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Speaker 1: The Volume Jenkins and Jones is brought to you by

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Speaker 1: Fan Duel. It's never been easier to play fantasy on

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Speaker 1: Fan Duel. Whether you love basketball, golf, soccer, or any

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Speaker 1: other fantasy sport. There's a contest for every fan Fan

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Speaker 1: Duel more ways to win. Welcome to Jenkins and Jones

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Speaker 1: on the Volume podcast Network. It is Thursday, September ninth,

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Speaker 1: and we have an episode that all three of us

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Speaker 1: were very very excited for. We're going to be joined

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Speaker 1: by Hanif Abdura Kiev, the author of They Can't Kill

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Speaker 1: Us Until They Kill Us, which was our first book

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Speaker 1: club selection. Really long in depth interview. Great talking to Hanife,

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Speaker 1: but as always Jenkinson Jones hosted by my good buddies,

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Speaker 1: Dragonfly Jones aka Tyler.

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Speaker 2: Ever Buddy of the Gun, the.

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Speaker 1: Jethro Jenkins aka John was that Bubbas and I'm Might

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Speaker 1: And before we get to the interview with Hanif, I

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Speaker 1: wanted to apologize. We've talked about the Drake album. Our

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Speaker 1: last episode was a music album. We talked about the

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Speaker 1: Drake album for like a half hour forty minutes. I'm

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Speaker 1: the person who is usually on Twitter while I'm working

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Speaker 1: and I kind of jot down topics for us to

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Speaker 1: talk about. I was enjoying the holiday weekend. I was

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Speaker 1: not on Twitter, and so I was not even aware

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Speaker 1: that R Kelly appeared or was credited in any way

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Speaker 1: on this album. But we did get a couple of

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Speaker 1: messages from people saying, hey, you guys talked about this

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Speaker 1: album for a long time without saying fuck R Kelly.

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Speaker 1: So I wanted to personally apologize for that because I

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Speaker 1: had like eight things to talk about on the album

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Speaker 1: and that literally was not on there. And I know

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Speaker 1: that none of the three of us ever want to

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Speaker 1: miss an opportunity to say fuck R Kelly. So I'll

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Speaker 1: go first, fuck R Kelly, and then yeah, y'all got

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Speaker 1: I mean, people.

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Speaker 3: Would hit me. I'm saying that we didn't get it.

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Speaker 4: We didn't talk about that, and you know we we

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Speaker 4: never you know, sway from saying like you said, fuck

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Speaker 4: R Kelly, you know what I mean? But and we

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Speaker 4: you know, they were saying that, you know, him deciding

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Speaker 4: which was a decision. You had a decision to keep that,

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Speaker 4: you know what I'm saying, O g ron C tidbit

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Speaker 4: or get him to you know, do another one. You

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Speaker 4: know what I'm saying, or edit it out, whatever. You

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Speaker 4: had a decision to do that or not, and you

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Speaker 4: decided to keep it. You know what I'm saying, understanding

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Speaker 4: that you'd have to put you know, R Kelly is

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Speaker 4: a co lyricist.

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Speaker 3: That's a political decision.

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Speaker 4: That is not a political You made a decision, you

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Speaker 4: know what I'm saying, and to me, it's the wrong decision.

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Speaker 3: Fuck that, nigga.

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Speaker 4: You have the most streamed fucking album in Spotify history

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Speaker 4: and you choose to put money in R Kelly's pockets.

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Speaker 3: Fuck that shit. You know what I'm saying.

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Speaker 4: What Noah said was some fucking bullshit, especially being that

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Speaker 4: it you know it was. It was such a minor thing.

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Speaker 4: It was such a minor piece of the song and

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Speaker 4: the album, and it was worth triggering those who have

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Speaker 4: been hurt or affected. You know what I'm saying, bisexual assault, violence, whatever.

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Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying. It just the fuck that excuse.

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Speaker 3: There's no excuse for that.

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Speaker 4: So you know what I'm saying, flat out, fuck R

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Speaker 4: Kelly and fuck them for doing that shit, bro, Like

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Speaker 4: that's disgusting.

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Speaker 3: You know what I mean.

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Speaker 4: You teamed up with that man, no matter how much

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Speaker 4: you decide or are you how you feel about it?

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Speaker 4: You know what I'm saying you you teamed up with

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Speaker 4: that man on that project, and that man is his

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Speaker 4: pocket is getting lined due to your actions, your decision,

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Speaker 4: which is flat out fucked up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. The shit that that threw me, that blew me

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Speaker 2: was was the no apology where he was like, you know,

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Speaker 2: basically he said, make no mistake, we didn't want to

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Speaker 2: do this, but we all agree to it. So, I mean,

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Speaker 2: how what the fuck was was that even about? You

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Speaker 2: know what I mean? And ron C is on Ovo,

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Speaker 2: like his fucking ig name is Ovo Rod. See, this

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Speaker 2: is some shit y'all could have easily fixed, but y'all

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Speaker 2: made a decision stand by it. So you know, fuck

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Speaker 2: r Kelly. I just want to get that in one

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Speaker 2: last time too.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so we apologize. We're not talking about that ship.

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Speaker 4: I did ask mister shit I was on planes and

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Speaker 4: driving and ship. But yo, we wanted to make sure

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Speaker 4: to add their dendum.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we were both were we were tapped out. And

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Speaker 1: I do I do apologize because I had not appropriately,

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Speaker 1: you know, kind of checked up on the that topic

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Speaker 1: before we got into it. All Right, stick around, We're

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Speaker 1: going to have our interview with with Hanif, and then

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Speaker 1: I think we're going to talk for a minute afterwards,

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Speaker 1: but I do want to just stay up top. Next week,

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Speaker 1: we're starting book two for the book Club on the

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Speaker 1: Thursday episode, so make sure you have How the Word

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Speaker 1: Is Passed by Clint Smith, who is also a poet

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Speaker 1: slash prose writer just like Hanif. I think we've accidentally

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Speaker 1: discovered that that's our aesthetic on the Jackins the Joke show.

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Speaker 1: But get that book and then read through the end

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Speaker 1: of the Angola Prison chapter. That's about the first third

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Speaker 1: and I'll kind of intro of the book. We'll talk

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Speaker 1: about those first chapters on next week's show. So How

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Speaker 1: the Word Has Passed, read through the end of the

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Speaker 1: one eight hundred gambler. We're excited to bring on.

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Speaker 3: We're more than excited.

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Speaker 1: We're like nervously geekishly nerdily excited to bring on our

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Speaker 1: special game. We've been reading his book They Can't Kill

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Speaker 1: Us Until they kill Us as our first Book Club

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Speaker 1: two point zero book. Hanif Abdurah Kiev, thank you so

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Speaker 1: much for coming on the show man. We really appreciate it.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, thanks for having me. It's a real pleasure. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So we've got we've got some questions and then we've

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Speaker 1: got a couple of reader questions as well, including and

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Speaker 1: from what I've learned from you reading this book, I

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Speaker 1: think you'll be happy about this. We got we have

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Speaker 1: some questions from some high school teachers, actually, some high

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Speaker 1: school English teachers, who.

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Speaker 5: I think, yeah, soon someone told me I saw I

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Speaker 5: saw through some sweets or maybe something. Did anyone ask

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Speaker 5: a sneaker question? Someone's like, I'm gonna ask a question

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Speaker 5: about sneaker. I'm a big sneaker collector, and I never

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Speaker 5: get to answer sneaker questions. And so I was like, finally,

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Speaker 5: but maybe no one asked one.

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Speaker 3: They didn't send the email in, But Tyler, please make

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Speaker 3: a note to ask a.

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Speaker 5: Good sneaker question.

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Speaker 1: My first question right off the top. And I have

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Speaker 1: to say, as a writer, I your book was so good.

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Speaker 1: It made me like furious set points, bro like it's.

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Speaker 3: So it's so insightful.

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Speaker 1: And John and Tyler and I talked on the last

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Speaker 1: two episodes as we're reading it about it feels like

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Speaker 1: a lot of conversations you have with your friends late

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Speaker 1: at night where you feel like you're getting to some

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Speaker 1: larger point about the world, but you actually put it

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Speaker 1: down in an insightful, clearly articulated way. So thank you

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Speaker 1: for writing it. We really enjoyed, We really enjoyed going

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Speaker 1: through it. My first question for you, just from seeing

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Speaker 1: the way that you see the world throughout the book,

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Speaker 1: is do you consider yourself an optimist or a cynic

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Speaker 1: in terms of the way you see the world and

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Speaker 1: you know yourself and your life and your place in

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Speaker 1: the world.

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Speaker 5: Well, that's a great question, because I think critically the

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Speaker 5: it's not even a knock. I think the critical response

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Speaker 5: is that I'm too cynical in America at least, right

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Speaker 5: it's so funny, so they can't kill so they kill us.

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Speaker 5: Right now is having like a weird revival in Italy,

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Speaker 5: Like it was published in Italy and maybe July and

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Speaker 5: it's for some reason, it's like huge in Italy and

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Speaker 5: the Italian GQ reviewed it and wrote this thing. I

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Speaker 5: was like, what I absolutely love about this book is

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Speaker 5: that it has no cynicism at all. But in America,

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Speaker 5: you know what I mean, in America are like, this

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Speaker 5: motherfucker is cynical, don't. I don't consider myself an optimist.

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Speaker 5: I don't think that optimism for me has much utility,

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Speaker 5: And oftentimes I think I'm just not propelled by optimism,

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Speaker 5: you know, like I have. I'm not saying it's not useful,

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Speaker 5: but I think that coming out of the Obama like

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Speaker 5: Capital h Hope era, people began to think that hope

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Speaker 5: itself could propel us towards something useful because it's attractive

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Speaker 5: or comfortable. And I just am not very propelled by hope.

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Speaker 5: And I don't just mean politically. I mean I'm so

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Speaker 5: you know, most of the sports teams are rooted for

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Speaker 5: are terrible. You know, I'm a Timberwolves fan, right like

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Speaker 5: lifelong Timberls fan and so and right now, you know,

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Speaker 5: like right now everyone is like, oh, you know, I

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Speaker 5: see this, I see this ship. I don't know if

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Speaker 5: I can curse curs.

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Speaker 3: As you want.

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Speaker 5: On this show, yes, because I'm seeing that ship. That's like,

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Speaker 5: you know, I see Timberrels fans like, man, we're gonna

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Speaker 5: get We're gonna get Ben Simmons, and our core is

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Speaker 5: gonna be DiAngelo, Russell Kat and Ben Simmons. It's like,

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Speaker 5: you know, if you get if you get Ben Simmons,

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Speaker 5: you're gonna have all four of those guys, you know

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Speaker 5: what I mean? Like, I just don't I allow myself

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Speaker 5: to believe first in the potential for a men's disappointment. Therefore,

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Speaker 5: in the moments where that is less likely or the

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Speaker 5: moments where that like doesn't come to fruition, I get

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Speaker 5: to revel in that like comfortably, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 5: I'm not saying I'm without joy. You know, I went

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Speaker 5: to a sunflower farm this weekend and it was great.

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Speaker 5: It was a lot of fun, you know what I'm saying,

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Speaker 5: Like I seek out pleasure, but in the larger scope

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Speaker 5: of political, social, sports, fandom, all of that, I think

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Speaker 5: that I first opened myself up to the potential for disappointment,

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Speaker 5: and that propels me to the work organizing work, or

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Speaker 5: community work, or the work of not paying attention to

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Speaker 5: the basketball season when it comes to overwhelm this.

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Speaker 4: This book was so good that at moments I would like,

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Speaker 4: I remember like reading the Prince's Essay and like giving

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Speaker 4: it to my lady, like you have to fucking read

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Speaker 4: this right now, you know what I mean. And as

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Speaker 4: soon as I've finished reading it, she started reading the

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Speaker 4: book herself, and yes, said, she asked me a question.

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Speaker 3: She says, what lens does he come from?

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Speaker 4: And I thought, in my first I just I don't

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Speaker 4: fucking know, you know what I mean, Like you write

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Speaker 4: cliche free and I'm wondering, like, you know, where does

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Speaker 4: your lens come from? Like what inspires you to come

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Speaker 4: up with these thoughts.

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Speaker 3: Where do you know? What do you think about that?

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Speaker 5: That's such a good question, and I appreciate you passing that.

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Speaker 5: You know, well, I thinking about that essay is that

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Speaker 5: it was written so hastily. A few of the things

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Speaker 5: in the book I think maybe like seven to ten

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Speaker 5: essays were from my era writing at MTV News with

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Speaker 5: that great cast of writers that were cast off by

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Speaker 5: MTV News, like during st Felix, Aram, Madison, Holly, you know,

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Speaker 5: like Holly Anderson, Morley Lambert, So and So, Carvell Wallace,

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Speaker 5: great Carvell Wallace. And that Prince essay was written so hastily,

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Speaker 5: you know, it was like, Prince is dead, we need something.

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Speaker 5: I wrote that in maybe like a forty five minute

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Speaker 5: stretch because I was I knew at the time. I

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Speaker 5: was like, I can't. It's impossible to write about Prince's

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Speaker 5: whole career, you know what I mean. And it's impossible

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Speaker 5: to do an obituary that summons like the fullness of

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Speaker 5: Prince's whole life.

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Speaker 1: John is furious that you write. He's trying to hold back.

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Speaker 1: He wants to cuss you out so loud. I'm saying

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Speaker 1: you wrote that in forty five.

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Speaker 4: I texted Tyler and Mike and was like he wrote

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Speaker 4: about Prince and four pages where people could not do

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Speaker 4: in a full book, you know, I mean, you gave

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Speaker 4: Prince justice in four pages and that blew my shit.

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Speaker 4: And you did it in forty five minutes, and I

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Speaker 4: feel like you just shitted on me.

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Speaker 3: But that's all good. Contigure what you were saying.

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Speaker 5: But the thing is, in some ways though, So I

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Speaker 5: wrote it. I put the words on the page in

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Speaker 5: forty five minutes, but I've been writing that since I

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Speaker 5: saw that performance. Right, Like, if you love an artist

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Speaker 5: and you have a life that is tied to an

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Speaker 5: artist in any way, you maybe live that you live

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Speaker 5: your life mourning a world where that artist no longer exists.

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Speaker 5: So yeah, like I put the words on that page,

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Speaker 5: on the page of forty five minutes. But from the

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Speaker 5: moment I saw that Super Bowl performance, I was imagining

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Speaker 5: a world where we wouldn't have prints and all we

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Speaker 5: would have was that performance kind of bronze and amber.

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Speaker 5: So I was writing that piece from the point that

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Speaker 5: I saw that performance on But to answer the other question,

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Speaker 5: I mean, I think, you know, like the lens that

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Speaker 5: I most commonly relate to is the lens that no

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Speaker 5: curiosity I hold is unworthy of exploration. Now that doesn't

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Speaker 5: mean that everything I think is worth writing and giving

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Speaker 5: to the public, but it means that in the journey

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Speaker 5: of trying to figure out some shit that I can't

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Speaker 5: get off my mind, I might stumble on something, you know,

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Speaker 5: like so much of my brain is occupied by these weird,

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Speaker 5: somewhat ridiculous rabbit holes, musical rabbit holes that I can't shake. Recently,

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Speaker 5: I was just really immersed in this idea of the

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Speaker 5: Virginia sound. I think I was sent down it. It

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Speaker 5: was whenever a Leah's albums came out on Spotify, or

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Speaker 5: at least whenever One in a Million came out of Spotify,

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Speaker 5: and I found myself once again thinking about Timbaland's production

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Speaker 5: techniques and how that intersected with the Neptunes. And then

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Speaker 5: I spent so much time thinking about the Virginia sound

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Speaker 5: and what's defined particularly that Virginia Beach area, you know,

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Speaker 5: and that I could write something about that that's not

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Speaker 5: useful for the public to see. But through the research

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Speaker 5: or through the excitements that sent me back to these

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Speaker 5: musical archives or these historical archives, I might find something

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Speaker 5: else that's worthwhile. And so my lens is generally I'm

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Speaker 5: not a very confident person generally, right, but my lens

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Speaker 5: is confident because I'm pretty confident that if I'm spending

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Speaker 5: more than a day thinking about something, then it is

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Speaker 5: knocking on the door of something else, which is knocking

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Speaker 5: on the door of something else that is maybe worthwhile.

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Speaker 5: And I can probably tie all those things together if

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Speaker 5: I try hard enough.

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Speaker 4: You can tell about how you write your curiosity too,

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Speaker 4: Like I think like that defines like nobody that I

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Speaker 4: know as brilliant as lacks curiosity, and your love of

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Speaker 4: curiosity seems crazy. Like how did you find yourself, you know,

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Speaker 4: being like you said, growing up poor predominantly black neighborhood

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Speaker 4: in the grun scene.

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Speaker 3: Like that was interesting to me?

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Speaker 5: Oh yeah, I mean, and I talk about this a

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Speaker 5: bit of my new book. I'm always surprised, and I'm

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Speaker 5: not trying to like shit on anybody else, but I'm

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Speaker 5: only surprised black folks are like, you know, you get

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Speaker 5: black folks who are like, well, I was listening to

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Speaker 5: Nirvana and black people made fun of me for it

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Speaker 5: or whatever the fuck? You know, Yeah, that just wasn't

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Speaker 5: I mean, I grew up. Yes, I grew up in

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Speaker 5: a primarily black neighborhood and all this, but I also

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Speaker 5: grew up in like the golden era of college radio,

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Speaker 5: and I grew up in a college town, and I

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Speaker 5: grew up with older siblings who were in college, and

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Speaker 5: so that meant, you know, like I don't know if

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Speaker 5: y'all grew up in college towns when college radio was big,

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Speaker 5: but that meant that, like you would get a Fuji

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Speaker 5: song next to a Sound Garden song, next to a

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Speaker 5: blind Melon song next to a Helter Skelter song, because

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Speaker 5: it was all college radio was great. It was all

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Speaker 5: about the taste of whoever was in the chair, you

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Speaker 5: know what I mean. And you know, I find out.

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Speaker 5: I found out about like suicidal tendencies and punkin hardcore

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Speaker 5: through not only college radio, but the stuff my siblings

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Speaker 5: were bringing back into the house. And this was in

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Speaker 5: an era too, where like UMTV raps would come on

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Speaker 5: right before Headbanger's Ball and you could just if you

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Speaker 5: were uplaid enough and had cable, which my family did,

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Speaker 5: sometimes you could just watch all the way through, you know,

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Speaker 5: and there was no real delineation in that stuff. For me,

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Speaker 5: it was all like musical exploration, and all the punks

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Speaker 5: that I knew coming up who like hip me to

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Speaker 5: stuff were black kids mostly, and it also helped that

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Speaker 5: I grew up around curious music listeners. Now, yeah, they

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Speaker 5: were like the strict hardcore kids or the strict hip

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Speaker 5: hop heads who didn't want to hear that other shit,

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Speaker 5: But there were a lot of folks who were like

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Speaker 5: listening to Lost Boys but also listening to minor Threat,

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Speaker 5: you know, and would put that stuff on like Saday.

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Speaker 5: It was a big like tape dubin era, so you

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Speaker 5: like Saday would be like Atlien's and Side B would

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Speaker 5: be the new Weezer record, you know, that kind of stuff.

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Speaker 5: And so so when I came up, Bear's mentioning too

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Speaker 5: that the easiest shows for me to access when I

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Speaker 5: was like in my late teens were punk shows because

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Speaker 5: a lot of rap shows. There were hip hop shows

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Speaker 5: coming to the Midwest, particularly Cincinnati. I mean Cincinnati is

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Speaker 5: a very underrated as a really underrated rap history. You know,

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Speaker 5: high Tech was there, Jay Rawls was there, just a

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Speaker 5: real underrated rap I mean, Reflection Eternal recorded there. But

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Speaker 5: there weren't a lot of rap shows in the Midwest.

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Speaker 5: Or there were not nearly as many rap shows as

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Speaker 5: punk shows. In punk shows, you know, you hit Detroit, Pittsburgh, Columbus, Dayton, Chicago,

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Speaker 5: and if you had like three dollars in like a

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Speaker 5: can good, you could see ten bands. And there was

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Speaker 5: a point in my life where it was very much like, well,

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Speaker 5: I just want to see as much music as possible,

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Speaker 5: and so yeah, I went to hip hop shows too,

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Speaker 5: but they were a little bit pricier to get into,

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Speaker 5: and I was like, you know, in my early teens,

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Speaker 5: I was like poor, poor, like for real poor, and

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Speaker 5: they were harder for me to get into. Some of

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Speaker 5: them were like, you know, eighteen up, twenty one up.

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Speaker 5: In punk shows, they hit a point where they just

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Speaker 5: didn't care. It was like they would know your idea

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Speaker 5: was fake and be like, you know, we don't even

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Speaker 5: care anymore, you know. But hip hop shows you had

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Speaker 5: to do with the flashlight looking at the id type shit.

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Speaker 5: And so it was at some point it was easier

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Speaker 5: for me to get into more punk shows more often,

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Speaker 5: and that was the scene I was on, you know.

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Speaker 1: And and.

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Speaker 5: I think punk and hardcore shows made me feel a

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Speaker 5: wider or not a wider. I want to be clear

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Speaker 5: a different range of emotions than hip hop shows made

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Speaker 5: me feel because at that point, like the hip hop

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Speaker 5: shows I was going to that I was like putting

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Speaker 5: down money on were like dream shows. Like I remember

388
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Speaker 5: seeing Wu Tang Clan playing Columbus in like a small

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Speaker 5: packed room. You know, we're talking like you know, post

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Speaker 5: Wu Tang forever, but when the group was still together

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Speaker 5: together you know that type shit where you know, and

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Speaker 5: seeing that was like life changing. And so the hip

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Speaker 5: hop shows I was going to were these big, massive

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Speaker 5: life changing ones, and the punk shows were like, well

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Speaker 5: I'll see any band on any bill anywhere, like that

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Speaker 5: kind of thing.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I think we were about like the same age.

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Speaker 2: It was there like a particular song that that was

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Speaker 2: kind of your your gateway into like the rock scene,

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Speaker 2: because like if you're like our age, it was fucking

401
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Speaker 2: teen Spirit, you know what I mean, Like like like

402
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Speaker 2: that was every that was like every black kid's gateway

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Speaker 2: into rock, you know what I'm saying. So, is there

404
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Speaker 2: a particular song that sticks out to you that kind

405
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Speaker 2: of open yays like yo.

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Speaker 5: Teen Spirit?

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Speaker 1: Sure?

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Speaker 5: But I think actually if I were to picking an

409
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Speaker 5: RHNA song would be in Bloom, Like I remember in

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Speaker 5: Bloom I heard teen Spirit first, undoubtedly because the video

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Speaker 5: was everywhere. And for a long time, I feel like

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Speaker 5: I consume music largely through music videos, and they were

413
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Speaker 5: the music. I remember. The music vide over Teen Spirit

414
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Speaker 5: was everywhere, to the point where it was like, I'm

415
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Speaker 5: not I feel like. I talked to a homie about

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Speaker 5: this recently and she remembered it too. I was like, yo,

417
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Speaker 5: was did the play that ship?

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Speaker 3: Like TV raps one?

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Speaker 5: It was everywhere everywhere, But in Bloom was a song

420
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Speaker 5: I remember the most. I was always a big chorus kid,

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Speaker 5: you know, and I love melody. From an early age.

422
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Speaker 5: I love melody, and there was something about in Bloom

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Speaker 5: that was so melodic and infectious that even as like

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Speaker 5: a seven eight year old or whatever, I really latched

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Speaker 5: onto that. And then I realized that was happening in

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Speaker 5: other bands like mud Honey and Soundgarden, and that unlocks

427
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Speaker 5: some stuff for me, really, And and like my older

428
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Speaker 5: brother would listen to Metallica, my brother would listen to

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Speaker 5: the metal, you know, and like that would unlock some

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Speaker 5: stuff for me. My sister was very into women's singer

431
00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:49,040
Speaker 5: songwriters like this fair Lands Moore set that type of stuff. Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 5: and so that I mean, all that stuff was happening concurrently,

433
00:21:54,840 --> 00:21:57,320
Speaker 5: and I was like, Yo, this is like and this

434
00:21:57,480 --> 00:21:59,680
Speaker 5: was while hip hop was always kind of permit, like

435
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:02,280
Speaker 5: hip was the given in my household, right and in

436
00:22:02,359 --> 00:22:06,280
Speaker 5: my neighborhood. You know, that was what was coming out

437
00:22:06,280 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 5: of the cars. I always used to joke about, you know,

438
00:22:08,960 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 5: the stuff that the people I knew listened to riding

439
00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:12,840
Speaker 5: down the block. The stuff they would turn up when

440
00:22:12,840 --> 00:22:15,320
Speaker 5: they hit the neighborhood was maybe a little different than

441
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:17,960
Speaker 5: the stuff they'd listen to on the highway or the

442
00:22:18,000 --> 00:22:20,359
Speaker 5: stuff they would listen to, you know, I mean like

443
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:22,879
Speaker 5: with the windows up elsewhere. You know, people listening to

444
00:22:23,040 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 5: like a lance More sets you ought to know when

445
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:26,960
Speaker 5: they're kind of cruising, but when they hit you know,

446
00:22:27,000 --> 00:22:29,119
Speaker 5: when they get off at the James Road exit, you know,

447
00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:30,879
Speaker 5: they're rolling down the windows and they turn them up

448
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 5: like I got five on it, you know, or whatever,

449
00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 5: the like Deep Bay stuff out of Texas like EUGK

450
00:22:35,400 --> 00:22:39,240
Speaker 5: or whatever. And that was like my experience too. And

451
00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:41,040
Speaker 5: it's funny because like when I got my first car,

452
00:22:41,160 --> 00:22:42,840
Speaker 5: that was also as much as I used to be

453
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:44,080
Speaker 5: on some shit like I'm gonna listen to what I

454
00:22:44,119 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 5: listened to. Wh people are gonna hear. I was still

455
00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:46,200
Speaker 5: that dude.

456
00:22:46,240 --> 00:22:46,399
Speaker 3: You know.

457
00:22:46,640 --> 00:22:50,320
Speaker 5: When I got my first car, it was like late nineties,

458
00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:53,000
Speaker 5: and I remember the big big thing. Although I think

459
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 5: it's funny for people now, I remember when the Nelly

460
00:22:55,320 --> 00:22:59,200
Speaker 5: versus happened and people were like, no one listened to Nelly.

461
00:22:59,480 --> 00:23:02,919
Speaker 5: I was like, oh, oh, y, you know. I mean,

462
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 5: like y'all just don't remember, Like yeah, I think people

463
00:23:05,080 --> 00:23:08,520
Speaker 5: just don't remember because the era of people listening to

464
00:23:08,600 --> 00:23:12,280
Speaker 5: Nelly admittedly wasn't very long. It was long enough, but

465
00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:14,719
Speaker 5: it wasn't like super long, but like people were listening

466
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:17,200
Speaker 5: Like when I got my first car, I listened to

467
00:23:17,280 --> 00:23:19,840
Speaker 5: Country Grammar and I listened to that that Saint Lunatics

468
00:23:19,840 --> 00:23:24,119
Speaker 5: album all of the time, you know, But when I

469
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,240
Speaker 5: was like cruising on the highway, I was listening to like,

470
00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:28,520
Speaker 5: you know, Neutral Milk Hotel.

471
00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,240
Speaker 3: That's the first time we've had a Neutral Milk reference.

472
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:37,200
Speaker 1: I'm Jenkins and Jones.

473
00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:38,240
Speaker 5: I'm very cold that.

474
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:42,440
Speaker 2: I'm so.

475
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:46,120
Speaker 1: I just want to ask you about music generally because

476
00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 1: you I mentioned in the in the first show where

477
00:23:49,800 --> 00:23:52,680
Speaker 1: we talked about the book that I feel like a

478
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,720
Speaker 1: lot of times I don't I don't read I listened

479
00:23:55,720 --> 00:23:56,959
Speaker 1: to music a lot, but I don't read a lot

480
00:23:57,000 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 1: of music criticism because I find a lot of times

481
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:03,240
Speaker 1: that the writing that's good enough to interest me is

482
00:24:03,400 --> 00:24:07,440
Speaker 1: almost it's almost like the writers are afraid to write

483
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: about Alanis Morissett and Nelly because they they're they're looking

484
00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:15,480
Speaker 1: for stuff that hasn't the ground, that hasn't been turned

485
00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:19,000
Speaker 1: over as often, right, And it's like you're writing about Fleetwood,

486
00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 1: Mac and Prince and like much more well known stuff

487
00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:27,359
Speaker 1: which I appreciated. I want to just ask you about

488
00:24:27,600 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: music itself.

489
00:24:29,200 --> 00:24:32,679
Speaker 2: What do you what do you feel like sport?

490
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 3: It's like eating sports music.

491
00:24:35,920 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 1: There's like three or four constants of human civilization, right, Yeah,

492
00:24:40,720 --> 00:24:42,160
Speaker 1: Where do you think it comes from?

493
00:24:42,359 --> 00:24:42,399
Speaker 3: That?

494
00:24:43,480 --> 00:24:45,640
Speaker 1: You know, like we were drawing stuff on the walls

495
00:24:46,000 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 1: and making beats on rocks or whatever eight thousand years ago, Like,

496
00:24:50,480 --> 00:24:52,680
Speaker 1: like what do you think that comes from? And you've

497
00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: seen so many different sides of the musical experience, at

498
00:24:55,920 --> 00:24:58,240
Speaker 1: least in America, Like what is that?

499
00:24:58,359 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 3: Where do you think that comes from?

500
00:24:59,840 --> 00:25:02,600
Speaker 1: And how does that kind of connect people in a

501
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:05,880
Speaker 1: way that as you touch on in the book. Basically

502
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:09,840
Speaker 1: nothing else, including our actual shared humanity, connects people.

503
00:25:10,400 --> 00:25:13,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, I can only speak for myself, and it said

504
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,320
Speaker 5: I have an obsession with sound in the way that

505
00:25:16,520 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 5: sound you know what was wild about the English language,

506
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:22,359
Speaker 5: and perhaps I mean certainly every language, but English is

507
00:25:22,400 --> 00:25:25,520
Speaker 5: only what I'm fluent in, so at least for now.

508
00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 5: But also I grew up learning Arabic that I was

509
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,200
Speaker 5: raised Moslim, and I in some ways I learned Arabic

510
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:42,000
Speaker 5: alongside the learning of English. And this is perhaps a

511
00:25:42,080 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 5: meaningless delineation, but I think when people talk about the

512
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,800
Speaker 5: voice as instrument, I often think, actually, like languages instrument,

513
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:52,120
Speaker 5: and the voice is just kind of the amplifier through

514
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 5: which the instrument travels. And when I think about it

515
00:25:55,080 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 5: like that, I think the most fascinating thing to me

516
00:25:57,200 --> 00:26:00,440
Speaker 5: in Arabic is in in English, is that it's a

517
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,679
Speaker 5: it's a sound work, It's a sound tapestry. If if

518
00:26:04,760 --> 00:26:08,440
Speaker 5: I put certain words next to other words, then I

519
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:10,720
Speaker 5: am in fact building my own symphony.

520
00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:11,119
Speaker 1: Right.

521
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 5: This is perhaps my poetical leanings coming out. You know,

522
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:15,680
Speaker 5: I wrote, I write. I write poetry as well, and

523
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 5: like the experimentation of writing poetry for me is understanding

524
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 5: that language itself can build towards something symphonic if we

525
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,280
Speaker 5: are thoughtful about what words next to what other words?

526
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:34,120
Speaker 5: Words can be percussive, right. I think about this with rappers.

527
00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:38,200
Speaker 5: I mean Llo cool J. I mean not now, I

528
00:26:38,280 --> 00:26:43,600
Speaker 5: mean I'm not talking about like headsprung, but Llo Coolj

529
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:47,200
Speaker 5: in his prime was so ferocious because he understood the

530
00:26:47,280 --> 00:26:50,920
Speaker 5: relentlessness of percussion, like how language could be percussive, right,

531
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,280
Speaker 5: And it felt like he was just hitting you over

532
00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 5: and over and over and over. He's not the only rapper.

533
00:26:56,480 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 5: I mean Jadakiss. We just saw Jadakiss put on a clinic,

534
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:02,840
Speaker 5: like a clinic, and I know that there are other

535
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:05,480
Speaker 5: things happen. There's breath control, there's flow, there's case, but

536
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:08,080
Speaker 5: it was also like a clinic in language, you know,

537
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 5: in modulation of like percussive language goes here, melodic language

538
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:15,439
Speaker 5: goes here. And when you think I'm done being melodic,

539
00:27:16,080 --> 00:27:18,400
Speaker 5: I'm going to push that further so that the percussion

540
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:23,199
Speaker 5: shocks you more. Like the best rappers in delivers of language,

541
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 5: not just rappers, in all of music, I think deliver

542
00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 5: and understanding of not just language, but how language can

543
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:38,600
Speaker 5: be symphonic and so I think music works because there's

544
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,400
Speaker 5: an obsession with sound and the many things that sound

545
00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:45,000
Speaker 5: can do. My voice doesn't sound the way it sounds

546
00:27:45,000 --> 00:27:46,080
Speaker 5: on my head, you know what I'm saying, Like, the

547
00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:47,239
Speaker 5: way I sound in my head is not the way

548
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:50,320
Speaker 5: I sound to you all right now. And I know

549
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,679
Speaker 5: this for a fact, right I've reluctantly begrudgingly heard myself

550
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 5: on recordings that I have to hear myself on, as

551
00:27:57,240 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 5: you all who make podcasts and know you have to

552
00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,080
Speaker 5: do sometimes. And so I know for a fact that

553
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 5: my voice is the way it sounds a different way.

554
00:28:05,320 --> 00:28:07,400
Speaker 5: But if you put me in a room that echoes

555
00:28:07,840 --> 00:28:09,920
Speaker 5: and I say a word, and I hear my voice

556
00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 5: echo off of multiple walls in different ways and return

557
00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 5: to me in all those different ways, I'm gonna be

558
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:18,960
Speaker 5: fascinated by a new even though I know in my

559
00:28:19,040 --> 00:28:20,960
Speaker 5: head like this shit is not the way I think

560
00:28:21,320 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 5: I'm sounding. That's like a high level answer to a

561
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,400
Speaker 5: very simple question. And I apologize, But I do think

562
00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 5: there's a fascination. I mean, babies are fascinated by sound.

563
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:35,399
Speaker 1: We come, you know what I mean, Like, Yeah, you

564
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,560
Speaker 1: can go book at a baby and it's like watching

565
00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:39,640
Speaker 1: the Godfather Part two.

566
00:28:39,640 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? You could do that in

567
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:42,880
Speaker 3: four hours, just.

568
00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:47,400
Speaker 5: Like it's like a baseline understanding that like that, the

569
00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:49,880
Speaker 5: access from an early age, the sense of wonder that

570
00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 5: comes with hearing sound.

571
00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:55,600
Speaker 2: So Hondik Man building off off what you just said.

572
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 2: I don't know if you remember how we got acquainted

573
00:28:57,680 --> 00:29:00,640
Speaker 2: on Twitter, but this was two thousand and seven scene, right,

574
00:29:01,000 --> 00:29:03,280
Speaker 2: and I and I had turned out we need a

575
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:06,600
Speaker 2: ten year appreciation post oral history or something on white

576
00:29:06,640 --> 00:29:09,040
Speaker 2: me down, right, and then you hit me up like

577
00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:11,480
Speaker 2: I kind of wrote something like that, you know what

578
00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,000
Speaker 2: I mean, And you hit me to this piece that

579
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,800
Speaker 2: you wrote, Wipe Me Down in the Battle of Baton Rouge,

580
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 2: where you you kind of drew you you kind of

581
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 2: talked about how how wiped me down and how Baton

582
00:29:24,400 --> 00:29:27,040
Speaker 2: Rouge's moment kind of all tied into, like, you know,

583
00:29:27,160 --> 00:29:31,360
Speaker 2: the resiliency of post Katrina Louisiana people, you know, the

584
00:29:31,680 --> 00:29:34,200
Speaker 2: the emergence of Baton Rouge from New Orleans shadow on

585
00:29:34,240 --> 00:29:36,440
Speaker 2: the rap scene. And I was reading that, like, yo,

586
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:40,000
Speaker 2: this motherfucker's mind is like like, bro, I would have

587
00:29:40,080 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 2: never drew those parallels, you know what I'm saying. And

588
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 2: and and so so going back to what you said,

589
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,040
Speaker 2: and I'm hoping you give another high level answer here,

590
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:49,640
Speaker 2: like how do you see the parallels that you draw

591
00:29:49,720 --> 00:29:53,160
Speaker 2: when you draw you know, things about about music into

592
00:29:54,080 --> 00:29:57,560
Speaker 2: into you know, your societal observations, of your opinions as such.

593
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 5: Think it's because, you know, we learn through the flawed

594
00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:10,080
Speaker 5: nature of America's school system, we learned things about history

595
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:15,320
Speaker 5: that aren't the full story right, And through those understandings,

596
00:30:15,360 --> 00:30:18,360
Speaker 5: I think some of us become more skeptical of history,

597
00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 5: or at least understand that that's not the full story

598
00:30:20,840 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 5: always right. And because I didn't learn about you know,

599
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 5: the song Wiped Me Down in school, or because I

600
00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:30,560
Speaker 5: didn't learn about Fleetwood Max Rumors in school, or whatever

601
00:30:30,600 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 5: the fuck I can, my starting point is there's a

602
00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 5: story here that is beyond this story, like Wipe Me

603
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,840
Speaker 5: Down didn't come out of nowhere. This moment that bad

604
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:44,240
Speaker 5: Rouge had did not come out of nowhere. There's something there.

605
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 5: I was thinking about this yesterday because I was thinking

606
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:51,000
Speaker 5: about mac Miller as I often am, and I was

607
00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 5: thinking about that brief moment in time where it felt

608
00:30:54,640 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 5: like Pittsburgh was going to be the new New York yeah, yeah,

609
00:31:01,560 --> 00:31:02,920
Speaker 5: but they also didn't come out. And I mean if

610
00:31:02,960 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 5: you were there, you know, if you were around when

611
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 5: Mac Miller was selling mixed CDs out of his trunk

612
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:10,480
Speaker 5: of his car, and when Wiz was kind of like,

613
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,320
Speaker 5: you know, emerging slowly, when Chevy Woods was you know,

614
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:18,280
Speaker 5: like all of these things were happening very deliberately, and

615
00:31:18,360 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 5: there was a history that led to them happening, and

616
00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 5: Baton Rouge was no different. And so I'm always asking

617
00:31:22,440 --> 00:31:26,840
Speaker 5: the question of how did this moment, how did the

618
00:31:26,880 --> 00:31:27,640
Speaker 5: moment we see?

619
00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:29,160
Speaker 1: What?

620
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 5: What can we not see that made the moment we

621
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:35,000
Speaker 5: see exist? Like that's always a question for me. And

622
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:37,120
Speaker 5: I didn't even think about Katrina in the history of

623
00:31:37,160 --> 00:31:40,600
Speaker 5: Katrina until I talked to folks who are from Baton Rouge.

624
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:42,720
Speaker 5: For that piece, I talked to folks, you know, I

625
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,719
Speaker 5: wasn't a reported piece, but I know folks from from

626
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 5: New Orleans. I know from folks from Baton Rouge, and

627
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,920
Speaker 5: I know folks whose people fled New Orleans and settled

628
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 5: in Baton Rouge for a bit. And there's there's there's

629
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 5: a history there that makes me remind myself this song

630
00:32:03,200 --> 00:32:04,880
Speaker 5: didn't just come out of nowhere. This moment didn't come

631
00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:08,920
Speaker 5: out of nowhere. And I know, you know, personally, I

632
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 5: would be fine if if I'd never heard Bluesy say

633
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:21,680
Speaker 5: anything again, like anything. But but I you know, that's

634
00:32:21,720 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 5: a tricky thing, right, the art that we create, and

635
00:32:25,040 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 5: the art that means something to us, It exists in

636
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:32,480
Speaker 5: the past that cannot and should not have to answer

637
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:36,640
Speaker 5: for the present or the future. And so I still

638
00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:40,680
Speaker 5: love write me down. Do I wish that Blousy was

639
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:47,440
Speaker 5: not currently relevant in any way, of course, But that

640
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 5: doesn't detract from what that song meant to me a time,

641
00:32:51,120 --> 00:32:53,320
Speaker 5: and what that song like meant to a real community

642
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,200
Speaker 5: of people too, Like that means more than what a

643
00:32:56,280 --> 00:32:58,280
Speaker 5: song meant to me. Always, when I'm examining a song

644
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:00,800
Speaker 5: or thinking about a song, I'm always thinking about, like,

645
00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,560
Speaker 5: what did this mean to a community of people who?

646
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:06,760
Speaker 5: I mean, if we're going to talk about Wiz in Pittsburgh,

647
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:11,120
Speaker 5: Like I remember, I was thinking last night about these

648
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:14,960
Speaker 5: regional songs that become national songs, right, you know, Black

649
00:33:15,000 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 5: and Yellow was very deeply regional. Wile AT's Nike Boots,

650
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 5: you know, was a deeply regional like DC anthem that

651
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:27,320
Speaker 5: like was also on the radio here and that means

652
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:30,440
Speaker 5: that for a moment, I got a window into a

653
00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,920
Speaker 5: world that I don't have access to otherwise. That's a

654
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,320
Speaker 5: real that's a miracle, like Wipe Me Down in sound,

655
00:33:37,520 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 5: in tone I last like a couple of weeks ago,

656
00:33:41,600 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 5: shout out drinks, Brandon Jinks things. I did this thing

657
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 5: with drinks on Mogul. We talked about DJ Screw and

658
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:49,720
Speaker 5: we talked a little Keiky shout out little Keiki also

659
00:33:49,760 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 5: a legends, and we talked about like we talked about

660
00:33:53,080 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 5: Screw and the first time we heard Screw, you know,

661
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,840
Speaker 5: Jinks and I are from Texas, you know, like, and

662
00:33:58,920 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 5: I talked to you know like that was that was

663
00:34:02,880 --> 00:34:06,280
Speaker 5: That was my understanding of Texas. That's how I understood Texas,

664
00:34:06,360 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 5: you know, like I understood slang, and I understood this

665
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:11,839
Speaker 5: type shit this slang, and I understood what the cars

666
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:14,080
Speaker 5: look like. I understood this type this type of thing

667
00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,120
Speaker 5: because that music existed, and Wipe Me Down was kind

668
00:34:17,160 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 5: of no different. And so I can't think about these

669
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:22,359
Speaker 5: songs without thinking about the communities they sprung forth from.

670
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,919
Speaker 5: In those communities, uh, in the windows that were open

671
00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:27,920
Speaker 5: to me as a person growing up in Columbus, Ohio,

672
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:32,239
Speaker 5: who wasn't at that point all that well traveled, who

673
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:35,279
Speaker 5: still got to have access to slang into fashion into

674
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:38,799
Speaker 5: two worlds that I couldn't touch.

675
00:34:39,480 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 1: How do you.

676
00:34:39,960 --> 00:34:41,440
Speaker 3: Approach making a book like this?

677
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:45,239
Speaker 4: I thought it might be like an album where you

678
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 4: write a bunch of a number of essays. Some make it,

679
00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:51,839
Speaker 4: some don't, the ones that are most cohesive, I guess

680
00:34:53,200 --> 00:34:55,279
Speaker 4: is that how I mean? I wonder how the how

681
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 4: you approach this? Also, are there like essays that you

682
00:34:58,400 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 4: were talking about earlier, some aren't ment to be seen

683
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:02,439
Speaker 4: by public that you love.

684
00:35:02,920 --> 00:35:04,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, that didn't make the book as well.

685
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 5: There's one and I know he's in the news again

686
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 5: for unfortunate reasons I don't fully understand, and if chosen

687
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 5: not to look into. But there was one really great

688
00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:18,600
Speaker 5: one on fifty cent that didn't make it about kind

689
00:35:18,640 --> 00:35:22,480
Speaker 5: of like the because I think, I mean, I joke,

690
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 5: we all joke about, like you know, you wasn't outside,

691
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,759
Speaker 5: et cetera, et cetera. But to be the fifty cent era,

692
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:31,400
Speaker 5: the get Richard I try and era is so wild

693
00:35:31,600 --> 00:35:34,839
Speaker 5: and like so hard I think for people to fathom. Now,

694
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:39,120
Speaker 5: there was a point where, much like DMX, I remember

695
00:35:39,440 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 5: there was a point where like I didn't know what

696
00:35:40,719 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 5: DMX looked like. The hype around him was so large,

697
00:35:44,239 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 5: or I remember his when he was DMX a great

698
00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 5: he had that like unsign hype column and the source,

699
00:35:48,320 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 5: but like there was a hype around him that was

700
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 5: so big and I didn't see what he looked like

701
00:35:52,280 --> 00:35:54,080
Speaker 5: until the get at Me Dog video. You know, fifty

702
00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:56,600
Speaker 5: cent was kind of the same way. I remember the

703
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,360
Speaker 5: Power of the Dollar that mixtape, but I didn't know

704
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 5: what he looked like. I just remembered like Ghetto Koran

705
00:36:01,640 --> 00:36:05,839
Speaker 5: and like these songs and then get Richard I try

706
00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:07,520
Speaker 5: and hit and so there was an essay that that

707
00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:09,319
Speaker 5: didn't make it on fifty cents. But you know what's

708
00:36:09,360 --> 00:36:12,359
Speaker 5: wild about they can't kill Us is And I feel

709
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:14,759
Speaker 5: like this story has been the story of the making

710
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,719
Speaker 5: of the book has been a bit glamorized now and

711
00:36:18,800 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 5: a bit exaggerated, But the truth is I wrote it

712
00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 5: in about three and a half weeks. The unpublished parts

713
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 5: we're written in about three and a half weeks in

714
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:35,120
Speaker 5: the winter of twenty sixteen. I was going through a

715
00:36:35,239 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 5: really rough time that was course was later outlined in

716
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 5: my poetry book Fortunree disaster. I was going through like

717
00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:42,560
Speaker 5: a I was going through a divorce, and I was

718
00:36:42,600 --> 00:36:46,320
Speaker 5: going through like a really rough era. And I was

719
00:36:46,400 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 5: living in Connecticut at the time, which I hated. I

720
00:36:48,360 --> 00:36:49,360
Speaker 5: hated to living in Connecticut.

721
00:36:49,400 --> 00:36:49,560
Speaker 3: You know.

722
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:53,320
Speaker 5: I was like, I miss home, and I was preparing

723
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 5: for the next phase of my life, which was undoubtedly

724
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,000
Speaker 5: going to take me out of Connecticut. And I knew

725
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 5: I had to write this book, and I it was winter.

726
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:06,719
Speaker 5: I left Connecticut around like before Thanksgiving to go to Provincetown, Massachusetts,

727
00:37:06,719 --> 00:37:09,840
Speaker 5: on the very edge of the easternmost point of the States,

728
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,320
Speaker 5: and the Provincetown I went there because it's like a

729
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 5: beach town. You know, it's like a big case. It's

730
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,480
Speaker 5: like a tourist y beach area. But in the winter,

731
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,239
Speaker 5: no one's there, Like, no one at all is there

732
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:23,759
Speaker 5: except for maybe, like you know, couple shops keeps who

733
00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 5: stay open and the bar keeps who serve the town

734
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:32,600
Speaker 5: drinkers who stay around. And it gets dark early, you know,

735
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 5: the dad pulled up. I pulled up there and it

736
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 5: was dark by like four point thirty. And because it's

737
00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:42,680
Speaker 5: a beach town, everything closes in the winter kind of

738
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 5: when they want to. There's like one grocery store, and

739
00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:46,840
Speaker 5: the grocery store was like closing kind of whenever it

740
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 5: wanted where it was like if it's noon and no one,

741
00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,960
Speaker 5: no one's coming through, we're closing. And so I had

742
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 5: gotten this routine where I'd get up, I'd run on

743
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,239
Speaker 5: the beach before eleven, I'll go to the grocery store

744
00:37:57,239 --> 00:37:58,879
Speaker 5: and get food for the day, and I would write.

745
00:38:01,160 --> 00:38:03,960
Speaker 5: And at night I would watch movies, you know, or

746
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,080
Speaker 5: i'd watch basketball I'd watched. I got in this habit

747
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:07,879
Speaker 5: of watching.

748
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:15,239
Speaker 3: Like that sounds incredible, that's that's not as you you

749
00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:15,759
Speaker 3: know what I mean.

750
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,400
Speaker 5: It's romantic. It was. It was to be super It

751
00:38:19,480 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 5: is like the most direct depressing point of my adult

752
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:22,440
Speaker 5: life maybe, but it was.

753
00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:25,319
Speaker 4: Right right.

754
00:38:25,760 --> 00:38:28,800
Speaker 5: I had this like I was watching I for some

755
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:33,280
Speaker 5: somehow I had gotten like, uh DVDs are hard drives

756
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 5: of like old NBA Finals series from like when I

757
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 5: was growing up, and so I was watching. I remember

758
00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:44,480
Speaker 5: watching the one game the Sixers took off the Lakers

759
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:47,320
Speaker 5: in that NBA Finals where it was just iverson like

760
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:51,200
Speaker 5: in another universe me all through that playoff series. But

761
00:38:51,239 --> 00:38:53,320
Speaker 5: I remember that one game they took off the Lakers,

762
00:38:53,360 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 5: and I remember watching it over and over again and

763
00:38:55,040 --> 00:38:57,759
Speaker 5: being like because I remember watching that in real time

764
00:38:57,840 --> 00:39:00,239
Speaker 5: and being like every I feel like everyone going into

765
00:39:00,280 --> 00:39:02,759
Speaker 5: that series knew the Sixers had no shot and we

766
00:39:02,840 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 5: had just witnessed them. In some ways, it was reminiscent

767
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 5: of the Hawks this year, where I think like watching them,

768
00:39:10,680 --> 00:39:13,839
Speaker 5: watching the Hawks the Trey Young Hawks kind of get

769
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:16,160
Speaker 5: through the playoffs and the way they did and then

770
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:18,839
Speaker 5: hit the Bucks. It was like, if they take one

771
00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 5: game off this team, that's a miracle.

772
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 1: You know.

773
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,399
Speaker 5: That's how I felt. And I just remember in Provincetown

774
00:39:26,120 --> 00:39:29,240
Speaker 5: at it pitch black at five point thirty PM watching

775
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 5: Alan Iverson in that finals. I just had a lot

776
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 5: of weird archive basketball stuff. It was very Iverson focused.

777
00:39:35,360 --> 00:39:38,719
Speaker 5: I watched iver since Georgetown game against like the Ray

778
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:42,080
Speaker 5: Allen Yukon Huskies, and you know, and like there was

779
00:39:42,160 --> 00:39:45,040
Speaker 5: something about this as a basketball fan, you know, I'm

780
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:47,040
Speaker 5: sure I grew up playing basketball and I'm short. I'm

781
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 5: very short. I'm like five six and I always wanted

782
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 5: to be Alan Iverson. I was never always wanted to

783
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 5: be Allan Iverson, but I was more like an earl boykends.

784
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,239
Speaker 5: You know, I can't really, but I can facilitate. I

785
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 5: won't turn the ball over. But you know, I never

786
00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,239
Speaker 5: wanted to be Michael Jordan. I always wanted to be

787
00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:08,880
Speaker 5: on Iverson, And so I had all of this Iverson

788
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 5: archival footage I was watching while working on this book

789
00:40:11,560 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 5: for some reason, like Georgetown Iverson six Ers, Iverson Nugget

790
00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:21,400
Speaker 5: underrated Nuggets Iverson, which is actually, I think some of

791
00:40:21,480 --> 00:40:23,919
Speaker 5: his best basketball. But yeah, I had all this ship

792
00:40:24,000 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 5: that I was just watching it at night, and that

793
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:27,000
Speaker 5: is how the book was written.

794
00:40:27,520 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 3: How's the process?

795
00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 4: Like, I appreciate the process, but I don't enjoy writing,

796
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 4: you know what I mean. Like it's fulfilling, but it's

797
00:40:35,040 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 4: not fun. Your work is like, you know, it's very beautiful,

798
00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:40,960
Speaker 4: but you explore some you know, pretty.

799
00:40:40,800 --> 00:40:43,920
Speaker 3: Dark you know subjects. What does your process look like?

800
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:44,760
Speaker 3: What's that experience?

801
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:49,359
Speaker 5: Like, Oh, I take to the work with a lot

802
00:40:49,400 --> 00:40:53,080
Speaker 5: of excitement. You know, I'm very I'm a big Tony

803
00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 5: Morrison disciple in part. You know, we're both Ohioans, and

804
00:40:56,960 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 5: she is for me, the greatest Ohioan. It's like her

805
00:41:01,200 --> 00:41:05,839
Speaker 5: lebronic too. And you know, then there's probably a wide

806
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:07,920
Speaker 5: gap for getting to some of the other folks. But

807
00:41:10,640 --> 00:41:12,040
Speaker 5: and there are a great many other folks. I don't

808
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:14,160
Speaker 5: want people hear this and start sending me other great Ohioans.

809
00:41:14,160 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 5: Trust me, I know them.

810
00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 2: Crazy about But.

811
00:41:18,120 --> 00:41:20,400
Speaker 5: You know there was an excitement. Yeah, yeah, you know

812
00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:25,040
Speaker 5: what I mean, Like I try to take to the

813
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 5: work with an excitement and whether some of that's through

814
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:31,080
Speaker 5: because I believe in research as a tool of like

815
00:41:31,320 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 5: unlocking pleasure and things I didn't know before. There's so

816
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 5: much stuff I don't know in writing or researching gives

817
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:40,800
Speaker 5: me an opportunity to kind of tap into things I

818
00:41:40,840 --> 00:41:43,160
Speaker 5: don't know. And when I'm tapping into things I don't know,

819
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:45,759
Speaker 5: I'm a most exit. I'm most excited as a writer,

820
00:41:46,280 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 5: and I just want to run. You know, when I

821
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:50,759
Speaker 5: was working on my new book, when I was working

822
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:53,239
Speaker 5: on a little Bevel in America, the opening chapter is

823
00:41:53,320 --> 00:41:57,359
Speaker 5: this piece about Soul Train and Don Cornelius. And I've

824
00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,719
Speaker 5: gotten this hard drive of every Soul Time episode from

825
00:42:00,800 --> 00:42:03,480
Speaker 5: like the early seventies to the late eighties, and I

826
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:05,640
Speaker 5: just watched it all the time I'm working on this.

827
00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:09,320
Speaker 5: This piece is one piece I watched hundreds, if not thousands,

828
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 5: of hours of soul training, and when I was done,

829
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:16,560
Speaker 5: I was like, this is the writing. This the Soul

830
00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 5: Train episodes are the writing. The fact that I could

831
00:42:19,160 --> 00:42:22,120
Speaker 5: see Jody Wattley performing as a soul trained dancer and

832
00:42:22,160 --> 00:42:24,120
Speaker 5: then see her on the soul trained stage. That's that

833
00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:27,400
Speaker 5: is the essay. My job is to just be a vessel,

834
00:42:27,480 --> 00:42:30,040
Speaker 5: to be an evangelist for what has already happened, and

835
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 5: that is exciting work that piece. And they can't kill

836
00:42:32,840 --> 00:42:36,080
Speaker 5: us about Iverson's crossover. Like I remember seeing that shit

837
00:42:36,120 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 5: as a kid and not having the language to explain

838
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,400
Speaker 5: how excited it made me. And now that I have

839
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:43,520
Speaker 5: the language, what else am I to do but be like, y'all,

840
00:42:43,640 --> 00:42:45,480
Speaker 5: this shit happened, Like you might not have been there,

841
00:42:45,520 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 5: but this happened, you know what I mean? And like

842
00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:49,520
Speaker 5: I know what happened because other people who I know

843
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 5: saw it happen alongside me. And we don't know each

844
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,239
Speaker 5: other yet, but because we witnessed this at the same time,

845
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,160
Speaker 5: we all know each other, you know, And so there's

846
00:42:57,560 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 5: there's a pleasure I take, you know. And even when

847
00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 5: I'm a pro watching subjects that are difficult, you know,

848
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 5: the piece, the centerpiece of the book is maybe fall

849
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:07,799
Speaker 5: Out Boy Forever, and that was a hard thing to write.

850
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:12,120
Speaker 5: It's a hard thing to sit with now. But I

851
00:43:12,239 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 5: got to bring someone I love back to life for

852
00:43:14,280 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 5: a little bit, you know, As someone who's lost a

853
00:43:17,000 --> 00:43:19,600
Speaker 5: lot of people in my life, it's a blessing to

854
00:43:19,719 --> 00:43:24,080
Speaker 5: get to have access to language that reanimates the way

855
00:43:24,120 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 5: I feel about someone, and it gets to bring them

856
00:43:28,960 --> 00:43:35,000
Speaker 5: fully rendered into a world that I'm making. If I'm

857
00:43:35,239 --> 00:43:37,840
Speaker 5: thinking about this as though I'm building a museum of

858
00:43:38,000 --> 00:43:42,040
Speaker 5: my own, a museum of my own making, every wing

859
00:43:42,120 --> 00:43:44,719
Speaker 5: of that museum cannot hold only grief, you know what

860
00:43:44,760 --> 00:43:48,759
Speaker 5: I'm saying. It's got to hold the pleasure that gets

861
00:43:48,840 --> 00:43:52,279
Speaker 5: me both into and out of the grief. Grief is

862
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,640
Speaker 5: a tunnel, man, And like, if you fucking around with

863
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:59,719
Speaker 5: it and don't think about your entrances and exits as

864
00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:06,560
Speaker 5: as pleasureful or perhaps joyful or perhaps critical moments, then

865
00:44:06,600 --> 00:44:09,120
Speaker 5: your tunnel of grief is gonna be never ending and

866
00:44:09,200 --> 00:44:10,839
Speaker 5: you're just never gonna be able to wind a way

867
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:12,960
Speaker 5: out of it. And yeah, sometimes it's longer for me

868
00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:14,600
Speaker 5: the other times, but that shit, you got to really

869
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:16,439
Speaker 5: honor the fact that that's a tunnel so it needs

870
00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:18,720
Speaker 5: to have an entrance in the next.

871
00:44:18,560 --> 00:44:23,879
Speaker 2: Sit Real shit, I was gonna say, I'm going back

872
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:26,719
Speaker 2: to you know what you said about your your Iverson piece,

873
00:44:26,760 --> 00:44:28,879
Speaker 2: because that's one of my favorite pieces and they can't

874
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:32,080
Speaker 2: kill us. It rained in Columbus, Ohio the night I

875
00:44:32,080 --> 00:44:36,880
Speaker 2: obviously crossed over Michael Jordan. And there are certain writers

876
00:44:36,960 --> 00:44:38,279
Speaker 2: that when you make of them, you know, you think

877
00:44:38,320 --> 00:44:39,560
Speaker 2: of where they're from, and when I think of you,

878
00:44:39,840 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 2: of course I think of Columbus and because it plays

879
00:44:42,239 --> 00:44:43,880
Speaker 2: such a huge part of their writing, you know, like

880
00:44:44,080 --> 00:44:46,759
Speaker 2: like Baldwin and Harlem are intrinsically linked, you know, saying

881
00:44:46,800 --> 00:44:49,600
Speaker 2: for like Nikko Giovanni and Tennessee. But you know, whereas

882
00:44:49,640 --> 00:44:52,360
Speaker 2: these writers, yeah, are kind of like fleshing out places

883
00:44:52,440 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 2: they're familiar with. Like we're all familiar with NYC, even

884
00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:57,120
Speaker 2: if we've never once been there before, because it's all

885
00:44:57,160 --> 00:44:59,640
Speaker 2: over TVs and movies and such, so you know, we're

886
00:44:59,680 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 2: familiar with NYC. And you know, Bolding's writing like it

887
00:45:03,040 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 2: fleshes it out for us. And you know, I mentioned

888
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:07,520
Speaker 2: NIKOI Giovanni. Her backdrop was, you know often like the

889
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 2: country back roads of Tennessee. And even if we've never

890
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 2: been to her particular neck of the woods. We're all

891
00:45:11,480 --> 00:45:13,439
Speaker 2: familiar with the country in some aspect, you know, because

892
00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 2: lots of us spent summers down there and all that.

893
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:18,600
Speaker 2: And you know, Columbus plays such a huge part in

894
00:45:18,680 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 2: your writing, and you know, no shots to Columbus, but

895
00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:22,960
Speaker 2: lots of us don't know shit about Columbus, you know

896
00:45:23,000 --> 00:45:25,440
Speaker 2: what I mean. So, so yeah, yes, yeah, So you know,

897
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:28,440
Speaker 2: it puts you in a unique situation where you're not

898
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:30,439
Speaker 2: in a well known place where you're flushing out something

899
00:45:30,480 --> 00:45:32,960
Speaker 2: familiar for the reader, but you've been provided with a

900
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:35,600
Speaker 2: blank canvas, so to speak, where you're painting the whole

901
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 2: picture of Columbus for us. So so, so, how does

902
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,040
Speaker 2: it feel to be in, you know, a unique circumstance

903
00:45:40,160 --> 00:45:41,720
Speaker 2: like that, you know, coming from Columbus?

904
00:45:43,640 --> 00:45:45,080
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, I would guess a lot of us

905
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 5: are like of a similar age, and so y'all can

906
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:50,040
Speaker 5: relate to this. But I grew up in kind of

907
00:45:50,120 --> 00:45:54,719
Speaker 5: like this era of black coming of age film, be

908
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 5: it like Juice, Boys in the Hood, men of Society,

909
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:02,640
Speaker 5: South Central so and so forth. And that means that

910
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:07,520
Speaker 5: I witnessed black youth through a very coastal lens, you know,

911
00:46:08,800 --> 00:46:12,240
Speaker 5: and but a lens that did not feel that different

912
00:46:12,320 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 5: from my own. Like there's the scene of the kids

913
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,600
Speaker 5: and boys in the hood in the beginning, and I

914
00:46:17,640 --> 00:46:20,880
Speaker 5: remember being like, well, that's not that different from the

915
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:22,480
Speaker 5: type of shit me and my boys to get up

916
00:46:22,480 --> 00:46:26,320
Speaker 5: to in our neighborhood in Columbus. And there are elements

917
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:29,640
Speaker 5: of this that aren't as different, And there are elements

918
00:46:29,680 --> 00:46:32,359
Speaker 5: of juice that, looking back, weren't that different. I would

919
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:33,840
Speaker 5: watch above the Rim and be like, this is like

920
00:46:33,920 --> 00:46:36,760
Speaker 5: the gus Macker, you know, like this is a Gusmacker

921
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 5: in Columbus. This tournament looks familiar with all this stuff.

922
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 5: I was like, if there's all these familiarities in these

923
00:46:42,040 --> 00:46:45,320
Speaker 5: narratives that are supposed to be explicitly coastal and specifically coastal,

924
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:52,399
Speaker 5: maybe my city is actually not that unworthy of having

925
00:46:52,520 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 5: stories told about it, you know, like maybe my city

926
00:46:56,680 --> 00:46:59,279
Speaker 5: is also My first book of poems, Are Crying Worth

927
00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 5: Much Is was wholly inspired by Good Kid, Mad City.

928
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:04,200
Speaker 5: Good Kid Mad City came out and I listened to

929
00:47:04,320 --> 00:47:08,439
Speaker 5: it and I was like, conceptually, this is a piece

930
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:11,400
Speaker 5: about like coming of age and Compton right, and I

931
00:47:11,520 --> 00:47:13,680
Speaker 5: was like, I have a book, and you have a

932
00:47:13,719 --> 00:47:17,399
Speaker 5: book of poems that I know can mirror this coming

933
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 5: of age story in an ever changing city, you know,

934
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:25,000
Speaker 5: And that's what I did, and I think that so

935
00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:27,320
Speaker 5: much of my work from that point on was like,

936
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:33,879
Speaker 5: how can I tell stories in a way that makes

937
00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:36,200
Speaker 5: people feel like my city is their city or my city,

938
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 5: or they've seen a city like my city close to

939
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 5: their city, or they've set foot in a city like

940
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:42,960
Speaker 5: my city. How can I talk about a barbershop and

941
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,600
Speaker 5: have you think about your barbershop even though it's my barbershop,

942
00:47:46,400 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 5: you know what I mean? How can I talk about

943
00:47:48,239 --> 00:47:51,839
Speaker 5: a fist fight happening in a schoolyard, even though even

944
00:47:51,840 --> 00:47:54,880
Speaker 5: if it is my fists. How can I make them

945
00:47:54,880 --> 00:47:56,880
Speaker 5: feel like your fists, or that you are witnessing a

946
00:47:56,920 --> 00:47:59,040
Speaker 5: fight that you've witnessed before in a school yard close

947
00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:01,960
Speaker 5: to you, These kind of things. I don't think that

948
00:48:02,080 --> 00:48:05,279
Speaker 5: takes skill. I just think it takes trust. You know,

949
00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:07,880
Speaker 5: I don't think I'm overly skilled at scene setting. I

950
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:12,560
Speaker 5: think I just refuse explanation, and through that refusal, I'm

951
00:48:12,600 --> 00:48:15,960
Speaker 5: saying I trust you to visualize where I'm at, because

952
00:48:15,960 --> 00:48:19,560
Speaker 5: it's not all that different from where you're at. Yeah,

953
00:48:19,640 --> 00:48:22,360
Speaker 5: I mean like there are some things exclusive to Columbus

954
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:28,960
Speaker 5: that I that that don't exist anywhere else. And and

955
00:48:29,040 --> 00:48:31,240
Speaker 5: this is because I'm a close reader and close watcher

956
00:48:31,280 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 5: of culture. It's that thing I talked about before about

957
00:48:33,040 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 5: how music, about how DJ Screw or like the Gfunk

958
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:40,839
Speaker 5: era or all this shit gave me access to these

959
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:44,440
Speaker 5: worlds that I didn't know I was but I but

960
00:48:44,520 --> 00:48:46,200
Speaker 5: I could. I could touch, I could feel them, I

961
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,799
Speaker 5: could sense them. You know when a chronic came out,

962
00:48:50,440 --> 00:48:54,239
Speaker 5: motherfuckers was in Columbus putting daytons on cars. You know,

963
00:48:55,640 --> 00:48:57,319
Speaker 5: it was like weather be damn, you know what I mean,

964
00:48:57,440 --> 00:48:59,880
Speaker 5: like unpredictable, whether be damn. We putting datons on these cars.

965
00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,879
Speaker 5: You know, when people were you know when when people

966
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 5: were low riding Cadillacs and shit, when you know, ugk

967
00:49:07,960 --> 00:49:12,120
Speaker 5: either this type of stuff was happening. And my whole

968
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:14,640
Speaker 5: thing was when you grow up in a city like that,

969
00:49:16,080 --> 00:49:18,800
Speaker 5: that is a container for other cities, the culture of

970
00:49:18,880 --> 00:49:23,000
Speaker 5: other cities. You know when when Early's when averx Jackets

971
00:49:23,040 --> 00:49:25,600
Speaker 5: was popping, motherfuckers here were wearing averxes in summer. I

972
00:49:25,719 --> 00:49:26,879
Speaker 5: was one of them. You know, it's one of those

973
00:49:26,880 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 5: people was wearing axes and like seventy weather. Wow, it's

974
00:49:32,719 --> 00:49:33,600
Speaker 5: because right.

975
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,160
Speaker 3: Leather is a motherfucker man. There's like twenty pounds of

976
00:49:36,280 --> 00:49:37,359
Speaker 3: leather too, you know what I mean.

977
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:44,440
Speaker 2: He was Eddie Murphy in the eighties out here brighth.

978
00:49:42,680 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 3: Wet as fuck under that damn jacket. But anyway, it's why.

979
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 5: You know, it's like, when you grew up in a

980
00:49:48,800 --> 00:49:50,880
Speaker 5: city like that that's a container for the culture of

981
00:49:50,920 --> 00:49:54,680
Speaker 5: other cities, you can lose sight of the fact that

982
00:49:54,800 --> 00:50:00,080
Speaker 5: your city itself can also drive a conversation around on

983
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,920
Speaker 5: how people think about place from where they're at, you

984
00:50:03,000 --> 00:50:04,680
Speaker 5: know what I mean. And so I wanted to kind

985
00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:08,360
Speaker 5: of after spending for real a lot of time witnessing

986
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:12,319
Speaker 5: and taking part in the mimicry and mirroring of New

987
00:50:12,400 --> 00:50:18,640
Speaker 5: York or Los Angeles or Texas or Atlanta, and some

988
00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:20,759
Speaker 5: of this is by virtual migration, you know, like black

989
00:50:20,800 --> 00:50:25,680
Speaker 5: folks you know where. You know, Chicago is a city,

990
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:27,840
Speaker 5: but it's also like a southern state. Detroit is like

991
00:50:27,920 --> 00:50:30,600
Speaker 5: a southern state, you know, in some ways, Cleveland is

992
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:32,080
Speaker 5: like a southern state. So some of this is still

993
00:50:32,160 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 5: going to do that. But I did also want to

994
00:50:34,080 --> 00:50:37,759
Speaker 5: present a world where it's like, well, Columbus, I grew

995
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,200
Speaker 5: up in this place and it's real, much like where

996
00:50:40,200 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 5: you grew up was real. And I feel like I

997
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 5: can articulate that in a way that that allows you

998
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:45,320
Speaker 5: to feel something.

999
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:50,080
Speaker 1: This is the last question for me and that I've got, guys.

1000
00:50:50,080 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: I highlighted some of the reader questions that we can

1001
00:50:52,000 --> 00:50:56,320
Speaker 1: throw in as well after you've asked yours. You've mentioned

1002
00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,880
Speaker 1: that you're a poet, you know, as well as as

1003
00:51:00,960 --> 00:51:04,520
Speaker 1: being a critic and doing the kind of prose writing

1004
00:51:04,600 --> 00:51:09,839
Speaker 1: that we read in the book. How different is your

1005
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:14,640
Speaker 1: approach when you're sitting down to write one versus the other?

1006
00:51:14,840 --> 00:51:16,759
Speaker 1: Can you not do those back to back? Is it

1007
00:51:16,840 --> 00:51:19,200
Speaker 1: a completely different mindset or does it all feel like

1008
00:51:19,480 --> 00:51:20,600
Speaker 1: kind of one process to you?

1009
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:22,840
Speaker 5: I always wish I had a better answer for this,

1010
00:51:22,920 --> 00:51:25,040
Speaker 5: but I don't. It's this is the same because I'm

1011
00:51:25,040 --> 00:51:27,160
Speaker 5: not really governed by genre. I'm kind of governed by

1012
00:51:27,960 --> 00:51:31,200
Speaker 5: curiosities and excitements, and I sit down to write, oftentimes

1013
00:51:31,320 --> 00:51:33,799
Speaker 5: not knowing what I'm writing until it emerges. But there's

1014
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:37,960
Speaker 5: a freedom in that too, because it's like it clarifies

1015
00:51:38,000 --> 00:51:39,920
Speaker 5: itself not only in an editing process, but in the

1016
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 5: writing process too. You look at a piece and they

1017
00:51:43,120 --> 00:51:45,320
Speaker 5: can't kill us. Like the finance Ohio's name of a band,

1018
00:51:46,239 --> 00:51:49,760
Speaker 5: that piece is almost genreless and formed. You know, in structure,

1019
00:51:49,760 --> 00:51:52,120
Speaker 5: it's just one run. It's like one long run on sentence.

1020
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:57,800
Speaker 5: And in order to be comfortable with that and not

1021
00:51:57,920 --> 00:51:59,560
Speaker 5: want to tweak it or not want to adjust it

1022
00:51:59,719 --> 00:52:03,160
Speaker 5: for aesthetics, I gotta be able to say, Okay, well,

1023
00:52:04,000 --> 00:52:07,280
Speaker 5: genre no longer means anything to me when I'm sitting

1024
00:52:07,320 --> 00:52:09,279
Speaker 5: down to write. I'm sitting down thinking about how this

1025
00:52:09,320 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 5: will sound to the ear, or how to look on

1026
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 5: the page, or how to draw people in. That kind

1027
00:52:13,640 --> 00:52:15,720
Speaker 5: of stuff governs me more than the idea of genre.

1028
00:52:15,840 --> 00:52:18,239
Speaker 5: Of course, I believe there is a difference between a

1029
00:52:18,280 --> 00:52:20,760
Speaker 5: poem and an essay. I'm not saying, you know, genre

1030
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 5: be damned otherwise, I've you know, lied to folks. But

1031
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 5: you know, I certainly have essay books and poetry books

1032
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:29,800
Speaker 5: and all that, But I don't sit down thinking about

1033
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:30,799
Speaker 5: writing one or the other.

1034
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:34,520
Speaker 1: John Tyler, you have any other questions before we get

1035
00:52:34,520 --> 00:52:36,440
Speaker 1: to the some of the ones the reader's email.

1036
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:39,879
Speaker 2: Then, yeah, I got one last one so I saw

1037
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 2: that that you were you are commissioned by the Marvin

1038
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:46,960
Speaker 2: Gayest State to do the preface on the fiftieth anniversary

1039
00:52:47,000 --> 00:52:49,279
Speaker 2: of What's going on? So congrats on that man. First off,

1040
00:52:49,840 --> 00:52:52,360
Speaker 2: that was cool. Yeah. So I'm wondering because you know,

1041
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,120
Speaker 2: and they can't kill us. Every part is you know,

1042
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 2: preface by Marvin Gay piece on when he performed the

1043
00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 2: national anthem that time. So is that what make the

1044
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:00,960
Speaker 2: the that the gayest they reach out to?

1045
00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:01,160
Speaker 1: You? Like?

1046
00:53:01,239 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 3: Is that what they are?

1047
00:53:02,080 --> 00:53:06,919
Speaker 5: Or I think maybe I've also written I've written about

1048
00:53:06,920 --> 00:53:09,600
Speaker 5: Marvin gay a lot because I'm fascinated. I mean, my

1049
00:53:10,400 --> 00:53:12,480
Speaker 5: last poetry book of Fortune for Your Disaster, is kind

1050
00:53:12,480 --> 00:53:14,920
Speaker 5: of tied together through a series of Marvin Gay poems,

1051
00:53:17,040 --> 00:53:23,200
Speaker 5: and I'm just very fascinated by Marvin Gaye's flaws and

1052
00:53:23,840 --> 00:53:29,120
Speaker 5: immense gifts. And you know, I actually don't think, you know,

1053
00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:31,120
Speaker 5: I was thankful to write that, and I do think

1054
00:53:31,120 --> 00:53:33,320
Speaker 5: I did an okay job. But you know, the Marveinn

1055
00:53:33,320 --> 00:53:35,640
Speaker 5: Gay albums that fascinate me the most are Let's Get

1056
00:53:35,680 --> 00:53:39,640
Speaker 5: It On and Here My Dear. I don't think those

1057
00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:41,040
Speaker 5: are the best. I mean, I do think what's going

1058
00:53:41,080 --> 00:53:45,440
Speaker 5: on is probably the best album of his but as

1059
00:53:45,520 --> 00:53:47,560
Speaker 5: we know, I mean critically, there's a difference between like

1060
00:53:47,800 --> 00:53:50,399
Speaker 5: the best and the ship that compels us the most,

1061
00:53:51,120 --> 00:53:54,080
Speaker 5: you know. And so while I do think what's going

1062
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:56,240
Speaker 5: on is the best Marvin Gay album is so compelled

1063
00:53:56,280 --> 00:53:58,960
Speaker 5: by here, my Dear and let's get it on, which

1064
00:53:59,040 --> 00:54:03,520
Speaker 5: is this Let's get it on. It's just like really chaotic, frantic,

1065
00:54:03,960 --> 00:54:07,200
Speaker 5: lonely album. I think people think about it by its

1066
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:10,480
Speaker 5: title track. So there's like, you know, putting the spotlight on,

1067
00:54:10,640 --> 00:54:12,600
Speaker 5: like this is now about sex, and like, yes, it's

1068
00:54:12,640 --> 00:54:15,680
Speaker 5: about sex, but it's also about like emptiness, you know,

1069
00:54:16,320 --> 00:54:18,319
Speaker 5: and it's so chaotic. I don't think people think about

1070
00:54:18,320 --> 00:54:20,359
Speaker 5: it as a chaotic album. That shit is chaotic as hell.

1071
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:23,759
Speaker 5: And so yeah, I think because I've written so much

1072
00:54:23,760 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 5: about Marvin Gay, they were kind of interesting and I

1073
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,120
Speaker 5: do with that. And that's honestly, like one of the

1074
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:31,120
Speaker 5: biggest honors of my life was to get to do that.

1075
00:54:31,320 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 2: That's awesome, bro, my dog and some of that Robin

1076
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:41,040
Speaker 2: Thick settlement money. Man, I'm happy for you, bro, you

1077
00:54:41,160 --> 00:54:45,680
Speaker 2: know what I mean, look at a universal Yeah, that's

1078
00:54:45,719 --> 00:54:46,040
Speaker 2: gonna be.

1079
00:54:46,480 --> 00:54:54,560
Speaker 1: Question, all right. I Kevin asks in the book you

1080
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: wrote even now, I'm not as invested in things getting

1081
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,960
Speaker 1: better as I am in things getting on in Kevin

1082
00:55:01,000 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: wants to know do you still feel that way? And

1083
00:55:03,640 --> 00:55:05,839
Speaker 1: do you feel like things have gotten more or less

1084
00:55:05,880 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 1: honest since you wrote that essay?

1085
00:55:09,440 --> 00:55:15,640
Speaker 5: Oh, I think people have had to become more honest

1086
00:55:15,680 --> 00:55:18,120
Speaker 5: with themselves. The individual has had to become more honest

1087
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:24,359
Speaker 5: with themselves, which means that industry, institution, capital, empire, etc.

1088
00:55:25,320 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 5: Has had to compact that by becoming less honest with

1089
00:55:28,600 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 5: the people, even less honest than it already was. Right.

1090
00:55:34,239 --> 00:55:36,000
Speaker 5: I think that's the essay where I said some shit, like,

1091
00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:37,920
Speaker 5: you know, like it's been a bad year and it's

1092
00:55:37,960 --> 00:55:40,400
Speaker 5: gonna get worse. And people hammered me so much for that.

1093
00:55:40,440 --> 00:55:42,640
Speaker 5: People are like, I love this essay, but why are

1094
00:55:42,719 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 5: you ending on a note of hope, And it's like,

1095
00:55:45,239 --> 00:55:49,200
Speaker 5: because I know better? Because I know better, and I

1096
00:55:49,280 --> 00:55:51,960
Speaker 5: think most of the I mean a lot of people

1097
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:54,360
Speaker 5: in general, but like if I'm honing in specifically, a

1098
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 5: lot of black folks know better. And you know, in

1099
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 5: twenty seventeen was indeed worse, you know, And I don't

1100
00:56:02,680 --> 00:56:06,440
Speaker 5: think worse means more hopeless, because I do think that

1101
00:56:06,600 --> 00:56:08,480
Speaker 5: people I know and love have had to become more

1102
00:56:08,520 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 5: honest with themselves. And that's not an act of hopelessness.

1103
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:16,000
Speaker 5: That's an act of great care. Takes great care. To

1104
00:56:16,080 --> 00:56:20,520
Speaker 5: be honest with yourself takes great It's a delicate practice

1105
00:56:20,520 --> 00:56:23,680
Speaker 5: to be honest with yourself. And so I do think

1106
00:56:23,800 --> 00:56:26,360
Speaker 5: that is something that has happened. And I think Kevin's

1107
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 5: question is good, and I'm sorry that I'm not more hopeful,

1108
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 5: But I think the more honest individuals become, the less honest,

1109
00:56:36,120 --> 00:56:40,879
Speaker 5: the less honest or the everywhere else will will find

1110
00:56:41,080 --> 00:56:43,719
Speaker 5: less of a commitment to honesty. To combat that, or

1111
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 5: to attempt to combat that.

1112
00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:47,480
Speaker 1: If I could offer a brief commentary on what you

1113
00:56:47,600 --> 00:56:50,480
Speaker 1: pointed out is the difference in the American and Italian

1114
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:57,759
Speaker 1: reactions to the book. People in America are embarrassed or

1115
00:56:57,960 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 1: angry at the reality that you described, and so they

1116
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:06,360
Speaker 1: feel that you are the cause of that in some regard.

1117
00:57:06,520 --> 00:57:10,800
Speaker 1: Right in Italy, if we're reading about if we in

1118
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:15,360
Speaker 1: America are reading about Italy's treatment of refugees from Africa,

1119
00:57:16,640 --> 00:57:20,840
Speaker 1: we are seeing that as their problem. And so we're

1120
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:24,080
Speaker 1: not saying, oh, this person is cynical, because he's accurately

1121
00:57:24,200 --> 00:57:29,280
Speaker 1: describing a shitty situation. Right, So I felt, and I

1122
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:31,920
Speaker 1: know you described yourself in this interview and in the

1123
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:36,640
Speaker 1: book as not necessarily being an optimistic person. What I

1124
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 1: loved about the book was you're a realist. But who

1125
00:57:39,480 --> 00:57:43,600
Speaker 1: says things like getting to listen to music from where

1126
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:45,600
Speaker 1: I'm from in Long Beach? Is that you describe that

1127
00:57:45,640 --> 00:57:46,280
Speaker 1: as a miracle?

1128
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:47,040
Speaker 5: Right?

1129
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 1: You write about music beautifully like you see the You

1130
00:57:51,480 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 1: see the world clearly, I guess, and sometimes because the

1131
00:57:56,360 --> 00:58:00,840
Speaker 1: world fucking sucks in many regards, or maybe that comes

1132
00:58:00,920 --> 00:58:03,800
Speaker 1: across as more cynical, Right, But I like your use

1133
00:58:03,880 --> 00:58:06,000
Speaker 1: of the word honesty there because I think that's a

1134
00:58:06,080 --> 00:58:09,400
Speaker 1: better that's more accurate than just trying to frame it

1135
00:58:09,520 --> 00:58:12,880
Speaker 1: as do you end things on happier sad notes? Right,

1136
00:58:13,080 --> 00:58:16,280
Speaker 1: Like honesty is a more useful way of thinking of that.

1137
00:58:17,280 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 5: Yeah, I think so.

1138
00:58:19,200 --> 00:58:21,760
Speaker 1: All right. Brad is a high school English teacher, and

1139
00:58:22,400 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 1: this is a great question for writer. I wish i'd

1140
00:58:24,120 --> 00:58:26,000
Speaker 1: thought of this. My wife is high school English teacher.

1141
00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:29,560
Speaker 1: What would you if you what would you recommend him

1142
00:58:29,680 --> 00:58:32,240
Speaker 1: to teach his high school students? What do you think

1143
00:58:32,240 --> 00:58:34,320
Speaker 1: would be useful for high school kids to read that

1144
00:58:34,600 --> 00:58:37,160
Speaker 1: you know, might not necessarily be in the regular curriculum.

1145
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:41,439
Speaker 5: That's a great question. Thanks to Brad and your Life

1146
00:58:41,480 --> 00:58:44,520
Speaker 5: for their work. You know, like without you know, I

1147
00:58:44,560 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 5: didn't consider myself a writer even in high school. But

1148
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:50,680
Speaker 5: without the guidance of Sheila Dixon, who I still talk

1149
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 5: to from time to time to this day, I think

1150
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:55,920
Speaker 5: that my ability and belief in myself is someone who

1151
00:58:56,000 --> 00:59:00,880
Speaker 5: could understand and comprehend and think about language. So that's

1152
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 5: really good work. I am bad at this because I'm

1153
00:59:08,840 --> 00:59:12,640
Speaker 5: always like, you know, I don't know, like kids should

1154
00:59:12,680 --> 00:59:15,160
Speaker 5: the high school students should read the Revolutionary Letters by

1155
00:59:15,200 --> 00:59:18,240
Speaker 5: the end of prima uh, and I think that schools

1156
00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:20,440
Speaker 5: would not want high school kids to read the Revolutionary

1157
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:23,600
Speaker 5: Letters by the end of prima and so uh. But

1158
00:59:24,440 --> 00:59:26,320
Speaker 5: you know, I think high school student should read Beloved

1159
00:59:26,400 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 5: by Tony Morrison or Jazz by Tony Morrison. I think

1160
00:59:30,440 --> 00:59:32,920
Speaker 5: high school students should return to Virginia Hamilton and read

1161
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:36,360
Speaker 5: The People Could Fly. They should read folklore and folk tales.

1162
00:59:38,680 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 5: You know, if we're thinking contemporary works, then you know,

1163
00:59:44,400 --> 00:59:47,320
Speaker 5: Luster by Raven Lelani is a book. I love, a

1164
00:59:47,400 --> 00:59:50,560
Speaker 5: fiction book. I love so much that I wish when

1165
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,240
Speaker 5: I read, you know, fiction now, you know, I think

1166
00:59:53,280 --> 00:59:55,640
Speaker 5: about books that I wish I would have had access

1167
00:59:55,680 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 5: to when I was in high school, books I just

1168
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 5: weren't out yet, or poetry books that weren't out yet,

1169
01:00:00,280 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 5: you know. Yeah, they should read Harmony Holiday to put

1170
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 5: Harmony Holiday all of her work jazz, you know, for

1171
01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 5: Uncle Tom specifically, these are this is why I'm bad

1172
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:17,040
Speaker 5: at this because I feel like if I actually put

1173
01:00:17,120 --> 01:00:24,520
Speaker 5: these things in from a high school student curriculum, yeahselves

1174
01:00:24,560 --> 01:00:29,440
Speaker 5: would be like, we literally cannot read that, but you know,

1175
01:00:32,600 --> 01:00:34,720
Speaker 5: too much and not the mood by Derkat Chew Bows

1176
01:00:34,800 --> 01:00:39,800
Speaker 5: like these folks. Uh, these books I love. And I'm

1177
01:00:39,840 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 5: looking at my desk right now because I have that

1178
01:00:41,760 --> 01:00:45,720
Speaker 5: Daphne Brooks's liner Notes for the Revolution and it's this

1179
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:48,000
Speaker 5: beautiful but it's very long, but it's this beautiful book

1180
01:00:48,040 --> 01:00:51,640
Speaker 5: of kind of reclaiming and reformatting the way that music

1181
01:00:51,680 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 5: criticism is understood and putting it through the lens primarily

1182
01:00:54,440 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 5: of black women, right, And like I grew up reading

1183
01:00:57,720 --> 01:01:01,280
Speaker 5: a lot of music criticism, very rarely from black women,

1184
01:01:01,600 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 5: unless I had, you know, occasionally, like Danielle Smith had

1185
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 5: being the source of dream Hampton and like these folks,

1186
01:01:08,080 --> 01:01:10,640
Speaker 5: but primarily for men. And when I men, when I

1187
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:12,960
Speaker 5: talk about hip hop criticism or R and B criticism

1188
01:01:13,080 --> 01:01:15,920
Speaker 5: or journalism, but when I like went outside of that realm,

1189
01:01:16,440 --> 01:01:18,360
Speaker 5: Like in the era I was growing up, so few

1190
01:01:18,400 --> 01:01:22,880
Speaker 5: black folks, black people in general were writing about classic

1191
01:01:23,080 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 5: rock or punk or anything. And this book is so

1192
01:01:26,240 --> 01:01:29,439
Speaker 5: great at saying no, this was. This kind of thinking

1193
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 5: was always happening, you just weren't seeing it. And I

1194
01:01:32,480 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 5: love those I love reading texts that give me those reminders.

1195
01:01:37,800 --> 01:01:39,480
Speaker 5: Earlier today, I got I did an interview when I

1196
01:01:39,560 --> 01:01:41,000
Speaker 5: was asked a question when someone was like, well, what

1197
01:01:41,120 --> 01:01:44,240
Speaker 5: makes your work unique? And I'd be like, shit, shit,

1198
01:01:44,280 --> 01:01:49,320
Speaker 5: that makes some work unique. Everything I'm doing is trying

1199
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 5: to copy and reformat a lineage of writers who were

1200
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:56,840
Speaker 5: actually unique, who came before me, who have done this already,

1201
01:01:57,640 --> 01:02:00,960
Speaker 5: And I'm just trying to say, Okay, scraps are left

1202
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:03,440
Speaker 5: at the table, what scraps of brilliance are left that

1203
01:02:03,480 --> 01:02:06,040
Speaker 5: I can kind of tweak on my own. But that's

1204
01:02:06,080 --> 01:02:07,479
Speaker 5: a long answer to a short question.

1205
01:02:08,120 --> 01:02:11,240
Speaker 1: We've got. Long answers to short questions are always the

1206
01:02:11,280 --> 01:02:14,040
Speaker 1: best answers. We've got two more questions I think were

1207
01:02:14,080 --> 01:02:17,760
Speaker 1: more from another high school English teacher, Stefan Jones, who says,

1208
01:02:18,560 --> 01:02:22,439
Speaker 1: how when you talk about the essays in They Can't

1209
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:25,360
Speaker 1: Kill Us with high school students, have you and first

1210
01:02:25,360 --> 01:02:26,560
Speaker 1: of all, have you had the chance to do that?

1211
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:29,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I know you're someone. Yeah, So how have

1212
01:02:29,320 --> 01:02:31,919
Speaker 1: those conversations? That's I guess maybe even a better question.

1213
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:35,320
Speaker 1: How have those conversations gone, How have young people reacted

1214
01:02:35,360 --> 01:02:37,160
Speaker 1: to it? And what have those conversations been like for you?

1215
01:02:38,120 --> 01:02:40,280
Speaker 5: It's been the most generous engagement I've had with the book,

1216
01:02:40,320 --> 01:02:43,240
Speaker 5: because these folks are oftentimes smarter than me, or at

1217
01:02:43,320 --> 01:02:46,840
Speaker 5: least more eager and more optimistic than I am, or

1218
01:02:46,920 --> 01:02:49,960
Speaker 5: at least more realistic. In some ways, it's been more interesting.

1219
01:02:50,040 --> 01:02:50,200
Speaker 1: You know.

1220
01:02:50,240 --> 01:02:51,840
Speaker 5: The wild thing about They Can't Kill Us that I'm

1221
01:02:51,920 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 5: very grateful for is the book has had a long life.

1222
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:56,960
Speaker 5: You know, the book is at this point coming up

1223
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:02,680
Speaker 5: on four years old or is it five? For and

1224
01:03:02,800 --> 01:03:05,440
Speaker 5: I don't feel the same way. I mean, like the

1225
01:03:05,560 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 5: work we create, much like I talk about write me down,

1226
01:03:07,960 --> 01:03:12,560
Speaker 5: the work we create lives unchanged and we change. So

1227
01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:14,160
Speaker 5: I don't feel the same way as I did when

1228
01:03:14,160 --> 01:03:16,440
Speaker 5: I wrote some of that stuff, you know, the chance

1229
01:03:16,520 --> 01:03:18,360
Speaker 5: of Rapper thing, I would have written way differently today,

1230
01:03:18,400 --> 01:03:20,400
Speaker 5: The Obama Rappers White House thing would have not even

1231
01:03:20,440 --> 01:03:22,920
Speaker 5: made the book, you know, like not because I think

1232
01:03:22,960 --> 01:03:25,320
Speaker 5: that work is bad, but I just, you know, I

1233
01:03:25,400 --> 01:03:27,160
Speaker 5: don't feel the same way I did as I wrote that,

1234
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:31,600
Speaker 5: And so the the talks with high schoolers feel the

1235
01:03:31,720 --> 01:03:36,880
Speaker 5: most gentle and critique heavy, because it's like I don't

1236
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:38,560
Speaker 5: see the world they are, you know, They're so quick

1237
01:03:38,600 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 5: to be like, well, I don't see the world this way,

1238
01:03:40,560 --> 01:03:42,640
Speaker 5: and I'd be like, well I don't either anymore. Tell

1239
01:03:42,680 --> 01:03:44,640
Speaker 5: me how you see it, you know, like I'm interested

1240
01:03:44,680 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 5: in how you see it. I need to know, like

1241
01:03:47,120 --> 01:03:50,320
Speaker 5: I need to know what you see. You are with

1242
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:53,760
Speaker 5: any luck, for we're talking about a natural arc of living,

1243
01:03:54,400 --> 01:03:57,920
Speaker 5: unsevered by tragedy. With any luck, you have a future

1244
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:02,280
Speaker 5: that will outpace my future. And so therefore I'm interested.

1245
01:04:02,400 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 5: I need to know what makes you look at the

1246
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:07,440
Speaker 5: world the way you do, and how can I get

1247
01:04:07,440 --> 01:04:11,560
Speaker 5: a little bit of that, maybe so that I am thinking,

1248
01:04:13,080 --> 01:04:18,560
Speaker 5: so that I don't become so nihilistic, perhaps and think

1249
01:04:18,720 --> 01:04:23,280
Speaker 5: that I am building a life and living a life

1250
01:04:24,200 --> 01:04:27,720
Speaker 5: that will only carry me until I'm done with it

1251
01:04:27,960 --> 01:04:30,920
Speaker 5: and not lay a groundwork for a future that I

1252
01:04:31,080 --> 01:04:34,800
Speaker 5: won't be around for. And so I've loved talking to

1253
01:04:34,880 --> 01:04:41,080
Speaker 5: high school students the most because they have the most

1254
01:04:41,160 --> 01:04:44,440
Speaker 5: interesting things to say about not only the work as

1255
01:04:44,520 --> 01:04:46,840
Speaker 5: I wrote it, but the work as it projects into

1256
01:04:47,600 --> 01:04:49,520
Speaker 5: the future, which it seems like this book has had

1257
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:51,360
Speaker 5: a long and unexpected future.

1258
01:04:53,200 --> 01:04:59,920
Speaker 1: Last question from Alato mia O. And I know writers

1259
01:05:00,040 --> 01:05:03,480
Speaker 1: get this question a lot, but there's also a lot

1260
01:05:03,520 --> 01:05:05,480
Speaker 1: of young writers who need to ask the questions. So

1261
01:05:05,600 --> 01:05:08,600
Speaker 1: what is your advice for young writers? You said when

1262
01:05:08,600 --> 01:05:10,280
Speaker 1: you were in high school, you didn't necessarily know you're

1263
01:05:10,280 --> 01:05:12,520
Speaker 1: a writer, but at the moment you realize you were.

1264
01:05:12,840 --> 01:05:14,960
Speaker 1: You know, what is advice that you wish that that

1265
01:05:15,440 --> 01:05:16,240
Speaker 1: you had received?

1266
01:05:18,360 --> 01:05:19,920
Speaker 5: You know, I wish someone would told me that my

1267
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:25,160
Speaker 5: impulses aren't ridiculous. And I wish someone had told me

1268
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:30,480
Speaker 5: that mimicry is actually an effective tool towards the finding

1269
01:05:30,520 --> 01:05:35,720
Speaker 5: of one's voice. And one thing that I will always

1270
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:38,919
Speaker 5: say is keep a notebook of writers that you love,

1271
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:41,680
Speaker 5: that the writers that you loved and who have like

1272
01:05:41,840 --> 01:05:44,520
Speaker 5: unlocked something for you, so that if you ever have

1273
01:05:44,600 --> 01:05:48,400
Speaker 5: the opportunity, you can really express that to them. I'm

1274
01:05:48,480 --> 01:05:50,720
Speaker 5: really big now. I feel like I always have been,

1275
01:05:50,760 --> 01:05:53,720
Speaker 5: but I'm bigger now than ever on the expression of

1276
01:05:53,800 --> 01:05:58,280
Speaker 5: real time gratitude because we've just lost so many folks,

1277
01:05:58,400 --> 01:06:03,680
Speaker 5: you know what I'm saying, And it isn't a given

1278
01:06:03,760 --> 01:06:06,920
Speaker 5: that we're able to tell people thank you for your

1279
01:06:07,000 --> 01:06:12,200
Speaker 5: work in real time. And gosh, I remember last year

1280
01:06:12,440 --> 01:06:14,720
Speaker 5: or whenever Fortune whenever, our last poetry book came out.

1281
01:06:14,760 --> 01:06:17,520
Speaker 5: Fortune for a Disaster came out the same day as

1282
01:06:17,600 --> 01:06:20,640
Speaker 5: the poet Mary Ruffles book called Dunce. And I love

1283
01:06:20,720 --> 01:06:22,920
Speaker 5: Mary Ruffle's book. I love her writing. I love it

1284
01:06:23,000 --> 01:06:26,960
Speaker 5: so much. And Dunce came out, and I remember, you know,

1285
01:06:27,080 --> 01:06:28,560
Speaker 5: my book had come out that same day, and I

1286
01:06:28,720 --> 01:06:30,640
Speaker 5: you know, it was supposed to be doing all this stuff,

1287
01:06:30,640 --> 01:06:32,760
Speaker 5: but I just read Dunce like five times that day,

1288
01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:38,240
Speaker 5: and I remember being like, there's no other option but

1289
01:06:38,320 --> 01:06:40,280
Speaker 5: for me to find a way to contact Mary Ruffle

1290
01:06:40,320 --> 01:06:41,680
Speaker 5: and tell her how much this book means to me

1291
01:06:41,760 --> 01:06:44,600
Speaker 5: today because I might be able to do that again.

1292
01:06:44,920 --> 01:06:48,600
Speaker 5: You know, it's the same when I read an essay

1293
01:06:48,680 --> 01:06:51,080
Speaker 5: online now or when I read a book by a writer.

1294
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:54,880
Speaker 5: This kind of stuff. I mean, I really want to

1295
01:06:54,920 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 5: tell people like this meant a lot to me, and

1296
01:06:58,880 --> 01:07:01,560
Speaker 5: I really the best advice I can give to young

1297
01:07:01,600 --> 01:07:06,840
Speaker 5: writers is maybe don't stray too far from gratitude. You're

1298
01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:08,800
Speaker 5: gonna need it like you're gonna be It's a requirement

1299
01:07:08,880 --> 01:07:13,080
Speaker 5: at this point. I think gratitude for your surroundings and

1300
01:07:13,120 --> 01:07:16,280
Speaker 5: gratitude for this is why when people say I'm too cynical,

1301
01:07:16,360 --> 01:07:18,320
Speaker 5: I think there may be misreading me, because I think

1302
01:07:18,840 --> 01:07:23,440
Speaker 5: I'm propelled by gratitude more than anything. If being cynical

1303
01:07:23,480 --> 01:07:27,160
Speaker 5: means that I am aware of the fact that I

1304
01:07:27,320 --> 01:07:29,720
Speaker 5: may not be alive tomorrow, because I'm acutely aware of

1305
01:07:29,760 --> 01:07:34,320
Speaker 5: the fact that I could perish at any moment, and

1306
01:07:34,440 --> 01:07:38,440
Speaker 5: therefore I have to have a really up against the

1307
01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:42,880
Speaker 5: glass engagement with the type of gratitude that propels me

1308
01:07:42,960 --> 01:07:45,680
Speaker 5: to something better. Then I'll take that brand of cynicism.

1309
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:51,880
Speaker 5: But young writers, I think need to understand that I'm

1310
01:07:51,920 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 5: not the writer I am today without a great many people.

1311
01:07:56,560 --> 01:07:59,120
Speaker 5: You know, like the first time I met Jackie Woodson,

1312
01:07:59,360 --> 01:08:03,480
Speaker 5: the great Jackie Wotson, I was like, listen, I know

1313
01:08:03,600 --> 01:08:05,240
Speaker 5: you've done a lot of ship and have heard this

1314
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:07,560
Speaker 5: a lot of times, but I'm not the writer I

1315
01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:09,760
Speaker 5: am without your work. And so you know, it was

1316
01:08:09,800 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 5: that like some awards thing. We're both up for an

1317
01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:14,720
Speaker 5: award or some ship, and I got to be like,

1318
01:08:14,840 --> 01:08:16,920
Speaker 5: the only reason I am here up for this little

1319
01:08:16,920 --> 01:08:20,479
Speaker 5: bullshit award or whatever bullshit award like you don't really

1320
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 5: care about, but like the only reason I'm here and

1321
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:27,040
Speaker 5: like up for this like decoration is because your books

1322
01:08:27,560 --> 01:08:30,600
Speaker 5: led me to it, you know what I mean. And

1323
01:08:30,680 --> 01:08:32,439
Speaker 5: so that's that's my advice for young writers is hold

1324
01:08:32,439 --> 01:08:35,880
Speaker 5: on to gratitude and keep it close because the writers

1325
01:08:35,920 --> 01:08:42,120
Speaker 5: you love are going to hopefully maybe intersect with intersect

1326
01:08:42,200 --> 01:08:43,559
Speaker 5: with your writing one day, and you got to share

1327
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:44,519
Speaker 5: it with the mother. They're still here.

1328
01:08:45,400 --> 01:08:51,759
Speaker 3: I swear to god, you feel different the way you feel,

1329
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:57,720
Speaker 3: bro right, the way you feel that's a blessing dog.

1330
01:08:59,160 --> 01:09:01,960
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for raising the IQ of the Jenkins

1331
01:09:02,000 --> 01:09:06,040
Speaker 1: and Jones podcasts. The dumbest ship we talk about, the

1332
01:09:06,120 --> 01:09:06,679
Speaker 1: dumbest ship.

1333
01:09:06,760 --> 01:09:09,800
Speaker 5: I here, bro I was I was hoping to talk

1334
01:09:09,800 --> 01:09:11,360
Speaker 5: about some dumb ship. I mean, I'm glad I talked

1335
01:09:11,360 --> 01:09:13,120
Speaker 5: about the books, but I'm always have to talking about.

1336
01:09:12,960 --> 01:09:15,519
Speaker 2: Dumb shit gummy gummy gummy bears, candy or fruit snack.

1337
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:23,439
Speaker 5: Well, the bears themselves are the candy, right, But I

1338
01:09:23,560 --> 01:09:25,800
Speaker 5: think because fruit snacks have to have some kind of

1339
01:09:25,920 --> 01:09:29,519
Speaker 5: like healthy ship, that is not it's a lie. It's

1340
01:09:29,520 --> 01:09:32,599
Speaker 5: all a lie. Like all fruit snacks are candy, don't

1341
01:09:32,600 --> 01:09:33,479
Speaker 5: have healthy ship.

1342
01:09:33,360 --> 01:09:35,240
Speaker 3: In there, and they're the best fruit snacks on the planet.

1343
01:09:36,920 --> 01:09:39,200
Speaker 5: Snacks, any kind of fruit juice type thing.

1344
01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:42,360
Speaker 1: I mean, I buy them kids, and I don't see.

1345
01:09:44,479 --> 01:09:45,120
Speaker 2: Summy bears.

1346
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:49,400
Speaker 5: What happened to the was it coming up? Wasn't there's

1347
01:09:49,400 --> 01:09:51,160
Speaker 5: some ship. So I was raised Muslim, so I can't

1348
01:09:51,200 --> 01:09:52,960
Speaker 5: funk with geltin or I didn't funk with gelatin all that,

1349
01:09:53,040 --> 01:09:55,719
Speaker 5: So I don't really know the fruit snack the lineage

1350
01:09:55,720 --> 01:09:57,720
Speaker 5: of fruit snacks that exists in the world. But I

1351
01:09:57,840 --> 01:09:59,880
Speaker 5: feel like when we're not when we were young, there

1352
01:09:59,880 --> 01:10:01,600
Speaker 5: were some ship that had like juice in it, like

1353
01:10:01,680 --> 01:10:03,160
Speaker 5: a fruit snack that had fruit.

1354
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:05,160
Speaker 1: That's it.

1355
01:10:07,680 --> 01:10:11,400
Speaker 2: Je juice that ship was It was juice, bro.

1356
01:10:11,560 --> 01:10:12,840
Speaker 1: It was orange.

1357
01:10:13,960 --> 01:10:15,439
Speaker 5: Yeah, I mean, don't get me wrong. I don't think

1358
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:18,680
Speaker 5: they were like squeezing orange, real orange juice into the

1359
01:10:18,720 --> 01:10:19,920
Speaker 5: center of that ship.

1360
01:10:20,040 --> 01:10:21,840
Speaker 2: Was like lead for eight year old bro. That it

1361
01:10:22,000 --> 01:10:22,639
Speaker 2: was not juice.

1362
01:10:24,760 --> 01:10:28,519
Speaker 1: Can I can I say so. My friend Achbar, who

1363
01:10:28,600 --> 01:10:31,120
Speaker 1: was Muslim in high school, almost turned me into a

1364
01:10:31,240 --> 01:10:33,720
Speaker 1: vegetarian when he explained to me why he could not

1365
01:10:33,840 --> 01:10:36,600
Speaker 1: eat gelatine because I didn't know what it was. And

1366
01:10:36,680 --> 01:10:38,559
Speaker 1: he was like, why can't eat pork? And I said, well,

1367
01:10:38,680 --> 01:10:41,240
Speaker 1: it's fucking starburst. What do you mean you can't eat pork?

1368
01:10:41,320 --> 01:10:42,479
Speaker 1: He was like, you know what gelatin is?

1369
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:45,040
Speaker 5: And I was like the last conversation and I was like,

1370
01:10:45,520 --> 01:10:48,920
Speaker 5: you know, we look at it. I was like, oh yeah, man.

1371
01:10:50,000 --> 01:10:51,519
Speaker 5: I had the people be like, yo, why can't you

1372
01:10:51,600 --> 01:10:54,000
Speaker 5: eat skittles? And I'd be like, listen, are you ready

1373
01:10:54,040 --> 01:10:56,960
Speaker 5: for are you ready for a real versation? Like that's

1374
01:10:57,160 --> 01:10:59,840
Speaker 5: that's some strawberry flavored pig feet. You eat it right there, bro,

1375
01:11:00,120 --> 01:11:06,519
Speaker 5: Like you know that's just no yeah, big feet. And

1376
01:11:06,640 --> 01:11:10,479
Speaker 5: trust me, I had. I had skittles once and I've

1377
01:11:10,520 --> 01:11:11,880
Speaker 5: been craving ever since, you know what I mean.

1378
01:11:12,000 --> 01:11:16,360
Speaker 2: So skinners are treasure. I'll be the first to tell

1379
01:11:16,360 --> 01:11:18,519
Speaker 2: you someone who regularly partakes in them. But that god

1380
01:11:18,600 --> 01:11:21,240
Speaker 2: damn blue tropical bag. Oh my, that purple bag. To me,

1381
01:11:21,360 --> 01:11:24,439
Speaker 2: it's a purple bag for me. That yeah, that shit

1382
01:11:24,560 --> 01:11:25,160
Speaker 2: go dummy.

1383
01:11:25,240 --> 01:11:28,599
Speaker 3: Though, I got a ques. You said you're.

1384
01:11:28,479 --> 01:11:30,479
Speaker 1: Interested, go ahead? Is it stupid?

1385
01:11:30,800 --> 01:11:30,960
Speaker 2: Yeah?

1386
01:11:31,000 --> 01:11:32,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, he was addressful sneakers.

1387
01:11:32,680 --> 01:11:34,600
Speaker 4: I'm wondering, like, you know what I'm saying, Like, what

1388
01:11:34,800 --> 01:11:36,960
Speaker 4: pair of sneakers is your grail sneakers? Some people like

1389
01:11:37,360 --> 01:11:40,519
Speaker 4: listen some really expensive ass pair that they bought. I

1390
01:11:40,560 --> 01:11:42,640
Speaker 4: think for me, it's usually the ones, like it's a

1391
01:11:42,680 --> 01:11:44,320
Speaker 4: pair that I just couldn't get in our love as

1392
01:11:44,320 --> 01:11:45,160
Speaker 4: a kid, and I got him.

1393
01:11:45,400 --> 01:11:47,200
Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying as an adult.

1394
01:11:48,240 --> 01:11:49,720
Speaker 5: So I can do the I mean I won't. I

1395
01:11:49,760 --> 01:11:52,680
Speaker 5: can do the like expensive grail. But like lately, I

1396
01:11:52,840 --> 01:11:56,640
Speaker 5: recently got a pair of original like the bread the

1397
01:11:56,720 --> 01:12:00,559
Speaker 5: black and red Jordan ones from nineteen eighty five, uh

1398
01:12:00,920 --> 01:12:04,839
Speaker 5: that were unworn, And that was wild to me because

1399
01:12:05,600 --> 01:12:07,360
Speaker 5: so I have a couple of pairs in my collection

1400
01:12:07,479 --> 01:12:09,040
Speaker 5: that are like as old as I am, or older

1401
01:12:09,080 --> 01:12:12,400
Speaker 5: than me. I recently got a pair of Nike tailwinds

1402
01:12:12,439 --> 01:12:16,640
Speaker 5: from nineteen eighty that were unworn, never been laced. They

1403
01:12:16,680 --> 01:12:19,120
Speaker 5: came with like the receipt they were. They came with

1404
01:12:19,200 --> 01:12:21,320
Speaker 5: the receipt, the original receipt from nineteen.

1405
01:12:21,120 --> 01:12:25,280
Speaker 4: Eighty Sleeps tailwinds had able run in the nineties, you know,

1406
01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:28,160
Speaker 4: what I'm saying, Like what just Airmagic sleep were crazy?

1407
01:12:28,240 --> 01:12:31,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, so you know they But yeah, I found a

1408
01:12:31,439 --> 01:12:34,280
Speaker 5: pair of eighty five Jordan black and red Jordan ones

1409
01:12:34,320 --> 01:12:37,800
Speaker 5: that I probably have to get the souls refurbished before

1410
01:12:37,800 --> 01:12:40,599
Speaker 5: I wear them out, because I think they haven't been worn.

1411
01:12:40,640 --> 01:12:42,599
Speaker 5: They haven't been worn since you know, nineteen eighty five,

1412
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:45,040
Speaker 5: and so I imagine like once I touched road and

1413
01:12:45,040 --> 01:12:49,280
Speaker 5: the motherfuckers they falling apart. So I gotta I gotta

1414
01:12:49,360 --> 01:12:51,599
Speaker 5: like take those in and get them, get the souls refurbished.

1415
01:12:51,640 --> 01:12:53,200
Speaker 5: But it's that kind of shit. I recently got a

1416
01:12:53,200 --> 01:12:56,080
Speaker 5: pair of two thousand, the original space Ans from two thousand,

1417
01:12:58,600 --> 01:13:00,519
Speaker 5: and that's kind of what I'm on. You know, I

1418
01:13:00,600 --> 01:13:04,200
Speaker 5: have a lot of the stuff that you know, the

1419
01:13:04,280 --> 01:13:06,960
Speaker 5: exclusive type shit or whatever, but what I'm on now

1420
01:13:07,080 --> 01:13:09,920
Speaker 5: is kind of chasing after the stuff from the two

1421
01:13:10,000 --> 01:13:11,880
Speaker 5: thousands that I couldn't get a high school or going

1422
01:13:11,920 --> 01:13:13,960
Speaker 5: way back to the eighties and getting like original shit.

1423
01:13:15,880 --> 01:13:18,680
Speaker 5: But a pair that I loved that that dropped when

1424
01:13:18,680 --> 01:13:20,760
Speaker 5: I was in high school that I feel like was

1425
01:13:20,840 --> 01:13:22,400
Speaker 5: kind of hot then and when away was a white

1426
01:13:22,400 --> 01:13:24,360
Speaker 5: and chrome Jordan four and like pure of my own

1427
01:13:24,360 --> 01:13:29,160
Speaker 5: ones and I feel like those no one gave a

1428
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:32,240
Speaker 5: fuck about those. I got a pair of those original

1429
01:13:32,280 --> 01:13:34,960
Speaker 5: from two thousand and one for like two hundred and

1430
01:13:35,000 --> 01:13:38,960
Speaker 5: fifty dollars, which is not usually the case issues from

1431
01:13:39,000 --> 01:13:41,599
Speaker 5: that era that are in that condition, and I was like, damn,

1432
01:13:41,640 --> 01:13:43,840
Speaker 5: people really don't care about this pair. But I love

1433
01:13:43,920 --> 01:13:44,320
Speaker 5: that pair.

1434
01:13:44,720 --> 01:13:44,840
Speaker 1: Love.

1435
01:13:44,920 --> 01:13:47,080
Speaker 5: I thought that pair was so cool. It's not as

1436
01:13:47,200 --> 01:13:49,800
Speaker 5: esthetically pleasing as I remember. I will say that when

1437
01:13:49,840 --> 01:13:51,280
Speaker 5: I got in the mail I opened the box, I

1438
01:13:51,400 --> 01:13:52,600
Speaker 5: was so excited. I was like, yeah, I got this

1439
01:13:52,680 --> 01:13:54,400
Speaker 5: pair I've been chasing. I opened the box and I

1440
01:13:54,520 --> 01:13:59,240
Speaker 5: was like, huh. It's kind of like when you like,

1441
01:13:59,400 --> 01:14:01,800
Speaker 5: you know, when you like go to a new barber

1442
01:14:02,600 --> 01:14:04,360
Speaker 5: and you think ship's going well, you know what I mean,

1443
01:14:04,400 --> 01:14:06,679
Speaker 5: and you're like, this motherfucker is like cut and cutting,

1444
01:14:06,920 --> 01:14:08,360
Speaker 5: you know, and then he hands you the mirror and

1445
01:14:08,400 --> 01:14:14,600
Speaker 5: you're like it's like it's not bad. It's not like

1446
01:14:14,960 --> 01:14:19,160
Speaker 5: it's not like unsightly bad, but yeah, you know, it's like,

1447
01:14:19,240 --> 01:14:27,120
Speaker 5: I think maybe I'm gonna go to another well you had,

1448
01:14:27,439 --> 01:14:29,360
Speaker 5: you had a stupid question, you had another stupid Yeah, we.

1449
01:14:29,560 --> 01:14:32,120
Speaker 1: We have we actually have a series of stupid arguments

1450
01:14:32,160 --> 01:14:34,160
Speaker 1: that we've had on the podcast. I don't think the

1451
01:14:34,240 --> 01:14:36,160
Speaker 1: plan was not to ask you to weigh in on these,

1452
01:14:36,280 --> 01:14:40,160
Speaker 1: But what is more athletic a rat or a squirrel?

1453
01:14:42,439 --> 01:14:45,080
Speaker 5: Well, reds can't climb trees. Can I climb trees? Rask

1454
01:14:45,240 --> 01:14:47,040
Speaker 5: clow ship climb.

1455
01:14:48,320 --> 01:14:50,640
Speaker 1: That's why they're They wouldn't and they wouldn't survive in

1456
01:14:50,680 --> 01:14:51,880
Speaker 1: New York if they couldn't climb.

1457
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:55,000
Speaker 5: We're talking a regular squirrel or flying talking like.

1458
01:14:55,920 --> 01:14:57,960
Speaker 4: If you had to, if you had to put pick

1459
01:14:58,040 --> 01:15:00,840
Speaker 4: somebody on your team, on your squad, who would you pick?

1460
01:15:00,880 --> 01:15:01,679
Speaker 3: A rat or a squirrel?

1461
01:15:04,280 --> 01:15:07,040
Speaker 5: I feel like squirrels can change direction better, the shiftiness

1462
01:15:07,520 --> 01:15:09,479
Speaker 5: I think. I think I think that rats probably have

1463
01:15:09,600 --> 01:15:13,439
Speaker 5: better like straight line speed, but I think a squirrel

1464
01:15:13,560 --> 01:15:15,160
Speaker 5: can like has lateral clickness.

1465
01:15:15,200 --> 01:15:17,559
Speaker 4: I can't believe we subjected this man of this, but anyway,

1466
01:15:18,080 --> 01:15:23,200
Speaker 4: I'm like, squirrels are scary. I've seen a squirrel die

1467
01:15:23,320 --> 01:15:25,840
Speaker 4: in the middle of the street because it didn't know

1468
01:15:26,880 --> 01:15:28,920
Speaker 4: me and my buddy were driving down the street. It

1469
01:15:29,040 --> 01:15:31,240
Speaker 4: didn't know which way to go, and it just passed out.

1470
01:15:31,320 --> 01:15:33,679
Speaker 4: I imagine it was a heart attack, maybe anxiety attack.

1471
01:15:33,960 --> 01:15:35,679
Speaker 4: That doesn't work well when you're trying.

1472
01:15:35,479 --> 01:15:40,800
Speaker 3: To you know, girls have heart attacks, like right, right, right, So.

1473
01:15:41,160 --> 01:15:43,360
Speaker 5: Yeah, but the change the direction is so it's like

1474
01:15:43,760 --> 01:15:46,400
Speaker 5: I've seen a squirrel do some like Barry Sanders type.

1475
01:15:47,000 --> 01:15:50,160
Speaker 5: You know, it's I would depending on the sport. If

1476
01:15:50,160 --> 01:15:53,200
Speaker 5: we're talking about football, I'm taking a squirrel as my

1477
01:15:53,320 --> 01:15:55,560
Speaker 5: running back because of the change of direction. But I

1478
01:15:55,600 --> 01:15:57,360
Speaker 5: do imagine the rat has better straight lines.

1479
01:15:57,240 --> 01:15:57,680
Speaker 3: And get hit.

1480
01:15:57,760 --> 01:15:59,240
Speaker 4: But you know what I'm saying, imagine hit about right,

1481
01:15:59,320 --> 01:16:00,960
Speaker 4: lewis a squirrel, that motherfucker dead.

1482
01:16:01,280 --> 01:16:05,879
Speaker 3: We haven't a We might as well bury that motherfucker

1483
01:16:05,920 --> 01:16:08,080
Speaker 3: on the field. You feel me. That's that's how I feel.

1484
01:16:08,360 --> 01:16:10,080
Speaker 3: So what do you think is more important peanut butter

1485
01:16:10,160 --> 01:16:11,760
Speaker 3: and jelly sandwich? Peanut butter or jelly?

1486
01:16:13,200 --> 01:16:17,439
Speaker 5: Oh oh wait a minute wait, I had an obvious answer,

1487
01:16:17,560 --> 01:16:22,000
Speaker 5: but well here's my thing. It's it's almost required. My

1488
01:16:22,320 --> 01:16:24,840
Speaker 5: high level phil soft answer is that it's almost required

1489
01:16:24,880 --> 01:16:26,519
Speaker 5: to be jelly because there are more types of jelly

1490
01:16:26,560 --> 01:16:30,840
Speaker 5: than there are peanut butter. Like you can if you're

1491
01:16:30,880 --> 01:16:34,840
Speaker 5: including like everything on the jelly jam spectrum, the possibilities

1492
01:16:34,840 --> 01:16:38,160
Speaker 5: are kind of like, not endless, but more plentiful than

1493
01:16:38,200 --> 01:16:42,920
Speaker 5: they are with peanut butter, unless you're including alternative nut

1494
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:46,599
Speaker 5: butters and whatnot. But even then, no, but you said

1495
01:16:46,600 --> 01:16:48,320
Speaker 5: peanut butter. Okay, so let's stick to just peanut butter.

1496
01:16:48,560 --> 01:16:52,280
Speaker 5: You got crunchy, you got smooth jelly, you got grape

1497
01:16:52,320 --> 01:16:58,519
Speaker 5: strawberry preserves, jams, apricot shit. I think jelly can really

1498
01:16:59,520 --> 01:17:02,920
Speaker 5: turn the tied for for a sandwich. But I actually

1499
01:17:02,920 --> 01:17:10,720
Speaker 5: think the real answer is the bread. Okay, there's a

1500
01:17:10,800 --> 01:17:12,840
Speaker 5: place in Columbus I serves like a fried peanut butter

1501
01:17:12,880 --> 01:17:15,720
Speaker 5: and jelly sandwich that I haven't tried because I, you know,

1502
01:17:15,880 --> 01:17:21,479
Speaker 5: like I'm older, and I feel like, say, like there's

1503
01:17:21,479 --> 01:17:23,720
Speaker 5: certain stuff I can like certainly still eat, but like

1504
01:17:23,920 --> 01:17:25,360
Speaker 5: in the eating of it, it's like, all right, well,

1505
01:17:25,360 --> 01:17:27,240
Speaker 5: I gotta like plan around, you know. I don't want

1506
01:17:27,240 --> 01:17:28,920
Speaker 5: to make a plan around eating a fried peanut butter

1507
01:17:29,000 --> 01:17:31,280
Speaker 5: and jelly sandwich. I'm not ready to give in to

1508
01:17:31,439 --> 01:17:35,000
Speaker 5: that admission of age just yet. But nonetheless, I had

1509
01:17:35,040 --> 01:17:39,000
Speaker 5: a I had like a like a large cake the

1510
01:17:39,120 --> 01:17:41,280
Speaker 5: other day, and I was like, I'm out, I'm down

1511
01:17:41,320 --> 01:17:43,200
Speaker 5: for the count. I'm gonna be sleeping for like, I

1512
01:17:43,560 --> 01:17:46,559
Speaker 5: got a scheduled naps into the next three days and.

1513
01:17:46,640 --> 01:17:48,919
Speaker 3: It will take you three weeks to get those calories

1514
01:17:48,960 --> 01:17:49,200
Speaker 3: off you.

1515
01:17:51,439 --> 01:17:54,120
Speaker 5: I mean, like I just can't do it. So but

1516
01:17:54,240 --> 01:17:55,920
Speaker 5: peanut butter and jelly. I haven't had a peanut butter

1517
01:17:55,960 --> 01:17:57,439
Speaker 5: and jelly in a while, though, I sometimes think about

1518
01:17:57,439 --> 01:18:01,280
Speaker 5: it because, uh, you know, it's easy to make and

1519
01:18:01,360 --> 01:18:03,679
Speaker 5: it's it's a great, a great meal. But it's also

1520
01:18:03,760 --> 01:18:06,160
Speaker 5: wild to me that when I was a kid, we

1521
01:18:06,200 --> 01:18:08,240
Speaker 5: would go to school with just lunchboxes that were like

1522
01:18:08,360 --> 01:18:12,519
Speaker 5: mostly sugar, right, you know it's like, hey, butter and jelly, chocolate,

1523
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:14,439
Speaker 5: milk gushers whatever else.

1524
01:18:15,040 --> 01:18:18,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, Like I think we were the worst fed generation

1525
01:18:18,880 --> 01:18:22,000
Speaker 4: ever because, like you know, our parents were working more

1526
01:18:22,080 --> 01:18:23,320
Speaker 4: like you know what I'm saying, and all that and

1527
01:18:23,439 --> 01:18:24,000
Speaker 4: so convenience.

1528
01:18:24,040 --> 01:18:26,280
Speaker 1: Your parents were just eating animal fat for breakfast.

1529
01:18:26,320 --> 01:18:30,559
Speaker 3: Bro, what I'm saying Like our parents like they had

1530
01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:31,599
Speaker 3: actual food.

1531
01:18:31,840 --> 01:18:34,439
Speaker 4: We were canning goods. All that shit was popping when

1532
01:18:34,479 --> 01:18:36,120
Speaker 4: we were you know what I'm saying. Like, I mean,

1533
01:18:36,280 --> 01:18:38,120
Speaker 4: my mom was having real meals, like you know what

1534
01:18:38,160 --> 01:18:40,439
Speaker 4: I'm saying. Like for us, it was like convenience was

1535
01:18:40,520 --> 01:18:44,719
Speaker 4: more important. So they weren't eating box fucking tuna helper.

1536
01:18:45,000 --> 01:18:47,920
Speaker 4: My mom wasn't, but I Shawl was you feel me like,

1537
01:18:48,280 --> 01:18:51,720
Speaker 4: and you bring glory greens to the crib. I mean,

1538
01:18:51,960 --> 01:18:54,320
Speaker 4: you know, and before our generation, you might not.

1539
01:18:54,360 --> 01:18:55,960
Speaker 3: Be able to come back to the house for years,

1540
01:18:56,640 --> 01:19:00,800
Speaker 3: you know what I'm saying. For us, you feel me

1541
01:19:01,200 --> 01:19:03,479
Speaker 3: like they just throwing them on it was normal for us,

1542
01:19:03,560 --> 01:19:03,920
Speaker 3: man like.

1543
01:19:04,479 --> 01:19:06,639
Speaker 4: But anyway, so I feel like our generation was horrible,

1544
01:19:06,760 --> 01:19:09,800
Speaker 4: like all the sugar, all that shit coming home eating

1545
01:19:09,880 --> 01:19:10,400
Speaker 4: trash too.

1546
01:19:10,840 --> 01:19:14,600
Speaker 6: Luckily, and if I have a third grader and a

1547
01:19:14,680 --> 01:19:17,800
Speaker 6: kindergartener and I do the I do breakfast, and I

1548
01:19:17,880 --> 01:19:19,519
Speaker 6: make their lunch, and I drop them off at school

1549
01:19:19,560 --> 01:19:22,240
Speaker 6: in the morning, and it's I give them some apples

1550
01:19:22,280 --> 01:19:22,639
Speaker 6: and carras.

1551
01:19:22,800 --> 01:19:24,880
Speaker 1: But it takes twice as long as throwing the fucking

1552
01:19:24,960 --> 01:19:26,760
Speaker 1: Oreo dipper in the bag, you know what I mean?

1553
01:19:29,320 --> 01:19:30,320
Speaker 5: Yeah, man, it's like.

1554
01:19:30,360 --> 01:19:32,320
Speaker 1: We're trying to have some balance, but it's tough, bro,

1555
01:19:32,400 --> 01:19:34,240
Speaker 1: because the sugar shit, you just pull it out of

1556
01:19:34,280 --> 01:19:35,760
Speaker 1: the box and drop it in the lunch box.

1557
01:19:35,840 --> 01:19:38,400
Speaker 4: So you're done and now and now your kids adg

1558
01:19:38,479 --> 01:19:43,640
Speaker 4: it to sugar for the rest of their life, you

1559
01:19:43,720 --> 01:19:44,439
Speaker 4: know what I'm saying.

1560
01:19:45,160 --> 01:19:49,519
Speaker 3: Man. Anyway, Honey, thank you so much for joining us.

1561
01:19:49,960 --> 01:19:52,320
Speaker 1: You mentioned it a couple of times, but Little Devil

1562
01:19:52,360 --> 01:19:55,000
Speaker 1: in America is your most recent book. People should for

1563
01:19:55,080 --> 01:19:58,000
Speaker 1: sure check out. And you have coming out Saturday and

1564
01:19:58,120 --> 01:20:02,200
Speaker 1: audio documentary on the school that's coming out on Pineapple

1565
01:20:02,240 --> 01:20:04,240
Speaker 1: Street that I know the three of us are very

1566
01:20:04,280 --> 01:20:07,040
Speaker 1: excited about. And uh, thanks man. This is kind of

1567
01:20:07,080 --> 01:20:09,080
Speaker 1: new for us to do like a book club and

1568
01:20:09,160 --> 01:20:11,560
Speaker 1: actually have someone on. But I know a lot of

1569
01:20:11,600 --> 01:20:13,560
Speaker 1: our listeners were excited about it as a change of

1570
01:20:13,600 --> 01:20:15,840
Speaker 1: pace from off season fucking NBA talk.

1571
01:20:17,240 --> 01:20:20,640
Speaker 5: Yeah, listen, I love off season NBA talk personally, but

1572
01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:22,240
Speaker 5: it's been a dry I mean, it's been exciting for

1573
01:20:22,320 --> 01:20:25,400
Speaker 5: the Timberwolves, but it's all you know, Uh, it's all

1574
01:20:25,439 --> 01:20:28,120
Speaker 5: speculation for something that will never come true for us.

1575
01:20:28,200 --> 01:20:30,960
Speaker 5: So this is much more exciting than me refreshing Ben

1576
01:20:31,000 --> 01:20:32,280
Speaker 5: Simmons News every two hours.

1577
01:20:32,360 --> 01:20:34,599
Speaker 4: You're a much more exciting than us talking about fucking

1578
01:20:34,680 --> 01:20:37,000
Speaker 4: Rondo joining the fucking Lakers and ship too.

1579
01:20:37,360 --> 01:20:40,680
Speaker 3: Thank god you came on, Bro. I was captivating. I've

1580
01:20:40,720 --> 01:20:44,400
Speaker 3: been fucking whining. I hate this basketball talk. Thank god for.

1581
01:20:48,760 --> 01:20:51,280
Speaker 5: I appreciate y'all truly to have the book be a

1582
01:20:51,320 --> 01:20:54,000
Speaker 5: book club pick and to have it resonate with y'alls

1583
01:20:54,000 --> 01:20:55,920
Speaker 5: community means a whole lot to me, and it's a

1584
01:20:55,960 --> 01:20:57,240
Speaker 5: real pleasure to get to chop it up with you

1585
01:20:57,360 --> 01:20:57,760
Speaker 5: at your show.

1586
01:20:57,840 --> 01:20:59,160
Speaker 2: Likewise, we appreciate you, bro.

1587
01:21:01,520 --> 01:21:04,880
Speaker 1: Our thanks to HENI for joining us. Uh what a

1588
01:21:05,000 --> 01:21:09,920
Speaker 1: great interview. I can we just when basketball season comes back,

1589
01:21:09,960 --> 01:21:12,800
Speaker 1: we might need to spin off the book Club podcast.

1590
01:21:12,960 --> 01:21:14,439
Speaker 1: I'm having a fucking blast.

1591
01:21:14,760 --> 01:21:16,680
Speaker 4: I think I think we need to continue this, bro

1592
01:21:16,920 --> 01:21:19,120
Speaker 4: Like I mean, like I said, I can't believe we

1593
01:21:19,240 --> 01:21:22,280
Speaker 4: got I was excited about his brain coming on our pond,

1594
01:21:22,400 --> 01:21:25,439
Speaker 4: Like we really are getting this motherfucker brain to talk

1595
01:21:25,520 --> 01:21:27,080
Speaker 4: to us, like you know what I mean, Like I

1596
01:21:27,160 --> 01:21:31,280
Speaker 4: thought that was beautiful. But yeah, he's so brilliant and

1597
01:21:31,400 --> 01:21:34,760
Speaker 4: the most in depth answers for you know, like seemingly

1598
01:21:34,840 --> 01:21:35,559
Speaker 4: simple questions.

1599
01:21:35,600 --> 01:21:38,479
Speaker 3: He sees so deep and he feels so different. It was,

1600
01:21:38,720 --> 01:21:40,080
Speaker 3: it was, It was truly a pleasure.

1601
01:21:40,520 --> 01:21:43,599
Speaker 4: And I'm being silly, but that's how I fucking feel,

1602
01:21:43,720 --> 01:21:44,720
Speaker 4: my nigga, you feel me.

1603
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:50,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, definitely definitely a writer's mind. You know, deep emotions

1604
01:21:50,320 --> 01:21:52,880
Speaker 2: and can and express them fluidly. Like I was just

1605
01:21:53,160 --> 01:21:54,840
Speaker 2: I was just amazed by the answers he was given.

1606
01:21:56,960 --> 01:21:59,920
Speaker 1: I felt bad when he was like he was like

1607
01:22:00,040 --> 01:22:01,840
Speaker 1: he wanted to come hang out, you know what I mean,

1608
01:22:02,040 --> 01:22:03,200
Speaker 1: ask him all these real questions.

1609
01:22:03,240 --> 01:22:07,240
Speaker 4: He was like, thought, I'm gonna we'll get him off

1610
01:22:07,280 --> 01:22:09,880
Speaker 4: for some basketball talking sometimes, you know, a whole bunch

1611
01:22:09,880 --> 01:22:11,840
Speaker 4: about that ship. But yeah, I just want to know,

1612
01:22:12,120 --> 01:22:14,360
Speaker 4: like what went behind this book. I just want to

1613
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:16,800
Speaker 4: I'm glad that he nerded out with us, you know

1614
01:22:16,840 --> 01:22:17,360
Speaker 4: what I'm saying.

1615
01:22:17,640 --> 01:22:18,040
Speaker 5: For sure?

1616
01:22:19,439 --> 01:22:22,120
Speaker 1: For sure? Okay, So like I said, like I said earlier,

1617
01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:24,040
Speaker 1: make sure you get how the word has passed. Check

1618
01:22:24,080 --> 01:22:26,040
Speaker 1: out the first couple of chapters of that through the

1619
01:22:26,120 --> 01:22:29,120
Speaker 1: end of the Angle of Prison chapter and we'll be

1620
01:22:29,200 --> 01:22:32,920
Speaker 1: talking about that on next Thursday's podcast. We're hoping to

1621
01:22:33,040 --> 01:22:36,519
Speaker 1: get Clint Smith on as well when we're done reading

1622
01:22:36,560 --> 01:22:38,519
Speaker 1: that book. So you know, if you're reading and you

1623
01:22:38,640 --> 01:22:41,360
Speaker 1: think your questions, I thought we got some great questions

1624
01:22:41,400 --> 01:22:43,559
Speaker 1: for haneyf that was that was That was not something

1625
01:22:43,600 --> 01:22:47,040
Speaker 1: any of us anticipated we'd be doing with this fucking podcast.

1626
01:22:47,120 --> 01:22:51,760
Speaker 1: But that was cool. So yes, I think that's it right.

1627
01:22:52,040 --> 01:22:55,120
Speaker 1: Anything else A man peace?

1628
01:22:55,680 --> 01:23:01,920
Speaker 3: Aye, bye bye bye. Op