Speaker 1: Well, the record, Anthony mws N twenty sixth District, I
Speaker 1: get the sixties and seven is mixed up, but this
Speaker 1: is five O seven and this is the one that
Speaker 1: would extend the amount of time that the court can
Speaker 1: dismiss the charge of a defendant who is incompetent to
Speaker 1: stand trial and who was charged with first degree murder
Speaker 1: or sexual assault.
Speaker 2: In March twenty twenty three, Maryland State Senator Anthony Muse
Speaker 2: was introducing a new bill SB five oh seven to
Speaker 2: a Senate committee in Annapolis.
Speaker 1: It changes that time period from five years to a
Speaker 1: reasonable time of ten years. And also this legislation would
Speaker 1: allow the actual victim or the victim's representative to petition
Speaker 1: the court to extend the time for dismissal of certain
Speaker 1: charges against a defendant who is found incompetent to stand trial.
Speaker 2: This bill is in direct response to what Troy Turner
Speaker 2: and his family have been going through.
Speaker 1: So the question comes why is this important? This legislation
Speaker 1: is important because of the victims, like my panelists from
Speaker 1: whom you hear mister Troy Turner, who must have a voice,
Speaker 1: and I think once you hear his story today, you'll
Speaker 1: understand why we need this bill.
Speaker 2: Troy is sitting in the gallery waiting his turn to speak,
Speaker 2: wearing his signature uniform, a T shirt with pictures of
Speaker 2: a smiling Sarah and Jacob.
Speaker 3: I guess before I get into the story in the
Speaker 3: first for the record, mister, my name's Troy Turner, my
Speaker 3: father of Sarah Jacob Hoggle.
Speaker 4: So you may not already know who they are.
Speaker 3: There are my two children who were taken and their
Speaker 3: mother murdered them.
Speaker 2: After the crushing disappointment of the murder charges against Catherine
Speaker 2: being dismissed, this feels like a way for Troy to
Speaker 2: keep his fight alive.
Speaker 3: I've been trying to find them ever since, to bring
Speaker 3: them home for a peaceful rest.
Speaker 2: Today, Catherine is still living at Perkins, but she's only
Speaker 2: committed civilly, not criminally, which means that in time, if
Speaker 2: doctors sign off, she could eventually leave the psychiatric hospital
Speaker 2: and begin to ease back into life on the outside.
Speaker 2: We reached out to Catherine, both directly and through her lawyer,
Speaker 2: and never heard back from her.
Speaker 3: I have a son now, who was sixth at Simon
Speaker 3: is now fourteen, and very soon I figure we're going
Speaker 3: to have to sit down and tell him that as
Speaker 3: her third intended victim to police believe and we know
Speaker 3: she was.
Speaker 4: Coming back for him.
Speaker 2: Troy wants a ten year window of incompetency before murder
Speaker 2: charges can be dismissed. In fact, there was a ten
Speaker 2: year window for capital crimes, including murder, until the State
Speaker 2: of Maryland repealed the death penalty in twenty thirteen.
Speaker 3: As her third and tended victim, We're going to have
Speaker 3: to sit him down and tell him that she's out
Speaker 3: there at some point. From everyone who I've spoken to,
Speaker 3: it doesn't seem like it's going to be very long.
Speaker 2: Quayfrank Troy believes this expanded timeframe would have given Perkins
Speaker 2: more time to treat Catherine or catch on to any
Speaker 2: deliberate efforts she may have taken to remain deemed incompetent.
Speaker 3: We're basically just asking to fix that oversight and put
Speaker 3: the ten year period back for the egregious acts that
Speaker 3: would be capital offenses. As the law now stands, it's
Speaker 3: pretty much just the same bar if you murder two
Speaker 3: children or if you still a fifteen hundred dollars.
Speaker 2: Television I'm Beth Karris, and this is unrestorable. An original
Speaker 2: podcast from Anonymous content and iHeartRadio.
Speaker 3: It's weird because you know something's coming, but it's almost
Speaker 3: like if you have an elder in your family who's
Speaker 3: been sick for a long time and you know they're
Speaker 3: going to die, but then when they pass, it's like
Speaker 3: you're still never really prepared, even though you knew it
Speaker 3: was coming. It was kind of like that we knew
Speaker 3: what was coming, but the feelings still hit. The anger
Speaker 3: is still there, the disappointment in the system.
Speaker 5: When Beth and I met with Troy, his wife Stephanie,
Speaker 5: and Matt Alegi in Matt's suburban law office after the
Speaker 5: charges against Catherine were dismissed, the three of them looked
Speaker 5: tired and defeated, like they hadn't slept for months.
Speaker 4: I feel like I let downsair in Jacob.
Speaker 5: Troy, typically gregarious, was subdued, a ball cap pulled low
Speaker 5: over his eyes. Stephanie, always warm and a bit high strung,
Speaker 5: was doubly anxious and appeared to be subsisting on mostly
Speaker 5: energy drinks. Matt seemed unsure of what might be helpful.
Speaker 5: They were lost, unmoored, and now facing a terrible prospect
Speaker 5: grappling with the grief they've been caring for almost a
Speaker 5: decade in the absence of a clear purpose.
Speaker 6: Having the charges dismissed, and we have lots of you
Speaker 6: on record about how devastating it is. But does does
Speaker 6: the advocacy feel different, Like does it feel like you're
Speaker 6: coming at this from a totally different place or does
Speaker 6: it feel like you're still just every day more of
Speaker 6: the same.
Speaker 3: For Sarah and Jacob, I don't think those two were
Speaker 3: like exclusive from each other.
Speaker 4: I mean it's like kind of both.
Speaker 3: I mean it's it's you know, we have a lot
Speaker 3: of the same conversations, but then it extends into things
Speaker 3: like protecting our family, protecting our son.
Speaker 4: So now it's like where do we go from there?
Speaker 4: In terms of I.
Speaker 3: Mean, she can't get questioned or anything, you know what
Speaker 3: I mean, Like there's there's really no recourse because the
Speaker 3: only person who really knows what happened right at this
Speaker 3: point it is her, and the only people who may
Speaker 3: know something would be the people who were around her then,
Speaker 3: So it's kind of like, Okay, so we really don't
Speaker 3: have any way to even go after information at that
Speaker 3: point other than just advocating trying to figure out kind
Speaker 3: of just off ways to put pressure or I mean,
Speaker 3: it's like I don't even know what to do at
Speaker 3: that point. So it's you know, at that point, you know, Matt, Stephanie, myself,
Speaker 3: we have to sit down and go Okay, so now
Speaker 3: where do we go from here to me?
Speaker 4: Anyway?
Speaker 3: Like I feel almost like I'm I'm like lost, Like
Speaker 3: I'm like on this trip and now I'm in the
Speaker 3: middle of nowhere, not quite sure which way to go
Speaker 3: at that point, but I know I got to go somewhere.
Speaker 5: Troy is particularly worried that you might not be notified
Speaker 5: about Catherine's potential release, that she might be moved to
Speaker 5: a lower security unit and try to escape.
Speaker 3: So it goes to a civil commitment for Catherine, which
Speaker 3: means we are supposedly going to get updates if she's
Speaker 3: kind of I believe she's moved facilities, if she dies,
Speaker 3: there's certain things we would get updates on, the State's
Speaker 3: Attorney's office. The police don't get updates on anything. We're
Speaker 3: not so sure. You know, we don't have a lot
Speaker 3: of faith in the system at this point, much less
Speaker 3: in Perkins that they're going to be held accountable for anything.
Speaker 3: So we're hoping that We're kept abreast of what's going on,
Speaker 3: so that that allows us to keep the people around
Speaker 3: us safe. Once she's seemed not dangerous, then she will
Speaker 3: walk out those doors, and she could move next door
Speaker 3: to you. You wouldn't know it.
Speaker 5: Catherine would have to go through a lot of doors
Speaker 5: before she could move out on her own. She still
Speaker 5: has to be found not a danger to herself or
Speaker 5: others and be put on a discharge plan. The state
Speaker 5: could also bring charges against her down the road once
Speaker 5: she's been found sufficiently competent for release. It's worth noting
Speaker 5: that Perkins has since updated their policy on one on
Speaker 5: one therapy for patients, but the new guidelines note that
Speaker 5: the hospital quote endeavors to protect incompetent to stand trial
Speaker 5: and pre trial patients from any adverse legal consequences that
Speaker 5: may arise out of individual therapy. It's a long and
Speaker 5: potentially difficult road, but it's one that Catherine's mother, Lindsay,
Speaker 5: is still willing to walk with her. For Lindsay, everything
Speaker 5: about this case has been loaded with ambivalence, and that
Speaker 5: now includes Catherine's charges being dismissed and her ongoing civil commitment.
Speaker 7: You know, I go out anywhere and I think, oh,
Speaker 7: you know, I see those cute earrings that will look
Speaker 7: good on Catherine, and you realize, you know, she wears
Speaker 7: basically prison guard I mean, you know, we've bought her
Speaker 7: some she has for a coat because the board gets
Speaker 7: so cold, so her dad got that. And I've sent
Speaker 7: her things like that. I've sent her like, you know,
Speaker 7: books like puzzle type books. But it's like being in prison.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 7: But as a friend of mine said, she's warm, she's safe.
Speaker 7: I mean, within reasons, I can't. You know, it's it's
Speaker 7: just tard some of the patients that she has to
Speaker 7: deal with, you know, it's it's it's not any kind
Speaker 7: of existence.
Speaker 6: Really, do you have any sense of what her day
Speaker 6: to day life is like right now?
Speaker 7: They're very strict. I mean all along, they're like, we're
Speaker 7: not gonna let her have extra privileges because it's high profile,
Speaker 7: like I I'll expect you to, you know. I mean,
Speaker 7: they have different activities. I mean, but they don't have
Speaker 7: real privileges of any sort. I mean, people think that
Speaker 7: they're living a luxury life. They don't have the internet.
Speaker 7: They have restricted television and restricted movies when it's COVID lockdown.
Speaker 7: They can only move around on their ward. It has
Speaker 7: access to an outdoor area, but it has to be
Speaker 7: warm enough.
Speaker 5: Lindsay's primary goal now is to get Catherine the help
Speaker 5: she believes she needs.
Speaker 7: You know, she may be released. I don't think that
Speaker 7: the court has that they have a you know, much
Speaker 7: choice at some part, you know. And my only comment
Speaker 7: to her was if you're released in any you know, program,
Speaker 7: which you never know, but I would hope they would
Speaker 7: have like a step down, you know, integration into normal life.
Speaker 7: I said, it's not okay for you to be released
Speaker 7: without knowing what happened to Sarah Jacob, and so she'll
Speaker 7: always says nothing happened. And I said, well, then without
Speaker 7: knowing where Sarah Jacob Barr you know, good, bad or ugly.
Speaker 7: We just it's time. It's become where it's cruel not
Speaker 7: to tell us, but.
Speaker 5: That hope that Catherine will one day lead people to
Speaker 5: the kids. It's not easy to hold on to that hope.
Speaker 5: Does she imagine a world or does she talk about
Speaker 5: a world in which she's reunited with all three children
Speaker 5: she has she.
Speaker 7: Has, you know, and part of that has been me
Speaker 7: saying you understand that you know, if the charges are dropped,
Speaker 7: it's not just you're free to go get the children
Speaker 7: and raise your children. And I'm not sure how much
Speaker 7: of that is in her disorder thinking and how much
Speaker 7: is real.
Speaker 5: But the question of where Sarah and Jacob or their
Speaker 5: remains might be, or Catherine's continued insistence that they are
Speaker 5: still alive, or even that Catherine is pretending to be delusional,
Speaker 5: those aren't the most pressing fears Troy and Stephanie have
Speaker 5: right now.
Speaker 8: We're probably more terrified right now than we've ever been.
Speaker 5: The idea that Catherine might look to reunite with her
Speaker 5: oldest son, to seek him out in any way, is
Speaker 5: a worry that keeps them up at night ruminating about
Speaker 5: all of the awful possibilities. I mean, what can you
Speaker 5: even do at this point.
Speaker 8: I mean, I'm with him almost all the time, you know.
Speaker 8: I mean, he obviously goes to school and stuff. But
Speaker 8: you know, we have safety plans in place at this school.
Speaker 8: You know, for years, I've been doing, you know, a
Speaker 8: lot of things to keep him protected.
Speaker 4: But it's it's.
Speaker 8: Hard, and I know that she wants to reconcile with him.
Speaker 3: There's absolutely no reason she's not going to try to
Speaker 3: show up somewhere where he is, Like I don't, I
Speaker 3: don't necessarily think she's going to.
Speaker 4: Show up at my front door where she knows I
Speaker 4: am or something.
Speaker 3: But if she can figure out somewhere where she thinks
Speaker 3: he might be, there's nothing to stop her from showing up.
Speaker 4: I mean, what's gonna stop her? What? The police may
Speaker 4: come and then what and say stop? Or we'll say
Speaker 4: stop again.
Speaker 6: So now you just have to deal with a huge
Speaker 6: amount of fear that compounds the grief you've already been
Speaker 6: living in for years.
Speaker 2: Do you think you could get a protective order, a
Speaker 2: kind of like a permanent order.
Speaker 3: There's no there's no way to for I mean, think
Speaker 3: about it, if I mean batter women who have been
Speaker 3: beat up and put in the hospital can't get a
Speaker 3: protective order until they're damn near killed. That's why you
Speaker 3: have women who die in those situation, you know, because
Speaker 3: nobody wants to do nothing until something already happens.
Speaker 4: It's the same thing.
Speaker 5: These feelings of powerlessness, of being forced to sit on
Speaker 5: his hands to wait for another very bad thing to happen,
Speaker 5: is part of a propelled Troy to pursue legislative change.
Speaker 3: We try to change it going forward for other families
Speaker 3: and other people, other victims. We try to change it
Speaker 3: hopefully at some point going forward for us. So I mean,
Speaker 3: where we're at is is we have to get this
Speaker 3: changed and fix it so other people don't go through
Speaker 3: it this way. I saw a reporter speaking about it,
Speaker 3: and the anchor asked him what you know, So what
Speaker 3: is the state going to make sure this doesn't happen again?
Speaker 3: And he just kind of stopped. He said, well nothing.
Speaker 3: He was like, in the current system, this could happen
Speaker 3: over and over again.
Speaker 4: My name's Troy Turner. I want to thank you guys
Speaker 4: for hearing me out. First.
Speaker 3: I'm the father of three children. Two of them were
Speaker 3: murdered by their mother at ages two and three.
Speaker 2: In April twenty twenty three, Troy was back at the
Speaker 2: state House in Annapolis to push for reform. His bill
Speaker 2: had been passed through a Senate committee and he was
Speaker 2: now appearing before a House committee. He was given two
Speaker 2: minutes to make his case.
Speaker 4: One by one.
Speaker 3: She took my kids by age youngest to oldest at
Speaker 3: age two, age three, and then my five year old.
Speaker 3: Thank god, she was stopped before she got him. He's
Speaker 3: still a miner, and I am terrified that she's going
Speaker 3: to get out and come after him. Like I said,
Speaker 3: she's under a civil commitment, so that could be at
Speaker 3: any point in time. We just want to fix what
Speaker 3: was broken by accident.
Speaker 2: Troy wasn't the only person who spoke that day in
Speaker 2: support of the bill.
Speaker 9: Senate Bill five oh seven is necessary to protect public safety,
Speaker 9: but it also continues to protect the rights of defendants
Speaker 9: with disabilities.
Speaker 2: That's Tracy Varda of the Baltimore City State's Attorney's Office.
Speaker 2: She runs the mental health courts in Baltimore City on
Speaker 2: behalf of her office.
Speaker 9: So this tenuere provision needs to be reinstated for the
Speaker 9: following reasons. First of all, currently Criminal Procedure three one
Speaker 9: oh seven's allows dangerous defendants to walk free. Second reason,
Speaker 9: ten years will allow more time for dangerous defendants to
Speaker 9: receive treatment and become confident. Thirdly, this bill protects the
Speaker 9: defendants rights. Importantly, the judge still retains the right to
Speaker 9: dismiss any charges at any time the court believes is unjust,
Speaker 9: and this only applies to us defendants.
Speaker 2: There was also opposition to changing the statute.
Speaker 10: My name is Mary Piso. I'm the Supervising attorney for
Speaker 10: the Forensic Mental Health Division of the Office of the
Speaker 10: Public Defender, and I'm respectfully requesting that the committee issue
Speaker 10: an unfavorable report on Senate Bill five h seven.
Speaker 2: Mary Piso of the Public Defender's Office was calling in
Speaker 2: from her car. It's her job to provide legal counsel
Speaker 2: and advocacy for people with mental health issues who are
Speaker 2: involved in the criminal justice system, and she worried that
Speaker 2: changes to this bill would lead to an erosion of
Speaker 2: rights for defendants, not an increase in rights for victims.
Speaker 10: The amendments to Criminal Procedure three one oh seven are unnecessary,
Speaker 10: clinically inappropriate, and inconsistent with constitutional principles regarding those deemed
Speaker 10: and competent to stand trial, tying a further increase in
Speaker 10: length of hospitalization into the severity of the crime is
Speaker 10: based on a rationale punishment rather than treatment, even though
Speaker 10: these individuals have not yet and in fact may never
Speaker 10: be convicted of any crime.
Speaker 2: But in the end, it was a father's grief that
Speaker 2: echoed through the chamber. One man against a system determined
Speaker 2: to create purpose from his personal tragedy, no matter how painful.
Speaker 3: I'll be very honest with you. It's not easy for
Speaker 3: me to come here and relive this.
Speaker 2: Even if changing this statute could never turn back the clock.
Speaker 3: I've been doing it over the past few years. I've
Speaker 3: been here several times. Please do not make me come
Speaker 3: back again and do this. Please fix this while you can.
Speaker 3: It needs to be fixed now.
Speaker 2: I heard later that when Troy spoke, some of the
Speaker 2: committee members had tears in their eyes, but in the
Speaker 2: end it didn't matter. In late April, Matt emailed, he
Speaker 2: said the bill didn't pass the House. Everyone's a little
Speaker 2: worn down right now. He said, this was the last
Speaker 2: major card Troy had to play. For now nothing would change.
Speaker 5: For the next few months. It was hard for Beth
Speaker 5: Andet to get Troy and Stephanie on the phone. Matt
Speaker 5: told us they needed a break. They seemed more insular
Speaker 5: in their grief, more exhausted by so many defeats, less
Speaker 5: galvanized by the fight, and less convinced that putting everything
Speaker 5: out there, sharing the intimate details of the horror they've
Speaker 5: been living with for nine years, was going to help
Speaker 5: them move forward in any way. How have you sort
Speaker 5: of how are you channeling things right now, but eventually
Speaker 5: in August we did connect.
Speaker 3: So we keep in touch with our PI and see
Speaker 3: if there's anything that we can run with him, if
Speaker 3: we can come up with searches.
Speaker 5: For years, Troy had been working with a private investigator
Speaker 5: who ran his own searches for the kids, followed up leads,
Speaker 5: all pro bono. He wasn't able to turn up much
Speaker 5: that the police didn't already know in this case, it's
Speaker 5: been all dead ends.
Speaker 4: Stephanie god bless.
Speaker 3: Now she does it, but she mans the page, you know,
Speaker 3: and she talks to people and puts stuff out there,
Speaker 3: just stuff like that. We're going to be fighting obviously,
Speaker 3: you know, to get law changes done, and as new
Speaker 3: information comes up, then whenever appropriate, we'll run searches. We're
Speaker 3: looking for new ways to search. We're looking at I
Speaker 3: don't even remember what the initials are, but we're trying
Speaker 3: to look into some kind of.
Speaker 7: Heat.
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's like you know what, you know what I'm
Speaker 8: talking about. I just can't think of it off the
Speaker 8: top of.
Speaker 4: Initials, that thing. So, I mean, we're looking at new ways.
Speaker 3: But and I think that's just it, like none of
Speaker 3: it has to do with just you know, throwing pictures
Speaker 3: out there and hoping someone saw something. At this point,
Speaker 3: because it's that's for lack of bedroom. That's pretty useless
Speaker 3: to us at this point, because it's just it's that's
Speaker 3: been done, you know, for nine years now. It's we've
Speaker 3: talked to people who have viable stories. We've talked to
Speaker 3: people who are just crazy. We've talked to people who
Speaker 3: quite frankly, don't mean any malice or trying to get
Speaker 3: false leaves, but they just really want to help so bad.
Speaker 3: When they see something that maybe possibly could have been
Speaker 3: halfway coincidental, then they make it something that it wasn't
Speaker 3: because they want to help so bad.
Speaker 5: It's counterintuitive, but the overwhelming public involvement in this case,
Speaker 5: the generation of thousands of leads, many from people who
Speaker 5: believe they're helping, actually complicates things for the family and
Speaker 5: maybe for any future prosecution of Catherine.
Speaker 3: Well, now that's all stuff that either we have to
Speaker 3: run out or let's say they do rearrest Catherine. Let's
Speaker 3: say they actually get to a point where they're pressing charges.
Speaker 4: Well, we just gave her her case for a reasonable doubt.
Speaker 3: Because there's a thousand leads that were never run. There's
Speaker 3: ten thousand leads that were never run.
Speaker 5: That's Troy and Stephanie's friend and lawyer, Matt Right.
Speaker 4: But I'm saying there's a thousand newer ones even.
Speaker 3: You know, every time there's a news story, they get
Speaker 3: a call from Australia and the same time they get
Speaker 3: a call from Scotland.
Speaker 4: I see the kids.
Speaker 3: Yeah, we've had several leads in Scotland.
Speaker 5: Do you think that Catherine will ever tell you what
Speaker 5: happened to the kids that night?
Speaker 3: No? I don't think she will. There's no there's nothing
Speaker 3: in it for her.
Speaker 4: To do it.
Speaker 5: For years, as Troy has advocated for Catherine to be prosecuted,
Speaker 5: he's made clear that he's not simply seeking to punish her,
Speaker 5: that his desire for a trial isn't just about vengeance.
Speaker 5: Troy believes that the threat of prison, real prison, not
Speaker 5: being confined in a high security psychiatric facility, is the
Speaker 5: only thing that might finally push Catherine to reveal what
Speaker 5: happened the night of September seventh, twenty fourteen.
Speaker 4: She says she's not safe in jail.
Speaker 5: And now that crucial piece of leverage is all but God.
Speaker 3: There's really no one pressing her in order for it
Speaker 3: to even happen the institution itself. Of the course, you know,
Speaker 3: the justice system isn't pressing her. In fact, they're protecting her.
Speaker 3: Perkins isn't pressing her.
Speaker 5: Troy will never stop looking for Sarah and Jacob, and
Speaker 5: with Stephanie's help, he'll do everything he can to protect
Speaker 5: his oldest son.
Speaker 3: There's no end of the road there, so we keep fighting,
Speaker 3: We keep looking if we never find him, all by looking.
Speaker 5: But the path ahead is murky. There's no real recovery
Speaker 5: for this family, just the day to day of putting
Speaker 5: one foot in front of the other under the watch
Speaker 5: of two children now present only in the pictures that
Speaker 5: line their walls. Often, when you lose someone, you have
Speaker 5: a place where you can memorialize them. You go to
Speaker 5: a gravesite and spend time with them you haven't earned,
Speaker 5: that reminds you they were once here. Do you have
Speaker 5: some version of that where you can kind of spend
Speaker 5: time with them or is that just a key thing
Speaker 5: that you've been lacking that you need.
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know.
Speaker 3: People, It's like I don't even like when people use
Speaker 3: words like closure. There's no closure to this. I mean,
Speaker 3: if we found their bodies to it's not closure. My
Speaker 3: kids are going so like for me, I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think Stephanie may have a different opinion, like on
Speaker 3: probably what I think I need or whatever, because sometimes,
Speaker 3: you know, I just, you know whatever, I don't know
Speaker 3: even if their bodies are there, you know, they're not there.
Speaker 3: My kids aren't in my life anymore.
Speaker 4: They're not here.
Speaker 7: To you.
Speaker 6: Is the accountability part almost sort of the bigger part,
Speaker 6: because you know.
Speaker 3: I think that's I think that would be something that
Speaker 3: would be helpful. I mean, there's like no cure for it,
Speaker 3: you know, but it would be helpful if I didn't
Speaker 3: feel like someone just took them and it's fine, you know,
Speaker 3: like that's cool. They took your kids, okay, whatever, they
Speaker 3: killed your kids, cool, Okay, It's like, what the hell
Speaker 3: is that?
Speaker 4: You know?
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't even think I really like care
Speaker 3: how the accountability came about. Like if it's if she's
Speaker 3: in jail, if it's that they find her in the
Speaker 3: NCR and then she's at least locked away from society
Speaker 3: for thirty five years, or if you know, she jumped
Speaker 3: out a window.
Speaker 4: I don't care.
Speaker 3: As long as there's some form of accountability there that
Speaker 3: would be helpful.
Speaker 6: Stephanie, do you have a different or take on this
Speaker 6: or do you Troy?
Speaker 8: I mean, I think the accountability is a huge part
Speaker 8: of it, because you know, to a lot of people,
Speaker 8: this is just a story and these are real kids.
Speaker 8: And you know, my son is really missing his brother
Speaker 8: and sister. I know that he he wants them here. However,
Speaker 8: he needs that like memorial piece. He needs that and
Speaker 8: I can't That's one thing I can't give to him.
Speaker 8: And she was just able to take them and all
Speaker 8: this suffering, all the trauma that my son has endured,
Speaker 8: like all the I mean it, this is so layered.
Speaker 8: People will never you know, it touches and or interferes
Speaker 8: with or hurts every part of everything and makes things,
Speaker 8: You'll create, things that you would have never had to
Speaker 8: deal with on every level, you know, every level in life.
Speaker 6: And when you say that your son needs a memorial piece,
Speaker 6: do you mean like an end to the not knowing?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 8: Yeah, and I mean probably in something physical, yeah, absolutely, Like.
Speaker 3: He needs a place to say I can talk to
Speaker 3: my brothers and sister. This is where they are.
Speaker 5: That's really devastating.
Speaker 11: Yeah, unrestorable is executive produced and hosted by Me, Sarah Trelevin,
Speaker 11: and Beth Carris.
Speaker 5: Our story editor is Kathleen Goldheart. Mixing and sound designed
Speaker 5: by Mitchell Stewart for anonymous content. Jessica Grimshaw is our
Speaker 5: executive producer, Jennifer Sears is our executive in charge of production,
Speaker 5: and nick Yannas is our legal counsel for iHeart executive
Speaker 5: producer Christina Everett and supervising producer Abu Zafar