WEBVTT - Is the Future of Fresh Water Under the Sea? 0:00:15.356 --> 0:00:22.956 Pushkin. I grew up in southern California, where there is 0:00:22.996 --> 0:00:27.036 this really striking You could call it a juxtaposition, you 0:00:27.076 --> 0:00:31.236 could call it irony. It's this. You're sitting there right 0:00:31.276 --> 0:00:35.756 next to this vast ocean, and yet fresh water drinking 0:00:35.836 --> 0:00:39.716 water is extremely scarce, has to be piped in from 0:00:39.876 --> 0:00:44.396 hundreds of miles away, sometimes still runs short. So you know, 0:00:44.516 --> 0:00:48.236 as you're staring out from the semi desert, how to 0:00:48.236 --> 0:00:51.796 cross the ocean. This thought inevitably comes to your mind. 0:00:52.476 --> 0:00:54.996 If only we could take the salt out of just 0:00:55.036 --> 0:00:58.996 a teeny fraction of that ocean water, our fresh water 0:00:59.076 --> 0:01:02.676 problems would be solved. And in fact, we can do 0:01:02.796 --> 0:01:06.236 that a little bit. In San Diego County, for example, 0:01:06.596 --> 0:01:10.596 a desalination plant provides about ten percent of the county's 0:01:10.636 --> 0:01:15.596 fresh water. But desalination is limited because it has some 0:01:15.636 --> 0:01:20.156 pretty significant problems. First, when you suck in the seawater, 0:01:20.476 --> 0:01:23.716 you tend to kill some marine life. And then you 0:01:23.796 --> 0:01:27.076 have to push that seawater through a membrane to take 0:01:27.076 --> 0:01:30.316 the salt out, and that pushing requires quite a lot 0:01:30.356 --> 0:01:34.276 of energy, which is expensive. And then only about half 0:01:34.316 --> 0:01:37.876 of that seawater in fact turns into fresh water, and 0:01:37.916 --> 0:01:41.516 what's left is this really salty brine that goes back 0:01:41.556 --> 0:01:45.116 into the ocean and can mess up the local ecosystem. 0:01:45.276 --> 0:01:46.916 And on top of all of that, in a lot 0:01:46.916 --> 0:01:50.036 of places, people just don't want to put a big 0:01:50.116 --> 0:01:54.116 industrial desalination plant right next to the beach. And so 0:01:54.596 --> 0:01:58.356 for all of those reasons, people just don't do desalination 0:01:58.796 --> 0:02:03.596 that much. But there is this other idea. It's actually 0:02:03.676 --> 0:02:05.916 been kicking around for decades. What if you could do 0:02:05.996 --> 0:02:10.476 desalination at the bottom of the ocean, hundreds of meters down, 0:02:10.996 --> 0:02:13.556 where the pressure is so great that the weight of 0:02:13.596 --> 0:02:16.716 the ocean itself would push the sea water through that 0:02:16.876 --> 0:02:21.116 membrane to create freshwater. Such an efficient idea. I find 0:02:21.156 --> 0:02:24.476 it just delightful in its cleverness. It wouldn't solve all 0:02:24.516 --> 0:02:29.356 the problems associated with desalination, but it could significantly reduce them. 0:02:29.556 --> 0:02:32.036 If you could get it to work cheaply and at scale, 0:02:32.516 --> 0:02:36.436 maybe southern California and other dry coastal places around the 0:02:36.476 --> 0:02:39.436 world could start getting a lot more of their fresh 0:02:39.476 --> 0:02:49.156 water from the sea. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is 0:02:49.156 --> 0:02:51.116 What's Your Problem the show where I talk to people 0:02:51.156 --> 0:02:54.356 who are trying to make technological progress. My guest today 0:02:54.476 --> 0:02:57.476 is Michael Porter. He's the chief technology officer of a 0:02:57.516 --> 0:03:01.596 company called ocean Well. Michael's problem is this, how can 0:03:01.636 --> 0:03:04.716 you desalinate water at the bottom of the sea and 0:03:04.796 --> 0:03:07.596 do it cheaply enough to compete with other sources of 0:03:07.636 --> 0:03:11.596 fresh water. As I mentioned before, this idea has actually 0:03:11.676 --> 0:03:14.436 been around for a long time. But Michael told me 0:03:14.516 --> 0:03:16.356 that this is a good moment to be working in 0:03:16.396 --> 0:03:19.476 the field, in part because of breakthroughs made by the 0:03:19.516 --> 0:03:20.756 oil and gas industry. 0:03:21.556 --> 0:03:24.276 You know. Luckily for us, the timing is right because 0:03:24.316 --> 0:03:27.956 over the last couple decades there have been major improvements 0:03:28.076 --> 0:03:32.556 in remote operated vehicles and what I would call electrification 0:03:32.636 --> 0:03:35.956 of the seabed. So in you know, a few decades ago, 0:03:36.556 --> 0:03:39.756 the oil and gas industry, who drill for oil, you know, 0:03:39.796 --> 0:03:43.236 not only on land but also offshore, they have developed 0:03:43.276 --> 0:03:46.516 a lot of these high pressure deep sea technologies in 0:03:46.596 --> 0:03:49.236 order to drill deeper and deeper. And so there's a 0:03:49.276 --> 0:03:51.756 bunch of platforms out in the Gulf of Mexico, for instance, 0:03:51.836 --> 0:03:55.596 where they're constantly drilling, and so we're leveraging a lot 0:03:55.636 --> 0:03:58.756 of the knowledge that's been gained in those offshore industries 0:03:58.956 --> 0:04:02.196 and applying that to water essentially. 0:04:02.116 --> 0:04:04.596 So the guy who ends up being your co founder 0:04:05.716 --> 0:04:09.676 comes to you some years ago with this idea. At 0:04:09.716 --> 0:04:15.116 that time, like what was the state of undersea desalination 0:04:16.636 --> 0:04:17.396 at that time? 0:04:17.956 --> 0:04:22.436 There have been a couple of tries here and there 0:04:22.836 --> 0:04:27.876 that we were aware of, mostly small whether you call 0:04:27.916 --> 0:04:30.796 them startups or just you know, curious people that have 0:04:31.516 --> 0:04:35.196 the ability to try this technology out. You know, those 0:04:35.236 --> 0:04:39.156 things were out there, but there were really no companies 0:04:39.196 --> 0:04:43.716 other than us and another Norwegian company that were looking 0:04:43.716 --> 0:04:44.516 at this seriously. 0:04:45.156 --> 0:04:48.796 I read that you built a proto type in your kitchen. 0:04:49.196 --> 0:04:50.276 Is that true? And what was that? 0:04:50.436 --> 0:04:50.516 Like? 0:04:50.516 --> 0:04:50.956 It's true. 0:04:51.916 --> 0:04:55.196 We came to this impasse where we had to find 0:04:55.196 --> 0:04:57.876 a space to build and the question was do we 0:04:57.916 --> 0:05:00.556 do it ourselves or do we work with a contractor? 0:05:01.076 --> 0:05:03.996 And so we looked at some contractors and ultimately decided 0:05:04.316 --> 0:05:06.436 it's best to do it ourselves because we're going to 0:05:06.516 --> 0:05:08.636 move faster, it's likely going to be a lot cheaper, 0:05:08.676 --> 0:05:11.356 and we're going to learn a lot more. So we 0:05:11.356 --> 0:05:13.396 were looking for a place to do this work and 0:05:13.436 --> 0:05:16.636 I just happened to have a house that was partially 0:05:16.676 --> 0:05:19.596 under construction at the time, So I decided it would 0:05:19.636 --> 0:05:22.836 be okay to move all of this equipment into our 0:05:22.916 --> 0:05:25.716 kitchen and build it in pieces there. So for a 0:05:25.756 --> 0:05:29.996 couple months, two members of my team and I essentially 0:05:30.036 --> 0:05:33.676 lived out of this you know, under construction house and 0:05:33.796 --> 0:05:36.476 built this prototype for several months. 0:05:36.876 --> 0:05:39.236 What does it look like? So, like, what am I picture? 0:05:39.276 --> 0:05:41.836 I'm picturing like a kitchen or it's just like a 0:05:41.916 --> 0:05:44.716 room that's like framed in with drywall, but it's not 0:05:44.756 --> 0:05:46.636 a kitchen yet, Like what's going on in the room. 0:05:46.916 --> 0:05:50.356 So we essentially had a working kitchen. But yes, all 0:05:50.356 --> 0:05:53.956 the drywall was removed, okay, and you know it was 0:05:54.116 --> 0:05:56.396 functional but not aesthetic. 0:05:56.276 --> 0:05:58.516 Okay, So you could cook, Yes. 0:05:58.276 --> 0:05:59.916 We could cook, and we could live there. 0:05:59.836 --> 0:06:02.556 And like in the middle of the room or something like, 0:06:02.596 --> 0:06:04.276 where's the prototype and what's it look like? 0:06:04.436 --> 0:06:08.956 Yeah? Yeah, So the kitchen's got a not an island 0:06:09.236 --> 0:06:11.516 peninsula that sticks out, okay, And on one side of 0:06:11.516 --> 0:06:13.716 the peninsula there was enough space to put half of 0:06:13.756 --> 0:06:15.916 the machine, which is about a four foot diameter by 0:06:15.956 --> 0:06:18.236 six foot tall, and then on the other side was 0:06:18.276 --> 0:06:21.356 another four foot by six foot cylinder, and those two 0:06:21.356 --> 0:06:23.956 cylinders essentially needed to be stacked on top of each 0:06:23.956 --> 0:06:27.956 other and married up before they're put into the reservoir 0:06:27.956 --> 0:06:30.756 where we're testing it. Okay, So we built it in 0:06:30.796 --> 0:06:34.196 pieces and then we had to disassemble the thing completely 0:06:34.236 --> 0:06:36.436 to fit it through the door because four feet was 0:06:36.436 --> 0:06:37.516 too wide to fit through. 0:06:37.396 --> 0:06:40.156 The foot door. Did you know that was coming? Yeah, 0:06:40.156 --> 0:06:42.996 we did. We play at fourth seed. Okay, it's funnier 0:06:43.036 --> 0:06:45.076 if you don't, right and you're like taking the door 0:06:45.076 --> 0:06:48.116 off the hinges. No, right, Like, okay, so you build 0:06:48.116 --> 0:06:50.236 this thing in your house, you take it out of 0:06:50.236 --> 0:06:52.076 your house, you put it back together, and where do 0:06:52.116 --> 0:06:52.596 you take it? 0:06:53.316 --> 0:06:55.916 So we take it up to North La County through 0:06:55.916 --> 0:07:00.076 a water district called Los Virginis Communicipal Water District. They 0:07:00.356 --> 0:07:03.476 partnered with us to help us on this pilot prototyping 0:07:03.516 --> 0:07:07.556 path and they have a reservoir there, a fresh water 0:07:07.636 --> 0:07:12.996 drinking reservoir where we ran this test. And probably the 0:07:13.036 --> 0:07:16.076 first question you're gonna ask, as well as freshwater not seawater. 0:07:15.796 --> 0:07:18.836 Crossed my mind. Yeah, and how can you test it 0:07:18.876 --> 0:07:21.156 if it's fresh water? I'll take the bait. Yeah. 0:07:21.196 --> 0:07:25.556 So submerged reverse osmosis by itself is just a system 0:07:25.596 --> 0:07:30.236 to you know, remove all the non water molecules, and 0:07:30.316 --> 0:07:33.876 so at freshwater lake, while it is fresh and doesn't 0:07:33.876 --> 0:07:36.276 have a lot of salt, it does have some total 0:07:36.276 --> 0:07:37.716 dissolve solids or salts. 0:07:38.116 --> 0:07:42.316 But it's basically the theory if you can do reverse 0:07:42.356 --> 0:07:46.156 osmosis in fifty feet of fresh water, then it'll probably 0:07:46.236 --> 0:07:48.556 work in fifteen hundred feet of seawater. Yeah. 0:07:48.636 --> 0:07:50.996 The difference is you need more pressure in the ocean 0:07:51.036 --> 0:07:52.556 because there's more salt in the ocean. 0:07:53.036 --> 0:07:55.476 So you put the thing in fifty feet of water, 0:07:55.676 --> 0:07:58.036 and are you piping the water back out? Yes? 0:07:58.276 --> 0:08:01.196 Yeah, we drop it down there, we turn on our pumps, 0:08:01.756 --> 0:08:06.116 and the pumps essentially circulate the lake water through our system. 0:08:06.876 --> 0:08:11.156 And as the lakewater passes through our system, we have 0:08:11.196 --> 0:08:13.756 another pump that sits behind our membranes and it creates 0:08:13.796 --> 0:08:16.916 that low pressure on the fresh water or the permeate 0:08:16.996 --> 0:08:20.196 side of the membrane, and that creates that pressure differential 0:08:20.276 --> 0:08:22.716 for the water to come through the membrane, and then 0:08:22.756 --> 0:08:24.956 on the outlet, it creates a pressure high enough that 0:08:24.996 --> 0:08:28.156 it can boost that water up to the surface where 0:08:28.196 --> 0:08:30.116 we then have a little spicket that it comes out 0:08:30.156 --> 0:08:32.676 of at the top and then just discharges back into 0:08:32.716 --> 0:08:33.836 the lake and. 0:08:33.756 --> 0:08:35.356 Did it work. It worked. 0:08:35.676 --> 0:08:39.196 Actually, just last week we passed a pretty big milestone 0:08:39.396 --> 0:08:42.196 of making one hundred and fifty thousand gallons of produced water, 0:08:42.516 --> 0:08:44.956 which is equivalent to about three months more than three 0:08:44.956 --> 0:08:47.076 months of runtime at more than one gallon a minute, 0:08:47.156 --> 0:08:49.876 which is what our system was sized to do. And 0:08:50.156 --> 0:08:53.596 that is the theory that we predicted, and we successfully 0:08:53.636 --> 0:08:56.516 passed it, and so it meets the models that we thought. 0:08:56.596 --> 0:09:00.556 And that's the machine you built in your kitchen. Yes, yes, 0:09:00.756 --> 0:09:04.916 that's great. So okay, the technology seems promising at least, 0:09:05.316 --> 0:09:08.196 but for this to work, it has to be super cheap, right, 0:09:08.236 --> 0:09:11.996 because the product you're selling is just water. So tell 0:09:12.036 --> 0:09:14.076 me about the economics of the business. 0:09:14.196 --> 0:09:16.796 You know, I like to think about it in three 0:09:16.796 --> 0:09:17.756 sets of costs. 0:09:18.076 --> 0:09:21.196 So you have your cap X costs building the play into. 0:09:21.076 --> 0:09:24.156 For equipment, you know, building the actual physical equipment, and 0:09:24.236 --> 0:09:27.156 you have your operational costs, and I like to separate 0:09:27.156 --> 0:09:30.636 that from the energy costs. The energy we know is less, 0:09:30.756 --> 0:09:33.196 so we have about a forty percent energy savings there. 0:09:33.916 --> 0:09:37.356 The capital costs are actually likely to be less or 0:09:37.356 --> 0:09:39.796 at least on par with what you see on shore, 0:09:40.236 --> 0:09:43.076 and that's because we don't have to create an artificial 0:09:43.076 --> 0:09:46.236 pressure environment. And so what that does removes a bunch 0:09:46.236 --> 0:09:48.916 of big pumps and big heavy piping that they would 0:09:48.916 --> 0:09:51.796 typically use on shore to create that artificial pressure environment. 0:09:51.996 --> 0:09:54.876 That's the good news. There's a bad news part. 0:09:55.076 --> 0:09:57.796 The bad news part, yes, the bad news part is 0:09:57.996 --> 0:10:01.156 you can imagine it's pretty easy to just walk up 0:10:01.196 --> 0:10:03.156 to a plant on shore and put your hands on 0:10:03.196 --> 0:10:05.916 a vessel that is leaking and fixing it, right, that's 0:10:05.996 --> 0:10:08.196 very hard to do when you're fifteen hundred feet deep 0:10:08.236 --> 0:10:10.276 in the ocean. You have to take a vessel out, 0:10:10.436 --> 0:10:13.196 which are often expensive, and then you have to either 0:10:13.316 --> 0:10:15.756 lift the system up or bring an rov down because 0:10:15.756 --> 0:10:17.636 it's too deep for humans to go, so you can't 0:10:17.676 --> 0:10:21.716 send divers down, and you then have to either maintain 0:10:22.076 --> 0:10:26.076 in place or pull the system up, and that is expensive. 0:10:26.516 --> 0:10:29.676 It's not unfounded. This happens all the time in the 0:10:29.676 --> 0:10:32.676 oil and gas industry, but it is expensive. And so 0:10:32.756 --> 0:10:35.636 that's the trade off that we get there. 0:10:35.836 --> 0:10:37.716 So as long as you build a machine that never 0:10:37.796 --> 0:10:38.636 breaks your goal. 0:10:38.596 --> 0:10:42.196 Done exactly, and so we've essentially developed what I call 0:10:42.236 --> 0:10:45.916 a pilot program where this reservoir test that we're running 0:10:46.036 --> 0:10:49.556 is one piece to that overall puzzle where we're testing 0:10:49.716 --> 0:10:53.636 lots of different systems in different environments, including the ocean 0:10:53.716 --> 0:10:57.916 in the deep and shallow ocean waters, and using all 0:10:57.996 --> 0:11:01.636 of that data, we can then develop models of our 0:11:01.636 --> 0:11:05.076 own to predict what that membrane life will ultimately be 0:11:05.316 --> 0:11:08.316 in the deep ocean. And I'm really focused on membrane 0:11:08.356 --> 0:11:12.116 life and and filter life because those are the things 0:11:12.196 --> 0:11:16.436 that will foul up and essentially stop production other things 0:11:16.476 --> 0:11:19.116 like pumps and structures and all the you know, the 0:11:19.116 --> 0:11:21.556 parts that's used to build the frame and all the 0:11:21.596 --> 0:11:25.676 piping that's well established material selection problems. 0:11:26.196 --> 0:11:28.836 I mean, that's the stuff that oil and gas companies use. 0:11:28.916 --> 0:11:31.836 It's the membrane and the filter is what is what 0:11:31.876 --> 0:11:34.756 you're doing differently and therefore is not right tested in 0:11:34.796 --> 0:11:36.036 a kind of industrial setting. 0:11:36.396 --> 0:11:39.836 And we are using commercially available membranes and filters, but 0:11:39.916 --> 0:11:42.956 we're doing them in a different environment that's relatively unknown, 0:11:43.556 --> 0:11:47.876 the deep ocean beyond two hundred meters, which is known 0:11:47.876 --> 0:11:51.036 as the aphotic zone. That means you have about less 0:11:51.036 --> 0:11:55.036 than one percent of light that shines through. It's relatively 0:11:55.116 --> 0:11:58.196 unknown and unexplored, and just like on land, you know, 0:11:58.356 --> 0:12:02.436 you'll have regional variability, global variability in the ocean, and 0:12:02.516 --> 0:12:04.476 so we really need to know, you know, in the 0:12:04.516 --> 0:12:07.236 site that we want to install the system, what does 0:12:07.276 --> 0:12:09.476 that site look like, what does the seawater like, they're 0:12:09.516 --> 0:12:12.636 the bioactivity, where the currents like. And then we have 0:12:12.676 --> 0:12:16.596 to design around that site for understanding how long the 0:12:16.596 --> 0:12:19.516 system will actually work. Each site will be a little 0:12:19.516 --> 0:12:22.956 bit different, and so the focus for us is twofold. 0:12:23.156 --> 0:12:26.076 It is making the system last as long as possible 0:12:26.716 --> 0:12:29.836 and making the cost of intervening on that system or 0:12:29.836 --> 0:12:32.156 maintaining that system as low as possible. 0:12:32.636 --> 0:12:35.556 So assuming you're able to do that, then the marginal 0:12:35.636 --> 0:12:39.356 gallon of water you produce is going to be cheaper 0:12:39.396 --> 0:12:41.956 than when produced on land, right because your energy costs 0:12:41.956 --> 0:12:45.236 are lower. That's what's driving the marginal cost. And as 0:12:45.236 --> 0:12:48.076 I understand it, that actually is part of the way 0:12:48.116 --> 0:12:51.356 you're hoping to solve the brine problem, the problem of 0:12:52.076 --> 0:12:55.916 desalination plants putting out salty brine, because the economics will 0:12:55.956 --> 0:12:59.716 mean that you don't have to separate as much fresh 0:12:59.716 --> 0:13:02.676 water per unit of sea water, which means you don't 0:13:02.716 --> 0:13:05.756 have to create such nasty brine. And that's how you're 0:13:05.796 --> 0:13:08.996 solving the brine problem. Sort it seems like that's potentially 0:13:09.596 --> 0:13:11.396 or you tell me how do you deal with that? 0:13:11.676 --> 0:13:15.636 So there's two parts to this. Like you said, we 0:13:15.916 --> 0:13:18.636 don't squeeze as much water as possible through these membranes, 0:13:18.916 --> 0:13:21.916 and instead we're just lightly sipping the water off the membranes. 0:13:22.436 --> 0:13:25.036 As a result, our brine is only about five to 0:13:25.116 --> 0:13:28.916 eighteen percent saltier than the surrounding ocean, rather than the 0:13:28.956 --> 0:13:31.676 two times saltier from an onshore plant. So that's a 0:13:31.676 --> 0:13:35.636 good starting point. The other thing we're doing is brine, 0:13:35.676 --> 0:13:38.996 which has more salt in it than seawater, is heavier 0:13:38.996 --> 0:13:41.796 than seawater, and so it wants to sink to the bottom. 0:13:42.556 --> 0:13:45.396 And what would happen is if you were to discharge 0:13:45.396 --> 0:13:48.316 it near the seafloor, it would essentially pull up on 0:13:48.356 --> 0:13:51.436 the seafloor and create something called a brine pool, which 0:13:51.556 --> 0:13:55.676 is generally toxic to the native biological life in that area. Okay, 0:13:55.876 --> 0:13:58.596 So what we're doing instead is we have what we 0:13:58.636 --> 0:14:02.196 call a brine riser, and it discharges the brine above 0:14:02.196 --> 0:14:04.396 our system high enough that it doesn't settle on the 0:14:04.396 --> 0:14:07.476 seafloor and cause any problems to the benthic environment on 0:14:07.516 --> 0:14:11.116 the sea floor. So this brine riser allows us to 0:14:11.596 --> 0:14:17.036 essentially discharge our brine into the open water column into 0:14:17.156 --> 0:14:19.636 natural currents where it will be rapidly diffused. And we've 0:14:19.716 --> 0:14:24.916 run some initial modeling on this brine discharge and diffusion 0:14:25.636 --> 0:14:28.156 and our model suggests it will be much less than 0:14:28.236 --> 0:14:33.596 one percent above ambient salinity within the first meter of discharge. 0:14:33.796 --> 0:14:37.116 So that's the brine problem. What about the sucking in 0:14:37.156 --> 0:14:38.236 marine life problem. 0:14:38.436 --> 0:14:41.116 Yeah, the sucking in marine life problem is on the 0:14:41.156 --> 0:14:43.956 intake side. The first thing is we're in a different 0:14:44.076 --> 0:14:47.956 environment than the surface. So while there still are organisms 0:14:47.996 --> 0:14:53.996 down there, microorganisms, macroorganisms, there's still life down deep, it's 0:14:54.036 --> 0:14:56.156 not the same type of life. You don't have all 0:14:56.196 --> 0:14:58.276 the phytoplankton that live up there that need the light, 0:14:58.756 --> 0:15:03.316 and those are Earth's primary producers. They generate a lot 0:15:03.356 --> 0:15:06.756 of the oxygen that we breathe, and we generally do 0:15:06.836 --> 0:15:11.156 not see those down at that depth. The other organisms 0:15:11.196 --> 0:15:13.076 that are down there, the big ones are easy. You 0:15:13.236 --> 0:15:16.036 just essentially screen off your intake system so the big 0:15:16.076 --> 0:15:19.156 ones won't go through the screens, and then the little 0:15:19.196 --> 0:15:22.676 stuff that could fit through these screens. We have essentially 0:15:22.716 --> 0:15:27.676 developed this filtration system that allows us to catch those 0:15:27.836 --> 0:15:31.996 microorganisms and then backwash those organisms back out of the 0:15:32.036 --> 0:15:35.756 system unharmed. And we've got some initial data from our 0:15:35.796 --> 0:15:40.276 reservoir testing that says this is absolutely possible. We've actually 0:15:40.276 --> 0:15:43.596 seen little critters get sucked into our system and then 0:15:43.596 --> 0:15:45.636 we blow them out and they're still swimming around on 0:15:45.676 --> 0:15:49.036 the other side. So this life safe system is really 0:15:49.756 --> 0:15:53.316 one very unique thing about our system, as well as 0:15:53.356 --> 0:15:56.796 the brine riser that make it more environmentally friendly than 0:15:56.876 --> 0:15:59.556 just say, taking an onshore plant and putting it on 0:15:59.596 --> 0:16:00.556 the bottom of the sea floor. 0:16:03.276 --> 0:16:14.196 We'll be back in just a minute. So you did 0:16:14.196 --> 0:16:20.396 this pilot in a freshwater reservoir. It worked. What's next? 0:16:20.476 --> 0:16:23.476 You can put what are these in the ocean soon? Yes, 0:16:24.236 --> 0:16:24.836 we are. 0:16:25.276 --> 0:16:28.916 Currently near the final stages of building a system that's 0:16:28.956 --> 0:16:30.556 going to go off the back of the boat and 0:16:30.596 --> 0:16:35.036 be tested in the ocean, and we're gearing up to 0:16:35.076 --> 0:16:39.076 design the next stage or scale up from that, where 0:16:39.196 --> 0:16:41.636 we'll be building a bigger system that will also go 0:16:41.796 --> 0:16:44.356 into the ocean for a longer period of time, and 0:16:44.716 --> 0:16:47.396 we need to know how long this thing can last 0:16:47.836 --> 0:16:51.556 so that we can make, you know, relatively accurate projections 0:16:51.596 --> 0:16:55.036 of its economics overall, which is what our customers want 0:16:55.036 --> 0:16:55.516 to see. 0:16:55.836 --> 0:16:59.236 Talk to me about where you are with the technoeconomics, Like, sure, 0:16:59.516 --> 0:17:01.916 presumably there are places where they would take that trade 0:17:01.956 --> 0:17:05.596 off Huntington Beach, you know, wealthy communities where they would say, yeah, 0:17:05.636 --> 0:17:07.716 we'll pay a little more for fresh water if you 0:17:07.716 --> 0:17:09.596 can put it on the bottom of the ocean, even 0:17:09.636 --> 0:17:11.036 if they don't care about the environment, just so they 0:17:11.076 --> 0:17:12.596 don't have to see it right, And maybe they care 0:17:12.596 --> 0:17:15.716 about the environment too, Like where are you with the technoeconomics? 0:17:15.716 --> 0:17:18.276 So ultimately the cost is going to be tied to 0:17:18.676 --> 0:17:22.356 how long the membranes will last and how often we 0:17:22.436 --> 0:17:24.996 have to swap them out or do maintenance. 0:17:25.316 --> 0:17:27.436 That's the big unknown that that's the big unknown that 0:17:27.516 --> 0:17:29.236 you have to put the thing in the ocean to 0:17:29.356 --> 0:17:29.916 festra out. 0:17:30.076 --> 0:17:32.876 And so we have, you know, one piece to that 0:17:32.916 --> 0:17:36.676 puzzle figured out, and over the next couple months we'll 0:17:36.676 --> 0:17:39.356 be getting data on the rest of those pieces where 0:17:39.396 --> 0:17:42.756 we'll be able to make fairly accurate models of how 0:17:42.796 --> 0:17:45.716 long memoranes last subc for sure. 0:17:45.836 --> 0:17:48.956 Well, and then there's also all of the other parts 0:17:48.996 --> 0:17:52.276 of the system presumably, and I know, you know, in 0:17:52.356 --> 0:17:56.836 individual components they have been under the sea before, but presumably, 0:17:57.356 --> 0:18:00.276 I don't know. Things just break right as you said, 0:18:00.436 --> 0:18:02.036 like it's really hard to fix a thing at the 0:18:02.076 --> 0:18:04.556 bottom of the ocean. So there's the life of the membrane, 0:18:04.556 --> 0:18:08.836 which is, you know, straightforward. It seems rather straightforward to test, 0:18:09.396 --> 0:18:13.916 like when you worry or when you think about what 0:18:14.036 --> 0:18:16.316 might not work and might not work, I don't even 0:18:16.356 --> 0:18:19.076 mean fail, I just mean might make what you're doing 0:18:19.556 --> 0:18:23.116 economically not feasible, Like what do you think about what 0:18:23.276 --> 0:18:25.196 might not work? Besides the membrane? 0:18:25.516 --> 0:18:27.236 I mean, a lot of things can break down. But 0:18:27.996 --> 0:18:31.476 one of our more expensive components, for instance, is the umbilical, 0:18:31.636 --> 0:18:35.676 which runs the power from shore to our pumps, and 0:18:35.796 --> 0:18:37.196 it's one power line. 0:18:37.356 --> 0:18:39.996 How far is that, by the way, how far is that? 0:18:40.196 --> 0:18:43.436 It will very much depend on the location. For example, 0:18:43.836 --> 0:18:45.916 the Big Island of Hawaii, you only have to go 0:18:46.156 --> 0:18:49.836 just under a mile offshore. In California it's about five miles. 0:18:50.676 --> 0:18:53.356 Around the Mediterranean, you'll say anywhere from like three to 0:18:53.436 --> 0:18:58.356 seven miles, but generally speaking, I would say anything about 0:18:58.476 --> 0:19:01.556 less than ten to fifteen miles is where we are 0:19:01.596 --> 0:19:02.956 most economical. 0:19:02.556 --> 0:19:06.596 And you were saying, there's one essentially power cord, one 0:19:06.716 --> 0:19:10.956 wire that you need, and presumably that wire needs to 0:19:11.436 --> 0:19:12.916 not break exactly. 0:19:13.076 --> 0:19:16.796 That's the thing that for me gives me the most fear. 0:19:17.676 --> 0:19:19.716 You know, what they do in when they build these 0:19:19.756 --> 0:19:23.516 umbilicals is you know, if you need say three three 0:19:23.556 --> 0:19:26.556 lines of copper, they'll build in six so that if 0:19:26.596 --> 0:19:28.796 one fails, you can just move to the other. So 0:19:29.116 --> 0:19:31.916 you know, there is some redundancy in that system along 0:19:31.956 --> 0:19:36.116 with others like the pumps. You know, we're we're looking at, 0:19:36.436 --> 0:19:39.196 you know, what is that trade off between having redundant 0:19:39.276 --> 0:19:41.836 pumps versus the cost of having two versus one, or 0:19:41.836 --> 0:19:45.036 three versus one, And so these are the things that 0:19:45.116 --> 0:19:47.956 we need to consider when we're you know, scaling up 0:19:47.996 --> 0:19:50.196 and building a commercially viable system. 0:19:50.796 --> 0:19:54.676 It's an interesting optimization problem. It's like a techno economic 0:19:54.756 --> 0:19:58.876 optimization problem, right. It is more pumps are more expensive initially, 0:19:59.556 --> 0:20:01.156 but you really don't want to have to go to 0:20:01.196 --> 0:20:04.156 the bottom of the ocean to replace a pump exactly. 0:20:04.596 --> 0:20:11.196 And surprisingly, my background in biomechanical evolution actually lends itself 0:20:11.236 --> 0:20:14.436 well because I was studying the optimization of trade offs 0:20:15.076 --> 0:20:20.196 that nature uses to you know, optimize solutions in natural 0:20:20.236 --> 0:20:24.236 systems like Darwin's finches for instance. Or I actually used 0:20:24.236 --> 0:20:28.516 to look at seahorse tails and compare the mechanics of 0:20:28.556 --> 0:20:31.716 a tail and how it could be potentially used for 0:20:31.956 --> 0:20:34.236 you know, a robot arm. But then I looked at 0:20:34.236 --> 0:20:38.676 all these different mechanical features. You know, it's a multidimensional 0:20:38.756 --> 0:20:43.116 problem with many, many different variables, and looking at how 0:20:43.316 --> 0:20:46.996 nature optimizes these things. So in many ways, I'm applying 0:20:47.036 --> 0:20:50.996 those same methods of looking at these multidimensional trade off 0:20:50.996 --> 0:20:55.476 problems to help us optimize you know what, that right 0:20:55.636 --> 0:20:59.756 number of pumps is to make our system redundant and 0:20:59.836 --> 0:21:02.396 reliable but not too costly. 0:21:03.156 --> 0:21:06.676 Survival of the fittest is survival of the most optimal. 0:21:06.476 --> 0:21:11.476 Exactly, Yes, and we're trying to be that fit company. 0:21:13.676 --> 0:21:17.436 Yeah, I mean, evolutionary biologists talk about things being costly, 0:21:17.636 --> 0:21:21.156 right When fish that live in caves evolved to not 0:21:21.276 --> 0:21:24.036 have eyes anymore, it's like it's costly to have eyes 0:21:24.076 --> 0:21:26.076 that if you live in a dark cave, you're wasted 0:21:26.156 --> 0:21:32.276 your energy budget on eyes exactly. So when are you 0:21:32.276 --> 0:21:34.436 going to know if it works? 0:21:35.316 --> 0:21:37.556 Well, know when it works when it's down there working. 0:21:39.316 --> 0:21:41.116 If it works, when's that going to be. 0:21:41.996 --> 0:21:45.276 So we're targeting twenty twenty eight as our first you know, 0:21:45.276 --> 0:21:51.436 commercial demonstration, and along that path, we have a handful 0:21:51.716 --> 0:21:55.676 of varying scale prototypes and varying environments that we're going 0:21:55.716 --> 0:21:58.756 to be testing, and so we'll be building confidence along 0:21:58.756 --> 0:21:59.756 the entire path. 0:22:00.396 --> 0:22:05.356 If it works, what'll, you know, what all the Pacific 0:22:05.436 --> 0:22:07.796 coast of the Americas look like, or what'll the world 0:22:07.836 --> 0:22:11.676 look like in what number of years? Shall we say, 0:22:11.676 --> 0:22:12.796 ten years, fifteen years? 0:22:13.356 --> 0:22:16.876