WEBVTT - When It Comes to Listings, London Is Losing Its Magic 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:02.560 So I would say that if a company decides it's 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:04.440 not going to list in New York for whatever reason, 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:06.640 then in the past London was often with the default 0:00:06.720 --> 0:00:08.400 choice if they were thinking about this. In Europe, we 0:00:08.440 --> 0:00:24.920 are not necessarily anymore. Listings in the UK are actually 0:00:24.920 --> 0:00:27.960 at the lowest in more than a decade. British startups 0:00:27.960 --> 0:00:30.360 are flocking to the deeper pockets found in New York 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:33.199 and Europe, and a string of high profile flops over 0:00:33.200 --> 0:00:36.040 the past two years has also done serious damage to 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:43.440 investor confidence in London IPOs. I'm Francine Law in London 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:46.959 Studio and this is in the City, Bloomberg's podcast connecting 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:49.040 you to the stories at the heart of the City 0:00:49.040 --> 0:00:52.040 of London. This week we explore a question facing the 0:00:52.080 --> 0:00:55.800 Square mile. Can it be saved? Well? Mark Austin thinks so. 0:00:55.920 --> 0:00:58.640 He's the latest person charged with sprucing up the UK's 0:00:58.680 --> 0:01:01.840 listing rules and helping this maintain its position as one 0:01:01.840 --> 0:01:04.800 of the world's leading financial centers, and he shares his 0:01:04.920 --> 0:01:07.000 plans with us a little bit later in the show. 0:01:07.400 --> 0:01:11.200 But first, Bloomberg editor kat Van Hoof explains why a 0:01:11.200 --> 0:01:14.080 big chunk of the IPL market share disappeared from London 0:01:14.120 --> 0:01:17.679 post Brexit, and my government efforts to attract more startups 0:01:17.840 --> 0:01:20.000 have not paid off yet. Cat, thank you so much 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:21.880 for joining us. What a great, great pleasure to have 0:01:21.920 --> 0:01:24.000 you here in the studio. So what exactly is happening 0:01:24.000 --> 0:01:26.320 in terms of real listings in London? Is it better 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:29.240 or worse? So essentially, when you look at what's going 0:01:29.280 --> 0:01:32.399 on in the UK, especially since Brexit, you can't talk 0:01:32.440 --> 0:01:34.479 about I p o s without using the B word. 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:37.640 So since the vote in twenty sixteen, we've definitely seen 0:01:37.720 --> 0:01:39.640 a slowdown in the number of I p o s 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:41.440 that have come to market. I think there was a 0:01:41.440 --> 0:01:44.320 bit of hope late twenty twenty when they got the 0:01:44.360 --> 0:01:46.479 Brexit deal that you know, there would be some new 0:01:46.800 --> 0:01:49.720 stuff coming through, and it did, but that's sort of 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:53.160 your Fouria very quickly broke apart when a few of 0:01:53.160 --> 0:01:56.240 these listings didn't really do very well. So we had 0:01:56.280 --> 0:01:59.720 some solids like Dr Martin's listing early on in the 0:01:59.800 --> 0:02:02.280 year here and then we had deliver rou you know, 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:05.800 lots of fanfile, lots of sort of chat beforehand about 0:02:05.920 --> 0:02:09.320 governance issues and about you know, sort of the gig economy, 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:12.560 workers and the rights of these workers, etcetera. But still 0:02:12.560 --> 0:02:15.000 people are very excited. All eyes were on this listing 0:02:15.040 --> 0:02:18.040 and then it's just absolutely tanked from minute one and 0:02:18.120 --> 0:02:21.120 never really recovered about as well received as a cult. 0:02:21.200 --> 0:02:25.800 Takeaway delivery shares made their market debut Wednesday, and probably 0:02:25.840 --> 0:02:29.639 Plugs Delivery is actually halted now due to volatility, as 0:02:29.639 --> 0:02:31.440 it fell by twenty it felt by more than that 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:34.600 is going on shares of the liver Roo. It's been 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:37.880 kind of a strange offering here and certainly doesn't bode 0:02:37.880 --> 0:02:40.200 well I would think for you know, for the LC 0:02:40.320 --> 0:02:43.720 going forward. Think it's down from the I p O price, 0:02:43.919 --> 0:02:47.000 So that really put a dent in in the enthusiasm 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:49.519 for London ipo. Is it London I p O S 0:02:49.639 --> 0:02:51.080 or is it I pos in general? Is there a 0:02:51.120 --> 0:02:55.080 problem with the attractiveness of the UK because of the 0:02:55.080 --> 0:02:57.640 B word? When you look over the six years since 0:02:57.680 --> 0:03:00.720 the vote, the share of IPOs in Europe that have 0:03:00.880 --> 0:03:04.080 happened in London has diminished. So it used to be 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:07.800 about fort IPOs in Europe were done in London. Since Brexit, 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:10.800 London has hosted about thirty. So it's definitely sort of 0:03:10.800 --> 0:03:13.160 a bit of a step back, and I also think 0:03:13.160 --> 0:03:16.600 it's sort of masking a greater problem where everybody else 0:03:16.680 --> 0:03:19.959 is also dealing with pandemic issues. Still, everybody's dealing with 0:03:20.080 --> 0:03:23.200 a big rotation in stock markets away from growth companies. 0:03:23.520 --> 0:03:26.040 I pos tend to come from growth companies. But we've 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.079 still seen some big listings from other countries. We've seen 0:03:29.120 --> 0:03:31.440 some in Italy, You've seen some in the Nordics. Germany 0:03:31.520 --> 0:03:35.320 is preparing this massive listing for Porsche. So there is 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:38.400 still activity. It's just we don't really have anything in 0:03:38.480 --> 0:03:43.360 London that's that's feasibly coming anytime soon really, So why 0:03:43.480 --> 0:03:46.080 is that? Because there were fluffs before you mentioned Deliverue, 0:03:46.120 --> 0:03:48.720 So I think it's a it's a big confluence of things. So, 0:03:49.000 --> 0:03:51.880 you know, obviously we have economic slowdown is worse than 0:03:51.920 --> 0:03:54.600 the UK than in many other European countries. You know, 0:03:54.640 --> 0:03:59.120 the forecasts are worse. Definitely, also Brexit related, you've got 0:03:59.160 --> 0:04:02.520 a little bit of overhang from those bad listings from 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:05.920 one sort of left a sour taste. It's not really 0:04:06.000 --> 0:04:08.920 going to make people particularly happy to invest. And then 0:04:08.960 --> 0:04:11.280 on top of all of that, we just don't have 0:04:11.320 --> 0:04:14.000 that critical mass of of these sort of big tech 0:04:14.040 --> 0:04:17.560 companies you know, Boris Johnson's government has been really driving 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:22.159 this charm offensive essentially to get startups and innovative tech 0:04:22.200 --> 0:04:24.920 companies and bring them into London, and you know, there's 0:04:24.920 --> 0:04:28.640 all these sort of big lobby efforts going on. But 0:04:28.720 --> 0:04:30.920 you know, no matter how much you lobby and ask 0:04:31.000 --> 0:04:33.960 companies and give them taxing centers and things like that, 0:04:34.400 --> 0:04:37.400 what really attracts tech companies is a big peer group 0:04:37.600 --> 0:04:39.640 because obviously, in an I p O you have to 0:04:40.160 --> 0:04:42.480 you know, you have to be valued. The market has 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:44.279 to put a value onto you. And if there's no 0:04:45.000 --> 0:04:47.760 other companies to compare yourself to that are listed in 0:04:47.800 --> 0:04:50.039 the market you want to list, that's a problem. And 0:04:50.080 --> 0:04:52.280 if you don't have that peer group, you're also not 0:04:52.320 --> 0:04:56.040 going to have analysts that are very specifically covering a 0:04:56.120 --> 0:04:58.800 particular area, and you're not going to have investors that 0:04:58.800 --> 0:05:02.360 are very comfortable and testing in this particular area. And 0:05:02.400 --> 0:05:05.479 that's very, very important for these tech companies, and we've 0:05:05.520 --> 0:05:08.760 seen that with some of these tech listings in one 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:12.760 like wise like Delivery, that just haven't done very well. 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:15.799 So get Tom McKenzie and I spoke to Julia Hoggett, 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.080 to the chief executive officer of the l a C. 0:05:18.160 --> 0:05:20.919 And she alluded that companies might be biding their time 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:23.200 to list at the best time. I think that's a 0:05:23.240 --> 0:05:26.240 distinction between the preparation activity that companies are doing to 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:29.200 get ready to come to market and the choice they 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:31.680 make about when they do so. The questions to when 0:05:31.760 --> 0:05:34.520 it is partly function of their advice and what they're 0:05:34.520 --> 0:05:36.760 told to do in terms of the optimal valuation. And 0:05:36.800 --> 0:05:39.480 obviously we're seeing a complete shift in the interest rate environment. 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:43.400 We've seen the Russian Ukraine circumstances. There is a global 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:45.600 reset going on which I don't think was anticipated when 0:05:45.600 --> 0:05:47.719 people are looking at the year in December January, and 0:05:47.760 --> 0:05:51.000 that is fracturing into people's timing decisions. So she's pretty optimistic, 0:05:51.080 --> 0:05:54.440 for example, about the UK's follow on issues despite the 0:05:54.520 --> 0:05:57.800 dipping I p o s. Are the fears overblown? There 0:05:57.920 --> 0:06:00.440 is definitely a little bit of a sense of London 0:06:00.520 --> 0:06:03.080 bashing at the moment to a certain degree, and there 0:06:03.160 --> 0:06:07.320 is always that risk of potentially over egging it when 0:06:07.320 --> 0:06:09.640 it comes to all of the sort of negative things 0:06:09.640 --> 0:06:12.440 that are going on. We mustn't forget London is still 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.839 very much the financial center in Europe. It is still 0:06:15.880 --> 0:06:19.080 you know, one bad year, so to say, or worse 0:06:19.200 --> 0:06:22.600 year than others, isn't necessarily going to mean London is over. 0:06:22.839 --> 0:06:26.120 You know, it's not forever, wherever and ever. It's not. 0:06:26.240 --> 0:06:29.479 It's not as simple as that, for sure. But yes, 0:06:29.520 --> 0:06:33.080 there are companies abiding their time. But at the end 0:06:33.120 --> 0:06:35.719 of the day, what that means right now for the 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:38.760 market is that some of these trends that are preventing 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:41.919 companies from coming to market are getting worse in some ways. 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:44.039 You know, people talk about the foot see one hundred 0:06:44.080 --> 0:06:46.680 as a dinosaur in next you know, the UK is 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:50.200 a dinosaur stock market. It's all miners and oil and gas, 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:53.320 and while they've done well this year, it's not generally 0:06:53.400 --> 0:06:56.640 stocks that are future proof. Also, to say that can 0:06:56.720 --> 0:07:00.560 regulation actually gives the lyse a new future. So they've 0:07:00.600 --> 0:07:03.720 been trying, that's for sure. And I do think, you know, 0:07:03.960 --> 0:07:06.760 down the line, some of the changes that are being proposed, 0:07:06.800 --> 0:07:12.120 like allowing founders greater control over their company after it lists, 0:07:12.320 --> 0:07:15.440 things like you know, smaller free floats, you know, just 0:07:15.520 --> 0:07:18.680 making it slightly easier for these high growth, earlier stage 0:07:18.720 --> 0:07:21.640 companies to come to market. That probably will start paying 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:24.200 off in a few years time. But that doesn't really 0:07:24.240 --> 0:07:26.280 help us now. And on top of all of that, 0:07:26.720 --> 0:07:29.400 changing the rules a little bit and tweaking that and 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:31.840 and sort of bringing London more in line with a 0:07:31.920 --> 0:07:35.000 market like New York. That's essentially sort of the gist 0:07:35.040 --> 0:07:37.560 of it. While a step forward in many ways for 0:07:37.640 --> 0:07:40.040 companies looking to list, it's not going to magically create 0:07:40.120 --> 0:07:44.280 this sort of critical massive investors. So yes, it's good 0:07:44.520 --> 0:07:47.960 in some ways, but it's not necessarily going to be 0:07:48.000 --> 0:07:50.720 a silver bullet in anyway. So getting five years from now, 0:07:50.720 --> 0:07:52.760 well you look back at this moment and say, this 0:07:52.880 --> 0:07:55.480 is where or when we realize that this was going 0:07:55.520 --> 0:07:58.720 to be a more regional economy, maybe with more regional 0:07:59.400 --> 0:08:02.120 indicy some and I p o s. I don't even 0:08:02.160 --> 0:08:03.600 know what I'm going to have for dinner. I don't 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:06.840 know what's going to happen in five years time, but 0:08:07.000 --> 0:08:14.400 I always always past. I think we are at a 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:17.640 an important moment in time where there is a danger 0:08:17.680 --> 0:08:20.280 of that things are being done. Whether or not all 0:08:20.320 --> 0:08:22.320 of them are good or are going to end up 0:08:22.320 --> 0:08:25.360 in the way that they have been intended is much 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:28.520 more difficult to predict. But there is definitely a danger, 0:08:28.960 --> 0:08:32.120 more so than probably at any other time in sort 0:08:32.160 --> 0:08:34.280 of modern history for London, where you kind of have 0:08:34.320 --> 0:08:36.200 to look at it and go, okay, we can see 0:08:36.200 --> 0:08:39.360 some of these dynamics, these trends developing and the time 0:08:39.400 --> 0:08:42.160 to do something is now. You also have to keep 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:45.079 in mind this is from the regulators perspective and companies, 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.720 but investors are less enthusiastic about some of these changes. 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:52.680 You know, for them, a London premium listing for decades 0:08:52.720 --> 0:08:56.720 has been the governance gold standard, the biggest investor protections 0:08:56.720 --> 0:08:59.080 in the world, and that's being eroded in a way. 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:01.800 You know, some of these rules are taking away invested 0:09:01.800 --> 0:09:05.000 protections and it does expose people a little bit more. 0:09:05.240 --> 0:09:09.080 There are reasons why these invested protections and these government 0:09:09.160 --> 0:09:11.920 standards have been so high, and if you start eating 0:09:11.960 --> 0:09:15.800 away at these requirements, there will also be some unintended consequence. 0:09:15.920 --> 0:09:24.800 Cat thank you so much. So, now that we have 0:09:24.840 --> 0:09:27.920 a sense of how bad things have gotten, let's turn 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:29.920 to what might be done to ensure that the city 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:33.319 maintains its position as one of the world's leading financial centers. 0:09:33.640 --> 0:09:36.319 Joining us as Mark Austin, a partner at law from 0:09:36.360 --> 0:09:39.160 fresh Field who was also commissioned to lead a government 0:09:39.200 --> 0:09:42.160 review into London's capital markets. Thanks so much for joining 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:43.800 us from What was the most surprising thing you found? 0:09:43.920 --> 0:09:46.640 I mean, I think the most the most surprising good 0:09:46.679 --> 0:09:48.719 thing I found was that there is a real appetite 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:50.600 in the market for reform. I think people get it 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:53.560 in the UK now. I've been a leading financial center 0:09:53.600 --> 0:09:55.720 for a long time, but that is always a process 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:58.559 of as osmosis, is always a process of developing as 0:09:58.600 --> 0:10:01.280 the world develops around you. And all credit frankly to 0:10:01.480 --> 0:10:03.199 the Treasury and the government and to the s c 0:10:03.320 --> 0:10:05.959 A for leaning into this process and being very visionary 0:10:05.960 --> 0:10:08.480 and moving with speed. But we need now, particularly given 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:10.480 we're not in the EU anymore, to think about how 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:13.120 we keep ourselves relevant. We've done it very successfully for 0:10:13.679 --> 0:10:15.520 particularly last couple of decades. We now need to think 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:16.800 about how we do it in the next couple of 0:10:16.800 --> 0:10:19.960 decades in a more competitive global environment. Let's be clear 0:10:20.040 --> 0:10:23.280 enlisting terms capital markets terms, but also where one where 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.000 we are outside the EU, because that does make a difference. 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:30.560 What's the danger if there aren't these reforms going forward? Well, 0:10:30.559 --> 0:10:32.920 the danger is I think that in ten, fifteen and 0:10:32.920 --> 0:10:34.920 twenty years time we'll wake up and realize that we've 0:10:34.920 --> 0:10:38.480 slept walk into becoming a relatively regional, parochial stockage change 0:10:38.480 --> 0:10:42.679 and financial center, which we've got every chance to avoid 0:10:42.679 --> 0:10:45.280 that happening. But we need to have very bold and 0:10:45.320 --> 0:10:48.720 brave conversations and honest conversations about what we need to 0:10:48.760 --> 0:10:51.120 do to try to make sure that doesn't happen. There's 0:10:51.120 --> 0:10:53.200 every chance it won't happen, but we're in a foot 0:10:53.240 --> 0:10:56.040 race with other jurisdictions around the world, not just New York, 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:59.280 but our continental European peers as well as well as 0:10:59.280 --> 0:11:02.080 obviously Asians stock markets, and we need to be very 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:04.760 aware of that and be very visionary and as I say, 0:11:04.800 --> 0:11:06.880 honest in what we need to do to reform ourselves 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:10.679 to keep ourselves relevant. Put it simplistically, do investors or 0:11:10.720 --> 0:11:13.480 do do companies at list just want high valuations and 0:11:13.520 --> 0:11:16.080 easy regulation? They do want that, I mean clearly any 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:19.240 listings are often used as exits or partial exits, so 0:11:19.240 --> 0:11:23.280 evaluation is clearly important, and regulatory friction is clearly relevant 0:11:23.320 --> 0:11:25.840 to people want high standards at the same time, So 0:11:26.120 --> 0:11:28.400 there is a balance to be struck between having a 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:32.960 regulatory system that is pragmatic and flexible and responsive to 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:35.760 the needs of issuers and investors, and yet at the 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:38.040 same time not unjusly so, So I mean part of 0:11:38.080 --> 0:11:39.839 the exercise we're going through in London the moment is 0:11:39.880 --> 0:11:42.800 actually having an honest conversation about what do we really 0:11:42.840 --> 0:11:45.000 need to be competitive for the next twenty years and 0:11:45.080 --> 0:11:48.440 to ensure appropriate consumer protection as well, and so what 0:11:48.480 --> 0:11:50.720 do we need. So we've we've already reformed things like 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.679 free float, We've talked about your class shares, We've made 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:57.280 some amendments around spacts. The SCA is continuing that process 0:11:57.320 --> 0:12:00.680 now and potentially collapsing sim preferring our list sting segments 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.640 down into one single listing segment. That's an ongoing conversation. 0:12:04.200 --> 0:12:06.880 The secondary capital raising process, which is what I've just 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:09.320 been focusing on for the last few months, that needs 0:12:09.320 --> 0:12:11.800 to be made quicker and cheaper and more efficient. And 0:12:11.840 --> 0:12:13.520 I'm pleased to say that my review seems to have 0:12:13.640 --> 0:12:16.040 landed as I intended it to, as received wisdom, by 0:12:16.040 --> 0:12:19.360 which I mean people agree, which is what I was 0:12:19.400 --> 0:12:21.600 trying to do, which is not fair, but then it 0:12:21.640 --> 0:12:24.480 has to be executed on Yeah, it does, but a bit, 0:12:24.520 --> 0:12:26.040 But I mean I I spent an awful lot of 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:27.920 time talking to everybody across the market to make sure 0:12:27.960 --> 0:12:30.640 that it landed like that, and I'm glad that people 0:12:31.120 --> 0:12:32.880 engage with it in the right way because I was 0:12:32.960 --> 0:12:34.760 worried at the staff. I'll be honest that there might 0:12:34.800 --> 0:12:36.560 be a bit of computer says no, or this is 0:12:36.559 --> 0:12:39.640 all too hard, But actually there's a market. The conversation 0:12:39.760 --> 0:12:42.960 has been successfully reframed, I think, to one where just 0:12:43.000 --> 0:12:44.640 because we've done things in a certain way for the 0:12:44.720 --> 0:12:46.640 last twenty years doesn't mean we should necessarily do them 0:12:46.640 --> 0:12:48.880 in the next twenty years. And that doesn't mean, by 0:12:48.920 --> 0:12:50.920 the way, that we should engage in a regulatory race 0:12:50.960 --> 0:12:54.400 to the bottom and give away the reputation we have 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:57.840 for high corporate governance and regulatory standards. Absolutely not. But 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:00.400 it does mean that we should be flexible and pragmatic 0:13:00.440 --> 0:13:02.600 about how we do that, particularly when we set ourselves 0:13:02.640 --> 0:13:06.120 against other listening venues. What are the other strongest listing 0:13:06.200 --> 0:13:08.920 venues out there? New York is obviously the pre eminent one, 0:13:09.000 --> 0:13:11.319 always has been. It's a much bigger market than we are, 0:13:11.600 --> 0:13:15.040 much more liquid, has more companies listed over there, bigger 0:13:15.080 --> 0:13:17.800 in terms of size. We know that, But the I 0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:20.520 would say our main competition these days now we're outside 0:13:20.520 --> 0:13:23.920 that he is actually the continental European venues Amsterdam in particular, 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:27.800 also Paris and Frankfurt, and you see those jurisdictions. They 0:13:27.840 --> 0:13:29.880 realized that too. Only a couple of weeks ago we 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.400 had Germany coming out with some revised proposals around the 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:35.160 future of Funding Act, and that's around making i PA 0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:37.960 is easier, making couple of markets more efficient. The EU 0:13:38.000 --> 0:13:40.439 has come out several times with revisions on IPA rules, 0:13:41.040 --> 0:13:43.760 and France is very active as well, so as the Netherlands. 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:47.280 We have lots of benefits in this jurisdiction times, own language, 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:49.880 rule of law, stable regulatory system. It's a nice place 0:13:49.920 --> 0:13:52.920 to live. But you know, we shouldn't delude ourselves that 0:13:52.960 --> 0:13:55.240 places that Amsterdam have all of those things too, and 0:13:55.320 --> 0:13:58.240 they are hungry, they are competitive. Do people want to 0:13:58.240 --> 0:14:01.079 listen in London because because of the steache because London 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:04.240 was London? Yeah they do, they do, and historically they have. 0:14:04.480 --> 0:14:07.280 But sometimes the question comes up, well, but you know 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:10.640 the other the regulatory friction or the amount of flak 0:14:10.720 --> 0:14:14.640 I might get, or your remuneration policies or investor attitudes. 0:14:15.040 --> 0:14:16.959 Actually it's just an easier life for me to list 0:14:17.000 --> 0:14:19.520 in Amsterdam, for example, because I get more or less 0:14:19.520 --> 0:14:22.440 the same outcome. I think in a globalized world and 0:14:22.520 --> 0:14:26.040 a globalized investor world that we have these days, increasingly 0:14:26.800 --> 0:14:29.600 investors are pretty agnostic about the exchange that they will 0:14:29.640 --> 0:14:32.320 go on. London has an allure, has a historical aluer, 0:14:32.360 --> 0:14:34.520 but I think we shouldn't be under any illusions about 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:36.480 the power that might have going forward if we're not careful. 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:38.400 But if you're telling me that people listen in Amsterdam 0:14:38.440 --> 0:14:41.080 because they have an easier life, they're small. Once they 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:43.440 become big, can they afford to have regulation which has 0:14:43.480 --> 0:14:46.440 maybe seen as more lax in London. Yes, I mean 0:14:46.480 --> 0:14:49.040 it's not it's necessarily lax. They take things on a 0:14:49.080 --> 0:14:51.720 case by case basis and they are pragmatic about it 0:14:51.800 --> 0:14:53.760 and they are flexible. I don't think anyone would say 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:56.320 that the corporate governance standards that they have an Amsterdam 0:14:56.400 --> 0:14:59.880 or any materially deliterious compared to ours in London, or 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:02.360 that they are, in regulatory terms, anymore relaxed. They are 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:04.080 more relaxed and they can afford to be You're right, 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:07.080 because of their size. So they will have to look 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:09.680 at that as they get bigger. But the problem is 0:15:09.720 --> 0:15:11.360 that we go too far the other way. At the moment, 0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:14.560 we have too much architecture around it, which, when compared 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:16.960 with a jurisdiction that has it is taken much more 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:20.440 pragmatic approach of things often can hold us back and 0:15:20.480 --> 0:15:22.400 can shoot us in the foot. And it didn't matter, 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:24.200 It didn't matter when we were the default listing venue. 0:15:24.200 --> 0:15:26.760 But we're not necessarily that anymore. Mark, I mean, is 0:15:26.800 --> 0:15:30.280 there a psychological element too? When you're listening, you also 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:32.720 want to go to the coolest place? So actually, is 0:15:32.840 --> 0:15:35.520 there an I p O or something in the pipeline 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:38.960 that would turn around the psychology of other companies to 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:41.920 come here. I'm not sure there's one particular company. I 0:15:41.960 --> 0:15:44.760 think it's more about what is the perception of London 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:47.640 amongst the founder community and the corporate community more generally, 0:15:47.960 --> 0:15:50.080 and it needs to become a default that when you 0:15:50.160 --> 0:15:52.280 are a company that is founded here or even an 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:56.120 international issue are London is a viable place for you 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.440 to list and get the valuation you want, the investors 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.080 you want. But you're talking about the recent blow basically 0:16:01.200 --> 0:16:03.520 from soft Bank, which is now rethinking whether to bring 0:16:03.600 --> 0:16:06.200 back the UK to designer ARMED to the London mark. 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.560 It's with a partial listing that should UK policymakers now 0:16:09.600 --> 0:16:11.440 do everything they can to convince them that this is 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:13.840 the right place. And what can they do concretely, What 0:16:13.920 --> 0:16:16.880 can they do concretely, I think just illustrate, demonstrate to 0:16:17.920 --> 0:16:21.120 ARM and its owners that they will not be at 0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:24.640 a disadvantage by virtue, either in terms of valuation or liquidity, 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:29.360 or regulatory friction or the investor attitudes that they will 0:16:30.120 --> 0:16:33.120 engage they will encounter in London visa via any other jurisdictions. 0:16:33.120 --> 0:16:34.840 I think that's the key thing. I mean, there are 0:16:34.920 --> 0:16:37.200 wider points round as well, because as I said in 0:16:37.320 --> 0:16:39.440 my in my letter, and I've said a number of times, 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:43.000 regulatory reform is only one thing, and and all credit 0:16:43.040 --> 0:16:44.880 to the Treasury and the f c A moving things 0:16:44.920 --> 0:16:47.320 forward with speed on the back of hill and I'm 0:16:47.680 --> 0:16:50.720 confident by the middle of next year sa Q three 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:54.160 next year, we will have a regular, reformed regulatory regime 0:16:54.200 --> 0:16:56.720 in London that is modernized, fit for purpose and that 0:16:56.800 --> 0:16:59.480 bears comparison with any other GIP listing jurisdiction in the world, 0:16:59.520 --> 0:17:01.920 which is fun tastic. The other things that we need 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:05.040 to start thinking about, and the discussion has already started, 0:17:05.160 --> 0:17:09.399 are things like remuneration. Our remuneration policies in this country 0:17:09.560 --> 0:17:12.360 do not necessarily help us, and there is an obsessive 0:17:12.400 --> 0:17:15.800 focus on remuneration and investor rattitudes in London are perhaps 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:18.920 more value focused rather than growth focused. I think there's 0:17:18.920 --> 0:17:21.399 a conversation to have there around investor rattitudes in London. 0:17:21.720 --> 0:17:24.040 I think there's a conversation to have around proxy advisors 0:17:24.520 --> 0:17:26.679 and the and the power they have and the influence 0:17:26.680 --> 0:17:28.720 they have and how they interact with companies and investors. 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:31.160 I think there's a conversation to have about tax incentives 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.639 and how you actually create a continuum across the private 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:37.200 UK capital markets and the public UK capital markets that 0:17:37.640 --> 0:17:40.960 create tax incentives for companies to found themselves here, scale 0:17:41.040 --> 0:17:43.720 themselves here and then stay here. What kind of time 0:17:43.760 --> 0:17:45.880 frame are we thinking about? So if this is left 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:47.920 too long, if this is left I don't have twelve 0:17:47.960 --> 0:17:51.359 months even eighteen months again, does it fizzle out? Do 0:17:51.480 --> 0:17:53.840 you have to to kind of, you know, go quite 0:17:53.880 --> 0:17:57.400 aggressively for it now? I think you do. I think 0:17:57.440 --> 0:17:59.480 you do, and you know there's no you should strike. 0:17:59.520 --> 0:18:01.520 Why they are top. There is general consensus in the 0:18:01.600 --> 0:18:04.720 market across all stakeholders that this needs to happen, and 0:18:05.160 --> 0:18:07.400 it is happening. I don't think we need to say, 0:18:07.480 --> 0:18:09.520 you know, if we haven't done it within eighteen months, 0:18:09.560 --> 0:18:11.960 whi's too late. I think probably if you talk about 0:18:12.000 --> 0:18:13.600 in three or four years, it might be too late. 0:18:13.920 --> 0:18:15.440 But we're not talking about that sort of time frame. 0:18:15.480 --> 0:18:17.560 I think people are keen to do this as quickly 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:20.680 as possible. I'm very hardened by the fact that we 0:18:20.760 --> 0:18:24.200 are taking fairly swift action on all this. But it's 0:18:24.240 --> 0:18:27.320 also about just changing the narrative amongst global investors in 0:18:27.359 --> 0:18:30.159 global companies that London is open for business, the UK 0:18:30.280 --> 0:18:33.440 capital markets are a place that they should come and list. 0:18:33.520 --> 0:18:35.760 And the point we also are making through we're making 0:18:35.800 --> 0:18:37.399 through the task Force and I've also been making is 0:18:37.560 --> 0:18:40.160 this isn't just a look after the City of London point. 0:18:40.200 --> 0:18:42.159 I mean that is important, but it is actually a 0:18:42.320 --> 0:18:45.560 UK economy point because the City of London is a 0:18:45.640 --> 0:18:48.560 major economic driver of the UK economy and so keeping 0:18:48.640 --> 0:18:51.359 it relevant is important in all sorts of economic and 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:55.159 political terms. And if we have a thriving public and 0:18:55.240 --> 0:18:58.200 private capital market in the UK, then that drives jobs, 0:18:58.320 --> 0:19:01.399 that drives wages, that drives it drives the economy. So 0:19:01.480 --> 0:19:03.760 there's a wider political and economic good that we need 0:19:03.800 --> 0:19:06.399 to reinforce too. But Mark, I don't know whether you're 0:19:06.480 --> 0:19:08.399 you're feeling was that Boris Johnson was doing enough or 0:19:08.440 --> 0:19:10.760 not enough for it. It felt at times like actually 0:19:10.840 --> 0:19:12.880 this was something that he wanted together with the chancel 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:15.440 Richie sooner. And we're in a political vacuum and we 0:19:15.480 --> 0:19:17.639 don't really know what the next Prime minister will do, 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:20.439 So how much does it matter who's leading this country 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:23.080 in this I don't think it matters that much. And 0:19:23.200 --> 0:19:24.879 to be fair, Jim Boris Johnson and his team were 0:19:24.880 --> 0:19:26.560 doing a very good job. Number ten and very number 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:28.679 eleven very were very keen on all this and they 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.399