1
00:00:03,800 --> 00:00:10,640
Speaker 1: Well, the record, Anthony mws N twenty sixth District, I

2
00:00:10,720 --> 00:00:13,000
Speaker 1: get the sixties and seven is mixed up, but this

3
00:00:13,039 --> 00:00:16,279
Speaker 1: is five O seven and this is the one that

4
00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:18,520
Speaker 1: would extend the amount of time that the court can

5
00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:22,160
Speaker 1: dismiss the charge of a defendant who is incompetent to

6
00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:26,840
Speaker 1: stand trial and who was charged with first degree murder

7
00:00:27,560 --> 00:00:28,760
Speaker 1: or sexual assault.

8
00:00:30,720 --> 00:00:34,880
Speaker 2: In March twenty twenty three, Maryland State Senator Anthony Muse

9
00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:38,919
Speaker 2: was introducing a new bill SB five oh seven to

10
00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:41,360
Speaker 2: a Senate committee in Annapolis.

11
00:00:41,840 --> 00:00:46,559
Speaker 1: It changes that time period from five years to a

12
00:00:46,680 --> 00:00:51,400
Speaker 1: reasonable time of ten years. And also this legislation would

13
00:00:51,400 --> 00:00:55,400
Speaker 1: allow the actual victim or the victim's representative to petition

14
00:00:55,520 --> 00:00:59,080
Speaker 1: the court to extend the time for dismissal of certain

15
00:00:59,560 --> 00:01:04,200
Speaker 1: charges against a defendant who is found incompetent to stand trial.

16
00:01:06,120 --> 00:01:09,360
Speaker 2: This bill is in direct response to what Troy Turner

17
00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,279
Speaker 2: and his family have been going through.

18
00:01:12,200 --> 00:01:16,839
Speaker 1: So the question comes why is this important? This legislation

19
00:01:16,920 --> 00:01:20,560
Speaker 1: is important because of the victims, like my panelists from

20
00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:24,639
Speaker 1: whom you hear mister Troy Turner, who must have a voice,

21
00:01:25,200 --> 00:01:27,720
Speaker 1: and I think once you hear his story today, you'll

22
00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:32,640
Speaker 1: understand why we need this bill.

23
00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,840
Speaker 2: Troy is sitting in the gallery waiting his turn to speak,

24
00:01:36,120 --> 00:01:39,959
Speaker 2: wearing his signature uniform, a T shirt with pictures of

25
00:01:40,000 --> 00:01:41,760
Speaker 2: a smiling Sarah and Jacob.

26
00:01:42,520 --> 00:01:44,760
Speaker 3: I guess before I get into the story in the

27
00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:48,240
Speaker 3: first for the record, mister, my name's Troy Turner, my

28
00:01:48,400 --> 00:01:49,920
Speaker 3: father of Sarah Jacob Hoggle.

29
00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,200
Speaker 4: So you may not already know who they are.

30
00:01:52,760 --> 00:01:55,640
Speaker 3: There are my two children who were taken and their

31
00:01:55,680 --> 00:01:56,600
Speaker 3: mother murdered them.

32
00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:01,440
Speaker 2: After the crushing disappointment of the murder charges against Catherine

33
00:02:01,480 --> 00:02:04,760
Speaker 2: being dismissed, this feels like a way for Troy to

34
00:02:04,840 --> 00:02:06,120
Speaker 2: keep his fight alive.

35
00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:11,079
Speaker 3: I've been trying to find them ever since, to bring

36
00:02:11,120 --> 00:02:13,040
Speaker 3: them home for a peaceful rest.

37
00:02:14,040 --> 00:02:17,680
Speaker 2: Today, Catherine is still living at Perkins, but she's only

38
00:02:17,680 --> 00:02:22,280
Speaker 2: committed civilly, not criminally, which means that in time, if

39
00:02:22,400 --> 00:02:26,560
Speaker 2: doctors sign off, she could eventually leave the psychiatric hospital

40
00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:29,559
Speaker 2: and begin to ease back into life on the outside.

41
00:02:30,440 --> 00:02:33,640
Speaker 2: We reached out to Catherine, both directly and through her lawyer,

42
00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:35,520
Speaker 2: and never heard back from her.

43
00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,239
Speaker 3: I have a son now, who was sixth at Simon

44
00:02:39,320 --> 00:02:43,560
Speaker 3: is now fourteen, and very soon I figure we're going

45
00:02:43,600 --> 00:02:46,760
Speaker 3: to have to sit down and tell him that as

46
00:02:46,800 --> 00:02:50,000
Speaker 3: her third intended victim to police believe and we know

47
00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:50,720
Speaker 3: she was.

48
00:02:50,680 --> 00:02:51,680
Speaker 4: Coming back for him.

49
00:02:53,440 --> 00:02:57,080
Speaker 2: Troy wants a ten year window of incompetency before murder

50
00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:00,240
Speaker 2: charges can be dismissed. In fact, there was a ten

51
00:03:00,280 --> 00:03:04,040
Speaker 2: year window for capital crimes, including murder, until the State

52
00:03:04,080 --> 00:03:07,400
Speaker 2: of Maryland repealed the death penalty in twenty thirteen.

53
00:03:08,680 --> 00:03:11,040
Speaker 3: As her third and tended victim, We're going to have

54
00:03:11,040 --> 00:03:12,560
Speaker 3: to sit him down and tell him that she's out

55
00:03:12,600 --> 00:03:16,040
Speaker 3: there at some point. From everyone who I've spoken to,

56
00:03:16,120 --> 00:03:17,799
Speaker 3: it doesn't seem like it's going to be very long.

57
00:03:17,880 --> 00:03:24,080
Speaker 2: Quayfrank Troy believes this expanded timeframe would have given Perkins

58
00:03:24,120 --> 00:03:27,360
Speaker 2: more time to treat Catherine or catch on to any

59
00:03:27,400 --> 00:03:32,000
Speaker 2: deliberate efforts she may have taken to remain deemed incompetent.

60
00:03:32,960 --> 00:03:36,320
Speaker 3: We're basically just asking to fix that oversight and put

61
00:03:36,360 --> 00:03:38,760
Speaker 3: the ten year period back for the egregious acts that

62
00:03:38,800 --> 00:03:44,520
Speaker 3: would be capital offenses. As the law now stands, it's

63
00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:47,760
Speaker 3: pretty much just the same bar if you murder two

64
00:03:47,880 --> 00:03:50,240
Speaker 3: children or if you still a fifteen hundred dollars.

65
00:03:50,080 --> 00:04:02,480
Speaker 2: Television I'm Beth Karris, and this is unrestorable. An original

66
00:04:02,520 --> 00:04:08,560
Speaker 2: podcast from Anonymous content and iHeartRadio.

67
00:04:16,279 --> 00:04:20,240
Speaker 3: It's weird because you know something's coming, but it's almost

68
00:04:20,279 --> 00:04:23,520
Speaker 3: like if you have an elder in your family who's

69
00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:24,880
Speaker 3: been sick for a long time and you know they're

70
00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,359
Speaker 3: going to die, but then when they pass, it's like

71
00:04:27,400 --> 00:04:29,599
Speaker 3: you're still never really prepared, even though you knew it

72
00:04:29,640 --> 00:04:33,680
Speaker 3: was coming. It was kind of like that we knew

73
00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,240
Speaker 3: what was coming, but the feelings still hit. The anger

74
00:04:37,320 --> 00:04:42,520
Speaker 3: is still there, the disappointment in the system.

75
00:04:44,160 --> 00:04:47,000
Speaker 5: When Beth and I met with Troy, his wife Stephanie,

76
00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:49,880
Speaker 5: and Matt Alegi in Matt's suburban law office after the

77
00:04:50,000 --> 00:04:53,080
Speaker 5: charges against Catherine were dismissed, the three of them looked

78
00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:56,280
Speaker 5: tired and defeated, like they hadn't slept for months.

79
00:04:57,440 --> 00:04:59,120
Speaker 4: I feel like I let downsair in Jacob.

80
00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:05,040
Speaker 5: Troy, typically gregarious, was subdued, a ball cap pulled low

81
00:05:05,120 --> 00:05:09,400
Speaker 5: over his eyes. Stephanie, always warm and a bit high strung,

82
00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:12,599
Speaker 5: was doubly anxious and appeared to be subsisting on mostly

83
00:05:12,720 --> 00:05:16,440
Speaker 5: energy drinks. Matt seemed unsure of what might be helpful.

84
00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:22,120
Speaker 5: They were lost, unmoored, and now facing a terrible prospect

85
00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:25,599
Speaker 5: grappling with the grief they've been caring for almost a

86
00:05:25,680 --> 00:05:29,000
Speaker 5: decade in the absence of a clear purpose.

87
00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:34,479
Speaker 6: Having the charges dismissed, and we have lots of you

88
00:05:34,600 --> 00:05:38,240
Speaker 6: on record about how devastating it is. But does does

89
00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,240
Speaker 6: the advocacy feel different, Like does it feel like you're

90
00:05:41,240 --> 00:05:43,360
Speaker 6: coming at this from a totally different place or does

91
00:05:43,400 --> 00:05:46,320
Speaker 6: it feel like you're still just every day more of

92
00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:46,800
Speaker 6: the same.

93
00:05:46,960 --> 00:05:50,920
Speaker 3: For Sarah and Jacob, I don't think those two were

94
00:05:51,000 --> 00:05:53,080
Speaker 3: like exclusive from each other.

95
00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:54,760
Speaker 4: I mean it's like kind of both.

96
00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,560
Speaker 3: I mean it's it's you know, we have a lot

97
00:05:57,600 --> 00:06:01,839
Speaker 3: of the same conversations, but then it extends into things

98
00:06:01,839 --> 00:06:03,920
Speaker 3: like protecting our family, protecting our son.

99
00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:08,680
Speaker 4: So now it's like where do we go from there?

100
00:06:08,720 --> 00:06:09,560
Speaker 4: In terms of I.

101
00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:11,479
Speaker 3: Mean, she can't get questioned or anything, you know what

102
00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,960
Speaker 3: I mean, Like there's there's really no recourse because the

103
00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:18,000
Speaker 3: only person who really knows what happened right at this

104
00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:21,000
Speaker 3: point it is her, and the only people who may

105
00:06:21,120 --> 00:06:23,880
Speaker 3: know something would be the people who were around her then,

106
00:06:24,800 --> 00:06:28,559
Speaker 3: So it's kind of like, Okay, so we really don't

107
00:06:28,600 --> 00:06:31,080
Speaker 3: have any way to even go after information at that

108
00:06:31,200 --> 00:06:35,560
Speaker 3: point other than just advocating trying to figure out kind

109
00:06:35,600 --> 00:06:38,600
Speaker 3: of just off ways to put pressure or I mean,

110
00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:40,280
Speaker 3: it's like I don't even know what to do at

111
00:06:40,279 --> 00:06:43,760
Speaker 3: that point. So it's you know, at that point, you know, Matt, Stephanie, myself,

112
00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:45,400
Speaker 3: we have to sit down and go Okay, so now

113
00:06:45,440 --> 00:06:47,800
Speaker 3: where do we go from here to me?

114
00:06:47,920 --> 00:06:48,320
Speaker 4: Anyway?

115
00:06:48,360 --> 00:06:51,080
Speaker 3: Like I feel almost like I'm I'm like lost, Like

116
00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:52,800
Speaker 3: I'm like on this trip and now I'm in the

117
00:06:52,800 --> 00:06:54,760
Speaker 3: middle of nowhere, not quite sure which way to go

118
00:06:54,839 --> 00:06:56,760
Speaker 3: at that point, but I know I got to go somewhere.

119
00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,000
Speaker 5: Troy is particularly worried that you might not be notified

120
00:07:01,040 --> 00:07:04,120
Speaker 5: about Catherine's potential release, that she might be moved to

121
00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:06,520
Speaker 5: a lower security unit and try to escape.

122
00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:10,760
Speaker 3: So it goes to a civil commitment for Catherine, which

123
00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:15,280
Speaker 3: means we are supposedly going to get updates if she's

124
00:07:15,440 --> 00:07:18,640
Speaker 3: kind of I believe she's moved facilities, if she dies,

125
00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:21,679
Speaker 3: there's certain things we would get updates on, the State's

126
00:07:21,680 --> 00:07:26,200
Speaker 3: Attorney's office. The police don't get updates on anything. We're

127
00:07:26,240 --> 00:07:28,080
Speaker 3: not so sure. You know, we don't have a lot

128
00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:30,920
Speaker 3: of faith in the system at this point, much less

129
00:07:31,040 --> 00:07:34,000
Speaker 3: in Perkins that they're going to be held accountable for anything.

130
00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:38,800
Speaker 3: So we're hoping that We're kept abreast of what's going on,

131
00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:40,880
Speaker 3: so that that allows us to keep the people around

132
00:07:40,920 --> 00:07:44,880
Speaker 3: us safe. Once she's seemed not dangerous, then she will

133
00:07:44,920 --> 00:07:49,640
Speaker 3: walk out those doors, and she could move next door

134
00:07:49,640 --> 00:07:50,560
Speaker 3: to you. You wouldn't know it.

135
00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:55,679
Speaker 5: Catherine would have to go through a lot of doors

136
00:07:55,720 --> 00:07:58,480
Speaker 5: before she could move out on her own. She still

137
00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:00,760
Speaker 5: has to be found not a danger to herself or

138
00:08:00,800 --> 00:08:03,840
Speaker 5: others and be put on a discharge plan. The state

139
00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,520
Speaker 5: could also bring charges against her down the road once

140
00:08:06,560 --> 00:08:11,040
Speaker 5: she's been found sufficiently competent for release. It's worth noting

141
00:08:11,040 --> 00:08:13,560
Speaker 5: that Perkins has since updated their policy on one on

142
00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:16,400
Speaker 5: one therapy for patients, but the new guidelines note that

143
00:08:16,440 --> 00:08:20,760
Speaker 5: the hospital quote endeavors to protect incompetent to stand trial

144
00:08:20,920 --> 00:08:24,760
Speaker 5: and pre trial patients from any adverse legal consequences that

145
00:08:24,880 --> 00:08:30,440
Speaker 5: may arise out of individual therapy. It's a long and

146
00:08:30,480 --> 00:08:34,079
Speaker 5: potentially difficult road, but it's one that Catherine's mother, Lindsay,

147
00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:38,440
Speaker 5: is still willing to walk with her. For Lindsay, everything

148
00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:41,640
Speaker 5: about this case has been loaded with ambivalence, and that

149
00:08:41,760 --> 00:08:45,600
Speaker 5: now includes Catherine's charges being dismissed and her ongoing civil commitment.

150
00:08:46,640 --> 00:08:49,400
Speaker 7: You know, I go out anywhere and I think, oh,

151
00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:52,120
Speaker 7: you know, I see those cute earrings that will look

152
00:08:52,160 --> 00:08:56,640
Speaker 7: good on Catherine, and you realize, you know, she wears

153
00:08:57,080 --> 00:08:59,560
Speaker 7: basically prison guard I mean, you know, we've bought her

154
00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:04,720
Speaker 7: some she has for a coat because the board gets

155
00:09:04,720 --> 00:09:07,920
Speaker 7: so cold, so her dad got that. And I've sent

156
00:09:07,960 --> 00:09:10,040
Speaker 7: her things like that. I've sent her like, you know,

157
00:09:11,040 --> 00:09:17,800
Speaker 7: books like puzzle type books. But it's like being in prison.

158
00:09:19,360 --> 00:09:19,560
Speaker 4: You know.

159
00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:25,080
Speaker 7: But as a friend of mine said, she's warm, she's safe.

160
00:09:25,320 --> 00:09:27,680
Speaker 7: I mean, within reasons, I can't. You know, it's it's

161
00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:29,880
Speaker 7: just tard some of the patients that she has to

162
00:09:29,920 --> 00:09:35,959
Speaker 7: deal with, you know, it's it's it's not any kind

163
00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:36,960
Speaker 7: of existence.

164
00:09:37,000 --> 00:09:43,560
Speaker 6: Really, do you have any sense of what her day

165
00:09:43,600 --> 00:09:45,000
Speaker 6: to day life is like right now?

166
00:09:45,840 --> 00:09:48,600
Speaker 7: They're very strict. I mean all along, they're like, we're

167
00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,600
Speaker 7: not gonna let her have extra privileges because it's high profile,

168
00:09:52,760 --> 00:09:56,439
Speaker 7: like I I'll expect you to, you know. I mean,

169
00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:58,920
Speaker 7: they have different activities. I mean, but they don't have

170
00:09:59,760 --> 00:10:02,920
Speaker 7: real privileges of any sort. I mean, people think that

171
00:10:02,960 --> 00:10:05,400
Speaker 7: they're living a luxury life. They don't have the internet.

172
00:10:05,559 --> 00:10:11,080
Speaker 7: They have restricted television and restricted movies when it's COVID lockdown.

173
00:10:11,120 --> 00:10:15,360
Speaker 7: They can only move around on their ward. It has

174
00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,600
Speaker 7: access to an outdoor area, but it has to be

175
00:10:17,720 --> 00:10:18,320
Speaker 7: warm enough.

176
00:10:20,360 --> 00:10:23,320
Speaker 5: Lindsay's primary goal now is to get Catherine the help

177
00:10:23,400 --> 00:10:24,880
Speaker 5: she believes she needs.

178
00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,560
Speaker 7: You know, she may be released. I don't think that

179
00:10:27,640 --> 00:10:32,760
Speaker 7: the court has that they have a you know, much

180
00:10:32,880 --> 00:10:37,080
Speaker 7: choice at some part, you know. And my only comment

181
00:10:37,120 --> 00:10:43,199
Speaker 7: to her was if you're released in any you know, program,

182
00:10:43,720 --> 00:10:46,440
Speaker 7: which you never know, but I would hope they would

183
00:10:46,480 --> 00:10:51,920
Speaker 7: have like a step down, you know, integration into normal life.

184
00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:55,360
Speaker 7: I said, it's not okay for you to be released

185
00:10:55,400 --> 00:11:00,000
Speaker 7: without knowing what happened to Sarah Jacob, and so she'll

186
00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:03,720
Speaker 7: always says nothing happened. And I said, well, then without

187
00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:08,959
Speaker 7: knowing where Sarah Jacob Barr you know, good, bad or ugly.

188
00:11:09,080 --> 00:11:12,520
Speaker 7: We just it's time. It's become where it's cruel not

189
00:11:12,640 --> 00:11:25,800
Speaker 7: to tell us, but.

190
00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:28,760
Speaker 5: That hope that Catherine will one day lead people to

191
00:11:28,840 --> 00:11:32,960
Speaker 5: the kids. It's not easy to hold on to that hope.

192
00:11:33,240 --> 00:11:35,280
Speaker 5: Does she imagine a world or does she talk about

193
00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,600
Speaker 5: a world in which she's reunited with all three children

194
00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:42,640
Speaker 5: she has she.

195
00:11:42,679 --> 00:11:48,680
Speaker 7: Has, you know, and part of that has been me

196
00:11:48,800 --> 00:11:53,480
Speaker 7: saying you understand that you know, if the charges are dropped,

197
00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,680
Speaker 7: it's not just you're free to go get the children

198
00:11:56,760 --> 00:12:00,000
Speaker 7: and raise your children. And I'm not sure how much

199
00:12:00,080 --> 00:12:05,280
Speaker 7: of that is in her disorder thinking and how much

200
00:12:05,360 --> 00:12:05,680
Speaker 7: is real.

201
00:12:08,400 --> 00:12:10,959
Speaker 5: But the question of where Sarah and Jacob or their

202
00:12:11,000 --> 00:12:15,080
Speaker 5: remains might be, or Catherine's continued insistence that they are

203
00:12:15,120 --> 00:12:19,000
Speaker 5: still alive, or even that Catherine is pretending to be delusional,

204
00:12:19,800 --> 00:12:22,440
Speaker 5: those aren't the most pressing fears Troy and Stephanie have

205
00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:22,960
Speaker 5: right now.

206
00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:26,720
Speaker 8: We're probably more terrified right now than we've ever been.

207
00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,280
Speaker 5: The idea that Catherine might look to reunite with her

208
00:12:30,320 --> 00:12:33,520
Speaker 5: oldest son, to seek him out in any way, is

209
00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,439
Speaker 5: a worry that keeps them up at night ruminating about

210
00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,720
Speaker 5: all of the awful possibilities. I mean, what can you

211
00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,040
Speaker 5: even do at this point.

212
00:12:43,320 --> 00:12:46,200
Speaker 8: I mean, I'm with him almost all the time, you know.

213
00:12:47,200 --> 00:12:49,400
Speaker 8: I mean, he obviously goes to school and stuff. But

214
00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,760
Speaker 8: you know, we have safety plans in place at this school.

215
00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:54,800
Speaker 8: You know, for years, I've been doing, you know, a

216
00:12:54,840 --> 00:12:57,079
Speaker 8: lot of things to keep him protected.

217
00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:00,520
Speaker 4: But it's it's.

218
00:13:00,160 --> 00:13:05,760
Speaker 8: Hard, and I know that she wants to reconcile with him.

219
00:13:05,800 --> 00:13:08,199
Speaker 3: There's absolutely no reason she's not going to try to

220
00:13:08,200 --> 00:13:09,880
Speaker 3: show up somewhere where he is, Like I don't, I

221
00:13:09,920 --> 00:13:11,000
Speaker 3: don't necessarily think she's going to.

222
00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:12,680
Speaker 4: Show up at my front door where she knows I

223
00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:13,400
Speaker 4: am or something.

224
00:13:14,320 --> 00:13:18,080
Speaker 3: But if she can figure out somewhere where she thinks

225
00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,080
Speaker 3: he might be, there's nothing to stop her from showing up.

226
00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:22,000
Speaker 4: I mean, what's gonna stop her? What? The police may

227
00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:25,559
Speaker 4: come and then what and say stop? Or we'll say

228
00:13:25,559 --> 00:13:26,160
Speaker 4: stop again.

229
00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:29,040
Speaker 6: So now you just have to deal with a huge

230
00:13:29,080 --> 00:13:31,520
Speaker 6: amount of fear that compounds the grief you've already been

231
00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:33,200
Speaker 6: living in for years.

232
00:13:34,120 --> 00:13:36,040
Speaker 2: Do you think you could get a protective order, a

233
00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:38,080
Speaker 2: kind of like a permanent order.

234
00:13:38,160 --> 00:13:40,800
Speaker 3: There's no there's no way to for I mean, think

235
00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:45,040
Speaker 3: about it, if I mean batter women who have been

236
00:13:45,120 --> 00:13:46,640
Speaker 3: beat up and put in the hospital can't get a

237
00:13:46,640 --> 00:13:50,080
Speaker 3: protective order until they're damn near killed. That's why you

238
00:13:50,120 --> 00:13:52,280
Speaker 3: have women who die in those situation, you know, because

239
00:13:52,320 --> 00:13:54,480
Speaker 3: nobody wants to do nothing until something already happens.

240
00:13:54,720 --> 00:13:55,600
Speaker 4: It's the same thing.

241
00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:03,160
Speaker 5: These feelings of powerlessness, of being forced to sit on

242
00:14:03,240 --> 00:14:06,240
Speaker 5: his hands to wait for another very bad thing to happen,

243
00:14:06,960 --> 00:14:10,200
Speaker 5: is part of a propelled Troy to pursue legislative change.

244
00:14:10,880 --> 00:14:13,280
Speaker 3: We try to change it going forward for other families

245
00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:16,040
Speaker 3: and other people, other victims. We try to change it

246
00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:19,640
Speaker 3: hopefully at some point going forward for us. So I mean,

247
00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:22,200
Speaker 3: where we're at is is we have to get this

248
00:14:22,320 --> 00:14:25,640
Speaker 3: changed and fix it so other people don't go through

249
00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:29,000
Speaker 3: it this way. I saw a reporter speaking about it,

250
00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:32,960
Speaker 3: and the anchor asked him what you know, So what

251
00:14:33,040 --> 00:14:35,320
Speaker 3: is the state going to make sure this doesn't happen again?

252
00:14:35,400 --> 00:14:37,200
Speaker 3: And he just kind of stopped. He said, well nothing.

253
00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:41,240
Speaker 3: He was like, in the current system, this could happen

254
00:14:41,280 --> 00:14:42,000
Speaker 3: over and over again.

255
00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:50,960
Speaker 4: My name's Troy Turner. I want to thank you guys

256
00:14:50,960 --> 00:14:52,000
Speaker 4: for hearing me out. First.

257
00:14:52,040 --> 00:14:56,640
Speaker 3: I'm the father of three children. Two of them were

258
00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:58,880
Speaker 3: murdered by their mother at ages two and three.

259
00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,200
Speaker 2: In April twenty twenty three, Troy was back at the

260
00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:07,280
Speaker 2: state House in Annapolis to push for reform. His bill

261
00:15:07,360 --> 00:15:09,880
Speaker 2: had been passed through a Senate committee and he was

262
00:15:09,960 --> 00:15:13,320
Speaker 2: now appearing before a House committee. He was given two

263
00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:14,760
Speaker 2: minutes to make his case.

264
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:16,200
Speaker 4: One by one.

265
00:15:16,280 --> 00:15:18,520
Speaker 3: She took my kids by age youngest to oldest at

266
00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:20,680
Speaker 3: age two, age three, and then my five year old.

267
00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:23,520
Speaker 3: Thank god, she was stopped before she got him. He's

268
00:15:23,560 --> 00:15:27,160
Speaker 3: still a miner, and I am terrified that she's going

269
00:15:27,200 --> 00:15:30,000
Speaker 3: to get out and come after him. Like I said,

270
00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:32,160
Speaker 3: she's under a civil commitment, so that could be at

271
00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,040
Speaker 3: any point in time. We just want to fix what

272
00:15:36,320 --> 00:15:38,000
Speaker 3: was broken by accident.

273
00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,880
Speaker 2: Troy wasn't the only person who spoke that day in

274
00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,520
Speaker 2: support of the bill.

275
00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:48,280
Speaker 9: Senate Bill five oh seven is necessary to protect public safety,

276
00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:51,119
Speaker 9: but it also continues to protect the rights of defendants

277
00:15:51,120 --> 00:15:51,960
Speaker 9: with disabilities.

278
00:15:52,960 --> 00:15:56,720
Speaker 2: That's Tracy Varda of the Baltimore City State's Attorney's Office.

279
00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,160
Speaker 2: She runs the mental health courts in Baltimore City on

280
00:16:00,280 --> 00:16:01,680
Speaker 2: behalf of her office.

281
00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:05,040
Speaker 9: So this tenuere provision needs to be reinstated for the

282
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:09,120
Speaker 9: following reasons. First of all, currently Criminal Procedure three one

283
00:16:09,160 --> 00:16:13,480
Speaker 9: oh seven's allows dangerous defendants to walk free. Second reason,

284
00:16:13,520 --> 00:16:16,440
Speaker 9: ten years will allow more time for dangerous defendants to

285
00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:19,920
Speaker 9: receive treatment and become confident. Thirdly, this bill protects the

286
00:16:19,960 --> 00:16:23,840
Speaker 9: defendants rights. Importantly, the judge still retains the right to

287
00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:27,880
Speaker 9: dismiss any charges at any time the court believes is unjust,

288
00:16:27,960 --> 00:16:30,760
Speaker 9: and this only applies to us defendants.

289
00:16:31,920 --> 00:16:34,920
Speaker 2: There was also opposition to changing the statute.

290
00:16:35,600 --> 00:16:39,160
Speaker 10: My name is Mary Piso. I'm the Supervising attorney for

291
00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:41,840
Speaker 10: the Forensic Mental Health Division of the Office of the

292
00:16:41,880 --> 00:16:45,960
Speaker 10: Public Defender, and I'm respectfully requesting that the committee issue

293
00:16:45,960 --> 00:16:50,000
Speaker 10: an unfavorable report on Senate Bill five h seven.

294
00:16:50,920 --> 00:16:54,520
Speaker 2: Mary Piso of the Public Defender's Office was calling in

295
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,360
Speaker 2: from her car. It's her job to provide legal counsel

296
00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:02,080
Speaker 2: and advocacy for people with mental health issues who are

297
00:17:02,120 --> 00:17:05,840
Speaker 2: involved in the criminal justice system, and she worried that

298
00:17:06,000 --> 00:17:09,280
Speaker 2: changes to this bill would lead to an erosion of

299
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,480
Speaker 2: rights for defendants, not an increase in rights for victims.

300
00:17:14,080 --> 00:17:17,840
Speaker 10: The amendments to Criminal Procedure three one oh seven are unnecessary,

301
00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:23,480
Speaker 10: clinically inappropriate, and inconsistent with constitutional principles regarding those deemed

302
00:17:23,520 --> 00:17:27,280
Speaker 10: and competent to stand trial, tying a further increase in

303
00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,439
Speaker 10: length of hospitalization into the severity of the crime is

304
00:17:30,480 --> 00:17:34,680
Speaker 10: based on a rationale punishment rather than treatment, even though

305
00:17:34,720 --> 00:17:38,080
Speaker 10: these individuals have not yet and in fact may never

306
00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,159
Speaker 10: be convicted of any crime.

307
00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,119
Speaker 2: But in the end, it was a father's grief that

308
00:17:45,280 --> 00:17:50,119
Speaker 2: echoed through the chamber. One man against a system determined

309
00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:54,879
Speaker 2: to create purpose from his personal tragedy, no matter how painful.

310
00:17:57,040 --> 00:17:58,720
Speaker 3: I'll be very honest with you. It's not easy for

311
00:17:58,760 --> 00:17:59,920
Speaker 3: me to come here and relive this.

312
00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:04,200
Speaker 2: Even if changing this statute could never turn back the clock.

313
00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:06,720
Speaker 3: I've been doing it over the past few years. I've

314
00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,120
Speaker 3: been here several times. Please do not make me come

315
00:18:09,160 --> 00:18:12,120
Speaker 3: back again and do this. Please fix this while you can.

316
00:18:12,640 --> 00:18:13,800
Speaker 3: It needs to be fixed now.

317
00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,600
Speaker 2: I heard later that when Troy spoke, some of the

318
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:24,320
Speaker 2: committee members had tears in their eyes, but in the

319
00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:29,080
Speaker 2: end it didn't matter. In late April, Matt emailed, he

320
00:18:29,160 --> 00:18:32,880
Speaker 2: said the bill didn't pass the House. Everyone's a little

321
00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:36,879
Speaker 2: worn down right now. He said, this was the last

322
00:18:36,880 --> 00:19:02,320
Speaker 2: major card Troy had to play. For now nothing would change.

323
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,600
Speaker 5: For the next few months. It was hard for Beth

324
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,200
Speaker 5: Andet to get Troy and Stephanie on the phone. Matt

325
00:19:07,240 --> 00:19:10,320
Speaker 5: told us they needed a break. They seemed more insular

326
00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:14,320
Speaker 5: in their grief, more exhausted by so many defeats, less

327
00:19:14,320 --> 00:19:18,560
Speaker 5: galvanized by the fight, and less convinced that putting everything

328
00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,960
Speaker 5: out there, sharing the intimate details of the horror they've

329
00:19:22,000 --> 00:19:24,920
Speaker 5: been living with for nine years, was going to help

330
00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,240
Speaker 5: them move forward in any way. How have you sort

331
00:19:29,280 --> 00:19:33,399
Speaker 5: of how are you channeling things right now, but eventually

332
00:19:33,520 --> 00:19:35,280
Speaker 5: in August we did connect.

333
00:19:36,240 --> 00:19:38,880
Speaker 3: So we keep in touch with our PI and see

334
00:19:38,880 --> 00:19:41,480
Speaker 3: if there's anything that we can run with him, if

335
00:19:41,520 --> 00:19:42,920
Speaker 3: we can come up with searches.

336
00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,159
Speaker 5: For years, Troy had been working with a private investigator

337
00:19:46,160 --> 00:19:48,879
Speaker 5: who ran his own searches for the kids, followed up leads,

338
00:19:49,119 --> 00:19:51,880
Speaker 5: all pro bono. He wasn't able to turn up much

339
00:19:51,920 --> 00:19:55,240
Speaker 5: that the police didn't already know in this case, it's

340
00:19:55,240 --> 00:19:56,560
Speaker 5: been all dead ends.

341
00:19:57,800 --> 00:20:00,000
Speaker 4: Stephanie god bless.

342
00:20:00,240 --> 00:20:02,280
Speaker 3: Now she does it, but she mans the page, you know,

343
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:05,520
Speaker 3: and she talks to people and puts stuff out there,

344
00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:11,040
Speaker 3: just stuff like that. We're going to be fighting obviously,

345
00:20:11,080 --> 00:20:15,600
Speaker 3: you know, to get law changes done, and as new

346
00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:19,439
Speaker 3: information comes up, then whenever appropriate, we'll run searches. We're

347
00:20:19,520 --> 00:20:22,720
Speaker 3: looking for new ways to search. We're looking at I

348
00:20:22,720 --> 00:20:25,040
Speaker 3: don't even remember what the initials are, but we're trying

349
00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 3: to look into some kind of.

350
00:20:28,400 --> 00:20:28,600
Speaker 7: Heat.

351
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,920
Speaker 8: Yeah, it's like you know what, you know what I'm

352
00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:34,879
Speaker 8: talking about. I just can't think of it off the

353
00:20:34,880 --> 00:20:35,159
Speaker 8: top of.

354
00:20:36,880 --> 00:20:40,120
Speaker 4: Initials, that thing. So, I mean, we're looking at new ways.

355
00:20:40,240 --> 00:20:43,119
Speaker 3: But and I think that's just it, like none of

356
00:20:43,160 --> 00:20:46,240
Speaker 3: it has to do with just you know, throwing pictures

357
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:48,680
Speaker 3: out there and hoping someone saw something. At this point,

358
00:20:49,440 --> 00:20:54,000
Speaker 3: because it's that's for lack of bedroom. That's pretty useless

359
00:20:54,000 --> 00:20:56,960
Speaker 3: to us at this point, because it's just it's that's

360
00:20:57,040 --> 00:21:00,680
Speaker 3: been done, you know, for nine years now. It's we've

361
00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:04,240
Speaker 3: talked to people who have viable stories. We've talked to

362
00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:07,640
Speaker 3: people who are just crazy. We've talked to people who

363
00:21:08,280 --> 00:21:10,760
Speaker 3: quite frankly, don't mean any malice or trying to get

364
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 3: false leaves, but they just really want to help so bad.

365
00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:17,360
Speaker 3: When they see something that maybe possibly could have been

366
00:21:17,960 --> 00:21:21,359
Speaker 3: halfway coincidental, then they make it something that it wasn't

367
00:21:21,359 --> 00:21:23,320
Speaker 3: because they want to help so bad.

368
00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:30,040
Speaker 5: It's counterintuitive, but the overwhelming public involvement in this case,

369
00:21:30,320 --> 00:21:34,000
Speaker 5: the generation of thousands of leads, many from people who

370
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:38,359
Speaker 5: believe they're helping, actually complicates things for the family and

371
00:21:38,440 --> 00:21:40,919
Speaker 5: maybe for any future prosecution of Catherine.

372
00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:43,399
Speaker 3: Well, now that's all stuff that either we have to

373
00:21:43,480 --> 00:21:45,920
Speaker 3: run out or let's say they do rearrest Catherine. Let's

374
00:21:45,920 --> 00:21:48,360
Speaker 3: say they actually get to a point where they're pressing charges.

375
00:21:49,160 --> 00:21:52,119
Speaker 4: Well, we just gave her her case for a reasonable doubt.

376
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,800
Speaker 3: Because there's a thousand leads that were never run. There's

377
00:21:55,920 --> 00:21:57,520
Speaker 3: ten thousand leads that were never run.

378
00:21:58,000 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 5: That's Troy and Stephanie's friend and lawyer, Matt Right.

379
00:22:01,520 --> 00:22:03,680
Speaker 4: But I'm saying there's a thousand newer ones even.

380
00:22:03,760 --> 00:22:06,520
Speaker 3: You know, every time there's a news story, they get

381
00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:08,240
Speaker 3: a call from Australia and the same time they get

382
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:09,120
Speaker 3: a call from Scotland.

383
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:09,880
Speaker 4: I see the kids.

384
00:22:09,920 --> 00:22:12,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, we've had several leads in Scotland.

385
00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:20,720
Speaker 5: Do you think that Catherine will ever tell you what

386
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 5: happened to the kids that night?

387
00:22:22,400 --> 00:22:26,639
Speaker 3: No? I don't think she will. There's no there's nothing

388
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:27,359
Speaker 3: in it for her.

389
00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:27,639
Speaker 4: To do it.

390
00:22:30,000 --> 00:22:33,520
Speaker 5: For years, as Troy has advocated for Catherine to be prosecuted,

391
00:22:33,840 --> 00:22:36,880
Speaker 5: he's made clear that he's not simply seeking to punish her,

392
00:22:37,320 --> 00:22:40,160
Speaker 5: that his desire for a trial isn't just about vengeance.

393
00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 5: Troy believes that the threat of prison, real prison, not

394
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:48,880
Speaker 5: being confined in a high security psychiatric facility, is the

395
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,679
Speaker 5: only thing that might finally push Catherine to reveal what

396
00:22:51,720 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 5: happened the night of September seventh, twenty fourteen.

397
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 4: She says she's not safe in jail.

398
00:22:57,560 --> 00:23:00,680
Speaker 5: And now that crucial piece of leverage is all but God.

399
00:23:01,160 --> 00:23:04,880
Speaker 3: There's really no one pressing her in order for it

400
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,480
Speaker 3: to even happen the institution itself. Of the course, you know,

401
00:23:09,560 --> 00:23:13,560
Speaker 3: the justice system isn't pressing her. In fact, they're protecting her.

402
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:15,280
Speaker 3: Perkins isn't pressing her.

403
00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 5: Troy will never stop looking for Sarah and Jacob, and

404
00:23:19,720 --> 00:23:22,399
Speaker 5: with Stephanie's help, he'll do everything he can to protect

405
00:23:22,440 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 5: his oldest son.

406
00:23:24,280 --> 00:23:26,639
Speaker 3: There's no end of the road there, so we keep fighting,

407
00:23:26,680 --> 00:23:28,880
Speaker 3: We keep looking if we never find him, all by looking.

408
00:23:29,720 --> 00:23:33,160
Speaker 5: But the path ahead is murky. There's no real recovery

409
00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:36,560
Speaker 5: for this family, just the day to day of putting

410
00:23:36,560 --> 00:23:39,440
Speaker 5: one foot in front of the other under the watch

411
00:23:39,480 --> 00:23:42,239
Speaker 5: of two children now present only in the pictures that

412
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:59,199
Speaker 5: line their walls. Often, when you lose someone, you have

413
00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 5: a place where you can memorialize them. You go to

414
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:04,760
Speaker 5: a gravesite and spend time with them you haven't earned,

415
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,000
Speaker 5: that reminds you they were once here. Do you have

416
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 5: some version of that where you can kind of spend

417
00:24:10,800 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 5: time with them or is that just a key thing

418
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:14,760
Speaker 5: that you've been lacking that you need.

419
00:24:16,320 --> 00:24:16,919
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know.

420
00:24:16,960 --> 00:24:18,919
Speaker 3: People, It's like I don't even like when people use

421
00:24:18,960 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 3: words like closure. There's no closure to this. I mean,

422
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:24,119
Speaker 3: if we found their bodies to it's not closure. My

423
00:24:24,160 --> 00:24:26,920
Speaker 3: kids are going so like for me, I don't know.

424
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:30,000
Speaker 3: I think Stephanie may have a different opinion, like on

425
00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,880
Speaker 3: probably what I think I need or whatever, because sometimes,

426
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:35,280
Speaker 3: you know, I just, you know whatever, I don't know

427
00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:38,280
Speaker 3: even if their bodies are there, you know, they're not there.

428
00:24:39,200 --> 00:24:40,560
Speaker 3: My kids aren't in my life anymore.

429
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:41,440
Speaker 4: They're not here.

430
00:24:43,040 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 7: To you.

431
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,240
Speaker 6: Is the accountability part almost sort of the bigger part,

432
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:47,440
Speaker 6: because you know.

433
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:50,720
Speaker 3: I think that's I think that would be something that

434
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:54,000
Speaker 3: would be helpful. I mean, there's like no cure for it,

435
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 3: you know, but it would be helpful if I didn't

436
00:24:57,320 --> 00:25:02,199
Speaker 3: feel like someone just took them and it's fine, you know,

437
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 3: like that's cool. They took your kids, okay, whatever, they

438
00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:06,960
Speaker 3: killed your kids, cool, Okay, It's like, what the hell

439
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:07,119
Speaker 3: is that?

440
00:25:07,359 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 4: You know?

441
00:25:08,960 --> 00:25:11,880
Speaker 3: I mean, I don't even think I really like care

442
00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:16,240
Speaker 3: how the accountability came about. Like if it's if she's

443
00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,639
Speaker 3: in jail, if it's that they find her in the

444
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 3: NCR and then she's at least locked away from society

445
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:26,520
Speaker 3: for thirty five years, or if you know, she jumped

446
00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:27,080
Speaker 3: out a window.

447
00:25:27,080 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 4: I don't care.

448
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,560
Speaker 3: As long as there's some form of accountability there that

449
00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:31,400
Speaker 3: would be helpful.

450
00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 6: Stephanie, do you have a different or take on this

451
00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 6: or do you Troy?

452
00:25:38,560 --> 00:25:41,120
Speaker 8: I mean, I think the accountability is a huge part

453
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,760
Speaker 8: of it, because you know, to a lot of people,

454
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,920
Speaker 8: this is just a story and these are real kids.

455
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:49,720
Speaker 8: And you know, my son is really missing his brother

456
00:25:49,800 --> 00:25:54,320
Speaker 8: and sister. I know that he he wants them here. However,

457
00:25:54,720 --> 00:26:00,639
Speaker 8: he needs that like memorial piece. He needs that and

458
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 8: I can't That's one thing I can't give to him.

459
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 8: And she was just able to take them and all

460
00:26:09,560 --> 00:26:12,440
Speaker 8: this suffering, all the trauma that my son has endured,

461
00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:17,280
Speaker 8: like all the I mean it, this is so layered.

462
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 8: People will never you know, it touches and or interferes

463
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:26,280
Speaker 8: with or hurts every part of everything and makes things,

464
00:26:26,640 --> 00:26:28,480
Speaker 8: You'll create, things that you would have never had to

465
00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:35,520
Speaker 8: deal with on every level, you know, every level in life.

466
00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 6: And when you say that your son needs a memorial piece,

467
00:26:38,840 --> 00:26:41,080
Speaker 6: do you mean like an end to the not knowing?

468
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:42,320
Speaker 4: Yeah?

469
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:48,320
Speaker 8: Yeah, and I mean probably in something physical, yeah, absolutely, Like.

470
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,480
Speaker 3: He needs a place to say I can talk to

471
00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 3: my brothers and sister. This is where they are.

472
00:26:56,600 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 5: That's really devastating.

473
00:26:59,000 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 11: Yeah, unrestorable is executive produced and hosted by Me, Sarah Trelevin,

474
00:27:40,880 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 11: and Beth Carris.

475
00:27:42,240 --> 00:27:45,879
Speaker 5: Our story editor is Kathleen Goldheart. Mixing and sound designed

476
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 5: by Mitchell Stewart for anonymous content. Jessica Grimshaw is our

477
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,240
Speaker 5: executive producer, Jennifer Sears is our executive in charge of production,

478
00:27:53,720 --> 00:27:57,720
Speaker 5: and nick Yannas is our legal counsel for iHeart executive

479
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,280
Speaker 5: producer Christina Everett and supervising producer Abu Zafar