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Speaker 1: M hm. Hitler is a guy we're gonna be talking

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Speaker 1: about a lot today because we're talking about The Dullest

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Speaker 1: Brothers Part two, and we'll be covering their time in

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Speaker 1: the war, which involves a lot of Nazis. I'm Robert Evans.

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Speaker 1: This is you know, Behind the Bastards. You should know

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Speaker 1: that this is the second episode we're doing on this series.

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Speaker 1: And my guest is again Jason Targeant. Jason, how are

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Speaker 1: you doing? Do some people start with part two of

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Speaker 1: a series like this? Do we have to catch them?

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Speaker 1: Catch them up with if they are Jason, their maniacs,

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Speaker 1: and I feel no need to pay ander to them.

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Speaker 1: There's a question I did want to ask though, because

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Speaker 1: when you left off the two Dullest Brothers, and again

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Speaker 1: just because it's been a week or whatever, You've got

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Speaker 1: the elder brother, Foster Dulles, who is not yet going

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Speaker 1: he's going to be Secretary of State later. You've got

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Speaker 1: the younger alan Um who was later going to take

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Speaker 1: over the CIA. Right now, they're not doing that. Right now,

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Speaker 1: they are helping to basically negotiate the post war post

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Speaker 1: World War one piece with Germany correct and the terms

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Speaker 1: of that that will wind up the terms of the

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Speaker 1: piece of World War One set the stage for everything

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Speaker 1: that comes after, right up until today. Yes, So how

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Speaker 1: old are these brothers when that is occurring, Because they're

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Speaker 1: not They're not very old. No, I mean like twenty,

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Speaker 1: like like Allen. Well, yeah, in there, in there there.

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Speaker 1: So Foster is older. Foster starts um college. Well, no,

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Speaker 1: he starts high school in nineteen o four, so he's

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Speaker 1: graduated by nineteen o eight. World War One starts when

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Speaker 1: he's in his early twenties. He's in his late twenties,

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Speaker 1: and Alan is in his early twenties. I think. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so when you think about your early twenties, would you

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Speaker 1: have felt confident in your ability to redraw the map

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Speaker 1: of post war Europe? Done a pretty good job? I

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Speaker 1: think I could have, you know, because the the only

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Speaker 1: people who have their ship together, uh, in all of

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Speaker 1: Europe um in my opinion, my opinion Jason um is

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Speaker 1: probably gonna be I don't know, uh, fucking Bosnia and

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Speaker 1: I thing's ever gotten wrong there. Let's give it all

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Speaker 1: to Bosnia. Let them figure it out. I think that's

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Speaker 1: how I do it. You've got Greater Bosnia and then

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Speaker 1: you got Russia. There could be an entire There have

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Speaker 1: been entire, unsure, horrifying books written about the way that

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Speaker 1: the map when after the breakup of the Ottoman Empire

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Speaker 1: and everything else, like everything that's happening all the way

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Speaker 1: through al Qaeda and ISIS, and everything comes down to

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Speaker 1: in many ways, how those borders were drawn by people

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Speaker 1: who in many cases had never even visited the places

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Speaker 1: they were. And one of the most telling things in

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Speaker 1: the world if you want to know understand a lot

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Speaker 1: of why people in a lot of parts of the

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Speaker 1: Middle East field the way they do and why things

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Speaker 1: have gone the way they do, is the vast majority

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Speaker 1: of people in the United States and England and France

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Speaker 1: have never heard of the Psykes Pico Treaty. Every fucking

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Speaker 1: kid in Iraq, in Syria knows what Psykes Pico was. Um,

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Speaker 1: because it created their fucking world. Um, And it was

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Speaker 1: a treaty that you know, Sykes and Picco. I think

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Speaker 1: we're British and French guys, but um, it's um yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is this is the period that period. Well that's happening.

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Speaker 1: And I will say, you know, in fairness, redrawing the

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Speaker 1: boundaries of Europe as a result of this conflict. What

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Speaker 1: they're doing is not the same as what's being done

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Speaker 1: to the Ottoman Empire, because that's much more violent and horrible.

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Speaker 1: What like they had, they understand Europe a lot better. Um,

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Speaker 1: they're often negotiating with the people who are running these

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Speaker 1: countries because like they you know, they for one thing,

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Speaker 1: think that Europeans get to have more input into what

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Speaker 1: happens with their nations than than the people of the

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Speaker 1: Ottoman former Ottoman territories. Yeah, it's just it's a very

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Speaker 1: consequential period of world history. The same after World War One,

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Speaker 1: the whole world order kind of gets reshuffled, and I

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Speaker 1: think one of which of the Dullest brothers was dealing

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Speaker 1: with Germany's repayment of their foster foster. Like how that

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Speaker 1: comes down, that's gonna sow the seeds of everything, everything

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Speaker 1: that happens up until today. Like it's it's hard to

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Speaker 1: overstate how the mistakes are made at the time, and

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Speaker 1: maybe things couldn't have been anticipated. I don't know, that's

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Speaker 1: a whole separate deal. It's hard to overstate how important

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Speaker 1: what their work was here up through until the time.

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Speaker 1: Both of these men die. Because it is a personal

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Speaker 1: beef of mind that when we talk about politics in

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Speaker 1: America today, when we look for a historical example, we

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Speaker 1: have like two, everyone is either Hitler or uh now,

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Speaker 1: I don't know if it's everything is either four or Hitler,

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Speaker 1: it's yeah. And I wish I wish you could insult

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Speaker 1: the president by saying he's like Woodrow Wilson. And I

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Speaker 1: wish you could insult an administration's foreign policy by saying

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Speaker 1: it's like it's like the Dulles are in charge. To

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Speaker 1: the average person today, like arguing on the internet those names,

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Speaker 1: I guarantee you don't mean anything. They don't. And it's

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Speaker 1: one of the things that's fascinating about this that you're

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Speaker 1: kind of touching on is that when the most consequenceial

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Speaker 1: decisions in modern history are being made, a number of

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Speaker 1: people at the table are just some dudes, grandkids, you know,

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Speaker 1: like the dullest brothers are not the only people who

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Speaker 1: get in this position, including like the crowned heads of Europe.

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Speaker 1: You could argue, but like, how much a factor this

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Speaker 1: is that the people making these calls are all buddies

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Speaker 1: and relatives of each other in a lot of ways.

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Speaker 1: It's different because in America we're not supposed to have

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Speaker 1: royalty and and so. But when you but when you

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Speaker 1: look and he said, well, gosh, how are these two

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Speaker 1: guys fresh out of college or fresh out of the

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Speaker 1: first jobs? Like sitting at the table help redraw what

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Speaker 1: the future looks like. And it's like, oh, well, they

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Speaker 1: were having dinner with foreign leaders when they were in kindergarten. Uh.

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Speaker 1: It's there are classes of people who when you're growing up,

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Speaker 1: you have the option of saying, well, do you want

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Speaker 1: to go into your father's business to be a minister?

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Speaker 1: Do you want to be secretaries? Stay like your grandfather,

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Speaker 1: And that's one of the options. Uh. And you're just

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Speaker 1: traveling in a circle of people and you have as

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Speaker 1: you mentioned the previous episode, like their jobs they were

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Speaker 1: getting at the time didn't pay much at all, totally

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Speaker 1: irrelevant to this class of people. That's not what it's about.

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Speaker 1: Like they are destined to be names and history books

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Speaker 1: and so they have the money if they want to

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Speaker 1: spend a year in India or do whatever they did

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Speaker 1: to see these parts of the world and all these

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Speaker 1: things would influence how they see the world. They have

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Speaker 1: the ability to do that. You you didn't, you could

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Speaker 1: not have have taken off and just you know, traveled

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Speaker 1: around and all of this and failed your way upward

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Speaker 1: the way Allen did. Yeah. Um, Now, Jason, as we

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Speaker 1: get into this because we into the last episode, noting

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Speaker 1: that this is the period the world, the end of

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Speaker 1: World War One in which communism really gets fixed on

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Speaker 1: the dullest boys radar right. And of course it would

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Speaker 1: like it wasn't really a massive topic of discussion until

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Speaker 1: the Russian Revolution that really made it something that a

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Speaker 1: lot of American conservatives were obsessed about. Um because they see,

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Speaker 1: you know, you see, like the business leaders in the

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Speaker 1: crowned heads of of Russia get murdered and have their

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Speaker 1: stuff taken, and it it scares a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: But it is worth noting as we start this episode

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Speaker 1: that the hardline anti communist attitudes that were adopted by

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Speaker 1: Foster and alan a List immediately after the Russian Revolution

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Speaker 1: were not necessarily the default even among conservatives. Herbert Fucking

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Speaker 1: Hoover is one of the most conservative presidents in US history,

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Speaker 1: and during this period of time he urged Woodrow Wilson

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Speaker 1: to reevaluate the Bolshevik movement and acknowledge that it had

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Speaker 1: quote true social ends and roots in quote grievous injustices

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Speaker 1: to the lowest classes in all the countries that have

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Speaker 1: been affected. Hoover warned that in the United States, the

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Speaker 1: advancement of communist causes was directly the fault of American reactionaries,

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Speaker 1: who had stimulated Bolshevism by viciously attacking social welfare programs. Now,

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Speaker 1: if you know what anythan about Hoover, it's wild that

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Speaker 1: he's the one saying this, but he is. History has

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Speaker 1: gotten rewritten. Yeah, in terms of looking backward about and

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Speaker 1: and and then in the same way where it's like, well,

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Speaker 1: we always hated the Nazis, so like, well, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we're about to talk about that a lot, Jason, No,

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Speaker 1: uh yeah. So the idea that the communism is like

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Speaker 1: always antithnical to everything America. It's godless and it's there's

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Speaker 1: no freedom, and it's like, well, like Herbert Hoover was saying,

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Speaker 1: these guys have a point because what it replaced was

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Speaker 1: not American style. We have this thing where it's like

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Speaker 1: the whole world is either America or it's communist. It's like,

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Speaker 1: but I mean, to his credit, he is very astute.

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Speaker 1: Lee noting that one of the thing reasons these causes

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Speaker 1: are being advanced in the United States is because reactionaries

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Speaker 1: are refusing any kind of meaningful social welfare. Um, so

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Speaker 1: he's not entirely like that is a That is a

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Speaker 1: pretty astute observation. I would say it is a level

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Speaker 1: of nuance on the subject that America would have would

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Speaker 1: be in no mood for a few decades later. And

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Speaker 1: again from one of one of the worst presidents in

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Speaker 1: American history. The guy who who just kind of steers

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Speaker 1: us right into the Great Depression is staying this amazing.

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Speaker 1: Herbert so Woodrow Wilson and the Dullest Brothers did not

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Speaker 1: listen to Herbert Hoover. Between nineteen nineteen and nineteen twenty,

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Speaker 1: President Wilson deployed the U. S. Army to suppress labor

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Speaker 1: or racial unrest twenty five times. That's the Army, not

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Speaker 1: the National Guard. We don't talk about that a lot either.

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Speaker 1: The Dullest Brothers enthusiastically supported this. After the war, Allen

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Speaker 1: continued his diplomatic career for a while, but eventually left

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Speaker 1: to join his brother at Sullivan and Cromwell. Now by

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Speaker 1: that point, Foster Dullas had been made a full partner

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Speaker 1: in the firm, which was more powerful than ever. As

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Speaker 1: the United States grew through the nineteen twenties to become

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Speaker 1: the West's pre minute power, Sullivan and Cromwell continued to

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Speaker 1: do the work of weaving their corporate clients into the

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Speaker 1: very fabric of American governance. In the US, Foster Dullas

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Speaker 1: presided over the merger of a group of oil drillers

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Speaker 1: and refiners into a Moco. He worked with mining corporations

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Speaker 1: in Chile and Peru, sugar plantations in Cuba, banks in France.

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Speaker 1: He specialized in helping US utility companies take control of

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Speaker 1: utilities and foreign nations, generally by bribing their governments. Alan's

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Speaker 1: first post World War One posting was to the U.

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Speaker 1: S Embassy in Turkey. Now again, he is technically a

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Speaker 1: diplomat at this point, but his real job in all

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Speaker 1: these postings is to gather intelligence. He's a spy, but

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Speaker 1: at this point, again not a very good one, because

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Speaker 1: as soon as Alan sets up shop in Turkey, he

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Speaker 1: falls for the most obvious forgery of all time, the

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Speaker 1: Protocols of the Elders. Yes, grats that one off your

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Speaker 1: Bengo card, and then really evaluate reevaluate your life. If

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Speaker 1: you have a bingo card with the Protocols of the

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Speaker 1: Elders of Zion on it, that's maybe think about. If

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Speaker 1: you're a podcast listener, I'm sorry, you can't go very

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Speaker 1: many podcast episodes without running into it, either in a

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Speaker 1: good way or a very bad way. So I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: quote from The Devil's Chessboard by David Talbot here. One day,

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Speaker 1: the young American diplomat was given a copy of the

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Speaker 1: Protocols of the Elders of Zion by a British reporter

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Speaker 1: who had fished the scillious document out of a second

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Speaker 1: hand bookstore in Istanbul's Old European Quarter. The Protocols purported

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Speaker 1: to offer a secret plan for Jewish world domination and

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Speaker 1: included tales about Christian children being sacrificed for Passover feast

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Speaker 1: rituals and other lurid fantasies. By the time Dullus got

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Speaker 1: his hands on the book, which was the creation of

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Speaker 1: the Russian Czars anti Semitic secret police, the document had

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Speaker 1: been widely denounced and discredited, but Dullus took it seriously

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Speaker 1: enough to send a coded report about the secret Jewish

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Speaker 1: plot back to his superiors in Washington, so he he

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Speaker 1: sends this back to the State Department, like you guys

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Speaker 1: got to hear about this? Uh incredible spy. The authors

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Speaker 1: of who named that? How upset were they when they

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Speaker 1: later heard the much more badass title The Devil's Chessboard,

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Speaker 1: So much better of a should have called our thing

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Speaker 1: the Devil's Chessboard the Devil's Chessboard. It is a pretty

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Speaker 1: good book. It's actually the guy who founded Salon, which

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Speaker 1: is not a website. I like a lot, But Alan

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Speaker 1: Dullas got married in nineteen twenty to a woman named Clover,

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Speaker 1: who he almost immediately cheated on. It was a miserable relationship,

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Speaker 1: but they would stay together the rest of their lives.

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Speaker 1: Clover was prone to depression, while Alan barely paid attention

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Speaker 1: to her and slept around constantly. His sister Eleanor estimated

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Speaker 1: that he had more than a hundred mistresses, to the

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Speaker 1: extent that Ellen Dulas was capable of feeling bad about anything.

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Speaker 1: He seems to have felt kind of bad about this.

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Speaker 1: At one point he wrote to his wife and advised

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Speaker 1: her to ask her friends for advice on how to

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Speaker 1: quote live with a queer duck like me. He later

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Speaker 1: confessed in a letter, I don't feel I deserve as

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Speaker 1: good a wife as I have, as I am rather

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Speaker 1: too fond of the company of other ladies. So there's

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Speaker 1: a there's a degree of self awareness that he has

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Speaker 1: because he's he's she is miserable, like on the verge

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Speaker 1: sometimes of suicide, because he's he's just constantly sleeping with her,

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Speaker 1: and like he'll tell her about it, like he's not

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Speaker 1: even trying to hide it. Like he'll like brag about

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Speaker 1: his new mistresses to like their kids. Like it's he's

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Speaker 1: a weird dude, A weird dude who, like most narcissists,

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Speaker 1: I assume, could turn on the charm when he wanted

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Speaker 1: to and probably worked like a magic spell. Like that

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Speaker 1: is the worst type of person to be in a

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Speaker 1: relationship with when they can turn that on and then

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Speaker 1: just turn it off instantly. Now, one of the chief

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Speaker 1: problems in their union, as you were kind of getting

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Speaker 1: at Jason, was Alan's temper. He was prone to angry

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Speaker 1: rants that would provoke his wife to curl up into

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Speaker 1: a fetal position. When he finally stopped, she'd leave the

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Speaker 1: house and wander for hours. They were miserable together, so

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Speaker 1: perhaps it's for the best that Alan spent most of

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Speaker 1: his time traveling around the world ignoring her. Clover tried

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Speaker 1: to make the best of a bad situation by focusing

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Speaker 1: on her son and two daughters. While her husband was

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Speaker 1: an arch conservative, she became obsessed with penal reform and

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Speaker 1: spent a great deal of time visiting prisoners. She was

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Speaker 1: known to regularly stop for long conversations with homeless people

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Speaker 1: and impoverished men and women. In breadlines and letters to

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Speaker 1: her family, she wrote that she felt guilty for her wealth.

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Speaker 1: Alan felt no such guilt. He was known to not

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Speaker 1: even pick up napkins he dropped at dinner, leaving that

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Speaker 1: for his servants. So they're very different people. In nineteen

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Speaker 1: thirty one, Alan started an affair with a blonde Russian

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Speaker 1: immigrant whose husband was chronically ill. He did not try

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Speaker 1: to hide his relationship from his wife, and in fact

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Speaker 1: bragged to her and to his children about the relationship.

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Speaker 1: One of his biographers later wrote, sex, it appears was

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Speaker 1: to Alan dillis a form of physical therapy, something one

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Speaker 1: did to keep himself fit for more important things. Clover's

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Speaker 1: insistence on staying home with the children and her increasing

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Speaker 1: preoccupation with prisoners rights were treated by him as a

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Speaker 1: betrayal of her obligation to be his good and faithful companion.

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Speaker 1: If Clover would not travel when Alan asked, then he

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Speaker 1: could not really be blamed if he diverted himself with

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Speaker 1: other women, always of his own class and station. So

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Speaker 1: pretty cool, dude, I guess that's what I'm getting at, Jason. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And if he was a narcissist, as I throughout a

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Speaker 1: wild guest in the previous episode, if you disagree, that

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Speaker 1: is fine. If he was literally everything that happens here

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Speaker 1: is totally unsurprising to you. Right. He does not conceive

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Speaker 1: of anyone else. He is the main character in the

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Speaker 1: story that is his life. Everyone else or extras and

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Speaker 1: he it's not that he can't have feelings or emotions,

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Speaker 1: but the fits of rage, the fact that when you

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Speaker 1: make a narcissist angry, your humanity disappears. You are just

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Speaker 1: an object. You're a receptacle for their rage. And so

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Speaker 1: whatever love he felt for someone like that, it is

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Speaker 1: different because he said, like, you know, I don't you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't deserve a wife is as good as her

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Speaker 1: or whatever. Again, he's still not thinking of her as

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Speaker 1: an in you know, like a separate person with agency

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Speaker 1: and the same thing with the servants and everyone else.

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Speaker 1: I personally believe this is just my opinion that his

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Speaker 1: whole worldview was kind of shaped by that. And the

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Speaker 1: fact that we have a system where narcissists consistently bubbled

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Speaker 1: to the top explains a lot about the way name

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Speaker 1: name a popular figure. I'm not saying that Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: was a narcissist. I again, I've not spoke to the man.

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Speaker 1: I I certainly couldnt make that determination. He kind of

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Speaker 1: has some uh elements of one in my opinion. Again,

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Speaker 1: if you disagree, those of you who know it all

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Speaker 1: Trump personally, I know some of your friends, you know

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Speaker 1: this has a this our our number one hot spot

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Speaker 1: for listeners is Mara Lada action. Um so. But I

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Speaker 1: think guys like this they can't fully conceive of consequences

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Speaker 1: to themselves or to other people, like they just everything

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Speaker 1: about the way and like the idea that the citizens

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Speaker 1: of these other countries where they're going to do the

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Speaker 1: things spoiler alert that they're going to be doing over

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Speaker 1: the next few decades, the idea that the people suffering

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Speaker 1: because of that, that those are actual human beings. I

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Speaker 1: don't think would enter the mind of someone like al adult.

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Speaker 1: I don't think he can really conceptualize that. No, I don't,

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Speaker 1: And that's what I was saying earlier. I think makes

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Speaker 1: him different from his brother because Foster is not the

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Speaker 1: same um I think Foster has and it evolves through

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Speaker 1: time an ideology. Well, actually he goes through a couple

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Speaker 1: of different ones. But he he acts based on things

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Speaker 1: that he believes about the world, and I think with

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Speaker 1: Alan it's more he acts based on things he believes

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Speaker 1: about himself or wants to have for himself. It's almost

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Speaker 1: like you have the representation of what we now think

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Speaker 1: of as like the modern conservative movement, where you have

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Speaker 1: the Bible true believers, and then like the Donald Trump

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Speaker 1: wing who's just in it for a really interesting way

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Speaker 1: to look at this. And so that's how you can

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Speaker 1: wind up with like a womanizer, a crazy party boy

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Speaker 1: who has the loyal devotion of the studious Bible thumpers

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Speaker 1: in the South. It's like, how do they have anything

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Speaker 1: in common? Well, look at the dullest brothers raised by

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Speaker 1: the same family at the same time in the same era,

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Speaker 1: two very different people that would wind up on the

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Speaker 1: same mission for in my view, totally different reasons. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think I think you're right on the money with that.

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Speaker 1: That is not I think a way I would have

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Speaker 1: thought to bring it up. But let's get moving. Um okay.

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Speaker 1: So Foster, by comparison to his brother, was utterly devoted

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Speaker 1: and as far as we know, loyal to his wife Janet.

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Speaker 1: But the brothers were similar in the fact that neither

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Speaker 1: of them did seem to give a good goddamn about

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Speaker 1: their children. David Talbot writes that Alan treated his kids

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Speaker 1: as if they were quote visitors in his house, and

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Speaker 1: they were both just they were both like complete workaholics.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think with Alan it more he really

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Speaker 1: didn't care all that much. Foster is just working all

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Speaker 1: the time. They're both people who their children are number one.

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Speaker 1: Then this is them being a product of their time. Right,

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Speaker 1: that's the wife's job, right. Um, you know, when they're older,

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Speaker 1: all helped them start their careers off and stuff, and

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Speaker 1: like they'll but like it's it's her job to raise them.

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Speaker 1: I have to go change the world. But neither of

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Speaker 1: them are very warm fathers, you would say. Um, Now,

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Speaker 1: as the Roaring twenties gave way to the Great Depression

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Speaker 1: of the early nineteen thirties. The Dullest brothers grew increasingly

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Speaker 1: concerned about the spread of Communist sympathy at home and abroad,

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Speaker 1: and Foster this ignited a deep and enthusiastic sympathy for

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Speaker 1: the Nazis, who he regarded as the best bet for

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Speaker 1: stopping communisms westward advance in Europe. While he does not

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Speaker 1: seem to have fallen for the protocols of the Elders

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Speaker 1: of Zion like his younger brother, Foster's Nazi sympathies led

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Speaker 1: him to some pretty vile behavior from the Devil's Chessboard quote.

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Speaker 1: In ninety two, is Hitler began his takeover of the

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Speaker 1: German government, Foster visited three Jewish friends, all prominent bankers,

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Speaker 1: in their Berlin office. The men were in a state

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Speaker 1: of extreme anxiety during the meeting. At one point, the bankers,

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Speaker 1: too afraid to speak, made motions to indicate a truck

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Speaker 1: parked outside and suggested that it was monitoring their conversation.

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Speaker 1: They indicated to him that they felt absolutely no freedom.

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Speaker 1: Eleanor recalled Foster's reaction to his friends terrible dilemma. Unnerved

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Speaker 1: his sister There's nothing that a person like me can

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Speaker 1: do in dealing with these men except to probably keep

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Speaker 1: away from them, he later told Eleanor They're safer if

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Speaker 1: I keep away from them. Actually, there was much that

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Speaker 1: a Wall Street powerbroker like John Foster Dolas could have

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Speaker 1: done for his endangered friends, starting with pulleage, pulling strings

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Speaker 1: to get their families and at least some of their

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Speaker 1: assets out of Germany before it was too late. And

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Speaker 1: I think David Talbot is right on the money here.

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Speaker 1: This is not a situation where he could have done nothing.

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Speaker 1: The Nazis were extremely happy to let very wealthy Jewish

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Speaker 1: people leave Europe, often with some of their assets, in

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Speaker 1: order to please For indignitary stuff like that happened. A

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Speaker 1: man with Foster's poll would have had no trouble getting

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Speaker 1: his friends out of Nazi Germany. Many other influential foreigners

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Speaker 1: did the same, and in fact Hitler himself intervened to

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Speaker 1: allow a Jewish doctor who had treated his mother's cancer

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Speaker 1: to immigrate from Germany with his assets. This was not

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Speaker 1: an impossible thing. Um he just didn't do it. Uh

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Speaker 1: it was I think he just got spooked. Um Or

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Speaker 1: he didn't really care all that much, one way or

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Speaker 1: the other. Now, the fact that Foster Dulas absolutely could

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Speaker 1: have saved his friends is underscored by the fact that

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Speaker 1: he was seen by the Nazis as one of their

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Speaker 1: most valuable American friends. In fact, without Foster Dullus, it

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Speaker 1: is possible that the Nazi military build up and the

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Speaker 1: Blitzgraig would not have happened, or certainly wouldn't have happened

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Speaker 1: in the form that it did. See and this is interesting.

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00:22:48,080 --> 00:22:52,119
Speaker 1: Foster Dulas made his fortune building and advising cartel's. This

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Speaker 1: is what he specialized in for that big law firm.

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Speaker 1: Cartels are groups of competing businesses who agreed to fix

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Speaker 1: prices and closed their supply and distribution networks to outsiders

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00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:06,040
Speaker 1: in order to maximize profits. Now, this was not then

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00:23:06,119 --> 00:23:09,120
Speaker 1: or now a popular idea to anyone but people who

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00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:12,320
Speaker 1: invest in cartels because it increases prices and generally reduces

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00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 1: the quality of products for everybody else. Foster defended cartels

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Speaker 1: as forces for stability, and he made it like his

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Speaker 1: argument that it's it protects economies from wild swings. Now,

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Speaker 1: one of Foster's big clients was the International Nickel Company,

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Speaker 1: which was based in the United States, Foster was both

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Speaker 1: their legal counsel and a director and member of the

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00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:37,920
Speaker 1: executive board. In the early nineteen thirties, as the Nazis

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Speaker 1: solidified their hold on power, Foster Doles helped merge the

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Speaker 1: International Nickel Company and a Canadian affiliate into a cartel

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Speaker 1: with France's two major nickel producers. In nineteen thirty four,

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Speaker 1: he brought a German company in I. G. Farban, the

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Speaker 1: largest German nickel producer, into the cartel. Stephen Kinzer writes

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Speaker 1: quote this gave Nazi Germany access to the cartel's resources.

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Speaker 1: Without Dullus, According to a study of Sullivan and Cromwell,

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Speaker 1: Germany would have lacked any negotiating strength with International Nickel,

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Speaker 1: which controlled the world supply of nickel, a crucial ingredient

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Speaker 1: in stainless steel and armor plate. So without this cartel

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Speaker 1: and without Foster's roll in it, it's possible the Nazis

428
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,080
Speaker 1: don't have access to the metal they need to make

429
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,320
Speaker 1: the armor for their tanks. Which is cool. And he

430
00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:34,879
Speaker 1: was not unique, No, no, no, in the American business world. Again,

431
00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:38,440
Speaker 1: it's it's hard to he's not unique at this stage.

432
00:24:38,600 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: Certainly in nineteen this is two thirty four is when

433
00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: he brings an Ig Farban and a lot of Americans

434
00:24:47,800 --> 00:24:50,520
Speaker 1: are working with the Nazis. Absolutely, Yeah, this is a

435
00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:55,160
Speaker 1: stage where in the American business, especially if you think

436
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: that you're picking between the Nazis and the Communists, there's

437
00:24:59,280 --> 00:25:01,520
Speaker 1: a lot that kind of came down on the side

438
00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:04,479
Speaker 1: of There's a lot to be discussed there about what

439
00:25:04,560 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 1: they knew or should have known at the time, because again,

440
00:25:08,040 --> 00:25:11,159
Speaker 1: the issues that the Jews were having in Germany, like

441
00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:12,919
Speaker 1: you talked to any of them, you could have found

442
00:25:12,920 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: out what was coming, and Foster had you know, and

443
00:25:15,640 --> 00:25:19,959
Speaker 1: Foster had and so the argument that they should have known, like,

444
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:23,200
Speaker 1: I get that we're looking back at this knowing how

445
00:25:23,240 --> 00:25:27,200
Speaker 1: things turned out, and that that is not completely fair.

446
00:25:27,359 --> 00:25:29,439
Speaker 1: Like there, maybe we may be getting judged just as

447
00:25:29,480 --> 00:25:31,479
Speaker 1: harshly Hun did years from now from things that we

448
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,439
Speaker 1: expressed support for or whatever, but for Will Wheaton mainly,

449
00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:38,760
Speaker 1: But of all the people on earth who probably could

450
00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: have should have known better, I I think it's fair

451
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 1: to say that Foster Dellis was was one of those. Yeah,

452
00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:51,919
Speaker 1: and his his complicity will get deeper um at this

453
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 1: stage thirty four. I mean, he didn't necessarily know the Germans.

454
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:56,879
Speaker 1: He couldn't have known they're going to use all of

455
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 1: this nickel to make tanks and take over a large

456
00:25:59,720 --> 00:26:02,840
Speaker 1: jump of the planet. Um, although I guess you could,

457
00:26:03,040 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: you could safely argue wasn't a huge guess if you

458
00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 1: were reading the things that Hitler was putting out right,

459
00:26:09,920 --> 00:26:13,760
Speaker 1: because like, it's what year didn't mind come come out? Geez,

460
00:26:13,800 --> 00:26:16,400
Speaker 1: twenty four I think is when it was written at least, Yeah,

461
00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 1: this is complicated territory that the exact year you're talking

462
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,480
Speaker 1: about matters a lot, because a lot of people don't

463
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:25,160
Speaker 1: immediately know, like well, Win was Poland invaded? Or when

464
00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 1: did it? When did they find out about the Holocaust?

465
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 1: There is plenty of support in the thirties for Hitler

466
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:35,720
Speaker 1: in the United States at the stage we're talking about.

467
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:40,280
Speaker 1: But again, it mind comp was not dug up and

468
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 1: discovered later. Hitler's feelings about the Jews was not something

469
00:26:43,640 --> 00:26:46,200
Speaker 1: that came out later and and where he had to

470
00:26:46,240 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: be canceled later on it was known. Uh, it was

471
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,520
Speaker 1: never okay, It's just you have to orient yourself in

472
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:57,639
Speaker 1: time to understand what's like, how he could be so

473
00:26:57,760 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: callous or how he could you know, like leave those

474
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,840
Speaker 1: friends behind because did he know the degree of danger

475
00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 1: that those friends were in. Probably not, but uh I

476
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 1: don't know, yep, yep, yeah, and well yeah, I'm going

477
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,760
Speaker 1: to continue actually with a quote from the Brothers um

478
00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:19,560
Speaker 1: that talks about so he one of the guys he

479
00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,199
Speaker 1: works with is this this guy Shocked, who is like

480
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,119
Speaker 1: kind of running the economy for the Nazis in this

481
00:27:25,240 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: period quote. Working with Shocked Foster helped the not national

482
00:27:29,040 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 1: socialist state find rich sources of financing in the United

483
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: States for its public agencies, banks and industries. The two

484
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 1: men shaped complex restructuring of German loan obligations at several

485
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:42,600
Speaker 1: debt conferences in Berlin, conferences that were officially among bankers

486
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,199
Speaker 1: but were in fact closely guided by the American and

487
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:48,120
Speaker 1: German governments, and came up with new formulas that made

488
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,879
Speaker 1: it easier for the Germans to borrow money from American banks.

489
00:27:51,320 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 1: Sullivan and Cromwell floated the first American bonds issued by

490
00:27:54,600 --> 00:27:58,159
Speaker 1: the giant German steelmaker and arms manufacturer Krupp. A G

491
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 1: extended i G farban global reach, and fought successfully to

492
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 1: block Canada's effort to re strictly the export of steel

493
00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,359
Speaker 1: to German arms makers. According to one history, the firm

494
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,639
Speaker 1: quote represented several provincial governments, some large industrial combines, a

495
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,280
Speaker 1: number of big American companies with interest in the Reich,

496
00:28:15,359 --> 00:28:19,240
Speaker 1: and some rich individuals. By another account, it quote thrived

497
00:28:19,240 --> 00:28:22,240
Speaker 1: on its cartels and collusion with the new Nazi regime.

498
00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:25,399
Speaker 1: So the longer he does this, the more the deeper

499
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,960
Speaker 1: he gets into, specifically helping the German state arm itself. Right,

500
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:32,520
Speaker 1: Canada is trying to stop export of steel because they

501
00:28:32,520 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 1: see Germany arming Sullivan and Cromwell under Foster says, we

502
00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: gotta get around that. We gotta make sure these Nazis

503
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:45,200
Speaker 1: seven enough steel. Um. So his complicity deepens over time. Now,

504
00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 1: Alan actually spent a decent amount of time with like

505
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: real ass Nazis, including the Nazis Nazi of them all.

506
00:28:51,880 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: Oh sorry, then we're talking about Allen now, not Foster. Um.

507
00:28:55,800 --> 00:28:58,080
Speaker 1: And the difference between them in this is interesting because

508
00:28:58,120 --> 00:29:01,640
Speaker 1: Alan actually meets hit and I don't think Foster does.

509
00:29:01,680 --> 00:29:04,400
Speaker 1: Alan sits down with a fear in nineteen thirty three.

510
00:29:05,040 --> 00:29:08,320
Speaker 1: Um that said, he was not like his brother in this.

511
00:29:08,640 --> 00:29:10,680
Speaker 1: Alan actually met with Hitler in his role as a

512
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: diplomat and a spy. He was asked to do this

513
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 1: by f DR and a number it's like he was like,

514
00:29:16,520 --> 00:29:19,040
Speaker 1: f DR sends Alan Dules to Europe to meet with

515
00:29:19,120 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: Hitler and a couple of other European leaders, and Alan

516
00:29:22,000 --> 00:29:24,040
Speaker 1: and his partner in this project they're going on. A

517
00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:27,640
Speaker 1: diplomat named Davis asked Hitler about reports of violence against

518
00:29:27,640 --> 00:29:30,880
Speaker 1: political dissidents and Jews. Hitler claims that he was just

519
00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:34,240
Speaker 1: taking action to quote protect the millions in foreign capital

520
00:29:34,280 --> 00:29:37,080
Speaker 1: that are invested in Germany. So that is interesting to

521
00:29:37,120 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: me that, like FDR, while Foster is actively working with

522
00:29:40,360 --> 00:29:42,960
Speaker 1: the Nazis to help their economy and to help their rearming,

523
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 1: Alan gets sent over to spy on them with FDR,

524
00:29:46,000 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 1: and Alan asks them directly about all of the horrible

525
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,360
Speaker 1: Nazis ship they're doing, and Hitler says, all we're arresting

526
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: these people, were putting them in camps to protect foreign

527
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: capital that's invested in Germany. And it's obviously that's not

528
00:29:58,800 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: entirely why he was doing it, but I think it's

529
00:30:00,680 --> 00:30:03,160
Speaker 1: interesting that that's the line of argument he picks with

530
00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: the Americans. And you can see why you think it

531
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 1: would work, because there's guys like Foster now Alan Dulis

532
00:30:09,560 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: at this stage didn't see anything unsettling about the Nazis. However,

533
00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:17,040
Speaker 1: he returned to Berlin two years later in nineteen thirty five,

534
00:30:17,160 --> 00:30:19,920
Speaker 1: and could not ignore the brutality of the regime. He

535
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: reported back that Nazi Germany had left him with a

536
00:30:22,720 --> 00:30:27,960
Speaker 1: quote sinister impression. Stephen Kinser calls Nazism quote the first

537
00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:32,040
Speaker 1: and only important subject on which the Dulles brothers seriously disagreed.

538
00:30:32,720 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: That said, Alan's main issue with the Nazis was not

539
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:38,720
Speaker 1: their oppression of minorities or their murder of political rivals.

540
00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: It was that he was smart enough to guess where

541
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:43,640
Speaker 1: the whole fashionson thing was heading, and he knew that

542
00:30:43,760 --> 00:30:45,520
Speaker 1: he was pretty sure that the US is gonna wind

543
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 1: up at war with Nazi Germany. He wanted to spare

544
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,840
Speaker 1: Sullivan and Cromwell the shame of being associated with the

545
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:53,920
Speaker 1: regime once war broke out. That's really interesting to me that,

546
00:30:54,000 --> 00:30:57,959
Speaker 1: like of the two guys, Foster, who is driven by

547
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: a moral code, gets really deep in with the Nazis,

548
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 1: and Allan pretty quickly it's like, oh, these fuckers are

549
00:31:04,200 --> 00:31:07,360
Speaker 1: bad news, and it may just be self preservation. You know,

550
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,719
Speaker 1: and Alan helped some German Jews out of Nazi Germany?

551
00:31:12,760 --> 00:31:16,040
Speaker 1: Did he not? There's a yeah, I think there's we'll

552
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:20,480
Speaker 1: talk about what he did because it's complicated, Jason, This

553
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: is all complicated at the stage because obviously neither one

554
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,160
Speaker 1: of the brothers were like, oh, yeah, we'll be fine

555
00:31:25,200 --> 00:31:27,720
Speaker 1: with if several years from now Hitler is trying to

556
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:31,000
Speaker 1: you know, bomb the you know, England off the map.

557
00:31:31,520 --> 00:31:35,400
Speaker 1: Like no one wants a world war in Europe. It's

558
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: just that if it sounds like I'm not going far

559
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:43,480
Speaker 1: enough and criticizing the people friendly to the Nazis, it's

560
00:31:43,560 --> 00:31:47,360
Speaker 1: because I feel like it would be very easy decades

561
00:31:47,400 --> 00:31:49,479
Speaker 1: from now to look back and say, well, why was

562
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:53,520
Speaker 1: the United States so buddy buddy with China? And you

563
00:31:53,560 --> 00:31:57,280
Speaker 1: can see that with every modern genocide, and there's always

564
00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 1: financial interests who often are willing to keep profiting from

565
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:05,880
Speaker 1: the regime that's doing the genocide. You know, Um, it's

566
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: not it's more normal than not for for people to

567
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: go along with terrible things if they're not that closely

568
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:18,760
Speaker 1: tied to them, because the alternative is rocking the boat. Um.

569
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:20,800
Speaker 1: But I think what we're talking about, Foster here is

570
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 1: very different um because he really like his brother Alan.

571
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: After thirty five is like, these guys are bad news.

572
00:32:28,600 --> 00:32:30,600
Speaker 1: You know, you can argue Alan actually did have some

573
00:32:30,640 --> 00:32:32,440
Speaker 1: sort of a moral compass and he was just like,

574
00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:34,160
Speaker 1: this is a step too far, or you can say

575
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: it was just self preservation. But he's pretty consistent after

576
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 1: thirty five, these guys are a problem, and we need

577
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,280
Speaker 1: to be cut ties with them, we need to not

578
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:45,640
Speaker 1: be in business with them. What is fosterest position, then,

579
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:49,880
Speaker 1: is he's just so scared of the Communists by something else.

580
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: I think he likes them to some extent. I don't

581
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:55,440
Speaker 1: think he's a Nazi, because I don't get any hint

582
00:32:55,440 --> 00:32:58,240
Speaker 1: that he's like super an anti Semitism or whatever. I

583
00:32:58,240 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 1: don't think that he wants the United States, but he's

584
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: he refuses to turn his back on them, and in

585
00:33:04,600 --> 00:33:08,320
Speaker 1: fact he became their most enthusiastic cheerleader in the halls

586
00:33:08,320 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: of American power. He repeatedly pushed back against arguments by

587
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 1: other members of his law firms, some of whom were Jewish,

588
00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:17,720
Speaker 1: that they should reduce or end their dealings with the

589
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:21,480
Speaker 1: Third Reich. From nineteen thirty three, on all letters written

590
00:33:21,520 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 1: from the German offices of Sullivan and Cromwell ended with

591
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:27,800
Speaker 1: Heil Hitler. Now this was required by law, but it

592
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: was not something Foster had any problem with. While Alan

593
00:33:31,640 --> 00:33:35,880
Speaker 1: politely uh disagreed with his brother, their sister Eleanor was

594
00:33:36,040 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: much more outspoken on the matter. She too traveled to

595
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:41,800
Speaker 1: Nazi Germany and the horrors of the regime were not

596
00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: lost on her. She repeatedly begged Foster to stop doing

597
00:33:45,320 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: business with Hitler. He ignored her, complaining that she was

598
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 1: working herself up over nothing. When f DR denounced the

599
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 1: repressive measures of the Nazi government, Foster Dullus denounced f

600
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:01,680
Speaker 1: DR as a demagogue trying to drum up mass emotionalism.

601
00:34:01,800 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: One contemporary claimed that most of Foster's political energy in

602
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:09,440
Speaker 1: the nineteen thirties went towards quote rationalizing this Hitler movement.

603
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,759
Speaker 1: So he is not just kind of not wanting to

604
00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 1: rock the boat at a time in which it starts

605
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 1: to be politically acceptable in common to to to go

606
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,960
Speaker 1: against the Nazis. He's really still on their side. And

607
00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:30,000
Speaker 1: even his brother is like, dude, this ain't it, you know? Um.

608
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:34,240
Speaker 1: In the summer of nineteen thirty five, partners of Sullivan

609
00:34:34,239 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 1: and Cromwell hold a vote to determine whether or not

610
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,719
Speaker 1: they should cease representing German clients. The crimes of the

611
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 1: Nazi Nazi regime had become too blatant and numerous for

612
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: Foster's colleagues again, at least one of whom was Jewish

613
00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 1: to ignore. Foster complained that pulling out would harm the

614
00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:52,880
Speaker 1: firm's prestige. His brother Alan argued that staying was unconscionable.

615
00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,440
Speaker 1: In the end, everyone but Foster voted to suspend the

616
00:34:56,480 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: firm's operations in Nazi Germany. There are some account that

617
00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 1: Foster wept after the vote, Like as soon as his

618
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:05,880
Speaker 1: partners like say we're pulling out, he just like breaks down.

619
00:35:06,600 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: You know, who won't partner with the Nazi regime the

620
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:22,720
Speaker 1: products and services? Let's support this podcast. Oh we're back.

621
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:27,200
Speaker 1: We're back, and we're still talking about Nazis um and

622
00:35:27,360 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: namely how Foster Dolus deals with him. So in in

623
00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:34,120
Speaker 1: kind of late Ish nineteen thirty five, his firm votes

624
00:35:34,320 --> 00:35:37,560
Speaker 1: to stop doing business with the Nazis, he cries and

625
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:40,000
Speaker 1: I'm gonna quote from the brothers about what happens next.

626
00:35:40,800 --> 00:35:43,640
Speaker 1: Later he backdated the announcement the announcement that they cut

627
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 1: their ties with the Nazis by a year to make

628
00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: it appear that the firm had closed its German offices

629
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty four rather than thirty five. He and Janet, however,

630
00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:54,719
Speaker 1: continued to visit Germany as the Nazi regime tightened its

631
00:35:54,719 --> 00:35:58,600
Speaker 1: grip on power, making trips in nineteen thirty six, nineteen seven,

632
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 1: and nineteen thirty nine. Apparently nothing he saw disturbed him.

633
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 1: He supported the Neutralist America First Committee, Sullivan and Cromwell

634
00:36:07,239 --> 00:36:10,800
Speaker 1: drew up its articles of incorporation without charge and roused

635
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,560
Speaker 1: its members with speeches denouncing Churchill, Roosevelt, and other warmongers.

636
00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: Hitler impressed him as quote one who, from humble beginnings

637
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 1: and despite the handcap handicap of an alien nationality, had

638
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,879
Speaker 1: attained the unquestioned leadership of a great nation. Only hysteria

639
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,520
Speaker 1: entertains the idea that Germany, Italy or Japan contemplates war

640
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:34,000
Speaker 1: among upon us, he assured businessmen at the Economic Club

641
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: of New York on March twenty ninety nine. So he's

642
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:42,160
Speaker 1: pretty pretty pot committed Jason. Yeah. Yeah, And this is

643
00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: a point where there was plenty of evidence. There was

644
00:36:45,840 --> 00:36:49,080
Speaker 1: a long that you if you have lived in America

645
00:36:50,440 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: for five minutes, people have a way of getting dug

646
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,839
Speaker 1: into their positions and to how you can go from well,

647
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,359
Speaker 1: I don't support war all the way to well, you know,

648
00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:07,960
Speaker 1: Hitler is actually a great leader. It's the way we are.

649
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 1: It's uh, you know, I don't know. I feel like

650
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,080
Speaker 1: you can get dragged down a path of someone who

651
00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:18,680
Speaker 1: thinks that like they're standing up for righteousness or they

652
00:37:18,719 --> 00:37:23,440
Speaker 1: just don't want war. But there's a difference between look,

653
00:37:23,560 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: you know, someone like Hitler needs to be contained, but

654
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:29,000
Speaker 1: that a world war will kill tens of millions versus

655
00:37:30,280 --> 00:37:32,440
Speaker 1: you know, Hitler is actually the hero and all this,

656
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:36,320
Speaker 1: which is where it felt like he landed somehow. Yeah,

657
00:37:36,400 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 1: that's that's definitely kind of the side of this that

658
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 1: he's on. When the Nazis invaded Poland a few months later,

659
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:48,120
Speaker 1: Foster remained committed to the defending the regime. He gave

660
00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:50,879
Speaker 1: a public speech where he attacked Britain for declaring war

661
00:37:50,960 --> 00:37:53,879
Speaker 1: against Germany and reiterated his belief that there was no

662
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,440
Speaker 1: reason for the United States to get involved. Foster published

663
00:37:57,480 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: an open letter where he begged for a change in

664
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 1: the quote international status quo to prevent powerful forces emotionally

665
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 1: committed to exaggerated and drastic change. This was interpreted by

666
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:10,200
Speaker 1: his brother Alan to be a plea for the West

667
00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 1: to embrace Nazism in order to fight communism. We've already

668
00:38:15,000 --> 00:38:18,319
Speaker 1: established that Alan was something very close to it. You know,

669
00:38:18,440 --> 00:38:21,279
Speaker 1: narcissis associate had. There's some stuff going on there. You

670
00:38:21,320 --> 00:38:23,799
Speaker 1: could argue if you were as irresponsible as Jason and

671
00:38:23,840 --> 00:38:27,360
Speaker 1: I am. Um, and we are, and this is our podcast.

672
00:38:27,400 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: What are you gonna do about it? You gonna come

673
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,480
Speaker 1: in here and tell us we're wrong. You're not, But

674
00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,840
Speaker 1: Um Alan was actually despite whatever moral failings he has,

675
00:38:35,880 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: Alan was outraged with his brother's behavior at this point,

676
00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,280
Speaker 1: and he tried to appeal to his brother's religion, asking

677
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:45,160
Speaker 1: how can you call yourself a Christian and ignore what

678
00:38:45,280 --> 00:38:49,440
Speaker 1: is happening in Germany? It is terrible? So this is

679
00:38:49,640 --> 00:38:51,960
Speaker 1: and this is really interesting to me because Foster is

680
00:38:52,040 --> 00:38:55,040
Speaker 1: up to this point much more sympathetic than Alan. But

681
00:38:55,800 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 1: Alan does a monster is being like what is wrong

682
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: with you? Like? Why are you still defending the Nazis

683
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:06,800
Speaker 1: so much? Um, It's a very strange thing. It doesn't

684
00:39:06,800 --> 00:39:09,439
Speaker 1: go the way you would expect it to go. Yeah.

685
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 1: But and also there is some kind of a happy

686
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: ending of this because again John Foster Doulas standing up

687
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: for the Nazis even after they invaded Poland, he was

688
00:39:17,719 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 1: not canceled too hard for his pro hitler, so he

689
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:23,360
Speaker 1: he was able to come back from that, uh, that

690
00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 1: embarrassing period of his life. That gaff. Now, if Twitter

691
00:39:27,680 --> 00:39:30,600
Speaker 1: had existed, he would have gotten canceled, Jason. That's that's

692
00:39:30,600 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 1: what protects us now from similar disasters. So Foster DoLS

693
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: visited Nazi Germany for the last time, and I think

694
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: night um. He seems to have grudgingly accepted by this

695
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,240
Speaker 1: point that the Nazis were not a group he wanted

696
00:39:46,280 --> 00:39:50,520
Speaker 1: to be super publicly associated with, although again he would

697
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,440
Speaker 1: continue to defend them for a couple of years. Later

698
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:55,799
Speaker 1: in the year he decided to run for Congress. His

699
00:39:55,880 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 1: main platform was attacking the New Deal, complaining that instead

700
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,719
Speaker 1: of launched in new social programs, Roosevelt should fight the

701
00:40:02,719 --> 00:40:06,640
Speaker 1: depression by cutting government spending. He accused FDR of quote

702
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,880
Speaker 1: attempting to stir up class feeling by trying to regulate

703
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: the securities market. Foster's campaign went nowhere. He was a terrible,

704
00:40:14,280 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: terrible politic, while terrible at getting elected Um, but it

705
00:40:17,520 --> 00:40:21,160
Speaker 1: helped establish him as a political voice within the Republican Party.

706
00:40:21,440 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: By the late nineteen thirties, both Dullis brothers were working

707
00:40:24,120 --> 00:40:28,040
Speaker 1: for Sullivan and Cromwell, which, despite dropping Germany had you know,

708
00:40:28,120 --> 00:40:30,640
Speaker 1: continue to be the largest law firm in the United States.

709
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,120
Speaker 1: Historian Peter Gross argues that even calling it a law

710
00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,399
Speaker 1: firm is reductive to the point of inaccuracy. He saw

711
00:40:37,440 --> 00:40:41,000
Speaker 1: it as quote a strategic nexus of international finance, the

712
00:40:41,080 --> 00:40:44,400
Speaker 1: operating core of a web of relationships that constituted power.

713
00:40:44,800 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 1: The firm did offer legal associates to draft contracts, preserve estates,

714
00:40:48,400 --> 00:40:51,200
Speaker 1: and arguing courtrooms, but this was not the profession of

715
00:40:51,239 --> 00:40:54,720
Speaker 1: law as practiced by Foster and Alan Dulls. Their Sullivan

716
00:40:54,719 --> 00:40:57,480
Speaker 1: and Cromwell sought nothing less than to shape the affairs

717
00:40:57,520 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 1: of all the world for the benefit and well being

718
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:05,000
Speaker 1: of the elect their clients. It's a fascinating organization, Sullivan

719
00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 1: and Cromwell. UM, and I wonder how many listeners of

720
00:41:08,719 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 1: yours have ever heard the name of that firm. Before today,

721
00:41:13,200 --> 00:41:15,680
Speaker 1: I had only heard them mentioned and mentioned them in

722
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: this show during like the Panama episodes. But even then

723
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:20,120
Speaker 1: I didn't know this. I just knew that that was

724
00:41:20,160 --> 00:41:22,440
Speaker 1: like the lawyer who kind of I just you know,

725
00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:28,120
Speaker 1: had an angle in Panama. Yeah, it's a kid maybe

726
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,920
Speaker 1: something that ought to be in a textbook somewhere for kids. Maybe.

727
00:41:32,000 --> 00:41:35,600
Speaker 1: But I think even now we still think of the

728
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 1: world as a series of competing countries, and that's so reductive,

729
00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:45,760
Speaker 1: like that hasn't been true in a long time. Corporations

730
00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:51,520
Speaker 1: span borders, and their interest span borders, and it's it's

731
00:41:51,560 --> 00:41:56,839
Speaker 1: hard to understand that you can have two countries at

732
00:41:56,840 --> 00:41:59,240
Speaker 1: war with each other but the same corporation doing business

733
00:41:59,239 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 1: and both trying to arrange for things to follow a

734
00:42:02,239 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 1: certain way. You don't fully understand history until you understand

735
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 1: that element of it and the stuff we're gonna get

736
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,520
Speaker 1: into about going to war on behalf of fruit companies. Again,

737
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:17,400
Speaker 1: that it's you talk about like the phrase banana republic,

738
00:42:17,440 --> 00:42:23,839
Speaker 1: and that's where that comes from. Right. Um, even now,

739
00:42:23,880 --> 00:42:26,720
Speaker 1: I think the average person has a completely incorrect mental

740
00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:30,759
Speaker 1: picture because how a law firm could have that big

741
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: of a role in shaping the world seems again like

742
00:42:35,640 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: the stuff of conspiracy theories. But it's really understanding that

743
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 1: the movement of capital and what why that matters, and

744
00:42:43,560 --> 00:42:50,399
Speaker 1: that how that influences the decisions that politicians make. That's

745
00:42:50,440 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: not conspiracy stuff. That's the way the world functions now

746
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: in a global economy, and you have to almost think

747
00:42:57,840 --> 00:43:00,319
Speaker 1: of it in terms of like the these alliances are

748
00:43:00,400 --> 00:43:03,520
Speaker 1: less important in many cases than the corporations that span

749
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: the borders and what they're what they're trying to accomplish,

750
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:10,000
Speaker 1: and especially you come down to things like workers advocating

751
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 1: for certain rights in certain countries and things like that.

752
00:43:13,120 --> 00:43:19,359
Speaker 1: That's going to play into everything that's about to happen. Yep, yeah,

753
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,360
Speaker 1: it sure is, it sure is, Jason. Not in a

754
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,680
Speaker 1: good way. No, not, Nothing that happens on this show

755
00:43:25,760 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 1: is in a good way. As a general rule. That's

756
00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 1: that's behind the Bastard's Guarantee. When one of your main

757
00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: sources is called the Devil's chessboard, you're you're in for

758
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:46,760
Speaker 1: an upbeat episode. Good times for everybody. Oh lord, oh Jason.

759
00:43:46,920 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: So yeah, And in this idea, the fact that Sullivan

760
00:43:51,520 --> 00:43:53,440
Speaker 1: and Cromwell should shape the affairs of the world for

761
00:43:53,480 --> 00:43:55,720
Speaker 1: the benefit of their clients. This was something the Dullis

762
00:43:55,719 --> 00:43:57,880
Speaker 1: brothers agreed with right. They may have had a little

763
00:43:57,880 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 1: bit of a debate over whether or not Zism was okay,

764
00:44:01,480 --> 00:44:04,960
Speaker 1: but they were on board for this um. Now. During

765
00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:07,800
Speaker 1: World War One, both brothers had kind of fully fallen

766
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:11,000
Speaker 1: under this way of will. The Wilson i um concept

767
00:44:11,400 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 1: that's known as liberal internationalism, and the basic idea behind

768
00:44:15,719 --> 00:44:21,759
Speaker 1: liberal internationalism is that international conflict arises only from misunderstandings

769
00:44:21,800 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 1: between ruling elites, social injustices, political oppression, religious and ethnic strife.

770
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:29,719
Speaker 1: This all is a distraction from the real issue, which

771
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,600
Speaker 1: is people in charge of different countries not getting along.

772
00:44:33,000 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 1: Since international conflict is just conflict between elites, then commerce

773
00:44:37,760 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: is the ultimate way to guarantee peace. Right. That's how

774
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:42,880
Speaker 1: it feeds back into their ideas of capitalism, because you

775
00:44:42,960 --> 00:44:47,759
Speaker 1: guarantee peace by ensuring the international movement of corporations like

776
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:51,520
Speaker 1: basically and and of financial interests. It's and this is

777
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 1: a pretty common idea, right that if you have a

778
00:44:53,800 --> 00:44:56,359
Speaker 1: two nations with McDonald's and them have never gone to war,

779
00:44:56,480 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 1: you know, stuff like that. I think we we've all

780
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:04,560
Speaker 1: heard like versions of this idea. Um. Now, internationalists like

781
00:45:04,640 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 1: the Dullus brothers felt that the United States had a

782
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:09,800
Speaker 1: duty to embrace its destiny as the world's great power.

783
00:45:10,200 --> 00:45:13,840
Speaker 1: American value should be spread through the world, across the

784
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:17,440
Speaker 1: world through the engine of American business. The state's main

785
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,399
Speaker 1: role then is to use its power, and particularly it's

786
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:24,440
Speaker 1: armed might, in order to promote and defend American business

787
00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:28,120
Speaker 1: interests abroad. Foster Dullus had spent most of his life

788
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:31,720
Speaker 1: even prior to World War One, doing this job. Alan

789
00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:34,160
Speaker 1: Dullas came to embrace his role as defender of the

790
00:45:34,160 --> 00:45:37,240
Speaker 1: wealthy and powerful in the post war years. One historian

791
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:40,759
Speaker 1: wrote that he quote never bothered to understand the technical

792
00:45:40,840 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 1: aspects of financial maneuverings, but under the influence of Foster

793
00:45:44,080 --> 00:45:46,640
Speaker 1: in the firm, he grew sensitive to the elites goal

794
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:49,920
Speaker 1: of transnational power to generate prosperity for the world and

795
00:45:49,960 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 1: of course themselves. Now, Foster and Alan were some of

796
00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 1: the founding members of the Council on Foreign Relations. This

797
00:45:57,960 --> 00:46:01,360
Speaker 1: is something they helped to create. The CFR was established

798
00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:03,600
Speaker 1: in the early nineteen twenties. And this is something you

799
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:06,759
Speaker 1: see in conspiracy theories all the time. The CFR is

800
00:46:06,800 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 1: in a billion different conspiracy theories. Um for good reason,

801
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,000
Speaker 1: I mean sometimes for good reason, often for nonsense. Reasons

802
00:46:14,560 --> 00:46:17,440
Speaker 1: uh now. The CFR was established in the early twenties

803
00:46:17,480 --> 00:46:19,839
Speaker 1: with the goal of bringing powerful people together to further

804
00:46:19,880 --> 00:46:22,880
Speaker 1: the ends of American corporate and political power. The club

805
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: was invitation only, and membership became highly desired, both for

806
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:28,640
Speaker 1: prestige and because it de facto put you in a

807
00:46:28,719 --> 00:46:31,240
Speaker 1: room with the wealthiest and most influential people on earth.

808
00:46:31,640 --> 00:46:35,560
Speaker 1: The club's motto was a single Latin word, ubiquay, which

809
00:46:35,600 --> 00:46:39,279
Speaker 1: means everywhere. So again, not hard to see why there's

810
00:46:39,320 --> 00:46:41,919
Speaker 1: so many conspiracies about this group. And I think their

811
00:46:41,960 --> 00:46:46,000
Speaker 1: logo was like an octopus strangling the globe. Possibly, yes,

812
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: it is an octopus murdering children, um is the logo,

813
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: and drinking their blood which is rich in a dren

814
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 1: of chrome um. Jesus, Like did these people don't even?

815
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 1: Did you? Do you not listen to yourselves? Is the

816
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: question I would like to ask them, Like, look at

817
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:06,120
Speaker 1: what you how how could how would you expect people

818
00:47:06,200 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 1: not to start turning out conspiracy theories about this ship?

819
00:47:09,560 --> 00:47:12,920
Speaker 1: When you when you say ship like that? Anyway? As

820
00:47:12,920 --> 00:47:16,120
Speaker 1: World War Two drew nearer, Foster devoted himself increasingly to

821
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: writing articles for foreign affairs. The New Republic and the Atlantic,

822
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:24,600
Speaker 1: establishing a reputation as a sagacious foreign policy expert. Allen

823
00:47:24,719 --> 00:47:28,080
Speaker 1: meanwhile found himself drifting away from legal pursuits and towards

824
00:47:28,120 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 1: another special club called the Room. The Room was made

825
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 1: up of thirties year old bankers are thirty Ish bankers, businessmen,

826
00:47:36,120 --> 00:47:39,960
Speaker 1: and corporate lawyers with deep contacts and foreign capitals. Most

827
00:47:40,000 --> 00:47:43,520
Speaker 1: of them were like Alan, men with intelligence and espionage

828
00:47:43,600 --> 00:47:46,839
Speaker 1: backgrounds from the last war. Now the head of this

829
00:47:46,880 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 1: little club, the Room, was a guy named William Donovan. Now,

830
00:47:51,160 --> 00:47:54,399
Speaker 1: Donovan was a war hero slash corporate lawyer with an

831
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 1: interest in the burgeoning field of intelligence. Donovan and Alan

832
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:02,040
Speaker 1: Dulles advised FDR on overt operations abroad in the pre

833
00:48:02,120 --> 00:48:04,920
Speaker 1: World War two years, and they used their connections to

834
00:48:05,000 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 1: arrange corporate cover for American agents headed into Nazi Europe

835
00:48:08,680 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 1: or the Soviet Union. When the war broke out for

836
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:16,360
Speaker 1: the United States, the Room morphed rather naturally into the OSS,

837
00:48:16,400 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 1: the Office of Strategic Services. This was the chief US

838
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,879
Speaker 1: spy agency of World War Two and the direct predecessor

839
00:48:23,960 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 1: of the CIA. But I'm getting ahead of myself here.

840
00:48:27,040 --> 00:48:29,359
Speaker 1: As the war drew nearer, Bill Donovan and a few

841
00:48:29,360 --> 00:48:31,640
Speaker 1: other far sighted men saw that the United States was

842
00:48:31,640 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 1: going to need an intelligence agency. In nineteen forty the

843
00:48:34,840 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: U s had basically no intelligence set up. What had

844
00:48:37,719 --> 00:48:40,919
Speaker 1: existed during World War One had basically been tossed into

845
00:48:40,960 --> 00:48:44,880
Speaker 1: the trash been In the intervening years, eight different government agencies,

846
00:48:44,920 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 1: including the FCC, gathered foreign intel in one form or another,

847
00:48:48,920 --> 00:48:50,760
Speaker 1: but none of them had any idea what the others

848
00:48:50,760 --> 00:48:54,319
Speaker 1: were doing. There was no Internet agency communication. Most of

849
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:56,920
Speaker 1: what the White House knew about the foreign about foreign

850
00:48:56,960 --> 00:49:00,200
Speaker 1: countries internal affairs came from guys like Donovan, who the

851
00:49:00,239 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 1: President personally and traveled around doing his you know, spy

852
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:05,880
Speaker 1: work on their own. So in the US entered the

853
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,279
Speaker 1: war in nineteen forty one, the OSS was established to

854
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:13,760
Speaker 1: formalize these very ad hoc intelligence networks. Alan Dullas joined

855
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 1: the OSS, and once again he was sent to Burn

856
00:49:16,600 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 1: for the duration of the war to get what intel

857
00:49:18,640 --> 00:49:21,479
Speaker 1: he could on Nazi occupied Europe, and again he wasn't

858
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:25,120
Speaker 1: great at his job. Donovan's aids regularly complained about the

859
00:49:25,160 --> 00:49:27,960
Speaker 1: low quality of the intelligence coming out of Burn. In

860
00:49:28,040 --> 00:49:33,319
Speaker 1: nineteen forty four, Alan was responsible for two hilariously inaccurate predictions,

861
00:49:33,360 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 1: both based on bad intel. Prior to the Normandy landings,

862
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,040
Speaker 1: he told his superiors that the Nazi regime was quote

863
00:49:39,239 --> 00:49:42,080
Speaker 1: near collapse and that the Allies would just haven't thus

864
00:49:42,120 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 1: have an easy time in France on D Day, which

865
00:49:45,280 --> 00:49:48,839
Speaker 1: I don't know if you've watched the documentary Saving Private Ryan,

866
00:49:48,880 --> 00:49:53,120
Speaker 1: but we did not. There were some bad days after

867
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:57,320
Speaker 1: the invasion. Now, Alan Dullas was a very prominent figure

868
00:49:57,320 --> 00:49:58,919
Speaker 1: by the time the os S sent him to Burn,

869
00:49:59,000 --> 00:50:01,799
Speaker 1: and every German a in the country knew why he

870
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:03,920
Speaker 1: was there as soon it was like publicized that he'd

871
00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,640
Speaker 1: arrived and that he was a spy. His guys as

872
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,200
Speaker 1: a spy then did not fool anybody. Nobody got tricked

873
00:50:09,200 --> 00:50:12,040
Speaker 1: into thinking he was really a diplomat. By some accounts,

874
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:14,080
Speaker 1: the main reason he was put in that position in

875
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:17,640
Speaker 1: Burn at all was because his presence would draw out Nazis,

876
00:50:18,200 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 1: and while Allen was in Burn, he didn't just spy

877
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:25,160
Speaker 1: on Nazis, he worked alongside them. See. One of Alan's

878
00:50:25,160 --> 00:50:27,640
Speaker 1: buddies during this period was a guy named Thomas McKittrick,

879
00:50:27,760 --> 00:50:31,360
Speaker 1: president of the Bank of International Sediments Settlements. The b

880
00:50:31,560 --> 00:50:34,399
Speaker 1: i S was one of the shadiest banks in history.

881
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: Although nominally Swiss, by nineteen forty the b I S

882
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,880
Speaker 1: was controlled by the Nazi regime. Five of its directors

883
00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:44,840
Speaker 1: would later be charged with war crimes incurred, including Hermann Schmitz,

884
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,360
Speaker 1: who was also the CEO of I G. Farban, the

885
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:51,840
Speaker 1: chemical conglomerate that manufactured zekelon b. Schmitz, by the way,

886
00:50:52,160 --> 00:50:56,160
Speaker 1: was also a client of Sullivan and Cromwell fun now

887
00:50:56,760 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 1: tied together. All this is so the b I S

888
00:51:00,560 --> 00:51:04,240
Speaker 1: became a critical partner to the Nazi regime, laundering hundreds

889
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,400
Speaker 1: of millions of dollars in Nazi gold that had been

890
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 1: looted from occupied countries. Some of this gold had literally

891
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,600
Speaker 1: been ripped out of the bodies of concentration camp inmates.

892
00:51:13,040 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 1: When Dulas and McKittrick started talking, one of Allen's goals

893
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: was to get information about the Nazi regime from McKittrick,

894
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 1: which is reasonable, But when he and McKittrick got to talking,

895
00:51:22,080 --> 00:51:25,120
Speaker 1: they discovered a point of common interest. They both had

896
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: friends and clients with assets in Nazi Germany, and they

897
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:32,520
Speaker 1: wanted to protect those assets. Now FDR and his people

898
00:51:32,560 --> 00:51:34,719
Speaker 1: were aware of what Allan Doulas was getting up to,

899
00:51:34,840 --> 00:51:39,560
Speaker 1: and they tried to stop McKittrick. Treasury Secretary Henry morganthal Jr.

900
00:51:39,640 --> 00:51:42,400
Speaker 1: Hated the man and pushed the administration to block b

901
00:51:42,560 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 1: i S funds from being used in the United States.

902
00:51:45,920 --> 00:51:49,960
Speaker 1: McKittrick hired Foster Doulas to be his lawyer, and Foster

903
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:53,840
Speaker 1: was able to reverse Morgan Thou's order. In nineteen forty three,

904
00:51:53,920 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 1: McKittrick even traveled to the United States for a banquet

905
00:51:56,840 --> 00:52:00,840
Speaker 1: in his honor, hosted by executives from General Motors, Standard Oil,

906
00:52:01,040 --> 00:52:03,600
Speaker 1: and other companies that had profited from aiding the Nazi

907
00:52:03,640 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 1: war effort and were grateful that McKittrick had gotten their

908
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:09,359
Speaker 1: money out of the country. Now, as World War Two

909
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:12,440
Speaker 1: drew to a close, McKittrick and Allan Dulas would collaborate

910
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: on their shadiest venture yet from the Devil's Chessboard quote.

911
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:19,160
Speaker 1: In the final months of the conflict, the men collaborated

912
00:52:19,200 --> 00:52:22,960
Speaker 1: against a Roosevelt operation called Project safe Haven that sought

913
00:52:22,960 --> 00:52:26,040
Speaker 1: to track down and confiscate Nazi assets that were stashed

914
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 1: in neutral countries. Administration officials feared that by hiding their

915
00:52:29,960 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: ill gotten wealth, members of the German elite planned to

916
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:35,040
Speaker 1: bide their time after the war and would then try

917
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:39,400
Speaker 1: to regain power. Morgan Thaous Treasury Department team, which spearheaded

918
00:52:39,440 --> 00:52:42,080
Speaker 1: Projects safe Haven, reached out to the OSS and b

919
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:45,120
Speaker 1: I s for assistance, but Dullas and McKittrick were more

920
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:48,719
Speaker 1: inclined to protect their client's interests. Moreover, like many in

921
00:52:48,760 --> 00:52:52,200
Speaker 1: the upper echelons of US finance and National security, Dullas

922
00:52:52,239 --> 00:52:54,720
Speaker 1: believed that a good number of these powerful German figures

923
00:52:54,719 --> 00:52:57,520
Speaker 1: should be returned to post war power to ensure that

924
00:52:57,600 --> 00:53:00,840
Speaker 1: Germany would be a strong bulwark against the Soviet Union,

925
00:53:02,040 --> 00:53:05,759
Speaker 1: and working with McKittrick, Alan Dulas was hugely successful installing

926
00:53:05,800 --> 00:53:09,759
Speaker 1: Projects safe Haven and ensuring that many surviving Nazi collaborators

927
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:14,080
Speaker 1: escaped the war with their fortunes intact. But you know

928
00:53:14,160 --> 00:53:18,560
Speaker 1: who didn't escape the war their fortunes intact? The products

929
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 1: and services here's here's some fucking ads. You know what

930
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 1: we're doing here. So we're back and we're talking about

931
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 1: how Alan Dulas helped get Nazi money out of Europe

932
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,920
Speaker 1: and helped Nazi collaborators escaped the war with their all

933
00:53:37,920 --> 00:53:41,360
Speaker 1: their money. So Foster was also involved in the protecting

934
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:44,880
Speaker 1: Nazi fortunes game, working from New York. He used the

935
00:53:44,960 --> 00:53:47,399
Speaker 1: kind of corporate bullshit math people like him are great

936
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 1: at to hide the US assets of I. G. Farban

937
00:53:50,160 --> 00:53:53,120
Speaker 1: Merk and other German cartels that legally should have been

938
00:53:53,120 --> 00:53:57,279
Speaker 1: confiscated by the federal government. David Talbot writes, quote, some

939
00:53:57,440 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 1: of Foster's legal origami allowed the Nazi regime to create

940
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:03,440
Speaker 1: bottlenecks in the production of essential war materials such as

941
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:06,800
Speaker 1: dies diesel fuel injection motors that the US military needed

942
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 1: for trucks, submarines, and airplanes. By the end of the war,

943
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:13,240
Speaker 1: many of Foster's clients were under investigation by the Justice

944
00:54:13,280 --> 00:54:17,000
Speaker 1: Department's Anti Trust Division, and Foster himself was under scrutiny

945
00:54:17,040 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 1: for collaboration with the enemy. But Foster's brother was guarding

946
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,880
Speaker 1: his back from his frontline position in Europe. Allen was

947
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:25,839
Speaker 1: well placed to destroy incriminating evidence and to block any

948
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 1: investigations that threatened the two brothers and their law firm.

949
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:31,920
Speaker 1: Shredding of captured Nazi records was the favorite tactic of

950
00:54:32,000 --> 00:54:34,799
Speaker 1: Dullus and his associates, who stayed behind to help run

951
00:54:34,840 --> 00:54:39,040
Speaker 1: the occupation of post war Germany. Observed Nazi hunter John Loftus,

952
00:54:39,040 --> 00:54:42,040
Speaker 1: who poured through numerous war documents related to the Dullus

953
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:44,680
Speaker 1: brothers when he served as US Prosecutor in the Justice

954
00:54:44,680 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 1: Department under President Jimmy Carter. So pretty cool brothers all

955
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:55,160
Speaker 1: all together. It's hard to overstate that the fact that

956
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,359
Speaker 1: even before, for people that are not World War two

957
00:54:58,560 --> 00:55:03,279
Speaker 1: history bus, the fear of the Soviet Union and the

958
00:55:03,320 --> 00:55:09,200
Speaker 1: beginning of the Cold War started before World War Two

959
00:55:09,320 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 1: was over. We're not going to get off into the

960
00:55:11,600 --> 00:55:14,080
Speaker 1: use of the atomic bomb, and how part of that

961
00:55:14,320 --> 00:55:17,799
Speaker 1: had to do with positioning with jockey for position with

962
00:55:17,840 --> 00:55:21,880
Speaker 1: the Soviets, and everyone knew what was coming next, or

963
00:55:21,880 --> 00:55:23,840
Speaker 1: at least the people who pulled the strings of Howard

964
00:55:23,920 --> 00:55:25,880
Speaker 1: knew what was coming next, that you were going to

965
00:55:25,960 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 1: transition neatly from this war right into possibly Okay, when

966
00:55:33,480 --> 00:55:36,359
Speaker 1: we set up the Manhattan Project, we didn't set up

967
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 1: a project to build two bombs. We set up to

968
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,960
Speaker 1: build a whole bunch of them, because even though we

969
00:55:43,040 --> 00:55:45,320
Speaker 1: knew it wasn't gonna take a whole bunch to defeat

970
00:55:45,440 --> 00:55:50,320
Speaker 1: Nazi Germany, those were being built for whatever was coming

971
00:55:50,360 --> 00:55:54,280
Speaker 1: with the Soviets. So the fact that they so quickly

972
00:55:54,440 --> 00:55:57,439
Speaker 1: pivoted from okay, we've beaten the Nazis. Now we need

973
00:55:57,480 --> 00:56:03,520
Speaker 1: to protect what of her business interests against the whatever

974
00:56:03,600 --> 00:56:05,920
Speaker 1: is coming from the threat of communism, which is going

975
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:09,719
Speaker 1: to inform these guys entire worldview right of the next

976
00:56:09,719 --> 00:56:14,480
Speaker 1: couple of decades that they're alive. That happened immediately, like

977
00:56:14,880 --> 00:56:17,720
Speaker 1: as the World War Two was winding down, the people

978
00:56:17,760 --> 00:56:21,080
Speaker 1: who would be the Cold warriors were already kind of

979
00:56:21,120 --> 00:56:24,640
Speaker 1: getting into position. Yeah, and that's a big part of

980
00:56:24,680 --> 00:56:28,040
Speaker 1: what's happening here now. The death of Franklin delan Or

981
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:30,560
Speaker 1: Roosevelt immediately prior to the end of World War Two

982
00:56:30,800 --> 00:56:34,440
Speaker 1: was hugely fortunate for the Dullest brothers. David Talbot argues

983
00:56:34,480 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 1: that had FDR survived the war, they probably would have

984
00:56:37,520 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 1: faced criminal charges. Supreme Court Justice Arthur Goldberg, who served

985
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:45,280
Speaker 1: with Allan in the OSS, later claimed that both brothers

986
00:56:45,320 --> 00:56:48,240
Speaker 1: were guilty of treason during World War Two, and again,

987
00:56:48,480 --> 00:56:51,799
Speaker 1: Supreme Court Justice, you know, like not not, this is

988
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:54,919
Speaker 1: not a fringe attitude that these guys committed treason during

989
00:56:54,960 --> 00:56:57,760
Speaker 1: the war. Um, but of course they were not punished.

990
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:00,920
Speaker 1: When the war ended. Alan stayed on with the OSS.

991
00:57:01,360 --> 00:57:03,759
Speaker 1: His first two jobs were to gather evidence that could

992
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:08,480
Speaker 1: be used in the Nuremberg War crimes trials, and his

993
00:57:08,560 --> 00:57:12,360
Speaker 1: other job was to bring Nazi spy master Reinhard Galen

994
00:57:12,480 --> 00:57:15,160
Speaker 1: into the OSS to help them spy on the Soviets.

995
00:57:15,440 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 1: So his jobs are both find evidence about these Nazi

996
00:57:18,440 --> 00:57:20,640
Speaker 1: war criminals who we can prosecute them, and you know

997
00:57:20,680 --> 00:57:25,520
Speaker 1: this guy who ran the Nazi secret police, hire him,

998
00:57:25,560 --> 00:57:27,840
Speaker 1: not again, not the only Nazi who's going to be

999
00:57:28,080 --> 00:57:33,960
Speaker 1: getting by. It was a whole it was a whole thing,

1000
00:57:33,360 --> 00:57:37,120
Speaker 1: whole Well, if you know American history, the line between

1001
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,680
Speaker 1: behavior that will get you executed for treason and that

1002
00:57:40,720 --> 00:57:43,160
Speaker 1: will get you put in charge of the country is

1003
00:57:43,200 --> 00:57:47,920
Speaker 1: surprisingly blurry. Yeah, it's it really is on which side

1004
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 1: of that line you can land on any given moment.

1005
00:57:51,240 --> 00:57:55,080
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, And it's some speaking of other Nazis, there's

1006
00:57:55,080 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 1: a TV show out now called for All Mankind that's

1007
00:57:57,800 --> 00:57:59,680
Speaker 1: like an un alternate history of like what if the

1008
00:57:59,760 --> 00:58:01,400
Speaker 1: so it has gotten to the moon first? And it

1009
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:04,240
Speaker 1: kind of reimagines the space race, you know, and how

1010
00:58:04,240 --> 00:58:06,760
Speaker 1: it would have changed as a result of that. Um.

1011
00:58:06,840 --> 00:58:09,280
Speaker 1: One of the guys, a real guy who was probably

1012
00:58:09,320 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 1: the single man most responsible for the U S rocket

1013
00:58:12,000 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 1: program was Werner von Brown, who built the Nazi V

1014
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:18,040
Speaker 1: two rockets. UM. And there's a couple of really good

1015
00:58:18,080 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 1: scenes with Von Brown in the show, UM that I

1016
00:58:20,440 --> 00:58:24,280
Speaker 1: actually think, do a do do? Do him do justice

1017
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:26,680
Speaker 1: to what he did? But yeah, you're right, Jason, this

1018
00:58:26,760 --> 00:58:30,000
Speaker 1: is a ton of guys that they do this with. UM.

1019
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 1: But it's interesting to me that Alan's job is both

1020
00:58:32,360 --> 00:58:35,120
Speaker 1: to find evidence about Nazi war crimes and to hire

1021
00:58:35,160 --> 00:58:38,360
Speaker 1: a Nazi spy master. UM. And we'll talk about Reinhard

1022
00:58:38,400 --> 00:58:41,480
Speaker 1: Galen a little more in the next episode. UM. So

1023
00:58:41,680 --> 00:58:46,440
Speaker 1: Allen worked on these tasks until September, when President Harry

1024
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 1: Truman signed in order abolishing the OSS. During the war,

1025
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:54,040
Speaker 1: the agency had accumulated a number of secret powers that

1026
00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:56,840
Speaker 1: were seen as necessary for the survival of the nation.

1027
00:58:57,400 --> 00:59:00,600
Speaker 1: Truman was worried that these powers in peacetime might be

1028
00:59:00,680 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 1: a threat to American democracy. He transferred the OSS research

1029
00:59:05,000 --> 00:59:07,800
Speaker 1: Unit to the State Department and its espionage units to

1030
00:59:07,800 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 1: the War Department. Alan, Dulis and most of his fellow spooks, though,

1031
00:59:11,720 --> 00:59:15,320
Speaker 1: found themselves out of a job. The years immediately following

1032
00:59:15,320 --> 00:59:17,720
Speaker 1: World War Two were rough ones for Alan and Foster.

1033
00:59:18,160 --> 00:59:21,240
Speaker 1: Allen was particularly unhappy with peace and spent his free

1034
00:59:21,240 --> 00:59:24,680
Speaker 1: time writing letters to old Oss comrades and saying things like,

1035
00:59:25,120 --> 00:59:28,080
Speaker 1: most of my time is spent reliving those exciting days.

1036
00:59:28,600 --> 00:59:31,000
Speaker 1: So he's actually kind of depressed after World War Two

1037
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:32,840
Speaker 1: because he doesn't get to be a fun spy anymore.

1038
00:59:33,600 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 1: Foster does better in the post war years. He expands

1039
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,600
Speaker 1: his reputation as a public intellectual. During the war, he

1040
00:59:39,640 --> 00:59:42,640
Speaker 1: had been overcome by a new flowering of his Christian faith,

1041
00:59:42,920 --> 00:59:45,680
Speaker 1: which led him to preach tolerance and forgiveness and urge

1042
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 1: peace between the warring powers. But starting in late nineteen five,

1043
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:52,320
Speaker 1: he changed rapidly in the direction of a hawk. The

1044
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:55,040
Speaker 1: cause was, of course, the U. S. S R. From

1045
00:59:55,080 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 1: the Brothers quote. In a series of articles for Life,

1046
00:59:58,200 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 1: he painted a steadily more frightening pa sure of the

1047
01:00:00,400 --> 01:00:03,160
Speaker 1: Soviet threat. His first major volley was a two part

1048
01:00:03,200 --> 01:00:07,320
Speaker 1: series published in June ninety six entitled Thoughts on Soviet

1049
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:09,560
Speaker 1: Conduct and What to Do About It. In it, he

1050
01:00:09,640 --> 01:00:12,760
Speaker 1: set the urgent tone that defined how he um, the

1051
01:00:12,800 --> 01:00:16,000
Speaker 1: Republican and Democratic parties, and most Americans would view the

1052
01:00:16,040 --> 01:00:20,080
Speaker 1: world for a generation. Soviet leaders, Foster wrote, had launched

1053
01:00:20,080 --> 01:00:24,240
Speaker 1: a worldwide campaign that aimed to subjugate the West, to quote,

1054
01:00:24,400 --> 01:00:27,600
Speaker 1: eliminate what are to us the essentials of a free society,

1055
01:00:27,920 --> 01:00:31,120
Speaker 1: and to impose on conquered people's a system repugnant to

1056
01:00:31,160 --> 01:00:34,960
Speaker 1: our ideals of humanity and fair play. Already, he asserted,

1057
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:37,440
Speaker 1: the Soviets had built a shadowy network of allies and

1058
01:00:37,520 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 1: non communist countries who pretended to be patriots but in

1059
01:00:40,720 --> 01:00:45,560
Speaker 1: reality take much guidance from Moscow. This made Soviet Communism

1060
01:00:45,600 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 1: the unseen force directing nationalist movements in Asia, Africa and

1061
01:00:49,520 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 1: Latin America. Never in history have a few men in

1062
01:00:52,720 --> 01:00:58,040
Speaker 1: a single country achieved such worldwide influence, he concluded, And

1063
01:00:58,120 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 1: here we go. This is a huge part of what

1064
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 1: the John Birch society becomes. Right, And he's not a

1065
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:07,280
Speaker 1: fringe figure. The Birches are. He's not everything about that

1066
01:01:07,320 --> 01:01:10,320
Speaker 1: we kind of take for granted about the way to

1067
01:01:10,440 --> 01:01:14,000
Speaker 1: this day we talk about the world will eventually be

1068
01:01:14,080 --> 01:01:18,760
Speaker 1: either all communist or it will be all America. It

1069
01:01:18,800 --> 01:01:21,160
Speaker 1: will all be America. There will there will either be

1070
01:01:22,520 --> 01:01:24,840
Speaker 1: Chick fil A restaurants in every country in the world,

1071
01:01:25,000 --> 01:01:27,439
Speaker 1: or else we will all fall to China. But the

1072
01:01:27,440 --> 01:01:30,960
Speaker 1: the the idea that the world will eventually be all

1073
01:01:31,080 --> 01:01:35,320
Speaker 1: one thing or all the other. This is where it starts,

1074
01:01:35,640 --> 01:01:39,840
Speaker 1: and once that idea takes hold, to this day we

1075
01:01:39,880 --> 01:01:43,480
Speaker 1: still live under that. When you know, when nine eleven happened,

1076
01:01:44,000 --> 01:01:46,960
Speaker 1: there was no thought of attacking that as this is

1077
01:01:47,000 --> 01:01:49,280
Speaker 1: a single terrorist group and these people need to be

1078
01:01:49,360 --> 01:01:53,600
Speaker 1: arrested and rooted out. It's no this is worldwide Islam,

1079
01:01:54,120 --> 01:01:57,640
Speaker 1: that we must fight a war everywhere because the whole

1080
01:01:57,720 --> 01:02:01,640
Speaker 1: world will either be under the umbrella of al Qaeda,

1081
01:02:02,000 --> 01:02:04,240
Speaker 1: or else the whole world will be under the umbrella

1082
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:08,440
Speaker 1: of American Christianity and capitalism. And there is like this

1083
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:13,120
Speaker 1: idea that it's everywhere, the enemy is everywhere, and the

1084
01:02:13,240 --> 01:02:18,560
Speaker 1: we must therefore also be everywhere. We must have spies everywhere,

1085
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:21,520
Speaker 1: we must have bases everywhere. This, in my view, is

1086
01:02:21,520 --> 01:02:24,520
Speaker 1: where it starts. It's so important to note that, Jason,

1087
01:02:25,320 --> 01:02:30,120
Speaker 1: because that didn't used to be how conflict work, right,

1088
01:02:30,400 --> 01:02:33,560
Speaker 1: They didn't. It didn't. It's you like, it didn't always

1089
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:35,760
Speaker 1: have to be like, Okay, well, this group of people

1090
01:02:35,760 --> 01:02:38,439
Speaker 1: has attacked us, which means we're now in an existential

1091
01:02:38,480 --> 01:02:42,280
Speaker 1: struggle for the future of the entire human race. Um.

1092
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:45,800
Speaker 1: But that's the only place the rhetoric goes now, Like

1093
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:48,040
Speaker 1: instantly now down to the point where like people are

1094
01:02:48,240 --> 01:02:49,840
Speaker 1: there are people who will talk that way about like

1095
01:02:49,880 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 1: fucking cancel culture right that it's like the start of

1096
01:02:53,160 --> 01:02:57,480
Speaker 1: this slide into a totalitarian healthscape, because that's that's just

1097
01:02:57,560 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 1: where once you raise the rhetoric to that level, it's

1098
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:02,080
Speaker 1: it's I mean, for one thing, it's unprofitable to have

1099
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:04,080
Speaker 1: it be anywhere lower, right, You're just not going to

1100
01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:06,160
Speaker 1: get people interested, and then you don't make that sweet

1101
01:03:06,200 --> 01:03:11,360
Speaker 1: sub stack money. Are you gonna get on substack? Jason,

1102
01:03:13,120 --> 01:03:17,280
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't know. It's I've heard it will

1103
01:03:17,320 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 1: come down to how it's CMS is set up. Is

1104
01:03:20,200 --> 01:03:23,640
Speaker 1: it easy to use? I don't know, but yeah, I'm

1105
01:03:23,680 --> 01:03:26,600
Speaker 1: thinking about it. I think I think, I think I could.

1106
01:03:26,640 --> 01:03:29,680
Speaker 1: I could just take a Glenn Greenwald turn um do

1107
01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:32,960
Speaker 1: pretty well on that. You have to get canceled first,

1108
01:03:33,080 --> 01:03:38,360
Speaker 1: and then you have to make getting canceled your entire personality.

1109
01:03:38,800 --> 01:03:40,960
Speaker 1: There are people who have tried to cancel me because

1110
01:03:41,000 --> 01:03:44,440
Speaker 1: there's certain I'm a CIA asset um, which is why

1111
01:03:44,480 --> 01:03:47,720
Speaker 1: I'm doing this episode to provide good pr for my employers.

1112
01:03:51,800 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 1: Good stuff. So Foster's writing was influential and formed a

1113
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:58,280
Speaker 1: major part of the glow growing belief among US leaders

1114
01:03:58,280 --> 01:04:00,800
Speaker 1: that the Soviet Union was hell bent on world domination.

1115
01:04:01,200 --> 01:04:04,600
Speaker 1: Despite his antipathy to the Dulles brothers, Truman embraced this idea.

1116
01:04:04,800 --> 01:04:07,880
Speaker 1: In seven he spoke before a joint session of Congress

1117
01:04:07,880 --> 01:04:11,960
Speaker 1: and declared totalitarian regimes imposed on free people's by direct

1118
01:04:12,040 --> 01:04:15,520
Speaker 1: or indirect aggression undermine the foundations of international peace and

1119
01:04:15,560 --> 01:04:18,920
Speaker 1: hence the security of the United States. He asked Congress

1120
01:04:18,960 --> 01:04:21,680
Speaker 1: for four hundred million dollars in military aid to give

1121
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:26,000
Speaker 1: to nations with growing communist movements in order to suppress them. Obviously,

1122
01:04:26,320 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 1: this marked the start of the Truman doctrine and what

1123
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:32,120
Speaker 1: many historians will name as the opening salvo of the

1124
01:04:32,160 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 1: Cold War. Now, while Foster was beating the drums of

1125
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:37,640
Speaker 1: conflict with the U S. S R. Alan and his

1126
01:04:37,680 --> 01:04:41,360
Speaker 1: old OSS buddies were tramping around Washington talking to any

1127
01:04:41,400 --> 01:04:43,920
Speaker 1: elected leader who would listen about the pressing need for

1128
01:04:43,960 --> 01:04:48,280
Speaker 1: a peacetime intelligence agency. The United States had never had

1129
01:04:48,320 --> 01:04:51,120
Speaker 1: anything like that, but Dullis and his friends went further,

1130
01:04:51,320 --> 01:04:54,840
Speaker 1: insisting that this new agency should have secret powers greater

1131
01:04:54,920 --> 01:04:58,160
Speaker 1: than even the OSS had enjoyed. This new agency would

1132
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:01,400
Speaker 1: be different from anything that had insisted before then. Now,

1133
01:05:01,440 --> 01:05:04,640
Speaker 1: at the time, the standard among national intelligence agencies was

1134
01:05:04,680 --> 01:05:09,000
Speaker 1: that you kept intelligence gathering separate from analysis and action.

1135
01:05:09,120 --> 01:05:12,120
Speaker 1: So one group of people gets the information, another group

1136
01:05:12,120 --> 01:05:14,400
Speaker 1: of people decides what to do about it and actually

1137
01:05:14,440 --> 01:05:17,080
Speaker 1: acts based on it. Right, a kind of a separation

1138
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:20,240
Speaker 1: of powers, so you don't have an all powerful organization

1139
01:05:20,760 --> 01:05:24,800
Speaker 1: gathering information and overthrowing governments of its own accord um,

1140
01:05:24,840 --> 01:05:29,160
Speaker 1: you know. Not a bad idea, Uh again, Yeah, it

1141
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:32,760
Speaker 1: was one of the reasons people didn't want these things

1142
01:05:32,760 --> 01:05:34,040
Speaker 1: to be tied, as they thought it would lead to

1143
01:05:34,040 --> 01:05:37,960
Speaker 1: a situation where operatives gathering information would bias the information

1144
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:41,400
Speaker 1: they gathered towards whatever actions they already wanted to take.

1145
01:05:42,120 --> 01:05:45,320
Speaker 1: During World War Two, the OSS had ignored this traditional

1146
01:05:45,360 --> 01:05:47,960
Speaker 1: dividing line and justified it because they were you know,

1147
01:05:47,960 --> 01:05:50,040
Speaker 1: it was World War Two. The situation was extreme. We

1148
01:05:50,080 --> 01:05:53,200
Speaker 1: gotta do what we gotta do. Dullis and their fellows, though,

1149
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:56,960
Speaker 1: wanted this new agency Truman was establishing to retain this

1150
01:05:57,080 --> 01:06:01,920
Speaker 1: power in peace time. Now, after disbanding the OSS, President

1151
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:05,560
Speaker 1: Truman had formed an organization called the Central Intelligence Group

1152
01:06:05,720 --> 01:06:08,680
Speaker 1: to advise him to advise him on intelligence matters. It

1153
01:06:08,760 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 1: had no authority to carry out operations. It was just

1154
01:06:11,480 --> 01:06:16,560
Speaker 1: about keeping the president informed. Alan Basically, Alan Dolis decides, Okay,

1155
01:06:16,600 --> 01:06:19,000
Speaker 1: we've got this thing, the c i G. Maybe the

1156
01:06:19,000 --> 01:06:21,600
Speaker 1: way to get what I want to establish a new

1157
01:06:21,640 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 1: OSS is to expand what the c i G can do.

1158
01:06:24,920 --> 01:06:27,360
Speaker 1: Because Truman's already willing to make the c i G

1159
01:06:27,520 --> 01:06:29,680
Speaker 1: B a thing, I could just gradually push it to

1160
01:06:29,720 --> 01:06:33,240
Speaker 1: have more and more power. In nineteen forty six, Republicans

1161
01:06:33,280 --> 01:06:36,840
Speaker 1: won big and congressional elections. This gave the old OSS

1162
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:40,360
Speaker 1: men like Alan the leverage they needed. In nine seven,

1163
01:06:40,360 --> 01:06:43,160
Speaker 1: they succeeded in pushing a bill through Congress that established

1164
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:46,360
Speaker 1: a National Security Council to advise the president on foreign

1165
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:50,920
Speaker 1: policy and a Central Intelligence Agency to gather intel and

1166
01:06:51,080 --> 01:06:53,080
Speaker 1: act on it. That's what the c i G became.

1167
01:06:53,520 --> 01:06:56,480
Speaker 1: According to one write up of the deliberations behind this bill,

1168
01:06:56,560 --> 01:07:00,760
Speaker 1: collected by Stephen Kinzer, quote, there were strong objections to

1169
01:07:00,800 --> 01:07:03,400
Speaker 1: having a single agency with the authority to both collect

1170
01:07:03,440 --> 01:07:06,800
Speaker 1: secret intelligence and to process and evaluate it for the president.

1171
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:10,400
Speaker 1: The objections were overruled, and the CIA became a unique

1172
01:07:10,480 --> 01:07:14,760
Speaker 1: organization among Western intelligence services, which uniformly keep their secret

1173
01:07:14,800 --> 01:07:19,720
Speaker 1: operations separate from their overall intelligence activities. Now, the National

1174
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:23,000
Speaker 1: Security Act also contained a key clause which was worded

1175
01:07:23,080 --> 01:07:25,840
Speaker 1: vaguely enough to give the new agency a frightening amount

1176
01:07:25,840 --> 01:07:29,880
Speaker 1: of leeway. The CIA was authorized to carry out not

1177
01:07:30,000 --> 01:07:34,040
Speaker 1: only duties explicitly spelled out by the law, but also

1178
01:07:34,200 --> 01:07:38,360
Speaker 1: quote such other functions and duties related to intelligence affecting

1179
01:07:38,360 --> 01:07:41,840
Speaker 1: the national security as the National Security Council made from

1180
01:07:41,840 --> 01:07:45,800
Speaker 1: time to time direct This technically meant that the agency

1181
01:07:45,880 --> 01:07:50,520
Speaker 1: could take any action anywhere on Earth with the President's approval.

1182
01:07:51,240 --> 01:07:58,480
Speaker 1: And they did, and they share did Uh. And we're

1183
01:07:58,480 --> 01:08:02,200
Speaker 1: gonna talk about that Jason in part three, But for now,

1184
01:08:02,320 --> 01:08:07,120
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about you. Yes, my most recent

1185
01:08:07,160 --> 01:08:11,040
Speaker 1: book is called Zoe Punches the Future and the Dick. Uh.

1186
01:08:11,160 --> 01:08:15,040
Speaker 1: If you're dissuaded by that title or by my personality,

1187
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:18,679
Speaker 1: read the read or reviews. Okay, all very good, They're

1188
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 1: all good, or just pretend it's called Weathering Heights. Yeah,

1189
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:27,719
Speaker 1: that's actually my fifth novel. I've got a bunch out there. Uh.

1190
01:08:27,920 --> 01:08:30,720
Speaker 1: The online booksellers make it very easy to find them

1191
01:08:30,720 --> 01:08:35,120
Speaker 1: because they'll all be gathered together. Otherwise, I'm on all

1192
01:08:35,160 --> 01:08:38,160
Speaker 1: of the social media platforms Just google my name. It's

1193
01:08:38,560 --> 01:08:43,559
Speaker 1: they'll come up. Yeah, google Jason's name, find him, find

1194
01:08:43,600 --> 01:08:47,519
Speaker 1: his books, find him. You know, be your own. See

1195
01:08:47,520 --> 01:08:50,200
Speaker 1: I be the CIA you want to see in the world.

1196
01:09:00,680 --> 01:09:00,920
Speaker 1: Eight