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Speaker 1: I think some of what we did waterboarding, for example,

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Speaker 1: was questionable, but preventing a second wave, I think follow

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Speaker 1: on generations will not fully understand what that took and

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Speaker 1: how surprising it was that didn't happen. All it takes

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Speaker 1: is three people to take over some public transportation and

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Speaker 1: it didn't happen. It's incredible, especially since you know, if

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Speaker 1: you look at the three of us, this is the

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Speaker 1: crew you have to work with.

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Speaker 2: I'm John Ceipher and I'm Jerry o'she I served in

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Speaker 2: the CIA's Clandestine Service for twenty eight years, living undercover

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Speaker 2: all around the.

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Speaker 3: World, and in my thirty three years with the CIA,

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Speaker 3: I served in Africa, Asia, Europe, and the Middle East.

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Speaker 2: Although we don't usually look at it this way, we

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Speaker 2: created conspiracies.

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Speaker 3: In our operations. We got people to believe things that

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Speaker 3: weren't true.

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Speaker 2: Now we're investigating the conspiracy theories we see in the

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Speaker 2: news almost every day.

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Speaker 3: We'll break them down for you to determine whether they

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Speaker 3: could be real or whether we're being manipulated.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to me Mission implausible.

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Speaker 4: Hey guys, I've been thinking what my career might have

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Speaker 4: been like if I'd met you when you were active agents,

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Speaker 4: and I was an active international correspondent, and you could

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Speaker 4: have told me lots of secret things. I know, I

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Speaker 4: know you wouldn't have. But I think journalists have this fantasy.

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Speaker 4: Usually in a media organization, there's these conspiracies that the

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Speaker 4: CIA controls us, which we're going to get into in

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Speaker 4: today's show. But the reality is often there is one

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Speaker 4: or two journalists who are known to have good CIA sources.

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Speaker 4: I don't even know what that means because I've never

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Speaker 4: been one of those people. But I think that means

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Speaker 4: like people in the office building, not actual field agents,

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Speaker 4: like high level you know.

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Speaker 3: I think it means they're talking to retired people, or

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Speaker 3: they're trading on information, like you're talking to the Office

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Speaker 3: of Public Affairs, where they say, if you don't publish

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Speaker 3: that story that you somehow got through congressional age of

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Speaker 3: something will If you don't publish it, we'll give you

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Speaker 3: something else for a while. So I think there may

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Speaker 3: be some trading back and forth. From what I've seen,

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Speaker 3: most of the leaks, they seem to come from elected officials,

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Speaker 3: because we take polygraphs every five years, so if we

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Speaker 3: talk to journalists like it'll come out.

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Speaker 2: Well, First of all, Adam, welcome back after boguarding us

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Speaker 2: for several weeks and not joining us and forcing Jerry

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Speaker 2: and I to pull something deep in our soul.

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Speaker 1: To speak about.

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Speaker 2: But sorry to Jerry's point, I never, never, ever, once

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Speaker 2: spoke to a journalist when I worked inside, and I

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Speaker 2: don't think people in our part of the business. I'm

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Speaker 2: sure there's two occasions as possible, you know, or in

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Speaker 2: the old days, people would sit in the bar and

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Speaker 2: be rooted in the fifties or whatever and talk with journalists.

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Speaker 2: But you know, for us, it's best to stay away

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Speaker 2: from journalists. We're not allowed by regulation or law to

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Speaker 2: use them as sources, and so we stayed away from them.

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Speaker 5: And so I think when you.

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Speaker 2: See these people with good CIA sources, it's probably people

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Speaker 2: in the administration who are telling them tidbits that they

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Speaker 2: pick up on, or retired people like I do talk

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Speaker 2: to journals us now. I don't tell them secrets because

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Speaker 2: I don't have secrets.

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Speaker 3: Although I will say from time to time I think

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Speaker 3: I've got a couple of secrets left, really big, juicy

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Speaker 3: secrets I'm not telling anybody. And then I open up

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Speaker 3: The New York Times of the Washington post and I'm like,

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Speaker 3: there's the story, and in fact I read it, I'm like, whoa,

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Speaker 3: I was read into this and I didn't know those

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Speaker 3: details right, So I mean.

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Speaker 2: You know somebody's talking.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, somebody's talking. But it's usually like five or six

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Speaker 5: years later the assets are gone. But it's like wha,

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Speaker 5: Like how did that one get out?

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Speaker 3: And then we'll like call somebody up who was involved

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Speaker 3: in that, and like, man, it's like they got it

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Speaker 3: like eighty percent right, because you never get it quite

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Speaker 3: right well.

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Speaker 2: And the thing is to understand is there's no one

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Speaker 2: in the CIA, for example, who knows all the things

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Speaker 2: that are happening. We're compartmented, like if I was working

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Speaker 2: on Russia stuff, I didn't know what was happening in China,

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Speaker 2: or I might. And it's a large organization with lots

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Speaker 2: of people working on lots of sensitive stuff. Even the

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Speaker 2: director doesn't know the details of lots of operations and

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Speaker 2: things that he needs to be briefed. And he's briefed

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Speaker 2: in general unless he's a deeper dive. So if anyone

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Speaker 2: is trying to say no, no, it's this way, it's

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Speaker 2: that way. Yeah, they might know that in their little

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Speaker 2: cylinder we called cylinders of excellence. You really do as

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Speaker 2: a joke.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: So in our interview, Jerry and I interview an old

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Speaker 2: friend and colleague, Phil Mudd, who was a very senior

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Speaker 2: officer in the CIA but then went over in a

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Speaker 2: senior position in the FBI. He was an analyst but

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Speaker 2: worked on counter terrorism issues. And during our interview, one

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Speaker 2: of the things we talk about is this view out

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Speaker 2: there that the CIA controls things and specifically controls the media.

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Speaker 2: And we talked about in our interview our FKA junior

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Speaker 2: who believes that the CIA was involved potentially in killing

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Speaker 2: his father and he believes the CIA controls the media.

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Speaker 2: I know what's interesting and new since we talked to

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Speaker 2: him is Robert F. Kennedy joined the Trump campaign and

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Speaker 2: there's even talk about his interest in becoming the CIA

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Speaker 2: director in a Trump administration. And so it makes our

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Speaker 2: interview I think more timely.

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Speaker 5: Today. We're fortunate to have Phil Mud on the show.

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Speaker 3: Phil is a long time senior CIA officer and CNN commentator. Phil,

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Speaker 3: you started at CIA as a South Asia, Mid East analyst,

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Speaker 3: and you worked your way up to be a senior

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Speaker 3: analyst for CIA's counter terrorism efforts after nine to eleven

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Speaker 3: where I got to know you and you were even

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Speaker 3: a prime liaison between CIA and the world of intelligence

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Speaker 3: and the FBI and the world of law enforcement, which

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Speaker 3: is pretty special. And then you were with CNN for

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Speaker 3: like almost ten years, right.

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Speaker 1: That's right, Yeah, Alex Righter. It was a lot of fun. Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Inside the agency, you were known for your insightful, fact

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Speaker 3: based analytical skills. You brief presidents and senators and Congress

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Speaker 3: and foreign liaison. So, Phil, it's really.

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Speaker 5: Great to have you here.

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Speaker 1: Thanks, thanks for having me, Phil.

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Speaker 2: So the first question I want to do was sort

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Speaker 2: of a crossover between your experience at the agency and

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Speaker 2: the FBI and the media. On the campaign trail, Robert F.

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Speaker 2: Kennedy Junior has repeatedly stated that the CIA has taken

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Speaker 2: over the American press, the US media, all that's our

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Speaker 2: run by undercover CIA operatives as part of some secret

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Speaker 2: government plot to manipulate American minds. At a recent campaign event,

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Speaker 2: he even said that the new head of npr A

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Speaker 2: is a CIA agent. Got that wrong and that was

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Speaker 2: just the latest selveo. And as you know, the CIA

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Speaker 2: is taking over the American press. He stated on Twitter.

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Speaker 2: The Other Day that the New York Times, the Washington Post, NPR,

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Speaker 2: and even the Daily Beast are under the control of

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Speaker 2: Intelligence agency operatives.

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Speaker 5: Rolling Stone too.

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Speaker 2: And journals like Smithsonian National Geographic appear to be compromised

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Speaker 2: by the CIA. So, Phil, you worked for quite a

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Speaker 2: long time in media after you left the agency. So

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Speaker 2: what is your experience about the intelligence community shaping the news.

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Speaker 1: It's interesting. I have a professional perspective from my years

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Speaker 1: as an analyst and a personal perspective. You can laugh

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Speaker 1: about this stuff, and it is a little it's a

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Speaker 1: little disturbing yourself, so laughable. But I always default initially

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Speaker 1: to my old life as an analyst and wish that

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Speaker 1: people would actually, even if you don't know anything about intelligence,

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Speaker 1: breakdown how this would work if it were true. So

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Speaker 1: you'd have to have a broad conspiracy in the CI,

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Speaker 1: which would involve hundreds of people, none of whom I

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Speaker 1: guess I ever spoken that conspiracy would extend to the

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Speaker 1: leadership of many media organizations. So those media people, who

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Speaker 1: many of who might not be terribly sympathetic to the CI,

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Speaker 1: have agreed to this. Okay, do your multiplication hundreds of

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Speaker 1: people of CI, hundreds of people in leadership positions in media.

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Speaker 1: A lot of those are public companies, so they have

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Speaker 1: to persuade not only their staffs to say, John or

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Speaker 1: Jerry or Phillip is coming in to take over a

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Speaker 1: position that he's a CIA guy and he's secretly subverting

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Speaker 1: the organization. But you'd also have to tell the corporate enterprise,

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Speaker 1: the stakeholders, because these are public companies, you'd have to

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Speaker 1: sell out the stakeholders. Now you're dealing with thousands of people,

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Speaker 1: none of whom has ever spoken. If you do took

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Speaker 1: stats class, one of the best things I ever did

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Speaker 1: in college as an English major was to take a

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Speaker 1: semester of statistics. That's not feasible. But on the personal side,

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Speaker 1: I guess, as a ten year CNN commentator, one of

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Speaker 1: the most interesting jobs I ever had. You're not going

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Speaker 1: to lead this. Let me give you a guess about

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Speaker 1: the number of times CIA Public Affairs in ten years

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Speaker 1: I was on thousands of times, thousands every show on

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Speaker 1: Don Lemon, the morning shows, the afternoon shows, all of them.

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Speaker 1: The number of times in ten years of thousands of

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Speaker 1: appearances that CIA Public Affairs or any CI official call me.

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Speaker 1: I'll give you a guess it's a round figure. I

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Speaker 1: guess it's zero zero. I actually was surprised. I thought

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Speaker 1: they would actually call it once in a while and say,

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Speaker 1: there are some facts you might want to consider in

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Speaker 1: my answer to be well, I don't do facts, but

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Speaker 1: I left government. I was actually a little surprised about it.

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Speaker 1: I think people don't believe that, but I don't know

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Speaker 1: what to say. I think the CIA was afraid I'd

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Speaker 1: get out and say, you know that the CI is

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Speaker 1: trying to influence me or some mean but I was

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Speaker 1: one of the national security commentators for CNN, So anybody

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Speaker 1: who believes is conspiracy my personal experiences. They never called.

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Speaker 1: Never It's like trying to get a Dateton Heights. I

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Speaker 1: never got a call back.

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Speaker 5: Phil Let me contradict you here.

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Speaker 1: Did you call me.

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Speaker 5: Because I think you're wrong.

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Speaker 3: I can think of certainly one one thing where the

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Speaker 3: government did get involved in trying to shape it, and

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Speaker 3: this was when it's all in the press, where the

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Speaker 3: Trump campaign actually worked with the National inquired David Pecker, right,

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Speaker 3: he's admitted this on the stand under. When you're calling

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Speaker 3: that journalism, I'm just saying this is a journalistic at

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Speaker 3: enterprise where they agreed to make up stories about Ted Cruz.

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Speaker 5: They also agreed.

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Speaker 3: To make up stories. So this wasn't CIA doing it. No,

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Speaker 3: No was the CIA's boss. So there is actually an

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Speaker 3: example of this, but it's not the mainstream media.

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Speaker 1: The National Choir had a reputation back in the day.

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Speaker 1: I think they've declined a bit for breaking some of

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Speaker 1: the best Hollywood stories there were. I mean, they were

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Speaker 1: quite rigorous about what they did. But what I'm talking

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Speaker 1: about is before I joined CNN, which was I don't

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Speaker 1: remember in twenty twelve or two thirteen. I did Fox,

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Speaker 1: I did Al Jazeera, I did all of them in

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Speaker 1: CNN offer a paycheck, So I, being a bright analyst,

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Speaker 1: said I'll do that. But I'm not saying it doesn't

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Speaker 1: happen anywhere. I'm saying I had a ten year run

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Speaker 1: of doing a lot of media, and not only did

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Speaker 1: it not happen to me, I never witnessed it. I

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Speaker 1: never heard about it. I sat in the green room

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Speaker 1: at CNN with everybody from CI directors to senators. I

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Speaker 1: was in there a lot with Lindsey Graham back in

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Speaker 1: the day, a lot with the former CI director Michael Hayden.

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Speaker 1: It just never and again, I know people don't believe this.

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Speaker 1: It didn't happen. They CEI didn't call people, didn't try

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Speaker 1: to influence this, and I never heard about this in

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Speaker 1: backroom conversations over cocktails, and believe me, I will drink

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Speaker 1: a cocktail that didn't happen.

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Speaker 2: You hear people say often once an intelligence official, always

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Speaker 2: an intelligence official, or something like that. Essentially, once you retire,

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Speaker 2: the ant wants nothing to do with you. They want

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Speaker 2: nothing to do For several years, I would try to

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Speaker 2: write in if I met somebody interesting or I got something,

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Speaker 2: and I've written a lot of pieces and I've gone

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Speaker 2: TV two.

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Speaker 5: They don't care.

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Speaker 2: There's almost no back and forth.

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Speaker 1: I was assigned as Deputy Director National Security Brands at

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Speaker 1: the FBI in two thousand and five. So I was

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Speaker 1: deputy director of counter Terrorism at CIA, and then when

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Speaker 1: the FBI was under a lot of pressure to do

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Speaker 1: better on domestic intelligence, that is, make sure the next

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Speaker 1: attack doesn't happen. When I moved over to the FBI,

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Speaker 1: almost instantaneously people at the CI head coders were like,

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Speaker 1: you don't work here. I tried to do some joint

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Speaker 1: training between the FBI agents and the CIA. The response

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Speaker 1: I won't name the officer whom you both know, but

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Speaker 1: was basically not only no, but FU were not doing

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Speaker 1: this in that case. I was talking about doing interrogation training,

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Speaker 1: which I learned a lot at the FED. The FBI

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Speaker 1: is very good at interrogations, not the things that were

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Speaker 1: done at our black sites, but they are very good.

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Speaker 1: So I thought, why don't we do some of this jointly?

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Speaker 1: And the answer I got again was FU. So to

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Speaker 1: support your point, people think that there's a closed society

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Speaker 1: and that when you leave there's a secret circle. It

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Speaker 1: was almost the reverse. Get the hell out of here,

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Speaker 1: don't call us, and don't let the door hit you

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Speaker 1: on the way out. If I could just a great

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Speaker 1: story about that. I quit when I was forty eight.

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Speaker 1: I did not resign, which cost me a life lot

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Speaker 1: of retirement money and not maybe not the smartest move

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Speaker 1: I ever made. But I went to hand in my

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Speaker 1: badge at CI, and I had told Director Moller, the

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Speaker 1: FBI director whom I worked for in the CIA, I'm

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Speaker 1: not doing any events. I want out. I'm out, So

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Speaker 1: I wanted to you got to hand in your badge

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Speaker 1: and you sign a bunch of documents saying I agree.

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Speaker 1: I'll never speak to podcasts about the secret things I

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Speaker 1: learned about. But I double parked going in because at

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Speaker 1: that point there was a lot of hiring and the

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Speaker 1: CI parking lot was so full. So I'm like, it's

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Speaker 1: going to take twenty minutes. I go out. There's a SPO,

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Speaker 1: a security protective officer, a CI cop at my car.

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Speaker 1: He's like, you're double parked. I gotta give a ticket.

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Speaker 1: Where's your badge? On my twenty four years it's the

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Speaker 1: only day on the headquarters compound. I thought he was

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Speaker 1: going to put me in a handcuffs. I don't have

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Speaker 1: a badge. I just I didn't resign turn it in.

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Speaker 1: I resigned. So he said, thank you, get out of

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Speaker 1: here and don't go back here.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a break.

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Speaker 5: We'll be right back.

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Speaker 3: And Rebecca phil I'm going to return to this thing

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Speaker 3: because the question really is about what I think to

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Speaker 3: be respectable mainstream media people, journalists who don't come at

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Speaker 3: things with quite so much of a of a bias,

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Speaker 3: and you know, New York Times, Washington Post.

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Speaker 5: Maybe some small bias, but they are real journalists.

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Speaker 1: I also would say there's a difference between a conspiracy

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Speaker 1: theory and what I witnessed the media. The media wants

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Speaker 1: to make a story. So it's your responsibility, as a reader,

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Speaker 1: a listener, a watcher to say, I'm going to look

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Speaker 1: at I mean to every day I look at the

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Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal, I look at BBC, I look at

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Speaker 1: the New York Times, I look at whatever else shows

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Speaker 1: up on my feed to try to get a constellation

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Speaker 1: of perspectives. Because even if you trust a journalist, and

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Speaker 1: I have done a million New York Times interviews in

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Speaker 1: my life, like all of us, a journalist is going

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Speaker 1: to have a perspective. Sure they like President Trump, they

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Speaker 1: don't like President Trump. All of us have biases. That's

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Speaker 1: different than going in saying actually the World Trade Center

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Speaker 1: was an inside hit job, which would require an epic

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Speaker 1: belief that tens of thousands of people knew that and

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Speaker 1: none of them ever went to CNN or NBC or

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Speaker 1: Fox and spilled it. I mean, I had biases when

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Speaker 1: I was on CNN, I knew him. I Mike, you're

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Speaker 1: paying me to comment, But again, you shouldn't watch me alone.

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Speaker 1: You should, you probably should, but maybe you should watch

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Speaker 1: some Fox people. Make sure you read the Wall Street Journal.

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Speaker 1: It's very well written. Read the New York Times. BBC

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Speaker 1: is great because they give you a European perspective. Al

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Speaker 1: Jazeera is interesting. Read it and sort through yourself.

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Speaker 2: So, Phil, you're one of the few people who worked

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Speaker 2: in senior positions at both CIA and FBI. What perceptions

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Speaker 2: and misperceptions did you find those organizations have about each other?

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Speaker 2: And then you know then the same questions of the media,

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Speaker 2: like what are the perceptions miss perceptions amongst those various organizations.

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Speaker 1: I was at the senior levels like Director Moller, Robert Mueller,

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Speaker 1: who was obviously known for the rest of investigation, but

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Speaker 1: was the director when I was at the FBI. I

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Speaker 1: was his intelligence advisor. I saw him as often as

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Speaker 1: four times a day at that level. Relationship with the

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Speaker 1: CI is excellent. He and George Tennant were great friends.

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Speaker 1: They used to go out to dinner all the time.

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Speaker 1: At that point. It's called Mahogany row at the FBI.

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Speaker 1: When you're on your Mahogany row, your job is to

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Speaker 1: make things work the further you move down into junior ranks,

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Speaker 1: and I suspect this is the same in corporate America.

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Speaker 1: I do a lot of consulting. You can get me

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Speaker 1: on Philip mud at gmail dot com. But the further

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Speaker 1: you go down, the more prejudice you see. FBI. That

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Speaker 1: guy I'm talking to the CI, he's using a fake name.

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Speaker 1: I can't trust him. He's a liar, he's a cheat.

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Speaker 1: His job is to flip people. CI. That guy's basically

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Speaker 1: a reform copy. Doesn't know anything about the world. He

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Speaker 1: doesn't know anything about anything sophisticated beyond putting handcuffs on people.

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Speaker 1: I was actually quite disappointed with the CIA when I

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Speaker 1: left at some of what I saw. But they both

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Speaker 1: had great strengths and great weaknesses. The CIA is very agile,

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Speaker 1: They move fast. They are huge risk takers. Partly remember

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Speaker 1: they're dealing in an environment where they don't have to

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Speaker 1: go in front of a court of law. So you

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Speaker 1: can break laws, you can steal a laptop, you can

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Speaker 1: lie to somebody which is I'm a CI officer. That's

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Speaker 1: fine in terms of agilly, fast moving, and you'll look

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Speaker 1: at how quickly they were into Afghanistan after nine to eleven.

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Speaker 1: Great talent. There are some smart fing people there. The

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Speaker 1: FBI is slower moving, but far more consistent about guidelines.

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Speaker 1: They have to go in front of a quart of

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Speaker 1: Wall much more management oriented in a good way. How

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Speaker 1: do you put a process into place to make sure

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Speaker 1: you do this properly? We did not do process at

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Speaker 1: the CIA. Much better training, I thought at the FBI.

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Speaker 1: I thought in terms of talent, they also had quite

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Speaker 1: good talent at the senior levels, but stultified CI agility

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Speaker 1: meant that it was difficult to manage. People would tell

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Speaker 1: the director, knowing that sometimes they shouldn't have. The FBI

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Speaker 1: was the reverse. I would joke around with Director Malo, which,

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Speaker 1: let me tell you, was not the easiest thing to do.

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Speaker 1: People treated him like he was made of marble. That

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Speaker 1: wouldn't happen at the CIA. You do not walk into

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Speaker 1: the CI director and say yes, or you say no,

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Speaker 1: we're not doing that. That's wrong. You don't do that.

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Speaker 1: The FBI said both had great strikes and great weaknesses.

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Speaker 1: I'd close by saying I wish they could have learned

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Speaker 1: more from each other, because they certainly could have.

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Speaker 3: Considering per Robert F. Kennedy Junior, we control the media.

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Speaker 3: I have to say, in my thirty three years at

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Speaker 3: the agency, I never not once talked to a journalist.

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Speaker 1: John.

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Speaker 3: I don't think you have either, Phil did you ever have.

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Speaker 3: Did you have any media experience, any exposure to the

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Speaker 3: media when you.

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Speaker 2: Were an anrest For Pete's sake, Dre, they're out there

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Speaker 2: on that time.

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Speaker 5: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Actually, George Tennant was a big personality, the former CI director.

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Speaker 1: He had his head of public Affairs, Bill Harlotte, wanted

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Speaker 1: the agency CI to have a voice. After nine to eleven,

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Speaker 1: the story of the CIA became the story of des Moines.

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Speaker 1: What the CIA did wasn't just secret stuff. It affected

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Speaker 1: whether what happened with getting on an airplane in Iowa,

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Speaker 1: it happened with alerts in California. So I think there

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Speaker 1: was a sense, and maybe I'm being too apologetic, that

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Speaker 1: we had a responsibility to speak to more people across

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Speaker 1: America about what we did, because countering al Qaiedo was America.

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Speaker 1: So Bill Harlowe said, you got to talk to the

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Speaker 1: New York Times, Washington Post, and then my first on

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Speaker 1: camera interview it was Tom Brokaw, and I was so scared.

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Speaker 1: He was so nice, but I was petrified. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: CEI wanted to put itself out and then when I

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Speaker 1: got to the FBI, they did the same. We want

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Speaker 1: to show that we're entering the intelligence world. So we're

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Speaker 1: going to make you go talk to BBC and everybody else.

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Speaker 1: Funny story. I did this through public affairs and a

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Speaker 1: really aggressive producer. This really pissed me off from I

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Speaker 1: forget NBCCBSAB one of them, a really aggressive producer, came

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Speaker 1: in with public affairs to do an interview that they

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Speaker 1: had requested through public affairs. So we're going out from

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Speaker 1: my office again on Mahogany Road, the seventh floor, the

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Speaker 1: Director's floor at the FBI, and this lady I could

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Speaker 1: if I were signed, we'd have an issue today. I

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Speaker 1: never talked to her again after this said I forgot

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Speaker 1: my purse in your office. I said, okay, I'll take

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Speaker 1: you back there, you pick up, we get back there.

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Speaker 1: I didn't forget my purse. This going through public affairs

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Speaker 1: is ridiculous. You need to talk to me directly, and

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Speaker 1: I'm like, you cannot be serious. So you just lied

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Speaker 1: to me in an effort to make me do something

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Speaker 1: that not only violates the ethics of the FBI and

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Speaker 1: the CI, but also could get me fired. I don't

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Speaker 1: want to pretend like I'm holier than now, but she

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Speaker 1: really pissed me off because we're taught in those environments.

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Speaker 1: You don't do that right, So long answer, But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I did a lot of media, which is how I

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Speaker 1: got into CNN after I left, But it was all

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Speaker 1: through public affairs, and believe me, that was enough.

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Speaker 2: To turn it back to RFK stuff Again. He talked

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Speaker 2: about the CIA controlling the media, but he's also talked

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Speaker 2: a lot about a thing he calls Operation mocking Bird.

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Speaker 2: And I know if you're familiar with that or not,

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Speaker 2: it's a conspiracy theory. And he says for years, through

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Speaker 2: Operation mocking Bird, the CIA secretly recruited journalists to help

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Speaker 2: brainwash Americans. And he said Operation Mockingbird is alive and

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Speaker 2: well today and their job is to propagandize the American people.

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Speaker 5: So, Phil, we want to know what you were recruited

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Speaker 5: into Operation.

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Speaker 1: I was twenty four. CNN recruited me. Yes, you know

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Speaker 1: again going back to I always go back to my

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Speaker 1: analysts hat and ask people to do your mathematics. If

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Speaker 1: that's true, that means that there are thousands of people

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Speaker 1: who are aware of this over the years. Those thousands

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Speaker 1: of people, not a single one of whom has ever

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Speaker 1: told their story. I can see how people who are

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Speaker 1: having a beer say yeah, see I recruit. It's also illegal,

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Speaker 1: which means the Inspector General is to see and as

436
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:32,840
Speaker 1: we all know around this table, the Inspector General is

437
00:20:33,040 --> 00:20:37,080
Speaker 1: to brutal, brutal, they will kick your ass and then

438
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,360
Speaker 1: say how about now I take a bat to your head.

439
00:20:40,640 --> 00:20:44,000
Speaker 1: So they never inspected that. The Congress never looked at

440
00:20:44,000 --> 00:20:46,679
Speaker 1: that after they found and that Congress is perfectly happy

441
00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:49,520
Speaker 1: also to kick your ass. And the thousands of people

442
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,000
Speaker 1: in the media, none of them has ever come out

443
00:20:52,000 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 1: with data about this, which would be a terrific story.

444
00:20:55,880 --> 00:20:59,639
Speaker 3: And it would be people's their financial wellbeing and their reputation.

445
00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:02,000
Speaker 3: Is No, I'm going to turn down this pulletzer and

446
00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:05,199
Speaker 3: this huge promotion I can get by saying yes to

447
00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:10,200
Speaker 3: this CIA guy who's offered me three hundred bucks a month, right, manipulating.

448
00:21:09,720 --> 00:21:12,120
Speaker 1: How do you come up with all these people who

449
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:14,520
Speaker 1: might have declined those approaches. None of them ever spoke.

450
00:21:14,600 --> 00:21:17,760
Speaker 1: They're scared, really, after how many times the CI's been

451
00:21:17,800 --> 00:21:19,160
Speaker 1: crushing the media, they're scared.

452
00:21:19,440 --> 00:21:22,040
Speaker 2: Jarry and I were texting before the show and he

453
00:21:22,080 --> 00:21:23,800
Speaker 2: put it really well. He says, you know we have

454
00:21:23,800 --> 00:21:25,880
Speaker 2: the aides there always be accused of running so many

455
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 2: confluent and contradictory conspiracies that I don't know when we'd

456
00:21:29,280 --> 00:21:31,399
Speaker 2: have time to go to the ground floor Starbucks, the

457
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,960
Speaker 2: ten staff meetings, do performance review or gasp, even conduct

458
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,840
Speaker 2: espionage related activity against iss North Korea.

459
00:21:37,880 --> 00:21:40,760
Speaker 1: To the comment, especially back early after nine to eleven,

460
00:21:40,960 --> 00:21:45,000
Speaker 1: people would talk about their phones being listened to. I'm like, okay, yeah,

461
00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:47,680
Speaker 1: there is three hundred and thirty million Americans who's talking

462
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 1: about cheating on their wife going to McDonald's, who's listening.

463
00:21:52,160 --> 00:21:57,000
Speaker 1: And I'm sorry to make your life seem less and significant,

464
00:21:57,720 --> 00:22:01,879
Speaker 1: but if you're banging your secretary, nobody cares. Your wife cares.

465
00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:03,000
Speaker 1: But that's about it.

466
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 3: So, Phil, I'm going to ask you to cast your

467
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 3: mind back and see if I'm the only one that

468
00:22:06,840 --> 00:22:11,120
Speaker 3: remembers this. So this is twenty ten, twenty eleven, and

469
00:22:11,160 --> 00:22:13,520
Speaker 3: there was a guy by the name of Michael.

470
00:22:13,240 --> 00:22:15,480
Speaker 5: Furlong and he was not an agency guy.

471
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:17,760
Speaker 1: He was Doddia.

472
00:22:18,320 --> 00:22:21,160
Speaker 3: He came to the agency and I was in this

473
00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 3: meeting and I think you were in CTC at the time,

474
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:27,119
Speaker 3: and he says, I got this great idea. We're running

475
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:31,160
Speaker 3: with this former CIA guy, Dewey Clarice, who's an agent's

476
00:22:31,320 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 3: infamous agency guy, and he says, to get garner intelligence

477
00:22:36,760 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 3: in Afghanistan and Iraq. We are going out and we

478
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:47,760
Speaker 3: are basically recruiting journalists and stringers and people who helped journalists,

479
00:22:48,359 --> 00:22:50,840
Speaker 3: and we've hired all these guys and so like when

480
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 3: a New York Times journalist comes out, he's got to

481
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,679
Speaker 3: get a fixer and a guy who, like you can

482
00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:58,600
Speaker 3: translate for him. And we're hiring those guys. And he said,

483
00:22:58,640 --> 00:23:00,800
Speaker 3: Peter Bergen can co talk to been lied and next

484
00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:02,439
Speaker 3: time he does that, we're going to kill him. And

485
00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:06,200
Speaker 3: I remember sitting in this meeting going we're not allowed to.

486
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:08,880
Speaker 1: Do this with illegal This isn't illegal.

487
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:10,440
Speaker 3: And yeah, and so this went up the this went

488
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:13,359
Speaker 3: up the chain and reported this meeting, and Furulong went up.

489
00:23:13,440 --> 00:23:16,760
Speaker 3: Not only was he fired for this idea but DD

490
00:23:17,240 --> 00:23:18,520
Speaker 3: but he went up on charges.

491
00:23:18,560 --> 00:23:20,120
Speaker 5: I don't know if he was ever found guilty.

492
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:26,480
Speaker 3: People don't realize the incredible like partition between the world

493
00:23:26,480 --> 00:23:29,080
Speaker 3: of journalism and the world of intelligence that we maintained.

494
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,400
Speaker 5: But that really underlined for me just how serious.

495
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:35,760
Speaker 2: Philly you served really in the middle of the counter

496
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 2: terrorism fight. Both at CIA and FBI, Like, looking back

497
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,760
Speaker 2: at it, how do you think we, the US government

498
00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:47,080
Speaker 2: or we either the CI FBI did in retrospect.

499
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:47,359
Speaker 5: Over those years.

500
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,919
Speaker 1: Look, there's a lot of noise. Did we treat prisoners appropriately?

501
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,800
Speaker 1: Were there questions about American values? I've got those. I

502
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,400
Speaker 1: wrote a few books when I've gone on tour their

503
00:23:56,440 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 1: appropriate questions. These are questions about American values. If you

504
00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:02,679
Speaker 1: had gone out on September eleventh in two thousand and

505
00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,119
Speaker 1: one and said, after the attacks, there will not be

506
00:24:06,160 --> 00:24:08,919
Speaker 1: another one of these events, you're going to get fewer

507
00:24:08,960 --> 00:24:11,439
Speaker 1: than ten percent of Americans who would say that. The

508
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:15,800
Speaker 1: Fact is that nobody believed in an open society a

509
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:18,400
Speaker 1: second attack could be stopped, and as we know from

510
00:24:18,440 --> 00:24:21,320
Speaker 1: the intelligence collection, it was planning for a second attack,

511
00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:24,119
Speaker 1: what we call the second wave, and it didn't happen.

512
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: There's a lot of kids who have parents and a

513
00:24:26,760 --> 00:24:30,600
Speaker 1: lot of parents who have kids today because of aggressive

514
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:33,840
Speaker 1: and maybe sometimes I would agree with this hyper aggressive

515
00:24:33,920 --> 00:24:38,160
Speaker 1: counter terrorism operations, but the second wave never happened. I

516
00:24:38,240 --> 00:24:42,040
Speaker 1: think some of what we did waterboarding, for example, was questionable,

517
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: but preventing a second wave, I think follow on generations

518
00:24:46,840 --> 00:24:51,720
Speaker 1: will not fully understand what that took and how surprising

519
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 1: it was that didn't happen. All it takes is three

520
00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:58,919
Speaker 1: people to take over some public transportation and it didn't happen.

521
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 1: It's incredible, especially since you know, if you look at

522
00:25:02,200 --> 00:25:04,320
Speaker 1: the three of us, this is the crew you have

523
00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: to work with.

524
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:07,520
Speaker 5: That's a miracle.

525
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,199
Speaker 3: Then, oh my god, when you go into town and

526
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:14,160
Speaker 3: you're at the piggled Wiggledy. How do you see people

527
00:25:14,200 --> 00:25:18,399
Speaker 3: thinking of mainstream media as like a singular organism, as

528
00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:21,399
Speaker 3: opposed to can of worms compeding worms.

529
00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:22,840
Speaker 5: What's your sense of it.

530
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: That's a good question. I'm going to We've been joking

531
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 1: a lot, but I'm going to give you a serious answer.

532
00:25:27,840 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: I'm a little surprised in the age of fragmented media

533
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,280
Speaker 1: and people's ability to find whatever they want on the

534
00:25:33,280 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 1: Internet about how much leadership matters. If you tell people

535
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:37,880
Speaker 1: you can't trust media, if you tell them you can't

536
00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 1: trust the church, if you tell them you can't trust

537
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:43,280
Speaker 1: the police, if you say it a thousand times, they

538
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:45,960
Speaker 1: will believe it from people that they believe in. I

539
00:25:46,000 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: don't talk about what I did here with CNN because

540
00:25:48,680 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 1: partly because it's boring, but also I think a lot

541
00:25:51,680 --> 00:25:54,240
Speaker 1: of people would not like it. Where I live now,

542
00:25:54,560 --> 00:25:56,880
Speaker 1: the conversations that I have, and I've been out here

543
00:25:56,880 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 1: almost a quarter century, avoid that. We talk about the other,

544
00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,919
Speaker 1: about how your tomatoes are doing, about how the cows

545
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:06,560
Speaker 1: are doing. There's a lot of conversation out here about prices,

546
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:09,840
Speaker 1: about cost of living, and I think most of them

547
00:26:09,880 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 1: know what my background is. I've had a few people

548
00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:15,040
Speaker 1: just drive up randomly and park and ask me about life,

549
00:26:15,080 --> 00:26:18,120
Speaker 1: but we avoid it and try to stick with every

550
00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 1: day all American stuff. It's not fake though, It's not

551
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 1: like purposely, It's more like, what's important here is we

552
00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: haven't had rain in a while. That's a problem where

553
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,840
Speaker 1: I live. What's important here is what are you doing

554
00:26:29,920 --> 00:26:32,840
Speaker 1: for the town fair? The town fair is coming up

555
00:26:32,840 --> 00:26:35,199
Speaker 1: in a few weeks. People are interested in that. I

556
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: think the problem is really basic, and that is Ronald

557
00:26:39,520 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 1: Reagan taught people to say there's a shining city on

558
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,520
Speaker 1: a hill, and part of my interpretation to that is

559
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,119
Speaker 1: a politicians' responsibility is to say we can do better.

560
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:50,720
Speaker 1: That's a vote leader. I'm going to lead people to

561
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: a better place. We have vote followers who will say

562
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:57,080
Speaker 1: if the followers want a conspiracy theory and that gets

563
00:26:57,080 --> 00:27:00,560
Speaker 1: me elected. I will go lower. Look at the terms

564
00:27:00,560 --> 00:27:03,200
Speaker 1: of office for congressmen and senators over the last two

565
00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: hundred years. We used to have citizen politicians. We now

566
00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:11,960
Speaker 1: have politicians citizens politicians who have never had a job

567
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,920
Speaker 1: and they can't afford to lose an election. So I

568
00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: think there's a lot of vote followers and not a

569
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,480
Speaker 1: lot of vote leaders. Ron Rayrio, I thought was a

570
00:27:19,520 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: vote leader. I used to like Lindsay Graham. He's a

571
00:27:22,080 --> 00:27:24,840
Speaker 1: vote follower. He's a smart guy, he's actually, behind the scenes,

572
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 1: a nice guy. He's a vote follower.

573
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:28,880
Speaker 2: There's a public perception there's a lot of a text

574
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,040
Speaker 2: at the FBI out there now that the FBI is

575
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 2: up to no good and they're deeply involved in politics.

576
00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 2: How do you process that?

577
00:27:35,760 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: I find it interesting, going back to as an analysis,

578
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: just I do facts. As you look at most of

579
00:27:40,840 --> 00:27:43,560
Speaker 1: what the FBI does, especially things like white collar crime,

580
00:27:43,640 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 1: gang violence, human trafficking. They do some drug work, a

581
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,199
Speaker 1: lot of counter terrorism work, obviously counterintelligence work. The sliver

582
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:55,800
Speaker 1: that America sees with a political hat on is like minuscule.

583
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:57,600
Speaker 1: When I was at the Bureau, we'd get in at

584
00:27:57,840 --> 00:27:59,760
Speaker 1: like six thirty in the morning. The first briefing was

585
00:27:59,800 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 1: with the director Malreate. I think it was seven fifteen, so

586
00:28:02,119 --> 00:28:03,719
Speaker 1: that was counter terrors and briefing. Then you go down

587
00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,720
Speaker 1: and talk to the attorney general. I was there with

588
00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:08,560
Speaker 1: three attorneys general, one Republican and two Democrats. And then

589
00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 1: you go up to the staff meeting. So there's like

590
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 1: a two and a half hours where I'm watching the

591
00:28:12,000 --> 00:28:14,719
Speaker 1: inner workings of the FBI. As a CIA guy, the

592
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: political stuff, like political investigations were just minuscule. So I

593
00:28:19,680 --> 00:28:23,000
Speaker 1: go back to people and say, when you're thinking about

594
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,680
Speaker 1: white collar crime like Enron back in the day, or

595
00:28:25,840 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: people cheating on stock dealing in Manhattan today, or you're

596
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 1: thinking about drug trafficking, human trafficking, if you're thinking about

597
00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 1: political corruption in the sense of somebody at a city

598
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 1: council getting paid off for a contract, do you not

599
00:28:38,560 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: want that to happen? And what percentage of what the

600
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:44,000
Speaker 1: FBI does do you think is hitting your inbox? That's

601
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,920
Speaker 1: one tenth of one percent. The FBI people I dealt

602
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 1: with like, we wear blue suits and white shirts and

603
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 1: blue ties, and we want to make sure America is

604
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,160
Speaker 1: better because we got two kids, and we live in Peoria.

605
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: They were great. I just it's again, leadership has allowed

606
00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: people to believe that your institutions are corrupt. It's just

607
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:01,080
Speaker 1: not what I saw.

608
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 3: Okay, let's take a break from the craziness just for

609
00:29:04,640 --> 00:29:05,320
Speaker 3: a minute.

610
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 1: Or two, and we're back.

611
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 3: Phil touching on that and looking into the future maybe

612
00:29:18,240 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 3: just a bit. We have seen a lot in the

613
00:29:20,360 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 3: press about now people on one side of the aisle saying,

614
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:29,840
Speaker 3: either civilly or criminally, we are coming after civil servants

615
00:29:30,320 --> 00:29:34,680
Speaker 3: or particular people. You've got Jim Jordan, You've got Steve Bannon.

616
00:29:34,720 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 3: They're naming names, and they're not saying they've done anything wrong.

617
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 3: They're simply saying, we're coming for you, and without a

618
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,440
Speaker 3: predicate right, without a reason, we are gonna do this.

619
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 3: And of course, with the Supreme Court recently saying that

620
00:29:47,520 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 3: the Executive can now talk to the DOJ and it's

621
00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:53,480
Speaker 3: protected right, which whereas before if the White House said

622
00:29:53,560 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 3: I want you to go prosecute that guy, certainly, at

623
00:29:56,120 --> 00:29:58,920
Speaker 3: least since the KNDy administration, you couldn't do that. What's

624
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 3: your sense of the institution of the FBI and DOJ.

625
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:04,800
Speaker 3: How would that look if we went down that road.

626
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,480
Speaker 1: My first question is who's the leader of that agency.

627
00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 1: Is that agency more beholden to the White House or

628
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: to the workforce. This will be a time when presidential

629
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: nominations of Secretary of Defense, secretary or State ci director,

630
00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: FBI director are really important because if there's pressure, those

631
00:30:20,480 --> 00:30:23,200
Speaker 1: people have to absorb the pressure. I can say this

632
00:30:23,280 --> 00:30:27,120
Speaker 1: may be too personal, but years ago President Trump got

633
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,400
Speaker 1: on his Twitter feed and suggested that he would remove

634
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: my security clearance.

635
00:30:31,560 --> 00:30:32,000
Speaker 5: That's right.

636
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,000
Speaker 1: Let me tell you whether it's a Democrat or Republican.

637
00:30:35,080 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: If you have somebody of that authority attacking at that

638
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 1: point a private citizen, that citizen has to pay attention

639
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,840
Speaker 1: to his security. I had to think about my father

640
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: was agent, whether to move him out of my house

641
00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: because of the hate mail is getting At a personal level,

642
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: I don't think American citizens recognize when the government comes

643
00:30:54,200 --> 00:30:57,239
Speaker 1: after people what it does. I'm not saying this is

644
00:30:57,360 --> 00:30:59,640
Speaker 1: Republicans are bad or Democrats. I'm saying there is a

645
00:30:59,680 --> 00:31:02,200
Speaker 1: one to one percent fringe that will take that and

646
00:31:02,240 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: say you need to fucking die. I did. I don't

647
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 1: know if I've ever said this publicly. Pursue One case

648
00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:12,520
Speaker 1: of a death threat and he's pled guilty. The guy

649
00:31:12,600 --> 00:31:16,080
Speaker 1: said he wanted to kill me, and my answer was off,

650
00:31:16,600 --> 00:31:19,360
Speaker 1: I'm going to court. And his lawyer was pissed off

651
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 1: because I said I'm not doing it anymore. I got

652
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,120
Speaker 1: a lot of hate mail. But my point is, I

653
00:31:25,160 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 1: don't think people recognize that there's a fringe of America

654
00:31:28,960 --> 00:31:32,240
Speaker 1: that doesn't react like them, that says I'm taking that personally.

655
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,280
Speaker 1: And when the government comes after Jim or John or

656
00:31:34,360 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 1: Joe or Mary, that person says I'm going after him too.

657
00:31:38,720 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 1: That the hate in this country what I witnessed when

658
00:31:41,640 --> 00:31:45,480
Speaker 1: I was at CNN was incredible. People will say anything

659
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 1: on email. Hope you die of cancer, I hope your

660
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:48,800
Speaker 1: family dies of cancer.

661
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,120
Speaker 2: When you talk about the leadership protecting the people under them,

662
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 2: and there's a lot of talk now after the Supreme

663
00:31:55,240 --> 00:31:58,520
Speaker 2: Court immunity decision that, for example, if you give the

664
00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 2: military illegal orders, people will refuse that illegal order. I

665
00:32:02,320 --> 00:32:06,120
Speaker 2: worry that we can't count on honorable people refusing illegal orders.

666
00:32:06,160 --> 00:32:09,280
Speaker 2: We've seen for Judge Bork in the Saturday Night masker

667
00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:11,920
Speaker 2: under Nixon, or Justin Clark in the twenty twenty election.

668
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,280
Speaker 2: If you Phil mutter an honorable guy, and you refuse

669
00:32:15,320 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 2: an order, they'll just go to the next guy and

670
00:32:17,680 --> 00:32:20,160
Speaker 2: he'll refuse the order. If someone is going to do

671
00:32:20,760 --> 00:32:21,600
Speaker 2: the illegal.

672
00:32:21,280 --> 00:32:23,880
Speaker 1: Ad I think that's right. I thought that Supreme Court

673
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,480
Speaker 1: allowed a tremendous amount of latitude. I went back to

674
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties and campus unrest. If you order police

675
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:34,320
Speaker 1: to shoot on campus protesters who are nonviolent. As a

676
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,600
Speaker 1: non lawyer, it's not clear to me that someone would

677
00:32:36,640 --> 00:32:40,600
Speaker 1: say that's a presidential order, go shoot on protesters as

678
00:32:40,640 --> 00:32:44,040
Speaker 1: they did in the nineteen sixties, Go shoot on protesters

679
00:32:44,320 --> 00:32:48,120
Speaker 1: at Kent State and that's covered, is it really? Or

680
00:32:48,160 --> 00:32:51,240
Speaker 1: would you say that's actually an illegitimate order so therefore

681
00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 1: it's don't I don't know.

682
00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 3: People probably wouldn't give a direct order, although apparently Trump

683
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,160
Speaker 3: tried to like to go shoot protesters, just shoot him

684
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 3: in the leg right, I think it would be much

685
00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:03,160
Speaker 3: more likely and in our world have rid me of

686
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 3: this troublesome priest right right now, you know, So I

687
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:09,160
Speaker 3: do want it to just touch on. I think the

688
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,520
Speaker 3: press will be if we go Downnate Avenue, which I'm

689
00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:14,280
Speaker 3: really hopeful that we don't. The press, the media that

690
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:16,800
Speaker 3: we're talking about is going to be one of the

691
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 3: really important things. Right, If people start getting prosecuted without

692
00:33:20,520 --> 00:33:23,280
Speaker 3: a real predicate, we're really going to need the press.

693
00:33:23,640 --> 00:33:25,840
Speaker 3: And I want to come back where we started off

694
00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 3: real briefly to RFK. So, Phil, you said that conspiracy

695
00:33:31,360 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 3: theories often contain a kernel of truth, and that's that's

696
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,160
Speaker 3: almost always the best one. Yeah, right, And so RFK

697
00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:41,040
Speaker 3: his Operation mocking Bird, and I invite the audience to

698
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:43,440
Speaker 3: take a look. There really was an Operation mocking Bird

699
00:33:43,560 --> 00:33:47,800
Speaker 3: in the US, and it involved illegal orders. This is

700
00:33:47,840 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 3: in nineteen sixty two, right, So this is sixty friggin

701
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 3: years ago, President Kennedy. So, RFK Junior's uncle ordered CIA,

702
00:33:58,120 --> 00:34:02,760
Speaker 3: and I think illegally and shameful, to monitor two US

703
00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:07,360
Speaker 3: journalists who were publishing classified information that they were getting

704
00:34:07,400 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 3: from leakers, and his own father, RFK approved this order,

705
00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:17,960
Speaker 3: and for less than a year, CIA bugged to journalists

706
00:34:18,239 --> 00:34:19,960
Speaker 3: and it went into the Crown Jewels, right. It was

707
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 3: the Crown Jewels being like the great mistakes that the

708
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:25,680
Speaker 3: CIA have made that come out in the seventies at

709
00:34:25,719 --> 00:34:28,000
Speaker 3: the Church Commission, and it became one of the great

710
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:31,440
Speaker 3: shameful things that the CIA has done, and Apparently Operation

711
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:35,439
Speaker 3: Mockingberg was very successful because Kennedy was able to find

712
00:34:35,480 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 3: out who was feeding these two journalists. It was like

713
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 3: mostly politicians. It was senators and congressmen.

714
00:34:42,080 --> 00:34:43,799
Speaker 2: I think there's an assumption on some of these things

715
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,600
Speaker 2: that leaking is coming from the intelligence community. That's my

716
00:34:46,640 --> 00:34:49,840
Speaker 2: guess is ninety percent of leaks are coming from inside

717
00:34:49,840 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 2: the administration or the Congress. People who are interested in

718
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 2: a specific policy outcome leak things.

719
00:34:55,640 --> 00:34:58,240
Speaker 1: You leak things because you have an interest in a policy.

720
00:34:58,440 --> 00:35:00,640
Speaker 1: There's also a lot of personal I don't like that guy.

721
00:35:01,040 --> 00:35:03,279
Speaker 5: Scor Settlee. People may not realize it.

722
00:35:03,400 --> 00:35:05,160
Speaker 3: I think we need to put out there as agency

723
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 3: officers in the Intelligence Committee, every five years we take

724
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:11,239
Speaker 3: a polygraph and that's one of the things they ask us, like,

725
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 3: we get fired with do that unlike congressmen and others.

726
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:16,919
Speaker 1: Yes, I did. Thankfully I'm out of that business because

727
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: I think the President Trump, if he comes back, I

728
00:35:19,520 --> 00:35:21,400
Speaker 1: can't take away my security clearance because I don't think

729
00:35:21,440 --> 00:35:21,960
Speaker 1: I do.

730
00:35:22,920 --> 00:35:25,200
Speaker 5: Yeah. I think he's threatened to talk to Yeah. Yeah.

731
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,360
Speaker 2: A guy who couldn't get a security clearance on his

732
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 2: own is claiming to take away ours.

733
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,880
Speaker 3: So Phil, why do you think a lot of people

734
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 3: are inclined to believe that an organization like the CIA

735
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 3: controls the liberal media or the mainstream media. I mean,

736
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 3: what is it about CIA or the liberal media that

737
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 3: makes this of interest to them? And why do you

738
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:45,279
Speaker 3: think they believe it?

739
00:35:45,480 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: I think there's a couple basic things. Number one, black box,

740
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:50,879
Speaker 1: I don't know what the CIA is, and so there's

741
00:35:50,880 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 1: an interesting conspiracy theory out there the CI is involved,

742
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:58,279
Speaker 1: those people are not real Americans. There's spies in Istanbul,

743
00:35:58,440 --> 00:36:02,040
Speaker 1: or Tehran or or Mosque. Also, yeah, I can conceive

744
00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:03,680
Speaker 1: of them doing that because the only thing I've ever

745
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:06,880
Speaker 1: seen is James Bond. So I think a lot of people,

746
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,600
Speaker 1: in other words, are saying the media must be parroting this,

747
00:36:10,080 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: not because they believe it. Who the hell would believe that,

748
00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,879
Speaker 1: but because somebody told them or sold them to believe that.

749
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:20,520
Speaker 1: But the black Box piece. People like conspiracies, People like

750
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:24,080
Speaker 1: stories that are more interesting than real life. People like aliens.

751
00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,640
Speaker 1: You know, Area of fifty seven, fifty eight, fifty fifty one,

752
00:36:28,680 --> 00:36:30,719
Speaker 1: whatever it is. I've never been there. I'm sure there

753
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: are aliens there.

754
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: But for the people who believe this conspiracy, what do

755
00:36:35,200 --> 00:36:37,480
Speaker 2: you think they believe the CIA is agenda is why

756
00:36:37,560 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 2: CIA power.

757
00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: If you look at what motivates people, it's power, money,

758
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 1: and sex. I think anybody looking to c I would say,

759
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:48,080
Speaker 1: of course, they want to control Washington. So if you

760
00:36:48,080 --> 00:36:50,800
Speaker 1: want to control Washington, you have to control the media.

761
00:36:50,840 --> 00:36:55,560
Speaker 1: I think there's also a sense that the CIA tries

762
00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,399
Speaker 1: to control governments overseas. That's what they do. They try

763
00:36:59,400 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: to influence. Of course, they would try to influence events

764
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 1: in Washington, that's what they do overseas. I think the

765
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 1: fundamental piece of what I learned about the CIA is first,

766
00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:12,920
Speaker 1: their brand is great, like they don't need to improve.

767
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 1: You want to go recruit to college campus, say you're

768
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,560
Speaker 1: recruiting for CI, some people might protest. And I did

769
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,040
Speaker 1: a little recruiting there. There's a lot of twenty three

770
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,640
Speaker 1: year olds. You'll be like, that is too fricking cool.

771
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,320
Speaker 1: So if you think they want power to increase the brand,

772
00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: not so much. The other thing I'd say is when

773
00:37:29,600 --> 00:37:32,960
Speaker 1: I was there, we were driven by I want to

774
00:37:33,000 --> 00:37:34,880
Speaker 1: be the smartest guy in the room. You want to

775
00:37:34,920 --> 00:37:37,040
Speaker 1: know what's happening in Iran. You want to know what's

776
00:37:37,080 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 1: happening in Russia. You want to know what's happening in

777
00:37:39,520 --> 00:37:43,080
Speaker 1: North Korea. You talk to US. I once had I

778
00:37:43,120 --> 00:37:46,239
Speaker 1: won't drop a name, but the National Security Advisor of

779
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: the United States look at me and say, why do

780
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 1: you work there? You guys do information, you don't do decisions.

781
00:37:54,440 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: And I realized I like to know how stuff works,

782
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:01,320
Speaker 1: and I like to I was actually I was raised

783
00:38:01,320 --> 00:38:03,920
Speaker 1: by my mother as a writer. I like to write,

784
00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:06,680
Speaker 1: and I later learned I like to speak, which I

785
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,320
Speaker 1: did on CNN. But the CIA is actually interested in

786
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:12,560
Speaker 1: and explained to people how the world works. And that's

787
00:38:13,000 --> 00:38:16,640
Speaker 1: that was really motivating. Really like it's interesting to go

788
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: into the White House and say this is what's going

789
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,400
Speaker 1: on with al Qaieda. I did that with President Bush

790
00:38:21,440 --> 00:38:24,320
Speaker 1: and he asked me once whether or not to cancel.

791
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: I've never said this. July fourth celebrations me in Washington.

792
00:38:28,680 --> 00:38:32,799
Speaker 3: Really interesting up until you let did it matter to

793
00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 3: you at all? Whether you served a Republican or a

794
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 3: Democratic administration?

795
00:38:37,360 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: It mattered about the people because some of them were

796
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:43,520
Speaker 1: tremendous pain in the ass. Bill Clinton had some people

797
00:38:43,560 --> 00:38:45,680
Speaker 1: on the National Streety staff who asked a billion. They

798
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:48,040
Speaker 1: were a pain in the ass. I'd go back to

799
00:38:48,239 --> 00:38:52,480
Speaker 1: President Bush, Don Rumsfeld's staff, Doug Fight's pain in the ass.

800
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,680
Speaker 1: So it wasn't really political. It was like it was

801
00:38:55,760 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 1: harder with the Bush people on a rock because they

802
00:38:58,880 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 1: really wanted a story, and they if you gave them

803
00:39:01,239 --> 00:39:03,040
Speaker 1: an answer they didn't like, they'd ask the question a

804
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,439
Speaker 1: different way, then a different way, than a different way,

805
00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: and so we were believe it or not. Eventually told

806
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: when you're getting a similar question, you are not allowed

807
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,920
Speaker 1: to recraft the answer because if you use the wrong words,

808
00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:16,280
Speaker 1: they'll twist the words and say, why did you change

809
00:39:16,280 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: that word? It was ridiculous and that was some of

810
00:39:19,239 --> 00:39:21,360
Speaker 1: the Clinton staff and some of the Bush staff, and

811
00:39:21,440 --> 00:39:25,080
Speaker 1: my recollection. It was people who were just trying to

812
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:26,799
Speaker 1: take our information and abuse it.

813
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:31,280
Speaker 2: So, Phil, I do you mentioned that you resigned instead

814
00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 2: of retiring, And it's a big deal in government. If

815
00:39:34,200 --> 00:39:38,120
Speaker 2: you spend twenty years in or whatever it is, you

816
00:39:38,160 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 2: can retire with some version of a pension or so

817
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:42,879
Speaker 2: why did you leave when you did?

818
00:39:43,160 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: Let me be clear about how significant this was for me.

819
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:47,440
Speaker 1: I was forty eight years old when I made the decision.

820
00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 1: You can retire in my world at fifty five, so

821
00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:52,919
Speaker 1: that's seven years out. If you quit at forty eight,

822
00:39:52,960 --> 00:39:55,440
Speaker 1: you take a seven year penalty. So that means, and

823
00:39:55,480 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: I just turned sixty two this year, that means you

824
00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:01,480
Speaker 1: take you go from fifty f five to sixty two,

825
00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:03,799
Speaker 1: you don't get any money till you're sixty two. So

826
00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:06,160
Speaker 1: when I'm forty eight, I'm saying, if I leave, I

827
00:40:06,160 --> 00:40:08,919
Speaker 1: don't see a dime for fourteen years, and I don't

828
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,000
Speaker 1: know how to make a living. So that's a different story.

829
00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 1: Ani made a living, But I was nominated by President

830
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,440
Speaker 1: Obama to be the head of intelligence at Homeland Security

831
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 1: and as when you enter as a GS nine twenty

832
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:23,160
Speaker 1: two thousand dollars a year analyst, to be nominated for

833
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,080
Speaker 1: a Senate confirmed position by the president is big fucking deal.

834
00:40:27,280 --> 00:40:29,359
Speaker 1: I didn't know President Obama. I think I knew who

835
00:40:29,400 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 1: teed me up, but that requires Senate confirmation, which is

836
00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:36,560
Speaker 1: an open hearing. At that point, going into the hearing process,

837
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:39,640
Speaker 1: I was the only CIA official who was going to

838
00:40:39,680 --> 00:40:42,520
Speaker 1: go into an open hearing for a job. The Democrat said,

839
00:40:43,040 --> 00:40:45,919
Speaker 1: we're going to crush him for torture. The Republican said,

840
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: we're going to have him explain why the CIA was

841
00:40:48,719 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 1: great in terms of dealing with al Qaeda in black sites.

842
00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 1: We're going to use this as a It had nothing

843
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:55,680
Speaker 1: to do with the job I was assigned to. That

844
00:40:55,840 --> 00:40:57,960
Speaker 1: was fine. I'm perfectly happy as you guys known to

845
00:40:57,960 --> 00:40:59,960
Speaker 1: take on a fight. You want to brawl, I will brawl.

846
00:41:00,680 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 1: Two other things happened. Members of the committee I think

847
00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:05,840
Speaker 1: I know who they are, started calling media saying you

848
00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:07,520
Speaker 1: should show up to this because it's going to be

849
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,200
Speaker 1: a blood bath. And then the worst part is when

850
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 1: the White House was doing nose counting for the confirmation,

851
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:18,240
Speaker 1: that sense was Democrats might not support denomination, which unless

852
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 1: you don't pay your maid because she's Guatemala, and that

853
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 1: doesn't happen, you do not get turned down by the

854
00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:27,440
Speaker 1: So I realized that this was going to be a

855
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:29,600
Speaker 1: clown show and a clown. I was happy with the

856
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,479
Speaker 1: clown show, but that more than likely after the clown show,

857
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:34,759
Speaker 1: I would be turned down. And I knew I did

858
00:41:34,760 --> 00:41:36,520
Speaker 1: not have a future at the age of forty eight.

859
00:41:37,040 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: The CIA thought you'd been gone for four and a

860
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:40,960
Speaker 1: half years of the FBI. We don't give a shit.

861
00:41:41,680 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: I didn't have a future at the FBI. So I

862
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: remember literally looking in the mirror one day, saying if

863
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:54,279
Speaker 1: you had any courage, you'd leave. And I remember realizing,

864
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:57,719
Speaker 1: if you do that, you can't pay the mortgage. And

865
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:00,200
Speaker 1: so I chose not paying the mortgage over being told

866
00:42:00,200 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: by the Senate that you're a fool.

867
00:42:02,360 --> 00:42:03,960
Speaker 2: You could have I would have taken you could have

868
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:06,080
Speaker 2: hidden an overseas station for a couple of years.

869
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:12,160
Speaker 5: Today you got to Paris. I said, I said you

870
00:42:12,200 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 5: to lose Soka.

871
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 1: Man, yeah, no, So I it worked out fine. I

872
00:42:17,640 --> 00:42:21,200
Speaker 1: thank god. I was really scared because I was having

873
00:42:21,280 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 1: a trouble at that point literally paying my mortgage. I

874
00:42:24,880 --> 00:42:28,680
Speaker 1: was behind a few times with the bank, and man

875
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:29,560
Speaker 1: was I scared.

876
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 5: But so much for power, sex and money.

877
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 1: A little bit of California cabernet that'll get you through it?

878
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:37,560
Speaker 5: Is that what you're drinking?

879
00:42:37,560 --> 00:42:37,719
Speaker 1: Now?

880
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:38,600
Speaker 5: What are you drinking now?

881
00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 1: One of the local Virginia grapes is Petit Verdau in

882
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:45,520
Speaker 1: the local vineyard Starn Valley does a terrific petite for dough.

883
00:42:45,760 --> 00:42:49,200
Speaker 1: It's a velvety, smooth. The owners are friends of mine,

884
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:52,320
Speaker 1: so I tried to patronize Virginia wines and this is

885
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 1: a really good star in the valley. Petit for dou

886
00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:55,479
Speaker 1: really good.

887
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 5: Well, come to Hawaii and I'll make you my tie.

888
00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:58,320
Speaker 5: How's that?

889
00:42:58,640 --> 00:43:00,279
Speaker 1: It's good to see you, guys. I don't do this

890
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,399
Speaker 1: much anymore. I just grow tomatoes and play with the dog.

891
00:43:04,640 --> 00:43:07,120
Speaker 2: Well, thank you for bearing with us. We'll be back

892
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,960
Speaker 2: again next week with another episode of Mission Implausible.

893
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 6: Mission Implausible is produced by Adam Davidson, Jerry O'shay, John Seipher,

894
00:43:20,239 --> 00:43:21,600
Speaker 6: and Jonathan Sterner.

895
00:43:21,680 --> 00:43:24,040
Speaker 5: The associate producer is Rachel Harner.

896
00:43:24,280 --> 00:43:28,080
Speaker 6: Mission Implausible is a production of honorable mention and abominable

897
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 6: pictures for iHeart Podcasts.