1 00:00:08,960 --> 00:00:11,000 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome to Save You reprediction of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:11,039 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 2: I'm Annie Reese and I'm Lauren Vogelbaum, and today we 3 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 2: have an episode for you about Mapoutofu. 4 00:00:16,000 --> 00:00:19,360 Speaker 1: Yes, well, was there any particular reason this was on 5 00:00:19,400 --> 00:00:20,120 Speaker 1: your mind? Lauren? 6 00:00:20,760 --> 00:00:23,080 Speaker 2: It had been on our list for a long time. 7 00:00:23,079 --> 00:00:24,520 Speaker 2: I feel like I'm saying that a lot lately, but 8 00:00:24,680 --> 00:00:26,479 Speaker 2: it had been on our list for a long time. 9 00:00:27,000 --> 00:00:29,840 Speaker 1: It's a favorite dish of mine. 10 00:00:30,000 --> 00:00:32,480 Speaker 2: And I knew it was going to be a little 11 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:37,960 Speaker 2: bit intense, like I'm intimidated by the pronunciations, and I 12 00:00:38,000 --> 00:00:39,800 Speaker 2: knew that there was going to be like a lot 13 00:00:39,840 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 2: of reading to go into it. But I was like, 14 00:00:42,200 --> 00:00:45,960 Speaker 2: you know what, I want to think about Mapotofu for 15 00:00:46,159 --> 00:00:46,839 Speaker 2: a couple of days. 16 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:49,200 Speaker 1: Let's do that one and think about it. We did, 17 00:00:49,320 --> 00:00:52,400 Speaker 1: and think about it. We did. I also love Mapotofu. 18 00:00:52,760 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: I uh after our Sheshchuan Peppercorn episode, I got some immediately. 19 00:00:58,320 --> 00:01:02,640 Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it was wonderful, and now I'm in the 20 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:05,839 Speaker 1: position of I would like to have it again. 21 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 2: I was extremely mad the entire time that I was 22 00:01:11,240 --> 00:01:13,280 Speaker 2: reading about this that I was not eating it at 23 00:01:13,280 --> 00:01:14,119 Speaker 2: that current moment. 24 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,800 Speaker 1: So I'm going to rectify it soon. Oh gosh, yeah, 25 00:01:17,959 --> 00:01:22,920 Speaker 1: probably me too. So I have been to Shangdu, China, 26 00:01:23,000 --> 00:01:25,520 Speaker 1: which is we're going to be talking about, and I'm 27 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: very angry at myself. I didn't. I don't think I 28 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:31,280 Speaker 1: had any mapa tofu when I was there. Oh really, 29 00:01:31,319 --> 00:01:33,320 Speaker 1: I don't think I knew about it at that point. 30 00:01:35,040 --> 00:01:36,959 Speaker 1: I did have the hot pot, that's the famous hot 31 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:38,520 Speaker 1: pot that made me pass out because it was so 32 00:01:38,560 --> 00:01:44,080 Speaker 1: hot just for a couple of seconds. But yeah, fell 33 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 1: out of my chair and things. But I'm very sad 34 00:01:47,760 --> 00:01:52,040 Speaker 1: reading this research. I was like, I was right there. 35 00:01:54,440 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: I was right there next time, next time. Yeah. That 36 00:01:57,800 --> 00:01:59,880 Speaker 1: they've got a lot of pandas in shang Doo. They're 37 00:01:59,880 --> 00:02:07,639 Speaker 1: like pandas. Yeah. All right, Well, maybe maybe you can 38 00:02:07,760 --> 00:02:15,640 Speaker 1: see our tofu episode Shoshan Peppercorn chili oil, Sui sauce 39 00:02:15,720 --> 00:02:20,040 Speaker 1: and Goachu chong kind of I would say, sure, yeah, related. 40 00:02:21,120 --> 00:02:23,280 Speaker 1: But I guess this does bring us to our question, 41 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: Oh it does tofu? What is it? Well? 42 00:02:31,919 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 2: Mapo tofu is a savory dish that can be made 43 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 2: in many ways, but is most often or were modernly traditionally, 44 00:02:42,280 --> 00:02:46,600 Speaker 2: cubes of tofu often silk and tofu coated in this 45 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 2: like thick, rich pike and sauce that's made up of 46 00:02:51,440 --> 00:02:53,960 Speaker 2: a little bit of ground beef or ground pork, a 47 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,680 Speaker 2: some kind of fermented bean paste, hot chili oil, spicy 48 00:02:57,800 --> 00:03:02,320 Speaker 2: numbing sesshon pepper coins, and supporting flavors like flavorings like 49 00:03:02,680 --> 00:03:06,959 Speaker 2: fresh garlic and ginger, rice, wine stock, and dark soy sauce. 50 00:03:07,600 --> 00:03:11,840 Speaker 2: It winds up being silky in texture with this interesting 51 00:03:11,919 --> 00:03:14,680 Speaker 2: bit of like crunch and or chew from the bits 52 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,640 Speaker 2: in the sauce, and just layers of savory flavors set 53 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:23,320 Speaker 2: off by a touch of like bright funk, and then 54 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 2: this cascade of spicy and numbing, like you feel the 55 00:03:28,120 --> 00:03:30,720 Speaker 2: heat and then you get a little tingly numb, and 56 00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:34,360 Speaker 2: then you feel the heat again. The sauce will be 57 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:37,880 Speaker 2: like a deep red orange in color from the chili 58 00:03:37,920 --> 00:03:40,760 Speaker 2: oil and sometimes the bean paste, and it's usually topped 59 00:03:40,760 --> 00:03:43,760 Speaker 2: with some like fresh spring onions for contrast. It's often 60 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 2: served with a bowl of just like simple steamed white 61 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,560 Speaker 2: rice to kind of mellow it out and stop up 62 00:03:48,560 --> 00:03:52,600 Speaker 2: the sauce. Maybe with some side dishes, I don't know, dumplings, vegetables. 63 00:03:53,520 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 2: It is incredibly satisfying without feeling too heavy. It's like 64 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 2: being on a delicious roller coast. 65 00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: It is savory fireworks. It's it's. My favorite part of 66 00:04:07,120 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: it is the tofu, the texture of the tofu and 67 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:13,000 Speaker 1: how it absorbs the flavors. But I read a lot 68 00:04:13,040 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: of people describe it as a symphony, like it has 69 00:04:15,360 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 1: to be a symphony and everything has to be balanced out. Yeah, yeah, yeah, 70 00:04:24,760 --> 00:04:25,760 Speaker 1: Oh it's so good. Okay. 71 00:04:26,839 --> 00:04:29,800 Speaker 2: In order to really explain how this dish works, let's 72 00:04:29,839 --> 00:04:33,120 Speaker 2: break down a bit about how it's made and all 73 00:04:33,160 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 2: of those ingredients. So very basically, when you're cooking it, 74 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 2: you're you're building a sauce that has a lot of 75 00:04:39,560 --> 00:04:43,240 Speaker 2: oil to it and so at like somewhere between a 76 00:04:43,279 --> 00:04:46,799 Speaker 2: simmer and a deep fry. You're you're building in flavors 77 00:04:46,839 --> 00:04:49,080 Speaker 2: by adding in these different ingredients, and a lot of 78 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 2: these are common in Sishwang cuisine, which is where this 79 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:54,680 Speaker 2: dish is from. Okay, So let's talk about all of 80 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: these these seasoning elements that you're putting into the sauce. So, 81 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: first off, ground meat as a seasoning, you might say, 82 00:05:02,920 --> 00:05:06,640 Speaker 2: because in lots of modern cuisines that are wealthier and 83 00:05:06,680 --> 00:05:09,080 Speaker 2: more industrialized, people tend to think of meat as like 84 00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 2: the main event of a dish, but of course there 85 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:13,880 Speaker 2: are lots of traditional dishes that use meat as a seasoning, 86 00:05:13,920 --> 00:05:16,480 Speaker 2: like putting a little bit of a ham and stewed greens, 87 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,480 Speaker 2: or into a creamy pasta like carbonara, or like an 88 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:23,240 Speaker 2: omelet kind of situation. Yeah, and recipes that I've read 89 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 2: really range in your proportion of meat to tofu anywhere 90 00:05:28,440 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 2: from like one part meat to two parts tofu to 91 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,200 Speaker 2: like six parts tofu. This is a personal preference. There's 92 00:05:35,560 --> 00:05:38,760 Speaker 2: no wrong answer unless someone is telling you that you 93 00:05:38,760 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 2: have a wrong answer, and then y'all can argue it out. 94 00:05:41,400 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 2: But yeah, ground beef or pork is usually called for 95 00:05:44,440 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 2: these days for convenience, but you can mince your own 96 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,560 Speaker 2: or use a different savory ingredient like chicken or mushrooms 97 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 2: or seafood. Traditionally, you're looking for a lean cut of 98 00:05:54,760 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 2: meat because the sauce is so high in vegetable oil 99 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:00,719 Speaker 2: of whatever kind that you don't want to like gunk 100 00:06:00,760 --> 00:06:04,280 Speaker 2: it up further with a fatty meat. The fermented bean 101 00:06:04,360 --> 00:06:08,520 Speaker 2: paste in question can be a couple of different things. 102 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,559 Speaker 2: Modernly people are really into And here's where I start 103 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:18,359 Speaker 2: trying to pronounce Chinese. I'm so sorry into Duban also 104 00:06:18,400 --> 00:06:24,919 Speaker 2: called Dubanjiang, and specifically a variety called Pichien Dubanjiang, which 105 00:06:25,080 --> 00:06:28,680 Speaker 2: is like a geographical and standard protected product, you know, 106 00:06:28,800 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 2: like like champagne. Pichian is the old name for a 107 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:34,800 Speaker 2: district in Chengdu, which is the Sechuan city where this 108 00:06:34,839 --> 00:06:38,640 Speaker 2: dish originated. As Anny was saying earlier, and the process 109 00:06:38,680 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 2: to make this type involves like fermenting a specific type 110 00:06:42,560 --> 00:06:45,840 Speaker 2: of broad beans aka fava beans, and then also fermenting 111 00:06:45,880 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 2: a specific type of chili peppers, and then fermenting them 112 00:06:48,800 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 2: both together, all in specific ways. I don't think I've 113 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:57,719 Speaker 2: had it by itself, but I understand it's like super earthy, 114 00:06:57,800 --> 00:07:01,159 Speaker 2: savory and like spicy salty. Depending on how long it 115 00:07:01,200 --> 00:07:04,839 Speaker 2: has been fermenting, it might be more like whole beans 116 00:07:05,080 --> 00:07:11,720 Speaker 2: or more bean paste, but more Traditionally recipes called for douche, 117 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,000 Speaker 2: which are like whole black soybeans that have been fermented 118 00:07:15,000 --> 00:07:19,080 Speaker 2: and salted, which are more rich and savory and like 119 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,720 Speaker 2: funky salty in flavor. But you can use either or both, 120 00:07:24,440 --> 00:07:27,400 Speaker 2: or a different fermented bean paste of your choosing, like 121 00:07:27,440 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 2: gochu jong, you can make some at home from whatever 122 00:07:30,640 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 2: you want, and I can't stop you, and I wouldn't 123 00:07:33,880 --> 00:07:37,160 Speaker 2: if I could, never, No, that would be weird. Soich 124 00:07:37,200 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 2: one peppercorn again, you can see your whole episode about it. 125 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 2: But briefly, it's a type of spice in the citrus 126 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,440 Speaker 2: family that has this really complex flavor that's both spicy 127 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,360 Speaker 2: and like tingly numbing, like like your tongue has a 128 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 2: funny bone, or your mouth briefly went to sleep. So 129 00:07:52,200 --> 00:07:56,720 Speaker 2: brief note about how heat works in food, like hot flavor, 130 00:07:56,840 --> 00:08:00,680 Speaker 2: you know, So when things feel spicy hot when you 131 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 2: eat them, it's because there are compounds in them that 132 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:08,160 Speaker 2: trigger the same nerve receptors in your mouth that sense 133 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 2: actual physical heat, So they are chemically tricking your mouth 134 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:16,040 Speaker 2: into thinking that it's slightly on fire. And different kinds 135 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:19,200 Speaker 2: of like spicy things will affect different receptors, like chili 136 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:22,600 Speaker 2: peppers affect one type of nerve receptor. A second type 137 00:08:22,640 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 2: is activated by mustards and other pungent things like cloves, garlic, cinnamon, 138 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:31,800 Speaker 2: and ginger. Black pepper hits both, and sish one pepper 139 00:08:32,320 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 2: hits both. Plus this third type altogether that has nothing 140 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 2: to do with heat, and that third receptor is one. 141 00:08:40,320 --> 00:08:44,319 Speaker 2: It's the one that your body uses to sense basically tickles, 142 00:08:44,960 --> 00:08:48,560 Speaker 2: like like extremely like light touch, like when a bug 143 00:08:48,640 --> 00:08:49,320 Speaker 2: lands on you. 144 00:08:49,480 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: Right. 145 00:08:49,960 --> 00:08:53,120 Speaker 2: The compound responsible for this is called sand shual, which 146 00:08:53,160 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 2: is named after a related plant in the same genus 147 00:08:55,920 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 2: as sish one peppercorn. And it takes a little bit 148 00:08:58,600 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 2: longer for our nervous system to register this, like up 149 00:09:02,160 --> 00:09:05,559 Speaker 2: to a full minute, but when it does, it produces 150 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:08,480 Speaker 2: the same feeling as the pins and needles that you 151 00:09:08,480 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 2: get when a limb falls asleep or when you hit 152 00:09:10,520 --> 00:09:14,120 Speaker 2: your elbow just wrong, or feel a vibration. So when 153 00:09:14,200 --> 00:09:18,720 Speaker 2: you eat sishwan peppercorn, you get heat plus pungency plus 154 00:09:18,760 --> 00:09:23,600 Speaker 2: this numbing tingly sensation and it also like that numberly 155 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 2: tingling share, let's go with it. Yeah, that also kind 156 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:32,840 Speaker 2: of like cools your nerves down. So in this case, 157 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:35,000 Speaker 2: you can eat a little bit more spicy hot stuff. 158 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 2: It just changes up, just changes up what you're feeling. 159 00:09:38,360 --> 00:09:46,560 Speaker 2: So yeah, I appreciate that. But okay, speaking of spice, 160 00:09:46,920 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 2: chili oil is oil that has had dried chilis toasted 161 00:09:50,840 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 2: in it, sometimes along with other warm or pungent spices 162 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 2: and seasonings. You often find it or make it with 163 00:09:58,040 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 2: the chili bits left in, for like a crispy chewy 164 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,880 Speaker 2: complement to the silkiness of the oil. Sometimes it's sold 165 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:08,400 Speaker 2: as chili crisp. Yeah, it's varyingly spicy and varyingly otherwise 166 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:14,360 Speaker 2: seasoned and okay. Sauces like this are often thinned and 167 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,440 Speaker 2: flavored with meat stock of some kind, And if you 168 00:10:17,480 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 2: make it on your own, you can make it with 169 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 2: some of the other usual flavorings, like a garlic ginger 170 00:10:23,120 --> 00:10:26,280 Speaker 2: and a shashing wine, which is a category of Chinese 171 00:10:26,360 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 2: rice wine. As I've said in other episodes, outside of China, 172 00:10:29,559 --> 00:10:32,360 Speaker 2: it's kind of hard to get good quality product. It's 173 00:10:32,440 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 2: usually sold as a cooking wine. A decent substitute is 174 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 2: dry sherry. If you use storbot stock that does not 175 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:41,960 Speaker 2: have these flavorings, you can add them, or you know, 176 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 2: you can add more of them either way. Dark soy 177 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,600 Speaker 2: sauce is a type of seasoning common in sauces in 178 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 2: Chinese cuisines. It's a little bit more intense than regular 179 00:10:51,440 --> 00:10:54,560 Speaker 2: or so called light soy sauce. And I don't mean 180 00:10:54,640 --> 00:10:56,560 Speaker 2: light as in low sodium. I mean light is in 181 00:10:56,640 --> 00:10:59,800 Speaker 2: not dark, although both are dark in color. Dark soy 182 00:10:59,840 --> 00:11:03,960 Speaker 2: sae is a little thicker and saltier and balanced with 183 00:11:04,000 --> 00:11:07,000 Speaker 2: like a little bit of sweetness, so a little goes 184 00:11:07,040 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 2: a long way. You're also going to want to thicken 185 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:12,679 Speaker 2: this sauce to taste with a little bit of corn starch, 186 00:11:12,880 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 2: which you're going to prepare in a slurry at about 187 00:11:15,320 --> 00:11:18,440 Speaker 2: like a one to one ratio with cool water. This 188 00:11:18,520 --> 00:11:21,360 Speaker 2: also helps the sauce achieve like a silky, clingy sort 189 00:11:21,400 --> 00:11:24,960 Speaker 2: of texture. If you've ever admired the good sheen on 190 00:11:25,160 --> 00:11:29,040 Speaker 2: Chinese type sauces, that's a quality that this slurry technique 191 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 2: helps create. Other starches like potato or tapioca can also 192 00:11:32,440 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 2: work for this type of slurry. And then tofu, it's 193 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:36,200 Speaker 2: right there in the name, we should. 194 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: Talk about it. 195 00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,439 Speaker 2: Tofu, of course, is a soy milk that has been 196 00:11:39,480 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 2: coagulated like a cheese to give you solid curds which 197 00:11:42,720 --> 00:11:45,800 Speaker 2: are then pressed and drained to different levels of firmness. 198 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:51,199 Speaker 2: And your two basic varieties of tofu, no one come 199 00:11:51,240 --> 00:11:54,480 Speaker 2: at me for our purposes today. Your two basic varieties 200 00:11:54,480 --> 00:11:58,440 Speaker 2: of tofu are ones that are coagulated with nagari, which 201 00:11:58,559 --> 00:12:03,439 Speaker 2: are an extract of salty sea water it's mostly magnesium 202 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:07,280 Speaker 2: chloride with a few other salts, and then tofu that's 203 00:12:07,280 --> 00:12:11,360 Speaker 2: coagulated with gypsum also known as calcium sulfate, which is 204 00:12:11,400 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 2: a different salt. And I didn't cover this in like 205 00:12:14,480 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 2: all of its intricacy in the tofu episode, and I'm 206 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:21,079 Speaker 2: not going to go into it that deeply here, suckers. 207 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:25,320 Speaker 2: It'll be a tail for another day. But very basically, 208 00:12:26,320 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 2: just as what happens with dairy cheese is these different 209 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 2: types of coagulants lead to different textures in your final tofu. 210 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:37,480 Speaker 2: Nagari types tend to be firmer, good for like getting 211 00:12:37,480 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 2: a sear or crumbling or other more sturdy preparations. You 212 00:12:41,840 --> 00:12:44,319 Speaker 2: might squish these types a little bit to drain them 213 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:49,599 Speaker 2: before cooking. Gypsum types tend to be looser, more gelatinous, 214 00:12:49,760 --> 00:12:53,720 Speaker 2: good for like blending or other more gentle preparations. You 215 00:12:53,760 --> 00:12:57,160 Speaker 2: don't want to squish these because they'll like shatter into 216 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 2: kind of jello like shards. You can find both varieties 217 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,040 Speaker 2: from soft to medium to firm to extra firm, and 218 00:13:05,080 --> 00:13:07,040 Speaker 2: within those ranges, it's like kind of up to your 219 00:13:07,040 --> 00:13:10,840 Speaker 2: texture preference and what you're using it for. Mapow tofu 220 00:13:11,120 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 2: is modernly traditionally made with gypsum type tofu also called 221 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 2: silken tofu, and a medium to firm firmness is best here. 222 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:22,959 Speaker 2: This means that you're going to add it towards the 223 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 2: end of cooking and be just real gentle with it. 224 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:27,880 Speaker 2: Lots of recipes also call for blanching it before adding 225 00:13:27,920 --> 00:13:30,520 Speaker 2: it to firm it up, just to pinch, but yeah, 226 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 2: it gives you a lovely like slippery feel in the 227 00:13:33,280 --> 00:13:37,920 Speaker 2: final dish. All of that said, and Dagari type tofu 228 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 2: in a soft firmness would also work well here. Some 229 00:13:41,400 --> 00:13:46,199 Speaker 2: people would argue that that is more appropriate or might 230 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:50,520 Speaker 2: have some other preference entirely, and I respect. 231 00:13:50,040 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: That very diplomatic vocabulary. 232 00:13:54,520 --> 00:13:59,199 Speaker 2: I love it to get hands up in the defensive posture. 233 00:14:02,320 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 2: So yes, as you may have guessed by now, there 234 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:10,119 Speaker 2: are many iterations on this dish, including in other cuisines 235 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:15,559 Speaker 2: like Korean, including local versions of fermented ingredients and Japanese, 236 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 2: which is generally milder, and Chinese American here, I've often 237 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:22,520 Speaker 2: seen this as a vegetarian dish without the meat, but 238 00:14:22,560 --> 00:14:25,520 Speaker 2: people do all kinds of riffs like map how eggplant 239 00:14:25,560 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 2: map how chickpeas map how on noodles instead of rice 240 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 2: like map how lasagna or pizza or poutine. You might 241 00:14:35,200 --> 00:14:38,080 Speaker 2: put in for the beef element, wag you short robes. 242 00:14:38,280 --> 00:14:41,240 Speaker 2: I don't know, put in shrimp or scallops instead of meat. 243 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 2: Put some vegetables in it, oh, diced water. Chestnuts and mushrooms. 244 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:50,840 Speaker 2: Woodier mushrooms specifically are two that I've seen in a 245 00:14:50,920 --> 00:14:53,720 Speaker 2: lot of recipes. But you know, different recipes call for 246 00:14:53,800 --> 00:14:56,960 Speaker 2: everything from like putting some leafy greens in there to 247 00:14:57,320 --> 00:15:01,840 Speaker 2: some sliced bell peppers. Anyway, had it. It's just such 248 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 2: a comfort. 249 00:15:02,400 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 1: Food, it really is, the way it soaks into the rice, yes, yes, oh. 250 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:16,680 Speaker 2: And I will say that if you're looking for these 251 00:15:16,880 --> 00:15:21,360 Speaker 2: ingredients in the US and you don't have a good 252 00:15:22,040 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 2: Asian market with a Chinese section somewhere somewhere around you, 253 00:15:25,160 --> 00:15:28,320 Speaker 2: there's an online shop called the Mala Market that has 254 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: a range of Sishwan products. I haven't shopped with them personally, 255 00:15:31,600 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 2: but I saw them recommended by a lot of the 256 00:15:33,240 --> 00:15:36,800 Speaker 2: sources that I used. So yeah, that's Mala, just m 257 00:15:36,840 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 2: A l a, which is a term meaning hot and numming. 258 00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:43,800 Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, a lot about the nutrition. 259 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 2: It really depends on how you make it. But this 260 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:48,480 Speaker 2: is a dish that will fill you up and keep 261 00:15:48,560 --> 00:15:50,520 Speaker 2: you going. It's got a lot of protein, a lot 262 00:15:50,520 --> 00:15:51,000 Speaker 2: of fats. 263 00:15:51,440 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: You know, do do eat a vegetable. We always recommend 264 00:15:55,080 --> 00:16:04,160 Speaker 1: eating a vegetable. Drink some water, you might. Oh well, 265 00:16:04,360 --> 00:16:07,320 Speaker 1: we have some numbers observations for you. 266 00:16:08,480 --> 00:16:12,760 Speaker 2: Yeah, uh yeah, not really, not particularly. There's one that's 267 00:16:12,800 --> 00:16:18,320 Speaker 2: number adjacent. Okay, So Shengdhu was the third city or 268 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:21,080 Speaker 2: the third place. I guess that Unesco enshrined as a 269 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 2: center of gastronomy, and that happened in twenty ten. Also, 270 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:31,120 Speaker 2: there is a museum of Sishwan cuisine in a suburb 271 00:16:31,280 --> 00:16:35,960 Speaker 2: a Shengdu called Pedo District. This is where that popular 272 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:39,600 Speaker 2: bean paste stuff is from. Yeah, and there I have 273 00:16:39,720 --> 00:16:42,360 Speaker 2: read that you can do a museum tour, including like 274 00:16:42,480 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 2: historical cookware and tableware. They also have some traditional style 275 00:16:47,560 --> 00:16:51,000 Speaker 2: ferments going, like you can personally stir some of that 276 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:56,080 Speaker 2: fancy bean paste. They've got chef demos, gardens, a tea house, 277 00:16:56,480 --> 00:16:59,480 Speaker 2: a fancy kitchen, god temple, and they also do some 278 00:16:59,520 --> 00:17:00,120 Speaker 2: cooking clubs. 279 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 1: Is that sounds cool? Listeners as always, if you've gone 280 00:17:06,760 --> 00:17:10,840 Speaker 1: oh yeah. 281 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:13,400 Speaker 2: I've read that they're really welcome to tourists from various places, 282 00:17:13,600 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 2: and that they will go out of their way to 283 00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 2: make sure that you've got a guide that can help 284 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,160 Speaker 2: you figure everything out. You might get laughed at by 285 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:25,640 Speaker 2: school children who are there on a. 286 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: Trip, but this is true. I was told this when 287 00:17:29,760 --> 00:17:34,200 Speaker 1: I was there. It happened. I'm glad that someone had 288 00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:40,480 Speaker 1: warned me. It was fair. I wasn't at that museum. 289 00:17:40,600 --> 00:17:49,119 Speaker 1: But another similar case, Well, we have quite the interesting 290 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:51,719 Speaker 1: history for you. Oh heck, we do. 291 00:17:52,359 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 2: Yeah, and we are going to get into that as 292 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:55,520 Speaker 2: soon as we get back from a quick break. For 293 00:17:55,520 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 2: a word from our sponsors, and we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, 294 00:18:08,080 --> 00:18:11,960 Speaker 2: thank you. Okay, So again see our Tofu episode. But 295 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 2: Tofu has been around in China for at least two 296 00:18:14,800 --> 00:18:18,440 Speaker 2: thousand years. Historians think that she Shuan peppercorn has been 297 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:20,600 Speaker 2: around in China for about the same time. 298 00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:22,840 Speaker 1: And you can see the episode we did on those 299 00:18:22,920 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: for more. Meanwhile, Chile's arrived in China in the sixteenth century. 300 00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:33,200 Speaker 1: Since this dish in particular is so popular, it has 301 00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:37,120 Speaker 1: a lot of legends behind it, and here is one 302 00:18:37,200 --> 00:18:40,960 Speaker 1: that is reported the most frequently Mapo Tofu is named 303 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:44,679 Speaker 1: after its creator, Chin Mapo. She opened to Tofu eatery 304 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:47,919 Speaker 1: in North chong Du, China, perhaps with her spouse, in 305 00:18:47,960 --> 00:18:51,959 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty two, largely aimed at serving the middle class. 306 00:18:52,480 --> 00:18:57,000 Speaker 1: At the time, it was called Chin Sieongshing Restaurant. It 307 00:18:57,040 --> 00:19:00,440 Speaker 1: was a small establishment located near Wanfu Bridge, which meant 308 00:19:00,440 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: that they got a lot of foot traffic. Yeah yeah. 309 00:19:04,080 --> 00:19:06,679 Speaker 2: It was also near the city's north gate, where a 310 00:19:06,720 --> 00:19:10,240 Speaker 2: lot of agricultural products from rice to produce to meat 311 00:19:10,280 --> 00:19:13,359 Speaker 2: to cooking oil were coming out or being brought out 312 00:19:13,400 --> 00:19:14,080 Speaker 2: of the country and. 313 00:19:14,040 --> 00:19:16,960 Speaker 1: Into the city. Yes, and this restaurant was known for 314 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 1: this tofu dishes. Chin Mapo had a very particular and 315 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:24,399 Speaker 1: somewhat unique way of cooking the tofu, resulting in a 316 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,480 Speaker 1: texture and taste that quickly won over a lot of customers. 317 00:19:28,000 --> 00:19:31,119 Speaker 1: Since the taste of the tofu was mild, it absorbed 318 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:35,040 Speaker 1: and balanced the stronger, spicier flavors of Seshuan cuisine really well, 319 00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:38,400 Speaker 1: and the texture was a nice contrast. It was beloved 320 00:19:38,480 --> 00:19:42,400 Speaker 1: enough that people started calling her signature dish after her 321 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:48,000 Speaker 1: Mapo Tofu or Mapos's tofu. Okay, So let's break that 322 00:19:48,080 --> 00:19:54,280 Speaker 1: down oh Okay. The name Ma Po allegedly comes from 323 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: a nickname for the owner of the restaurant and creator 324 00:19:56,800 --> 00:20:01,439 Speaker 1: of the dish. It translates to pock faced Grandma Ma, 325 00:20:02,040 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: meaning pock faced or pock marked Poe meaning elderly woman, 326 00:20:06,840 --> 00:20:10,119 Speaker 1: which was her nickname. I read it was meant fondly 327 00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: and that the poks were scars left from smallpox. I 328 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:18,960 Speaker 1: also read somewhere that her name was Win Choo Choo, 329 00:20:19,200 --> 00:20:21,800 Speaker 1: but at the time it was traditioned for married women 330 00:20:21,840 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 1: in China to change their name to their husband's last 331 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: name combined with their marital last name. Her husband's name 332 00:20:28,680 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: was Chen, and he was the one who had pock 333 00:20:31,400 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: marks on his face, so her name slash nickname was 334 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: largely based on him, the older wife of pock marked Chin. 335 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:48,680 Speaker 1: Mysteries History m yep. There are other largely unverified variations 336 00:20:48,760 --> 00:20:51,199 Speaker 1: on the beginnings of Mapo Tofu that boiled down to 337 00:20:51,880 --> 00:20:54,840 Speaker 1: hungry customers and to cook working with the ingredients that 338 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: they had to make something to satisfy them. Some tellings 339 00:20:58,359 --> 00:21:01,439 Speaker 1: for the story posit that oil laborers would stop on 340 00:21:01,440 --> 00:21:04,040 Speaker 1: their journeys to rest at the restaurant and give some 341 00:21:04,119 --> 00:21:07,159 Speaker 1: of their oil or even sliced pork or beef to 342 00:21:07,480 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 1: Chin ma Po, requesting that she make them a dish. 343 00:21:10,400 --> 00:21:13,000 Speaker 1: Over time, she developed a way to cook the tofu 344 00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:17,400 Speaker 1: that imparted a desirable taste and look, and this type 345 00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,800 Speaker 1: of eating wasn't uncommon for the working class in Chongdu 346 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:27,120 Speaker 1: at the time. Essentially, the establishment would provide things like rice, condiments, seasoning, pickles, 347 00:21:27,280 --> 00:21:31,159 Speaker 1: cooking knowledge, and customers would bring ingredients they wanted to 348 00:21:31,200 --> 00:21:34,200 Speaker 1: add to all those things for the chefs to cook. 349 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: Or Another story goes that because of the smallpox scars, 350 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: Chin Mapo was somewhat of an exile, especially after she 351 00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,840 Speaker 1: lost her husband in some versions, but one rainy night, 352 00:21:50,240 --> 00:21:55,280 Speaker 1: a rich industrialist took shelter inside her restaurant in chong Dou. 353 00:21:55,800 --> 00:21:58,560 Speaker 1: She scrambled through her ingredients to make him something special. 354 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,720 Speaker 1: Arriving at a tofu in poor dish that really impressed him. 355 00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: He told all of his contexts go try her tofu 356 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 1: if they were in the area. I can't say it's 357 00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 1: not true, but this sounds like a kind of romance. 358 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:21,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but right yeah, Also Shundhu, I think I've 359 00:22:21,119 --> 00:22:25,120 Speaker 2: been saying it Shangdu anyway again, apologies for my pronunciations here, 360 00:22:25,800 --> 00:22:30,679 Speaker 2: but yes, regarding the pork versus beef thing, there is 361 00:22:30,800 --> 00:22:34,159 Speaker 2: like a bunch of argument around very specific parts of 362 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,000 Speaker 2: the Internet about whether pork or beef was the original 363 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 2: meat used in this dish, and furthermore, which is more 364 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:43,800 Speaker 2: like authentic or appropriate, and a lot of writers will 365 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:47,360 Speaker 2: point to the first non printed recipe More on that 366 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:49,600 Speaker 2: in a sec which does use beef. 367 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:50,960 Speaker 1: Though I have read the. 368 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:54,879 Speaker 2: Position that that recipe was an update to the original 369 00:22:54,920 --> 00:22:58,800 Speaker 2: pork recipe that was made later when beef became less expensive, 370 00:22:58,960 --> 00:23:02,000 Speaker 2: but I wasn't there. Yeah, and you know, of course, 371 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 2: as always, people will use whatever is available and preferred. 372 00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 1: So yes, which it sounds like this is how this 373 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: recipe got started, as with many recipes. Yeah, sure, whatever 374 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:18,040 Speaker 1: the case. By nineteen oh nine, the dish had become 375 00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,520 Speaker 1: their signature dish and they changed the restaurant's name to 376 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: Chin Mapo Tofu Restaurant. The restaurant was featured in a 377 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,639 Speaker 1: Changdu guide around this time, and it was listed as 378 00:23:28,720 --> 00:23:32,320 Speaker 1: one of the most famous restaurants in Changdu. After her 379 00:23:32,400 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: husband's death, Chin Mapo was able to keep the restaurant 380 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:37,800 Speaker 1: going on her own for a while, but it soon 381 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:41,359 Speaker 1: became too much for her. She or perhaps one of 382 00:23:41,359 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 1: her daughters, hired an assistant in the nineteen twenties, she 383 00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: Chiangshun to lighten the load. He helped cook and wait tables. 384 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,119 Speaker 1: According to some food writing at the time, he was 385 00:23:54,200 --> 00:23:58,240 Speaker 1: the one that introduced the fermented bean paste pi shian 386 00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:02,199 Speaker 1: dobu jiang and from the previously used sliced pork to 387 00:24:02,280 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 1: ground pork or ground beef, two key elements in our 388 00:24:05,800 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: modern understanding of classic Mapo tofu. He also helped modernize 389 00:24:10,240 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: the restaurant in general, a different episode we haven't done, 390 00:24:16,240 --> 00:24:19,920 Speaker 1: but a curse. Research suggests that Pishang dobujan goes back 391 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 1: at least three hundred years in China, perhaps as far 392 00:24:22,400 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 1: back as sixteen sixty six, and Pichan is in Changdu Yeah, 393 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,879 Speaker 1: now called Peda District. Ye Yes. Some writings suggests that 394 00:24:31,920 --> 00:24:36,719 Speaker 1: she Chiangshan didn't use dobum jong but instead relied on 395 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,320 Speaker 1: fermented black beans or dos h a douchi, and the 396 00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,080 Speaker 1: sheshwan pepper powder was served table side to taste, which 397 00:24:43,080 --> 00:24:49,000 Speaker 1: I find really interesting. Yeah. Right. The dish soon spread 398 00:24:49,000 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: throughout China and inspired similar dishes in Korea and Taiwan, 399 00:24:52,720 --> 00:24:55,639 Speaker 1: and of course there were variations across China. 400 00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:02,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is really difficult to pin down a timeline 401 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:05,800 Speaker 2: for all of that, especially in the sources that were 402 00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,679 Speaker 2: available to me as an American English speaker. Yes, but 403 00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:14,359 Speaker 2: whatever the case, this had all kind of already entered 404 00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:20,320 Speaker 2: into this mythical part of history by this time. For example, 405 00:25:21,680 --> 00:25:25,320 Speaker 2: missus Chen appears as a character in this three part 406 00:25:26,080 --> 00:25:30,439 Speaker 2: celebrated historical novel trilogy about Sichuan, first published in nineteen 407 00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:33,159 Speaker 2: thirty six and nineteen thirty seven. The author is a 408 00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:36,200 Speaker 2: lie Ji Wren, and the book is called in translation, 409 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:40,000 Speaker 2: The Great Wave. The trilogy is a ripple on stagnant water. 410 00:25:40,800 --> 00:25:46,200 Speaker 2: The original restaurant, Chen Mapo Tofu, had to relocate after 411 00:25:46,240 --> 00:25:48,439 Speaker 2: a flood in nineteen forty seven, and there have been 412 00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,720 Speaker 2: a different a few different locations that have opened and 413 00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,680 Speaker 2: closed and opened again since then. 414 00:25:53,560 --> 00:25:56,760 Speaker 1: The first written recipe for Mapo Tofu popped up in 415 00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,600 Speaker 1: the nineteen fifties, provided by Chen Mapotu Fu, and it 416 00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 1: was pretty different from what a lot of us might 417 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 1: expect of it. It featured more meats, no du bon jiong, 418 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:11,359 Speaker 1: but doshe it did have Sichuan peppercorn though. 419 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, so okay, So this is after the Communist Revolution, 420 00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:21,280 Speaker 2: and the recipe appeared in this super interesting eleven volume 421 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:24,359 Speaker 2: series that was commissioned by the Chinese government, And I 422 00:26:24,359 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 2: get the idea that it was a little bit like propaganda, 423 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,440 Speaker 2: e as the food and beverage industry had recently been 424 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,679 Speaker 2: nationalized under the new regime. But yeah, it's got hundreds 425 00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:35,679 Speaker 2: upon hundreds of recipes in it from like twenty different 426 00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 2: regional cuisines. So yeah, I'm not sure exactly how this 427 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 2: recipe was arrived at, but here we have it. Meanwhile, 428 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:50,560 Speaker 2: in Japan, one chen kenman who had immigrated from China 429 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,600 Speaker 2: was this notable chef who opened a Sishwan restaurant in 430 00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:58,000 Speaker 2: the late nineteen fifties, and he helped popularize dishes like 431 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:02,479 Speaker 2: a mild style mapoto that's seasoned with a touch of 432 00:27:02,480 --> 00:27:06,320 Speaker 2: miso and sugar to kind of Japanese affia it and 433 00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 2: it became a whole thing in Japan. Like by the 434 00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:12,719 Speaker 2: early seventies, all of these instant MAPOs, sauces and canned 435 00:27:13,000 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 2: mapo tofu hit the market. 436 00:27:14,840 --> 00:27:17,879 Speaker 1: In the nineteen eighties, Chin mapo tofu was featured in 437 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 1: a documentary collaboration between Japan and China that was meant 438 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,960 Speaker 1: to show what China had to offer to the world, 439 00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:26,480 Speaker 1: and they showcased this dish. 440 00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 2: Then in nineteen ninety three, the TV show Iron Chef 441 00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:37,720 Speaker 2: debuted in Japan, featuring chen Kenichi, the son of chen 442 00:27:37,840 --> 00:27:40,880 Speaker 2: Kenman and a successful restauranteur in his own right. 443 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,040 Speaker 1: He was he was Iron Chef China on the. 444 00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,399 Speaker 2: Show, and his popularity on this show and his own 445 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 2: restaurant versions of the dish pushed it even further, like 446 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:53,639 Speaker 2: he now has a small fast casual chain of Mabo 447 00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:57,439 Speaker 2: Dofu specific restaurants, Mabo Dofu being the Japanese word for 448 00:27:57,480 --> 00:27:59,639 Speaker 2: the dish. Also, this doesn't really have a lot to 449 00:27:59,640 --> 00:28:01,399 Speaker 2: do with it, but I really I read about it 450 00:28:01,400 --> 00:28:03,479 Speaker 2: and I needed to put in a note here. So 451 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:06,880 Speaker 2: there was this Japanese shown in manga that came out 452 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:11,280 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety five called Chuka Ichiban or China's Number One, 453 00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,240 Speaker 2: which is about a boy who sets out to become 454 00:28:14,359 --> 00:28:17,960 Speaker 2: the best chef of Chinese cooking in period eighteen hundreds China, 455 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:21,679 Speaker 2: Like this is like a fantastical cooking and venture cereal 456 00:28:22,359 --> 00:28:24,399 Speaker 2: where chefs compete for supremacy. 457 00:28:26,000 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: And the second issue is about ma Po Tofu. 458 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,480 Speaker 2: It was also made into an anime in the late nineties, 459 00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 2: and apparently it was inspired by Chenkinichi. 460 00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:37,040 Speaker 1: Oh, I'm going to have to look into that. 461 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,680 Speaker 2: I'm realizing. I'm realizing that we have not done in 462 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,960 Speaker 2: an episode about Iron Chef, and that we probably need to. 463 00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:54,120 Speaker 1: Yes, we should, we should. I say, I breathe heavily 464 00:28:54,160 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: because I have a friend who loves Iron Chef and 465 00:28:56,440 --> 00:29:00,959 Speaker 1: she has such strong opinions that I'm worried I won't satisfy, 466 00:29:01,960 --> 00:29:03,400 Speaker 1: it won't be enough whatever I do. 467 00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I also realized that my japan notes in 468 00:29:08,760 --> 00:29:12,520 Speaker 2: this outline are like heavily Iron Chef influenced, which are 469 00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 2: probably not the full story, but it's the notes. 470 00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:19,080 Speaker 1: It's the notes that I read. So here we are. Yeah, 471 00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:22,320 Speaker 1: that it might be a shorter episode, but definitely these 472 00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: kind of other varieties of Matpo Tofu that popped up. 473 00:29:26,400 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: We could do a separate we could do a separate 474 00:29:28,360 --> 00:29:33,560 Speaker 1: thing on oh easy. Yes, Okay. So it's not entirely 475 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: clear when and how Mapo Tofu rose to popularity in 476 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:39,400 Speaker 1: the United States, but many suspect it was in part 477 00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,760 Speaker 1: thanks to buzzy seshwon Chinese restaurants like Mission Chinese Food 478 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: and the early two thousands that introduced Americans to this 479 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:47,880 Speaker 1: type of cuisine if they hadn't known about it before, 480 00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: even if only through the media. 481 00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:55,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, like there were English language printings of Mapo recipes 482 00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:58,760 Speaker 2: by like the nineteen seventies at least, but it didn't 483 00:29:58,760 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 2: seem to really catch on until later. It might have 484 00:30:01,480 --> 00:30:05,400 Speaker 2: helped that around that time English food writer Fusha Dunlop 485 00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,960 Speaker 2: began publishing books about Sichuan cuisine starting in two thousand 486 00:30:08,960 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 2: and one. 487 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: And also the rise of. 488 00:30:10,320 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 2: Food TV, which we've talked about before, including shows like 489 00:30:13,240 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 2: Iron Chef, which aired dubbed on the Food Network starting 490 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:17,560 Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety nine. 491 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,560 Speaker 1: Yes, and as people grew more interested in trying new 492 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:24,520 Speaker 1: things and new experiences like the spicy, numbing sensation of 493 00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:27,160 Speaker 1: a lot of Sheechuan cuisine that was new to a 494 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,720 Speaker 1: lot of people in the United States, the interest in 495 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:34,400 Speaker 1: sheecheuon cuisine kept growing. Another reason for the expansion of 496 00:30:34,400 --> 00:30:38,520 Speaker 1: Sechuan restaurants in the United States in the sixties, Sescheuan 497 00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:41,440 Speaker 1: peppercorns were banned in the US because they were believed 498 00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 1: to carry disease. The band was lifted in two thousand 499 00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:47,040 Speaker 1: and five, though the peppercorns had to be heat treated, 500 00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: but that was eventually lifted too. So since so much 501 00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: of this cuisine does use utilize secheuon peppercorns, it makes 502 00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:58,560 Speaker 1: sense to me that once that band was gone, we 503 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: get more sechhuon cuisine. Yeah. 504 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:06,560 Speaker 2: Absolutely also, Okay, So I couldn't find out a lot 505 00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 2: about this, but apparently in twenty twenty four, this one 506 00:31:13,640 --> 00:31:17,719 Speaker 2: Chinese seasoning blend brand paired up with this food culture 507 00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:21,480 Speaker 2: platform to do a six month study of the past 508 00:31:21,560 --> 00:31:26,040 Speaker 2: and present of mapou tofu around Hugdu like. They interviewed 509 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,800 Speaker 2: chefs and home cooks, and they held cooking workshops and 510 00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 2: eventually put out this one hundred page report called The 511 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:39,160 Speaker 2: Hunt from Mappo, which describes the dish as a as 512 00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:40,959 Speaker 2: a living communal creation. 513 00:31:41,680 --> 00:31:45,480 Speaker 1: I love that, right, Yeah. 514 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 2: I read that on like a Chinese fashion website and 515 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,920 Speaker 2: I so, I'm not sure if it's true, but it's 516 00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,440 Speaker 2: so specific that I don't understand. I don't know why 517 00:31:54,440 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 2: someone would lie about that. 518 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:03,680 Speaker 1: It would be a very very specific lie, for sure. Yeah, yeah, 519 00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,400 Speaker 1: but people do have. It was the research on this 520 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:10,320 Speaker 1: one was really interesting to see how it's changed over 521 00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: the years from what we can find. Yeah, but also 522 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:19,680 Speaker 1: just people have their very strong taste of it should 523 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:22,600 Speaker 1: be this way or oh yeah, and. 524 00:32:22,560 --> 00:32:26,280 Speaker 2: Just really specific memories around it and who they learned 525 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:28,200 Speaker 2: to the recipe from and who they learned to the 526 00:32:28,200 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 2: cooking techniques from, and just like these like deep childhood 527 00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 2: kind of things that of course are going to influence 528 00:32:36,280 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 2: your strong opinions. 529 00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 1: Yes, and you listeners know that we love that, so 530 00:32:41,400 --> 00:32:43,760 Speaker 1: we would love to hear from any of you if 531 00:32:43,800 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: you've got recipes, yeah, opinions, just wonderful memories that will 532 00:32:48,520 --> 00:32:52,360 Speaker 1: make us crave even more this dish. But I think 533 00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,800 Speaker 1: that's what we have to say about Mapo Tofu for now, 534 00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:56,680 Speaker 1: I think it is. 535 00:32:57,240 --> 00:32:59,640 Speaker 2: We do already have some listener mail for you, though, 536 00:32:59,720 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 2: and going to get into that as soon as we 537 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:06,240 Speaker 2: get back from one more quick break forward from our sponsors. 538 00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,600 Speaker 1: And we're back. Thank you sponsor, Yes, thank you, And 539 00:33:16,640 --> 00:33:29,480 Speaker 1: we're back with listener roller coaster with a satisfying m 540 00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:37,760 Speaker 1: so good, so good. So we have another a bit 541 00:33:37,800 --> 00:33:39,720 Speaker 1: longer a listener mail for you today, which you know 542 00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,280 Speaker 1: we love, so don't let that hold time back, don't 543 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: shy away, so we're going to split it. Cecilia wrote, 544 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 1: it has been quite a while since you did the 545 00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: episode about animal crackers. When I saw that title, I 546 00:33:51,520 --> 00:33:53,680 Speaker 1: was hoping you would discuss the change in animal crackers 547 00:33:53,680 --> 00:33:55,880 Speaker 1: from the ones I remembered as a child, but you 548 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,520 Speaker 1: didn't mention them. My grocery store only carries the kind 549 00:33:59,520 --> 00:34:01,960 Speaker 1: you talked to, the ones that come in the little 550 00:34:02,000 --> 00:34:06,000 Speaker 1: circus car boxes and taste kind of like Graham crackers. 551 00:34:06,520 --> 00:34:08,840 Speaker 1: But the ones I remember from long ago are still 552 00:34:08,920 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: made by Stofers. I'll attach some picks, as I did 553 00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: find some in another grocery store. I brought two big bags. 554 00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,919 Speaker 1: Those animal crackers look and taste different. The crackers are 555 00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 1: very plain looking. The animals have no features, just shapes. 556 00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:29,560 Speaker 1: I don't know of any other American cookies they taste like, 557 00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:32,280 Speaker 1: but I think they taste similar to some butter cookies 558 00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,160 Speaker 1: I buy in France. Sometimes. I want to thank you 559 00:34:35,200 --> 00:34:39,879 Speaker 1: for introducing Michelle Norris's podcast to Your Mama's Kitchen. That 560 00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:43,960 Speaker 1: has become another of my favorites. I've listened to most 561 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 1: of the episodes and none have been disappointing, and I 562 00:34:47,520 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 1: have a recommendation for you. You may already have a 563 00:34:50,360 --> 00:34:52,839 Speaker 1: list too long to keep up with, but anyway, I 564 00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:57,040 Speaker 1: think you'd enjoy an episode of the Ologies podcast with 565 00:34:57,120 --> 00:34:59,960 Speaker 1: Ali Ward. I know the name is hard to understand, 566 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: but if you check this website ologies dot com, maybe 567 00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:07,000 Speaker 1: you'll begin to understand. The episode I'm recommending is the 568 00:35:07,040 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: first one on that page formology or the study of Cheese. 569 00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 1: She goes into all kinds of information in trivia about cheese. 570 00:35:15,280 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 2: Cecilia continues, and speaking of cheese, did anyone ever write 571 00:35:19,840 --> 00:35:24,560 Speaker 2: in to clarify the pronunciation of guda? The French say guda, 572 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:27,600 Speaker 2: which is I think the way it's normally pronounced in America, 573 00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,319 Speaker 2: But in Holland, where the cheese originates, it's pronounced like 574 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:35,920 Speaker 2: how to. Only the h sound is a really guttural sound, 575 00:35:36,160 --> 00:35:40,000 Speaker 2: like the in German or Scots so carawra. 576 00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:43,319 Speaker 1: In Dutch, all geese are pronounced that way. 577 00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,239 Speaker 2: We lived in Holland for three months, and this includes, 578 00:35:47,280 --> 00:35:52,160 Speaker 2: of course Van Gogh's name, which is pronounced like fun cook. 579 00:35:52,800 --> 00:35:55,120 Speaker 2: It sounds weird if you haven't heard it before, and 580 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,879 Speaker 2: there's not much point in using that pronunciation with other 581 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,560 Speaker 2: Americans because you would just have to explain why you 582 00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:03,680 Speaker 2: said it that way. Back to the cheese. I used 583 00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 2: to buy cheese from a cheesemonger in the little town 584 00:36:06,480 --> 00:36:08,160 Speaker 2: where we lived in Holland. We lived in the part 585 00:36:08,160 --> 00:36:11,120 Speaker 2: of the Netherlands that's also called Holland. There were lots 586 00:36:11,160 --> 00:36:13,920 Speaker 2: of big wheels of gouda on the shelf behind the counter, 587 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 2: and when I asked for gouda, the seller would ask 588 00:36:16,239 --> 00:36:19,520 Speaker 2: me how old. As I remember, the choices were three, six, 589 00:36:19,680 --> 00:36:23,320 Speaker 2: nine months and older. The older it was stronger the flavor. 590 00:36:23,520 --> 00:36:25,359 Speaker 2: I liked the middle range, so would ask for six 591 00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 2: or nine months. They would pull out a big wheel 592 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:29,759 Speaker 2: and cut a wedge the size that I asked for. 593 00:36:30,320 --> 00:36:32,719 Speaker 2: I could have picked up fresh Dutch gouda in the supermarket, 594 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 2: already cut and wrapped in plastic, but this was more 595 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:39,560 Speaker 2: fun and gave me a chance to practice speaking Dutch. Also, 596 00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,280 Speaker 2: have you been having cooler weather there. It's been cooler 597 00:36:42,280 --> 00:36:44,360 Speaker 2: and rainy here for the past three days. It's strange 598 00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,520 Speaker 2: for August, but I'm enjoying the break from the heat. 599 00:36:46,680 --> 00:36:49,200 Speaker 2: It's still very humid though, Yes. 600 00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:53,080 Speaker 1: It is humid. Yes, yes to the humid. 601 00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:56,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, and yeah, yeah, we have had a few days 602 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,879 Speaker 2: of slightly cooler weather, like we had shockingly cooler weather, 603 00:36:58,920 --> 00:36:59,919 Speaker 2: like I had windows open. 604 00:37:00,960 --> 00:37:05,560 Speaker 1: We did. Me and one of my best friends have 605 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:08,399 Speaker 1: a very silly joke that is not funny at all, 606 00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:11,359 Speaker 1: but we laugh at it where we just text each 607 00:37:11,400 --> 00:37:17,600 Speaker 1: other any storm's coming from Phantom Star Wars every time 608 00:37:17,640 --> 00:37:19,200 Speaker 1: a storm comes in. And I have to tell you, 609 00:37:19,719 --> 00:37:23,720 Speaker 1: this has been a lot of just random storms lately, 610 00:37:23,800 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 1: so we've been using that text message quite a bit. 611 00:37:28,600 --> 00:37:31,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, like I didn't have to water my outdoor plants 612 00:37:31,239 --> 00:37:32,239 Speaker 2: for like a week. 613 00:37:32,320 --> 00:37:33,280 Speaker 1: It was it was wild. 614 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,279 Speaker 2: But but yeah, oh my goodness. Yeah, we'll have to 615 00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,440 Speaker 2: I know the type of animal crackers that you're talking about, 616 00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:44,799 Speaker 2: and we'll have to look into it. 617 00:37:45,680 --> 00:37:49,759 Speaker 1: This is the type of investigation that we are prepared for. 618 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:56,240 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you enjoy. Michelle Norris's podcast is amazing. 619 00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,960 Speaker 1: I'm really really thrilled anytime I can get someone to 620 00:38:00,080 --> 00:38:01,960 Speaker 1: listen to it. Yeah. 621 00:38:02,120 --> 00:38:04,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, and she was such a gem to speak with. 622 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,840 Speaker 2: Just what a what a lovely, warm human person. 623 00:38:07,000 --> 00:38:09,600 Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely, and we'll have to check out. I haven't 624 00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:11,759 Speaker 1: heard of ologies, but I will check it out. 625 00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,680 Speaker 2: Oh I have heard of it. I haven't I have 626 00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 2: not listened to it. It is on my extremely long list. 627 00:38:18,480 --> 00:38:20,279 Speaker 2: But I'm glad that they talk about things like the 628 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 2: study of cheese. 629 00:38:21,040 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 1: That's terrific. 630 00:38:22,160 --> 00:38:25,759 Speaker 2: And also Annie, heck you right in the ear for 631 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:27,520 Speaker 2: giving me all of. 632 00:38:27,360 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 1: Those I don't know what you're talking about. Those pronunciations 633 00:38:32,000 --> 00:38:35,879 Speaker 1: happen to fall on your side of the listener veil 634 00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,319 Speaker 1: had nothing to do with me. You chooses the word 635 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:42,800 Speaker 1: the listener moco. 636 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:50,239 Speaker 2: Uh in English, that is this particular sound that you're 637 00:38:50,320 --> 00:38:52,239 Speaker 2: usually like actively trying not. 638 00:38:52,280 --> 00:38:55,839 Speaker 1: To say into microphones. But I love linguistics. 639 00:38:56,440 --> 00:38:59,680 Speaker 2: I love the several different ways that human beings try 640 00:38:59,680 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 2: to pronoun Vinston Bengo's name. I know that in like 641 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,600 Speaker 2: British English, it's usually van go, which I think is 642 00:39:07,640 --> 00:39:10,240 Speaker 2: getting closer to the Dutch version. 643 00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:15,879 Speaker 1: Okay, hey, listeners, right now, how do you pronounce van 644 00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 1: go from where you are? Yeah? 645 00:39:19,360 --> 00:39:21,640 Speaker 2: But oh, but that cheese experience, Oh yeah, anytime that 646 00:39:21,680 --> 00:39:23,680 Speaker 2: you get to talk to an actual cheese bonger is 647 00:39:23,680 --> 00:39:24,359 Speaker 2: such a good day. 648 00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:25,960 Speaker 1: Oh and I love this. I love that you can 649 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:30,200 Speaker 1: ask for basically how old the cheese is and then 650 00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: get a wedge the size of your choosing. That's pretty amazing, 651 00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: a beautiful hazard that beats mine going to the supermarket 652 00:39:40,520 --> 00:39:45,400 Speaker 1: any day. Oh well, thank you so much Cecilia for 653 00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,719 Speaker 1: writing in listeners. If you'd like to write toes, you can. 654 00:39:48,840 --> 00:39:51,640 Speaker 1: You can email us at hello at savorpod dot com. 655 00:39:51,840 --> 00:39:53,080 Speaker 1: We're also on social media. 656 00:39:53,160 --> 00:39:56,160 Speaker 2: You can find us on Instagram and Blue Sky at 657 00:39:56,200 --> 00:39:58,080 Speaker 2: savor pod, and we do hope to hear from you. 658 00:39:58,640 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 1: Savor is a production of by heart Rate. 659 00:40:00,400 --> 00:40:02,399 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, you can visit 660 00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,320 Speaker 2: the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 661 00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:08,080 Speaker 2: your favorite shows. Thanks us always to our super producers 662 00:40:08,200 --> 00:40:10,840 Speaker 2: Dylan Fagan and Andrew Howard. Thanks to you for listening, 663 00:40:10,880 --> 00:40:12,520 Speaker 2: and we hope that lots more good things are coming 664 00:40:12,560 --> 00:40:21,359 Speaker 2: your way.