1 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: On this episode of nech World My guest Today. Served 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:11,280 Speaker 1: as the thirty third Undersecretary of the Navy from twenty 3 00:00:11,400 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: seventeen to twenty nineteen, and for five months as the 4 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: Acting Secretary of the Navy. Throughout his tenure, Secretary Thomas 5 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: Moldley focused on increasing agility and accountability throughout the department's 6 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:28,720 Speaker 1: workforce and in its vital business operations, including information management 7 00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:33,400 Speaker 1: that supported the war fighting pattern for both sailors and marines. 8 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: Secretary Model is the son of Eastern European immigrants who 9 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,120 Speaker 1: escaped from behind the uncurtain after World War II. He 10 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:43,720 Speaker 1: was raised in Cleveland, Ohio, before entering the Navy Academy, 11 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 1: where he graduated with distinction. He is the author of Vectors, Heroes, Villains, 12 00:00:49,960 --> 00:01:12,319 Speaker 1: and Heartbreak On the Bridge of the US Navy. Tom, 13 00:01:12,360 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: Welcome and thank you for joining me on New World. 14 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,240 Speaker 2: Thank you, mister speaker, My pleasure to be here. Thanks. 15 00:01:17,840 --> 00:01:20,920 Speaker 1: Your parents both fled oppression after World War Two. Your 16 00:01:20,920 --> 00:01:24,600 Speaker 1: father from Hungary, your mother from Yugoslavia. How did their 17 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:28,679 Speaker 1: experiences shape your own view of America and ultimately your 18 00:01:28,680 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: decision to serve in the Navy. 19 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:33,680 Speaker 2: Well, I think that's a great question, and it's fundamental too, 20 00:01:33,760 --> 00:01:36,360 Speaker 2: I think who I am in my perspectives about this country. 21 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 2: My father escaped from Hungary in nineteen forty eight when 22 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:44,600 Speaker 2: Aaron Curtain was really establishing itself in Hungary specifically, and 23 00:01:44,880 --> 00:01:47,560 Speaker 2: obviously he experienced a lot of the horrors, particularly in 24 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:51,720 Speaker 2: Budapest in the nineteen forty four forty five timeframe, he 25 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 2: was being forced to enter the Communist Party. He was 26 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:55,760 Speaker 2: a law student at the time, and he was being 27 00:01:55,840 --> 00:01:57,600 Speaker 2: forced to enter the Communist Party, and he made the 28 00:01:57,600 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 2: decision that that was not something that he wanted wanted 29 00:02:00,320 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 2: to do, so he left his entire family at the 30 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,240 Speaker 2: age of nineteen and escaped through the borders at Austria 31 00:02:06,600 --> 00:02:08,800 Speaker 2: and sort of made a deal with the United States 32 00:02:08,880 --> 00:02:11,119 Speaker 2: that he would come to the US, but he had 33 00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 2: come here for a year learn how to speak English, 34 00:02:13,440 --> 00:02:16,079 Speaker 2: and then go back into the US Army where he 35 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,880 Speaker 2: was an interpreter in Germany interrogating people that were escaping 36 00:02:19,919 --> 00:02:22,399 Speaker 2: from behind the Iron Curtain. And so it had a 37 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:25,120 Speaker 2: very profound impact on me as a young person growing 38 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 2: up in a neighborhood in Cleveland and Cleveland Heights, part 39 00:02:28,080 --> 00:02:30,760 Speaker 2: of Cleveland where the entire neighborhood was mixed. I mean 40 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 2: we had Jewish neighbors and Irish Catholic neighbors, and Polish 41 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,680 Speaker 2: immigrants and Hungarian immigrants. And it just gave me a 42 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:42,000 Speaker 2: huge appreciation for the greatness of the country and what 43 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 2: he was able to do to create this place of freedom. 44 00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:46,960 Speaker 2: From my father and from my mother as well. My 45 00:02:47,000 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 2: mother left Yugoslavia as she grew up in Novi Sad 46 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 2: and there was horrible massacres there and in the early 47 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 2: part of the war, and she also escaped those types 48 00:02:54,919 --> 00:02:56,920 Speaker 2: of things, and so they were able to come to 49 00:02:56,960 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 2: this country basically with nothing. My father would always tell 50 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 2: the story that he got off the boat in New 51 00:03:01,720 --> 00:03:03,760 Speaker 2: York City and all they gave him a dollar bill 52 00:03:03,840 --> 00:03:06,440 Speaker 2: and a pack of Lucky Strikes, which became his brand. 53 00:03:06,520 --> 00:03:08,760 Speaker 2: You know. He always smoked the Lucky Strikes until he 54 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 2: stopped smoking. But from there he was on his own, 55 00:03:11,760 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 2: and he became a very successful research chemist in Cleveland. 56 00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 2: My mother became a professor of nursing at Case Western Reserve. 57 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:21,360 Speaker 2: And it's just a great American story for them. That's 58 00:03:21,400 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 2: basically the primary influence. 59 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 1: How did their attitude towards America towards the American military. 60 00:03:28,560 --> 00:03:31,960 Speaker 1: How did that influence you in you desire to go 61 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:32,959 Speaker 1: to the Naval Academy. 62 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:36,600 Speaker 2: My father's family several people had served in the military. 63 00:03:36,840 --> 00:03:39,600 Speaker 2: His uncle, his godfather, was the tenant general in the 64 00:03:39,640 --> 00:03:43,600 Speaker 2: Hungarian military in the army. My mother's uncle was also 65 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:46,320 Speaker 2: the same. Ironically, they served together at the same time, 66 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: which they didn't realize until they met in the United 67 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: States in the nineteen fifties in Cleveland. My father was 68 00:03:51,960 --> 00:03:54,280 Speaker 2: just He didn't push me to go into the military. 69 00:03:54,360 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 2: But I looked at the various options that I had 70 00:03:56,720 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 2: coming out of high school, and looked at several liberal arts, 71 00:04:00,400 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 2: and also took a look at the Naval Academy. And 72 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 2: when I went to the Naval Academy, it just seems 73 00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 2: so unique and so different and giving me the opportunity 74 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 2: to serve back, it was sort of a no brainer. 75 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 2: When I was accepted, I decided to go. 76 00:04:12,160 --> 00:04:15,480 Speaker 1: In terms of your parents, you've visited Hungary a number 77 00:04:15,480 --> 00:04:20,760 Speaker 1: of times and you wrote about the dramatic transformation from 78 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:23,560 Speaker 1: your experience how to Budapest change. 79 00:04:24,160 --> 00:04:25,919 Speaker 2: The first time I was able to go back was 80 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:27,720 Speaker 2: the first time my father was allowed to go back 81 00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,000 Speaker 2: into the country, which was in nineteen seventy. He left 82 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:32,840 Speaker 2: in forty eight, but it took that long before he 83 00:04:32,839 --> 00:04:35,880 Speaker 2: could get approvals to come back into the country because 84 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,520 Speaker 2: even in the sixties and seventies, the Communist Party was 85 00:04:38,560 --> 00:04:43,120 Speaker 2: still interrogating people, imprisoning people for political beliefs and so on. 86 00:04:43,240 --> 00:04:45,880 Speaker 2: So I, frankly don't even know how he's able to 87 00:04:45,880 --> 00:04:47,760 Speaker 2: pull that off. He's like my sister and I back 88 00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:50,719 Speaker 2: there in nineteen seventy for the first time, and you 89 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:52,760 Speaker 2: could just sense it was different. You could sense it 90 00:04:52,800 --> 00:04:55,599 Speaker 2: was kind of an oppressive type of place, and my 91 00:04:55,640 --> 00:04:58,320 Speaker 2: father had to check in, I think once every couple 92 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,800 Speaker 2: days with the police stations so that they could tell 93 00:05:00,839 --> 00:05:03,279 Speaker 2: you what he was up to, visiting his mother and 94 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,839 Speaker 2: brothers and sisters who were still there in Hungary. I 95 00:05:05,880 --> 00:05:09,120 Speaker 2: went back again in seventy eight. It seemed very far 96 00:05:09,240 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 2: behind where we were in the United States, just with 97 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 2: respect to basic progress, economics and so on and so forth, 98 00:05:16,320 --> 00:05:18,560 Speaker 2: and then again in two thousand. But when I went 99 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,120 Speaker 2: in twenty sixteen, it was striking to me how different 100 00:05:21,160 --> 00:05:23,839 Speaker 2: it had become after the Iron Curtain had come down. 101 00:05:24,320 --> 00:05:26,279 Speaker 2: And I remember the first time I went to Hungary 102 00:05:26,320 --> 00:05:28,360 Speaker 2: on top of this beautiful parliament building, which I think 103 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,440 Speaker 2: a lot of people have seen this Parliament building but 104 00:05:30,640 --> 00:05:33,520 Speaker 2: don't recognize that it's in Budapest. But on top of 105 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:36,200 Speaker 2: that top spire there was a red Communist star on it. 106 00:05:36,960 --> 00:05:39,960 Speaker 2: And now when you walk the streets just a block 107 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 2: or so away from that beautiful parliament building, the star 108 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 2: is gone, but there's a larger than life bronze sculpture 109 00:05:46,000 --> 00:05:49,200 Speaker 2: of Ronald Reagan standing there. When you think about that 110 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:51,719 Speaker 2: in the nineteen seventies, that's something that no one could 111 00:05:51,720 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 2: have ever imagined happening. And so to me, it was 112 00:05:54,360 --> 00:05:57,880 Speaker 2: just a stark reminder of how important it was for 113 00:05:57,960 --> 00:06:00,520 Speaker 2: the United States to stand strong in the Cold Old War, 114 00:06:00,800 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 2: and we really did that on the back of the 115 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 2: strength of the strong military that we had that kept 116 00:06:05,440 --> 00:06:06,239 Speaker 2: the balance of power. 117 00:06:06,800 --> 00:06:09,760 Speaker 1: They have as a museum now the headquarters of the 118 00:06:09,800 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: Secret Police, and you can go and see whether the 119 00:06:12,880 --> 00:06:15,200 Speaker 1: people were tortured and shot in the basement, and it's 120 00:06:15,320 --> 00:06:19,159 Speaker 1: really a reminder of what these tutilitarian states were like. 121 00:06:20,200 --> 00:06:22,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's striking. As you mentioned that, I'm actually writing 122 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:24,920 Speaker 2: my second book about that right now, called The House 123 00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:28,720 Speaker 2: of Terror. It's on Andrashy Street in Budapest and the basement. 124 00:06:28,720 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 2: You're right, it was a torture chamber basically set up 125 00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:33,240 Speaker 2: by the Aarol Cross Party, which was the right wing 126 00:06:33,320 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 2: party which even the Nazis felt were too crazy to 127 00:06:36,040 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 2: take control of the government Hungary. But at the end 128 00:06:38,600 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 2: they gave them control. And it's very interesting because they 129 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:44,839 Speaker 2: used that as a political headquarters and then ultimately as 130 00:06:44,880 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 2: a torture chamber in prison. But when the Communists came 131 00:06:48,400 --> 00:06:50,919 Speaker 2: in after the war, they just basically took over the 132 00:06:51,000 --> 00:06:53,800 Speaker 2: lease and started doing the exact same thing, and they 133 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 2: did it until the seventies. They actually recruited some of 134 00:06:56,839 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 2: the same torturers that had been used by the the 135 00:07:00,240 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 2: Aarrow Cross to be the torturers there in the House 136 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:05,800 Speaker 2: of Terror. So yeah, it's an interesting museum. I was 137 00:07:05,839 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 2: just there in February and I thought it was fascinating. 138 00:07:08,600 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: You've named both John F. Kennedy and Ronald Reagan as 139 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: political heroes. To you, why is them? 140 00:07:16,440 --> 00:07:18,960 Speaker 2: Well, I think that both of them captured a spirit 141 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 2: of America. I think that they both believed in the country, 142 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:25,600 Speaker 2: in the greatness of the country, and I think both 143 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:27,880 Speaker 2: of them clearly believed that in order to sustain that, 144 00:07:27,920 --> 00:07:31,160 Speaker 2: we needed a strong military and a strong ethical military. 145 00:07:31,560 --> 00:07:34,600 Speaker 2: Both of them had, which I think is absolutely critical, 146 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 2: very unique communications skills that in this era visual era 147 00:07:40,120 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 2: that we live in, I think is just very very important, 148 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 2: and they were sort of pioneers in that space, and 149 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 2: so I've just always admired them. I used to read 150 00:07:47,480 --> 00:07:49,600 Speaker 2: a lot about when I was a midshipman. I used 151 00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:51,800 Speaker 2: to in my spirit sime I used to spend a 152 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:53,520 Speaker 2: lot of time in the library reading about Kennedy and 153 00:07:53,560 --> 00:07:57,400 Speaker 2: learning about his positions and his family, and so always 154 00:07:57,480 --> 00:08:00,960 Speaker 2: was a big admirer of him from Apolo perspective. And 155 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 2: then Reagan got elected when I was a plead with 156 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,640 Speaker 2: the Naval Academy, actually my sophomore year at the Naval Academy, 157 00:08:06,680 --> 00:08:09,800 Speaker 2: and Jimmy Carter was a Naval Academy graduate. So when 158 00:08:09,800 --> 00:08:11,560 Speaker 2: I went to the Naval Academy, I thought, Wow, this 159 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:13,560 Speaker 2: guy's a great guy. And I did admire Carter for 160 00:08:13,600 --> 00:08:16,200 Speaker 2: a lot of reasons. But Reagan came in and really 161 00:08:16,240 --> 00:08:18,680 Speaker 2: just changed the game for us in the military. I 162 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,440 Speaker 2: mean the military build up that he really pushed in 163 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:24,960 Speaker 2: with John Layman and the six hundred ship Navy. That 164 00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:28,160 Speaker 2: accreued huge benefits to us in the Navy for my 165 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 2: time in active duty, which was basically from nineteen eighty 166 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:33,000 Speaker 2: three until nineteen ninety. 167 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 1: You've also mentioned somebody who probably almost none of our 168 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:39,800 Speaker 1: listeners will know about as another hero of yours, and 169 00:08:39,840 --> 00:08:44,520 Speaker 1: that's former Representative Larry Hogan Senior. Why did that get 170 00:08:44,559 --> 00:08:44,760 Speaker 1: to you? 171 00:08:45,800 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 2: There's a personal reason for that. Larry Logans seen was 172 00:08:48,400 --> 00:08:51,679 Speaker 2: a congressman in Maryland and a part of my extended 173 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:54,800 Speaker 2: Hungarian family lived in the Silver Spring area. And the 174 00:08:54,840 --> 00:08:58,400 Speaker 2: oldest daughter of that family, the woman named Alona, She 175 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:01,880 Speaker 2: worked for Larry in Congress and Larry was divorced and 176 00:09:02,040 --> 00:09:04,920 Speaker 2: she ended up marrying him, and she married him right 177 00:09:04,960 --> 00:09:08,680 Speaker 2: around the time of the Nixon impeachment trial, and Larry 178 00:09:08,840 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 2: was on the Judiciary Committee that was chaired by Rabino 179 00:09:12,360 --> 00:09:16,679 Speaker 2: at the time, and Larry was the first Republican on 180 00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:20,439 Speaker 2: the impeachment committee to vote to impeach Nixon. And it 181 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,760 Speaker 2: was an act of I think of political courage by 182 00:09:23,840 --> 00:09:27,640 Speaker 2: Larry at the time. It pretty much ruined his political career, 183 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 2: I think in national politics because the Republican Party was 184 00:09:30,240 --> 00:09:32,880 Speaker 2: not happy with that vote. But I think he voted 185 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 2: his conscience. I think he looked at the evidence and 186 00:09:34,880 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 2: he felt that the president was involved in the cover 187 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:40,000 Speaker 2: up and felt that that wasn't appropriate, and so he 188 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,280 Speaker 2: voted his conscience. So this all happened when I was 189 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:44,319 Speaker 2: a young boy. I was twelve or thirteen years old, 190 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 2: and it was just interesting because it was on television 191 00:09:47,320 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 2: and there weren't that many television stations, and there was 192 00:09:49,600 --> 00:09:52,600 Speaker 2: my cousin's husband on TV, and so it just impacted me, 193 00:09:52,679 --> 00:09:55,600 Speaker 2: and I just was very much impressed with how important 194 00:09:55,600 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 2: it is to be courageous and to vote your conscious 195 00:09:58,440 --> 00:10:01,280 Speaker 2: and not worry so much about about party affiliation. So 196 00:10:01,400 --> 00:10:02,640 Speaker 2: to me, that's one of the reasons why. 197 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:04,720 Speaker 1: By the way, I think that's a pretty good standard, 198 00:10:04,800 --> 00:10:07,680 Speaker 1: and the whole notion that you want to know who 199 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:09,079 Speaker 1: you are and what you believe in, you ought to 200 00:10:09,080 --> 00:10:11,120 Speaker 1: have the courage to live it out. You owe that 201 00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:31,640 Speaker 1: to the country as an example of your commitment. You 202 00:10:31,760 --> 00:10:34,960 Speaker 1: served as Deputy under Secretary Defense during the George W. 203 00:10:35,040 --> 00:10:38,920 Speaker 1: Bush administration and you created the Business Transformation Agency and 204 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,680 Speaker 1: record time. Why did it matter and how did you 205 00:10:41,760 --> 00:10:43,320 Speaker 1: do it? Well? 206 00:10:43,600 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: This was an interesting story. I think this is when 207 00:10:45,520 --> 00:10:48,080 Speaker 2: I actually met you. First, mister Speaker was working with 208 00:10:48,120 --> 00:10:49,880 Speaker 2: a gentleman named Paul Brinkley, and he and now were 209 00:10:49,920 --> 00:10:53,040 Speaker 2: both Deputy and Her secretaries at the time, and the 210 00:10:53,080 --> 00:10:57,199 Speaker 2: broad business transformation effort that Secretary Rooms felt started around 211 00:10:57,200 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 2: financial management reform and the audit and basically trying to 212 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:03,120 Speaker 2: consolidate these thousands of IT systems that we had across 213 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,680 Speaker 2: the department was being run by the finance organization in 214 00:11:06,760 --> 00:11:09,920 Speaker 2: the DoD, which was the Comptrollers organization. That's where I 215 00:11:10,040 --> 00:11:14,120 Speaker 2: was seated. But I realized very quickly that responsibility became 216 00:11:14,200 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 2: mine in around two thousand and four, and I realized 217 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,840 Speaker 2: really quickly that this was not just a financially driven 218 00:11:21,040 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 2: problem or solution, that it was an enterprise level solution. 219 00:11:24,720 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 2: And the most important elements of the enterprise that impacted 220 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 2: this was basically the supply chain and the acquisition processes. 221 00:11:32,120 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 2: So Paul was a deputy under in the basically the 222 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 2: AT and L organization, which doesn't exist anymore. But they 223 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,600 Speaker 2: had the acquisition, they had the supply chain, they had 224 00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:45,440 Speaker 2: all that stuff as their responsibility. So I went to 225 00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 2: Paul and I said, Hey, Paul, why don't we join 226 00:11:48,040 --> 00:11:50,920 Speaker 2: together and do this together? And make sure that we 227 00:11:50,960 --> 00:11:53,120 Speaker 2: are at the same rank in the department, because the 228 00:11:53,120 --> 00:11:56,559 Speaker 2: way the department works, and you know this well, depending 229 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,640 Speaker 2: upon your title, your people will line up and take 230 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 2: on the people of another organization, carrying your title with them. 231 00:12:03,640 --> 00:12:05,679 Speaker 2: And I said, no matter what happens, we can't allow 232 00:12:05,720 --> 00:12:08,000 Speaker 2: our people to use our ranks against each other. So 233 00:12:08,080 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 2: let's maintain ourselves. He was actually a special assistant at 234 00:12:11,160 --> 00:12:13,840 Speaker 2: the time. We went to the White House and asked 235 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 2: that he'd be promoted to my level so that we 236 00:12:15,880 --> 00:12:19,840 Speaker 2: could work this thing cooperatively and collaboratively. And we decided 237 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 2: after a short amount of time, what the Department really 238 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:27,079 Speaker 2: needed was a separate agency that could sustain itself, pass 239 00:12:27,200 --> 00:12:30,800 Speaker 2: through administrations, and drive this change because this change is 240 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:32,560 Speaker 2: not the type of thing that happens in a couple 241 00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 2: of years. And frankly, that's one of my big concerns 242 00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,240 Speaker 2: about where we are right now, is that a lot 243 00:12:37,240 --> 00:12:40,199 Speaker 2: of the challenges facing the Navy, particularly these are forty 244 00:12:40,280 --> 00:12:42,400 Speaker 2: year problems that aren't going to be solved in two years. 245 00:12:42,480 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 2: So I'm very concerned about the lack of continuity. So 246 00:12:45,440 --> 00:12:47,840 Speaker 2: we said, let's create this agency that can create that 247 00:12:47,920 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 2: continuity and let's recruit in people from the private sector 248 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,960 Speaker 2: to help us drive this transformation. And we had a 249 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 2: fantastic boss that was a Secretary of Gordon, England. He 250 00:12:56,679 --> 00:12:59,120 Speaker 2: was a Deputy Secretary of Defense, and he gave us 251 00:12:59,120 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 2: a lot of air which is necessary in that building, 252 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:03,880 Speaker 2: and we made a lot of progress in a couple 253 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 2: of years. 254 00:13:04,720 --> 00:13:08,600 Speaker 1: You mentioned the Navy. Can you help us understand how 255 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:12,000 Speaker 1: did the Navy slide into the situations in right now 256 00:13:12,040 --> 00:13:14,319 Speaker 1: where it doesn't have enough ships, It doesn't seem to 257 00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:16,800 Speaker 1: be able to build enough ships, and it's I think 258 00:13:17,200 --> 00:13:20,079 Speaker 1: a real crisis of whether or not we can sustain 259 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:24,040 Speaker 1: our global reach, which has been dominant since nineteen forty two. 260 00:13:25,000 --> 00:13:27,439 Speaker 2: I think, as you know, it's almost like these airplane 261 00:13:27,480 --> 00:13:29,920 Speaker 2: crashes where they say it's never just one thing, it's 262 00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 2: a variety of different things that combine to create the problem. 263 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:38,120 Speaker 2: I believe this problem started when we decided to have 264 00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 2: a global war on terrorism that was going to take 265 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:43,559 Speaker 2: twenty years, and I think a lot of resources were 266 00:13:43,559 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 2: shifted over to the army into the war fighting effort, 267 00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:49,640 Speaker 2: and the Navy took the hit on that. That was 268 00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 2: then compounded by the continuing resolution situation, which I'm sure 269 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:57,680 Speaker 2: you're extremely familiar with having served in that body. The 270 00:13:57,760 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 2: fact that the CRS and the innabuild to get a 271 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:03,880 Speaker 2: budget or a strategy and just sort of managing from 272 00:14:03,920 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 2: budget cycle to budget cycle, a lot of things could compromise, 273 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:09,680 Speaker 2: and I think that's really what happened. But also I 274 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,560 Speaker 2: think what's been lacking is and I mentioned this to 275 00:14:12,600 --> 00:14:14,560 Speaker 2: the new Secretary of the Navy. I said, you know, 276 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,080 Speaker 2: you can try and plug all these leaks. There's lots 277 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:19,040 Speaker 2: of leaks here, and you can try and plug them all, 278 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:22,480 Speaker 2: but the biggest problem is we don't have a national 279 00:14:22,520 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: maritime strategy. We don't have a vision. So you can say, yeah, 280 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,320 Speaker 2: we need to fix shipbuilding, but my response to that 281 00:14:29,360 --> 00:14:32,480 Speaker 2: would be, I agree, but shipbuilding for what, Like what 282 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 2: exactly do you want the Navy to be able to 283 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 2: do and where do you want them to be able 284 00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 2: to do it? And how much are you wanting to 285 00:14:38,440 --> 00:14:41,280 Speaker 2: pay for it? And those are very sort of fundamental, 286 00:14:41,320 --> 00:14:43,400 Speaker 2: high level questions that I don't think have been answered 287 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:47,600 Speaker 2: by anybody, and they're certainly not being advocated for by 288 00:14:47,680 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 2: anybody senior enough in the government to drive it. So 289 00:14:51,920 --> 00:14:53,760 Speaker 2: I think that's part of the problem. That we have, 290 00:14:53,920 --> 00:14:55,800 Speaker 2: and so I was just looking at this list. I 291 00:14:55,840 --> 00:14:57,920 Speaker 2: talk about this in the book. I used to give 292 00:14:57,960 --> 00:15:00,600 Speaker 2: these speeches called thunder Talks, where I go out and 293 00:15:00,600 --> 00:15:02,240 Speaker 2: talk about all the things that were on my mind 294 00:15:02,240 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 2: that concern me. And they're like ten or twelve different 295 00:15:05,200 --> 00:15:07,440 Speaker 2: things on this list. And I'm just looking at him 296 00:15:07,480 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 2: this morning, like and I was in twenty seventeen, it's 297 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 2: now twenty twenty five. That is single one of these 298 00:15:11,640 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 2: things has gotten better in eight years, in my opinion, 299 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 2: And so I am very concerned about that. And I 300 00:15:18,680 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 2: think that even the entire shipbuilding strategy, I still don't 301 00:15:21,760 --> 00:15:23,920 Speaker 2: think we have one. We know we have a problem, 302 00:15:23,960 --> 00:15:25,440 Speaker 2: but I don't know what the strategy is. 303 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: The whole process you mentioned in passing here trying to 304 00:15:29,720 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: get the Pentagon auditable, because I think that's a perfect 305 00:15:34,000 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: symbol of what you're talking about. We today, I think, 306 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: have never had a successful auditor the Pentagon, despite congressional mandates. 307 00:15:44,120 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 1: Everybody sort of knows it, but somehow nothing happens. I mean, 308 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:49,080 Speaker 1: how do you explain that? 309 00:15:49,840 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 2: So I take issue with your second point, which is 310 00:15:52,000 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 2: that nothing happens. A lot of stuff has happened, a 311 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,920 Speaker 2: lot of money has been spent, but we haven't achieved 312 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 2: the result that we want. I believe you were in 313 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:03,160 Speaker 2: Congress in nineteen ninety one when the CFO Act was passed. 314 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 2: This is when it was mandated. And there's been a 315 00:16:05,480 --> 00:16:07,480 Speaker 2: lot of activity and a lot of spending, and a 316 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 2: lot of businesses have made a lot of money, and 317 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 2: a lot of people are retiring on that money that 318 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 2: was made to do this. I think the basic problem 319 00:16:14,920 --> 00:16:16,880 Speaker 2: with the financial audit and I will also correct you 320 00:16:16,920 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 2: that there has been only one military service so far 321 00:16:19,920 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 2: that's received a clean audit opinion, and that is the 322 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:25,000 Speaker 2: Marine Corps. And they've done it for two consecutive years. 323 00:16:25,400 --> 00:16:27,560 Speaker 2: And when I was there, I made the Marine Corps 324 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 2: a priority because I wanted to prove that it was possible. 325 00:16:31,040 --> 00:16:34,200 Speaker 2: And if you take a smaller service where sort of 326 00:16:34,200 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 2: the command and control is a little tighter, and if 327 00:16:37,640 --> 00:16:39,920 Speaker 2: you can get the commandant and the senior generals in 328 00:16:40,000 --> 00:16:41,880 Speaker 2: the Marine Corps a buy off on it and push 329 00:16:41,960 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 2: the organization to do it, it's totally possible to do this. 330 00:16:45,720 --> 00:16:49,440 Speaker 2: The problem is that the way that the financial systems 331 00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 2: that were created in the various departments, they sort of 332 00:16:52,600 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 2: grew organically they didn't grow out of a big plan, 333 00:16:55,520 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 2: and so there are so many various interfaces to these 334 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:04,040 Speaker 2: financial systems and supply chain systems that they end up breaking. 335 00:17:04,320 --> 00:17:06,639 Speaker 2: And so I give the example in the book. We 336 00:17:06,680 --> 00:17:10,440 Speaker 2: started to focus primarily on inventory just to show like, guess, 337 00:17:10,440 --> 00:17:12,080 Speaker 2: we do know what we have and we know where 338 00:17:12,080 --> 00:17:14,720 Speaker 2: it is. And in that process we found a warehouse 339 00:17:14,920 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 2: down in Florida. They had like two hundred and fifty 340 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:20,440 Speaker 2: million dollars worth of aircraft parts in it. Before that, 341 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:22,639 Speaker 2: we didn't know we had owned the warehouse. We didn't 342 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:24,560 Speaker 2: know we had owned the parts that were in the warehouse, 343 00:17:24,600 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 2: and we had aircraft that were down because they were 344 00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:30,560 Speaker 2: looking for parts that were in this warehouse that we 345 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 2: didn't even know we owned. And this is what happens 346 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 2: in an organization that's that big, where the access to 347 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 2: capital is not restricted because you can't audit it. Every 348 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,160 Speaker 2: other business in the world, public company, private company, if 349 00:17:44,160 --> 00:17:46,760 Speaker 2: you can't have audible financial statements, you don't get access 350 00:17:46,760 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 2: to capital. In the Department of the Navy, they don't 351 00:17:50,000 --> 00:17:53,359 Speaker 2: get a financial opinion, whether it's a clean opinion or 352 00:17:53,400 --> 00:17:55,600 Speaker 2: an unclean opinion, they don't get one. But it doesn't 353 00:17:55,640 --> 00:17:57,800 Speaker 2: impact the amount of money that's coming to Congress for 354 00:17:57,840 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 2: them by a cent. It's all the same. So I 355 00:18:01,280 --> 00:18:03,800 Speaker 2: don't know that I advocate for turning off the spickett, 356 00:18:03,880 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 2: but I think the organization knows that, and if you 357 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,760 Speaker 2: know that, then they don't prioritize it. And so we 358 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:12,120 Speaker 2: go up every year, we get beat up by Congress. 359 00:18:12,200 --> 00:18:13,760 Speaker 2: We're not being able to do it, and then we 360 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,720 Speaker 2: spend a lot of money on it. But it's very, 361 00:18:15,800 --> 00:18:18,800 Speaker 2: very difficult to do it unless it's made an absolute 362 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,280 Speaker 2: priority by everybody. Chief and Naval Operation Secretary of the Navy. 363 00:18:23,720 --> 00:18:25,240 Speaker 2: Because I had been there before and I knew this. 364 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:27,880 Speaker 2: When I became under secretary, I looked at the Audit 365 00:18:27,920 --> 00:18:30,520 Speaker 2: committee and it was being chaired by the comptroller, and 366 00:18:30,600 --> 00:18:32,600 Speaker 2: I said, not anymore. It's going to be chaired by 367 00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 2: me because I own more of the enterprise than the 368 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 2: comptroller does, and every part of the organization needs to 369 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:41,920 Speaker 2: be there. And it's not just the pragmatics of that, 370 00:18:41,960 --> 00:18:45,199 Speaker 2: it's the symbolism of that, the fact that the Undersecretary 371 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 2: is taking ownership over that. And over that few years 372 00:18:48,920 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 2: we made decent progress on the financial audit. But it's 373 00:18:52,359 --> 00:19:12,160 Speaker 2: a very very difficult problem. 374 00:19:12,520 --> 00:19:15,320 Speaker 1: One of the things you did to try to get 375 00:19:15,359 --> 00:19:19,440 Speaker 1: the machine moving is every Friday you wrote a personal 376 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:22,560 Speaker 1: message to the entire department, regardless of rank, which were 377 00:19:22,560 --> 00:19:26,520 Speaker 1: called sec MAAV vectors. What was a second MAV vector? 378 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:28,640 Speaker 1: What were you trying to accomplish? 379 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,080 Speaker 2: My boss, Secretary Spencer, was basically fired by a Secretary 380 00:19:32,200 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 2: Esper in the wake of this Pettiopster Gallagher seal trial, 381 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:38,440 Speaker 2: which I won't go into detail, but you can read 382 00:19:38,440 --> 00:19:41,280 Speaker 2: about it in my book. I had no expectation at 383 00:19:41,320 --> 00:19:43,480 Speaker 2: all that this is going to happen. And the next 384 00:19:43,480 --> 00:19:46,080 Speaker 2: thing I know, on the acting secretary and I got 385 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:48,399 Speaker 2: a phone call from somebody, a guy named Jerry Hendrix, 386 00:19:48,440 --> 00:19:50,880 Speaker 2: who you may know, who writes a lot about naval matters, 387 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 2: and he said, Tom, the average tenure of an acting 388 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 2: Secretary of the Navy is one hundred and ten days. 389 00:19:55,840 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 2: So I said, okay, Well, so I went home and 390 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,919 Speaker 2: I came up with eleven top ten lists that I 391 00:20:00,960 --> 00:20:02,520 Speaker 2: was going to try and accomplish in one hundred and 392 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,240 Speaker 2: ten days. And one of those things was I wanted 393 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,760 Speaker 2: to be able to communicate with the entire organization on 394 00:20:08,800 --> 00:20:12,080 Speaker 2: a regular basis, And so I told my team. I said, 395 00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:14,679 Speaker 2: every Friday, I'm sending out this thing called the vector, 396 00:20:14,960 --> 00:20:16,720 Speaker 2: and I'm like, well, sir, you know, we're not sure 397 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,359 Speaker 2: the IT systems can handle that. I said, well, you 398 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:22,159 Speaker 2: guys figure out how the IT systems can handle that, 399 00:20:22,200 --> 00:20:24,200 Speaker 2: because I'm going to be writing this thing. They said, well, 400 00:20:24,320 --> 00:20:26,320 Speaker 2: it's got to be ready by Wednesday. I said, okay, 401 00:20:26,760 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 2: and that just put the pressure on me, but I 402 00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:30,800 Speaker 2: didn't really care because I really wanted to get that out, 403 00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:33,359 Speaker 2: so I would write them by Wednesday. But the idea 404 00:20:33,400 --> 00:20:36,480 Speaker 2: of the vector was really to communicate to the entire 405 00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:41,720 Speaker 2: organization what me as the senior leader, albeit temporarily, was 406 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 2: thinking about what I thought their priority should be, and 407 00:20:45,040 --> 00:20:46,800 Speaker 2: they would be a mix of different things. It would 408 00:20:46,840 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 2: be priority based, or be talking about things that happened 409 00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 2: that week that they should be aware of, or funny 410 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 2: stories about movies, or that I would relate to what 411 00:20:57,840 --> 00:21:00,480 Speaker 2: they're dealing with with their lives. Had a lot more 412 00:21:00,520 --> 00:21:03,920 Speaker 2: interesting obviously when COVID started happening, and I started using 413 00:21:03,960 --> 00:21:07,199 Speaker 2: more anecdotal stories about how this was their time to 414 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:10,159 Speaker 2: demonstrate how they're going to respond in a crisis, and 415 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:12,600 Speaker 2: no one expected that this crisis was going to be COVID, 416 00:21:12,640 --> 00:21:14,720 Speaker 2: but here it is, and so I would write a 417 00:21:14,720 --> 00:21:15,320 Speaker 2: lot about that. 418 00:21:15,880 --> 00:21:18,560 Speaker 1: I'm curious, So, when you look at your experiences, which 419 00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 1: have been pretty wide ranging, how would you summarize the 420 00:21:22,600 --> 00:21:24,760 Speaker 1: lessons you've learned about effective leadership? 421 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,720 Speaker 2: Well, I think that for me, the thing I learned 422 00:21:28,720 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 2: the most over the course of my career, and I've 423 00:21:30,600 --> 00:21:34,520 Speaker 2: been in private sector and military government, is that the 424 00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,800 Speaker 2: leaders that communicate the most are to me the most effective. 425 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:41,199 Speaker 2: And you have to be consistent, and you have to 426 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 2: be honest, and you have to be transparent with people, 427 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,680 Speaker 2: and that includes, you know, taking the mask off. I'd 428 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:50,560 Speaker 2: use that as an analogy of, you know, take off 429 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 2: the mask of your rank and everything else and just 430 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:55,359 Speaker 2: get to know people in the organization. There was a 431 00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:59,359 Speaker 2: very common sort of consultant speak about leaning in that 432 00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:01,919 Speaker 2: we've heard a largely had to do with women in 433 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 2: the workforce, and I sort of turned that differently in 434 00:22:04,680 --> 00:22:07,480 Speaker 2: terms of my approach to that, which is leaning down, 435 00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 2: leaned down into the organization, get to know the people 436 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 2: at the most lowest levels of the organization, make them 437 00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 2: understand that you're accessible and that you're listening to them. 438 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 2: To me, that's probably the most important thing. I think 439 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 2: from a government perspective, I use this phrase acting and 440 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:24,840 Speaker 2: not pretending, and that meant that I wasn't pretending to 441 00:22:24,840 --> 00:22:26,679 Speaker 2: do this job. This is a job I'm in, this 442 00:22:26,720 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 2: is a seat I'm in, and so I'm going to 443 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:30,240 Speaker 2: do something here. And I think a lot of people, 444 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:34,040 Speaker 2: for whatever reason, they go into government to be somebody 445 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,160 Speaker 2: and not to do something. I'm not trying to cast dispersions, 446 00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:39,399 Speaker 2: but you know, they're looking for their next job, or 447 00:22:39,440 --> 00:22:42,240 Speaker 2: they're looking to see how this is going to impact them. 448 00:22:42,840 --> 00:22:45,040 Speaker 2: And when you're in public service, I think it's completely 449 00:22:45,119 --> 00:22:48,440 Speaker 2: the opposite. You're there to serve people, to serve the nation, 450 00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:51,800 Speaker 2: and what happens to you is almost doesn't matter. And 451 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:53,960 Speaker 2: my view is always you know, I'm the last person 452 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,399 Speaker 2: on my priority list. When I came to work in 453 00:22:56,400 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 2: that job, I thought about the Navy, I thought about 454 00:22:58,720 --> 00:23:01,600 Speaker 2: the people in the Navy, about the country, and so 455 00:23:01,920 --> 00:23:03,520 Speaker 2: to me, I think that's the only way I can 456 00:23:03,560 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 2: do it. So maybe other people have different approaches, but 457 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,879 Speaker 2: to me, that was probably the biggest lessons I learned. 458 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:12,080 Speaker 1: You clearly have thought a lot about this, and you've 459 00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: been deeply involved in defending the nation virstus of your 460 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 1: whole lifetime. When you look ahead, what do you think 461 00:23:19,480 --> 00:23:23,280 Speaker 1: are the biggest challenges the Navy and the Marine Corps 462 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,600 Speaker 1: face in the next thirty to fifty years. 463 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:29,280 Speaker 2: Well, I think it's all really the same things that 464 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:32,520 Speaker 2: I talked about in twenty seventeen. But it also relates 465 00:23:32,560 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 2: to this issue of lack of strategy. I think we 466 00:23:35,560 --> 00:23:38,080 Speaker 2: need to have a much better defined strategy of what 467 00:23:38,119 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 2: we want our naval forces to accomplish because the challenges 468 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:46,439 Speaker 2: they're facing are much more diverse and unpredictable. That's one 469 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 2: of the reasons why I tried to push this concept 470 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,000 Speaker 2: of agility. You know, what does it mean to be 471 00:23:50,040 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 2: an agile organization? What does it mean to be an 472 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:55,119 Speaker 2: agile person? Because I'm listening to a hot of podcasts 473 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,359 Speaker 2: now about the Navy and the challenges the Navy's facing, 474 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,840 Speaker 2: and basically everything they're talking about is China, and I 475 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:04,640 Speaker 2: agree that is a big challenge that we need to address. 476 00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:07,480 Speaker 2: But I suspect that the next big conflict we have 477 00:24:07,600 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 2: is not going to be China. It's going to be 478 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 2: something that we don't expect right now. And so that's 479 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:14,400 Speaker 2: why I believe we have to build forces that are 480 00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 2: agile and flexible to respond to a variety of different things, 481 00:24:18,119 --> 00:24:21,720 Speaker 2: and that means changing everything about how we do things. 482 00:24:21,920 --> 00:24:24,840 Speaker 2: I used to talk about how business development life cycles, 483 00:24:24,880 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 2: product development life cycles. In the private sector, for the 484 00:24:27,920 --> 00:24:30,920 Speaker 2: last twenty thirty years, they've been contracting. They've just been 485 00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,719 Speaker 2: contracting and contracting. But if you look at government, if 486 00:24:33,760 --> 00:24:36,919 Speaker 2: you look at the Navy particularly, they've been expanding and 487 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,199 Speaker 2: expanding and expanding. That's a recipe for disaster. It's just 488 00:24:40,280 --> 00:24:43,879 Speaker 2: impossible to succeed in an environment like that. So the 489 00:24:43,920 --> 00:24:46,959 Speaker 2: biggest challenges I think that we're seeing is as these 490 00:24:47,040 --> 00:24:49,800 Speaker 2: multiple challenges come at us, our lack of ability to 491 00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 2: respond to them quickly. And so to me, that's impacting 492 00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 2: the Navy, it's impacting all the other forces as well. 493 00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,359 Speaker 2: There is this paradigm in the Pentagon where all the 494 00:24:58,400 --> 00:25:00,879 Speaker 2: different services get their fair share of the pie. They 495 00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:02,639 Speaker 2: all get their cut of the pie. I don't know 496 00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,480 Speaker 2: if that makes any sense. Why does it necessarily make 497 00:25:05,520 --> 00:25:08,520 Speaker 2: sense anymore? You're measuring this on dollars and not on 498 00:25:08,640 --> 00:25:11,320 Speaker 2: sort of what capabilities we need. From my view, and 499 00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:14,679 Speaker 2: clearly it's a biased view. I think space and maritime, 500 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:17,000 Speaker 2: both under sea and on the water, are where we 501 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,320 Speaker 2: should be throwing our money, in addition to things like 502 00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 2: AI and autonomous vehicles. But all that autonomy, I think 503 00:25:23,640 --> 00:25:26,359 Speaker 2: is going to operate in those domains. That means somebody's 504 00:25:26,400 --> 00:25:28,440 Speaker 2: going to have to take a hit. I'm not sure 505 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:30,640 Speaker 2: that the way the systems are set up, the structures 506 00:25:30,640 --> 00:25:32,880 Speaker 2: are set up, the committees are set up, that they're 507 00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 2: ready to make a big shift like that. So I 508 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:36,280 Speaker 2: have a lot of concerns. 509 00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:38,679 Speaker 1: How much of that hit should be made by the 510 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,360 Speaker 1: sheer bureaucracy. They built the Pentagon in nineteen forty three, 511 00:25:42,960 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 1: so the twenty six thousand people could manage World War 512 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,800 Speaker 1: two using manual typewriters, the carbon paper and filing cabinets. 513 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:56,320 Speaker 1: We now have smartphones, iPads, computers and twenty six thousand people. 514 00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 1: It can't make sense. 515 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 2: This is the type of thing I'm talking at. One 516 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:03,760 Speaker 2: of those slices of the pie is that Pentagon bureaucracy. 517 00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 2: And it's sacrisanc to the people in the Pentagon bureocracy, 518 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 2: and they'll fight for every dollar. We don't go into 519 00:26:09,240 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 2: our budget processes saying what did I do last year 520 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 2: that I really don't need to do anymore. It's like, 521 00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 2: what did I do last year that I can keep doing? 522 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 2: And what more can I do so I can get 523 00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:20,720 Speaker 2: more money to do it. So this is sort of 524 00:26:20,720 --> 00:26:21,920 Speaker 2: at the crux of the problem. 525 00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:25,440 Speaker 1: Having come out of the Naval Academy with your perspective 526 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: of your experience, if you could give one piece of 527 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 1: advice to this year's graduating class, what would you say 528 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:34,120 Speaker 1: to them? 529 00:26:34,600 --> 00:26:38,560 Speaker 2: Oh, well, I had the great fortune of being able 530 00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 2: to speak at the Naval Academy graduation with President Trump 531 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:45,879 Speaker 2: on the thirty fifth anniversary of my own graduation, and 532 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 2: I don't think that my message would be any different 533 00:26:48,480 --> 00:26:52,640 Speaker 2: now than it was then, which was basically for them 534 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:56,800 Speaker 2: to really not worry about loving the people that they 535 00:26:56,840 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 2: work for, but to focus their love on the Constitute, 536 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:02,800 Speaker 2: the thing that they have pledged their lives, and to 537 00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,199 Speaker 2: understand what that constitution is and what it means, and 538 00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:09,080 Speaker 2: the country itself and the people that work for them. 539 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,879 Speaker 2: If you spend your time focusing on them and ensuring 540 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 2: that they have everything that they need and that they 541 00:27:15,040 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 2: can do their mission, then all that other stuff, promotion, 542 00:27:18,240 --> 00:27:20,919 Speaker 2: all that other stuff, it takes care of itself. But 543 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,199 Speaker 2: at the end of the day, You're going to be 544 00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:25,639 Speaker 2: just more effective as a leader, and your organization is 545 00:27:25,640 --> 00:27:27,560 Speaker 2: going to be more effective as a war fighting mission. 546 00:27:28,040 --> 00:27:31,920 Speaker 1: That's terrific. I want to thank you for joining me here. 547 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:36,399 Speaker 1: Book Vectors, Heroes, Villains and Heartbreak on the Bridge of 548 00:27:36,400 --> 00:27:38,960 Speaker 1: the US Navy is available now on Amazon and in 549 00:27:39,000 --> 00:27:43,920 Speaker 1: bookstarts everywhere. You clearly have a very dedicated, patriotic life, 550 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:46,640 Speaker 1: and I appreciate time you're sharing it with us. 551 00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:49,000 Speaker 2: Thank you so much, mister speaker. I appreciate it. 552 00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:54,560 Speaker 1: Thank you. To my guest Thomas Moudley. You can get 553 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:58,080 Speaker 1: a link to buy his book, Vectors, Heroes, Villains and 554 00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: Heartbreak on the Bridge of the US Navy on our 555 00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,919 Speaker 1: show page at newsworld dot com. Newsworld is produced by 556 00:28:03,920 --> 00:28:08,360 Speaker 1: Ginglish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer is Guarnsey 557 00:28:08,400 --> 00:28:12,679 Speaker 1: Sloan and our researcher is Rachel Peterson. The artwork for 558 00:28:12,720 --> 00:28:16,320 Speaker 1: the show was created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to 559 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:19,560 Speaker 1: the team at ginguishtree sixty. If you've been enjoying Newsworld, 560 00:28:19,840 --> 00:28:22,320 Speaker 1: I hope you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate 561 00:28:22,400 --> 00:28:25,159 Speaker 1: us with five stars and give us a review so 562 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:28,600 Speaker 1: others can learn what it's all about. Right now, Listeners 563 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:32,240 Speaker 1: of Newsworld can sign up for my three freeweekly columns 564 00:28:32,400 --> 00:28:36,440 Speaker 1: at ginglishtree sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm Newt Gingrich. 565 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:37,639 Speaker 1: This is Newsworld