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Speaker 1: On The Bechdelcast.

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Speaker 2: The questions asked if movies have women in them, are

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Speaker 2: all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands, or do they

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Speaker 2: have individualism? The patriarchy? Zeff and best start changing it

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Speaker 2: with the Bechdel Cast. Hi, everybody, Jamie popping in at

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Speaker 2: the top of the episode to ask for your humble

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Speaker 2: vote in the Signal Awards. The Signal Awards are a

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Speaker 2: podcast industry award and a show a produce. We The

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Speaker 2: Unhoused has been nominated in the People's Choice category for

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Speaker 2: public service and activism. If you haven't listened to the

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Speaker 2: show before, we've talked about it on the Bechdel Cast

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Speaker 2: many times. But it is a show created and hosted

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Speaker 2: by the wonderful Theo Henderson that is about issues that

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Speaker 2: affect the unhoused, told by unhoused people themselves. It is

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Speaker 2: a wonderful show. I am so proud of it. There

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Speaker 2: are some stiff competition, and we would appreciate your vote.

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Speaker 2: It is literally two clicks. There is a link in

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Speaker 2: the description of the episode. You are listening right now,

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Speaker 2: so pause the episode, vote and enjoy the show.

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Speaker 3: Cast. Hey, Jamie, want to come over and meet my tentacle?

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Speaker 3: Boyfriend who lives in my bed.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, as long as it's questionably not real and created

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Speaker 2: from all of the trauma you've accumulated from throughout your life.

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Speaker 2: Well duh, okay, good, that's most I mean, that's most

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Speaker 2: movie monsters. Right. You're just getting fucked to death by

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Speaker 2: your own trauma. That's the experience of life. So why

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Speaker 2: not have the guy who made ET create the monster

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Speaker 2: that fucks you to death?

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I didn't realize it was the same person.

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Speaker 2: Oh, a legend, Carlo Rambaldi. He also, I believe he

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Speaker 2: wasn't in charge of it because hr Geiger Gieger. Someone help.

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Speaker 2: I think it's Geiger, hr Geiger. But he's like an

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Speaker 2: hr Geiger guy Ger. And he also so made the

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Speaker 2: xenomorph an alien. Yeah, yeah, so he's Carla Embaldi's all

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Speaker 2: about a wet, little trauma monster, which is how I

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Speaker 2: describe ET kind of. I would love to get fucked

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Speaker 2: by my own trauma because then at least you know

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Speaker 2: you're getting something out of it.

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Speaker 3: Anyways, Welcome to the Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 2: Well that was a great introduction.

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Speaker 3: We nailed it. This is the Bechdel Cast, our show

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Speaker 3: where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens. I'm

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Speaker 3: Caitlyn Deronte. I don't think I introduced myself.

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Speaker 2: Oh, I'm Jamie Loftus. I'm the one that wanted to

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Speaker 2: get fucked by the monster. I can't speak for you, Caitlyn.

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Speaker 2: I can only speak for myself.

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Speaker 3: You know. Let me get back to you on that.

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Speaker 2: Okay. I went to the Academy Museum recently and I

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Speaker 2: saw the fish from the Shape of Water again and

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Speaker 2: I was like, that's not a trauma monster. That's that's

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Speaker 2: a fantasy monster. Fu.

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Speaker 3: Oh you also want to be fucked by?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and it really is pulled into sharp focus when

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Speaker 2: you see that he built to scale scale. But that

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Speaker 2: wasn't what I was trying to do.

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Speaker 3: Wow.

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Speaker 2: But you know what I mean. You know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: I love it when you get punny. I know, I

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Speaker 2: never see it coming. I think it's whenever I'm running

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Speaker 2: on very little sleep.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Well, in any case, it's the Possession episode. Guys. We're

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Speaker 2: so excited the time has come to cover the movie

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Speaker 2: Possession nineteen eighty one and we have an incredible guest

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Speaker 2: in the house. Oh wait, we should say what the

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Speaker 2: show is.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean intersectional feminist film analysis where we use

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Speaker 3: the Bechdel test simply as a jumping off point. But

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Speaker 3: what's that, I wonder.

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Speaker 2: Well, it actually is relevant to today's discussion, so we'll tell you.

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Speaker 2: The Bechtel test is a media metric creative by our

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Speaker 2: dear friend, friend of the show, Alison Bechdel, originally as

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Speaker 2: a joke in her comic that went from the eighties

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Speaker 2: into the two thousands called Mikes to Watch Out For

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Speaker 2: about how there is very little queer representation in movies,

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Speaker 2: specifically with women, but has since become a more mainstream metric.

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Speaker 2: Lots of versions of this test. The one we use

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Speaker 2: requires that there are two characters of a marginalized gender

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Speaker 2: with names who speak to each other about something other

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Speaker 2: than a man. This, I mean, I guess that a

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Speaker 2: lot of you know this is just a jumping off

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Speaker 2: point for discussion, But I was actually thinking about the test,

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Speaker 2: which is rare these days on the show, we're mostly

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Speaker 2: thinking about other things. But I was like, we don't

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Speaker 2: know how the trauma octopus identifies, you know, And is

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Speaker 2: that not a meaningful interaction? I certainly think.

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Speaker 3: So, I would say very meaningful. Now, Anna does refer

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Speaker 3: to her tentacle lover using him pronouns.

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Speaker 2: Oh, but well, okay, unless we're thinking that this, we're okay,

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Speaker 2: already overthinking it. Two minutes in us we're thinking that

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Speaker 2: Anna's misgendering her own trauma monster, which I certainly hope

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Speaker 2: she wouldn't. I think so highly of her. She's an icon,

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Speaker 2: she's a legend, she's an icon, she's the moment. She've

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Speaker 2: got her milk all over the place. I okay, let's okay,

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Speaker 2: we have an incredible guest. That's what the Bechdel test is,

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Speaker 2: whether you think it passes or not, sort of hinges

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Speaker 2: on how you gender this tentacle monster, because otherwise it's

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Speaker 2: a pretty solitary movie with a lot of men.

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Speaker 3: Exactly. But yes, let's get our guest in here. She

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Speaker 3: is a writer, illustrator, and editor specializing in horror film

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Speaker 3: inspired imagery. She's the creator of the Zene resident eesel

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Speaker 3: It's Alicia Burbank. Hello and welcome.

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Speaker 1: Hi. Thank you so much for having me on. I

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Speaker 1: love this show.

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Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, we love your work.

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Speaker 2: We really do. Thank you, and we're so excited that

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Speaker 2: you brought us. You brought us a little juicy bit

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Speaker 2: of gristle to talk about today. Yeah, what is your

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Speaker 2: history with Possession?

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Speaker 1: Oh, I was. I think a lot of us might

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Speaker 1: come to Possession all at the same time in our

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Speaker 1: lives when we're having like a rough time, when we're

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Speaker 1: talking about, you know, film with you know, someone we

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Speaker 1: look up to, or you know, like someone who's really

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Speaker 1: deep into the arts or whatever. This was circa twenty fifteen, twenty,

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Speaker 1: you know, just hinging on twenty sixteen when I was

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Speaker 1: just like, Oh, I'm so bored with everything I'm doing.

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Speaker 1: I want to get back into watching horror movies. What

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Speaker 1: do you recommend? And someone I just kind of peripherally

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Speaker 1: knew was like, well, there are all these new films

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Speaker 1: that are coming out that are just like newly available

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Speaker 1: to American audiences. Have you ever seen Possession? I was

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Speaker 1: like no, And he gave me a YouTube link, just

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Speaker 1: like go check it out. And this was yeah around

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Speaker 1: that time when I was just like glued to my

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Speaker 1: YouTube like watching this repeatedly, and it really changed my life,

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Speaker 1: this movie like Wow. And then after that I went

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Speaker 1: on to really study a lot more horror films. I

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Speaker 1: was a part of, very very briefly. I was a

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Speaker 1: part of a horror film podcast with two other dudes

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Speaker 1: and then left that one for probably obvious reasons during

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Speaker 1: twenty sixteen. Yeah, so it was like, I have a

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Speaker 1: past with this film. It really helped me find my voice,

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Speaker 1: so to speak.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Jamie, how about you? What's your relationship with it?

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Speaker 2: Also very particular. I saw this movie for the first

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Speaker 2: time a couple of years ago when I was going

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Speaker 2: through a terrible breakup with a guy that sort of

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Speaker 2: looks like a young Sam Neil if you tilt your head.

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Speaker 2: So it was very cathartic. I think I had heard

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Speaker 2: of this movie before because I think that the subway

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Speaker 2: scene is something that it's like one of those clips

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Speaker 2: that goes viral every six months, and so I had

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Speaker 2: seen that scene before and I'm like, I like this,

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Speaker 2: but I never followed up on like what it is.

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Speaker 2: And then Yeah, it was when I was seeking a

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Speaker 2: cathartic breakup movie to watch a couple of years ago

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Speaker 2: that I was like, Oh, it's it's time. It's time

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Speaker 2: to watch Possession. And I mean, I don't wish a

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Speaker 2: horrible breakup on anyone, but if you've got to go

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Speaker 2: through one, this movie is it's And I've seen this

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Speaker 2: opinion repeated because it is such a brutal movie. But

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Speaker 2: I found it so comforting at the time that I

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Speaker 2: saw it, because it's just like, especially if you're watching

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Speaker 2: this movie in a way that is just washing over you,

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Speaker 2: which is not how we analyze movies here, but I

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Speaker 2: it was. It just felt awesome to see like such

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Speaker 2: intense and irrational pain, just like fully committed in the

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Speaker 2: performances and all of the creative choices. I don't know,

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Speaker 2: it felt weirdly validating for how out of my mind

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Speaker 2: I felt while having to you know, like you have

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Speaker 2: to continue to act like a person, and these people

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Speaker 2: are not acting like people at all. I just I

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Speaker 2: found it to be a very very cathartic breakup movie.

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Speaker 2: So I think, I mean it was during a difficult time,

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Speaker 2: which is like, bik, how a lot of people come

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Speaker 2: to this movie, like you're saying, But I found it

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Speaker 2: very soothing, and so I think I watched it like

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Speaker 2: I think I watched it twice during like the height

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Speaker 2: of that breakup, and then I've returned to it twice

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Speaker 2: since in the years that came after, And so this

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Speaker 2: was my first time watching it critically and also like

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Speaker 2: learning more about the filmmaking process, and I mean you

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Speaker 2: can tell like where this movie takes place. It takes

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Speaker 2: place in Berlin in the early eighties, so it's like

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Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about the director at all, but

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Speaker 2: specifically how political this movie is, because I was so

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Speaker 2: distracted by the Tentacle Porn, but not this time. This

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Speaker 2: time I was ready for the Tentacle porn and ready

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Speaker 2: to think about the cold and feminism and.

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Speaker 3: A director's who abuse power.

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Speaker 2: So there's so much to talk about, but just yeah,

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Speaker 2: strictly on my first watch. It also was like the

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Speaker 2: exact right time the movie found me when I needed it. Caitlyn,

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Speaker 2: what's your history with this movie?

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Speaker 3: I had never seen it until prepping for this episode,

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Speaker 3: nor was it really on my radar. As I've said

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Speaker 3: in the past, I'm like not the biggest horror person.

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Speaker 3: It's sort of the genre that I am least acquainted with.

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Speaker 3: Over the years, I've seen more and more so I've

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Speaker 3: seen like a decent handful of the classics at this point,

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Speaker 3: but this one just like wasn't even on my radar.

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Speaker 2: It's still pretty culty. I think, yeah, that must be.

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Speaker 3: It had no idea that Sam Neil was in it,

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Speaker 3: doctor Alan Grant himself.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I will have to say I don't like

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Speaker 2: the character of doctor Alan Grant. I just like so

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Speaker 2: it never occurred to me to think of Sam Neil

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Speaker 2: as attractive. But I mean, obviously his character is terrible,

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Speaker 2: but he is hot in this movie to me. And

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Speaker 2: I was like surprised because I just found I hate

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Speaker 2: I think I hate the character of doctor Alan Grant.

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Speaker 2: That's like, because why is your define You're defining characteristic

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Speaker 2: as you hate children and at the end of the

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Speaker 2: movie you kind of don't. I hate that arc. I

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Speaker 2: hate that arc. But what about Mark who hates his

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Speaker 2: kid the whole time?

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Speaker 3: I mean, but but also kind of likes him more

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Speaker 3: at the end.

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Speaker 2: I don't think so, I see, I I have a

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Speaker 2: I have some hot takes on on these parents. They're

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Speaker 2: bad they I mean, they're bad parents. Wow, I guess

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Speaker 2: that's not a hot take. They're bad parents here first

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Speaker 2: they are? Yeah, this is like I also like watching

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Speaker 2: it this time. I was like, damn, if this is

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Speaker 2: what divorce feels like, I'm getting unengaged, not worth it.

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Speaker 3: Uh. Yeah, it was such a wild watch. I had

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Speaker 3: no idea. I thought it would be more demonic possession

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Speaker 3: based on the title alone, and there's definitely some supernatural

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Speaker 3: stuff happening. There's a creature. There's sort of a suggestion

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Speaker 3: that it's kind of religious maybe, but not really not

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Speaker 3: in the way that like the Exorcist, store movies like

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Speaker 3: that deal with demonic possession.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like completely all over the place. And I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I was relieved when I was like doing research for

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Speaker 2: this that it doesn't seem like there is any definitive

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Speaker 2: read of this movie because it's just like it's just

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Speaker 2: throwing shit out there and like you sort of latch

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Speaker 2: on to it's.

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Speaker 3: Throwing tentacles at the wall and seeing what sticks. And

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Speaker 3: I just don't quite know. I was like, am I

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Speaker 3: not like I'm not getting the metaphor.

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Speaker 2: Really, I don't think you're supposed to, that's the thing.

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Speaker 3: It's like, yeah, okay, okay, good. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Because as I was watching it this time, I'm like,

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Speaker 2: I don't know if this movie is like necessarily quote

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Speaker 2: unquote good by ordinary metrics, but I know how it

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Speaker 2: makes me feel, and it makes me feel like punching

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Speaker 2: a wall.

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Speaker 3: You know. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I think a lot of people do kind of correlate

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Speaker 1: his work with Lynch or you know, someone where you

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Speaker 1: are looking more at symbols and how things make you

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Speaker 1: feel and you know, like metaphysical properties, and I don't know,

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Speaker 1: meditate on it a bit and maybe you'll get something

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Speaker 1: that contributes to your life, you know. And I even

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Speaker 1: feel like maybe that's what Zulaski was thinking when he

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Speaker 1: was making it, yeah.

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Speaker 3: Right, and making it like post divorce, and he was

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Speaker 3: like really distraught about a divorce he had gone through.

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Speaker 2: And he was like sort of an expatriate, like he

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Speaker 2: was like a strange from it from Poland. And I

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Speaker 2: just I didn't realize like that. I knew that this

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Speaker 2: was a divorce movie, because I mean, it stands to reason,

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Speaker 2: but yeah, I didn't realize how we'll talk about that

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Speaker 2: in the discussion. But like how he had been basically

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Speaker 2: like booted from the Polish film industry because of his politics. Scary,

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Speaker 2: probably a sign of things to come. Instructive filmmakers take note, Yeah,

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Speaker 2: you can still make possession even when you get kicked

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Speaker 2: out of your country.

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Speaker 3: Well, let's take a quick break and then we'll come

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Speaker 3: back for the recap. Yeah, all right, So here's the recap.

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Speaker 3: We'll place a content warning for intimate partner abuse and

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Speaker 3: suicide and goo. If you're disturbed by a lot of goo,

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Speaker 3: because there's a lot of that in the movie.

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Speaker 2: You could probably still watch the first half. If you're

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Speaker 2: not into goo, you get surprisingly far into the movie

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Speaker 2: without goo. Yeah, so don't be totally put off.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So we are in West Berlin in the early eighties.

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Speaker 3: A man named Mark played by Sam Neil reunites with

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Speaker 3: his wife Anna played by Isabelle A Johnny and their

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Speaker 3: young son Bob. And it's really weird to me to

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Speaker 3: see a little boy, like a five year old boy

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Speaker 3: named Bob.

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Speaker 2: I was, yeah, already, I was like, these parrots are

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Speaker 2: weird to name your I was like, was that a

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Speaker 2: thing in the eighties? I don't think so.

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Speaker 3: I feel like it would have been Bobby, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Right right, I don't know. Yeah, it's like meeting a

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Speaker 2: baby named Linda. You're just like, what, this is a

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Speaker 2: grown up name. This isn't for babies.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Anyway, So Mark returns home. He's an international spy.

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Speaker 3: He was away doing like Cold war espionage stuff.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what did every I sort of like, because it's

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Speaker 2: so easy to forget that he's a spy because not

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Speaker 2: only does he quit his job immediately, he's he's doing

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Speaker 2: quote unquote spy work when he's stalking his own wife.

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Speaker 2: But he's so bad at it and every time I like,

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Speaker 2: it's one of like the dream like things. I'm assuming

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Speaker 2: is intended, but who knows.

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Speaker 3: Uh.

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Speaker 2: It's like every time someone from his work comes up

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Speaker 2: to him, they're like, you're the best buy in the world,

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Speaker 2: and it's like, but we're watching him do such shoddy

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Speaker 2: work that you're like, no, he's not.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Is that what it's like to be a man where

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Speaker 2: you're just being told you're amazing all the time, and

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Speaker 2: meanwhile you have no fucking clue what you're doing.

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Speaker 1: I don't know exactly, I think so a full disclosure.

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Speaker 1: I did read a little book on this called Possession

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Speaker 1: by Alison Taylor. It's like a part of this Devil's

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Speaker 1: Advocate series. It's almost like thirty three and a third

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Speaker 1: but for horror aficionados.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's so cool.

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Speaker 1: I know. I didn't. I just discovered it, but yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're out of England.

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Speaker 3: You can find them online.

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Speaker 1: But in those books, she did a little bit of

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Speaker 1: research and found that it was more like this whole

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Speaker 1: espionage thing is supposed to be a joke. It's supposed

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Speaker 1: to be making fun of what you see in movies

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Speaker 1: and like kind of getting meta about it, like does

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Speaker 1: this man where you know pink socks. It's like, it's

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Speaker 1: supposed to be ridiculous. It's supposed to be silly and

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Speaker 1: a little bit of like like Charlie Chaplin esque when

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Speaker 1: the spies are like trying to Yeah, he's poking fun

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Speaker 1: at this whole idea that we're like spying on each other.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, okay that makes sense. Yeah wait, sorry, what

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Speaker 2: was the name of that book again?

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Speaker 1: It's just Possession, but it's called, like the whole series

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Speaker 1: is called Devil's Advocates.

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Speaker 3: Okay, cool.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so they all have this like black background with

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Speaker 1: the and then it's still from the film and they're tiny.

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Speaker 1: They're like, like I said, like the thirty three and

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Speaker 1: a third series that rocks.

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Speaker 3: Very cool. We'll link those in the description of the episode. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: So yeah, that's Mark. He's a bad spy and he

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Speaker 3: and Anna are having marital troubles. She wants to split up,

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Speaker 3: but she can't really say why. She doesn't really know

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Speaker 3: why she's feeling the way she is, though, she insists

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Speaker 3: that she has not been cheating on Mark, and.

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Speaker 2: Mark immediately proves that this is a good decision she's

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Speaker 2: made because he responds emotionally and physically abusive instantly, and

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Speaker 2: so you're like, well, if there is any doubt about

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Speaker 2: whether this is a good person to be with, there

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Speaker 2: it is. And yeah, right.

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Speaker 3: Then Mark goes to a meeting with his bosses and

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Speaker 3: he quits his job, citing family as the reason. I

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Speaker 3: guess he's trying to repair his marriage and leave being

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Speaker 3: a spy behind. But Anna isn't there when he returns

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Speaker 3: home to their apartment, but she does call and confirm

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Speaker 3: his suspicions that she is seeing someone else, a man

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Speaker 3: named Heinrich, and that he gives her more sexual pleasure

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Speaker 3: than Mark ever did. And he's like, oh okay.

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Speaker 2: And then you meet Heinrich and you're like, damn, I

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Speaker 2: would I would lose it as well if you're like,

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Speaker 2: this is the guy, no, no, no, I If I'm Mark,

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Speaker 2: I'm like, this is the guy? You know?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly for sure. So then Anna and Mark meet

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Speaker 3: up at a cafe to discuss their separation. Anna wants

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Speaker 3: to keep their apartment Mark does not want to see

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Speaker 3: their little son Bob for fear of like fucking him

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Speaker 3: up emotionally.

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Speaker 2: This is where I feel I wonder like if this

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Speaker 2: is where the audience is supposed to lose any potential,

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Speaker 2: Like I mean, ideally, when he is physically abusive to

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Speaker 2: his wife, that is the moment where you are like,

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Speaker 2: fuck this guy forever. But I, you know, made by

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Speaker 2: a man in the eighties, I'm not so sure. I

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Speaker 2: feel like the moment where you are supposed to lose him,

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Speaker 2: even in the early eighties, is when he's like so

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Speaker 2: quick to be like, well, I don't want to see

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Speaker 2: my son anymore to like prove a point, which again

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Speaker 2: is like something that kind of just goes away eventually.

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Speaker 2: But I thought it was very whatever telling that he yeah,

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Speaker 2: he's very he's a bad parent. He was so quick

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Speaker 2: to be like, okay, well if it proves my point,

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Speaker 2: fuck my small son that we named Bob, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: he's already having a hard enough time. His name's Bob.

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Speaker 2: He's seven.

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Speaker 3: If that I've thought he was like four or five little,

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Speaker 3: but yeah, he is ready to abandon his son forever.

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Speaker 3: And Anna is appalled at this, and things become violent

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Speaker 3: and he chases after her. Cut to Mark on a bender.

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Speaker 3: He's drinking heavily, he's filthy, he's mentally and physically unwell.

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Speaker 2: It's been three weeks.

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Speaker 3: Then he kind of gets his act together, not really

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Speaker 3: but enough to like return turned to the apartment and

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Speaker 3: little Bob is there, all messy and sticky because Anna

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Speaker 3: has left him there alone. Not sure for how long,

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Speaker 3: maybe a few hours, but Mark gets him cleaned up,

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Speaker 3: and Anna eventually does return, and Mark, who is being

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Speaker 3: extremely obsessive and possessive, maybe he feels possession over Anna.

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Speaker 3: He's like, I can't live without you. We need to

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Speaker 3: be together as a family. You have to call Heinrich

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Speaker 3: and tell him it's over. God.

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Speaker 2: Mark is just like ooh ooh, I hate him so much.

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Speaker 2: It's so satisfying, Like the the sam Neil performance, I

391
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Speaker 2: feel like it's all so good. I didn't realize that

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Speaker 2: I like learned this in the research process that they're

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Speaker 2: they're doing a very specific style of polish acting. That

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Speaker 2: is like turning everything up to a fifteen. That was

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Speaker 2: at the request of the director, which is why you

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Speaker 2: don't really see any other Sam Neil performances remotely like this,

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Speaker 2: but like they're pulling from a very specific playbook. But

398
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Speaker 2: just how like he quits his job and then refuse it, Like,

399
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Speaker 2: at no point is this man ever going to reflect.

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Speaker 2: It's just like an act of yeah, like aggression toward

401
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Speaker 2: getting what he wants. And yeah, he deserves to die.

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Speaker 3: Does she know she did nothing wrong? Maybe?

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Speaker 2: And Bob, you know he spoiler alert he survives to

404
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Speaker 2: the end, but he's fucked for sure. Oh yeah, it's

405
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Speaker 2: just there's no coming back from that. No.

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Speaker 3: I usually don't read the Wikipedia synopsis because I'm like,

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Speaker 3: I did a great job at this. I don't need confirmation.

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Speaker 3: But because I didn't really understand a lot of what

409
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Speaker 3: happens in this movie, I was like, maybe I'll read

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Speaker 3: it and just like check my work.

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Speaker 2: Oh is he supposed to die?

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Speaker 3: It says on Wikipedia at least that he goes into

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Speaker 3: the bathtub to drown himself. Yes, Bob, so my I

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Speaker 3: don't know.

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Speaker 1: I upon reading, like and pon watching it this time around. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: when I first saw this, I was like, oh my god,

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Speaker 1: that's really dark at the end. I hate, like, sorry

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Speaker 1: that we're jumping to the end. But I do think

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Speaker 1: part of it is what we're talking about right now,

420
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Speaker 1: where the instance where Mark comes back and is cleaning

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Speaker 1: him up and he's going like, oh, he's like hit

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Speaker 1: a new world record with deep sea diving in the

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Speaker 1: bathtub because he's holding his breath, he's like playing. I

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Speaker 1: feel at the end he has become so avoidant that

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Speaker 1: the game he is playing becomes reality that he jumps

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Speaker 1: into the tub to play and inadvertently dies. Okay, Like,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to see this. I don't want to

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Speaker 1: see this. I want to go into my fantasy world,

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Speaker 1: which is in the tub, which is safe and comforting.

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Speaker 1: But then, yeah, I think that's to me, that's what

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Speaker 1: happens that track.

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Speaker 2: That makes sense to me. I mean yeah, I was like,

433
00:23:59,200 --> 00:24:02,880
Speaker 2: I don't think that's necessarily clear. But also so much

434
00:24:02,920 --> 00:24:06,760
Speaker 2: of this movie isn't that does? That does make sense?

435
00:24:06,800 --> 00:24:11,000
Speaker 2: And wow, way to add something horrifically tragic in literally

436
00:24:11,000 --> 00:24:12,639
Speaker 2: the last thirty seconds of the movie.

437
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,640
Speaker 1: I know, I know, Jesus, it's either that or the apocalypse.

438
00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 1: So I suppose maybe a bathtub is better than the apocalypse.

439
00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:20,560
Speaker 2: Who knows.

440
00:24:21,480 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 3: Seems like everyone was gonna die anyway.

441
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, bleak okay. Ex nineteen eighty one in Germany baby.

442
00:24:32,600 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 3: So anyway, Mark is begging Anna to end things with Heinrich,

443
00:24:37,880 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 3: and she seems like maybe she'll comply with his request,

444
00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 3: but she leaves again to go stay with Heinrich, and

445
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,439
Speaker 3: Mark is trying to figure out where Heinrich is using

446
00:24:49,480 --> 00:24:52,399
Speaker 3: his spy skills, I guess, but he's like, again, not

447
00:24:52,400 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 3: doing a good job because he just calls Anna's friend

448
00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:57,959
Speaker 3: Margie all the time to be like where is Anna?

449
00:24:58,280 --> 00:25:00,440
Speaker 3: And it's like, aren't you a spy? What do you doing?

450
00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: Right?

451
00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 3: Anyway?

452
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:06,080
Speaker 2: And Margie, we don't. I don't know what the hell

453
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:11,199
Speaker 2: is going on with Margie. She is. It's almost like

454
00:25:11,840 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: this guy cannot It's like I will write one woman character,

455
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:18,439
Speaker 2: but certainly not truly, because Margie is sort of just

456
00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,439
Speaker 2: slipping and sliding around. She says a couple of things,

457
00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:23,280
Speaker 2: but mostly she's just falling down.

458
00:25:23,680 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, so much so that she broke her foot at

459
00:25:25,520 --> 00:25:28,600
Speaker 1: some point off camera we don't see, right, she comes in.

460
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 3: Just hobbling around on.

461
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 2: The broken foot, like I thought you meant the actor.

462
00:25:33,000 --> 00:25:34,560
Speaker 2: I was like, oh Jesus Christ.

463
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: All we know about her is that she's like accident

464
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: prone and you know, yeah, flirtatious and she gets.

465
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:44,639
Speaker 3: One of those casts that has like a high heel

466
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,200
Speaker 3: kind of built.

467
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 2: Into it, which I'm kind of into that. Also, we're told,

468
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 2: and again I'm assuming this is intentional, but I also

469
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,800
Speaker 2: don't understand why, which is not the last time we'll

470
00:25:58,800 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 2: be saying that. But we're told that she is Anna's

471
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 2: best friend, but I don't think we ever see them talk.

472
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,160
Speaker 2: And if she is Anna's best friend, she's a terrible friend.

473
00:26:08,200 --> 00:26:10,959
Speaker 2: She's always just trying to fuck her abusive husband. Yeah,

474
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: so it's I don't know, I'm really bizarre. And this

475
00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 2: is like Zelawski. I will talk about his personal life

476
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:21,040
Speaker 2: and his approach to working with actors as well, but like,

477
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 2: this is the kind of movie you watch and you're like, well,

478
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 2: this guy doesn't understand women at all, And then you

479
00:26:26,800 --> 00:26:29,919
Speaker 2: look at his personal life section on Wikipedia and you're like,

480
00:26:29,960 --> 00:26:33,440
Speaker 2: and he never figured it out and he never did.

481
00:26:33,480 --> 00:26:36,639
Speaker 2: But yeah, Margie, I can't account for Margie.

482
00:26:37,840 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 3: Nah, no one can. Yeah. Anyway, So Mark is trying

483
00:26:43,600 --> 00:26:47,399
Speaker 3: to locate this heinrich guy. Meanwhile, he's a single dad

484
00:26:47,480 --> 00:26:49,960
Speaker 3: now kind of, and so he has to drop off

485
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:54,000
Speaker 3: his son Bob at school, and he mistakes the school

486
00:26:54,040 --> 00:27:00,120
Speaker 3: teacher Helen for Anna in a wig, but she is

487
00:27:00,119 --> 00:27:03,679
Speaker 3: is played by the same actor as Anna Isabella Johnny.

488
00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:08,000
Speaker 3: So he's not wrong, Like this person is some strange

489
00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 3: doppelganger of Anna.

490
00:27:10,800 --> 00:27:13,280
Speaker 2: Right, who does all of the things that he thinks

491
00:27:13,400 --> 00:27:17,800
Speaker 2: is wrong with his actual wife, where she's very nurturing.

492
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 2: She's like quick to reassure him, like yeah, you know,

493
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 2: she's very like she's yeah, he's cooking there, but again

494
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 2: I don't quite get shrug. Yeah.

495
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:35,479
Speaker 3: Then Mark goes to Heinrich's house and so we meet Heinrich.

496
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 3: He's played by Heinz Bennett. But Anna isn't there, and

497
00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 3: Heinrich is. He's making some choices. He's very touchy feely.

498
00:27:44,400 --> 00:27:47,520
Speaker 3: He's like, relax, we don't have to be enemies.

499
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:49,840
Speaker 2: He's a real he's a real piece of work. He's

500
00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:50,480
Speaker 2: like he's a shit.

501
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 1: Yeah.

502
00:27:51,440 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 2: And there are all of these because he also has

503
00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:58,600
Speaker 2: said that he's like ditched his family. He's like a

504
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 2: fuck machine. But he with his mom and like doesn't

505
00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:06,600
Speaker 2: there's just so many bizarro elements of Heinrich.

506
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:13,119
Speaker 1: Yeah, he wears spirituality like a costume just to seem fuckable,

507
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:16,919
Speaker 1: to seem more emotionally in tune. With women, and I

508
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:20,400
Speaker 1: really think that Zulawski was probably burned by a guy

509
00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,359
Speaker 1: just like this, and that's why this guy is so ridiculous.

510
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, there do feel like certain elements of the divorce.

511
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:29,879
Speaker 2: If you're just focusing on the divorce narrative and like

512
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,760
Speaker 2: stay away from the doppelgegers of the tentacle port and

513
00:28:33,160 --> 00:28:35,600
Speaker 2: all the other stuff going on, it does feel like

514
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,320
Speaker 2: this guy is too specific to not be referencing someone

515
00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:41,120
Speaker 2: he actually knew exactly.

516
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 3: He also, Heinrich also has a lot of books, and

517
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 3: it seems like he was maybe trying to like enlighten

518
00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 3: Anna through all of his knowledge from books and so,

519
00:28:52,000 --> 00:28:55,120
Speaker 3: not that that's a bad thing necessarily, but in this context,

520
00:28:55,560 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 3: it's like you're it's like disingenuous, silly, simple woman who

521
00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 3: doesn't understand the world, So let me educate.

522
00:29:02,600 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 2: You, right, which is like such a I don't know. Unfortunately,

523
00:29:06,400 --> 00:29:09,840
Speaker 2: who among us hasn't gone from one abuse of relationship

524
00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:14,160
Speaker 2: to a different kind of bad relationship indeed exactly.

525
00:29:15,400 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 3: So anyway, Mark is there confronting Heinrich, and he's furious,

526
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,080
Speaker 3: so they end up arguing and brawling, although mostly it's

527
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:29,360
Speaker 3: Heinrich kicking Mark's ass and so Mark returns home. Anna

528
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,440
Speaker 3: is back. Like ninety percent of this movie is just

529
00:29:32,520 --> 00:29:36,960
Speaker 3: like people returning home, and sometimes the one spouse is there,

530
00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,800
Speaker 3: sometimes they aren't. It's just a lot of coming and going.

531
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:45,320
Speaker 3: But for now Anna is back and she's expressing how

532
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:49,760
Speaker 3: conflicted she feels about different things, though she declares once

533
00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:52,440
Speaker 3: again that she does want to leave Mark for good.

534
00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 3: And they're screaming at each other and it becomes very

535
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 3: physically abusive and Anna runs out. Mark chases after her.

536
00:30:02,160 --> 00:30:05,760
Speaker 3: Either he bumps into Anna's friend Margie or maybe he

537
00:30:05,840 --> 00:30:08,520
Speaker 3: has like asked her to come over.

538
00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:10,320
Speaker 2: And then she says one of my favorite lines in

539
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 2: the movie, which is something akin to like I love

540
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:13,600
Speaker 2: to see you in pain.

541
00:30:14,160 --> 00:30:15,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, because they hate each other.

542
00:30:15,880 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 2: They do, yeah, but it's like a little but it

543
00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 2: turns her on how much she hates him, right, which

544
00:30:22,920 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 2: is like okay, maybe sure, like sure it's happened, right,

545
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 2: but it's just her character is so weird, so such

546
00:30:32,080 --> 00:30:33,160
Speaker 2: a such a weird lady.

547
00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:36,440
Speaker 3: Yeah. But she comes over to help with Bob because

548
00:30:36,600 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 3: Mark is just not doing a good job as a parent.

549
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 3: And then Mark hires a private detective to follow Anna

550
00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 3: to see what she's up to despite the fact that

551
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,320
Speaker 3: Mark is a spy and you'd think he could do this.

552
00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 3: Not that I'm like advocating for a man to stalk

553
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:56,880
Speaker 3: his wife, but I'm like, why aren't you using your

554
00:30:56,880 --> 00:30:57,600
Speaker 3: skills anyway?

555
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: Right, he hires someone else. It's funny, like yeah, and

556
00:31:02,080 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 2: also just like another such a clear indicator that he

557
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:07,120
Speaker 2: does not actually care about Anna at all, because she's

558
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: clearly having an episode of some sort. And what is

559
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:17,280
Speaker 2: going to exacerbate an episode, but actual surveillance like that

560
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,880
Speaker 2: is going to heighten any feeling of paranoid that she's

561
00:31:19,880 --> 00:31:23,320
Speaker 2: clearly already experiencing. It's just like you really want to

562
00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 2: push him off the top of a building for that.

563
00:31:25,680 --> 00:31:31,160
Speaker 3: One, you certainly do. So Anna once again returns home.

564
00:31:32,080 --> 00:31:36,320
Speaker 3: Mark is desperate for her to communicate with him and

565
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,640
Speaker 3: to understand what's going on, but she's like kind of

566
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 3: too busy slicing up some meat with an electric meat carver.

567
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 2: And that's definitely not a like metaphor for whatever, right,

568
00:31:52,720 --> 00:31:54,760
Speaker 2: it's just making raw meat really tiny.

569
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,959
Speaker 3: And then she uses this electric meat carver to cut

570
00:32:01,000 --> 00:32:02,880
Speaker 3: her neck a little bit. It seems like she might

571
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:07,959
Speaker 3: be attempting suicide, but Mark stops her and treats her wound,

572
00:32:08,240 --> 00:32:10,600
Speaker 3: and things have calmed down a.

573
00:32:10,520 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 2: Bit, and he also like attempts to injure himself too, Yes, yeah,

574
00:32:15,880 --> 00:32:20,320
Speaker 2: which I feel like is again another like yeah, he's

575
00:32:20,360 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 2: trying to do something there, like I don't know, but

576
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:27,760
Speaker 2: but Mark. Mark's attempts to empathize with Anna are so

577
00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,960
Speaker 2: half hearted and misguided that he's like, oh, I want

578
00:32:32,960 --> 00:32:36,160
Speaker 2: to feel the physical pain that you're feeling, because that

579
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 2: is like more comfortable than me actually giving a fuck

580
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:42,160
Speaker 2: off like what you're feeling or going through. Yeah.

581
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: I also felt like he was just acting like a

582
00:32:44,840 --> 00:32:48,080
Speaker 1: complete child for most of this too. He's just like,

583
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 1: you know, like, oh, you did it, I'm going to

584
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,840
Speaker 1: do it too, And I don't know she and she

585
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 1: doesn't help him, like she sees him cutting himself and

586
00:32:57,040 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 1: she's like I'm out and he's like it doesn't hurt.

587
00:32:59,680 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 1: She's like, no, it doesn't hurt. And that was that

588
00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 1: was one moment where I was like whoa, Like you're

589
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,600
Speaker 1: both acknowledging that this torture that you're putting each other

590
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:10,080
Speaker 1: through actually is like, oh, I don't feel anything at

591
00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:12,240
Speaker 1: all for you for this.

592
00:33:12,320 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 3: Like yeah, yeah, it's wild.

593
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was like I feel like it's one of

594
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 2: the reads of it is that, like they're whatever, all

595
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:24,960
Speaker 2: the physical pain they're experiencing is our divorce feelings, and

596
00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 2: that's like part of the reason that they're heightening their

597
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 2: actions so much is because it's like so hard to

598
00:33:30,720 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 2: feel anything for each other, which is that's that's dark

599
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:41,480
Speaker 2: divorce heads sound off in the chat. It seems bad.

600
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, so you'll never believe this. But Anna leaves again.

601
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 3: She's always coming.

602
00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 2: And going, that's kind of her thing.

603
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:53,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, And that detective who Mark had hired follows her

604
00:33:53,960 --> 00:33:56,920
Speaker 3: and discovers that she's been renting an apartment in this

605
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,000
Speaker 3: like derelict building. So he knocks on the door, pretend

606
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 3: to be like from the building manager's office, and he

607
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:06,800
Speaker 3: looks around and he finds something very disturbing unclear at

608
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 3: this point exactly what we're seeing, but it's some creature

609
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:16,279
Speaker 3: that's bloody and gooey. Then Anna kills the detective with

610
00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:20,719
Speaker 3: a broken wine bottle. So things have taken a turn

611
00:34:20,960 --> 00:34:23,000
Speaker 3: that I certainly was not expecting.

612
00:34:23,800 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 2: You never forget your first time seeing the big guy

613
00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:29,280
Speaker 2: guy or murdered.

614
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:36,280
Speaker 3: Right, yeah, right exactly. Meanwhile, at home, Bob's teacher, Helen

615
00:34:36,560 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 3: aka the Anna doppelganger, shows up, and Mark is like,

616
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 3: here finished giving my son a bath. Because Heinrich also

617
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,359
Speaker 3: shows up. He's acting very weird. He's flopping all over

618
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 3: the place. I'm not sure if he's supposed to be

619
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 3: drunk or something.

620
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,960
Speaker 2: But he's I think he's always like some manner of

621
00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 2: fucked up.

622
00:34:56,120 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

623
00:34:56,600 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: He takes a lot of drugs too, right, Yeah, And.

624
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 3: He went to know where Anna is and Mark is

625
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 3: basically like, get out of here, bitch, I'm not afraid

626
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 3: of you anymore. Then Mark and Helen chat a little

627
00:35:12,239 --> 00:35:15,879
Speaker 3: bit first about Bob, and then Mark says something where

628
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 3: he's like women are evil and Helen's like I'm right here.

629
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:24,759
Speaker 2: Right well. And it's also like implied and this is

630
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 2: where I was like, oh god, where where is my

631
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,760
Speaker 2: high school history education? Like where did it go? Where

632
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:36,600
Speaker 2: she implies that she is from East Germany and is

633
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:38,759
Speaker 2: now in West Germany, and there is like this whole

634
00:35:38,800 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 2: political aspect to her identity that I genuinely don't think

635
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:46,000
Speaker 2: I know enough about to say exactly what he's getting at,

636
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:49,880
Speaker 2: but that she it's implying basically that she has seen

637
00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 2: horror so much worse than what she's She's sort of like,

638
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:58,319
Speaker 2: shut the fuck up, like I've seen people die, which

639
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,160
Speaker 2: I kind of appreciate. Yeah, but then she still is

640
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:05,960
Speaker 2: That's really the only moment that she really pushes back

641
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:10,840
Speaker 2: on Mark in any significant way. So I found her again.

642
00:36:10,880 --> 00:36:14,960
Speaker 2: I like whatever that is. I like it, but it

643
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 2: felt like it was like dipping its toe into doing something.

644
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 2: But then she becomes very docile and kind of submissive

645
00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 2: to what he wants after that, So it's weird that

646
00:36:25,920 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 2: that only happens once. I don't know.

647
00:36:28,400 --> 00:36:31,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, she also says something to the effect of like, Okay,

648
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 1: she says, the only thing in common with women is

649
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:41,839
Speaker 1: like menstruation, which okay, but then yeah, exactly. But then

650
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 1: she says something to the effect of like, you're kind

651
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 1: of only getting angry because you don't understand freedom, and

652
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,360
Speaker 1: it's sort of like you are the problem here, buddy,

653
00:36:53,680 --> 00:36:57,399
Speaker 1: Like you're getting mad at her for being a free person, yeah,

654
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:01,919
Speaker 1: like for for having agency and sort of I saw

655
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,400
Speaker 1: again there where he was being a child and the

656
00:37:04,440 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 1: teachers stepping in and being like no, no, no, you're

657
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:09,560
Speaker 1: actually the asshole in this situation.

658
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, And then it's just like so bizarre that that

659
00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 2: is sort of dropped to the bitter end of the movie.

660
00:37:19,280 --> 00:37:22,400
Speaker 2: She's sort of just like doing whatever the plot needs

661
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,520
Speaker 2: her to do. It seems, yeah, it's.

662
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:29,560
Speaker 3: Weird, including immediately after this, they get naked together and

663
00:37:29,680 --> 00:37:32,200
Speaker 3: lie down next to each other, and it's unclear if

664
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 3: they end up having sex, but she's I.

665
00:37:34,719 --> 00:37:38,320
Speaker 2: Don't think they. I've read some theories about like Mark

666
00:37:38,520 --> 00:37:42,719
Speaker 2: in general, about like how Mark feels about sex and

667
00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:45,799
Speaker 2: about women in general, where there are reads of this

668
00:37:45,880 --> 00:37:51,480
Speaker 2: movie where Mark is thought to be closeted and instead

669
00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 2: of and this is like not a read that I

670
00:37:54,080 --> 00:37:56,279
Speaker 2: have necessarily, but it wasn't something that occurred to me

671
00:37:56,320 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 2: before I was going through this viewing. Is that Mark,

672
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:03,319
Speaker 2: I mean, part of it seems like Anna's issue with

673
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 2: the marriage is that, like she's not satisfied sexually. There

674
00:38:07,239 --> 00:38:11,799
Speaker 2: are a series of times where Mark doesn't have Well.

675
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 2: The real sort of thing that this hinges on is

676
00:38:14,200 --> 00:38:17,960
Speaker 2: there are three shots. I didn't notice it until this viewing.

677
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 2: There's three sort of very similar shots in the movie

678
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 2: that happened with each member of the family where it's

679
00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:30,640
Speaker 2: like it's first with Mark holding Bob when he's not

680
00:38:30,719 --> 00:38:32,759
Speaker 2: wearing a shirt. It's not a sexual thing at all,

681
00:38:32,800 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 2: but he's just like looking at his son. And then

682
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 2: there's later an identical shot where he looks at Anna

683
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:40,080
Speaker 2: in the exact same way, in the exact same shot,

684
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 2: which I think is meant to imply that he doesn't

685
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:47,439
Speaker 2: view her sexually, he just but also you could view

686
00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,919
Speaker 2: that as like she he views her as his quote

687
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:54,160
Speaker 2: unquote property, the way he views his son as his property.

688
00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 2: And so like, there's all of these I did see

689
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 2: reads of this that thought that Bob was closeted. I

690
00:38:59,400 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 2: don't really think that, but I do think that he

691
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 2: he has no idea how he feels about anything, which

692
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:08,840
Speaker 2: is true for a lot of people, and reacts with

693
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:11,000
Speaker 2: violence instead. But this was the first time that I

694
00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: really noticed that. And then there's a shot where, oh

695
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:15,760
Speaker 2: my gosh, what is the last version of that shot?

696
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:19,480
Speaker 2: I think it's towards the end, Anna looking at Anna

697
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,799
Speaker 2: looking at Mark with the same sort of like I

698
00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 2: don't know, like I don't even know how to describe

699
00:39:24,680 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 2: that look.

700
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, the read I had on it this time was

701
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,960
Speaker 1: that the first shot of Mark looking at Bob and

702
00:39:31,960 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 1: holding him that way is like you are my creation.

703
00:39:34,520 --> 00:39:36,840
Speaker 1: You know, like you're my son. And then him looking

704
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:39,840
Speaker 1: at Anna is a similar way of like Adam and

705
00:39:39,960 --> 00:39:42,799
Speaker 1: Eve like you are part of me, like from my

706
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 1: rib type thing. And I'm going totally biblical on this

707
00:39:47,040 --> 00:39:50,760
Speaker 1: just because I grew up in an awful like evangelical

708
00:39:50,960 --> 00:39:54,680
Speaker 1: like that's my upbringing, so I can't like unsee some

709
00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:58,040
Speaker 1: of these things. But then when she's looking at him

710
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,319
Speaker 1: and she takes off his shirt and she looks him

711
00:40:00,360 --> 00:40:03,359
Speaker 1: and she's like, I am God is in me, It's like,

712
00:40:03,360 --> 00:40:07,520
Speaker 1: oh fuck, like I am the creator. We don't really

713
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:10,719
Speaker 1: know this about her just yet when she says that,

714
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 1: but it's almost like I'm in control now. That's how

715
00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 1: I read it totally.

716
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, this movie's attitude towards sex, I guess is just

717
00:40:21,880 --> 00:40:27,040
Speaker 2: really uh twisted and bizarre. All that to say, I'm

718
00:40:27,080 --> 00:40:29,359
Speaker 2: pretty sure he does not have sex with Helen because

719
00:40:29,520 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 2: because she says, you don't have to make love to me,

720
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:33,440
Speaker 2: and he seems sort of like few.

721
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:34,480
Speaker 3: He's like, I wasn't trying.

722
00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:35,040
Speaker 1: I know.

723
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, He's like, we're this is just this is just

724
00:40:38,600 --> 00:40:41,800
Speaker 2: a divorce, naked time whatever.

725
00:40:42,160 --> 00:40:47,080
Speaker 3: I don't know right, So that happens the next day

726
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 3: another detective who works with the first detective and is

727
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 3: his romantic partner, is concerned that the first detective hasn't

728
00:40:57,480 --> 00:41:01,440
Speaker 3: shown up. So the second detective I think his name

729
00:41:01,520 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 3: might be Zimmerman. He goes to Anna's new apartment and

730
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:11,840
Speaker 3: finds the same bloody, gooey creature lying in the bed.

731
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 3: Now we can see that it has tentacles. There's also

732
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 3: some light emanating from its abdomen. It's oozing all sorts

733
00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 3: of like blood and white and green goo. And Anna

734
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:30,799
Speaker 3: is like, oh him, he's tired. He made love to

735
00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 3: me all night.

736
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,360
Speaker 2: Oh haha.

737
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:39,160
Speaker 3: By the way, he's still unfinished, implying that she's like

738
00:41:39,520 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 3: working on the creature or that it's going to turn

739
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:46,040
Speaker 3: into something else, right, and then she attacks and shoots

740
00:41:46,040 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 3: and kills the detective. Meanwhile, Mark receives a package. It's

741
00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:57,040
Speaker 3: footage of someone filming a ballet class where Anna is

742
00:41:57,080 --> 00:41:59,800
Speaker 3: the teacher, and we see her be very cruel to

743
00:42:00,040 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 3: one of her young students, and then she's talking to

744
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:09,880
Speaker 3: the camera, ranting and raving about sisters and faith and

745
00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 3: chance and other things that don't make much sense.

746
00:42:14,760 --> 00:42:19,239
Speaker 2: I always forget that that scene is in the movie, right,

747
00:42:19,360 --> 00:42:24,560
Speaker 2: because I what does everyone think's going on? There can

748
00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 2: someone I I have theories, but I yeah, Alicia, what's happening.

749
00:42:30,400 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 1: Well, this most recent time that I was reading it

750
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:36,760
Speaker 1: or watching it, sorry, I was thinking about Well, first

751
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: the whole scene with the ballerina and her like she's

752
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 1: being super cool to her student and whatnot. This is

753
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 1: all filmed by Heinrich, and I think that Heinrich sent

754
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,120
Speaker 1: these videos to Mark to be like, see I'm the

755
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,440
Speaker 1: superior man. But like the whole Mark gets something different

756
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:55,319
Speaker 1: out of this. As Anna's talking, she says, this is

757
00:42:55,320 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 1: why I'm with you, Heinrich, because you say I for me.

758
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:01,000
Speaker 1: And what she is saying and then instance this is

759
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,560
Speaker 1: in the past, you know, with during their relationship, you

760
00:43:03,600 --> 00:43:05,440
Speaker 1: say aye for me. When I hear that, I think

761
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 1: you speak for me. You take my agency, you like

762
00:43:09,280 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 1: make it easier to you know, not be responsible, like

763
00:43:14,320 --> 00:43:19,000
Speaker 1: to just like go about this affair, and you know,

764
00:43:19,040 --> 00:43:22,200
Speaker 1: you speak for me. But then in the next section,

765
00:43:22,360 --> 00:43:26,160
Speaker 1: she's sort of having a breakdown and she is starting

766
00:43:26,160 --> 00:43:28,520
Speaker 1: to think about the sister's faith and chance and there's

767
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:31,640
Speaker 1: like the duality there. A very small detail that we

768
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,439
Speaker 1: caught at the beginning was that she was briefly with Mark.

769
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 1: They had a child and he went away pretty quickly after. Yeah,

770
00:43:39,160 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 1: so I feel like she was really taking a chance

771
00:43:41,480 --> 00:43:44,120
Speaker 1: with Mark, taking a chance on being a mother, taking

772
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,120
Speaker 1: a chance on having this relationship with Mark and being

773
00:43:47,160 --> 00:43:49,680
Speaker 1: his wife and all of that. But somewhere along the way,

774
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:53,719
Speaker 1: her faith in them gets ripped apart. So now she's

775
00:43:53,760 --> 00:43:57,000
Speaker 1: trying to rebuild her faith, which could be taken as

776
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:02,680
Speaker 1: the creature, So that's one interpretation. She also talks about

777
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 1: having to be everything to everybody else, Yeah, and so

778
00:44:06,960 --> 00:44:10,680
Speaker 1: losing losing any sort of like possession of the self.

779
00:44:12,040 --> 00:44:15,839
Speaker 2: That's fascinating. Okay, I I had not connected the dots

780
00:44:15,880 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 2: in that way, so thank you for them.

781
00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,280
Speaker 1: That's just my reading though, That's just what I'm bringing

782
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 1: to it.

783
00:44:21,000 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 2: That's I mean, this movie is Lucy goosey baby. There's

784
00:44:24,040 --> 00:44:26,280
Speaker 2: no wrong answers, But that makes a lot of sense.

785
00:44:26,520 --> 00:44:30,600
Speaker 3: Gooey tooey gooey.

786
00:44:30,719 --> 00:44:34,759
Speaker 2: Yeah. My I always forget that scene is there, and

787
00:44:34,800 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 2: then I like rewatched it a couple of times just

788
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:39,360
Speaker 2: to be like, huh, okay, okay, I wasn't clear. I

789
00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:42,480
Speaker 2: mean they say that she stopped working about a year ago,

790
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 2: which to me also already indicates like perhaps an impending crisis,

791
00:44:47,800 --> 00:44:51,080
Speaker 2: which is certainly true for Mark who leaves his job

792
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,040
Speaker 2: and immediately spirals into crisis. So when I was seeing

793
00:44:54,080 --> 00:44:55,759
Speaker 2: the ballet tapes, I was like, Okay, maybe that was

794
00:44:55,760 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 2: her job that she stepped away from, because we don't

795
00:44:58,640 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 2: really get a lot of information about or otherwise, And

796
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:03,600
Speaker 2: it felt like, I mean, and again, maybe it's like

797
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 2: this is where I'm projecting stuff where in an environment

798
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 2: like that it can be not always. Obviously there's plenty

799
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,600
Speaker 2: of dance instructors that are amazing, but you're in a

800
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:18,840
Speaker 2: room full of people you perceive as your younger self.

801
00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,840
Speaker 2: And I do think that there are teacher student dynamics

802
00:45:21,880 --> 00:45:25,560
Speaker 2: where if you are singled out as like a sight

803
00:45:25,920 --> 00:45:31,440
Speaker 2: of pain and abuse, it's often because the teacher is like,

804
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 2: I see my younger self in you, and I should

805
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:36,359
Speaker 2: have experienced that pain and then I would have been

806
00:45:36,880 --> 00:45:38,560
Speaker 2: x y Z. Where I feel like that comes up

807
00:45:38,600 --> 00:45:43,000
Speaker 2: in athletics a lot, or like whatever, black swant, whiplash,

808
00:45:43,040 --> 00:45:46,120
Speaker 2: you name it, like the pursuit of being the right

809
00:45:46,239 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 2: way is not to require suffering, and so it's like

810
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,160
Speaker 2: it's weirdly, I'm like ititon ya you know, we could

811
00:45:54,239 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 2: keep going of just like the forceful coach who abuses

812
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,440
Speaker 2: the young student to quoteunqut push them to greatness, but

813
00:46:01,480 --> 00:46:05,040
Speaker 2: it's also because they hate something in themselves. And again

814
00:46:05,120 --> 00:46:07,640
Speaker 2: I'm like, I don't know exactly where that would fit

815
00:46:07,719 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 2: into this movie specifically, but I don't know. Yeah, my

816
00:46:11,000 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 2: read of it in this viewing was like that there

817
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:17,960
Speaker 2: is a part of Anna that does experience this like

818
00:46:18,040 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 2: extreme self hatred or the idea that like, I mean,

819
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 2: this is definitely clear that she is not fitting into

820
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 2: the roles she's supposed to fit into correctly, and that

821
00:46:29,719 --> 00:46:34,480
Speaker 2: she's and so much of why I love even though

822
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 2: it's she's not great, you know, but like, uh, I

823
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 2: love those moments of her extreme anger, even though, oh

824
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:43,840
Speaker 2: my god, this movie could be hard on the ears.

825
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 2: There's so much screaming, so much just so much scream

826
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:49,880
Speaker 2: and the sound mixing is like it seems like it

827
00:46:49,920 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 2: was pretty much done on the fly because there's a

828
00:46:51,600 --> 00:46:54,480
Speaker 2: lot of echoes, there's a lot of tunnel echoes whatever.

829
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:58,440
Speaker 2: But when she's angry, it's just I don't know, Like

830
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:02,240
Speaker 2: I again, this is like me directing probably, but it's like, god,

831
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:05,000
Speaker 2: I've done everything I was supposed to do and it

832
00:47:05,040 --> 00:47:07,960
Speaker 2: didn't work, and I'm like so much worse off than

833
00:47:08,000 --> 00:47:10,560
Speaker 2: I started. And that's like I don't know, Like I

834
00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:12,800
Speaker 2: just feel that in her so much, and to me,

835
00:47:12,960 --> 00:47:14,880
Speaker 2: that's what the monster is, is like I did everything

836
00:47:14,920 --> 00:47:18,880
Speaker 2: I was supposed to it and I'm absolutely fucked and like,

837
00:47:19,640 --> 00:47:22,640
Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know, but yeah, that taped

838
00:47:22,680 --> 00:47:24,439
Speaker 2: this time, I was like, how does this fit into

839
00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:28,640
Speaker 2: her story? And her story is vague enough that you

840
00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:30,799
Speaker 2: can kind of go a lot of ways with it.

841
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, truly, Yeah, and I'm still I'm trying to figure

842
00:47:36,440 --> 00:47:37,799
Speaker 3: this Anna out to.

843
00:47:37,800 --> 00:47:41,239
Speaker 2: This day, this diva who knows, who knows what's going

844
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:42,480
Speaker 2: on with nose rip?

845
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:47,879
Speaker 1: I mean those shoes, the sunglasses, Oh my god, wow,

846
00:47:48,000 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: pause for the for the fashion, It's like so fucking truly.

847
00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 2: I also like that there's like this cartoon character quality

848
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 2: to their clothes where we know that this movie takes

849
00:47:58,120 --> 00:48:02,480
Speaker 2: place at least over about a month or so, because

850
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 2: at one point there's just three lost weeks that has

851
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:08,160
Speaker 2: never referenced again and Bob. We're led to believe that

852
00:48:08,160 --> 00:48:12,239
Speaker 2: Bob was surviving on jam or something horrible, but this

853
00:48:12,320 --> 00:48:15,440
Speaker 2: movie takes place over like more than a day. And

854
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:19,400
Speaker 2: yet no, everyone's outfit is the same. It's like they're

855
00:48:19,480 --> 00:48:21,040
Speaker 2: spongebobbing it very blue.

856
00:48:21,280 --> 00:48:25,520
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, I didn't even notice that, but yeah, yeah, like.

857
00:48:25,480 --> 00:48:27,239
Speaker 2: The Sam Neil. And then and then even when we're

858
00:48:27,239 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 2: seeing the flashback of the miscarriage scene, she's wearing the

859
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:35,319
Speaker 2: same dress. So it's like, this is just this is

860
00:48:35,400 --> 00:48:36,240
Speaker 2: just where it is.

861
00:48:36,520 --> 00:48:39,959
Speaker 3: Yes, and we're about to get there because you'll you'll

862
00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:41,240
Speaker 3: never guess what happens next.

863
00:48:41,280 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 2: But Anna returns home again and drag her.

864
00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:51,279
Speaker 3: Mark of course does not yet know anything about the

865
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:55,640
Speaker 3: tentacle man in her new apartment, but he does see

866
00:48:55,680 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 3: her being very erratic and unstable, and he's trying to

867
00:49:00,680 --> 00:49:05,400
Speaker 3: understand what's going on. And then she recounts a memory

868
00:49:05,440 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 3: and we see this flashback where she's at a church

869
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:12,840
Speaker 3: for a brief moment, looking at like Jesus on the cross,

870
00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:19,040
Speaker 3: and then she's in this like metro underground hallway kind

871
00:49:19,080 --> 00:49:24,800
Speaker 3: of thing. She's flinging groceries around. She might be possessed

872
00:49:25,440 --> 00:49:29,919
Speaker 3: or something. There's there's red and white and green goo

873
00:49:30,719 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 3: seeping out of her various orifices.

874
00:49:33,080 --> 00:49:35,160
Speaker 2: This she picked up a bunch of goo at the

875
00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:38,960
Speaker 2: grocery store and he goes.

876
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:43,359
Speaker 3: Everywhere seeping out. And I didn't connect these dots upon

877
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:47,239
Speaker 3: my first watch, but this is her having a miscarriage.

878
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:49,759
Speaker 2: I believe, yes, yeah.

879
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:55,239
Speaker 3: And so she tells this to Mark and I don't

880
00:49:55,280 --> 00:49:58,080
Speaker 3: even know how he reacts. I feel like he doesn't

881
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 3: really have much of a reaction, but he does call

882
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:06,040
Speaker 3: Heinrich to be like, hey, this is Anna's new address

883
00:50:06,200 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 3: in case you want to go over there. So Heinrich

884
00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:13,440
Speaker 3: goes to this place and he and Anna are like

885
00:50:13,960 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 3: kissing and stuff, but he's also saying some very rapey things.

886
00:50:18,520 --> 00:50:22,879
Speaker 3: Then he finds the tentacle creature as well as some

887
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:28,080
Speaker 3: human heads and other body parts in her refrigerator, and

888
00:50:28,120 --> 00:50:32,960
Speaker 3: he's like, oh my god, yeah, and then she stabs

889
00:50:33,040 --> 00:50:36,800
Speaker 3: him a little bit and he escapes and calls Mark.

890
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 3: So Mark goes to the apartment and the creature is

891
00:50:41,040 --> 00:50:45,040
Speaker 3: gone now, but Mark does see the heads in the

892
00:50:45,080 --> 00:50:47,839
Speaker 3: refrigerator and he freaks out and he goes to meet

893
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:51,799
Speaker 3: up with Heinrich at a bar and they discuss what

894
00:50:51,880 --> 00:50:54,920
Speaker 3: they might do to help Anna, although Mark is like

895
00:50:55,400 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 3: mocking Heinrich and acting like he doesn't really believe him.

896
00:50:59,800 --> 00:51:06,480
Speaker 3: And then he kills Heinrich and blows up Anna's apartment

897
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 3: I guess to hide the evidence of her recent murders.

898
00:51:10,400 --> 00:51:13,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, Mark, Mark kind of goes joker mode towards the end,

899
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,280
Speaker 2: where I'm like, I don't even know why he's doing

900
00:51:16,280 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 2: what he's doing, and he clearly doesn't die either, Like

901
00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,160
Speaker 2: he's just like, all right, how could we heighten? Okay,

902
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,960
Speaker 2: I just killed the guy. It also like the meanest

903
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 2: way possible and okay there, which I mean, it's it's

904
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,040
Speaker 2: fun to watch where he's like you can see the

905
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 2: little cogs in his like weak brain turning. He's like, okay, frigda,

906
00:51:37,640 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 2: I'm gonna get on the toilet and in it. Like

907
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 2: he's just such a little fucking weasel. Yeah, yeah, he's

908
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:48,279
Speaker 2: I don't like, I guess he does. He blow up

909
00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 2: the apartment to like protect her, to cover her tracks.

910
00:51:51,000 --> 00:51:53,120
Speaker 2: Like it does seem like there is towards the end

911
00:51:53,280 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 2: this like not that they're stuck together. Clearly these clearly

912
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:01,279
Speaker 2: these two aren't gonna it's not going to work out

913
00:52:01,400 --> 00:52:04,759
Speaker 2: between them. Yeah, but there is still this like and

914
00:52:04,800 --> 00:52:07,840
Speaker 2: I do feel like that is having divorced parents. I

915
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:11,200
Speaker 2: feel like that is divorce vibes of like, even though

916
00:52:11,400 --> 00:52:14,319
Speaker 2: there's a part of me that like really hates this

917
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 2: person and resents them and we've been through all this

918
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:22,440
Speaker 2: awful stuff, I still feel this like compulsion to protect

919
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 2: them to some extent. I'm not saying that it's like

920
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 2: he's actually an amazing guy, but like that is an

921
00:52:28,200 --> 00:52:30,360
Speaker 2: extreme act that you're sort of led to believe no

922
00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 2: one else would take for Anna, because why would you?

923
00:52:34,600 --> 00:52:37,520
Speaker 1: He does say, and I never caught this before, but

924
00:52:37,680 --> 00:52:40,759
Speaker 1: and I think it's just after they've after he's like

925
00:52:40,840 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: they've I don't remember what part it is. There's so

926
00:52:43,160 --> 00:52:45,359
Speaker 1: much coming and going, as you said, but there's one

927
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 1: part in their apartment where she's about to leave and

928
00:52:47,719 --> 00:52:50,799
Speaker 1: he says, you are all I have. And I think

929
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 1: that that's why, because he is so hell bent. I mean,

930
00:52:55,160 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 1: all the men are so hell bent on trying to

931
00:52:57,640 --> 00:53:01,480
Speaker 1: possess her and trying to like make.

932
00:53:01,360 --> 00:53:02,439
Speaker 3: Her see them.

933
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:07,879
Speaker 1: You know that she just keeps slipping away from him,

934
00:53:07,880 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 1: and all all he can do is just try and

935
00:53:09,719 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 1: protect her in the in the event that maybe she

936
00:53:12,640 --> 00:53:17,080
Speaker 1: will allow herself to be possessed by him. Yeah, that's

937
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:18,160
Speaker 1: all I can think of.

938
00:53:20,000 --> 00:53:22,600
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's that was my read as well.

939
00:53:22,719 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 2: Also, it's just like it's just I like seeing sam

940
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 2: Neil scoot around in that little bomber jacket. I like

941
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:31,600
Speaker 2: it when he gets on his little Viking, he zooms

942
00:53:31,640 --> 00:53:34,600
Speaker 2: zooms away. I'm like, it's it's just so wild. He's

943
00:53:34,719 --> 00:53:36,799
Speaker 2: he's never been hot to me, but when he's like

944
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:40,040
Speaker 2: blowing stuff up and he's in his little jacket, yeah,

945
00:53:41,719 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 2: you're like, I love it.

946
00:53:44,400 --> 00:53:49,200
Speaker 3: Right, And then he comes back home to find Margie

947
00:53:49,320 --> 00:53:52,560
Speaker 3: badly wounded. It seems like Anna had stabbed her.

948
00:53:53,480 --> 00:53:57,120
Speaker 2: Their best friends, so guys their best their best friends.

949
00:53:57,480 --> 00:53:58,879
Speaker 2: They do anything for each other.

950
00:53:59,000 --> 00:54:02,960
Speaker 3: There's a reference to Margie saw it or saw something.

951
00:54:03,080 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 3: I guess she saw the tentacle creature and that's why

952
00:54:06,160 --> 00:54:11,400
Speaker 3: Anna killed her. Anna helps Mark get cleaned up, and

953
00:54:11,440 --> 00:54:15,600
Speaker 3: then they have sex, and now they're like, okay, we

954
00:54:15,640 --> 00:54:18,600
Speaker 3: have to cover up Margie's death and get the hell

955
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:22,759
Speaker 3: out of here. So Mark puts Margie's body in the

956
00:54:22,760 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 3: trunk of his car. But when he comes back inside,

957
00:54:26,160 --> 00:54:31,440
Speaker 3: he discovers Anna having loud, passionate sex with the tentacle creature,

958
00:54:32,640 --> 00:54:38,040
Speaker 3: and he's just sort of like, okay, again. His reactions

959
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:42,879
Speaker 3: to things are really bizarre and hard to understand, and

960
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:47,239
Speaker 3: he leaves again and pays a visit to Heinrich's mother,

961
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 3: who realizes that Heinrich is dead and she dies by

962
00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 3: suicide and You're.

963
00:54:53,320 --> 00:54:58,320
Speaker 2: Like, what what I mean? That's okay? So there I

964
00:54:59,040 --> 00:55:02,480
Speaker 2: was like, Okay, so this is this because there's always

965
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:04,120
Speaker 2: just a chance for this movie that this is just

966
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,720
Speaker 2: something that happens, because why not, because it could happen,

967
00:55:07,800 --> 00:55:10,520
Speaker 2: so why not make it happen. But it also felt like, well,

968
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 2: is that the movie's attempt to make some sort of

969
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 2: statement on both faith and motherhood of like is this

970
00:55:21,800 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 2: what was he saying with that? I don't know.

971
00:55:24,440 --> 00:55:28,480
Speaker 3: I really don't know. Something I've been reflecting on recently

972
00:55:28,800 --> 00:55:32,960
Speaker 3: after having gone to film school twice. Not that I

973
00:55:32,960 --> 00:55:35,920
Speaker 3: would ever mention that, but especially in my undergrad where

974
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 3: I took a lot of film production classes, and then

975
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:41,439
Speaker 3: I took at least one in my grad program, and

976
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:46,279
Speaker 3: like people who weren't writers, but people who were aspiring directors,

977
00:55:47,239 --> 00:55:49,640
Speaker 3: and like, we're more focused on kind of the production

978
00:55:49,760 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 3: side of things versus the development and writing side of things.

979
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:56,160
Speaker 3: They'd be on set shooting something and they would be like, Okay,

980
00:55:56,400 --> 00:55:59,360
Speaker 3: in this scene, this random thing is going to happen,

981
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:02,799
Speaker 3: and then character is gonna do this wacky thing, and

982
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:06,360
Speaker 3: I'd be like, but why, and they would say, because

983
00:56:06,400 --> 00:56:09,880
Speaker 3: it looks cool, yeah, And I'm like, but it. And

984
00:56:09,920 --> 00:56:13,319
Speaker 3: I think a lot of filmmakers just kind of make

985
00:56:13,400 --> 00:56:18,000
Speaker 3: weird choices that don't necessarily make logical narrative sense because

986
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:20,239
Speaker 3: they're like they're like, I could do that because I

987
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:22,359
Speaker 3: can because it looks cool.

988
00:56:22,520 --> 00:56:24,480
Speaker 2: And this is the kind of vibes driven movie where

989
00:56:24,480 --> 00:56:27,280
Speaker 2: that would happen. It's just like, again, there's I guess

990
00:56:27,320 --> 00:56:31,480
Speaker 2: similar to Bob Dying, which I've now seen this movie

991
00:56:31,520 --> 00:56:35,799
Speaker 2: three times, didn't know, didn't know Bob died, but that

992
00:56:35,880 --> 00:56:37,839
Speaker 2: you're like this, yeah, like this could be a very

993
00:56:37,880 --> 00:56:40,560
Speaker 2: intentional choice that is just like kind of unclear or

994
00:56:40,760 --> 00:56:43,359
Speaker 2: like you're saying, Caitlin, it might just be like, let's

995
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,520
Speaker 2: let's make sure every woman's dead before, right, Yeah, we

996
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:50,360
Speaker 2: got to make sure every woman we've met it is dead, right. Yeah.

997
00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,239
Speaker 1: What I got out of it was, again, he's just

998
00:56:53,280 --> 00:56:56,080
Speaker 1: trying to make fun of Heinrich as like a mama's

999
00:56:56,120 --> 00:57:00,440
Speaker 1: boy type of thing and have this this seems like

1000
00:57:00,480 --> 00:57:04,160
Speaker 1: this woman's only reason for living was her son, Like

1001
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:05,320
Speaker 1: she had to live.

1002
00:57:05,640 --> 00:57:09,759
Speaker 2: Just like the real tragedy, right, and so.

1003
00:57:11,320 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 1: This is a little bit cute, see, but like she

1004
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 1: dies and the window opens, like her soul's gone. Like

1005
00:57:16,600 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's just like it's such a weird uh.

1006
00:57:20,800 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 1: I guess it's this one more of those like religious.

1007
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 3: Scenes for this film.

1008
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:29,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, they're kind of just scattered throughout. Yeah, I didn't

1009
00:57:29,240 --> 00:57:31,480
Speaker 1: make too much of it. Okay, it could be a

1010
00:57:31,560 --> 00:57:35,479
Speaker 1: throwaway scene, but it could also be that I don't know, if.

1011
00:57:35,440 --> 00:57:38,760
Speaker 2: We don't know, it's so weird because everything happens. I mean,

1012
00:57:38,800 --> 00:57:41,000
Speaker 2: it's part of why I really like it. Everything happens

1013
00:57:41,040 --> 00:57:44,280
Speaker 2: with the same amount of intensity. But like it could

1014
00:57:44,320 --> 00:57:46,920
Speaker 2: be either very meaningful or just be like, well, I

1015
00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:51,480
Speaker 2: don't know whatever likes right, Just like the long take

1016
00:57:51,560 --> 00:57:54,120
Speaker 2: between like Anna looking at Jesus, You're like you could

1017
00:57:54,160 --> 00:57:57,520
Speaker 2: either see like that is the cryptex to understanding the movie,

1018
00:57:57,680 --> 00:57:58,640
Speaker 2: or it might just be like.

1019
00:57:59,120 --> 00:58:01,120
Speaker 3: We shot it and we decided to put it in

1020
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:01,600
Speaker 3: the movie.

1021
00:58:01,800 --> 00:58:03,840
Speaker 2: She says faith and then she looks at a crucifix.

1022
00:58:03,920 --> 00:58:06,120
Speaker 2: Later thoughts like right.

1023
00:58:06,320 --> 00:58:10,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, right, right, right, who does Okay, so where are

1024
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:16,680
Speaker 3: we The next day, Mark's former spy bosses slash colleagues

1025
00:58:17,160 --> 00:58:20,560
Speaker 3: approach him and there's a shootout on the street. So

1026
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:22,720
Speaker 3: it becomes kind of an entirely different movie for a

1027
00:58:22,800 --> 00:58:27,680
Speaker 3: few minutes, where now it's like a spy thriller. And

1028
00:58:27,880 --> 00:58:32,760
Speaker 3: Mark escapes and heads into a building all bloody and injured,

1029
00:58:33,440 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 3: and Anna shows up and she's like, let me introduce

1030
00:58:36,400 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 3: you to my friend, and it's a doppelganger of Mark,

1031
00:58:42,680 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 3: also played by Sam Neil, except he has a different

1032
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:48,800
Speaker 3: eye color, similar to how Anna's doppelganger has a sim

1033
00:58:49,160 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 3: has a different eye color, and so I guess this

1034
00:58:52,920 --> 00:58:57,240
Speaker 3: is the tentacle creature, this doppelganger of Mark that has

1035
00:58:57,320 --> 00:59:03,560
Speaker 3: been slowly transforming and evolving into the doppelganger. And Mark

1036
00:59:03,640 --> 00:59:06,640
Speaker 3: is just sort of like again weird reaction. He's just

1037
00:59:06,680 --> 00:59:11,560
Speaker 3: sort of like, oh okay. And then the spy dudes

1038
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:15,760
Speaker 3: catch back up with Mark and shoot him, and Anna

1039
00:59:16,600 --> 00:59:21,480
Speaker 3: the doppelganger escapes. Cut back to Little Bob and his

1040
00:59:21,560 --> 00:59:25,120
Speaker 3: teacher Helen is there as his new guardian question Mark,

1041
00:59:26,080 --> 00:59:29,880
Speaker 3: and Mark Stoppelganger shows up at the door and he's

1042
00:59:29,920 --> 00:59:30,760
Speaker 3: kind of banging on the.

1043
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:34,320
Speaker 2: Door like yeah, he's climbing up the door, and then

1044
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:37,400
Speaker 2: and Bob is afraid and he goes in the bathtub

1045
00:59:37,560 --> 00:59:40,040
Speaker 2: and presumably dies there.

1046
00:59:40,720 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 3: And then and then a bunch of bombs start raining

1047
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:45,600
Speaker 3: down outside as if like.

1048
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,080
Speaker 2: Which is like it's almost like this movie takes place

1049
00:59:48,120 --> 00:59:49,360
Speaker 2: next to the Berlin Wall.

1050
00:59:51,560 --> 00:59:54,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's the end of the movie. So everyone

1051
00:59:54,520 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 3: gets it right.

1052
00:59:56,400 --> 00:59:58,680
Speaker 2: Makes sense to I mean, like the Doppelgangers are the

1053
00:59:58,720 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 2: last one standing. So that feels like a clear something.

1054
01:00:06,200 --> 01:00:08,040
Speaker 3: Or an unclear or something. I don't know.

1055
01:00:08,480 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 2: I don't know the last week, last thing before we

1056
01:00:11,320 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 2: got a break. I guess I forgot there. There's like

1057
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:16,600
Speaker 2: I think my favorite I mean, well it's it's the

1058
01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:21,120
Speaker 2: tunnel scene is like the most elevated, Like that performance

1059
01:00:21,200 --> 01:00:23,640
Speaker 2: is like unmatching, but like a smaller moment that I

1060
01:00:23,680 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 2: really loved on this viewing in particular is like you

1061
01:00:27,560 --> 01:00:30,600
Speaker 2: really don't feel Sam Neil give up on the relationship

1062
01:00:30,880 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 2: until he sees an octopus fucking his wife, like you

1063
01:00:34,680 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 2: can see. Uh, there's like there's just like, Okay, I

1064
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 2: get it, this relationship will not move forward, and even

1065
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 2: though he's like his character is a piece of shit, right,

1066
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:48,440
Speaker 2: but like I I've in that moment I could relate

1067
01:00:48,480 --> 01:00:50,600
Speaker 2: with that character where it like it takes something so

1068
01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:53,960
Speaker 2: extreme for you to accept like, okay, so this is

1069
01:00:54,000 --> 01:00:56,800
Speaker 2: a got it, got it, But it takes it takes

1070
01:00:57,800 --> 01:01:00,400
Speaker 2: a cryptid uh fucking your wife in front of you

1071
01:01:00,600 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 2: to be like, so she's actually not interested in me?

1072
01:01:03,360 --> 01:01:06,400
Speaker 2: Got it? I just love that moment.

1073
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:10,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty great. All right, let's take a quick

1074
01:01:10,320 --> 01:01:24,760
Speaker 3: break and we'll come back to discuss. And we're back, Well,

1075
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:27,040
Speaker 3: what should we talk about, Alicia?

1076
01:01:27,280 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 2: We're going to kick it to you. Where would you

1077
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 2: like to start the discussion? Is there anything jumping out

1078
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:32,440
Speaker 2: to you on this viewing?

1079
01:01:33,080 --> 01:01:36,200
Speaker 1: Oh man, Well, we did talk a little bit about

1080
01:01:36,200 --> 01:01:38,480
Speaker 1: like here and there the two sisters.

1081
01:01:42,320 --> 01:01:46,080
Speaker 3: Well, okay, there's a part where she's like, yeah, I

1082
01:01:46,200 --> 01:01:52,600
Speaker 3: miscarried Chance, Like the miscarriage scene. It implies that Chance

1083
01:01:52,760 --> 01:01:58,640
Speaker 3: is gone. But Faith is the tentacle creature that she's

1084
01:01:58,760 --> 01:02:02,280
Speaker 3: also having sex with that she maybe gave birth to.

1085
01:02:02,600 --> 01:02:04,920
Speaker 3: So yes, we don't know.

1086
01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 2: I'll be honest. There the thing when things get that

1087
01:02:08,760 --> 01:02:11,439
Speaker 2: like it's why I can't I mean whatever, it's why

1088
01:02:11,480 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 2: I can't do Like the Bible where it's like but

1089
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:18,040
Speaker 2: things get that like bonk you over the head, like symbolic.

1090
01:02:18,200 --> 01:02:19,919
Speaker 2: My brain just kind of switches off.

1091
01:02:20,480 --> 01:02:21,160
Speaker 3: Yes, and like.

1092
01:02:21,280 --> 01:02:24,680
Speaker 2: She Okay, so we're witnessing the miscarriage of an idea.

1093
01:02:26,960 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 2: Chance is goo? We don't, Yeah, but yeah.

1094
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 3: What was your take on that discussion of like the

1095
01:02:33,680 --> 01:02:37,040
Speaker 3: sisters and those metaphors.

1096
01:02:37,760 --> 01:02:39,920
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I think I think she was kind of

1097
01:02:39,960 --> 01:02:44,760
Speaker 1: talking about her and her relationships and responsibilities and things

1098
01:02:44,880 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 1: like that. I do feel like the creature is her

1099
01:02:50,320 --> 01:02:55,240
Speaker 1: shot at creating something that she she thinks like, nothing

1100
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 1: has satisfied me in the past, I must create it.

1101
01:02:59,120 --> 01:03:02,120
Speaker 1: But then and behold, what she creates is the exact

1102
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:05,560
Speaker 1: thing she already has, but in a more divine sense,

1103
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:09,960
Speaker 1: because when we look at the way that there are

1104
01:03:10,080 --> 01:03:12,360
Speaker 1: subtle nods to the fact that the creature could be

1105
01:03:12,440 --> 01:03:18,560
Speaker 1: God or a devil disguising as God, because Emmanuel is

1106
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:22,200
Speaker 1: the first the name of the first detective that comes

1107
01:03:22,440 --> 01:03:26,280
Speaker 1: into the room, and Emmanuel means God with us, and

1108
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:29,920
Speaker 1: you know, every single one of those dudes who sees

1109
01:03:29,960 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 1: the creature goes my God. And Heinrich also becomes temporarily blind,

1110
01:03:34,840 --> 01:03:38,560
Speaker 1: So there is some sort of divine He's a divine

1111
01:03:38,680 --> 01:03:41,800
Speaker 1: entity that will go on to destroy the world in

1112
01:03:41,840 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 1: a very misogynistic biblical reading. You could say she's the

1113
01:03:45,440 --> 01:03:49,520
Speaker 1: horror of Babylon giving birth to you know, I don't think.

1114
01:03:49,800 --> 01:03:52,040
Speaker 1: I don't think that that's not true.

1115
01:03:52,120 --> 01:03:54,080
Speaker 2: I haven't thought about the horror of Babylon in a

1116
01:03:54,080 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 2: long time since shout out to her.

1117
01:03:56,200 --> 01:04:00,919
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, right, But I don't think that what's happening here.

1118
01:04:01,000 --> 01:04:05,960
Speaker 1: I think it's more just feminine agency and the feminine

1119
01:04:05,960 --> 01:04:08,440
Speaker 1: feminine ability to create, because a lot of people when

1120
01:04:08,440 --> 01:04:11,040
Speaker 1: they see the monster, they think that all the white

1121
01:04:11,040 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 1: stuff is sperm, and I think it's milk.

1122
01:04:13,680 --> 01:04:16,200
Speaker 2: I think she Yeah, I give out in this milk.

1123
01:04:16,720 --> 01:04:17,480
Speaker 2: Yeah right.

1124
01:04:17,560 --> 01:04:20,040
Speaker 1: It's it feels like she is giving her all to this,

1125
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:26,040
Speaker 1: including her own bodily fluids and her orgasms and like

1126
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:30,480
Speaker 1: every bit of herself her responsibility, and it's sort of incestuous,

1127
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:34,560
Speaker 1: which is also kind of weird, right, Yeah.

1128
01:04:34,280 --> 01:04:38,600
Speaker 2: Which my understanding is that Zulowski uh does not mind

1129
01:04:39,000 --> 01:04:42,040
Speaker 2: throwing in some incest into his work. It seems like

1130
01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:45,880
Speaker 2: a consistent theme from what I've gathered. Yeah, I agree.

1131
01:04:45,880 --> 01:04:48,040
Speaker 2: I mean, I think what's so tricky in the way,

1132
01:04:48,080 --> 01:04:50,360
Speaker 2: and I'm sure that we're going to encounter this over

1133
01:04:50,400 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 2: and over, is that like so often it really In

1134
01:04:54,320 --> 01:04:57,320
Speaker 2: what I was reading about this, it's presented as like,

1135
01:04:57,640 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 2: you know that Mark and and are sort of two

1136
01:05:01,840 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 2: sides of the same coin in some way, and I

1137
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:05,400
Speaker 2: feel like the plot bears that out to some extent,

1138
01:05:05,440 --> 01:05:09,560
Speaker 2: where they both create doppelgangers that are idealized versions of

1139
01:05:09,560 --> 01:05:13,080
Speaker 2: the other. If we're if we're to think that Helen

1140
01:05:13,240 --> 01:05:16,480
Speaker 2: is like not quite real or like there's so much

1141
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:20,760
Speaker 2: projection going on from March's side. But what I do, yeah, yeah,

1142
01:05:20,840 --> 01:05:22,840
Speaker 2: But what I find tricky about like the way that

1143
01:05:22,880 --> 01:05:24,920
Speaker 2: I've seen this movie written about and I have it right,

1144
01:05:25,000 --> 01:05:28,240
Speaker 2: I want to read the book you have had. I

1145
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:33,480
Speaker 2: didn't encounter it, but that like you know, it's it's

1146
01:05:33,520 --> 01:05:36,560
Speaker 2: it's hard because it's like we're presented with this dynamic

1147
01:05:36,600 --> 01:05:40,120
Speaker 2: that I don't even know if Zolowski understands, because he's

1148
01:05:40,320 --> 01:05:44,160
Speaker 2: clearly sorting through some very personal shit and would continue to.

1149
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 2: I saw that much later in his life. Towards the

1150
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:52,160
Speaker 2: end of his life. Subsequent romantic partner sued him for

1151
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:55,920
Speaker 2: oversharing about their sex life and about her life in

1152
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:59,120
Speaker 2: a work of fiction quote unquote, and he lost that

1153
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:01,640
Speaker 2: case because she was right. So we know that a

1154
01:06:01,640 --> 01:06:03,680
Speaker 2: lot of this is coming from a personal place. But

1155
01:06:04,240 --> 01:06:08,120
Speaker 2: I can't tell on the Zulawski side, if he like

1156
01:06:08,160 --> 01:06:11,560
Speaker 2: he knows that they are both deeply flawed and they

1157
01:06:11,560 --> 01:06:16,240
Speaker 2: are both obsessed with control. I don't know that he

1158
01:06:16,400 --> 01:06:21,400
Speaker 2: fully sees Mark as abusive as he really is. That's

1159
01:06:21,400 --> 01:06:23,400
Speaker 2: why it's like, I find some of the writing around

1160
01:06:23,400 --> 01:06:26,720
Speaker 2: it tricky, although I don't really have a solution for

1161
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:30,680
Speaker 2: it other than to constantly kind of qualify, like, yes,

1162
01:06:30,880 --> 01:06:35,640
Speaker 2: Anna is a deeply flawed person. She is a negligent parent.

1163
01:06:35,920 --> 01:06:38,840
Speaker 2: She is like she is a very very deeply flawed person.

1164
01:06:39,160 --> 01:06:42,880
Speaker 2: But she is also clearly subject to horrific abuse and

1165
01:06:42,960 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 2: control by her husband from moment one. Yes, and the

1166
01:06:49,440 --> 01:06:51,320
Speaker 2: violence I mean, correct me, if I'm right, All of

1167
01:06:51,320 --> 01:06:55,000
Speaker 2: the violence we see from Anna towards Mark is reactionary.

1168
01:06:55,200 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 2: It's not She is not the aggressor, and it's like

1169
01:07:00,120 --> 01:07:02,520
Speaker 2: Mark is. And I do think, I guess, to this

1170
01:07:02,560 --> 01:07:06,520
Speaker 2: movie's credit that we do see, while we do see

1171
01:07:06,760 --> 01:07:09,600
Speaker 2: a lot of physical abuse coming from Mark, particularly in

1172
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:13,000
Speaker 2: the first half of the movie, I feel like, I

1173
01:07:13,200 --> 01:07:15,240
Speaker 2: don't you don't I mean, you see this unfortunately a

1174
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:19,360
Speaker 2: lot in movies, because it happens a lot in life.

1175
01:07:17,600 --> 01:07:17,680
Speaker 3: But.

1176
01:07:19,160 --> 01:07:21,960
Speaker 2: I do feel like it appropriately and maybe this is

1177
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:25,280
Speaker 2: the Sam Neil performance. He seems like a coward when

1178
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:29,120
Speaker 2: he is attacking her, And I don't know like how

1179
01:07:29,160 --> 01:07:33,760
Speaker 2: to exactly, but like you can feel that this abuse

1180
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:36,880
Speaker 2: comes from a place of cowardice and self hatred, as

1181
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:39,880
Speaker 2: so much abuse does, in a way that doesn't justify

1182
01:07:39,920 --> 01:07:42,240
Speaker 2: it or excuse it. I guess I'm more kind of

1183
01:07:42,240 --> 01:07:44,880
Speaker 2: inclined to give that to sam Neil because it's so

1184
01:07:45,400 --> 01:07:49,000
Speaker 2: like it's awful to watch, because it feels in a

1185
01:07:49,040 --> 01:07:52,720
Speaker 2: movie where everything feels unreal, that element to me felt

1186
01:07:52,840 --> 01:07:53,880
Speaker 2: very real.

1187
01:07:54,560 --> 01:07:57,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was gonna say. The thing I didn't know

1188
01:07:57,120 --> 01:07:59,760
Speaker 1: about it until I read this book by Alison Taylor

1189
01:08:00,160 --> 01:08:05,320
Speaker 1: is that the slapping was insisted upon by a Johnny

1190
01:08:05,400 --> 01:08:07,920
Speaker 1: and by Zulawski, and he did not want to do it.

1191
01:08:08,360 --> 01:08:12,720
Speaker 1: He sam Neil, and both him and Isabelle and Johnny

1192
01:08:12,720 --> 01:08:16,439
Speaker 1: were like abused by Zulowski during the course of filming

1193
01:08:16,479 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 1: this almost like in a Kubrickian Shelley Duvall way. Yes,

1194
01:08:20,760 --> 01:08:23,720
Speaker 1: there's I wanted to share it because, Yeah, Johnny has

1195
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:26,160
Speaker 1: talked about it more, which I guess makes sense because

1196
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:29,479
Speaker 1: I'm presumably she was subject to more of it. Yeah,

1197
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:32,280
Speaker 1: because yeah, we kend in spite of the fact that

1198
01:08:32,320 --> 01:08:36,720
Speaker 1: I really like this movie, Zulawski as a person is

1199
01:08:37,800 --> 01:08:41,080
Speaker 1: I mean, he's a scumbag. He's an interesting scumbag who

1200
01:08:41,400 --> 01:08:44,160
Speaker 1: was subject to a lot of political violet and we

1201
01:08:44,200 --> 01:08:46,479
Speaker 1: can talk about that side of his life too, because

1202
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,080
Speaker 1: like it wasn't like he wasn't wronged by the state

1203
01:08:49,160 --> 01:08:51,720
Speaker 1: time and time again. But in terms of the way

1204
01:08:51,800 --> 01:08:54,880
Speaker 1: he approached it feels like a very seventies eighties male

1205
01:08:54,960 --> 01:08:57,800
Speaker 1: o tour thing that we fortunately.

1206
01:08:57,479 --> 01:08:59,759
Speaker 2: Have talked about so much on this show, like Kubrick

1207
01:08:59,840 --> 01:09:03,720
Speaker 2: is a big example, but this is another one where

1208
01:09:03,760 --> 01:09:06,600
Speaker 2: it feels like, weirdly, David Lynch is the outlier in

1209
01:09:06,640 --> 01:09:09,920
Speaker 2: this group of directors because actors really like working with

1210
01:09:10,000 --> 01:09:12,080
Speaker 2: him and will work with him time and time again.

1211
01:09:12,160 --> 01:09:15,559
Speaker 2: Where Isabella Johnny points out, have you ever seen an

1212
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:19,880
Speaker 2: actress that's worked with him twice? Because I haven't. Yeah,

1213
01:09:19,920 --> 01:09:23,719
Speaker 2: I wanted to share some of the quotes she's given

1214
01:09:23,760 --> 01:09:26,800
Speaker 2: for this, mostly in the last five years or so,

1215
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:30,719
Speaker 2: because she's still with us and working, as is Sam Neil,

1216
01:09:30,840 --> 01:09:33,519
Speaker 2: who by all accounts seems like a seems like a

1217
01:09:33,560 --> 01:09:35,960
Speaker 2: mench I kind of want to read his memoir, right.

1218
01:09:36,680 --> 01:09:39,880
Speaker 2: The most significant thing I think that comes up, or

1219
01:09:40,000 --> 01:09:43,439
Speaker 2: came up prior to Johnny giving these interviews about five

1220
01:09:43,520 --> 01:09:47,040
Speaker 2: years ago, is that Zulowski would almost like wear as

1221
01:09:47,040 --> 01:09:50,719
Speaker 2: a badge of honor that Isabella Johnny was in such

1222
01:09:50,840 --> 01:09:56,520
Speaker 2: a bad mental state after this movie that she attempted suicide.

1223
01:09:57,240 --> 01:09:59,640
Speaker 2: This is something that is I guess mentioned in the

1224
01:10:00,680 --> 01:10:05,599
Speaker 2: commentary track on a release of Possession, where I mean,

1225
01:10:06,080 --> 01:10:08,080
Speaker 2: I have not heard him say this, but you can

1226
01:10:08,120 --> 01:10:11,200
Speaker 2: feel it. So here's he said when she saw the

1227
01:10:11,240 --> 01:10:14,000
Speaker 2: film after she committed suicide because she never wanted to

1228
01:10:14,040 --> 01:10:16,600
Speaker 2: see the dailies, so she really didn't know. How do

1229
01:10:16,680 --> 01:10:19,760
Speaker 2: we look at her? And she committed suicide. But being

1230
01:10:19,880 --> 01:10:23,880
Speaker 2: Isabelle A Johnny, you must understand in Europe, isabel A Johnny.

1231
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:24,080
Speaker 3: Is a diva.

1232
01:10:24,200 --> 01:10:26,320
Speaker 2: She's a big thing. She went to the bathroom and

1233
01:10:26,360 --> 01:10:28,439
Speaker 2: she cut her wrists with a G two machine raiser,

1234
01:10:28,520 --> 01:10:31,080
Speaker 2: which cuts you half a millimeter of skin and not

1235
01:10:31,200 --> 01:10:35,920
Speaker 2: much deeper. So he's both bragging that he drove which

1236
01:10:35,960 --> 01:10:38,360
Speaker 2: I do think a lot of directors of this ilk

1237
01:10:38,920 --> 01:10:41,200
Speaker 2: where is a badge of honor of like this? And

1238
01:10:41,240 --> 01:10:43,400
Speaker 2: I think we see this, I think the most recent

1239
01:10:43,479 --> 01:10:46,600
Speaker 2: movie where you really, I mean Jared Letto tried to

1240
01:10:46,720 --> 01:10:49,400
Speaker 2: but it did work. But like Heath Ledger's performance is

1241
01:10:49,400 --> 01:10:51,960
Speaker 2: brought up a lot of like a performance that brought

1242
01:10:52,000 --> 01:10:55,000
Speaker 2: you to the brink of your own sanity, when that

1243
01:10:55,160 --> 01:10:58,200
Speaker 2: is like not something to be happy about and just

1244
01:10:58,240 --> 01:11:00,720
Speaker 2: indicates that the production is not what it needs to

1245
01:11:00,760 --> 01:11:03,720
Speaker 2: do to protect their performers. Right. But not only is

1246
01:11:03,760 --> 01:11:09,040
Speaker 2: like Zulowski bragging that this movie he created a film

1247
01:11:09,160 --> 01:11:12,640
Speaker 2: so toxic that it was an active threat to his

1248
01:11:12,760 --> 01:11:17,120
Speaker 2: lead actor, he also in the same breath dismisses it

1249
01:11:17,160 --> 01:11:19,400
Speaker 2: as like, well, she's difficult to work with and she's

1250
01:11:19,439 --> 01:11:22,160
Speaker 2: a drama queen and she actually it wasn't actually an

1251
01:11:22,200 --> 01:11:24,360
Speaker 2: attempt on her life. It basically he's saying, like she's

1252
01:11:24,439 --> 01:11:27,240
Speaker 2: just trying to get attention because she's a diva, which

1253
01:11:27,280 --> 01:11:30,400
Speaker 2: is just like you know, in a paragraph, that's who

1254
01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:33,200
Speaker 2: this guy is, right, Like, this is a guy who

1255
01:11:33,360 --> 01:11:38,400
Speaker 2: is like, you know, making this very you could argue

1256
01:11:38,960 --> 01:11:43,160
Speaker 2: petty movie about his own divorce about a working actress

1257
01:11:43,280 --> 01:11:46,400
Speaker 2: who was still working at the time, and not that

1258
01:11:46,439 --> 01:11:48,920
Speaker 2: he's not entitled. You know, everyone's entitled to their divorce

1259
01:11:49,000 --> 01:11:54,919
Speaker 2: movie right, like the Brude the brute marriage story whatever. Everyone, Yeah,

1260
01:11:54,960 --> 01:11:58,960
Speaker 2: like you can make your divorce movie regardless of gender, whatever.

1261
01:11:59,080 --> 01:12:03,160
Speaker 2: But like, I don't know, there is this meanness that

1262
01:12:03,240 --> 01:12:06,160
Speaker 2: you feel in this movie. And at least I guess

1263
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:08,679
Speaker 2: all I can say is that he doesn't spare Mark

1264
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:12,240
Speaker 2: in that appraisal. It isn't like, oh no, poor Mark,

1265
01:12:12,320 --> 01:12:16,000
Speaker 2: Anna was so mean, Like they're both awful. But anyways,

1266
01:12:16,640 --> 01:12:22,040
Speaker 2: Isabella Johnny responds to this because Zelawski died ten years

1267
01:12:22,080 --> 01:12:26,840
Speaker 2: ago or so, she said in various interviews. His movies

1268
01:12:26,840 --> 01:12:29,240
Speaker 2: are very special, but they totally focus on women as

1269
01:12:29,280 --> 01:12:31,639
Speaker 2: if they are Lili's. It was quite an amazing film

1270
01:12:31,680 --> 01:12:33,880
Speaker 2: to do, but I got bruised inside out. It was

1271
01:12:33,920 --> 01:12:36,280
Speaker 2: exciting to do. It was no bones broken, but it

1272
01:12:36,360 --> 01:12:38,439
Speaker 2: was like how or why did I do that. I

1273
01:12:38,479 --> 01:12:43,240
Speaker 2: don't think any other actress ever did to films with him,

1274
01:12:43,720 --> 01:12:45,960
Speaker 2: She said, I consider myself a survivor for a lot

1275
01:12:46,000 --> 01:12:48,760
Speaker 2: of reasons. What's beautiful is to make a place within

1276
01:12:48,800 --> 01:12:51,800
Speaker 2: yourself for a character without that character turning into a

1277
01:12:51,800 --> 01:12:54,519
Speaker 2: negative entity. But sometimes your life gets blown apart like that.

1278
01:12:54,880 --> 01:12:57,760
Speaker 2: Great actresses have been devoured from the inside. It's kind

1279
01:12:57,800 --> 01:13:01,040
Speaker 2: of a self cannibalism. It's not a job that facilitates

1280
01:13:01,080 --> 01:13:03,720
Speaker 2: a happy frame of mind, quite the opposite. That's why

1281
01:13:03,760 --> 01:13:05,840
Speaker 2: it's important to be surrounded by friends who can be

1282
01:13:05,880 --> 01:13:10,519
Speaker 2: angels but also conscientious objectors. Otherwise you can lose yourself.

1283
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:14,080
Speaker 2: And then the last thing I wanted to share is

1284
01:13:15,479 --> 01:13:18,360
Speaker 2: I made it meaning possession so I wouldn't have to

1285
01:13:18,400 --> 01:13:20,840
Speaker 2: work all the time. And I was criticized for it.

1286
01:13:21,080 --> 01:13:23,200
Speaker 2: They said, why don't she make more films? It was

1287
01:13:23,240 --> 01:13:25,360
Speaker 2: because my parents were ill and needed me, and my

1288
01:13:25,439 --> 01:13:27,800
Speaker 2: children needed me. I even forgot that I was an

1289
01:13:27,800 --> 01:13:31,200
Speaker 2: actress at certain times, but that too isn't forgiven. Basically,

1290
01:13:31,240 --> 01:13:35,000
Speaker 2: there's no way out. So we see these references that

1291
01:13:35,040 --> 01:13:39,000
Speaker 2: she makes to the fact that this was clearly an

1292
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:42,599
Speaker 2: ego trip male filmmaker that unfortunately, this is a narrative

1293
01:13:42,640 --> 01:13:47,040
Speaker 2: we're familiar with and also something that we weirdly talked

1294
01:13:47,040 --> 01:13:52,400
Speaker 2: about recently with Kathleen Turner, where it's a prominent actor,

1295
01:13:52,439 --> 01:13:55,559
Speaker 2: she's more prominent in Europe than here, but like a

1296
01:13:55,600 --> 01:13:59,160
Speaker 2: prominent actress who is made out to be a diva

1297
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:03,120
Speaker 2: when the real she is either setting a boundary with

1298
01:14:03,160 --> 01:14:07,320
Speaker 2: an abusive filmmaker or she has things going on in

1299
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:09,840
Speaker 2: her life that are not being made space for or

1300
01:14:09,880 --> 01:14:13,360
Speaker 2: accounted for, which just seems to very much be the case.

1301
01:14:13,360 --> 01:14:16,000
Speaker 2: And I think it seems to me that, like all

1302
01:14:16,040 --> 01:14:19,000
Speaker 2: things considered, she's still pretty generous with how she talks

1303
01:14:19,000 --> 01:14:22,120
Speaker 2: about this experience, because it sounds like, I mean, she

1304
01:14:22,360 --> 01:14:24,439
Speaker 2: has never pushed back on the fact that she did

1305
01:14:24,479 --> 01:14:28,880
Speaker 2: attempt to take her life after seeing this movie, Like

1306
01:14:28,920 --> 01:14:31,760
Speaker 2: that is not something that seems to be made up,

1307
01:14:32,360 --> 01:14:34,479
Speaker 2: and it seems to be something that Sam Neil has

1308
01:14:35,280 --> 01:14:39,439
Speaker 2: confirmed as well. So I just I don't know people

1309
01:14:40,080 --> 01:14:44,240
Speaker 2: like oh, mellowtuurs, Like obviously we've talked about this for

1310
01:14:44,280 --> 01:14:47,240
Speaker 2: ten years on the show, but there are so many

1311
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:50,280
Speaker 2: There are not so many, but there are examples of

1312
01:14:51,439 --> 01:14:55,760
Speaker 2: men working through stuff in movies that is safe, and

1313
01:14:55,800 --> 01:14:57,519
Speaker 2: I feel like David Lynch is actually a really good

1314
01:14:57,520 --> 01:15:01,640
Speaker 2: example of that, as is John Water. And you know,

1315
01:15:01,680 --> 01:15:05,680
Speaker 2: people with very specific narrative voices you can do that.

1316
01:15:05,760 --> 01:15:08,720
Speaker 2: You can make a very personal movie and protect the

1317
01:15:08,800 --> 01:15:13,000
Speaker 2: people who are realizing that vision, and you should.

1318
01:15:13,040 --> 01:15:18,280
Speaker 3: But Zulaski certainly did not. So with all of this

1319
01:15:18,439 --> 01:15:24,880
Speaker 3: in mind, I kept kind of toiling over how sympathetic

1320
01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:29,000
Speaker 3: are we supposed to be to the Mark character, because true,

1321
01:15:29,040 --> 01:15:33,720
Speaker 3: the movie does not shy away from showing his violence

1322
01:15:34,160 --> 01:15:41,679
Speaker 3: and obsessiveness and abuse toward Anna. But I can't shake

1323
01:15:41,720 --> 01:15:45,840
Speaker 3: the feeling that we're still supposed to be on his

1324
01:15:46,080 --> 01:15:50,719
Speaker 3: side kind of and oh, you know, sure, he's flying

1325
01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:54,200
Speaker 3: off the deep end sometimes, but it's only because his

1326
01:15:54,400 --> 01:15:58,760
Speaker 3: wife is so hysterical. What else is he supposed to do?

1327
01:15:59,680 --> 01:16:04,120
Speaker 3: Because it's not as though he doesn't try to understand her.

1328
01:16:04,240 --> 01:16:06,479
Speaker 3: He asks her a lot of questions and there are

1329
01:16:06,520 --> 01:16:10,080
Speaker 3: many scenes where he's like, what can I do to help?

1330
01:16:10,120 --> 01:16:14,040
Speaker 3: What do you need? What is going on? Please communicate

1331
01:16:14,080 --> 01:16:18,320
Speaker 3: with me, which in theory is nice. Obviously his tone

1332
01:16:18,360 --> 01:16:21,120
Speaker 3: in the way he's handling it isn't good. But I

1333
01:16:21,120 --> 01:16:23,720
Speaker 3: think more the problem is that Anna is written to

1334
01:16:23,760 --> 01:16:29,000
Speaker 3: be a character who is just so like hysterical that

1335
01:16:29,280 --> 01:16:33,200
Speaker 3: we are meant to be like, oh what even the

1336
01:16:33,640 --> 01:16:38,080
Speaker 3: Because I watched this movie on Shutter and the short

1337
01:16:38,080 --> 01:16:43,160
Speaker 3: synopsis of the movie on the platform basically blames everything

1338
01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:46,639
Speaker 3: on her because it says something like, this stunning nightmare

1339
01:16:46,760 --> 01:16:50,479
Speaker 3: of a marriage unraveling is an experience unlike any other

1340
01:16:50,960 --> 01:16:54,040
Speaker 3: professional spy. Mark returns to his West Berlin home to

1341
01:16:54,120 --> 01:16:58,080
Speaker 3: find his wife insistent on a divorce. As Anna's frenzied

1342
01:16:58,120 --> 01:17:01,960
Speaker 3: behavior becomes ever more alarming, Mark discovers a truth far

1343
01:17:02,040 --> 01:17:04,760
Speaker 3: more sinister than his wildest suspicions.

1344
01:17:05,360 --> 01:17:09,440
Speaker 2: So I'm gonna give the benefit of the doubt and say,

1345
01:17:09,600 --> 01:17:13,320
Speaker 2: I think that's AI. Like, that sounds like a very

1346
01:17:13,439 --> 01:17:15,280
Speaker 2: AI coded right.

1347
01:17:15,400 --> 01:17:17,040
Speaker 3: But I also I think a lot of people would

1348
01:17:17,160 --> 01:17:21,120
Speaker 3: watch this movie and agree with that assessment and be like, sure,

1349
01:17:21,200 --> 01:17:24,320
Speaker 3: he yelled and he struck her.

1350
01:17:24,640 --> 01:17:28,560
Speaker 2: But she's she like drove him to it kind of, yeah, exactly.

1351
01:17:29,479 --> 01:17:34,519
Speaker 1: So it's interesting. I don't really see that. I mean,

1352
01:17:34,560 --> 01:17:36,880
Speaker 1: I see him, as I've said it, kind of this

1353
01:17:36,920 --> 01:17:39,479
Speaker 1: whole time where he is a simpleton. He's kind of

1354
01:17:39,479 --> 01:17:43,599
Speaker 1: a childlike person totally, and I only sympathize with him

1355
01:17:43,600 --> 01:17:45,840
Speaker 1: in that because it's like, oh, buddy, you don't get it.

1356
01:17:46,520 --> 01:17:49,560
Speaker 1: And I think that's maybe a part of the reclaiming

1357
01:17:49,600 --> 01:17:52,720
Speaker 1: that a lot of people, especially women, have had in

1358
01:17:52,800 --> 01:17:55,519
Speaker 1: the in the last decade toward this movie is like

1359
01:17:56,000 --> 01:18:00,560
Speaker 1: it's almost an accidental it's like an accidental feminist horror film.

1360
01:18:00,880 --> 01:18:03,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, I definitely I.

1361
01:18:03,040 --> 01:18:05,599
Speaker 3: See that reading, And of course, like, obviously I don't

1362
01:18:05,640 --> 01:18:09,479
Speaker 3: agree with oh, like she drove him to this horrible

1363
01:18:09,640 --> 01:18:12,800
Speaker 3: right behavior. But I think there would be people out

1364
01:18:12,800 --> 01:18:16,439
Speaker 3: there who would, Yeah, particularly men who would read it

1365
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:17,240
Speaker 3: that way.

1366
01:18:17,560 --> 01:18:20,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree that that's definitely like, that's the bad

1367
01:18:20,960 --> 01:18:24,160
Speaker 2: faith reading that a certain kind of person is going

1368
01:18:24,200 --> 01:18:29,240
Speaker 2: to take, particularly have a certain generation like, But totally

1369
01:18:29,320 --> 01:18:32,000
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, at least I agree. I don't. I

1370
01:18:32,000 --> 01:18:35,160
Speaker 2: don't know. I think that even when Mark is and

1371
01:18:35,200 --> 01:18:37,360
Speaker 2: again I don't, I can't pretend to know what's going

1372
01:18:37,360 --> 01:18:40,280
Speaker 2: through Zelewski's head because he is not above abusing his

1373
01:18:40,320 --> 01:18:43,880
Speaker 2: own cast. So right, I think that any takeaway from

1374
01:18:43,920 --> 01:18:48,000
Speaker 2: this that is empowering is like you you bring in

1375
01:18:48,000 --> 01:18:50,240
Speaker 2: your own baggage to it. But I'm okay with that,

1376
01:18:50,800 --> 01:18:53,000
Speaker 2: and that is I guess the thing with like a

1377
01:18:53,080 --> 01:18:56,479
Speaker 2: Lucy Goosey movie like this is like there's enough sort

1378
01:18:56,479 --> 01:18:59,080
Speaker 2: of blank space that you can project yourself onto it.

1379
01:18:59,360 --> 01:19:01,639
Speaker 2: But I do think that even it's I don't think

1380
01:19:01,640 --> 01:19:05,240
Speaker 2: we're supposed to think that when Mark is asking her

1381
01:19:05,400 --> 01:19:08,760
Speaker 2: what she's thinking, that he actually means it because the

1382
01:19:08,800 --> 01:19:10,640
Speaker 2: way that he does it, in the way that the

1383
01:19:10,680 --> 01:19:13,160
Speaker 2: performance is because also, like so much of this movie

1384
01:19:13,240 --> 01:19:18,360
Speaker 2: is the performances. He's so fucking pathetic. Like and to me,

1385
01:19:18,439 --> 01:19:21,479
Speaker 2: it's like he doesn't actually mean what he's saying. He's

1386
01:19:21,479 --> 01:19:24,160
Speaker 2: saying the thing he thinks he needs to say, because

1387
01:19:24,240 --> 01:19:27,120
Speaker 2: it's like he only reacts to I think it's like

1388
01:19:27,160 --> 01:19:29,040
Speaker 2: a really good point Lesha that he doesn't really have

1389
01:19:29,120 --> 01:19:32,880
Speaker 2: any original ideas. He just sort of does what his

1390
01:19:32,920 --> 01:19:35,679
Speaker 2: wife just did in an attempt to understand why she's

1391
01:19:35,680 --> 01:19:38,080
Speaker 2: doing it. But I don't think that he's trying to

1392
01:19:38,160 --> 01:19:41,880
Speaker 2: understand why she's feeling because he actually cares. I think

1393
01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:44,080
Speaker 2: he's just trying to understand her to the extent that

1394
01:19:44,160 --> 01:19:47,679
Speaker 2: he can own her again. And so in different scenes,

1395
01:19:47,760 --> 01:19:50,519
Speaker 2: he is reacting in the way that he thinks will

1396
01:19:50,600 --> 01:19:54,519
Speaker 2: either trick her into being closer to him or frighten

1397
01:19:54,600 --> 01:19:59,320
Speaker 2: her into staying. And like, that's right, classic abuser tactics,

1398
01:19:59,360 --> 01:20:02,320
Speaker 2: where he just sort of seems to randomly choose the

1399
01:20:02,360 --> 01:20:04,720
Speaker 2: tactic he thinks will be more successful. And this is

1400
01:20:04,800 --> 01:20:08,360
Speaker 2: I don't know, like I it's again it's so so elevated,

1401
01:20:09,240 --> 01:20:11,840
Speaker 2: but like having been in an abusive relationship is like

1402
01:20:12,120 --> 01:20:14,640
Speaker 2: sometimes an abuser will just be like okay, am I

1403
01:20:14,720 --> 01:20:17,200
Speaker 2: going to like yell and shove and throw my weight

1404
01:20:17,240 --> 01:20:19,439
Speaker 2: around to freak you out into staying or am I

1405
01:20:19,479 --> 01:20:21,559
Speaker 2: gonna fling myself on the floor and be like, oh

1406
01:20:21,560 --> 01:20:24,000
Speaker 2: my god, I'm so pathetic. I would do anything for you,

1407
01:20:24,760 --> 01:20:27,240
Speaker 2: but no one does that because they mean it. You know,

1408
01:20:27,360 --> 01:20:32,080
Speaker 2: like it's just like two different kinds of control tactics.

1409
01:20:32,800 --> 01:20:34,840
Speaker 2: And again, like speaking to your point, Kaitlin, I don't

1410
01:20:34,840 --> 01:20:40,040
Speaker 2: know exactly how aware this director is of abuse tactics,

1411
01:20:40,040 --> 01:20:43,240
Speaker 2: given that he weaponized them to make the movie. And

1412
01:20:43,600 --> 01:20:46,240
Speaker 2: you know, watching this movie, you're like, well, I hope

1413
01:20:46,240 --> 01:20:49,519
Speaker 2: his ex wife is doing well because and it seems

1414
01:20:49,520 --> 01:20:52,280
Speaker 2: like she is. She was in a long term relationship

1415
01:20:52,280 --> 01:20:56,080
Speaker 2: after this. Oh gosh, I'm going to butcher this Polish name,

1416
01:20:56,479 --> 01:21:01,160
Speaker 2: but it is based on his marriage with Malgorza Bronick.

1417
01:21:02,080 --> 01:21:06,400
Speaker 2: She went on to have a you know, forty year

1418
01:21:06,600 --> 01:21:11,040
Speaker 2: relationship that seemed very happy but that you know, down

1419
01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:16,800
Speaker 2: to They had a son, another Polish Damicut pronounce Zowery Zilowski.

1420
01:21:17,400 --> 01:21:19,400
Speaker 2: I don't know who at the time of this movie

1421
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:21,240
Speaker 2: would have been nine years old when it came out.

1422
01:21:21,280 --> 01:21:24,040
Speaker 2: So it's like, I also think that there's I don't

1423
01:21:24,040 --> 01:21:30,519
Speaker 2: know if I'm an autobiographical filmmaker, you know, to some extent,

1424
01:21:30,560 --> 01:21:32,760
Speaker 2: your past relationships are going to be fair game. It's

1425
01:21:32,760 --> 01:21:36,240
Speaker 2: gonna come up. But like when you're he killed his

1426
01:21:36,280 --> 01:21:40,160
Speaker 2: own son, I'm pretty sure, Like and if you're happy, yeah,

1427
01:21:40,280 --> 01:21:42,360
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm hoping that his nine year old was

1428
01:21:42,400 --> 01:21:43,960
Speaker 2: not allowed to see this movie when it came out.

1429
01:21:44,240 --> 01:21:45,640
Speaker 2: But it's like you grow up and see that and

1430
01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:49,000
Speaker 2: you're like, oh, what there. I don't know, I don't

1431
01:21:49,000 --> 01:21:52,360
Speaker 2: know where I'm getting to. I think that Mark. My

1432
01:21:52,840 --> 01:21:54,519
Speaker 2: rate of it is that I think we are supposed

1433
01:21:54,520 --> 01:21:57,400
Speaker 2: to view Mark as pathetic, but I guess it is

1434
01:21:57,520 --> 01:22:01,639
Speaker 2: up to the viewer of how much how much rope

1435
01:22:01,680 --> 01:22:04,519
Speaker 2: they're gonna throw him to be like, well, he's only

1436
01:22:04,680 --> 01:22:07,519
Speaker 2: pathetic because and not just what I think we all

1437
01:22:07,560 --> 01:22:10,720
Speaker 2: agree on, which is that there is an inherent patheticness

1438
01:22:10,760 --> 01:22:13,640
Speaker 2: to him because of how he's been socially conditioned. Right.

1439
01:22:15,200 --> 01:22:17,679
Speaker 3: I also think it would have been helpful if Anna

1440
01:22:17,760 --> 01:22:21,400
Speaker 3: had been characterized a bit more so that we understood

1441
01:22:21,400 --> 01:22:25,080
Speaker 3: where she was coming from. Perhaps and we can again

1442
01:22:25,200 --> 01:22:30,320
Speaker 3: like speculate and insert our own experiences and kind of

1443
01:22:30,320 --> 01:22:32,920
Speaker 3: project those on to her in a way that does

1444
01:22:33,000 --> 01:22:37,320
Speaker 3: make her more empathetic and sympathetic. But the movie doesn't

1445
01:22:37,360 --> 01:22:44,479
Speaker 3: do all that much, so you're just like the and

1446
01:22:44,479 --> 01:22:48,719
Speaker 3: then she has a tentacle boyfriend who she's making and we're.

1447
01:22:48,560 --> 01:22:51,880
Speaker 2: Like, and that is what again, I am supportive of that,

1448
01:22:52,360 --> 01:22:56,280
Speaker 2: but there, yeah, I mean, I guess that my I'm

1449
01:22:56,280 --> 01:22:58,040
Speaker 2: not trying to play a devil's advocate too much. I

1450
01:22:58,160 --> 01:23:00,439
Speaker 2: just I don't think that we really know that much

1451
01:23:00,439 --> 01:23:04,120
Speaker 2: about either of them, because it's like even Mark's backstory

1452
01:23:04,160 --> 01:23:08,160
Speaker 2: of like he's a spy is kind of just like

1453
01:23:08,240 --> 01:23:11,080
Speaker 2: played as a joke and it seems like I mean,

1454
01:23:11,120 --> 01:23:14,320
Speaker 2: and this is where I feel like there are political

1455
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:19,720
Speaker 2: undertones to this movie that I just kind of don't understand. Unfortunately,

1456
01:23:19,760 --> 01:23:23,080
Speaker 2: Like I don't have the like the history background to

1457
01:23:23,160 --> 01:23:26,360
Speaker 2: fully understand Germany in the early eighties, other than like

1458
01:23:26,680 --> 01:23:28,439
Speaker 2: obviously we know the Berlin Wall isn't going to be

1459
01:23:28,479 --> 01:23:35,000
Speaker 2: there much longer, but the whole it anytime I say this,

1460
01:23:35,120 --> 01:23:39,160
Speaker 2: I think, I'm like, it's like I Frankenstein, but go on,

1461
01:23:39,240 --> 01:23:41,400
Speaker 2: when you're in this big city but there's no people

1462
01:23:41,880 --> 01:23:44,280
Speaker 2: you know, like, and there is this feeling of like

1463
01:23:44,360 --> 01:23:48,080
Speaker 2: this large abandoned space where people are just navigating this

1464
01:23:48,120 --> 01:23:52,200
Speaker 2: psychological horror. But I also think that that is a

1465
01:23:52,240 --> 01:23:56,040
Speaker 2: statement on West Berlin at this time too, where it's

1466
01:23:56,120 --> 01:23:58,519
Speaker 2: like there are people, but where are they?

1467
01:23:58,680 --> 01:23:59,440
Speaker 3: Am?

1468
01:24:00,120 --> 01:24:03,640
Speaker 2: I don't know? Yeah, I honestly like if there are

1469
01:24:03,720 --> 01:24:07,560
Speaker 2: listeners that like understand the political undertones of this, I

1470
01:24:07,560 --> 01:24:10,320
Speaker 2: would love to hear from you, because I know that

1471
01:24:10,360 --> 01:24:12,360
Speaker 2: it's there and I just like was not able to

1472
01:24:12,439 --> 01:24:15,960
Speaker 2: quite get there in time to record this. But you know,

1473
01:24:16,000 --> 01:24:19,040
Speaker 2: suffice it to say, we've like referenced this throughout the episode,

1474
01:24:19,040 --> 01:24:23,360
Speaker 2: but that because of his previous films and ostentibly his

1475
01:24:23,640 --> 01:24:29,599
Speaker 2: like openness to leftism, Zilowski was all but thrown out

1476
01:24:29,640 --> 01:24:33,439
Speaker 2: of Polish cinema more than once, where kind of his

1477
01:24:33,479 --> 01:24:36,200
Speaker 2: whole career was bouncing back and forth to the point

1478
01:24:36,240 --> 01:24:39,559
Speaker 2: where this movie was a like, I believe, a three

1479
01:24:39,640 --> 01:24:43,760
Speaker 2: country production where it was like a Polish director and

1480
01:24:43,800 --> 01:24:47,439
Speaker 2: then a German French co production, because that was at

1481
01:24:47,520 --> 01:24:49,639
Speaker 2: the time the only way that he could make movies

1482
01:24:49,720 --> 01:24:55,320
Speaker 2: because previously, I think it was prior to Possession, he

1483
01:24:55,400 --> 01:24:59,599
Speaker 2: had worked on a movie for two years in Poland

1484
01:24:59,680 --> 01:25:03,040
Speaker 2: that the government ended up being like, you cannot release this.

1485
01:25:03,120 --> 01:25:05,760
Speaker 2: We're not gonna let you release this due to your politics.

1486
01:25:06,080 --> 01:25:10,000
Speaker 2: Burned the print, burned, the costume, basically like you know,

1487
01:25:10,200 --> 01:25:12,920
Speaker 2: nuked it so he couldn't finish it. So there is

1488
01:25:13,000 --> 01:25:18,320
Speaker 2: like not that it justifies his personal life, but this

1489
01:25:18,400 --> 01:25:22,800
Speaker 2: movie is so fraught with like anger and frustration and

1490
01:25:22,880 --> 01:25:27,320
Speaker 2: like impotence. And I mean I knew going in that

1491
01:25:27,400 --> 01:25:31,519
Speaker 2: this was related to his relationship, but also knowing that

1492
01:25:31,600 --> 01:25:34,760
Speaker 2: it also feels related to like creative impotence of like

1493
01:25:34,880 --> 01:25:37,559
Speaker 2: working on something for two years and it doesn't mean anything.

1494
01:25:38,120 --> 01:25:40,080
Speaker 2: There's just like so much going on here.

1495
01:25:40,720 --> 01:25:43,080
Speaker 1: And then this film was kept from the public for

1496
01:25:43,120 --> 01:25:45,559
Speaker 1: so long because it was caught up in the video

1497
01:25:45,680 --> 01:25:47,400
Speaker 1: Nasties scandal.

1498
01:25:47,800 --> 01:25:50,160
Speaker 2: What a great wait, can you speak to that a

1499
01:25:50,200 --> 01:25:52,720
Speaker 2: little bit because I've just learned about it, And what

1500
01:25:52,800 --> 01:25:53,960
Speaker 2: a great name for a scandal.

1501
01:25:54,280 --> 01:25:58,479
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, I mean we've had equivalent like moral panics

1502
01:25:58,520 --> 01:26:01,280
Speaker 1: in the States, But it was essentially this thing of

1503
01:26:01,320 --> 01:26:04,599
Speaker 1: the censors being like, oh no, you can't show Texas

1504
01:26:04,680 --> 01:26:07,759
Speaker 1: Chainsaw Massacre. You can't show any of these types of films,

1505
01:26:07,760 --> 01:26:09,720
Speaker 1: and so we're just going to confiscate all of them

1506
01:26:10,120 --> 01:26:12,760
Speaker 1: until we have rulings on each of these films to

1507
01:26:12,840 --> 01:26:15,120
Speaker 1: decide whether or not they're obscene. And so they were

1508
01:26:15,360 --> 01:26:18,200
Speaker 1: banned in the UK for a really long time until

1509
01:26:18,240 --> 01:26:21,839
Speaker 1: they were able to evaluate it, and like a Johnny

1510
01:26:21,960 --> 01:26:25,200
Speaker 1: and Sam Neil had to like write separate letters just

1511
01:26:25,240 --> 01:26:29,120
Speaker 1: talking about like why a quote unquote octopus fucking was

1512
01:26:29,600 --> 01:26:33,040
Speaker 1: not obscene? Like they were seriously talking about is this

1513
01:26:33,160 --> 01:26:35,280
Speaker 1: beast reality? Like what?

1514
01:26:36,040 --> 01:26:36,280
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1515
01:26:36,320 --> 01:26:39,519
Speaker 1: So they were getting really like worse than we are today,

1516
01:26:39,600 --> 01:26:41,599
Speaker 1: Like it really deep in on.

1517
01:26:41,560 --> 01:26:43,800
Speaker 2: This and it's like when we get to the point

1518
01:26:43,840 --> 01:26:46,479
Speaker 2: where like actors are having to do homework, I'm like,

1519
01:26:46,560 --> 01:26:49,559
Speaker 2: that's never that's never gonna vote well no.

1520
01:26:49,760 --> 01:26:53,440
Speaker 1: But so like eventually they're like, Okay, it's not that obscene,

1521
01:26:53,600 --> 01:26:57,639
Speaker 1: and they're like, but for us audiences, you're just gonna

1522
01:26:57,640 --> 01:27:00,280
Speaker 1: have to make several cuts and rearrange the field and

1523
01:27:00,320 --> 01:27:04,240
Speaker 1: make it linear, which what this film cannot survive that.

1524
01:27:04,800 --> 01:27:07,760
Speaker 1: So some you know people in the US were able

1525
01:27:07,800 --> 01:27:09,599
Speaker 1: to see it and they're like, what the fuck is this?

1526
01:27:09,600 --> 01:27:13,240
Speaker 1: This as horrible. So it was trash for a really

1527
01:27:13,280 --> 01:27:16,439
Speaker 1: long time until it got a proper release date I

1528
01:27:16,439 --> 01:27:19,479
Speaker 1: believe in like around two thousand and nine, and that's

1529
01:27:19,479 --> 01:27:21,960
Speaker 1: when we start to see it like on YouTube and

1530
01:27:22,040 --> 01:27:25,679
Speaker 1: appearing at you know, midnight film forums and things like that.

1531
01:27:26,200 --> 01:27:30,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, the version that was initially released in the US

1532
01:27:31,680 --> 01:27:35,400
Speaker 3: was an edited eighty one minute version of the movie,

1533
01:27:35,439 --> 01:27:38,320
Speaker 3: so about forty minutes were cut out, and it basically

1534
01:27:38,479 --> 01:27:42,400
Speaker 3: just turned the movie into like a creature feature rather

1535
01:27:42,520 --> 01:27:48,480
Speaker 3: than any story about like the breakdown of this marriage

1536
01:27:48,800 --> 01:27:52,560
Speaker 3: and all of this sort of like psychological horror components

1537
01:27:52,600 --> 01:27:54,280
Speaker 3: of the movie. It was just like, and look at

1538
01:27:54,280 --> 01:27:58,320
Speaker 3: this gooey monster. Isn't it scary? And it's like, well,

1539
01:27:58,320 --> 01:28:04,600
Speaker 3: that's not what the movie's about. No, but yeah, this

1540
01:28:05,160 --> 01:28:09,559
Speaker 3: is a very befuddling movie that I still don't know

1541
01:28:09,560 --> 01:28:10,160
Speaker 3: what to make of.

1542
01:28:10,760 --> 01:28:13,240
Speaker 1: One last thing I kind of wanted to mention was

1543
01:28:14,080 --> 01:28:17,920
Speaker 1: Kila Janniee's take on this from House of Psychotic Women.

1544
01:28:18,720 --> 01:28:22,040
Speaker 1: You guys have yes, yes, so she says, And I

1545
01:28:22,840 --> 01:28:27,360
Speaker 1: totally identify with this, she says, I can relate intensely

1546
01:28:27,360 --> 01:28:30,519
Speaker 1: to Anna's disturbing fits. In my house growing up, it

1547
01:28:30,640 --> 01:28:33,479
Speaker 1: was my voice that was a problem. I was told

1548
01:28:33,520 --> 01:28:36,160
Speaker 1: not to talk, and as Anna struggles to talk, her

1549
01:28:36,200 --> 01:28:39,880
Speaker 1: whispers become growl, screams and hyperventilating. There's a freedom in

1550
01:28:39,920 --> 01:28:43,840
Speaker 1: this kind of self obliteration, the collapse of propriety. We

1551
01:28:43,880 --> 01:28:46,600
Speaker 1: all need that place, that window of time.

1552
01:28:46,439 --> 01:28:47,679
Speaker 2: To go crazy.

1553
01:28:48,400 --> 01:28:52,360
Speaker 1: So that's how whenever I watched this film, I'm like,

1554
01:28:53,320 --> 01:28:56,720
Speaker 1: I feel like it is about a woman finally like

1555
01:28:56,800 --> 01:29:01,559
Speaker 1: figuring out how to possess herself and let loose and

1556
01:29:02,680 --> 01:29:04,880
Speaker 1: everything that comes out of her. It's sort of like,

1557
01:29:04,960 --> 01:29:07,960
Speaker 1: I don't fucking care anymore. I'm gonna find my voice.

1558
01:29:08,040 --> 01:29:11,400
Speaker 1: I'm gonna use it and fuck everybody else.

1559
01:29:11,680 --> 01:29:12,439
Speaker 2: Totally so.

1560
01:29:12,760 --> 01:29:15,400
Speaker 1: And I think that maybe a lot of people have

1561
01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:18,040
Speaker 1: like kind of come around to that reading.

1562
01:29:18,479 --> 01:29:21,080
Speaker 2: I don't know. Also, how's a psychotic woman in such

1563
01:29:21,120 --> 01:29:23,920
Speaker 2: an al teimer? It's so good, so good, it's really

1564
01:29:23,920 --> 01:29:24,519
Speaker 2: really good.

1565
01:29:24,880 --> 01:29:28,920
Speaker 3: I would more align with I mean, I see that

1566
01:29:29,000 --> 01:29:32,280
Speaker 3: interpretation for sure and again, and as a host of

1567
01:29:32,320 --> 01:29:35,800
Speaker 3: the Bechdel cast, my interpretation of this movie, or like

1568
01:29:35,840 --> 01:29:41,400
Speaker 3: my attachment to it would be aligned with that. But

1569
01:29:41,439 --> 01:29:45,240
Speaker 3: I'm having a hard time getting there. I think because

1570
01:29:46,240 --> 01:29:49,479
Speaker 3: Mark is framed as the protagonist and the main point

1571
01:29:49,479 --> 01:29:53,320
Speaker 3: of view character, we are with him for most of

1572
01:29:53,360 --> 01:29:58,080
Speaker 3: the time. When we do cut to Anna, it's because

1573
01:29:58,120 --> 01:30:02,360
Speaker 3: she's with Mark, and we just don't I feel, don't

1574
01:30:02,360 --> 01:30:07,360
Speaker 3: hone in enough on her as a character and what

1575
01:30:07,760 --> 01:30:10,880
Speaker 3: is fully going on with her. I feel like we're

1576
01:30:10,920 --> 01:30:16,120
Speaker 3: seeing her through Mark's eyes versus seeing her more objectively,

1577
01:30:17,479 --> 01:30:20,280
Speaker 3: I feel free to disagree, but as I'm watching this,

1578
01:30:21,000 --> 01:30:22,679
Speaker 3: I wish she was the point of view character.

1579
01:30:23,120 --> 01:30:25,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, no, I agree, but it's I also like,

1580
01:30:25,920 --> 01:30:28,080
Speaker 2: wouldn't want to see her as the point of view

1581
01:30:28,160 --> 01:30:30,960
Speaker 2: character from this writer's perspectives. Like, I don't really know.

1582
01:30:31,120 --> 01:30:33,800
Speaker 2: The thing is, I don't think that it's really possible

1583
01:30:34,000 --> 01:30:36,320
Speaker 2: that that's why there's there was. I don't know if

1584
01:30:36,360 --> 01:30:38,960
Speaker 2: it's still happening. I hope that it's not. But like

1585
01:30:39,240 --> 01:30:42,479
Speaker 2: there was a proposed remake of this movie starring Robert

1586
01:30:42,479 --> 01:30:45,160
Speaker 2: Pattinson and the director of Smile. So again we're like,

1587
01:30:45,680 --> 01:30:49,519
Speaker 2: which is like, no, please, don't, please don't. Yeah, lived

1588
01:30:50,000 --> 01:30:53,240
Speaker 2: write an original story, for the love of God. But

1589
01:30:53,240 --> 01:30:55,200
Speaker 2: but I see what you're saying. I just like I wouldn't.

1590
01:30:55,240 --> 01:30:58,880
Speaker 2: I don't want to know what Zilowski's like feelings from

1591
01:30:58,880 --> 01:31:02,559
Speaker 2: a female perspective would be. And and this is like

1592
01:31:02,680 --> 01:31:04,400
Speaker 2: kind of rare, and I guess sort of like pushes

1593
01:31:04,400 --> 01:31:06,080
Speaker 2: against what our show is really about. But like for

1594
01:31:06,160 --> 01:31:10,479
Speaker 2: this movie, particularly because it came it took so long

1595
01:31:10,520 --> 01:31:12,960
Speaker 2: for it to come out in its like intended form,

1596
01:31:13,400 --> 01:31:16,960
Speaker 2: I don't really care what the director's intention is because

1597
01:31:17,439 --> 01:31:21,560
Speaker 2: it's not clear. Like it's not clear, and I I

1598
01:31:21,880 --> 01:31:27,160
Speaker 2: guess I am. I really like the cathartic nature of

1599
01:31:27,200 --> 01:31:30,880
Speaker 2: this movie where I would like to know more about Anna.

1600
01:31:30,920 --> 01:31:33,639
Speaker 2: I would like it confirmed that like she was. I mean,

1601
01:31:33,680 --> 01:31:35,200
Speaker 2: it would make a lot of sense to me if

1602
01:31:35,240 --> 01:31:39,120
Speaker 2: she was a dance teacher that stepped away from dance.

1603
01:31:39,160 --> 01:31:42,920
Speaker 2: So not only is she in this unhappy marriage and

1604
01:31:43,040 --> 01:31:45,800
Speaker 2: like not happy being a mother and not fitting these

1605
01:31:45,880 --> 01:31:47,880
Speaker 2: roles that she's quote unquote supposed to fill, but she's

1606
01:31:47,920 --> 01:31:51,559
Speaker 2: also been removed from her art, and like that is

1607
01:31:51,640 --> 01:31:54,479
Speaker 2: really really compelling. I wish that, like, and I do

1608
01:31:54,479 --> 01:31:56,800
Speaker 2: think that there's space for that, because there's so much

1609
01:31:56,920 --> 01:31:59,640
Speaker 2: YadA YadA in this movie that yeah, I would be

1610
01:31:59,640 --> 01:32:01,920
Speaker 2: interested to see that version of it. But even as

1611
01:32:01,960 --> 01:32:05,960
Speaker 2: it is, I just like, I really like her. I

1612
01:32:06,160 --> 01:32:08,600
Speaker 2: like and she's and we'll get to like they are

1613
01:32:08,760 --> 01:32:12,080
Speaker 2: both really bad parents, which I do think is interesting

1614
01:32:12,400 --> 01:32:16,720
Speaker 2: in the context of like, Yeah, I will say that

1615
01:32:16,840 --> 01:32:18,840
Speaker 2: I think Mark is made out to be the better

1616
01:32:18,920 --> 01:32:22,240
Speaker 2: parent and the less negligent parent, or at least a

1617
01:32:22,280 --> 01:32:25,280
Speaker 2: parent who pretends to care, which does feel like uh

1618
01:32:25,400 --> 01:32:28,599
Speaker 2: Zilowski patting himself on the back. Meanwhile, he's killing his

1619
01:32:28,600 --> 01:32:31,799
Speaker 2: own child in his movie uh and amusing as actors.

1620
01:32:31,880 --> 01:32:35,160
Speaker 2: So fuck that, like that whole I think that that's

1621
01:32:35,200 --> 01:32:38,200
Speaker 2: the real angle that, Like I'm like, he's being overly

1622
01:32:38,240 --> 01:32:42,120
Speaker 2: generous with himself by just saying that like because his

1623
01:32:42,160 --> 01:32:44,320
Speaker 2: wife left him, she's a piece of shit parent, which

1624
01:32:44,360 --> 01:32:47,280
Speaker 2: is like, you know, something that's been weaponized against women

1625
01:32:47,439 --> 01:32:51,120
Speaker 2: for millennia, right, But like, but what I really like

1626
01:32:51,200 --> 01:32:54,360
Speaker 2: about Anna is her I don't give a fuck miss,

1627
01:32:54,400 --> 01:32:58,040
Speaker 2: Like that's so cathartic of like anytime he is I

1628
01:32:58,040 --> 01:33:00,000
Speaker 2: don't know, yeah, because it's again like you're putting yourself

1629
01:33:00,040 --> 01:33:03,320
Speaker 2: for the situation of like, uh, someone being like please,

1630
01:33:03,360 --> 01:33:04,559
Speaker 2: like do you want to be with me too? And

1631
01:33:04,600 --> 01:33:07,240
Speaker 2: she's like no, and he he's like what if I

1632
01:33:07,320 --> 01:33:09,519
Speaker 2: laid down and like kissed your feet and said love

1633
01:33:09,520 --> 01:33:11,559
Speaker 2: you so much? She's like whatever, I don't care. Like

1634
01:33:11,640 --> 01:33:15,880
Speaker 2: he cuts himself and she's like bye, Like something about that.

1635
01:33:16,200 --> 01:33:20,559
Speaker 2: It does feel like if you are in the quote

1636
01:33:20,640 --> 01:33:25,920
Speaker 2: unquote more feminine submissive role in a relationship, seeing the

1637
01:33:25,960 --> 01:33:29,479
Speaker 2: person who's expected to be that way just say exactly

1638
01:33:29,479 --> 01:33:31,840
Speaker 2: what's on their mind at all times and when they're upset,

1639
01:33:31,880 --> 01:33:36,559
Speaker 2: they scream, and when they're angry they act like, yes,

1640
01:33:36,760 --> 01:33:39,439
Speaker 2: I really connect with that, and I really like that.

1641
01:33:39,920 --> 01:33:43,720
Speaker 2: And Yeah, to me, it's like, I doubt that uh

1642
01:33:44,200 --> 01:33:48,719
Speaker 2: Zethowski was like, I'm making this movie for for people

1643
01:33:48,800 --> 01:33:52,320
Speaker 2: who who have felt like you know, who relate with Anna.

1644
01:33:52,680 --> 01:33:54,639
Speaker 2: I think he is probably making it for the people

1645
01:33:54,680 --> 01:33:56,599
Speaker 2: who relate with Mark. I just don't care totally.

1646
01:33:57,000 --> 01:34:00,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed. I will also say I that those two

1647
01:34:01,400 --> 01:34:05,360
Speaker 1: shots of the videotape of her actually talking to the camera,

1648
01:34:05,680 --> 01:34:08,280
Speaker 1: he could have just not put those in the film.

1649
01:34:08,439 --> 01:34:10,360
Speaker 1: But I do think we get at least a glimpse

1650
01:34:10,360 --> 01:34:14,679
Speaker 1: of exactly what you're saying Jamie about her feeling over

1651
01:34:14,720 --> 01:34:17,760
Speaker 1: the past year, because it is like from Heinrich's point

1652
01:34:17,760 --> 01:34:21,639
Speaker 1: of view and from their year together away from Mark,

1653
01:34:22,160 --> 01:34:25,479
Speaker 1: she is talking about this like weight that's on her

1654
01:34:25,600 --> 01:34:28,920
Speaker 1: and she's not even really being that articulate because she

1655
01:34:29,280 --> 01:34:32,799
Speaker 1: hasn't figured it out yet. She's also she's just trying

1656
01:34:32,840 --> 01:34:34,840
Speaker 1: to find the right words to say. She's speaking very

1657
01:34:34,920 --> 01:34:37,720
Speaker 1: poetically because it's all she can really think of, and

1658
01:34:37,760 --> 01:34:40,880
Speaker 1: it's almost from the perspective of someone panicked, like I've

1659
01:34:40,880 --> 01:34:45,080
Speaker 1: got myself into this really shitty position and it's still

1660
01:34:45,120 --> 01:34:47,559
Speaker 1: not enough like you, it's like kind of coded, but

1661
01:34:47,600 --> 01:34:50,360
Speaker 1: it's like you Heinrich are not exactly what I was

1662
01:34:50,360 --> 01:34:50,840
Speaker 1: looking for.

1663
01:34:50,960 --> 01:34:52,040
Speaker 3: So what is it? What have?

1664
01:34:52,800 --> 01:34:57,600
Speaker 1: How do I rebuild my faith in myself in like

1665
01:34:57,720 --> 01:35:00,960
Speaker 1: my life? Like what can I possibly do next? Like

1666
01:35:01,040 --> 01:35:03,880
Speaker 1: that whole scene could have been omitted, but it's at

1667
01:35:03,960 --> 01:35:07,880
Speaker 1: least a glimpse into that that weight of being the

1668
01:35:08,120 --> 01:35:13,640
Speaker 1: expected mother, the like domestic subservient person that she just

1669
01:35:13,640 --> 01:35:15,080
Speaker 1: doesn't want to fucking do anymore.

1670
01:35:15,479 --> 01:35:17,559
Speaker 2: Yeah, I also wish. I feel like there's a I

1671
01:35:17,600 --> 01:35:19,960
Speaker 2: do wish. I think that like if the movie had

1672
01:35:20,080 --> 01:35:26,000
Speaker 2: ended less tragically for her, although it's like with the Doppelgangers,

1673
01:35:26,439 --> 01:35:28,920
Speaker 2: it's sort of the door is open to like how

1674
01:35:28,960 --> 01:35:31,240
Speaker 2: you can perceive that. I do feel like you know,

1675
01:35:31,840 --> 01:35:35,599
Speaker 2: as is so like she gets undue punishment because it's

1676
01:35:35,640 --> 01:35:38,000
Speaker 2: like if we're looking at it from like she's looking

1677
01:35:38,479 --> 01:35:44,400
Speaker 2: for someone or something to make her feel whole or

1678
01:35:44,439 --> 01:35:47,960
Speaker 2: if not, like to make her feel free but not alone,

1679
01:35:48,439 --> 01:35:52,519
Speaker 2: which is like whatever the eternal struggle, and it's like

1680
01:35:52,840 --> 01:35:55,920
Speaker 2: motherhood hasn't done it, This marriage hasn't done it. Even

1681
01:35:56,360 --> 01:36:01,160
Speaker 2: you know, Heinrich hasn't done it, so she makes something

1682
01:36:01,320 --> 01:36:06,120
Speaker 2: to fill that void and it destroys her, and like that,

1683
01:36:07,000 --> 01:36:11,520
Speaker 2: I do feel like that is kind of misogynistic inherently

1684
01:36:11,640 --> 01:36:13,880
Speaker 2: to be like, you can't have it all and if

1685
01:36:13,880 --> 01:36:18,000
Speaker 2: you try to, you're gonna die, which you know, who

1686
01:36:18,000 --> 01:36:20,240
Speaker 2: knows that that's what he's trying to say. I just

1687
01:36:20,479 --> 01:36:22,200
Speaker 2: I don't know like it is, And it ends up

1688
01:36:22,280 --> 01:36:24,240
Speaker 2: kind of being a tragedy for the two of them

1689
01:36:24,280 --> 01:36:27,080
Speaker 2: in a way that feels I mean, at the end

1690
01:36:27,120 --> 01:36:32,040
Speaker 2: of the day, mainly unfair to Bob. Let's not forget Bob,

1691
01:36:32,240 --> 01:36:38,880
Speaker 2: Bob innocent Bob child, Yeah, but also feels unfair to

1692
01:36:39,000 --> 01:36:43,080
Speaker 2: Anna because it feels like, I mean, she never has

1693
01:36:43,320 --> 01:36:47,280
Speaker 2: someone that she can fully be herself with, like we

1694
01:36:47,320 --> 01:36:53,680
Speaker 2: see her struggle with like that, unable to feel like

1695
01:36:53,760 --> 01:36:57,879
Speaker 2: fully possessed of herself. She's just possessed by other people

1696
01:36:57,960 --> 01:37:01,559
Speaker 2: or things. And then you know, like never sort of

1697
01:37:01,640 --> 01:37:04,080
Speaker 2: reaches that point where she could be herself. She dies

1698
01:37:04,120 --> 01:37:07,719
Speaker 2: before she ever gets there. And coming from this director

1699
01:37:07,760 --> 01:37:11,840
Speaker 2: in particular, that feels mean. But I also think that

1700
01:37:11,880 --> 01:37:14,599
Speaker 2: there's ways to view it that can be I don't know.

1701
01:37:14,800 --> 01:37:17,240
Speaker 2: The second act of this movie I find very cathartic,

1702
01:37:17,360 --> 01:37:22,960
Speaker 2: and then the end I don't love honestly, Like I.

1703
01:37:22,439 --> 01:37:24,320
Speaker 3: Really lose the thread at the end.

1704
01:37:25,000 --> 01:37:27,639
Speaker 2: I think the end is like political in a way

1705
01:37:27,640 --> 01:37:30,640
Speaker 2: that I don't quite understand too, where it's like, you know,

1706
01:37:31,280 --> 01:37:35,000
Speaker 2: it seems like it's an attack from East Germany possibly

1707
01:37:35,080 --> 01:37:38,320
Speaker 2: like you know, so there is this like political tone

1708
01:37:38,320 --> 01:37:40,519
Speaker 2: to the end that I feel like if you're not

1709
01:37:41,000 --> 01:37:43,040
Speaker 2: in full understanding of what that is, it might it

1710
01:37:43,120 --> 01:37:46,200
Speaker 2: felt confusing to me. I also don't think Bob needed

1711
01:37:46,200 --> 01:37:47,960
Speaker 2: to die, Like why did it need to be so

1712
01:37:48,200 --> 01:37:51,800
Speaker 2: fully tragic? I don't know why doesn't Bob get a doppelganger?

1713
01:37:52,720 --> 01:37:53,479
Speaker 3: Riddle me that?

1714
01:37:54,400 --> 01:37:59,960
Speaker 2: Where's Bob? Too? I mean, what about Bob?

1715
01:38:00,160 --> 01:38:00,839
Speaker 3: Is the sequel?

1716
01:38:01,000 --> 01:38:01,080
Speaker 1: Now?

1717
01:38:01,160 --> 01:38:04,560
Speaker 2: I'm just kidding exactly.

1718
01:38:07,360 --> 01:38:12,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, does anyone else have anything they'd like to talk about? Yeah?

1719
01:38:12,479 --> 01:38:14,920
Speaker 1: I mean the end is so the end can go

1720
01:38:15,040 --> 01:38:18,719
Speaker 1: either way. He could be that she created the devil

1721
01:38:18,800 --> 01:38:21,080
Speaker 1: or that she created God and God is so to sturt,

1722
01:38:21,240 --> 01:38:24,280
Speaker 1: like God hates the world so much that he just

1723
01:38:24,320 --> 01:38:27,240
Speaker 1: wants to fucking destroy it. So it could be that

1724
01:38:27,360 --> 01:38:32,559
Speaker 1: she created God like it, there are many different interpretations there.

1725
01:38:32,560 --> 01:38:35,639
Speaker 2: Right, Like that's the read where her doing a staring

1726
01:38:35,680 --> 01:38:38,880
Speaker 2: contest with a crucifix is actually very significant and not

1727
01:38:38,920 --> 01:38:41,360
Speaker 2: just something that happens, which is how I view it.

1728
01:38:41,520 --> 01:38:43,760
Speaker 1: That makes sense, I know, I said I was in

1729
01:38:43,800 --> 01:38:46,439
Speaker 1: my brain, I'm like, is this her losing face faith?

1730
01:38:46,600 --> 01:38:49,120
Speaker 1: Or is she like having an immaculate conception?

1731
01:38:49,360 --> 01:38:52,960
Speaker 2: Like right, because she is like she's like ah, like

1732
01:38:53,880 --> 01:38:56,280
Speaker 2: she's like wh what is that? Yeah?

1733
01:38:56,560 --> 01:39:01,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, like I see your Jesus and I raise you

1734
01:39:02,320 --> 01:39:05,919
Speaker 3: a dopple Ganger tentacle god man.

1735
01:39:06,000 --> 01:39:12,160
Speaker 2: Like Beel's a bug? Yeah, octopus? Or is something?

1736
01:39:13,040 --> 01:39:13,320
Speaker 3: Yeah?

1737
01:39:13,640 --> 01:39:17,799
Speaker 2: I mean Ultimately, the takeaway for this movie is a shrug,

1738
01:39:17,840 --> 01:39:19,960
Speaker 2: and it depends on who you are and what you're

1739
01:39:19,960 --> 01:39:23,200
Speaker 2: bringing to the table. But it doesn't. But in the

1740
01:39:23,240 --> 01:39:26,840
Speaker 2: same way, it doesn't feel like underthought. If anything, it

1741
01:39:26,880 --> 01:39:31,200
Speaker 2: feels overthought and there's like too much. It's not like, oh,

1742
01:39:31,280 --> 01:39:33,479
Speaker 2: the plot's too thin. It's like no, there's just there's

1743
01:39:33,520 --> 01:39:37,360
Speaker 2: too much going on. Who knows yep. Indeed it doesn't

1744
01:39:37,360 --> 01:39:42,759
Speaker 2: pass the Bechdel test and no, yeah, I mean Anna

1745
01:39:43,080 --> 01:39:44,240
Speaker 2: is very isolated.

1746
01:39:44,600 --> 01:39:49,680
Speaker 3: She has one friend, Margie, who she doesn't actually interact

1747
01:39:49,720 --> 01:39:53,200
Speaker 3: with except to stab her off screen, right.

1748
01:39:53,080 --> 01:39:55,280
Speaker 2: And who also even if she has a friend, is

1749
01:39:55,320 --> 01:39:57,000
Speaker 2: not a good friend to her, we.

1750
01:39:56,880 --> 01:40:00,599
Speaker 3: Know, right, And then there's Helen, who we don't really

1751
01:40:00,680 --> 01:40:03,840
Speaker 3: know what's going on there either. Is that just kind

1752
01:40:03,880 --> 01:40:08,120
Speaker 3: of like a weird predicable Also, when Isabella Johnny is

1753
01:40:08,240 --> 01:40:12,080
Speaker 3: the Helen character, she looks so much like Dakota Johnson

1754
01:40:12,120 --> 01:40:16,840
Speaker 3: to me that I was getting very distracted the bangs,

1755
01:40:16,880 --> 01:40:19,280
Speaker 3: the bangs. Yeah, and that she has like kind of

1756
01:40:19,320 --> 01:40:22,960
Speaker 3: the same just like long auburnish hair.

1757
01:40:23,520 --> 01:40:26,400
Speaker 2: All of a sudden, it's materialists, right.

1758
01:40:26,680 --> 01:40:29,720
Speaker 3: But anyway, Helen, I don't know what to make of

1759
01:40:29,720 --> 01:40:33,679
Speaker 3: that character exactly. All this to say does not pass

1760
01:40:33,880 --> 01:40:40,160
Speaker 3: the Bechdel test. But what about our nipple scale, in

1761
01:40:40,680 --> 01:40:42,679
Speaker 3: which we rate the movie on a scale of zero

1762
01:40:42,680 --> 01:40:47,479
Speaker 3: to five nipples, examining it through an intersectional feminist lens.

1763
01:40:47,920 --> 01:40:53,600
Speaker 3: Oh god, and we're just not really sure, are we? I?

1764
01:40:53,720 --> 01:40:57,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, No, this is tough. I'm gonna go like one

1765
01:40:58,160 --> 01:41:02,360
Speaker 2: like because I feel like our scale is where intention

1766
01:41:02,560 --> 01:41:06,400
Speaker 2: needs to be considered. Yeah. Yes, And I think that

1767
01:41:06,720 --> 01:41:11,360
Speaker 2: he isn't not thinking about how Anna feels. But most

1768
01:41:11,400 --> 01:41:14,080
Speaker 2: of what I got out of the Anna character I

1769
01:41:14,160 --> 01:41:16,719
Speaker 2: didn't view as intended by the director.

1770
01:41:17,000 --> 01:41:20,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, intention is very important here, and I don't think

1771
01:41:20,400 --> 01:41:24,960
Speaker 3: the intention of Zelaski was to be like, yeah, definitely

1772
01:41:25,320 --> 01:41:30,000
Speaker 3: empathize with this woman who's behaving awesomely.

1773
01:41:30,479 --> 01:41:33,320
Speaker 2: I do think that he's he I don't know. The

1774
01:41:33,360 --> 01:41:37,360
Speaker 2: furthest I can get is like he's thinking about this woman.

1775
01:41:37,560 --> 01:41:40,360
Speaker 2: He's thinking about her. It seems like he wants to

1776
01:41:40,560 --> 01:41:44,120
Speaker 2: understand her, but also kind of gives up at some point.

1777
01:41:44,120 --> 01:41:46,920
Speaker 2: And I feel like that's where the Ed Johnny performance

1778
01:41:47,000 --> 01:41:49,720
Speaker 2: really does like, and the Sam Neil performance, I feel

1779
01:41:49,720 --> 01:41:51,880
Speaker 2: like they're doing so much heavy lifting where it's like,

1780
01:41:51,920 --> 01:41:55,400
Speaker 2: if they're not fully committed, this movie sucks.

1781
01:41:55,880 --> 01:41:58,559
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, So with all that in mind, I'll give

1782
01:41:58,600 --> 01:42:03,160
Speaker 3: the movie one nipple and I'll give it to the tentacles.

1783
01:42:03,360 --> 01:42:05,320
Speaker 3: Or do I give the movie one tentacle? I know,

1784
01:42:05,360 --> 01:42:09,080
Speaker 3: you know, is the tentacle scale this episode.

1785
01:42:08,600 --> 01:42:11,519
Speaker 2: On one of eight one of eight tentacles, I'd still

1786
01:42:11,560 --> 01:42:13,120
Speaker 2: give it one. I think one tentacle.

1787
01:42:13,280 --> 01:42:16,360
Speaker 3: I think right, well, the the creature has I think

1788
01:42:16,479 --> 01:42:20,360
Speaker 3: three tentacles, one for each arm and then one large

1789
01:42:20,360 --> 01:42:22,840
Speaker 3: one where its legs.

1790
01:42:22,479 --> 01:42:23,880
Speaker 2: Would be hm hmm.

1791
01:42:23,960 --> 01:42:26,679
Speaker 3: So maybe out of out of three tentacles, I don't,

1792
01:42:26,760 --> 01:42:28,840
Speaker 3: you know, hard to say, I'm going to give it

1793
01:42:28,880 --> 01:42:30,639
Speaker 3: one nipple. I am going to give it to one

1794
01:42:30,720 --> 01:42:36,559
Speaker 3: tentacle and shout out to Tentacles, the octopus from Legend

1795
01:42:36,640 --> 01:42:40,200
Speaker 3: of Titanic, the animated film they stole the plot of

1796
01:42:40,400 --> 01:42:42,200
Speaker 3: James Cameron's Titanic.

1797
01:42:42,200 --> 01:42:45,800
Speaker 2: And also an American tale and also Anastasia. Yes, who

1798
01:42:45,840 --> 01:42:48,040
Speaker 2: can say why, we don't know. I'm going to give

1799
01:42:48,040 --> 01:42:50,160
Speaker 2: it one nipple as well, and I'm going to give

1800
01:42:50,200 --> 01:42:55,599
Speaker 2: it to Isabella A Johnny. Just an iconic performance that

1801
01:42:55,640 --> 01:42:57,519
Speaker 2: she should not have had to suffer the way she

1802
01:42:57,560 --> 01:42:58,719
Speaker 2: did to make possible.

1803
01:42:59,560 --> 01:43:03,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, right on, it's the same for me one because

1804
01:43:04,000 --> 01:43:08,160
Speaker 1: we're talking about intent. So yeah, and I would definitely

1805
01:43:08,240 --> 01:43:16,320
Speaker 1: give it to is Bella Johnny. She's iconic and yeah.

1806
01:43:14,640 --> 01:43:16,760
Speaker 3: What a film. Thank you so much for being here,

1807
01:43:16,800 --> 01:43:18,839
Speaker 3: Alicia truly, Yeah, no, thank.

1808
01:43:18,640 --> 01:43:21,479
Speaker 1: You for having me. This is so awesome to talk about.

1809
01:43:21,640 --> 01:43:25,040
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh, what a treat. Where can people follow

1810
01:43:25,120 --> 01:43:29,240
Speaker 3: your work and your social media, etc.

1811
01:43:30,439 --> 01:43:34,439
Speaker 1: So I'm under the another pun. I'm under the handle

1812
01:43:34,840 --> 01:43:38,280
Speaker 1: at Benny and the Jesuits, so a play on June's

1813
01:43:38,720 --> 01:43:44,080
Speaker 1: Priestesses spelled like the Benny Jesuit Priestesses. And my website

1814
01:43:44,080 --> 01:43:47,760
Speaker 1: is Benny and the Jesuits and my latest thing is

1815
01:43:47,800 --> 01:43:50,639
Speaker 1: that I just put out my most recent issue of

1816
01:43:51,040 --> 01:43:55,760
Speaker 1: Resident Easel, which is Western horror done entirely in like

1817
01:43:56,640 --> 01:44:00,720
Speaker 1: black and white and toned tan goodness. And I cover

1818
01:44:01,000 --> 01:44:06,240
Speaker 1: the films Nope, Brimstone, Tremors, The Burrowers, Prey, and Rabbinus,

1819
01:44:06,600 --> 01:44:08,280
Speaker 1: that sexy sexy movie.

1820
01:44:08,080 --> 01:44:09,320
Speaker 2: Who Hell yeah.

1821
01:44:10,160 --> 01:44:15,080
Speaker 3: You can follow us on Instagram. You can subscribe to

1822
01:44:15,120 --> 01:44:20,160
Speaker 3: our Patreon aka Matreon, where you get two bonus episodes

1823
01:44:20,200 --> 01:44:24,760
Speaker 3: every single month, as well as access to our back catalog.

1824
01:44:26,560 --> 01:44:32,400
Speaker 3: With that, let's all go lay down in a bed

1825
01:44:32,479 --> 01:44:33,400
Speaker 3: full of goo.

1826
01:44:33,800 --> 01:44:37,960
Speaker 2: Hell yeah, let's all get fucked by our worst fearst tonight,

1827
01:44:38,280 --> 01:44:40,880
Speaker 2: Okay in a fun and sexy way.

1828
01:44:40,640 --> 01:44:42,639
Speaker 3: In a really passionate hot way.

1829
01:44:43,240 --> 01:44:47,639
Speaker 2: Yeah, while Sam Neil just has to stand there. Sounds great,

1830
01:44:48,840 --> 01:44:56,479
Speaker 2: Bye Bye bye. The Bechdel Cast is a production of iHeartMedia,

1831
01:44:56,640 --> 01:45:00,639
Speaker 2: hosted and produced by Me, Jamie Loftus and Me Durrante.

1832
01:45:01,040 --> 01:45:04,360
Speaker 3: The podcast is also produced by Sophie Lichtermann.

1833
01:45:04,160 --> 01:45:07,599
Speaker 4: And edited by Caitlin Durrante. Ever heard of Them? That's

1834
01:45:07,640 --> 01:45:10,960
Speaker 4: me and our logo and merch and all of our

1835
01:45:11,080 --> 01:45:14,760
Speaker 4: artwork in fact are designed by Jamie Loftus. Ever heard

1836
01:45:14,800 --> 01:45:17,120
Speaker 4: of her, Oh My God, and our.

1837
01:45:17,160 --> 01:45:20,160
Speaker 2: Theme song, by the way, was composed by Mike Kaplan.

1838
01:45:20,000 --> 01:45:23,160
Speaker 3: With vocals by Katherine Voskrasinski.

1839
01:45:22,680 --> 01:45:25,519
Speaker 2: Iconic and a special thanks to the one and only

1840
01:45:25,840 --> 01:45:27,160
Speaker 2: Aristotle Acevedo.

1841
01:45:27,680 --> 01:45:31,479
Speaker 3: For more information about the podcast, please visit Linktree Slash

1842
01:45:31,479 --> 01:45:32,240
Speaker 3: Spectelcast