WEBVTT - #228 Jason Flom with Carlton Roman 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.800 In nineteen eighty nine, Paul Anderson lived in a Jamaica 0:00:05.880 --> 0:00:08.640 queen's drug house owned by his sister but operated by 0:00:08.680 --> 0:00:13.080 a man named Jomo Kenyada. On March sixteenth, nineteen eighty nine, 0:00:13.240 --> 0:00:16.160 Jomo Kenyada and one of his associates, Lloyd Witter, were 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:19.239 shot at the house, leaving wid Or dead and Kenyada 0:00:19.239 --> 0:00:24.360 in a coma. Police found Paul Anderson alone, bound, handcuffed, 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:28.680 and unharmed outside the home, under pressure from Lee Detective 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:32.600 William Peppe and desperately trying to divert attention away from himself. 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:37.120 Anderson's initial description of four unknown men quickly changed to 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:40.560 that of two acquaintances who did not fit his initial descriptions, 0:00:41.080 --> 0:00:45.839 Carlton Roman and Hollis Laylor. With no physical or forensic 0:00:45.840 --> 0:00:49.159 evidence tying Carlton or Hollis to the shooting, the state's 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:53.360 case relied solely on the inconsistent and outright false testimonies 0:00:53.360 --> 0:00:58.320 of Anderson, Kenyada, and Detective Peppe. Carlton, a twenty six 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:01.280 year old bother at college due with no connection to 0:01:01.320 --> 0:01:04.200 the drug trade, was portrayed by the prosecution as a 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:08.520 dangerous drug kingpin, and despite the testimony of alibi witnesses, 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:13.080 Carlton was convicted and sentenced over forty three years in prison. 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:17.360 The Queen Za blocked Carlton's attempts at justice for over 0:01:17.560 --> 0:01:21.760 three decades until the election of District Attorney of Olympic 0:01:21.840 --> 0:01:25.039 Cats and the formation of a new conviction Integrity Unit. 0:01:25.480 --> 0:01:30.120 A reinvestigation revealed the misdeeds of Paul Anderson, Joe Mukanyata, 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:34.120 and Detective Peppe, as well as led to Carlton's freedom 0:01:34.280 --> 0:01:39.240 after thirty two long years in prison. This is Wronful Conviction. 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:59.280 Welcome back to Wronful Conviction. I'm your host, Jason Flahman. 0:01:59.360 --> 0:02:03.000 I'm going to start today's episode by issuing an apology 0:02:03.160 --> 0:02:05.680 and I'm going to direct that at our featured guest, 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:08.679 Carlton Roman, because what he went through doesn't make any 0:02:08.720 --> 0:02:11.680 logical sense whatsoever, even by our crazy standards. And so, 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:14.440 mister Roman, thank you for being here. And then with 0:02:14.680 --> 0:02:18.640 mister Roman today is his attorney, James Henning. James, welcome 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:19.560 to the show. 0:02:19.880 --> 0:02:21.880 Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having us. Jason. 0:02:22.200 --> 0:02:23.959 Yeah, and I'm glad you're here as well to help 0:02:24.000 --> 0:02:27.080 tell this crazy story because honestly, when I was researching this. 0:02:27.200 --> 0:02:30.360 I was kind of just like turning the paper upside down, 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:33.840 back and forth and saying, maybe somebody left something out, 0:02:34.120 --> 0:02:38.160 Maybe there's a mistake or an omission here somewhere. I mean, Carlton, 0:02:38.200 --> 0:02:40.160 you were a twenty six year old man who was 0:02:40.200 --> 0:02:43.280 a father boyfriend, going to college, living in Queens, New York, 0:02:43.360 --> 0:02:46.480 no criminal record whatsoever. So if a guy like you 0:02:46.520 --> 0:02:48.600 can get caught up in something like this, then the 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:52.360 uncomfortable fact is that nobody's safe. Right, So let's go 0:02:52.480 --> 0:02:55.000 back to that. First of all, where are you from? 0:02:55.160 --> 0:02:57.880 But I'm Jamaican. I was born Derek into this country 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:00.720 in nineteen eighty one. I was nineteen, and my mother 0:03:01.000 --> 0:03:04.320 migrated before me, and she worked two tree four jobs 0:03:04.320 --> 0:03:07.480 sometimes until she was able to sponsor me and get 0:03:07.480 --> 0:03:09.240 me up here. The one point of me coming here 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:11.200 was educational purposes. 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:12.160 To go to college. 0:03:12.280 --> 0:03:15.320 We started going around trying to get me into a college, 0:03:15.360 --> 0:03:18.000 and she kept bringing me to different colleges and I'd 0:03:18.000 --> 0:03:20.120 be looking at the hamphuses. I have no frame of 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:23.120 reference to what to go by. I mean, it's completely different. 0:03:23.200 --> 0:03:25.880 It's a first world country and all that. We started 0:03:25.880 --> 0:03:28.560 looking at colleges in Queens, and I fell in love 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:30.840 with Queensboro, which was a community of college. 0:03:31.000 --> 0:03:32.160 That's what I settled on. 0:03:32.360 --> 0:03:35.040 So my mom and her husband started looking at place 0:03:35.080 --> 0:03:37.840 in Queens and then we moved there within like maybe 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:39.760 ten months of me coming up here. 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:43.080 So it seems like everything was going pretty well until, 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:46.119 of course, one day in nineteen eighty nine, and that's 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:49.080 when it all went terribly wrong. Now, this was the 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:52.240 late eighties in New York, a time that was rife 0:03:52.240 --> 0:03:56.200 with both drug dealing and police corruption that stretched through 0:03:56.240 --> 0:03:59.320 the nineties. And I'm not breaking any news here, right. 0:03:59.360 --> 0:04:02.240 It was the epidemic, the War on drugs. A lot 0:04:02.280 --> 0:04:04.600 of bad shit happened on both sides of the law. 0:04:04.680 --> 0:04:07.000 And in Jamaica, Queen's there was a house known for 0:04:07.080 --> 0:04:10.400 drug activity and a guy Carlton knew Paul Anderson lived there. 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:14.400 It was his sister's house, and a guy named Jomo Kenyada, 0:04:14.880 --> 0:04:17.360 who we later find out was a very violent guy 0:04:17.440 --> 0:04:20.640 operating under a number of aliases, who was dealing drugs 0:04:20.680 --> 0:04:23.400 out of that house. There was also a dude that 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:27.280 Carlton knew, Lloyd Witter or Jimbo as people call them, 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:29.520 who hung around with those guys and may or may 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:32.599 not have been involved in drugs as well. Now, on 0:04:32.720 --> 0:04:35.919 March sixteenth, nineteen eighty nine, a shooting happened at this 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:40.320 drug house, killing Lloyd Witter and putting Jomo Kenyada into 0:04:40.360 --> 0:04:44.159 a coma that lasted for weeks. And when police first 0:04:44.240 --> 0:04:48.320 arrived at the crime scene, they found Paul Anderson outside 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:53.039 bound and handcuffed, but somehow unharmed. James tell us where 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:54.560 the investigation went from there. 0:04:54.960 --> 0:04:58.520 Lloyd Witter is obviously killed and can't give an account 0:04:58.520 --> 0:05:01.800 of the crime. Jomo Kenya is in a coma for 0:05:01.839 --> 0:05:05.800 several weeks following the crime, and so the initial stories 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:10.320 come from Paul Anderson, and he gives several Initially, he 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:13.679 claims that a group of individuals came to his house, 0:05:13.960 --> 0:05:17.239 unknown individuals that he describes in detail, and they force 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:19.920 him inside at gunpoint, and they handcuff him and tie 0:05:20.000 --> 0:05:23.640 him up, and they tell him that they're after Jomo 0:05:23.720 --> 0:05:28.080 Kanyada and Lloyd Witter, and then they do nothing to 0:05:28.200 --> 0:05:30.760 him when they go and shoot Jomo Kanyada and Lloyd 0:05:30.800 --> 0:05:33.919 Witter when they show up. It isn't until the next 0:05:34.000 --> 0:05:38.120 day that Carlton is purportedly identified by Paul Anderson as 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:41.000 one of the individuals along with another guy he knew 0:05:41.120 --> 0:05:45.479 Hollis Laylor from among the shooters. And this is the 0:05:45.480 --> 0:05:47.520 same day that Carlton learns of the shooting of his 0:05:47.800 --> 0:05:50.839 very good friend Lloyd Witter and calls up Witter's wife 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:52.279 and says is this true? 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:54.960 And she says, yes, it's true. 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:56.840 And Carlton, being a good friend, runs over to his 0:05:56.839 --> 0:05:58.640 friend's house to check what's going. 0:05:58.480 --> 0:06:01.280 On, and it was found out that the victim's wife, 0:06:01.360 --> 0:06:04.240 Andrea Witer, was told by someone we don't know who 0:06:04.480 --> 0:06:08.080 that Carlton was responsible for her husband's death. We know 0:06:08.240 --> 0:06:11.360 she was contacted on her husband's beeper after the shooting 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:15.679 took place. It may have been Paul Anderson perhaps Detective Peppe, 0:06:15.839 --> 0:06:19.400 were not exactly sure, so when Carlton got to her house, 0:06:19.680 --> 0:06:20.719 she called the police. 0:06:20.920 --> 0:06:22.920 When he shows up, nobody answers the door at the 0:06:22.920 --> 0:06:25.520 Witer home and he goes across the street to a 0:06:25.520 --> 0:06:28.560 payphone to call up the house and see what's going on. 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:32.080 And as he's calling, a number of unmarked carrs show 0:06:32.160 --> 0:06:35.360 up and missus Whitter crosses the street, points at Carlton 0:06:35.400 --> 0:06:37.920 and says that's the man who killed my husband, and 0:06:38.360 --> 0:06:40.680 things are just off to the races. From there, Carlton 0:06:40.760 --> 0:06:43.560 is identified as being one of the shooters and is 0:06:43.560 --> 0:06:46.920 taken into custody by Detective William Peppe. And this is 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:49.680 the morning of the seventeenth, and it just changes Carlton's. 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:53.880 Life, James, as you're talking about these various different stories 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:57.160 that Anderson told, this is where the whole thing starts 0:06:57.160 --> 0:07:01.520 to become surreal, right because Anderson initially told Detective John 0:07:01.839 --> 0:07:05.159 Loguercio that four men came to his house and that 0:07:05.279 --> 0:07:06.680 he couldn't identify the men. 0:07:07.080 --> 0:07:09.240 And there's no dispute here, Jason, that he knew who 0:07:09.279 --> 0:07:11.240 Carlton was at that point. 0:07:11.040 --> 0:07:14.239 Right, So major red flag right there. But this initial 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:17.560 description given to Detective Leagercio was never even presented to 0:07:17.560 --> 0:07:21.560 the jury and was only discovered recently, and he gave 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:25.760 a detailed description for the police report. According to Paul Anderson, 0:07:25.800 --> 0:07:28.200 he didn't know any of the men, but the apparent 0:07:28.280 --> 0:07:30.240 leader was five to two or five to three and 0:07:30.360 --> 0:07:33.960 walked with a limp. Two other guys no taller than 0:07:34.040 --> 0:07:37.800 five to four, and then the fourth guy was about 0:07:37.840 --> 0:07:40.520 six feet tall with a cameo haircut, which you remember 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:43.760 from the music videos. At that time, this meant tight 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.720 on the sides and tall on top. But then Anderson's 0:07:46.760 --> 0:07:51.240 account and descriptions changed six times before this thing even 0:07:51.320 --> 0:07:54.520 went to trial, and it comes out much later that 0:07:54.560 --> 0:07:57.360 according to Anderson, he was under a great deal of 0:07:57.360 --> 0:08:01.680 pressure from Detective Peppi, who fed various details along the way, 0:08:02.240 --> 0:08:07.720 but before his narrative changed, his description definitely did. When 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:11.960 they get Anderson to the precinct, he allegedly identified Carlton 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:15.920 Roman as the shooter. So somehow he magically remembered that 0:08:16.080 --> 0:08:20.480 his friend was the shooter from these four unknown men 0:08:20.880 --> 0:08:26.280 who he described with some detail, right, an even stranger, Carlton, 0:08:26.480 --> 0:08:29.440 You had no criminal record whatsoever, no involvement with this 0:08:29.520 --> 0:08:32.280 drug house. You didn't match any of the initial descriptions 0:08:32.280 --> 0:08:34.920 of his initial descriptions. He's talking about guys who are 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:37.080 under five to four and then one over six feet, 0:08:37.200 --> 0:08:39.480 but you're five to seven. Help me out here, Do 0:08:39.520 --> 0:08:43.000 you have any other matching characteristics from the initial police report? 0:08:43.520 --> 0:08:44.600 No, absolutely not. 0:08:45.040 --> 0:08:48.600 And if Anderson knew it was you, Carlton, why in 0:08:48.679 --> 0:08:51.120 the world didn't he say so from the very beginning, 0:08:51.240 --> 0:08:53.760 right when the police first showed up after the shooting. 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:55.960 How in the world is he not going to say, Yeah, 0:08:56.000 --> 0:08:57.840 it was my friend that did this, and here's where 0:08:57.880 --> 0:08:59.839 he lives and here's his phone number. That would have 0:08:59.840 --> 0:09:03.200 been the easiest id ever if you were the guy 0:09:03.240 --> 0:09:04.320 who actually did it. 0:09:04.800 --> 0:09:06.680 I think the other thing that flows into that, Jason, 0:09:06.720 --> 0:09:09.160 which has always been a big point to me and 0:09:09.440 --> 0:09:12.439 was a big point to the judge who ultimately exonerated Carlton, 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:15.160 is I kind of referred to it as like a 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:18.480 Batman or James Bond scenario where Paul Anderson says that 0:09:18.480 --> 0:09:21.760 these guys came in told him their entire criminal plot, 0:09:22.080 --> 0:09:24.560 shot two other guys to pieces that they told him 0:09:24.559 --> 0:09:27.200 they were going to shoot, and then leave him completely 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:29.600 unscathed and able to tell this story. 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:31.720 Nobody questioned that from the beginning. 0:09:32.200 --> 0:09:34.240 Yeah, I was wondering about that too. And then it 0:09:34.240 --> 0:09:37.400 gets weirder, right because with Kenyata drifting in and out 0:09:37.400 --> 0:09:40.680 of consciousness for several weeks at the hospital, they went 0:09:40.760 --> 0:09:44.160 in and did some really crazy stuff in the hospital 0:09:44.200 --> 0:09:47.439 in order to get him to make an identification. Right, 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:48.440 how did that work? 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:48.880 So? 0:09:49.000 --> 0:09:54.119 According to Detective Pepe, the lead investigator, when Kenyata awakens 0:09:54.160 --> 0:09:56.920 from this coma, he goes to visit with him, and 0:09:57.000 --> 0:10:01.120 he displays a board with letters it because Kenyata is 0:10:01.120 --> 0:10:06.240 supposedly nonverbal, and he has Kenyada supposedly spell out the 0:10:06.360 --> 0:10:08.680 names of the people who shot him, and according to Pepe, 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:14.320 he identifies Carlton, Hollis Laylor by their nicknames, and the 0:10:14.360 --> 0:10:17.760 other two people who by this point, Paul Anderson has 0:10:18.000 --> 0:10:22.199 identified a pair of brothers named Bigger and Richie. Now, 0:10:22.320 --> 0:10:24.840 there are a couple problems with this. Number One, there's 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:28.679 no basis in any police procedure for going and showing 0:10:28.679 --> 0:10:33.240 a nonverbal witness a letter board to identify people. Number two, 0:10:33.280 --> 0:10:37.400 there's no indication that Kenyada is separated from Paul Anderson 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:40.320 or other people who could have influenced an identification. There's 0:10:40.360 --> 0:10:43.800 no indication that another officer is present or involved in 0:10:43.880 --> 0:10:48.400 this procedure. And number three, when Kenyada ultimately testifies at 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:51.559 Carlton's trial, he says, I didn't spell out these guys' names. 0:10:51.600 --> 0:10:54.200 I gave three letters. So he's only claiming to have 0:10:54.240 --> 0:10:58.240 identified three people during this procedure, and they don't correspond 0:10:58.320 --> 0:11:01.800 to the claims that Pepe made of this. When Carlton's 0:11:01.800 --> 0:11:06.920 attorney makes a motion to see what procedures produced identifications 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:11.520 in this case, the prosecution essentially hides Kenyata's ID. They 0:11:11.559 --> 0:11:14.480 represent that only Paul Anderson has made an idea, and 0:11:14.520 --> 0:11:18.160 because he knows Carlton, there's nothing suggestive in any way, 0:11:18.160 --> 0:11:21.280 shape or form. But Carlton's trial attorney's actually saying somebody 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:24.280 in Kenyata's condition could have easily been led to make 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:27.920 a misidentification. And the people's response, which is relied upon 0:11:28.480 --> 0:11:31.160 by a court, is that no, there's no problem because 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:34.280 the only witness to make an ID knew the defendant. 0:11:34.400 --> 0:11:37.960 So they kind of push forward without any review. These 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:41.400 two IDs by these guys who were years later acknowledged 0:11:41.400 --> 0:11:43.400 to be completely incredible and all over the place. 0:11:44.160 --> 0:11:46.880 Yeah, and if I'm hearing you correctly, there was only 0:11:46.960 --> 0:11:49.360 the two of them in the hospital room at the time. Anyway, Right, 0:11:49.679 --> 0:11:52.560 he could have said he identified, you know, Santa Claus 0:11:52.800 --> 0:11:56.040 or Helen Keller as the shooter, right, anybody, because it 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:57.200 was just his word. 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:00.559 And there's an interesting aspect there where he aims that 0:12:01.000 --> 0:12:04.800 Kenyada spelled out the name of Hollis Laylor's girlfriend which 0:12:04.920 --> 0:12:07.400 he doesn't explain why Kenyada would have found that to 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:10.800 be at all relevant. And the first three letters of 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.600 that name just happened to be the same as Carlton's nickname. 0:12:13.840 --> 0:12:16.400 So it kind of stinks all around here. 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:19.040 This is how you sort of rash they were back 0:12:19.080 --> 0:12:21.439 in those days. Right, They didn't even bother to attempt 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:25.079 to pretend to make this sound credible because they knew 0:12:25.080 --> 0:12:28.120 they'd get away with it anyway. Right. Was there any 0:12:28.360 --> 0:12:33.640 other evidence, physical, forensic, or anything tying you to the shooting? 0:12:34.360 --> 0:12:35.760 Absolutely nothing. 0:12:35.880 --> 0:12:38.680 During trial they said they'scovered the entire house from top 0:12:38.720 --> 0:12:41.680 to bottom, and they found no fingerprints that. 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:46.680 Were usable, no gun, no confession, no physical or biological evidence. 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:50.080 It really just comes down to the word of Jomo 0:12:50.160 --> 0:12:52.160 Kenyada and Paul Anderson. 0:12:52.679 --> 0:12:56.200 And then how long were you held before the trial? 0:12:56.880 --> 0:12:59.600 The trial took eighteen months before it got there. I 0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:02.599 was in I did and you know, March Ju the system, 0:13:02.840 --> 0:13:06.400 a female associate of mister Greenberg. She came to represent me. 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:08.439 She came back, I'm such and such and you're go 0:13:08.480 --> 0:13:10.040 in front of a judge, this is what's going to happen. 0:13:10.600 --> 0:13:12.880 And I remember selling this woman like what do you 0:13:13.120 --> 0:13:15.480 mean I'm not going to be able to go home today? 0:13:15.920 --> 0:13:18.160 And she's like, no, this is such a I'm like, listen, 0:13:18.320 --> 0:13:20.600 I'm a working man, I have college, I have a 0:13:20.600 --> 0:13:22.439 girlfriend and the child home, and I'm going And she 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:25.000 started writing all this stuff down, and when we went 0:13:25.040 --> 0:13:27.400 in front of a judge, she hammered him exactly with 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:29.480 all the information I'd just given her a minute ago. 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:32.880 And the judge granted me bail. Okay, bail said that 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:36.160 one hundred thousand dollars. Bankers gabble and left and she 0:13:36.400 --> 0:13:38.760 was like, amazing, the judge gave you bail, and you 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.040 know you have a great record. All that, my family 0:13:41.080 --> 0:13:43.680 ran around, they put the house up, and I was 0:13:43.720 --> 0:13:46.360 bailed out and I remained at liberty, going back and 0:13:46.400 --> 0:13:51.439 forth to court for another sixteen seventeen months until certain 0:13:51.520 --> 0:13:53.200 changes were made in my case. It was a new 0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:57.360 judge and suddenly a new DA When Miss Lemucia came 0:13:57.360 --> 0:14:00.520 on the case, everything changed. I think on a second 0:14:00.600 --> 0:14:02.839 or so appearance with her, he acts for my bid 0:14:02.920 --> 0:14:05.720 to be revoked. The new judge did it, and you know, 0:14:06.040 --> 0:14:08.880 my life went completely in the toilet from that point on. 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:22.920 This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company, 0:14:23.000 --> 0:14:26.840 and by Accentsure, a global professional services company with leading 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:30.920 capabilities in digital, cloud and security. Working to reform the 0:14:30.920 --> 0:14:33.400 criminal justice system is a key pillar of the AIG 0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:36.800 pro Bono program, which provides free legal services and other 0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:41.200 support to many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need 0:14:41.480 --> 0:14:44.760 as part of Extensure's commitment to racial and civil justice. 0:14:44.920 --> 0:14:49.000 Accenture's Legal Access Program provides pro bono legal services in 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:53.040 partnership with more than forty organizations, bringing meaningful change to 0:14:53.120 --> 0:15:05.000 people and communities worldwide. And so we moved the trial 0:15:05.320 --> 0:15:07.640 so because of the fact that there was no evidence, 0:15:07.720 --> 0:15:11.560 no actual evidence. The entire case of the state relied 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:14.400 solely on the testimony of Detective Peppy, who we find 0:15:14.440 --> 0:15:18.120 out is totally unreliable. And then, of course the contradictory 0:15:18.160 --> 0:15:22.560 and inconsistent testimonies of two perhaps incentivized, if not at 0:15:22.680 --> 0:15:27.440 least coerced witnesses, Anderson and Kenyata, and they each described 0:15:27.560 --> 0:15:30.280 the shooting and the events leading up to it. So 0:15:30.800 --> 0:15:36.040 Anderson's testimony, he said that Carlton Roman, Hollis Laylor, Jomo Kanyada, 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:38.960 and Lloyd Witter were at Paul Ederson's house on March fifteen, 0:15:39.040 --> 0:15:42.360 nineteen eighty nine, the day before the shooting, a quote 0:15:42.480 --> 0:15:46.440 unquote bus occurred after Jomo Kanyada and Lloyd witter took 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:49.880 a gun from Carlton Roman. Did you ever have a gun? Carlton, 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:51.200 by the way, did you ever own a gun? 0:15:51.640 --> 0:15:53.840 Absolutely not, No, of course not. 0:15:54.040 --> 0:15:58.440 And now back to Anderson's bogus account again, he said 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.360 that day after this alleged bus over a gun that 0:16:01.440 --> 0:16:04.640 you never owned, Jomo Kenyatta and Lloyd Witterer were supposed 0:16:04.640 --> 0:16:07.440 to come over to help him, Paul Anderson, I'm talking 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:11.400 about move. But allegedly before they arrived, Carlton Roman, Hollis 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:15.400 Laylor and these two other made up characters Bigger at 0:16:15.520 --> 0:16:18.760 Richie came by handcuffed Anderson and put him in the basement. 0:16:19.520 --> 0:16:21.920 Several hours later, he heard the doorbell and then a 0:16:21.960 --> 0:16:25.880 series of shots. He also testified that he was an architect. 0:16:26.200 --> 0:16:27.880 I mean, if you're gonna lie, why not just say 0:16:27.920 --> 0:16:31.000 you're a freaking astronaut. He also testified that he was 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:33.600 not involved with drug dealing, and when it was alleged 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:36.120 that he Paul Anderson had been shot by the victim 0:16:36.200 --> 0:16:38.720 Lloyd winner just a few months earlier, in November nineteen 0:16:38.720 --> 0:16:42.240 eighty eight, he denied that he had been shot or 0:16:42.280 --> 0:16:45.320 treated at a hospital for the shooting. He also refused 0:16:45.320 --> 0:16:47.240 to show the leg where it was alleged that he 0:16:47.240 --> 0:16:51.120 had been shot. So he was an architect, had nothing 0:16:51.160 --> 0:16:54.320 to do with drug dealing or any ill will toward 0:16:54.360 --> 0:16:55.440 the victim in this case. 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.840 What we know now is Paul Anderson's residence was a 0:16:58.880 --> 0:17:01.560 drug house. It was used for drugs and gambling. And 0:17:01.600 --> 0:17:05.359 the underlying thing is that the law enforcement actors involved 0:17:05.359 --> 0:17:08.200 in this case had to have known the truth about 0:17:08.200 --> 0:17:10.199 Paul Anderson and what he was doing. So to let 0:17:10.280 --> 0:17:12.000 him get on the stand and say, oh, yeah, I'm 0:17:12.000 --> 0:17:15.720 an architect, I've never been shot, it was just fundamentally unfair. 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:19.439 Now we get to Kenyata's testimony, so he said that 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.560 the initial March fifteenth argument was about drugs and involves 0:17:22.600 --> 0:17:26.760 Carlton Roman, Hollis Laylor, and Lloyd Witter, not a gun 0:17:27.000 --> 0:17:29.960 as Paul Anderson said. According to Kenyatta, he and Lloyd 0:17:29.960 --> 0:17:32.560 went back to Anderson's house on March sixteenth, and when 0:17:32.560 --> 0:17:35.560 they walked into the house, the door shut quickly behind them, 0:17:35.600 --> 0:17:39.159 followed by gunshots, and he allegedly saw Hollis Laylor and 0:17:39.200 --> 0:17:42.960 Carlton Roman shooting Lloyd Witter. When he tried to run away, 0:17:43.040 --> 0:17:47.560 Carlton Roman allegedly shot him on the stairs. On direct examination, 0:17:47.800 --> 0:17:51.119 Kenyada testified that his criminal record consisted of a single 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:54.960 conviction for reckless driving and that he was not involved 0:17:55.000 --> 0:17:58.520 in dealing drugs. He was recalled to the stand after 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:01.720 Carlton's attorneys showed events of him pleading guilty to attempted 0:18:01.760 --> 0:18:04.639 possession of a weapon after being charged with attempted murder. 0:18:04.960 --> 0:18:07.800 So not only does he lie on the stand, but 0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:10.840 the two lying liars who lied don't match up with 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:14.800 each other. Not surprising, and they both just directly lied 0:18:14.840 --> 0:18:18.040 about their own backgrounds and ways that were provably false 0:18:18.280 --> 0:18:21.520 and in this case were in fact proven false. And Carlton, 0:18:21.560 --> 0:18:23.159 I have to ask you before we even get to 0:18:23.200 --> 0:18:26.920 Peppy's testimony. You lived through this, right, I mean, what 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:28.680 were you thinking at that time? 0:18:29.200 --> 0:18:31.840 Well? I was so stupid. I was just so naive. 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:36.320 I still expected Kenyada to come in there and say, no, 0:18:36.640 --> 0:18:37.400 it's not this guy. 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:38.080 He wasn't there. 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:40.119 So I was sitting there listening to this guy talking 0:18:40.160 --> 0:18:43.399 about how I shot him and all this other stuff, 0:18:43.440 --> 0:18:45.440 and I was like, I'm sitting there with my mouth 0:18:45.440 --> 0:18:47.639 hanging out. I remember at one point turning around to 0:18:47.680 --> 0:18:50.400 look at my mom, and my grandmother was there. They 0:18:50.400 --> 0:18:52.320 were also sitting there with their mouths hanging out. I 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:54.560 couldn't believe he was actually saying any of this stuff. 0:18:54.760 --> 0:18:57.199 I'm sitting there like a train hit me listening to 0:18:57.240 --> 0:18:57.719 this stuff. 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:00.520 Yeah, I mean, you must have felt like you just 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:03.160 want to scream out and say, wait a minute, that's 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:04.040 not true, right. 0:19:04.560 --> 0:19:06.960 I wanted to do that, and I made several attempts 0:19:06.960 --> 0:19:08.720 on mister Greenberg. He had a hand on my knee 0:19:08.760 --> 0:19:11.240 under the table and he kept squeezing my knee. Just relaxed, 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:14.200 don't worry, take it easy, don't make a scene. 0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:14.480 In the court. 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:16.000 It's not like I was going to turn the table 0:19:16.040 --> 0:19:18.640 over or anything. But I wanted to really like stand 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:20.639 up and scream at this do like you're lying. You 0:19:20.720 --> 0:19:23.159 understand what I'm saying. And I've always regretted that I 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:24.240 listened to my attorney. 0:19:24.440 --> 0:19:27.479 From what I read in the research, there was very 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:30.880 little defense to speak of. James, Can you talk about 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:33.639 what did this guy do wrong? And what did he 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:36.119 leave out and how did he manage to blow what 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:37.560 should have been an easy win. 0:19:38.040 --> 0:19:40.199 We only have one podcast, so I can't really go 0:19:40.280 --> 0:19:44.240 through everything he did wrong. Carlton's attorney had in alibi 0:19:44.280 --> 0:19:46.800 that Carlton provided to him. He had alibi witnesses that 0:19:46.840 --> 0:19:50.040 supported that Carlton was nowhere near Paul Anderson's house on 0:19:50.080 --> 0:19:53.199 the day of the shootings. Carlton testified in his own defense. 0:19:53.440 --> 0:19:57.160 His testimony was coherent with his alibi witnesses. Mister Greenberg, 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:00.439 the trial attorney, called some of them, but then he 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:04.879 permitted so much of this false insinuation by the prosecution 0:20:05.080 --> 0:20:07.919 that Carlton was a drug dealer. One example of this 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:11.000 is that Carlton had a car that his mother had 0:20:11.119 --> 0:20:14.120 put the down payment on, and all mister Greenberg would 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:17.760 have needed to do is bring in the financing agreement 0:20:17.800 --> 0:20:20.000 for that car, which was a fairly easy thing to 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.960 do to show that this wasn't the product of drug money. 0:20:23.280 --> 0:20:25.640 It was a car that was financed by his mother. 0:20:26.119 --> 0:20:28.800 And instead, because he didn't do that, the prosecutor was 0:20:28.840 --> 0:20:31.840 able to make it seem as if, look, this is 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:34.960 a drug dealer who's buying new cars and living high 0:20:35.000 --> 0:20:38.960 on drug money. But mister Greenberg just didn't rise to 0:20:39.000 --> 0:20:43.200 the occasion in response to these bogus allegations by the prosecution. 0:20:43.640 --> 0:20:46.240 There were so many opportunities where he just showed that 0:20:46.280 --> 0:20:48.240 he had not been engaged in the case. And maybe 0:20:48.280 --> 0:20:51.399 that's because in the time between the shootings and the trial, 0:20:51.640 --> 0:20:53.840 it didn't seem like Paul Anderson was actually going to 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:55.840 come back from Jamaica to testify. He had fled to 0:20:55.880 --> 0:20:58.960 Jamaica after the grand jury, and from what I gather 0:20:59.040 --> 0:21:01.080 from the transcripts, I think think Greenberg thought this was 0:21:01.119 --> 0:21:04.320 going to be dismissed. But you don't not prepare based 0:21:04.320 --> 0:21:07.000 on that. You've still got a client on trial for murder. 0:21:07.280 --> 0:21:08.640 You've got to be ready to defend them. 0:21:09.440 --> 0:21:12.479 And so with the fact that these lies were allowed 0:21:12.520 --> 0:21:16.920 to be foisted on the jury and that your own 0:21:17.000 --> 0:21:20.919 team didn't really do much of anything to help you, 0:21:21.200 --> 0:21:25.600 the results were predictable and ultimately you were convicted of 0:21:25.680 --> 0:21:28.360 second degree murder as well as other counts and sentenced 0:21:28.359 --> 0:21:32.160