1 00:00:03,040 --> 00:00:05,800 Speaker 1: In nineteen eighty nine, Paul Anderson lived in a Jamaica 2 00:00:05,880 --> 00:00:08,640 Speaker 1: queen's drug house owned by his sister but operated by 3 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:13,080 Speaker 1: a man named Jomo Kenyada. On March sixteenth, nineteen eighty nine, 4 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 1: Jomo Kenyada and one of his associates, Lloyd Witter, were 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,239 Speaker 1: shot at the house, leaving wid Or dead and Kenyada 6 00:00:19,239 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: in a coma. Police found Paul Anderson alone, bound, handcuffed, 7 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:28,680 Speaker 1: and unharmed outside the home, under pressure from Lee Detective 8 00:00:28,720 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: William Peppe and desperately trying to divert attention away from himself. 9 00:00:32,920 --> 00:00:37,120 Speaker 1: Anderson's initial description of four unknown men quickly changed to 10 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: that of two acquaintances who did not fit his initial descriptions, 11 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:45,839 Speaker 1: Carlton Roman and Hollis Laylor. With no physical or forensic 12 00:00:45,840 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 1: evidence tying Carlton or Hollis to the shooting, the state's 13 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:53,360 Speaker 1: case relied solely on the inconsistent and outright false testimonies 14 00:00:53,360 --> 00:00:58,320 Speaker 1: of Anderson, Kenyada, and Detective Peppe. Carlton, a twenty six 15 00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,280 Speaker 1: year old bother at college due with no connection to 16 00:01:01,320 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: the drug trade, was portrayed by the prosecution as a 17 00:01:04,280 --> 00:01:08,520 Speaker 1: dangerous drug kingpin, and despite the testimony of alibi witnesses, 18 00:01:09,040 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 1: Carlton was convicted and sentenced over forty three years in prison. 19 00:01:13,680 --> 00:01:17,360 Speaker 1: The Queen Za blocked Carlton's attempts at justice for over 20 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:21,760 Speaker 1: three decades until the election of District Attorney of Olympic 21 00:01:21,840 --> 00:01:25,039 Speaker 1: Cats and the formation of a new conviction Integrity Unit. 22 00:01:25,480 --> 00:01:30,120 Speaker 1: A reinvestigation revealed the misdeeds of Paul Anderson, Joe Mukanyata, 23 00:01:30,400 --> 00:01:34,120 Speaker 1: and Detective Peppe, as well as led to Carlton's freedom 24 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:39,240 Speaker 1: after thirty two long years in prison. This is Wronful Conviction. 25 00:01:56,280 --> 00:01:59,280 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Wronful Conviction. I'm your host, Jason Flahman. 26 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: I'm going to start today's episode by issuing an apology 27 00:02:03,160 --> 00:02:05,680 Speaker 1: and I'm going to direct that at our featured guest, 28 00:02:05,680 --> 00:02:08,679 Speaker 1: Carlton Roman, because what he went through doesn't make any 29 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: logical sense whatsoever, even by our crazy standards. And so, 30 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:14,440 Speaker 1: mister Roman, thank you for being here. And then with 31 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:18,640 Speaker 1: mister Roman today is his attorney, James Henning. James, welcome 32 00:02:18,760 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: to the show. 33 00:02:19,880 --> 00:02:21,880 Speaker 2: Pleasure to be here. Thanks for having us. Jason. 34 00:02:22,200 --> 00:02:23,959 Speaker 1: Yeah, and I'm glad you're here as well to help 35 00:02:24,000 --> 00:02:27,080 Speaker 1: tell this crazy story because honestly, when I was researching this. 36 00:02:27,200 --> 00:02:30,360 Speaker 1: I was kind of just like turning the paper upside down, 37 00:02:30,800 --> 00:02:33,840 Speaker 1: back and forth and saying, maybe somebody left something out, 38 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: Maybe there's a mistake or an omission here somewhere. I mean, Carlton, 39 00:02:38,200 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: you were a twenty six year old man who was 40 00:02:40,200 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: a father boyfriend, going to college, living in Queens, New York, 41 00:02:43,360 --> 00:02:46,480 Speaker 1: no criminal record whatsoever. So if a guy like you 42 00:02:46,520 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: can get caught up in something like this, then the 43 00:02:48,720 --> 00:02:52,360 Speaker 1: uncomfortable fact is that nobody's safe. Right, So let's go 44 00:02:52,480 --> 00:02:55,000 Speaker 1: back to that. First of all, where are you from? 45 00:02:55,160 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 3: But I'm Jamaican. I was born Derek into this country 46 00:02:57,880 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 3: in nineteen eighty one. I was nineteen, and my mother 47 00:03:01,000 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 3: migrated before me, and she worked two tree four jobs 48 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:07,480 Speaker 3: sometimes until she was able to sponsor me and get 49 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 3: me up here. The one point of me coming here 50 00:03:09,400 --> 00:03:11,200 Speaker 3: was educational purposes. 51 00:03:10,800 --> 00:03:12,160 Speaker 4: To go to college. 52 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,320 Speaker 3: We started going around trying to get me into a college, 53 00:03:15,360 --> 00:03:18,000 Speaker 3: and she kept bringing me to different colleges and I'd 54 00:03:18,000 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 3: be looking at the hamphuses. I have no frame of 55 00:03:20,200 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 3: reference to what to go by. I mean, it's completely different. 56 00:03:23,200 --> 00:03:25,880 Speaker 3: It's a first world country and all that. We started 57 00:03:25,880 --> 00:03:28,560 Speaker 3: looking at colleges in Queens, and I fell in love 58 00:03:28,600 --> 00:03:30,840 Speaker 3: with Queensboro, which was a community of college. 59 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:32,160 Speaker 4: That's what I settled on. 60 00:03:32,360 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 3: So my mom and her husband started looking at place 61 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:37,840 Speaker 3: in Queens and then we moved there within like maybe 62 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 3: ten months of me coming up here. 63 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:43,080 Speaker 1: So it seems like everything was going pretty well until, 64 00:03:43,120 --> 00:03:46,119 Speaker 1: of course, one day in nineteen eighty nine, and that's 65 00:03:46,120 --> 00:03:49,080 Speaker 1: when it all went terribly wrong. Now, this was the 66 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: late eighties in New York, a time that was rife 67 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,200 Speaker 1: with both drug dealing and police corruption that stretched through 68 00:03:56,240 --> 00:03:59,320 Speaker 1: the nineties. And I'm not breaking any news here, right. 69 00:03:59,360 --> 00:04:02,240 Speaker 1: It was the epidemic, the War on drugs. A lot 70 00:04:02,280 --> 00:04:04,600 Speaker 1: of bad shit happened on both sides of the law. 71 00:04:04,680 --> 00:04:07,000 Speaker 1: And in Jamaica, Queen's there was a house known for 72 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:10,400 Speaker 1: drug activity and a guy Carlton knew Paul Anderson lived there. 73 00:04:10,520 --> 00:04:14,400 Speaker 1: It was his sister's house, and a guy named Jomo Kenyada, 74 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: who we later find out was a very violent guy 75 00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,640 Speaker 1: operating under a number of aliases, who was dealing drugs 76 00:04:20,680 --> 00:04:23,400 Speaker 1: out of that house. There was also a dude that 77 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:27,280 Speaker 1: Carlton knew, Lloyd Witter or Jimbo as people call them, 78 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: who hung around with those guys and may or may 79 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,599 Speaker 1: not have been involved in drugs as well. Now, on 80 00:04:32,720 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 1: March sixteenth, nineteen eighty nine, a shooting happened at this 81 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:40,320 Speaker 1: drug house, killing Lloyd Witter and putting Jomo Kenyada into 82 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 1: a coma that lasted for weeks. And when police first 83 00:04:44,240 --> 00:04:48,320 Speaker 1: arrived at the crime scene, they found Paul Anderson outside 84 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:53,039 Speaker 1: bound and handcuffed, but somehow unharmed. James tell us where 85 00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:54,560 Speaker 1: the investigation went from there. 86 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 5: Lloyd Witter is obviously killed and can't give an account 87 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,800 Speaker 5: of the crime. Jomo Kenya is in a coma for 88 00:05:01,839 --> 00:05:05,800 Speaker 5: several weeks following the crime, and so the initial stories 89 00:05:05,839 --> 00:05:10,320 Speaker 5: come from Paul Anderson, and he gives several Initially, he 90 00:05:10,400 --> 00:05:13,679 Speaker 5: claims that a group of individuals came to his house, 91 00:05:13,960 --> 00:05:17,239 Speaker 5: unknown individuals that he describes in detail, and they force 92 00:05:17,320 --> 00:05:19,920 Speaker 5: him inside at gunpoint, and they handcuff him and tie 93 00:05:20,000 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 5: him up, and they tell him that they're after Jomo 94 00:05:23,720 --> 00:05:28,080 Speaker 5: Kanyada and Lloyd Witter, and then they do nothing to 95 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 5: him when they go and shoot Jomo Kanyada and Lloyd 96 00:05:30,800 --> 00:05:33,919 Speaker 5: Witter when they show up. It isn't until the next 97 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:38,120 Speaker 5: day that Carlton is purportedly identified by Paul Anderson as 98 00:05:38,560 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 5: one of the individuals along with another guy he knew 99 00:05:41,120 --> 00:05:45,479 Speaker 5: Hollis Laylor from among the shooters. And this is the 100 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:47,520 Speaker 5: same day that Carlton learns of the shooting of his 101 00:05:47,800 --> 00:05:50,839 Speaker 5: very good friend Lloyd Witter and calls up Witter's wife 102 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:52,279 Speaker 5: and says is this true? 103 00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 2: And she says, yes, it's true. 104 00:05:54,800 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 5: And Carlton, being a good friend, runs over to his 105 00:05:56,839 --> 00:05:58,640 Speaker 5: friend's house to check what's going. 106 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:01,280 Speaker 1: On, and it was found out that the victim's wife, 107 00:06:01,360 --> 00:06:04,240 Speaker 1: Andrea Witer, was told by someone we don't know who 108 00:06:04,480 --> 00:06:08,080 Speaker 1: that Carlton was responsible for her husband's death. We know 109 00:06:08,240 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: she was contacted on her husband's beeper after the shooting 110 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:15,679 Speaker 1: took place. It may have been Paul Anderson perhaps Detective Peppe, 111 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: were not exactly sure, so when Carlton got to her house, 112 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:20,719 Speaker 1: she called the police. 113 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:22,920 Speaker 5: When he shows up, nobody answers the door at the 114 00:06:22,920 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 5: Witer home and he goes across the street to a 115 00:06:25,520 --> 00:06:28,560 Speaker 5: payphone to call up the house and see what's going on. 116 00:06:29,000 --> 00:06:32,080 Speaker 5: And as he's calling, a number of unmarked carrs show 117 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:35,360 Speaker 5: up and missus Whitter crosses the street, points at Carlton 118 00:06:35,400 --> 00:06:37,920 Speaker 5: and says that's the man who killed my husband, and 119 00:06:38,360 --> 00:06:40,680 Speaker 5: things are just off to the races. From there, Carlton 120 00:06:40,760 --> 00:06:43,560 Speaker 5: is identified as being one of the shooters and is 121 00:06:43,560 --> 00:06:46,920 Speaker 5: taken into custody by Detective William Peppe. And this is 122 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:49,680 Speaker 5: the morning of the seventeenth, and it just changes Carlton's. 123 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:53,880 Speaker 1: Life, James, as you're talking about these various different stories 124 00:06:53,880 --> 00:06:57,160 Speaker 1: that Anderson told, this is where the whole thing starts 125 00:06:57,160 --> 00:07:01,520 Speaker 1: to become surreal, right because Anderson initially told Detective John 126 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:05,159 Speaker 1: Loguercio that four men came to his house and that 127 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:06,680 Speaker 1: he couldn't identify the men. 128 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:09,240 Speaker 5: And there's no dispute here, Jason, that he knew who 129 00:07:09,279 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 5: Carlton was at that point. 130 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,239 Speaker 1: Right, So major red flag right there. But this initial 131 00:07:14,240 --> 00:07:17,560 Speaker 1: description given to Detective Leagercio was never even presented to 132 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: the jury and was only discovered recently, and he gave 133 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: a detailed description for the police report. According to Paul Anderson, 134 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,200 Speaker 1: he didn't know any of the men, but the apparent 135 00:07:28,280 --> 00:07:30,240 Speaker 1: leader was five to two or five to three and 136 00:07:30,360 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 1: walked with a limp. Two other guys no taller than 137 00:07:34,040 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: five to four, and then the fourth guy was about 138 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,520 Speaker 1: six feet tall with a cameo haircut, which you remember 139 00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 1: from the music videos. At that time, this meant tight 140 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,720 Speaker 1: on the sides and tall on top. But then Anderson's 141 00:07:46,760 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 1: account and descriptions changed six times before this thing even 142 00:07:51,320 --> 00:07:54,520 Speaker 1: went to trial, and it comes out much later that 143 00:07:54,560 --> 00:07:57,360 Speaker 1: according to Anderson, he was under a great deal of 144 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:01,680 Speaker 1: pressure from Detective Peppi, who fed various details along the way, 145 00:08:02,240 --> 00:08:07,720 Speaker 1: but before his narrative changed, his description definitely did. When 146 00:08:07,880 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: they get Anderson to the precinct, he allegedly identified Carlton 147 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:15,920 Speaker 1: Roman as the shooter. So somehow he magically remembered that 148 00:08:16,080 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 1: his friend was the shooter from these four unknown men 149 00:08:20,880 --> 00:08:26,280 Speaker 1: who he described with some detail, right, an even stranger, Carlton, 150 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:29,440 Speaker 1: You had no criminal record whatsoever, no involvement with this 151 00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:32,280 Speaker 1: drug house. You didn't match any of the initial descriptions 152 00:08:32,280 --> 00:08:34,920 Speaker 1: of his initial descriptions. He's talking about guys who are 153 00:08:34,960 --> 00:08:37,080 Speaker 1: under five to four and then one over six feet, 154 00:08:37,200 --> 00:08:39,480 Speaker 1: but you're five to seven. Help me out here, Do 155 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: you have any other matching characteristics from the initial police report? 156 00:08:43,520 --> 00:08:44,600 Speaker 4: No, absolutely not. 157 00:08:45,040 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 1: And if Anderson knew it was you, Carlton, why in 158 00:08:48,679 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 1: the world didn't he say so from the very beginning, 159 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:53,760 Speaker 1: right when the police first showed up after the shooting. 160 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:55,960 Speaker 1: How in the world is he not going to say, Yeah, 161 00:08:56,000 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: it was my friend that did this, and here's where 162 00:08:57,880 --> 00:08:59,839 Speaker 1: he lives and here's his phone number. That would have 163 00:08:59,840 --> 00:09:03,200 Speaker 1: been the easiest id ever if you were the guy 164 00:09:03,240 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: who actually did it. 165 00:09:04,800 --> 00:09:06,680 Speaker 5: I think the other thing that flows into that, Jason, 166 00:09:06,720 --> 00:09:09,160 Speaker 5: which has always been a big point to me and 167 00:09:09,440 --> 00:09:12,439 Speaker 5: was a big point to the judge who ultimately exonerated Carlton, 168 00:09:13,280 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 5: is I kind of referred to it as like a 169 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 5: Batman or James Bond scenario where Paul Anderson says that 170 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,760 Speaker 5: these guys came in told him their entire criminal plot, 171 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:24,560 Speaker 5: shot two other guys to pieces that they told him 172 00:09:24,559 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 5: they were going to shoot, and then leave him completely 173 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,600 Speaker 5: unscathed and able to tell this story. 174 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 2: Nobody questioned that from the beginning. 175 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:34,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I was wondering about that too. And then it 176 00:09:34,240 --> 00:09:37,400 Speaker 1: gets weirder, right because with Kenyata drifting in and out 177 00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: of consciousness for several weeks at the hospital, they went 178 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:44,160 Speaker 1: in and did some really crazy stuff in the hospital 179 00:09:44,200 --> 00:09:47,439 Speaker 1: in order to get him to make an identification. Right, 180 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:48,440 Speaker 1: how did that work? 181 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:48,880 Speaker 4: So? 182 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:54,119 Speaker 5: According to Detective Pepe, the lead investigator, when Kenyata awakens 183 00:09:54,160 --> 00:09:56,920 Speaker 5: from this coma, he goes to visit with him, and 184 00:09:57,000 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 5: he displays a board with letters it because Kenyata is 185 00:10:01,120 --> 00:10:06,240 Speaker 5: supposedly nonverbal, and he has Kenyada supposedly spell out the 186 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,680 Speaker 5: names of the people who shot him, and according to Pepe, 187 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 5: he identifies Carlton, Hollis Laylor by their nicknames, and the 188 00:10:14,360 --> 00:10:17,760 Speaker 5: other two people who by this point, Paul Anderson has 189 00:10:18,000 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 5: identified a pair of brothers named Bigger and Richie. Now, 190 00:10:22,320 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 5: there are a couple problems with this. Number One, there's 191 00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 5: no basis in any police procedure for going and showing 192 00:10:28,679 --> 00:10:33,240 Speaker 5: a nonverbal witness a letter board to identify people. Number two, 193 00:10:33,280 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 5: there's no indication that Kenyada is separated from Paul Anderson 194 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,320 Speaker 5: or other people who could have influenced an identification. There's 195 00:10:40,360 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 5: no indication that another officer is present or involved in 196 00:10:43,880 --> 00:10:48,400 Speaker 5: this procedure. And number three, when Kenyada ultimately testifies at 197 00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,559 Speaker 5: Carlton's trial, he says, I didn't spell out these guys' names. 198 00:10:51,600 --> 00:10:54,200 Speaker 5: I gave three letters. So he's only claiming to have 199 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:58,240 Speaker 5: identified three people during this procedure, and they don't correspond 200 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:01,800 Speaker 5: to the claims that Pepe made of this. When Carlton's 201 00:11:01,800 --> 00:11:06,920 Speaker 5: attorney makes a motion to see what procedures produced identifications 202 00:11:06,960 --> 00:11:11,520 Speaker 5: in this case, the prosecution essentially hides Kenyata's ID. They 203 00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:14,480 Speaker 5: represent that only Paul Anderson has made an idea, and 204 00:11:14,520 --> 00:11:18,160 Speaker 5: because he knows Carlton, there's nothing suggestive in any way, 205 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:21,280 Speaker 5: shape or form. But Carlton's trial attorney's actually saying somebody 206 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:24,280 Speaker 5: in Kenyata's condition could have easily been led to make 207 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 5: a misidentification. And the people's response, which is relied upon 208 00:11:28,480 --> 00:11:31,160 Speaker 5: by a court, is that no, there's no problem because 209 00:11:31,240 --> 00:11:34,280 Speaker 5: the only witness to make an ID knew the defendant. 210 00:11:34,400 --> 00:11:37,960 Speaker 5: So they kind of push forward without any review. These 211 00:11:38,000 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 5: two IDs by these guys who were years later acknowledged 212 00:11:41,400 --> 00:11:43,400 Speaker 5: to be completely incredible and all over the place. 213 00:11:44,160 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, and if I'm hearing you correctly, there was only 214 00:11:46,960 --> 00:11:49,360 Speaker 1: the two of them in the hospital room at the time. Anyway, Right, 215 00:11:49,679 --> 00:11:52,560 Speaker 1: he could have said he identified, you know, Santa Claus 216 00:11:52,800 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: or Helen Keller as the shooter, right, anybody, because it 217 00:11:56,160 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: was just his word. 218 00:11:57,600 --> 00:12:00,559 Speaker 5: And there's an interesting aspect there where he aims that 219 00:12:01,000 --> 00:12:04,800 Speaker 5: Kenyada spelled out the name of Hollis Laylor's girlfriend which 220 00:12:04,920 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 5: he doesn't explain why Kenyada would have found that to 221 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:10,800 Speaker 5: be at all relevant. And the first three letters of 222 00:12:10,840 --> 00:12:13,600 Speaker 5: that name just happened to be the same as Carlton's nickname. 223 00:12:13,840 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 5: So it kind of stinks all around here. 224 00:12:16,880 --> 00:12:19,040 Speaker 1: This is how you sort of rash they were back 225 00:12:19,080 --> 00:12:21,439 Speaker 1: in those days. Right, They didn't even bother to attempt 226 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:25,079 Speaker 1: to pretend to make this sound credible because they knew 227 00:12:25,080 --> 00:12:28,120 Speaker 1: they'd get away with it anyway. Right. Was there any 228 00:12:28,360 --> 00:12:33,640 Speaker 1: other evidence, physical, forensic, or anything tying you to the shooting? 229 00:12:34,360 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 4: Absolutely nothing. 230 00:12:35,880 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 3: During trial they said they'scovered the entire house from top 231 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:41,680 Speaker 3: to bottom, and they found no fingerprints that. 232 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 5: Were usable, no gun, no confession, no physical or biological evidence. 233 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 5: It really just comes down to the word of Jomo 234 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 5: Kenyada and Paul Anderson. 235 00:12:52,679 --> 00:12:56,200 Speaker 1: And then how long were you held before the trial? 236 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 3: The trial took eighteen months before it got there. I 237 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,599 Speaker 3: was in I did and you know, March Ju the system, 238 00:13:02,840 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 3: a female associate of mister Greenberg. She came to represent me. 239 00:13:06,559 --> 00:13:08,439 Speaker 3: She came back, I'm such and such and you're go 240 00:13:08,480 --> 00:13:10,040 Speaker 3: in front of a judge, this is what's going to happen. 241 00:13:10,600 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 3: And I remember selling this woman like what do you 242 00:13:13,120 --> 00:13:15,480 Speaker 3: mean I'm not going to be able to go home today? 243 00:13:15,920 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 3: And she's like, no, this is such a I'm like, listen, 244 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,600 Speaker 3: I'm a working man, I have college, I have a 245 00:13:20,600 --> 00:13:22,439 Speaker 3: girlfriend and the child home, and I'm going And she 246 00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,000 Speaker 3: started writing all this stuff down, and when we went 247 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,400 Speaker 3: in front of a judge, she hammered him exactly with 248 00:13:27,440 --> 00:13:29,480 Speaker 3: all the information I'd just given her a minute ago. 249 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,880 Speaker 3: And the judge granted me bail. Okay, bail said that 250 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 3: one hundred thousand dollars. Bankers gabble and left and she 251 00:13:36,400 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 3: was like, amazing, the judge gave you bail, and you 252 00:13:38,760 --> 00:13:41,040 Speaker 3: know you have a great record. All that, my family 253 00:13:41,080 --> 00:13:43,680 Speaker 3: ran around, they put the house up, and I was 254 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,360 Speaker 3: bailed out and I remained at liberty, going back and 255 00:13:46,400 --> 00:13:51,439 Speaker 3: forth to court for another sixteen seventeen months until certain 256 00:13:51,520 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 3: changes were made in my case. It was a new 257 00:13:53,320 --> 00:13:57,360 Speaker 3: judge and suddenly a new DA When Miss Lemucia came 258 00:13:57,360 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 3: on the case, everything changed. I think on a second 259 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,839 Speaker 3: or so appearance with her, he acts for my bid 260 00:14:02,920 --> 00:14:05,720 Speaker 3: to be revoked. The new judge did it, and you know, 261 00:14:06,040 --> 00:14:08,880 Speaker 3: my life went completely in the toilet from that point on. 262 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:22,920 Speaker 1: This episode is underwritten by AIG, a leading global insurance company, 263 00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,840 Speaker 1: and by Accentsure, a global professional services company with leading 264 00:14:26,880 --> 00:14:30,920 Speaker 1: capabilities in digital, cloud and security. Working to reform the 265 00:14:30,920 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: criminal justice system is a key pillar of the AIG 266 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:36,800 Speaker 1: pro Bono program, which provides free legal services and other 267 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: support to many nonprofit organizations and individuals most in need 268 00:14:41,480 --> 00:14:44,760 Speaker 1: as part of Extensure's commitment to racial and civil justice. 269 00:14:44,920 --> 00:14:49,000 Speaker 1: Accenture's Legal Access Program provides pro bono legal services in 270 00:14:49,080 --> 00:14:53,040 Speaker 1: partnership with more than forty organizations, bringing meaningful change to 271 00:14:53,120 --> 00:15:05,000 Speaker 1: people and communities worldwide. And so we moved the trial 272 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:07,640 Speaker 1: so because of the fact that there was no evidence, 273 00:15:07,720 --> 00:15:11,560 Speaker 1: no actual evidence. The entire case of the state relied 274 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 1: solely on the testimony of Detective Peppy, who we find 275 00:15:14,440 --> 00:15:18,120 Speaker 1: out is totally unreliable. And then, of course the contradictory 276 00:15:18,160 --> 00:15:22,560 Speaker 1: and inconsistent testimonies of two perhaps incentivized, if not at 277 00:15:22,680 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: least coerced witnesses, Anderson and Kenyata, and they each described 278 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,280 Speaker 1: the shooting and the events leading up to it. So 279 00:15:30,800 --> 00:15:36,040 Speaker 1: Anderson's testimony, he said that Carlton Roman, Hollis Laylor, Jomo Kanyada, 280 00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: and Lloyd Witter were at Paul Ederson's house on March fifteen, 281 00:15:39,040 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty nine, the day before the shooting, a quote 282 00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:46,440 Speaker 1: unquote bus occurred after Jomo Kanyada and Lloyd witter took 283 00:15:46,440 --> 00:15:49,880 Speaker 1: a gun from Carlton Roman. Did you ever have a gun? Carlton, 284 00:15:49,920 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: by the way, did you ever own a gun? 285 00:15:51,640 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 4: Absolutely not, No, of course not. 286 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: And now back to Anderson's bogus account again, he said 287 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:01,360 Speaker 1: that day after this alleged bus over a gun that 288 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,640 Speaker 1: you never owned, Jomo Kenyatta and Lloyd Witterer were supposed 289 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:07,440 Speaker 1: to come over to help him, Paul Anderson, I'm talking 290 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 1: about move. But allegedly before they arrived, Carlton Roman, Hollis 291 00:16:11,480 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: Laylor and these two other made up characters Bigger at 292 00:16:15,520 --> 00:16:18,760 Speaker 1: Richie came by handcuffed Anderson and put him in the basement. 293 00:16:19,520 --> 00:16:21,920 Speaker 1: Several hours later, he heard the doorbell and then a 294 00:16:21,960 --> 00:16:25,880 Speaker 1: series of shots. He also testified that he was an architect. 295 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:27,880 Speaker 1: I mean, if you're gonna lie, why not just say 296 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: you're a freaking astronaut. He also testified that he was 297 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:33,600 Speaker 1: not involved with drug dealing, and when it was alleged 298 00:16:33,640 --> 00:16:36,120 Speaker 1: that he Paul Anderson had been shot by the victim 299 00:16:36,200 --> 00:16:38,720 Speaker 1: Lloyd winner just a few months earlier, in November nineteen 300 00:16:38,720 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 1: eighty eight, he denied that he had been shot or 301 00:16:42,280 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 1: treated at a hospital for the shooting. He also refused 302 00:16:45,320 --> 00:16:47,240 Speaker 1: to show the leg where it was alleged that he 303 00:16:47,240 --> 00:16:51,120 Speaker 1: had been shot. So he was an architect, had nothing 304 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,320 Speaker 1: to do with drug dealing or any ill will toward 305 00:16:54,360 --> 00:16:55,440 Speaker 1: the victim in this case. 306 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,840 Speaker 5: What we know now is Paul Anderson's residence was a 307 00:16:58,880 --> 00:17:01,560 Speaker 5: drug house. It was used for drugs and gambling. And 308 00:17:01,600 --> 00:17:05,359 Speaker 5: the underlying thing is that the law enforcement actors involved 309 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 5: in this case had to have known the truth about 310 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:10,199 Speaker 5: Paul Anderson and what he was doing. So to let 311 00:17:10,280 --> 00:17:12,000 Speaker 5: him get on the stand and say, oh, yeah, I'm 312 00:17:12,000 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 5: an architect, I've never been shot, it was just fundamentally unfair. 313 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,439 Speaker 1: Now we get to Kenyata's testimony, so he said that 314 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,560 Speaker 1: the initial March fifteenth argument was about drugs and involves 315 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 1: Carlton Roman, Hollis Laylor, and Lloyd Witter, not a gun 316 00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:29,960 Speaker 1: as Paul Anderson said. According to Kenyatta, he and Lloyd 317 00:17:29,960 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: went back to Anderson's house on March sixteenth, and when 318 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:35,560 Speaker 1: they walked into the house, the door shut quickly behind them, 319 00:17:35,600 --> 00:17:39,159 Speaker 1: followed by gunshots, and he allegedly saw Hollis Laylor and 320 00:17:39,200 --> 00:17:42,960 Speaker 1: Carlton Roman shooting Lloyd Witter. When he tried to run away, 321 00:17:43,040 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: Carlton Roman allegedly shot him on the stairs. On direct examination, 322 00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:51,119 Speaker 1: Kenyada testified that his criminal record consisted of a single 323 00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:54,960 Speaker 1: conviction for reckless driving and that he was not involved 324 00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:58,520 Speaker 1: in dealing drugs. He was recalled to the stand after 325 00:17:58,560 --> 00:18:01,720 Speaker 1: Carlton's attorneys showed events of him pleading guilty to attempted 326 00:18:01,760 --> 00:18:04,639 Speaker 1: possession of a weapon after being charged with attempted murder. 327 00:18:04,960 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: So not only does he lie on the stand, but 328 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 1: the two lying liars who lied don't match up with 329 00:18:10,880 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 1: each other. Not surprising, and they both just directly lied 330 00:18:14,840 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: about their own backgrounds and ways that were provably false 331 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:21,520 Speaker 1: and in this case were in fact proven false. And Carlton, 332 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:23,159 Speaker 1: I have to ask you before we even get to 333 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: Peppy's testimony. You lived through this, right, I mean, what 334 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:28,680 Speaker 1: were you thinking at that time? 335 00:18:29,200 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 4: Well? I was so stupid. I was just so naive. 336 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 3: I still expected Kenyada to come in there and say, no, 337 00:18:36,640 --> 00:18:37,400 Speaker 3: it's not this guy. 338 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:38,080 Speaker 4: He wasn't there. 339 00:18:38,240 --> 00:18:40,119 Speaker 3: So I was sitting there listening to this guy talking 340 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,399 Speaker 3: about how I shot him and all this other stuff, 341 00:18:43,440 --> 00:18:45,440 Speaker 3: and I was like, I'm sitting there with my mouth 342 00:18:45,440 --> 00:18:47,639 Speaker 3: hanging out. I remember at one point turning around to 343 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,400 Speaker 3: look at my mom, and my grandmother was there. They 344 00:18:50,400 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 3: were also sitting there with their mouths hanging out. I 345 00:18:52,320 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 3: couldn't believe he was actually saying any of this stuff. 346 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,199 Speaker 3: I'm sitting there like a train hit me listening to 347 00:18:57,240 --> 00:18:57,719 Speaker 3: this stuff. 348 00:18:58,520 --> 00:19:00,520 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, you must have felt like you just 349 00:19:00,560 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 1: want to scream out and say, wait a minute, that's 350 00:19:03,200 --> 00:19:04,040 Speaker 1: not true, right. 351 00:19:04,560 --> 00:19:06,960 Speaker 3: I wanted to do that, and I made several attempts 352 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:08,720 Speaker 3: on mister Greenberg. He had a hand on my knee 353 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 3: under the table and he kept squeezing my knee. Just relaxed, 354 00:19:11,400 --> 00:19:14,200 Speaker 3: don't worry, take it easy, don't make a scene. 355 00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:14,480 Speaker 4: In the court. 356 00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:16,000 Speaker 3: It's not like I was going to turn the table 357 00:19:16,040 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 3: over or anything. But I wanted to really like stand 358 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:20,639 Speaker 3: up and scream at this do like you're lying. You 359 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:23,159 Speaker 3: understand what I'm saying. And I've always regretted that I 360 00:19:23,200 --> 00:19:24,240 Speaker 3: listened to my attorney. 361 00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:27,479 Speaker 1: From what I read in the research, there was very 362 00:19:27,520 --> 00:19:30,880 Speaker 1: little defense to speak of. James, Can you talk about 363 00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:33,639 Speaker 1: what did this guy do wrong? And what did he 364 00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:36,119 Speaker 1: leave out and how did he manage to blow what 365 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:37,560 Speaker 1: should have been an easy win. 366 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:40,199 Speaker 5: We only have one podcast, so I can't really go 367 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:44,240 Speaker 5: through everything he did wrong. Carlton's attorney had in alibi 368 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,800 Speaker 5: that Carlton provided to him. He had alibi witnesses that 369 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 5: supported that Carlton was nowhere near Paul Anderson's house on 370 00:19:50,080 --> 00:19:53,199 Speaker 5: the day of the shootings. Carlton testified in his own defense. 371 00:19:53,440 --> 00:19:57,160 Speaker 5: His testimony was coherent with his alibi witnesses. Mister Greenberg, 372 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 5: the trial attorney, called some of them, but then he 373 00:20:00,520 --> 00:20:04,879 Speaker 5: permitted so much of this false insinuation by the prosecution 374 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:07,919 Speaker 5: that Carlton was a drug dealer. One example of this 375 00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 5: is that Carlton had a car that his mother had 376 00:20:11,119 --> 00:20:14,120 Speaker 5: put the down payment on, and all mister Greenberg would 377 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 5: have needed to do is bring in the financing agreement 378 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:20,000 Speaker 5: for that car, which was a fairly easy thing to 379 00:20:20,040 --> 00:20:22,960 Speaker 5: do to show that this wasn't the product of drug money. 380 00:20:23,280 --> 00:20:25,640 Speaker 5: It was a car that was financed by his mother. 381 00:20:26,119 --> 00:20:28,800 Speaker 5: And instead, because he didn't do that, the prosecutor was 382 00:20:28,840 --> 00:20:31,840 Speaker 5: able to make it seem as if, look, this is 383 00:20:31,840 --> 00:20:34,960 Speaker 5: a drug dealer who's buying new cars and living high 384 00:20:35,000 --> 00:20:38,960 Speaker 5: on drug money. But mister Greenberg just didn't rise to 385 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:43,200 Speaker 5: the occasion in response to these bogus allegations by the prosecution. 386 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,240 Speaker 5: There were so many opportunities where he just showed that 387 00:20:46,280 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 5: he had not been engaged in the case. And maybe 388 00:20:48,280 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 5: that's because in the time between the shootings and the trial, 389 00:20:51,640 --> 00:20:53,840 Speaker 5: it didn't seem like Paul Anderson was actually going to 390 00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:55,840 Speaker 5: come back from Jamaica to testify. He had fled to 391 00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:58,960 Speaker 5: Jamaica after the grand jury, and from what I gather 392 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 5: from the transcripts, I think think Greenberg thought this was 393 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 5: going to be dismissed. But you don't not prepare based 394 00:21:04,320 --> 00:21:07,000 Speaker 5: on that. You've still got a client on trial for murder. 395 00:21:07,280 --> 00:21:08,640 Speaker 5: You've got to be ready to defend them. 396 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,479 Speaker 1: And so with the fact that these lies were allowed 397 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: to be foisted on the jury and that your own 398 00:21:17,000 --> 00:21:20,919 Speaker 1: team didn't really do much of anything to help you, 399 00:21:21,200 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 1: the results were predictable and ultimately you were convicted of 400 00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:28,360 Speaker 1: second degree murder as well as other counts and sentenced 401 00:21:28,359 --> 00:21:32,160 Speaker 1: to forty three and a half years in prison. Can 402 00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:35,120 Speaker 1: you describe what you were feeling in that moment. 403 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,680 Speaker 3: They said guilty and I just fell into a black 404 00:21:38,720 --> 00:21:41,879 Speaker 3: hole like I couldn't think. I don't remember was in 405 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,119 Speaker 3: the court. I don't remember even if I looked around 406 00:21:44,119 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 3: at anybody. Everything that's closed in at me at once, 407 00:21:47,320 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 3: and like I was just dragged into a black hole. 408 00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:51,320 Speaker 4: I couldn't think. I was a complete wreck. 409 00:21:51,920 --> 00:21:54,320 Speaker 3: It was like the worst thing in the world that 410 00:21:54,359 --> 00:22:12,719 Speaker 3: could happen to anybody. The thing that never left me 411 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:15,800 Speaker 3: was like, I did not do this, and I'm going 412 00:22:15,880 --> 00:22:19,320 Speaker 3: to have to prove that to everybody. So I never 413 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,399 Speaker 3: lost any of that hope. Over all the years, I 414 00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:27,679 Speaker 3: always knew deep down that some way, somehow I'm getting 415 00:22:27,680 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 3: out of this. You're going to know I did not 416 00:22:29,640 --> 00:22:32,239 Speaker 3: do this. I'm an only child from my mother and 417 00:22:32,880 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 3: I have one daughter now, and those are the most 418 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,480 Speaker 3: two important people for me in the world. And I 419 00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,679 Speaker 3: knew if I broke what it would do to my 420 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:44,639 Speaker 3: mom it would destroy her completely. I really felt that 421 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:46,480 Speaker 3: that hanger that this had happened to me, and that 422 00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:49,720 Speaker 3: I'm dragging my mother right along with me through all 423 00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:50,399 Speaker 3: of this stuff. 424 00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:54,119 Speaker 4: So I could not stop, and I never did. 425 00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: No, you did not. And facing denial after denial from 426 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:02,679 Speaker 1: the courts and vicious opposition from Richard Brown's DA office, 427 00:23:02,680 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 1: in Queen's Justice did not look like it must have 428 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:11,119 Speaker 1: looked like a very distant possibility, but you just didn't quit. So, James, 429 00:23:11,119 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: when did you get involved in how does the situation 430 00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:16,560 Speaker 1: finally get to where we are now? And how did 431 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:19,640 Speaker 1: the Queen's District Attorney's race play a role in all 432 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 1: of that. 433 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:25,280 Speaker 5: In twenty fifteen, the Queen's Day's Office certifies Carlton's file 434 00:23:25,560 --> 00:23:29,040 Speaker 5: as completely missing. The prosecution file for his case is gone. 435 00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 5: And this is although since his conviction in nineteen ninety, 436 00:23:32,040 --> 00:23:35,239 Speaker 5: Carlton had been litigating his conviction. I come in in 437 00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:38,680 Speaker 5: twenty seventeen as co counsel for another attorney who had 438 00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 5: been working on Carlton's case, and we put in a 439 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,840 Speaker 5: motion based on some material that we felt was newly 440 00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:48,360 Speaker 5: discovered from the Hollas Lalor file, and we were unsuccessful 441 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,240 Speaker 5: in that motion. It was denied in twenty nineteen. A 442 00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 5: lot of this is because they could kind of argue 443 00:23:53,880 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 5: whatever they wanted in the absence of a prosecution file. 444 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:59,080 Speaker 5: There's no reference point for saying this is what occurred 445 00:23:59,160 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 5: or this is what was said, because all of the 446 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:03,919 Speaker 5: material was purportedly lost. The attorney that I had been 447 00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:07,399 Speaker 5: working with left the case and Carlton asked me if 448 00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 5: I would stay on as lead counselor, and I said sure, 449 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:14,000 Speaker 5: And we sent an investigator to Jamaica to locate Paul 450 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 5: Anderson because we said, look, there's not a lot of 451 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,840 Speaker 5: moving parts in this case. And in twenty nineteen we 452 00:24:19,920 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 5: went down and spoke with Paul Anderson and he recanted 453 00:24:24,600 --> 00:24:28,280 Speaker 5: in an affidavit and on tape. And as you alluded 454 00:24:28,320 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 5: to Jason, there was a race for Queen's DA. Richard 455 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 5: Brown had been there for years. His office had steadfastly 456 00:24:36,240 --> 00:24:39,000 Speaker 5: opposed any attempt by Carlton to try and get a 457 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:39,959 Speaker 5: review of this evidence. 458 00:24:40,000 --> 00:24:42,400 Speaker 2: Carlton had never had a hearing on any of his motions. 459 00:24:42,440 --> 00:24:45,600 Speaker 5: And we brought the recantation of Paul Anderson to the 460 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,680 Speaker 5: new district attorney who had been elected, Melinda Katz her 461 00:24:48,880 --> 00:24:52,280 Speaker 5: newly formed Conviction Integrity Unit, and they agreed to a 462 00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:56,960 Speaker 5: reinvestigation of this case, and ultimately what they found and 463 00:24:57,000 --> 00:24:59,639 Speaker 5: what we put forward made them agree that Carlton should 464 00:24:59,640 --> 00:25:01,960 Speaker 5: no longer in prison, that this conviction should be vacated. 465 00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,119 Speaker 1: So what were the major points that ultimately tipped the 466 00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: scales of justice back to where they should have been 467 00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:10,119 Speaker 1: in the first place. 468 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:15,199 Speaker 5: So, for one, it's Paul Anderson unsurprisingly comes forward and 469 00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:18,840 Speaker 5: acknowledges that his story was bs and he knew that 470 00:25:18,880 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 5: the cops were looking at his house, which belonged to 471 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 5: his sister, and that they knew that there was a 472 00:25:23,800 --> 00:25:26,200 Speaker 5: legal activity going on there, that there was a drug 473 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,879 Speaker 5: operation running out of there which was headed up by 474 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:32,359 Speaker 5: Jomo Kenyata. And we also learned that Jomo Kenyatta was 475 00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,520 Speaker 5: operating under we don't know how many different aliases, but 476 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 5: other than the crimes that were revealed at trial, he 477 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:42,119 Speaker 5: was wanted for at least one murder that's still a 478 00:25:42,160 --> 00:25:45,080 Speaker 5: cold case in Queen's He was a heavy drug dealer, 479 00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:48,399 Speaker 5: His brother was a drug dealer. Essentially, there was motive 480 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,960 Speaker 5: for many other people other than Carlton, who had no 481 00:25:51,040 --> 00:25:53,120 Speaker 5: criminal record, to have committed this crime. 482 00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,360 Speaker 1: Including even the state's main witness, Paul Anderson, who, according 483 00:25:56,400 --> 00:25:59,480 Speaker 1: to new eyewitnesses, had survived being shot by the victim 484 00:25:59,520 --> 00:26:03,360 Speaker 1: in this case, Lloyd Witter. In November of nineteen eighty eight. 485 00:26:03,440 --> 00:26:05,800 Speaker 5: A conviction integrity unit did a number of interviews with 486 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 5: Carlton and his alibi witnesses, and those essentially corroborated the 487 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 5: alibi that was or should have been presented at trial, 488 00:26:12,480 --> 00:26:17,400 Speaker 5: and interviews with Andrea Witter and others demonstrate that Detective 489 00:26:17,400 --> 00:26:21,679 Speaker 5: Pepe was unreliable to say the least. Detective Pepe fabricated 490 00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 5: a visa to bring Paul Anderson back from Jamaica to 491 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,520 Speaker 5: testify at Carlton's trial. The fact that he's willing to 492 00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:32,399 Speaker 5: break federal law fabricate an official document to push forward 493 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 5: this case. Where does that end? Does that end with 494 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 5: fabricating witness statements? You have to take a hard look 495 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:39,840 Speaker 5: at that this is the guy that pushes forth the 496 00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:42,720 Speaker 5: evidence in this case. Ultimately, what they come down to 497 00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,719 Speaker 5: is that the original descriptions from Paul Anderson that did 498 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:50,000 Speaker 5: not match Carlton Roman are nowhere in the transcript, and 499 00:26:50,160 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 5: that new evidence completely and totally undermines the two witnesses, 500 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 5: Paul Anderson and Jomo Kenyatta, whose testimony is used to 501 00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:58,320 Speaker 5: convict him. 502 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: So now you're still in at this point, Carlton. You've 503 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: been through everything at this point, and you've been through 504 00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 1: every heartbreak and disappointment, But are you now feeling like 505 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:10,080 Speaker 1: there really is finally light at the end of this 506 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:10,880 Speaker 1: horrible tunnel. 507 00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:14,639 Speaker 3: Yes, I realized then that this was the closest I've 508 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,200 Speaker 3: come to getting the truth revealed and my freedom back. 509 00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,360 Speaker 3: I've been to the Appellate Division, I've tried to, been 510 00:27:20,359 --> 00:27:22,920 Speaker 3: to the Court of Appeals, as I did Federal Aid. 511 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:27,239 Speaker 3: I've done everything, and everywhere that I went it was 512 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 3: just a consistent slam in the face, deny, deny, deny, deny, deny. It, 513 00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,760 Speaker 3: like James correctly said, despite all the craziness you're seeing 514 00:27:35,800 --> 00:27:38,199 Speaker 3: in my case, no judge that actually looked at it 515 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:40,159 Speaker 3: and seeing fit to at least grant me a hearing. 516 00:27:40,480 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 3: So nobody wanted to hear anything at all from me. 517 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:45,640 Speaker 3: I just kept going back like a boxer getting punched 518 00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:47,720 Speaker 3: in the face every time, and just kept going back. 519 00:27:48,320 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 3: But when this was happening now, it kind of felt different. 520 00:27:51,160 --> 00:27:54,880 Speaker 3: It felt different, mainly because at the DA's office there 521 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,280 Speaker 3: were different people there and it seemed like they were serious. 522 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,120 Speaker 3: There was actually new people here who might be receptive 523 00:28:01,320 --> 00:28:02,760 Speaker 3: to correct in what had happened to me. 524 00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:08,359 Speaker 1: So finally, August ninth, twenty twenty one, the Queen's District 525 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: Attorney and you James, filed the joint motion asking the 526 00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:15,600 Speaker 1: Court to vacate Carlton Romans convictions. In that affirmation, the 527 00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,320 Speaker 1: District Attorney's office said, quote, it had concluded that three 528 00:28:19,400 --> 00:28:22,360 Speaker 1: witnesses and the facts undermining the credibility of the key 529 00:28:22,480 --> 00:28:26,560 Speaker 1: trial witnesses Anderson and Kenyata could not have been discovered 530 00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,720 Speaker 1: in the context of your trial, Carlton, with the exercise 531 00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:33,359 Speaker 1: of due diligence, and are of such character that they 532 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:35,840 Speaker 1: would have probably led to a verdict more favorable to 533 00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:40,400 Speaker 1: the defendant. So on August ninth, twenty twenty one, Justice 534 00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:44,080 Speaker 1: Michelle Johnson of Queen's County Supreme Court granted the motion 535 00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: and dismissed the charges against you and Dia. Melinda Katz said, 536 00:28:47,800 --> 00:28:49,959 Speaker 1: this is a quote. We are not so arrogant to 537 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:54,360 Speaker 1: think that the system doesn't make mistakes. Powerful words. She 538 00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:56,760 Speaker 1: went on to say, when we find miscaracters of justice, 539 00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:58,920 Speaker 1: we do everything in our power to correct them quickly. 540 00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,040 Speaker 1: And into the daily news, it's quoted you, carl that 541 00:29:03,080 --> 00:29:05,720 Speaker 1: I was saying right outside the courtroom. I'm not technically 542 00:29:05,760 --> 00:29:07,719 Speaker 1: a shy person. I've nothing prepared to say to you all, 543 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:10,640 Speaker 1: but let me say one thing. The justice system everybody 544 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,280 Speaker 1: knows is broken. I've read a thousand reports that say that, 545 00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: but words alone aren't going to get that fixed. You 546 00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 1: all have a part to play in this also. But 547 00:29:19,040 --> 00:29:21,520 Speaker 1: I'm here now. But there's a lot of people in 548 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 1: there who need your attention. Now. There's people in there 549 00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,640 Speaker 1: who have been fighting for justice longer than I have end. Quote, 550 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:29,120 Speaker 1: what a fucking thing. By the way, here, you are 551 00:29:29,400 --> 00:29:32,800 Speaker 1: just getting out of this thirty two year ordeal that's 552 00:29:32,800 --> 00:29:35,560 Speaker 1: something out of a Greek tragedy or something, and the 553 00:29:35,600 --> 00:29:39,160 Speaker 1: first thing you're doing is thinking about other people. I mean, 554 00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:41,800 Speaker 1: who are you, dude? Who are you? 555 00:29:42,440 --> 00:29:45,320 Speaker 3: I've heard that so much different times. A lot of 556 00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,240 Speaker 3: it is a blurnout too. I have to watch the 557 00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:50,240 Speaker 3: thing to digest fully the entire moment. It was just 558 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 3: so overwhelming for me. I had a conversation with somebody 559 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:55,040 Speaker 3: that was locked in sing saying that I knew for 560 00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,240 Speaker 3: a long time, you know, made a secure as phone 561 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:59,479 Speaker 3: call and I was talking to him and he said, Man, 562 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 3: I just want to to talk to you about one thing, 563 00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:03,840 Speaker 3: and it's what you said when you came out of 564 00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,960 Speaker 3: the court. He said, there's dozens of people here who 565 00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:11,120 Speaker 3: don't know you, and they're just so happy you said that. 566 00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 3: They're praising you and all this other stuff. I use 567 00:30:13,840 --> 00:30:16,880 Speaker 3: this reference. It's like if you're in the desert and 568 00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 3: you're dying of thirst and there's while animals circling you, 569 00:30:20,400 --> 00:30:22,960 Speaker 3: and you're there with a bunch of people and some 570 00:30:23,040 --> 00:30:26,880 Speaker 3: are miraculously you stumble and make it out. The first 571 00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 3: thing and a decent human being should do is say, wait, 572 00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 3: there's more people in there that needs help. So that's 573 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,080 Speaker 3: the point of view where I was coming from. And 574 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 3: you know, it's a day for justice and all that, 575 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,240 Speaker 3: but we can't forget all the people in there who 576 00:30:42,480 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 3: going to the very same thing. 577 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:47,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, it just speaks a lot to your character. I'm 578 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,240 Speaker 1: sure there's a lot of people listening now. You're inspiring 579 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:53,520 Speaker 1: them to want to take action to make a difference, 580 00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:56,520 Speaker 1: and you're inspiring me to want to do more. And 581 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: what would you suggest as a course of action. 582 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 3: The first thing that come to mind for me is 583 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:05,520 Speaker 3: when people wind up in my situation and they finally 584 00:31:05,800 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 3: get exonerated, something needs to be done to reintegrate them 585 00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,920 Speaker 3: into a society. For instance, I've lost all my paperwork. 586 00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:16,760 Speaker 3: I have no idea where my Social Security card is, passport, 587 00:31:17,320 --> 00:31:20,880 Speaker 3: my immigration papers, my driver's license. All that stuff has gone. 588 00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:24,480 Speaker 3: I have to go to hell just to get a 589 00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,400 Speaker 3: learners permit on the way to get a driver's license. 590 00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:29,959 Speaker 3: I went to the DMV and I had nothing to 591 00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,200 Speaker 3: show them that would make them allow me to take 592 00:31:33,520 --> 00:31:36,320 Speaker 3: the written tests to start the old process over. The 593 00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:39,959 Speaker 3: thing that helped me most get that accomplished was the 594 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:42,120 Speaker 3: front page of the Daily News with my picture on 595 00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:45,040 Speaker 3: the cover saying I was exonerated after thirty two years. 596 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 3: I know right now off the top of my head 597 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,080 Speaker 3: three other exonerated people who's out here and we're in 598 00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:53,240 Speaker 3: regular touch, and all of us had the same problem. 599 00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,880 Speaker 3: You can't go to a bank and establish an account 600 00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:58,040 Speaker 3: because when you go there, dear first thing, you're asking 601 00:31:58,040 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 3: you for his ID. I remember pulling out out the 602 00:32:00,400 --> 00:32:03,440 Speaker 3: last jlight D they gave me and it was told like, well, 603 00:32:03,600 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 3: that's absolutely useless. I went to try to get my 604 00:32:06,280 --> 00:32:08,840 Speaker 3: Social Security card. Rea shirt, well you need a driver's 605 00:32:08,920 --> 00:32:10,520 Speaker 3: license and you need a pass, but I don't have 606 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,560 Speaker 3: any of those things. And when I go to another office, 607 00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:15,240 Speaker 3: they asks me for my Social Security card. So it's 608 00:32:15,240 --> 00:32:17,640 Speaker 3: like this catch twenty two thing happening, and something needs 609 00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 3: to be done about. 610 00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: That now we have. But I always referred to as 611 00:32:22,440 --> 00:32:25,959 Speaker 1: my favorite part of the show, and everybody who's listening 612 00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:28,080 Speaker 1: knows what I'm talking about because you hear me say 613 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,520 Speaker 1: it every week. But this is the part of the 614 00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:33,200 Speaker 1: show called closing arguments, and it works like this. First 615 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:37,200 Speaker 1: of all, I thank each of you again, James Henning 616 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: for the great work you've done for mister Roman and 617 00:32:39,960 --> 00:32:42,600 Speaker 1: on behalf of other clients. Thank you for that, and 618 00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,520 Speaker 1: thank you for taking your time to be on the 619 00:32:44,520 --> 00:32:45,400 Speaker 1: show with us today. 620 00:32:45,600 --> 00:32:48,400 Speaker 2: Thanks for having us Jason, what you're doing means a lot. 621 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: And of course same for you, Carlton again, thank you 622 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,040 Speaker 1: so much for just being yourself and inspiring everybody to 623 00:32:55,120 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: march forward and try to pick change. And now the 624 00:32:58,120 --> 00:33:01,720 Speaker 1: closing arguments works like this. I turned my microphone off, 625 00:33:02,040 --> 00:33:04,680 Speaker 1: I leave yours on. James, You're going to go first, 626 00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:06,880 Speaker 1: if that's okay, and save the best for last. With 627 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,800 Speaker 1: all due respect to you, and all you have to 628 00:33:09,840 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: do now is say whatever you want, anything that we 629 00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,440 Speaker 1: may have left out or anything that's left unsaid. This 630 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,040 Speaker 1: is closing arguments. James Henning, you go drop the mic, 631 00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 1: pass it off to Carlton, and that's how we'll close 632 00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:22,920 Speaker 1: the show. 633 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,240 Speaker 5: I think basically what I would say is that Carlton's case, 634 00:33:26,760 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 5: the cliche never give up gets thrown around a lot. 635 00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:34,120 Speaker 5: There was not a tremendous amount of hope after his 636 00:33:34,320 --> 00:33:38,280 Speaker 5: entire file was lost, but he always kept fighting, and 637 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 5: I think that's the spirit that this story should inspire 638 00:33:41,880 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 5: in people. The people who actually did this were allowed 639 00:33:45,000 --> 00:33:49,040 Speaker 5: to go free and potentially take other lives, but Carlton 640 00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,760 Speaker 5: absolutely refused to let his life be taken, and I 641 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,640 Speaker 5: think that should be a message to everybody in whatever 642 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,400 Speaker 5: situation they're in. This guy was in the darkest of 643 00:33:58,480 --> 00:34:02,440 Speaker 5: places and he just never gave up. And it's a 644 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:05,080 Speaker 5: beautiful thing to see because he's a truly remarkable person. 645 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 2: And I'm very proud. 646 00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:09,799 Speaker 5: To have played whatever role I did in helping bring 647 00:34:09,880 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 5: him back to society because he's an important guide and 648 00:34:13,320 --> 00:34:14,080 Speaker 5: you know, he's great. 649 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 2: So that's what I'll say, and I'll pass on to him. 650 00:34:17,600 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 3: Hold public officials accountable, hold the district attorney and the 651 00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 3: idea is accountable, and even more important, all the judges accountable. 652 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,720 Speaker 3: People tend to forget how much power a judge as 653 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:33,360 Speaker 3: and how much thing a judge can look away from 654 00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 3: from my point of view, if my case atlanted in 655 00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:40,240 Speaker 3: front of a fear judge, even say twenty five years ago, 656 00:34:40,640 --> 00:34:43,600 Speaker 3: this should have been over. Then judges can be allowed 657 00:34:43,640 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 3: to just ignore cries of Pinnis and people because they 658 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,960 Speaker 3: just don't feel like reviewing it or granting a hearing 659 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:54,759 Speaker 3: or looking further into what happened or whatever. So there 660 00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:57,920 Speaker 3: needs to be a spotlight on what judges are doing, 661 00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,680 Speaker 3: how they're coming to the conclusions that they're coming to, 662 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 3: and when they're shirking your duties. Man, they got to 663 00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:05,759 Speaker 3: get out of there. And it's the same thing with 664 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,080 Speaker 3: the district attorney's offices. And again, none of that stuff 665 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:14,120 Speaker 3: is secret stuff. Start calling pesterin, hammering whoever it is 666 00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:17,959 Speaker 3: that's in the points of authority that's responsible for what's 667 00:35:18,000 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 3: going on in these courtrooms. When they can't live up 668 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:23,239 Speaker 3: to the holtes they take, get them out of there, 669 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:27,280 Speaker 3: hold public officials accountable, make them do better. 670 00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:40,040 Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. Please support your 671 00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:42,799 Speaker 1: local innocence organizations and go to the links in our 672 00:35:42,840 --> 00:35:45,279 Speaker 1: bio to see how you can help. I'd like to 673 00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:49,320 Speaker 1: thank our production team, Connor Hall, Justin Golden, Jeff Cliburn 674 00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:52,920 Speaker 1: and Kevin Wadis. The music on the show, as always, 675 00:35:53,080 --> 00:35:56,880 Speaker 1: is by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be 676 00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,040 Speaker 1: sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction, on 677 00:36:00,080 --> 00:36:04,719 Speaker 1: Twitter at wrong Conviction, and on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction Podcast. 678 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction is a production of Lava for Good Podcasts 679 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:12,240 Speaker 1: in association with Signal Company Number one