WEBVTT - Episode 8 – Justice 0:00:03.800 --> 0:00:10.640 Well, the record, Anthony mws N twenty sixth District, I 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:13.000 get the sixties and seven is mixed up, but this 0:00:13.039 --> 0:00:16.279 is five O seven and this is the one that 0:00:16.320 --> 0:00:18.520 would extend the amount of time that the court can 0:00:18.560 --> 0:00:22.160 dismiss the charge of a defendant who is incompetent to 0:00:22.160 --> 0:00:26.840 stand trial and who was charged with first degree murder 0:00:27.560 --> 0:00:28.760 or sexual assault. 0:00:30.720 --> 0:00:34.880 In March twenty twenty three, Maryland State Senator Anthony Muse 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:38.919 was introducing a new bill SB five oh seven to 0:00:38.960 --> 0:00:41.360 a Senate committee in Annapolis. 0:00:41.840 --> 0:00:46.559 It changes that time period from five years to a 0:00:46.680 --> 0:00:51.400 reasonable time of ten years. And also this legislation would 0:00:51.400 --> 0:00:55.400 allow the actual victim or the victim's representative to petition 0:00:55.520 --> 0:00:59.080 the court to extend the time for dismissal of certain 0:00:59.560 --> 0:01:04.200 charges against a defendant who is found incompetent to stand trial. 0:01:06.120 --> 0:01:09.360 This bill is in direct response to what Troy Turner 0:01:09.400 --> 0:01:11.279 and his family have been going through. 0:01:12.200 --> 0:01:16.839 So the question comes why is this important? This legislation 0:01:16.920 --> 0:01:20.560 is important because of the victims, like my panelists from 0:01:20.640 --> 0:01:24.639 whom you hear mister Troy Turner, who must have a voice, 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:27.720 and I think once you hear his story today, you'll 0:01:27.800 --> 0:01:32.640 understand why we need this bill. 0:01:32.680 --> 0:01:35.840 Troy is sitting in the gallery waiting his turn to speak, 0:01:36.120 --> 0:01:39.959 wearing his signature uniform, a T shirt with pictures of 0:01:40.000 --> 0:01:41.760 a smiling Sarah and Jacob. 0:01:42.520 --> 0:01:44.760 I guess before I get into the story in the 0:01:44.840 --> 0:01:48.240 first for the record, mister, my name's Troy Turner, my 0:01:48.400 --> 0:01:49.920 father of Sarah Jacob Hoggle. 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:52.200 So you may not already know who they are. 0:01:52.760 --> 0:01:55.640 There are my two children who were taken and their 0:01:55.680 --> 0:01:56.600 mother murdered them. 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:01.440 After the crushing disappointment of the murder charges against Catherine 0:02:01.480 --> 0:02:04.760 being dismissed, this feels like a way for Troy to 0:02:04.840 --> 0:02:06.120 keep his fight alive. 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:11.079 I've been trying to find them ever since, to bring 0:02:11.120 --> 0:02:13.040 them home for a peaceful rest. 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:17.680 Today, Catherine is still living at Perkins, but she's only 0:02:17.680 --> 0:02:22.280 committed civilly, not criminally, which means that in time, if 0:02:22.400 --> 0:02:26.560 doctors sign off, she could eventually leave the psychiatric hospital 0:02:26.720 --> 0:02:29.559 and begin to ease back into life on the outside. 0:02:30.440 --> 0:02:33.640 We reached out to Catherine, both directly and through her lawyer, 0:02:34.080 --> 0:02:35.520 and never heard back from her. 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:39.239 I have a son now, who was sixth at Simon 0:02:39.320 --> 0:02:43.560 is now fourteen, and very soon I figure we're going 0:02:43.600 --> 0:02:46.760 to have to sit down and tell him that as 0:02:46.800 --> 0:02:50.000 her third intended victim to police believe and we know 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:50.720 she was. 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:51.680 Coming back for him. 0:02:53.440 --> 0:02:57.080 Troy wants a ten year window of incompetency before murder 0:02:57.200 --> 0:03:00.240 charges can be dismissed. In fact, there was a ten 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:04.040 year window for capital crimes, including murder, until the State 0:03:04.080 --> 0:03:07.400 of Maryland repealed the death penalty in twenty thirteen. 0:03:08.680 --> 0:03:11.040 As her third and tended victim, We're going to have 0:03:11.040 --> 0:03:12.560 to sit him down and tell him that she's out 0:03:12.600 --> 0:03:16.040 there at some point. From everyone who I've spoken to, 0:03:16.120 --> 0:03:17.799 it doesn't seem like it's going to be very long. 0:03:17.880 --> 0:03:24.080 Quayfrank Troy believes this expanded timeframe would have given Perkins 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:27.360 more time to treat Catherine or catch on to any 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:32.000 deliberate efforts she may have taken to remain deemed incompetent. 0:03:32.960 --> 0:03:36.320 We're basically just asking to fix that oversight and put 0:03:36.360 --> 0:03:38.760 the ten year period back for the egregious acts that 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:44.520 would be capital offenses. As the law now stands, it's 0:03:44.680 --> 0:03:47.760 pretty much just the same bar if you murder two 0:03:47.880 --> 0:03:50.240 children or if you still a fifteen hundred dollars. 0:03:50.080 --> 0:04:02.480 Television I'm Beth Karris, and this is unrestorable. An original 0:04:02.520 --> 0:04:08.560 podcast from Anonymous content and iHeartRadio. 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:20.240 It's weird because you know something's coming, but it's almost 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.520 like if you have an elder in your family who's 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:24.880 been sick for a long time and you know they're 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:27.359 going to die, but then when they pass, it's like 0:04:27.400 --> 0:04:29.599 you're still never really prepared, even though you knew it 0:04:29.640 --> 0:04:33.680 was coming. It was kind of like that we knew 0:04:33.720 --> 0:04:37.240 what was coming, but the feelings still hit. The anger 0:04:37.320 --> 0:04:42.520 is still there, the disappointment in the system. 0:04:44.160 --> 0:04:47.000 When Beth and I met with Troy, his wife Stephanie, 0:04:47.040 --> 0:04:49.880 and Matt Alegi in Matt's suburban law office after the 0:04:50.000 --> 0:04:53.080 charges against Catherine were dismissed, the three of them looked 0:04:53.240 --> 0:04:56.280 tired and defeated, like they hadn't slept for months. 0:04:57.440 --> 0:04:59.120 I feel like I let downsair in Jacob. 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:05.040 Troy, typically gregarious, was subdued, a ball cap pulled low 0:05:05.120 --> 0:05:09.400 over his eyes. Stephanie, always warm and a bit high strung, 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:12.599 was doubly anxious and appeared to be subsisting on mostly 0:05:12.720 --> 0:05:16.440 energy drinks. Matt seemed unsure of what might be helpful. 0:05:17.240 --> 0:05:22.120 They were lost, unmoored, and now facing a terrible prospect 0:05:23.040 --> 0:05:25.599 grappling with the grief they've been caring for almost a 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:29.000 decade in the absence of a clear purpose. 0:05:29.960 --> 0:05:34.479 Having the charges dismissed, and we have lots of you 0:05:34.600 --> 0:05:38.240 on record about how devastating it is. But does does 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:41.240 the advocacy feel different, Like does it feel like you're 0:05:41.240 --> 0:05:43.360 coming at this from a totally different place or does 0:05:43.400 --> 0:05:46.320 it feel like you're still just every day more of 0:05:46.320 --> 0:05:46.800 the same. 0:05:46.960 --> 0:05:50.920 For Sarah and Jacob, I don't think those two were 0:05:51.000 --> 0:05:53.080 like exclusive from each other. 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:54.760 I mean it's like kind of both. 0:05:54.920 --> 0:05:57.560 I mean it's it's you know, we have a lot 0:05:57.600 --> 0:06:01.839 of the same conversations, but then it extends into things 0:06:01.839 --> 0:06:03.920 like protecting our family, protecting our son. 0:06:04.960 --> 0:06:08.680 So now it's like where do we go from there? 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:09.560 In terms of I. 0:06:09.480 --> 0:06:11.479 Mean, she can't get questioned or anything, you know what 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:15.960 I mean, Like there's there's really no recourse because the 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:18.000 only person who really knows what happened right at this 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:21.000 point it is her, and the only people who may 0:06:21.120 --> 0:06:23.880 know something would be the people who were around her then, 0:06:24.800 --> 0:06:28.559 So it's kind of like, Okay, so we really don't 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:31.080 have any way to even go after information at that 0:06:31.200 --> 0:06:35.560 point other than just advocating trying to figure out kind 0:06:35.600 --> 0:06:38.600 of just off ways to put pressure or I mean, 0:06:38.800 --> 0:06:40.280 it's like I don't even know what to do at 0:06:40.279 --> 0:06:43.760 that point. So it's you know, at that point, you know, Matt, Stephanie, myself, 0:06:43.760 --> 0:06:45.400 we have to sit down and go Okay, so now 0:06:45.440 --> 0:06:47.800 where do we go from here to me? 0:06:47.920 --> 0:06:48.320 Anyway? 0:06:48.360 --> 0:06:51.080 Like I feel almost like I'm I'm like lost, Like 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:52.800 I'm like on this trip and now I'm in the 0:06:52.800 --> 0:06:54.760 middle of nowhere, not quite sure which way to go 0:06:54.839 --> 0:06:56.760 at that point, but I know I got to go somewhere. 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:01.000 Troy is particularly worried that you might not be notified 0:07:01.040 --> 0:07:04.120 about Catherine's potential release, that she might be moved to 0:07:04.160 --> 0:07:06.520 a lower security unit and try to escape. 0:07:07.760 --> 0:07:10.760 So it goes to a civil commitment for Catherine, which 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:15.280 means we are supposedly going to get updates if she's 0:07:15.440 --> 0:07:18.640 kind of I believe she's moved facilities, if she dies, 0:07:18.640 --> 0:07:21.679 there's certain things we would get updates on, the State's 0:07:21.680 --> 0:07:26.200 Attorney's office. The police don't get updates on anything. We're 0:07:26.240 --> 0:07:28.080 not so sure. You know, we don't have a lot 0:07:28.120 --> 0:07:30.920 of faith in the system at this point, much less 0:07:31.040 --> 0:07:34.000 in Perkins that they're going to be held accountable for anything. 0:07:35.560 --> 0:07:38.800 So we're hoping that We're kept abreast of what's going on, 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:40.880 so that that allows us to keep the people around 0:07:40.920 --> 0:07:44.880 us safe. Once she's seemed not dangerous, then she will 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:49.640 walk out those doors, and she could move next door 0:07:49.640 --> 0:07:50.560 to you. You wouldn't know it. 0:07:53.400 --> 0:07:55.679 Catherine would have to go through a lot of doors 0:07:55.720 --> 0:07:58.480 before she could move out on her own. She still 0:07:58.520 --> 0:08:00.760 has to be found not a danger to herself or 0:08:00.800 --> 0:08:03.840 others and be put on a discharge plan. The state 0:08:03.880 --> 0:08:06.520 could also bring charges against her down the road once 0:08:06.560 --> 0:08:11.040 she's been found sufficiently competent for release. It's worth noting 0:08:11.040 --> 0:08:13.560 that Perkins has since updated their policy on one on 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:16.400 one therapy for patients, but the new guidelines note that 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:20.760 the hospital quote endeavors to protect incompetent to stand trial 0:08:20.920 --> 0:08:24.760 and pre trial patients from any adverse legal consequences that 0:08:24.880 --> 0:08:30.440 may arise out of individual therapy. It's a long and 0:08:30.480 --> 0:08:34.079 potentially difficult road, but it's one that Catherine's mother, Lindsay, 0:08:34.520 --> 0:08:38.440 is still willing to walk with her. For Lindsay, everything 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:41.640 about this case has been loaded with ambivalence, and that 0:08:41.760 --> 0:08:45.600 now includes Catherine's charges being dismissed and her ongoing civil commitment. 0:08:46.640 --> 0:08:49.400 You know, I go out anywhere and I think, oh, 0:08:49.440 --> 0:08:52.120 you know, I see those cute earrings that will look 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:56.640 good on Catherine, and you realize, you know, she wears 0:08:57.080 --> 0:08:59.560 basically prison guard I mean, you know, we've bought her 0:08:59.600 --> 0:09:04.720 some she has for a coat because the board gets 0:09:04.720 --> 0:09:07.920 so cold, so her dad got that. And I've sent 0:09:07.960 --> 0:09:10.040 her things like that. I've sent her like, you know, 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:17.800 books like puzzle type books. But it's like being in prison. 0:09:19.360 --> 0:09:19.560 You know. 0:09:19.840 --> 0:09:25.080 But as a friend of mine said, she's warm, she's safe. 0:09:25.320 --> 0:09:27.680 I mean, within reasons, I can't. You know, it's it's 0:09:27.720 --> 0:09:29.880 just tard some of the patients that she has to 0:09:29.920 --> 0:09:35.959 deal with, you know, it's it's it's not any kind 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:36.960 of existence. 0:09:37.000 --> 0:09:43.560 Really, do you have any sense of what her day 0:09:43.600 --> 0:09:45.000 to day life is like right now? 0:09:45.840 --> 0:09:48.600 They're very strict. I mean all along, they're like, we're 0:09:48.640 --> 0:09:52.600 not gonna let her have extra privileges because it's high profile, 0:09:52.760 --> 0:09:56.439 like I I'll expect you to, you know. I mean, 0:09:56.440 --> 0:09:58.920 they have different activities. I mean, but they don't have 0:09:59.760 --> 0:10:02.920 real privileges of any sort. I mean, people think that 0:10:02.960 --> 0:10:05.400 they're living a luxury life. They don't have the internet. 0:10:05.559 --> 0:10:11.080 They have restricted television and restricted movies when it's COVID lockdown. 0:10:11.120 --> 0:10:15.360 They can only move around on their ward. It has 0:10:15.400 --> 0:10:17.600 access to an outdoor area, but it has to be 0:10:17.720 --> 0:10:18.320 warm enough. 0:10:20.360 --> 0:10:23.320 Lindsay's primary goal now is to get Catherine the help 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:24.880 she believes she needs. 0:10:25.160 --> 0:10:27.560 You know, she may be released. I don't think that 0:10:27.640 --> 0:10:32.760 the court has that they have a you know, much 0:10:32.880 --> 0:10:37.080 choice at some part, you know. And my only comment 0:10:37.120 --> 0:10:43.199 to her was if you're released in any you know, program, 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:46.440 which you never know, but I would hope they would 0:10:46.480 --> 0:10:51.920 have like a step down, you know, integration into normal life. 0:10:53.280 --> 0:10:55.360 I said, it's not okay for you to be released 0:10:55.400 --> 0:11:00.000 without knowing what happened to Sarah Jacob, and so she'll 0:11:00.000 --> 0:11:03.720 always says nothing happened. And I said, well, then without 0:11:03.800 --> 0:11:08.959 knowing where Sarah Jacob Barr you know, good, bad or ugly. 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:12.520 We just it's time. It's become where it's cruel not 0:11:12.640 --> 0:11:25.800 to tell us, but. 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:28.760 That hope that Catherine will one day lead people to 0:11:28.840 --> 0:11:32.960 the kids. It's not easy to hold on to that hope. 0:11:33.240 --> 0:11:35.280 Does she imagine a world or does she talk about 0:11:35.280 --> 0:11:37.600 a world in which she's reunited with all three children 0:11:40.800 --> 0:11:42.640 she has she. 0:11:42.679 --> 0:11:48.680 Has, you know, and part of that has been me 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:53.480 saying you understand that you know, if the charges are dropped, 0:11:53.880 --> 0:11:56.680 it's not just you're free to go get the children 0:11:56.760 --> 0:12:00.000 and raise your children. And I'm not sure how much 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:05.280 of that is in her disorder thinking and how much 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:05.680 is real. 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:10.959 But the question of where Sarah and Jacob or their 0:12:11.000 --> 0:12:15.080 remains might be, or Catherine's continued insistence that they are 0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:19.000 still alive, or even that Catherine is pretending to be delusional, 0:12:19.800 --> 0:12:22.440 those aren't the most pressing fears Troy and Stephanie have 0:12:22.559 --> 0:12:22.960 right now. 0:12:24.080 --> 0:12:26.720 We're probably more terrified right now than we've ever been. 0:12:27.679 --> 0:12:30.280 The idea that Catherine might look to reunite with her 0:12:30.320 --> 0:12:33.520 oldest son, to seek him out in any way, is 0:12:33.559 --> 0:12:36.439 a worry that keeps them up at night ruminating about 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:39.720 all of the awful possibilities. I mean, what can you 0:12:40.200 --> 0:12:43.040 even do at this point. 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:46.200 I mean, I'm with him almost all the time, you know. 0:12:47.200 --> 0:12:49.400 I mean, he obviously goes to school and stuff. But 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.760 you know, we have safety plans in place at this school. 0:12:53.000 --> 0:12:54.800 You know, for years, I've been doing, you know, a 0:12:54.840 --> 0:12:57.079 lot of things to keep him protected. 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:00.520 But it's it's. 0:13:00.160 --> 0:13:05.760 Hard, and I know that she wants to reconcile with him. 0:13:05.800 --> 0:13:08.199 There's absolutely no reason she's not going to try to 0:13:08.200 --> 0:13:09.880 show up somewhere where he is, Like I don't, I 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:11.000 don't necessarily think she's going to. 0:13:11.040 --> 0:13:12.680 Show up at my front door where she knows I 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:13.400 am or something. 0:13:14.320 --> 0:13:18.080 But if she can figure out somewhere where she thinks 0:13:18.080 --> 0:13:20.080 he might be, there's nothing to stop her from showing up. 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:22.000 I mean, what's gonna stop her? What? The police may 0:13:22.040 --> 0:13:25.559 come and then what and say stop? Or we'll say 0:13:25.559 --> 0:13:26.160 stop again. 0:13:27.320 --> 0:13:29.040 So now you just have to deal with a huge 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:31.520 amount of fear that compounds the grief you've already been 0:13:31.520 --> 0:13:33.200 living in for years. 0:13:34.120 --> 0:13:36.040 Do you think you could get a protective order, a 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:38.080 kind of like a permanent order. 0:13:38.160 --> 0:13:40.800 There's no there's no way to for I mean, think 0:13:40.840 --> 0:13:45.040 about it, if I mean batter women who have been 0:13:45.120 --> 0:13:46.640 beat up and put in the hospital can't get a 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:50.080 protective order until they're damn near killed. That's why you 0:13:50.120 --> 0:13:52.280 have women who die in those situation, you know, because 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:54.480 nobody wants to do nothing until something already happens. 0:13:54.720 --> 0:13:55.600 It's the same thing. 0:14:00.040 --> 0:14:03.160 These feelings of powerlessness, of being forced to sit on 0:14:03.240 --> 0:14:06.240 his hands to wait for another very bad thing to happen, 0:14:06.960 --> 0:14:10.200 is part of a propelled Troy to pursue legislative change. 0:14:10.880 --> 0:14:13.280 We try to change it going forward for other families 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:16.040 and other people, other victims. We try to change it 0:14:16.040 --> 0:14:19.640 hopefully at some point going forward for us. So I mean, 0:14:19.640 --> 0:14:22.200 where we're at is is we have to get this 0:14:22.320 --> 0:14:25.640 changed and fix it so other people don't go through 0:14:25.680 --> 0:14:29.000 it this way. I saw a reporter speaking about it, 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:32.960 and the anchor asked him what you know, So what 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:35.320 is the state going to make sure this doesn't happen again? 0:14:35.400 --> 0:14:37.200 And he just kind of stopped. He said, well nothing. 0:14:37.280 --> 0:14:41.240 He was like, in the current system, this could happen 0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:42.000 over and over again. 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:50.960 My name's Troy Turner. I want to thank you guys 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:52.000 for hearing me out. First. 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:56.640 I'm the father of three children. Two of them were 0:14:56.720 --> 0:14:58.880 murdered by their mother at ages two and three. 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:03.200 In April twenty twenty three, Troy was back at the 0:15:03.240 --> 0:15:07.280 state House in Annapolis to push for reform. His bill 0:15:07.360 --> 0:15:09.880 had been passed through a Senate committee and he was 0:15:09.960 --> 0:15:13.320 now appearing before a House committee. He was given two 0:15:13.400 --> 0:15:14.760 minutes to make his case. 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:16.200 One by one. 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:18.520 She took my kids by age youngest to oldest at 0:15:18.520 --> 0:15:20.680 age two, age three, and then my five year old. 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:23.520 Thank god, she was stopped before she got him. He's 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:27.160 still a miner, and I am terrified that she's going 0:15:27.200 --> 0:15:30.000 to get out and come after him. Like I said, 0:15:30.040 --> 0:15:32.160 she's under a civil commitment, so that could be at 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:36.040 any point in time. We just want to fix what 0:15:36.320 --> 0:15:38.000 was broken by accident. 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:41.880 Troy wasn't the only person who spoke that day in 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:44.520 support of the bill. 0:15:44.760 --> 0:15:48.280 Senate Bill five oh seven is necessary to protect public safety, 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.119 but it also continues to protect the rights of defendants 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:51.960 with disabilities. 0:15:52.960 --> 0:15:56.720 That's Tracy Varda of the Baltimore City State's Attorney's Office. 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:00.160 She runs the mental health courts in Baltimore City on 0:16:00.280 --> 0:16:01.680 behalf of her office. 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:05.040 So this tenuere provision needs to be reinstated for the 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:09.120 following reasons. First of all, currently Criminal Procedure three one 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:13.480 oh seven's allows dangerous defendants to walk free. Second reason, 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:16.440 ten years will allow more time for dangerous defendants to 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:19.920 receive treatment and become confident. Thirdly, this bill protects the 0:16:19.960 --> 0:16:23.840 defendants rights. Importantly, the judge still retains the right to 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:27.880 dismiss any charges at any time the court believes is unjust, 0:16:27.960 --> 0:16:30.760 and this only applies to us defendants. 0:16:31.920 --> 0:16:34.920 There was also opposition to changing the statute. 0:16:35.600 --> 0:16:39.160 My name is Mary Piso. I'm the Supervising attorney for 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:41.840 the Forensic Mental Health Division of the Office of the 0:16:41.880 --> 0:16:45.960 Public Defender, and I'm respectfully requesting that the committee issue 0:16:45.960 --> 0:16:50.000 an unfavorable report on Senate Bill five h seven. 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:54.520 Mary Piso of the Public Defender's Office was calling in 0:16:54.560 --> 0:16:58.360 from her car. It's her job to provide legal counsel 0:16:58.480 --> 0:17:02.080 and advocacy for people with mental health issues who are 0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:05.840 involved in the criminal justice system, and she worried that 0:17:06.000 --> 0:17:09.280 changes to this bill would lead to an erosion of 0:17:09.359 --> 0:17:13.480 rights for defendants, not an increase in rights for victims. 0:17:14.080 --> 0:17:17.840 The amendments to Criminal Procedure three one oh seven are unnecessary, 0:17:17.880 --> 0:17:23.480 clinically inappropriate, and inconsistent with constitutional principles regarding those deemed 0:17:23.520 --> 0:17:27.280 and competent to stand trial, tying a further increase in 0:17:27.359 --> 0:17:30.439 length of hospitalization into the severity of the crime is 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:34.680 based on a rationale punishment rather than treatment, even though 0:17:34.720 --> 0:17:38.080 these individuals have not yet and in fact may never 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:40.159 be convicted of any crime. 0:17:42.520 --> 0:17:45.119 But in the end, it was a father's grief that 0:17:45.280 --> 0:17:50.119 echoed through the chamber. One man against a system determined 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:54.879 to create purpose from his personal tragedy, no matter how painful. 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:58.720 I'll be very honest with you. It's not easy for 0:17:58.760 --> 0:17:59.920 me to come here and relive this. 0:18:00.760 --> 0:18:04.200 Even if changing this statute could never turn back the clock. 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:06.720 I've been doing it over the past few years. I've 0:18:06.720 --> 0:18:09.120 been here several times. Please do not make me come 0:18:09.160 --> 0:18:12.120 back again and do this. Please fix this while you can. 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:13.800 It needs to be fixed now. 0:18:15.400 --> 0:18:18.600 I heard later that when Troy spoke, some of the 0:18:18.640 --> 0:18:24.320 committee members had tears in their eyes, but in the 0:18:24.480 --> 0:18:29.080 end it didn't matter. In late April, Matt emailed, he 0:18:29.160 --> 0:18:32.880 said the bill didn't pass the House. Everyone's a little 0:18:32.920 --> 0:18:36.879 worn down right now. He said, this was the last 0:18:36.880 --> 0:19:02.320 major card Troy had to play. For now nothing would change. 0:19:02.520 --> 0:19:04.600 For the next few months. It was hard for Beth 0:19:04.640 --> 0:19:07.200 Andet to get Troy and Stephanie on the phone. Matt 0:19:07.240 --> 0:19:10.320 told us they needed a break. They seemed more insular 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:14.320 in their grief, more exhausted by so many defeats, less 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:18.560 galvanized by the fight, and less convinced that putting everything 0:19:18.600 --> 0:19:21.960 out there, sharing the intimate details of the horror they've 0:19:22.000 --> 0:19:24.920 been living with for nine years, was going to help 0:19:24.960 --> 0:19:29.240 them move forward in any way. How have you sort 0:19:29.280 --> 0:19:33.399 of how are you channeling things right now, but eventually 0:19:33.520 --> 0:19:35.280 in August we did connect. 0:19:36.240 --> 0:19:38.880 So we keep in touch with our PI and see 0:19:38.880 --> 0:19:41.480 if there's anything that we can run with him, if 0:19:41.520 --> 0:19:42.920 we can come up with searches. 0:19:43.760 --> 0:19:46.159 For years, Troy had been working with a private investigator 0:19:46.160 --> 0:19:48.879 who ran his own searches for the kids, followed up leads, 0:19:49.119 --> 0:19:51.880 all pro bono. He wasn't able to turn up much 0:19:51.920 --> 0:19:55.240 that the police didn't already know in this case, it's 0:19:55.240 --> 0:19:56.560 been all dead ends. 0:19:57.800 --> 0:20:00.000 Stephanie god bless. 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:02.280 Now she does it, but she mans the page, you know, 0:20:02.400 --> 0:20:05.520 and she talks to people and puts stuff out there, 0:20:06.520 --> 0:20:11.040 just stuff like that. We're going to be fighting obviously, 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:15.600 you know, to get law changes done, and as new 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:19.439 information comes up, then whenever appropriate, we'll run searches. We're 0:20:19.520 --> 0:20:22.720 looking for new ways to search. We're looking at I 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:25.040 don't even remember what the initials are, but we're trying 0:20:25.040 --> 0:20:26.440 to look into some kind of. 0:20:28.400 --> 0:20:28.600 Heat. 0:20:30.080 --> 0:20:32.920 Yeah, it's like you know what, you know what I'm 0:20:32.960 --> 0:20:34.879 talking about. I just can't think of it off the 0:20:34.880 --> 0:20:35.159 top of. 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:40.120 Initials, that thing. So, I mean, we're looking at new ways. 0:20:40.240 --> 0:20:43.119 But and I think that's just it, like none of 0:20:43.160 --> 0:20:46.240 it has to do with just you know, throwing pictures 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:48.680 out there and hoping someone saw something. At this point, 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:54.000 because it's that's for lack of bedroom. That's pretty useless 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:56.960 to us at this point, because it's just it's that's 0:20:57.040 --> 0:21:00.680 been done, you know, for nine years now. It's we've 0:21:00.720 --> 0:21:04.240 talked to people who have viable stories. We've talked to 0:21:04.280 --> 0:21:07.640 people who are just crazy. We've talked to people who 0:21:08.280 --> 0:21:10.760 quite frankly, don't mean any malice or trying to get 0:21:10.760 --> 0:21:13.080 false leaves, but they just really want to help so bad. 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:17.360 When they see something that maybe possibly could have been 0:21:17.960 --> 0:21:21.359 halfway coincidental, then they make it something that it wasn't 0:21:21.359 --> 0:21:23.320 because they want to help so bad. 0:21:26.240 --> 0:21:30.040 It's counterintuitive, but the overwhelming public involvement in this case, 0:21:30.320 --> 0:21:34.000 the generation of thousands of leads, many from people who 0:21:34.040 --> 0:21:38.359 believe they're helping, actually complicates things for the family and 0:21:38.440 --> 0:21:40.919 maybe for any future prosecution of Catherine. 0:21:41.359 --> 0:21:43.399 Well, now that's all stuff that either we have to 0:21:43.480 --> 0:21:45.920 run out or let's say they do rearrest Catherine. Let's 0:21:45.920 --> 0:21:48.360 say they actually get to a point where they're pressing charges. 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:52.119 Well, we just gave her her case for a reasonable doubt. 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:55.800 Because there's a thousand leads that were never run. There's 0:21:55.920 --> 0:21:57.520 ten thousand leads that were never run. 0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:00.960 That's Troy and Stephanie's friend and lawyer, Matt Right. 0:22:01.520 --> 0:22:03.680 But I'm saying there's a thousand newer ones even. 0:22:03.760 --> 0:22:06.520 You know, every time there's a news story, they get 0:22:06.520 --> 0:22:08.240 a call from Australia and the same time they get 0:22:08.240 --> 0:22:09.120 a call from Scotland. 0:22:09.280 --> 0:22:09.880 I see the kids. 0:22:09.920 --> 0:22:12.360 Yeah, we've had several leads in Scotland. 0:22:18.119 --> 0:22:20.720 Do you think that Catherine will ever tell you what 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:22.000 happened to the kids that night? 0:22:22.400 --> 0:22:26.639 No? I don't think she will. There's no there's nothing 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:27.359 in it for her. 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:27.639 To do it. 0:22:30.000 --> 0:22:33.520 For years, as Troy has advocated for Catherine to be prosecuted, 0:22:33.840 --> 0:22:36.880 he's made clear that he's not simply seeking to punish her, 0:22:37.320 --> 0:22:40.160 that his desire for a trial isn't just about vengeance. 0:22:41.359 --> 0:22:45.000 Troy believes that the threat of prison, real prison, not 0:22:45.160 --> 0:22:48.880 being confined in a high security psychiatric facility, is the 0:22:48.920 --> 0:22:51.679 only thing that might finally push Catherine to reveal what 0:22:51.720 --> 0:22:54.160 happened the night of September seventh, twenty fourteen. 0:22:55.000 --> 0:22:57.040 She says she's not safe in jail. 0:22:57.560 --> 0:23:00.680 And now that crucial piece of leverage is all but God. 0:23:01.160 --> 0:23:04.880 There's really no one pressing her in order for it 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:09.480 to even happen the institution itself. Of the course, you know, 0:23:09.560 --> 0:23:13.560