Speaker 1: In nine, Paul Anderson lived in a Jamaica queen's drug
Speaker 1: house owned by his sister but operated by a man
Speaker 1: named Jomo Kenyatta. On March sixteenth, nine, Jomo Kenyatta and
Speaker 1: one of his associates, Lloyd Witter, were shot at the house,
Speaker 1: leaving Winter dead and Kenyatta in a coma. Police found
Speaker 1: Paul Anderson alone, bound, handcuffed, and unharmed outside the home,
Speaker 1: under pressure from lead Detective William Peppy and desperately trying
Speaker 1: to divert attention away from himself. Anderson's initial description of
Speaker 1: four unknown men quickly changed to that of two acquaintances
Speaker 1: who did not fit his initial descriptions, Carlton Roman and
Speaker 1: Hollis Laylor. With no physical or forensic evidence tying Carlton
Speaker 1: or Hollis to the shooting, the state's case relied solely
Speaker 1: on the inconsistent and outright false testimonies of Anderson, Kanyata,
Speaker 1: and Detective Peppy. Carlton, a twenty six year old bother
Speaker 1: at college dude with no connection to the drug trade,
Speaker 1: was portrayed by the prosecution as a dangerous drug kingpin,
Speaker 1: and despite the testimony of alibi witnesses Carlton was convicted
Speaker 1: and sentenced over forty three years in prison. The Queens
Speaker 1: a blocked Carlton's attempts at justice for over three decades
Speaker 1: until the election of District Attorney Olympic Cats and the
Speaker 1: formation of a new Conviction Integrity Unit. A reinvestigation revealed
Speaker 1: the misdeeds of Paul Anderson, Jomo Kenyata, and Detective Peppy,
Speaker 1: as well as led to Carlton's freedom after thirty two
Speaker 1: long years in prison. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back
Speaker 1: to wrongful Conviction. I'm your host, Jason Floman. I'm going
Speaker 1: to start today's episode by issuing an apology and I'm
Speaker 1: going to direct that at our featured guest, Carlton Roman,
Speaker 1: because what he went through doesn't make any logical sense whatsoever,
Speaker 1: even by our crazy standards. And so Mr Roman, thank
Speaker 1: you for being here. And then with Mr Roman today
Speaker 1: is his attorney James Henning. James, welcome to the show.
Speaker 1: Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having us. Jason, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm glad you're here as well to help tell
Speaker 1: this crazy story because honestly, when I was researching this,
Speaker 1: I was kind of just like turning the paper upside down,
Speaker 1: back and forth and saying maybe somebody left something out,
Speaker 1: Maybe there's a mistake or omission here somewhere. I mean, Carlton,
Speaker 1: you were a twenty six year old man who was
Speaker 1: a father boyfriend, going to college, living in Queen's, New York,
Speaker 1: no criminal record whatsoever. So if a guy like you
Speaker 1: can get caught up in something like this, then the
Speaker 1: uncomfortable fact is that nobody's safe. Right, So let's go
Speaker 1: back to that. First of all, where are you from?
Speaker 1: But I'm Jamaican. I was born here into this country
Speaker 1: that was in My mother migrated before me, and she
Speaker 1: worked to a three four jobs sometimes until she was
Speaker 1: able to sponsor me and get me up here. At
Speaker 1: the one point of me coming here was educational purposes
Speaker 1: to go to college. We started going around trying to
Speaker 1: get me into a college, and she kept bringing me
Speaker 1: to different colleges and I'd be looking at the campuses.
Speaker 1: I have no frame of reference and what to go by.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's completely difference. It's a first world country
Speaker 1: and all that. We started looking at colleges and queens
Speaker 1: and I fell in love with Queensboro, which was a
Speaker 1: community of college. That's what I settled on. So my
Speaker 1: mom and her husband started looking at place in Queens
Speaker 1: and then we moved there within like maybe ten months
Speaker 1: of me coming up here. So it seems like everything
Speaker 1: was going pretty well until of course, one day in
Speaker 1: and that's when it all went terribly wrong. Now, this
Speaker 1: was the late eighties in New York, a time that
Speaker 1: was rife with both drug dealing and police corruption that
Speaker 1: stretched through the nineties. And I'm not breaking any news here, right.
Speaker 1: It was the cry epidemic, the War on drugs. A
Speaker 1: lot of bad shit happened on both sides of the law.
Speaker 1: And in Jamaica, Queens, there was a house known for
Speaker 1: drug activity and a guy Carlton knew Paul Anderson, lived there.
Speaker 1: It was his sister's house, and a guy named Jomo Kenyatta,
Speaker 1: who we later find out was a very violent guy
Speaker 1: operating under a number of aliases. He was dealing drugs
Speaker 1: out of that house. There was also a dude that
Speaker 1: Carlton knew, Lloyd Witer or Jimbo as people call them,
Speaker 1: who hung around with those guys and may or may
Speaker 1: not have been involved in drugs as well. Now, on
Speaker 1: March six, a shooting happened at this drug house, killing
Speaker 1: Lloyd Witter and putting Jomo Kenyatta into a coma that
Speaker 1: lasted for weeks, and when police first arrived at the
Speaker 1: crime scene, they found Paul Anderson outside, bound and handcuffed,
Speaker 1: but somehow unharmed. James tell us where the investigation went
Speaker 1: from there. Lloyd Witter is obviously killed and can't give
Speaker 1: an account of the crime. Jomo Kenya Wada is in
Speaker 1: a coma for several weeks following the crime, and so
Speaker 1: the initial stories come from Paul Anderson, and he gives
Speaker 1: several Initially, he claims that a group of individuals came
Speaker 1: to his house, unknown individuals that he describes in detail,
Speaker 1: and they force him inside at gunpoint, and they handcuff
Speaker 1: him and tie him up, and they tell him that
Speaker 1: they're after Jomo Kenyatta and Lloyd Whiter and then they
Speaker 1: do nothing to him when they go and shoot Joe
Speaker 1: Ocanada and Lloyd Witter when they show up. It isn't
Speaker 1: until the next day that Carlton is purportedly identified by
Speaker 1: Paul Anderson as one of the individuals, along with another
Speaker 1: guy he knew, Hollis Laylor Fro among the shooters, and
Speaker 1: this is the same day that Carlton learns of the
Speaker 1: shooting of his very good friend Lloyd Witter and calls
Speaker 1: up Witter's wife and says is this true, and she says, yes,
Speaker 1: it's true, and Carlton, being a good friend, runs over
Speaker 1: to his friend's house to check what's going on. And
Speaker 1: it was found out later that the victim's wife, Andrea Witter,
Speaker 1: was told by someone we don't know who that Carlton
Speaker 1: was responsible for her husband's death. We know she was
Speaker 1: contacted on her husband's beeper after the shooting took place.
Speaker 1: It may have been Paul Anderson, perhaps Detective Peppe, We're
Speaker 1: not exactly sure. So when Carlton got to her house,
Speaker 1: she called the police. When he shows up, nobody answers
Speaker 1: the door at the winter home and he goes across
Speaker 1: the street to a pay phone to call up the
Speaker 1: house and see what's going on. And as he's calling,
Speaker 1: a number of one marked cars show up and Mrs
Speaker 1: Whitter crosses the street, points at Carlton and says, that's
Speaker 1: the man who killed my husband, and things are just
Speaker 1: off to the races. From there, Carlton is identified as
Speaker 1: being one of the shooters and is taken into custody
Speaker 1: by Detective William Peppe. And this is the morning of
Speaker 1: the seventeenth, and it just changes Carlton's life, James, As
Speaker 1: you're talking about these various different stories that Anderson told,
Speaker 1: this is where the whole thing starts to become surreal,
Speaker 1: right because Anderson initially told Detective John Logocio that four
Speaker 1: men came to his house and that he couldn't identify
Speaker 1: the men. And there's no dispute here, Jason, that he
Speaker 1: knew who Carlton was at that point, right, So major
Speaker 1: red flag right there. But this initial description given to
Speaker 1: Detective Legercio was never even presented to the jury and
Speaker 1: was only discovered recently, and he gave a detailed description
Speaker 1: for the police report. According to Paul Anderson, he didn't
Speaker 1: know any of the men, but the apparent leader was
Speaker 1: five two or five three and walked with a limp.
Speaker 1: Two other guys no taller than five four, and then
Speaker 1: the fourth guy. It was about six ft tall with
Speaker 1: a cameo haircut, which you remember from the music videos.
Speaker 1: At that time, this meant tight on the sides and
Speaker 1: tall on top. But then Anderson's account and descriptions changed
Speaker 1: six times before this thing even went to trial, And
Speaker 1: it comes out much later that according to Anderson, he
Speaker 1: was under a great deal of pressure from Detective Peppy,
Speaker 1: who fed of various details along the way, but before
Speaker 1: his narrative changed. His description definitely did. When they get
Speaker 1: Anderson to the precinct, he allegedly identified Carlton Roman as
Speaker 1: the shooter. So somehow he magically remembered that his friend
Speaker 1: was the shooter from these four unknown men who he
Speaker 1: described with some detail, right, and even stranger, Carlton, you
Speaker 1: had no criminal record whatsoever, no involvement with this drughouse.
Speaker 1: He didn't match any of the initial descriptions. Of his
Speaker 1: initial descriptions, He's talking about guys who are under five
Speaker 1: four and then one over six ft, but you're five seven.
Speaker 1: He'll be out here. Do you have any other matching
Speaker 1: characteristics from the initial police report? No, absolutely not. And
Speaker 1: if Anderson knew it was you, Carlton, why in the
Speaker 1: world didn't he say so from the very beginning, right
Speaker 1: when the police first showed up after the shooting. How
Speaker 1: in the world is he not going to say, yeah,
Speaker 1: it was my friend that did this, and here's where
Speaker 1: he lives and here's his phone number. That would have
Speaker 1: been the easiest idea ever if you were the guy
Speaker 1: who actually did it. I think the other thing that
Speaker 1: flows into that, Jason, which has always been a big
Speaker 1: point to me and was a big point to the
Speaker 1: judge who ultimately exonerated Carlton, is I kind of refer
Speaker 1: to it as like a Batman or James Bond scenario
Speaker 1: where Paul Anderson says that these guys came in, told
Speaker 1: him their entire criminal plot, shot two other guys to
Speaker 1: pieces that they told him they were going to shoot,
Speaker 1: and then leave him completely unscathed and able to tell
Speaker 1: this story. Nobody questioned that from the beginning. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: was wondering about that too. And then it gets weirder
Speaker 1: write because with Kenyatta drifting in and out of consciousness
Speaker 1: for several weeks at the hospital, they went in and
Speaker 1: did some really crazy stuff in the hospital in order
Speaker 1: to get him to make an identification. Right, how did
Speaker 1: that work? So, according to Detective Pepe, the lead investigator,
Speaker 1: when Kenyatta awakens from this coma, he goes to visit
Speaker 1: with him and he displays a board with letters on it.
Speaker 1: Because Kenyatta is supposedly nonverbal, and he has Kenyata supposedly
Speaker 1: spell out the names of the people who shot him,
Speaker 1: and according to Pepe, he identifies Carlton, Hollis Laylor by
Speaker 1: their nicknames, and the other two people who by this point,
Speaker 1: Paul Anderson has identified a pair of brothers named Bigger
Speaker 1: and Richie. Now, there are a couple of problems with this.
Speaker 1: Number One, there's no basis in any police procedure for
Speaker 1: going and showing a nonverbal witness a letter board to
Speaker 1: identify people. Number two, there's no indication that Kenyatta is
Speaker 1: separated from Paul Anderson or other people who could have
Speaker 1: influenced an identification. There's no indication that another officer is
Speaker 1: present or involved in this procedure. And number three, when
Speaker 1: Kenyatta ultimately testifies at Carlton's trial, he says, I didn't
Speaker 1: spell out these guys names. I gave three letters. So
Speaker 1: he's only claiming to have identified three people during this procedure,
Speaker 1: and they don't correspond to the claims that Pepe made.
Speaker 1: Not top of this, when Carlton's attorney makes a motion
Speaker 1: to see what procedures produced identifications in this case, the
Speaker 1: prosecution essentially hides Kenyatta's i D. They represent that only
Speaker 1: Paul Anderson has made an idea, and because he knows Carlton,
Speaker 1: there's nothing suggestive in any way, shape or form. But
Speaker 1: Carlton's trial attorneys actually saying somebody in Kenyatta's condition could
Speaker 1: have easily been led to make a misidentification. And the
Speaker 1: people's response, which is relied upon by a court, is
Speaker 1: that no, there's no problem because the only witness to
Speaker 1: make an i D knew the defendant. So they kind
Speaker 1: of pushed forward without any review. These two ideas by
Speaker 1: these guys who were, you know, years later acknowledged to
Speaker 1: be completely incredible and all over the place. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: if I'm hearing you correctly, there was only the two
Speaker 1: of them in the hospital room at the time anyway, right,
Speaker 1: he could have said he identified, you know, Santa Claus
Speaker 1: or Helen Keller as the shooter. Rite anybody, right, because
Speaker 1: it was just his word. And there's an interesting aspect
Speaker 1: there where he aims that Kenyatta spelled out the name
Speaker 1: of Hollis Laylor's girlfriend, which he doesn't explain why Kenyatta
Speaker 1: would have found that to be at all relevant. And
Speaker 1: the first three letters of that name just happened to
Speaker 1: be the same as Carlton's nickname. So it kind of
Speaker 1: stinks all around here. This is how, you know, sort
Speaker 1: of rash they were back in those days. Right, They
Speaker 1: didn't even bother to attempt to pretend to make this
Speaker 1: sound credible because they knew they'd get away with it anyway. Right.
Speaker 1: Was there any other evidence physical for forensick or anything
Speaker 1: tying you to the shooting? Absolutely nothing. During trial, they
Speaker 1: said they scoured the entire hours from top to bottom,
Speaker 1: and they found no fingerprints that were usable, no gun,
Speaker 1: no confession, no physical or biological evidence. It really just
Speaker 1: comes down to the word of Jomo Kenyada and Paul Anderson.
Speaker 1: And then how long were you held before the trial?
Speaker 1: The trial took eighteen months before it got there. I
Speaker 1: was in I did, and you know, march shoot the system.
Speaker 1: A female associate of Mr Greenberg. She came to represent me.
Speaker 1: She came back, I'm such and such and you're go
Speaker 1: in front of a judge, this is what's gonna happen.
Speaker 1: And I remember selling this woman like, what do you
Speaker 1: mean I'm not going to be able to go home today,
Speaker 1: and she's like, no, this is such a I'm like, listen,
Speaker 1: I'm a working man, I have college, I have a
Speaker 1: girlfriend and the child home, and I'm going And she
Speaker 1: started writing all this stuff down, and when we went
Speaker 1: in front of a judge, she hammered him exactly with
Speaker 1: all the information I had just given her a minute ago.
Speaker 1: And the judge granted me bail. Okay, bail, said that
Speaker 1: a hundred thousand dollars bangers gable and left and she
Speaker 1: was like, amazing to judge gave you bail, and you
Speaker 1: know you have a great record. All that, my family
Speaker 1: ran around. They put the house up and I was
Speaker 1: built out, and I remained at liberty, going back and
Speaker 1: forth to court for another sixteen seventeen months until certain
Speaker 1: changes were made in my case. It was a new
Speaker 1: judge and suddenly a new DA When Mrs Lemucio came
Speaker 1: on the case, everything changed. I think in the second
Speaker 1: our sole appearance with her, she asked from my ability
Speaker 1: to be revoked, and the new judge did it, and
Speaker 1: you know, my life went completely in the toilet from
Speaker 1: that point on. This episode is underwritten by A i G,
Speaker 1: a leading global insurance company, and by Accenture, a global
Speaker 1: professional services company with leading capabilities in digital, cloud and security.
Speaker 1: Working to reform the criminal justice system is a key
Speaker 1: pillar of the ai G pro Bono program, which provides
Speaker 1: free legal services and other support to many nonprofit organizations
Speaker 1: and individuals most in need as part of Accenture's commitment
Speaker 1: to racial and civil justice. Accenture's Legal Access Program provides
Speaker 1: pro bono legal services in partnership with more than forty organizations,
Speaker 1: bringing meaningful change to people and communities worldwide. And so
Speaker 1: we moved to the trial so because of the fact
Speaker 1: that there was no evidence, no actual evidence. The entire
Speaker 1: case of the state relied solely on the testimony of
Speaker 1: Detective Peppy, who we find out is totally unreliable. And then,
Speaker 1: of course the contradictory and inconsistent testimonies of two perhaps incentivized,
Speaker 1: if not at least coerced witnesses, Anderson and Kenyatta, and
Speaker 1: they each described the shooting and the events leading up
Speaker 1: to it. So Anderson's testimony, he said that Carlton Roman,
Speaker 1: Hollis Laylor, Jomo Kenyatta, and Lloyd Witter were at Paul
Speaker 1: Anderson's house on March fifty nine, the day before the shooting,
Speaker 1: a quote unquote bus occurred after Jomo Kenyatta and Lloyd
Speaker 1: Witterer took a gun from Carlton Roman. Did you ever
Speaker 1: have a gun? Carlton, by the way, did you ever
Speaker 1: own a gun? Absolutely not, No, of course not. And
Speaker 1: now back to Anderson's bogus account again. He said that
Speaker 1: day after this alleged a bus over a gun that
Speaker 1: you never owned, Jomo Kenyatta and Lloyd Witner were supposed
Speaker 1: to come over to help him, Paul Anderson, I'm talking
Speaker 1: about move, but allegedly before they arrived, Carlton Roman, Hollis
Speaker 1: Laylor and these two other made up characters Bigger and
Speaker 1: Richie came by handcuffed Anderson and put him in the basement.
Speaker 1: Several hours later, he heard the doorbell and then a
Speaker 1: series of shots. He also testified that he was an architect.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're gonna lie, why not just say
Speaker 1: you're a freaking astronaut. He also testified that he was
Speaker 1: not involved with drug dealing, and when it was alleged
Speaker 1: that he Paul Anderson had been shot by the victim
Speaker 1: Lloyd witter just a few months earlier in November, he
Speaker 1: denied that he had been shot or treated at a
Speaker 1: hospital for the shooting. He also refused to show the
Speaker 1: leg where it was alleged that he had been shot.
Speaker 1: So he was an architect, had nothing to do with
Speaker 1: drug dealing or any ill will towards the victim in
Speaker 1: this case. What we know now is Paul Anderson's residence
Speaker 1: was a drug house. It was used for drugs and gambling.
Speaker 1: And the underlying thing is that the law enforcement actors
Speaker 1: involved in this case had to have known the truth
Speaker 1: about Paul Anderson and what he was doing. So to
Speaker 1: let him get on the stand and say, oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm an architect, I've never been shot, it was just
Speaker 1: fundamentally unfair. Now we get to Kenyatta's testimony, so he
Speaker 1: said that the initial March fifteenth argument was about drugs
Speaker 1: and involves Carlton Roman, Hollis Laylor, and Lloyd Witter, not
Speaker 1: a gun as Paul Anderson said. According to Kenyata, he
Speaker 1: and Lloyd went back to Anderson's house on March sixteenth,
Speaker 1: and when they walked into the house, the door shut
Speaker 1: quickly behind them, followed by gunshots, and he allegedly saw
Speaker 1: Hollis Laylor and Carlton Roman shooting Lloyd Witter when he
Speaker 1: tried to run away, Carlton Roman allegedly shot him on
Speaker 1: the stairs. On direct examination, Kenyada testified that his criminal
Speaker 1: record consisted of a single conviction for reckless driving and
Speaker 1: that he was not involved in dealing drugs. He was
Speaker 1: recalled to the stand after Carlton's attorney showed of him
Speaker 1: leading guilty to attempted possession of a weapon after being
Speaker 1: charged with attempted murder. So not only does he lie
Speaker 1: in the stand, but the two lying liars who lied
Speaker 1: don't match up with each other. Not surprising, and they
Speaker 1: both just directly lied about their own backgrounds in ways
Speaker 1: that were probably false and in this case were in
Speaker 1: fact proven false. And Carlton, I have to ask you
Speaker 1: before we even get the Peppy's testimony. You lived through this, right,
Speaker 1: I mean, what were you thinking at that time? Well,
Speaker 1: I was so stupid. I was just so naive. I
Speaker 1: still expected Kenyada to come in there and say no,
Speaker 1: that it's not this guy. He wasn't there. So I
Speaker 1: was sitting there listening to this guy talking about how
Speaker 1: I shot him and all this other stuff, and I
Speaker 1: was like, I'm sitting here with my mouth hanging out.
Speaker 1: I remember at one point turned around to look at
Speaker 1: my mom, and my grandmother was there. They were also
Speaker 1: sitting there with their mouths hanging. No. I couldn't believe
Speaker 1: he was actually saying any of this stuff. I'm sitting
Speaker 1: there like a training at me listening to this stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean he must have felt like you just want
Speaker 1: to scream out and say, wait a minute, that's not true, right.
Speaker 1: I wanted to do that, and I made several attempts
Speaker 1: on Mr Greenberg. He had a hand on my knee
Speaker 1: under the table and he kept squeezing my knee. Just relax,
Speaker 1: don't worry, take it easy, don't make a scene in
Speaker 1: the court. It's not like I was going to turn
Speaker 1: the table over or anything. But I wanted to really,
Speaker 1: like stand up and scream. It is do like you're lying.
Speaker 1: You understand what I'm saying. And I've always regretted that
Speaker 1: I listened to my attorney. From what I read in
Speaker 1: the research, there was very little defense to speak of. James,
Speaker 1: can you talk about what did this guy do wrong?
Speaker 1: And what did he leave out and how did he
Speaker 1: manage to blow what should have been an easy win.
Speaker 1: We only have one podcast, so I can't really go
Speaker 1: through everything he did wrong. Carlton's attorney had an alibi
Speaker 1: that Carlton provided to him. He had alibi witnesses that
Speaker 1: supported that Carlton was nowhere near Paul Anderson's house on
Speaker 1: the day of the shootings. Carlton testified in his own defense.
Speaker 1: His testimony was coherent with his alibi witnesses. Mr Greenberg,
Speaker 1: the trial attorney, called some of them, but then he
Speaker 1: permitted so much of this false insinuation by the prosecution
Speaker 1: that Carlton was a drug dealer. One example of this
Speaker 1: is that Carlton had a car that his mother had
Speaker 1: put the down payment on, and all Mr Greenberg would
Speaker 1: have needed to do is bring in the financing agreement
Speaker 1: for that car, which was a fairly easy thing to
Speaker 1: do to show that this wasn't the product of drug money.
Speaker 1: It was a car that was financed by his mother.
Speaker 1: And instead, because he didn't do that, the prosecutor was
Speaker 1: able to make it seem as if, look, this is
Speaker 1: a drug dealer who's buying new cars and living high
Speaker 1: on drug money. But Mr Greenberg just didn't rise to
Speaker 1: the occasion. In response to these bogus allegations by the prosecution,
Speaker 1: there were so many opportunities where he just showed that
Speaker 1: he had not been engaged in the case. And maybe
Speaker 1: that's because in the time between the shootings and the trial,
Speaker 1: it didn't seem like Paul Anderson was actually going to
Speaker 1: come back from Jamaica to testify. He had fled to
Speaker 1: Jamaica after the grand jury, and from what I gathered
Speaker 1: from the transcripts, I in Greenberg thought this was going
Speaker 1: to be dismissed. But you don't not prepare based on that.
Speaker 1: You've still got a client on trial for murder. You
Speaker 1: gotta be ready to defend them. And so with the
Speaker 1: fact that these lies were allowed to be foisted on
Speaker 1: the jury and that your own team didn't really do
Speaker 1: much of anything to help you, the results were predictable,
Speaker 1: and ultimately you were convicted of second degree murder as
Speaker 1: well as other counts and sentenced to forty three and
Speaker 1: a half years in prison. Can you describe what you
Speaker 1: were feeling in that moment they said guilty and I
Speaker 1: just fell into a black hole like I couldn't think.
Speaker 1: I don't remember it was in the court. I don't
Speaker 1: remember even if I looked around on anybody. Everything that's
Speaker 1: closed in at me at once and like I was
Speaker 1: just dragged into a black hole. I couldn't think. I
Speaker 1: was a complete wreck. It was like the worst thing
Speaker 1: in the world that could happen to anybody. The thing
Speaker 1: that never left me was like, I did not do this,
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna have to prove that to everybody. So
Speaker 1: I never lost any of that. Over all the years,
Speaker 1: I always knew deep down that some way, somehow I'm
Speaker 1: getting out of this. You're gonna know I did not
Speaker 1: do this. I'm an only child from my mother and
Speaker 1: I have one daughter now, and those are the most
Speaker 1: two important people for me in the world. And I
Speaker 1: knew if I broke what it would do to my
Speaker 1: mom it would destroy her completely. I really felt that
Speaker 1: that hanger that this had happened to me, and that
Speaker 1: I'm dragging my mother right along with me through all
Speaker 1: of this stuff. So I could not stop, and I
Speaker 1: never did. No, you did not and facing denial after
Speaker 1: denial from the courts and the opposition from Richard Brown's
Speaker 1: d A office and Queen's Justice did not look like
Speaker 1: it must have looked like a very distant possibility, but
Speaker 1: you just didn't quit. So, James, when did you get
Speaker 1: involved and how does this situation finally get to where
Speaker 1: we are now? And how did the Queen's District Attorney's
Speaker 1: race play a role in all of that? In two
Speaker 1: thou fifteen, the Queen's DA's office certifies Carlton's file as
Speaker 1: completely missing. The prosecution file first case is gone. And
Speaker 1: this is although since his conviction in nine Carlton had
Speaker 1: been litigating his conviction. I come in in two thousand
Speaker 1: seventeen as co counsel for another attorney who had been
Speaker 1: working on Carlton's case, and we put an emotion based
Speaker 1: on some material that we felt was newly discovered from
Speaker 1: the Hollis Slaylor file, and we were unsuccessful in that motion.
Speaker 1: It was denied in two thousand nineteen. A lot of
Speaker 1: this is because they could kind of argue whatever they
Speaker 1: wanted in the absence of a prosecution file. There's no
Speaker 1: reference point for saying this is what occurred or this
Speaker 1: is what was said, because all of the material was
Speaker 1: purportedly lost. The attorney that I had been working with
Speaker 1: left the case, and Carlton asked me if I would
Speaker 1: stay on as lead counsel, and I said sure, and
Speaker 1: we sent an investigator to Jamaica to locate Paul Anderson
Speaker 1: because we said, look, there's not a lot of moving
Speaker 1: parts in this case. And in two thousand nineteen, we
Speaker 1: went down and spoke with Paul Anderson and he recanted
Speaker 1: in an affidavit and on tape. And as you alluded to, Jason,
Speaker 1: there was a race for Queen's DA. Richard Brown had
Speaker 1: been there for years. His office had steadfastly opposed any
Speaker 1: attempt by Carlton to try and get a review of
Speaker 1: this evidence. Carlton had never had a hearing on any
Speaker 1: of his motions. And we brought the recantation of Paul
Speaker 1: Anderson to the new district attorney who had been elected,
Speaker 1: Melinda cats Her newly formed Conviction Integrity Unit, and they
Speaker 1: agreed to a reinvestigation of this case. And ultimately what
Speaker 1: they found and what we put forward made them agree
Speaker 1: that Carlton should no longer be in prison, that this
Speaker 1: conviction should be vacated. So what were the major points
Speaker 1: that ultimately tipped the scales of justice back to where
Speaker 1: they should have been in the first place. So, for one,
Speaker 1: it's Paul Anderson unsurprisingly comes forward and acknowledges that his
Speaker 1: story was bs and he knew that the cops were
Speaker 1: looking at his house, which belonged to his sister, and
Speaker 1: that they knew that there was a legal activity going
Speaker 1: on there, that there was a drug operation running out
Speaker 1: of there which was headed up by Joe Moo Kenyata.
Speaker 1: And we also learned that Joemo Kenyada was operating under
Speaker 1: we don't know how many different aliases, but other than
Speaker 1: the crimes that were revealed at trial, he was wanted
Speaker 1: for at least one murder that's still a cold case
Speaker 1: in Queens. He was a heavy drug dealer. His brother
Speaker 1: was a drug dealer. Essentially, there was motive for many
Speaker 1: other people other than Carlton, who had no criminal record,
Speaker 1: to have committed this crime, including even the state's main witness,
Speaker 1: Paul Anderson, who according to new eyewitnesses, had survived being
Speaker 1: shot by the victim in this case, ace Lloyd Witter.
Speaker 1: In November, the Conviction Integrity Unit did a number of
Speaker 1: interviews with Carlton and as alibi witnesses, and those essentially
Speaker 1: corroberated the alibi that was or should have been presented
Speaker 1: at trial. And interviews with Andrea Wider and others demonstrate
Speaker 1: that Detective Pepe was unreliable to say the least detective
Speaker 1: Pepe fabricated a visa to bring Paul Anderson back from
Speaker 1: Jamaica to testify at Carlton's trial. The fact that he's
Speaker 1: willing to break federal law fabricate an official document to
Speaker 1: push forward this case. Where does that end? Does that
Speaker 1: end with fabricating witness statements? You have to take a
Speaker 1: hard look at that. This is the guy that pushes
Speaker 1: forth the evidence in this case. Ultimately, what they come
Speaker 1: down to is that the original descriptions from Paul Anderson
Speaker 1: that did not match Carlton Roman are nowhere in the transcript,
Speaker 1: and that new evidence completely and totally undermines the two witnesses,
Speaker 1: Paul Anderson and Jomo Kenyada, whose testimony is used to
Speaker 1: convict him. So now you're still in at this point, Carlton.
Speaker 1: You've been through everything at this point, and you've been
Speaker 1: through every heartbreak and disappointment. But are you now feeling
Speaker 1: like there really is finally light at the end of
Speaker 1: this horrible tunnel? Yes. I realized then that this was
Speaker 1: the closest I've come to getting the truth revealed and
Speaker 1: my freedom back. I've been to the appellate Division, I've
Speaker 1: tried have been to the Court of Appeals, I did
Speaker 1: federal a I've done everything, and everywhere that I went
Speaker 1: it was just a consistent slam in the face, denied, denied, denied, denied, denied.
Speaker 1: Like James correctly said, despite all the craziness you're seeing
Speaker 1: in my case, no judge that actually looked at it
Speaker 1: and seeing fit to at least grant me a hearing.
Speaker 1: So nobody wanted to hear anything at all from me.
Speaker 1: I just kept going back like a boxer getting punch
Speaker 1: in the face every time, and just kept going back.
Speaker 1: But when this was happening now, it kind of felt different.
Speaker 1: It felt different, mainly because at the Year's Office there
Speaker 1: were different people there and it seemed like they were serious.
Speaker 1: It was actually new people here who might be receptive
Speaker 1: to correct in what had happened to me. So finally,
Speaker 1: August nine, the Queen's District Attorney and you James, filed
Speaker 1: the joint motion asking the court to vacate Carlton Romans convictions.
Speaker 1: In that affirmation, the District Attorney's office said, quote, it
Speaker 1: had concluded that three witnesses and the facts undermine the
Speaker 1: credibility of the key trial witnesses Anderson and Kenyatta could
Speaker 1: not have been discovered in the context of your trial, Carlton,
Speaker 1: with the exercise of due diligence, and are of such
Speaker 1: character that they would have probably led to a verdict
Speaker 1: more favorable to the defendant. So on August nine, one,
Speaker 1: Justice Michelle Johnson of Queen's County Supreme Court granted the
Speaker 1: motion and dismissed the charges against you and d A.
Speaker 1: Melinda cat said, there is a quote. We are not
Speaker 1: so arrogant to think that the system doesn't make mistakes
Speaker 1: powerful words. She went on to say, when we find
Speaker 1: mischaracters of justice, we do everything in our power to
Speaker 1: correct them quickly and court into the daily news, it's
Speaker 1: quoted you, Carlon was saying right outside the courtroom. I'm
Speaker 1: not technically a shy person. I have nothing prepared to
Speaker 1: say to you all, but let me say one thing.
Speaker 1: The justice system. Everybody knows it's broken. I've read a
Speaker 1: thousand reports that say that. But words alone aren't going
Speaker 1: to get that fixed. You have all have a part
Speaker 1: to play in this also. But I'm here now, but
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people in there who need your attention. Now,
Speaker 1: there's people in there who have been fighting for justice
Speaker 1: longer than I have end. Quote, what a fucking thing.
Speaker 1: By the way, here, you are just getting out of
Speaker 1: this thirty two year or deal that something out of
Speaker 1: a Greek tragedy or something, and the first thing you're
Speaker 1: doing is thinking about other people. I mean, who are you, dude?
Speaker 1: Who are you? I've heard that so much different times.
Speaker 1: A lot of it is a blurnout to I have
Speaker 1: to watch the thing to digest fully the entire moment.
Speaker 1: It was just overwhelming for me. I had a conversation
Speaker 1: with somebody that was locked in sing sing that I
Speaker 1: knew for a long time, you know, made a securest
Speaker 1: phone call and I was talking to him and he said, Man,
Speaker 1: I just want to to talk to you about one thing,
Speaker 1: and it's what you said when you came out of
Speaker 1: the court. He said, there's dozens of people here who
Speaker 1: don't know you, and they're just so happy you said that.
Speaker 1: They're praising you and all this other stuff. I use
Speaker 1: this reference. It's like if you're in the desert and
Speaker 1: you're dying of thirst and there's wild animals circling you,
Speaker 1: and you're there with a bunch of people and some
Speaker 1: are miraculously you stumble and make it out. The first
Speaker 1: thing any decent human beings should do is say, wait,
Speaker 1: there's more people in there that needs help. So that's
Speaker 1: the point of view where I was coming from. And
Speaker 1: you know, it's a day for justice and all that,
Speaker 1: but we can't forget all the people in there who's
Speaker 1: going to the very same thing. Yeah, it just speaks
Speaker 1: a lot to your character. I'm sure there's a lot
Speaker 1: of people listening. Now. You're inspiring them to want to
Speaker 1: take action to make a difference, and you're inspiring me
Speaker 1: to want to two more. And what would you suggest
Speaker 1: that's a course of action. The first thing that the
Speaker 1: mind for me is when people wind up in my
Speaker 1: situation and they finally get exonerated, something needs to be
Speaker 1: done to reintegrate them into society. For instance, I've lost
Speaker 1: all my paperwork. I have no idea where my Social
Speaker 1: Security card is, passport, my immigration papers, my driver's license,
Speaker 1: all that stuff is gone. I have to go to
Speaker 1: hell just to get a learner's permit. On the way
Speaker 1: to getting the driver's license, I went to the d
Speaker 1: m V and I had nothing to show them that
Speaker 1: would make them allow me to take the written tests
Speaker 1: to start the whold process over. The thing that helped
Speaker 1: me most get that accomplished was the front page of
Speaker 1: the Daily News with my picture on the cover saying
Speaker 1: I was exonerated after thirty two years. I know right now,
Speaker 1: like off the top of my head, three other exonerated
Speaker 1: people who's out here and we're in regular touch, and
Speaker 1: all of us had the same problem. You can't go
Speaker 1: to a bank and establish an account because when you
Speaker 1: go there, there first thing you're asking you for his
Speaker 1: I D. I remember pulling out the last j L
Speaker 1: D they gave me and it was told like, well,
Speaker 1: that's absolutely useless. I went to try to get my
Speaker 1: social Security card reached. Well you need a driver advice
Speaker 1: and then you need a password. But I don't have
Speaker 1: any of those things. And when I go to another office,
Speaker 1: they asked me for my social Security card. So it's
Speaker 1: like this cap when the two things happening and something
Speaker 1: needs to be done about that. Now we have But
Speaker 1: I always referred to as my favorite part of the show,
Speaker 1: and everybody who's listening knows what I'm talking about because
Speaker 1: he gave me say it every week. But this is
Speaker 1: the part of the show called closing arguments. And it
Speaker 1: works like this. First of all, I thank each of
Speaker 1: you again, James Henning for the great work you've done
Speaker 1: for Mr Roman and on behalf of other clients. Thank
Speaker 1: you for that, and thank you for taking your time
Speaker 1: to be on the show with us today. Thanks for
Speaker 1: having us. Jason, what you're doing means a lot, and
Speaker 1: of course same for you Carlton again, thank you so
Speaker 1: much for just being yourself and inspiring everybody to march
Speaker 1: forward and try to make change. And now the closing
Speaker 1: arguments works like this. I turned my microphone off, I
Speaker 1: leave yours on. James, you're gonna go first, if that's okay,
Speaker 1: and say the best for last. With all due respect
Speaker 1: to you, And all you have to do now is
Speaker 1: say whatever you want, anything that we may have left out,
Speaker 1: or anything that's left unsaid. This is closing arguments. James Henning,
Speaker 1: you go, dropped the mic, pass it off to Carlton,
Speaker 1: and that's how we'll close the show. I think basically
Speaker 1: what I would say is that Carlton's case, the cliche
Speaker 1: never give up gets thrown around a lot. There was
Speaker 1: not a tremendous amount of hope after his entire file
Speaker 1: was lost, but he always kept fighting, and I think
Speaker 1: that's the spirit that this story should inspire in people.
Speaker 1: The people who actually did this were allowed to go
Speaker 1: free and potentially take other lives, but Carlton absolutely refused
Speaker 1: to let his life be taken, and I think that
Speaker 1: should be a message to everybody in whatever situation they're in.
Speaker 1: This guy was in the darkest of places and he
Speaker 1: just never gave up. And it's a beautiful thing to
Speaker 1: see because he's a truly remarkable person. And I'm very
Speaker 1: proud to have played whatever role I did in helping
Speaker 1: bring him back to society because he's an important guide
Speaker 1: and how you know, he's great. So that's what I'll say,
Speaker 1: and I'll pass around to him. Hold public officials accountable.
Speaker 1: All the district attorney and the idea is accountable, and
Speaker 1: even more important, all the judges accountable. People tend to
Speaker 1: forget how much power a judge as and how much
Speaker 1: thing a judge can look away from. From my point
Speaker 1: of view, if my case had landed in front of
Speaker 1: a fear judge, even say twenty five years ago, this
Speaker 1: should have been over. Then judges can be allowed to
Speaker 1: just ignore the cries of innocent people because they just
Speaker 1: don't feel like reviewing it or granted a hearing or
Speaker 1: looking further into what happened or whatever. So there needs
Speaker 1: to be a spotlight on what judges are doing, how
Speaker 1: they're coming to the conclusions that they're coming to, and
Speaker 1: when they're shirking your duties. Man, they got to get
Speaker 1: out of there. And it's the same thing with the
Speaker 1: District attorney's offices. And again, none of that stuff is
Speaker 1: secret stuff. Start calling hesterin, hammering whoever it is that's
Speaker 1: in the points of authority that's responsible for what's going
Speaker 1: on in these courtrooms when they can't live up to
Speaker 1: the holtes they take, get them out of there, whole
Speaker 1: public officials accountable, make them do better. Thank you for
Speaker 1: listening to Wrong for Conviction. Please support your local innocence
Speaker 1: organizations and go to the links in our bio to
Speaker 1: see how you can help. I'd like to thank our
Speaker 1: production team Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cleburne, and Kevin Wardas.
Speaker 1: The music on this show, as always, is by three
Speaker 1: time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Wrong for Conviction, on Twitter at
Speaker 1: Wrong Conviction, and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast. Wrongful
Speaker 1: Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts in
Speaker 1: association with Signal Company Number one