37:42.719
<v Speaker 2>in general, about like how Mark feels about sex and

0:37:42.800 --> 0:37:45.799
<v Speaker 2>about women in general, where there are reads of this

0:37:45.880 --> 0:37:51.480
<v Speaker 2>movie where Mark is thought to be closeted and instead

0:37:51.719 --> 0:37:54.040
<v Speaker 2>of and this is like not a read that I

0:37:54.080 --> 0:37:56.279
<v Speaker 2>have necessarily, but it wasn't something that occurred to me

0:37:56.320 --> 0:37:59.920
<v Speaker 2>before I was going through this viewing. Is that Mark,

0:38:00.280 --> 0:38:03.319
<v Speaker 2>I mean, part of it seems like Anna's issue with

0:38:03.360 --> 0:38:07.160
<v Speaker 2>the marriage is that, like she's not satisfied sexually. There

0:38:07.239 --> 0:38:11.799
<v Speaker 2>are a series of times where Mark doesn't have Well.

0:38:11.840 --> 0:38:14.120
<v Speaker 2>The real sort of thing that this hinges on is

0:38:14.200 --> 0:38:17.960
<v Speaker 2>there are three shots. I didn't notice it until this viewing.

0:38:18.680 --> 0:38:21.520
<v Speaker 2>There's three sort of very similar shots in the movie

0:38:21.680 --> 0:38:25.359
<v Speaker 2>that happened with each member of the family where it's

0:38:25.400 --> 0:38:30.640
<v Speaker 2>like it's first with Mark holding Bob when he's not

0:38:30.719 --> 0:38:32.759
<v Speaker 2>wearing a shirt. It's not a sexual thing at all,

0:38:32.800 --> 0:38:34.920
<v Speaker 2>but he's just like looking at his son. And then

0:38:34.960 --> 0:38:37.680
<v Speaker 2>there's later an identical shot where he looks at Anna

0:38:38.000 --> 0:38:40.080
<v Speaker 2>in the exact same way, in the exact same shot,

0:38:40.120 --> 0:38:42.640
<v Speaker 2>which I think is meant to imply that he doesn't

0:38:42.840 --> 0:38:47.439
<v Speaker 2>view her sexually, he just but also you could view

0:38:47.520 --> 0:38:50.919
<v Speaker 2>that as like she he views her as his quote

0:38:51.000 --> 0:38:54.160
<v Speaker 2>unquote property, the way he views his son as his property.

0:38:54.239 --> 0:38:56.799
<v Speaker 2>And so like, there's all of these I did see

0:38:56.840 --> 0:38:59.320
<v Speaker 2>reads of this that thought that Bob was closeted. I

0:38:59.400 --> 0:39:02.239
<v Speaker 2>don't really think that, but I do think that he

0:39:02.239 --> 0:39:06.560
<v Speaker 2>he has no idea how he feels about anything, which

0:39:06.600 --> 0:39:08.840
<v Speaker 2>is true for a lot of people, and reacts with

0:39:08.920 --> 0:39:11.000
<v Speaker 2>violence instead. But this was the first time that I

0:39:11.040 --> 0:39:13.640
<v Speaker 2>really noticed that. And then there's a shot where, oh

0:39:13.640 --> 0:39:15.760
<v Speaker 2>my gosh, what is the last version of that shot?

0:39:15.800 --> 0:39:19.480
<v Speaker 2>I think it's towards the end, Anna looking at Anna

0:39:19.560 --> 0:39:22.799
<v Speaker 2>looking at Mark with the same sort of like I

0:39:22.800 --> 0:39:24.640
<v Speaker 2>don't know, like I don't even know how to describe

0:39:24.680 --> 0:39:25.160
<v Speaker 2>that look.

0:39:25.640 --> 0:39:29.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the read I had on it this time was

0:39:29.239 --> 0:39:31.960
<v Speaker 1>that the first shot of Mark looking at Bob and

0:39:31.960 --> 0:39:34.160
<v Speaker 1>holding him that way is like you are my creation.

0:39:34.520 --> 0:39:36.840
<v Speaker 1>You know, like you're my son. And then him looking

0:39:36.880 --> 0:39:39.840
<v Speaker 1>at Anna is a similar way of like Adam and

0:39:39.960 --> 0:39:42.799
<v Speaker 1>Eve like you are part of me, like from my

0:39:42.960 --> 0:39:46.799
<v Speaker 1>rib type thing. And I'm going totally biblical on this

0:39:47.040 --> 0:39:50.760
<v Speaker 1>just because I grew up in an awful like evangelical

0:39:50.960 --> 0:39:54.680
<v Speaker 1>like that's my upbringing, so I can't like unsee some

0:39:54.760 --> 0:39:58.040
<v Speaker 1>of these things. But then when she's looking at him

0:39:58.040 --> 0:40:00.319
<v Speaker 1>and she takes off his shirt and she looks him

0:40:00.360 --> 0:40:03.359
<v Speaker 1>and she's like, I am God is in me, It's like,

0:40:03.360 --> 0:40:07.520
<v Speaker 1>oh fuck, like I am the creator. We don't really

0:40:07.800 --> 0:40:10.719
<v Speaker 1>know this about her just yet when she says that,

0:40:10.840 --> 0:40:14.920
<v Speaker 1>but it's almost like I'm in control now. That's how

0:40:14.960 --> 0:40:16.840
<v Speaker 1>I read it totally.

0:40:18.040 --> 0:40:21.719
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this movie's attitude towards sex, I guess is just

0:40:21.880 --> 0:40:27.040
<v Speaker 2>really uh twisted and bizarre. All that to say, I'm

0:40:27.080 --> 0:40:29.359
<v Speaker 2>pretty sure he does not have sex with Helen because

0:40:29.520 --> 0:40:31.600
<v Speaker 2>because she says, you don't have to make love to me,

0:40:31.640 --> 0:40:33.440
<v Speaker 2>and he seems sort of like few.

0:40:33.440 --> 0:40:34.480
<v Speaker 3>He's like, I wasn't trying.

0:40:34.840 --> 0:40:35.040
<v Speaker 1>I know.

0:40:35.320 --> 0:40:38.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, He's like, we're this is just this is just

0:40:38.600 --> 0:40:41.800
<v Speaker 2>a divorce, naked time whatever.

0:40:42.160 --> 0:40:47.080
<v Speaker 3>I don't know right, So that happens the next day

0:40:47.600 --> 0:40:52.560
<v Speaker 3>another detective who works with the first detective and is

0:40:52.600 --> 0:40:57.120
<v Speaker 3>his romantic partner, is concerned that the first detective hasn't

0:40:57.480 --> 0:41:01.440
<v Speaker 3>shown up. So the second detective I think his name

0:41:01.520 --> 0:41:06.200
<v Speaker 3>might be Zimmerman. He goes to Anna's new apartment and

0:41:06.360 --> 0:41:11.840
<v Speaker 3>finds the same bloody, gooey creature lying in the bed.

0:41:12.640 --> 0:41:16.560
<v Speaker 3>Now we can see that it has tentacles. There's also

0:41:16.600 --> 0:41:21.920
<v Speaker 3>some light emanating from its abdomen. It's oozing all sorts

0:41:21.920 --> 0:41:27.120
<v Speaker 3>of like blood and white and green goo. And Anna

0:41:27.280 --> 0:41:30.799
<v Speaker 3>is like, oh him, he's tired. He made love to

0:41:30.840 --> 0:41:31.759
<v Speaker 3>me all night.

0:41:32.200 --> 0:41:34.360
<v Speaker 2>Oh haha.

0:41:34.680 --> 0:41:39.160
<v Speaker 3>By the way, he's still unfinished, implying that she's like

0:41:39.520 --> 0:41:42.200
<v Speaker 3>working on the creature or that it's going to turn

0:41:42.280 --> 0:41:46.040
<v Speaker 3>into something else, right, and then she attacks and shoots

0:41:46.040 --> 0:41:52.680
<v Speaker 3>and kills the detective. Meanwhile, Mark receives a package. It's

0:41:53.000 --> 0:41:57.040
<v Speaker 3>footage of someone filming a ballet class where Anna is

0:41:57.080 --> 0:41:59.800
<v Speaker 3>the teacher, and we see her be very cruel to

0:42:00.040 --> 0:42:04.160
<v Speaker 3>one of her young students, and then she's talking to

0:42:04.360 --> 0:42:09.880
<v Speaker 3>the camera, ranting and raving about sisters and faith and

0:42:10.080 --> 0:42:13.880
<v Speaker 3>chance and other things that don't make much sense.

0:42:14.760 --> 0:42:19.239
<v Speaker 2>I always forget that that scene is in the movie, right,

0:42:19.360 --> 0:42:24.560
<v Speaker 2>because I what does everyone think's going on? There can

0:42:24.640 --> 0:42:30.040
<v Speaker 2>someone I I have theories, but I yeah, Alicia, what's happening.

0:42:30.400 --> 0:42:32.960
<v Speaker 1>Well, this most recent time that I was reading it

0:42:33.200 --> 0:42:36.760
<v Speaker 1>or watching it, sorry, I was thinking about Well, first

0:42:36.840 --> 0:42:41.000
<v Speaker 1>the whole scene with the ballerina and her like she's

0:42:41.040 --> 0:42:44.480
<v Speaker 1>being super cool to her student and whatnot. This is

0:42:44.480 --> 0:42:46.839
<v Speaker 1>all filmed by Heinrich, and I think that Heinrich sent

0:42:46.960 --> 0:42:49.120
<v Speaker 1>these videos to Mark to be like, see I'm the

0:42:49.120 --> 0:42:52.440
<v Speaker 1>superior man. But like the whole Mark gets something different

0:42:52.440 --> 0:42:55.319
<v Speaker 1>out of this. As Anna's talking, she says, this is

0:42:55.320 --> 0:42:58.000
<v Speaker 1>why I'm with you, Heinrich, because you say I for me.

0:42:58.560 --> 0:43:01.000
<v Speaker 1>And what she is saying and then instance this is

0:43:01.000 --> 0:43:03.560
<v Speaker 1>in the past, you know, with during their relationship, you

0:43:03.600 --> 0:43:05.440
<v Speaker 1>say aye for me. When I hear that, I think

0:43:06.040 --> 0:43:09.160
<v Speaker 1>you speak for me. You take my agency, you like

0:43:09.280 --> 0:43:14.200
<v Speaker 1>make it easier to you know, not be responsible, like

0:43:14.320 --> 0:43:19.000
<v Speaker 1>to just like go about this affair, and you know,

0:43:19.040 --> 0:43:22.200
<v Speaker 1>you speak for me. But then in the next section,

0:43:22.360 --> 0:43:26.160
<v Speaker 1>she's sort of having a breakdown and she is starting

0:43:26.160 --> 0:43:28.520
<v Speaker 1>to think about the sister's faith and chance and there's

0:43:28.560 --> 0:43:31.640
<v Speaker 1>like the duality there. A very small detail that we

0:43:31.920 --> 0:43:35.439
<v Speaker 1>caught at the beginning was that she was briefly with Mark.

0:43:35.480 --> 0:43:39.120
<v Speaker 1>They had a child and he went away pretty quickly after. Yeah,

0:43:39.160 --> 0:43:41.400
<v Speaker 1>so I feel like she was really taking a chance

0:43:41.480 --> 0:43:44.120
<v Speaker 1>with Mark, taking a chance on being a mother, taking

0:43:44.160 --> 0:43:47.120
<v Speaker 1>a chance on having this relationship with Mark and being

0:43:47.160 --> 0:43:49.680
<v Speaker 1>his wife and all of that. But somewhere along the way,

0:43:49.719 --> 0:43:53.719
<v Speaker 1>her faith in them gets ripped apart. So now she's

0:43:53.760 --> 0:43:57.000
<v Speaker 1>trying to rebuild her faith, which could be taken as

0:43:57.040 --> 0:44:02.680
<v Speaker 1>the creature, So that's one interpretation. She also talks about

0:44:02.719 --> 0:44:06.799
<v Speaker 1>having to be everything to everybody else, Yeah, and so

0:44:06.960 --> 0:44:10.680
<v Speaker 1>losing losing any sort of like possession of the self.

0:44:12.040 --> 0:44:15.839
<v Speaker 2>That's fascinating. Okay, I I had not connected the dots

0:44:15.880 --> 0:44:17.319
<v Speaker 2>in that way, so thank you for them.

0:44:17.760 --> 0:44:20.280
<v Speaker 1>That's just my reading though, That's just what I'm bringing

0:44:20.360 --> 0:44:20.719
<v Speaker 1>to it.

0:44:21.000 --> 0:44:24.040
<v Speaker 2>That's I mean, this movie is Lucy goosey baby. There's

0:44:24.040 --> 0:44:26.280
<v Speaker 2>no wrong answers, But that makes a lot of sense.

0:44:26.520 --> 0:44:30.600
<v Speaker 3>Gooey tooey gooey.

0:44:30.719 --> 0:44:34.759
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. My I always forget that scene is there, and

0:44:34.800 --> 0:44:36.880
<v Speaker 2>then I like rewatched it a couple of times just

0:44:36.880 --> 0:44:39.360
<v Speaker 2>to be like, huh, okay, okay, I wasn't clear. I

0:44:39.360 --> 0:44:42.480
<v Speaker 2>mean they say that she stopped working about a year ago,

0:44:42.719 --> 0:44:47.640
<v Speaker 2>which to me also already indicates like perhaps an impending crisis,

0:44:47.800 --> 0:44:51.080
<v Speaker 2>which is certainly true for Mark who leaves his job

0:44:51.160 --> 0:44:54.040
<v Speaker 2>and immediately spirals into crisis. So when I was seeing

0:44:54.080 --> 0:44:55.759
<v Speaker 2>the ballet tapes, I was like, Okay, maybe that was

0:44:55.760 --> 0:44:58.600
<v Speaker 2>her job that she stepped away from, because we don't

0:44:58.640 --> 0:45:01.440
<v Speaker 2>really get a lot of information about or otherwise, And

0:45:01.520 --> 0:45:03.600
<v Speaker 2>it felt like, I mean, and again, maybe it's like

0:45:03.920 --> 0:45:07.680
<v Speaker 2>this is where I'm projecting stuff where in an environment

0:45:07.840 --> 0:45:12.560
<v Speaker 2>like that it can be not always. Obviously there's plenty

0:45:12.560 --> 0:45:16.600
<v Speaker 2>of dance instructors that are amazing, but you're in a

0:45:16.680 --> 0:45:18.840
<v Speaker 2>room full of people you perceive as your younger self.

0:45:19.280 --> 0:45:21.840
<v Speaker 2>And I do think that there are teacher student dynamics

0:45:21.880 --> 0:45:25.560
<v Speaker 2>where if you are singled out as like a sight

0:45:25.920 --> 0:45:31.440
<v Speaker 2>of pain and abuse, it's often because the teacher is like,

0:45:31.640 --> 0:45:34.320
<v Speaker 2>I see my younger self in you, and I should

0:45:34.320 --> 0:45:36.359
<v Speaker 2>have experienced that pain and then I would have been

0:45:36.880 --> 0:45:38.560
<v Speaker 2>x y Z. Where I feel like that comes up

0:45:38.600 --> 0:45:43.000
<v Speaker 2>in athletics a lot, or like whatever, black swant, whiplash,

0:45:43.040 --> 0:45:46.120
<v Speaker 2>you name it, like the pursuit of being the right

0:45:46.239 --> 0:45:51.239
<v Speaker 2>way is not to require suffering, and so it's like

0:45:51.520 --> 0:45:54.160
<v Speaker 2>it's weirdly, I'm like ititon ya you know, we could

0:45:54.239 --> 0:45:58.239
<v Speaker 2>keep going of just like the forceful coach who abuses

0:45:58.320 --> 0:46:01.440
<v Speaker 2>the young student to quoteunqut push them to greatness, but

0:46:01.480 --> 0:46:05.040
<v Speaker 2>it's also because they hate something in themselves. And again

0:46:05.120 --> 0:46:07.640
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I don't know exactly where that would fit

0:46:07.719 --> 0:46:10.880
<v Speaker 2>into this movie specifically, but I don't know. Yeah, my

0:46:11.000 --> 0:46:15.239
<v Speaker 2>read of it in this viewing was like that there

0:46:15.320 --> 0:46:17.960
<v Speaker 2>is a part of Anna that does experience this like

0:46:18.040 --> 0:46:22.040
<v Speaker 2>extreme self hatred or the idea that like, I mean,

0:46:22.080 --> 0:46:26.200
<v Speaker 2>this is definitely clear that she is not fitting into

0:46:26.239 --> 0:46:29.680
<v Speaker 2>the roles she's supposed to fit into correctly, and that

0:46:29.719 --> 0:46:34.480
<v Speaker 2>she's and so much of why I love even though

0:46:34.520 --> 0:46:38.680
<v Speaker 2>it's she's not great, you know, but like, uh, I

0:46:38.719 --> 0:46:41.680
<v Speaker 2>love those moments of her extreme anger, even though, oh

0:46:41.680 --> 0:46:43.840
<v Speaker 2>my god, this movie could be hard on the ears.

0:46:43.880 --> 0:46:46.920
<v Speaker 2>There's so much screaming, so much just so much scream

0:46:47.040 --> 0:46:49.880
<v Speaker 2>and the sound mixing is like it seems like it

0:46:49.920 --> 0:46:51.520
<v Speaker 2>was pretty much done on the fly because there's a

0:46:51.600 --> 0:46:54.480
<v Speaker 2>lot of echoes, there's a lot of tunnel echoes whatever.

0:46:55.000 --> 0:46:58.440
<v Speaker 2>But when she's angry, it's just I don't know, Like

0:46:58.480 --> 0:47:02.240
<v Speaker 2>I again, this is like me directing probably, but it's like, god,

0:47:02.320 --> 0:47:05.000
<v Speaker 2>I've done everything I was supposed to do and it

0:47:05.040 --> 0:47:07.960
<v Speaker 2>didn't work, and I'm like so much worse off than

0:47:08.000 --> 0:47:10.560
<v Speaker 2>I started. And that's like I don't know, Like I

0:47:10.600 --> 0:47:12.800
<v Speaker 2>just feel that in her so much, and to me,

0:47:12.960 --> 0:47:14.880
<v Speaker 2>that's what the monster is, is like I did everything

0:47:14.920 --> 0:47:18.880
<v Speaker 2>I was supposed to it and I'm absolutely fucked and like,

0:47:19.640 --> 0:47:22.640
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, I don't know, but yeah, that taped

0:47:22.680 --> 0:47:24.439
<v Speaker 2>this time, I was like, how does this fit into

0:47:24.480 --> 0:47:28.640
<v Speaker 2>her story? And her story is vague enough that you

0:47:28.680 --> 0:47:30.799
<v Speaker 2>can kind of go a lot of ways with it.

0:47:31.520 --> 0:47:36.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, truly, Yeah, and I'm still I'm trying to figure

0:47:36.440 --> 0:47:37.799
<v Speaker 3>this Anna out to.

0:47:37.800 --> 0:47:41.239
<v Speaker 2>This day, this diva who knows, who knows what's going

0:47:41.280 --> 0:47:42.480
<v Speaker 2>on with nose rip?

0:47:43.000 --> 0:47:47.879
<v Speaker 1>I mean those shoes, the sunglasses, Oh my god, wow,

0:47:48.000 --> 0:47:51.520
<v Speaker 1>pause for the for the fashion, It's like so fucking truly.

0:47:52.320 --> 0:47:55.680
<v Speaker 2>I also like that there's like this cartoon character quality

0:47:55.719 --> 0:47:58.080
<v Speaker 2>to their clothes where we know that this movie takes

0:47:58.120 --> 0:48:02.480
<v Speaker 2>place at least over about a month or so, because

0:48:02.480 --> 0:48:04.719
<v Speaker 2>at one point there's just three lost weeks that has

0:48:04.800 --> 0:48:08.160
<v Speaker 2>never referenced again and Bob. We're led to believe that

0:48:08.160 --> 0:48:12.239
<v Speaker 2>Bob was surviving on jam or something horrible, but this

0:48:12.320 --> 0:48:15.440
<v Speaker 2>movie takes place over like more than a day. And

0:48:15.560 --> 0:48:19.400
<v Speaker 2>yet no, everyone's outfit is the same. It's like they're

0:48:19.480 --> 0:48:21.040
<v Speaker 2>spongebobbing it very blue.

0:48:21.280 --> 0:48:25.520
<v Speaker 3>Yes, yeah, I didn't even notice that, but yeah, yeah, like.

0:48:25.480 --> 0:48:27.239
<v Speaker 2>The Sam Neil. And then and then even when we're

0:48:27.239 --> 0:48:32.480
<v Speaker 2>seeing the flashback of the miscarriage scene, she's wearing the

0:48:32.480 --> 0:48:35.319
<v Speaker 2>same dress. So it's like, this is just this is

0:48:35.400 --> 0:48:36.240
<v Speaker 2>just where it is.

0:48:36.520 --> 0:48:39.959
<v Speaker 3>Yes, and we're about to get there because you'll you'll

0:48:39.960 --> 0:48:41.240
<v Speaker 3>never guess what happens next.

0:48:41.280 --> 0:48:45.160
<v Speaker 2>But Anna returns home again and drag her.

0:48:47.200 --> 0:48:51.279
<v Speaker 3>Mark of course does not yet know anything about the

0:48:51.320 --> 0:48:55.640
<v Speaker 3>tentacle man in her new apartment, but he does see

0:48:55.680 --> 0:49:00.600
<v Speaker 3>her being very erratic and unstable, and he's trying to

0:49:00.680 --> 0:49:05.400
<v Speaker 3>understand what's going on. And then she recounts a memory

0:49:05.440 --> 0:49:09.120
<v Speaker 3>and we see this flashback where she's at a church

0:49:09.320 --> 0:49:12.840
<v Speaker 3>for a brief moment, looking at like Jesus on the cross,

0:49:13.680 --> 0:49:19.040
<v Speaker 3>and then she's in this like metro underground hallway kind

0:49:19.080 --> 0:49:24.800
<v Speaker 3>of thing. She's flinging groceries around. She might be possessed

0:49:25.440 --> 0:49:29.919
<v Speaker 3>or something. There's there's red and white and green goo

0:49:30.719 --> 0:49:32.719
<v Speaker 3>seeping out of her various orifices.

0:49:33.080 --> 0:49:35.160
<v Speaker 2>This she picked up a bunch of goo at the

0:49:35.200 --> 0:49:38.960
<v Speaker 2>grocery store and he goes.

0:49:38.600 --> 0:49:43.359
<v Speaker 3>Everywhere seeping out. And I didn't connect these dots upon

0:49:43.400 --> 0:49:47.239
<v Speaker 3>my first watch, but this is her having a miscarriage.

0:49:47.640 --> 0:49:49.759
<v Speaker 2>I believe, yes, yeah.

0:49:50.080 --> 0:49:55.239
<v Speaker 3>And so she tells this to Mark and I don't

0:49:55.280 --> 0:49:58.080
<v Speaker 3>even know how he reacts. I feel like he doesn't

0:49:58.080 --> 0:50:01.640
<v Speaker 3>really have much of a reaction, but he does call

0:50:02.160 --> 0:50:06.040
<v Speaker 3>Heinrich to be like, hey, this is Anna's new address

0:50:06.200 --> 0:50:08.880
<v Speaker 3>in case you want to go over there. So Heinrich

0:50:09.000 --> 0:50:13.440
<v Speaker 3>goes to this place and he and Anna are like

0:50:13.960 --> 0:50:17.480
<v Speaker 3>kissing and stuff, but he's also saying some very rapey things.

0:50:18.520 --> 0:50:22.879
<v Speaker 3>Then he finds the tentacle creature as well as some

0:50:23.280 --> 0:50:28.080
<v Speaker 3>human heads and other body parts in her refrigerator, and

0:50:28.120 --> 0:50:32.960
<v Speaker 3>he's like, oh my god, yeah, and then she stabs

0:50:33.040 --> 0:50:36.800
<v Speaker 3>him a little bit and he escapes and calls Mark.

0:50:37.320 --> 0:50:40.920
<v Speaker 3>So Mark goes to the apartment and the creature is

0:50:41.040 --> 0:50:45.040
<v Speaker 3>gone now, but Mark does see the heads in the

0:50:45.080 --> 0:50:47.839
<v Speaker 3>refrigerator and he freaks out and he goes to meet

0:50:47.920 --> 0:50:51.799
<v Speaker 3>up with Heinrich at a bar and they discuss what

0:50:51.880 --> 0:50:54.920
<v Speaker 3>they might do to help Anna, although Mark is like

0:50:55.400 --> 0:50:59.680
<v Speaker 3>mocking Heinrich and acting like he doesn't really believe him.

0:50:59.800 --> 0:51:06.480
<v Speaker 3>And then he kills Heinrich and blows up Anna's apartment

0:51:06.960 --> 0:51:10.120
<v Speaker 3>I guess to hide the evidence of her recent murders.

0:51:10.400 --> 0:51:13.319
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, Mark, Mark kind of goes joker mode towards the end,

0:51:13.480 --> 0:51:16.280
<v Speaker 2>where I'm like, I don't even know why he's doing

0:51:16.280 --> 0:51:20.920
<v Speaker 2>what he's doing, and he clearly doesn't die either, Like

0:51:21.560 --> 0:51:24.160
<v Speaker 2>he's just like, all right, how could we heighten? Okay,

0:51:24.160 --> 0:51:26.960
<v Speaker 2>I just killed the guy. It also like the meanest

0:51:26.960 --> 0:51:30.680
<v Speaker 2>way possible and okay there, which I mean, it's it's

0:51:30.760 --> 0:51:33.040
<v Speaker 2>fun to watch where he's like you can see the

0:51:33.040 --> 0:51:37.600
<v Speaker 2>little cogs in his like weak brain turning. He's like, okay, frigda,

0:51:37.640 --> 0:51:41.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna get on the toilet and in it. Like

0:51:41.239 --> 0:51:45.560
<v Speaker 2>he's just such a little fucking weasel. Yeah, yeah, he's

0:51:45.920 --> 0:51:48.279
<v Speaker 2>I don't like, I guess he does. He blow up

0:51:48.280 --> 0:51:51.000
<v Speaker 2>the apartment to like protect her, to cover her tracks.

0:51:51.000 --> 0:51:53.120
<v Speaker 2>Like it does seem like there is towards the end

0:51:53.280 --> 0:51:57.480
<v Speaker 2>this like not that they're stuck together. Clearly these clearly

0:51:57.719 --> 0:52:01.279
<v Speaker 2>these two aren't gonna it's not going to work out

0:52:01.400 --> 0:52:04.759
<v Speaker 2>between them. Yeah, but there is still this like and

0:52:04.800 --> 0:52:07.840
<v Speaker 2>I do feel like that is having divorced parents. I

0:52:07.840 --> 0:52:11.200
<v Speaker 2>feel like that is divorce vibes of like, even though

0:52:11.400 --> 0:52:14.319
<v Speaker 2>there's a part of me that like really hates this

0:52:14.560 --> 0:52:17.480
<v Speaker 2>person and resents them and we've been through all this

0:52:17.520 --> 0:52:22.440
<v Speaker 2>awful stuff, I still feel this like compulsion to protect

0:52:22.800 --> 0:52:25.239
<v Speaker 2>them to some extent. I'm not saying that it's like

0:52:25.480 --> 0:52:28.200
<v Speaker 2>he's actually an amazing guy, but like that is an

0:52:28.200 --> 0:52:30.360
<v Speaker 2>extreme act that you're sort of led to believe no

0:52:30.360 --> 0:52:33.759
<v Speaker 2>one else would take for Anna, because why would you?

0:52:34.600 --> 0:52:37.520
<v Speaker 1>He does say, and I never caught this before, but

0:52:37.680 --> 0:52:40.759
<v Speaker 1>and I think it's just after they've after he's like

0:52:40.840 --> 0:52:43.080
<v Speaker 1>they've I don't remember what part it is. There's so

0:52:43.160 --> 0:52:45.359
<v Speaker 1>much coming and going, as you said, but there's one

0:52:45.400 --> 0:52:47.680
<v Speaker 1>part in their apartment where she's about to leave and

0:52:47.719 --> 0:52:50.799
<v Speaker 1>he says, you are all I have. And I think

0:52:50.840 --> 0:52:55.160
<v Speaker 1>that that's why, because he is so hell bent. I mean,

0:52:55.160 --> 0:52:57.600
<v Speaker 1>all the men are so hell bent on trying to

0:52:57.640 --> 0:53:01.480
<v Speaker 1>possess her and trying to like make.

0:53:01.360 --> 0:53:02.439
<v Speaker 3>Her see them.

0:53:03.920 --> 0:53:07.879
<v Speaker 1>You know that she just keeps slipping away from him,

0:53:07.880 --> 0:53:09.680
<v Speaker 1>and all all he can do is just try and

0:53:09.719 --> 0:53:12.520
<v Speaker 1>protect her in the in the event that maybe she

0:53:12.640 --> 0:53:17.080
<v Speaker 1>will allow herself to be possessed by him. Yeah, that's

0:53:17.200 --> 0:53:18.160
<v Speaker 1>all I can think of.

0:53:20.000 --> 0:53:22.600
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, that's that was my read as well.

0:53:22.719 --> 0:53:26.160
<v Speaker 2>Also, it's just like it's just I like seeing sam

0:53:26.280 --> 0:53:29.160
<v Speaker 2>Neil scoot around in that little bomber jacket. I like

0:53:29.239 --> 0:53:31.600
<v Speaker 2>it when he gets on his little Viking, he zooms

0:53:31.640 --> 0:53:34.600
<v Speaker 2>zooms away. I'm like, it's it's just so wild. He's

0:53:34.719 --> 0:53:36.799
<v Speaker 2>he's never been hot to me, but when he's like

0:53:36.920 --> 0:53:40.040
<v Speaker 2>blowing stuff up and he's in his little jacket, yeah,

0:53:41.719 --> 0:53:43.960
<v Speaker 2>you're like, I love it.

0:53:44.400 --> 0:53:49.200
<v Speaker 3>Right, And then he comes back home to find Margie

0:53:49.320 --> 0:53:52.560
<v Speaker 3>badly wounded. It seems like Anna had stabbed her.

0:53:53.480 --> 0:53:57.120
<v Speaker 2>Their best friends, so guys their best their best friends.

0:53:57.480 --> 0:53:58.879
<v Speaker 2>They do anything for each other.

0:53:59.000 --> 0:54:02.960
<v Speaker 3>There's a reference to Margie saw it or saw something.

0:54:03.080 --> 0:54:06.000
<v Speaker 3>I guess she saw the tentacle creature and that's why

0:54:06.160 --> 0:54:11.400
<v Speaker 3>Anna killed her. Anna helps Mark get cleaned up, and

0:54:11.440 --> 0:54:15.600
<v Speaker 3>then they have sex, and now they're like, okay, we

0:54:15.640 --> 0:54:18.600
<v Speaker 3>have to cover up Margie's death and get the hell

0:54:18.640 --> 0:54:22.759
<v Speaker 3>out of here. So Mark puts Margie's body in the

0:54:22.760 --> 0:54:25.600
<v Speaker 3>trunk of his car. But when he comes back inside,

0:54:26.160 --> 0:54:31.440
<v Speaker 3>he discovers Anna having loud, passionate sex with the tentacle creature,

0:54:32.640 --> 0:54:38.040
<v Speaker 3>and he's just sort of like, okay, again. His reactions

0:54:38.040 --> 0:54:42.879
<v Speaker 3>to things are really bizarre and hard to understand, and

0:54:43.000 --> 0:54:47.239
<v Speaker 3>he leaves again and pays a visit to Heinrich's mother,

0:54:47.480 --> 0:54:51.600
<v Speaker 3>who realizes that Heinrich is dead and she dies by

0:54:51.600 --> 0:54:53.480
<v Speaker 3>suicide and You're.

0:54:53.320 --> 0:54:58.320
<v Speaker 2>Like, what what I mean? That's okay? So there I

0:54:59.040 --> 0:55:02.480
<v Speaker 2>was like, Okay, so this is this because there's always

0:55:02.480 --> 0:55:04.120
<v Speaker 2>just a chance for this movie that this is just

0:55:04.160 --> 0:55:07.720
<v Speaker 2>something that happens, because why not, because it could happen,

0:55:07.800 --> 0:55:10.520
<v Speaker 2>so why not make it happen. But it also felt like, well,

0:55:10.680 --> 0:55:14.120
<v Speaker 2>is that the movie's attempt to make some sort of

0:55:14.160 --> 0:55:18.799
<v Speaker 2>statement on both faith and motherhood of like is this

0:55:21.800 --> 0:55:23.960
<v Speaker 2>what was he saying with that? I don't know.

0:55:24.440 --> 0:55:28.480
<v Speaker 3>I really don't know. Something I've been reflecting on recently

0:55:28.800 --> 0:55:32.960
<v Speaker 3>after having gone to film school twice. Not that I

0:55:32.960 --> 0:55:35.920
<v Speaker 3>would ever mention that, but especially in my undergrad where

0:55:35.960 --> 0:55:37.920
<v Speaker 3>I took a lot of film production classes, and then

0:55:37.960 --> 0:55:41.439
<v Speaker 3>I took at least one in my grad program, and

0:55:42.080 --> 0:55:46.279
<v Speaker 3>like people who weren't writers, but people who were aspiring directors,

0:55:47.239 --> 0:55:49.640
<v Speaker 3>and like, we're more focused on kind of the production

0:55:49.760 --> 0:55:52.640
<v Speaker 3>side of things versus the development and writing side of things.

0:55:53.239 --> 0:55:56.160
<v Speaker 3>They'd be on set shooting something and they would be like, Okay,

0:55:56.400 --> 0:55:59.360
<v Speaker 3>in this scene, this random thing is going to happen,

0:55:59.560 --> 0:56:02.799
<v Speaker 3>and then character is gonna do this wacky thing, and

0:56:02.880 --> 0:56:06.360
<v Speaker 3>I'd be like, but why, and they would say, because

0:56:06.400 --> 0:56:09.880
<v Speaker 3>it looks cool, yeah, And I'm like, but it. And

0:56:09.920 --> 0:56:13.319
<v Speaker 3>I think a lot of filmmakers just kind of make

0:56:13.400 --> 0:56:18.000
<v Speaker 3>weird choices that don't necessarily make logical narrative sense because

0:56:18.280 --> 0:56:20.239
<v Speaker 3>they're like they're like, I could do that because I

0:56:20.280 --> 0:56:22.359
<v Speaker 3>can because it looks cool.

0:56:22.520 --> 0:56:24.480
<v Speaker 2>And this is the kind of vibes driven movie where

0:56:24.480 --> 0:56:27.280
<v Speaker 2>that would happen. It's just like, again, there's I guess

0:56:27.320 --> 0:56:31.480
<v Speaker 2>similar to Bob Dying, which I've now seen this movie

0:56:31.520 --> 0:56:35.799
<v Speaker 2>three times, didn't know, didn't know Bob died, but that

0:56:35.880 --> 0:56:37.839
<v Speaker 2>you're like this, yeah, like this could be a very

0:56:37.880 --> 0:56:40.560
<v Speaker 2>intentional choice that is just like kind of unclear or

0:56:40.760 --> 0:56:43.359
<v Speaker 2>like you're saying, Caitlin, it might just be like, let's

0:56:43.440 --> 0:56:46.520
<v Speaker 2>let's make sure every woman's dead before, right, Yeah, we

0:56:46.600 --> 0:56:50.360
<v Speaker 2>got to make sure every woman we've met it is dead, right. Yeah.

0:56:51.160 --> 0:56:53.239
<v Speaker 1>What I got out of it was, again, he's just

0:56:53.280 --> 0:56:56.080
<v Speaker 1>trying to make fun of Heinrich as like a mama's

0:56:56.120 --> 0:57:00.440
<v Speaker 1>boy type of thing and have this this seems like

0:57:00.480 --> 0:57:04.160
<v Speaker 1>this woman's only reason for living was her son, Like

0:57:04.200 --> 0:57:05.320
<v Speaker 1>she had to live.

0:57:05.640 --> 0:57:09.759
<v Speaker 2>Just like the real tragedy, right, and so.

0:57:11.320 --> 0:57:13.160
<v Speaker 1>This is a little bit cute, see, but like she

0:57:13.280 --> 0:57:16.000
<v Speaker 1>dies and the window opens, like her soul's gone. Like

0:57:16.600 --> 0:57:20.480
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, it's just like it's such a weird uh.

0:57:20.800 --> 0:57:24.720
<v Speaker 1>I guess it's this one more of those like religious.

0:57:23.720 --> 0:57:25.080
<v Speaker 3>Scenes for this film.

0:57:25.280 --> 0:57:29.240
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, they're kind of just scattered throughout. Yeah, I didn't

0:57:29.240 --> 0:57:31.480
<v Speaker 1>make too much of it. Okay, it could be a

0:57:31.560 --> 0:57:35.479
<v Speaker 1>throwaway scene, but it could also be that I don't know, if.

0:57:35.440 --> 0:57:38.760
<v Speaker 2>We don't know, it's so weird because everything happens. I mean,

0:57:38.800 --> 0:57:41.000
<v Speaker 2>it's part of why I really like it. Everything happens

0:57:41.040 --> 0:57:44.280
<v Speaker 2>with the same amount of intensity. But like it could

0:57:44.320 --> 0:57:46.920
<v Speaker 2>be either very meaningful or just be like, well, I

0:57:46.920 --> 0:57:51.480
<v Speaker 2>don't know whatever likes right, Just like the long take

0:57:51.560 --> 0:57:54.120
<v Speaker 2>between like Anna looking at Jesus, You're like you could

0:57:54.160 --> 0:57:57.520
<v Speaker 2>either see like that is the cryptex to understanding the movie,

0:57:57.680 --> 0:57:58.640
<v Speaker 2>or it might just be like.

0:57:59.120 --> 0:58:01.120
<v Speaker 3>We shot it and we decided to put it in

0:58:01.160 --> 0:58:01.600
<v Speaker 3>the movie.

0:58:01.800 --> 0:58:03.840
<v Speaker 2>She says faith and then she looks at a crucifix.

0:58:03.920 --> 0:58:06.120
<v Speaker 2>Later thoughts like right.

0:58:06.320 --> 0:58:10.080
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, right, right, right, who does Okay, so where are

0:58:10.120 --> 0:58:16.680
<v Speaker 3>we The next day, Mark's former spy bosses slash colleagues

0:58:17.160 --> 0:58:20.560
<v Speaker 3>approach him and there's a shootout on the street. So

0:58:20.640 --> 0:58:22.720
<v Speaker 3>it becomes kind of an entirely different movie for a

0:58:22.800 --> 0:58:27.680
<v Speaker 3>few minutes, where now it's like a spy thriller. And

0:58:27.880 --> 0:58:32.760
<v Speaker 3>Mark escapes and heads into a building all bloody and injured,

0:58:33.440 --> 0:58:36.360
<v Speaker 3>and Anna shows up and she's like, let me introduce

0:58:36.400 --> 0:58:41.560
<v Speaker 3>you to my friend, and it's a doppelganger of Mark,

0:58:42.680 --> 0:58:45.040
<v Speaker 3>also played by Sam Neil, except he has a different

0:58:45.040 --> 0:58:48.800
<v Speaker 3>eye color, similar to how Anna's doppelganger has a sim

0:58:49.160 --> 0:58:52.720
<v Speaker 3>has a different eye color, and so I guess this

0:58:52.920 --> 0:58:57.240
<v Speaker 3>is the tentacle creature, this doppelganger of Mark that has

0:58:57.320 --> 0:59:03.560
<v Speaker 3>been slowly transforming and evolving into the doppelganger. And Mark

0:59:03.640 --> 0:59:06.640
<v Speaker 3>is just sort of like again weird reaction. He's just

0:59:06.680 --> 0:59:11.560
<v Speaker 3>sort of like, oh okay. And then the spy dudes

0:59:11.680 --> 0:59:15.760
<v Speaker 3>catch back up with Mark and shoot him, and Anna

0:59:16.600 --> 0:59:21.480
<v Speaker 3>the doppelganger escapes. Cut back to Little Bob and his

0:59:21.560 --> 0:59:25.120
<v Speaker 3>teacher Helen is there as his new guardian question Mark,

0:59:26.080 --> 0:59:29.880
<v Speaker 3>and Mark Stoppelganger shows up at the door and he's

0:59:29.920 --> 0:59:30.760
<v Speaker 3>kind of banging on the.

0:59:30.720 --> 0:59:34.320
<v Speaker 2>Door like yeah, he's climbing up the door, and then

0:59:34.440 --> 0:59:37.400
<v Speaker 2>and Bob is afraid and he goes in the bathtub

0:59:37.560 --> 0:59:40.040
<v Speaker 2>and presumably dies there.

0:59:40.720 --> 0:59:43.840
<v Speaker 3>And then and then a bunch of bombs start raining

0:59:43.880 --> 0:59:45.600
<v Speaker 3>down outside as if like.

0:59:45.600 --> 0:59:48.080
<v Speaker 2>Which is like it's almost like this movie takes place

0:59:48.120 --> 0:59:49.360
<v Speaker 2>next to the Berlin Wall.

0:59:51.560 --> 0:59:54.440
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and that's the end of the movie. So everyone

0:59:54.520 --> 0:59:55.400
<v Speaker 3>gets it right.

0:59:56.400 --> 0:59:58.680
<v Speaker 2>Makes sense to I mean, like the Doppelgangers are the

0:59:58.720 --> 1:00:04.600
<v Speaker 2>last one standing. So that feels like a clear something.

1:00:06.200 --> 1:00:08.040
<v Speaker 3>Or an unclear or something. I don't know.

1:00:08.480 --> 1:00:11.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't know the last week, last thing before we

1:00:11.320 --> 1:00:13.880
<v Speaker 2>got a break. I guess I forgot there. There's like

1:00:13.920 --> 1:00:16.600
<v Speaker 2>I think my favorite I mean, well it's it's the

1:00:17.280 --> 1:00:21.120
<v Speaker 2>tunnel scene is like the most elevated, Like that performance

1:00:21.200 --> 1:00:23.640
<v Speaker 2>is like unmatching, but like a smaller moment that I

1:00:23.680 --> 1:00:27.480
<v Speaker 2>really loved on this viewing in particular is like you

1:00:27.560 --> 1:00:30.600
<v Speaker 2>really don't feel Sam Neil give up on the relationship

1:00:30.880 --> 1:00:34.600
<v Speaker 2>until he sees an octopus fucking his wife, like you

1:00:34.680 --> 1:00:38.840
<v Speaker 2>can see. Uh, there's like there's just like, Okay, I

1:00:38.880 --> 1:00:44.040
<v Speaker 2>get it, this relationship will not move forward, and even

1:00:44.040 --> 1:00:46.040
<v Speaker 2>though he's like his character is a piece of shit, right,

1:00:46.080 --> 1:00:48.440
<v Speaker 2>but like I I've in that moment I could relate

1:00:48.480 --> 1:00:50.600
<v Speaker 2>with that character where it like it takes something so

1:00:50.800 --> 1:00:53.960
<v Speaker 2>extreme for you to accept like, okay, so this is

1:00:54.000 --> 1:00:56.800
<v Speaker 2>a got it, got it, But it takes it takes

1:00:57.800 --> 1:01:00.400
<v Speaker 2>a cryptid uh fucking your wife in front of you

1:01:00.600 --> 1:01:03.080
<v Speaker 2>to be like, so she's actually not interested in me?

1:01:03.360 --> 1:01:06.400
<v Speaker 2>Got it? I just love that moment.

1:01:07.320 --> 1:01:10.280
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's pretty great. All right, let's take a quick

1:01:10.320 --> 1:01:24.760
<v Speaker 3>break and we'll come back to discuss. And we're back, Well,

1:01:25.120 --> 1:01:27.040
<v Speaker 3>what should we talk about, Alicia?

1:01:27.280 --> 1:01:29.080
<v Speaker 2>We're going to kick it to you. Where would you

1:01:29.200 --> 1:01:31.480
<v Speaker 2>like to start the discussion? Is there anything jumping out

1:01:31.520 --> 1:01:32.440
<v Speaker 2>to you on this viewing?

1:01:33.080 --> 1:01:36.200
<v Speaker 1>Oh man, Well, we did talk a little bit about

1:01:36.200 --> 1:01:38.480
<v Speaker 1>like here and there the two sisters.

1:01:42.320 --> 1:01:46.080
<v Speaker 3>Well, okay, there's a part where she's like, yeah, I

1:01:46.200 --> 1:01:52.600
<v Speaker 3>miscarried Chance, Like the miscarriage scene. It implies that Chance

1:01:52.760 --> 1:01:58.640
<v Speaker 3>is gone. But Faith is the tentacle creature that she's

1:01:58.760 --> 1:02:02.280
<v Speaker 3>also having sex with that she maybe gave birth to.

1:02:02.600 --> 1:02:04.920
<v Speaker 3>So yes, we don't know.

1:02:05.000 --> 1:02:08.200
<v Speaker 2>I'll be honest. There the thing when things get that

1:02:08.760 --> 1:02:11.439
<v Speaker 2>like it's why I can't I mean whatever, it's why

1:02:11.480 --> 1:02:13.640
<v Speaker 2>I can't do Like the Bible where it's like but

1:02:13.760 --> 1:02:18.040
<v Speaker 2>things get that like bonk you over the head, like symbolic.

1:02:18.200 --> 1:02:19.919
<v Speaker 2>My brain just kind of switches off.

1:02:20.480 --> 1:02:21.160
<v Speaker 3>Yes, and like.

1:02:21.280 --> 1:02:24.680
<v Speaker 2>She Okay, so we're witnessing the miscarriage of an idea.

1:02:26.960 --> 1:02:31.040
<v Speaker 2>Chance is goo? We don't, Yeah, but yeah.

1:02:31.080 --> 1:02:33.560
<v Speaker 3>What was your take on that discussion of like the

1:02:33.680 --> 1:02:37.040
<v Speaker 3>sisters and those metaphors.

1:02:37.760 --> 1:02:39.920
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and I think I think she was kind of

1:02:39.960 --> 1:02:44.760
<v Speaker 1>talking about her and her relationships and responsibilities and things

1:02:44.880 --> 1:02:50.200
<v Speaker 1>like that. I do feel like the creature is her

1:02:50.320 --> 1:02:55.240
<v Speaker 1>shot at creating something that she she thinks like, nothing

1:02:55.280 --> 1:02:58.280
<v Speaker 1>has satisfied me in the past, I must create it.

1:02:59.120 --> 1:03:02.120
<v Speaker 1>But then and behold, what she creates is the exact

1:03:02.160 --> 1:03:05.560
<v Speaker 1>thing she already has, but in a more divine sense,

1:03:06.720 --> 1:03:09.960
<v Speaker 1>because when we look at the way that there are

1:03:10.080 --> 1:03:12.360
<v Speaker 1>subtle nods to the fact that the creature could be

1:03:12.440 --> 1:03:18.560
<v Speaker 1>God or a devil disguising as God, because Emmanuel is

1:03:18.600 --> 1:03:22.200
<v Speaker 1>the first the name of the first detective that comes

1:03:22.440 --> 1:03:26.280
<v Speaker 1>into the room, and Emmanuel means God with us, and

1:03:27.320 --> 1:03:29.920
<v Speaker 1>you know, every single one of those dudes who sees

1:03:29.960 --> 1:03:34.200
<v Speaker 1>the creature goes my God. And Heinrich also becomes temporarily blind,

1:03:34.840 --> 1:03:38.560
<v Speaker 1>So there is some sort of divine He's a divine

1:03:38.680 --> 1:03:41.800
<v Speaker 1>entity that will go on to destroy the world in

1:03:41.840 --> 1:03:45.400
<v Speaker 1>a very misogynistic biblical reading. You could say she's the

1:03:45.440 --> 1:03:49.520
<v Speaker 1>horror of Babylon giving birth to you know, I don't think.

1:03:49.800 --> 1:03:52.040
<v Speaker 1>I don't think that that's not true.

1:03:52.120 --> 1:03:54.080
<v Speaker 2>I haven't thought about the horror of Babylon in a

1:03:54.080 --> 1:03:56.000
<v Speaker 2>long time since shout out to her.

1:03:56.200 --> 1:04:00.919
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yeah, right, But I don't think that what's happening here.

1:04:01.000 --> 1:04:05.960
<v Speaker 1>I think it's more just feminine agency and the feminine

1:04:05.960 --> 1:04:08.440
<v Speaker 1>feminine ability to create, because a lot of people when

1:04:08.440 --> 1:04:11.040
<v Speaker 1>they see the monster, they think that all the white

1:04:11.040 --> 1:04:13.080
<v Speaker 1>stuff is sperm, and I think it's milk.

1:04:13.680 --> 1:04:16.200
<v Speaker 2>I think she Yeah, I give out in this milk.

1:04:16.720 --> 1:04:17.480
<v Speaker 2>Yeah right.

1:04:17.560 --> 1:04:20.040
<v Speaker 1>It's it feels like she is giving her all to this,

1:04:20.320 --> 1:04:26.040
<v Speaker 1>including her own bodily fluids and her orgasms and like

1:04:26.160 --> 1:04:30.480
<v Speaker 1>every bit of herself her responsibility, and it's sort of incestuous,

1:04:30.520 --> 1:04:34.560
<v Speaker 1>which is also kind of weird, right, Yeah.

1:04:34.280 --> 1:04:38.600
<v Speaker 2>Which my understanding is that Zulowski uh does not mind

1:04:39.000 --> 1:04:42.040
<v Speaker 2>throwing in some incest into his work. It seems like

1:04:42.080 --> 1:04:45.880
<v Speaker 2>a consistent theme from what I've gathered. Yeah, I agree.

1:04:45.880 --> 1:04:48.040
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I think what's so tricky in the way,

1:04:48.080 --> 1:04:50.360
<v Speaker 2>and I'm sure that we're going to encounter this over

1:04:50.400 --> 1:04:53.840
<v Speaker 2>and over, is that like so often it really In

1:04:54.320 --> 1:04:57.320
<v Speaker 2>what I was reading about this, it's presented as like,

1:04:57.640 --> 1:05:01.800
<v Speaker 2>you know that Mark and and are sort of two

1:05:01.840 --> 1:05:03.240
<v Speaker 2>sides of the same coin in some way, and I

1:05:03.280 --> 1:05:05.400
<v Speaker 2>feel like the plot bears that out to some extent,

1:05:05.440 --> 1:05:09.560
<v Speaker 2>where they both create doppelgangers that are idealized versions of

1:05:09.560 --> 1:05:13.080
<v Speaker 2>the other. If we're if we're to think that Helen

1:05:13.240 --> 1:05:16.480
<v Speaker 2>is like not quite real or like there's so much

1:05:16.520 --> 1:05:20.760
<v Speaker 2>projection going on from March's side. But what I do, yeah, yeah,

1:05:20.840 --> 1:05:22.840
<v Speaker 2>But what I find tricky about like the way that

1:05:22.880 --> 1:05:24.920
<v Speaker 2>I've seen this movie written about and I have it right,

1:05:25.000 --> 1:05:28.240
<v Speaker 2>I want to read the book you have had. I

1:05:28.240 --> 1:05:33.480
<v Speaker 2>didn't encounter it, but that like you know, it's it's

1:05:33.520 --> 1:05:36.560
<v Speaker 2>it's hard because it's like we're presented with this dynamic

1:05:36.600 --> 1:05:40.120
<v Speaker 2>that I don't even know if Zolowski understands, because he's

1:05:40.320 --> 1:05:44.160
<v Speaker 2>clearly sorting through some very personal shit and would continue to.

1:05:44.280 --> 1:05:47.680
<v Speaker 2>I saw that much later in his life. Towards the

1:05:47.800 --> 1:05:52.160
<v Speaker 2>end of his life. Subsequent romantic partner sued him for

1:05:53.200 --> 1:05:55.920
<v Speaker 2>oversharing about their sex life and about her life in

1:05:56.080 --> 1:05:59.120
<v Speaker 2>a work of fiction quote unquote, and he lost that

1:05:59.200 --> 1:06:01.640
<v Speaker 2>case because she was right. So we know that a

1:06:01.640 --> 1:06:03.680
<v Speaker 2>lot of this is coming from a personal place. But

1:06:04.240 --> 1:06:08.120
<v Speaker 2>I can't tell on the Zulawski side, if he like

1:06:08.160 --> 1:06:11.560
<v Speaker 2>he knows that they are both deeply flawed and they

1:06:11.560 --> 1:06:16.240
<v Speaker 2>are both obsessed with control. I don't know that he

1:06:16.400 --> 1:06:21.400
<v Speaker 2>fully sees Mark as abusive as he really is. That's

1:06:21.400 --> 1:06:23.400
<v Speaker 2>why it's like, I find some of the writing around

1:06:23.400 --> 1:06:26.720
<v Speaker 2>it tricky, although I don't really have a solution for

1:06:26.800 --> 1:06:30.680
<v Speaker 2>it other than to constantly kind of qualify, like, yes,

1:06:30.880 --> 1:06:35.640
<v Speaker 2>Anna is a deeply flawed person. She is a negligent parent.

1:06:35.920 --> 1:06:38.840
<v Speaker 2>She is like she is a very very deeply flawed person.

1:06:39.160 --> 1:06:42.880
<v Speaker 2>But she is also clearly subject to horrific abuse and

1:06:42.960 --> 1:06:49.360
<v Speaker 2>control by her husband from moment one. Yes, and the

1:06:49.440 --> 1:06:51.320
<v Speaker 2>violence I mean, correct me, if I'm right, All of

1:06:51.320 --> 1:06:55.000
<v Speaker 2>the violence we see from Anna towards Mark is reactionary.

1:06:55.200 --> 1:06:59.720
<v Speaker 2>It's not She is not the aggressor, and it's like

1:07:00.120 --> 1:07:02.520
<v Speaker 2>Mark is. And I do think, I guess, to this

1:07:02.560 --> 1:07:06.520
<v Speaker 2>movie's credit that we do see, while we do see

1:07:06.760 --> 1:07:09.600
<v Speaker 2>a lot of physical abuse coming from Mark, particularly in

1:07:09.640 --> 1:07:13.000
<v Speaker 2>the first half of the movie, I feel like, I

1:07:13.200 --> 1:07:15.240
<v Speaker 2>don't you don't I mean, you see this unfortunately a

1:07:15.240 --> 1:07:19.360
<v Speaker 2>lot in movies, because it happens a lot in life.

1:07:17.600 --> 1:07:17.680
<v Speaker 3>But.

1:07:19.160 --> 1:07:21.960
<v Speaker 2>I do feel like it appropriately and maybe this is

1:07:21.960 --> 1:07:25.280
<v Speaker 2>the Sam Neil performance. He seems like a coward when

1:07:25.520 --> 1:07:29.120
<v Speaker 2>he is attacking her, And I don't know like how

1:07:29.160 --> 1:07:33.760
<v Speaker 2>to exactly, but like you can feel that this abuse

1:07:33.840 --> 1:07:36.880
<v Speaker 2>comes from a place of cowardice and self hatred, as

1:07:36.920 --> 1:07:39.880
<v Speaker 2>so much abuse does, in a way that doesn't justify

1:07:39.920 --> 1:07:42.240
<v Speaker 2>it or excuse it. I guess I'm more kind of

1:07:42.240 --> 1:07:44.880
<v Speaker 2>inclined to give that to sam Neil because it's so

1:07:45.400 --> 1:07:49.000
<v Speaker 2>like it's awful to watch, because it feels in a

1:07:49.040 --> 1:07:52.720
<v Speaker 2>movie where everything feels unreal, that element to me felt

1:07:52.840 --> 1:07:53.880
<v Speaker 2>very real.

1:07:54.560 --> 1:07:57.080
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I was gonna say. The thing I didn't know

1:07:57.120 --> 1:07:59.760
<v Speaker 1>about it until I read this book by Alison Taylor

1:08:00.160 --> 1:08:05.320
<v Speaker 1>is that the slapping was insisted upon by a Johnny

1:08:05.400 --> 1:08:07.920
<v Speaker 1>and by Zulawski, and he did not want to do it.

1:08:08.360 --> 1:08:12.720
<v Speaker 1>He sam Neil, and both him and Isabelle and Johnny

1:08:12.720 --> 1:08:16.439
<v Speaker 1>were like abused by Zulowski during the course of filming

1:08:16.479 --> 1:08:20.400
<v Speaker 1>this almost like in a Kubrickian Shelley Duvall way. Yes,

1:08:20.760 --> 1:08:23.720
<v Speaker 1>there's I wanted to share it because, Yeah, Johnny has

1:08:23.720 --> 1:08:26.160
<v Speaker 1>talked about it more, which I guess makes sense because

1:08:26.200 --> 1:08:29.479
<v Speaker 1>I'm presumably she was subject to more of it. Yeah,

1:08:29.479 --> 1:08:32.280
<v Speaker 1>because yeah, we kend in spite of the fact that

1:08:32.320 --> 1:08:36.720
<v Speaker 1>I really like this movie, Zulawski as a person is

1:08:37.800 --> 1:08:41.080
<v Speaker 1>I mean, he's a scumbag. He's an interesting scumbag who

1:08:41.400 --> 1:08:44.160
<v Speaker 1>was subject to a lot of political violet and we

1:08:44.200 --> 1:08:46.479
<v Speaker 1>can talk about that side of his life too, because

1:08:46.520 --> 1:08:49.080
<v Speaker 1>like it wasn't like he wasn't wronged by the state

1:08:49.160 --> 1:08:51.720
<v Speaker 1>time and time again. But in terms of the way

1:08:51.800 --> 1:08:54.880
<v Speaker 1>he approached it feels like a very seventies eighties male

1:08:54.960 --> 1:08:57.800
<v Speaker 1>o tour thing that we fortunately.

1:08:57.479 --> 1:08:59.759
<v Speaker 2>Have talked about so much on this show, like Kubrick

1:08:59.840 --> 1:09:03.720
<v Speaker 2>is a big example, but this is another one where

1:09:03.760 --> 1:09:06.600
<v Speaker 2>it feels like, weirdly, David Lynch is the outlier in

1:09:06.640 --> 1:09:09.920
<v Speaker 2>this group of directors because actors really like working with

1:09:10.000 --> 1:09:12.080
<v Speaker 2>him and will work with him time and time again.

1:09:12.160 --> 1:09:15.559
<v Speaker 2>Where Isabella Johnny points out, have you ever seen an

1:09:15.560 --> 1:09:19.880
<v Speaker 2>actress that's worked with him twice? Because I haven't. Yeah,

1:09:19.920 --> 1:09:23.719
<v Speaker 2>I wanted to share some of the quotes she's given

1:09:23.760 --> 1:09:26.800
<v Speaker 2>for this, mostly in the last five years or so,

1:09:27.600 --> 1:09:30.719
<v Speaker 2>because she's still with us and working, as is Sam Neil,

1:09:30.840 --> 1:09:33.519
<v Speaker 2>who by all accounts seems like a seems like a

1:09:33.560 --> 1:09:35.960
<v Speaker 2>mench I kind of want to read his memoir, right.

1:09:36.680 --> 1:09:39.880
<v Speaker 2>The most significant thing I think that comes up, or

1:09:40.000 --> 1:09:43.439
<v Speaker 2>came up prior to Johnny giving these interviews about five

1:09:43.520 --> 1:09:47.040
<v Speaker 2>years ago, is that Zulowski would almost like wear as

1:09:47.040 --> 1:09:50.719
<v Speaker 2>a badge of honor that Isabella Johnny was in such

1:09:50.840 --> 1:09:56.520
<v Speaker 2>a bad mental state after this movie that she attempted suicide.

1:09:57.240 --> 1:09:59.640
<v Speaker 2>This is something that is I guess mentioned in the

1:10:00.680 --> 1:10:05.599
<v Speaker 2>commentary track on a release of Possession, where I mean,

1:10:06.080 --> 1:10:08.080
<v Speaker 2>I have not heard him say this, but you can

1:10:08.120 --> 1:10:11.200
<v Speaker 2>feel it. So here's he said when she saw the

1:10:11.240 --> 1:10:14.000
<v Speaker 2>film after she committed suicide because she never wanted to

1:10:14.040 --> 1:10:16.600
<v Speaker 2>see the dailies, so she really didn't know. How do

1:10:16.680 --> 1:10:19.760
<v Speaker 2>we look at her? And she committed suicide. But being

1:10:19.880 --> 1:10:23.880
<v Speaker 2>Isabelle A Johnny, you must understand in Europe, isabel A Johnny.

1:10:23.560 --> 1:10:24.080
<v Speaker 3>Is a diva.

1:10:24.200 --> 1:10:26.320
<v Speaker 2>She's a big thing. She went to the bathroom and

1:10:26.360 --> 1:10:28.439
<v Speaker 2>she cut her wrists with a G two machine raiser,

1:10:28.520 --> 1:10:31.080
<v Speaker 2>which cuts you half a millimeter of skin and not

1:10:31.200 --> 1:10:35.920
<v Speaker 2>much deeper. So he's both bragging that he drove which

1:10:35.960 --> 1:10:38.360
<v Speaker 2>I do think a lot of directors of this ilk

1:10:38.920 --> 1:10:41.200
<v Speaker 2>where is a badge of honor of like this? And

1:10:41.240 --> 1:10:43.400
<v Speaker 2>I think we see this, I think the most recent

1:10:43.479 --> 1:10:46.600
<v Speaker 2>movie where you really, I mean Jared Letto tried to

1:10:46.720 --> 1:10:49.400
<v Speaker 2>but it did work. But like Heath Ledger's performance is

1:10:49.400 --> 1:10:51.960
<v Speaker 2>brought up a lot of like a performance that brought

1:10:52.000 --> 1:10:55.000
<v Speaker 2>you to the brink of your own sanity, when that

1:10:55.160 --> 1:10:58.200
<v Speaker 2>is like not something to be happy about and just

1:10:58.240 --> 1:11:00.720
<v Speaker 2>indicates that the production is not what it needs to

1:11:00.760 --> 1:11:03.720
<v Speaker 2>do to protect their performers. Right. But not only is

1:11:03.760 --> 1:11:09.040
<v Speaker 2>like Zulowski bragging that this movie he created a film

1:11:09.160 --> 1:11:12.640
<v Speaker 2>so toxic that it was an active threat to his

1:11:12.760 --> 1:11:17.120
<v Speaker 2>lead actor, he also in the same breath dismisses it

1:11:17.160 --> 1:11:19.400
<v Speaker 2>as like, well, she's difficult to work with and she's

1:11:19.439 --> 1:11:22.160
<v Speaker 2>a drama queen and she actually it wasn't actually an

1:11:22.200 --> 1:11:24.360
<v Speaker 2>attempt on her life. It basically he's saying, like she's

1:11:24.439 --> 1:11:27.240
<v Speaker 2>just trying to get attention because she's a diva, which

1:11:27.280 --> 1:11:30.400
<v Speaker 2>is just like you know, in a paragraph, that's who

1:11:30.439 --> 1:11:33.200
<v Speaker 2>this guy is, right, Like, this is a guy who

1:11:33.360 --> 1:11:38.400
<v Speaker 2>is like, you know, making this very you could argue

1:11:38.960 --> 1:11:43.160
<v Speaker 2>petty movie about his own divorce about a working actress

1:11:43.280 --> 1:11:46.400
<v Speaker 2>who was still working at the time, and not that

1:11:46.439 --> 1:11:48.920
<v Speaker 2>he's not entitled. You know, everyone's entitled to their divorce

1:11:49.000 --> 1:11:54.919
<v Speaker 2>movie right, like the Brude the brute marriage story whatever. Everyone, Yeah,

1:11:54.960 --> 1:11:58.960
<v Speaker 2>like you can make your divorce movie regardless of gender, whatever.

1:11:59.080 --> 1:12:03.160
<v Speaker 2>But like, I don't know, there is this meanness that

1:12:03.240 --> 1:12:06.160
<v Speaker 2>you feel in this movie. And at least I guess

1:12:06.160 --> 1:12:08.679
<v Speaker 2>all I can say is that he doesn't spare Mark

1:12:09.000 --> 1:12:12.240
<v Speaker 2>in that appraisal. It isn't like, oh no, poor Mark,

1:12:12.320 --> 1:12:16.000
<v Speaker 2>Anna was so mean, Like they're both awful. But anyways,

1:12:16.640 --> 1:12:22.040
<v Speaker 2>Isabella Johnny responds to this because Zelawski died ten years

1:12:22.080 --> 1:12:26.840
<v Speaker 2>ago or so, she said in various interviews. His movies

1:12:26.840 --> 1:12:29.240
<v Speaker 2>are very special, but they totally focus on women as

1:12:29.280 --> 1:12:31.639
<v Speaker 2>if they are Lili's. It was quite an amazing film

1:12:31.680 --> 1:12:33.880
<v Speaker 2>to do, but I got bruised inside out. It was

1:12:33.920 --> 1:12:36.280
<v Speaker 2>exciting to do. It was no bones broken, but it

1:12:36.360 --> 1:12:38.439
<v Speaker 2>was like how or why did I do that. I

1:12:38.479 --> 1:12:43.240
<v Speaker 2>don't think any other actress ever did to films with him,

1:12:43.720 --> 1:12:45.960
<v Speaker 2>She said, I consider myself a survivor for a lot

1:12:46.000 --> 1:12:48.760
<v Speaker 2>of reasons. What's beautiful is to make a place within

1:12:48.800 --> 1:12:51.800
<v Speaker 2>yourself for a character without that character turning into a

1:12:51.800 --> 1:12:54.519
<v Speaker 2>negative entity. But sometimes your life gets blown apart like that.

1:12:54.880 --> 1:12:57.760
<v Speaker 2>Great actresses have been devoured from the inside. It's kind

1:12:57.800 --> 1:13:01.040
<v Speaker 2>of a self cannibalism. It's not a job that facilitates

1:13:01.080 --> 1:13:03.720
<v Speaker 2>a happy frame of mind, quite the opposite. That's why

1:13:03.760 --> 1:13:05.840
<v Speaker 2>it's important to be surrounded by friends who can be

1:13:05.880 --> 1:13:10.519
<v Speaker 2>angels but also conscientious objectors. Otherwise you can lose yourself.

1:13:11.840 --> 1:13:14.080
<v Speaker 2>And then the last thing I wanted to share is

1:13:15.479 --> 1:13:18.360
<v Speaker 2>I made it meaning possession so I wouldn't have to

1:13:18.400 --> 1:13:20.840
<v Speaker 2>work all the time. And I was criticized for it.

1:13:21.080 --> 1:13:23.200
<v Speaker 2>They said, why don't she make more films? It was

1:13:23.240 --> 1:13:25.360
<v Speaker 2>because my parents were ill and needed me, and my

1:13:25.439 --> 1:13:27.800
<v Speaker 2>children needed me. I even forgot that I was an

1:13:27.800 --> 1:13:31.200
<v Speaker 2>actress at certain times, but that too isn't forgiven. Basically,

1:13:31.240 --> 1:13:35.000
<v Speaker 2>there's no way out. So we see these references that

1:13:35.040 --> 1:13:39.000
<v Speaker 2>she makes to the fact that this was clearly an

1:13:39.000 --> 1:13:42.599
<v Speaker 2>ego trip male filmmaker that unfortunately, this is a narrative

1:13:42.640 --> 1:13:47.040
<v Speaker 2>we're familiar with and also something that we weirdly talked

1:13:47.040 --> 1:13:52.400
<v Speaker 2>about recently with Kathleen Turner, where it's a prominent actor,

1:13:52.439 --> 1:13:55.559
<v Speaker 2>she's more prominent in Europe than here, but like a

1:13:55.600 --> 1:13:59.160
<v Speaker 2>prominent actress who is made out to be a diva

1:13:59.400 --> 1:14:03.120
<v Speaker 2>when the real she is either setting a boundary with

1:14:03.160 --> 1:14:07.320
<v Speaker 2>an abusive filmmaker or she has things going on in

1:14:07.360 --> 1:14:09.840
<v Speaker 2>her life that are not being made space for or

1:14:09.880 --> 1:14:13.360
<v Speaker 2>accounted for, which just seems to very much be the case.

1:14:13.360 --> 1:14:16.000
<v Speaker 2>And I think it seems to me that, like all

1:14:16.040 --> 1:14:19.000
<v Speaker 2>things considered, she's still pretty generous with how she talks

1:14:19.000 --> 1:14:22.120
<v Speaker 2>about this experience, because it sounds like, I mean, she

1:14:22.360 --> 1:14:24.439
<v Speaker 2>has never pushed back on the fact that she did

1:14:24.479 --> 1:14:28.880
<v Speaker 2>attempt to take her life after seeing this movie, Like

1:14:28.920 --> 1:14:31.760
<v Speaker 2>that is not something that seems to be made up,

1:14:32.360 --> 1:14:34.479
<v Speaker 2>and it seems to be something that Sam Neil has

1:14:35.280 --> 1:14:39.439
<v Speaker 2>confirmed as well. So I just I don't know people

1:14:40.080 --> 1:14:44.240
<v Speaker 2>like oh, mellowtuurs, Like obviously we've talked about this for

1:14:44.280 --> 1:14:47.240
<v Speaker 2>ten years on the show, but there are so many

1:14:47.280 --> 1:14:50.280
<v Speaker 2>There are not so many, but there are examples of

1:14:51.439 --> 1:14:55.760
<v Speaker 2>men working through stuff in movies that is safe, and

1:14:55.800 --> 1:14:57.519
<v Speaker 2>I feel like David Lynch is actually a really good

1:14:57.520 --> 1:15:01.640
<v Speaker 2>example of that, as is John Water. And you know,

1:15:01.680 --> 1:15:05.680
<v Speaker 2>people with very specific narrative voices you can do that.

1:15:05.760 --> 1:15:08.720
<v Speaker 2>You can make a very personal movie and protect the

1:15:08.800 --> 1:15:13.000
<v Speaker 2>people who are realizing that vision, and you should.

1:15:13.040 --> 1:15:18.280
<v Speaker 3>But Zulaski certainly did not. So with all of this

1:15:18.439 --> 1:15:24.880
<v Speaker 3>in mind, I kept kind of toiling over how sympathetic

1:15:25.080 --> 1:15:29.000
<v Speaker 3>are we supposed to be to the Mark character, because true,

1:15:29.040 --> 1:15:33.720
<v Speaker 3>the movie does not shy away from showing his violence

1:15:34.160 --> 1:15:41.679
<v Speaker 3>and obsessiveness and abuse toward Anna. But I can't shake

1:15:41.720 --> 1:15:45.840
<v Speaker 3>the feeling that we're still supposed to be on his

1:15:46.080 --> 1:15:50.719
<v Speaker 3>side kind of and oh, you know, sure, he's flying

1:15:50.760 --> 1:15:54.200
<v Speaker 3>off the deep end sometimes, but it's only because his

1:15:54.400 --> 1:15:58.760
<v Speaker 3>wife is so hysterical. What else is he supposed to do?

1:15:59.680 --> 1:16:04.120
<v Speaker 3>Because it's not as though he doesn't try to understand her.

1:16:04.240 --> 1:16:06.479
<v Speaker 3>He asks her a lot of questions and there are

1:16:06.520 --> 1:16:10.080
<v Speaker 3>many scenes where he's like, what can I do to help?

1:16:10.120 --> 1:16:14.040
<v Speaker 3>What do you need? What is going on? Please communicate

1:16:14.080 --> 1:16:18.320
<v Speaker 3>with me, which in theory is nice. Obviously his tone

1:16:18.360 --> 1:16:21.120
<v Speaker 3>in the way he's handling it isn't good. But I

1:16:21.120 --> 1:16:23.720
<v Speaker 3>think more the problem is that Anna is written to

1:16:23.760 --> 1:16:29.000
<v Speaker 3>be a character who is just so like hysterical that

1:16:29.280 --> 1:16:33.200
<v Speaker 3>we are meant to be like, oh what even the

1:16:33.640 --> 1:16:38.080
<v Speaker 3>Because I watched this movie on Shutter and the short

1:16:38.080 --> 1:16:43.160
<v Speaker 3>synopsis of the movie on the platform basically blames everything

1:16:43.240 --> 1:16:46.639
<v Speaker 3>on her because it says something like, this stunning nightmare

1:16:46.760 --> 1:16:50.479
<v Speaker 3>of a marriage unraveling is an experience unlike any other

1:16:50.960 --> 1:16:54.040
<v Speaker 3>professional spy. Mark returns to his West Berlin home to

1:16:54.120 --> 1:16:58.080
<v Speaker 3>find his wife insistent on a divorce. As Anna's frenzied

1:16:58.120 --> 1:17:01.960
<v Speaker 3>behavior becomes ever more alarming, Mark discovers a truth far

1:17:02.040 --> 1:17:04.760
<v Speaker 3>more sinister than his wildest suspicions.

1:17:05.360 --> 1:17:09.440
<v Speaker 2>So I'm gonna give the benefit of the doubt and say,

1:17:09.600 --> 1:17:13.320
<v Speaker 2>I think that's AI. Like, that sounds like a very

1:17:13.439 --> 1:17:15.280
<v Speaker 2>AI coded right.

1:17:15.400 --> 1:17:17.040
<v Speaker 3>But I also I think a lot of people would

1:17:17.160 --> 1:17:21.120
<v Speaker 3>watch this movie and agree with that assessment and be like, sure,

1:17:21.200 --> 1:17:24.320
<v Speaker 3>he yelled and he struck her.

1:17:24.640 --> 1:17:28.560
<v Speaker 2>But she's she like drove him to it kind of, yeah, exactly.

1:17:29.479 --> 1:17:34.519
<v Speaker 1>So it's interesting. I don't really see that. I mean,

1:17:34.560 --> 1:17:36.880
<v Speaker 1>I see him, as I've said it, kind of this

1:17:36.920 --> 1:17:39.479
<v Speaker 1>whole time where he is a simpleton. He's kind of

1:17:39.479 --> 1:17:43.599
<v Speaker 1>a childlike person totally, and I only sympathize with him

1:17:43.600 --> 1:17:45.840
<v Speaker 1>in that because it's like, oh, buddy, you don't get it.

1:17:46.520 --> 1:17:49.560
<v Speaker 1>And I think that's maybe a part of the reclaiming

1:17:49.600 --> 1:17:52.720
<v Speaker 1>that a lot of people, especially women, have had in

1:17:52.800 --> 1:17:55.519
<v Speaker 1>the in the last decade toward this movie is like

1:17:56.000 --> 1:18:00.560
<v Speaker 1>it's almost an accidental it's like an accidental feminist horror film.

1:18:00.880 --> 1:18:03.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I definitely I.

1:18:03.040 --> 1:18:05.599
<v Speaker 3>See that reading, And of course, like, obviously I don't

1:18:05.640 --> 1:18:09.479
<v Speaker 3>agree with oh, like she drove him to this horrible

1:18:09.640 --> 1:18:12.800
<v Speaker 3>right behavior. But I think there would be people out

1:18:12.800 --> 1:18:16.439
<v Speaker 3>there who would, Yeah, particularly men who would read it

1:18:16.560 --> 1:18:17.240
<v Speaker 3>that way.

1:18:17.560 --> 1:18:20.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I agree that that's definitely like, that's the bad

1:18:20.960 --> 1:18:24.160
<v Speaker 2>faith reading that a certain kind of person is going

1:18:24.200 --> 1:18:29.240
<v Speaker 2>to take, particularly have a certain generation like, But totally

1:18:29.320 --> 1:18:32.000
<v Speaker 2>I think, yeah, at least I agree. I don't. I

1:18:32.000 --> 1:18:35.160
<v Speaker 2>don't know. I think that even when Mark is and

1:18:35.200 --> 1:18:37.360
<v Speaker 2>again I don't, I can't pretend to know what's going

1:18:37.360 --> 1:18:40.280
<v Speaker 2>through Zelewski's head because he is not above abusing his

1:18:40.320 --> 1:18:43.880
<v Speaker 2>own cast. So right, I think that any takeaway from

1:18:43.920 --> 1:18:48.000
<v Speaker 2>this that is empowering is like you you bring in

1:18:48.000 --> 1:18:50.240
<v Speaker 2>your own baggage to it. But I'm okay with that,

1:18:50.800 --> 1:18:53.000
<v Speaker 2>and that is I guess the thing with like a

1:18:53.080 --> 1:18:56.479
<v Speaker 2>Lucy Goosey movie like this is like there's enough sort

1:18:56.479 --> 1:18:59.080
<v Speaker 2>of blank space that you can project yourself onto it.

1:18:59.360 --> 1:19:01.639
<v Speaker 2>But I do think that even it's I don't think

1:19:01.640 --> 1:19:05.240
<v Speaker 2>we're supposed to think that when Mark is asking her

1:19:05.400 --> 1:19:08.760
<v Speaker 2>what she's thinking, that he actually means it because the

1:19:08.800 --> 1:19:10.640
<v Speaker 2>way that he does it, in the way that the

1:19:10.680 --> 1:19:13.160
<v Speaker 2>performance is because also, like so much of this movie

1:19:13.240 --> 1:19:18.360
<v Speaker 2>is the performances. He's so fucking pathetic. Like and to me,

1:19:18.439 --> 1:19:21.479
<v Speaker 2>it's like he doesn't actually mean what he's saying. He's

1:19:21.479 --> 1:19:24.160
<v Speaker 2>saying the thing he thinks he needs to say, because

1:19:24.240 --> 1:19:27.120
<v Speaker 2>it's like he only reacts to I think it's like

1:19:27.160 --> 1:19:29.040
<v Speaker 2>a really good point Lesha that he doesn't really have

1:19:29.120 --> 1:19:32.880
<v Speaker 2>any original ideas. He just sort of does what his

1:19:32.920 --> 1:19:35.679
<v Speaker 2>wife just did in an attempt to understand why she's

1:19:35.680 --> 1:19:38.080
<v Speaker 2>doing it. But I don't think that he's trying to

1:19:38.160 --> 1:19:41.880
<v Speaker 2>understand why she's feeling because he actually cares. I think

1:19:41.880 --> 1:19:44.080
<v Speaker 2>he's just trying to understand her to the extent that

1:19:44.160 --> 1:19:47.679
<v Speaker 2>he can own her again. And so in different scenes,

1:19:47.760 --> 1:19:50.519
<v Speaker 2>he is reacting in the way that he thinks will

1:19:50.600 --> 1:19:54.519
<v Speaker 2>either trick her into being closer to him or frighten

1:19:54.600 --> 1:19:59.320
<v Speaker 2>her into staying. And like, that's right, classic abuser tactics,

1:19:59.360 --> 1:20:02.320
<v Speaker 2>where he just sort of seems to randomly choose the

1:20:02.360 --> 1:20:04.720
<v Speaker 2>tactic he thinks will be more successful. And this is

1:20:04.800 --> 1:20:08.360
<v Speaker 2>I don't know, like I it's again it's so so elevated,

1:20:09.240 --> 1:20:11.840
<v Speaker 2>but like having been in an abusive relationship is like

1:20:12.120 --> 1:20:14.640
<v Speaker 2>sometimes an abuser will just be like okay, am I

1:20:14.720 --> 1:20:17.200
<v Speaker 2>going to like yell and shove and throw my weight

1:20:17.240 --> 1:20:19.439
<v Speaker 2>around to freak you out into staying or am I

1:20:19.479 --> 1:20:21.559
<v Speaker 2>gonna fling myself on the floor and be like, oh

1:20:21.560 --> 1:20:24.000
<v Speaker 2>my god, I'm so pathetic. I would do anything for you,

1:20:24.760 --> 1:20:27.240
<v Speaker 2>but no one does that because they mean it. You know,

1:20:27.360 --> 1:20:32.080
<v Speaker 2>like it's just like two different kinds of control tactics.

1:20:32.800 --> 1:20:34.840
<v Speaker 2>And again, like speaking to your point, Kaitlin, I don't

1:20:34.840 --> 1:20:40.040
<v Speaker 2>know exactly how aware this director is of abuse tactics,

1:20:40.040 --> 1:20:43.240
<v Speaker 2>given that he weaponized them to make the movie. And

1:20:43.600 --> 1:20:46.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, watching this movie, you're like, well, I hope

1:20:46.240 --> 1:20:49.519
<v Speaker 2>his ex wife is doing well because and it seems

1:20:49.520 --> 1:20:52.280
<v Speaker 2>like she is. She was in a long term relationship

1:20:52.280 --> 1:20:56.080
<v Speaker 2>after this. Oh gosh, I'm going to butcher this Polish name,

1:20:56.479 --> 1:21:01.160
<v Speaker 2>but it is based on his marriage with Malgorza Bronick.

1:21:02.080 --> 1:21:06.400
<v Speaker 2>She went on to have a you know, forty year

1:21:06.600 --> 1:21:11.040
<v Speaker 2>relationship that seemed very happy but that you know, down

1:21:11.080 --> 1:21:16.800
<v Speaker 2>to They had a son, another Polish Damicut pronounce Zowery Zilowski.

1:21:17.400 --> 1:21:19.400
<v Speaker 2>I don't know who at the time of this movie

1:21:19.560 --> 1:21:21.240
<v Speaker 2>would have been nine years old when it came out.

1:21:21.280 --> 1:21:24.040
<v Speaker 2>So it's like, I also think that there's I don't

1:21:24.040 --> 1:21:30.519
<v Speaker 2>know if I'm an autobiographical filmmaker, you know, to some extent,

1:21:30.560 --> 1:21:32.760
<v Speaker 2>your past relationships are going to be fair game. It's

1:21:32.760 --> 1:21:36.240
<v Speaker 2>gonna come up. But like when you're he killed his

1:21:36.280 --> 1:21:40.160
<v Speaker 2>own son, I'm pretty sure, Like and if you're happy, yeah,

1:21:40.280 --> 1:21:42.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I'm hoping that his nine year old was

1:21:42.400 --> 1:21:43.960
<v Speaker 2>not allowed to see this movie when it came out.

1:21:44.240 --> 1:21:45.640
<v Speaker 2>But it's like you grow up and see that and

1:21:45.680 --> 1:21:49.000
<v Speaker 2>you're like, oh, what there. I don't know, I don't

1:21:49.000 --> 1:21:52.360
<v Speaker 2>know where I'm getting to. I think that Mark. My

1:21:52.840 --> 1:21:54.519
<v Speaker 2>rate of it is that I think we are supposed

1:21:54.520 --> 1:21:57.400
<v Speaker 2>to view Mark as pathetic, but I guess it is

1:21:57.520 --> 1:22:01.639
<v Speaker 2>up to the viewer of how much how much rope

1:22:01.680 --> 1:22:04.519
<v Speaker 2>they're gonna throw him to be like, well, he's only

1:22:04.680 --> 1:22:07.519
<v Speaker 2>pathetic because and not just what I think we all

1:22:07.560 --> 1:22:10.720
<v Speaker 2>agree on, which is that there is an inherent patheticness

1:22:10.760 --> 1:22:13.640
<v Speaker 2>to him because of how he's been socially conditioned. Right.

1:22:15.200 --> 1:22:17.679
<v Speaker 3>I also think it would have been helpful if Anna

1:22:17.760 --> 1:22:21.400
<v Speaker 3>had been characterized a bit more so that we understood

1:22:21.400 --> 1:22:25.080
<v Speaker 3>where she was coming from. Perhaps and we can again

1:22:25.200 --> 1:22:30.320
<v Speaker 3>like speculate and insert our own experiences and kind of

1:22:30.320 --> 1:22:32.920
<v Speaker 3>project those on to her in a way that does

1:22:33.000 --> 1:22:37.320
<v Speaker 3>make her more empathetic and sympathetic. But the movie doesn't

1:22:37.360 --> 1:22:44.479
<v Speaker 3>do all that much, so you're just like the and

1:22:44.479 --> 1:22:48.719
<v Speaker 3>then she has a tentacle boyfriend who she's making and we're.

1:22:48.560 --> 1:22:51.880
<v Speaker 2>Like, and that is what again, I am supportive of that,

1:22:52.360 --> 1:22:56.280
<v Speaker 2>but there, yeah, I mean, I guess that my I'm

1:22:56.280 --> 1:22:58.040
<v Speaker 2>not trying to play a devil's advocate too much. I

1:22:58.160 --> 1:23:00.439
<v Speaker 2>just I don't think that we really know that much

1:23:00.439 --> 1:23:04.120
<v Speaker 2>about either of them, because it's like even Mark's backstory

1:23:04.160 --> 1:23:08.160
<v Speaker 2>of like he's a spy is kind of just like

1:23:08.240 --> 1:23:11.080
<v Speaker 2>played as a joke and it seems like I mean,

1:23:11.120 --> 1:23:14.320
<v Speaker 2>and this is where I feel like there are political

1:23:14.400 --> 1:23:19.720
<v Speaker 2>undertones to this movie that I just kind of don't understand. Unfortunately,

1:23:19.760 --> 1:23:23.080
<v Speaker 2>Like I don't have the like the history background to

1:23:23.160 --> 1:23:26.360
<v Speaker 2>fully understand Germany in the early eighties, other than like

1:23:26.680 --> 1:23:28.439
<v Speaker 2>obviously we know the Berlin Wall isn't going to be

1:23:28.479 --> 1:23:35.000
<v Speaker 2>there much longer, but the whole it anytime I say this,

1:23:35.120 --> 1:23:39.160
<v Speaker 2>I think, I'm like, it's like I Frankenstein, but go on,

1:23:39.240 --> 1:23:41.400
<v Speaker 2>when you're in this big city but there's no people

1:23:41.880 --> 1:23:44.280
<v Speaker 2>you know, like, and there is this feeling of like

1:23:44.360 --> 1:23:48.080
<v Speaker 2>this large abandoned space where people are just navigating this

1:23:48.120 --> 1:23:52.200
<v Speaker 2>psychological horror. But I also think that that is a

1:23:52.240 --> 1:23:56.040
<v Speaker 2>statement on West Berlin at this time too, where it's

1:23:56.120 --> 1:23:58.519
<v Speaker 2>like there are people, but where are they?

1:23:58.680 --> 1:23:59.440
<v Speaker 3>Am?

1:24:00.120 --> 1:24:03.640
<v Speaker 2>I don't know? Yeah, I honestly like if there are

1:24:03.720 --> 1:24:07.560
<v Speaker 2>listeners that like understand the political undertones of this, I

1:24:07.560 --> 1:24:10.320
<v Speaker 2>would love to hear from you, because I know that

1:24:10.360 --> 1:24:12.360
<v Speaker 2>it's there and I just like was not able to

1:24:12.439 --> 1:24:15.960
<v Speaker 2>quite get there in time to record this. But you know,

1:24:16.000 --> 1:24:19.040
<v Speaker 2>suffice it to say, we've like referenced this throughout the episode,

1:24:19.040 --> 1:24:23.360
<v Speaker 2>but that because of his previous films and ostentibly his

1:24:23.640 --> 1:24:29.599
<v Speaker 2>like openness to leftism, Zilowski was all but thrown out

1:24:29.640 --> 1:24:33.439
<v Speaker 2>of Polish cinema more than once, where kind of his

1:24:33.479 --> 1:24:36.200
<v Speaker 2>whole career was bouncing back and forth to the point

1:24:36.240 --> 1:24:39.559
<v Speaker 2>where this movie was a like, I believe, a three

1:24:39.640 --> 1:24:43.760
<v Speaker 2>country production where it was like a Polish director and

1:24:43.800 --> 1:24:47.439
<v Speaker 2>then a German French co production, because that was at

1:24:47.520 --> 1:24:49.639
<v Speaker 2>the time the only way that he could make movies

1:24:49.720 --> 1:24:55.320
<v Speaker 2>because previously, I think it was prior to Possession, he

1:24:55.400 --> 1:24:59.599
<v Speaker 2>had worked on a movie for two years in Poland

1:24:59.680 --> 1:25:03.040
<v Speaker 2>that the government ended up being like, you cannot release this.

1:25:03.120 --> 1:25:05.760
<v Speaker 2>We're not gonna let you release this due to your politics.

1:25:06.080 --> 1:25:10.000
<v Speaker 2>Burned the print, burned, the costume, basically like you know,

1:25:10.200 --> 1:25:12.920
<v Speaker 2>nuked it so he couldn't finish it. So there is

1:25:13.000 --> 1:25:18.320
<v Speaker 2>like not that it justifies his personal life, but this

1:25:18.400 --> 1:25:22.800
<v Speaker 2>movie is so fraught with like anger and frustration and

1:25:22.880 --> 1:25:27.320
<v Speaker 2>like impotence. And I mean I knew going in that

1:25:27.400 --> 1:25:31.519
<v Speaker 2>this was related to his relationship, but also knowing that

1:25:31.600 --> 1:25:34.760
<v Speaker 2>it also feels related to like creative impotence of like

1:25:34.880 --> 1:25:37.559
<v Speaker 2>working on something for two years and it doesn't mean anything.

1:25:38.120 --> 1:25:40.080
<v Speaker 2>There's just like so much going on here.

1:25:40.720 --> 1:25:43.080
<v Speaker 1>And then this film was kept from the public for

1:25:43.120 --> 1:25:45.559
<v Speaker 1>so long because it was caught up in the video

1:25:45.680 --> 1:25:47.400
<v Speaker 1>Nasties scandal.

1:25:47.800 --> 1:25:50.160
<v Speaker 2>What a great wait, can you speak to that a

1:25:50.200 --> 1:25:52.720
<v Speaker 2>little bit because I've just learned about it, And what

1:25:52.800 --> 1:25:53.960
<v Speaker 2>a great name for a scandal.

1:25:54.280 --> 1:25:58.479
<v Speaker 1>Oh yeah, I mean we've had equivalent like moral panics

1:25:58.520 --> 1:26:01.280
<v Speaker 1>in the States, But it was essentially this thing of

1:26:01.320 --> 1:26:04.599
<v Speaker 1>the censors being like, oh no, you can't show Texas

1:26:04.680 --> 1:26:07.759
<v Speaker 1>Chainsaw Massacre. You can't show any of these types of films,

1:26:07.760 --> 1:26:09.720
<v Speaker 1>and so we're just going to confiscate all of them

1:26:10.120 --> 1:26:12.760
<v Speaker 1>until we have rulings on each of these films to

1:26:12.840 --> 1:26:15.120
<v Speaker 1>decide whether or not they're obscene. And so they were

1:26:15.360 --> 1:26:18.200
<v Speaker 1>banned in the UK for a really long time until

1:26:18.240 --> 1:26:21.839
<v Speaker 1>they were able to evaluate it, and like a Johnny

1:26:21.960 --> 1:26:25.200
<v Speaker 1>and Sam Neil had to like write separate letters just

1:26:25.240 --> 1:26:29.120
<v Speaker 1>talking about like why a quote unquote octopus fucking was

1:26:29.600 --> 1:26:33.040
<v Speaker 1>not obscene? Like they were seriously talking about is this

1:26:33.160 --> 1:26:35.280
<v Speaker 1>beast reality? Like what?

1:26:36.040 --> 1:26:36.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah?

1:26:36.320 --> 1:26:39.519
<v Speaker 1>So they were getting really like worse than we are today,

1:26:39.600 --> 1:26:41.599
<v Speaker 1>Like it really deep in on.

1:26:41.560 --> 1:26:43.800
<v Speaker 2>This and it's like when we get to the point

1:26:43.840 --> 1:26:46.479
<v Speaker 2>where like actors are having to do homework, I'm like,

1:26:46.560 --> 1:26:49.559
<v Speaker 2>that's never that's never gonna vote well no.

1:26:49.760 --> 1:26:53.440
<v Speaker 1>But so like eventually they're like, Okay, it's not that obscene,

1:26:53.600 --> 1:26:57.639
<v Speaker 1>and they're like, but for us audiences, you're just gonna

1:26:57.640 --> 1:27:00.280
<v Speaker 1>have to make several cuts and rearrange the field and

1:27:00.320 --> 1:27:04.240
<v Speaker 1>make it linear, which what this film cannot survive that.

1:27:04.800 --> 1:27:07.760
<v Speaker 1>So some you know people in the US were able

1:27:07.800 --> 1:27:09.599
<v Speaker 1>to see it and they're like, what the fuck is this?

1:27:09.600 --> 1:27:13.240
<v Speaker 1>This as horrible. So it was trash for a really

1:27:13.280 --> 1:27:16.439
<v Speaker 1>long time until it got a proper release date I

1:27:16.439 --> 1:27:19.479
<v Speaker 1>believe in like around two thousand and nine, and that's

1:27:19.479 --> 1:27:21.960
<v Speaker 1>when we start to see it like on YouTube and

1:27:22.040 --> 1:27:25.679
<v Speaker 1>appearing at you know, midnight film forums and things like that.

1:27:26.200 --> 1:27:30.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the version that was initially released in the US

1:27:31.680 --> 1:27:35.400
<v Speaker 3>was an edited eighty one minute version of the movie,

1:27:35.439 --> 1:27:38.320
<v Speaker 3>so about forty minutes were cut out, and it basically

1:27:38.479 --> 1:27:42.400
<v Speaker 3>just turned the movie into like a creature feature rather

1:27:42.520 --> 1:27:48.480
<v Speaker 3>than any story about like the breakdown of this marriage

1:27:48.800 --> 1:27:52.560
<v Speaker 3>and all of this sort of like psychological horror components

1:27:52.600 --> 1:27:54.280
<v Speaker 3>of the movie. It was just like, and look at

1:27:54.280 --> 1:27:58.320
<v Speaker 3>this gooey monster. Isn't it scary? And it's like, well,

1:27:58.320 --> 1:28:04.600
<v Speaker 3>that's not what the movie's about. No, but yeah, this

1:28:05.160 --> 1:28:09.559
<v Speaker 3>is a very befuddling movie that I still don't know

1:28:09.560 --> 1:28:10.160
<v Speaker 3>what to make of.

1:28:10.760 --> 1:28:13.240
<v Speaker 1>One last thing I kind of wanted to mention was

1:28:14.080 --> 1:28:17.920
<v Speaker 1>Kila Janniee's take on this from House of Psychotic Women.

1:28:18.720 --> 1:28:22.040
<v Speaker 1>You guys have yes, yes, so she says, And I

1:28:22.840 --> 1:28:27.360
<v Speaker 1>totally identify with this, she says, I can relate intensely

1:28:27.360 --> 1:28:30.519
<v Speaker 1>to Anna's disturbing fits. In my house growing up, it

1:28:30.640 --> 1:28:33.479
<v Speaker 1>was my voice that was a problem. I was told

1:28:33.520 --> 1:28:36.160
<v Speaker 1>not to talk, and as Anna struggles to talk, her

1:28:36.200 --> 1:28:39.880
<v Speaker 1>whispers become growl, screams and hyperventilating. There's a freedom in

1:28:39.920 --> 1:28:43.840
<v Speaker 1>this kind of self obliteration, the collapse of propriety. We

1:28:43.880 --> 1:28:46.600
<v Speaker 1>all need that place, that window of time.

1:28:46.439 --> 1:28:47.679
<v Speaker 2>To go crazy.

1:28:48.400 --> 1:28:52.360
<v Speaker 1>So that's how whenever I watched this film, I'm like,

1:28:53.320 --> 1:28:56.720
<v Speaker 1>I feel like it is about a woman finally like

1:28:56.800 --> 1:29:01.559
<v Speaker 1>figuring out how to possess herself and let loose and

1:29:02.680 --> 1:29:04.880
<v Speaker 1>everything that comes out of her. It's sort of like,

1:29:04.960 --> 1:29:07.960
<v Speaker 1>I don't fucking care anymore. I'm gonna find my voice.

1:29:08.040 --> 1:29:11.400
<v Speaker 1>I'm gonna use it and fuck everybody else.

1:29:11.680 --> 1:29:12.439
<v Speaker 2>Totally so.

1:29:12.760 --> 1:29:15.400
<v Speaker 1>And I think that maybe a lot of people have

1:29:15.520 --> 1:29:18.040
<v Speaker 1>like kind of come around to that reading.

1:29:18.479 --> 1:29:21.080
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. Also, how's a psychotic woman in such

1:29:21.120 --> 1:29:23.920
<v Speaker 2>an al teimer? It's so good, so good, it's really

1:29:23.920 --> 1:29:24.519
<v Speaker 2>really good.

1:29:24.880 --> 1:29:28.920
<v Speaker 3>I would more align with I mean, I see that

1:29:29.000 --> 1:29:32.280
<v Speaker 3>interpretation for sure and again, and as a host of

1:29:32.320 --> 1:29:35.800
<v Speaker 3>the Bechdel cast, my interpretation of this movie, or like

1:29:35.840 --> 1:29:41.400
<v Speaker 3>my attachment to it would be aligned with that. But

1:29:41.439 --> 1:29:45.240
<v Speaker 3>I'm having a hard time getting there. I think because

1:29:46.240 --> 1:29:49.479
<v Speaker 3>Mark is framed as the protagonist and the main point

1:29:49.479 --> 1:29:53.320
<v Speaker 3>of view character, we are with him for most of

1:29:53.360 --> 1:29:58.080
<v Speaker 3>the time. When we do cut to Anna, it's because

1:29:58.120 --> 1:30:02.360
<v Speaker 3>she's with Mark, and we just don't I feel, don't

1:30:02.360 --> 1:30:07.360
<v Speaker 3>hone in enough on her as a character and what

1:30:07.760 --> 1:30:10.880
<v Speaker 3>is fully going on with her. I feel like we're

1:30:10.920 --> 1:30:16.120
<v Speaker 3>seeing her through Mark's eyes versus seeing her more objectively,

1:30:17.479 --> 1:30:20.280
<v Speaker 3>I feel free to disagree, but as I'm watching this,

1:30:21.000 --> 1:30:22.679
<v Speaker 3>I wish she was the point of view character.

1:30:23.120 --> 1:30:25.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh yeah, no, I agree, but it's I also like,

1:30:25.920 --> 1:30:28.080
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't want to see her as the point of view

1:30:28.160 --> 1:30:30.960
<v Speaker 2>character from this writer's perspectives. Like, I don't really know.

1:30:31.120 --> 1:30:33.800
<v Speaker 2>The thing is, I don't think that it's really possible

1:30:34.000 --> 1:30:36.320
<v Speaker 2>that that's why there's there was. I don't know if

1:30:36.360 --> 1:30:38.960
<v Speaker 2>it's still happening. I hope that it's not. But like

1:30:39.240 --> 1:30:42.479
<v Speaker 2>there was a proposed remake of this movie starring Robert

1:30:42.479 --> 1:30:45.160
<v Speaker 2>Pattinson and the director of Smile. So again we're like,

1:30:45.680 --> 1:30:49.519
<v Speaker 2>which is like, no, please, don't, please don't. Yeah, lived

1:30:50.000 --> 1:30:53.240
<v Speaker 2>write an original story, for the love of God. But

1:30:53.240 --> 1:30:55.200
<v Speaker 2>but I see what you're saying. I just like I wouldn't.

1:30:55.240 --> 1:30:58.880
<v Speaker 2>I don't want to know what Zilowski's like feelings from

1:30:58.880 --> 1:31:02.559
<v Speaker 2>a female perspective would be. And and this is like

1:31:02.680 --> 1:31:04.400
<v Speaker 2>kind of rare, and I guess sort of like pushes

1:31:04.400 --> 1:31:06.080
<v Speaker 2>against what our show is really about. But like for

1:31:06.160 --> 1:31:10.479
<v Speaker 2>this movie, particularly because it came it took so long

1:31:10.520 --> 1:31:12.960
<v Speaker 2>for it to come out in its like intended form,

1:31:13.400 --> 1:31:16.960
<v Speaker 2>I don't really care what the director's intention is because

1:31:17.439 --> 1:31:21.560
<v Speaker 2>it's not clear. Like it's not clear, and I I

1:31:21.880 --> 1:31:27.160
<v Speaker 2>guess I am. I really like the cathartic nature of

1:31:27.200 --> 1:31:30.880
<v Speaker 2>this movie where I would like to know more about Anna.

1:31:30.920 --> 1:31:33.639
<v Speaker 2>I would like it confirmed that like she was. I mean,

1:31:33.680 --> 1:31:35.200
<v Speaker 2>it would make a lot of sense to me if

1:31:35.240 --> 1:31:39.120
<v Speaker 2>she was a dance teacher that stepped away from dance.

1:31:39.160 --> 1:31:42.920
<v Speaker 2>So not only is she in this unhappy marriage and

1:31:43.040 --> 1:31:45.800
<v Speaker 2>like not happy being a mother and not fitting these

1:31:45.880 --> 1:31:47.880
<v Speaker 2>roles that she's quote unquote supposed to fill, but she's

1:31:47.920 --> 1:31:51.559
<v Speaker 2>also been removed from her art, and like that is

1:31:51.640 --> 1:31:54.479
<v Speaker 2>really really compelling. I wish that, like, and I do

1:31:54.479 --> 1:31:56.800
<v Speaker 2>think that there's space for that, because there's so much

1:31:56.920 --> 1:31:59.640
<v Speaker 2>YadA YadA in this movie that yeah, I would be

1:31:59.640 --> 1:32:01.920
<v Speaker 2>interested to see that version of it. But even as

1:32:01.960 --> 1:32:05.960
<v Speaker 2>it is, I just like, I really like her. I

1:32:06.160 --> 1:32:08.600
<v Speaker 2>like and she's and we'll get to like they are

1:32:08.760 --> 1:32:12.080
<v Speaker 2>both really bad parents, which I do think is interesting

1:32:12.400 --> 1:32:16.720
<v Speaker 2>in the context of like, Yeah, I will say that

1:32:16.840 --> 1:32:18.840
<v Speaker 2>I think Mark is made out to be the better

1:32:18.920 --> 1:32:22.240
<v Speaker 2>parent and the less negligent parent, or at least a

1:32:22.280 --> 1:32:25.280
<v Speaker 2>parent who pretends to care, which does feel like uh

1:32:25.400 --> 1:32:28.599
<v Speaker 2>Zilowski patting himself on the back. Meanwhile, he's killing his

1:32:28.600 --> 1:32:31.799
<v Speaker 2>own child in his movie uh and amusing as actors.

1:32:31.880 --> 1:32:35.160
<v Speaker 2>So fuck that, like that whole I think that that's

1:32:35.200 --> 1:32:38.200
<v Speaker 2>the real angle that, Like I'm like, he's being overly

1:32:38.240 --> 1:32:42.120
<v Speaker 2>generous with himself by just saying that like because his

1:32:42.160 --> 1:32:44.320
<v Speaker 2>wife left him, she's a piece of shit parent, which

1:32:44.360 --> 1:32:47.280
<v Speaker 2>is like, you know, something that's been weaponized against women

1:32:47.439 --> 1:32:51.120
<v Speaker 2>for millennia, right, But like, but what I really like

1:32:51.200 --> 1:32:54.360
<v Speaker 2>about Anna is her I don't give a fuck miss,

1:32:54.400 --> 1:32:58.040
<v Speaker 2>Like that's so cathartic of like anytime he is I

1:32:58.040 --> 1:33:00.000
<v Speaker 2>don't know, yeah, because it's again like you're putting yourself

1:33:00.040 --> 1:33:03.320
<v Speaker 2>for the situation of like, uh, someone being like please,

1:33:03.360 --> 1:33:04.559
<v Speaker 2>like do you want to be with me too? And

1:33:04.600 --> 1:33:07.240
<v Speaker 2>she's like no, and he he's like what if I

1:33:07.320 --> 1:33:09.519
<v Speaker 2>laid down and like kissed your feet and said love

1:33:09.520 --> 1:33:11.559
<v Speaker 2>you so much? She's like whatever, I don't care. Like

1:33:11.640 --> 1:33:15.880
<v Speaker 2>he cuts himself and she's like bye, Like something about that.

1:33:16.200 --> 1:33:20.559
<v Speaker 2>It does feel like if you are in the quote

1:33:20.640 --> 1:33:25.920
<v Speaker 2>unquote more feminine submissive role in a relationship, seeing the

1:33:25.960 --> 1:33:29.479
<v Speaker 2>person who's expected to be that way just say exactly

1:33:29.479 --> 1:33:31.840
<v Speaker 2>what's on their mind at all times and when they're upset,

1:33:31.880 --> 1:33:36.559
<v Speaker 2>they scream, and when they're angry they act like, yes,

1:33:36.760 --> 1:33:39.439
<v Speaker 2>I really connect with that, and I really like that.

1:33:39.920 --> 1:33:43.720
<v Speaker 2>And Yeah, to me, it's like, I doubt that uh

1:33:44.200 --> 1:33:48.719
<v Speaker 2>Zethowski was like, I'm making this movie for for people

1:33:48.800 --> 1:33:52.320
<v Speaker 2>who who have felt like you know, who relate with Anna.

1:33:52.680 --> 1:33:54.639
<v Speaker 2>I think he is probably making it for the people

1:33:54.680 --> 1:33:56.599
<v Speaker 2>who relate with Mark. I just don't care totally.

1:33:57.000 --> 1:34:00.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, agreed. I will also say I that those two

1:34:01.400 --> 1:34:05.360
<v Speaker 1>shots of the videotape of her actually talking to the camera,

1:34:05.680 --> 1:34:08.280
<v Speaker 1>he could have just not put those in the film.

1:34:08.439 --> 1:34:10.360
<v Speaker 1>But I do think we get at least a glimpse

1:34:10.360 --> 1:34:14.679
<v Speaker 1>of exactly what you're saying Jamie about her feeling over

1:34:14.720 --> 1:34:17.760
<v Speaker 1>the past year, because it is like from Heinrich's point

1:34:17.760 --> 1:34:21.639
<v Speaker 1>of view and from their year together away from Mark,

1:34:22.160 --> 1:34:25.479
<v Speaker 1>she is talking about this like weight that's on her

1:34:25.600 --> 1:34:28.920
<v Speaker 1>and she's not even really being that articulate because she

1:34:29.280 --> 1:34:32.799
<v Speaker 1>hasn't figured it out yet. She's also she's just trying

1:34:32.840 --> 1:34:34.840
<v Speaker 1>to find the right words to say. She's speaking very

1:34:34.920 --> 1:34:37.720
<v Speaker 1>poetically because it's all she can really think of, and

1:34:37.760 --> 1:34:40.880
<v Speaker 1>it's almost from the perspective of someone panicked, like I've

1:34:40.880 --> 1:34:45.080
<v Speaker 1>got myself into this really shitty position and it's still

1:34:45.120 --> 1:34:47.559
<v Speaker 1>not enough like you, it's like kind of coded, but

1:34:47.600 --> 1:34:50.360
<v Speaker 1>it's like you Heinrich are not exactly what I was

1:34:50.360 --> 1:34:50.840
<v Speaker 1>looking for.

1:34:50.960 --> 1:34:52.040
<v Speaker 3>So what is it? What have?

1:34:52.800 --> 1:34:57.600
<v Speaker 1>How do I rebuild my faith in myself in like

1:34:57.720 --> 1:35:00.960
<v Speaker 1>my life? Like what can I possibly do next? Like

1:35:01.040 --> 1:35:03.880
<v Speaker 1>that whole scene could have been omitted, but it's at

1:35:03.960 --> 1:35:07.880
<v Speaker 1>least a glimpse into that that weight of being the

1:35:08.120 --> 1:35:13.640
<v Speaker 1>expected mother, the like domestic subservient person that she just

1:35:13.640 --> 1:35:15.080
<v Speaker 1>doesn't want to fucking do anymore.

1:35:15.479 --> 1:35:17.559
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I also wish. I feel like there's a I

1:35:17.600 --> 1:35:19.960
<v Speaker 2>do wish. I think that like if the movie had

1:35:20.080 --> 1:35:26.000
<v Speaker 2>ended less tragically for her, although it's like with the Doppelgangers,

1:35:26.439 --> 1:35:28.920
<v Speaker 2>it's sort of the door is open to like how

1:35:28.960 --> 1:35:31.240
<v Speaker 2>you can perceive that. I do feel like you know,

1:35:31.840 --> 1:35:35.599
<v Speaker 2>as is so like she gets undue punishment because it's

1:35:35.640 --> 1:35:38.000
<v Speaker 2>like if we're looking at it from like she's looking

1:35:38.479 --> 1:35:44.400
<v Speaker 2>for someone or something to make her feel whole or

1:35:44.439 --> 1:35:47.960
<v Speaker 2>if not, like to make her feel free but not alone,

1:35:48.439 --> 1:35:52.519
<v Speaker 2>which is like whatever the eternal struggle, and it's like

1:35:52.840 --> 1:35:55.920
<v Speaker 2>motherhood hasn't done it, This marriage hasn't done it. Even

1:35:56.360 --> 1:36:01.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, Heinrich hasn't done it, so she makes something

1:36:01.320 --> 1:36:06.120
<v Speaker 2>to fill that void and it destroys her, and like that,

1:36:07.000 --> 1:36:11.520
<v Speaker 2>I do feel like that is kind of misogynistic inherently

1:36:11.640 --> 1:36:13.880
<v Speaker 2>to be like, you can't have it all and if

1:36:13.880 --> 1:36:18.000
<v Speaker 2>you try to, you're gonna die, which you know, who

1:36:18.000 --> 1:36:20.240
<v Speaker 2>knows that that's what he's trying to say. I just

1:36:20.479 --> 1:36:22.200
<v Speaker 2>I don't know like it is, And it ends up

1:36:22.280 --> 1:36:24.240
<v Speaker 2>kind of being a tragedy for the two of them

1:36:24.280 --> 1:36:27.080
<v Speaker 2>in a way that feels I mean, at the end

1:36:27.120 --> 1:36:32.040
<v Speaker 2>of the day, mainly unfair to Bob. Let's not forget Bob,

1:36:32.240 --> 1:36:38.880
<v Speaker 2>Bob innocent Bob child, Yeah, but also feels unfair to

1:36:39.000 --> 1:36:43.080
<v Speaker 2>Anna because it feels like, I mean, she never has

1:36:43.320 --> 1:36:47.280
<v Speaker 2>someone that she can fully be herself with, like we

1:36:47.320 --> 1:36:53.680
<v Speaker 2>see her struggle with like that, unable to feel like

1:36:53.760 --> 1:36:57.879
<v Speaker 2>fully possessed of herself. She's just possessed by other people

1:36:57.960 --> 1:37:01.559
<v Speaker 2>or things. And then you know, like never sort of

1:37:01.640 --> 1:37:04.080
<v Speaker 2>reaches that point where she could be herself. She dies

1:37:04.120 --> 1:37:07.719
<v Speaker 2>before she ever gets there. And coming from this director

1:37:07.760 --> 1:37:11.840
<v Speaker 2>in particular, that feels mean. But I also think that

1:37:11.880 --> 1:37:14.599
<v Speaker 2>there's ways to view it that can be I don't know.

1:37:14.800 --> 1:37:17.240
<v Speaker 2>The second act of this movie I find very cathartic,

1:37:17.360 --> 1:37:22.960
<v Speaker 2>and then the end I don't love honestly, Like I.

1:37:22.439 --> 1:37:24.320
<v Speaker 3>Really lose the thread at the end.

1:37:25.000 --> 1:37:27.639
<v Speaker 2>I think the end is like political in a way

1:37:27.640 --> 1:37:30.640
<v Speaker 2>that I don't quite understand too, where it's like, you know,

1:37:31.280 --> 1:37:35.000
<v Speaker 2>it seems like it's an attack from East Germany possibly

1:37:35.080 --> 1:37:38.320
<v Speaker 2>like you know, so there is this like political tone

1:37:38.320 --> 1:37:40.519
<v Speaker 2>to the end that I feel like if you're not

1:37:41.000 --> 1:37:43.040
<v Speaker 2>in full understanding of what that is, it might it

1:37:43.120 --> 1:37:46.200
<v Speaker 2>felt confusing to me. I also don't think Bob needed

1:37:46.200 --> 1:37:47.960
<v Speaker 2>to die, Like why did it need to be so

1:37:48.200 --> 1:37:51.800
<v Speaker 2>fully tragic? I don't know why doesn't Bob get a doppelganger?

1:37:52.720 --> 1:37:53.479
<v Speaker 3>Riddle me that?

1:37:54.400 --> 1:37:59.960
<v Speaker 2>Where's Bob? Too? I mean, what about Bob?

1:38:00.160 --> 1:38:00.839
<v Speaker 3>Is the sequel?

1:38:01.000 --> 1:38:01.080
<v Speaker 1>Now?

1:38:01.160 --> 1:38:04.560
<v Speaker 2>I'm just kidding exactly.

1:38:07.360 --> 1:38:12.439
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, does anyone else have anything they'd like to talk about? Yeah?

1:38:12.479 --> 1:38:14.920
<v Speaker 1>I mean the end is so the end can go

1:38:15.040 --> 1:38:18.719
<v Speaker 1>either way. He could be that she created the devil

1:38:18.800 --> 1:38:21.080
<v Speaker 1>or that she created God and God is so to sturt,

1:38:21.240 --> 1:38:24.280
<v Speaker 1>like God hates the world so much that he just

1:38:24.320 --> 1:38:27.240
<v Speaker 1>wants to fucking destroy it. So it could be that

1:38:27.360 --> 1:38:32.559
<v Speaker 1>she created God like it, there are many different interpretations there.

1:38:32.560 --> 1:38:35.639
<v Speaker 2>Right, Like that's the read where her doing a staring

1:38:35.680 --> 1:38:38.880
<v Speaker 2>contest with a crucifix is actually very significant and not

1:38:38.920 --> 1:38:41.360
<v Speaker 2>just something that happens, which is how I view it.

1:38:41.520 --> 1:38:43.760
<v Speaker 1>That makes sense, I know, I said I was in

1:38:43.800 --> 1:38:46.439
<v Speaker 1>my brain, I'm like, is this her losing face faith?

1:38:46.600 --> 1:38:49.120
<v Speaker 1>Or is she like having an immaculate conception?

1:38:49.360 --> 1:38:52.960
<v Speaker 2>Like right, because she is like she's like ah, like

1:38:53.880 --> 1:38:56.280
<v Speaker 2>she's like wh what is that? Yeah?

1:38:56.560 --> 1:39:01.200
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, like I see your Jesus and I raise you

1:39:02.320 --> 1:39:05.919
<v Speaker 3>a dopple Ganger tentacle god man.

1:39:06.000 --> 1:39:12.160
<v Speaker 2>Like Beel's a bug? Yeah, octopus? Or is something?

1:39:13.040 --> 1:39:13.320
<v Speaker 3>Yeah?

1:39:13.640 --> 1:39:17.799
<v Speaker 2>I mean Ultimately, the takeaway for this movie is a shrug,

1:39:17.840 --> 1:39:19.960
<v Speaker 2>and it depends on who you are and what you're

1:39:19.960 --> 1:39:23.200
<v Speaker 2>bringing to the table. But it doesn't. But in the

1:39:23.240 --> 1:39:26.840
<v Speaker 2>same way, it doesn't feel like underthought. If anything, it

1:39:26.880 --> 1:39:31.200
<v Speaker 2>feels overthought and there's like too much. It's not like, oh,

1:39:31.280 --> 1:39:33.479
<v Speaker 2>the plot's too thin. It's like no, there's just there's

1:39:33.520 --> 1:39:37.360
<v Speaker 2>too much going on. Who knows yep. Indeed it doesn't

1:39:37.360 --> 1:39:42.759
<v Speaker 2>pass the Bechdel test and no, yeah, I mean Anna

1:39:43.080 --> 1:39:44.240
<v Speaker 2>is very isolated.

1:39:44.600 --> 1:39:49.680
<v Speaker 3>She has one friend, Margie, who she doesn't actually interact

1:39:49.720 --> 1:39:53.200
<v Speaker 3>with except to stab her off screen, right.

1:39:53.080 --> 1:39:55.280
<v Speaker 2>And who also even if she has a friend, is

1:39:55.320 --> 1:39:57.000
<v Speaker 2>not a good friend to her, we.

1:39:56.880 --> 1:40:00.599
<v Speaker 3>Know, right, And then there's Helen, who we don't really

1:40:00.680 --> 1:40:03.840
<v Speaker 3>know what's going on there either. Is that just kind

1:40:03.880 --> 1:40:08.120
<v Speaker 3>of like a weird predicable Also, when Isabella Johnny is

1:40:08.240 --> 1:40:12.080
<v Speaker 3>the Helen character, she looks so much like Dakota Johnson

1:40:12.120 --> 1:40:16.840
<v Speaker 3>to me that I was getting very distracted the bangs,

1:40:16.880 --> 1:40:19.280
<v Speaker 3>the bangs. Yeah, and that she has like kind of

1:40:19.320 --> 1:40:22.960
<v Speaker 3>the same just like long auburnish hair.

1:40:23.520 --> 1:40:26.400
<v Speaker 2>All of a sudden, it's materialists, right.

1:40:26.680 --> 1:40:29.720
<v Speaker 3>But anyway, Helen, I don't know what to make of

1:40:29.720 --> 1:40:33.679
<v Speaker 3>that character exactly. All this to say does not pass

1:40:33.880 --> 1:40:40.160
<v Speaker 3>the Bechdel test. But what about our nipple scale, in

1:40:40.680 --> 1:40:42.679
<v Speaker 3>which we rate the movie on a scale of zero

1:40:42.680 --> 1:40:47.479
<v Speaker 3>to five nipples, examining it through an intersectional feminist lens.

1:40:47.920 --> 1:40:53.600
<v Speaker 3>Oh god, and we're just not really sure, are we? I?

1:40:53.720 --> 1:40:57.800
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, No, this is tough. I'm gonna go like one

1:40:58.160 --> 1:41:02.360
<v Speaker 2>like because I feel like our scale is where intention

1:41:02.560 --> 1:41:06.400
<v Speaker 2>needs to be considered. Yeah. Yes, And I think that

1:41:06.720 --> 1:41:11.360
<v Speaker 2>he isn't not thinking about how Anna feels. But most

1:41:11.400 --> 1:41:14.080
<v Speaker 2>of what I got out of the Anna character I

1:41:14.160 --> 1:41:16.719
<v Speaker 2>didn't view as intended by the director.

1:41:17.000 --> 1:41:20.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, intention is very important here, and I don't think

1:41:20.400 --> 1:41:24.960
<v Speaker 3>the intention of Zelaski was to be like, yeah, definitely

1:41:25.320 --> 1:41:30.000
<v Speaker 3>empathize with this woman who's behaving awesomely.

1:41:30.479 --> 1:41:33.320
<v Speaker 2>I do think that he's he I don't know. The

1:41:33.360 --> 1:41:37.360
<v Speaker 2>furthest I can get is like he's thinking about this woman.

1:41:37.560 --> 1:41:40.360
<v Speaker 2>He's thinking about her. It seems like he wants to

1:41:40.560 --> 1:41:44.120
<v Speaker 2>understand her, but also kind of gives up at some point.

1:41:44.120 --> 1:41:46.920
<v Speaker 2>And I feel like that's where the Ed Johnny performance

1:41:47.000 --> 1:41:49.720
<v Speaker 2>really does like, and the Sam Neil performance, I feel

1:41:49.720 --> 1:41:51.880
<v Speaker 2>like they're doing so much heavy lifting where it's like,

1:41:51.920 --> 1:41:55.400
<v Speaker 2>if they're not fully committed, this movie sucks.

1:41:55.880 --> 1:41:58.559
<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Yeah, So with all that in mind, I'll give

1:41:58.600 --> 1:42:03.160
<v Speaker 3>the movie one nipple and I'll give it to the tentacles.

1:42:03.360 --> 1:42:05.320
<v Speaker 3>Or do I give the movie one tentacle? I know,

1:42:05.360 --> 1:42:09.080
<v Speaker 3>you know, is the tentacle scale this episode.

1:42:08.600 --> 1:42:11.519
<v Speaker 2>On one of eight one of eight tentacles, I'd still

1:42:11.560 --> 1:42:13.120
<v Speaker 2>give it one. I think one tentacle.

1:42:13.280 --> 1:42:16.360
<v Speaker 3>I think right, well, the the creature has I think

1:42:16.479 --> 1:42:20.360
<v Speaker 3>three tentacles, one for each arm and then one large

1:42:20.360 --> 1:42:22.840
<v Speaker 3>one where its legs.

1:42:22.479 --> 1:42:23.880
<v Speaker 2>Would be hm hmm.

1:42:23.960 --> 1:42:26.679
<v Speaker 3>So maybe out of out of three tentacles, I don't,

1:42:26.760 --> 1:42:28.840
<v Speaker 3>you know, hard to say, I'm going to give it

1:42:28.880 --> 1:42:30.639
<v Speaker 3>one nipple. I am going to give it to one

1:42:30.720 --> 1:42:36.559
<v Speaker 3>tentacle and shout out to Tentacles, the octopus from Legend

1:42:36.640 --> 1:42:40.200
<v Speaker 3>of Titanic, the animated film they stole the plot of

1:42:40.400 --> 1:42:42.200
<v Speaker 3>James Cameron's Titanic.

1:42:42.200 --> 1:42:45.800
<v Speaker 2>And also an American tale and also Anastasia. Yes, who

1:42:45.840 --> 1:42:48.040
<v Speaker 2>can say why, we don't know. I'm going to give

1:42:48.040 --> 1:42:50.160
<v Speaker 2>it one nipple as well, and I'm going to give

1:42:50.200 --> 1:42:55.599
<v Speaker 2>it to Isabella A Johnny. Just an iconic performance that

1:42:55.640 --> 1:42:57.519
<v Speaker 2>she should not have had to suffer the way she

1:42:57.560 --> 1:42:58.719
<v Speaker 2>did to make possible.

1:42:59.560 --> 1:43:03.960
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, right on, it's the same for me one because

1:43:04.000 --> 1:43:08.160
<v Speaker 1>we're talking about intent. So yeah, and I would definitely

1:43:08.240 --> 1:43:16.320
<v Speaker 1>give it to is Bella Johnny. She's iconic and yeah.

1:43:14.640 --> 1:43:16.760
<v Speaker 3>What a film. Thank you so much for being here,

1:43:16.800 --> 1:43:18.839
<v Speaker 3>Alicia truly, Yeah, no, thank.

1:43:18.640 --> 1:43:21.479
<v Speaker 1>You for having me. This is so awesome to talk about.

1:43:21.640 --> 1:43:25.040
<v Speaker 3>Oh my gosh, what a treat. Where can people follow

1:43:25.120 --> 1:43:29.240
<v Speaker 3>your work and your social media, etc.

1:43:30.439 --> 1:43:34.439
<v Speaker 1>So I'm under the another pun. I'm under the handle

1:43:34.840 --> 1:43:38.280
<v Speaker 1>at Benny and the Jesuits, so a play on June's

1:43:38.720 --> 1:43:44.080
<v Speaker 1>Priestesses spelled like the Benny Jesuit Priestesses. And my website

1:43:44.080 --> 1:43:47.760
<v Speaker 1>is Benny and the Jesuits and my latest thing is

1:43:47.800 --> 1:43:50.639
<v Speaker 1>that I just put out my most recent issue of

1:43:51.040 --> 1:43:55.760
<v Speaker 1>Resident Easel, which is Western horror done entirely in like

1:43:56.640 --> 1:44:00.720
<v Speaker 1>black and white and toned tan goodness. And I cover

1:44:01.000 --> 1:44:06.240
<v Speaker 1>the films Nope, Brimstone, Tremors, The Burrowers, Prey, and Rabbinus,

1:44:06.600 --> 1:44:08.280
<v Speaker 1>that sexy sexy movie.

1:44:08.080 --> 1:44:09.320
<v Speaker 2>Who Hell yeah.

1:44:10.160 --> 1:44:15.080
<v Speaker 3>You can follow us on Instagram. You can subscribe to

1:44:15.120 --> 1:44:20.160
<v Speaker 3>our Patreon aka Matreon, where you get two bonus episodes

1:44:20.200 --> 1:44:24.760
<v Speaker 3>every single month, as well as access to our back catalog.

1:44:26.560 --> 1:44:32.400
<v Speaker 3>With that, let's all go lay down in a bed

1:44:32.479 --> 1:44:33.400
<v Speaker 3>full of goo.

1:44:33.800 --> 1:44:37.960
<v Speaker 2>Hell yeah, let's all get fucked by our worst fearst tonight,

1:44:38.280 --> 1:44:40.880
<v Speaker 2>Okay in a fun and sexy way.

1:44:40.640 --> 1:44:42.639
<v Speaker 3>In a really passionate hot way.

1:44:43.240 --> 1:44:47.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, while Sam Neil just has to stand there. Sounds great,

1:44:48.840 --> 1:44:56.479
<v Speaker 2>Bye Bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia,

1:44:56.640 --> 1:45:00.639
<v Speaker 2>hosted and produced by Me, Jamie Loftus and Me Durrante.

1:45:01.040 --> 1:45:04.360
<v Speaker 3>The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtermann.

1:45:04.160 --> 1:45:07.599
<v Speaker 4>And edited by Caitlin Durrante. Ever heard of Them? That's

1:45:07.640 --> 1:45:10.960
<v Speaker 4>me and our logo and merch and all of our

1:45:11.080 --> 1:45:14.760
<v Speaker 4>artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus. Ever heard

1:45:14.800 --> 1:45:17.120
<v Speaker 4>of her, Oh My God, and our.

1:45:17.160 --> 1:45:20.160
<v Speaker 2>Theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan.

1:45:20.000 --> 1:45:23.160
<v Speaker 3>With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski.

1:45:22.680 --> 1:45:25.519
<v Speaker 2>Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only

1:45:25.840 --> 1:45:27.160
<v Speaker 2>Aristotle Acevedo.

1:45:27.680 --> 1:45:31.479
<v Speaker 3>For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash

1:45:31.479 --> 1:45:32.240
<v Speaker 3>Spectelcast