1 00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,956 Speaker 1: Pushkin. I grew up in southern California, where there is 2 00:00:22,996 --> 00:00:27,036 Speaker 1: this really striking You could call it a juxtaposition, you 3 00:00:27,076 --> 00:00:31,236 Speaker 1: could call it irony. It's this. You're sitting there right 4 00:00:31,276 --> 00:00:35,756 Speaker 1: next to this vast ocean, and yet fresh water drinking 5 00:00:35,836 --> 00:00:39,716 Speaker 1: water is extremely scarce, has to be piped in from 6 00:00:39,876 --> 00:00:44,396 Speaker 1: hundreds of miles away, sometimes still runs short. So you know, 7 00:00:44,516 --> 00:00:48,236 Speaker 1: as you're staring out from the semi desert, how to 8 00:00:48,236 --> 00:00:51,796 Speaker 1: cross the ocean. This thought inevitably comes to your mind. 9 00:00:52,476 --> 00:00:54,996 Speaker 1: If only we could take the salt out of just 10 00:00:55,036 --> 00:00:58,996 Speaker 1: a teeny fraction of that ocean water, our fresh water 11 00:00:59,076 --> 00:01:02,676 Speaker 1: problems would be solved. And in fact, we can do 12 00:01:02,796 --> 00:01:06,236 Speaker 1: that a little bit. In San Diego County, for example, 13 00:01:06,596 --> 00:01:10,596 Speaker 1: a desalination plant provides about ten percent of the county's 14 00:01:10,636 --> 00:01:15,596 Speaker 1: fresh water. But desalination is limited because it has some 15 00:01:15,636 --> 00:01:20,156 Speaker 1: pretty significant problems. First, when you suck in the seawater, 16 00:01:20,476 --> 00:01:23,716 Speaker 1: you tend to kill some marine life. And then you 17 00:01:23,796 --> 00:01:27,076 Speaker 1: have to push that seawater through a membrane to take 18 00:01:27,076 --> 00:01:30,316 Speaker 1: the salt out, and that pushing requires quite a lot 19 00:01:30,356 --> 00:01:34,276 Speaker 1: of energy, which is expensive. And then only about half 20 00:01:34,316 --> 00:01:37,876 Speaker 1: of that seawater in fact turns into fresh water, and 21 00:01:37,916 --> 00:01:41,516 Speaker 1: what's left is this really salty brine that goes back 22 00:01:41,556 --> 00:01:45,116 Speaker 1: into the ocean and can mess up the local ecosystem. 23 00:01:45,276 --> 00:01:46,916 Speaker 1: And on top of all of that, in a lot 24 00:01:46,916 --> 00:01:50,036 Speaker 1: of places, people just don't want to put a big 25 00:01:50,116 --> 00:01:54,116 Speaker 1: industrial desalination plant right next to the beach. And so 26 00:01:54,596 --> 00:01:58,356 Speaker 1: for all of those reasons, people just don't do desalination 27 00:01:58,796 --> 00:02:03,596 Speaker 1: that much. But there is this other idea. It's actually 28 00:02:03,676 --> 00:02:05,916 Speaker 1: been kicking around for decades. What if you could do 29 00:02:05,996 --> 00:02:10,476 Speaker 1: desalination at the bottom of the ocean, hundreds of meters down, 30 00:02:10,996 --> 00:02:13,556 Speaker 1: where the pressure is so great that the weight of 31 00:02:13,596 --> 00:02:16,716 Speaker 1: the ocean itself would push the sea water through that 32 00:02:16,876 --> 00:02:21,116 Speaker 1: membrane to create freshwater. Such an efficient idea. I find 33 00:02:21,156 --> 00:02:24,476 Speaker 1: it just delightful in its cleverness. It wouldn't solve all 34 00:02:24,516 --> 00:02:29,356 Speaker 1: the problems associated with desalination, but it could significantly reduce them. 35 00:02:29,556 --> 00:02:32,036 Speaker 1: If you could get it to work cheaply and at scale, 36 00:02:32,516 --> 00:02:36,436 Speaker 1: maybe southern California and other dry coastal places around the 37 00:02:36,476 --> 00:02:39,436 Speaker 1: world could start getting a lot more of their fresh 38 00:02:39,476 --> 00:02:49,156 Speaker 1: water from the sea. I'm Jacob Goldstein, and this is 39 00:02:49,156 --> 00:02:51,116 Speaker 1: What's Your Problem the show where I talk to people 40 00:02:51,156 --> 00:02:54,356 Speaker 1: who are trying to make technological progress. My guest today 41 00:02:54,476 --> 00:02:57,476 Speaker 1: is Michael Porter. He's the chief technology officer of a 42 00:02:57,516 --> 00:03:01,596 Speaker 1: company called ocean Well. Michael's problem is this, how can 43 00:03:01,636 --> 00:03:04,716 Speaker 1: you desalinate water at the bottom of the sea and 44 00:03:04,796 --> 00:03:07,596 Speaker 1: do it cheaply enough to compete with other sources of 45 00:03:07,636 --> 00:03:11,596 Speaker 1: fresh water. As I mentioned before, this idea has actually 46 00:03:11,676 --> 00:03:14,436 Speaker 1: been around for a long time. But Michael told me 47 00:03:14,516 --> 00:03:16,356 Speaker 1: that this is a good moment to be working in 48 00:03:16,396 --> 00:03:19,476 Speaker 1: the field, in part because of breakthroughs made by the 49 00:03:19,516 --> 00:03:20,756 Speaker 1: oil and gas industry. 50 00:03:21,556 --> 00:03:24,276 Speaker 2: You know. Luckily for us, the timing is right because 51 00:03:24,316 --> 00:03:27,956 Speaker 2: over the last couple decades there have been major improvements 52 00:03:28,076 --> 00:03:32,556 Speaker 2: in remote operated vehicles and what I would call electrification 53 00:03:32,636 --> 00:03:35,956 Speaker 2: of the seabed. So in you know, a few decades ago, 54 00:03:36,556 --> 00:03:39,756 Speaker 2: the oil and gas industry, who drill for oil, you know, 55 00:03:39,796 --> 00:03:43,236 Speaker 2: not only on land but also offshore, they have developed 56 00:03:43,276 --> 00:03:46,516 Speaker 2: a lot of these high pressure deep sea technologies in 57 00:03:46,596 --> 00:03:49,236 Speaker 2: order to drill deeper and deeper. And so there's a 58 00:03:49,276 --> 00:03:51,756 Speaker 2: bunch of platforms out in the Gulf of Mexico, for instance, 59 00:03:51,836 --> 00:03:55,596 Speaker 2: where they're constantly drilling, and so we're leveraging a lot 60 00:03:55,636 --> 00:03:58,756 Speaker 2: of the knowledge that's been gained in those offshore industries 61 00:03:58,956 --> 00:04:02,196 Speaker 2: and applying that to water essentially. 62 00:04:02,116 --> 00:04:04,596 Speaker 1: So the guy who ends up being your co founder 63 00:04:05,716 --> 00:04:09,676 Speaker 1: comes to you some years ago with this idea. At 64 00:04:09,716 --> 00:04:15,116 Speaker 1: that time, like what was the state of undersea desalination 65 00:04:16,636 --> 00:04:17,396 Speaker 1: at that time? 66 00:04:17,956 --> 00:04:22,436 Speaker 2: There have been a couple of tries here and there 67 00:04:22,836 --> 00:04:27,876 Speaker 2: that we were aware of, mostly small whether you call 68 00:04:27,916 --> 00:04:30,796 Speaker 2: them startups or just you know, curious people that have 69 00:04:31,516 --> 00:04:35,196 Speaker 2: the ability to try this technology out. You know, those 70 00:04:35,236 --> 00:04:39,156 Speaker 2: things were out there, but there were really no companies 71 00:04:39,196 --> 00:04:43,716 Speaker 2: other than us and another Norwegian company that were looking 72 00:04:43,716 --> 00:04:44,516 Speaker 2: at this seriously. 73 00:04:45,156 --> 00:04:48,796 Speaker 1: I read that you built a proto type in your kitchen. 74 00:04:49,196 --> 00:04:50,276 Speaker 1: Is that true? And what was that? 75 00:04:50,436 --> 00:04:50,516 Speaker 2: Like? 76 00:04:50,516 --> 00:04:50,956 Speaker 1: It's true. 77 00:04:51,916 --> 00:04:55,196 Speaker 2: We came to this impasse where we had to find 78 00:04:55,196 --> 00:04:57,876 Speaker 2: a space to build and the question was do we 79 00:04:57,916 --> 00:05:00,556 Speaker 2: do it ourselves or do we work with a contractor? 80 00:05:01,076 --> 00:05:03,996 Speaker 2: And so we looked at some contractors and ultimately decided 81 00:05:04,316 --> 00:05:06,436 Speaker 2: it's best to do it ourselves because we're going to 82 00:05:06,516 --> 00:05:08,636 Speaker 2: move faster, it's likely going to be a lot cheaper, 83 00:05:08,676 --> 00:05:11,356 Speaker 2: and we're going to learn a lot more. So we 84 00:05:11,356 --> 00:05:13,396 Speaker 2: were looking for a place to do this work and 85 00:05:13,436 --> 00:05:16,636 Speaker 2: I just happened to have a house that was partially 86 00:05:16,676 --> 00:05:19,596 Speaker 2: under construction at the time, So I decided it would 87 00:05:19,636 --> 00:05:22,836 Speaker 2: be okay to move all of this equipment into our 88 00:05:22,916 --> 00:05:25,716 Speaker 2: kitchen and build it in pieces there. So for a 89 00:05:25,756 --> 00:05:29,996 Speaker 2: couple months, two members of my team and I essentially 90 00:05:30,036 --> 00:05:33,676 Speaker 2: lived out of this you know, under construction house and 91 00:05:33,796 --> 00:05:36,476 Speaker 2: built this prototype for several months. 92 00:05:36,876 --> 00:05:39,236 Speaker 1: What does it look like? So, like, what am I picture? 93 00:05:39,276 --> 00:05:41,836 Speaker 1: I'm picturing like a kitchen or it's just like a 94 00:05:41,916 --> 00:05:44,716 Speaker 1: room that's like framed in with drywall, but it's not 95 00:05:44,756 --> 00:05:46,636 Speaker 1: a kitchen yet, Like what's going on in the room. 96 00:05:46,916 --> 00:05:50,356 Speaker 2: So we essentially had a working kitchen. But yes, all 97 00:05:50,356 --> 00:05:53,956 Speaker 2: the drywall was removed, okay, and you know it was 98 00:05:54,116 --> 00:05:56,396 Speaker 2: functional but not aesthetic. 99 00:05:56,276 --> 00:05:58,516 Speaker 1: Okay, So you could cook, Yes. 100 00:05:58,276 --> 00:05:59,916 Speaker 2: We could cook, and we could live there. 101 00:05:59,836 --> 00:06:02,556 Speaker 1: And like in the middle of the room or something like, 102 00:06:02,596 --> 00:06:04,276 Speaker 1: where's the prototype and what's it look like? 103 00:06:04,436 --> 00:06:08,956 Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, So the kitchen's got a not an island 104 00:06:09,236 --> 00:06:11,516 Speaker 2: peninsula that sticks out, okay, And on one side of 105 00:06:11,516 --> 00:06:13,716 Speaker 2: the peninsula there was enough space to put half of 106 00:06:13,756 --> 00:06:15,916 Speaker 2: the machine, which is about a four foot diameter by 107 00:06:15,956 --> 00:06:18,236 Speaker 2: six foot tall, and then on the other side was 108 00:06:18,276 --> 00:06:21,356 Speaker 2: another four foot by six foot cylinder, and those two 109 00:06:21,356 --> 00:06:23,956 Speaker 2: cylinders essentially needed to be stacked on top of each 110 00:06:23,956 --> 00:06:27,956 Speaker 2: other and married up before they're put into the reservoir 111 00:06:27,956 --> 00:06:30,756 Speaker 2: where we're testing it. Okay, So we built it in 112 00:06:30,796 --> 00:06:34,196 Speaker 2: pieces and then we had to disassemble the thing completely 113 00:06:34,236 --> 00:06:36,436 Speaker 2: to fit it through the door because four feet was 114 00:06:36,436 --> 00:06:37,516 Speaker 2: too wide to fit through. 115 00:06:37,396 --> 00:06:40,156 Speaker 1: The foot door. Did you know that was coming? Yeah, 116 00:06:40,156 --> 00:06:42,996 Speaker 1: we did. We play at fourth seed. Okay, it's funnier 117 00:06:43,036 --> 00:06:45,076 Speaker 1: if you don't, right and you're like taking the door 118 00:06:45,076 --> 00:06:48,116 Speaker 1: off the hinges. No, right, Like, okay, so you build 119 00:06:48,116 --> 00:06:50,236 Speaker 1: this thing in your house, you take it out of 120 00:06:50,236 --> 00:06:52,076 Speaker 1: your house, you put it back together, and where do 121 00:06:52,116 --> 00:06:52,596 Speaker 1: you take it? 122 00:06:53,316 --> 00:06:55,916 Speaker 2: So we take it up to North La County through 123 00:06:55,916 --> 00:07:00,076 Speaker 2: a water district called Los Virginis Communicipal Water District. They 124 00:07:00,356 --> 00:07:03,476 Speaker 2: partnered with us to help us on this pilot prototyping 125 00:07:03,516 --> 00:07:07,556 Speaker 2: path and they have a reservoir there, a fresh water 126 00:07:07,636 --> 00:07:12,996 Speaker 2: drinking reservoir where we ran this test. And probably the 127 00:07:13,036 --> 00:07:16,076 Speaker 2: first question you're gonna ask, as well as freshwater not seawater. 128 00:07:15,796 --> 00:07:18,836 Speaker 1: Crossed my mind. Yeah, and how can you test it 129 00:07:18,876 --> 00:07:21,156 Speaker 1: if it's fresh water? I'll take the bait. Yeah. 130 00:07:21,196 --> 00:07:25,556 Speaker 2: So submerged reverse osmosis by itself is just a system 131 00:07:25,596 --> 00:07:30,236 Speaker 2: to you know, remove all the non water molecules, and 132 00:07:30,316 --> 00:07:33,876 Speaker 2: so at freshwater lake, while it is fresh and doesn't 133 00:07:33,876 --> 00:07:36,276 Speaker 2: have a lot of salt, it does have some total 134 00:07:36,276 --> 00:07:37,716 Speaker 2: dissolve solids or salts. 135 00:07:38,116 --> 00:07:42,316 Speaker 1: But it's basically the theory if you can do reverse 136 00:07:42,356 --> 00:07:46,156 Speaker 1: osmosis in fifty feet of fresh water, then it'll probably 137 00:07:46,236 --> 00:07:48,556 Speaker 1: work in fifteen hundred feet of seawater. Yeah. 138 00:07:48,636 --> 00:07:50,996 Speaker 2: The difference is you need more pressure in the ocean 139 00:07:51,036 --> 00:07:52,556 Speaker 2: because there's more salt in the ocean. 140 00:07:53,036 --> 00:07:55,476 Speaker 1: So you put the thing in fifty feet of water, 141 00:07:55,676 --> 00:07:58,036 Speaker 1: and are you piping the water back out? Yes? 142 00:07:58,276 --> 00:08:01,196 Speaker 2: Yeah, we drop it down there, we turn on our pumps, 143 00:08:01,756 --> 00:08:06,116 Speaker 2: and the pumps essentially circulate the lake water through our system. 144 00:08:06,876 --> 00:08:11,156 Speaker 2: And as the lakewater passes through our system, we have 145 00:08:11,196 --> 00:08:13,756 Speaker 2: another pump that sits behind our membranes and it creates 146 00:08:13,796 --> 00:08:16,916 Speaker 2: that low pressure on the fresh water or the permeate 147 00:08:16,996 --> 00:08:20,196 Speaker 2: side of the membrane, and that creates that pressure differential 148 00:08:20,276 --> 00:08:22,716 Speaker 2: for the water to come through the membrane, and then 149 00:08:22,756 --> 00:08:24,956 Speaker 2: on the outlet, it creates a pressure high enough that 150 00:08:24,996 --> 00:08:28,156 Speaker 2: it can boost that water up to the surface where 151 00:08:28,196 --> 00:08:30,116 Speaker 2: we then have a little spicket that it comes out 152 00:08:30,156 --> 00:08:32,676 Speaker 2: of at the top and then just discharges back into 153 00:08:32,716 --> 00:08:33,836 Speaker 2: the lake and. 154 00:08:33,756 --> 00:08:35,356 Speaker 1: Did it work. It worked. 155 00:08:35,676 --> 00:08:39,196 Speaker 2: Actually, just last week we passed a pretty big milestone 156 00:08:39,396 --> 00:08:42,196 Speaker 2: of making one hundred and fifty thousand gallons of produced water, 157 00:08:42,516 --> 00:08:44,956 Speaker 2: which is equivalent to about three months more than three 158 00:08:44,956 --> 00:08:47,076 Speaker 2: months of runtime at more than one gallon a minute, 159 00:08:47,156 --> 00:08:49,876 Speaker 2: which is what our system was sized to do. And 160 00:08:50,156 --> 00:08:53,596 Speaker 2: that is the theory that we predicted, and we successfully 161 00:08:53,636 --> 00:08:56,516 Speaker 2: passed it, and so it meets the models that we thought. 162 00:08:56,596 --> 00:09:00,556 Speaker 1: And that's the machine you built in your kitchen. Yes, yes, 163 00:09:00,756 --> 00:09:04,916 Speaker 1: that's great. So okay, the technology seems promising at least, 164 00:09:05,316 --> 00:09:08,196 Speaker 1: but for this to work, it has to be super cheap, right, 165 00:09:08,236 --> 00:09:11,996 Speaker 1: because the product you're selling is just water. So tell 166 00:09:12,036 --> 00:09:14,076 Speaker 1: me about the economics of the business. 167 00:09:14,196 --> 00:09:16,796 Speaker 2: You know, I like to think about it in three 168 00:09:16,796 --> 00:09:17,756 Speaker 2: sets of costs. 169 00:09:18,076 --> 00:09:21,196 Speaker 1: So you have your cap X costs building the play into. 170 00:09:21,076 --> 00:09:24,156 Speaker 2: For equipment, you know, building the actual physical equipment, and 171 00:09:24,236 --> 00:09:27,156 Speaker 2: you have your operational costs, and I like to separate 172 00:09:27,156 --> 00:09:30,636 Speaker 2: that from the energy costs. The energy we know is less, 173 00:09:30,756 --> 00:09:33,196 Speaker 2: so we have about a forty percent energy savings there. 174 00:09:33,916 --> 00:09:37,356 Speaker 2: The capital costs are actually likely to be less or 175 00:09:37,356 --> 00:09:39,796 Speaker 2: at least on par with what you see on shore, 176 00:09:40,236 --> 00:09:43,076 Speaker 2: and that's because we don't have to create an artificial 177 00:09:43,076 --> 00:09:46,236 Speaker 2: pressure environment. And so what that does removes a bunch 178 00:09:46,236 --> 00:09:48,916 Speaker 2: of big pumps and big heavy piping that they would 179 00:09:48,916 --> 00:09:51,796 Speaker 2: typically use on shore to create that artificial pressure environment. 180 00:09:51,996 --> 00:09:54,876 Speaker 1: That's the good news. There's a bad news part. 181 00:09:55,076 --> 00:09:57,796 Speaker 2: The bad news part, yes, the bad news part is 182 00:09:57,996 --> 00:10:01,156 Speaker 2: you can imagine it's pretty easy to just walk up 183 00:10:01,196 --> 00:10:03,156 Speaker 2: to a plant on shore and put your hands on 184 00:10:03,196 --> 00:10:05,916 Speaker 2: a vessel that is leaking and fixing it, right, that's 185 00:10:05,996 --> 00:10:08,196 Speaker 2: very hard to do when you're fifteen hundred feet deep 186 00:10:08,236 --> 00:10:10,276 Speaker 2: in the ocean. You have to take a vessel out, 187 00:10:10,436 --> 00:10:13,196 Speaker 2: which are often expensive, and then you have to either 188 00:10:13,316 --> 00:10:15,756 Speaker 2: lift the system up or bring an rov down because 189 00:10:15,756 --> 00:10:17,636 Speaker 2: it's too deep for humans to go, so you can't 190 00:10:17,676 --> 00:10:21,716 Speaker 2: send divers down, and you then have to either maintain 191 00:10:22,076 --> 00:10:26,076 Speaker 2: in place or pull the system up, and that is expensive. 192 00:10:26,516 --> 00:10:29,676 Speaker 2: It's not unfounded. This happens all the time in the 193 00:10:29,676 --> 00:10:32,676 Speaker 2: oil and gas industry, but it is expensive. And so 194 00:10:32,756 --> 00:10:35,636 Speaker 2: that's the trade off that we get there. 195 00:10:35,836 --> 00:10:37,716 Speaker 1: So as long as you build a machine that never 196 00:10:37,796 --> 00:10:38,636 Speaker 1: breaks your goal. 197 00:10:38,596 --> 00:10:42,196 Speaker 2: Done exactly, and so we've essentially developed what I call 198 00:10:42,236 --> 00:10:45,916 Speaker 2: a pilot program where this reservoir test that we're running 199 00:10:46,036 --> 00:10:49,556 Speaker 2: is one piece to that overall puzzle where we're testing 200 00:10:49,716 --> 00:10:53,636 Speaker 2: lots of different systems in different environments, including the ocean 201 00:10:53,716 --> 00:10:57,916 Speaker 2: in the deep and shallow ocean waters, and using all 202 00:10:57,996 --> 00:11:01,636 Speaker 2: of that data, we can then develop models of our 203 00:11:01,636 --> 00:11:05,076 Speaker 2: own to predict what that membrane life will ultimately be 204 00:11:05,316 --> 00:11:08,316 Speaker 2: in the deep ocean. And I'm really focused on membrane 205 00:11:08,356 --> 00:11:12,116 Speaker 2: life and and filter life because those are the things 206 00:11:12,196 --> 00:11:16,436 Speaker 2: that will foul up and essentially stop production other things 207 00:11:16,476 --> 00:11:19,116 Speaker 2: like pumps and structures and all the you know, the 208 00:11:19,116 --> 00:11:21,556 Speaker 2: parts that's used to build the frame and all the 209 00:11:21,596 --> 00:11:25,676 Speaker 2: piping that's well established material selection problems. 210 00:11:26,196 --> 00:11:28,836 Speaker 1: I mean, that's the stuff that oil and gas companies use. 211 00:11:28,916 --> 00:11:31,836 Speaker 1: It's the membrane and the filter is what is what 212 00:11:31,876 --> 00:11:34,756 Speaker 1: you're doing differently and therefore is not right tested in 213 00:11:34,796 --> 00:11:36,036 Speaker 1: a kind of industrial setting. 214 00:11:36,396 --> 00:11:39,836 Speaker 2: And we are using commercially available membranes and filters, but 215 00:11:39,916 --> 00:11:42,956 Speaker 2: we're doing them in a different environment that's relatively unknown, 216 00:11:43,556 --> 00:11:47,876 Speaker 2: the deep ocean beyond two hundred meters, which is known 217 00:11:47,876 --> 00:11:51,036 Speaker 2: as the aphotic zone. That means you have about less 218 00:11:51,036 --> 00:11:55,036 Speaker 2: than one percent of light that shines through. It's relatively 219 00:11:55,116 --> 00:11:58,196 Speaker 2: unknown and unexplored, and just like on land, you know, 220 00:11:58,356 --> 00:12:02,436 Speaker 2: you'll have regional variability, global variability in the ocean, and 221 00:12:02,516 --> 00:12:04,476 Speaker 2: so we really need to know, you know, in the 222 00:12:04,516 --> 00:12:07,236 Speaker 2: site that we want to install the system, what does 223 00:12:07,276 --> 00:12:09,476 Speaker 2: that site look like, what does the seawater like, they're 224 00:12:09,516 --> 00:12:12,636 Speaker 2: the bioactivity, where the currents like. And then we have 225 00:12:12,676 --> 00:12:16,596 Speaker 2: to design around that site for understanding how long the 226 00:12:16,596 --> 00:12:19,516 Speaker 2: system will actually work. Each site will be a little 227 00:12:19,516 --> 00:12:22,956 Speaker 2: bit different, and so the focus for us is twofold. 228 00:12:23,156 --> 00:12:26,076 Speaker 2: It is making the system last as long as possible 229 00:12:26,716 --> 00:12:29,836 Speaker 2: and making the cost of intervening on that system or 230 00:12:29,836 --> 00:12:32,156 Speaker 2: maintaining that system as low as possible. 231 00:12:32,636 --> 00:12:35,556 Speaker 1: So assuming you're able to do that, then the marginal 232 00:12:35,636 --> 00:12:39,356 Speaker 1: gallon of water you produce is going to be cheaper 233 00:12:39,396 --> 00:12:41,956 Speaker 1: than when produced on land, right because your energy costs 234 00:12:41,956 --> 00:12:45,236 Speaker 1: are lower. That's what's driving the marginal cost. And as 235 00:12:45,236 --> 00:12:48,076 Speaker 1: I understand it, that actually is part of the way 236 00:12:48,116 --> 00:12:51,356 Speaker 1: you're hoping to solve the brine problem, the problem of 237 00:12:52,076 --> 00:12:55,916 Speaker 1: desalination plants putting out salty brine, because the economics will 238 00:12:55,956 --> 00:12:59,716 Speaker 1: mean that you don't have to separate as much fresh 239 00:12:59,716 --> 00:13:02,676 Speaker 1: water per unit of sea water, which means you don't 240 00:13:02,716 --> 00:13:05,756 Speaker 1: have to create such nasty brine. And that's how you're 241 00:13:05,796 --> 00:13:08,996 Speaker 1: solving the brine problem. Sort it seems like that's potentially 242 00:13:09,596 --> 00:13:11,396 Speaker 1: or you tell me how do you deal with that? 243 00:13:11,676 --> 00:13:15,636 Speaker 2: So there's two parts to this. Like you said, we 244 00:13:15,916 --> 00:13:18,636 Speaker 2: don't squeeze as much water as possible through these membranes, 245 00:13:18,916 --> 00:13:21,916 Speaker 2: and instead we're just lightly sipping the water off the membranes. 246 00:13:22,436 --> 00:13:25,036 Speaker 2: As a result, our brine is only about five to 247 00:13:25,116 --> 00:13:28,916 Speaker 2: eighteen percent saltier than the surrounding ocean, rather than the 248 00:13:28,956 --> 00:13:31,676 Speaker 2: two times saltier from an onshore plant. So that's a 249 00:13:31,676 --> 00:13:35,636 Speaker 2: good starting point. The other thing we're doing is brine, 250 00:13:35,676 --> 00:13:38,996 Speaker 2: which has more salt in it than seawater, is heavier 251 00:13:38,996 --> 00:13:41,796 Speaker 2: than seawater, and so it wants to sink to the bottom. 252 00:13:42,556 --> 00:13:45,396 Speaker 2: And what would happen is if you were to discharge 253 00:13:45,396 --> 00:13:48,316 Speaker 2: it near the seafloor, it would essentially pull up on 254 00:13:48,356 --> 00:13:51,436 Speaker 2: the seafloor and create something called a brine pool, which 255 00:13:51,556 --> 00:13:55,676 Speaker 2: is generally toxic to the native biological life in that area. Okay, 256 00:13:55,876 --> 00:13:58,596 Speaker 2: So what we're doing instead is we have what we 257 00:13:58,636 --> 00:14:02,196 Speaker 2: call a brine riser, and it discharges the brine above 258 00:14:02,196 --> 00:14:04,396 Speaker 2: our system high enough that it doesn't settle on the 259 00:14:04,396 --> 00:14:07,476 Speaker 2: seafloor and cause any problems to the benthic environment on 260 00:14:07,516 --> 00:14:11,116 Speaker 2: the sea floor. So this brine riser allows us to 261 00:14:11,596 --> 00:14:17,036 Speaker 2: essentially discharge our brine into the open water column into 262 00:14:17,156 --> 00:14:19,636 Speaker 2: natural currents where it will be rapidly diffused. And we've 263 00:14:19,716 --> 00:14:24,916 Speaker 2: run some initial modeling on this brine discharge and diffusion 264 00:14:25,636 --> 00:14:28,156 Speaker 2: and our model suggests it will be much less than 265 00:14:28,236 --> 00:14:33,596 Speaker 2: one percent above ambient salinity within the first meter of discharge. 266 00:14:33,796 --> 00:14:37,116 Speaker 1: So that's the brine problem. What about the sucking in 267 00:14:37,156 --> 00:14:38,236 Speaker 1: marine life problem. 268 00:14:38,436 --> 00:14:41,116 Speaker 2: Yeah, the sucking in marine life problem is on the 269 00:14:41,156 --> 00:14:43,956 Speaker 2: intake side. The first thing is we're in a different 270 00:14:44,076 --> 00:14:47,956 Speaker 2: environment than the surface. So while there still are organisms 271 00:14:47,996 --> 00:14:53,996 Speaker 2: down there, microorganisms, macroorganisms, there's still life down deep, it's 272 00:14:54,036 --> 00:14:56,156 Speaker 2: not the same type of life. You don't have all 273 00:14:56,196 --> 00:14:58,276 Speaker 2: the phytoplankton that live up there that need the light, 274 00:14:58,756 --> 00:15:03,316 Speaker 2: and those are Earth's primary producers. They generate a lot 275 00:15:03,356 --> 00:15:06,756 Speaker 2: of the oxygen that we breathe, and we generally do 276 00:15:06,836 --> 00:15:11,156 Speaker 2: not see those down at that depth. The other organisms 277 00:15:11,196 --> 00:15:13,076 Speaker 2: that are down there, the big ones are easy. You 278 00:15:13,236 --> 00:15:16,036 Speaker 2: just essentially screen off your intake system so the big 279 00:15:16,076 --> 00:15:19,156 Speaker 2: ones won't go through the screens, and then the little 280 00:15:19,196 --> 00:15:22,676 Speaker 2: stuff that could fit through these screens. We have essentially 281 00:15:22,716 --> 00:15:27,676 Speaker 2: developed this filtration system that allows us to catch those 282 00:15:27,836 --> 00:15:31,996 Speaker 2: microorganisms and then backwash those organisms back out of the 283 00:15:32,036 --> 00:15:35,756 Speaker 2: system unharmed. And we've got some initial data from our 284 00:15:35,796 --> 00:15:40,276 Speaker 2: reservoir testing that says this is absolutely possible. We've actually 285 00:15:40,276 --> 00:15:43,596 Speaker 2: seen little critters get sucked into our system and then 286 00:15:43,596 --> 00:15:45,636 Speaker 2: we blow them out and they're still swimming around on 287 00:15:45,676 --> 00:15:49,036 Speaker 2: the other side. So this life safe system is really 288 00:15:49,756 --> 00:15:53,316 Speaker 2: one very unique thing about our system, as well as 289 00:15:53,356 --> 00:15:56,796 Speaker 2: the brine riser that make it more environmentally friendly than 290 00:15:56,876 --> 00:15:59,556 Speaker 2: just say, taking an onshore plant and putting it on 291 00:15:59,596 --> 00:16:00,556 Speaker 2: the bottom of the sea floor. 292 00:16:03,276 --> 00:16:14,196 Speaker 1: We'll be back in just a minute. So you did 293 00:16:14,196 --> 00:16:20,396 Speaker 1: this pilot in a freshwater reservoir. It worked. What's next? 294 00:16:20,476 --> 00:16:23,476 Speaker 1: You can put what are these in the ocean soon? Yes, 295 00:16:24,236 --> 00:16:24,836 Speaker 1: we are. 296 00:16:25,276 --> 00:16:28,916 Speaker 2: Currently near the final stages of building a system that's 297 00:16:28,956 --> 00:16:30,556 Speaker 2: going to go off the back of the boat and 298 00:16:30,596 --> 00:16:35,036 Speaker 2: be tested in the ocean, and we're gearing up to 299 00:16:35,076 --> 00:16:39,076 Speaker 2: design the next stage or scale up from that, where 300 00:16:39,196 --> 00:16:41,636 Speaker 2: we'll be building a bigger system that will also go 301 00:16:41,796 --> 00:16:44,356 Speaker 2: into the ocean for a longer period of time, and 302 00:16:44,716 --> 00:16:47,396 Speaker 2: we need to know how long this thing can last 303 00:16:47,836 --> 00:16:51,556 Speaker 2: so that we can make, you know, relatively accurate projections 304 00:16:51,596 --> 00:16:55,036 Speaker 2: of its economics overall, which is what our customers want 305 00:16:55,036 --> 00:16:55,516 Speaker 2: to see. 306 00:16:55,836 --> 00:16:59,236 Speaker 1: Talk to me about where you are with the technoeconomics, Like, sure, 307 00:16:59,516 --> 00:17:01,916 Speaker 1: presumably there are places where they would take that trade 308 00:17:01,956 --> 00:17:05,596 Speaker 1: off Huntington Beach, you know, wealthy communities where they would say, yeah, 309 00:17:05,636 --> 00:17:07,716 Speaker 1: we'll pay a little more for fresh water if you 310 00:17:07,716 --> 00:17:09,596 Speaker 1: can put it on the bottom of the ocean, even 311 00:17:09,636 --> 00:17:11,036 Speaker 1: if they don't care about the environment, just so they 312 00:17:11,076 --> 00:17:12,596 Speaker 1: don't have to see it right, And maybe they care 313 00:17:12,596 --> 00:17:15,716 Speaker 1: about the environment too, Like where are you with the technoeconomics? 314 00:17:15,716 --> 00:17:18,276 Speaker 2: So ultimately the cost is going to be tied to 315 00:17:18,676 --> 00:17:22,356 Speaker 2: how long the membranes will last and how often we 316 00:17:22,436 --> 00:17:24,996 Speaker 2: have to swap them out or do maintenance. 317 00:17:25,316 --> 00:17:27,436 Speaker 1: That's the big unknown that that's the big unknown that 318 00:17:27,516 --> 00:17:29,236 Speaker 1: you have to put the thing in the ocean to 319 00:17:29,356 --> 00:17:29,916 Speaker 1: festra out. 320 00:17:30,076 --> 00:17:32,876 Speaker 2: And so we have, you know, one piece to that 321 00:17:32,916 --> 00:17:36,676 Speaker 2: puzzle figured out, and over the next couple months we'll 322 00:17:36,676 --> 00:17:39,356 Speaker 2: be getting data on the rest of those pieces where 323 00:17:39,396 --> 00:17:42,756 Speaker 2: we'll be able to make fairly accurate models of how 324 00:17:42,796 --> 00:17:45,716 Speaker 2: long memoranes last subc for sure. 325 00:17:45,836 --> 00:17:48,956 Speaker 1: Well, and then there's also all of the other parts 326 00:17:48,996 --> 00:17:52,276 Speaker 1: of the system presumably, and I know, you know, in 327 00:17:52,356 --> 00:17:56,836 Speaker 1: individual components they have been under the sea before, but presumably, 328 00:17:57,356 --> 00:18:00,276 Speaker 1: I don't know. Things just break right as you said, 329 00:18:00,436 --> 00:18:02,036 Speaker 1: like it's really hard to fix a thing at the 330 00:18:02,076 --> 00:18:04,556 Speaker 1: bottom of the ocean. So there's the life of the membrane, 331 00:18:04,556 --> 00:18:08,836 Speaker 1: which is, you know, straightforward. It seems rather straightforward to test, 332 00:18:09,396 --> 00:18:13,916 Speaker 1: like when you worry or when you think about what 333 00:18:14,036 --> 00:18:16,316 Speaker 1: might not work and might not work, I don't even 334 00:18:16,356 --> 00:18:19,076 Speaker 1: mean fail, I just mean might make what you're doing 335 00:18:19,556 --> 00:18:23,116 Speaker 1: economically not feasible, Like what do you think about what 336 00:18:23,276 --> 00:18:25,196 Speaker 1: might not work? Besides the membrane? 337 00:18:25,516 --> 00:18:27,236 Speaker 2: I mean, a lot of things can break down. But 338 00:18:27,996 --> 00:18:31,476 Speaker 2: one of our more expensive components, for instance, is the umbilical, 339 00:18:31,636 --> 00:18:35,676 Speaker 2: which runs the power from shore to our pumps, and 340 00:18:35,796 --> 00:18:37,196 Speaker 2: it's one power line. 341 00:18:37,356 --> 00:18:39,996 Speaker 1: How far is that, by the way, how far is that? 342 00:18:40,196 --> 00:18:43,436 Speaker 2: It will very much depend on the location. For example, 343 00:18:43,836 --> 00:18:45,916 Speaker 2: the Big Island of Hawaii, you only have to go 344 00:18:46,156 --> 00:18:49,836 Speaker 2: just under a mile offshore. In California it's about five miles. 345 00:18:50,676 --> 00:18:53,356 Speaker 2: Around the Mediterranean, you'll say anywhere from like three to 346 00:18:53,436 --> 00:18:58,356 Speaker 2: seven miles, but generally speaking, I would say anything about 347 00:18:58,476 --> 00:19:01,556 Speaker 2: less than ten to fifteen miles is where we are 348 00:19:01,596 --> 00:19:02,956 Speaker 2: most economical. 349 00:19:02,556 --> 00:19:06,596 Speaker 1: And you were saying, there's one essentially power cord, one 350 00:19:06,716 --> 00:19:10,956 Speaker 1: wire that you need, and presumably that wire needs to 351 00:19:11,436 --> 00:19:12,916 Speaker 1: not break exactly. 352 00:19:13,076 --> 00:19:16,796 Speaker 2: That's the thing that for me gives me the most fear. 353 00:19:17,676 --> 00:19:19,716 Speaker 2: You know, what they do in when they build these 354 00:19:19,756 --> 00:19:23,516 Speaker 2: umbilicals is you know, if you need say three three 355 00:19:23,556 --> 00:19:26,556 Speaker 2: lines of copper, they'll build in six so that if 356 00:19:26,596 --> 00:19:28,796 Speaker 2: one fails, you can just move to the other. So 357 00:19:29,116 --> 00:19:31,916 Speaker 2: you know, there is some redundancy in that system along 358 00:19:31,956 --> 00:19:36,116 Speaker 2: with others like the pumps. You know, we're we're looking at, 359 00:19:36,436 --> 00:19:39,196 Speaker 2: you know, what is that trade off between having redundant 360 00:19:39,276 --> 00:19:41,836 Speaker 2: pumps versus the cost of having two versus one, or 361 00:19:41,836 --> 00:19:45,036 Speaker 2: three versus one, And so these are the things that 362 00:19:45,116 --> 00:19:47,956 Speaker 2: we need to consider when we're you know, scaling up 363 00:19:47,996 --> 00:19:50,196 Speaker 2: and building a commercially viable system. 364 00:19:50,796 --> 00:19:54,676 Speaker 1: It's an interesting optimization problem. It's like a techno economic 365 00:19:54,756 --> 00:19:58,876 Speaker 1: optimization problem, right. It is more pumps are more expensive initially, 366 00:19:59,556 --> 00:20:01,156 Speaker 1: but you really don't want to have to go to 367 00:20:01,196 --> 00:20:04,156 Speaker 1: the bottom of the ocean to replace a pump exactly. 368 00:20:04,596 --> 00:20:11,196 Speaker 2: And surprisingly, my background in biomechanical evolution actually lends itself 369 00:20:11,236 --> 00:20:14,436 Speaker 2: well because I was studying the optimization of trade offs 370 00:20:15,076 --> 00:20:20,196 Speaker 2: that nature uses to you know, optimize solutions in natural 371 00:20:20,236 --> 00:20:24,236 Speaker 2: systems like Darwin's finches for instance. Or I actually used 372 00:20:24,236 --> 00:20:28,516 Speaker 2: to look at seahorse tails and compare the mechanics of 373 00:20:28,556 --> 00:20:31,716 Speaker 2: a tail and how it could be potentially used for 374 00:20:31,956 --> 00:20:34,236 Speaker 2: you know, a robot arm. But then I looked at 375 00:20:34,236 --> 00:20:38,676 Speaker 2: all these different mechanical features. You know, it's a multidimensional 376 00:20:38,756 --> 00:20:43,116 Speaker 2: problem with many, many different variables, and looking at how 377 00:20:43,316 --> 00:20:46,996 Speaker 2: nature optimizes these things. So in many ways, I'm applying 378 00:20:47,036 --> 00:20:50,996 Speaker 2: those same methods of looking at these multidimensional trade off 379 00:20:50,996 --> 00:20:55,476 Speaker 2: problems to help us optimize you know what, that right 380 00:20:55,636 --> 00:20:59,756 Speaker 2: number of pumps is to make our system redundant and 381 00:20:59,836 --> 00:21:02,396 Speaker 2: reliable but not too costly. 382 00:21:03,156 --> 00:21:06,676 Speaker 1: Survival of the fittest is survival of the most optimal. 383 00:21:06,476 --> 00:21:11,476 Speaker 2: Exactly, Yes, and we're trying to be that fit company. 384 00:21:13,676 --> 00:21:17,436 Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, evolutionary biologists talk about things being costly, 385 00:21:17,636 --> 00:21:21,156 Speaker 1: right When fish that live in caves evolved to not 386 00:21:21,276 --> 00:21:24,036 Speaker 1: have eyes anymore, it's like it's costly to have eyes 387 00:21:24,076 --> 00:21:26,076 Speaker 1: that if you live in a dark cave, you're wasted 388 00:21:26,156 --> 00:21:32,276 Speaker 1: your energy budget on eyes exactly. So when are you 389 00:21:32,276 --> 00:21:34,436 Speaker 1: going to know if it works? 390 00:21:35,316 --> 00:21:37,556 Speaker 2: Well, know when it works when it's down there working. 391 00:21:39,316 --> 00:21:41,116 Speaker 1: If it works, when's that going to be. 392 00:21:41,996 --> 00:21:45,276 Speaker 2: So we're targeting twenty twenty eight as our first you know, 393 00:21:45,276 --> 00:21:51,436 Speaker 2: commercial demonstration, and along that path, we have a handful 394 00:21:51,716 --> 00:21:55,676 Speaker 2: of varying scale prototypes and varying environments that we're going 395 00:21:55,716 --> 00:21:58,756 Speaker 2: to be testing, and so we'll be building confidence along 396 00:21:58,756 --> 00:21:59,756 Speaker 2: the entire path. 397 00:22:00,396 --> 00:22:05,356 Speaker 1: If it works, what'll, you know, what all the Pacific 398 00:22:05,436 --> 00:22:07,796 Speaker 1: coast of the Americas look like, or what'll the world 399 00:22:07,836 --> 00:22:11,676 Speaker 1: look like in what number of years? Shall we say, 400 00:22:11,676 --> 00:22:12,796 Speaker 1: ten years, fifteen years? 401 00:22:13,356 --> 00:22:16,876 Speaker 2: Sure, so you know, ideally, in my head, you know, 402 00:22:16,956 --> 00:22:21,276 Speaker 2: my sort of more long term, grander vision of this is, 403 00:22:21,316 --> 00:22:24,796 Speaker 2: if you know, if the ocean well really does do 404 00:22:24,876 --> 00:22:27,916 Speaker 2: what it's designed to do and takes off around the world, 405 00:22:28,596 --> 00:22:32,996 Speaker 2: we will see more water staying where it belongs. For instance, 406 00:22:33,036 --> 00:22:37,516 Speaker 2: in California, in southern California, most of our water comes 407 00:22:37,516 --> 00:22:40,396 Speaker 2: from the Colorado River and from the north through what's 408 00:22:40,476 --> 00:22:44,516 Speaker 2: called the State Water Project. And those two sources of 409 00:22:44,556 --> 00:22:48,796 Speaker 2: water are not local. They both travel really far distances 410 00:22:48,836 --> 00:22:52,036 Speaker 2: to get to us, and it takes a lot of 411 00:22:52,076 --> 00:22:55,076 Speaker 2: water away from the natural ecosystems that exist there on 412 00:22:55,116 --> 00:22:58,036 Speaker 2: the Colorado River and in northern California, and it also 413 00:22:58,076 --> 00:23:00,756 Speaker 2: takes away from all the residents in places like Arizona 414 00:23:00,796 --> 00:23:04,676 Speaker 2: and Nevada and Colorado. And so I would like to 415 00:23:04,716 --> 00:23:08,356 Speaker 2: see that water stay where it belongs naturally, so that 416 00:23:08,476 --> 00:23:11,196 Speaker 2: all the eCos systems and the planetary systems that we 417 00:23:11,236 --> 00:23:13,676 Speaker 2: need to sort of keep our climate and our planet, 418 00:23:13,996 --> 00:23:19,796 Speaker 2: you know, thriving for generations, can continue to stay healthy essentially. 419 00:23:19,956 --> 00:23:23,676 Speaker 2: And so you know, my goals that we can make 420 00:23:23,716 --> 00:23:26,756 Speaker 2: some of these coastal cities that are currently not what 421 00:23:26,756 --> 00:23:30,876 Speaker 2: I would consider sustainable in terms of water more sustainable 422 00:23:31,116 --> 00:23:35,796 Speaker 2: and allow these other ecosystems to continue to thrive, you know, 423 00:23:35,876 --> 00:23:37,796 Speaker 2: maintaining their own local water resources. 424 00:23:41,116 --> 00:23:43,556 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a minute with the lightning round. 425 00:23:52,676 --> 00:23:55,756 Speaker 1: I want to do a lightning round. Now, Okay, where's 426 00:23:55,796 --> 00:23:57,076 Speaker 1: your favorite place to surf? 427 00:23:57,556 --> 00:24:00,636 Speaker 2: That's a good question. I mean I have many favorites 428 00:24:01,196 --> 00:24:05,036 Speaker 2: in different locations. I mean, I've been lucky that, you know, 429 00:24:05,036 --> 00:24:07,316 Speaker 2: I did my master's out in Hawaii, and so I've 430 00:24:07,356 --> 00:24:09,596 Speaker 2: got a handful of spots out there that I really liked. 431 00:24:10,356 --> 00:24:13,956 Speaker 2: I actually learned to surf in Costa Rica. That was 432 00:24:14,796 --> 00:24:19,236 Speaker 2: a very fun experience. And then I don't know, a 433 00:24:19,276 --> 00:24:21,876 Speaker 2: big rock out here in La Joya, where I currently 434 00:24:21,876 --> 00:24:23,356 Speaker 2: live is kind of my local favorite. 435 00:24:23,436 --> 00:24:26,036 Speaker 1: Right now, tell me about one wave. 436 00:24:26,396 --> 00:24:30,396 Speaker 2: One wave, I'll say the first time I got a barrel, 437 00:24:30,596 --> 00:24:33,796 Speaker 2: that's probably the one that stands out. So I grew 438 00:24:33,876 --> 00:24:37,596 Speaker 2: up in Virginia, and growing up in Virginia, the waves 439 00:24:37,636 --> 00:24:41,596 Speaker 2: aren't great, but we live driving distance from Cape Hatteras, 440 00:24:41,636 --> 00:24:44,156 Speaker 2: which are the outer banks of North Carolina, sticks out 441 00:24:44,276 --> 00:24:47,396 Speaker 2: further in the Atlantic than anywhere else. And when you 442 00:24:47,436 --> 00:24:50,436 Speaker 2: get these hurricanes that come through, the ones that don't 443 00:24:50,476 --> 00:24:52,636 Speaker 2: hit land but sit right off the coast just pump 444 00:24:52,756 --> 00:24:58,756 Speaker 2: beautiful waves into the shore. But yeah, my first barrel 445 00:24:59,156 --> 00:25:02,036 Speaker 2: was in Hatteras on one of those days, and you know, 446 00:25:02,076 --> 00:25:05,476 Speaker 2: it was well overhead and head high. That's how we 447 00:25:05,516 --> 00:25:08,196 Speaker 2: talk about the height, I guess, you know. And it 448 00:25:08,236 --> 00:25:09,836 Speaker 2: was one of those things where you see it coming 449 00:25:09,876 --> 00:25:13,076 Speaker 2: in front of you and usually I would have just 450 00:25:13,236 --> 00:25:15,956 Speaker 2: crashed and fallen, but I made it through and it 451 00:25:15,996 --> 00:25:18,236 Speaker 2: came over and I was fully standing up on the 452 00:25:18,236 --> 00:25:19,836 Speaker 2: other side and it was a beautiful moment. 453 00:25:21,836 --> 00:25:26,196 Speaker 1: You wrote a paper on the shape of the seahorse tail, 454 00:25:26,436 --> 00:25:29,556 Speaker 1: because the seahorse's tail is a square, and in the 455 00:25:29,596 --> 00:25:32,156 Speaker 1: paper you asked why is the tail of the seahorse 456 00:25:32,236 --> 00:25:34,396 Speaker 1: that shape? Why is it square? And like, first of all, 457 00:25:34,436 --> 00:25:36,276 Speaker 1: why is that a question? Like would you expect it 458 00:25:36,276 --> 00:25:38,756 Speaker 1: to be like a triangle like other fish, seahorses, a 459 00:25:38,796 --> 00:25:41,036 Speaker 1: fish or what. Yeah. 460 00:25:41,196 --> 00:25:42,956 Speaker 2: For my PhD, I worked in a lab where we 461 00:25:42,996 --> 00:25:47,316 Speaker 2: looked at all of these different natural organisms and we 462 00:25:47,356 --> 00:25:50,716 Speaker 2: looked at the structure and function from a mechanical perspective. 463 00:25:51,516 --> 00:25:53,556 Speaker 2: And so in that class, we had to give pitches 464 00:25:53,796 --> 00:25:57,076 Speaker 2: on what we were doing that we thought might turn 465 00:25:57,116 --> 00:25:59,596 Speaker 2: into a company. And so I took the seahorse tail 466 00:25:59,796 --> 00:26:03,156 Speaker 2: as my sort of product. And I was like, I'm 467 00:26:03,156 --> 00:26:05,396 Speaker 2: going to turn the sea horsetail into a robot arm 468 00:26:05,516 --> 00:26:08,636 Speaker 2: or a catheter or you know something that could you know, 469 00:26:08,676 --> 00:26:11,836 Speaker 2: help in the medical field. And I was giving this 470 00:26:11,916 --> 00:26:13,916 Speaker 2: pitch on oh, the seahorse tail would be great for 471 00:26:13,956 --> 00:26:15,396 Speaker 2: this and that and that and this, and someone in 472 00:26:15,436 --> 00:26:19,156 Speaker 2: the audience said it's square. You know your veins are round, 473 00:26:19,236 --> 00:26:22,076 Speaker 2: so wouldn't you want it to be round? And I said, oh, yeah, yeah, 474 00:26:22,116 --> 00:26:23,756 Speaker 2: you could make it round. Sure, we could just make 475 00:26:23,796 --> 00:26:25,796 Speaker 2: it round. And so I went back to the lab 476 00:26:25,836 --> 00:26:27,756 Speaker 2: and I was like, Okay, I'm going to print out 477 00:26:27,796 --> 00:26:31,036 Speaker 2: a round version of a sea horse tail and you know, 478 00:26:31,356 --> 00:26:34,636 Speaker 2: satisfy this question. And then I started playing with the 479 00:26:34,716 --> 00:26:36,756 Speaker 2: round version and I was like, this thing's terrible. It 480 00:26:36,796 --> 00:26:39,676 Speaker 2: doesn't work anything like the square one does. And that's 481 00:26:39,676 --> 00:26:41,836 Speaker 2: where the question came from, Well why is it square? 482 00:26:41,956 --> 00:26:45,396 Speaker 2: And then we wrote this whole paper with some biologists 483 00:26:45,436 --> 00:26:48,716 Speaker 2: to sort of explain the evolutionary advantages that a square 484 00:26:48,716 --> 00:26:49,996 Speaker 2: tail had to a roundtail. 485 00:26:50,196 --> 00:26:52,076 Speaker 1: What are the advantages of it being square? 486 00:26:52,636 --> 00:26:56,156 Speaker 2: Yeah, so there's two main advantages, I believe. One is 487 00:26:56,156 --> 00:27:01,356 Speaker 2: that it resists this twisting or over torquing the tail itself. 488 00:27:01,396 --> 00:27:04,916 Speaker 2: So you've got this spinal column that runs through the center, okay, 489 00:27:04,956 --> 00:27:06,516 Speaker 2: and you can imagine if you take a bunch of 490 00:27:06,556 --> 00:27:08,796 Speaker 2: nerves and other things that are running through your spinal 491 00:27:08,836 --> 00:27:10,996 Speaker 2: column and twist them, that would be bad. 492 00:27:11,636 --> 00:27:14,596 Speaker 1: And if it's round, it's like more likely to twist. 493 00:27:15,076 --> 00:27:18,036 Speaker 2: Exactly because the square structure and the way that it's 494 00:27:18,076 --> 00:27:20,716 Speaker 2: built with these little pegs that sort of stick into 495 00:27:20,756 --> 00:27:24,516 Speaker 2: the sockets of the square component in front of it, 496 00:27:24,516 --> 00:27:28,876 Speaker 2: it resists over twisting that section of the tail. And 497 00:27:28,916 --> 00:27:32,116 Speaker 2: so as a result, it would help it not get 498 00:27:32,196 --> 00:27:35,596 Speaker 2: hurt or essentially even die if it were to be 499 00:27:35,676 --> 00:27:38,556 Speaker 2: pulled in one direction or another. So that's one advantage. 500 00:27:38,636 --> 00:27:42,276 Speaker 2: The other is that these square plates, the way they overlap, 501 00:27:42,436 --> 00:27:44,556 Speaker 2: they're like little L shapes, and so you have four 502 00:27:44,756 --> 00:27:47,196 Speaker 2: l's that overlap each other a little bit, and so 503 00:27:47,236 --> 00:27:51,436 Speaker 2: those overlapping sections allow them to slide a little bit. 504 00:27:51,756 --> 00:27:54,516 Speaker 2: So you can imagine if a predator was to come up, 505 00:27:54,556 --> 00:27:57,356 Speaker 2: like a bird come up and grab the sea horse, 506 00:27:57,916 --> 00:28:00,476 Speaker 2: it would crush the tail if it was to grab 507 00:28:00,516 --> 00:28:03,036 Speaker 2: onto the tail, and these little plates would allow them 508 00:28:03,076 --> 00:28:06,756 Speaker 2: to slide because the square and the overlap creates these 509 00:28:06,876 --> 00:28:11,236 Speaker 2: linear sections of slide. It allows it to just sort 510 00:28:11,276 --> 00:28:13,036 Speaker 2: of absorb the impact and bounce back. 511 00:28:13,196 --> 00:28:13,476 Speaker 1: Huh. 512 00:28:13,516 --> 00:28:16,796 Speaker 2: But the circular structure, the circles don't allow have that 513 00:28:16,836 --> 00:28:20,116 Speaker 2: sort of linear overlap. Now you've got these two overlapping 514 00:28:20,116 --> 00:28:22,876 Speaker 2: sections that want to pivot, and so that pivoting would 515 00:28:22,876 --> 00:28:25,436 Speaker 2: cause more damage in the tissue that would tear away 516 00:28:25,756 --> 00:28:28,316 Speaker 2: when it was grabbed. And so those are the two 517 00:28:28,876 --> 00:28:32,596 Speaker 2: sort of primary reasons why this tail is square. And 518 00:28:32,636 --> 00:28:36,236 Speaker 2: then I say a third would be it also allows 519 00:28:36,356 --> 00:28:40,236 Speaker 2: more surface contact onto things that it's grasping, So it's 520 00:28:40,276 --> 00:28:43,596 Speaker 2: better for grabbing grasping, and it's better for armor. 521 00:28:44,236 --> 00:28:46,876 Speaker 1: Did you ever end up coming up with a commercial 522 00:28:46,916 --> 00:28:49,356 Speaker 1: application for something built on the model of a sea 523 00:28:49,396 --> 00:28:50,156 Speaker 1: horse's tail. 524 00:28:51,356 --> 00:28:54,756 Speaker 2: No, I mean we had many ideas, but nothing that 525 00:28:54,836 --> 00:28:59,476 Speaker 2: actually took off. And after I left, I've casually kept 526 00:28:59,516 --> 00:29:02,036 Speaker 2: track of what else is going on in the seahorse world. 527 00:29:02,116 --> 00:29:05,436 Speaker 2: And there are new groups out there that have been 528 00:29:05,476 --> 00:29:10,156 Speaker 2: developing robots that mimic the tail and they look quite cool. 529 00:29:10,676 --> 00:29:13,556 Speaker 2: There's one funny paper where they even made a life 530 00:29:13,556 --> 00:29:16,716 Speaker 2: sized human scaled tail and stuck it on the back 531 00:29:16,716 --> 00:29:19,516 Speaker 2: of a human to see how it changes the balance 532 00:29:19,556 --> 00:29:20,756 Speaker 2: of a human as they're running. 533 00:29:22,156 --> 00:29:23,756 Speaker 1: Oh, if they're running. I thought they were going to 534 00:29:23,796 --> 00:29:25,476 Speaker 1: put them in water. It was going to be like 535 00:29:25,516 --> 00:29:27,636 Speaker 1: a mermaid, some kind of a robot mermaid. 536 00:29:27,676 --> 00:29:32,556 Speaker 2: There are some interesting academic ideas out there. Yeah, Academics 537 00:29:32,596 --> 00:29:34,756 Speaker 2: is a lot of fun and often leads to some 538 00:29:34,796 --> 00:29:39,556 Speaker 2: really cool, groundbreaking knowledge, often really silly stuff too. 539 00:29:39,996 --> 00:29:42,556 Speaker 1: You've talked a couple of times about sort of comparing 540 00:29:42,836 --> 00:29:46,436 Speaker 1: academia and industry and work, you know, working in the 541 00:29:46,436 --> 00:29:49,876 Speaker 1: private sector, Like, what's one thing you would want to 542 00:29:49,956 --> 00:29:55,156 Speaker 1: tell your colleagues in academia about industry, What's one thing 543 00:29:55,196 --> 00:29:58,476 Speaker 1: you wish professors understood about business or working. 544 00:30:01,116 --> 00:30:02,036 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a good question. 545 00:30:02,316 --> 00:30:03,236 Speaker 1: I would say. 546 00:30:04,756 --> 00:30:09,236 Speaker 2: That you have to work within the system that you 547 00:30:09,156 --> 00:30:13,356 Speaker 2: you live. So, you know, we live in a economic driven, 548 00:30:13,996 --> 00:30:17,076 Speaker 2: capitalist society for the most part, at least Western culture, 549 00:30:17,796 --> 00:30:25,276 Speaker 2: and really nothing gets done without some economic incentive, it seems. 550 00:30:25,756 --> 00:30:29,076 Speaker 2: And so in academics there's a lot of you know, 551 00:30:29,316 --> 00:30:35,236 Speaker 2: alarms raised on climate environment, you know, the mass extinctions, 552 00:30:35,316 --> 00:30:40,436 Speaker 2: things like this, but it's very rarely tied to real 553 00:30:40,756 --> 00:30:45,596 Speaker 2: economic incentives or real you know, real things that would 554 00:30:45,956 --> 00:30:50,836 Speaker 2: move the needle. And I think there needs to be 555 00:30:50,916 --> 00:30:56,636 Speaker 2: more emphasis on how the two can work together to 556 00:30:56,836 --> 00:31:01,356 Speaker 2: make solutions happen. For instance, with ocean Well, you know, 557 00:31:01,436 --> 00:31:05,276 Speaker 2: we have identified a commodity water that can be sold 558 00:31:05,316 --> 00:31:09,476 Speaker 2: to make money, and we are developing a technology that 559 00:31:09,556 --> 00:31:13,436 Speaker 2: can hopefully put a dent in one area at least 560 00:31:13,956 --> 00:31:19,316 Speaker 2: of planetary health and climate. And so I think there 561 00:31:19,356 --> 00:31:22,116 Speaker 2: needs to be more of that type of thinking in academia, 562 00:31:22,716 --> 00:31:26,156 Speaker 2: just bringing in the whole picture of what human society 563 00:31:26,236 --> 00:31:28,436 Speaker 2: really is right now. 564 00:31:34,876 --> 00:31:38,476 Speaker 1: Michael Porter is the chief technology officer at ocean Well. 565 00:31:39,676 --> 00:31:43,036 Speaker 1: Please email us at problem at Pushkin dot FM. We 566 00:31:43,076 --> 00:31:46,796 Speaker 1: are always looking for new guests for the show. Today's 567 00:31:46,796 --> 00:31:50,676 Speaker 1: show was produced by Trinomanino and Gabriel Hunter Chang, who 568 00:31:50,796 --> 00:31:54,796 Speaker 1: was edited by Alexander Garretton and engineered by Sarah briguerrett. 569 00:31:54,996 --> 00:31:57,156 Speaker 1: I'm Jacob Goldstein and we'll be back next week with 570 00:31:57,196 --> 00:31:58,596 Speaker 1: another episode of What's Your Pop