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Speaker 1: Next Question with Katie Curic is a production of I

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Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Katie Kuric Media. Hi everyone, I'm Katie

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Speaker 1: Curic and welcome to Next Question Today civil rights lawyer

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Speaker 1: and activist Brian Stevenson of the Equal Justice Initiative. If

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Speaker 1: I've had any impact as a lawyer, if I've helped

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Speaker 1: anybody during my legal career, if I've made a difference

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Speaker 1: of representing my clients, it's not because I'm hard working,

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Speaker 1: it's not because I'm smart or anything like that. It's

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Speaker 1: because I got proximate to a condemned man and heard

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Speaker 1: him sing about higher ground. And that's why I talked

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Speaker 1: about proximity, because I think there's power when we get

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Speaker 1: close to the poor and excluded in the condemned. There's knowledge,

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Speaker 1: there's wisdom, there's insight, there's inspiration, there are portals that

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Speaker 1: can change the world. And later I'll speak with the

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Speaker 1: man who plays Brian in the new movie Just Mercy,

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Speaker 1: Michael b Jordan's and Jamie Fox, who portrays the client

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Speaker 1: whose case put Brian Stevenson on the map. Brian Stevenson

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Speaker 1: has been fighting this fight in the shadows for years,

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Speaker 1: so that's why this movie is so important. My next question,

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Speaker 1: what made the real Brian Stevenson the man he is today.

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Speaker 1: I recently had the privilege of interviewing Brian, one of

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Speaker 1: my personal heroes, at a dinner for the Aspen Institute

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Speaker 1: in New York City. Hi, everyone, good evening, It's such

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Speaker 1: an I began by asking him about his childhood. He

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Speaker 1: grew up in a small rural town in southern Delaware, poor,

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Speaker 1: isolated and marginalized, but surrounded by family that taught him

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Speaker 1: the values that have guided him his entire life. I

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Speaker 1: was born at the end of the Jim Crow era,

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Speaker 1: but you could still see the signs that said white

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Speaker 1: and color. And I watched my parents trying to shield

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Speaker 1: me from that. I mean, we don't realize that that

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Speaker 1: signage wasn't They weren't directions, They were actually assaults. They

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Speaker 1: created real injuries. My parents were humiliated every day of

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Speaker 1: their lives, and yet they had enough hope that they

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Speaker 1: actually believed that they could raise us to enter a

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Speaker 1: world that would be better and more just. And I

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Speaker 1: think it was that sense that you have to believe

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Speaker 1: things you haven't seen that I was constantly being taught.

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Speaker 1: You know, I was a young person and I became

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Speaker 1: a church musician, and when I first started to play,

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Speaker 1: you know, they didn't want me to play during the services.

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Speaker 1: I had to play during the testimonial and people would

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Speaker 1: come in and they'd give their testimonies, and sometimes they'd

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Speaker 1: say these heartbreaking they tell these heartbreaking stories about what

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Speaker 1: had happened. They didn't have a food to feed their family,

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Speaker 1: or something had happened and something terrible. But during those

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Speaker 1: testimony services, they would always in their testimony by starting

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Speaker 1: to sing a song. They'd start singing something like wouldn't

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Speaker 1: take nothing for my journey now, And there was this

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Speaker 1: hopefulness And I think for me, that has been the

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Speaker 1: greatest gift. I live in Montgomery, Alabama now, and I

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Speaker 1: think about the people who were there sixty years ago

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Speaker 1: trying to do what I do, and I realized I'm

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Speaker 1: standing on their shoulders, and they did so much more,

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Speaker 1: so much less. One of the people who did so

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Speaker 1: much more was so much less was Brian's grandmother, a

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Speaker 1: woman who was born in the eighteen eighties in Virginia,

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Speaker 1: who had ten children and was the matriarch of the family.

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Speaker 1: She was tough and strong, but Brian says her love

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Speaker 1: was so expansive that she had a way of making

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Speaker 1: each of her grandchildren feel special and seen. My grandmother

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Speaker 1: was the daughter of people who were enslaved. Her parents

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Speaker 1: were born in slavery. My great grandfather learned to read

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Speaker 1: as an enslaved person, even though he knew he might

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Speaker 1: be sold or even injured, because he had that skill.

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Speaker 1: And she would talk about how when emancipation came, all

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Speaker 1: of the uh formerly enslaved people would come to their

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Speaker 1: house and he would read the newspaper every night, and

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Speaker 1: she would sit next to him, and she would be

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Speaker 1: so proud that he had that ability. And even though

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Speaker 1: she couldn't go to school, she learned to read, and

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Speaker 1: she taught her daughter, my mom, how to read. And

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Speaker 1: we were poor and we didn't always have the things

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Speaker 1: that we needed. But my mother went into debt to

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Speaker 1: buy the World Book Encyclopedia because she wanted us to

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Speaker 1: have this entry into the world. And when you see

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Speaker 1: people making those kinds of sacrifices, affirming those kinds of values,

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Speaker 1: it sustained you. It energizes you. And then the last thing,

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Speaker 1: my my, I feel really fortunate to have been given

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Speaker 1: was a commitment to loving people. My my, my grandmother

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Speaker 1: told me, always stay on the side of love, even

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Speaker 1: when people treat you bad, even when people hate you,

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Speaker 1: even when people mistreat you. You have to stay on

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Speaker 1: the side of love because once you leave the side

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Speaker 1: of love, you give away the most important parts of yourself.

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Speaker 1: You become vulnerable to all of those emotions that will

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Speaker 1: destroy you. So you have to stay on the side

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Speaker 1: of love. My people, my parents, my grandparents, despite the

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Speaker 1: brutality and the mistreatment, didn't hate anybody. And it's a

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Speaker 1: precious gift that they have given me. And I've tried

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Speaker 1: to hold on to that gift, and it's the gift

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Speaker 1: I want to give to my clients and the people

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Speaker 1: I work with, and it has very much centered the

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Speaker 1: work that I've done throughout my career. So both hope

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Speaker 1: and love, hope and law. Yeah, and you would think

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Speaker 1: that a little eight year old Brian Stevenson knew he

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Speaker 1: wanted to be a public interest lawyer, you know, but

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Speaker 1: you didn't actually figure that out for quite a while.

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Speaker 1: You went to Harvard Law School, but you weren't particularly

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Speaker 1: jazzed about going and once you got there, you really

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Speaker 1: felt like an outsider. So at what point did you

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Speaker 1: feel like this is my calling, this is where I'm

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Speaker 1: going to commit my time and energy. Yeah, I mean

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Speaker 1: it was funny. I was so excited because nobody in

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Speaker 1: my family had gone to college. I was so excited

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Speaker 1: just to be in college, and I didn't think much

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Speaker 1: about what came next. And I was a philosophy major.

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Speaker 1: And it was really at the beginning of my senior

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Speaker 1: year that somebody came up to me and said, you know,

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Speaker 1: nobody is going to pay you to philosophize when you

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Speaker 1: graduated from college. And to be honest, that's how I

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Speaker 1: found my way to law school. It was very clear

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Speaker 1: to me, you don't need to know anything to go

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Speaker 1: to law school, you know. Uh, And so I signed

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Speaker 1: up for that. But I didn't have a real appreciation

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Speaker 1: of what lawyers did. I didn't I'd never met a

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Speaker 1: lawyer until I got to law school. And it was

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Speaker 1: very disoriented because I was concerned about racial inequality and

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Speaker 1: social injustice, and it just didn't feel connected to the

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Speaker 1: things I cared about, and I was really in the

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Speaker 1: middle of this kind of existential angst. Everything changed in

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Speaker 1: when Brian took a course that required him to spend

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Speaker 1: a month with a human rights organization providing legal services

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Speaker 1: to people on death row. He headed down to Atlanta

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Speaker 1: and into the prison system, and it was that experience

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Speaker 1: that really became transformative. I I went to death row,

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Speaker 1: I met people literally dying for legal assistance, and I

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Speaker 1: write about this in my book. The first person I

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Speaker 1: met was this condemned man. I had just been sent

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Speaker 1: down there to tell him that he wasn't at risk

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Speaker 1: of execution. And when this man came into the room,

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Speaker 1: he was burdened with change. He had handcuffs on his wrist,

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Speaker 1: he had a chain around his waist, he had shackles

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Speaker 1: on his ankles, and by the time they unchained him,

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Speaker 1: I was so nervous. I just started apologizing and I said,

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Speaker 1: I'm so sorry. I'm just a law student. I don't

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Speaker 1: know anything about the death mod And I finally said,

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Speaker 1: but I'm here because you're not at risk of execution

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Speaker 1: any time in the next year. And he was so

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Speaker 1: stunned by that statement. He said, wait, say that again.

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Speaker 1: And I said, you're not at risk of execution any

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Speaker 1: time in the next year. And then he said, wait, wait, wait, wait,

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Speaker 1: say that again. I said, you're not at risk of

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Speaker 1: execution any time in the next year. And this man

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Speaker 1: grabbed my hands and he said, thank you, thank you,

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Speaker 1: thank you. Said, you are the first person I've met

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Speaker 1: in the two years i've been on death row who's

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Speaker 1: not a death row prisoner or a death row guard.

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Speaker 1: He said, I've been talking to my wife and my kids,

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Speaker 1: but I haven't let them come and visit because I

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Speaker 1: was afraid i'd have an execution date. He said, now,

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Speaker 1: because of you, I'm going to see my wife. I'm

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Speaker 1: going to see my kids. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

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Speaker 1: And I couldn't believe how, even in my ignorance, being

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Speaker 1: proximate to that man was so transformative. And we started talking.

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Speaker 1: And one hour turned into two hours, and two hours

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Speaker 1: turned into three hours, and the guards were waiting for

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Speaker 1: me to finish, and they got angry that I didn't

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Speaker 1: finish the visit after an hour, and they came bursting

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Speaker 1: into the room and they couldn't do anything to me,

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Speaker 1: but they were mad. And they threw this man against

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Speaker 1: the wall and they pulled his arms back and they

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Speaker 1: put the handcuffs on his wrist so tightly I could

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Speaker 1: see the metal pinching his skin. They wrapped the chain

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Speaker 1: around his waist. They put the shackles on his ankles.

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Speaker 1: They were treating him so roughly, and I begged them

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Speaker 1: to be gentler, but they ignored me, and they pushed

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Speaker 1: the man near the door. And when he got near

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Speaker 1: the door, I saw this condemnment planted his feet. And

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Speaker 1: when he planted his feet and the guards tried to

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Speaker 1: shove him, he didn't move. And that's when this man

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Speaker 1: looked at me and he said, Brian, don't you worry

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Speaker 1: about this, You just come back. And then that man

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Speaker 1: did something I've never forgotten. He stood there and he

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Speaker 1: closed his eyes and he threw his head back and

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Speaker 1: he started to sing, and he started singing as hymn

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Speaker 1: I hadn't heard. He started singing, I'm pressing on the

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Speaker 1: upward way, new heights, time gaining every day, still praying

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Speaker 1: as I'm onward bound. And then he said, Lord, plant

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Speaker 1: my feet on higher ground. And everybody stopped. The guards recovered.

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Speaker 1: They started pushing him down the hall way, and you

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Speaker 1: could hear the change claiming, but you could hear this

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Speaker 1: man singing about higher ground. And when I heard that

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Speaker 1: man sing, everything changed for me. That was the moment

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Speaker 1: that I knew I wanted to help condemned people get

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Speaker 1: to higher ground. But more than that, I knew that

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Speaker 1: my journey to higher ground was tied to his. And

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Speaker 1: I went back to Harvard Law School completely radicalized. You

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Speaker 1: couldn't get me out of the law school library. I

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Speaker 1: needed to know everything about federalism and comedy and the

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Speaker 1: doctor in the jurisprudence. And that's how it happened for me.

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Speaker 1: I went to death Row and I met a condemned

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Speaker 1: man and he sang to me, and it changed my orientation,

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Speaker 1: It changed my path, it changed my life. Let's talk

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Speaker 1: about Just Mercy just for a moment, because it's coming

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Speaker 1: out on December, and of course that is the case

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Speaker 1: at the center of the your two thousand fourteen book,

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Speaker 1: when you defended Walter McMillan played I think so incredibly.

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Speaker 1: I was lucky enough to see the film Jamie Fox,

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Speaker 1: and I thought he did an amazing job. Michael B.

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Speaker 1: Jordan of course plays you. How weird was that to

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Speaker 1: watch that? It's pretty weird? Um, you know, I'm just

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Speaker 1: I'm really I feel really good about the film. I

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Speaker 1: was very apprehensive because Hollywood oftentimes will take a story

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Speaker 1: and they'll do something formulaic, and I didn't want that

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Speaker 1: to happen. But Michael B who's a producer on the film,

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Speaker 1: was really committed to doing it right. The director, Deston

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Speaker 1: Creton was also committed, and the whole cast came together

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Speaker 1: and we're really committed to doing this in a way

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Speaker 1: that would honor the people that I've represented. And they

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Speaker 1: really put their heart into it, and I feel really

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Speaker 1: good about the film. Why are you doing this? Why

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Speaker 1: am my lawyer? I don't know why? As you lowering

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Speaker 1: it down here in Alabama taking these cases that ain't

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Speaker 1: nobody gonna pay you for. When I was a teenager,

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Speaker 1: my grandfather was murdering over a black and white TV.

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Speaker 1: And that's when I realized that outside my community, nobody

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Speaker 1: cared because to them, he's just another black man killed

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Speaker 1: in the projects. I know what it's like to be

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Speaker 1: in the shadows. It is surreal, uh, to to have

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Speaker 1: a film come out and and and Michael B is

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Speaker 1: obviously so so popular and so wonderful, and and he

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Speaker 1: was very committed. We spent a lot of time together

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Speaker 1: and I just wanted to do everything he could to

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Speaker 1: get it right. And he asked me, is that, Is

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Speaker 1: there anything I need to do to kind of get ready?

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Speaker 1: I said, no, you've got it. I said, there's just

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Speaker 1: one thing you don't need to do. And I told

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Speaker 1: him the one thing you don't need to do is

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Speaker 1: to lose the black panther creed body when you play me. Uh. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you should keep don't go on a lawyer diet, don't

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Speaker 1: try to you know. Uh and so uh and so

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Speaker 1: I appreciate him holding on to all of those assets

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Speaker 1: that he brings his other roles. Uh. But no, it's

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Speaker 1: it's been great and I'm really excited for people to

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Speaker 1: see the film, and for me, it's just a way

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Speaker 1: of getting people exposed to these issues. I've always believed

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Speaker 1: that if people saw what I see on a regular basis,

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Speaker 1: they would respond the same way. And I when you

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Speaker 1: see unfairness and abuse in this conduct, people have an

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Speaker 1: instinct to respond to that. We just have not been

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Speaker 1: exposed to it, and I hope the film changes that.

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Speaker 1: It is a case study and persistence. When you represented

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Speaker 1: Walter McMillan, I mean it was years of injustice that

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Speaker 1: he had to deal with, and and of all places, Monroeville, Alabama,

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Speaker 1: the birth where Harperle and Truman Capode grew up. Of course,

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Speaker 1: the setting for To Kill a mocking Bird that must

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Speaker 1: have been strange too. It is and I think one

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Speaker 1: of the reason why I focused on that case in

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Speaker 1: the book because I do think there's an irony in

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Speaker 1: the way we tell stories about who we are, and

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Speaker 1: there's a disconnect. And people love the story of To

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Speaker 1: Kill a mocking it's a beautiful book, and yet and yet, uh,

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Speaker 1: there's a truth that we haven't dealt with. You know,

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Speaker 1: the character in that story, Tom Robinson, dies of hopelessness.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't get justice. And we probably have about two

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Speaker 1: hundred awards in this country that are named after the

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Speaker 1: fictional lawyer Atticus Finch. And the question becomes, what are

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Speaker 1: we celebrating because we didn't achieve justice for the poor,

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Speaker 1: We didn't achieve justice for the person who was condemned.

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Speaker 1: And it's not enough to just try in a world

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Speaker 1: where justice requires something more. And I think that's the disconnect.

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Speaker 1: And when I went to Monroeville and started working on

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Speaker 1: this case, everybody would say, oh, have you been to

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Speaker 1: the Killa mocking Bird Museum? And I would say, well, no,

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Speaker 1: I haven't had time because I'm representing this innocent black

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Speaker 1: man who's been wrongly convicted in this facing execution and

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Speaker 1: I'm trying to help him. And they said, well, you

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Speaker 1: need to go to the Dikilamdian Bird Museum. And we

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Speaker 1: have romanticized that story. While we have tolerated a criminal

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Speaker 1: justice system that treats you better if you're rich and

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Speaker 1: guilty then if you're poor and innocent, we have tolerated

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Speaker 1: racial bias, while we have celebrated this fictional characters resistance

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Speaker 1: to some of that bias, but not their effectiveness and

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Speaker 1: confern that bias and breaking down that kind of romanticized

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Speaker 1: narrative and actually engaging with the actual story for me

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Speaker 1: has been really important because we won't get to justice

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Speaker 1: if we live in this fantasy world, in this romanticized

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Speaker 1: world that is so evident in many places in this country.

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Speaker 1: When we come back the actual story of Walter McMillan,

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Speaker 1: as told in the new film Just Mercy, we'll talk

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Speaker 1: with Jamie Fox and Michael B. Jordan's. The movie Just

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Speaker 1: Mercy is based on Brian Stephenson's memoir. It tells the

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Speaker 1: story of a black man in Alabama named Walter McMillan,

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Speaker 1: wrongfully convicted of killing a white woman he didn't know

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Speaker 1: in a town he'd never been to. Despite the egregious

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Speaker 1: lack of evidence, in McMillan was sentenced to death risk

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Speaker 1: one from Harp. You don't know what it is, and

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Speaker 1: you're guilty from the moment you're borne. And you can

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Speaker 1: buddy up with these white folks and make him laugh

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Speaker 1: and try to make him like you whatever that is,

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Speaker 1: and he say, yes, no man, But when it's your turn,

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Speaker 1: they ain't got to have no fingerprints, no where evidence

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Speaker 1: and all the witness that God the whole thing up,

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Speaker 1: and none of that matter. When all y'all think is

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Speaker 1: is that look like a man who could kill somebody.

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Speaker 1: Walter McMillan is played by Jamie Fox. It's so familiar

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Speaker 1: because as as black man, the perception of us is, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he probably did it so easily. He's put on death

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Speaker 1: row with no trial. And there he sits in a

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Speaker 1: hopeless place because I visited death row before for another movie,

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Speaker 1: and the worst thing you can give a person and

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Speaker 1: death row is is hope. And there he sits, and

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Speaker 1: as he sits, all of a sudden, he doesn't know

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Speaker 1: it at the time, but his Angel walks in and

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Speaker 1: as Brian Stevenson, played wonderfully by Michael B. Jordan in

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Speaker 1: the movie and Uh, they set out to do something remarkable.

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Speaker 1: Michael B. Jordan not only plays Brian Stevenson, the lawyer

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Speaker 1: who successfully overturned Walter McMillan's death sentence, but he's also

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Speaker 1: a producer on the film and had a big hand

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Speaker 1: in getting it financed. As a black man in America,

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Speaker 1: I thought it was really important to be involved at

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Speaker 1: the story. Learning about Brian Stevenson at such a late age,

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Speaker 1: I felt I was shocked that he wasn't more of

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Speaker 1: a household name. When I found out about his work,

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Speaker 1: had a chance to listening and watch his ted talk,

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Speaker 1: read his memoir, I was blown away by the work

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Speaker 1: that he was doing behind closed doors without any real

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Speaker 1: true support. So I felt like I could lend myself

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Speaker 1: my platform, my medium to help telling the story and

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Speaker 1: getting his story out to the masses. The first time

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Speaker 1: I visited Death Row, I wasn't expecting to meet somebody

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Speaker 1: the same age as me, grew up on the same

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Speaker 1: music from a neighborhood just like ours. Could have been

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Speaker 1: me mama, but stepping into the role of his real

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Speaker 1: life hero Brian Stevenson, who's also soft spoken and restrained,

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Speaker 1: took a different set of acting skills for the Black

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Speaker 1: Panther star. I think emotionally, the positions that Brian Stephen

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Speaker 1: has been in throughout this movie, throughout his his time

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Speaker 1: as being a defense attorney, you know, especially in the the

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Speaker 1: Deep South, the obstacles he had to encounter, I naturally

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Speaker 1: would have reacted much different. So to know that he

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Speaker 1: is such a reserved person that he did take his

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Speaker 1: pride and his ego and put it to the side

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Speaker 1: for the betterment of his clients. Knowing that, you know him,

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Speaker 1: emotionally reacting wouldn't wouldn't get anything done in that type

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Speaker 1: of way. So he's so strategic and it's so so

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Speaker 1: methodical and how he moves Uh. You know, it was

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Speaker 1: a challenge to go again sometimes your natural reaction at

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Speaker 1: the things uh and uh and and and play a

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Speaker 1: more reserved and right And you're right. He did it

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Speaker 1: because he knew that was the means to the end

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Speaker 1: he wanted to achieve. Meanwhile, how did Michael convince you

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Speaker 1: or did did it take any convincing? It was no convincing.

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Speaker 1: I've known Mike for for a long time. His mentor

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Speaker 1: I've watched and grow up. So I was humble and

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Speaker 1: honored to get that call from him. And there was

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Speaker 1: some personal things that we talked about. But the one

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Speaker 1: thing that I could tell you that in our business

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Speaker 1: is hard to find people that stand up people. And

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Speaker 1: he says, I want you to be in this film,

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Speaker 1: And basically he was giving my u my artistic integrity

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Speaker 1: back in a sense, and and I said, hey, I'm

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Speaker 1: in with both feet because I think, what what what

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Speaker 1: What I'll say about Michael b is that it's the

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Speaker 1: biggest start in the world and he could do anything

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Speaker 1: he wants to. But I think what was amazing, what

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Speaker 1: is amazing about his career is when he laid the

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Speaker 1: DNA of narratives like this in Fruitvale Station, where he

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Speaker 1: took all of our hearts and uh and emotions and

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Speaker 1: and just and just wild us. And then to take

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Speaker 1: that same narrative to the biggest movie ever, uh, Black Panther,

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Speaker 1: where he plays kill Monger, which is supposedly the villain.

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Speaker 1: But if you listen to what he was saying, even

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Speaker 1: as a villain, his narrative for us on the biggest stage,

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Speaker 1: We're still talking about our culture and what we needed.

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Speaker 1: So now, to me, this completes an artistic sentence of

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Speaker 1: many paragraphs that he's gonna write. But Just Mercy is

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Speaker 1: the most important movie that I've ever been involved with

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Speaker 1: because of the fact of the introduction of Brian Stevenson.

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Speaker 1: Because Brian Stevenson says and deals with and talks about

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Speaker 1: every day everything that we everything that we talk about

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Speaker 1: on social media but don't know where to go. You know,

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Speaker 1: there'll be things where you're looking on social media and

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Speaker 1: you'll be so mad about I see this black team

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Speaker 1: or I see this person. These attrocities happens, and we'll

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Speaker 1: get on and we'll will comment about it. But this

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Speaker 1: gives us an opportunity to come see a movie which

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Speaker 1: is not only art, uh, but it's educational. It's inspirational.

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Speaker 1: So much perspective, doesn't he Janie, He has so much

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Speaker 1: perspective and it's so listen. I get. I would get

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Speaker 1: upset when people would say about a black man that

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Speaker 1: he speaks so well, But then I found myself saying

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Speaker 1: this about Brian Steveson, that he speaks so well, but

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Speaker 1: not speaking so well. It's what he's saying. He's telling

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Speaker 1: us about our past. He's telling us about what we

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Speaker 1: need to get, what we need to get to, and

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Speaker 1: how how bad things are. But he's saying it in

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Speaker 1: a way that everyone could be inclusive. These events happened

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Speaker 1: thirty years ago, but against the backdrop of Black Lives Matter,

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Speaker 1: and I think a modern reckoning of all these issues

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Speaker 1: and the genesis of the problem, you must feel like

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Speaker 1: this is more relevant than ever before. To really explore

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Speaker 1: how we got here, and that's what I think Brian

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Speaker 1: does so beautifully. He kind of connects threads in history

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Speaker 1: from reconstruction, Jim Crow segregation to what is modern day

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Speaker 1: segregation really de facto segregation. What the thing is that

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Speaker 1: you can see it now. You know, years back we

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Speaker 1: don't have social media, and now you can actually go

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Speaker 1: on your your phone and see atrocities today modern day

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Speaker 1: two thou nineteen in the twenty of something going bad

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Speaker 1: because of a person who's uh color of skin. You

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Speaker 1: see a young uh, you see a black man being

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Speaker 1: treated a certain way or shot and killed for a

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Speaker 1: traffic stop started off as your blinker was out something

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Speaker 1: small and he ends up dead. And then you see

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Speaker 1: someone who's not black, white carry out a crazy atrocity

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Speaker 1: and they apprehend them, they take them to get something

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Speaker 1: to eat. Brian Stevenson has been fighting this fight in

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Speaker 1: the shadows for years. So that's why this movie is

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Speaker 1: so important. Is a want. It's important for everybody rarely

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Speaker 1: behind it because I always say, what happens in the

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Speaker 1: hood usually gets to the suburbs. So eventually these types

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Speaker 1: of things will will will, We'll touch you in some

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Speaker 1: type of way. So, like I said, the movie does

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Speaker 1: something and I haven't seen a movie do, especially when

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Speaker 1: people get a chance to watch it with other people.

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Speaker 1: What are the qualities you admire most about Bryan Stevenson?

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Speaker 1: His humility, his drive, his focus, UH, his strategic way

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Speaker 1: they were in which he moves and thinks, um, his selflessness,

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Speaker 1: his um, his heart, his compassion, his persistent his unwavering persistence.

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Speaker 1: Jamie says all the time, he just doesn't fatigue. You know,

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Speaker 1: the guys NonStop from Supreme Court case at the Supreme

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Speaker 1: Court case, back to set, back to Supreme Court. You know,

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Speaker 1: he's constantly exactly what do you think me that I

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Speaker 1: just I just think his his his courage, you know,

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Speaker 1: being a young man from the South, you know, sometimes

429
00:23:06,720 --> 00:23:09,280
Speaker 1: it makes you tuck your blackness in sometimes, Like I've

430
00:23:09,320 --> 00:23:11,480
Speaker 1: been in situations where I was like, man, I don't know.

431
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:14,200
Speaker 1: And to see someone who lives in the South and

432
00:23:14,359 --> 00:23:17,720
Speaker 1: able to speak truth to people who who don't have

433
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:21,199
Speaker 1: a fondness of you, I think it's amazing. And I

434
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:25,880
Speaker 1: think it's amazing too, uh that he does it, like

435
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 1: you told me pro pro bone on that he does

436
00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:32,760
Speaker 1: it sometimes. Um uh even now he said, he goes

437
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:34,919
Speaker 1: through things that you know, he showed up to the

438
00:23:34,920 --> 00:23:37,040
Speaker 1: court room and the and the judge thought he was

439
00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:39,879
Speaker 1: actually you know, he thought he was on trial. He

440
00:23:40,000 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: was on trial and you're over there. So the things

441
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,640
Speaker 1: that I think that that his his patience, his patience

442
00:23:47,080 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 1: with with the system that is flawed when it comes

443
00:23:50,600 --> 00:23:53,439
Speaker 1: to African Americans, I think it's amazing and we we

444
00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:56,360
Speaker 1: all benefit from his patients. Well, I have been such

445
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: a huge fan of his for many years, and I'm

446
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,400
Speaker 1: just so happy that the two of you are going

447
00:24:01,480 --> 00:24:07,000
Speaker 1: to hopefully make him a household name. Thanks to just mercy.

448
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:11,880
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you both. Up next, we'll have more

449
00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 1: with Brian Stevenson, his latest battle against the death penalty

450
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,960
Speaker 1: and how he's trying to reframe this country's historical narrative

451
00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:32,520
Speaker 1: by exhuming the ghosts of our past. Brian Stevenson is

452
00:24:32,560 --> 00:24:36,399
Speaker 1: the director of the Equal Justice Initiative. The goal of

453
00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: e j I, in addition to representing the most unrepresented,

454
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: is to help people understand the true history of our country,

455
00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:49,280
Speaker 1: including its darkest chapters, through the Legacy Museum in Alabama.

456
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:52,120
Speaker 1: But first I asked him about the recent news from

457
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: Attorney General William Barr that the Trump administration will resume

458
00:24:56,720 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 1: executing federal death row prisoners. You know, it's interesting is

459
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:02,919
Speaker 1: that the federal death penalty is not well understood. Some

460
00:25:02,960 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 1: of the most extreme racial disparities in the death penalty

461
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:09,760
Speaker 1: actually exists in the federal system, and we just haven't

462
00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: done a very good job of creating reliability and fairness.

463
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,240
Speaker 1: I think that, you know, the question of the death

464
00:25:15,240 --> 00:25:19,000
Speaker 1: penalty in this country can't be answered by asking do

465
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:21,639
Speaker 1: people deserve to die for the crime safe committed? I

466
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,240
Speaker 1: think the threshold question is do we deserve to kill?

467
00:25:24,960 --> 00:25:27,520
Speaker 1: And we have a system that is very unreliable, that

468
00:25:27,680 --> 00:25:31,760
Speaker 1: is very unfair, that is biased, that doesn't treat people

469
00:25:31,800 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: of color the same way they treat other people, that

470
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:37,679
Speaker 1: doesn't provide people with the resources that they need. You know,

471
00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,240
Speaker 1: at the end of the film, I'm I'm really pleased

472
00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: to have a statistic that everybody is going to see

473
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,200
Speaker 1: when they see this movie, and it's a shocking statistic.

474
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:49,280
Speaker 1: And the statistic is is that, um, we've now proven

475
00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,280
Speaker 1: innocent a hundred and sixty four people on death row.

476
00:25:52,359 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: That means for every nine people who have been executed

477
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,880
Speaker 1: in this country, we've identified one innocent personal death row.

478
00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:03,480
Speaker 1: And when you think about that, it's completely unacceptable that

479
00:26:03,480 --> 00:26:06,480
Speaker 1: we're still trying to execute people. If we learned that

480
00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,040
Speaker 1: one out of nine apples in the store would kill

481
00:26:09,080 --> 00:26:11,440
Speaker 1: you if you touched it or bit into it, we

482
00:26:11,440 --> 00:26:14,159
Speaker 1: would stop selling apples. Nobody would get on a plane

483
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:16,800
Speaker 1: if for one out of nine planes goes up and crashes,

484
00:26:16,800 --> 00:26:19,840
Speaker 1: and everybody does. But we're accepting it in the context

485
00:26:19,920 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 1: of the death penalty. And I think what's disappointing about

486
00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:25,159
Speaker 1: trying to resume the federal death penalty is that we

487
00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:27,880
Speaker 1: haven't done the hard work of making that death penalty

488
00:26:27,960 --> 00:26:31,800
Speaker 1: reliable and fair. And so I know that there are

489
00:26:31,880 --> 00:26:34,119
Speaker 1: lawyers who are going to be fighting against that, and

490
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,280
Speaker 1: I hope this becomes just a moment in this effort,

491
00:26:38,320 --> 00:26:40,560
Speaker 1: we've seen a lot of states reject the death penalty.

492
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:43,439
Speaker 1: There's a moratorium in California right now. The numbers of

493
00:26:43,480 --> 00:26:47,480
Speaker 1: death sentences has decreased dramatically in the last decade or so.

494
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: I think the progress that we're making will ultimately happen.

495
00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,960
Speaker 1: I think in a generation fifty years from now, people

496
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,200
Speaker 1: will look back and say, why were they executing people

497
00:26:57,240 --> 00:27:00,639
Speaker 1: in this country fifty years ago? Let's talk about the

498
00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:04,320
Speaker 1: Legacy Museum and the Memorial for Peace and Justice in Montgomery.

499
00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:07,840
Speaker 1: The New Yorker compares the Legacy Museum to a great

500
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:11,399
Speaker 1: legal argument, and that it relies on both emotion and

501
00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:16,600
Speaker 1: a precise accumulation of evidence. There's so many powerful things

502
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:19,640
Speaker 1: in Montgomery that I hope everyone will get an opportunity

503
00:27:19,760 --> 00:27:23,159
Speaker 1: to see. But Brian, why was this such an important

504
00:27:23,280 --> 00:27:26,520
Speaker 1: project for you? You know? I talked about the fact

505
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,000
Speaker 1: that I'm a product of Brown versus Board of Education.

506
00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,240
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be sitting here if lawyers hadn't come into

507
00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,280
Speaker 1: our community and made it possible for me to go

508
00:27:34,320 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 1: to high school in college. And I think it was

509
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 1: about twelve or thirteen years ago when I began to

510
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:44,000
Speaker 1: think about that and I had this really chilling um thought,

511
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 1: And the chilling, scary thought that I had was, um,

512
00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,919
Speaker 1: I don't think we could win Brown versus Board of

513
00:27:50,000 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: Education today. I don't think our court would do something

514
00:27:52,840 --> 00:27:57,439
Speaker 1: that disruptive on behalf of a disenfranchised, dis empowered group.

515
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,119
Speaker 1: And the reason why I don't think they would do

516
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,600
Speaker 1: it is that we haven't created a narrative environment that

517
00:28:02,640 --> 00:28:07,440
Speaker 1: actually pushes our institutions to never waiver when it comes

518
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 1: to justice and fairness. And that's what made me think

519
00:28:10,680 --> 00:28:13,359
Speaker 1: we have to start working outside the courts to create

520
00:28:13,440 --> 00:28:17,120
Speaker 1: a healthier environment and environment that deals. Honestly, I don't

521
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 1: think we're free. I think we're burdened by this history

522
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:22,800
Speaker 1: of racial inequality. I moved to Montgomery in the nineteen eighties.

523
00:28:22,840 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 1: There are fifty nine markers and monuments to the Confederacy

524
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:30,480
Speaker 1: in that city. Alabama still celebrates Jefferson Davis's birthday as

525
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 1: a state holiday. A Confederate Memorial Day is still a

526
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: state holiday. We don't have Martin Luther King Day in Alabama.

527
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: We have Martin Luther King slash Robert E. Lee Day.

528
00:28:40,520 --> 00:28:43,000
Speaker 1: The two largest high schools in Montgomery are Robberty Lehigh

529
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,200
Speaker 1: and Jefferson Davis. Hi, we've been practicing denial and silence,

530
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 1: and we've created this false narrative about who we are.

531
00:28:50,760 --> 00:28:52,800
Speaker 1: And I just think we're at a point in our

532
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 1: nation's history. But we have to change that narrative. We're

533
00:28:57,360 --> 00:29:01,040
Speaker 1: going to have to commit ourselves to true telling. South

534
00:29:01,080 --> 00:29:05,040
Speaker 1: Africa committed to truth and reconciliation after apartheid. They have

535
00:29:05,160 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 1: an apartheid museum that's powerful. If you go to the

536
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: Constitutional Court in Johannesburg, it's surrounded by emblems and symbols

537
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:14,320
Speaker 1: that are designed to make sure that no one forgets

538
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:17,600
Speaker 1: the injustice of apartheid. If you go to Berlin, you

539
00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:19,840
Speaker 1: can't go to hundred meters without seeing the markers and

540
00:29:19,840 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: the stones have been placed next to the homes of

541
00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: Jewish families that were abductive during the Holocaust. The Germans

542
00:29:25,120 --> 00:29:28,080
Speaker 1: actually want you to go to the Holocaust memorial. They're

543
00:29:28,080 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: trying to change the narrative. They don't want to be

544
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 1: thought of as Nazis and fascists. There are no Adolf

545
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: Hitler statutes in Germany. But in this country, we haven't

546
00:29:35,560 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 1: talked about the native genocide. We haven't talked about slavery.

547
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:40,600
Speaker 1: We haven't talked about Lynchia, we haven't talked about segregation,

548
00:29:40,880 --> 00:29:43,040
Speaker 1: and I think that has to change. And so we

549
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 1: built these sites because I believe we need an era

550
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:49,560
Speaker 1: of truth injustice. And the thing we have to remember

551
00:29:50,080 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 1: is that truth and justice. Uh I just I think

552
00:29:57,560 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: that truth and justice, truth and repair, truth and reconcil lation.

553
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 1: I think these things are sequential. You got to tell

554
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 1: the truth before you get to reconciliation. And for me,

555
00:30:05,640 --> 00:30:08,760
Speaker 1: this is rooted in a desire. And I don't do

556
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: this stuff because I want to punish us for our history.

557
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 1: I really believe there is something that feels more like freedom,

558
00:30:15,040 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 1: that feels more like a quality, that feels more like

559
00:30:17,920 --> 00:30:20,720
Speaker 1: justice than what we have yet experienced in this nation.

560
00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,520
Speaker 1: But to get there, we're gonna have to have these conversations.

561
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 1: We're gonna have to talk about these things. We're gonna

562
00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:27,680
Speaker 1: have to build institutions like the ones we've hopefully built

563
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: that will motivate people to go through those spaces and

564
00:30:30,280 --> 00:30:32,400
Speaker 1: when they get to the end of the space, say

565
00:30:32,480 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: never again. When it comes to tolerating bias and bigotry

566
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: and hatred, that's the hope, and of course, the history

567
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 1: of lynching in this country is something that has literally

568
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:45,640
Speaker 1: been buried from view. And that's one of the things

569
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 1: that was so moving for me to see the mason

570
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,920
Speaker 1: jars full of soil from various lynching sites. You have

571
00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,360
Speaker 1: done a project where you bring the descendants of lynching

572
00:30:56,480 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: victims to the site where you believe their relatives were killed,

573
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 1: were murdered, hung, shot, burned, and then they collect the

574
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:09,360
Speaker 1: soil because these people never had a proper burial and

575
00:31:09,480 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: the stories of those victims are so heartbreaking. And the

576
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:19,480
Speaker 1: different colors of soil representing all the different regions where

577
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 1: these lynchings took place. I mean, it's just such a powerful,

578
00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:27,560
Speaker 1: powerful thing to see. It took my breath away, honestly.

579
00:31:27,840 --> 00:31:30,880
Speaker 1: Well for me, it's about active truth telling and I

580
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 1: and that's what I think, and it's sometimes hard you

581
00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:35,640
Speaker 1: have to be courageous to do it, but I think

582
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:39,440
Speaker 1: that's the goal. I mean, we did one recently where

583
00:31:39,480 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: middle aged black woman came and what we do is

584
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 1: we send people to lynching sites. We give them an

585
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: empty jar, we give them a little implement to dig soil,

586
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 1: and they put the soil in the jar. It has

587
00:31:48,240 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 1: the name of the lynching victim and the date, and

588
00:31:50,640 --> 00:31:52,520
Speaker 1: then we put it in our museum and we put

589
00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 1: it in our display. And this middle aged black woman

590
00:31:55,000 --> 00:31:57,720
Speaker 1: came and she was nervous about doing this by herself,

591
00:31:57,800 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: and her site ended up being a remote location. But

592
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:04,240
Speaker 1: she drove down to this dirt road and got out

593
00:32:04,240 --> 00:32:06,360
Speaker 1: of her car to go. I digged the soil. She

594
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 1: found the tree, and she was about to start digging

595
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,560
Speaker 1: when a truck drove by and there was this big

596
00:32:11,560 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: white guy in the truck and he drove by and

597
00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:14,880
Speaker 1: he saw this black woman on the side of the

598
00:32:15,000 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 1: road and he slowed down and he turned around and

599
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:20,080
Speaker 1: he drove back by, and she said he stared at

600
00:32:20,080 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 1: her as he drove by, and then she said he

601
00:32:22,320 --> 00:32:24,120
Speaker 1: parked the truck and he got out of the truck,

602
00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:26,719
Speaker 1: big guy, and he started walking toward her, and she

603
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 1: was terrified. And we tell people you don't have to

604
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 1: explain what you're doing when you're doing this. You can

605
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:32,840
Speaker 1: just say you're getting dirt for your garden. And that's

606
00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 1: what she was going to do. And this big white

607
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:36,760
Speaker 1: guy wrote walked up to her and he said, what

608
00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 1: are you doing? And she said she was about to say,

609
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:40,840
Speaker 1: I'm just getting dirt from my garden, and she said,

610
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 1: something got ahold of her. And she told that man.

611
00:32:43,360 --> 00:32:45,760
Speaker 1: She says, I'm digging soil because this is where a

612
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: black man was lynched in one and I want to

613
00:32:48,360 --> 00:32:51,320
Speaker 1: honor his life. And she says. She got so scared

614
00:32:51,360 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 1: that she started digging real fast, and the man just

615
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: stood there. And then the man said, does that paper

616
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:58,960
Speaker 1: talk about the lynching? And she said it does, and

617
00:32:59,000 --> 00:33:00,720
Speaker 1: he said, can I read it? And so she gave

618
00:33:00,760 --> 00:33:03,280
Speaker 1: the man the paper and she kept digging while the

619
00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:05,240
Speaker 1: man read. And then the man put the paper down,

620
00:33:06,080 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 1: and he stunned her by saying, would you mind if

621
00:33:09,640 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: I helped you? And she said of course. And the

622
00:33:12,080 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 1: man got down on his knees, and she offered him

623
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 1: the implement to dig the soil. He said, no, no, no, no, no,

624
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:19,760
Speaker 1: you keep that. I'll just use my hands. And she said,

625
00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: this man started throwing his hands into the soil, and

626
00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 1: his hands were turning black with this when he kept

627
00:33:24,800 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 1: throwing his hands, and there was something about the force

628
00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:29,600
Speaker 1: with which he was digging this soil that moved her.

629
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 1: And before she realized that, she had tears running down

630
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,280
Speaker 1: her face. And the man stopped and he said, oh,

631
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:38,479
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I'm upsetting you. And she said no, no, no, no,

632
00:33:38,520 --> 00:33:41,000
Speaker 1: you're blessing me. And he used his hands and he

633
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:42,520
Speaker 1: dug the soil and put it in the jar, and

634
00:33:42,560 --> 00:33:44,680
Speaker 1: she used the implement and they filled this jar and

635
00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:46,560
Speaker 1: he got teared toward the top, and she said. The

636
00:33:46,560 --> 00:33:49,320
Speaker 1: man started to slow down, and then she looked at

637
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,800
Speaker 1: the man and she noticed that his shoulders were shaking,

638
00:33:51,960 --> 00:33:55,040
Speaker 1: and then she saw tears running down his face and

639
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,080
Speaker 1: she stopped and she put her hand on his shoulder

640
00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,080
Speaker 1: and she said, are you okay? And the man said no, no, no,

641
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 1: I'm just so worried that it might have been my

642
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,720
Speaker 1: grandfather that lynched this man. And she said they both

643
00:34:07,720 --> 00:34:12,040
Speaker 1: sat on the roadside crying, and they finished, and he

644
00:34:12,080 --> 00:34:13,680
Speaker 1: stood up and said, I want to take a picture

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00:34:13,680 --> 00:34:15,160
Speaker 1: of you holding the jar. And she said, well, I

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00:34:15,200 --> 00:34:16,839
Speaker 1: want to take a picture of you holding the jar.

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00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: And she brought this man back to Montgomery and they

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00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 1: called me into the room and she she brought me

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00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,200
Speaker 1: over to him. She said, I want you to meet

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00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: my new friend. He helped me dig the sore, and

651
00:34:26,239 --> 00:34:29,040
Speaker 1: we want to put the jar on the museum exhibit together.

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00:34:29,080 --> 00:34:31,319
Speaker 1: I said that would be beautiful, and I tell that

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00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: story because beautiful things like that don't always happen when

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00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:37,240
Speaker 1: you do truth work. But unless we do the truth work,

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00:34:37,880 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 1: we deny ourselves the opportunity for beautiful things to happen.

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00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,600
Speaker 1: And that's what I hope our sites represent. I hope

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00:34:43,600 --> 00:34:46,920
Speaker 1: that's what our work represents. It's hard, it's difficult, it's challenging,

658
00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:50,040
Speaker 1: but I think something beautiful can come from this if

659
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,080
Speaker 1: we can find a way to lay down the burden

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00:34:52,480 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 1: of this long history of inequality, this long history of

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00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: hatred and bigotry and racism. I really want to get

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00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,839
Speaker 1: to a different place, and for me, that means being

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00:35:00,840 --> 00:35:04,120
Speaker 1: willing to speak the truth. When it comes to talking

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00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:09,200
Speaker 1: about his own legacy, Brian is characteristically humble. I really

665
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:11,959
Speaker 1: do believe that if I've had any impact as a lawyer,

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00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,239
Speaker 1: if I've helped anybody during my legal career, if I've

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00:35:14,239 --> 00:35:17,239
Speaker 1: made a difference of representing my clients, it's not because

668
00:35:17,280 --> 00:35:19,520
Speaker 1: I'm hard working, it's not because I'm smart or anything

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00:35:19,560 --> 00:35:22,719
Speaker 1: like that. It's because I got proximate to a condemned

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00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:25,920
Speaker 1: man and heard him sing about higher ground. And that's

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00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,360
Speaker 1: why I talk about proximity, because I think there's power

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00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 1: when we get close to the poor and excluded in

673
00:35:30,920 --> 00:35:36,040
Speaker 1: the condemned. There's knowledge, there's wisdom, there's insight, there's inspiration.

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00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:39,840
Speaker 1: There are portals that can change the world. That word

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00:35:40,160 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 1: proximate has always stuck with me, because if we're not

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00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: exposed to other people, if we don't step out of

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00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:49,480
Speaker 1: our own bubbles and see how others live and what

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00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: they face, how will we ever learn to be more

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00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 1: empathetic and make the world a better place. I know

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00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,520
Speaker 1: it may sound hokey, but as Brian Stevenson says, getting

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00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:05,320
Speaker 1: proximant is quote key to our capacity to make a difference.

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00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,400
Speaker 1: The movie Just Mercy, starring Michael B. Jordan's and Jamie Fox,

683
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 1: is in theaters this Christmas. I highly recommend it. And

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00:36:14,360 --> 00:36:16,880
Speaker 1: that does it for this week's episode, which is actually

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00:36:16,920 --> 00:36:20,439
Speaker 1: my last episode of our very first season. I hope

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00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: you've enjoyed listening to this podcast as much as I've

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00:36:23,840 --> 00:36:26,479
Speaker 1: enjoyed doing it. We're gonna take a little break while

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00:36:26,480 --> 00:36:30,839
Speaker 1: we prepare for season two coming in early gosh, can

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00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,279
Speaker 1: you believe it's But don't worry, we have a few

690
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,200
Speaker 1: bonus surprises coming your way, so keep an ear to

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00:36:37,280 --> 00:36:40,480
Speaker 1: the next question. Feed over the holidays, and if you

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00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 1: haven't already, subscribe on Apple Podcast, the I Heart app

693
00:36:44,640 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: or wherever you listen. And by the way, if you're

694
00:36:47,640 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 1: overwhelmed by the tsunami of information coming at you from

695
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:54,880
Speaker 1: your phone every single day, check out my morning newsletter

696
00:36:55,040 --> 00:36:58,520
Speaker 1: wake Up Call. Go to Katie Currek dot com to subscribe,

697
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,800
Speaker 1: and of course follow me on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter and YouTube.

698
00:37:03,280 --> 00:37:06,400
Speaker 1: And one more thing before I go, I'd recommend something

699
00:37:06,440 --> 00:37:08,719
Speaker 1: else that can help you make sense of all that's

700
00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: going on these days. That's Cheddars Need to Know podcast.

701
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,720
Speaker 1: Every morning, host Jill and Carlo breakdown the biggest stories

702
00:37:15,760 --> 00:37:19,560
Speaker 1: making headlines, and it's all under ten minutes, from politics

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00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,239
Speaker 1: and business to sports and entertainment. It's daily news with

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00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 1: a little humor that will make you smile. If you

705
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 1: haven't checked it out, you should. And so until next

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00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,920
Speaker 1: time and my next question, I'm Katie Couric. Thanks for

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00:37:32,960 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 1: listening everyone. Next Question with Katie Curic is a production

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00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:40,600
Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio and Katie Curic Media. The executive

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00:37:40,600 --> 00:37:43,920
Speaker 1: producers are Katie Curic, Lauren Bright Pacheco, Julie Douglas, and

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00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: Tyler Klang. Our show producers are Bethan Macaluso and Courtney Litz.

711
00:37:48,600 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: The supervising producer is Dylan Fagan. Associate producers are Emily

712
00:37:52,239 --> 00:37:56,600
Speaker 1: Pinto and Derek Clemens. Editing is by Dylan Fagan, Derek Clements,

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00:37:56,640 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: and Lowell Berlante. Our researcher is Barbara Keene. For more

714
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:03,520
Speaker 1: information on today's episode, go to Katie currek dot com

715
00:38:03,560 --> 00:38:06,239
Speaker 1: and follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Katie Curk.

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00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:14,840
Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I

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00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:18,000
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

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00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: your favorite shows