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Speaker 1: I'm Laurie Gottlieb. I'm the author of Maybe You Should

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Speaker 1: Talk to Someone, and I write the Dear Therapist advice

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Speaker 1: column for the Atlantic.

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Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid,

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Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted.

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Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists.

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Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where

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Speaker 1: we help people confront their biggest problems and then give

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Speaker 1: them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made

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Speaker 1: in their lives.

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Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session.

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Speaker 1: This week, a woman who has elaborate revenge fantasies about

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Speaker 1: the people in her life wants to understand why she

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Speaker 1: does this and how she can stop.

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Speaker 3: I have no training and how to have a positive conversation.

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Speaker 3: I think it feel a shameful as a grown woman

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Speaker 3: that I can't defend myself, and so I take all

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Speaker 3: about hurt and I channel it towards these letters.

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Speaker 2: First, a quick note deo Therapists is for informational purposes only,

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Speaker 2: does not constantitute medical or psychological advice, and is not

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Speaker 2: a substitute for professional health care advice, diagnosis, or treatment.

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Speaker 2: Always seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional,

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Speaker 2: or other qualified health provider with any questions you may

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Speaker 2: have regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter,

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Speaker 2: you are agreeing to let iHeart Media use it in

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Speaker 2: part or in full, and we may edit it for

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Speaker 2: length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names

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Speaker 2: have been changed for the privacy of our guests.

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Speaker 1: So Hey Guy, Hi Laurie, what do we have going

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Speaker 1: on in our mailbox this week?

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Speaker 2: Today we have a rather interesting letter which I will

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Speaker 2: just read and you will see why. Deotherapists, I have

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Speaker 2: an issue in which I feel a great compulsion to

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Speaker 2: write letters to people that are filled with scathing criticisms

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Speaker 2: or that bring up long buried events. I am embarrassed

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Speaker 2: to admit that I write these mostly to good friends,

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Speaker 2: and I even think about sending such letters to the

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Speaker 2: spouses of good friends that contain in that would be

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Speaker 2: highly damaging to the relationships at hand. I have never

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Speaker 2: sent these letters because I know they could potentially cause

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Speaker 2: great emotional and in some cases financial damage to my friends.

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Speaker 2: But while I don't send these letters, I have to wonder,

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Speaker 2: why do I want to hurt other people? Some of

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Speaker 2: these people are friends of more than three decades? Am

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Speaker 2: I jealous of them? Do I feel abandoned when they

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Speaker 2: move and have their own families even though I am

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Speaker 2: married and have my own family too. Why do I

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Speaker 2: weaponize certain things that were told to me in confidence?

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Speaker 2: It's upsetting to take delight in crafting these letters when

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Speaker 2: most friends have shown genuine support and love for me.

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Speaker 2: Thanks for any help, Catherine.

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Speaker 1: You know, this is really interesting because so many times

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Speaker 1: people come into our offices and they have these almost

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Speaker 1: confessions of things that they're very ashamed of. They feel

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Speaker 1: like they're very unique to them, and in this case

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Speaker 1: it is. But I think that what we discover when

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Speaker 1: we start exploring it with them is that whatever's going

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Speaker 1: on underneath it is probably pretty universal, that's right.

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Speaker 2: And in this case, what's going on underneath is a

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Speaker 2: lot of emotion. Clearly, she feels a lot of these

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Speaker 2: feelings and then writes letters to express these feelings in

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Speaker 2: some way. What's certainly not clear to me yet is

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Speaker 2: what are these feelings about? What's causing them to come up?

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Speaker 2: And it sounds like she's not entirely sure why she

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Speaker 2: does it either, and that's why she's writing.

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Speaker 1: To us, and I think that as she starts to

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Speaker 1: understand more about what this is, she will have more

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Speaker 1: compassion for herself and then also be able to hopefully

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Speaker 1: start to change the behavior. And so for anybody out

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Speaker 1: there who thinks that they have some kind of behavior

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Speaker 1: that they're embarrassed to share with anybody, this will probably

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Speaker 1: be a very helpful episode.

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Speaker 2: So let's go talk to her.

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Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll

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Speaker 1: be back after a short break.

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Speaker 2: I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is Deatherapists.

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Speaker 1: Hi, Catherine, Hello, thanks for coming on the show.

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Speaker 3: Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 2: It's our pleasure. We read your letter, and I'm curious

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Speaker 2: to hear how this habit of writing these skating letters

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Speaker 2: that you don't send, how that started, when it started?

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Speaker 2: If you can give us a little context of how

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Speaker 2: that got going and the development of it throughout the years.

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Speaker 3: I think it started probably about ten years ago. The

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Speaker 3: first time I began to compose these letters. In my mind,

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Speaker 3: it was to one particular friend, and our relationship had

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Speaker 3: started to go through some rockiness, largely in part because

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Speaker 3: she has a spouse who was treating me quite poorly.

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Speaker 3: The friendship sort of it lessened, but we've remained good friends,

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Speaker 3: I would say, but it sort of started as a

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Speaker 3: way of addressing wasn't said between us, and I would

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Speaker 3: find myself waking up in the morning, and perhaps as

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Speaker 3: I was unloading the dishwasher or taking a shower, I

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Speaker 3: would begin to write these letters in my mind, either

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Speaker 3: to this friend or to her spouse. I've known this

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Speaker 3: friend for a long time, probably about thirty years now,

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Speaker 3: and in the course of that relationship, she shared a

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Speaker 3: lot of personal details about herself and her relationship with

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Speaker 3: her spouse, and I would use that information to write

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Speaker 3: fairly scathing letters in my mind. In my mind, I've

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Speaker 3: never sent anything, and I do it to other people too.

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Speaker 3: It would be a criticism of the way that they

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Speaker 3: raised their children, the way that they spend money. It's

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Speaker 3: just it's not healthy. I do it mainly for a

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Speaker 3: couple friends, but also if there are people in town

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Speaker 3: that I see that their children are treating other kids

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Speaker 3: terribly on the playground, I'll think about writing letters to

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Speaker 3: these people. It's almost become now something that's a part

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Speaker 3: of my daily habit, and I want to understand why

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Speaker 3: I'm doing this and what I can do to stop

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Speaker 3: doing it, because I'm so aware of it not being productive.

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Speaker 2: When you described the first incident, you were upset because

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Speaker 2: the husband was treating you poorly, and it was one

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Speaker 2: of the ways to kind of express your beef. But

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Speaker 2: you're saying that now it can happen with people you

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Speaker 2: don't know, people you just even see that you don't

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Speaker 2: have any personal stake in it, but it can activate

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Speaker 2: you sufficiently to want to do that. Are you aware

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Speaker 2: in those moments of what you're feeling that's making you

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Speaker 2: think of writing the letter.

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Speaker 3: Yes, I'm aware of people who I believe are not

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Speaker 3: taking responsibility for their actions or responsibility for how their

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Speaker 3: children are acting towards others.

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Speaker 2: What's the feeling that you have in those moments? You

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Speaker 2: aware of what you're feeling in that moment.

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Speaker 3: I think it's angry at feeling mistreated or disrespected and

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Speaker 3: feeling like my friends are not sticking up for me

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Speaker 3: and saying to their spouse, hey, that's not right to

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Speaker 3: treat someone this way. I love this person and you're

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Speaker 3: being awful to them.

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Speaker 1: There seems to be a real thread of injustice throughout

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Speaker 1: these even when you see the kids that you don't

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Speaker 1: even know at the park who are being treated in

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Speaker 1: a way that feels unfair.

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Speaker 3: I do have a pretty strong sense of what is

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Speaker 3: right and what is wrong, but I'm also keenly aware

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Speaker 3: that not everyone has those same views. When I'm feeling

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Speaker 3: angry and then I want to write these letters, it's

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Speaker 3: a way of, I guess settling scores.

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Speaker 1: This sense of feeling misunderstood or feeling like you or

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Speaker 1: somebody else is being treated fairly. Was that something that

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Speaker 1: you felt growing up? Does it feel familiar at all?

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Speaker 3: It does. In my household, we really weren't allowed to

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Speaker 3: express ourselves and what was decided upon by my parents,

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Speaker 3: mostly my father. That was the rule, and there wasn't

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Speaker 3: a lot of leeway to plead your case, to think differently,

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Speaker 3: to express yourself differently. That just wasn't tolerated.

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Speaker 1: Do you have siblings.

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Speaker 3: I do. I have siblings, older and younger brother.

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Speaker 1: How did they react to that environment?

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Speaker 3: They took it as well. I mean, you know, to

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Speaker 3: be essentially iced out was just a really unpleasant feeling.

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Speaker 3: It could be a couple days of your parents not

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Speaker 3: talking to you. It could be feeling like you were

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Speaker 3: the odd man out in sort of an already not

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Speaker 3: terribly a motive family. It was. It was not fun.

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Speaker 2: That's what your parents would do. If they're upset with you,

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Speaker 2: they would shun you, like ice you out.

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Speaker 3: Yes, my father would not speak to us for several days,

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Speaker 3: or my mother would write us letters and either leave

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Speaker 3: them on our bed, or sometimes she would even mail

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Speaker 3: them to us, just we were in the same house.

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Speaker 3: She would mail them to us, and you know she

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Speaker 3: would express her anger by writing these letters.

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Speaker 1: So you have been the recipient of the letters that

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Speaker 1: you compose in your mind, Yes, I have. What were

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Speaker 1: the kinds of things that you would get iced out for.

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Speaker 3: Not bringing home perfect grades?

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Speaker 1: What would happen with the grades? Can you paint the

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Speaker 1: picture of that?

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Speaker 3: So if I did not bring home you know a's

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Speaker 3: or as it was just there was hell to bay.

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Speaker 3: This was in the eighties and the nineties, and you know,

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Speaker 3: if we brought home a report card with anything less

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Speaker 3: than a's, it was it was ranting and raving that

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Speaker 3: America is going to be surpassed by this country. America

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Speaker 3: is going to be surpassed by that country. And we're

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Speaker 3: not trying hard enough ever, any question about well do

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Speaker 3: you understand the material? Why are you getting b pluses

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Speaker 3: as if there's anything wrong with that.

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Speaker 1: So you talked about them sending you letters, but it

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Speaker 1: sounds like they also directly expressed you their anger.

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Speaker 3: Yes, my mother would send me the letters. My father

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Speaker 3: would directly express the anger.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious, then, what were the letters about that you

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Speaker 1: received from your mother.

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Speaker 3: I have one specific incidence where she gave me a

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Speaker 3: jewelry box for Christmas, and I didn't particularly love the

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Speaker 3: jewelry box and I put it underneath my dresser and

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Speaker 3: it stayed there for a couple months, and she must

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Speaker 3: have found it at some point and it was dusty.

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Speaker 3: It wasn't broken, it wasn't used, it was just dusty.

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Speaker 3: And so that afternoon I came home and there was

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Speaker 3: a letter on my pillow just saying, you know, why

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Speaker 3: did you treat it like this? This was a gift

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Speaker 3: I gave to you, and I don't think it's acceptable

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Speaker 3: that you would treat something like that.

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Speaker 1: It sounds like she sent you a lot of letters

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Speaker 1: over the course of your childhood. Did you ever respect

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Speaker 1: to them? Or she would send you a letter and

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Speaker 1: the two of you would never speak of it.

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Speaker 3: It was more of the latter. I would never speak

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Speaker 3: of it, partially because I felt cowed by it, because

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Speaker 3: it wasn't her directly addressing me, and partly I thought

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Speaker 3: it was just ridiculous.

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Speaker 2: You know what's interesting to me in what your dad

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Speaker 2: said is the disproportionality of you not getting an A

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Speaker 2: and on your shoulders because of your lack of a

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Speaker 2: is the entire future of the American country. It wasn't

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Speaker 2: your future might be disappointing, it's about the whole country

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Speaker 2: now is on your shoulders. In other words, it's such

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Speaker 2: a disproportionate response that it really kind of set the

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Speaker 2: stage for you that it's okay to respond to these

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Speaker 2: kinds of things in a hugely disproportionate way, and in

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Speaker 2: a way from your mum in which people can't answer.

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Speaker 2: So between the two of them, they're really teaching you

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Speaker 2: that when you feel slighted or upset or disappointed even

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Speaker 2: with someone, you get to respond in ways that are

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Speaker 2: not direct but very disproportionate, like burn the house down

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Speaker 2: kind of thing. And that's what you're describing that you

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Speaker 2: do in your letters.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and I hadn't actually thought about that disproportional reaction,

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Speaker 3: but it's right there, it's braided right in with the letters.

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Speaker 1: Can you tell us what happened with your friend's husband

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Speaker 1: that started you on this process of writing these letters

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Speaker 1: that in your fantasy world you would send, but you don't.

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Speaker 3: From the time I met her fiance soon to be husband,

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Speaker 3: he was always very cold to me and very distant. He,

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Speaker 3: I believe, felt threatened by our friendship. And at their wedding,

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Speaker 3: they had some issues and they had a fight and

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Speaker 3: it was very uncomfortable, and she had withdrawn to a

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Speaker 3: room and she didn't want to be with him, and

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Speaker 3: I tried to talk to him to go and see her.

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Speaker 3: It was their wedding night. It was a beautiful wedding,

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Speaker 3: And that was the most that I could do to

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Speaker 3: help her was to just say to him, look, your

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Speaker 3: wife is waiting to talk to you. She's upset. And

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Speaker 3: all he would say to me was, oh, well, you're

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Speaker 3: very proper. Isn't it always important to have good manners?

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Speaker 3: And since I've at that point really seen him, it's

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Speaker 3: either been he cuts me short or makes a comment,

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Speaker 3: and I want to preserve the friendship with her, so

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Speaker 3: I really don't react, she'll tell me some terrible behavior

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Speaker 3: he's shown to her. I try not to react because

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Speaker 3: I get the sense she just wants to talk about it,

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Speaker 3: not necessarily get advice from me. So I can't point

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Speaker 3: to you a specific run in that we had. I

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Speaker 3: feel like from the beginning he just felt threatened by

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Speaker 3: me and by our friendship.

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Speaker 2: You're saying that he would just be cold and distant.

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Speaker 2: You're also describing that your dad's way of dealing with

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Speaker 2: conflict was to shun to not speak to you for

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Speaker 2: several days. Now, that's extremely painful when you live with

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Speaker 2: someone when they're icing you out, when they're shunning you,

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Speaker 2: it's an extremely painful form of rejection. And you're describing

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Speaker 2: here with this husband of the friend that he also

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Speaker 2: was just a bit shunning and distant and cold. Because

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Speaker 2: there's also something about your mum's letter writing that's so impersonal,

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Speaker 2: and that she's not coming to talk to you. She's

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Speaker 2: writing and even mailing a letter as if it's far away.

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Speaker 2: There's something very distancing about that, and I'm wondering whether

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Speaker 2: that's something that you're aware of that you have a

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Speaker 2: specific history within reaction to it.

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Speaker 3: Could be I immediately. I notice it if I think

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Speaker 3: that someone isn't being polite to me, or if I

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Speaker 3: think someone's being disrespectful, I pick up on that, and

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Speaker 3: all of my senses in almost every other interaction following that,

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Speaker 3: are alert to it.

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Speaker 1: And your mother felt the same way. She was hyper

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Speaker 1: aware of perceived disrespect. And I say perceived because of

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Speaker 1: what you're describing, And so I wonder if it's hard

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Speaker 1: for you to sometimes know whether this really is disrespectful

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Speaker 1: or whether you feel like maybe I'm holding them to

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Speaker 1: a standard that's a little bit stringent like your mother did.

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Speaker 3: I think you're right that I think that there have

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Speaker 3: been some clear cut instances of disrespect. But also perhaps

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Speaker 3: I'm just I'm primed for it and I'm reading into

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Speaker 3: something differently. I think after about ten years of, you know,

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Speaker 3: sort of coolness on his part, I've got it pretty

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Speaker 3: accurately sized up. But yeah, it could be that I'm

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Speaker 3: just I'm looking for it, or I'm interpreting it in

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Speaker 3: the wrong way.

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Speaker 1: You said that you're married with a family. Does that

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Speaker 1: mean that you also have children?

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Speaker 3: Yes? I do.

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Speaker 1: How old are your children?

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Speaker 3: Twelve, ten, and seven.

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Speaker 1: And you've been married for.

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Speaker 3: About fifteen years now.

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Speaker 1: Does this come up in your relationships with your husband

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Speaker 1: or your children.

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Speaker 3: Well, yes, in the sense of I do get upset

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Speaker 3: when I have to ask my children to do something

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Speaker 3: and I'm asking them five and six times I've said

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Speaker 3: it to them before. I do not like feeling as

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Speaker 3: if I'm being ignored.

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Speaker 1: Because being ignored when you were growing up was extremely painful.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's kind of how I would characterize my whole childhood.

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Speaker 3: My brothers included, is that it was we were just

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Speaker 3: kind of bouncing around in a house and not really

301
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Speaker 3: given the space to express ourselves.

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Speaker 1: You're kind of smiling and laughing as you're saying this.

303
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Speaker 1: Do you notice that?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? I do, because I don't necessarily think it's funny.

305
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Speaker 3: In fact, I don't think it's funny at all. But

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Speaker 3: I feel like it's just so interesting to me how

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Speaker 3: these patterns play out again and how certain things repeat themselves.

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Speaker 3: I fervently hope that I'm giving my girls more space

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Speaker 3: to express themselves and what I was given.

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Speaker 1: So with your children, you've talked about having some of

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Speaker 1: these times when you feel ignored by them, and how

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Speaker 1: much that triggers you. What happens with your husband. Have

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Speaker 1: you ever felt ignored by him or what happens when

314
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Speaker 1: you feel disrespected or there's some kind of conflict between

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Speaker 1: the two of you.

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Speaker 3: No, my husband is incredibly open and a motive and

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Speaker 3: does such a wonderful job of touching in with me.

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Speaker 3: He's had a good deal of therapy and understands how

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Speaker 3: to communicate. I am amazed at how he can talk

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Speaker 3: so beautifully to our daughters. I wish I had that.

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Speaker 3: I feel almost like, Oh, I let him do a

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Speaker 3: lot of like the tough talk, I don't feel quite

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Speaker 3: as well equipped to do it, and he is just

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Speaker 3: he is a gem when it comes to conversations.

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Speaker 1: Sometimes the letter in your head is a way to

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Speaker 1: kind of process all of these feelings, and it feels

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Speaker 1: very solitary because that's what you had to do growing up.

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Speaker 1: You really didn't have people to process your feelings with.

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Speaker 1: Even when your mom wrote those letters, you didn't go

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Speaker 1: then and talk to her about it or say I

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Speaker 1: feel differently.

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Speaker 3: About this, yeah.

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Speaker 1: And so now you have someone in your life that

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Speaker 1: you can talk to that way. And I'm wondering when

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Speaker 1: something comes up, an incident happens where you feel slighted

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Speaker 1: by your friend's husband, or you see the kids being

337
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Speaker 1: mistreated at the park. Do you ever feel like if

338
00:18:48,080 --> 00:18:52,399
Speaker 1: I talk to my husband that that lessens the impulse

339
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Speaker 1: to need to then go ahead and write the letter.

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Speaker 3: Not really, And perhaps that's something I should do more of,

341
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Speaker 3: to sort of speak to someone about it. I think

342
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Speaker 3: something about me too, is that I really hold on

343
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Speaker 3: to grudges. I really hold on to perceive slights. It's

344
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Speaker 3: almost like it's a point of pride to keep going

345
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Speaker 3: over these unpleasant interactions I had with people as a

346
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Speaker 3: way of not I don't know, not forgetting as a

347
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Speaker 3: way of saying, oh see they're really bad. They said

348
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Speaker 3: this to me or they did this to me.

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Speaker 2: The thing that strikes me about letter writing when we

350
00:19:32,640 --> 00:19:37,040
Speaker 2: don't send the letters is that there's a certain powerlessness

351
00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:42,080
Speaker 2: that comes with it because the powerlessness feeling is that

352
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Speaker 2: I can't address it with the person directly. I can't

353
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:48,640
Speaker 2: actually get satisfaction. I can't tell them that I feel slighted.

354
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Speaker 2: If that's the case, the best I can do is

355
00:19:51,960 --> 00:19:57,080
Speaker 2: have a revenge fantasy in my head. But to me,

356
00:19:57,160 --> 00:20:01,600
Speaker 2: that is associated with feeling unempowered to actually have an

357
00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,840
Speaker 2: impact in the real world with a person themselves. Your

358
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:08,760
Speaker 2: mother did something similar because she wasn't looking for a conversation.

359
00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:10,920
Speaker 2: She would have spoken to you if she was. She

360
00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:13,560
Speaker 2: was looking to just throw it out there and then

361
00:20:13,600 --> 00:20:16,520
Speaker 2: hope for the best. And I'm wondering about this aspect

362
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 2: of the feeling unempowered to address some of these lights

363
00:20:22,560 --> 00:20:26,280
Speaker 2: directly with the people who slighted you, and is that

364
00:20:26,400 --> 00:20:29,640
Speaker 2: something that you tend to do at all, And how

365
00:20:29,640 --> 00:20:32,199
Speaker 2: does that go when you try and actually have a conversation.

366
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Speaker 3: It's very awkward for me, It's very difficult. I feel

367
00:20:36,720 --> 00:20:41,240
Speaker 3: like when I have to have a difficult conversation with someone,

368
00:20:41,280 --> 00:20:45,080
Speaker 3: it's almost as if like I'm blanking out and I

369
00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:48,359
Speaker 3: have a hard time keeping track of the conversation or

370
00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:54,920
Speaker 3: making coherent points. I would attribute that to my father's

371
00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:58,320
Speaker 3: anger when we were growing up, and what a great volume.

372
00:20:58,480 --> 00:21:01,600
Speaker 3: There was no room for a conversation. And I think

373
00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,040
Speaker 3: a difficult conversation like that now really cows me.

374
00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:09,280
Speaker 2: When you feel slighted or hurt or dismissed or ignored,

375
00:21:09,960 --> 00:21:13,919
Speaker 2: do you also then feel frustration because of the powerlessness

376
00:21:13,920 --> 00:21:17,159
Speaker 2: that you feel because you can't address it directly, so

377
00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,040
Speaker 2: you won't be able to get satisfaction that way. Does

378
00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,800
Speaker 2: that feeling stand out for you?

379
00:21:23,200 --> 00:21:26,360
Speaker 3: Yes, it does, because I know that it just sort

380
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,119
Speaker 3: of goes on a hamster wheel of I feel affronted

381
00:21:30,160 --> 00:21:33,840
Speaker 3: by something, I'll write a letter. There's a slight release,

382
00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,639
Speaker 3: you know, the valve is twisted a little bit, and

383
00:21:36,680 --> 00:21:39,240
Speaker 3: then I'll ruminate on it again. So I write the

384
00:21:39,320 --> 00:21:41,760
Speaker 3: letter and it's a little bit more of vitriolic. It's

385
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:46,200
Speaker 3: a treadmill, and it's exhausting and it's shameful. It's really

386
00:21:46,280 --> 00:21:48,600
Speaker 3: shameful that I do this to people that I love

387
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Speaker 3: and that have shown a great generosity to me.

388
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Speaker 2: Well, but you haven't done anything to them. From what

389
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 2: they know. You actually really pleasant because you never bring

390
00:21:57,119 --> 00:21:58,520
Speaker 2: up any issues, right.

391
00:21:58,520 --> 00:22:00,960
Speaker 3: And maybe I'm mad at myself that I'm not bringing

392
00:22:01,040 --> 00:22:03,880
Speaker 3: up these issues. That's probably a portion of it too.

393
00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:09,480
Speaker 1: You mentioned resentment, and I'm thinking about what Guy was

394
00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 1: saying about how it really fuels more resentment. The way

395
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:17,479
Speaker 1: that you ruminate you think about it, it gets bigger,

396
00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:22,000
Speaker 1: not smaller for you. And the more emotional real estate

397
00:22:22,080 --> 00:22:24,720
Speaker 1: that you devote to this, the more land it takes

398
00:22:24,800 --> 00:22:29,719
Speaker 1: up in your mind. Because it doesn't really feel satisfying.

399
00:22:29,720 --> 00:22:30,520
Speaker 1: It doesn't really go.

400
00:22:30,520 --> 00:22:33,399
Speaker 3: Anyyeah, right, it really doesn't.

401
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:38,200
Speaker 1: We think about resentment almost counterintuitively as related to grieving

402
00:22:39,040 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 1: that sometimes when we carry around a lot of resentment

403
00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:46,280
Speaker 1: towards someone, what we're really resisting is doing some grieving

404
00:22:46,520 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 1: of maybe I'm going to have to let go of something,

405
00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 1: or maybe I'm going to lose this, maybe I can't

406
00:22:55,520 --> 00:22:57,199
Speaker 1: have this kind of closeness in the way that I

407
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,719
Speaker 1: want to have it. So we hold the resentment thinking

408
00:23:01,720 --> 00:23:05,639
Speaker 1: that it's empowering, but in fact it's disempowering. And I

409
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:07,680
Speaker 1: don't think that you see a third way, which is

410
00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:11,400
Speaker 1: is there a way that I can get more acquainted

411
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:15,440
Speaker 1: with what I'm feeling, get more clarity on it, have

412
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:18,400
Speaker 1: some perspective on it, and then be able to pick

413
00:23:18,440 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 1: and choose what I approach my friend about. Once I

414
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:24,439
Speaker 1: have more clarity about what is historical and what is current,

415
00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,080
Speaker 1: what is something that's getting magnified because of my experience

416
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,080
Speaker 1: as a child, and what is something that is really

417
00:23:31,880 --> 00:23:36,760
Speaker 1: very present right now. And those kinds of conversations could

418
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,840
Speaker 1: very well bring you more closeness and not have you

419
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:44,080
Speaker 1: feel the need to rehearse all of these scenarios in

420
00:23:44,119 --> 00:23:44,840
Speaker 1: your head.

421
00:23:45,359 --> 00:23:47,879
Speaker 3: To say that word rehearsal is just so spot on.

422
00:23:48,000 --> 00:23:52,200
Speaker 3: I find myself having these conversations where I'm almost trying

423
00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:54,879
Speaker 3: to prepare for almost comeback, and it's like, why are

424
00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:58,040
Speaker 3: you rehearsing a conversation that hasn't taken place.

425
00:23:58,240 --> 00:23:59,879
Speaker 1: It sounds like what you're doing is you're presenting a

426
00:24:00,040 --> 00:24:03,600
Speaker 1: your case in court. Yeah, and there's a jury that's

427
00:24:03,640 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 1: there in your head and you're trying to convince them.

428
00:24:07,040 --> 00:24:09,800
Speaker 1: And the problem is that really the courtroom is empty.

429
00:24:10,840 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 1: But we do that all the time. It's so common

430
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 1: where something happens in our lives and we have all

431
00:24:15,680 --> 00:24:18,040
Speaker 1: these fantasies about what we'd like to say and why

432
00:24:18,080 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 1: the other person was wrong and why we deserve to

433
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:24,199
Speaker 1: be treated this way, and often we don't tell the

434
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:26,960
Speaker 1: other person, but we're trying to prove our case in

435
00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:29,800
Speaker 1: our head, and that is not very satisfying.

436
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think at the heart of the matter, what

437
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:36,000
Speaker 3: it is is what you said. It's that there's a

438
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,600
Speaker 3: closeness that I'm longing for that has disappeared since she

439
00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:43,359
Speaker 3: married this person. And I know logically friendships they wax

440
00:24:43,400 --> 00:24:46,199
Speaker 3: and they wane, but I really miss that friendship of

441
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 3: how we used to be before this person showed up.

442
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,280
Speaker 3: And I know I can't ask her to throw away

443
00:24:52,320 --> 00:24:53,800
Speaker 3: her husband. That's not reasonable.

444
00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:56,160
Speaker 1: But there's a lot in between asking her to throw

445
00:24:56,160 --> 00:25:01,360
Speaker 1: away her husband and not having closeness with her, right because.

446
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:05,600
Speaker 2: Right now you're the one that's creating the distance, because

447
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,480
Speaker 2: when you write these letters to her and to her husband,

448
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,359
Speaker 2: and as Lori said, when you take the case to court,

449
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:13,879
Speaker 2: to the empty court, because unfairness is what makes us

450
00:25:13,920 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 2: do that. We want to get validation that things are unfair.

451
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:18,639
Speaker 2: So we prepare in our head the case that we

452
00:25:18,640 --> 00:25:21,359
Speaker 2: will present the court in which will be ruled, and indeed,

453
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:23,960
Speaker 2: something unfair was done to us, and there's our validation

454
00:25:24,000 --> 00:25:27,959
Speaker 2: because we're not getting it anywhere else. But when you

455
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:31,119
Speaker 2: do that, the anger and resentment towards the husband and

456
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 2: towards her for having that husband does create a distance

457
00:25:34,720 --> 00:25:38,360
Speaker 2: emotionally between you and her. But that's coming from you,

458
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:40,960
Speaker 2: which you then have to overcome that distance whenever you're

459
00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:44,159
Speaker 2: together or talking with her to be able to reconnect,

460
00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,440
Speaker 2: And so it makes the friendship less satisfying for you. Yeah,

461
00:25:48,520 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: in other words, you're the one that actually pays the

462
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 2: price rather than her.

463
00:25:52,040 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 3: Or her husband, And that's that's exactly how I would

464
00:25:55,160 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 3: characterize the friendship. You know, we see each other sporadically.

465
00:25:58,400 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 3: It's by as high high kiss case, the quick lunch,

466
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:06,000
Speaker 3: and then it feels pretty empty. Again. It's not satisfying.

467
00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:09,920
Speaker 2: Because it's hard to have connective tissue and conversation with

468
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,720
Speaker 2: someone toward him, you're holding so many grudges and resentments

469
00:26:13,760 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 2: and history. It's hard to open up to feel vulnerable

470
00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:19,920
Speaker 2: because there's so much stuff in the way.

471
00:26:20,760 --> 00:26:25,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, you said that you're very uncomfortable bringing up difficult

472
00:26:25,640 --> 00:26:28,840
Speaker 1: topics with people. Can you do that with your husband?

473
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 3: Yes? I can. I don't very often, but I know

474
00:26:33,440 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 3: I can. I know he would make space for me.

475
00:26:36,040 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 3: I know he would hear just about anything and really

476
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:41,600
Speaker 3: try to approach it with an open mind.

477
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,679
Speaker 1: You're saying that he would as if you imagine that

478
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,080
Speaker 1: like the letters that you write, you imagine a scenario.

479
00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:50,199
Speaker 1: But I'd like to hear if you have had a

480
00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: difficult conversation with him that you brought up, and can

481
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:53,879
Speaker 1: you tell us about that.

482
00:26:55,680 --> 00:27:00,239
Speaker 3: You know, we don't fight terribly often. If we have

483
00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:04,119
Speaker 3: a tough topic to discuss, it's my husband who brings

484
00:27:04,119 --> 00:27:06,159
Speaker 3: it up. He's really the one that sort of leads

485
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 3: that conversation. I often feel so like my hands and

486
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,159
Speaker 3: arms are cut off when it's a difficult conversation. And

487
00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:17,879
Speaker 3: he's helpful, never in a way that's like he's telling

488
00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 3: me what I think or what I feel. But I

489
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 3: find him very helpful to help me articulate things. But

490
00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 3: to answer your question, Laurie, I can't say that I've

491
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:28,919
Speaker 3: ever brought up a difficult conversation.

492
00:27:30,119 --> 00:27:33,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, and even there with someone that you feel very,

493
00:27:33,520 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 1: very safe with, it's hard for you to bring something up.

494
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:40,879
Speaker 1: In fifteen years, you have never brought up a difficult

495
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:44,440
Speaker 1: topic between you. It's always been him. Yeah, what's your

496
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:49,320
Speaker 1: fear with your husband? If you were to bring something up?

497
00:27:50,240 --> 00:27:52,000
Speaker 3: I guess my fear, and I think this is a

498
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 3: fear that applies to almost any difficult conversation with anybody,

499
00:27:56,000 --> 00:28:01,920
Speaker 3: is that I won't be able to, I guess, stay

500
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 3: on my ground or articulate my voice because you'll feel

501
00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 3: too flooded to do that, or because they won't listen.

502
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:15,199
Speaker 3: I think I'd feel too overwhelmed. I think i'd feel

503
00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:21,919
Speaker 3: fearful that that the floodgates would open, and that a

504
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:26,560
Speaker 3: lot of hurt would come spilling out. And you know,

505
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:30,399
Speaker 3: as I said before, when I fight with people, I

506
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 3: almost can't think. When I have a difficult conversation, I

507
00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 3: lose the thread a lot, and I lose my thoughts,

508
00:28:39,680 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 3: so you dissociate. Yes, And I have no training in

509
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 3: how to have a positive conversation. I have no experience,

510
00:28:55,600 --> 00:29:00,240
Speaker 3: and I think it feels shameful as a grown woman

511
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 3: that I can't defend myself. And so I take all

512
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:14,600
Speaker 3: of that hurt and I channel it towards these letters.

513
00:29:16,000 --> 00:29:19,160
Speaker 3: And I'm sure that you know these letters are not

514
00:29:19,280 --> 00:29:22,080
Speaker 3: just toward that one person, but it's towards all of

515
00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 3: the people that I feel angry about. It's just easier

516
00:29:25,000 --> 00:29:27,360
Speaker 3: for me to sort of sift it down into one person.

517
00:29:29,680 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 3: But yes, fighting is very, very scary for me.

518
00:29:34,440 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 1: See, we weren't even talking about fighting. We were talking

519
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: about a conversation. But for you, in your mind, there's

520
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:47,000
Speaker 1: no difference between bringing something up to help prepare something

521
00:29:47,920 --> 00:29:48,560
Speaker 1: and fighting.

522
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 3: That's right. I can't see them as being separate.

523
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,000
Speaker 1: And yet when your husband brings these things up to you,

524
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: do you feel that that's fighting or do you feel

525
00:29:57,960 --> 00:29:59,120
Speaker 1: like you're having a conversation.

526
00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 3: I feel like we're a conversation. I trust him, and

527
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:09,560
Speaker 3: I never feel like it's going to be combative. I

528
00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,480
Speaker 3: know that I can always get to the words somehow,

529
00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:17,720
Speaker 3: but with other people, I don't know why I sort

530
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,960
Speaker 3: of revert into this like I'm cowering in a corner.

531
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 3: I know what I feel and I know what I think,

532
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 3: but somehow to express that to people it's so tough

533
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 3: for me.

534
00:30:31,720 --> 00:30:35,760
Speaker 1: Can you give us an example of something that happened

535
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: recently with anyone? Is that it's not just with this friend? Yeah,

536
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,680
Speaker 1: where you said you know exactly what you're feeling.

537
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:50,560
Speaker 3: Sure. I was talking to a fellow mom on the

538
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:55,920
Speaker 3: playground a few months ago, and she was ranting about

539
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:59,880
Speaker 3: someone that we know in common, and the person I

540
00:30:59,920 --> 00:31:03,360
Speaker 3: was talking to she has a dusk job, and she

541
00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,120
Speaker 3: was all of a sudden making snide comments about this

542
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,000
Speaker 3: third party not having a job. She was just a

543
00:31:11,080 --> 00:31:14,719
Speaker 3: stay at home mother, and she was really denigrating and

544
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:16,959
Speaker 3: pitting sort of the work moms and the stay at

545
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 3: home moms, pitting them against one another. And I said

546
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,200
Speaker 3: to her, well, you do realize that I must stay

547
00:31:23,240 --> 00:31:27,120
Speaker 3: at home mom. And I can't remember exactly what she said,

548
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,320
Speaker 3: but she glossed over it, and she kept talking in

549
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,880
Speaker 3: a very condescending manner about this woman, implying that she

550
00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 3: does nothing. And I've stowed about it for days. I

551
00:31:39,560 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 3: continue to doe about it because she knows full well

552
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,080
Speaker 3: that I'm a stay at home parent. And yet even

553
00:31:44,120 --> 00:31:46,480
Speaker 3: as I told her to back off that I found

554
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:50,640
Speaker 3: this offensive, she kept going. And in the moment, for me,

555
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 3: it was easier just to sort of walk away from

556
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 3: this person rolling my eyes. But I still feel that

557
00:31:58,200 --> 00:32:03,239
Speaker 3: smart and I've sort of spun that interaction into her

558
00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:08,280
Speaker 3: being a horrible person, a neglectful mother, inconsiderate of other people,

559
00:32:08,840 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 3: and it just has sort of become this hurricane.

560
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 1: But I was asking what you felt, so I'm hearing

561
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 1: a lot about what you thought. Yeah, tell me what

562
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:18,640
Speaker 1: the feeling was.

563
00:32:19,120 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, I felt disrespected and unheard, and those I think

564
00:32:23,240 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 3: are my trigger points. I felt small.

565
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,160
Speaker 2: What do you wish you would have said to her

566
00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 2: in that moment?

567
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:32,720
Speaker 3: I wish I could have told her to I mean,

568
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:35,960
Speaker 3: buzz off. I mean, she probably shouldn't say this to me.

569
00:32:37,040 --> 00:32:39,120
Speaker 2: What occurred to me also is that you can think

570
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 2: about it in hindsight and you can articulate it very

571
00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 2: clearly in the moment, the anxiety you feel is so

572
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 2: severe that you truly dissociate. And I'm just was wondering

573
00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 2: whether you had any knowledge about whether that's something that

574
00:32:53,080 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 2: happened to your mom, And maybe that's why she would

575
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 2: write letters, because she too might not have been able

576
00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:01,200
Speaker 2: to handle a direct conversation.

577
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:06,960
Speaker 3: Yes, I believe so. She had a very hard, charging

578
00:33:07,000 --> 00:33:13,280
Speaker 3: mother who would tell you exactly what she thought, tolerated

579
00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:15,080
Speaker 3: no other opinions.

580
00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:22,240
Speaker 1: So your grandmother would express herself in a very unthoughtful way, yeah,

581
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: and then your mother would express herself also in a

582
00:33:25,960 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: very rigid way and maybe unthoughtful, but never directly to later.

583
00:33:33,120 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 3: Yeah. I've often thought about that.

584
00:33:35,320 --> 00:33:40,800
Speaker 1: And when we talk about intergenerational trauma, this is a

585
00:33:41,360 --> 00:33:45,120
Speaker 1: way of being that has been passed down through the generations,

586
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,200
Speaker 1: and it's always the person who comes and says, I'm

587
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,360
Speaker 1: having trouble with this. Who can put a stop to it,

588
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 1: who can really end the cycle? And I think it's

589
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 1: interesting that the word you used when you said this

590
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:03,719
Speaker 1: woman was talking to you and I said how did

591
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:08,200
Speaker 1: you feel? And you said I felt very small, because

592
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:13,000
Speaker 1: you probably did feel small, literally like you felt as

593
00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:13,600
Speaker 1: a child.

594
00:34:13,960 --> 00:34:15,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, totally, totally.

595
00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:18,759
Speaker 2: Is this something you've ever spoken about with your siblings.

596
00:34:18,960 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 2: Is it a conversation you've had about the style your

597
00:34:21,160 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 2: parents had with the shunning and the letters, and the

598
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,160
Speaker 2: impact that had on you.

599
00:34:24,840 --> 00:34:27,680
Speaker 3: It's interesting you say that because I recently saw both

600
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,080
Speaker 3: my brothers over the holidays. My father is in the

601
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 3: middle of dementia and he really can't handle having grandchildren

602
00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 3: around him because he doesn't know who is who. He

603
00:34:37,920 --> 00:34:42,279
Speaker 3: had an outburst yelled at some small grandchildren. But my

604
00:34:42,320 --> 00:34:46,520
Speaker 3: oldest brother said to me, she just like being twelve again,

605
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 3: And I kind of thought, like, oh, look at you.

606
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 3: That's right. Like if anybody has been more forward in

607
00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,279
Speaker 3: talking about our father and how sort of oppressive he was,

608
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,960
Speaker 3: it's me. I felt like a little glimmer of hope

609
00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,319
Speaker 3: hearing my brother say that, an acknowledgment that, like his

610
00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 3: childhood had been kind of miserable too.

611
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:12,680
Speaker 1: Have you ever directly talked to your brothers about the

612
00:35:12,800 --> 00:35:17,719
Speaker 1: experience of being children together and your father's outbursts and

613
00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:19,160
Speaker 1: your mother's letters.

614
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,680
Speaker 3: No, we haven't. We've had some comments where I know

615
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 3: that they felt similarly, but no, we've skated over it

616
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:32,120
Speaker 3: and made comments. I think because it was traumatic for us.

617
00:35:32,160 --> 00:35:35,040
Speaker 3: All we try to put it behind us.

618
00:35:35,640 --> 00:35:38,279
Speaker 1: That comment, though, about oh, which just like being twelve again,

619
00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,320
Speaker 1: feels a little bit like an acknowledgment and opening.

620
00:35:42,600 --> 00:35:43,440
Speaker 3: That's how I read it.

621
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 1: Can you give us an example of the most recent

622
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: letter that you've written in your head with this friend.

623
00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:55,800
Speaker 3: Sure, I'll give you an example of a letter I

624
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,040
Speaker 3: would write to the spouse. I would probably say something

625
00:35:59,040 --> 00:36:02,680
Speaker 3: about how my friend had an affair because she was

626
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,280
Speaker 3: so frustrated and bored by you, And I would probably

627
00:36:07,120 --> 00:36:10,080
Speaker 3: end it by saying, that's how everyone finds you boring

628
00:36:10,160 --> 00:36:15,279
Speaker 3: and frustrating. They're just written to eviscerate, and no, there's

629
00:36:15,320 --> 00:36:18,920
Speaker 3: nothing really about them other than to hurt.

630
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,239
Speaker 2: But you don't convey your hurt. In other words, the

631
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:26,520
Speaker 2: letter isn't I'm very upset with you because you took

632
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:30,120
Speaker 2: my friend away from me, and you cost me this

633
00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:33,080
Speaker 2: bond that was so special to me for so long,

634
00:36:33,239 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 2: and you created such resentment in me that it's difficult

635
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,040
Speaker 2: for me now to really connect with her and to

636
00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:42,000
Speaker 2: reach the depths of friendship that we used to have.

637
00:36:42,719 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 2: That's not what the letter is. Have you ever written

638
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 2: a letter like that that actually just speaks about how

639
00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:53,480
Speaker 2: you feel. No, no, why not do you think?

640
00:36:54,800 --> 00:36:57,600
Speaker 3: I think because it's harder for me to express myself.

641
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 2: I think it's because it's more pained to do that,

642
00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:05,520
Speaker 2: to confront yourself with how you're really feeling, with the

643
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 2: loss that you really experience, with the sense of injustice

644
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:12,640
Speaker 2: that you have, with that sense of powerlessness and frustration.

645
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:15,359
Speaker 2: I think it taps into that. Yeah, and I think

646
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:17,279
Speaker 2: you're trying to stay away from that, even though you

647
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 2: do have access to it, because when we speak about it,

648
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,480
Speaker 2: you get tearful. But the letters are not just the

649
00:37:22,600 --> 00:37:25,680
Speaker 2: venting there to keep you away from the real painful

650
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,160
Speaker 2: stuff that's going on underneath.

651
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, I see that, and I agree with you.

652
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:38,960
Speaker 1: Are you wanting something to change with your friend or

653
00:37:39,000 --> 00:37:41,880
Speaker 1: with her husband, because you were talking about a letter

654
00:37:41,880 --> 00:37:44,399
Speaker 1: to her husband. What are the letters that you write

655
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:44,959
Speaker 1: to your friend?

656
00:37:45,480 --> 00:37:51,919
Speaker 3: The most recent versions would have to do with how

657
00:37:51,920 --> 00:37:56,879
Speaker 3: she's raising her children, or who are all lovely by

658
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 3: the way, I would perhaps see the child and the

659
00:38:01,200 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 3: child in completely the normal course of being an eight

660
00:38:05,480 --> 00:38:07,880
Speaker 3: year old or a nine year old has a moment

661
00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:12,680
Speaker 3: where they act out, so I would probably say something like, well,

662
00:38:12,760 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 3: your child is disrespectful to you, and everyone thinks is

663
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:22,240
Speaker 3: a brat. Really, the crux of my letters are written

664
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:27,799
Speaker 3: to this husband, So you know the letters that I

665
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,880
Speaker 3: write to my friend, I would probably also point out

666
00:38:31,920 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 3: how awful her husband is.

667
00:38:34,560 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 1: It sounds like she shares her own difficulty with her

668
00:38:39,760 --> 00:38:43,000
Speaker 1: husband with you, Yes, And I wonder what that's like,

669
00:38:43,120 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 1: given your own feelings toward him. What role do you

670
00:38:46,719 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: play in that when she brings up something difficult about

671
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 1: her husband.

672
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:54,759
Speaker 3: Well after they were first married, there was a very

673
00:38:54,840 --> 00:38:59,319
Speaker 3: rocky period immediately following their marriage, and it looked as

674
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:04,319
Speaker 3: if the marriage would be over very quickly. And I

675
00:39:04,360 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 3: remember being out with her one night and she was

676
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 3: telling me his terrible treatment of her, and I offered

677
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:14,880
Speaker 3: her a place to stay, and I said, you know,

678
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:17,560
Speaker 3: you can always stay with me for however long you need,

679
00:39:18,320 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 3: but I don't believe that you deserve this treatment. Within

680
00:39:25,080 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 3: a couple weeks, things were repaired, they were back together,

681
00:39:30,560 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 3: and it was as if sort of an iceberg had

682
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:38,840
Speaker 3: come in between us. I think she was greatly offended

683
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 3: by me saying, based upon what she told me, that

684
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,319
Speaker 3: if you want to leave him, I will help you.

685
00:39:47,239 --> 00:39:49,840
Speaker 3: I think she wanted to vent and the fact that

686
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:52,839
Speaker 3: I gave her advice put a wedge in between us.

687
00:39:54,440 --> 00:39:57,240
Speaker 1: But she still shares things that happen with her husband

688
00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 1: with you.

689
00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:00,839
Speaker 3: Yes, And now what I say is I just say, do.

690
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 2: You share any struggles with her? Since she's sharing such

691
00:40:03,600 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 2: personal things, do you?

692
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 3: She never asks, And when I try to bring something

693
00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 3: up that has happened to me, something about my family

694
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:18,080
Speaker 3: or my father, it almost always reverts back to her.

695
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,680
Speaker 3: And I'm certain that's feeling. Some of my anger in

696
00:40:22,719 --> 00:40:24,680
Speaker 3: this situation is that I don't feel heard.

697
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:30,920
Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like there's a lot of reciprocity in

698
00:40:30,960 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 1: the friendship.

699
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:35,400
Speaker 3: You're absolutely right. The way that the friendship is structured,

700
00:40:35,520 --> 00:40:38,960
Speaker 3: there's very little reciprocity. I'm aware of the imbalance of it.

701
00:40:39,000 --> 00:40:43,480
Speaker 3: And I have tried to talk about, you know, my children,

702
00:40:43,520 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 3: not in a way that feels forceful, but just to

703
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 3: sort of even things out, and it always seems to

704
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:53,400
Speaker 3: go back to her and her situation or her life

705
00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 3: whatever it is.

706
00:40:54,800 --> 00:40:57,560
Speaker 1: You know, of all the letters that you write in

707
00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:01,279
Speaker 1: your head, I haven't heard you write a letter in

708
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:07,040
Speaker 1: your head to your mother or your father. Yeah, when

709
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 1: you were young, did you do that? Did you make

710
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 1: your case. Did you have your courtroom in your head

711
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 1: when you would feel misunderstood or mistreated.

712
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:17,800
Speaker 3: Yes, in my head, I would definitely write them letters.

713
00:41:18,600 --> 00:41:21,560
Speaker 3: It was too scary, though, to think about having an

714
00:41:21,800 --> 00:41:25,719
Speaker 3: actual face to face conversation with them. My father would

715
00:41:25,760 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 3: just walk away. I'm almost positive of it.

716
00:41:28,680 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 1: So you've been writing these letters, in fact, for a

717
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:31,520
Speaker 1: very very long time.

718
00:41:32,760 --> 00:41:33,080
Speaker 3: Yes.

719
00:41:34,560 --> 00:41:38,319
Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about what your relationship with

720
00:41:38,360 --> 00:41:39,600
Speaker 1: your mother is like now.

721
00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 3: I touch base with her usually every day, every other day.

722
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 3: She is recovering from about of cancer. We talk, but

723
00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:55,680
Speaker 3: we don't talk about anything that's you know, I had

724
00:41:55,680 --> 00:41:59,239
Speaker 3: a fight, I'm feeling very closed in today, or something

725
00:41:59,280 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 3: like that. We just would never talk about that. My

726
00:42:01,360 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 3: mother is relentlessly positive, relentlessly positive, and you always look

727
00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:10,080
Speaker 3: to the bright side. If someone offends you, you just

728
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 3: shake your head and roll your eyes and move on,

729
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 3: and you don't waste time on stuff like that.

730
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,719
Speaker 2: Well, you write them a letter, really, yeah, exactly.

731
00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:21,080
Speaker 3: She has her own ways of dealing with it. So

732
00:42:21,320 --> 00:42:25,839
Speaker 3: I'm close with her, but I'm not emotionally close with her.

733
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:28,720
Speaker 3: I want her to be a part of my children's lives,

734
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 3: and she's a wonderful grandmother cozy in a way that

735
00:42:32,719 --> 00:42:35,560
Speaker 3: I didn't have the grandmother be cozy with me, And

736
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,080
Speaker 3: I'm really happy for that relationship. She loves those girls

737
00:42:39,120 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 3: so much. But she just is not an emotional mother.

738
00:42:42,920 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 3: She never has been an emotional mother that would give

739
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:49,160
Speaker 3: me advice or I don't feel like she or my

740
00:42:49,239 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 3: father ever taught me how to navigate difficult conversations.

741
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,360
Speaker 1: I want you to notice that you said she's cozy

742
00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:58,440
Speaker 1: with them in a way that I didn't have that

743
00:42:58,520 --> 00:43:01,560
Speaker 1: with a grandmother. But you didn't say she's cozy in

744
00:43:01,600 --> 00:43:03,680
Speaker 1: a way with them that I didn't have with my mother.

745
00:43:04,480 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 3: True.

746
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 1: Do you see how far away you stay from those

747
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:08,320
Speaker 1: painful feelings?

748
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 4: Yeah?

749
00:43:09,360 --> 00:43:12,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, I have to tell you that there's been one

750
00:43:12,840 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 3: time in my life that my mother called me sweetheart.

751
00:43:15,680 --> 00:43:19,319
Speaker 3: She called me something other than Catherine. And when she

752
00:43:19,480 --> 00:43:23,360
Speaker 3: called me sweetheart, I remember just freezing and just I

753
00:43:23,400 --> 00:43:28,160
Speaker 3: couldn't believe that she used a term of endearment towards me.

754
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:31,799
Speaker 3: It was so strange. I still remember where I was

755
00:43:31,920 --> 00:43:35,440
Speaker 3: and just kind of thinking, like, I can't believe she

756
00:43:35,480 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 3: said something to me like that. It was almost like

757
00:43:38,400 --> 00:43:39,120
Speaker 3: being slapped.

758
00:43:39,480 --> 00:43:42,360
Speaker 1: You kind of dissociated too, you kind of froze.

759
00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:44,320
Speaker 3: Yeah.

760
00:43:44,640 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 4: Yeah.

761
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:49,359
Speaker 1: Have you had a friendship that's been reciprocal and satisfying.

762
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 3: Yes, Yes. It was somebody I met through work and

763
00:43:53,400 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 3: it's been a friendship of about twenty years or so.

764
00:43:57,360 --> 00:44:00,799
Speaker 3: This person has subsequently moved to another state and we

765
00:44:00,880 --> 00:44:03,880
Speaker 3: don't talk very often, but it's an immediate and deep

766
00:44:03,920 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 3: friendship when we do. I feel very comfortable with her,

767
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 3: sort of like my husband. I feel like she has

768
00:44:09,920 --> 00:44:13,759
Speaker 3: an emotional adroitness that I admire and one that I

769
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:15,160
Speaker 3: know won't be used against me.

770
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:18,560
Speaker 1: So you don't freeze with her. You're able to bring

771
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:20,719
Speaker 1: up things with her, although it sounds like probably not

772
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 1: a lot comes up because you're not in the same location.

773
00:44:24,640 --> 00:44:29,840
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I do feel comfortable having difficult conversations with her.

774
00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:31,160
Speaker 1: Have you ever done that?

775
00:44:31,719 --> 00:44:34,400
Speaker 3: Yeah? I think at one point it was probably in

776
00:44:34,440 --> 00:44:37,480
Speaker 3: the lead up to her wedding. It was all we

777
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:40,239
Speaker 3: talked about, and I asked her for a little bit

778
00:44:40,239 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 3: of space because I couldn't talk about this wedding anymore.

779
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 3: I just needed a break, and she was very respectful

780
00:44:46,120 --> 00:44:46,279
Speaker 3: of that.

781
00:44:46,840 --> 00:44:48,800
Speaker 1: And it didn't make the friendship go away.

782
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,320
Speaker 3: No, it didn't make the friendship go away. I still

783
00:44:51,800 --> 00:44:54,479
Speaker 3: count that as one of my most important friendships, and

784
00:44:54,800 --> 00:44:56,040
Speaker 3: I'm very thankful for it.

785
00:44:57,080 --> 00:44:58,840
Speaker 1: Does she know how much you appreciated that?

786
00:45:00,880 --> 00:45:03,319
Speaker 3: I don't know. I should probably tell her about that.

787
00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:06,959
Speaker 2: Does your husband know how much you appreciate him?

788
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,359
Speaker 3: I think he does. I think we have a good

789
00:45:09,719 --> 00:45:12,239
Speaker 3: a good way of just sort of day in day out,

790
00:45:12,280 --> 00:45:14,520
Speaker 3: you know, a touch on the shoulder. He is. I

791
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:18,520
Speaker 3: will say this very good about every day saying I

792
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:22,000
Speaker 3: appreciate you. I am less good. But I will tell

793
00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:25,080
Speaker 3: you something. The big difference between my husband and I.

794
00:45:26,200 --> 00:45:29,280
Speaker 3: My husband lost his father in a terrible boating accident,

795
00:45:30,680 --> 00:45:36,720
Speaker 3: so he understands far better than I do about losing people.

796
00:45:38,440 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 3: He has done a great deal of work emotionally processing

797
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:48,440
Speaker 3: that loss, and although I know it has been the

798
00:45:48,560 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 3: defining moment in his life, it has brought him a

799
00:45:53,080 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 3: real emotional clarity and a facility with saying I need help,

800
00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,719
Speaker 3: who can help me? And and taking that help. And

801
00:46:03,200 --> 00:46:07,080
Speaker 3: I have not had that experience of loss.

802
00:46:07,680 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: I think you have had an experience of loss. It

803
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 1: just looks different. You mentioned when your mother called you sweetheart,

804
00:46:14,640 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 1: it you froze. Yeah, what do you do when your

805
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:19,200
Speaker 1: husband tells you I appreciate you.

806
00:46:20,120 --> 00:46:22,520
Speaker 3: Well, he usually comes in for a kiss and it's

807
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:24,560
Speaker 3: very sweet, and I love that he does that.

808
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:26,600
Speaker 1: But what happens inside your body?

809
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:29,879
Speaker 4: Well, I think it's a little bit still of an

810
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 4: unfamiliar feeling, but it's also quite sweet and welcome. Does

811
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 4: your body freeze, well, a little bit, But you know

812
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:38,600
Speaker 4: I return his kiss or his hug.

813
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, but verbally you don't. Oh, yeah, very turn the sentiment.

814
00:46:42,800 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 3: You know what I usually say. I usually say we

815
00:46:45,360 --> 00:46:49,560
Speaker 3: have a wonderful life together, because we do do.

816
00:46:50,000 --> 00:46:53,680
Speaker 5: And I really feel that I'm laughing because it's like

817
00:46:53,800 --> 00:46:56,439
Speaker 5: if someone says I love you, and you say things

818
00:46:56,440 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 5: are very nice, right, it's not personal, it's not intimate,

819
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 5: it's not about you specifically. We have a nice life

820
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:08,960
Speaker 5: together is a very safe response.

821
00:47:09,320 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I appreciate you too is a less safe response.

822
00:47:15,360 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 3: Right. It's just it's wildly unfamiliar to me to be

823
00:47:20,680 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 3: I guess more of vulnerable.

824
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:24,279
Speaker 2: Do you say I love you to him?

825
00:47:24,440 --> 00:47:27,480
Speaker 3: Oh? Yes, yes, we say that quite often. I'm very

826
00:47:27,480 --> 00:47:30,160
Speaker 3: comfortable saying that to him. I'm very comfortable saying it

827
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:34,600
Speaker 3: to my children. When my mother calls, she never says

828
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 3: the word I, but she just says love you, you know,

829
00:47:40,560 --> 00:47:43,800
Speaker 3: and I notice that, and I don't want my husband

830
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 3: or my children to feel that because there's a lot

831
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,520
Speaker 3: of space missing from that word.

832
00:47:50,120 --> 00:47:55,960
Speaker 1: There's a huge space left by the lack of the eye.

833
00:47:56,520 --> 00:48:05,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, so, Catherine, we have some advice for you. When

834
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,359
Speaker 2: here's the first part. We spoke about the fact that

835
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 2: when there's something intense emotionally going on, you tend to dissociate.

836
00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 2: That's what keeps you, in part from being able to

837
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:20,480
Speaker 2: have confrontations or even difficult discussions with people. But it

838
00:48:20,520 --> 00:48:23,799
Speaker 2: also happened when good things happen, when your mom calls

839
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:28,040
Speaker 2: your sweetheart, or when your husband says something very loving

840
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:30,480
Speaker 2: to you, then you also have a little bit of

841
00:48:30,480 --> 00:48:34,279
Speaker 2: a freezon that moment because it's intense. So the first

842
00:48:34,280 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 2: thing we'd like you to do is we'd like you

843
00:48:36,760 --> 00:48:39,200
Speaker 2: to express to your husband. And we think the best

844
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:40,680
Speaker 2: way for you to do this would be to write

845
00:48:40,719 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 2: it out, not as a letter, but just write it

846
00:48:42,360 --> 00:48:45,600
Speaker 2: out and then read it to him. He says to

847
00:48:45,640 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 2: you that he appreciates you all the time, you said,

848
00:48:48,880 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 2: and your response, people areking the said is like, yes,

849
00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:53,040
Speaker 2: we have a nice life together and we want you

850
00:48:53,120 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 2: to make it more personal. We'd like you to express

851
00:48:55,520 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 2: to him how much you appreciate him, and we'd like

852
00:48:59,520 --> 00:49:03,480
Speaker 2: you to make it very personal about how he makes

853
00:49:03,520 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 2: you feel, that you feel safe with him, whatever the

854
00:49:07,480 --> 00:49:10,120
Speaker 2: things are that are specific that he does that is

855
00:49:10,160 --> 00:49:15,839
Speaker 2: so emotionally expressive, that you admire how well he recovered

856
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:18,479
Speaker 2: from the loss of his dad and how much work

857
00:49:18,520 --> 00:49:21,520
Speaker 2: he did in therapy and work on himself and be

858
00:49:21,640 --> 00:49:24,839
Speaker 2: such a loving dad after that kind of loss. We'd

859
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 2: like you to write it out, because we think that'll

860
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:28,359
Speaker 2: be easier if you wrote it out ahead of time,

861
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 2: but then we'd like you to read it to him

862
00:49:31,800 --> 00:49:34,400
Speaker 2: and see how you feel doing that. But we'd like

863
00:49:34,480 --> 00:49:36,239
Speaker 2: you to not only do that, but then also be

864
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:39,239
Speaker 2: able to sit with his response and sit with how

865
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:42,120
Speaker 2: he's receiving it, and especially if it's meaningful to him,

866
00:49:42,600 --> 00:49:45,400
Speaker 2: to be able to take that in as well, because

867
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 2: that's connective tissue we think you can have even more

868
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:49,799
Speaker 2: of with him.

869
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 3: I can do that.

870
00:49:51,239 --> 00:49:55,560
Speaker 1: And as we're talking about having a more direct connection

871
00:49:55,960 --> 00:49:59,400
Speaker 1: with your husband, we were thinking about your friend about

872
00:49:59,440 --> 00:50:01,719
Speaker 1: how many of the letters that you write in your

873
00:50:01,760 --> 00:50:04,720
Speaker 1: head around that friendship are actually directed toward her husband.

874
00:50:05,920 --> 00:50:08,600
Speaker 1: We would like you to focus more on the relationship

875
00:50:08,640 --> 00:50:11,360
Speaker 1: between you and your friend, regardless of what's going on

876
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:15,279
Speaker 1: in their marriage. And one of the things that was

877
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,200
Speaker 1: interesting was you talked about how close you are, but

878
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:19,320
Speaker 1: at the same time, there doesn't seem to be a

879
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 1: lot of room for you to get support from her.

880
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:26,200
Speaker 1: The conversation kind of drifts back to whatever is going

881
00:50:26,239 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 1: on with her.

882
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:27,960
Speaker 3: You have this.

883
00:50:28,000 --> 00:50:32,319
Speaker 1: Idea that either you confront somebody and everything could blow up,

884
00:50:32,320 --> 00:50:34,560
Speaker 1: which is why you don't confront people, or you write

885
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:36,919
Speaker 1: letters in your head and you plot revenge. And those

886
00:50:36,920 --> 00:50:39,880
Speaker 1: are the two alternatives. We want to give you a

887
00:50:39,920 --> 00:50:43,200
Speaker 1: third way. We would like you to call your friend

888
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:46,360
Speaker 1: and say, is there a time that we can talk,

889
00:50:46,880 --> 00:50:48,799
Speaker 1: And we'd like you to talk about something going on

890
00:50:48,880 --> 00:50:52,200
Speaker 1: in your own life, and maybe it's your father right

891
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 1: now with dementia and some of the difficulty because your

892
00:50:55,200 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 1: family doesn't really talk about things. And if she readirects

893
00:50:58,400 --> 00:50:59,719
Speaker 1: and says, let me tell you about what's going on

894
00:50:59,760 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 1: with my husband instead of just sitting there and then

895
00:51:03,440 --> 00:51:07,399
Speaker 1: writing a revenge letter later in the moment, you can say,

896
00:51:07,400 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 1: you know, I'm happy to talk about that later, but

897
00:51:09,239 --> 00:51:11,359
Speaker 1: right now, I'm really struggling with this. Can we talk

898
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:16,280
Speaker 1: about this a little bit more and see how she responds. Now,

899
00:51:16,320 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 1: she might not be able to do that with you,

900
00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:23,120
Speaker 1: and that's good information, and the information is, oh, okay,

901
00:51:23,239 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 1: she's not a person that really has the capacity for that,

902
00:51:26,840 --> 00:51:29,440
Speaker 1: And that might motivate you to look at the other

903
00:51:29,520 --> 00:51:33,279
Speaker 1: relationships in your life and other friendships so that you

904
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:36,760
Speaker 1: don't lose this friendship. But maybe it serves certain purposes

905
00:51:36,800 --> 00:51:39,399
Speaker 1: for you but not others, so you're not simmering all

906
00:51:39,400 --> 00:51:42,800
Speaker 1: the time with this feeling of being unacknowledged or unseen

907
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 1: or unheard. The other possibility is that she might respond well,

908
00:51:47,440 --> 00:51:50,359
Speaker 1: and she might really be there for you. And now

909
00:51:50,400 --> 00:51:53,239
Speaker 1: what you're doing is you're changing that assumption you have

910
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: that she just doesn't have an interest in you, and

911
00:51:57,120 --> 00:51:59,440
Speaker 1: you're saying, oh, I haven't been stepping up. I haven't

912
00:51:59,440 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 1: been sharing myself with her because I was afraid to.

913
00:52:02,640 --> 00:52:05,520
Speaker 1: But when I do insert myself into the conversation and

914
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:08,440
Speaker 1: I tell her what I need, she's actually quite responsive.

915
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,840
Speaker 1: And this takes you away from the whole obsession around

916
00:52:11,880 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: the husband and all the revenge fantasies around him, and

917
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:18,320
Speaker 1: it puts you right there in the friendship to see

918
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:20,080
Speaker 1: what this friendship can be.

919
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 6: Yeah, because that's entirely what I want, so that you're

920
00:52:24,640 --> 00:52:28,440
Speaker 6: not sitting there feeling helpless like you experienced growing up,

921
00:52:29,000 --> 00:52:30,920
Speaker 6: and then you feel like you have no recourse other

922
00:52:30,960 --> 00:52:32,919
Speaker 6: than to have these court cases go on in your mind.

923
00:52:34,239 --> 00:52:34,479
Speaker 3: Yeah.

924
00:52:35,040 --> 00:52:37,320
Speaker 1: And our hope is that once you establish more trust,

925
00:52:37,520 --> 00:52:40,880
Speaker 1: that you can be in this friendship differently. Maybe you

926
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 1: guys will start talking about the friendship itself at a

927
00:52:44,200 --> 00:52:46,000
Speaker 1: certain point to be able to say to her, Hey,

928
00:52:46,040 --> 00:52:48,480
Speaker 1: I miss you, can we get together, or even positive

929
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:51,120
Speaker 1: things like I've really enjoyed how we've been talking lately.

930
00:52:51,160 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 1: It makes me feel really close with you. Little statements

931
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:59,440
Speaker 1: like that really can have an effect on the entire

932
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:01,319
Speaker 1: feeling of what the friendship is like.

933
00:53:01,840 --> 00:53:03,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, I like that.

934
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:06,440
Speaker 2: One more thing we have for you to do. We

935
00:53:06,520 --> 00:53:11,280
Speaker 2: were thinking about your childhood and how unseen you felt,

936
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 2: and how unable you will to speak up because your

937
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:17,879
Speaker 2: dad would just bark and your mom wouldn't communicate. You'd

938
00:53:17,880 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 2: send a letter but not have the conversation. We'd like

939
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:26,360
Speaker 2: you to get in touch with how that felt to

940
00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:30,920
Speaker 2: grow up in that house because your letters tend to

941
00:53:31,000 --> 00:53:35,720
Speaker 2: be an attempt to, in fantasy hurt the other person,

942
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:39,520
Speaker 2: but you're writing them because you're not looking at your

943
00:53:39,560 --> 00:53:41,960
Speaker 2: own hurt. And we'd like you to get in touch

944
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:45,840
Speaker 2: with some of that hurt from childhood. So we'd like

945
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,919
Speaker 2: you to actually write a real letter. Now it will

946
00:53:48,920 --> 00:53:51,400
Speaker 2: be one you don't send, but we'd like you to

947
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:56,760
Speaker 2: write a letter to your mum in which you tell

948
00:53:56,800 --> 00:53:59,279
Speaker 2: her and describe to her what it was like for

949
00:53:59,320 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 2: you to grow up in the house, what it was

950
00:54:03,000 --> 00:54:06,400
Speaker 2: like for you to receive that letter from her about

951
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,520
Speaker 2: the box that you didn't love and gather dust. We'd

952
00:54:09,560 --> 00:54:11,120
Speaker 2: like you to tell her what it was like to

953
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:14,160
Speaker 2: not be able to speak up, what it was like

954
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:17,759
Speaker 2: to be told that the weight of the future of

955
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,080
Speaker 2: America is in your hands and that a minus is

956
00:54:20,080 --> 00:54:22,160
Speaker 2: going to cost us Aul dearly. You know, we'd like

957
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:24,120
Speaker 2: you to be as honest and as open as you can,

958
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:28,160
Speaker 2: because you won't be sending the letter to her, what

959
00:54:28,200 --> 00:54:32,120
Speaker 2: you will be doing with it after you're done. We

960
00:54:32,239 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 2: want you to be seen, So we'd like you just

961
00:54:34,040 --> 00:54:37,400
Speaker 2: to share it with your husband and say, this is

962
00:54:37,400 --> 00:54:39,879
Speaker 2: a letter I'm not sending to my mom. Someone has

963
00:54:39,920 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 2: to hear it and I'll appreciate so much of that

964
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:47,000
Speaker 2: with you and read it to him and be able

965
00:54:47,040 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 2: to express it and be heard and be seen by someone.

966
00:54:51,880 --> 00:54:53,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that idea.

967
00:54:55,200 --> 00:54:58,000
Speaker 1: And then we'd also like you to sit with what

968
00:54:58,040 --> 00:55:01,600
Speaker 1: it feels like when he resis what is it like

969
00:55:01,680 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 1: not only to be able to let your feelings be

970
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 1: seen by yourself, which we think you don't do enough

971
00:55:08,200 --> 00:55:10,080
Speaker 1: because you're so focused on the other people and the

972
00:55:10,080 --> 00:55:13,680
Speaker 1: revenge fantasies, but what is it like to be seen

973
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:17,359
Speaker 1: by someone I'm close with? Yea, those are the three

974
00:55:17,400 --> 00:55:21,520
Speaker 1: tasks for the week, okay, and we're really looking forward

975
00:55:21,520 --> 00:55:22,560
Speaker 1: to hearing how those go for you.

976
00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:27,160
Speaker 3: Oh, thank you. This has been something more than I

977
00:55:27,200 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 3: could have imagined.

978
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:38,040
Speaker 2: I really feel for Catherine because growing up feeling so

979
00:55:38,360 --> 00:55:42,560
Speaker 2: unseen and dealing with that silent treatment and the shunning,

980
00:55:42,680 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 2: it's so painful, and then experiencing that in her adult

981
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,439
Speaker 2: life over and over again because she can't speak up

982
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:52,759
Speaker 2: and so she feels so unseen and then so powerless.

983
00:55:53,760 --> 00:55:56,239
Speaker 2: It is just very difficult to deal with for so

984
00:55:56,280 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 2: many decades.

985
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:02,839
Speaker 1: And what's interesting is that sometimes people don't realize that

986
00:56:03,000 --> 00:56:07,880
Speaker 1: there's an intergenerational transmission. We saw that it might present differently,

987
00:56:08,040 --> 00:56:12,839
Speaker 1: where her grandmother was very critical and outspoken, and then

988
00:56:13,000 --> 00:56:15,719
Speaker 1: the mother was very critical writing letters, but we're not

989
00:56:15,719 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 1: going to have a conversation about it. And then you

990
00:56:18,239 --> 00:56:23,200
Speaker 1: come to Catherine and she's just dissociated, so you can

991
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:25,839
Speaker 1: see that she wants to stop it. I was very

992
00:56:25,920 --> 00:56:31,040
Speaker 1: encouraged by how open she is to taking risks, even

993
00:56:31,120 --> 00:56:34,839
Speaker 1: though it scares her. She's very interested in trying something new.

994
00:56:34,880 --> 00:56:36,560
Speaker 1: She's gotten to the point where she said, this is

995
00:56:36,640 --> 00:56:39,200
Speaker 1: very exhausting. I don't want to live this way. This

996
00:56:39,239 --> 00:56:42,440
Speaker 1: is emotionally draining, and so I really hope that the

997
00:56:42,680 --> 00:56:44,799
Speaker 1: assignment we gave her will help her not only to

998
00:56:45,440 --> 00:56:48,279
Speaker 1: feel more seen and heard around her experiences, but also

999
00:56:48,400 --> 00:56:51,480
Speaker 1: opens her up to the positive experiences. We always say

1000
00:56:51,480 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 1: that if you're going to mute the pain, you're going

1001
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:55,920
Speaker 1: to mute the joy, and I think that's what's happened here.

1002
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 1: When her husband says I appreciate you, she says, well,

1003
00:56:58,080 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 1: we have a nice life together. So I think it'll

1004
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:03,400
Speaker 1: be really interesting to see how these exercises go this

1005
00:57:03,480 --> 00:57:10,360
Speaker 1: week and what kind of shifts she can make from them.

1006
00:57:10,680 --> 00:57:13,800
Speaker 2: You're listening to dea therapists. We'll be back after a

1007
00:57:13,840 --> 00:57:14,440
Speaker 2: short break.

1008
00:57:26,880 --> 00:57:27,240
Speaker 3: So guy.

1009
00:57:27,280 --> 00:57:30,000
Speaker 1: We heard back from Catherine and let's hear how her

1010
00:57:30,040 --> 00:57:30,480
Speaker 1: week went.

1011
00:57:31,680 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 3: Hello, Assignment number one. My husband was very touched to

1012
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 3: hear my letter. He listened and cried at times. While

1013
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:40,440
Speaker 3: he knows how hard it is for me to express

1014
00:57:40,480 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 3: my feelings, they really felt as if I saw him. Overall,

1015
00:57:44,600 --> 00:57:47,680
Speaker 3: he was very supportive and cited my kindness and the

1016
00:57:47,680 --> 00:57:50,480
Speaker 3: fact that I reached out to your program the signs

1017
00:57:50,520 --> 00:57:54,000
Speaker 3: that despite having had an unhappy childhood, I still want

1018
00:57:54,040 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 3: to treat others and myself well and want to find

1019
00:57:56,720 --> 00:57:59,640
Speaker 3: a deeper understanding about my childhood so I can have

1020
00:57:59,720 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 3: better relationships. We had a great conversation that lasted about

1021
00:58:03,400 --> 00:58:06,400
Speaker 3: an hour. I didn't blank out, but I do feel

1022
00:58:06,400 --> 00:58:08,800
Speaker 3: that because it was just a lot to process, I

1023
00:58:08,840 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 3: will remember more about it in the coming days. It

1024
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:15,440
Speaker 3: was a very positive and loving experience, and my husband

1025
00:58:15,440 --> 00:58:17,919
Speaker 3: noted at the end that he doesn't doubt my love

1026
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 3: for him, but he would like it if I expressed

1027
00:58:20,120 --> 00:58:23,120
Speaker 3: that love more, which having heard that from him, I

1028
00:58:23,160 --> 00:58:26,360
Speaker 3: will do for me. The atmosphere was sort of charged

1029
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:29,960
Speaker 3: in a very unfamiliar but I think positive way, and

1030
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:34,400
Speaker 3: my body felt relaxed for assignment too. Speaking with my friend,

1031
00:58:34,960 --> 00:58:37,440
Speaker 3: it certainly felt unfamiliar to pick up the phone and

1032
00:58:37,480 --> 00:58:40,760
Speaker 3: call her. We chatted for a few minutes, and then

1033
00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 3: I asked her if she had the experience of seeing

1034
00:58:43,440 --> 00:58:47,280
Speaker 3: her childhood in a way that significantly differed from her siblings.

1035
00:58:47,560 --> 00:58:50,400
Speaker 3: I could hear the surprise in her voice, maybe because

1036
00:58:50,440 --> 00:58:52,880
Speaker 3: we text far more often than speak on the phone,

1037
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:56,120
Speaker 3: but she answered my question openly. We laughed at parts

1038
00:58:56,120 --> 00:58:59,040
Speaker 3: and we commiserated at others, and I felt a connection

1039
00:58:59,160 --> 00:59:01,800
Speaker 3: through that. I'll see her soon, and I'm going to

1040
00:59:01,800 --> 00:59:04,360
Speaker 3: tell her how much I enjoyed that conversation, and that

1041
00:59:04,480 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 3: I think about our friendship a lot. Assignment three. Writing

1042
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:10,360
Speaker 3: the letter to my mom, but reading it to my husband,

1043
00:59:10,840 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 3: this letter came flowing out of me. I noted how

1044
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,680
Speaker 3: she could see my father's ragey behavior dictating the atmosphere

1045
00:59:17,760 --> 00:59:20,240
Speaker 3: of almost everything in the house, and how that left

1046
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:23,320
Speaker 3: very little room for anyone to safely express their feelings.

1047
00:59:23,800 --> 00:59:26,080
Speaker 3: I wish that she could have taken me aside, somewhere

1048
00:59:26,120 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 3: safe to have these conversations, if only to say, you

1049
00:59:29,640 --> 00:59:32,400
Speaker 3: may not feel comfortable speaking with your dad around, but

1050
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:35,040
Speaker 3: we need to do it for your sake and your benefit.

1051
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:38,360
Speaker 3: My mom has often said that she's so thankful that

1052
00:59:38,400 --> 00:59:41,040
Speaker 3: I've never had something terrible happen to me. But I

1053
00:59:41,080 --> 00:59:43,440
Speaker 3: wrote to her that although I look okay, they are

1054
00:59:43,440 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 3: hollow parts inside, and she had a role in that.

1055
00:59:47,320 --> 00:59:49,480
Speaker 3: My mom often spent time with her best friend, with

1056
00:59:49,520 --> 00:59:52,360
Speaker 3: whom she had a deep friendship. She got to escape

1057
00:59:52,360 --> 00:59:55,720
Speaker 3: my father, and she had a confidant to discuss his behavior.

1058
00:59:56,240 --> 00:59:59,440
Speaker 3: But I realized last week after our talk that she

1059
00:59:59,480 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 3: didn't provide that escape for me, and that's a real

1060
01:00:02,200 --> 01:00:05,480
Speaker 3: failure on her part. Reading this letter, I noted I

1061
01:00:05,560 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 3: kept crossing my arms. I felt flat while I was

1062
01:00:08,240 --> 01:00:10,960
Speaker 3: reading it, but less so when I discussed it with

1063
01:00:11,000 --> 01:00:13,640
Speaker 3: my husband. We agreed that if I sent this letter

1064
01:00:13,640 --> 01:00:16,360
Speaker 3: to my mom, she would never respond to it, so

1065
01:00:16,520 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 3: fixed is she on only seeing good things. I feel

1066
01:00:19,960 --> 01:00:22,800
Speaker 3: very thankful to have had these three experiences. At the

1067
01:00:22,880 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 3: end of the day, the thoughts were right there, and

1068
01:00:24,760 --> 01:00:27,640
Speaker 3: I really didn't have a tough time expressing them. Made

1069
01:00:27,680 --> 01:00:30,720
Speaker 3: a couple interesting connections in my mind since talking with

1070
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:33,240
Speaker 3: you both. Most of all, I've taken from it that

1071
01:00:33,680 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 3: a conversation won't automatically scale up into a screaming match.

1072
01:00:37,440 --> 01:00:37,800
Speaker 3: Thank you.

1073
01:00:41,200 --> 01:00:43,800
Speaker 2: So let's start with that conversation with her husband where

1074
01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:48,400
Speaker 2: she read to him how she felt about him. That

1075
01:00:48,560 --> 01:00:52,800
Speaker 2: sounded like such a powerful moment for the two of them,

1076
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 2: and as we suspected, he really needed to hear it,

1077
01:00:56,960 --> 01:00:59,840
Speaker 2: and then he even asked for more of it thereafter,

1078
01:01:00,040 --> 01:01:03,320
Speaker 2: and he was so moved by it, And to me,

1079
01:01:03,480 --> 01:01:07,560
Speaker 2: that just confirms what we suspected that although she has

1080
01:01:07,640 --> 01:01:11,760
Speaker 2: these internal emotional experiences, they don't get expressed outwardly enough

1081
01:01:12,040 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 2: the good or the bad, as we said, and here

1082
01:01:14,640 --> 01:01:17,800
Speaker 2: the good wasn't coming across as overtly as it might.

1083
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 2: So hopefully this opens an entire new way for her

1084
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:24,680
Speaker 2: to communicate with her husband that will allow them much

1085
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:26,080
Speaker 2: more closeness as a result.

1086
01:01:26,920 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 1: I like what you said about the good and the

1087
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:31,360
Speaker 1: bad because I think sometimes when people are really afraid

1088
01:01:31,480 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 1: of sharing their feelings, they also aren't comfortable sharing the

1089
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:40,280
Speaker 1: positive feelings, and that really keeps a distance in a

1090
01:01:40,320 --> 01:01:43,160
Speaker 1: relationship even when the positive feelings are there. And I

1091
01:01:43,240 --> 01:01:45,840
Speaker 1: was so moved when he was able to tell her,

1092
01:01:45,920 --> 01:01:47,960
Speaker 1: and it sounds like in a very gentle, loving way,

1093
01:01:48,400 --> 01:01:51,080
Speaker 1: I would like more of this, I think that will

1094
01:01:51,080 --> 01:01:54,120
Speaker 1: bring them so much closer, and I think she will

1095
01:01:54,160 --> 01:01:59,400
Speaker 1: get more as well from the reciprocity that's going to

1096
01:01:59,400 --> 01:01:59,800
Speaker 1: come from this.

1097
01:02:00,880 --> 01:02:04,520
Speaker 2: The second assignment that was a little confused, to be honest,

1098
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:07,240
Speaker 2: what we asked her to do was share something about

1099
01:02:07,320 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 2: herself with her friend, whatever it is, and make sure

1100
01:02:10,760 --> 01:02:13,640
Speaker 2: that her friends can stay on her, rather than revert

1101
01:02:13,760 --> 01:02:17,160
Speaker 2: the conversation back to the friend's feelings or needs. So

1102
01:02:17,200 --> 01:02:19,400
Speaker 2: she said she brought up this question about whether she

1103
01:02:19,640 --> 01:02:22,880
Speaker 2: or siblings had different perceptions. If she then followed that

1104
01:02:23,000 --> 01:02:26,000
Speaker 2: question with because for me, and she spoke about herself

1105
01:02:26,080 --> 01:02:29,600
Speaker 2: and the friend listened, great, But if she just asked

1106
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:31,880
Speaker 2: a friend to do that, then there was a miss

1107
01:02:31,880 --> 01:02:33,880
Speaker 2: in terms of the point of that assignment, and I'm

1108
01:02:33,920 --> 01:02:34,800
Speaker 2: just not sure which it is.

1109
01:02:35,200 --> 01:02:37,400
Speaker 1: There was something else that was interesting in her update,

1110
01:02:37,440 --> 01:02:39,560
Speaker 1: which was that her mom had this confidant that she

1111
01:02:39,600 --> 01:02:43,880
Speaker 1: would go to to complain about Catherine's dad too, And

1112
01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 1: it sounds a little bit like a mirror of Catherine's

1113
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:51,120
Speaker 1: friend coming to Catherine to complain about the friend's husband,

1114
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:53,800
Speaker 1: And I think that some of the resentment might be

1115
01:02:53,920 --> 01:02:57,960
Speaker 1: wrapped up in that parallel dynamic. That's going on that

1116
01:02:58,000 --> 01:03:00,720
Speaker 1: we hadn't heard about during session, So it's just another

1117
01:03:00,760 --> 01:03:03,600
Speaker 1: thing for Catherine to think about as she thinks about

1118
01:03:04,040 --> 01:03:07,080
Speaker 1: what the source of her anger and resentment really are

1119
01:03:07,480 --> 01:03:09,840
Speaker 1: when it comes to this friend and her husband.

1120
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:12,959
Speaker 2: Right her third assignment, writing the letter to her mother,

1121
01:03:13,240 --> 01:03:15,760
Speaker 2: I was glad to hear that she was commenting on

1122
01:03:16,440 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 2: how she feels hollow internally and that her mother has

1123
01:03:19,720 --> 01:03:22,520
Speaker 2: something directly to do with that, and wishing her mother

1124
01:03:22,640 --> 01:03:26,880
Speaker 2: had taken her aside and legitimized conversations and talking about

1125
01:03:26,920 --> 01:03:30,120
Speaker 2: feelings with her. I think those were very important things.

1126
01:03:30,440 --> 01:03:32,400
Speaker 1: And I think the important part of this too was

1127
01:03:32,440 --> 01:03:34,800
Speaker 1: being able to share it so it's not just something

1128
01:03:34,800 --> 01:03:37,600
Speaker 1: that she is holding inside, because I think that's where

1129
01:03:37,600 --> 01:03:41,320
Speaker 1: all of those letters were coming from. And we always

1130
01:03:41,360 --> 01:03:43,640
Speaker 1: say choose your audience well in terms of who you're

1131
01:03:43,680 --> 01:03:46,880
Speaker 1: going to share yourself with in a very vulnerable way,

1132
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:49,680
Speaker 1: and her husband was it sounds like a great audience.

1133
01:03:49,760 --> 01:03:51,800
Speaker 1: I also think about that friend who lives in another

1134
01:03:51,840 --> 01:03:55,040
Speaker 1: city that she also feels very close to, and one

1135
01:03:55,040 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 1: of the things we also wanted her to do was

1136
01:03:56,800 --> 01:04:01,840
Speaker 1: to see about cultivating friendships that feel better to her,

1137
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:05,520
Speaker 1: and I think that the exercises that we gave her

1138
01:04:05,680 --> 01:04:09,480
Speaker 1: our first step to cultivating all kinds of relationships, including

1139
01:04:09,480 --> 01:04:13,240
Speaker 1: a closer relationship with her husband, a better relationship with

1140
01:04:13,360 --> 01:04:16,840
Speaker 1: her friend, and maybe cultivating other friendships and mostly a

1141
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:18,680
Speaker 1: better relationship with herself.

1142
01:04:19,480 --> 01:04:21,720
Speaker 2: I agree, and so I think that in the one week,

1143
01:04:22,240 --> 01:04:26,440
Speaker 2: she's taken quite a few steps and gone quite a journey.

1144
01:04:26,600 --> 01:04:28,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, as you said, it's an opening, and I think

1145
01:04:28,480 --> 01:04:34,600
Speaker 1: it's a fantastic place to start. Next week, a woman

1146
01:04:34,600 --> 01:04:37,560
Speaker 1: who loves her husband worries about his anger toward their

1147
01:04:37,640 --> 01:04:40,640
Speaker 1: young children and considers whether she should leave him to

1148
01:04:40,680 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 1: protect them.

1149
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:44,880
Speaker 3: It's not healthy for our daughter. You need to get

1150
01:04:44,920 --> 01:04:46,920
Speaker 3: therapy or we're going to leave so that I can

1151
01:04:46,960 --> 01:04:47,680
Speaker 3: protect her.

1152
01:04:48,000 --> 01:04:51,080
Speaker 1: If you're enjoying our podcast, don't forget to subscribe for

1153
01:04:51,160 --> 01:04:54,000
Speaker 1: free so that you don't miss any episodes, and please

1154
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:56,840
Speaker 1: help support Dear Therapists by telling your friends about it

1155
01:04:56,960 --> 01:05:00,320
Speaker 1: and leaving a review on Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really

1156
01:05:00,320 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 1: help people to find the show.

1157
01:05:01,760 --> 01:05:04,000
Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us,

1158
01:05:04,280 --> 01:05:09,320
Speaker 2: email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia dot com.

1159
01:05:09,480 --> 01:05:13,720
Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited

1160
01:05:13,800 --> 01:05:19,040
Speaker 2: by Josh Fisher, additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John Washington,

1161
01:05:19,440 --> 01:05:24,240
Speaker 2: and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily Gutierrez

1162
01:05:24,520 --> 01:05:28,200
Speaker 2: and Silver Lifton. And special thanks to our podcast Fairy

1163
01:05:28,240 --> 01:05:31,360
Speaker 2: Godmother Katie Curic. We can't wait to see you at

1164
01:05:31,400 --> 01:05:44,320
Speaker 2: our next session. Deotherapist is a production of iHeartRadio.