1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Quality times, but Joseph's gotten more. I don't know about 2 00:00:07,040 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: all the rest of the rural areas around the country, 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,559 Speaker 1: but I do know about the South. In the South, 4 00:00:13,360 --> 00:00:17,480 Speaker 1: you live out in the rural area, you don't really 5 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:24,360 Speaker 1: have an access to a dumpster. Most people, and I'm 6 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 1: thinking back to my grandparents right now, had oil drums 7 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:30,880 Speaker 1: in their yard and they'd put their household trash in 8 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:33,360 Speaker 1: it and light it on fire. That was one of 9 00:00:33,360 --> 00:00:35,600 Speaker 1: the great treats of my life when I was little, 10 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:39,000 Speaker 1: that my grandmother would let me help her do that. 11 00:00:40,000 --> 00:00:42,199 Speaker 1: And then, of course in the rural areas you have 12 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,080 Speaker 1: big burn piles as well, where you'll take brush that 13 00:00:46,120 --> 00:00:48,840 Speaker 1: you've cut away, maybe along your fence line or fallen 14 00:00:48,880 --> 00:00:53,080 Speaker 1: trees or whatever the case might be, and you don't 15 00:00:53,120 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: do it. You don't do it every single day. You'll 16 00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,960 Speaker 1: wait till it accumulates. That is the brush. The trash 17 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,119 Speaker 1: burn regularly. But you know, sometimes those brush piles actually 18 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:09,720 Speaker 1: turn into gathering areas because it's essentially a gigantic pond fire. 19 00:01:10,440 --> 00:01:16,880 Speaker 1: It's a place for many that has great memories. People 20 00:01:17,520 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: sitting around singing, maybe somebody's got a guitar, maybe somebody's 21 00:01:21,240 --> 00:01:27,240 Speaker 1: drinking beer and laughing and joking and carrying on. But 22 00:01:27,400 --> 00:01:30,960 Speaker 1: every now and then, every now and then, there will 23 00:01:30,959 --> 00:01:40,120 Speaker 1: be an event that happens on a family's property that 24 00:01:41,080 --> 00:01:43,839 Speaker 1: is beyond the pale of anything that we can imagine. 25 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:47,440 Speaker 1: And today is a day that we're going to talk 26 00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: about one such case that not many people have heard of. 27 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:56,000 Speaker 1: It's a case that originates in our home state of Alabama, 28 00:01:57,280 --> 00:02:01,320 Speaker 1: and it's got everybody talking around these parts. And maybe 29 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:04,960 Speaker 1: after you hear this, you want to do your own research. 30 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, and this is Bodybacks. Dave. You 31 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:21,040 Speaker 1: ever had an old drum you burn trash in? You 32 00:02:21,040 --> 00:02:21,919 Speaker 1: ever done that before? 33 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,760 Speaker 2: I'm from the South, but it's southern California, so no, 34 00:02:26,800 --> 00:02:30,200 Speaker 2: you know that was very quickly, just so we are 35 00:02:30,280 --> 00:02:34,160 Speaker 2: all clear. Yeah, I know what one is, yeah, and 36 00:02:34,200 --> 00:02:37,000 Speaker 2: I know what a burn pile is. But I also 37 00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:39,040 Speaker 2: know what it was like as a child for getting 38 00:02:39,080 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 2: in trouble for building a fire in the backyard when 39 00:02:42,400 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 2: my brother and I were trying to roast marshmallows. So yeah, 40 00:02:47,080 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 2: it's funny how things change, you know. I love living 41 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:52,760 Speaker 2: in different parts of the Great Country because things that 42 00:02:52,800 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 2: are normal where we live now. Are people think you're 43 00:02:56,000 --> 00:02:59,600 Speaker 2: making it up? When this story first broke, it was 44 00:02:59,600 --> 00:03:01,760 Speaker 2: brought to me by my wife. She said, Dave, have 45 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,000 Speaker 2: you heard about this car wreck? Because it was a 46 00:03:05,040 --> 00:03:09,799 Speaker 2: car wreck that a dad died, a two year old 47 00:03:09,880 --> 00:03:13,200 Speaker 2: girl died, his daughter, and his wife was in critical condition. 48 00:03:14,000 --> 00:03:16,040 Speaker 2: And it was I think it happened on a Sunday, 49 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 2: if I'm not mistaken. And my first thought was what happened, 50 00:03:21,320 --> 00:03:25,040 Speaker 2: you know? And looking at what happened, I was like, well, 51 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:28,640 Speaker 2: they're speeding, first of all, high rate of speed nine. 52 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:31,919 Speaker 1: He estimated ninety two miles per hour and a forty 53 00:03:31,960 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: five mile prior zone going straighten out a curve. 54 00:03:36,000 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 2: What dad does that? What kind of adult father puts 55 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,119 Speaker 2: his children in that kind of risk? Oh? But let's 56 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 2: add another one to it, Joe, because Riley Collins, the 57 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:51,920 Speaker 2: two year old daughter of Stephen Collins and Pam Bailey, 58 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:57,440 Speaker 2: she wasn't buckled in anywhere. So you're driving ninety miles 59 00:03:57,480 --> 00:04:00,400 Speaker 2: an hour in a forty five mile if I'm on 60 00:04:00,480 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 2: HoriZone going into a curve and your daughter, your two 61 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 2: year old daughter isn't buckled in. Yep, Yeah, good job. 62 00:04:08,960 --> 00:04:12,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, ain't that awesome. And just so people understand that 63 00:04:12,480 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: we've had this case for us, I'll put it to 64 00:04:17,200 --> 00:04:19,880 Speaker 1: you this way. The reason I wanted to talk about 65 00:04:19,880 --> 00:04:23,919 Speaker 1: this case is that I rarely get asked by local 66 00:04:24,680 --> 00:04:28,600 Speaker 1: television channels to do stuff. And it's not that I 67 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:31,960 Speaker 1: don't want to. I love people at local stations because 68 00:04:33,040 --> 00:04:35,840 Speaker 1: they don't have the same sensibilities necessarily that you know, 69 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: the big the big boys do you know? Their view 70 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:46,480 Speaker 1: is focused on local matters and I enjoy helping out, 71 00:04:46,640 --> 00:04:49,320 Speaker 1: you know. And but I had two called me from 72 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:51,479 Speaker 1: Birmingham in the last two days. Can you comment on 73 00:04:51,520 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: this case? And I'm thinking, wow, yeah, I'll be glad 74 00:04:56,080 --> 00:04:58,440 Speaker 1: to And I really didn't know much about it. As 75 00:04:58,480 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: a matter of fact, I knew nothing of about it 76 00:05:01,000 --> 00:05:03,920 Speaker 1: until I guess four maybe four days ago. And you 77 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:09,599 Speaker 1: said that you had known about it. Lodonna had passed 78 00:05:09,680 --> 00:05:14,360 Speaker 1: that on to you. And this is back in December 79 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:19,200 Speaker 1: when the MVA took place. But Dave, this case goes 80 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:22,080 Speaker 1: back further than December. 81 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,760 Speaker 2: It was actually in the car wreck that killed Stephen Collins, 82 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,400 Speaker 2: the father, and Riley Collins, the two year old daughter, 83 00:05:30,200 --> 00:05:33,400 Speaker 2: and his mother the mother here Pam Bailey, She was 84 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 2: critically injured. They did not expect her to live. And 85 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 2: so what happened is you're identifying the people involved, and 86 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:42,479 Speaker 2: you're going, wait a minute, we have the mom, we 87 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:44,880 Speaker 2: have the dad. They've got two children. We can only 88 00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 2: find one. So they were looking, you know, they were 89 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:52,800 Speaker 2: looking around the crash site for this one year old toddler, 90 00:05:52,839 --> 00:05:55,120 Speaker 2: this little baby, you know, I mean, they're missing a child. 91 00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,279 Speaker 2: And it was from that accident they went, wait a minute, 92 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,240 Speaker 2: there's no baby here. There's no sign of another child 93 00:06:01,320 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 2: being in this car. And that's when they went when 94 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:06,640 Speaker 2: was That's when the investigation began and they found out 95 00:06:06,839 --> 00:06:08,640 Speaker 2: they maybe had been missing since September. 96 00:06:09,360 --> 00:06:12,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, and so we're up to December now when the 97 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:15,279 Speaker 1: EREC takes place, and back to the accident. I think 98 00:06:15,279 --> 00:06:18,880 Speaker 1: that this is something that folks need to understand that 99 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:27,200 Speaker 1: first off, the mother was restrained, she was belted in 100 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: the vehicle. The father who was understrained, the operator of 101 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: the vehicle. He was ejected and the two year old 102 00:06:38,760 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: was ejected and she was in the back seat, and 103 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,159 Speaker 1: so she was thrown out of the vehicle, and of 104 00:06:44,160 --> 00:06:48,520 Speaker 1: course they both wound up with massive blunt force trauma, 105 00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,719 Speaker 1: which is the primary cause of death in every just 106 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: about every motor vehicle accident I've ever worked, and it's 107 00:06:57,920 --> 00:07:02,320 Speaker 1: the number one cause of death relative to motor vehicle accidents. 108 00:07:02,360 --> 00:07:05,440 Speaker 1: And it kind of makes sense. It's like it's like 109 00:07:05,520 --> 00:07:10,040 Speaker 1: you're in a tumble dryer and you're getting thrown about 110 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:15,920 Speaker 1: multiple points of impact, and you know, no number of 111 00:07:16,120 --> 00:07:18,920 Speaker 1: bag deployments are going to save your life if you're 112 00:07:18,960 --> 00:07:23,280 Speaker 1: traveling at that rate and you're unrestrained. So and I 113 00:07:23,440 --> 00:07:28,440 Speaker 1: was kind of reflecting on this day when when they 114 00:07:28,480 --> 00:07:33,400 Speaker 1: have this kind of epiphanal moment where at the scene 115 00:07:34,280 --> 00:07:37,560 Speaker 1: where they know that there is a baby that is 116 00:07:37,600 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: attached to this family that's not there, who is won 117 00:07:42,600 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: by the way, I can only imagine the police, because 118 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:52,120 Speaker 1: this is what cops are and firefighters too. At about children. 119 00:07:52,520 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 1: They probably said, look, we're going back out here. We're 120 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:59,040 Speaker 1: scouring every because you never know. Car accidents are so 121 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:03,720 Speaker 1: violent and it's so dynamic. You never know where anybody 122 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,040 Speaker 1: who's going to be launched to where they're going to 123 00:08:06,120 --> 00:08:10,600 Speaker 1: land up land at, and for a one year old, 124 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,720 Speaker 1: very tiny, they could have wound up anywhere. You have 125 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: no idea. I've seen some of the most bizarre things 126 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: in the world in motor vehicle accidents, and we can 127 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:23,680 Speaker 1: do it an entire show on that sometimes. But how 128 00:08:23,840 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: is it? I think the question I have is that 129 00:08:26,600 --> 00:08:29,800 Speaker 1: how is it that they came to understand that the 130 00:08:29,960 --> 00:08:33,880 Speaker 1: child was missing? That's what I don't. I don't I 131 00:08:33,880 --> 00:08:35,040 Speaker 1: can't really feature here. 132 00:08:35,240 --> 00:08:39,679 Speaker 2: Now here's your investigation. You've got a dead forty year 133 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:44,640 Speaker 2: old father, dead two year old daughter. Mom wife is 134 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:48,880 Speaker 2: in the hospital in critical condition. When they started peeling 135 00:08:48,920 --> 00:08:53,600 Speaker 2: back the family dynamic, they found out that John Elton Bailey, 136 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 2: that would be Pam Bailey's father. By her name is 137 00:08:58,760 --> 00:09:01,360 Speaker 2: Wendy Bailey, but her she goes by her middle name 138 00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 2: is Pamela, and she goes by Pam Bailey. Okay, so 139 00:09:04,480 --> 00:09:09,400 Speaker 2: Pam's father, John Elton Bailey, who is fifty five years old, 140 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:14,520 Speaker 2: he actually had legal guardianship of Caleb. 141 00:09:15,480 --> 00:09:18,200 Speaker 1: And of course classic line coming up here in three 142 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:23,120 Speaker 1: two one, they were already on on the radar of 143 00:09:23,160 --> 00:09:26,840 Speaker 1: Family and Children Services. You know, as you can imagine, 144 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:31,640 Speaker 1: what a shock, huh. And when when I reveal to 145 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:37,760 Speaker 1: you in this episode what has been done, You're going 146 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,720 Speaker 1: to sit back and you I'm not going to say 147 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: you can't take the measure of it, because Lord knows 148 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:47,000 Speaker 1: some stuff we talked about. But you're really going to 149 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,600 Speaker 1: be scratching your head over this because it is. It's 150 00:09:50,679 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: absolutely ghastly and what a devastating blow, you know, in 151 00:09:57,800 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: that little community. Because we're talking about this is so 152 00:10:02,120 --> 00:10:07,559 Speaker 1: just kind of a quick geography lesson here. Fayette County, Alabama, 153 00:10:08,360 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: is north west of Birmingham, and if everybody's familiar with Bama, 154 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:19,400 Speaker 1: you know the University of Alabama. It's almost directly due 155 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: north of Tuscaloosa where the University of Alabama is. It's 156 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:33,160 Speaker 1: it's rural, Okay, it's very rural. It's sparsely populated. I've 157 00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:38,600 Speaker 1: got a couple of really good friends that are from Fayette, Alabama, 158 00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:46,040 Speaker 1: which I believe is the county seat, and they, you know, 159 00:10:46,120 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: go on and on about their home there because it's 160 00:10:48,720 --> 00:10:52,760 Speaker 1: so peaceful out in the country, beautiful, lush kind of 161 00:10:52,840 --> 00:10:56,880 Speaker 1: rolling land up there. You're still in that kind of 162 00:10:57,760 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: Cumberland plateau, Appalachian foot hill kind of scenery, you know, 163 00:11:02,040 --> 00:11:06,439 Speaker 1: as you're at the north and to have this kind 164 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:11,839 Speaker 1: of devastation happened in that little community up there, which 165 00:11:11,920 --> 00:11:17,400 Speaker 1: shocked the conscience and when we find out about Caleb, 166 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:21,160 Speaker 1: you can imagine the community up there was one of 167 00:11:21,200 --> 00:11:23,960 Speaker 1: you know, where's this child? The child's part of this 168 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:26,400 Speaker 1: area here. We want to know what happened to him, 169 00:11:26,760 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 1: and no one had seen or heard anything about him. 170 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:35,280 Speaker 1: All they knew is that these three adults had custody 171 00:11:35,559 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 1: over two children and for whatever reason, they couldn't take 172 00:11:41,080 --> 00:11:56,400 Speaker 1: care of him. Well, where's the first place you're going 173 00:11:56,440 --> 00:11:59,719 Speaker 1: to look for a missing child? You know, if you 174 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 1: determined that as a result of this motor vehicle accident, 175 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 1: this baby Caleb is nowhere to be found. He's one 176 00:12:07,920 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 1: years old. Guess what, You're going to go to the 177 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: home and this property is kind of an odd an 178 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:22,120 Speaker 1: odd misshmash if you will. When there's a lot of 179 00:12:22,200 --> 00:12:27,120 Speaker 1: Jerne footage of this place and a couple of outbuildings 180 00:12:27,160 --> 00:12:29,520 Speaker 1: that sort of thing, and you can actually see where 181 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,319 Speaker 1: there are what appears to be, I don't want to 182 00:12:32,320 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: call it piles of garbage, but there are areas where 183 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: things have been deposited back there. It's hard to really 184 00:12:38,720 --> 00:12:42,559 Speaker 1: make sense of it, but you know, Dave, the police 185 00:12:43,080 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: went out to this location on several occasions, did multiple 186 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:52,880 Speaker 1: searches and never could never could find Caleb. 187 00:12:53,080 --> 00:12:54,720 Speaker 2: But once they get to the house and talk to 188 00:12:55,280 --> 00:13:00,280 Speaker 2: granddad John Elton Bailey, he says, yeah, I don't know, Worry. 189 00:13:00,360 --> 00:13:02,000 Speaker 2: I hadn't seen him in a couple of months. I 190 00:13:02,040 --> 00:13:03,920 Speaker 2: don't know where that little boy is. So he gets 191 00:13:04,000 --> 00:13:07,559 Speaker 2: charged right away. They charge him with failure to report 192 00:13:07,600 --> 00:13:11,400 Speaker 2: a child missing. So now the story has broken. You've 193 00:13:11,400 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 2: got this horrible car crash, moms in critical condition, the 194 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 2: other two are dead, and Grandpa's now in jail on 195 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,800 Speaker 2: one hundred thousand dollars bond because this child didn't go 196 00:13:18,920 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 2: missing yesterday. This child's been missing for a while. And 197 00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 2: that's after they researched it some more. On December seventeenth, 198 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 2: they issued the emergency alert, the BOLO or not a BOLO, 199 00:13:30,200 --> 00:13:33,640 Speaker 2: but the Amber Alert alert you know, or whatever alert 200 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: we give nowadays on that because they hadn't they didn't 201 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 2: really know what to go on. You know, there really 202 00:13:39,640 --> 00:13:42,360 Speaker 2: wasn't anything other than what they were being told by 203 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,880 Speaker 2: family that said, I don't know where he is. I mean, 204 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:47,960 Speaker 2: how do you answer that question, I guess, Joe. One 205 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 2: of the things that you and I and actually we 206 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 2: all immediately think of our own children when a child is, 207 00:13:56,920 --> 00:13:59,640 Speaker 2: and we think, what have I ever been where I 208 00:13:59,679 --> 00:14:02,319 Speaker 2: didn't know where my child was for more than a minute, 209 00:14:02,440 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 2: you know, And to think that you could actually answer 210 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 2: with it, that you could wake up in the morning 211 00:14:09,679 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 2: knowing that a child, you're, a one year old child 212 00:14:12,400 --> 00:14:15,280 Speaker 2: you are responsible for, that you could actually go to 213 00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 2: bed tonight not knowing where that child is. I can't 214 00:14:18,679 --> 00:14:19,720 Speaker 2: even identify with that. 215 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: I can't either. And you know, and this isn't a 216 00:14:23,160 --> 00:14:29,920 Speaker 1: matter of you know, everybody does things differently. It takes 217 00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:35,960 Speaker 1: it takes minimal effort to just attain the baseline of care, 218 00:14:36,880 --> 00:14:45,000 Speaker 1: you know, warm, clean clothes, clean baby, significant food. Now, 219 00:14:45,040 --> 00:14:47,680 Speaker 1: some people don't believe in holding their kids. I'd still 220 00:14:47,720 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 1: hold my kids today if I could. But that's not 221 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:54,880 Speaker 1: what everybody does. But just those basics that you know, 222 00:14:54,960 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: are kind of required of us as civilized human beings. 223 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:04,600 Speaker 1: We have three adults that miserably failed, apparently at that 224 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 1: one simple task, and you know, it's demonstrated. It's demonstrated 225 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:14,560 Speaker 1: to me that even further by the fact that they 226 00:15:14,600 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: didn't have this two year old restrained in the vehicle 227 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,680 Speaker 1: and he's driving so recklessly. I got to tell you 228 00:15:19,720 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: one other thing, in the light of everything that has 229 00:15:22,200 --> 00:15:26,280 Speaker 1: kind of come about in this case, have you have 230 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: you thought has it? Has it crossed her mind, Dave 231 00:15:29,440 --> 00:15:34,080 Speaker 1: that maybe him operating that vehicle the way he was, 232 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:35,520 Speaker 1: that that was a suicide attempt. 233 00:15:38,000 --> 00:15:41,920 Speaker 2: Hmm. No, I hadn't thought about that. 234 00:15:42,800 --> 00:15:46,120 Speaker 1: It's something that had come to mind from me, because 235 00:15:46,360 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: you know, why in the world would you be operating 236 00:15:50,280 --> 00:15:54,520 Speaker 1: a motor vehicle at that speed and you've got the 237 00:15:54,560 --> 00:15:57,800 Speaker 1: mother of your children in the vehicle with you, and 238 00:15:57,840 --> 00:16:02,640 Speaker 1: you've got an unrestrained child in the back seat. Did 239 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 1: the dad know something and was he aware that you know, 240 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:11,000 Speaker 1: there was gonna be a bad moon rising for him 241 00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:13,960 Speaker 1: in maybe a matter of weeks, because they can't. You 242 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:18,240 Speaker 1: can't keep this covered up forever, and so to facto 243 00:16:18,520 --> 00:16:22,240 Speaker 1: just gonna We're going to end everything by doing this. Now, 244 00:16:22,280 --> 00:16:26,160 Speaker 1: Maybe maybe that's far fetched. I have, however, had people 245 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 1: that have committed suicide with their vehicle by running it 246 00:16:32,400 --> 00:16:38,600 Speaker 1: into fixed objects. That's a thing that does happen. And 247 00:16:38,760 --> 00:16:43,160 Speaker 1: you know, to me, maybe maybe it wasn't intentional, but intentional, 248 00:16:43,240 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 1: but you're living your life in such a reckless manner 249 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:49,280 Speaker 1: in the absence of this one year old because you know, 250 00:16:49,360 --> 00:16:53,440 Speaker 1: you've had we'll see September, October, November. You've had three 251 00:16:53,520 --> 00:16:56,200 Speaker 1: months to kind of stew over this whole thing, this 252 00:16:56,440 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: entire time where the child has gone missing. You know, 253 00:17:00,160 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: somebody's going to be looking for them. They're going to 254 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:06,000 Speaker 1: come back to you, and then, I don't know, maybe 255 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:12,360 Speaker 1: maybe guilt weighs heavy based upon what was done potentially 256 00:17:12,400 --> 00:17:16,280 Speaker 1: from what I'm hearing to this child prior to the disappearance, Dave, 257 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:19,360 Speaker 1: because I got to tell you, out of a lot 258 00:17:19,359 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: of the cases we cover, I've used I don't know, 259 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: I don't want to, uh, you know, continue to overuse 260 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: this word. But what we're going to be talking about 261 00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:35,920 Speaker 1: in just a few moments here as echoes of sadism 262 00:17:35,960 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 1: because of what has over what was allegedly done to 263 00:17:40,760 --> 00:17:43,840 Speaker 1: this one year old. But you know, when the police 264 00:17:43,880 --> 00:17:47,040 Speaker 1: got out there, initially they couldn't find anything, Dave, and 265 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,560 Speaker 1: they went all over the property. I'm looking at the 266 00:17:49,640 --> 00:17:53,440 Speaker 1: drone footage. I can actually see where they've dug holes, 267 00:17:53,880 --> 00:17:55,840 Speaker 1: you know, and they're you know, these kind of certain 268 00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:58,640 Speaker 1: they're not like trenches or anything. They're kind of circular 269 00:17:58,720 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 1: in appearance. There's searching over the area. I would imagine 270 00:18:02,000 --> 00:18:05,840 Speaker 1: that they may have suspected that there was a burial 271 00:18:06,000 --> 00:18:08,360 Speaker 1: in the backyard. That's the only reason I can think 272 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:10,040 Speaker 1: of them turning Earth's back there. 273 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 2: I'm thinking about the JJ Tilely case. When they were 274 00:18:13,800 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 2: on that property. You know, they were looking in a 275 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,400 Speaker 2: very specific area. You know, we had basically two areas 276 00:18:19,440 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 2: that they had figured out where these bodies were. Yeah, 277 00:18:23,480 --> 00:18:26,560 Speaker 2: in case, they've got the whole area to go look at. 278 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:28,879 Speaker 2: I got a feeling that there's going to be a 279 00:18:29,440 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 2: number of other objects out there that they've probably tried 280 00:18:31,680 --> 00:18:33,240 Speaker 2: to hide, you know, Yeah. 281 00:18:33,200 --> 00:18:37,000 Speaker 1: I would think so. And going back to the day 282 00:18:37,040 --> 00:18:42,239 Speaker 1: Bell you know, the day Bell case cases, rather, I 283 00:18:42,280 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 1: never know what surname to call anybody by, and that 284 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,160 Speaker 1: whole thing is so so ridiculous and. 285 00:18:50,119 --> 00:18:51,040 Speaker 2: So horrible. 286 00:18:51,720 --> 00:18:55,160 Speaker 1: But I think about, you know, Tiley out there and 287 00:18:55,200 --> 00:19:01,639 Speaker 1: what they did with her remains. He was found adjacent 288 00:19:01,720 --> 00:19:08,400 Speaker 1: to a ring. And I still remember actually the day 289 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: that I was shown those aerial photographs from that scene 290 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:15,520 Speaker 1: from Chad day Bell's home, And this is before I 291 00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:20,560 Speaker 1: got to see the first images, before the authorities moved 292 00:19:20,640 --> 00:19:22,800 Speaker 1: the logs and it was set up. David. It looked 293 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: like something from a boy scout encampment. There were logs 294 00:19:26,440 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: that were laid out in a perfect circle like you 295 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: would sit on and you know, picking the guitar, you know, 296 00:19:32,280 --> 00:19:34,720 Speaker 1: having a bonfire and all that sort of thing and 297 00:19:34,760 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: all that stuff, and later images had been moved, and 298 00:19:39,040 --> 00:19:41,560 Speaker 1: of course with her remains, it was a very half 299 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:45,320 Speaker 1: hearted effort. It was horrific but half hearted effort to 300 00:19:45,480 --> 00:19:50,280 Speaker 1: try to render her down, and they failed miserably because 301 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:55,159 Speaker 1: there was still a significant amount of her body that 302 00:19:55,280 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: was left behind. But you know, the police are with 303 00:19:59,440 --> 00:20:03,920 Speaker 1: a case in County, Alabama. They're looking everywhere and they're 304 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:07,080 Speaker 1: not getting a hit. They can't see anything out there. 305 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 2: What's going to be the difference between what you're looking 306 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:14,280 Speaker 2: for with a seventeen year old body versus a one 307 00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 2: year old. 308 00:20:15,040 --> 00:20:17,000 Speaker 1: Oh, it's very very simple. 309 00:20:17,280 --> 00:20:18,840 Speaker 2: We don't break down the same way. I know, there's 310 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:20,560 Speaker 2: a lot less of a one year old at thirty 311 00:20:20,600 --> 00:20:22,679 Speaker 2: five pounds, but I mean there's more to it than 312 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:24,680 Speaker 2: just that, right, I mean, yeah, there is. 313 00:20:24,760 --> 00:20:27,280 Speaker 1: And you know one of the big things is that 314 00:20:28,080 --> 00:20:31,000 Speaker 1: let's just start off very basically talking about skeletal structure. 315 00:20:31,600 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: You know, when you're one, you haven't had like bone 316 00:20:36,359 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: fusions that have taken place, that sort of thing. Do 317 00:20:39,080 --> 00:20:43,000 Speaker 1: you know that babies are actually, you know, toddlers, They 318 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: have more bones than adults do because because fusion hasn't 319 00:20:47,760 --> 00:20:52,280 Speaker 1: taken place, well fusion can, particularly at that age, can 320 00:20:52,359 --> 00:20:59,439 Speaker 1: take place, the bones still have to be soft and malleable. Okay, Therefore, 321 00:20:59,640 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 1: if they are exposed to say, thermal injuries for a 322 00:21:03,040 --> 00:21:08,520 Speaker 1: protracted period of time, they're broken down very very easily. 323 00:21:09,080 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 1: And with an adult where you have this kind of 324 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:17,520 Speaker 1: the bones have ossified at this point in time, they're 325 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:21,000 Speaker 1: much more resilient. It takes a much longer time to 326 00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:25,359 Speaker 1: render them down. We've covered several cases involving and involving 327 00:21:25,440 --> 00:21:31,480 Speaker 1: cremains as they're referred to, and it takes a lot 328 00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:35,480 Speaker 1: of tending of the fire. It's not I'd said in 329 00:21:35,520 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: one interview, I think it was yesterday where I think 330 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:40,920 Speaker 1: a lot of people labor under this idea that you're 331 00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:43,159 Speaker 1: going to take a galley of gasoline and pour it 332 00:21:43,240 --> 00:21:47,000 Speaker 1: over the subject and struck a match and walk away, 333 00:21:47,440 --> 00:21:52,720 Speaker 1: and yeah, and that that's not the case because gasoline 334 00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:57,360 Speaker 1: is not fuel. We think of fuel for our car gasoline, gasolar, 335 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: sorry three two gasoline kerosene fuel their accelerants. Okay, you 336 00:22:11,080 --> 00:22:14,400 Speaker 1: can get something started. You know. Obviously if you've ever 337 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:19,240 Speaker 1: foolishly you had a puddle of gas and you struck 338 00:22:19,240 --> 00:22:20,720 Speaker 1: a match and you threw it in, and you see 339 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: how that happens. It kind of flashes over, you know, 340 00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: and certainly the more gas you have, you're gonna have 341 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:31,280 Speaker 1: an explosion. But it doesn't burn forever and ever. Amen. Okay, 342 00:22:31,840 --> 00:22:34,719 Speaker 1: you have to you have to source it with wood. 343 00:22:34,760 --> 00:22:37,760 Speaker 1: For instance, you think about Terror Grinstead over in Georgia. 344 00:22:38,400 --> 00:22:41,080 Speaker 1: She was in the middle of her remains were like 345 00:22:41,080 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 1: in the middle of a pecan orchard, and when her 346 00:22:47,560 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: body was rendered down that fire was tended for a 347 00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:56,680 Speaker 1: long period of time using pecan wood, which, by the way, 348 00:22:56,760 --> 00:22:59,520 Speaker 1: I found out this is kind of an interesting little aside. 349 00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,440 Speaker 1: There's a scale that's out there that I discovered where 350 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 1: you can It measures the bt us, which is the 351 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:17,439 Speaker 1: measurement of heat relative to the species of wood. And 352 00:23:17,440 --> 00:23:20,919 Speaker 1: as you know that hickory and pecan are like at 353 00:23:20,960 --> 00:23:23,959 Speaker 1: the top, and I didn't realize that hickory and pecan 354 00:23:24,119 --> 00:23:29,560 Speaker 1: are very close relatives and so they burn incredibly hot. Okay, 355 00:23:29,840 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: whereas you have other woods that you know, like if 356 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:35,320 Speaker 1: you try to burn pine, for instance, it's not the 357 00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,680 Speaker 1: best idea. Sometimes you have to do it. It's a 358 00:23:37,680 --> 00:23:41,159 Speaker 1: little smoky, a lot of sap, that gummy, you know, 359 00:23:41,480 --> 00:23:45,560 Speaker 1: stuff that comes out of it. So these fires have 360 00:23:45,600 --> 00:23:50,120 Speaker 1: to be tended if you're looking to render down a body. However, 361 00:23:50,320 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 1: when you're talking about a one year old, let that 362 00:23:55,119 --> 00:23:58,560 Speaker 1: sink in just for a moment. A one year old 363 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:04,959 Speaker 1: twelve months they've been on this earth, a one year old, 364 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: It doesn't take much. It just takes somebody that's cold 365 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:34,840 Speaker 1: hearted and doesn't care. There was a reporter in Birmingham 366 00:24:34,880 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: that attended a press conference that was held by the 367 00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:50,960 Speaker 1: sheriff's office there in Fayette County, Alabama, and the reporter 368 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:57,120 Speaker 1: asked the sheriff because the sheriff said that they had 369 00:24:57,200 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: found remains in a burn pile on this property, and 370 00:25:03,600 --> 00:25:05,880 Speaker 1: he said, the only thing he has said so far 371 00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:12,640 Speaker 1: is that they were human remains. And the reporter asked, 372 00:25:14,600 --> 00:25:20,720 Speaker 1: she said, could I recognize these as human remains? And 373 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: the sheriff shook his head and said, no, no, you couldn't. 374 00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: What they have. What they have that remains at that scene, 375 00:25:33,760 --> 00:25:39,680 Speaker 1: first off, was recovered by a anthropologist that they brought 376 00:25:39,680 --> 00:25:45,760 Speaker 1: out there, which I recommend highly anybody that is looking 377 00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: to recover remains. This is not something that should be 378 00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:54,720 Speaker 1: taken lightly. You need to have access to a forensic anthropologist, 379 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,840 Speaker 1: hopefully one that's fully trained up, and in this case, 380 00:25:57,880 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 1: obviously they had one. Because when you go into a 381 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: burn pile, Dave, and you begin to look at everything 382 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: that's there, it it all looks the same. I mean, 383 00:26:10,040 --> 00:26:13,400 Speaker 1: just think about it. All of our friends out there, 384 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:15,959 Speaker 1: if you're ever around an area where you have a 385 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:19,480 Speaker 1: you've had a bonfire and all of the wood is 386 00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: rendered down there. Even if you've thrown like a plastic 387 00:26:23,040 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 1: bottle in there, or maybe a metal bottle cap if 388 00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:30,479 Speaker 1: it's allowed to burn long enough, everything looks the same. 389 00:26:31,119 --> 00:26:32,879 Speaker 1: But I got to tell you, Dave, not to the 390 00:26:32,920 --> 00:26:34,280 Speaker 1: eye of an anthropologist. 391 00:26:37,080 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 2: Okay, now, Joe, we're talking about the body of a 392 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:42,080 Speaker 2: one year old child, and I looked this up to 393 00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 2: see what the description was when you know of size, 394 00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:52,480 Speaker 2: approximately thirty five pounds. They started looking for him in December, 395 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 2: where he'd already been gone for a couple of months. 396 00:26:54,800 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 2: We're not even sure exactly when. Just go back to 397 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,120 Speaker 2: September and let's just you know, say three months, and 398 00:27:01,920 --> 00:27:06,000 Speaker 2: if if he was just if the I hate you 399 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,000 Speaker 2: even saying, I feel evil for talking like this, but 400 00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 2: if that body, if the baby had died, Okay, let's 401 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,160 Speaker 2: just say that baby died from the flu. He died 402 00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:15,439 Speaker 2: in the middle of the night, crib death, whatever, and 403 00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 2: they panicked and got up, and they wrapped him into 404 00:27:17,359 --> 00:27:19,280 Speaker 2: towel and they took him outside and didn't know what 405 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 2: to do, afraid because of their past legal happenings that 406 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:24,919 Speaker 2: they'd be accused of wrongdoing. So they just took this 407 00:27:25,040 --> 00:27:27,159 Speaker 2: child and just left him out and you know, put 408 00:27:27,240 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 2: him out to that side. How quickly would a thirty 409 00:27:30,359 --> 00:27:37,480 Speaker 2: five pound baby like that, a one year old decomposed 410 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 2: very quickly if they're not left updating very quickly, very quickly. 411 00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:46,560 Speaker 1: You know, we're talking September. That's that's still the height 412 00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,679 Speaker 1: of summer here. Everybody thinks September that it's fall. Not 413 00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: in Alabama. It's not not in Alabama. It's not it's 414 00:27:54,359 --> 00:27:58,600 Speaker 1: it's brutal. September is actually generally more miserable than July 415 00:27:58,920 --> 00:28:04,240 Speaker 1: is as far as heat and humidity goes. So, in 416 00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:07,880 Speaker 1: answer to your question, if you if you had similar 417 00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 1: remains that would be left out in the open like that. 418 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:19,680 Speaker 1: First off, decomposition would start very very quickly, but you 419 00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:22,160 Speaker 1: you have a window there where you would be able 420 00:28:22,200 --> 00:28:28,360 Speaker 1: to still recognize the remains, provided you're not dealing with scavengers, 421 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:30,720 Speaker 1: and of course in Alabama you're always dealing with scavengers. 422 00:28:30,720 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 1: But in a perfect in a perfect scenario like you're 423 00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 1: talking about, where the remains remain unmolested by any kind 424 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:41,000 Speaker 1: of scavenger that's out there. It's just subject to the 425 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:45,760 Speaker 1: environmental conditions. Body is going to break down relatively quickly, 426 00:28:47,400 --> 00:28:54,680 Speaker 1: and you will not I would imagine within probably by 427 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:59,200 Speaker 1: the by mid probably mid to late October, you might 428 00:28:59,320 --> 00:29:01,880 Speaker 1: just be dealing with skeleton. If you could still find 429 00:29:01,880 --> 00:29:04,800 Speaker 1: the skeleton at that point in time, and there would 430 00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:09,000 Speaker 1: be some remnant there, and again it's impossible, not the 431 00:29:09,000 --> 00:29:12,120 Speaker 1: factor in scavenger activity, you know, in an environment like that. 432 00:29:12,240 --> 00:29:14,880 Speaker 2: What about the what about the skeleton? Would the skeleton 433 00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 2: because it's not it's not a full grown adult skeleton, 434 00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:23,200 Speaker 2: but will those bones break down? 435 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because they're very soft. It's kind of it's 436 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:30,959 Speaker 1: kind of I'm sure that there's probably archaeologists out there 437 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:32,920 Speaker 1: that would take exception what I'm about to say. I 438 00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: like to read a lot about archaeology and discovery of 439 00:29:36,880 --> 00:29:40,800 Speaker 1: remains from antiquity, those that have been recovered. It's very 440 00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:46,880 Speaker 1: very rare that the remains of infants or young children 441 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,600 Speaker 1: are ever recovered from ancient you know, ancient digs. You'll 442 00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:54,840 Speaker 1: find skeletons, you know, of adults, but again, the skeletons 443 00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 1: have formed, they've gone through this maturation process to that point. 444 00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: Little ones are so very fragile. And you know, people 445 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,600 Speaker 1: always talk about how resilient. You know, child can fall 446 00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: and bounce right back. You know, they might cry a 447 00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:13,160 Speaker 1: little bit. But if you and I took the same 448 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,640 Speaker 1: took the same tumble as to what little kids might do, 449 00:30:17,080 --> 00:30:19,120 Speaker 1: you know, we're going to be convalescing in our bed 450 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: for a couple of days, all right, if not on 451 00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: ICEU in my case, so you know, But for little kids, though, 452 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:30,080 Speaker 1: they can bounce right back, but they're not as resilient 453 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: when subjected to when they're when their body okay we're 454 00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,880 Speaker 1: not talking about living children now, when their bodies, their 455 00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,520 Speaker 1: little bodies are subjected to to the elements like that, 456 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,840 Speaker 1: and then you add in an added layer of fire, 457 00:30:48,520 --> 00:30:53,840 Speaker 1: that that thermal dynamic that comes in and the bodies 458 00:30:53,920 --> 00:30:58,360 Speaker 1: begin to get to the point where they're they're unrecognizable. 459 00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: And again if this child because to this point, you know, 460 00:31:05,600 --> 00:31:09,000 Speaker 1: full disclosure here as of this taping right now, Dave, 461 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: we still don't have a positive id on this precious 462 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,720 Speaker 1: little baby and I call him babies one years old. 463 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: We don't have an id on him, and I think 464 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: that I have an idea as to why it's taking 465 00:31:22,120 --> 00:31:26,840 Speaker 1: so long. But we do know that we have human 466 00:31:26,920 --> 00:31:33,560 Speaker 1: remains and the anthropologist was able to retrieve those remains. 467 00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: And just because you retrieve remains at a scene like this, 468 00:31:37,880 --> 00:31:41,560 Speaker 1: that's not the end of the job because now actually 469 00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,880 Speaker 1: the real work begins because there's two key areas here, Dave, 470 00:31:45,960 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 1: that you have to look at scientifically. First off, who 471 00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:55,280 Speaker 1: is this Okay? Now, I know people are saying, come on, Morgan, 472 00:31:56,080 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: you know how many other one year olds are missing. 473 00:31:59,160 --> 00:32:01,640 Speaker 1: I can't just assume that you know what they say 474 00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:06,680 Speaker 1: about assume you never assume that at all. You have 475 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:13,920 Speaker 1: to scientifically verify who these remains are. Well, the real 476 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:18,280 Speaker 1: task here, Dave, is going to be able to find 477 00:32:18,360 --> 00:32:27,400 Speaker 1: tissue that's still viable. Uh and that's for retrieval of DNA. 478 00:32:27,760 --> 00:32:29,480 Speaker 1: That's the only way you're going to get this this 479 00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:32,920 Speaker 1: baby's body. Uh, you know, identified there are going to 480 00:32:33,000 --> 00:32:33,440 Speaker 1: be no foods. 481 00:32:33,480 --> 00:32:36,800 Speaker 2: You can't do it with any bone pieces. But there's 482 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:38,600 Speaker 2: bone pieces. Is there no DNA in bone? 483 00:32:38,640 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's there's DNA there. But you know, 484 00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:43,920 Speaker 1: these bones are very very soft. I don't know how 485 00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,840 Speaker 1: intact they are. I think my default position is going 486 00:32:46,880 --> 00:32:51,160 Speaker 1: to be teeth because these are still the child at 487 00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:55,320 Speaker 1: one has what referred to as deciduous teeth. It's the 488 00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,480 Speaker 1: same thing. It's like the old it's the same things. 489 00:32:57,480 --> 00:33:00,680 Speaker 1: The old terms baby teeth, and there's any even older 490 00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: term called milk teeth, and the older generation use those terms. 491 00:33:05,400 --> 00:33:10,280 Speaker 1: But yeah, so the deciduous teeth, deciduous means it's something 492 00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:13,960 Speaker 1: that's sitting on top. They're not they're not permanent, but 493 00:33:14,400 --> 00:33:18,120 Speaker 1: they're kind of a they're closed off. And of course 494 00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:23,040 Speaker 1: teeth are not bone. And if you can find a 495 00:33:23,160 --> 00:33:28,600 Speaker 1: tooth that's intact, that hasn't fractured as a result of 496 00:33:28,640 --> 00:33:31,440 Speaker 1: being exposed to heat, and there's high probability you can 497 00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: teeth are very resilient. You would drill down into the 498 00:33:34,760 --> 00:33:37,440 Speaker 1: teeth and into the pulp. And this takes quite a 499 00:33:37,440 --> 00:33:42,560 Speaker 1: bit of skill and extract that pulp sample from there. Now, 500 00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:46,240 Speaker 1: what are you going to compare it to? Well, dad's dead, 501 00:33:46,880 --> 00:33:54,160 Speaker 1: all right, sister's dead, well, who remains? Well, Mama remains. 502 00:33:54,960 --> 00:33:58,000 Speaker 1: So you would do you would go into a buckleamy 503 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,440 Speaker 1: coastal swab and retrieve the cells out of her on 504 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: the size of her cheek there. And some people call 505 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: it a swab or scraping. It's more like a scraping. 506 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:12,040 Speaker 1: You get that sample and then you do a DNA 507 00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:15,480 Speaker 1: profile on her, and that DNA which is unknown at 508 00:34:15,480 --> 00:34:19,120 Speaker 1: this point, tom or the term that she used in forensics, 509 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:24,680 Speaker 1: it's called questioned questioned sample. You would compare the two 510 00:34:24,800 --> 00:34:27,920 Speaker 1: to see if you get a hit. And that's really 511 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: the way I think that they're going to have to 512 00:34:29,680 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: get this child's body identified, all right, to make sure 513 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,360 Speaker 1: that that is Caleb's remains that are there. 514 00:34:40,840 --> 00:34:43,360 Speaker 2: Now, it's one thing for somebody just to hourly say 515 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 2: they found the toddler in the burn pile on the property. 516 00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:48,919 Speaker 2: Come on, Margan, it's got to be this kid. Al 517 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:52,720 Speaker 2: dot com is actually running a story saying the remains 518 00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 2: of an Alabama toddler missing and presumed dead since last 519 00:34:55,560 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 2: year were found in a burn pile. Has it been confirmed, 520 00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,440 Speaker 2: that's what they're saying. And this it goes back to 521 00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 2: something you and I talked about the other day. What's 522 00:35:02,640 --> 00:35:05,919 Speaker 2: the media, the media not knowing how to do its job. 523 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 2: You and I have done, and you've did a great 524 00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,960 Speaker 2: lesson on this with manner, cause, mechanic and death, and 525 00:35:14,800 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 2: it was I didn't know a lot of it. I 526 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 2: know enough of what I've learned from you. But when 527 00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,759 Speaker 2: I hear somebody in the media say the wrong thing, 528 00:35:24,160 --> 00:35:26,680 Speaker 2: they don't know what they're talking about. And it's really 529 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,759 Speaker 2: disingenuous to pretend you are a journalist if you're going 530 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 2: to get facts wrong. And the fact is that child 531 00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:33,960 Speaker 2: has not been identified. 532 00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:36,399 Speaker 1: No, the child has not and you can you can 533 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:40,479 Speaker 1: make a comment like and this is something we would 534 00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,560 Speaker 1: say scientifically, if we've been able to do our measurements, 535 00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:48,759 Speaker 1: we can say that these remains are consistent with the 536 00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,760 Speaker 1: remains of a one year old child. But we haven't 537 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:57,000 Speaker 1: even hit that point yet, Okay, where that's been publicly stated, 538 00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:00,960 Speaker 1: but you still cannot at the time that we're speaking 539 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:06,399 Speaker 1: right now, Dave, you still cannot affirmatively say that. And 540 00:36:06,400 --> 00:36:11,319 Speaker 1: that's that's very dangerous because there are cases out there 541 00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: where uh and I've been a part of them, where 542 00:36:15,239 --> 00:36:20,239 Speaker 1: bodies are misidentified. And listen, I got to tell you, 543 00:36:21,120 --> 00:36:25,480 Speaker 1: not saying this about this family, but if there was 544 00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:31,000 Speaker 1: a similar family and they had such careless disregard for 545 00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 1: their own children, who's to say that this hadn't happened 546 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,920 Speaker 1: to other children. I have no idea about that, but 547 00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:44,719 Speaker 1: it's something that if you're an investigator, you cannot just 548 00:36:44,800 --> 00:36:47,759 Speaker 1: assume that this is calybse remains. You have to you 549 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:51,600 Speaker 1: have to go the full length in order to bring 550 00:36:51,640 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 1: this home. You're gonna want that, and the court is 551 00:36:54,440 --> 00:36:58,399 Speaker 1: going to require it of you, because you know, there's 552 00:36:58,560 --> 00:37:01,080 Speaker 1: there have been charges leveled in this case, both at 553 00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: the mother and and at the grandpa. But one of 554 00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: the one of the most chilling parts to this story, Dave, 555 00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:17,320 Speaker 1: is the fact that, according to what the police are saying, 556 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:30,120 Speaker 1: this Stephen Collins, who is Caleb's dad, Okay, apparently what 557 00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:35,080 Speaker 1: he had been doing was that this is this is 558 00:37:35,120 --> 00:37:38,719 Speaker 1: you know, I mentioned the whole thing about a touch 559 00:37:38,719 --> 00:37:47,560 Speaker 1: of sadism here. Apparently, according to reports, Stephen Collins has 560 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,879 Speaker 1: been accused in you know how I told you that defects. 561 00:37:52,160 --> 00:37:55,040 Speaker 1: Our Department of Family and Children's Services has gotten involved. 562 00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:02,200 Speaker 1: There are court documents that exist that's to treatment of Caleb. 563 00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:06,040 Speaker 1: They talk about and this is the phraseology and I 564 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:14,000 Speaker 1: quote physically abused by torturous remain strike that day in 565 00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:20,760 Speaker 1: three two. This is a statement and I quote quote 566 00:38:20,840 --> 00:38:29,440 Speaker 1: physically abused by torturous means end quote. And how was 567 00:38:29,480 --> 00:38:37,279 Speaker 1: he tortured? Well, apparently what was happening is that this 568 00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: one year old was being bound by Stephen Collins, allegedly 569 00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:50,319 Speaker 1: with rope and beaten. That's in life. That's what these 570 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:58,440 Speaker 1: court documents allege. And he's also accused of insane court 571 00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:04,600 Speaker 1: documents of sending graphic text messages to Wendy Bailey and 572 00:39:04,680 --> 00:39:07,920 Speaker 1: in those text messages he threatened to kill this precious 573 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:14,000 Speaker 1: angel and to just kind of drive this point home, Dave, 574 00:39:16,160 --> 00:39:22,440 Speaker 1: Stephen Collins allegedly sent photos to her of the abuse. 575 00:39:24,320 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: Let that sink in just for a second, Okay, let 576 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:32,560 Speaker 1: that drip down into your ground water everybody of what 577 00:39:32,600 --> 00:39:37,799 Speaker 1: this guy was about allegedly, because it's it's an absolute 578 00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,520 Speaker 1: horror show. I'd like to know what was going on 579 00:39:42,560 --> 00:39:48,479 Speaker 1: with the two year old as well? And because I don't, 580 00:39:48,560 --> 00:39:53,040 Speaker 1: I don't, I don't really understand. First off, if this 581 00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:59,680 Speaker 1: is in court documents, I got questions, was this baby 582 00:39:59,680 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: still in the house? Well, who was named custodian? Grandpa was? 583 00:40:06,960 --> 00:40:09,760 Speaker 1: Guess who was all living under the same roof together, 584 00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 1: all three of these adults, Grandpa, mama, and the Stephen 585 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:21,360 Speaker 1: Collins guy. They're all living together, but yet Collins is 586 00:40:21,400 --> 00:40:25,760 Speaker 1: alleged to have done this to Caleb. I have questions 587 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:32,480 Speaker 1: about this court filing because apparently this is known, this 588 00:40:32,520 --> 00:40:35,839 Speaker 1: is something that's known outside the circle of these individuals 589 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:41,560 Speaker 1: in this home. Well, who allowed this? You know, who's 590 00:40:41,960 --> 00:40:46,560 Speaker 1: who is or was not making visits to this home 591 00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: if this baby was being treated this way. And I 592 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:54,120 Speaker 1: got to tell you, I'm really going to hate. I'm 593 00:40:54,120 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: really going to hate the moment. And I hope it 594 00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,040 Speaker 1: doesn't come that I find out out that anybody outside 595 00:41:02,040 --> 00:41:07,600 Speaker 1: this family has possession of those photographs, somebody in a 596 00:41:07,600 --> 00:41:13,839 Speaker 1: position of authority, because it's horrible, horrible stuff. If any 597 00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,879 Speaker 1: of this stuff is true. Again, this is all speculative 598 00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,359 Speaker 1: at this point in time, but I can tell you this, 599 00:41:22,640 --> 00:41:26,480 Speaker 1: I know speaking for my buddy Dave. We're going to 600 00:41:26,560 --> 00:41:28,239 Speaker 1: keep an eye on this case. We're going to watch 601 00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,920 Speaker 1: this all the way through because I'm vested now. I 602 00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:38,799 Speaker 1: want to try to understand what happened to Caleb. I 603 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,319 Speaker 1: want to understand how he died. I don't think I'll 604 00:41:42,320 --> 00:41:45,160 Speaker 1: ever know the why behind it. You never can know. 605 00:41:45,880 --> 00:41:50,040 Speaker 1: I don't really care about these other people, but you know, 606 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 1: on Body Bags, the people that we advocate for and 607 00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:58,520 Speaker 1: care for are the dead. It's the people that didn't 608 00:41:58,520 --> 00:42:00,880 Speaker 1: have a voice when they were alive, like little Caleb, 609 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:04,399 Speaker 1: and they sure don't have a voice after they're dead. 610 00:42:04,480 --> 00:42:09,800 Speaker 1: But if you know, if it brings me to my knees, 611 00:42:10,480 --> 00:42:12,319 Speaker 1: I am going to speak up for Caleb and we're 612 00:42:12,360 --> 00:42:14,440 Speaker 1: going to talk about him some more. We'll find out 613 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,640 Speaker 1: more information and hopefully in a future episode, we'll be 614 00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:21,040 Speaker 1: getting back to you real soon and maybe we can 615 00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:25,319 Speaker 1: offer an update once there's been a decision about. First off, 616 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:31,680 Speaker 1: who these remains belong to. I'm Josephcott Morgan and this 617 00:42:32,320 --> 00:42:33,360 Speaker 1: is Bodybacks.