1 00:01:09,359 --> 00:01:12,439 Speaker 1: Hey to your Therapist listeners. It's Lori and Guy and 2 00:01:12,479 --> 00:01:13,599 Speaker 1: we have a quick update. 3 00:01:13,839 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 2: Many of you have told us that you get something 4 00:01:16,079 --> 00:01:18,439 Speaker 2: new out of each episode when you listen to it 5 00:01:18,479 --> 00:01:21,719 Speaker 2: again the second or third time. In fact, when we 6 00:01:21,839 --> 00:01:24,799 Speaker 2: listen to the episodes again, we also get takeaways we 7 00:01:24,799 --> 00:01:25,439 Speaker 2: didn't remember. 8 00:01:25,439 --> 00:01:28,079 Speaker 1: We're They're therapy is like that too. There are so 9 00:01:28,199 --> 00:01:30,839 Speaker 1: many learning moments in a session, and it's difficult to 10 00:01:30,919 --> 00:01:33,439 Speaker 1: absorb them all at once. So while we're not taping 11 00:01:33,559 --> 00:01:37,039 Speaker 1: new episodes right now, we are offering you our most 12 00:01:37,079 --> 00:01:40,399 Speaker 1: popular sessions as encores so that you can continue to 13 00:01:40,439 --> 00:01:41,519 Speaker 1: gain value from them. 14 00:01:41,759 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 2: We love doing the Therapists episodes, but we're each busy 15 00:01:45,359 --> 00:01:48,199 Speaker 2: with new and exciting projects that we hope you will 16 00:01:48,199 --> 00:01:49,239 Speaker 2: love just as much. 17 00:01:49,479 --> 00:01:52,679 Speaker 1: I have a new advice podcast called Since You Asked, 18 00:01:52,799 --> 00:01:55,159 Speaker 1: which you can get wherever you listen to podcasts. 19 00:01:55,359 --> 00:01:58,159 Speaker 2: And I have a new book coming out. It's called 20 00:01:58,559 --> 00:02:03,559 Speaker 2: Mind Overgrind, How to Break Free when work Hijacks your life, 21 00:02:03,759 --> 00:02:06,519 Speaker 2: and it will be published by Simon and Schuster. You 22 00:02:06,559 --> 00:02:08,759 Speaker 2: can find out more about it on my website. 23 00:02:10,319 --> 00:02:13,519 Speaker 1: You can learn more about these on our socials. And meanwhile, 24 00:02:13,719 --> 00:02:16,639 Speaker 1: we hope you find these Dear Therapist sessions as valuable 25 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:23,039 Speaker 1: as we have making them for you. I'm Laurie Gottlieb. 26 00:02:23,399 --> 00:02:25,519 Speaker 1: I'm the author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone, 27 00:02:25,799 --> 00:02:28,679 Speaker 1: and I write the Dear Therapist advice column for The Atlantic. 28 00:02:29,199 --> 00:02:32,399 Speaker 2: And I'm Guy Wench. I'm the author of Emotional First Aid, 29 00:02:32,719 --> 00:02:34,919 Speaker 2: and I write the Dear Guy advice column for Ted. 30 00:02:35,319 --> 00:02:37,079 Speaker 2: And this is Dear Therapists. 31 00:02:37,679 --> 00:02:40,119 Speaker 1: Each week we invite you into a real session where 32 00:02:40,119 --> 00:02:42,879 Speaker 1: we help people confront their biggest problems and then give 33 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:45,759 Speaker 1: them actionable advice and hear about the changes they've made 34 00:02:45,759 --> 00:02:46,479 Speaker 1: in their lives. 35 00:02:46,799 --> 00:02:49,439 Speaker 2: So sit back and welcome to today's session. 36 00:02:50,719 --> 00:02:54,359 Speaker 1: This week, a woman who has elaborate revenge fantasies about 37 00:02:54,399 --> 00:02:56,839 Speaker 1: the people in her life wants to understand why she 38 00:02:56,959 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 1: does this and how she can stop. 39 00:02:59,479 --> 00:03:02,959 Speaker 3: I have no training and how to have a positive conversation. 40 00:03:03,679 --> 00:03:06,759 Speaker 3: I think it feels shameful as a grown woman that 41 00:03:06,879 --> 00:03:10,599 Speaker 3: I can't defend myself. So I take all a butt 42 00:03:10,679 --> 00:03:13,439 Speaker 3: hurt and I channel it towards these letters. 43 00:03:13,799 --> 00:03:17,719 Speaker 2: First. A quick note deotherapists is for informational purposes only, 44 00:03:17,959 --> 00:03:21,119 Speaker 2: does not constitute medical or psychological advice, and is not 45 00:03:21,159 --> 00:03:25,679 Speaker 2: a substitute for professional healthcare advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Always 46 00:03:25,679 --> 00:03:28,639 Speaker 2: seek the advice of your physician, mental health professional, or 47 00:03:28,679 --> 00:03:31,639 Speaker 2: other qualified health provider with any questions you may have 48 00:03:31,759 --> 00:03:35,519 Speaker 2: regarding a medical or psychological condition. By submitting a letter, 49 00:03:35,559 --> 00:03:37,599 Speaker 2: you are agreeing to let iHeart Media use it in 50 00:03:37,639 --> 00:03:39,879 Speaker 2: part or in full, and we may edit it for 51 00:03:39,959 --> 00:03:42,559 Speaker 2: length and clarity. In the sessions you'll hear. All names 52 00:03:42,559 --> 00:03:44,919 Speaker 2: have been changed for the privacy of our guests. 53 00:03:46,959 --> 00:03:49,879 Speaker 1: So Hey Guy, Hi Laurie, what do we have going 54 00:03:49,919 --> 00:03:51,159 Speaker 1: on in our mailbox this week? 55 00:03:51,399 --> 00:03:56,359 Speaker 2: Today we have a rather interesting letter which I will 56 00:03:56,399 --> 00:04:00,279 Speaker 2: just read and you will see why. Deo therapists, I 57 00:04:00,359 --> 00:04:02,959 Speaker 2: have an issue in which I feel a great compulsion 58 00:04:03,279 --> 00:04:06,639 Speaker 2: to write letters to people that are filled with scathing 59 00:04:06,719 --> 00:04:11,239 Speaker 2: criticisms or that bring up long bury events. I ambarrassed 60 00:04:11,239 --> 00:04:13,879 Speaker 2: to admit that I write these mostly to good friends, 61 00:04:14,199 --> 00:04:16,759 Speaker 2: and I even think about sending such letters to the 62 00:04:16,799 --> 00:04:19,559 Speaker 2: spouses of good friends that contain information that would be 63 00:04:19,679 --> 00:04:23,199 Speaker 2: highly damaging to the relationships at hand. I have never 64 00:04:23,239 --> 00:04:25,999 Speaker 2: sent these letters because I know they could potentially cause 65 00:04:26,039 --> 00:04:30,239 Speaker 2: great emotional and in some cases financial damage to my friends. 66 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:33,079 Speaker 2: But while I don't send these letters, I have to wonder, 67 00:04:33,519 --> 00:04:36,079 Speaker 2: why do I want to hurt other people? Some of 68 00:04:36,079 --> 00:04:38,879 Speaker 2: these people are friends of more than three decades. Am 69 00:04:38,919 --> 00:04:41,599 Speaker 2: I jealous of them? Do I feel abandoned when they 70 00:04:41,639 --> 00:04:44,159 Speaker 2: move and have their own families even though I am 71 00:04:44,159 --> 00:04:47,159 Speaker 2: married and have my own family too. Why do I 72 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:50,599 Speaker 2: weaponize certain things that were told to me in confidence? 73 00:04:51,319 --> 00:04:54,559 Speaker 2: It's upsetting to take delight in crafting these letters when 74 00:04:54,599 --> 00:04:57,119 Speaker 2: most friends have shown genuine support and love for me. 75 00:04:58,119 --> 00:05:01,079 Speaker 2: Thanks for any help, Catherine. 76 00:05:01,399 --> 00:05:04,639 Speaker 1: You know, this is really interesting because so many times 77 00:05:04,679 --> 00:05:08,679 Speaker 1: people come into our offices and they have these almost 78 00:05:08,919 --> 00:05:13,759 Speaker 1: confesss of things that they're very ashamed of. They feel 79 00:05:13,799 --> 00:05:16,519 Speaker 1: like they're very unique to them, and in this case 80 00:05:16,919 --> 00:05:20,639 Speaker 1: it is. But I think that what we discover when 81 00:05:20,639 --> 00:05:23,999 Speaker 1: we start exploring it with them is that whatever's going 82 00:05:24,079 --> 00:05:27,279 Speaker 1: on underneath it is probably pretty universal. 83 00:05:27,959 --> 00:05:31,319 Speaker 2: That's right. And in this case, what's going on underneath 84 00:05:31,599 --> 00:05:35,319 Speaker 2: is a lot of emotion. Clearly, she feels a lot 85 00:05:35,359 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 2: of these feelings and then writes letters to express these 86 00:05:38,719 --> 00:05:41,919 Speaker 2: feelings in some way. What's certainly not clear to me 87 00:05:42,039 --> 00:05:45,879 Speaker 2: yet is what are these feelings about? What's causing them 88 00:05:45,999 --> 00:05:48,359 Speaker 2: to come up? And it sounds like she's not entirely 89 00:05:48,399 --> 00:05:51,439 Speaker 2: sure why she does it either, and that's why she's 90 00:05:52,039 --> 00:05:52,959 Speaker 2: writing to us. 91 00:05:53,279 --> 00:05:55,599 Speaker 1: And I think that as she starts to understand more 92 00:05:55,639 --> 00:05:59,399 Speaker 1: about what this is, she will have more compassion for 93 00:05:59,439 --> 00:06:03,639 Speaker 1: herself and then also be able to hopefully start to 94 00:06:03,719 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: change the behavior. And so for anybody out there who 95 00:06:06,479 --> 00:06:08,559 Speaker 1: thinks that they have some kind of behavior that they're 96 00:06:08,559 --> 00:06:11,639 Speaker 1: embarrassed to share with anybody, this will probably be a 97 00:06:11,799 --> 00:06:13,079 Speaker 1: very helpful episode. 98 00:06:13,159 --> 00:06:14,199 Speaker 2: So let's go talk to her. 99 00:06:15,999 --> 00:06:19,119 Speaker 1: You're listening to Dear Therapists for my Heart Radio. We'll 100 00:06:19,119 --> 00:06:20,479 Speaker 1: be back after a short break. 101 00:06:26,999 --> 00:06:30,239 Speaker 2: I'm Lori Gottlieb and I'm Guy Wench and this is 102 00:06:30,319 --> 00:06:31,199 Speaker 2: Dear Therapists. 103 00:06:32,919 --> 00:06:35,679 Speaker 1: Hi, Catherine, Hello, thanks for coming on the show. 104 00:06:36,079 --> 00:06:37,079 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. 105 00:06:37,479 --> 00:06:40,759 Speaker 2: It's our pleasure. We read your letter, and I'm curious 106 00:06:40,799 --> 00:06:44,719 Speaker 2: to hear how this habit of writing these skating letters 107 00:06:45,079 --> 00:06:47,639 Speaker 2: that you don't send, how that started, when it started, 108 00:06:47,679 --> 00:06:49,719 Speaker 2: If you can give us a little context of how 109 00:06:49,799 --> 00:06:53,239 Speaker 2: that got going and the development of it throughout the years. 110 00:06:53,679 --> 00:06:56,799 Speaker 3: I think it started probably about ten years ago. The 111 00:06:56,919 --> 00:07:00,519 Speaker 3: first time I began to compose these letters. In my mind, 112 00:07:00,639 --> 00:07:04,959 Speaker 3: it was to one particular friend, and our relationship had 113 00:07:04,959 --> 00:07:09,079 Speaker 3: started to go through some rockiness, largely in part because 114 00:07:10,199 --> 00:07:12,839 Speaker 3: she has a spouse who was treating me quite poorly. 115 00:07:13,719 --> 00:07:17,479 Speaker 3: The friendship sort of it lessened, but we've remained good friends, 116 00:07:17,519 --> 00:07:20,879 Speaker 3: I would say, but it sort of started as a 117 00:07:20,879 --> 00:07:25,359 Speaker 3: way of addressing wasn't said between us, and I would 118 00:07:25,399 --> 00:07:29,799 Speaker 3: find myself waking up in the morning, and perhaps as 119 00:07:30,039 --> 00:07:33,439 Speaker 3: I was unloading the dishwasher or taking a shower, I 120 00:07:33,439 --> 00:07:36,919 Speaker 3: would begin to write these letters in my mind, either 121 00:07:36,999 --> 00:07:40,439 Speaker 3: to this friend or to her spouse. I've known this 122 00:07:40,839 --> 00:07:44,279 Speaker 3: friend for a long time, probably about thirty years now, 123 00:07:44,439 --> 00:07:48,479 Speaker 3: and in the course of that relationship, she shared a 124 00:07:48,519 --> 00:07:52,919 Speaker 3: lot of personal details about herself and her relationship with 125 00:07:52,959 --> 00:08:00,479 Speaker 3: her spouse, and I would use that information to write 126 00:08:00,479 --> 00:08:03,799 Speaker 3: fairly scathing letters in my mind. In my mind, I've 127 00:08:03,799 --> 00:08:07,559 Speaker 3: never sent anything, and I do it to other people too. 128 00:08:07,759 --> 00:08:10,199 Speaker 3: It would be a criticism of the way that they 129 00:08:10,319 --> 00:08:15,519 Speaker 3: raise their children, the way that they spend money. It's 130 00:08:15,639 --> 00:08:18,839 Speaker 3: just it's not healthy. I do it mainly for a 131 00:08:18,879 --> 00:08:22,639 Speaker 3: couple friends, but also if there are people in town 132 00:08:23,079 --> 00:08:27,239 Speaker 3: that I see that their children are treating other kids 133 00:08:27,319 --> 00:08:30,519 Speaker 3: terribly on the playground, I'll think about writing letters to 134 00:08:30,559 --> 00:08:34,959 Speaker 3: these people. It's almost become now something that's a part 135 00:08:34,959 --> 00:08:38,999 Speaker 3: of my daily habit, and I want to understand why 136 00:08:39,039 --> 00:08:42,399 Speaker 3: I'm doing this and what I can do to stop 137 00:08:42,439 --> 00:08:48,199 Speaker 3: doing it, because I'm so aware of it not being productive. 138 00:08:49,239 --> 00:08:53,479 Speaker 2: When you describe the first incident, you were upset because 139 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:55,999 Speaker 2: the husband was treating you poorly, and it was one 140 00:08:56,039 --> 00:08:58,519 Speaker 2: of the ways to kind of express your beef. But 141 00:08:58,559 --> 00:09:00,519 Speaker 2: you're saying that now it can happen with people you 142 00:09:00,639 --> 00:09:03,799 Speaker 2: don't know, people you just even see that you don't 143 00:09:03,799 --> 00:09:06,679 Speaker 2: have any personal stake in it, but it can activate 144 00:09:06,719 --> 00:09:09,239 Speaker 2: you sufficiently to want to do that. Are you will 145 00:09:09,319 --> 00:09:13,559 Speaker 2: aware in those moments of what you're feeling that's making 146 00:09:13,599 --> 00:09:14,919 Speaker 2: you think of writing the letter. 147 00:09:15,159 --> 00:09:19,359 Speaker 3: Yes, I'm aware of people who I believe are not 148 00:09:19,479 --> 00:09:23,519 Speaker 3: taking responsibility for their actions or responsibility for how their 149 00:09:23,599 --> 00:09:25,279 Speaker 3: children are acting towards others. 150 00:09:25,639 --> 00:09:28,959 Speaker 2: What's the feeling that you have in those moments? You 151 00:09:29,039 --> 00:09:31,039 Speaker 2: aware of what you're feeling in that moment. 152 00:09:31,359 --> 00:09:34,599 Speaker 3: I think it's angry at feeling mistreated or disrespected and 153 00:09:35,479 --> 00:09:40,119 Speaker 3: feeling like my friends are not sticking up for me 154 00:09:40,359 --> 00:09:42,359 Speaker 3: and saying to their spouse, hey, that's not right to 155 00:09:42,399 --> 00:09:44,799 Speaker 3: treat someone this way. I love this person and you're 156 00:09:44,919 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 3: being awful to them. 157 00:09:46,439 --> 00:09:50,199 Speaker 1: There seems to be a real thread of injustice throughout 158 00:09:50,239 --> 00:09:52,799 Speaker 1: these even when you see the kids that you don't 159 00:09:52,799 --> 00:09:55,559 Speaker 1: even know at the park who are being treated in 160 00:09:55,599 --> 00:09:57,719 Speaker 1: a way that feels unfair. 161 00:09:58,199 --> 00:10:01,199 Speaker 3: I do have a pretty strong sense of what is 162 00:10:01,279 --> 00:10:04,679 Speaker 3: right and what is wrong, but I'm also keenly aware 163 00:10:04,759 --> 00:10:08,319 Speaker 3: that not everyone has those same views. When I'm feeling 164 00:10:08,359 --> 00:10:11,319 Speaker 3: angry and I want to write these letters, it's a 165 00:10:11,319 --> 00:10:13,039 Speaker 3: way of, I guess, settling scores. 166 00:10:14,039 --> 00:10:18,039 Speaker 1: This sense of feeling misunderstood or feeling like you or 167 00:10:18,079 --> 00:10:21,159 Speaker 1: somebody else isn't being treated fairly. Was that something that 168 00:10:21,199 --> 00:10:23,839 Speaker 1: you felt growing up? Does it feel familiar at all? 169 00:10:23,879 --> 00:10:26,919 Speaker 3: It does. In my household, we really weren't allowed to 170 00:10:26,959 --> 00:10:30,519 Speaker 3: express ourselves and what was decided upon by my parents, 171 00:10:31,159 --> 00:10:34,119 Speaker 3: mostly my father. That was the rule, and there wasn't 172 00:10:34,119 --> 00:10:36,959 Speaker 3: a lot of leeway to plead your case, to think differently, 173 00:10:37,119 --> 00:10:40,159 Speaker 3: to express yourself differently. That just wasn't tolerated. 174 00:10:41,759 --> 00:10:42,759 Speaker 1: Do you have siblings. 175 00:10:42,879 --> 00:10:45,119 Speaker 3: I do. I have siblings, older and younger brother. 176 00:10:45,519 --> 00:10:47,239 Speaker 1: How did they react to that environment? 177 00:10:48,239 --> 00:10:52,239 Speaker 3: They took it as well. I mean, you know, to 178 00:10:52,319 --> 00:10:57,359 Speaker 3: be essentially iced out was just a really unpleasant feeling. 179 00:10:58,239 --> 00:11:01,399 Speaker 3: It could be a couple days of your parents not 180 00:11:01,519 --> 00:11:03,839 Speaker 3: talking to you. It could be feeling like you were 181 00:11:03,959 --> 00:11:08,159 Speaker 3: the odd man out in sort of an already not 182 00:11:08,319 --> 00:11:11,239 Speaker 3: terribly a motive. It was not fun. 183 00:11:12,279 --> 00:11:14,239 Speaker 2: That's what your parents would do if they're upset with you, 184 00:11:14,279 --> 00:11:16,399 Speaker 2: they would shun you, like ice you out. 185 00:11:16,799 --> 00:11:19,999 Speaker 3: Yes, my father would not speak to us for several days, 186 00:11:20,159 --> 00:11:23,719 Speaker 3: or my mother would write us letters and either leave 187 00:11:23,759 --> 00:11:26,359 Speaker 3: them on our bed, or sometimes she would even mail 188 00:11:26,399 --> 00:11:29,159 Speaker 3: them to us, just we were in the same house. 189 00:11:29,959 --> 00:11:31,959 Speaker 3: She would mail them to us, and you know she 190 00:11:31,999 --> 00:11:36,119 Speaker 3: would express her anger by writing these letters. 191 00:11:36,759 --> 00:11:39,399 Speaker 1: So you have been the recipient of the letters that 192 00:11:39,439 --> 00:11:42,799 Speaker 1: you compose in your mind, Yes I have. What were 193 00:11:42,799 --> 00:11:45,679 Speaker 1: the kinds of things that you would get iced out for. 194 00:11:45,999 --> 00:11:48,479 Speaker 3: Not bringing home perfect grades? 195 00:11:48,999 --> 00:11:51,159 Speaker 1: What would happen with the grades? Can you paint the 196 00:11:51,199 --> 00:11:51,719 Speaker 1: picture of that? 197 00:11:52,159 --> 00:11:56,959 Speaker 3: So if I did not bring home you know a's 198 00:11:57,079 --> 00:12:01,319 Speaker 3: or as it was just there was hell to bay. 199 00:12:02,079 --> 00:12:04,839 Speaker 3: This was in the eighties and the nineties, and you know, 200 00:12:04,959 --> 00:12:07,999 Speaker 3: if if we brought home a report card with anything 201 00:12:08,079 --> 00:12:10,799 Speaker 3: less than a's, it was it was ranting and raving 202 00:12:10,839 --> 00:12:14,359 Speaker 3: that America is going to be surpassed by this country. 203 00:12:14,399 --> 00:12:16,559 Speaker 3: America is going to be surpassed by that country and 204 00:12:16,599 --> 00:12:19,879 Speaker 3: we're not trying hard enough. There was never any question about, 205 00:12:20,119 --> 00:12:23,159 Speaker 3: well do you understand the material? Why are you getting 206 00:12:23,319 --> 00:12:25,599 Speaker 3: b pluses, as if there's anything wrong with that. 207 00:12:26,319 --> 00:12:29,599 Speaker 1: So you talked about them sending you letters, but it 208 00:12:29,599 --> 00:12:32,839 Speaker 1: sounds like they also directly expressed you their anger. 209 00:12:33,359 --> 00:12:35,599 Speaker 3: Yes, my mother would send me the letters. My father 210 00:12:35,639 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 3: would directly express the anger. 211 00:12:37,839 --> 00:12:41,239 Speaker 1: I'm curious, then, what were the letters about that you 212 00:12:41,319 --> 00:12:42,279 Speaker 1: received from your mother. 213 00:12:42,919 --> 00:12:45,639 Speaker 3: I have one specific incidence where she gave me a 214 00:12:45,759 --> 00:12:49,319 Speaker 3: jewelry box for Christmas, and I didn't particularly love the 215 00:12:49,399 --> 00:12:52,999 Speaker 3: jewelry box, and I put it underneath my dresser and 216 00:12:53,279 --> 00:12:55,919 Speaker 3: it stayed there for a couple months, and she must 217 00:12:55,959 --> 00:12:58,399 Speaker 3: have found it at some point, and it was dusty. 218 00:12:59,079 --> 00:13:01,599 Speaker 3: It wasn't broken, it wasn't used, it was just dusty. 219 00:13:02,399 --> 00:13:04,639 Speaker 3: And so that afternoon I came home and there was 220 00:13:04,639 --> 00:13:07,399 Speaker 3: a letter on my pillow just saying, you know, why 221 00:13:07,439 --> 00:13:09,279 Speaker 3: did you treat it like this? This was a gift 222 00:13:09,399 --> 00:13:12,039 Speaker 3: I gave to you, and I don't think it's acceptable 223 00:13:12,039 --> 00:13:13,679 Speaker 3: that you would treat something like that. 224 00:13:14,079 --> 00:13:15,759 Speaker 1: It sounds like she sent you a lot of letters 225 00:13:15,799 --> 00:13:18,799 Speaker 1: over the course of your childhood, did you ever respond 226 00:13:18,839 --> 00:13:21,839 Speaker 1: to them, or she would send you a letter and 227 00:13:21,959 --> 00:13:23,359 Speaker 1: the two of you would never speak of it. 228 00:13:23,359 --> 00:13:24,959 Speaker 3: It was more of the latter. I would never speak 229 00:13:24,999 --> 00:13:28,759 Speaker 3: of it, partially because I felt cowed by it, because 230 00:13:28,799 --> 00:13:31,719 Speaker 3: it wasn't her directly addressing me, and partly I thought 231 00:13:31,719 --> 00:13:33,319 Speaker 3: it was just ridiculous. 232 00:13:34,159 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 2: You know what's interesting to me in what your dad 233 00:13:37,039 --> 00:13:42,119 Speaker 2: said is the disproportionality of you not getting an A 234 00:13:42,519 --> 00:13:44,959 Speaker 2: and on your shoulders because of your lack of a 235 00:13:45,359 --> 00:13:48,639 Speaker 2: is the entire future of the American country. It wasn't 236 00:13:49,199 --> 00:13:51,999 Speaker 2: your future might be disappointing. It's about the whole country 237 00:13:51,999 --> 00:13:54,199 Speaker 2: now is on your shoulders. In other words, it's such 238 00:13:54,439 --> 00:14:00,559 Speaker 2: a disproportionate response that it really kind of set the 239 00:14:00,559 --> 00:14:03,839 Speaker 2: stage for you that it's okay to respond to these 240 00:14:03,919 --> 00:14:07,959 Speaker 2: kinds of things in a hugely disproportionate way and in 241 00:14:07,999 --> 00:14:11,799 Speaker 2: a way from your mind in which people can't answer. 242 00:14:12,599 --> 00:14:14,959 Speaker 2: So between the two of them, they're really teaching you 243 00:14:15,239 --> 00:14:19,039 Speaker 2: that when you feel slighted or upset or disappointed even 244 00:14:19,039 --> 00:14:21,599 Speaker 2: with someone, you get to respond in ways that are 245 00:14:21,639 --> 00:14:25,759 Speaker 2: not direct but very disproportionate, like burn the house down 246 00:14:25,839 --> 00:14:29,199 Speaker 2: kind of thing. And that's what you're describing that you 247 00:14:29,239 --> 00:14:31,279 Speaker 2: do in your letters. 248 00:14:31,799 --> 00:14:36,519 Speaker 3: Yeah, and I hadn't actually thought about that disproportional reaction, 249 00:14:37,519 --> 00:14:40,479 Speaker 3: but it's right there. It's braided right in with the letters. 250 00:14:40,839 --> 00:14:42,999 Speaker 1: Can you tell us what happened with your friend's husband 251 00:14:42,999 --> 00:14:46,559 Speaker 1: that started you on this process of writing these letters 252 00:14:46,559 --> 00:14:48,999 Speaker 1: that in your fantasy world you would send, but you don't. 253 00:14:49,359 --> 00:14:53,039 Speaker 3: From the time I met her fiance soon to be husband, 254 00:14:54,039 --> 00:14:58,039 Speaker 3: he was always very cold to me and very distant. He, 255 00:14:58,959 --> 00:15:04,199 Speaker 3: I believe, felt threatened by our friendship. And at their 256 00:15:04,719 --> 00:15:08,719 Speaker 3: wedding they had some issues and they had a fight 257 00:15:09,519 --> 00:15:15,279 Speaker 3: and it was very uncomfortable, and she had withdrawn to 258 00:15:16,239 --> 00:15:19,319 Speaker 3: a room and she didn't want to be with him, 259 00:15:20,159 --> 00:15:23,719 Speaker 3: and I tried to talk to him to go and 260 00:15:24,639 --> 00:15:27,119 Speaker 3: see her. It was their wedding night. It was a 261 00:15:27,159 --> 00:15:30,759 Speaker 3: beautiful wedding, and that was the most that I could 262 00:15:30,759 --> 00:15:34,079 Speaker 3: do to help her was to just say to him, Look, 263 00:15:34,119 --> 00:15:37,879 Speaker 3: your wife is waiting to talk to you. She's upset. 264 00:15:39,159 --> 00:15:41,959 Speaker 3: And all he would say to me was, oh, well, 265 00:15:41,959 --> 00:15:45,119 Speaker 3: you're very proper. Isn't it always important to have good manners? 266 00:15:46,559 --> 00:15:51,519 Speaker 3: And since I've at that point really seen him, it's 267 00:15:51,719 --> 00:15:55,839 Speaker 3: either been he cuts me short or makes a comment, 268 00:15:56,079 --> 00:16:01,319 Speaker 3: and I want to preserve the friendship with her, so 269 00:16:01,759 --> 00:16:06,399 Speaker 3: I really don't react. She'll tell me some terrible behavior 270 00:16:06,519 --> 00:16:10,959 Speaker 3: he's shown to her. I try not to react because 271 00:16:11,239 --> 00:16:13,839 Speaker 3: I get the sense she just wants to talk about it, 272 00:16:14,079 --> 00:16:18,479 Speaker 3: not necessarily get advice from me. So I can't point 273 00:16:18,479 --> 00:16:22,039 Speaker 3: to you a specific run in that we had. I 274 00:16:22,079 --> 00:16:24,479 Speaker 3: feel like from the beginning he just felt threatened by 275 00:16:24,519 --> 00:16:25,679 Speaker 3: me and by our friendship. 276 00:16:27,039 --> 00:16:30,119 Speaker 2: You're saying that he would just be cold and distant. 277 00:16:31,119 --> 00:16:35,039 Speaker 2: You're also describing that your dad's way of dealing with 278 00:16:35,239 --> 00:16:38,799 Speaker 2: conflict was to shun to not speak to you for 279 00:16:38,839 --> 00:16:42,479 Speaker 2: several days. Now, that's extremely painful when you live with 280 00:16:42,559 --> 00:16:45,319 Speaker 2: someone when they're icing you out, when they're shunning you, 281 00:16:45,959 --> 00:16:50,039 Speaker 2: it's an extremely painful form of rejection. And you're describing 282 00:16:50,079 --> 00:16:52,959 Speaker 2: here with this husband of the friend that he also 283 00:16:53,279 --> 00:16:57,559 Speaker 2: was just a bit shunning and distant and cold. Because 284 00:16:57,559 --> 00:17:01,479 Speaker 2: there's also something about your mum's letter writing that's so impersonal, 285 00:17:01,479 --> 00:17:03,519 Speaker 2: and that she's not coming to talk to you. She's 286 00:17:04,399 --> 00:17:07,119 Speaker 2: writing and even mailing a letter as if it's far away. 287 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:10,759 Speaker 2: There's something very distancing about that. I'm wondering whether that's 288 00:17:10,799 --> 00:17:14,039 Speaker 2: something that you're aware of that, you have a specific 289 00:17:14,479 --> 00:17:17,119 Speaker 2: history within reaction to it. 290 00:17:17,159 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 3: Could be I immediately notice it if I think that 291 00:17:19,759 --> 00:17:21,679 Speaker 3: someone isn't being polite to me, or if I think 292 00:17:21,719 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 3: someone's being disrespectful, I pick up on that, and all 293 00:17:25,479 --> 00:17:28,879 Speaker 3: of my senses in almost every other interaction following that, 294 00:17:29,839 --> 00:17:30,679 Speaker 3: are alert to it. 295 00:17:32,279 --> 00:17:35,999 Speaker 1: And your mother felt the same way. She was hyper 296 00:17:36,039 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 1: aware of perceived disrespect. And I say perceived because of 297 00:17:43,199 --> 00:17:47,159 Speaker 1: what you're describing, And so I wonder if it's hard 298 00:17:47,239 --> 00:17:52,599 Speaker 1: for you to sometimes know whether this really is disrespectful 299 00:17:52,839 --> 00:17:56,639 Speaker 1: or whether you feel like maybe I'm holding them to 300 00:17:56,719 --> 00:18:00,679 Speaker 1: a standard that's a little bit stringent like your mother did. 301 00:18:00,839 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 3: I think you're right that I think that there have 302 00:18:03,519 --> 00:18:07,839 Speaker 3: been some clear cut instances of disrespect. But also perhaps 303 00:18:07,919 --> 00:18:10,919 Speaker 3: I'm just I'm prime for it and I'm reading into 304 00:18:10,959 --> 00:18:14,719 Speaker 3: something differently. I think after about ten years of you know, 305 00:18:15,159 --> 00:18:18,479 Speaker 3: sort of coolness on his part, I've got it pretty 306 00:18:18,999 --> 00:18:22,239 Speaker 3: accurately sized up. But yeah, it could be that I'm 307 00:18:22,319 --> 00:18:24,799 Speaker 3: just I'm looking for it, or I'm interpreting it in 308 00:18:24,839 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 3: the wrong way. 309 00:18:25,839 --> 00:18:28,199 Speaker 1: You said that you're married with a family. Does that 310 00:18:28,279 --> 00:18:29,439 Speaker 1: mean that you also have children? 311 00:18:29,519 --> 00:18:29,919 Speaker 3: Yes, I do. 312 00:18:30,919 --> 00:18:31,599 Speaker 1: How old are your. 313 00:18:31,519 --> 00:18:34,559 Speaker 3: Children twelve, ten, and seven. 314 00:18:35,519 --> 00:18:37,959 Speaker 1: And you've been married for. 315 00:18:37,959 --> 00:18:38,959 Speaker 3: About fifteen years. 316 00:18:38,999 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 1: Now, does this come up in your relationships with your 317 00:18:43,919 --> 00:18:45,239 Speaker 1: husband or your children. 318 00:18:45,599 --> 00:18:49,239 Speaker 3: Well, yes, in the sense of I do get upset 319 00:18:49,279 --> 00:18:51,879 Speaker 3: when i have to ask my children to do something 320 00:18:51,919 --> 00:18:54,559 Speaker 3: and I'm asking them five and six times I've said 321 00:18:54,559 --> 00:18:56,479 Speaker 3: it to them before. I do not like feeling as 322 00:18:56,519 --> 00:18:57,959 Speaker 3: if I'm being ignored. 323 00:18:57,679 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: Because being ignored when you were growing up was extremely painful. 324 00:19:00,999 --> 00:19:04,039 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's kind of how I would characterize my whole 325 00:19:04,119 --> 00:19:06,919 Speaker 3: childhood my brothers included, is that it was we were 326 00:19:06,999 --> 00:19:11,759 Speaker 3: just kind of bouncing around and not really given the 327 00:19:11,839 --> 00:19:14,079 Speaker 3: space to express ourselves. 328 00:19:15,159 --> 00:19:18,279 Speaker 1: You're kind of smiling and laughing as you're saying this. 329 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:20,079 Speaker 1: Do you notice that? 330 00:19:20,199 --> 00:19:24,359 Speaker 3: Yeah? I do, because I don't necessarily think it's funny. 331 00:19:24,519 --> 00:19:26,319 Speaker 3: In fact, I don't think it's funny at all, But 332 00:19:27,119 --> 00:19:30,959 Speaker 3: I feel like it's just so interesting to me how 333 00:19:30,959 --> 00:19:35,239 Speaker 3: these patterns play out again and how certain things repeat themselves. 334 00:19:35,639 --> 00:19:39,319 Speaker 3: I fervently hope that I'm giving my girls more space 335 00:19:39,479 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 3: to express themselves and what I was given. 336 00:19:42,399 --> 00:19:44,359 Speaker 4: So with your children, you've talked about having some of 337 00:19:44,399 --> 00:19:47,279 Speaker 4: these times when you feel ignored by them, and how 338 00:19:47,359 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 4: much that triggers you what happens with your husband? 339 00:19:50,159 --> 00:19:52,439 Speaker 1: Have you ever felt ignored by him? Or what happens 340 00:19:52,479 --> 00:19:55,639 Speaker 1: when you feel disrespected or there's some kind of conflict 341 00:19:55,719 --> 00:19:56,999 Speaker 1: between the two of you. 342 00:19:56,999 --> 00:20:01,799 Speaker 3: No, my husband is incredibly open and a motive and 343 00:20:02,239 --> 00:20:05,319 Speaker 3: does such a wonderful job of touching in with me. 344 00:20:05,879 --> 00:20:10,079 Speaker 3: He's had a good deal of therapy and understands how 345 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,759 Speaker 3: to communicate. I am amazed at how he can talk 346 00:20:13,879 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 3: so beautifully to our daughters. I wish I had that. 347 00:20:17,119 --> 00:20:19,799 Speaker 3: I feel almost like, oh, I let him do a 348 00:20:19,839 --> 00:20:22,239 Speaker 3: lot of like the tough talk, I don't feel quite 349 00:20:22,239 --> 00:20:25,999 Speaker 3: as well equipped to do it. And he is just 350 00:20:26,639 --> 00:20:29,519 Speaker 3: he is a gem when it comes to conversations. 351 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,199 Speaker 1: Sometimes the letter in your head is a way to 352 00:20:32,279 --> 00:20:36,799 Speaker 1: kind of process all of these feelings, and it feels 353 00:20:36,919 --> 00:20:40,319 Speaker 1: very solitary because that's what you had to do growing up. 354 00:20:40,439 --> 00:20:43,319 Speaker 1: You really didn't have people to process your feelings with. 355 00:20:43,919 --> 00:20:46,679 Speaker 1: Even when your mom wrote those letters, you didn't go 356 00:20:46,759 --> 00:20:48,399 Speaker 1: then and talk to her about it or say I 357 00:20:48,439 --> 00:20:49,399 Speaker 1: feel differently. 358 00:20:49,079 --> 00:20:51,079 Speaker 3: About this, yeah. 359 00:20:51,119 --> 00:20:53,559 Speaker 1: And so now you have someone in your life that 360 00:20:53,639 --> 00:20:56,679 Speaker 1: you can talk to that way. And I'm wondering when 361 00:20:56,759 --> 00:20:59,919 Speaker 1: something comes up an incident happens where you feel slighted 362 00:20:59,919 --> 00:21:02,319 Speaker 1: by your friend's husband, or you see the kids being 363 00:21:02,359 --> 00:21:06,679 Speaker 1: mistreated at the park. Do you ever feel like if 364 00:21:06,719 --> 00:21:10,999 Speaker 1: I talk to my husband that that lessons the impulse 365 00:21:11,799 --> 00:21:14,079 Speaker 1: to need to then go ahead and write the letter. 366 00:21:14,479 --> 00:21:20,039 Speaker 3: Not really, And perhaps that's something I should do more of, 367 00:21:20,519 --> 00:21:24,599 Speaker 3: to sort of speak to someone about it. I think 368 00:21:24,639 --> 00:21:27,999 Speaker 3: something about me too, is that I really hold on 369 00:21:28,039 --> 00:21:32,199 Speaker 3: to grudges. I really hold on to perceive slights. It's 370 00:21:32,199 --> 00:21:36,479 Speaker 3: almost like it's a point of pride to keep going 371 00:21:36,559 --> 00:21:40,679 Speaker 3: over these unpleasant interactions I had with people as a 372 00:21:40,679 --> 00:21:43,319 Speaker 3: way of not I don't know, not forgetting, as a 373 00:21:43,319 --> 00:21:46,039 Speaker 3: way of saying, oh see, they're really bad they said 374 00:21:46,039 --> 00:21:47,559 Speaker 3: this to me or they did this to me. 375 00:21:48,199 --> 00:21:51,239 Speaker 2: The thing that strikes me about letter writing when we 376 00:21:51,279 --> 00:21:55,599 Speaker 2: don't send the letters is that there's a certain powerlessness 377 00:21:56,159 --> 00:22:00,719 Speaker 2: that comes with it. Because the powerlessness feeling is that 378 00:22:01,159 --> 00:22:04,039 Speaker 2: I can't address it with the person directly. I can't 379 00:22:04,039 --> 00:22:06,839 Speaker 2: actually get satisfaction. I can't tell them that I feel 380 00:22:06,839 --> 00:22:09,519 Speaker 2: slight If that's the case, the best I can do 381 00:22:10,039 --> 00:22:15,719 Speaker 2: is have a revenge fantasy in my head. But to me, 382 00:22:15,799 --> 00:22:20,239 Speaker 2: that is associated with feeling unempowered to actually have an 383 00:22:20,239 --> 00:22:24,479 Speaker 2: impact in the real world with a person themselves. Your 384 00:22:24,479 --> 00:22:27,399 Speaker 2: mother did something similar because she wasn't looking for a conversation. 385 00:22:27,479 --> 00:22:29,559 Speaker 2: She would have spoken to you if she was. She 386 00:22:29,639 --> 00:22:32,199 Speaker 2: was looking to just throw it out there and then 387 00:22:32,239 --> 00:22:35,159 Speaker 2: hope for the best. And I'm wondering about this aspect 388 00:22:35,279 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 2: of the feeling unempowered to address some of these lights 389 00:22:41,199 --> 00:22:44,919 Speaker 2: directly with the people who slighted you, And is that 390 00:22:45,039 --> 00:22:48,279 Speaker 2: something that you tend to do at all, And how 391 00:22:48,279 --> 00:22:50,239 Speaker 2: does that go when you try and actually have a 392 00:22:50,239 --> 00:22:51,319 Speaker 2: conversation people. 393 00:22:51,719 --> 00:22:55,359 Speaker 3: It's very awkward for me. It's very difficult. I feel 394 00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:59,879 Speaker 3: like when I have to have a difficult conversation with someone, 395 00:22:59,919 --> 00:23:03,719 Speaker 3: it's almost as if like I'm blanking out and I 396 00:23:03,759 --> 00:23:06,959 Speaker 3: have a hard time keeping track of the conversation or 397 00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:13,959 Speaker 3: making coherent points. Would attribute that to my father's anger 398 00:23:14,159 --> 00:23:16,959 Speaker 3: when we were growing up, and what a great volume, 399 00:23:17,119 --> 00:23:20,839 Speaker 3: there was no room for a conversation. I think a 400 00:23:20,919 --> 00:23:23,679 Speaker 3: difficult conversation like that now really cows me. 401 00:23:24,439 --> 00:23:27,919 Speaker 2: When you feel slighted or hurt or dismissed or ignored, 402 00:23:28,599 --> 00:23:32,559 Speaker 2: do you also then feel frustration because of the powerlessness 403 00:23:32,559 --> 00:23:35,799 Speaker 2: that you feel because you can't address it directly, so 404 00:23:35,879 --> 00:23:38,679 Speaker 2: you won't be able to get satisfaction that way. Does 405 00:23:38,759 --> 00:23:41,439 Speaker 2: that feeling stand out for you? 406 00:23:41,839 --> 00:23:44,999 Speaker 3: Yes, it does, because I know that it just sort 407 00:23:45,039 --> 00:23:48,759 Speaker 3: of goes on a hamster wheel of I feel affronted 408 00:23:48,799 --> 00:23:52,479 Speaker 3: by something, I'll write a letter. There's a slight release, 409 00:23:52,679 --> 00:23:55,279 Speaker 3: you know, the valve is twisted a little bit, and 410 00:23:55,319 --> 00:23:57,879 Speaker 3: then I'll ruminate on it again. So I write the 411 00:23:57,959 --> 00:24:00,399 Speaker 3: letter and it's a little bit more of vitriolic. It's 412 00:24:00,439 --> 00:24:04,839 Speaker 3: a treadmill, and it's exhausting and it's shameful. It's really 413 00:24:04,919 --> 00:24:07,239 Speaker 3: shameful that I do this to people that I love 414 00:24:07,319 --> 00:24:09,239 Speaker 3: and that have shown a great generosity to me. 415 00:24:10,239 --> 00:24:12,559 Speaker 2: Well, but you haven't done anything to them. From what 416 00:24:12,599 --> 00:24:15,679 Speaker 2: they know. You actually really pleasant because you never bring 417 00:24:15,759 --> 00:24:17,319 Speaker 2: up any issues, right. 418 00:24:17,159 --> 00:24:19,599 Speaker 3: And maybe I'm mad at myself that I'm not bringing 419 00:24:19,679 --> 00:24:22,519 Speaker 3: up these issues. That's probably a portion of it too. 420 00:24:23,439 --> 00:24:28,119 Speaker 1: You mentioned resentment, and I'm thinking about what Guy was 421 00:24:28,159 --> 00:24:32,239 Speaker 1: saying about how it really fuels more resentment. The way 422 00:24:32,279 --> 00:24:36,119 Speaker 1: that you ruminate you think about it, it gets bigger, 423 00:24:36,199 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 1: not smaller for you. And the more emotional real estate 424 00:24:40,719 --> 00:24:43,399 Speaker 1: that you devote to this, the more land it takes 425 00:24:43,439 --> 00:24:48,359 Speaker 1: up in your mind, because it doesn't really feel satisfying. 426 00:24:48,359 --> 00:24:49,159 Speaker 1: It doesn't really go. 427 00:24:49,159 --> 00:24:51,999 Speaker 3: Anywhere, right, it really doesn't. 428 00:24:52,239 --> 00:24:56,839 Speaker 1: We think about resentment almost counterintuitively as related to grieving, 429 00:24:57,679 --> 00:25:00,239 Speaker 1: that sometimes when we carry around a lot of resentment 430 00:25:00,319 --> 00:25:04,919 Speaker 1: towards someone, what we're really resisting is doing some grieving 431 00:25:05,159 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 1: of maybe I'm going to have to let go of something, 432 00:25:08,959 --> 00:25:10,759 Speaker 1: or maybe I'm going to lose this. 433 00:25:11,799 --> 00:25:15,439 Speaker 4: Maybe I can't have this kind of closeness in the 434 00:25:15,479 --> 00:25:16,639 Speaker 4: way that I want to have it. 435 00:25:17,039 --> 00:25:21,879 Speaker 1: So we hold the resentment thinking that it's empowering, but 436 00:25:21,999 --> 00:25:24,879 Speaker 1: in fact it's disempowering. And I don't think that you 437 00:25:24,919 --> 00:25:27,199 Speaker 1: see a third way, which is is there a way 438 00:25:27,959 --> 00:25:31,159 Speaker 1: that I can get more acquainted with what I'm feeling, 439 00:25:31,399 --> 00:25:35,279 Speaker 1: get more clarity on it, have some perspective on it, 440 00:25:35,599 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: and then be able to pick and choose what I 441 00:25:38,199 --> 00:25:41,199 Speaker 1: approach my friend about. Once I have more clarity about 442 00:25:41,239 --> 00:25:43,799 Speaker 1: what is historical and what is current, what is something 443 00:25:43,879 --> 00:25:47,399 Speaker 1: that's getting magnified because of my experience as a child, 444 00:25:47,599 --> 00:25:51,599 Speaker 1: and what is something that is really very present right now. 445 00:25:53,119 --> 00:25:56,679 Speaker 1: And those kinds of conversations could very well bring you 446 00:25:56,759 --> 00:25:59,879 Speaker 1: more closeness and not have you feel the need to 447 00:26:00,479 --> 00:26:03,279 Speaker 1: rehearse all of these scenarios in your head. 448 00:26:03,999 --> 00:26:06,519 Speaker 3: To say that word rehearsal is just so spot on. 449 00:26:06,639 --> 00:26:10,839 Speaker 3: I find myself having these convers where I'm almost trying 450 00:26:10,839 --> 00:26:13,519 Speaker 3: to prepare for almost comeback, and it's like, why are 451 00:26:13,559 --> 00:26:16,679 Speaker 3: you rehearsing a conversation that hasn't taken place. 452 00:26:16,879 --> 00:26:18,839 Speaker 1: It sounds like what you're doing is you're presenting your 453 00:26:18,839 --> 00:26:22,479 Speaker 1: case in court. Yeah, and there's a jury that's there 454 00:26:22,479 --> 00:26:25,759 Speaker 1: in your head and you're trying to convince them. And 455 00:26:25,799 --> 00:26:29,559 Speaker 1: the problem is that really the courtroom is empty. But 456 00:26:29,639 --> 00:26:32,079 Speaker 1: we do that all the time. It's so common where 457 00:26:32,159 --> 00:26:34,479 Speaker 1: something happens in our lives and we have all these 458 00:26:34,479 --> 00:26:36,799 Speaker 1: fantasies about what we'd like to say and why the 459 00:26:36,839 --> 00:26:39,679 Speaker 1: other person was wrong and why we deserve to be 460 00:26:39,719 --> 00:26:43,479 Speaker 1: treated this way, and often we don't tell the other person, 461 00:26:43,639 --> 00:26:46,079 Speaker 1: but we're trying to prove our case in our head, 462 00:26:46,879 --> 00:26:48,439 Speaker 1: and that is not very satisfying. 463 00:26:49,159 --> 00:26:51,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, I think at the heart of the matter, what 464 00:26:51,399 --> 00:26:54,639 Speaker 3: it is is what you said. It's that there's a 465 00:26:54,679 --> 00:26:58,239 Speaker 3: closeness that I'm longing for that has disappeared since she 466 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:01,999 Speaker 3: married this person. And I know logically, friendships they wax 467 00:27:02,039 --> 00:27:04,839 Speaker 3: and they wane, But I really miss that friendship of 468 00:27:04,879 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 3: how we used to be before this person showed up. 469 00:27:08,959 --> 00:27:10,919 Speaker 3: And I know I can't ask her to throw away 470 00:27:10,919 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 3: your husband. That's not reasonable. 471 00:27:12,679 --> 00:27:14,799 Speaker 1: But there's a lot in between asking her to throw 472 00:27:14,799 --> 00:27:18,079 Speaker 1: away her husband and not having closeness with her. 473 00:27:18,479 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 2: Right because right now you're the one that's creating the 474 00:27:22,479 --> 00:27:26,239 Speaker 2: distance because when you write these letters to her and 475 00:27:26,319 --> 00:27:28,999 Speaker 2: to her husband, and as Lori said, when you take 476 00:27:29,039 --> 00:27:31,879 Speaker 2: the case to court, to the empty court, because unfairness 477 00:27:31,919 --> 00:27:33,919 Speaker 2: is what makes us do that. We want to get 478 00:27:33,999 --> 00:27:36,559 Speaker 2: validation that things are unfair. So we prepare in our 479 00:27:36,599 --> 00:27:38,159 Speaker 2: head the case that we will present the court in 480 00:27:38,239 --> 00:27:41,319 Speaker 2: which will be ruled, and indeed, something unfair was done 481 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,639 Speaker 2: to us, and there's our validation because we're not getting 482 00:27:43,679 --> 00:27:47,559 Speaker 2: it anywhere else. But when you do that, the anger 483 00:27:47,599 --> 00:27:50,719 Speaker 2: and resentment towards the husband and towards her for having 484 00:27:50,759 --> 00:27:55,119 Speaker 2: that husband does create a distance emotionally between you and her. 485 00:27:55,159 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 2: But that's coming from you, which you then have to 486 00:27:57,959 --> 00:28:01,479 Speaker 2: overcome that distance whenever you're together or talking with her 487 00:28:01,599 --> 00:28:03,679 Speaker 2: to be able to reconnect, and so it makes the 488 00:28:03,719 --> 00:28:07,839 Speaker 2: friendship less satisfying for you. Yeah, In other words, you're 489 00:28:07,839 --> 00:28:10,519 Speaker 2: the one that actually pays the price rather than her 490 00:28:10,679 --> 00:28:11,439 Speaker 2: or her husband. 491 00:28:11,679 --> 00:28:14,959 Speaker 3: And that's exactly how I would characterize a friendship. But 492 00:28:15,319 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 3: you know, we see each other sporadically. It's by his 493 00:28:17,759 --> 00:28:20,519 Speaker 3: high high kiss, kiss, a quick lunch, and then it 494 00:28:20,639 --> 00:28:24,639 Speaker 3: feels pretty empty. Again. It's not satisfying. 495 00:28:24,959 --> 00:28:28,559 Speaker 2: Because it's hard to have connective tissue in conversation with 496 00:28:28,599 --> 00:28:32,359 Speaker 2: someone Toward him, you're holding so many grudges and resentments 497 00:28:32,399 --> 00:28:35,599 Speaker 2: and history. It's hard to open up to feel vulnerable 498 00:28:35,679 --> 00:28:38,559 Speaker 2: because there's so much stuff in the way. 499 00:28:39,399 --> 00:28:43,999 Speaker 1: Yeah, you said that you're very uncomfortable bringing up difficult 500 00:28:44,279 --> 00:28:47,479 Speaker 1: topics with people. Can you do that with your husband? 501 00:28:47,959 --> 00:28:51,999 Speaker 3: Yes? I can. I don't very often, but I know 502 00:28:52,079 --> 00:28:54,559 Speaker 3: I can. I know he would make space for me. 503 00:28:54,679 --> 00:28:58,639 Speaker 3: I know he would hear just about anything and really 504 00:28:58,679 --> 00:29:00,239 Speaker 3: try to approach it with an open mind. 505 00:29:01,079 --> 00:29:03,319 Speaker 1: You're saying that he would as if you imagine that, 506 00:29:03,479 --> 00:29:05,719 Speaker 1: like the letters that you write, you imagine a scenario. 507 00:29:05,879 --> 00:29:08,799 Speaker 1: But I'd like to hear if you have had a 508 00:29:08,799 --> 00:29:11,679 Speaker 1: difficult conversation with him that you brought up, and can 509 00:29:11,719 --> 00:29:12,479 Speaker 1: you tell us about that. 510 00:29:14,319 --> 00:29:18,839 Speaker 3: You know we don't fight terribly often. If we have 511 00:29:19,039 --> 00:29:22,759 Speaker 3: a tough topic to discuss it's my husband who brings 512 00:29:22,759 --> 00:29:24,799 Speaker 3: it up. He's really the one that sort of leads 513 00:29:24,799 --> 00:29:29,559 Speaker 3: that conversation. I often feel so like my hands and 514 00:29:29,679 --> 00:29:32,799 Speaker 3: arms are cut off when it's a difficult conversation. And 515 00:29:32,919 --> 00:29:36,519 Speaker 3: he's helpful, never in a way that's like he's telling 516 00:29:36,559 --> 00:29:38,159 Speaker 3: me what I think or what I feel. But I 517 00:29:38,199 --> 00:29:42,799 Speaker 3: find him very helpful to help me articulate things. But 518 00:29:42,999 --> 00:29:45,199 Speaker 3: to answer your question, Laurie, I can't say that I've 519 00:29:45,239 --> 00:29:47,559 Speaker 3: ever brought up a difficult conversation. 520 00:29:48,759 --> 00:29:52,079 Speaker 1: Yeah, and even there with someone that you feel very, 521 00:29:52,159 --> 00:29:56,399 Speaker 1: very safe with, it's hard for you to bring something up. 522 00:29:56,439 --> 00:29:59,519 Speaker 1: In fifteen years, you have never brought up a difficult 523 00:29:59,559 --> 00:30:03,079 Speaker 1: topic between you. It's always been him. Yeah, what's your 524 00:30:03,759 --> 00:30:07,959 Speaker 1: fear with your husband if you were to bring something up? 525 00:30:08,879 --> 00:30:10,639 Speaker 3: I guess my fear, and I think this is a 526 00:30:10,679 --> 00:30:14,159 Speaker 3: fear that applies to almost any difficult conversation with anybody, 527 00:30:14,639 --> 00:30:20,559 Speaker 3: is that I won't be able to, I guess, stay 528 00:30:20,599 --> 00:30:22,559 Speaker 3: on my ground or articulate my. 529 00:30:22,599 --> 00:30:26,999 Speaker 2: Voice because you'll feel too flooded to do that, or 530 00:30:27,039 --> 00:30:29,399 Speaker 2: because they won't listen. 531 00:30:29,919 --> 00:30:33,799 Speaker 3: I think i'd feel too overwhelmed. I think i'd feel 532 00:30:33,879 --> 00:30:40,799 Speaker 3: fearful that the floodgates would open and that a lot 533 00:30:40,839 --> 00:30:45,439 Speaker 3: of hurt would come spilling out. And you know, as 534 00:30:45,479 --> 00:30:49,359 Speaker 3: I said before, when I fight with people, I almost 535 00:30:49,439 --> 00:30:54,959 Speaker 3: can't think. When I have a difficult conversation, I lose 536 00:30:55,039 --> 00:30:58,399 Speaker 3: the thread a lot, and I lose my thoughts, so 537 00:30:58,519 --> 00:31:06,919 Speaker 3: you dissociate. Yes, And I have no training in how 538 00:31:06,959 --> 00:31:14,399 Speaker 3: to have a positive conversation. I had no experience, and 539 00:31:16,239 --> 00:31:21,359 Speaker 3: I think it feels shameful as a grown woman that 540 00:31:21,439 --> 00:31:28,159 Speaker 3: I can't defend myself. And so I take all of 541 00:31:28,199 --> 00:31:34,759 Speaker 3: that hurt and I channel it towards these letters. And 542 00:31:34,799 --> 00:31:37,999 Speaker 3: I'm sure that you know these letters are not just 543 00:31:38,079 --> 00:31:40,839 Speaker 3: toward that one person, but it's towards all of the 544 00:31:40,879 --> 00:31:43,759 Speaker 3: people that I feel angry about. It's just easier for 545 00:31:43,799 --> 00:31:45,999 Speaker 3: me to sort of sift it down into one person. 546 00:31:48,319 --> 00:31:51,759 Speaker 3: But yes, fighting is very, very scary for me. 547 00:31:53,079 --> 00:31:55,999 Speaker 1: See, we weren't even talking about fighting. We were talking 548 00:31:56,039 --> 00:32:00,399 Speaker 1: about a conversation. But for you, in your mind, there's 549 00:32:00,439 --> 00:32:05,639 Speaker 1: no difference between bringing something up to help prepare something 550 00:32:06,559 --> 00:32:07,199 Speaker 1: and fighting. 551 00:32:07,599 --> 00:32:10,759 Speaker 3: That's right. I can't see them as being separate. 552 00:32:11,239 --> 00:32:13,639 Speaker 1: And yet when your husband brings these things up to you, 553 00:32:14,479 --> 00:32:16,599 Speaker 1: do you feel that that's fighting or do you feel 554 00:32:16,599 --> 00:32:17,719 Speaker 1: like you're having a conversation. 555 00:32:17,919 --> 00:32:21,079 Speaker 3: I feel like we're having a conversation. I trust him, 556 00:32:21,439 --> 00:32:27,399 Speaker 3: and I never feel like it's going to be combative. 557 00:32:28,039 --> 00:32:31,119 Speaker 3: I know that I can always get to the words somehow, 558 00:32:32,839 --> 00:32:36,359 Speaker 3: but with other people, I don't know why I sort 559 00:32:36,399 --> 00:32:40,599 Speaker 3: of revert into this like I'm cowering in a corner. 560 00:32:41,959 --> 00:32:44,239 Speaker 3: I know what I feel and I know what I think, 561 00:32:45,479 --> 00:32:49,399 Speaker 3: but somehow to express that to people it's so tough 562 00:32:49,399 --> 00:32:49,719 Speaker 3: for me. 563 00:32:50,359 --> 00:32:54,399 Speaker 1: Can you give us an example of something that happened 564 00:32:54,399 --> 00:32:59,159 Speaker 1: recently with anyone? Is that it's not just with this friend? Yeah, 565 00:32:59,199 --> 00:33:02,319 Speaker 1: where you said you know exactly what you're feeling. 566 00:33:03,599 --> 00:33:09,079 Speaker 3: Sure. I was talking to a fellow mom on the 567 00:33:09,079 --> 00:33:14,559 Speaker 3: playground a few months ago, and she was ranting about 568 00:33:14,559 --> 00:33:18,559 Speaker 3: someone that we know in common, and the person I 569 00:33:18,639 --> 00:33:21,999 Speaker 3: was talking to she has a dusk job, and she 570 00:33:22,319 --> 00:33:26,759 Speaker 3: was all of a sudden making snide comments about this 571 00:33:26,839 --> 00:33:29,639 Speaker 3: third party not having a job. She was just a 572 00:33:29,719 --> 00:33:33,359 Speaker 3: stay at home mother, and she was really denigrating and 573 00:33:33,399 --> 00:33:35,599 Speaker 3: pitting sort of the work moms and the stay at 574 00:33:35,599 --> 00:33:39,679 Speaker 3: home moms, pitting them against one another. And I said 575 00:33:39,679 --> 00:33:41,879 Speaker 3: to her, well, you do realize that I must stay 576 00:33:41,879 --> 00:33:45,759 Speaker 3: at home mom? And I can't remember exactly what she said, 577 00:33:45,759 --> 00:33:47,959 Speaker 3: but she glossed over it, and she kept talking in 578 00:33:47,999 --> 00:33:51,519 Speaker 3: a very condescending manner about this woman, implying that she 579 00:33:51,559 --> 00:33:57,839 Speaker 3: does nothing. And I've stowed about it for days. I 580 00:33:58,199 --> 00:34:00,479 Speaker 3: continue to doe about it because she knows full well 581 00:34:00,479 --> 00:34:02,719 Speaker 3: that I'm a stay at home parent. And yet even 582 00:34:02,759 --> 00:34:05,119 Speaker 3: as I told her to back off that I found 583 00:34:05,119 --> 00:34:09,399 Speaker 3: this offensive, she kept going. And in the moment, for me, 584 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,519 Speaker 3: it was easier just to sort of walk away from 585 00:34:13,559 --> 00:34:16,799 Speaker 3: this person, rolling my eyes. But I still feel that 586 00:34:16,839 --> 00:34:21,879 Speaker 3: smart and I've sort of spun that interaction into her 587 00:34:21,999 --> 00:34:26,919 Speaker 3: being a horrible person, a neglectful mother, inconsiderate of other people, 588 00:34:27,479 --> 00:34:30,479 Speaker 3: and it just has sort of become this hurricane. 589 00:34:30,959 --> 00:34:34,119 Speaker 1: But I was asking what you felt, so I'm hearing 590 00:34:34,159 --> 00:34:36,519 Speaker 1: a lot about what you thought. Yeah, tell me what 591 00:34:36,559 --> 00:34:37,279 Speaker 1: the feeling was. 592 00:34:37,759 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 3: Yeah. I felt disrespected and unheard, and those I think 593 00:34:41,879 --> 00:34:44,159 Speaker 3: are my trigger points. I felt small. 594 00:34:44,799 --> 00:34:46,759 Speaker 2: What do you wish you would have said to her 595 00:34:47,799 --> 00:34:48,559 Speaker 2: in that moment? 596 00:34:49,479 --> 00:34:51,359 Speaker 3: I wish I could have told her to I mean, 597 00:34:52,159 --> 00:34:54,599 Speaker 3: buzz off. I mean, she probably shouldn't say this to me. 598 00:34:55,679 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 2: What occurred to me also is that you can think 599 00:34:57,799 --> 00:35:00,359 Speaker 2: about it in hindsight, and you can articulate it very clearly. 600 00:35:00,479 --> 00:35:03,919 Speaker 2: In the moment, the anxiety you feel is so severe 601 00:35:04,079 --> 00:35:08,919 Speaker 2: that you truly dissociate. And I'm just was wondering whether 602 00:35:08,959 --> 00:35:12,159 Speaker 2: you had any knowledge about whether that's something that happened 603 00:35:12,639 --> 00:35:15,359 Speaker 2: to your mom, And maybe that's why she would write letters, 604 00:35:15,399 --> 00:35:18,479 Speaker 2: because she too might not have been able to handle 605 00:35:18,679 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 2: a direct conversation. 606 00:35:20,439 --> 00:35:25,599 Speaker 3: Yes, I believe so. She had a very hard charging 607 00:35:25,639 --> 00:35:31,919 Speaker 3: mother who would tell you exactly what she thought, tolerated 608 00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:33,719 Speaker 3: no other opinions. 609 00:35:34,119 --> 00:35:40,879 Speaker 1: So your grandmother would express herself in a very unthoughtful way, yeah, 610 00:35:41,839 --> 00:35:44,519 Speaker 1: and then your mother would express herself also in a 611 00:35:44,599 --> 00:35:51,039 Speaker 1: very rigid way and maybe unthoughtful, but never directly to later. 612 00:35:51,759 --> 00:35:53,679 Speaker 3: Yeah. I've often thought about that. 613 00:35:53,959 --> 00:35:59,439 Speaker 1: And when we talk about intergenerational trauma, this is a 614 00:35:59,999 --> 00:36:03,759 Speaker 1: way of being that has been passed down through the generations, 615 00:36:04,639 --> 00:36:07,879 Speaker 1: and it's always the person who comes and says, I'm 616 00:36:07,879 --> 00:36:10,999 Speaker 1: having trouble with this. Who can put a stop to it, 617 00:36:11,399 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: who can really end the cycle? And I think it's 618 00:36:17,279 --> 00:36:20,839 Speaker 1: interesting that the word you used when you said this 619 00:36:20,879 --> 00:36:22,359 Speaker 1: woman was talking to you and I said how did 620 00:36:22,399 --> 00:36:26,839 Speaker 1: you feel? And you said, I felt very small because 621 00:36:26,879 --> 00:36:31,639 Speaker 1: you probably did feel small, literally like you felt as 622 00:36:31,679 --> 00:36:32,239 Speaker 1: a child. 623 00:36:32,599 --> 00:36:33,879 Speaker 3: Yeah, totally, totally. 624 00:36:34,639 --> 00:36:37,399 Speaker 2: Is this something you've ever spoken about with your siblings. 625 00:36:37,599 --> 00:36:39,799 Speaker 2: Is it a conversation you've had about the style your 626 00:36:39,799 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 2: parents had with the shunning and the letters, and the 627 00:36:41,759 --> 00:36:42,799 Speaker 2: impact that had on you. 628 00:36:43,479 --> 00:36:46,359 Speaker 3: It's interesting you say that because I recently saw both 629 00:36:46,399 --> 00:36:48,719 Speaker 3: my brothers over the holidays. My father is in the 630 00:36:48,719 --> 00:36:52,239 Speaker 3: middle of dementia and he really can't handle having grandchildren 631 00:36:52,279 --> 00:36:55,479 Speaker 3: around him because he doesn't know who is who. He 632 00:36:56,559 --> 00:37:00,919 Speaker 3: had an outburst yelled at some small grandchildren. But my 633 00:37:00,959 --> 00:37:05,159 Speaker 3: oldest brother said to me, she just like being twelve again. 634 00:37:05,879 --> 00:37:08,599 Speaker 3: And I kind of thought, like, oh, look at you. 635 00:37:08,679 --> 00:37:12,799 Speaker 3: That's right. Like if anybody has been more forward in 636 00:37:12,879 --> 00:37:15,919 Speaker 3: talking about our father and how sort of oppressive he was, 637 00:37:17,159 --> 00:37:21,239 Speaker 3: it's me. But I felt like a little glimmer of 638 00:37:21,279 --> 00:37:24,759 Speaker 3: hope hearing my brother say that, an acknowledgment that, like 639 00:37:24,839 --> 00:37:26,959 Speaker 3: his childhood had been kind of miserable too. 640 00:37:27,559 --> 00:37:31,319 Speaker 1: Have you ever directly talked to your brothers about the 641 00:37:31,439 --> 00:37:36,359 Speaker 1: experience of being children together and your father's outbursts and 642 00:37:36,399 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 1: your mother's letters. 643 00:37:40,319 --> 00:37:43,319 Speaker 3: No, we haven't. We've had some comments where I know 644 00:37:43,399 --> 00:37:46,839 Speaker 3: that they felt similarly, but No, we've skated over it 645 00:37:46,959 --> 00:37:50,759 Speaker 3: and made comments. I think because it was traumatic for us, 646 00:37:50,799 --> 00:37:53,599 Speaker 3: all we try to put it behind us. 647 00:37:54,279 --> 00:37:56,919 Speaker 1: That comment though, about oh, which just like being twelve again, 648 00:37:57,839 --> 00:38:00,959 Speaker 1: feels a little bit like an acknowledgment and opening. 649 00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:02,079 Speaker 3: That's how I read it. 650 00:38:02,559 --> 00:38:05,479 Speaker 1: Can you give us an example of the most recent 651 00:38:05,879 --> 00:38:08,559 Speaker 1: letter that you've written in your head with this? 652 00:38:10,439 --> 00:38:14,439 Speaker 3: Sure, I'll give you an example of a letter I 653 00:38:14,439 --> 00:38:17,679 Speaker 3: would write to the spouse. I would probably say something 654 00:38:17,679 --> 00:38:21,319 Speaker 3: about how my friend had an affair because she was 655 00:38:21,359 --> 00:38:24,919 Speaker 3: so frustrated and bored by you, and I would probably 656 00:38:25,759 --> 00:38:28,719 Speaker 3: end it by saying, that's how everyone finds you boring 657 00:38:28,799 --> 00:38:33,919 Speaker 3: and frustrating. They're just written to eviscerate and no, there's 658 00:38:33,959 --> 00:38:37,439 Speaker 3: nothing really about them other than to her. 659 00:38:38,199 --> 00:38:40,879 Speaker 2: But you don't convey your heart. In other words, the 660 00:38:40,959 --> 00:38:45,159 Speaker 2: letter isn't I'm very upset with you because you took 661 00:38:45,199 --> 00:38:48,759 Speaker 2: my friend away from me, and you cost me this 662 00:38:49,279 --> 00:38:51,719 Speaker 2: bond that was so special to me for so long, 663 00:38:51,879 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 2: and you created such resentment in me that it's difficult 664 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:57,679 Speaker 2: for me now to really connect with her and to 665 00:38:58,239 --> 00:39:00,639 Speaker 2: reach the depths of friendship that we used to have. 666 00:39:01,359 --> 00:39:03,799 Speaker 2: That's not what the letter is. Have you ever written 667 00:39:03,799 --> 00:39:07,639 Speaker 2: a letter like that that actually just speaks about how 668 00:39:07,679 --> 00:39:12,119 Speaker 2: you feel. No, why not, do you think? 669 00:39:13,439 --> 00:39:16,239 Speaker 3: I think because it's harder for me to express myself. 670 00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,559 Speaker 2: I think it's because it's more painful to do that, 671 00:39:20,719 --> 00:39:24,159 Speaker 2: to confront yourself with how you're really feeling, with the 672 00:39:24,319 --> 00:39:27,679 Speaker 2: loss that you really experience, with the sense of injustice 673 00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 2: that you have, with that sense of powerlessness and frustration. 674 00:39:31,599 --> 00:39:33,999 Speaker 2: I think it taps into that. Yeah, and I think 675 00:39:34,119 --> 00:39:35,919 Speaker 2: you're trying to stay away from that, even though you 676 00:39:35,919 --> 00:39:37,919 Speaker 2: do have access to it, because when we speak about it, 677 00:39:38,039 --> 00:39:41,159 Speaker 2: you get tearful. But the letters are not just the 678 00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:44,319 Speaker 2: venting there to keep you away from the real painful 679 00:39:44,679 --> 00:39:46,879 Speaker 2: stuff that's going on underneath. 680 00:39:48,199 --> 00:39:50,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, I see that, and I agree with you. 681 00:39:51,399 --> 00:39:57,599 Speaker 1: Are you wanting something to change with your friend or 682 00:39:57,639 --> 00:40:00,519 Speaker 1: with her husband, because you were talking about a letter 683 00:40:00,519 --> 00:40:03,039 Speaker 1: to her husband. What are the letters that you write 684 00:40:03,079 --> 00:40:03,639 Speaker 1: to your friend? 685 00:40:04,119 --> 00:40:10,559 Speaker 3: The most recent versions would have to do with how 686 00:40:10,599 --> 00:40:15,519 Speaker 3: she's raising her children, or who are all lovely by 687 00:40:15,559 --> 00:40:19,679 Speaker 3: the way, I would perhaps see the child and the 688 00:40:19,839 --> 00:40:23,999 Speaker 3: child in completely the normal course of being an eight 689 00:40:24,119 --> 00:40:26,519 Speaker 3: year old or a nine year old has a moment 690 00:40:26,599 --> 00:40:31,319 Speaker 3: where they act out, So I would probably say something like, well, 691 00:40:31,399 --> 00:40:36,239 Speaker 3: your child is disrespectful to you, and everyone thinks is 692 00:40:36,239 --> 00:40:40,879 Speaker 3: a brat. Really, the crux of my letters are written 693 00:40:40,919 --> 00:40:46,439 Speaker 3: to this husband, So you know the letters that I 694 00:40:46,479 --> 00:40:50,519 Speaker 3: write to my friend, I would probably also point out 695 00:40:50,559 --> 00:40:52,159 Speaker 3: how awful her husband is. 696 00:40:53,199 --> 00:40:58,319 Speaker 1: It sounds like she shares her own difficulty with her 697 00:40:58,399 --> 00:41:01,639 Speaker 1: husband with you, yes, And I wonder what that's like, 698 00:41:01,759 --> 00:41:05,319 Speaker 1: given your own feelings toward him. What role do you 699 00:41:05,359 --> 00:41:08,679 Speaker 1: play in that when she brings up something difficult about 700 00:41:08,679 --> 00:41:09,239 Speaker 1: her husband. 701 00:41:10,079 --> 00:41:13,399 Speaker 3: Well after they were first married, there was a very 702 00:41:13,479 --> 00:41:17,999 Speaker 3: rocky period immediately following their marriage, and it looked as 703 00:41:17,999 --> 00:41:22,959 Speaker 3: if the marriage would be over very quickly. And I 704 00:41:22,999 --> 00:41:26,759 Speaker 3: remember being out with her one night and she was 705 00:41:26,799 --> 00:41:30,999 Speaker 3: telling me his terrible treatment of her, and I offered 706 00:41:31,039 --> 00:41:33,519 Speaker 3: her a place to stay, and I said, you know, 707 00:41:33,559 --> 00:41:36,199 Speaker 3: you can always stay with me for however long you need, 708 00:41:36,959 --> 00:41:43,599 Speaker 3: but I don't believe that you deserve this treatment. Within 709 00:41:43,719 --> 00:41:48,079 Speaker 3: a couple weeks, things were repaired, they were back together, 710 00:41:49,199 --> 00:41:53,199 Speaker 3: and it was as if sort of an iceberg had 711 00:41:53,199 --> 00:41:57,479 Speaker 3: come in between us. I think she was greatly offended 712 00:41:57,519 --> 00:42:02,559 Speaker 3: by me saying, based upon what she told me, that 713 00:42:02,679 --> 00:42:04,959 Speaker 3: if you want to leave him, I will help you. 714 00:42:05,879 --> 00:42:08,479 Speaker 3: I think she'd wanted to vent and the fact that 715 00:42:08,519 --> 00:42:11,479 Speaker 3: I gave her advice put a wedge in between us. 716 00:42:13,079 --> 00:42:15,839 Speaker 1: But she still shares things that happen with her husband 717 00:42:15,879 --> 00:42:16,119 Speaker 1: with you. 718 00:42:16,679 --> 00:42:18,519 Speaker 3: Yes, And now what I say is I just say, 719 00:42:18,559 --> 00:42:19,479 Speaker 3: m hmm, do. 720 00:42:19,479 --> 00:42:23,039 Speaker 2: You share any struggles with her? Since she's sharing such personal. 721 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:27,759 Speaker 3: Things with you, she never asks, And when I try 722 00:42:27,799 --> 00:42:32,319 Speaker 3: to bring something up that has happened to me, something 723 00:42:32,399 --> 00:42:35,999 Speaker 3: about my family or my father, it almost always reverts 724 00:42:36,039 --> 00:42:40,359 Speaker 3: back to her. And I'm certain that's feeling. Some of 725 00:42:40,399 --> 00:42:43,319 Speaker 3: my anger in this situation is that I don't feel heard. 726 00:42:44,879 --> 00:42:49,559 Speaker 1: It doesn't sound like there's a lot of reciprocity in 727 00:42:49,599 --> 00:42:50,239 Speaker 1: the friendship. 728 00:42:50,479 --> 00:42:54,039 Speaker 3: You're absolutely right. The way that the friendship is structured, 729 00:42:54,159 --> 00:42:57,599 Speaker 3: there's very little reciprocity. I'm aware of the imbalance of it. 730 00:42:57,639 --> 00:43:02,119 Speaker 3: And I have tried to talk about, you know, my children, 731 00:43:02,159 --> 00:43:05,199 Speaker 3: not in a way that feels forceful, but just to 732 00:43:05,279 --> 00:43:08,319 Speaker 3: sort of even things out, and it always seems to 733 00:43:08,359 --> 00:43:12,039 Speaker 3: go back to her and her situation or her life 734 00:43:12,079 --> 00:43:12,759 Speaker 3: whatever it is. 735 00:43:13,439 --> 00:43:16,199 Speaker 1: You know, of all the letters that you write in 736 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,919 Speaker 1: your head, I haven't heard you write a letter in 737 00:43:19,919 --> 00:43:25,679 Speaker 1: your head to your mother or your father. Yeah, when 738 00:43:25,719 --> 00:43:28,119 Speaker 1: you were young. Did you do that, did you make 739 00:43:28,119 --> 00:43:29,959 Speaker 1: your case? Did you have your courtroom in your head 740 00:43:30,039 --> 00:43:33,799 Speaker 1: when you would feel misunderstood by them or mistreated? 741 00:43:34,159 --> 00:43:36,479 Speaker 3: Yes, in my head, I would definitely write them letters. 742 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,199 Speaker 3: It was too scary, though, to think about having an 743 00:43:40,439 --> 00:43:44,359 Speaker 3: actual face to face conversation with them. My father would 744 00:43:44,399 --> 00:43:47,199 Speaker 3: just walk away. I'm almost positive of it. 745 00:43:47,319 --> 00:43:49,159 Speaker 1: So you've been writing these letters, in fact, for a 746 00:43:49,239 --> 00:43:50,159 Speaker 1: very very long time. 747 00:43:51,399 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 2: Yes. 748 00:43:53,199 --> 00:43:56,959 Speaker 1: Tell us a little bit about what your relationship with 749 00:43:56,999 --> 00:43:58,239 Speaker 1: your mother is like now. 750 00:43:59,119 --> 00:44:02,159 Speaker 3: I touch base with her usually every day, every other day. 751 00:44:02,839 --> 00:44:07,519 Speaker 3: She is recovering from about of cancer. We talk, but 752 00:44:07,879 --> 00:44:14,319 Speaker 3: we don't talk about anything that's you know, I had 753 00:44:14,319 --> 00:44:17,919 Speaker 3: a fight, I'm feeling very closed in today, or something 754 00:44:17,959 --> 00:44:19,919 Speaker 3: like that. We just would never talk about that. My 755 00:44:19,999 --> 00:44:24,879 Speaker 3: mother is relentlessly positive, relentlessly positive, and you always look 756 00:44:24,959 --> 00:44:28,719 Speaker 3: to the bright side. If someone offends you, you just 757 00:44:28,759 --> 00:44:30,759 Speaker 3: shake your head and roll your eyes and move on, 758 00:44:31,399 --> 00:44:34,199 Speaker 3: and you don't waste time on stuff like that. 759 00:44:34,599 --> 00:44:37,319 Speaker 2: Well, you write them a letter, really, yeah, exactly. 760 00:44:37,599 --> 00:44:39,719 Speaker 3: She has her own ways of dealing with it. So 761 00:44:39,959 --> 00:44:44,479 Speaker 3: I'm close with her, but I'm not emotionally close with her. 762 00:44:45,279 --> 00:44:47,359 Speaker 3: I want her to be a part of my children's lives, 763 00:44:47,479 --> 00:44:51,279 Speaker 3: and she's a wonderful grandmother, cozy in a way that 764 00:44:51,359 --> 00:44:54,199 Speaker 3: I didn't have the grandmother be cozy with me, and 765 00:44:54,359 --> 00:44:57,719 Speaker 3: I'm really happy for that relationship. She loves those girls 766 00:44:57,759 --> 00:45:01,399 Speaker 3: so much. But she just is not an emotional mother. 767 00:45:01,559 --> 00:45:03,759 Speaker 3: She never has been an emotional mother that would give 768 00:45:03,759 --> 00:45:07,799 Speaker 3: me advice or I don't feel like she or my 769 00:45:07,879 --> 00:45:12,039 Speaker 3: father ever taught me how to navigate difficult conversations. 770 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:14,999 Speaker 1: I want you to notice that you said she's cozy 771 00:45:15,039 --> 00:45:17,079 Speaker 1: with them in a way that I didn't have that 772 00:45:17,159 --> 00:45:20,199 Speaker 1: with a grandmother. But you didn't say she's cozy in 773 00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:22,319 Speaker 1: a way with them that I didn't have with my mother. 774 00:45:23,119 --> 00:45:23,519 Speaker 3: True. 775 00:45:24,039 --> 00:45:25,719 Speaker 1: Do you see how far away you stay from those 776 00:45:25,759 --> 00:45:26,679 Speaker 1: painful feelings? 777 00:45:27,399 --> 00:45:31,039 Speaker 3: Yeah? Yeah, I have to tell you that there's been 778 00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:34,159 Speaker 3: one time in my life that my mother called me sweetheart. 779 00:45:34,319 --> 00:45:37,959 Speaker 3: She called me something other than Catherine. And when she 780 00:45:38,119 --> 00:45:41,999 Speaker 3: called me sweetheart, I remember just freezing and just I 781 00:45:42,039 --> 00:45:46,799 Speaker 3: couldn't believe that she used a term of endearment towards me. 782 00:45:46,919 --> 00:45:50,439 Speaker 3: It was so strange. I still remember where I was 783 00:45:50,559 --> 00:45:54,079 Speaker 3: and just kind of thinking, like I can't believe she 784 00:45:54,119 --> 00:45:56,999 Speaker 3: said something to me like that. It was almost like 785 00:45:57,039 --> 00:45:57,759 Speaker 3: being slapped. 786 00:45:58,119 --> 00:46:00,919 Speaker 1: You kind of dissociated too, you kind of froze. 787 00:46:01,119 --> 00:46:03,639 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah. 788 00:46:04,039 --> 00:46:07,999 Speaker 1: Have you had a friendship that's been reciprocal and satisfying. 789 00:46:08,239 --> 00:46:11,679 Speaker 3: Yes, Yes, it was somebody I met through work and 790 00:46:12,039 --> 00:46:15,959 Speaker 3: it's been a friendship of about twenty years or so. 791 00:46:15,999 --> 00:46:19,439 Speaker 3: This person has subsequently moved to another state and we 792 00:46:19,519 --> 00:46:22,519 Speaker 3: don't talk very often, but it's an immediate and deep 793 00:46:22,559 --> 00:46:25,799 Speaker 3: friendship when we do. I feel very comfortable with her, 794 00:46:26,519 --> 00:46:28,439 Speaker 3: sort of like my husband. I feel like she has 795 00:46:28,559 --> 00:46:32,399 Speaker 3: an emotional adroitness that I admire and one that I 796 00:46:32,439 --> 00:46:33,799 Speaker 3: know won't be used against me. 797 00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:37,199 Speaker 1: So you don't freeze with her. You're able to bring 798 00:46:37,279 --> 00:46:39,359 Speaker 1: up things with her, although it sounds like probably not 799 00:46:39,439 --> 00:46:42,679 Speaker 1: a lot comes up because you're not in the same location. 800 00:46:43,279 --> 00:46:48,479 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, I do feel comfortable having difficult conversations with her. 801 00:46:48,919 --> 00:46:49,799 Speaker 1: Have you ever done that? 802 00:46:50,359 --> 00:46:53,039 Speaker 3: Yeah? I think at one point it was probably in 803 00:46:53,079 --> 00:46:56,119 Speaker 3: the lead up to her wedding. It was all we 804 00:46:56,199 --> 00:46:58,879 Speaker 3: talked about, and I asked her for a little bit 805 00:46:58,879 --> 00:47:02,159 Speaker 3: of space because I couldn't talk about this wedding anymore. 806 00:47:02,559 --> 00:47:04,919 Speaker 3: I just needed a break, and she was very respectful of. 807 00:47:04,879 --> 00:47:07,439 Speaker 1: That, and it didn't make the friendship go away. 808 00:47:07,679 --> 00:47:09,959 Speaker 3: No, it didn't make the friendship go away. I still 809 00:47:10,439 --> 00:47:13,159 Speaker 3: count that as one of my most important friendships, and 810 00:47:13,439 --> 00:47:14,679 Speaker 3: I'm very thankful for it. 811 00:47:15,759 --> 00:47:17,479 Speaker 1: Does she know how much you appreciated that? 812 00:47:19,519 --> 00:47:21,959 Speaker 3: I don't know. I should probably tell her about that. 813 00:47:23,199 --> 00:47:25,599 Speaker 2: Does your husband know how much you appreciate him? 814 00:47:26,039 --> 00:47:27,999 Speaker 3: I think he does. I think we have a good 815 00:47:28,359 --> 00:47:30,879 Speaker 3: a good way of just sort of day in day out, 816 00:47:30,919 --> 00:47:33,159 Speaker 3: you know, a touch on the shoulder. He is. I 817 00:47:33,159 --> 00:47:37,159 Speaker 3: will say this very good about every day saying I 818 00:47:37,199 --> 00:47:40,679 Speaker 3: appreciate you. I am less good. But I will tell 819 00:47:40,679 --> 00:47:43,719 Speaker 3: you something. The big difference between my husband and I. 820 00:47:44,839 --> 00:47:47,919 Speaker 3: My husband lost his father in a terrible boting accident, 821 00:47:49,319 --> 00:47:55,359 Speaker 3: so he understands far better than I do about losing people. 822 00:47:57,079 --> 00:48:01,559 Speaker 3: He has done a great deal of work emotionally processing 823 00:48:01,599 --> 00:48:07,079 Speaker 3: that loss, and although I know it has been the 824 00:48:07,199 --> 00:48:11,599 Speaker 3: defining moment in his life, it has brought him a 825 00:48:11,719 --> 00:48:16,559 Speaker 3: real emotional clarity and a facility with saying I need help, 826 00:48:17,399 --> 00:48:23,679 Speaker 3: who can help me? And taking that help. And I 827 00:48:23,719 --> 00:48:25,719 Speaker 3: have not had that experience of loss. 828 00:48:26,319 --> 00:48:28,599 Speaker 1: I think you have had an experience of loss. It 829 00:48:28,759 --> 00:48:32,759 Speaker 1: just looks different. You mentioned when your mother called you sweetheart, 830 00:48:33,279 --> 00:48:34,839 Speaker 1: it you froze. 831 00:48:35,199 --> 00:48:35,399 Speaker 3: Yeah. 832 00:48:35,399 --> 00:48:37,079 Speaker 1: What do you do when your husband tells you I 833 00:48:37,119 --> 00:48:37,879 Speaker 1: appreciate you. 834 00:48:38,759 --> 00:48:41,159 Speaker 3: Well, he usually comes in for a kiss, and it's 835 00:48:41,239 --> 00:48:43,199 Speaker 3: very sweet and I love that he does that. 836 00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:45,279 Speaker 1: But what happens inside your body? 837 00:48:46,519 --> 00:48:48,519 Speaker 3: Well, I think it's a little bit still of an 838 00:48:48,599 --> 00:48:52,079 Speaker 3: unfamiliar feeling, but it's also quite sweet and welcome. 839 00:48:52,439 --> 00:48:53,599 Speaker 1: Does your body freeze? 840 00:48:53,679 --> 00:48:56,199 Speaker 3: Well, a little bit, But you know I return his 841 00:48:56,319 --> 00:48:57,279 Speaker 3: kiss or his hug. 842 00:48:57,599 --> 00:49:01,359 Speaker 1: Yeah, but verbally you don't. Oh, yeah, very turn the sentiment. 843 00:49:01,439 --> 00:49:03,919 Speaker 3: You know what I usually say? I usually say we 844 00:49:03,999 --> 00:49:08,839 Speaker 3: have a wonderful life together, because we do. And I 845 00:49:08,919 --> 00:49:09,719 Speaker 3: really that. 846 00:49:10,199 --> 00:49:13,639 Speaker 4: I'm laughing because it's like if someone says I love you, 847 00:49:13,679 --> 00:49:19,919 Speaker 4: and you say things are very nice, right, it's not personal, 848 00:49:20,119 --> 00:49:23,999 Speaker 4: it's not intimate, it's not about you specifically. We have 849 00:49:24,039 --> 00:49:28,759 Speaker 4: a nice life together is a very safe response. Yeah, 850 00:49:29,199 --> 00:49:32,719 Speaker 4: I appreciate you too is a less safe response. 851 00:49:33,119 --> 00:49:37,599 Speaker 3: Yeah. Right, it's just it's it's wildly unfamiliar to me 852 00:49:37,839 --> 00:49:40,559 Speaker 3: to be I guess more of vulnerable. 853 00:49:41,479 --> 00:49:42,919 Speaker 2: Do you say I love you to him? 854 00:49:43,079 --> 00:49:46,119 Speaker 3: Oh? Yes, yes, we say that quite often. I'm very 855 00:49:46,119 --> 00:49:48,799 Speaker 3: comfortable saying that to him. I'm very comfortable saying it 856 00:49:48,839 --> 00:49:53,239 Speaker 3: to my children. When my mother calls, she never says 857 00:49:53,239 --> 00:49:57,959 Speaker 3: the word I, but she just says love you, you know. 858 00:49:59,039 --> 00:50:02,439 Speaker 3: And I notice that, and I don't want my husband 859 00:50:02,479 --> 00:50:05,759 Speaker 3: or my children to feel that because there's a lot 860 00:50:05,799 --> 00:50:08,159 Speaker 3: of space missing from that word. 861 00:50:08,759 --> 00:50:14,879 Speaker 1: There's a huge space left by the lack of the eye. 862 00:50:15,159 --> 00:50:24,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, so, Catherine, we have some advice for you, and 863 00:50:24,599 --> 00:50:27,999 Speaker 2: here's the first part. We spoke about the fact that 864 00:50:28,079 --> 00:50:32,959 Speaker 2: when there's something intense emotionally going on, you tend to dissociate. 865 00:50:33,119 --> 00:50:35,119 Speaker 2: That's what keeps you, in part from being able to 866 00:50:35,159 --> 00:50:39,119 Speaker 2: have confrontations or even difficult discussions with people. But it 867 00:50:39,159 --> 00:50:42,439 Speaker 2: also happened when good things happen, when your mom calls 868 00:50:42,479 --> 00:50:46,639 Speaker 2: your sweetheart, or when your husband says something very loving 869 00:50:46,759 --> 00:50:49,119 Speaker 2: to you, then you also have a little bit of 870 00:50:49,119 --> 00:50:52,919 Speaker 2: a freezon that moment because it's intense. So the first 871 00:50:52,919 --> 00:50:55,279 Speaker 2: thing we'd like you to do is we'd like you 872 00:50:55,399 --> 00:50:57,839 Speaker 2: to express to your husband. And we think the best 873 00:50:57,879 --> 00:50:59,319 Speaker 2: way for you to do this would be to write 874 00:50:59,359 --> 00:51:00,959 Speaker 2: it out, not as a letter, but just write it 875 00:51:00,999 --> 00:51:04,239 Speaker 2: out and then read it to him. He says to 876 00:51:04,279 --> 00:51:07,119 Speaker 2: you that he appreciates you all the time you said 877 00:51:07,519 --> 00:51:09,759 Speaker 2: and your response. People are think the sadness. Yes, we 878 00:51:09,839 --> 00:51:11,839 Speaker 2: have a nice life together, and we want you to 879 00:51:11,919 --> 00:51:14,239 Speaker 2: make it more personal. We'd like you to express to 880 00:51:14,359 --> 00:51:18,279 Speaker 2: him how much you appreciate him, and we'd like you 881 00:51:18,319 --> 00:51:22,959 Speaker 2: to make it very personal about how he makes you feel, 882 00:51:22,999 --> 00:51:26,679 Speaker 2: that you feel safe with him, whatever the things are 883 00:51:26,759 --> 00:51:30,639 Speaker 2: that are specific that he does that is so emotionally expressive, 884 00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:35,079 Speaker 2: that you admire how well he recovered from the loss 885 00:51:35,079 --> 00:51:37,879 Speaker 2: of his dad and how much work he did in 886 00:51:37,919 --> 00:51:40,879 Speaker 2: therapy and work on himself and be such a loving 887 00:51:40,959 --> 00:51:43,759 Speaker 2: dad after that kind of loss. We'd like you to 888 00:51:43,799 --> 00:51:45,679 Speaker 2: write it out, because we think that'll be easier if 889 00:51:45,719 --> 00:51:47,599 Speaker 2: you wrote it out ahead of time, But then we'd 890 00:51:47,639 --> 00:51:51,039 Speaker 2: like you to read it to him and see how 891 00:51:51,079 --> 00:51:53,559 Speaker 2: you feel doing that. But we'd like you to not 892 00:51:53,599 --> 00:51:55,599 Speaker 2: only do that, but then also be able to sit 893 00:51:55,679 --> 00:51:58,799 Speaker 2: with his response and sit with how he's receiving it, 894 00:51:58,839 --> 00:52:01,719 Speaker 2: and especially if it's meaningful to him, to be able 895 00:52:01,719 --> 00:52:05,599 Speaker 2: to take that in as well, because that's connective tissue 896 00:52:05,919 --> 00:52:07,559 Speaker 2: we think you can have even more. 897 00:52:07,399 --> 00:52:09,319 Speaker 3: Of with him. I can do that. 898 00:52:09,879 --> 00:52:14,199 Speaker 1: And as we're talking about having a more direct connection 899 00:52:14,599 --> 00:52:18,039 Speaker 1: with your husband, we were thinking about your friend, about 900 00:52:18,079 --> 00:52:20,359 Speaker 1: how many of the letters that you write in your 901 00:52:20,399 --> 00:52:23,399 Speaker 1: head around that friendship are actually directed toward her husband. 902 00:52:24,559 --> 00:52:27,239 Speaker 1: We would like you to focus more on the relationship 903 00:52:27,279 --> 00:52:29,999 Speaker 1: between you and your friend, regardless of what's going on 904 00:52:30,039 --> 00:52:33,919 Speaker 1: in their marriage. And one of the things that was 905 00:52:33,919 --> 00:52:35,839 Speaker 1: interesting was you talked about how close you are, but 906 00:52:35,919 --> 00:52:37,959 Speaker 1: at the same time, there doesn't seem to be a 907 00:52:38,039 --> 00:52:41,959 Speaker 1: lot of room for you to get support from her. 908 00:52:42,679 --> 00:52:44,839 Speaker 1: The conversation kind of drifts back to whatever is going 909 00:52:44,879 --> 00:52:48,839 Speaker 1: on with her. You have this idea that either you 910 00:52:48,879 --> 00:52:51,439 Speaker 1: confront somebody and everything could blow up, which is why 911 00:52:51,479 --> 00:52:53,759 Speaker 1: you don't confront people, or you write letters in your 912 00:52:53,759 --> 00:52:57,439 Speaker 1: head and you plot revenge. And those are the two alternatives. 913 00:52:57,719 --> 00:52:59,839 Speaker 1: We want to give you a third way. We would 914 00:52:59,919 --> 00:53:03,639 Speaker 1: like you to call your friend and say, is there 915 00:53:03,679 --> 00:53:06,079 Speaker 1: a time that we can talk, And we'd like you 916 00:53:06,159 --> 00:53:08,199 Speaker 1: to talk about something going on in your own life, 917 00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:12,279 Speaker 1: and maybe it's your her father right now with dementia 918 00:53:12,319 --> 00:53:14,639 Speaker 1: and some of the difficulty because your family doesn't really 919 00:53:14,639 --> 00:53:17,559 Speaker 1: talk about things. And if she readirects and says, let 920 00:53:17,559 --> 00:53:19,279 Speaker 1: me tell you about what's going on with my husband 921 00:53:20,559 --> 00:53:22,879 Speaker 1: instead of just sitting there and then writing a revenge 922 00:53:22,959 --> 00:53:26,199 Speaker 1: letter later in the moment, you can say you know 923 00:53:26,199 --> 00:53:28,159 Speaker 1: I'm happy to talk about that later, but right now 924 00:53:28,159 --> 00:53:30,399 Speaker 1: I'm really struggling with this. Can we talk about this 925 00:53:30,439 --> 00:53:34,879 Speaker 1: a little bit more and see how she responds. Now, 926 00:53:34,959 --> 00:53:36,959 Speaker 1: she might not be able to do that with you, 927 00:53:37,079 --> 00:53:41,759 Speaker 1: and that's good information, And the information is, oh, okay, 928 00:53:41,879 --> 00:53:44,839 Speaker 1: she's not a person that really has the capacity for that, 929 00:53:45,479 --> 00:53:48,079 Speaker 1: and that might motivate you to look at the other 930 00:53:48,159 --> 00:53:51,919 Speaker 1: relationships in your life and other friendships so that you 931 00:53:51,959 --> 00:53:55,399 Speaker 1: don't lose this friendship. But maybe it serves certain purposes 932 00:53:55,439 --> 00:53:58,039 Speaker 1: for you but not others, so you're not simmering all 933 00:53:58,039 --> 00:54:01,439 Speaker 1: the time with this feeling of being unacknowledged or unseen 934 00:54:01,519 --> 00:54:05,439 Speaker 1: or unheard. The other possibility is that she might respond well, 935 00:54:06,079 --> 00:54:08,999 Speaker 1: and she might really be there for you. And now 936 00:54:08,999 --> 00:54:11,879 Speaker 1: what you're doing is you're changing that assumption you have 937 00:54:11,999 --> 00:54:15,719 Speaker 1: that she just doesn't have an interest in you, and 938 00:54:15,759 --> 00:54:18,079 Speaker 1: you're saying, oh, I haven't been stepping up. I haven't 939 00:54:18,079 --> 00:54:20,839 Speaker 1: been sharing myself with her because I was afraid to. 940 00:54:21,279 --> 00:54:24,159 Speaker 1: But when I do insert myself into the conversation and 941 00:54:24,199 --> 00:54:27,079 Speaker 1: I tell her what I need, she's actually quite responsive. 942 00:54:27,999 --> 00:54:30,479 Speaker 1: And this takes you away from the whole obsession around 943 00:54:30,519 --> 00:54:33,559 Speaker 1: the husband and all the revenge fantasies around him, and 944 00:54:33,599 --> 00:54:36,959 Speaker 1: it puts you right there in the friendship to see 945 00:54:36,999 --> 00:54:38,719 Speaker 1: what this friendship can be. 946 00:54:39,079 --> 00:54:42,799 Speaker 3: Yeah, because that's entirely what I want. 947 00:54:42,679 --> 00:54:45,599 Speaker 1: So that you're not sitting there feeling helpless like you 948 00:54:46,039 --> 00:54:48,679 Speaker 1: experienced growing up and then you feel like you have 949 00:54:48,759 --> 00:54:50,879 Speaker 1: no recourse other than to have these court cases go 950 00:54:50,919 --> 00:54:51,559 Speaker 1: on in your mind. 951 00:54:52,879 --> 00:54:53,639 Speaker 3: Yeah. 952 00:54:53,679 --> 00:54:55,959 Speaker 1: And our hope is that once you establish more trust, 953 00:54:56,159 --> 00:54:59,519 Speaker 1: that you can be in this friendship differently. Maybe you 954 00:54:59,559 --> 00:55:02,839 Speaker 1: guys will start talking about the friendship itself at a 955 00:55:02,839 --> 00:55:04,639 Speaker 1: certain point to be able to say to her, Hey, 956 00:55:04,679 --> 00:55:07,119 Speaker 1: I miss you, can we get together, or even positive 957 00:55:07,159 --> 00:55:09,759 Speaker 1: things like I've really enjoyed how we've been talking lately. 958 00:55:09,799 --> 00:55:12,559 Speaker 1: It makes me feel really close with you. Little statements 959 00:55:12,679 --> 00:55:18,079 Speaker 1: like that really can have an effect on the entire 960 00:55:18,319 --> 00:55:19,959 Speaker 1: feeling of what the friendship is like. 961 00:55:20,479 --> 00:55:22,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, no, I like that. 962 00:55:22,839 --> 00:55:25,079 Speaker 2: One more thing we have for you to do. We 963 00:55:25,159 --> 00:55:29,919 Speaker 2: were thinking about your childhood and how unseen you felt 964 00:55:30,079 --> 00:55:33,279 Speaker 2: and how unable you will to speak up because your 965 00:55:33,359 --> 00:55:36,519 Speaker 2: dad would just bark and your mom wouldn't communicate. You'd 966 00:55:36,519 --> 00:55:40,239 Speaker 2: send a letter but not have the conversation. We'd like 967 00:55:40,319 --> 00:55:44,999 Speaker 2: you to get in touch with how that felt to 968 00:55:45,079 --> 00:55:49,559 Speaker 2: grow up in that house. Because your letters tend to 969 00:55:49,639 --> 00:55:54,359 Speaker 2: be an attempt to, in the fantasy, hurt the other person. 970 00:55:55,279 --> 00:55:58,159 Speaker 2: But you're writing them because you're not looking at your 971 00:55:58,199 --> 00:56:00,599 Speaker 2: own hurt, and we'd like you to get in touch 972 00:56:00,639 --> 00:56:04,479 Speaker 2: with some of that hurt from childhood. So we'd like 973 00:56:04,519 --> 00:56:07,559 Speaker 2: you to actually write a real letter. Now it will 974 00:56:07,559 --> 00:56:10,039 Speaker 2: be one you don't send, but we'd like you to 975 00:56:10,119 --> 00:56:15,399 Speaker 2: write a letter to your mom in which you tell 976 00:56:15,439 --> 00:56:17,919 Speaker 2: her and describe to her what it was like for 977 00:56:17,959 --> 00:56:21,519 Speaker 2: you to grow up in the house, what it was 978 00:56:21,639 --> 00:56:25,039 Speaker 2: like for you to receive that letter from her about 979 00:56:25,159 --> 00:56:28,159 Speaker 2: the box that you didn't love and gather dust. We'd 980 00:56:28,199 --> 00:56:29,759 Speaker 2: like you to tell her what it was like to 981 00:56:29,799 --> 00:56:32,799 Speaker 2: not be able to speak up, what it was like 982 00:56:32,919 --> 00:56:36,399 Speaker 2: to be told that the weight of the future of 983 00:56:36,439 --> 00:56:38,719 Speaker 2: America is in your hands and that a minus is 984 00:56:38,719 --> 00:56:40,799 Speaker 2: going to cost us all dearly. You know, we'd like 985 00:56:40,839 --> 00:56:42,759 Speaker 2: you to be as honest and as open as you can, 986 00:56:42,839 --> 00:56:46,799 Speaker 2: because you won't be sending the letter to her, what 987 00:56:46,839 --> 00:56:50,759 Speaker 2: you will be doing with it after you're done. We 988 00:56:50,879 --> 00:56:52,679 Speaker 2: want you to be seen, So we'd like you just 989 00:56:52,679 --> 00:56:56,039 Speaker 2: to share it with your husband and say, this is 990 00:56:56,039 --> 00:56:58,519 Speaker 2: a letter I'm not sending to my mom. Someone has 991 00:56:58,559 --> 00:57:01,559 Speaker 2: to hear it, and I'll appreciate so much of that 992 00:57:01,599 --> 00:57:05,639 Speaker 2: with you and read it to him and be able 993 00:57:05,679 --> 00:57:10,279 Speaker 2: to express it and be heard and be seen by someone. 994 00:57:10,519 --> 00:57:13,439 Speaker 3: Yeah, that's beautiful. I love that idea. 995 00:57:13,839 --> 00:57:16,639 Speaker 1: And then we'd also like you to sit with what 996 00:57:16,679 --> 00:57:20,239 Speaker 1: it feels like when he responds, what is it like 997 00:57:20,319 --> 00:57:23,839 Speaker 1: not only to be able to let your feelings be 998 00:57:23,879 --> 00:57:26,599 Speaker 1: seen by yourself, which we think you don't do enough 999 00:57:26,839 --> 00:57:28,719 Speaker 1: because you're so focused on the other people and the 1000 00:57:28,719 --> 00:57:32,319 Speaker 1: revenge fantasies, but what is it like to be seen 1001 00:57:32,399 --> 00:57:34,159 Speaker 1: by someone I'm close with? 1002 00:57:34,519 --> 00:57:34,759 Speaker 3: Yeah? 1003 00:57:35,359 --> 00:57:38,759 Speaker 1: Those are the three tasks for the week, okay, and 1004 00:57:38,999 --> 00:57:41,239 Speaker 1: we're really looking forward to hearing how those go for you. 1005 00:57:41,479 --> 00:57:45,799 Speaker 3: Oh, thank you. This has been something more than I 1006 00:57:45,839 --> 00:57:46,719 Speaker 3: could have imagined. 1007 00:57:52,319 --> 00:57:56,679 Speaker 2: I really feel for Catherine because growing up feeling so 1008 00:57:56,999 --> 00:58:01,239 Speaker 2: unseen and dealing with that silent treatment and the shinning 1009 00:58:01,319 --> 00:58:04,199 Speaker 2: it's so painful, and then experiencing that in her adult 1010 00:58:04,279 --> 00:58:07,079 Speaker 2: life over and over again because she can't speak up 1011 00:58:07,519 --> 00:58:11,399 Speaker 2: and so she feels so un and then so powerless. 1012 00:58:12,399 --> 00:58:14,839 Speaker 2: It is just very difficult to deal with for so 1013 00:58:14,959 --> 00:58:15,639 Speaker 2: many decades. 1014 00:58:17,199 --> 00:58:21,479 Speaker 1: And what's interesting is that sometimes people don't realize that 1015 00:58:21,639 --> 00:58:26,519 Speaker 1: there's an intergenerational transmission. We saw that it might present differently, 1016 00:58:26,679 --> 00:58:31,479 Speaker 1: where her grandmother was very critical and outspoken, and then 1017 00:58:31,639 --> 00:58:34,359 Speaker 1: the mother was very critical writing letters, but we're not 1018 00:58:34,359 --> 00:58:36,799 Speaker 1: going to have a conversation about it. And then you 1019 00:58:36,879 --> 00:58:41,839 Speaker 1: come to Catherine and she's just dissociated, so you can 1020 00:58:41,879 --> 00:58:44,479 Speaker 1: see that she wants to stop it. I was very 1021 00:58:44,559 --> 00:58:49,719 Speaker 1: encouraged by how open she is to taking risks, even 1022 00:58:49,759 --> 00:58:53,479 Speaker 1: though it scares her. She's very interested in trying something new. 1023 00:58:53,519 --> 00:58:55,199 Speaker 1: She's gotten to the point where she said, this is 1024 00:58:55,279 --> 00:58:57,799 Speaker 1: very exhausting. I don't want to live this way. This 1025 00:58:57,879 --> 00:59:01,079 Speaker 1: is emotionally draining, and so I really hope that the 1026 00:59:01,319 --> 00:59:03,439 Speaker 1: assignment we gave her will help her not only to 1027 00:59:04,079 --> 00:59:06,919 Speaker 1: feel more seen and heard around her experiences, but also 1028 00:59:07,039 --> 00:59:10,119 Speaker 1: opens her up to the positive experience. We always say 1029 00:59:10,119 --> 00:59:11,319 Speaker 1: that if you're going to mute the pain, you're going 1030 00:59:11,359 --> 00:59:14,559 Speaker 1: to mute the joy, and I think that's what's happened here. 1031 00:59:14,559 --> 00:59:16,719 Speaker 1: When her husband says I appreciate you, she says, well, 1032 00:59:16,719 --> 00:59:18,879 Speaker 1: we have a nice life together. So I think it'll 1033 00:59:18,919 --> 00:59:22,039 Speaker 1: be really interesting to see how these exercises go this 1034 00:59:22,119 --> 00:59:29,039 Speaker 1: week and what kind of shifts she can make from them. 1035 00:59:29,319 --> 00:59:32,439 Speaker 2: You're listening to dea therapists. We'll be back after a 1036 00:59:32,479 --> 00:59:33,079 Speaker 2: short break. 1037 00:59:45,519 --> 00:59:48,239 Speaker 1: So guy, we heard back from Catherine, and let's hear 1038 00:59:48,359 --> 00:59:49,119 Speaker 1: how her week went. 1039 00:59:50,319 --> 00:59:53,999 Speaker 3: Hello, assignment number one. My husband was very touched to 1040 00:59:54,039 --> 00:59:57,119 Speaker 3: hear my letter. He listened and cried at times roll 1041 00:59:57,159 --> 00:59:59,079 Speaker 3: he knows how hard it is for me to express 1042 00:59:59,119 --> 01:00:03,159 Speaker 3: my feelings. They really felt as if I saw him overall. 1043 01:00:03,239 --> 01:00:06,319 Speaker 3: He was very supportive and cited my kindness and the 1044 01:00:06,319 --> 01:00:09,079 Speaker 3: fact that I reached out to your program the signs 1045 01:00:09,119 --> 01:00:12,639 Speaker 3: that despite having had an unhappy childhood, I still want 1046 01:00:12,679 --> 01:00:15,319 Speaker 3: to treat others and myself well and want to find 1047 01:00:15,359 --> 01:00:18,319 Speaker 3: a deeper understanding about my childhood so I can have 1048 01:00:18,399 --> 01:00:22,039 Speaker 3: better relationships. We had a great conversation that lasted about 1049 01:00:22,039 --> 01:00:25,039 Speaker 3: an hour. I didn't blank out, but I do feel 1050 01:00:25,039 --> 01:00:27,439 Speaker 3: that because it was just a lot to process, I 1051 01:00:27,479 --> 01:00:30,839 Speaker 3: will remember more about it in the coming days. It 1052 01:00:30,879 --> 01:00:34,079 Speaker 3: was a very positive and loving experience, and my husband 1053 01:00:34,079 --> 01:00:36,559 Speaker 3: noted at the end that he doesn't doubt my love 1054 01:00:36,599 --> 01:00:38,679 Speaker 3: for him, but he would like it if I expressed 1055 01:00:38,759 --> 01:00:41,759 Speaker 3: that love more, which having heard that from him, I 1056 01:00:41,799 --> 01:00:44,999 Speaker 3: will do for me. The atmosphere was sort of charged 1057 01:00:45,039 --> 01:00:48,599 Speaker 3: in a very unfamiliar but I think positive way, and 1058 01:00:48,679 --> 01:00:53,039 Speaker 3: my body felt relaxed for assignment too. Speaking with my friend, 1059 01:00:53,599 --> 01:00:56,079 Speaker 3: it certainly felt unfamiliar to pick up the phone and 1060 01:00:56,119 --> 01:00:59,399 Speaker 3: call her. We chatted for a few minutes, and then 1061 01:00:59,439 --> 01:01:02,079 Speaker 3: I asked her if she had the experience of seeing 1062 01:01:02,079 --> 01:01:05,919 Speaker 3: her childhood in a way that significantly differed from her siblings. 1063 01:01:06,239 --> 01:01:09,039 Speaker 3: I could hear the surprise in her voice, maybe because 1064 01:01:09,039 --> 01:01:12,039 Speaker 3: we far more often than speak on the phone, but 1065 01:01:12,119 --> 01:01:14,879 Speaker 3: she answered my question openly. We laughed at parts and 1066 01:01:14,919 --> 01:01:18,079 Speaker 3: we commiserated at others, and I felt a connection through that. 1067 01:01:18,679 --> 01:01:20,719 Speaker 3: I'll see her soon, and I'm going to tell her 1068 01:01:20,759 --> 01:01:23,399 Speaker 3: how much I enjoyed that conversation, and that I think 1069 01:01:23,439 --> 01:01:26,999 Speaker 3: about our friendship a lot. Assignment three. Writing the letter 1070 01:01:27,039 --> 01:01:29,559 Speaker 3: to my mom, but reading it to my husband, this 1071 01:01:29,679 --> 01:01:32,559 Speaker 3: letter came flowing out of me. I noted how she 1072 01:01:32,599 --> 01:01:36,479 Speaker 3: could see my father's ragey behavior dictating the atmosphere of 1073 01:01:36,479 --> 01:01:39,119 Speaker 3: almost everything in the house, and how that left very 1074 01:01:39,119 --> 01:01:42,559 Speaker 3: little room for anyone to safely express their feelings. I 1075 01:01:42,599 --> 01:01:45,039 Speaker 3: wish that she could have taken me aside, somewhere safe 1076 01:01:45,079 --> 01:01:48,479 Speaker 3: to have these conversations, if only to say, you may 1077 01:01:48,479 --> 01:01:51,199 Speaker 3: not feel comfortable speaking with your dad around, but we 1078 01:01:51,319 --> 01:01:53,679 Speaker 3: need to do it for your sake and your benefit. 1079 01:01:54,439 --> 01:01:56,999 Speaker 3: My mom has often said that she's so thankful that 1080 01:01:57,039 --> 01:01:59,679 Speaker 3: I've never had something terrible happen to me. But I 1081 01:01:59,719 --> 01:02:02,039 Speaker 3: wrote to her that although I look okay, they are 1082 01:02:02,079 --> 01:02:04,519 Speaker 3: hollow parts inside, and she had a role in that. 1083 01:02:05,959 --> 01:02:08,119 Speaker 3: My mom often spent time with her best friend, with 1084 01:02:08,159 --> 01:02:10,999 Speaker 3: whom she had a deep frendchhip. She got to escape 1085 01:02:10,999 --> 01:02:14,359 Speaker 3: my father, and she had a confidant to discuss his behavior. 1086 01:02:14,879 --> 01:02:18,119 Speaker 3: But I realized last week after our talk that she 1087 01:02:18,159 --> 01:02:20,799 Speaker 3: didn't provide that escape for me, and that's a real 1088 01:02:20,839 --> 01:02:24,119 Speaker 3: failure on her part. Reading this letter, I noted I 1089 01:02:24,199 --> 01:02:26,839 Speaker 3: kept crossing my arms. I felt flat while I was 1090 01:02:26,879 --> 01:02:29,599 Speaker 3: reading it, but less so when I discussed it with 1091 01:02:29,639 --> 01:02:32,279 Speaker 3: my husband. We agreed that if I sent this letter 1092 01:02:32,279 --> 01:02:34,999 Speaker 3: to my mom, she would never respond to it, so 1093 01:02:35,159 --> 01:02:38,519 Speaker 3: fixed is she on only seeing good things. I feel 1094 01:02:38,599 --> 01:02:41,439 Speaker 3: very thankful to have had these three experiences. At the 1095 01:02:41,519 --> 01:02:43,359 Speaker 3: end of the day, the thoughts were right there, and 1096 01:02:43,399 --> 01:02:46,319 Speaker 3: I really didn't have a tough time expressing them. Made 1097 01:02:46,319 --> 01:02:49,359 Speaker 3: a couple interesting connections in my mind since talking with 1098 01:02:49,399 --> 01:02:51,759 Speaker 3: you both, and most of all, I've taken from it 1099 01:02:51,799 --> 01:02:55,839 Speaker 3: that a conversation won't automatically scale up into a screaming match. 1100 01:02:56,079 --> 01:02:56,439 Speaker 3: Thank you. 1101 01:02:59,839 --> 01:03:02,439 Speaker 2: So let's start with that conversation with her husband where 1102 01:03:02,479 --> 01:03:07,039 Speaker 2: she read to him how she felt about him. That 1103 01:03:07,199 --> 01:03:11,439 Speaker 2: sounded like such a powerful moment for the two of them, 1104 01:03:11,639 --> 01:03:15,559 Speaker 2: and as we suspected, he really needed to hear it, 1105 01:03:15,599 --> 01:03:18,479 Speaker 2: and then he even asked for more of it thereafter, 1106 01:03:18,639 --> 01:03:21,959 Speaker 2: and he was so moved by it, And to me, 1107 01:03:22,119 --> 01:03:26,199 Speaker 2: that just confirms what we suspected that although she has 1108 01:03:26,279 --> 01:03:30,399 Speaker 2: these internal emotional experiences, they don't get expressed outwardly enough 1109 01:03:30,679 --> 01:03:33,199 Speaker 2: the good or the bad, as we said, and here 1110 01:03:33,279 --> 01:03:36,439 Speaker 2: the good wasn't coming across as overtly as it might. 1111 01:03:36,559 --> 01:03:39,959 Speaker 2: So hopefully this opens an entire new way for her 1112 01:03:39,999 --> 01:03:43,319 Speaker 2: to communicate with her husband that will allow them much 1113 01:03:43,359 --> 01:03:44,719 Speaker 2: more closeness as a result. 1114 01:03:45,559 --> 01:03:47,039 Speaker 1: I like what you said about the good and the 1115 01:03:47,079 --> 01:03:49,999 Speaker 1: bad because I think sometimes when people are really afraid 1116 01:03:50,119 --> 01:03:54,919 Speaker 1: of sharing their feelings, they also aren't comfortable sharing the 1117 01:03:54,959 --> 01:03:58,919 Speaker 1: positive feelings, and that really keeps a distance in a 1118 01:03:58,959 --> 01:04:01,799 Speaker 1: relationship even when the positive feelings are there. And I 1119 01:04:01,879 --> 01:04:04,479 Speaker 1: was so moved when he was able to tell her, 1120 01:04:04,559 --> 01:04:06,599 Speaker 1: and it sounds like in a very gentle, loving way. 1121 01:04:07,039 --> 01:04:09,759 Speaker 1: I would like more of this. I think that will 1122 01:04:09,759 --> 01:04:12,759 Speaker 1: bring them so much closer, and I think she will 1123 01:04:12,799 --> 01:04:18,039 Speaker 1: get more as well from the reciprocity that's going to 1124 01:04:18,039 --> 01:04:18,479 Speaker 1: come from this. 1125 01:04:19,519 --> 01:04:22,359 Speaker 2: The second assignment that I was a little confused, to 1126 01:04:22,599 --> 01:04:25,279 Speaker 2: be honest, what we asked her to do was share 1127 01:04:25,319 --> 01:04:28,519 Speaker 2: something about herself with her friend, whatever it is, and 1128 01:04:28,999 --> 01:04:31,359 Speaker 2: make sure that her friends can stay on her, rather 1129 01:04:31,399 --> 01:04:35,359 Speaker 2: than revert the conversation back to the friend's feelings or needs. 1130 01:04:35,679 --> 01:04:37,719 Speaker 2: So she said she brought up this question about whether 1131 01:04:37,959 --> 01:04:41,359 Speaker 2: she or siblings had different perceptions. If she then followed 1132 01:04:41,399 --> 01:04:44,119 Speaker 2: that question with because for me, and she spoke about 1133 01:04:44,119 --> 01:04:47,799 Speaker 2: herself and the friend listened, great, But if she just 1134 01:04:47,959 --> 01:04:50,239 Speaker 2: asked a friend to do that, then there was a 1135 01:04:50,279 --> 01:04:52,239 Speaker 2: miss in terms of the point of that assignment, and 1136 01:04:52,319 --> 01:04:53,439 Speaker 2: I'm just not sure which it is. 1137 01:04:53,839 --> 01:04:56,039 Speaker 1: There was something else that was interesting in her update, 1138 01:04:56,079 --> 01:04:58,199 Speaker 1: which was that her mom had this confidant that she 1139 01:04:58,239 --> 01:05:02,519 Speaker 1: would go to to complain about Catherine's dad too, And 1140 01:05:02,679 --> 01:05:05,759 Speaker 1: it sounds a little bit like a mirror of Catherine's 1141 01:05:05,839 --> 01:05:09,719 Speaker 1: friend coming to Catherine to complain about the friend's husband. 1142 01:05:10,359 --> 01:05:12,439 Speaker 1: And I think that some of the resentment might be 1143 01:05:12,559 --> 01:05:16,599 Speaker 1: wrapped up in that parallel dynamic that's going on that 1144 01:05:16,639 --> 01:05:19,359 Speaker 1: we hadn't heard about during session. So it's just another 1145 01:05:19,399 --> 01:05:22,199 Speaker 1: thing for Catherine to think about as she thinks about 1146 01:05:22,679 --> 01:05:25,719 Speaker 1: what the source of her anger and resentment really are 1147 01:05:26,119 --> 01:05:28,479 Speaker 1: when it comes to this friend and her husband. 1148 01:05:28,919 --> 01:05:31,599 Speaker 2: Right her third assignment, writing the letter to her mother, 1149 01:05:31,879 --> 01:05:34,399 Speaker 2: I was glad to hear that she was commenting on 1150 01:05:35,079 --> 01:05:38,319 Speaker 2: how she feels hollow internally and that her mother has 1151 01:05:38,399 --> 01:05:41,159 Speaker 2: something directly to do with that, and wishing her mother 1152 01:05:41,279 --> 01:05:45,519 Speaker 2: had taken her aside and legitimized conversations and talking about 1153 01:05:45,559 --> 01:05:49,119 Speaker 2: feelings with her. I think those were very important things. 1154 01:05:49,079 --> 01:05:51,039 Speaker 1: And I think the important part of this too was 1155 01:05:51,079 --> 01:05:53,439 Speaker 1: being able to share it so it's not just something 1156 01:05:53,439 --> 01:05:56,239 Speaker 1: that she is holding inside, because I think that's where 1157 01:05:56,239 --> 01:05:59,959 Speaker 1: all of those letters were coming from. And we always 1158 01:05:59,999 --> 01:06:02,279 Speaker 1: say choose your audience well in terms of who you're 1159 01:06:02,319 --> 01:06:05,519 Speaker 1: going to share yourself with in a very vulnerable way, 1160 01:06:05,679 --> 01:06:08,319 Speaker 1: and her husband was it sounds like a great audience. 1161 01:06:08,399 --> 01:06:10,439 Speaker 1: I also think about that friend who lives in another 1162 01:06:10,479 --> 01:06:13,679 Speaker 1: city that she also feels very close to, and one 1163 01:06:13,679 --> 01:06:15,399 Speaker 1: of the things we also wanted her to do was 1164 01:06:15,439 --> 01:06:20,479 Speaker 1: to see about cultivating friendships that feel better to her. 1165 01:06:21,159 --> 01:06:24,159 Speaker 1: And I think that the exercises that we gave her 1166 01:06:24,319 --> 01:06:28,119 Speaker 1: our first step to cultivating all kinds of relationships, including 1167 01:06:28,119 --> 01:06:31,879 Speaker 1: a closer relationship with her husband, a better relationship with 1168 01:06:31,999 --> 01:06:35,479 Speaker 1: her friend, and maybe cultivating other friendships and mostly a 1169 01:06:35,519 --> 01:06:37,319 Speaker 1: better relationship with herself. 1170 01:06:38,119 --> 01:06:40,359 Speaker 2: I agree, and so I think that in the one week, 1171 01:06:40,879 --> 01:06:45,079 Speaker 2: she's taken quite a few steps and gone quite a journey. 1172 01:06:45,239 --> 01:06:47,119 Speaker 1: Yeah, as you said, it's an opening, and I think 1173 01:06:47,119 --> 01:06:53,239 Speaker 1: it's a fantastic place to start. Next week, a woman 1174 01:06:53,239 --> 01:06:56,199 Speaker 1: who loves her husband worries about his anger toward their 1175 01:06:56,279 --> 01:06:59,279 Speaker 1: young children and considers whether she should leave him to 1176 01:06:59,319 --> 01:07:00,239 Speaker 1: protect them. 1177 01:07:00,479 --> 01:07:02,519 Speaker 3: It's not healthy for our daughter. 1178 01:07:02,959 --> 01:07:04,999 Speaker 1: You need to get therapy or we're going to leave 1179 01:07:05,039 --> 01:07:08,159 Speaker 1: so that I can protect her. If you're enjoying our podcast, 1180 01:07:08,439 --> 01:07:10,719 Speaker 1: don't forget to subscribe for free so that you don't 1181 01:07:10,719 --> 01:07:14,279 Speaker 1: miss any episodes, and please help support Dear Therapists by 1182 01:07:14,319 --> 01:07:16,559 Speaker 1: telling your friends about it and leaving a review on 1183 01:07:16,599 --> 01:07:20,119 Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts. Your reviews really help people to find the show. 1184 01:07:20,399 --> 01:07:22,639 Speaker 2: If you have a dilemma you'd like to discuss with us, 1185 01:07:22,959 --> 01:07:28,039 Speaker 2: email us at Laurie and Guy at iHeartMedia. Dot Com. 1186 01:07:28,119 --> 01:07:32,359 Speaker 2: Our executive producer is Noel Brown. We're produced and edited 1187 01:07:32,439 --> 01:07:37,079 Speaker 2: by Josh Fisher. Additional editing support by Helena Rosen, John 1188 01:07:37,239 --> 01:07:42,159 Speaker 2: Washington and Zachary Fisher. Our interns are Ben Bernstein, Emily 1189 01:07:42,199 --> 01:07:46,519 Speaker 2: Gutierrez and Silver Lifton. And special thanks to our podcast 1190 01:07:46,559 --> 01:07:49,839 Speaker 2: Fairy Godmother Katie Curic. You can't wait to see you 1191 01:07:49,879 --> 01:07:53,439 Speaker 2: at our next session. Deo Therapist is a production of 1192 01:07:53,519 --> 01:08:00,079 Speaker 2: Iheartradioishfood