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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha and welcome to Stuff

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Speaker 1: I'll never told you a protection of iHeartRadio's house Stuffworks.

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Speaker 1: Be finally, finally, our launching our Sminty Feminis book Club. Yay,

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Speaker 1: it's been a long time coming. Please start sending in

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Speaker 1: suggestions please. We already have a few good ones. Oh, excellent,

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Speaker 1: kind of excited. Yeah, I've gotten some that. I'm definitely

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Speaker 1: very very excited about our first iteration of it. I

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Speaker 1: was gonna include the creators. I don't think we'll be

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Speaker 1: able to do that every time, but this time, right, Yes,

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Speaker 1: and it'll be two voices you should probably recognize, Kristen

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Speaker 1: and Caroline of Ladylike to talk about their book on

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Speaker 1: Lady Like a Field Guide to Smashing the Patriarchy and

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Speaker 1: Clan in your Space. And also yes, former hosts creators

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Speaker 1: of this very show. It was super meta and a

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Speaker 1: little intimidating for me because I started out as an intern,

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Speaker 1: young naive, didn't know much about feminism on this show.

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Speaker 1: I was intimidated then, and it's just it's been my

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Speaker 1: job for so long, I was the video producer, and

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Speaker 1: then to see them go and create this badass company

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Speaker 1: and write this book and their podcast and then be

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Speaker 1: on this one when I sort of have this this

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Speaker 1: whole history. It was a little it was a little

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Speaker 1: intimidating and kind of meta in a weirdness. It was meta.

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Speaker 1: I think I think they felt that too. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: was odd. It was like we were in two different

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Speaker 1: timelines and we were converging or something. It's true post

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Speaker 1: and the present meet exactly exactly. But we had an

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Speaker 1: amazing conversation and I guess we should just go ahead,

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Speaker 1: hop right in, let's do this thing. Today is a

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Speaker 1: very special day. Today is the inaugural episode of our

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Speaker 1: book club, and we were so excited to get this going.

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Speaker 1: And as many of the listeners already know, this is

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Speaker 1: the amazing episode with the lovely Kristen and Caroline of Unladylike,

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Speaker 1: What Hell creators and host Subsementia. Now with Unlady Like,

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Speaker 1: would you like to introduce yourself? Okay, my name is

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Speaker 1: Kristin Conger. I'm happy to be here and I'm here

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Speaker 1: with my work wife and co host and co author,

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Speaker 1: Miss Caroline Irvin. Hi, I'm Caroline Irvin. I'm as Sagittarius.

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Speaker 1: I was born in Atlanta, and I am the other

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Speaker 1: half of them lady like media. Yeah, so how do

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Speaker 1: you feel like being born and Sagittarius is a very

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Speaker 1: unlady like sign. I also am a sage Kristin. Kristen's

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Speaker 1: only like a week younger plus a year. Oh wow,

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Speaker 1: I totally feel like I identify with the good parts.

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Speaker 1: Oh I like that. That's selective. Yes, I'm very selective. Yes,

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Speaker 1: astrology is wonderful as long as you're really selective about it.

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Speaker 1: I also feel like I identify with the bad parts

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Speaker 1: of being as Sagittarius. But I do feel like anytime

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Speaker 1: you're talking to someone and you mentioned that you're a sage,

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Speaker 1: usually get a like oh yeah, like immediate Underland. We

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Speaker 1: just interviewed a Leo with a Virgo moon and she

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Speaker 1: was thrilled to hear that she was talking to two Sagittarians.

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Speaker 1: I was like, cool, So next question. Yeah, well I

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Speaker 1: will look more into that later because I don't know

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Speaker 1: much about astrology, but you, Samantha, you bring it up

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Speaker 1: sometimes I do because I am absolutely a Libra as

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Speaker 1: you like balance. I like balance. I'm a little stubborn.

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Speaker 1: I got all the things under all the sign. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm about justice and everybody chill out sounds good. I

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Speaker 1: like that. That's about how apparently I'm a little dramatic too.

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Speaker 1: I didn't think I was. But every now and again

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Speaker 1: she wishes, Hey, hey, let's keep this family. Can care

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Speaker 1: ki kids? Come on, come on, well, as this is

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Speaker 1: book club, we are here to talk about the book

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Speaker 1: that the two of you wrote. Congratulations. First of all,

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Speaker 1: that is no easy feats at all, and we were

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Speaker 1: both super excited to have you in here to talk

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Speaker 1: about it, super excited to read it. It is beautifully illustrated,

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Speaker 1: beautifully written. So thanks for being here. Could you give

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Speaker 1: us kind of a brief overview of the book and

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Speaker 1: what made you decide to write it and kind of

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Speaker 1: go the route that you did. Yes. So, the book

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Speaker 1: is unladylike a field guide to smashing the patriarchy and

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Speaker 1: claiming your space, and what it is is essentially a

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Speaker 1: top to bottom, head to tail, inside out look at

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Speaker 1: how gender works, where our very ideas about gender came from,

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Speaker 1: and also within that how patriarchy in particular, along with

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Speaker 1: all the other isms of racism, enableism, classism, all intertwined

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Speaker 1: to sort of shape the worlds around us and our

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Speaker 1: experiences in that and we really just kind of wanted

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Speaker 1: it to be a holistic feminist life guide slash like

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Speaker 1: semi self help manual. Yeah, we really wanted to reach

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Speaker 1: an audience of young folks. Sort of the target demo

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Speaker 1: was like folks just maybe out of college encountering these

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Speaker 1: isms in the real world for the first time. But honestly,

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Speaker 1: we've been really thrilled to have such a range of readers.

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Speaker 1: It's been really exciting. Yeah, I mean, it's in a

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Speaker 1: lot of ways, it's the book that we wish that

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Speaker 1: we had when when we were younger, when we were

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Speaker 1: even before, like getting into college and getting out into

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Speaker 1: the real world. But the Journey of unladylike both, I

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Speaker 1: would say, really the book, but even the podcast as well.

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Speaker 1: Started at a women's leadership conference at Clemson University where

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Speaker 1: a student asked us a question that left us kind

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Speaker 1: of scratching our heads, and rather than offering her a

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Speaker 1: succinct answer and forgetting about it and going on with

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Speaker 1: her life, was we kept thinking about it ended up

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Speaker 1: writing a whole book, Sokara, can you kind of pat So? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: we had done this talk on imposter syndrome, and a

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Speaker 1: bunch of young women came up to us after the talk,

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Speaker 1: and this one particular young woman said, listen, like, here

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Speaker 1: I am at this engineering school, I'm in classes with

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Speaker 1: so many more men than women, and how can I

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Speaker 1: speak up when I'm about to be shouted down at

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Speaker 1: any moment? Like all the time, I feel like I'm

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Speaker 1: always talked over. And you know, we did give her

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Speaker 1: some like basic advice, you know, like kind of you

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Speaker 1: go girl stuff, you got this, But on the car

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Speaker 1: ride home back from Clemson, we started thinking about, like

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Speaker 1: what would be some better advice because you know, there

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Speaker 1: are some really great books out there. You know, you

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Speaker 1: have Bad Feminist by Roxanne Gay, you have Yes Please,

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Speaker 1: you have Bossy Pants, you have all of these awesome

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Speaker 1: like memoirs and essay collections out there. But we kept

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Speaker 1: trying to think, like, what would be a more as

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Speaker 1: Kristen said, holistic guide to taking on some of these

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Speaker 1: issues that actually gets at the context, at the why.

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Speaker 1: Because we really felt like once you understand the why

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Speaker 1: why things are the way they are, that sets you

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Speaker 1: up way better to tackle the actual issues. And so yeah,

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Speaker 1: we started kind of brainstorming about, you know, would we

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Speaker 1: do Lady bios, would we do you know bios of

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Speaker 1: women from history. Would we just talk about dead women?

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Speaker 1: Oh God, we have to expand our vision. And one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons why it really stuck with us was

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Speaker 1: by that time we had been hosting stuff I've never

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Speaker 1: told you together for a number of years. We had

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Speaker 1: just been so immersed in like gender and feminism and

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Speaker 1: all these different facets, and the fact that we did

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Speaker 1: not have at the ready, like an easy answer to

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Speaker 1: what is a pretty straightforward question, like really through us

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Speaker 1: for a loop, and also thinking about like the identity

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Speaker 1: of this particular student who was asking us, because she

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Speaker 1: looked a lot like Caroline and me I e. She

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Speaker 1: it was a white young woman like sis gender sitting

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Speaker 1: there surrounded by all sorts of privilege you know that

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Speaker 1: comes with that. And if our like privilege is not

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Speaker 1: enough alone to like bulldoze through, then what are we

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Speaker 1: really looking at? And we realize that, like the bigger

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Speaker 1: question underneath all of that is like, well, okay, it's

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Speaker 1: the question is like, well, how how do you smash

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Speaker 1: the patriarchy? Like is that just a cute phrase? And

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Speaker 1: then what do we do? Once you smash the patriarchy?

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Speaker 1: You have to get your broom and clean it up?

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Speaker 1: Because that's also women's job. You cannot leave a mess

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Speaker 1: for someone else to clean up. Yeah, and so what

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Speaker 1: do you do after you smash this patriarchy, which is

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Speaker 1: honestly an ongoing act. It's it's all about claiming your

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Speaker 1: space so that you have a place to speak up

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Speaker 1: and maybe actually combat the feeling that you are about

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Speaker 1: to be shouted down at any moment. Yeah. I recently

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Speaker 1: was reading an articles as we ended the twenty ten

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Speaker 1: so we moved in the twenty twenties, and it was

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Speaker 1: talking about what is this future, what's going to happen?

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Speaker 1: And it had this whole section of I won't go

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Speaker 1: into the weeds because I'm a nerd. I love this stuff,

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Speaker 1: but post industrial economy and how that might be better

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Speaker 1: suited towards the women. And it was one of the

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Speaker 1: first time, not that I think this is going to

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Speaker 1: be quick or easy or maybe in my lifetime, probably not,

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Speaker 1: but I'd never even thought about what will happen, like,

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Speaker 1: what would happen if the patriarchy was gone, what would

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Speaker 1: that look like? What would that be like? I always

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Speaker 1: bought me to tears just thinking about it. And I

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Speaker 1: think it has been such a time of change really

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Speaker 1: quickly when it comes to a lot of the things

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Speaker 1: you tackled in this book. So it felt really timely.

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Speaker 1: And as someone who I learned a lot from both

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Speaker 1: of you, I was somebody who got out of college

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Speaker 1: and was just I didn't know. I didn't know a lot,

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Speaker 1: and there were a lot of things that I did

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Speaker 1: that I didn't realize were internalized misogyny or whatever it

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Speaker 1: might be. So I think that the time of this

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Speaker 1: is great, and I think how it's approachable for people

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Speaker 1: of all ages who might not know those things, and

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Speaker 1: it's sort of easy to digest and see it. And

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Speaker 1: the artwork and illustrations. Oh yeah, Tyler, Tyler fetter Y

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Speaker 1: so wonderful. And we have literally, as of this recording,

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Speaker 1: never met Tyler in person. Really, we encountered her on

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Speaker 1: the internet. I literally met on Twitter, yeah, and Kristin

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Speaker 1: Kristen reached out to her to see if you know, like, hey,

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Speaker 1: we don't I don't know you, but illustrate my book. Baby. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Tyler was so instrumental to bringing unladylike to life because she,

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Speaker 1: without even like needing instruction, really understood that the kind

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Speaker 1: of representation we wanted to present in the book that

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Speaker 1: at some point, like you will whoever you are, whatever

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Speaker 1: your background, like you will see yourself reflected at some point.

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Speaker 1: Because also as like two white feminists to feminists who

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Speaker 1: are white writing a feminist guide, we also did not

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Speaker 1: want to just write another like white feminist guide and

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Speaker 1: going to like your point, Annie of sort of like

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Speaker 1: even envisioning a world without patriarchy, like and what that

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Speaker 1: would even mean. Another gap that we were trying to

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Speaker 1: fill is how sort of siloed feminism and gender conversations

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Speaker 1: can be. Like we'll talk about, oh, you need to

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Speaker 1: negotiate and like break some glass ceilings at work. Oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, like gender equal relationships, whatever that means. But

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Speaker 1: like a lot of times I feel like those we

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Speaker 1: never kind of take the bird's eye view of how

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Speaker 1: all of those things intersect, Like we don't. We're living

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Speaker 1: our lives in a much more like kind of fluid way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it's easy to say, like go break a glass ceiling,

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Speaker 1: but it's another thing to actually understand how our different

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Speaker 1: identities intersect in a way that makes that a lot

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Speaker 1: harder for certain people than others. And that's like we

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Speaker 1: cover that. We have an entire chapter about money because

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Speaker 1: that's not just something you can like touch on and

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Speaker 1: be like one and done, just try to negotiate a salary.

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Speaker 1: Go girl, There's so much more to it. Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: we talk about money. We've got a chapter on mental health,

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Speaker 1: on our bodies, on beauty, on just the I want

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Speaker 1: to say mystery, but it's probably not so much of

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Speaker 1: a mystery, mystery to the patriarchy that is the uterus,

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Speaker 1: and we talk about like we unpack rape culture. We

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Speaker 1: also devote a chapter to activism, so really trying to

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Speaker 1: like again top to bottom, it's the clips we sometimes say,

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Speaker 1: well because also and it was necessary to do that

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Speaker 1: in our minds, because patriarchy is insidious, right, Annie, you

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Speaker 1: mentioned internalized misogyny. I mean when you talk about pay patriarchy,

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Speaker 1: we're not just talking about your like white boss, right,

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Speaker 1: We're like talking about a system that is so deeply

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Speaker 1: ingrained in our culture to the point where, yes, it

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Speaker 1: is even something that women uphold a lot of times

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Speaker 1: white women uphold, and so we wanted to sort of

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Speaker 1: interrogate and investigate how it snakes its way into every

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Speaker 1: corner of our lives, right, Yeah, And kind of going

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Speaker 1: off of that, obviously, feminism is a big topic and

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Speaker 1: it touches a lot, as does the patriarchy. And you

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Speaker 1: were talking this kind of early process of what do

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Speaker 1: I put in here? What do I have in here?

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Speaker 1: How did you arrive at what you you went with? Well,

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Speaker 1: we had a word count, true, always so by word count,

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Speaker 1: I mean we we wanted to put twice as much

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Speaker 1: as we could have. How did we really kind of

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Speaker 1: whittle it down? I mean I feel like we knew,

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Speaker 1: we knew the big kind of like topic areas that

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Speaker 1: we wanted to cover in terms of like body image,

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Speaker 1: beauty standards, money, mental health. But it took a long

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Speaker 1: time of shuffling those post it notes around quite literally

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Speaker 1: to figure out, like, well, what is the chapter? Is

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Speaker 1: the chapter when you're really young, when you're middle aged,

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Speaker 1: when you're elderly, or is it like when you're a student,

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Speaker 1: when you're a professional, Like how are we organizing all this?

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Speaker 1: And we kind of wrote two books, three books? How

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Speaker 1: many books did we write in the process of writing

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Speaker 1: this book? I think too too. Yeah, it was definitely

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Speaker 1: quite a process of just figuring out what went where.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, we knew the basics, we knew we had

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Speaker 1: to address the ways that things like mental health and

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Speaker 1: gender and race and ethnicity intersected with all of these

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Speaker 1: other aspects of life, And I think like a big

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Speaker 1: guiding question too, was what kinds of fastest of our

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Speaker 1: lives and facets of gender do we tend to take

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Speaker 1: for granted? And how can we actually pull the lens

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Speaker 1: back and provide real context as to where these ideas

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Speaker 1: even came from, what they even mean, and how they

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Speaker 1: apply and intersect with all of our other identities. So

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Speaker 1: really trying to constantly ask the question of but why, yeah, well,

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Speaker 1: and what is unlady like? Because definitely, in the course

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Speaker 1: of doing too much research and going down too many

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Speaker 1: rabbit holes, there's a bunch of information that didn't make

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Speaker 1: it into the book. Sure, but a lot of it

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Speaker 1: too was like wait, wait, wait, wait, let me back up,

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Speaker 1: Like this is interesting, this could potentially be helpful, but

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Speaker 1: how does it tie into the idea of what is

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Speaker 1: unlady like? How is this helping contextualize feminism and patriarchy?

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Speaker 1: And ultimately we had to define for ourselves, like what

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Speaker 1: is unlady like? It's going against expectations of gender, it's

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Speaker 1: going against expectations of sex. It's not just some tips

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Speaker 1: and tricks that are handy to pull out. Yeah at

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Speaker 1: a time. Yeah, it's not about etiquette so much as

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Speaker 1: again going into the research portion, especially in looking at

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Speaker 1: how our cultural idea of gender roles in womanhood, where

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Speaker 1: that even developed, and who was allowed to be a

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Speaker 1: lady in our society versus whoever wasn't, And it very

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Speaker 1: quickly crystallized that ladyhood and this idea of sort of

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Speaker 1: gendered respectability politics in a way, which is what white

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Speaker 1: ladies like initially leveraged in order to get any sort

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Speaker 1: of like social power in terms of suffrage and things

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Speaker 1: like that. But then realizing that ladyhood encompasses so much

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Speaker 1: about the problematic aspects of white feminism and digging beyond

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Speaker 1: just sort of the platitudes of yeah, gender equality. Right. So,

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Speaker 1: speaking of which, when it comes to inesectionality, you talk

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Speaker 1: a lot about very perspective on women of color, black women,

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Speaker 1: women of disabled who are gendered all of that. How

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Speaker 1: did you go into researching this because obviously I say

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Speaker 1: this as an Asian woman, I'm very one perspective. This

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Speaker 1: is what I know. I'll know it from white culture

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Speaker 1: because I was raised in white culture. How did you

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Speaker 1: come about in researching to make sure you had the

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Speaker 1: appropriate information in representation, as well as being a voice

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Speaker 1: for white women to be like, hey, we need to

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Speaker 1: look beyond our own selves and what is problematic and

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Speaker 1: what isn't. How did you guys go through in researching knowing, guessing,

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Speaker 1: I don't know how to put what in the book? Well, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean just from terms of like identity standpoint, as

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Speaker 1: you're talking about, we just we were very very strict

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Speaker 1: with ourselves about keeping that whole identity piece front and

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Speaker 1: center as we did everything. It was sort of one

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Speaker 1: of the guiding principles in terms of how we approached

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Speaker 1: all of these topics. It's like, we know we are

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Speaker 1: too like white, straight cis middle class, college educated women,

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Speaker 1: but we can't only address things that affect us. So

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Speaker 1: if you try to just move away from that singular

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Speaker 1: perspective and bring more people into the conversation, the research

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Speaker 1: and then the writing will be that much richer. Right,

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Speaker 1: So with that, what you have in here is awesome

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Speaker 1: because I was reading through and it was very beautiful.

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Speaker 1: The illustrations were very beautiful. I felt represented. Thank you,

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Speaker 1: thank you very much. How do people who because let's

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Speaker 1: Basically a lot of our listeners are white females, Sam

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Speaker 1: with a big quick For those who are seeking to

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Speaker 1: go beyond their own worlds or beyond their small friend groups,

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Speaker 1: how would you say for them to do it? Obviously

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Speaker 1: you've got some stuff in here in the book, but

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Speaker 1: it grows, like the continued knowledge is bigger and better,

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Speaker 1: whether it's the sixteen nineteen movement or whatever. As we're

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Speaker 1: listening to and hearing about today, how would you recommend

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Speaker 1: for someone who are seeking to go beyond their own

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Speaker 1: small world We've got a motto. We've got a moto

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Speaker 1: for that. We have a motto. I mean that motto.

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Speaker 1: So we have have an overall like guiding motto for

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Speaker 1: everything that we make for unladylike. It's certainly baked into

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Speaker 1: the book and it's also in like every podcast episode

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Speaker 1: that we make. And our motto is stay curious, build empathy,

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Speaker 1: raise hell because throughout like our personal and professional journeys,

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Speaker 1: like that has been the theme of what has gotten

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Speaker 1: us to this point. As fellow nerds. You two know

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Speaker 1: the power of just staying curious and relentlessly asking wait, wait, wait,

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Speaker 1: bo why boe why and like seeking out the information

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Speaker 1: until you can find it, and that curiosity cultivates empathy,

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Speaker 1: and empathy is so core to looking at the world

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Speaker 1: through an intersectional lens of actually opening your mind up

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Speaker 1: to be able to have difficult conversations and to even

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Speaker 1: to think beyond your own in group, and then taking

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Speaker 1: that and putting it into action, which we call raising hell.

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Speaker 1: I feel like you can raise hell. You know, we're

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Speaker 1: not talking about necessarily like burning down building. Okay, there's

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Speaker 1: a spectrum. It's not necessarily arson, but that can be.

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Speaker 1: That can be in everyday ways, whether it is having

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Speaker 1: conversations that you feel uncomfortable having with your partner or

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Speaker 1: with a friend, calling out that racist uncle at the

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Speaker 1: dinner table, whatever it might be, or going into your

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Speaker 1: boss and being like, I'm going to race some hell

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Speaker 1: in my own life and quit my job and go independent.

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Speaker 1: By I don't know anything about that. I do want

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Speaker 1: to come back to that racist uncle thing, not for

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Speaker 1: my own No, I just feel like a lot of people,

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Speaker 1: a lot of listeners, writing questions about that specifically, how

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Speaker 1: do I hand? Maybe we should go ahead and talk

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Speaker 1: about it as feminists and ones that raise hell. I'm

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Speaker 1: sure we're all familiar with kind of different shades of

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Speaker 1: blowback or are you having those moments of do I

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Speaker 1: engage right? And if so, what is going to be

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Speaker 1: the most beneficial? And you talk about that right a

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Speaker 1: little bit in the book at the end, So could

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Speaker 1: you go into you if you have anything that's worked

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Speaker 1: for you or just general for that racist uncle and

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Speaker 1: you're like, okay, is this the time? What do I do? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: One thing that we preach a lot is just asking why.

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Speaker 1: So on the one hand, we preach asking why for

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Speaker 1: your own education and enlightenment right to get the context

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Speaker 1: to understand to be a better feminist and a better human,

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Speaker 1: But we also preach actually verbally saying why to that

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Speaker 1: racist uncle or whoever else in your family is racist

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Speaker 1: or other ists, because being confrontational calling someone a racist

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Speaker 1: or a sexist tends not to work out very well conversationally.

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Speaker 1: Turns out people tend to shut down. Yes, so it

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Speaker 1: tends to also reinforce right those ideas, It makes them

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Speaker 1: tends to be people more defensive, right, right, And so

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Speaker 1: we definitely advocate asking why why do you believe that?

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Speaker 1: Or it sounds like you're saying xyz thing is that right? Oh? Well,

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Speaker 1: why do you think that way. Here's how I thought

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Speaker 1: it worked. And the more you can sort of productively

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Speaker 1: kind of challenge someone's ideas alongside them, the more productive

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Speaker 1: your conversation can be. Yeah, something else that comes to

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Speaker 1: mind is something we talked about a lot on an

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Speaker 1: Unladylike podcast a while back with a guest named Francesca Ramsey.

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Speaker 1: She has an amazing YouTube channel. She does all sorts

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Speaker 1: of stuff, but this is sort of her one of

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Speaker 1: her specialties, and she focuses a lot on calling out

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Speaker 1: versus calling in. So when you call someone out, that is,

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Speaker 1: you know, pointing out America's racist uncle and saying that's wrong,

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Speaker 1: what you just said is totally messed up and here's

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Speaker 1: the reason why, and kind of putting them on the spot,

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Speaker 1: And sometimes that can be effective. However, what is often

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Speaker 1: more effective and goes more to what Caroline's talking about

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Speaker 1: in terms of starting an actual dialogue or at least

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Speaker 1: attempting to. I mean, the other person might just be like,

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Speaker 1: I don't want to talk about those is calling in.

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Speaker 1: So actually pulling someone aside, not like putting them on

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Speaker 1: blast to publicly shame them, although again that can be

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Speaker 1: an effective tool, but you also have the other tool

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Speaker 1: of really trying to with an open mind, trying to

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Speaker 1: sit down and actually have a conversation, to understand where

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Speaker 1: they are coming from and actually see why they even

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Speaker 1: want you to know their opinion. It's a particular thing. Well,

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Speaker 1: and I find that storytelling is really effective too. I mean,

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Speaker 1: here we are, we're four podcasters in a room. We

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Speaker 1: understand the value of talking and sharing stories. And I

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Speaker 1: very personally in my own life recently have had conversations

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Speaker 1: with two different people who honestly just had questions about

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Speaker 1: certain gender and identity issues and we were able to

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Speaker 1: have a conversation about it, and it went really well

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Speaker 1: because I was able to share stories from my own life,

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Speaker 1: stories about people I know, And that's a much nicer

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Speaker 1: way to illustrate something. Not to argue that you should

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Speaker 1: believe in someone's humanity, because of course you should, and

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Speaker 1: if you don't, like I can't really help you not

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Speaker 1: be an asshole. So if you do find yourself in

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Speaker 1: a place where you actually are having a conversation with

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Speaker 1: this racist uncle or whoever, storytelling and sharing these personal

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Speaker 1: stories from your own life can be such an effective

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Speaker 1: way to help them see the benefits of basically having

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Speaker 1: an open mind slash minding their own business. And I

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Speaker 1: feel like this is also a lesson that Caroline and

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Speaker 1: I have learned learned, like in the process of being podcasters,

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Speaker 1: like so much of even us walking into a lady

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Speaker 1: like with an intersectional perspective, I attribute to things that

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Speaker 1: we really learned, specifically from stuff Mom've never told you,

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Speaker 1: listeners who called us in via email and we're like, hey,

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Speaker 1: I appreciate what you're doing, and I see your good

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Speaker 1: intent execution could be improved. Here is how and like

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Speaker 1: and those kind of moments like I appreciate, Like, it's

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Speaker 1: why it's why podcasting is so amazing, because there are

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Speaker 1: those it can create, those kinds of relationships and those

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Speaker 1: kinds of exchanges that we just don't really see that

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Speaker 1: much of on the internet in particular, where it's just

429
00:26:46,160 --> 00:26:49,360
Speaker 1: all hot takes, right right. Yeah, that's a good point.

430
00:26:49,359 --> 00:26:52,080
Speaker 1: I've never really thought about kind of listener correction as

431
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:55,800
Speaker 1: being hey, I know, and it's and you you have

432
00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:59,359
Speaker 1: to kind of practice the whole like open mindedness, cutting

433
00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:03,640
Speaker 1: down your defense to say, defense of white women's syndrome,

434
00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 1: nothing worse. Yeah, you gotta get white ladies. You've got

435
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,160
Speaker 1: to get past it. You gotta allow yourself to be criticized.

436
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 1: White ladies who've had to get past it. You got

437
00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:15,160
Speaker 1: to get past it. Yeah, it'll be so much better

438
00:27:15,200 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 1: on the other side. Oh, I guess kind of related

439
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:23,520
Speaker 1: to that. I feel like a lot of people hesitate

440
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,000
Speaker 1: or shy away from the label of feminism because there

441
00:27:26,080 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 1: is this expectation that you have to be perfect otherwise

442
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,840
Speaker 1: you are a bad feminist, which prox Saint Gay did

443
00:27:32,880 --> 00:27:36,119
Speaker 1: help kind of turn that on its head and was

444
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 1: amazing for me personally. But how have you found because

445
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:42,240
Speaker 1: you've been you've both been in this world for a while,

446
00:27:42,960 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: have you found like a balance of having confidence in

447
00:27:46,640 --> 00:27:50,439
Speaker 1: your voice and saying no, this is my space and

448
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: I deserve to be heard. That's a good question. I

449
00:27:55,880 --> 00:27:59,879
Speaker 1: mean I haven't. No. I was about to say, like

450
00:28:00,240 --> 00:28:04,640
Speaker 1: from birth thanks to my mother. I was like, oh

451
00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: so hashtag work in progress. No, I was raised by

452
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: a very strong slash. I don't know what other adjectives

453
00:28:14,560 --> 00:28:16,880
Speaker 1: that I can vibrant? Well, yes, I was like, okay,

454
00:28:16,880 --> 00:28:19,000
Speaker 1: if I'm going to be bleeped, what else can I say?

455
00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: Just vibrant. She's a vibrant woman who would definitely not

456
00:28:23,359 --> 00:28:25,840
Speaker 1: describe herself as a feminist. She literally came to our

457
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: very first book event at Agnes Scott College and walked

458
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: up to Er Anderson, who is the executive director of

459
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:36,879
Speaker 1: Kara's Circle, who was helping put on the event. Kara's

460
00:28:36,880 --> 00:28:42,560
Speaker 1: Circle is the nonprofit arm the foundation arm of Karras Books,

461
00:28:42,600 --> 00:28:46,160
Speaker 1: which is the oldest feminist bookstore in Georgia or in

462
00:28:46,160 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: the Southeast, I believe it's the Southeast anyway, put on

463
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 1: this wonderful event. My mother like walks right up to

464
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,000
Speaker 1: Er and is like, I'm not a feminist. I don't

465
00:28:56,040 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: know where she gets it. I was lucky enough to

466
00:29:00,840 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 1: have two parents who would have like literally killed for

467
00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 1: me and made it safe for me to always be

468
00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:11,760
Speaker 1: kind of loud and self righteous, and thank God, through

469
00:29:11,760 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: a process of socialization, being in college, starting to podcast,

470
00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: I've definitely become better at pointing that energy in a

471
00:29:22,200 --> 00:29:26,120
Speaker 1: more like concentrated productive direction. See. I feel like I

472
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 1: took and am taking the opposite course to sort of

473
00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 1: the same destination because I think the thing that has

474
00:29:35,840 --> 00:29:40,640
Speaker 1: and continues to sort of ground my feminism and my

475
00:29:40,800 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: confidence in it and my ownership of that label is

476
00:29:48,400 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 1: learning about the context and again like having some facts

477
00:29:55,040 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: and some know how to support like yeah, yeah, no, no no, no, no,

478
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,880
Speaker 1: this is this is real what I'm talking about, and

479
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,440
Speaker 1: these things do you make a difference. And this is

480
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: not just an empty label. I mean but even like

481
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 1: the term feminism too is so can be so slippery,

482
00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: because we also don't want to get into the territory

483
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: of feminism just being a catch all for whatever a

484
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:21,640
Speaker 1: woman makes up her mind to do. Therefore is feminist

485
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,560
Speaker 1: because it is a woman doing things right, which I

486
00:30:24,560 --> 00:30:28,440
Speaker 1: think is often how it is unfortunately like portrayed. But yeah,

487
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:32,800
Speaker 1: it's for me, It's it's all about context and grounding

488
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:38,160
Speaker 1: myself first and also taking some time for self reflection

489
00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,840
Speaker 1: and asking myself like why I do feel these particular

490
00:30:41,880 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: ways and what kinds of personal experiences have shaped my

491
00:30:45,920 --> 00:30:50,360
Speaker 1: feminism Because similarly to you, Caroline, like I was not

492
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:54,960
Speaker 1: raised in an overtly like feminist home. Oh god no,

493
00:30:55,600 --> 00:30:59,600
Speaker 1: like my I will never forget my dad loving dad

494
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,479
Speaker 1: tell me, oh, well, uh you know, I know, I

495
00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 1: know you're a feminist, but you're not like one of

496
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 1: those glorious stinus Oh I love it, which I was like, oh,

497
00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:17,719
Speaker 1: you have no idea dad, but even worse. But at

498
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: the same time, like they raised an accidental feminist because

499
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 1: they were very much on the like feeding and supporting

500
00:31:26,120 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: like curiosity as a kid. So yeah, it's funny, So okay, Like,

501
00:31:31,720 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: so I was answering more of the question of like

502
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,000
Speaker 1: finding my voice. It was kind of a thing of like, well,

503
00:31:36,040 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: I actually had to like tone it down and refine

504
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,160
Speaker 1: that voice. But yeah, in terms of feminism too, it

505
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: was another thing of like I was a slowly boiled frog,

506
00:31:43,920 --> 00:31:46,840
Speaker 1: Like I don't know a time when I didn't believe

507
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:50,120
Speaker 1: in these sorts of philosophies and worldviews, but it just

508
00:31:50,160 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: became crystallized as I got older, did the reading, did

509
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:57,800
Speaker 1: the listening, and figured out that there was language and

510
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: history and context around these things. And yeah, and so

511
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:03,560
Speaker 1: that is definitely a thing of beauty because no, I

512
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:05,960
Speaker 1: was not raised in a household where either of my

513
00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 1: parents would have been like down with feminism. Well, and

514
00:32:09,800 --> 00:32:12,040
Speaker 1: I like one thing I think about to you in

515
00:32:12,160 --> 00:32:17,480
Speaker 1: terms of the insecurity that I, my younger self has

516
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:20,440
Speaker 1: had with calling myself a feminist, you know, in like

517
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:24,240
Speaker 1: everyday conversations. The point that I had to come to

518
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:27,640
Speaker 1: with that was not asking like, well, what's wrong with feminism?

519
00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,480
Speaker 1: Do we need a different term? But rather asking myself

520
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,240
Speaker 1: like why am why am I uncomfortable with possibly making

521
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:39,280
Speaker 1: other people uncomfortable and possibly making other people think that,

522
00:32:39,800 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 1: you know, if other people think that I'm a man hater,

523
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:46,240
Speaker 1: why is that my problem? Right? So, my roommate's dad

524
00:32:46,400 --> 00:32:50,840
Speaker 1: came to visit recently, and while he was waiting for

525
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:53,560
Speaker 1: his daughter to get ready, he took a look at

526
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:58,600
Speaker 1: my bookshelves, which are stocked with all sorts of subversive things.

527
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 1: And by that, I just mean like a couple of

528
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 1: feminist books in some novels, you know, like, but it

529
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:07,240
Speaker 1: was when I say subversive, that's heavy air quotes and

530
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: it's subversive to him, yes, And he asked his daughter.

531
00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,320
Speaker 1: He did not ask this in front of me, but

532
00:33:12,400 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: he asked my roommate, so, uh, what kind of feminist

533
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: is Caroline? And she's like, what do you mean? And

534
00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:25,480
Speaker 1: he said, well, is she the like equal rights feminist?

535
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: Or is she like that I hate all men feminists?

536
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,200
Speaker 1: She was like, well, Dad, of course she's like equal rights.

537
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:35,720
Speaker 1: And I was like, well truth a day, but yeah,

538
00:33:35,760 --> 00:33:37,440
Speaker 1: but I but I do think that that's so funny

539
00:33:37,480 --> 00:33:40,360
Speaker 1: because I think perhaps a younger me would have been

540
00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 1: concerned similarly of like not upsetting people, but like, I

541
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: don't want you to think that I'm mean and won't

542
00:33:47,920 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: listen and can't have a conversation and then I'm a bitch.

543
00:33:51,240 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 1: But yeah, as I've gotten older, also, I care so

544
00:33:54,520 --> 00:34:00,960
Speaker 1: much less about what other people think about meaning so much. Yeah,

545
00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 1: I think that's what happens with age. Yes, start loving

546
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:05,640
Speaker 1: the th that, hey, I'm just gonna go brawl us.

547
00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:09,279
Speaker 1: I don't care if i'll hand down. You're welcome. We

548
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 1: have some more of our conversation with unladylike, but first

549
00:34:12,120 --> 00:34:14,400
Speaker 1: we're gonna pause for a quick break forward from our sponsor,

550
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,160
Speaker 1: and we're back. Thank you sponsor. Going back to the

551
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 1: bad feminism thing and how people, I think for some

552
00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 1: people they shy away because they feel they can't hold

553
00:34:36,280 --> 00:34:39,040
Speaker 1: themselves to these standards. And I was that way for

554
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 1: a while. And I think that this is great because

555
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,600
Speaker 1: it has chapters on things that we a lot of

556
00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,840
Speaker 1: us have a lot of anxiety around, like beauty or

557
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:51,000
Speaker 1: you're like, well, am I supporting the patriarchy by doing

558
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:52,920
Speaker 1: these things? Does it mean if I wear lipstick then

559
00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 1: I'm a terrible feminist get out exactly exactly. So I

560
00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,919
Speaker 1: think it's great to have kind of as you said,

561
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,080
Speaker 1: some people just have questions or some people just want

562
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 1: something to be like, Okay, no, this is all right.

563
00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: I should think about why I have anxiety around it. Yeah,

564
00:35:09,960 --> 00:35:13,239
Speaker 1: but it's all right. We were discussing earlier when we

565
00:35:13,239 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 1: were talking about doing this that as you were pitching

566
00:35:16,520 --> 00:35:20,480
Speaker 1: this book it was twenty sixteen, yes, and you were

567
00:35:20,480 --> 00:35:24,879
Speaker 1: perhaps per pitching there was a different thing in your mind. Yes,

568
00:35:25,000 --> 00:35:29,560
Speaker 1: oh yeah, we were pitching a book for like a

569
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: feminist manual for this incredible age when we have the

570
00:35:33,120 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: first female president, and isn't feminism just like the Loveland now?

571
00:35:41,719 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 1: Like literally, like I fancy it's for all. At one

572
00:35:45,719 --> 00:35:48,800
Speaker 1: point when we when we finally we started actually writing

573
00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: the book in twenty seventeen, and there was a point

574
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 1: when I had to stop and I was like, why

575
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:02,280
Speaker 1: does this feel so difficult at this moment? And somehow

576
00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:05,359
Speaker 1: I like ran across like the initial like little kind

577
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:09,560
Speaker 1: of like cover letter for the book, and I was like, oh,

578
00:36:09,640 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: because I thought we were writing it for a totally

579
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:16,920
Speaker 1: different era. Okay. In our editing process and with our

580
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 1: actual editor, there were like so many Trump references that

581
00:36:20,120 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: had to be taken out. She's like, you want your

582
00:36:21,600 --> 00:36:24,279
Speaker 1: book to be evergreen, right, Yeah. The first draft I

583
00:36:24,280 --> 00:36:25,920
Speaker 1: think was us just like working out a lot of

584
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:32,680
Speaker 1: initial anger. Yeah, so much anger. I was gonna say,

585
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,440
Speaker 1: how would have changed now with a rerunning some of

586
00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:38,280
Speaker 1: the things that some of the mistakes that had happened

587
00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:40,839
Speaker 1: when you were first starting this book. I mean I

588
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,120
Speaker 1: was okay, funny you asked smath because I was just

589
00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 1: kind of thinking about that recently and like, what what

590
00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:54,759
Speaker 1: will be the next step, because like, regardless of what

591
00:36:54,840 --> 00:37:00,279
Speaker 1: happens in twenty twenty, and the thing that I came

592
00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:05,560
Speaker 1: back to was the white feminism of it all and

593
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 1: the problematic white lady ness of it all, and that

594
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:16,440
Speaker 1: that is still a message that the white women need

595
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: to understand. I'm not articulating it well, but I know

596
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 1: what you're saying. No, I understand what you're saying. I like, no, no,

597
00:37:25,840 --> 00:37:30,200
Speaker 1: You're okay, I get what you're saying. Maybe because I'm like, yeah, well,

598
00:37:30,239 --> 00:37:32,759
Speaker 1: because there was first the shock of like, oh wait,

599
00:37:32,920 --> 00:37:38,759
Speaker 1: we America actually wanted to elect a racist misogynists like

600
00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:43,319
Speaker 1: orange human okay, and then there's been this kind of

601
00:37:43,400 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 1: slow roll out that I've noticed of white women in

602
00:37:46,719 --> 00:37:54,520
Speaker 1: particular still being shocked by white women in particular being

603
00:37:54,920 --> 00:37:59,799
Speaker 1: complicit in all of that, upholding all of that. Also

604
00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:04,000
Speaker 1: if we look at voting patterns like here in Georgia,

605
00:38:04,239 --> 00:38:08,160
Speaker 1: for instance, the twenty eighteen election was also a big

606
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 1: moment for me of like, Okay, maybe we need to

607
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:14,400
Speaker 1: rewrite on ladylike, but just make it okay, dear white ladies,

608
00:38:14,800 --> 00:38:19,920
Speaker 1: pick up this book please, because Stacy Abrams was running

609
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:25,160
Speaker 1: for governor, and the exit polling of that election was

610
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:31,920
Speaker 1: so disheartening because so few white women were comfortable voting

611
00:38:32,200 --> 00:38:34,960
Speaker 1: for her. And that was also something that I heard,

612
00:38:35,000 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: particularly from older white women in my life, who would

613
00:38:39,080 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: not explicitly say that they weren't on board with her

614
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,279
Speaker 1: because she is a black woman. But I could read

615
00:38:46,320 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 1: between those lines, and I think that that is there's

616
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: just still there's a long road to host still for

617
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,879
Speaker 1: a lot of like white feminism needs to be I'm

618
00:38:56,920 --> 00:39:04,400
Speaker 1: making a gesture like I'm weeding y uprooted. Yes, yeah,

619
00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:07,279
Speaker 1: I like that gesture, or say, if you wanted to

620
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,160
Speaker 1: add to it, oh well, the only thing that I

621
00:39:10,200 --> 00:39:13,960
Speaker 1: would add would be in terms of like what would

622
00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 1: we potentially rewrite or do differently At this point, it's like, well,

623
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: not all that much, honestly, because we're still in a

624
00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 1: same rerun bucket of sick bleep. So thank you, thank

625
00:39:32,280 --> 00:39:36,760
Speaker 1: you for helping us out anything I can do production,

626
00:39:38,280 --> 00:39:42,160
Speaker 1: including this conversation we're having about it. You already kind

627
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 1: of touched on this a little bit when we were

628
00:39:43,960 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: talking about finding you a voice and all of that,

629
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: because you do have a section about imposter syndrome, which

630
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:53,399
Speaker 1: obviously is a huge thing still and will be for

631
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: a long, long, long while. Even as our new election

632
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: is coming on and we see the erasure of Elizabeth Warren,

633
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:02,839
Speaker 1: and I find that one more kind of caveat of yeah,

634
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:04,560
Speaker 1: this is why we have been imposited in Rome. Here's

635
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 1: this woman who we've been told that if she was

636
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 1: the elect before, she would have won because she's so likable.

637
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,120
Speaker 1: But well we're here and we're being told, oh, no, no, no,

638
00:40:14,200 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: she's not really that like I. It's not that I

639
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 1: it's not that I wouldn't vote for a woman like

640
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 1: I would totally vote for Elizabeth Warren. It's just like

641
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: she's not the one running. It's Hillary. And now that

642
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,439
Speaker 1: we're like, we're here, all right, y'all. Like, let's well,

643
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:30,840
Speaker 1: I would totally vote for a woman, but but but

644
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:34,880
Speaker 1: not any of these women who are running, right every time?

645
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:38,520
Speaker 1: Can I just can I like nominate a woman from

646
00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: like my neighborhood. I actually like told my grandma, oh

647
00:40:41,840 --> 00:40:49,719
Speaker 1: my god, oh god, I'm leaving. God, I'm leaving. All right,

648
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,600
Speaker 1: I said the tea word that word. But yeah, but

649
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 1: with that, I mean that just kinds of adds to,

650
00:40:54,760 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, these people who we see as the

651
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:01,320
Speaker 1: standard of possibly succeeding are not succeeding, whether Sacy Abrams

652
00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:03,480
Speaker 1: as we talked about before, or Elizabeth Warren as we're

653
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,520
Speaker 1: talking about, And it kind of adds to that whole

654
00:41:05,560 --> 00:41:08,359
Speaker 1: imposter syndrome once again, and you guys dive into it.

655
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,719
Speaker 1: What do you say for and then you know, we've

656
00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:13,000
Speaker 1: talked about it many times, you've talked about it many times,

657
00:41:13,280 --> 00:41:16,040
Speaker 1: But what do we say for women who let's say politically,

658
00:41:16,080 --> 00:41:18,480
Speaker 1: because I want to talk to those who are thinking

659
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 1: about running, because we need more and more and more

660
00:41:21,160 --> 00:41:25,279
Speaker 1: representation out there about those who may be experiencing the

661
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:28,000
Speaker 1: imposter syndrome and or breaking that down or how to

662
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:30,680
Speaker 1: break away from it. Well, something that I think you

663
00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:35,160
Speaker 1: said earlier, Samantha jumps out in terms of starting with

664
00:41:35,239 --> 00:41:39,320
Speaker 1: a worldview that is like clear eyed about the realities

665
00:41:39,440 --> 00:41:46,560
Speaker 1: of sexism, racism, unconscious bias. That there is so much

666
00:41:46,600 --> 00:41:50,000
Speaker 1: research on now in terms of voting behaviors and things

667
00:41:50,040 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: like that. So I think that not to say that

668
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 1: like you have to assume that it's going to be

669
00:41:54,200 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 1: terrible and that you will win, but also understand that, like,

670
00:41:57,360 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 1: these are the forces that are in place. And one

671
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 1: thing that we really tried to focus on in the

672
00:42:05,120 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 1: women that we profile in unladylike like a Shirley Chisholm,

673
00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 1: who also ran for president in nineteen seventy two, so

674
00:42:14,239 --> 00:42:17,719
Speaker 1: when she was running, Patsy Mink, a representative from Hawaii,

675
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:21,960
Speaker 1: also ran the same year, and they understood very clearly

676
00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:27,120
Speaker 1: that their chances of winning were slim to none. And

677
00:42:27,160 --> 00:42:31,360
Speaker 1: the reason why they did it anyway was for the

678
00:42:31,480 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 1: visibility of it, so that women could see that women,

679
00:42:36,440 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: especially women of color, could and should run. That if

680
00:42:40,480 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 1: we keep waiting for the time to be right for

681
00:42:42,840 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 1: someone to be electable, let's say that you're going to

682
00:42:46,080 --> 00:42:48,239
Speaker 1: be waiting until you die. Yeah, Shirley CHISHLM has the

683
00:42:48,320 --> 00:42:51,799
Speaker 1: quote it's time to make that someday come. I feel

684
00:42:51,840 --> 00:42:55,080
Speaker 1: like we should start singing. Yeah, I write a song.

685
00:42:55,120 --> 00:42:56,719
Speaker 1: I don't have a song, So I don't know if

686
00:42:56,719 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 1: that's like a super hopeful message or not. But like

687
00:42:59,400 --> 00:43:03,360
Speaker 1: with the women that we revere from history for their accomplishments,

688
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,920
Speaker 1: one thing that we discovered very quickly in actually digging

689
00:43:06,960 --> 00:43:11,200
Speaker 1: into all the things that led up to those accomplishments

690
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:15,400
Speaker 1: is that there's usually a lot of struggle and troubleshooting

691
00:43:15,520 --> 00:43:18,759
Speaker 1: and failure and trying again that comes along the way.

692
00:43:19,280 --> 00:43:21,799
Speaker 1: And that's something I have to remind myself of, Like

693
00:43:21,880 --> 00:43:23,879
Speaker 1: if we think that like all of our icons are

694
00:43:23,960 --> 00:43:26,600
Speaker 1: just these like perfect women who are able to just

695
00:43:26,680 --> 00:43:30,600
Speaker 1: go out and elbow their way into the history books,

696
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:33,640
Speaker 1: Like no, it takes. It takes work, And that's okay.

697
00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,479
Speaker 1: It takes work. It takes work. It takes, like Kristen said,

698
00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:41,440
Speaker 1: acknowledging the things that you will be up against, like sexism, racism,

699
00:43:41,600 --> 00:43:46,759
Speaker 1: the likability bs, but also understanding that there are concrete

700
00:43:47,120 --> 00:43:50,280
Speaker 1: steps that can help you build your confidence and build

701
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:52,480
Speaker 1: the people around you who can then help lift you up.

702
00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,839
Speaker 1: So making those connections being accountable. You know, I feel

703
00:43:55,840 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: like people always talk about accountability with like their New

704
00:43:57,760 --> 00:43:59,920
Speaker 1: Year's resolutions, like tell a friend, and then they're going

705
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,480
Speaker 1: guilty for it. But the same thing kind of almost

706
00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:05,120
Speaker 1: applies for running for office or you know, even if

707
00:44:05,160 --> 00:44:08,720
Speaker 1: that's like school board all the way up. Just telling

708
00:44:08,760 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 1: people that you love that you have this idea that

709
00:44:11,080 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 1: you want to do, finding people who will stand alongside you,

710
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,080
Speaker 1: starting to ask people about like would you support a

711
00:44:17,160 --> 00:44:20,239
Speaker 1: campaign if I did something like this. Just getting those

712
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 1: initial questions and connections rolling is a great place to

713
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:28,200
Speaker 1: start building your confidence. Yeah, and also just taking a

714
00:44:28,239 --> 00:44:33,680
Speaker 1: look at the hundreds of available elected offices, like you said, Caroline,

715
00:44:33,760 --> 00:44:36,640
Speaker 1: it might be school board, it might be county coroner,

716
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:38,799
Speaker 1: Like there are all different kinds of things, like we

717
00:44:38,880 --> 00:44:41,720
Speaker 1: often think of like women running for office as running

718
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:45,160
Speaker 1: for the office of the presidency, but looking at what

719
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 1: fits your skills, telling people the sooner the better to

720
00:44:48,960 --> 00:44:52,440
Speaker 1: get that accountability going. And also the good news is

721
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 1: that I do think there are so many organizations now

722
00:44:57,320 --> 00:45:01,440
Speaker 1: that have developed and strengthened to specially since twenty sixteen,

723
00:45:01,640 --> 00:45:05,480
Speaker 1: like an Emily's List in Georgia. Here there's the win List.

724
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 1: There are so many groups that are focused specifically on

725
00:45:09,239 --> 00:45:12,040
Speaker 1: getting women into office, getting women the tools that they

726
00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:16,439
Speaker 1: need to actually run a campaign. So, I mean, there's

727
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,000
Speaker 1: never been a better time to run for office if

728
00:45:19,040 --> 00:45:22,399
Speaker 1: you are a woman. And also one thing that yeh,

729
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:27,440
Speaker 1: and here we go announce that I'm running for president.

730
00:45:28,920 --> 00:45:34,320
Speaker 1: Podcast president done of this room? Wait what you don't

731
00:45:34,320 --> 00:45:40,080
Speaker 1: have my vote? Damn you're not likable, don't I know it?

732
00:45:40,680 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: No another thing I will say, so like, as you

733
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,600
Speaker 1: are doing your confidence building and you're talking to people

734
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:50,560
Speaker 1: and you're being accountable, please please, please keep in the

735
00:45:50,600 --> 00:45:55,480
Speaker 1: back of your mind just how many unqualified men are running, right,

736
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:58,640
Speaker 1: and just let that light a fire under your ass.

737
00:45:58,840 --> 00:46:02,879
Speaker 1: What motto did Lacimo leave us with? Oh what would

738
00:46:02,960 --> 00:46:06,359
Speaker 1: Chad do? Yeah? What would white Chad do? Oh? Your

739
00:46:06,360 --> 00:46:10,440
Speaker 1: poor dad? I know my dad's name is Chad. So

740
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 1: we interviewed. We interviewed Lacey Mosley, who hosts the hilarious

741
00:46:13,920 --> 00:46:18,000
Speaker 1: podcast Scam Goddess, and we asked for any advice from

742
00:46:18,000 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: her at the end of the episode, and she gave

743
00:46:19,600 --> 00:46:21,600
Speaker 1: us a couple tips, and one of them was like,

744
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:24,840
Speaker 1: lead with the confidence of a mediocre white man. What

745
00:46:24,880 --> 00:46:28,279
Speaker 1: would Chad do Chad would run for office, He'd be like,

746
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:34,600
Speaker 1: if not me? The new speaking of mottos in your

747
00:46:34,640 --> 00:46:36,960
Speaker 1: imposter syndrome, at one point you do talk about a

748
00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:40,799
Speaker 1: mantra or sayings to have to shift to a realistic perspective.

749
00:46:41,040 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: Do you have a mantra? And if so, can you share?

750
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,160
Speaker 1: So I have a new one. I'm very excited to

751
00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:50,640
Speaker 1: share this. So I go to therapy a lot, and

752
00:46:51,200 --> 00:46:54,240
Speaker 1: my therapist just introduced something to me that I literally

753
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 1: I don't do this. I mean, I have things that

754
00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:57,960
Speaker 1: I'll like repeat to myself every once in a while,

755
00:46:58,320 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: you know, as good reminders. But one thing that I've

756
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 1: saying to myself a lot is it's okay to do

757
00:47:04,840 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: what's right for you. I don't want to be gender essentialist,

758
00:47:10,400 --> 00:47:13,560
Speaker 1: but I feel like a lot of women still in

759
00:47:13,600 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: this day and age twenty twenty are, you know, putting

760
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:21,439
Speaker 1: everyone else first, and it is okay to do what's

761
00:47:21,520 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 1: right for you, whether that's asking for something or taking

762
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:27,680
Speaker 1: some sort of action. And I have been saying that

763
00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:29,960
Speaker 1: a lot because I feel like there's a lot of

764
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:33,439
Speaker 1: stuff in this world that we as women are made

765
00:47:33,480 --> 00:47:37,919
Speaker 1: to feel guilty about, shamed of when we really don't

766
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:41,240
Speaker 1: need to be carrying that guilt or shame around because

767
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 1: it's not our effing problem. Again, it's not our problem

768
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:46,880
Speaker 1: what other people think of us. So yeah, that is

769
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,000
Speaker 1: that is my current like one that I'm saying. I

770
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:54,920
Speaker 1: also think that can apply to anyone who feels like

771
00:47:55,040 --> 00:47:58,120
Speaker 1: they are not worthy of the mantle of feminism in

772
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:00,920
Speaker 1: terms of thinking of it as like all of these

773
00:48:01,560 --> 00:48:04,799
Speaker 1: rules and actions that you have to abide by, like

774
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:11,120
Speaker 1: let that go. For myself in terms of a motto,

775
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:16,920
Speaker 1: I also am deep in therapy and one of the

776
00:48:16,920 --> 00:48:20,040
Speaker 1: most important things that I have done for myself in

777
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: the past year is make a concerted effort to talk

778
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: to myself as I would a friend, because nobody can

779
00:48:30,560 --> 00:48:33,560
Speaker 1: cut me down faster than I can myself, and that

780
00:48:33,719 --> 00:48:38,600
Speaker 1: is such an easy trap to fall into, and it

781
00:48:38,640 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 1: is like so self reinforcing. Like if I'm spending all

782
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:46,799
Speaker 1: my time tearing down everything that I do, if I

783
00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:51,719
Speaker 1: can't believe in myself, who's going on? Right? I like that?

784
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:55,680
Speaker 1: Jumping into another portion of your book because that is

785
00:48:55,680 --> 00:48:58,759
Speaker 1: what I'm want to do is book club, We're going

786
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:02,520
Speaker 1: to talk more about your book. So about modesty. Yes,

787
00:49:02,840 --> 00:49:04,560
Speaker 1: And one of the things that I was hitting me.

788
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:07,279
Speaker 1: You did a whole bit about dressing modest and talking

789
00:49:07,360 --> 00:49:10,400
Speaker 1: about whether or not they feel supervocative. Did I do

790
00:49:10,440 --> 00:49:13,479
Speaker 1: this the question stage of whether it's an assault, whether

791
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:16,839
Speaker 1: it's cat calling, whether it's being ignored. Was the way

792
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:19,640
Speaker 1: I dressed or was what I look like the problem?

793
00:49:19,960 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: And this was actually a tactic once again used by

794
00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:26,279
Speaker 1: Donna Rotuno from the Harvey Weinstein case with So you

795
00:49:26,360 --> 00:49:27,920
Speaker 1: guys are familiar because we kind of spoke on this

796
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 1: on our update about attacking her, her sobriety, attacking her modesty,

797
00:49:32,520 --> 00:49:35,600
Speaker 1: attacking her just willingness to be there. Do you have

798
00:49:35,640 --> 00:49:37,840
Speaker 1: any thoughts about how to come to a point that

799
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,759
Speaker 1: we can try to end this nonsensical approach that is

800
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 1: still happening obviously in very very big and in the open.

801
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:55,640
Speaker 1: Thank you. This is what happens in the big, open open.

802
00:49:56,080 --> 00:50:00,319
Speaker 1: I don't mean to be glib about this, but it

803
00:50:00,600 --> 00:50:05,120
Speaker 1: seems so obvious to me that if we knew that

804
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:11,880
Speaker 1: a uniform of turtlenecks and baggy sweatpants had the power

805
00:50:11,920 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: to prevent sexual assault and rape and harassment, would we

806
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:21,160
Speaker 1: not all be wearing sweatpants and turtlenecks every day. It

807
00:50:21,280 --> 00:50:24,600
Speaker 1: all be walking around looking like Elizabeth Holmes? What do

808
00:50:24,640 --> 00:50:30,880
Speaker 1: you mean? Now? Do I tend to wear turtlenecks and

809
00:50:31,080 --> 00:50:35,320
Speaker 1: or sweatpants pretty much every day? Yes? I do. However

810
00:50:36,280 --> 00:50:38,279
Speaker 1: that is not the reason why. But you know what

811
00:50:38,320 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 1: I mean, Like, if modesty were as potent a force

812
00:50:42,640 --> 00:50:45,879
Speaker 1: as we are taught to believe, I mean, I very

813
00:50:45,960 --> 00:50:50,840
Speaker 1: much grew up in a modesty household. Ooh boy or

814
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:55,920
Speaker 1: should I say who? Girl? Or ooh any gender? Okay,

815
00:50:56,880 --> 00:51:00,080
Speaker 1: if it were such a potent force, Like, how how

816
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:04,480
Speaker 1: would rape culture even exist? Right? Right? Yeah? It is

817
00:51:04,480 --> 00:51:08,880
Speaker 1: something that's too deeply embedded at this moment slash throughout

818
00:51:08,880 --> 00:51:13,000
Speaker 1: history to be uprooted just by changing into a sweater.

819
00:51:13,480 --> 00:51:16,400
Speaker 1: Because when we all agree, I mean, it's it's a

820
00:51:16,440 --> 00:51:19,800
Speaker 1: widely accepted fact. I think we can say that sexual

821
00:51:19,800 --> 00:51:24,080
Speaker 1: assault and rape has existed since time immemorial, and that

822
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 1: takes into account all the different fashions that humans have

823
00:51:27,600 --> 00:51:30,920
Speaker 1: ever have ever warned and we've never no, haven't figured

824
00:51:30,960 --> 00:51:35,440
Speaker 1: out how to do that, like maybe tunics maybe, like

825
00:51:35,520 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 1: how many more like millennia do we need to understand

826
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:41,880
Speaker 1: that it's not about the clothes? Well? And also, I

827
00:51:41,880 --> 00:51:44,319
Speaker 1: mean take into account the fact that the majority of

828
00:51:44,920 --> 00:51:49,040
Speaker 1: sexual assaults occur from someone you know as someone who's

829
00:51:49,120 --> 00:51:52,719
Speaker 1: close to you, and we tend to talk about this

830
00:51:52,800 --> 00:51:54,960
Speaker 1: type of thing as like some boogeyman jumping out of

831
00:51:55,000 --> 00:51:58,160
Speaker 1: the bushes because you're wearing a short skirt, you know, like, ah,

832
00:51:58,200 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 1: I can't control myself, and it's like that, that's not

833
00:52:01,680 --> 00:52:05,759
Speaker 1: the math doesn't add up. Yeah, stranger danger is like

834
00:52:06,600 --> 00:52:10,919
Speaker 1: sort of the least of our worries. Statistically speaking, we

835
00:52:11,200 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: do have a little bit more left for you listeners,

836
00:52:13,680 --> 00:52:15,640
Speaker 1: but first we have one more quick break forward from

837
00:52:15,640 --> 00:52:32,920
Speaker 1: our sponsor and we're back. Thank you sponsor. So we

838
00:52:32,960 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 1: did want to also get with our listener emails and

839
00:52:37,280 --> 00:52:40,120
Speaker 1: listener questions, and some of them are pretty open and

840
00:52:40,120 --> 00:52:43,360
Speaker 1: broad to talk about it. These are from Instagram. So

841
00:52:43,400 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 1: these are the questions. I came from Instagram and one

842
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 1: of the Instagram followers home Sweet Bakery. Oh cool, Hi, Yes,

843
00:52:49,600 --> 00:52:54,040
Speaker 1: I know cakes delicious, Your cake delicious, most cupcakes delicious.

844
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:56,920
Speaker 1: I went and stocked who are your favorite boss ladies

845
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 1: and what makes them your favorite? Ooh, I mean definitely

846
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 1: surely Chisholm, because bring a folding chair to the table.

847
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:05,640
Speaker 1: If there's not a seat at the table, bring a

848
00:53:05,640 --> 00:53:08,440
Speaker 1: folding chair. There we go. Probably one of my favorite

849
00:53:08,440 --> 00:53:11,759
Speaker 1: boss ladies just because of that attitude. She was not

850
00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 1: gonna wait like we said earlier, she was not gonna

851
00:53:13,760 --> 00:53:15,560
Speaker 1: wait for some day to come. She was gonna make

852
00:53:15,600 --> 00:53:19,120
Speaker 1: some day happen. Now. She was also just like more

853
00:53:19,200 --> 00:53:21,640
Speaker 1: than just being like a lot of amazing talk, she

854
00:53:21,760 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: was also just an incredibly effective politician who cared so

855
00:53:26,280 --> 00:53:30,320
Speaker 1: much about the people she represented. There's nothing not to admire.

856
00:53:30,440 --> 00:53:33,640
Speaker 1: That's a double negative. And I apologize. Yeah, I mean

857
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:37,840
Speaker 1: a go to that feels really obvious, but nonetheless important

858
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:42,719
Speaker 1: is Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Yes, because not only is you know,

859
00:53:42,800 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 1: she obviously a badass on the Supreme Court, but also

860
00:53:46,640 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: just her journey to get there. I know this really

861
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:52,760
Speaker 1: has nothing to do with feminism, but I am convinced

862
00:53:52,760 --> 00:53:55,560
Speaker 1: that the woman does not need sleep. Because there was

863
00:53:55,600 --> 00:53:58,040
Speaker 1: a time when she was in law school, so was

864
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 1: her now late husband, and he got sick. I believe

865
00:54:02,600 --> 00:54:05,239
Speaker 1: he had to go through cancer treatment. He was like

866
00:54:05,640 --> 00:54:08,479
Speaker 1: down and out. She also had a baby at the time.

867
00:54:08,840 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 1: She went to classes for the both of them and

868
00:54:13,000 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 1: got them both through that period and managed to raise

869
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 1: a child and also get on the Supreme Court's she

870
00:54:20,200 --> 00:54:21,839
Speaker 1: can fit in your pocket. I can barely do all

871
00:54:21,840 --> 00:54:25,280
Speaker 1: my laundry. But Kristen tell the people about her connection

872
00:54:25,400 --> 00:54:31,200
Speaker 1: to Polly Murray. Oh okay, So one of our unladylike

873
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,720
Speaker 1: icons of the ages is a woman named Polly Murray.

874
00:54:34,800 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 1: And she was in law school a little bit before

875
00:54:38,160 --> 00:54:41,920
Speaker 1: Ruth Bader Ginsburg, and she was really sitting at the

876
00:54:41,960 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 1: intersection of gender and race, and she really sort of

877
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:52,440
Speaker 1: developed the legal foundations of what we think of as intersectionality,

878
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:55,040
Speaker 1: of realizing that there was not a space in the

879
00:54:55,120 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 1: law that took into account the discrimination that women of

880
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: color face, both as being women and being women of color,

881
00:55:03,560 --> 00:55:05,640
Speaker 1: and sort of the double jeopardy that that would put

882
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: them into. And she dedicated her life, her scholarship, her brilliance,

883
00:55:12,480 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 1: her allyship to really forging out a lot of what

884
00:55:16,320 --> 00:55:21,080
Speaker 1: would become the legal background for second wave feminism. And

885
00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:25,840
Speaker 1: Ruth Bader Ginsburg would go on to cite Polly Murray

886
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,120
Speaker 1: in the case that she argued before the Supreme Court

887
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 1: that established gender discrimination as unconstitutional for the very first time.

888
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:40,080
Speaker 1: So two amazing women, but also amazing again that Ruth

889
00:55:40,080 --> 00:55:43,360
Speaker 1: Bader Ginsburg is one of those white ladies. Yes, she

890
00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:47,520
Speaker 1: actually cited the work of a black woman who came

891
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:52,279
Speaker 1: before and established this scholarship, right, which just phenomenal. Yeah,

892
00:55:52,760 --> 00:55:55,560
Speaker 1: so he got another one from our friends patron Saints

893
00:55:55,600 --> 00:55:59,160
Speaker 1: of pop culture. What is your all time favorite feminist

894
00:55:59,160 --> 00:56:02,439
Speaker 1: movie TV sho and why? I mean? I will say

895
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:07,160
Speaker 1: Buffy the Vampire Slayer is hard to talk as far

896
00:56:07,160 --> 00:56:09,800
Speaker 1: as a TV show, Annie, I know you're a Fanily

897
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:14,400
Speaker 1: and I only watched it for the first time like

898
00:56:14,600 --> 00:56:18,919
Speaker 1: a few years ago, and it has aged well. And

899
00:56:19,680 --> 00:56:23,280
Speaker 1: I mean watching Sarah Michelle Geller like kick some vampire

900
00:56:24,080 --> 00:56:29,800
Speaker 1: boutet still gives me a lyft. This is a really

901
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:33,560
Speaker 1: weird answer. Just please roll with me. I'm gonna say

902
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:38,439
Speaker 1: Outlander Claire is like such a feminist and I love

903
00:56:38,480 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 1: how it becomes part of the culture clash of her

904
00:56:40,800 --> 00:56:46,640
Speaker 1: going back to the eighteenth century. It's a time traveling show.

905
00:56:47,040 --> 00:56:50,240
Speaker 1: Speaking of time traveling, one of my new favorite feminist

906
00:56:50,320 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 1: movies is Little Women, Greta Gerwig's Little Women. It is

907
00:56:54,239 --> 00:56:59,160
Speaker 1: a feminist reinterpretation. I was unprepared for how much I

908
00:56:59,200 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 1: was going to love it, And if you'll haven't seen it,

909
00:57:04,080 --> 00:57:09,120
Speaker 1: definitely do, and I mean shrill Sex Education is a

910
00:57:09,160 --> 00:57:12,720
Speaker 1: show on Netflix that I'm loving. In terms of books,

911
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 1: I mean there's too many. Did she ask for books? Oh? Sorry,

912
00:57:17,240 --> 00:57:23,320
Speaker 1: I mean I'll limit it to on screen media. We

913
00:57:23,360 --> 00:57:26,880
Speaker 1: only want to have one book. There's only one book,

914
00:57:26,280 --> 00:57:33,120
Speaker 1: and my favorite feminist book is unlady like promote. You're

915
00:57:33,160 --> 00:57:38,040
Speaker 1: doing this wrong. Ashley J. Sanche asked what old school

916
00:57:38,080 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 1: Sminty episode would you redo on ladylike style? Oh? Uh, colorism? Colorism, Absolutely,

917
00:57:45,480 --> 00:57:48,120
Speaker 1: that's so colorism. We we you know, we talked about

918
00:57:48,640 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 1: black women, light skin, dark skin, discrimination, all of this stuff.

919
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:56,320
Speaker 1: But the thing is when we did that episode, we

920
00:57:56,360 --> 00:58:00,439
Speaker 1: did not actually interview any black women. We talked at

921
00:58:00,440 --> 00:58:02,760
Speaker 1: the issue, we broke it down, We did our Sminty

922
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,520
Speaker 1: thing of giving the history and the context and the

923
00:58:05,560 --> 00:58:08,040
Speaker 1: explanation of it all. That was an episode where we

924
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:14,600
Speaker 1: heard from a lot of black women who were like things, Yeah,

925
00:58:14,600 --> 00:58:18,800
Speaker 1: I'm glad you're talking about it like it's important, But also,

926
00:58:19,560 --> 00:58:21,840
Speaker 1: do you maybe think it would have been better to

927
00:58:21,960 --> 00:58:25,560
Speaker 1: invite a I don't know black woman into the studio.

928
00:58:26,560 --> 00:58:28,560
Speaker 1: So yeah, and that's like to kind of jump off

929
00:58:28,600 --> 00:58:30,520
Speaker 1: that really quickly, Like that is definitely One of our

930
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 1: guiding principles of Unladylike the podcast is to bring in

931
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 1: people to tell their own stories rather than us talking

932
00:58:40,480 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 1: about other people's stories. So yeah, I would in a

933
00:58:43,080 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 1: heartbeat that would be one of one of mine. Yeah,

934
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 1: a big goal for ours with the Young Lady Like Podcast. Ironically,

935
00:58:49,840 --> 00:58:52,720
Speaker 1: question Mark is that we wanted to talk less and

936
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:58,120
Speaker 1: listen more. M what would you redo? We're going to

937
00:58:58,200 --> 00:58:59,760
Speaker 1: just go with theirs because I was like, you've got

938
00:58:59,800 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 1: one through episodes. I know more than that. Leslie wrote,

939
00:59:06,840 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 1: I love how much you fit in the book, but no,

940
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:11,680
Speaker 1: you probably had to leave a lot of information out.

941
00:59:11,680 --> 00:59:13,479
Speaker 1: How did you decide what you put in the book?

942
00:59:13,520 --> 00:59:15,880
Speaker 1: I'm currently reading it now and love it so sort

943
00:59:15,880 --> 00:59:19,400
Speaker 1: of what I asked earlier, but that is I'm sure

944
00:59:20,120 --> 00:59:23,440
Speaker 1: I how did you even start? Well? And then how

945
00:59:23,440 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 1: did you find all of the people that you put

946
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,600
Speaker 1: into highlight? How did god so many more people, so

947
00:59:28,640 --> 00:59:30,800
Speaker 1: many more people than made it into the book. That

948
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 1: was one of the first things that we did, because

949
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:38,360
Speaker 1: when we were even putting together the idea for the book,

950
00:59:39,000 --> 00:59:42,360
Speaker 1: we were thinking, like Caroline mentioned earlier, like there were

951
00:59:42,360 --> 00:59:46,760
Speaker 1: all these kind of feministy memoirs of like an Amy

952
00:59:46,800 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 1: Poll or a Tina Fame and de Kaling, but they

953
00:59:49,320 --> 00:59:52,959
Speaker 1: were just like individuals stories and we were like, well,

954
00:59:53,120 --> 00:59:56,520
Speaker 1: we have run across like so many incredible women that

955
00:59:56,560 --> 01:00:00,440
Speaker 1: I bet we could glean advice even for you know,

956
01:00:00,720 --> 01:00:04,760
Speaker 1: today's situations from them. And so one of the first

957
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 1: things that we did, because honestly it was just like

958
01:00:08,000 --> 01:00:11,640
Speaker 1: some fun homework, was let's find all of the coolest

959
01:00:11,680 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 1: women we've never heard of and put them on a

960
01:00:13,920 --> 01:00:15,840
Speaker 1: sheet and maybe we'll ride about all of them. Yep,

961
01:00:15,960 --> 01:00:18,920
Speaker 1: and we almost we almost did so. Originally the structure

962
01:00:18,920 --> 01:00:20,520
Speaker 1: of the book was that okay, yeah, you would have

963
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:23,040
Speaker 1: the individual chapters, right, but within each chapter and this

964
01:00:23,160 --> 01:00:25,080
Speaker 1: is how the book is set up. Within each chapter,

965
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:29,720
Speaker 1: there are sections of information and we were going to

966
01:00:29,760 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 1: have a bio of a person, not at the end

967
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:38,800
Speaker 1: of every chapter, but at the end of every section. Wow,

968
01:00:39,240 --> 01:00:41,920
Speaker 1: And our editor was like, are you in so how

969
01:00:41,960 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 1: many days? How many volumes? I know, it's like a

970
01:00:44,600 --> 01:00:48,960
Speaker 1: twenty six volumes set. So yeah, there are a lot

971
01:00:49,280 --> 01:00:52,680
Speaker 1: of rad women we didn't get to include. But we

972
01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:57,040
Speaker 1: have just launched a Patreon called extra unladylike where some

973
01:00:57,120 --> 01:01:00,440
Speaker 1: of our episodes are getting to tell those those women's stories,

974
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:03,360
Speaker 1: which is which is fun. Yeah. And in terms of

975
01:01:03,400 --> 01:01:06,680
Speaker 1: like deciding like what to put in there for each chapter,

976
01:01:07,160 --> 01:01:10,560
Speaker 1: something that really helped was starting with just a list

977
01:01:10,600 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 1: of questions we wanted to make sure that we answered

978
01:01:13,480 --> 01:01:18,200
Speaker 1: and everything else in addition to that, if it could fit,

979
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:24,280
Speaker 1: would just be you know, gravy, nice gravy. God, there

980
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:28,840
Speaker 1: it is. Who's cool? We carry on? You know, like

981
01:01:28,880 --> 01:01:35,520
Speaker 1: the kids say that slaps the kids say that do

982
01:01:35,600 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 1: the kids they do? I had slap bracelets as a kid.

983
01:01:41,920 --> 01:01:48,760
Speaker 1: They were very dangerous. God, I don't know. There was

984
01:01:48,760 --> 01:01:52,040
Speaker 1: a girl in first grade, Meredith. I was so jealous

985
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:55,160
Speaker 1: of her because not only did she have like really beautiful, long,

986
01:01:55,240 --> 01:01:59,280
Speaker 1: dark brown hair, but she also showed her status by

987
01:01:59,280 --> 01:02:02,680
Speaker 1: wearing slap bracelets like up her forearms. I was like,

988
01:02:02,680 --> 01:02:05,280
Speaker 1: oh my god, she has so many slap bracelets. I

989
01:02:05,280 --> 01:02:08,000
Speaker 1: bet Meredith would feel so good to like Meredith today

990
01:02:08,000 --> 01:02:11,440
Speaker 1: would be like, oh you remember me for that? Yeah,

991
01:02:11,560 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 1: slap bracelets. That's what we're talking about. That was Usn't

992
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,439
Speaker 1: that what we're always talking about is ultimate. I've never

993
01:02:18,480 --> 01:02:21,920
Speaker 1: heard of that slap so I'm very confused. Anyway, this

994
01:02:21,960 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 1: is a question from Facebook. Kathy wrote and asked how

995
01:02:25,600 --> 01:02:28,440
Speaker 1: scary was the branch out on your own? What clued

996
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:31,600
Speaker 1: you in that it was time to start unladylike? Also,

997
01:02:31,760 --> 01:02:35,240
Speaker 1: will you be my unlady like friend? Kathy? First of all, yes,

998
01:02:36,120 --> 01:02:41,040
Speaker 1: love to be your unladylike friend. The point that I

999
01:02:41,120 --> 01:02:43,560
Speaker 1: knew that it was time to go was I had

1000
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:47,000
Speaker 1: reached a point when I was itching for more kind

1001
01:02:47,040 --> 01:02:50,920
Speaker 1: of of a creative sandbox in terms of the podcast,

1002
01:02:51,200 --> 01:02:54,480
Speaker 1: because by that point Caroline and I had literally recorded

1003
01:02:54,480 --> 01:02:57,320
Speaker 1: like hundreds of episodes where it was I don't want

1004
01:02:57,320 --> 01:03:01,320
Speaker 1: to say just us, but it was us like talk

1005
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:05,040
Speaker 1: having discussions amongst ourselves about all of these topics, and

1006
01:03:06,240 --> 01:03:08,760
Speaker 1: as stuff Mo've never told you was kind of getting

1007
01:03:08,760 --> 01:03:12,000
Speaker 1: off the ground in those early years, like the podcast

1008
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:15,400
Speaker 1: universe at large was also developing, and people were kind

1009
01:03:15,400 --> 01:03:19,160
Speaker 1: of branching off and doing interesting things with audio. So

1010
01:03:20,080 --> 01:03:23,280
Speaker 1: on the one hand, it was a desire to just

1011
01:03:23,600 --> 01:03:28,880
Speaker 1: flex our creative muscles and see if we could tell

1012
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:34,840
Speaker 1: stories about feminism and gender in new sorts of ways

1013
01:03:35,360 --> 01:03:39,640
Speaker 1: and reach new listeners that we otherwise could not as

1014
01:03:39,720 --> 01:03:43,000
Speaker 1: long as we were to sis straight white women talking

1015
01:03:43,000 --> 01:03:47,680
Speaker 1: to each other. Yeah, and also you got really inspired

1016
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:50,080
Speaker 1: when you went to a women's podcasting conference and just

1017
01:03:50,640 --> 01:03:54,560
Speaker 1: frankly saw the possibilities out in the universe for how

1018
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 1: to play in that sandbox and just sort of what

1019
01:03:57,440 --> 01:04:01,880
Speaker 1: the possibilities were creatively, at acatorially all of it. And

1020
01:04:02,560 --> 01:04:07,040
Speaker 1: when we got the book deal, that is ultimately what

1021
01:04:07,280 --> 01:04:12,600
Speaker 1: enabled us to leave our day jobs and start on

1022
01:04:12,760 --> 01:04:17,080
Speaker 1: Ladylike Media the company, and so we had a little

1023
01:04:17,080 --> 01:04:19,600
Speaker 1: bit of cash in the bank, and ultimately that is

1024
01:04:19,680 --> 01:04:21,760
Speaker 1: what allowed us to pursue it. You know, if we

1025
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 1: didn't have if we didn't have that financial boon, it

1026
01:04:26,360 --> 01:04:29,440
Speaker 1: would have been a lot harder to step out. And

1027
01:04:29,520 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 1: so while there was fear and you know, a little

1028
01:04:32,640 --> 01:04:35,480
Speaker 1: bit of imposter syndrome, a little bit of concern, ultimately

1029
01:04:35,520 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 1: we were like, we have to do this. We have

1030
01:04:38,240 --> 01:04:42,000
Speaker 1: to be able to walk the walk and do what

1031
01:04:42,000 --> 01:04:44,720
Speaker 1: we've been encouraging our own audience to do, which is

1032
01:04:44,880 --> 01:04:48,920
Speaker 1: own your stuff, claim your space, get what you deserve.

1033
01:04:49,560 --> 01:04:53,320
Speaker 1: And that made it a lot easier to then step out.

1034
01:04:53,600 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 1: And I think some important context too, is that you

1035
01:04:56,560 --> 01:04:59,520
Speaker 1: and I did not set out to become podcasters, like

1036
01:04:59,560 --> 01:05:03,560
Speaker 1: they didn't even exist when we were in high school.

1037
01:05:04,200 --> 01:05:08,880
Speaker 1: This was something an opportunity that I feel super fortunate

1038
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:12,800
Speaker 1: that it became a part of my job because after

1039
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 1: I started how stuff works, then podcasting became a thing

1040
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 1: and it became an opportunity that I could step into.

1041
01:05:19,280 --> 01:05:23,280
Speaker 1: But once we were in the space for a while

1042
01:05:23,280 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 1: and kind of had like our wherewithal, it was kind

1043
01:05:25,680 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 1: of the first time that I know, for myself personally,

1044
01:05:29,000 --> 01:05:31,600
Speaker 1: like it was the first time that I set my

1045
01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:33,720
Speaker 1: sight on something. I don't know. I don't want to

1046
01:05:33,760 --> 01:05:35,200
Speaker 1: say it was the first time I had a dream.

1047
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:40,280
Speaker 1: But I'd always played my life pretty safe. I never

1048
01:05:40,520 --> 01:05:43,920
Speaker 1: envisioned myself not only like in the podcasting space, but

1049
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:48,040
Speaker 1: just in the self employment space, like that seemed what

1050
01:05:48,040 --> 01:05:52,760
Speaker 1: what am I doing? But the timing just felt just

1051
01:05:52,800 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 1: felt right and also too, I mean, leading up to

1052
01:05:55,840 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 1: all of that, the Internet in twenty sixteen, leading up

1053
01:06:00,560 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 1: to that election was such a dumpster fire that I

1054
01:06:05,080 --> 01:06:08,640
Speaker 1: coasted just on rage for a good six months. I mean,

1055
01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:11,560
Speaker 1: I wasn't scared of leaving. I was just like, oh, yeah,

1056
01:06:11,600 --> 01:06:13,880
Speaker 1: we're going to do this. So she was the kool

1057
01:06:13,880 --> 01:06:16,720
Speaker 1: aid man. I was the kool aid man. I kool

1058
01:06:16,760 --> 01:06:18,880
Speaker 1: aid faked it till I made it, and by that

1059
01:06:19,160 --> 01:06:22,560
Speaker 1: I made it into my therapist office. He smashed through

1060
01:06:22,560 --> 01:06:24,840
Speaker 1: the wall of the office and left. Yeah, it was

1061
01:06:24,880 --> 01:06:28,880
Speaker 1: it was once we were then actually in the process

1062
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:34,440
Speaker 1: of developing a new podcast, establishing a new business and brand,

1063
01:06:34,640 --> 01:06:36,880
Speaker 1: and writing a book all at the same time, and

1064
01:06:36,920 --> 01:06:41,280
Speaker 1: also like attempting to like have a life beyond that

1065
01:06:41,800 --> 01:06:44,920
Speaker 1: when it started to actually get scary. And I'm so

1066
01:06:45,040 --> 01:06:47,320
Speaker 1: glad that it took a while for the fear to

1067
01:06:47,360 --> 01:06:51,400
Speaker 1: come because if oh, yeah, it hadn't you know, like

1068
01:06:51,440 --> 01:06:53,400
Speaker 1: you've never would have happened, Right, if we had known

1069
01:06:53,440 --> 01:06:56,520
Speaker 1: what we were in for, Like, the rewards have been

1070
01:06:56,560 --> 01:06:59,720
Speaker 1: great in terms of being able to create this brand, right,

1071
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:02,160
Speaker 1: the book, all of this wonderful stuff, create a community

1072
01:07:02,200 --> 01:07:04,640
Speaker 1: around what we're doing. But yeah, if we had had

1073
01:07:04,720 --> 01:07:09,640
Speaker 1: an inkling of how intense it would be, it would

1074
01:07:09,640 --> 01:07:12,760
Speaker 1: have been I think harder to make that leap. Yeah,

1075
01:07:13,600 --> 01:07:16,840
Speaker 1: So timing was perfect, timing it was the best of times.

1076
01:07:16,840 --> 01:07:23,160
Speaker 1: It was the worst of times. That's fair. Well, I'm

1077
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:25,520
Speaker 1: so thrilled that we could have both of you here

1078
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:29,640
Speaker 1: to do this because you've been inspirations for us and

1079
01:07:29,680 --> 01:07:32,640
Speaker 1: I know for a lot of listeners, and we're so

1080
01:07:32,720 --> 01:07:35,880
Speaker 1: eager to see what you continue to do. Hopefully collaborate more.

1081
01:07:36,480 --> 01:07:39,000
Speaker 1: Any listeners who haven't read the book, please do it,

1082
01:07:39,080 --> 01:07:44,440
Speaker 1: because it's well written, real researched, and it's just like,

1083
01:07:44,480 --> 01:07:46,600
Speaker 1: I don't know how to It's hard to envision a

1084
01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:50,960
Speaker 1: book that is about so much like intersectionality and feminism,

1085
01:07:50,960 --> 01:07:53,800
Speaker 1: all these things that we sort of don't really like

1086
01:07:53,920 --> 01:07:56,360
Speaker 1: having to deal with. I don't know it was I

1087
01:07:56,800 --> 01:08:01,360
Speaker 1: read it, and I loved it. I keep handing mine out,

1088
01:08:01,360 --> 01:08:03,680
Speaker 1: Caroline Yellow. Yeah, so I would buy them and then

1089
01:08:03,760 --> 01:08:05,800
Speaker 1: handed out and be like I'd buy another one handed out. Yes,

1090
01:08:05,800 --> 01:08:09,280
Speaker 1: Samantha kept giving it away, and so Samantha, JESU this book.

1091
01:08:09,360 --> 01:08:13,600
Speaker 1: I want you to read what I inscribed out loud,

1092
01:08:13,360 --> 01:08:15,520
Speaker 1: so it has to be bleeved for sure. This says,

1093
01:08:15,560 --> 01:08:19,320
Speaker 1: this belongs to Samantha, very large capital letters. Don't give

1094
01:08:19,320 --> 01:08:23,479
Speaker 1: this away, asked love Caroline. That's about right, So she

1095
01:08:23,640 --> 01:08:27,200
Speaker 1: wants I told her I did it because Annie kind

1096
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:30,040
Speaker 1: of did the same thing. Loaned it, and I was like, hey,

1097
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 1: we need to we're gonna get all things together. She's like,

1098
01:08:33,280 --> 01:08:36,120
Speaker 1: do I need inscribe, Frany. I'm like, you mighty have to,

1099
01:08:36,280 --> 01:08:39,080
Speaker 1: because I can't give mine handy. I can't give mine

1100
01:08:39,120 --> 01:08:42,160
Speaker 1: away give this is gonna be a really awkward exchange.

1101
01:08:42,880 --> 01:08:46,240
Speaker 1: But also for those out there who are wanting an

1102
01:08:46,280 --> 01:08:50,800
Speaker 1: introduction to what feminism looks like today and why intersectionality

1103
01:08:50,920 --> 01:08:54,120
Speaker 1: is important, this is a great book. I've given it

1104
01:08:54,160 --> 01:08:58,519
Speaker 1: away to teenagers and younger people because I think it's

1105
01:08:58,520 --> 01:09:01,040
Speaker 1: a fantastic guide. As you said that we never had

1106
01:09:01,360 --> 01:09:03,040
Speaker 1: things that we had to guess and then try to

1107
01:09:03,080 --> 01:09:06,280
Speaker 1: figure out what feminism really meant instead of the big

1108
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:09,480
Speaker 1: bad F word. And I think this is a fantastic,

1109
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:14,000
Speaker 1: fantastic book to get to everyone, male, female, non binary,

1110
01:09:14,120 --> 01:09:17,400
Speaker 1: young old. Give it to them. Thank you Soman much

1111
01:09:17,520 --> 01:09:19,920
Speaker 1: and and you know what, I'm also really glad that

1112
01:09:20,000 --> 01:09:24,320
Speaker 1: we ended up taking the unlady like leap, because otherwise

1113
01:09:24,320 --> 01:09:26,000
Speaker 1: we wouldn't be sitting here at the table talking to

1114
01:09:26,080 --> 01:09:28,880
Speaker 1: these amazing co hos so stuff. I've never told you.

1115
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:39,639
Speaker 1: You know, we love you. It's mutual, I heard, But well,

1116
01:09:39,640 --> 01:09:45,000
Speaker 1: this seems like the best finally making book club happening

1117
01:09:45,400 --> 01:09:48,800
Speaker 1: having you here. Thank you? Where can listeners find you?

1118
01:09:48,840 --> 01:09:52,439
Speaker 1: Do you have anything? I know you do? Exciting coming out? Yes,

1119
01:09:53,840 --> 01:09:56,960
Speaker 1: it's hitting the road. We're doing an East Coast tour.

1120
01:09:57,360 --> 01:10:00,720
Speaker 1: Tickets around sale. It's in April. Doing an East kicks

1121
01:10:00,760 --> 01:10:04,599
Speaker 1: off April twenty six in Chicago. Call It kicks off

1122
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:08,280
Speaker 1: April twenty second in Chicago at Lincoln Hall, where we

1123
01:10:08,360 --> 01:10:11,960
Speaker 1: will be meeting face to face for the very first time,

1124
01:10:12,000 --> 01:10:15,360
Speaker 1: the one and only Unladylike illustrator Tyler Fetter. Yeah, it's

1125
01:10:15,479 --> 01:10:18,800
Speaker 1: very exciting. It's like the biggest blind date of my life.

1126
01:10:19,680 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 1: It's going to be amazing. I hope we love it.

1127
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:24,000
Speaker 1: Hope she likes us. I know that's a good question,

1128
01:10:24,720 --> 01:10:28,320
Speaker 1: but yeah. You can definitely follow us at Unladylike Media

1129
01:10:28,400 --> 01:10:31,320
Speaker 1: on all of the social media's. If you want to

1130
01:10:31,320 --> 01:10:35,040
Speaker 1: write us a love letter, it's hello at Unladylike dot co.

1131
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:37,880
Speaker 1: We also have a private Facebook group because we're cool

1132
01:10:38,000 --> 01:10:41,360
Speaker 1: like that. And uh yeah, you can go to patreon

1133
01:10:41,560 --> 01:10:47,320
Speaker 1: dot com slash Unladylike Media to directly support us. Thanks

1134
01:10:47,320 --> 01:10:49,559
Speaker 1: so much for having us. Thanks you all, fun y'all

1135
01:10:50,240 --> 01:10:55,559
Speaker 1: for coming in. We're at the end of our first

1136
01:10:56,040 --> 01:10:58,920
Speaker 1: our first book club. Yeah we did it. Hey, we

1137
01:10:58,960 --> 01:11:01,840
Speaker 1: did it, and thanks everybody who sends in questions. That

1138
01:11:01,960 --> 01:11:05,240
Speaker 1: was really awesome. In the future, we're hoping to maybe

1139
01:11:05,240 --> 01:11:09,200
Speaker 1: have like an interactive wine or non alcoholic drinking part

1140
01:11:09,240 --> 01:11:13,439
Speaker 1: of this. Yes, yeah, you know, cocktail, Yeah, in a cocktail, yes,

1141
01:11:14,240 --> 01:11:18,599
Speaker 1: or one or the other exactly exactly, yes, but we

1142
01:11:18,720 --> 01:11:23,000
Speaker 1: really need you to send in your suggestions. Send in suggestions,

1143
01:11:23,000 --> 01:11:24,720
Speaker 1: and then when we start talking about the fact that

1144
01:11:24,760 --> 01:11:27,200
Speaker 1: we're going to do it, send us questions. Be a

1145
01:11:27,240 --> 01:11:29,240
Speaker 1: part of that. We want you to give us opinions

1146
01:11:29,240 --> 01:11:32,400
Speaker 1: because it's probably better than what we have, or at

1147
01:11:32,479 --> 01:11:34,880
Speaker 1: least it will add to well, okay, yeah, yeah. And

1148
01:11:34,960 --> 01:11:37,840
Speaker 1: also just if you are there specific tropes or themes

1149
01:11:37,880 --> 01:11:41,920
Speaker 1: you want us to dive into with these these books,

1150
01:11:41,960 --> 01:11:45,280
Speaker 1: because otherwise, Samantha knows, I might just read my fan

1151
01:11:45,320 --> 01:11:49,400
Speaker 1: fiction and you don't want that. And you can email

1152
01:11:49,680 --> 01:11:53,800
Speaker 1: any of those questions, suggestions thoughts to Stuff Media mom

1153
01:11:53,840 --> 01:11:56,920
Speaker 1: Stuff at iHeartMedia dot com. You can also find us

1154
01:11:56,960 --> 01:11:59,680
Speaker 1: on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You and on

1155
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:02,680
Speaker 1: Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to our

1156
01:12:02,720 --> 01:12:06,760
Speaker 1: super producer and Drew Howard, and thanks to you for

1157
01:12:06,840 --> 01:12:09,440
Speaker 1: listening Stuff I've Never Told You. The production of Iheartradios

1158
01:12:09,439 --> 01:12:11,800
Speaker 1: how Stuff works for more podcasts from iHeartRadio, was the

1159
01:12:11,840 --> 01:12:14,519
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever you listen to your

1160
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:15,480
Speaker 1: favorite shows,