1
00:00:02,920 --> 00:00:08,080
Speaker 1: This is the primal scream of a dying regime. Pray

2
00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,600
Speaker 1: for our enemies because we're going to medieval on these people.

3
00:00:12,840 --> 00:00:14,080
Speaker 1: You've not got a free shot.

4
00:00:14,160 --> 00:00:17,599
Speaker 2: All these networks lying about the people, the people have

5
00:00:17,640 --> 00:00:19,319
Speaker 2: had a belly full of bit I.

6
00:00:19,200 --> 00:00:21,079
Speaker 1: Know you don't like hearing that. I know you've tried

7
00:00:21,079 --> 00:00:22,319
Speaker 1: to do everything in the world to stop there, but

8
00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:24,320
Speaker 1: you're not going to stop it. It's going to happen.

9
00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:26,639
Speaker 1: And where do people like that go to share the

10
00:00:26,640 --> 00:00:31,120
Speaker 1: big line? Mega media? I wish in my soul, I

11
00:00:31,160 --> 00:00:34,000
Speaker 1: wish that any of these people had a conscience.

12
00:00:34,680 --> 00:00:37,879
Speaker 2: Ask yourself, what is my task and what is my purpose?

13
00:00:38,520 --> 00:00:43,239
Speaker 2: If that answer is to save my country, this country.

14
00:00:42,960 --> 00:00:52,880
Speaker 1: Will be saved. War Room. Here's your host, Stephen Kvan. Okay, Welcome.

15
00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,120
Speaker 2: It is Saturday, twenty nine November, in the year of

16
00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:58,200
Speaker 2: for Lord, twenty twenty five, and this show I've wanted

17
00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:01,360
Speaker 2: to do for a long time. Special we have the

18
00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,800
Speaker 2: author Sam Tannenhouse joins us. He just wrote the definitive

19
00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:09,880
Speaker 2: actually the authorized a biography of William F. Buckley, but

20
00:01:09,959 --> 00:01:12,839
Speaker 2: it's titled The Life and the Revolution That Changed America.

21
00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,080
Speaker 2: We're going to talk a lot about both Bud Buckley's

22
00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:17,160
Speaker 2: Life and the Revolution, but we're also going to talk

23
00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:20,120
Speaker 2: about his other books. Sam, thank you so much. Honored

24
00:01:20,120 --> 00:01:21,759
Speaker 2: to have you in here. This for a long time

25
00:01:21,920 --> 00:01:24,800
Speaker 2: a pleasure. We've talked on the phone. I interview for stories,

26
00:01:24,800 --> 00:01:26,959
Speaker 2: but then we're mad. So this is great, just incredible.

27
00:01:29,240 --> 00:01:34,000
Speaker 1: I wouldn't your books. First off, you've written three.

28
00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:42,120
Speaker 2: Quite frankly, you're a non observant, secular liberal Jewish guy

29
00:01:42,800 --> 00:01:46,160
Speaker 2: from New York lives in Connecticut now but editor of

30
00:01:46,200 --> 00:01:50,600
Speaker 2: the New York Times book review, so you're not a

31
00:01:51,360 --> 00:01:54,760
Speaker 2: wouldn't would say a part of conservative inc or maga.

32
00:01:55,360 --> 00:01:58,080
Speaker 2: But I tell people if you read your three books

33
00:01:58,080 --> 00:02:02,960
Speaker 2: on conservatismok, on Wittaker Chambers, which is quite frankly a masterpiece,

34
00:02:03,680 --> 00:02:06,040
Speaker 2: your book on Buckley, which I think this is a masterpiece,

35
00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,600
Speaker 2: and then you read the book you started with the

36
00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,200
Speaker 2: Death of Conservatism, which had a massive influence on me

37
00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,320
Speaker 2: when I first read it and Andrew Breitbart back in

38
00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:16,240
Speaker 2: two thousand and nine, I think the book came out.

39
00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,600
Speaker 2: How does someone with your background be the best chronicler

40
00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,320
Speaker 2: of really getting to the heart of what conservatism is

41
00:02:24,960 --> 00:02:26,440
Speaker 2: and the impact it's had in America.

42
00:02:26,919 --> 00:02:29,600
Speaker 1: Well, so great of you to describe me that way, Steve.

43
00:02:29,960 --> 00:02:32,600
Speaker 1: Not everyone else does. Some of our friends on the

44
00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:34,960
Speaker 1: right of some trouble with it. Although I have to

45
00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:38,040
Speaker 1: say I hear time and time again and that all

46
00:02:38,080 --> 00:02:41,640
Speaker 1: sorts of people read these books Death.

47
00:02:41,480 --> 00:02:44,919
Speaker 2: Of Conservatism Conservative did not want to touch it. That's

48
00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:46,720
Speaker 2: one of the reasons I told Andrew. I said, Hey,

49
00:02:47,120 --> 00:02:49,959
Speaker 2: Nash Review Weekly Standard, all these guys are on touching

50
00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,480
Speaker 2: this book. This book is very powerful, but you cannot.

51
00:02:53,560 --> 00:02:58,760
Speaker 2: If you want to read about lived Christianity and it's

52
00:02:59,360 --> 00:03:04,120
Speaker 2: worldview about the atheism of Marxism in its fight against that,

53
00:03:04,520 --> 00:03:06,640
Speaker 2: there's no better vehicle to read that than the Witdker

54
00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:09,200
Speaker 2: Chambers biography, right, I mean that tells the entire story.

55
00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:13,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, because of Chambers himself. You know it's interesting, h Steve.

56
00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:19,640
Speaker 1: Right before September eleventh, all those years ago, when George W.

57
00:03:19,720 --> 00:03:22,760
Speaker 1: Bush was present, they did a hundredth anniversary. You know,

58
00:03:22,760 --> 00:03:25,960
Speaker 1: Buckley's hundredth anniversary is coming up right almost as we speak,

59
00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:30,800
Speaker 1: and they did one on Chambers. And so they invited

60
00:03:30,840 --> 00:03:32,480
Speaker 1: me because my book had come out. It came out

61
00:03:32,480 --> 00:03:34,960
Speaker 1: in ninety seven, and here it was two thousand and one.

62
00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:37,480
Speaker 1: It's the summer of two thousand and one, and I

63
00:03:37,520 --> 00:03:41,160
Speaker 1: get into the elevator and Robert Bork was in it,

64
00:03:41,240 --> 00:03:43,880
Speaker 1: and I'd given a talk Ralph to Taladonna, remember him,

65
00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:47,520
Speaker 1: he'd given a talk. Those are pretty right wing figure, prettyertive.

66
00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:50,520
Speaker 2: That's that's the that's the three senior guys in the

67
00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:51,440
Speaker 2: conservative movement.

68
00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:54,200
Speaker 1: And Judge Borker right, remember everybody called him Judge bork

69
00:03:54,240 --> 00:03:56,360
Speaker 1: And he's in the elevator with me. He said, look,

70
00:03:56,360 --> 00:03:58,360
Speaker 1: I really like the Chambers book. What are you doing next?

71
00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,160
Speaker 1: So I'm going to do Bill Buckley's Bill Buckley. How

72
00:04:02,200 --> 00:04:07,160
Speaker 1: could you go from the giant Whittaker Chambers to Bill Buckley?

73
00:04:07,240 --> 00:04:11,320
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking, you're not getting it, because yeah, Chambers

74
00:04:11,320 --> 00:04:14,480
Speaker 1: and Buckley are two very different kinds of guys, but

75
00:04:15,000 --> 00:04:17,120
Speaker 1: they were. They were almost like, tell our audience. We

76
00:04:17,680 --> 00:04:21,039
Speaker 1: have a lot of younger audience too. Let's start with

77
00:04:21,480 --> 00:04:24,160
Speaker 1: who is Whittaker Chambers and why is it so important

78
00:04:24,240 --> 00:04:27,400
Speaker 1: for people today, particularly young people, to understand his story.

79
00:04:27,760 --> 00:04:30,560
Speaker 1: Ritaker Chambers born in nineteen oh one died in nineteen

80
00:04:30,720 --> 00:04:36,719
Speaker 1: sixty one was the founder of the modern anti conservative,

81
00:04:37,279 --> 00:04:41,159
Speaker 1: i mean anti communist movement that was based on a

82
00:04:41,240 --> 00:04:44,599
Speaker 1: Christian conservatism, and it sounds very different from what we

83
00:04:44,640 --> 00:04:49,120
Speaker 1: read today because Chambers came out of the left. And

84
00:04:49,120 --> 00:04:51,680
Speaker 1: you'll ask, well, why am I writing about these guys.

85
00:04:52,000 --> 00:04:55,360
Speaker 1: It's because the basis of all this is really the

86
00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:01,000
Speaker 1: old American left, the kind of pro communist, pro socialist,

87
00:05:01,520 --> 00:05:05,640
Speaker 1: turn everything upside down left wing in America. Chambers was

88
00:05:05,680 --> 00:05:08,400
Speaker 1: a prodigy in that movement in its big years in

89
00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,960
Speaker 1: the nineteen twenties and thirties, became an underground.

90
00:05:11,680 --> 00:05:14,520
Speaker 2: People don't realize how close the country after the Great

91
00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,680
Speaker 2: Depression and Roosevelt and a lot of our audience h Roosevelt,

92
00:05:18,760 --> 00:05:21,800
Speaker 2: but he was capitalism trying to provide a solution because

93
00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:23,760
Speaker 2: the country could have very much slipped into what was

94
00:05:23,760 --> 00:05:27,040
Speaker 2: happening in Europe, to socialism, communism, or.

95
00:05:27,000 --> 00:05:28,560
Speaker 1: Some sort of great revolution of this.

96
00:05:28,520 --> 00:05:31,760
Speaker 2: Country given the impact that the Great Depression had, Yeah,

97
00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:32,320
Speaker 2: very much.

98
00:05:32,360 --> 00:05:35,920
Speaker 1: So that's why the hard left always hated Roosevelt. They

99
00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:37,920
Speaker 1: thought he was kind of he was cheating, you know,

100
00:05:38,000 --> 00:05:41,080
Speaker 1: it's camouflage, he's because he's going to save the system

101
00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:44,840
Speaker 1: rather than destroy it. Right well, Chambers joined the Communist

102
00:05:44,920 --> 00:05:47,480
Speaker 1: Party in the mid nineteen twenties after he dropped out

103
00:05:47,520 --> 00:05:52,960
Speaker 1: of College Golumbia University and became dedicated Soviet agent, not

104
00:05:53,120 --> 00:05:56,000
Speaker 1: just a communist, a Soviet agent, became a spy. And

105
00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:58,400
Speaker 1: right here in watch just talk about that.

106
00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:01,760
Speaker 2: Because this infects the Buckley book and whole movement that

107
00:06:02,240 --> 00:06:05,720
Speaker 2: the Soviets and the KGB right at the time, they

108
00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:08,080
Speaker 2: had an active program to kind of recrut what they

109
00:06:08,080 --> 00:06:10,919
Speaker 2: felt with the best rights in this very city to

110
00:06:11,040 --> 00:06:13,400
Speaker 2: actually be active agents of the Soviet Union.

111
00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:16,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, they infiltrated, They infiltrated the New Deal. And I

112
00:06:16,360 --> 00:06:19,000
Speaker 1: remember I was doing a documentary once on Joe McCarthy,

113
00:06:19,400 --> 00:06:21,600
Speaker 1: another guy Buckley was very close to, and Chambers had

114
00:06:21,600 --> 00:06:23,920
Speaker 1: a different view of McCarthy, and we can get into

115
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:28,200
Speaker 1: that later, but and the documentarian, she did a pretty

116
00:06:28,200 --> 00:06:29,840
Speaker 1: good job. At one point she said to me, well,

117
00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,560
Speaker 1: how many active agents were there in these years, the

118
00:06:33,640 --> 00:06:37,040
Speaker 1: nineteen thirties, during the New Deal, before World War Two?

119
00:06:37,279 --> 00:06:42,039
Speaker 1: So I have to remember the Nazis and the Soviets

120
00:06:42,040 --> 00:06:44,680
Speaker 1: are kind of circling each other. Hitler and Stalin are

121
00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:46,479
Speaker 1: circling each other. We don't know which way it's going

122
00:06:46,520 --> 00:06:49,680
Speaker 1: to go, said, so, how many people are in the

123
00:06:49,720 --> 00:06:53,560
Speaker 1: communist apparatuses they called it in these underground cells. And

124
00:06:53,600 --> 00:06:56,719
Speaker 1: I said, well, maybe seventy five. And she said, well

125
00:06:56,800 --> 00:06:59,080
Speaker 1: is that a lot? And I said, well, depends on

126
00:06:59,160 --> 00:07:02,400
Speaker 1: who they were what they were doing. Right, So if

127
00:07:02,400 --> 00:07:04,359
Speaker 1: it's somebody, if it's Alger Hiss.

128
00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:08,520
Speaker 2: And the guy that was a treasury on the dollar,

129
00:07:10,920 --> 00:07:13,119
Speaker 2: if you have seventy five ground dunes, it doesn't matter.

130
00:07:13,280 --> 00:07:16,760
Speaker 2: But if you have bright young things that are in

131
00:07:16,840 --> 00:07:19,040
Speaker 2: a movement that you know, in the in the New

132
00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:21,960
Speaker 2: Deal and can shape things, you make a big impact.

133
00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:24,680
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, we can get into that a little bit

134
00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:27,960
Speaker 1: with McCarthy too, because you know, Buckley was a big

135
00:07:28,080 --> 00:07:31,320
Speaker 1: champion of Joe McCarthy and actually made what I think

136
00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:34,160
Speaker 1: is a pretty powerful argument for McCarthy, which is in

137
00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:34,760
Speaker 1: this book.

138
00:07:36,760 --> 00:07:41,000
Speaker 2: The McCarthy section alone in this book makes it worthwhile

139
00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,720
Speaker 2: for people to buy just about our current time today

140
00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:51,120
Speaker 2: because you make a brilliant observation on McCarthy that McCarthy

141
00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,520
Speaker 2: was so powerful, not because the facts he brought, but

142
00:07:55,640 --> 00:07:58,160
Speaker 2: the way he said things that he really got a

143
00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:00,560
Speaker 2: great He was the first really grassroots. I mean you

144
00:08:00,600 --> 00:08:03,040
Speaker 2: had Father Coughlin and other guys before the war, the

145
00:08:03,080 --> 00:08:08,080
Speaker 2: America firsters. But McCarthy, now that Communism was becoming a reality,

146
00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:11,559
Speaker 2: and we had beaten the fascist. He talked in a way,

147
00:08:11,640 --> 00:08:15,120
Speaker 2: in a street vernacular, in a way he talked that

148
00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:20,360
Speaker 2: galvanized people's We don't know all the the the theoretical

149
00:08:20,440 --> 00:08:22,760
Speaker 2: things on Marxist Leninism, but we know these are bad

150
00:08:22,800 --> 00:08:24,840
Speaker 2: guys and want to They want to change America, and

151
00:08:24,840 --> 00:08:27,640
Speaker 2: we want them out. What your description of McCarthy and

152
00:08:27,680 --> 00:08:31,320
Speaker 2: Buckley's singer McCarthy is quite frankly stunning, and it speaks

153
00:08:31,360 --> 00:08:32,480
Speaker 2: to the moment we're in today.

154
00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,400
Speaker 1: Well, what Buckley saw, Steve y'all got this too, was

155
00:08:36,679 --> 00:08:41,040
Speaker 1: Buckley was a Catholic. Macarthy's a Catholic, and there's no institution.

156
00:08:41,160 --> 00:08:45,720
Speaker 1: Bobby Kennedy was a Catholic. Listen, Jack, Jack Kennedy walked

157
00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,800
Speaker 1: out of the room if he heard somebody make a

158
00:08:48,840 --> 00:08:51,640
Speaker 1: negative comment about Joe McCarthy. You know this right. If

159
00:08:51,640 --> 00:08:54,200
Speaker 1: he was in a gathering like this and somebody attacked

160
00:08:54,240 --> 00:08:57,280
Speaker 1: Joe McCarthy, Jack Kenny would say I'm sorry and he'd

161
00:08:57,320 --> 00:08:58,040
Speaker 1: walk out of the room.

162
00:08:58,080 --> 00:09:01,400
Speaker 2: Well, the standard also in this book, not I told

163
00:09:01,400 --> 00:09:03,040
Speaker 2: you before when we set you up to come, is

164
00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:09,400
Speaker 2: that the modern conservative movement, but the organized Protestant churches.

165
00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,680
Speaker 2: They don't make a big deal about McCarthy's Catholicism. I

166
00:09:12,679 --> 00:09:16,840
Speaker 2: mean Buckley's Catholicism. It imbued everything. I mean Catholicism and

167
00:09:16,880 --> 00:09:20,079
Speaker 2: anti communism were kind of his two things, right and

168
00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:26,000
Speaker 2: being against the liberal movement. But there was definitely a suppression.

169
00:09:26,000 --> 00:09:28,480
Speaker 2: In fact, when God and Man at Yale comes out,

170
00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:34,160
Speaker 2: the Yale attacks the book by going to different intellectuals

171
00:09:34,160 --> 00:09:36,440
Speaker 2: and say, this is the problem with the kid who

172
00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:36,839
Speaker 2: comes here.

173
00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:39,040
Speaker 1: There's two catholic right right, I mean they had the

174
00:09:39,120 --> 00:09:41,400
Speaker 1: quota is limiting catholic They called him an agent of

175
00:09:41,440 --> 00:09:44,240
Speaker 1: the Vatican. In nineteen fifty one, they said, well, we

176
00:09:44,320 --> 00:09:48,840
Speaker 1: do have a conspiracy in America. This is what credentialed

177
00:09:49,200 --> 00:09:52,800
Speaker 1: liberal critics of God and Man at Yale. Buckley's first

178
00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:56,040
Speaker 1: book wrote we do have a conspiracy in America, and

179
00:09:56,040 --> 00:09:59,040
Speaker 1: it's run by the Vatican, not by the communists. Let's

180
00:09:59,040 --> 00:09:59,840
Speaker 1: go back to Chambers.

181
00:10:00,120 --> 00:10:03,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, for the here's the thing I think is powerful,

182
00:10:03,240 --> 00:10:04,839
Speaker 2: and I want people to buy the Buckley book, and

183
00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,520
Speaker 2: if you get a chance, get the Witdaker Chambers book too.

184
00:10:08,640 --> 00:10:12,000
Speaker 2: You talk these are not just biographies of individuals. You

185
00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:14,360
Speaker 2: talk about the age that they lived in. So it's

186
00:10:14,400 --> 00:10:16,400
Speaker 2: really much The book is the subtitle of the Life

187
00:10:16,400 --> 00:10:20,160
Speaker 2: and the Revolution that Change America Whittaker Chambers. Although a biography,

188
00:10:20,480 --> 00:10:22,800
Speaker 2: you get the best sense of the nineteen thirties, the

189
00:10:22,840 --> 00:10:25,760
Speaker 2: turmoil that the country is in before World War Two

190
00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,720
Speaker 2: because of the economic conditions of the Great Depression, and

191
00:10:28,720 --> 00:10:34,120
Speaker 2: how and what Marxism did to really really drive Whittaker

192
00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:37,600
Speaker 2: Chambers Christianity even more, right, I mean, this is why

193
00:10:37,600 --> 00:10:39,640
Speaker 2: he became essentially really became a Christian.

194
00:10:39,840 --> 00:10:43,520
Speaker 1: Well, the brilliance of Chambers was that he saw Marxism

195
00:10:43,520 --> 00:10:46,120
Speaker 1: itself was a kind of religion, right, It's kind of

196
00:10:46,160 --> 00:10:50,679
Speaker 1: bad religion. And what that means is the dedicated followers

197
00:10:50,679 --> 00:10:53,080
Speaker 1: of it are going to be more committed to their

198
00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:58,319
Speaker 1: politics than the neutral kind of technocratic Well, let's tinker

199
00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,240
Speaker 1: at the edges, see what we make the system work

200
00:11:00,280 --> 00:11:02,840
Speaker 1: a little bit. And Chambers would say, are you effing

201
00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,599
Speaker 1: kidding me? Now? He was very elevated. Chambers spoke seven languages.

202
00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:11,400
Speaker 1: He read Dante in Italian during the Algi his pertry case,

203
00:11:11,559 --> 00:11:17,360
Speaker 1: you see you see Chambers reading the Purgatory origin in

204
00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:19,800
Speaker 1: the original Italian. He was he was a brilliant guy,

205
00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:22,400
Speaker 1: and that's what drew me to him. By the way,

206
00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:24,480
Speaker 1: you know, we're asking me, Stevel, why am I writing

207
00:11:24,480 --> 00:11:27,400
Speaker 1: about these guys. I grew up in a household that

208
00:11:27,640 --> 00:11:36,760
Speaker 1: was your classic kind of aspiring, assimilated second generation Jewish Americans.

209
00:11:36,920 --> 00:11:40,319
Speaker 1: My father was a college professor political scientist. He was

210
00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:41,920
Speaker 1: the one who had me read Witness when I was

211
00:11:41,960 --> 00:11:44,520
Speaker 1: fourteen years old. Chambers was great memoir, said you have

212
00:11:44,600 --> 00:11:47,480
Speaker 1: to read this. This is the greatest book on anti

213
00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:51,800
Speaker 1: communism by an ex communist. My father told me my

214
00:11:51,840 --> 00:11:54,120
Speaker 1: favorite how old we read? I was fourteen. My father

215
00:11:54,240 --> 00:11:58,120
Speaker 1: was a totally classic liberal. It broke his heart in

216
00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:01,560
Speaker 1: nineteen seventy two when he had to vote for George McGovern.

217
00:12:01,760 --> 00:12:04,040
Speaker 1: He didn't want to, but he did. Right, so we

218
00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,079
Speaker 1: know who those guys were. But the thing that really

219
00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:10,840
Speaker 1: got to him was the kind of papering over of

220
00:12:10,880 --> 00:12:14,160
Speaker 1: the facts about communism. That was very big for Buckley too.

221
00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,400
Speaker 1: Buckley would take up liberal congressmen like Alert Lowenstein, the

222
00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:21,480
Speaker 1: Liberal Democrat, because he knew it was anti communist. People

223
00:12:21,559 --> 00:12:25,200
Speaker 1: think that's a joke today, It was not. I mean

224
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:25,840
Speaker 1: that was.

225
00:12:25,840 --> 00:12:28,160
Speaker 2: One of the hardest some of the hardest anti communists

226
00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:29,239
Speaker 2: actually were Democrats.

227
00:12:29,320 --> 00:12:32,200
Speaker 1: It was a total threat to the to the you know,

228
00:12:32,240 --> 00:12:35,439
Speaker 1: to the freedom of the world. Chambers knew it. Chambers

229
00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:37,120
Speaker 1: put his life on the line. You know. One thing

230
00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:39,640
Speaker 1: he used to point out about his memoir witness, because

231
00:12:39,679 --> 00:12:42,559
Speaker 1: Chambers was a linguist, he was a classical linguist, and

232
00:12:42,600 --> 00:12:46,040
Speaker 1: in Greek witness is the same word as martyr. He

233
00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,200
Speaker 1: was going to put himself out there, and so he

234
00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:53,000
Speaker 1: took the risk right famous lines during the Hiss confrontation

235
00:12:53,400 --> 00:12:57,559
Speaker 1: right here in Washington nineteen forty eight, Chambers has testified

236
00:12:57,559 --> 00:13:01,680
Speaker 1: he's broken with the party, He's decided the and this

237
00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:02,880
Speaker 1: is in the post war.

238
00:13:02,920 --> 00:13:07,080
Speaker 2: People should understand e n for McCarthy, because everything's everything

239
00:13:07,160 --> 00:13:08,120
Speaker 2: started with McCarthy.

240
00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:08,480
Speaker 1: It didn't.

241
00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,680
Speaker 2: It started towards the end of the war with the

242
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:15,760
Speaker 2: House on American Activities that people realized that something was

243
00:13:15,800 --> 00:13:17,679
Speaker 2: going on in the war, and the Soviet Union was

244
00:13:17,760 --> 00:13:20,160
Speaker 2: rising in power, clearly in military power. They had been

245
00:13:20,200 --> 00:13:23,240
Speaker 2: really the nation that had destroyed the Wehrmacht, right, and

246
00:13:23,320 --> 00:13:25,520
Speaker 2: so people were concerned about infiltration and everything. So the

247
00:13:26,120 --> 00:13:30,520
Speaker 2: anti communism movement really started even at the end of

248
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:31,160
Speaker 2: World War two.

249
00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:33,160
Speaker 1: By this time it's an official part of the apparatus

250
00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:37,360
Speaker 1: here in DC. Yes, that's right. And Chambers early on

251
00:13:37,480 --> 00:13:43,640
Speaker 1: in nineteen thirty nine, when the notorious Pact had been

252
00:13:43,679 --> 00:13:46,000
Speaker 1: signed between the Nazis and the Soviet is that what

253
00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:46,880
Speaker 1: drove him over the edge.

254
00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:48,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, because they had fought the Nazis so long in

255
00:13:48,960 --> 00:13:51,160
Speaker 2: the thirties, and now to have Stalin.

256
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:52,960
Speaker 1: And Hitler do a deal. He already broke away a

257
00:13:53,000 --> 00:13:55,080
Speaker 1: movement by them because he saw where it was added

258
00:13:55,440 --> 00:13:58,800
Speaker 1: his bosses. This stuff sounds crazy, but you have to

259
00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:00,680
Speaker 1: read it because you know it's right there in the story.

260
00:14:01,080 --> 00:14:04,760
Speaker 1: As early as nineteen thirty seven he had a Russian boss,

261
00:14:04,800 --> 00:14:08,520
Speaker 1: a spymaster. So at this point Chambers is living in

262
00:14:08,720 --> 00:14:12,280
Speaker 1: Baltimore with near his friend Alger Hiss. Alderhiss is working

263
00:14:12,320 --> 00:14:15,480
Speaker 1: for the State Department. Chambers is coming to Washington and

264
00:14:15,559 --> 00:14:19,120
Speaker 1: picking up documents from his contacts like Harry Dexter White

265
00:14:19,120 --> 00:14:22,120
Speaker 1: in the Treasury Department, the guy who later wrote the

266
00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,040
Speaker 1: morganhaw Plan for World War Two in Bretton Woods.

267
00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:26,880
Speaker 2: Bretton Wood, I mean, this is one of the towering

268
00:14:27,040 --> 00:14:29,080
Speaker 2: intellectual financial All this stuff is going on.

269
00:14:29,160 --> 00:14:33,120
Speaker 1: Chambers is the courier. Chambers has got the brilliant languages. Right,

270
00:14:33,200 --> 00:14:38,240
Speaker 1: he's got that, the Columbia education, all this stuff, and hey.

271
00:14:37,960 --> 00:14:39,640
Speaker 2: We're gonna take your commercial break. I want to get

272
00:14:39,640 --> 00:14:41,800
Speaker 2: to the punchline of the story. I want to hold

273
00:14:41,840 --> 00:14:44,880
Speaker 2: him on edge. Sam Tannehouse is with us. He's going

274
00:14:44,960 --> 00:14:47,520
Speaker 2: to be with us for the entire morning. We're going

275
00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:51,320
Speaker 2: to talk about really the nation and conservatism from really

276
00:14:51,360 --> 00:14:54,800
Speaker 2: the nineteen twenties all the way up. You actually finished

277
00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:59,320
Speaker 2: Buckley's book Ends where the Death of Conservatism takes up,

278
00:14:59,320 --> 00:14:59,680
Speaker 2: which is a.

279
00:14:59,720 --> 00:15:03,440
Speaker 1: Bret Skill America's Voice. Family. Are you on Getter yet? No?

280
00:15:03,840 --> 00:15:06,880
Speaker 1: What are you waiting for? It's free, it's uncensored, and

281
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:09,800
Speaker 1: it's where all the biggest voices in conservative media are

282
00:15:09,840 --> 00:15:13,800
Speaker 1: speaking out. Download the Getter app right now. It's totally free.

283
00:15:13,800 --> 00:15:16,560
Speaker 2: It's where I've put up exclusively all of my content

284
00:15:16,760 --> 00:15:17,640
Speaker 2: twenty four hours a day.

285
00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:19,960
Speaker 1: You want to know what Steve Banner is thinking? Go together.

286
00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:23,240
Speaker 1: That's right. You can follow all of your favorite Steve Banner,

287
00:15:23,400 --> 00:15:26,840
Speaker 1: Charlie Kirk, Jack, the Soviet and so many more. Download

288
00:15:26,880 --> 00:15:28,880
Speaker 1: the Getter app now, Sign up for free and be

289
00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:29,960
Speaker 1: part of the new book.

290
00:15:30,000 --> 00:15:33,160
Speaker 2: If Sam tennen House is our guest, the book is

291
00:15:33,560 --> 00:15:38,280
Speaker 2: Buckley The Life and the Revolution that changed America. Like

292
00:15:38,360 --> 00:15:41,160
Speaker 2: I said his Wittaker Chambers book, in his Buckley book,

293
00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:42,440
Speaker 2: if you want to take a history of the United

294
00:15:42,480 --> 00:15:45,400
Speaker 2: States from the nineteen twenties all the way up to

295
00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:48,800
Speaker 2: basically the turn of the century, you can't get a

296
00:15:48,800 --> 00:15:52,480
Speaker 2: better two books to really tell you about America, what

297
00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:54,920
Speaker 2: we went through, and how the conservative movement really kind

298
00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,280
Speaker 2: of started, the modern conservative movement started. And then if

299
00:15:57,280 --> 00:15:59,440
Speaker 2: you read Death of the Conservatism you see how the

300
00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:02,440
Speaker 2: conservative it I think, ended in the rise of populous

301
00:16:02,560 --> 00:16:05,520
Speaker 2: nationalism with the Mega movement is today, we're in Baltimore,

302
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:06,400
Speaker 2: whatever Chambers.

303
00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,400
Speaker 1: So Chambers is an underground spy for what was then

304
00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:13,520
Speaker 1: called the NKVD. It's what we know is the KGB.

305
00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:17,560
Speaker 1: It's really military espionage. She's meeting with a group of people,

306
00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:20,440
Speaker 1: about a dozen of them, who are giving him documents.

307
00:16:20,800 --> 00:16:22,960
Speaker 1: And you think, well, who cares if guy like Algie

308
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,680
Speaker 1: Hiss in the stage apartment is giving him cables, diplomatic cables. Well,

309
00:16:27,720 --> 00:16:30,160
Speaker 1: because the cables are sent in code, and you give

310
00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:32,960
Speaker 1: them to the Soviets and guess what they've got the codes?

311
00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:37,200
Speaker 1: So Fdr Franklin Roosevelt has been a naval officer, started

312
00:16:37,280 --> 00:16:42,080
Speaker 1: switching the navy. Yeah, Secretary of the Navy under Woodrow Wilson, Right,

313
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:46,640
Speaker 1: so he starts switching the codes. They realized there's a problem.

314
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:50,600
Speaker 1: So after nineteen thirty nine, you now have the Pact

315
00:16:50,720 --> 00:16:52,880
Speaker 1: between the Soviets and the Nazis. And that's in the

316
00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:53,560
Speaker 1: United States.

317
00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:56,960
Speaker 2: That's when, because my parents were in Norfolk, that's when

318
00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:59,760
Speaker 2: you see America start to kick up and get They

319
00:16:59,800 --> 00:17:03,080
Speaker 2: know war's coming. Once they see that pack sign, they go, Okay,

320
00:17:03,480 --> 00:17:05,520
Speaker 2: something's going to happen in Europe and we got to

321
00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:06,880
Speaker 2: be ready for you see budgets.

322
00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:07,880
Speaker 1: The draft comes.

323
00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:10,200
Speaker 2: A huge fight in the draft because I remember most

324
00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,800
Speaker 2: people are, Hey, World War One left such a bad

325
00:17:12,840 --> 00:17:15,199
Speaker 2: taste in everybody's mouth, right, they said, hey, we're not

326
00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:15,920
Speaker 2: doing that again.

327
00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:18,360
Speaker 1: No League of Nations, none of that. Were really isolation.

328
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:21,040
Speaker 2: You got Lynn Burry all the American first crowd. But

329
00:17:21,359 --> 00:17:24,080
Speaker 2: in this city you start to see the draft, you

330
00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:26,560
Speaker 2: start to see armaments, you start to see we're getting

331
00:17:26,560 --> 00:17:29,359
Speaker 2: ready because people realize downrange of big fights coming.

332
00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:31,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. And not long after that, she had the London

333
00:17:31,720 --> 00:17:35,200
Speaker 1: Lease program with when Churchill Kevin keme a life. Yeah,

334
00:17:35,240 --> 00:17:39,159
Speaker 1: that's it. So it's all happening now. And Chambers goes

335
00:17:39,480 --> 00:17:42,879
Speaker 1: to very high ranking guy Adolf Burley, who is a

336
00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,159
Speaker 1: kind of security officer in the stage department, and he

337
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,360
Speaker 1: tells them, you've now got people working for you who

338
00:17:50,440 --> 00:17:53,720
Speaker 1: had been spying for the Soviets, and that material is

339
00:17:53,760 --> 00:17:56,120
Speaker 1: not going to go to Nazi Germany, and so.

340
00:17:56,160 --> 00:18:00,760
Speaker 2: Burley it's that is that the thing that triggers him

341
00:18:00,800 --> 00:18:04,280
Speaker 2: from being a KGB, a KGB spy, a Russian spy,

342
00:18:04,880 --> 00:18:07,119
Speaker 2: to actually going and saying this is the problem. Was

343
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,879
Speaker 2: the signing of the Pact. That where all his idealism

344
00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,879
Speaker 2: went away, because he said, if they're prepared to do

345
00:18:12,880 --> 00:18:16,000
Speaker 2: it with the Nazis there, it's not the idealism I

346
00:18:16,080 --> 00:18:18,520
Speaker 2: worked for as far as what you know, communism to

347
00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:19,359
Speaker 2: make the world better.

348
00:18:19,520 --> 00:18:21,560
Speaker 1: That was actually the last step, Steve, because there was

349
00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:24,480
Speaker 1: an earlier one. So just a little before then he

350
00:18:24,600 --> 00:18:28,520
Speaker 1: had a Soviet spy master, Colonel Beeklof this guy that

351
00:18:28,600 --> 00:18:31,320
Speaker 1: sent over from Russia and he said to Chambers as

352
00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:33,399
Speaker 1: early as nineteen thirty seven, he said, look, we have

353
00:18:33,480 --> 00:18:35,399
Speaker 1: a new mission for you. We're going to send you

354
00:18:35,440 --> 00:18:39,640
Speaker 1: on a boat to go over to Spain. And fight Franco.

355
00:18:39,720 --> 00:18:42,040
Speaker 1: We're going to be a spy there. And anybody who

356
00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:44,480
Speaker 1: followed what was going on, this is the Spanish Civil

357
00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:48,639
Speaker 1: War knew that Stalin was carrying out purges there. He was.

358
00:18:48,720 --> 00:18:51,480
Speaker 1: He was purging, all right, George Orwell wrot a fantastic

359
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:53,920
Speaker 1: book about it. How much Catalonia? How much to Catalonia?

360
00:18:54,040 --> 00:18:58,000
Speaker 1: And he was And Chambers realized they were sending him

361
00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,359
Speaker 1: over there to knock him off. So he starts a

362
00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:04,600
Speaker 1: rage that he thought he was weak, or he thought

363
00:19:04,640 --> 00:19:07,280
Speaker 1: he was weak. That there's a great line he gave

364
00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,720
Speaker 1: and his hearings that nobody picked up on because it's

365
00:19:11,880 --> 00:19:16,280
Speaker 1: just too subtle. Chambers, super literary guy, and everything he says.

366
00:19:16,320 --> 00:19:18,520
Speaker 1: If you look at his face and his testimony, there's

367
00:19:18,560 --> 00:19:20,800
Speaker 1: a kind of half smile he has all the time.

368
00:19:20,840 --> 00:19:24,440
Speaker 1: And someone says, well, is it really true, uh, mister Chambers,

369
00:19:24,440 --> 00:19:28,400
Speaker 1: that that you were not really a Stalinist but a Trotskyist.

370
00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,639
Speaker 1: And Chamber says, I am not now and never have

371
00:19:31,800 --> 00:19:35,560
Speaker 1: been a Trotskyist. He's making fun of what alger his systment.

372
00:19:35,600 --> 00:19:38,840
Speaker 1: They bring him in that right, So so Chambers got

373
00:19:38,840 --> 00:19:43,639
Speaker 1: worried about that, and he started to arrange his own

374
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,800
Speaker 1: break from the party. He adopts aliases, he moves to

375
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:50,760
Speaker 1: different apartments, and the guy he is unable to break

376
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:54,800
Speaker 1: away is alter your hiss. And there's this line out

377
00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:59,280
Speaker 1: your h hiss. Who's like Johns Hopkins, He's he's the golden boy.

378
00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,840
Speaker 1: He was a he was a Supreme Court clerk to

379
00:20:01,880 --> 00:20:05,359
Speaker 1: Felix Frankfurter. He was called one of Frankfurter's happy hot dogs.

380
00:20:05,400 --> 00:20:07,840
Speaker 1: They called him right guy on the left. Helped write

381
00:20:07,880 --> 00:20:11,639
Speaker 1: a lot of the New Deal legislation. Chambers really liked his,

382
00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:14,040
Speaker 1: He said, very fond of Misterress. He goes to his

383
00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:17,359
Speaker 1: and he says, look, they're coming after me. They're going

384
00:20:17,440 --> 00:20:19,480
Speaker 1: to come after all of us. Now you have to

385
00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:23,320
Speaker 1: break with this movement. And Chambers never forgot what his

386
00:20:23,480 --> 00:20:26,560
Speaker 1: said to him. He says, well, he said Stalin plays

387
00:20:26,800 --> 00:20:30,400
Speaker 1: for keeps, and Chambers remembered that when he was a kid,

388
00:20:30,600 --> 00:20:33,320
Speaker 1: that was a term you used and you were playing marbles,

389
00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:35,520
Speaker 1: like you got to keep the marble if you want it.

390
00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,440
Speaker 1: That to Hiss, this is the game and he wants

391
00:20:39,520 --> 00:20:42,760
Speaker 1: to be really famous. Word, Steve, you know very well.

392
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:46,000
Speaker 1: Chambers goes back to his wife and he says we're

393
00:20:46,040 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 1: going to leave you and I are going to leave

394
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,480
Speaker 1: the winning world for the losing world because they thought

395
00:20:50,520 --> 00:20:53,560
Speaker 1: the Communists were going to win. So then nineteen thirty

396
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:57,240
Speaker 1: nine the pact gets signed. Chambers meets with Adolph Burley

397
00:20:57,480 --> 00:21:02,600
Speaker 1: this beautiful house in Washington with this estate right overlooking

398
00:21:02,600 --> 00:21:05,480
Speaker 1: the Potomac, and meet at midnight, and Chambers says, I

399
00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:09,400
Speaker 1: have to tell you there are spies now who've been

400
00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,159
Speaker 1: working for the Soviet Union and their stuff is going

401
00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:16,040
Speaker 1: to be transmitted to the Selviet Union to the Nazis.

402
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:18,800
Speaker 1: We know it now because there's the pact, he says.

403
00:21:19,200 --> 00:21:23,280
Speaker 1: Burley says, we'll give me some names, and so Chambers does,

404
00:21:23,400 --> 00:21:27,320
Speaker 1: and they include Alger Hisss nineteen thirty nine. It's not

405
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:31,480
Speaker 1: until nineteen forty eight that they find let's say, well,

406
00:21:31,480 --> 00:21:34,000
Speaker 1: this is why it's so important, and he brings it.

407
00:21:34,000 --> 00:21:37,920
Speaker 2: First off, just having you talk about this and Heaven

408
00:21:37,960 --> 00:21:40,600
Speaker 2: in the book is kind of monumental because the liberals

409
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:42,440
Speaker 2: in this country never want to talk about the spirit.

410
00:21:42,560 --> 00:21:45,720
Speaker 2: What happened in the Roosevelt administration is they want to

411
00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,040
Speaker 2: show they don't want any discussion of this because this

412
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:50,639
Speaker 2: would play to someone what the bright we're saying, hey,

413
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,920
Speaker 2: this thing is really a front for socialism, for communism,

414
00:21:53,960 --> 00:21:56,639
Speaker 2: and they're saying, no, we're actually saving communism. You had

415
00:21:56,640 --> 00:21:59,119
Speaker 2: a bunch of this was the Joe Kennedy crowd that

416
00:21:59,160 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 2: we're saying, you know, this is a problem, so Ado

417
00:22:01,840 --> 00:22:03,600
Speaker 2: Brown these guys. The first thing to do is to

418
00:22:03,640 --> 00:22:06,040
Speaker 2: make sure we're not outing anybody, but we can kind

419
00:22:06,080 --> 00:22:06,760
Speaker 2: of tone it down.

420
00:22:06,960 --> 00:22:08,680
Speaker 1: That's what they thought they could do. They thought we'll

421
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:10,000
Speaker 1: handle it internally.

422
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,520
Speaker 2: To handle it externally means you're going to get thrown

423
00:22:12,520 --> 00:22:15,560
Speaker 2: out office because the American people go, you've got communists

424
00:22:15,560 --> 00:22:16,360
Speaker 2: in the government.

425
00:22:16,400 --> 00:22:19,320
Speaker 1: They got a KGB spy ring. And who's the guy

426
00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:24,160
Speaker 1: who actually goes before the public. And well, Nixon prosecuted

427
00:22:24,440 --> 00:22:28,680
Speaker 1: Hiss as it were through the House the publicly Garthy.

428
00:22:28,480 --> 00:22:30,919
Speaker 2: But Alger Hiss. When I say golden boy, Harry dex

429
00:22:31,000 --> 00:22:33,600
Speaker 2: are Wright Alger Hiss. And this is what gets back

430
00:22:33,600 --> 00:22:36,560
Speaker 2: to Yolta. Algier Hiss is the senior aide de camp

431
00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 2: for Roosevelt in Yalta when Roosevelt is so sick, right

432
00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:44,520
Speaker 2: very and that is the key meeting of Stalin Churchill

433
00:22:44,560 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 2: and Roosevelt. How the war is going to come to

434
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:50,040
Speaker 2: an end, and what the post World war is going

435
00:22:50,119 --> 00:22:52,640
Speaker 2: to look like. You have Alger Hiss, who is a

436
00:22:52,960 --> 00:22:56,439
Speaker 2: KGB spy, is the guy moving the papers and his

437
00:22:56,520 --> 00:22:59,159
Speaker 2: aide de camp. That's why the guys right, I've always said,

438
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:01,800
Speaker 2: and I keep saying, I don't care what they say

439
00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:07,200
Speaker 2: about why we why Phil Marshall, Montgomery and Patton stopped

440
00:23:07,440 --> 00:23:10,280
Speaker 2: seventy miles from Berlin right when that was the entire

441
00:23:10,320 --> 00:23:13,480
Speaker 2: objective of the war and let the Russian army, which

442
00:23:13,560 --> 00:23:15,760
Speaker 2: was what two or three hundred miles away, you know,

443
00:23:15,840 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 2: grind it up and they took Berlin. But there's y

444
00:23:18,200 --> 00:23:22,119
Speaker 2: Alta has always been a massive issue for whether it

445
00:23:22,160 --> 00:23:26,760
Speaker 2: was Nixon, Buckley, McCarthy currently, you know, Bannon and everybody

446
00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,960
Speaker 2: today to say, hey, and Alger Hiss was a golden boy.

447
00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:31,879
Speaker 2: I mean, they keep saying all these are grund dunes.

448
00:23:31,920 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 2: Even to have you say it is like the left

449
00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 2: never wants to talk about this. If Stone, Alger Hiss,

450
00:23:38,400 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 2: Harry Dexter White, any of this crowd.

451
00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,199
Speaker 1: Well, and another thing is that's important is did you

452
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:46,760
Speaker 1: get grief when you had the detail in the book

453
00:23:46,800 --> 00:23:50,520
Speaker 1: when Whidicker Chambers came, when the wildcare Chambers book came out. Yeah,

454
00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 1: actually less than I thought it would, but I got

455
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:59,080
Speaker 1: plenty of it. Oh yeah, it's funny. Some some writers

456
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,640
Speaker 1: were friends of mine now really came after me when

457
00:24:02,640 --> 00:24:07,240
Speaker 1: that book came out, that who was I to tell

458
00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 1: this story and to make Chambers seem like a sympathetic guy.

459
00:24:10,960 --> 00:24:15,600
Speaker 1: And there was There were just enough old style liberal

460
00:24:15,720 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 1: anti communists they used to call them, including Arthur Schlesinger

461
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:21,679
Speaker 1: who reviewed it for The Times, and he said, no,

462
00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:23,440
Speaker 1: this is the story that he said, this is as

463
00:24:23,520 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: close as stories we're going to get. But that that

464
00:24:26,840 --> 00:24:30,080
Speaker 1: kind of liberal is gone now. So it's even the

465
00:24:31,440 --> 00:24:35,399
Speaker 1: Chambers is great anti communisms and Buckley's Bucky's fighting it

466
00:24:35,480 --> 00:24:39,160
Speaker 1: to the end. You will meet the children of Russian

467
00:24:39,240 --> 00:24:41,800
Speaker 1: emigrats in this country. One of them is one of

468
00:24:41,840 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: our greatest novelists, now, got him, Gary Steingart, you've probably

469
00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: heard of. I saw him at a book event and

470
00:24:47,320 --> 00:24:49,560
Speaker 1: they said, I have to tell you my parents emigrated

471
00:24:50,160 --> 00:24:52,879
Speaker 1: from Russia in the seventies. Bill Buckley was a god

472
00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,000
Speaker 1: to them because he was the only one who was

473
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:57,639
Speaker 1: saying we can bring this whole union down. He's the

474
00:24:57,640 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 1: only one saying let the Jews out, you know, so

475
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,680
Speaker 1: all this other stuff that is circulating now, but even

476
00:25:04,720 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 1: now Bucky won't get credit for it. It steems me

477
00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:11,200
Speaker 1: a little bit. But anyway, so we'll get to that later.

478
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:16,000
Speaker 1: But so Chambers sees Hisses doing this, but not only that.

479
00:25:16,560 --> 00:25:19,680
Speaker 1: Chambers was a brilliant writer. And when he broke from

480
00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,880
Speaker 1: the underground, he got a job a Time magazine and

481
00:25:24,040 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 1: early on the anti communists loose anti communist, but very

482
00:25:28,640 --> 00:25:34,640
Speaker 1: classic Republican loose right. And so it's like nineteen forty

483
00:25:34,800 --> 00:25:37,639
Speaker 1: and Chambers is just a guy working away, get a

484
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:41,480
Speaker 1: good salary. But you're a faceless guy, no bylines Time

485
00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,080
Speaker 1: Magazine in those days. You just wrote your article. And

486
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:52,080
Speaker 1: Henry Luce reads this devastating critique of John Steinbeck's Grapes

487
00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 1: of Wrath when it was made to a film and

488
00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:59,200
Speaker 1: john Ford john Ford and Chambers said it's a magnificent film,

489
00:25:59,480 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 1: but the not this trash. And Luce reads this thing

490
00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 1: and he says, this is the best film review I've

491
00:26:05,080 --> 00:26:09,720
Speaker 1: ever read. Who wrote this? And it's Dumpy Whittaker Chambers.

492
00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: They call a man, and lo says, who are you?

493
00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,040
Speaker 1: And he realizes he is a genius on his hands

494
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:19,040
Speaker 1: and Chambers says, not only that, I'll tell you everything

495
00:26:19,080 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 1: that's going on. I'll tell you this. Your own magazine

496
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,119
Speaker 1: is filled with pro communist writers who are going to

497
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:30,680
Speaker 1: start turning the copy of their dispatches, are going to

498
00:26:30,720 --> 00:26:34,040
Speaker 1: be totally pro communists in Russia and in China. So

499
00:26:34,200 --> 00:26:36,960
Speaker 1: Chambers becomes the villain there to all of this is

500
00:26:36,960 --> 00:26:40,320
Speaker 1: in the book. Of course, then finally they get around

501
00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 1: after the war ends, you all to happen, hey, or

502
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 1: we're gonna come back to you all to take a

503
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:48,400
Speaker 1: short commercial break. This is even better. And I thought

504
00:26:48,800 --> 00:26:51,280
Speaker 1: I could do this for days. This is the great writer.

505
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:55,719
Speaker 2: This, Oh my god, it because it's of the anyway,

506
00:26:55,800 --> 00:26:56,760
Speaker 2: take a short commercial break.

507
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:02,280
Speaker 1: We're talking about to get back war room. Here's your hosts,

508
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:06,480
Speaker 1: Stephen k Man, what say, welcome back.

509
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:08,959
Speaker 2: I didn't realize you're such a great story tell your books.

510
00:27:08,960 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 2: But your rank and tour whitaker Chambers, Right, all.

511
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,959
Speaker 1: Right, So y Alta, y Alta happens, and there's this,

512
00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:20,440
Speaker 1: and explain.

513
00:27:20,200 --> 00:27:22,639
Speaker 2: To people though, y'all also, and why is y Alta

514
00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 2: so big in the post war America?

515
00:27:26,440 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: Everything you see, the losing of China, all of it.

516
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,800
Speaker 2: McCarthy really from the post war era to all the

517
00:27:32,800 --> 00:27:36,200
Speaker 2: way up to really Jack Kennedy, this thing what happened

518
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:38,120
Speaker 2: at y Alta drives so much.

519
00:27:38,520 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 1: Nineteen forty five. The war's been one. So the leaders

520
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: of the three great Allied nations, US, UK, Soviet Union

521
00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:51,440
Speaker 1: all me y Alta, right, which is where they crime

522
00:27:51,720 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: or somewhere right, and they all get together and they're

523
00:27:55,080 --> 00:27:57,680
Speaker 1: going to divide up. We can't believe they're fighting about

524
00:27:57,680 --> 00:28:01,240
Speaker 1: it in Ukraine right now. Yeah, yeah, you can't believe

525
00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: that they would do this until we see it happened.

526
00:28:02,800 --> 00:28:04,760
Speaker 1: Now they actually have maps in front of them and

527
00:28:04,800 --> 00:28:07,879
Speaker 1: they're carving up Central and Eastern Europe. Who gets what

528
00:28:08,000 --> 00:28:11,919
Speaker 1: piece of what? And Stalin's coming out of it looking

529
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:12,919
Speaker 1: very well.

530
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,080
Speaker 2: Well because the reality is they lost sixty five million people,

531
00:28:18,160 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 2: twenty five million military and another thirty to thirty five

532
00:28:20,760 --> 00:28:24,600
Speaker 2: million started at I mean, they broke the Wehrmacht, Arsenal, democracy,

533
00:28:24,800 --> 00:28:27,360
Speaker 2: the heroism of America and the troops and the Eighth

534
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,160
Speaker 2: Air Corps unbelievable.

535
00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:31,040
Speaker 1: What the British did unbelievable.

536
00:28:31,359 --> 00:28:34,440
Speaker 2: But that technically where the war was fought, which was

537
00:28:34,480 --> 00:28:36,479
Speaker 2: in Eastern Europe and the Ukraine and all that the

538
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,080
Speaker 2: center of gravity of this great war where the Russian Army,

539
00:28:40,120 --> 00:28:42,760
Speaker 2: the Red Army broke the back of the Wehrmacht and

540
00:28:42,800 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 2: then broke Hitler, was all.

541
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:44,920
Speaker 1: In the east.

542
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,040
Speaker 2: So Stalin realized they had paid in blood of what

543
00:28:47,240 --> 00:28:49,760
Speaker 2: they said that we had paid for material goods.

544
00:28:49,880 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: You know, that's absolutely right. And you know when I

545
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:54,920
Speaker 1: go back even further in history and you go, you

546
00:28:55,000 --> 00:28:57,600
Speaker 1: go back to right toll story in war in peace,

547
00:28:57,640 --> 00:28:59,880
Speaker 1: and that's what that's when Napoleone gets stopped in right,

548
00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:01,120
Speaker 1: it's the same thing.

549
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:03,320
Speaker 2: And you have to see what's happened in Ukraine. They'll

550
00:29:03,360 --> 00:29:05,520
Speaker 2: throw as many bodies into the meat render as they

551
00:29:05,560 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 2: have to. Well, you know, and what do they say

552
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 2: about Russia. They never lacked for strong leaders, right, yeah,

553
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:12,960
Speaker 2: they'll do it. They'll do it, and they were doing

554
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:16,520
Speaker 2: it then and and so Chambers is a Time magazine.

555
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,880
Speaker 2: Remember there are no bylines them and everything is strict reporting.

556
00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:21,240
Speaker 2: So they get cables.

557
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,120
Speaker 1: In those days, the cables would come in from the

558
00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 1: Foreign Office and then these guys like Chambers is now

559
00:29:26,280 --> 00:29:30,800
Speaker 1: running the Foreign News department. And we have to say

560
00:29:31,120 --> 00:29:34,840
Speaker 1: Time Magazine at that point was kind of like it's

561
00:29:34,880 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: like Fox it's like Tucker carl S The New York

562
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:41,320
Speaker 1: Times Lose a BBC combined.

563
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 2: First, I'll give a second Loose and his wife, one

564
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 2: of the most extraordinary women in American history, Claire Booth Loose,

565
00:29:47,320 --> 00:29:51,120
Speaker 2: had really gotten Henry Loose even more thinking about the

566
00:29:51,160 --> 00:29:54,600
Speaker 2: grand strategy of America. So you had her, you had

567
00:29:55,200 --> 00:29:57,080
Speaker 2: you had Theatre White, Teddy White.

568
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 1: I mean the.

569
00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:02,520
Speaker 2: Crew of writers he had and people that could actually

570
00:30:02,520 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: deliver a great copy. Because remember they called Time magazine

571
00:30:05,440 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 2: the first draft of history, and these guys took it seriously.

572
00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: And they were really good at it. There were great writers,

573
00:30:11,240 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: and then they had guys in the home office like Chambers,

574
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:17,120
Speaker 1: who would rewrite and then smooth it out. And Chambers

575
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:19,400
Speaker 1: was famous for his own copy, the flow in his

576
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: copy right. Chambers had been a prodigy, is a short

577
00:30:22,160 --> 00:30:24,120
Speaker 1: story writer and poet when he was a kid. We

578
00:30:24,160 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: haven't even touched on that. He's called the hottest literary

579
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:30,240
Speaker 1: Bolshevik in America. So now he's gone the other way,

580
00:30:30,720 --> 00:30:33,280
Speaker 1: and now he knows a lot of world history. One

581
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: of Chambers's languages is Russian along with German. He spoke

582
00:30:36,200 --> 00:30:39,200
Speaker 1: German like a native. His Russian is really good too,

583
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:44,960
Speaker 1: and he sees what's going on, and he knows that

584
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:50,160
Speaker 1: Algerhiss is this guy he used to run as a

585
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 1: spy who's now at Yalta.

586
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:57,080
Speaker 2: So Chambers as he's not at y Alta, he's FDR's

587
00:30:57,120 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 2: aide de camp at Altar. I mean he's the guy

588
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,600
Speaker 2: bringing the papers in. I mean he's because FDR is

589
00:31:02,680 --> 00:31:05,960
Speaker 2: very ill at this time. In fact, he's within ninety

590
00:31:06,080 --> 00:31:08,720
Speaker 2: days of dying, of dying, that's how ill he is.

591
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:11,400
Speaker 2: And Whittaker Chambers is kind of running the deal.

592
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: That alter history. Yeah, well they had, they had phone extensions.

593
00:31:16,200 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 1: FDR was was one, alter Hiss was three. End of story. Well,

594
00:31:21,000 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: so Champions is watching all this and he goes off

595
00:31:25,440 --> 00:31:27,920
Speaker 1: to his you know, he lived on a farm in Maryland,

596
00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:30,640
Speaker 1: and he'd come in, he'd booked these odd hours. He's

597
00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:34,200
Speaker 1: become a quaker by now, very odd, oddball character. But

598
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,800
Speaker 1: everybody knows he's breathing. And he types this thing up.

599
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:40,160
Speaker 1: He has a story. He writes a terrible right. It's

600
00:31:40,240 --> 00:31:44,160
Speaker 1: not a report in Time magazine, it's an essay. He

601
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:48,680
Speaker 1: calls it a historical fantasy that he's invented. It's called

602
00:31:48,920 --> 00:31:53,640
Speaker 1: the Ghosts on the roof, and he imagines the ancient

603
00:31:53,800 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 1: czars of Russia watching the Alta and saying, wow, we

604
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 1: got our guy and stuff. He's the one who's actually

605
00:32:02,560 --> 00:32:06,400
Speaker 1: going to create an empire for us. And Chamber slips

606
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,239
Speaker 1: it in to Time magazine. He gives it to his

607
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 1: editor and there's like a delegation that descends on I'm

608
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:16,400
Speaker 1: gun Tom Matthews, t s Matthews, So you're going to

609
00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: publish this thing? How can you do it? All he's

610
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 1: doing is feeding all the right wing frenzy out there.

611
00:32:23,000 --> 00:32:27,720
Speaker 1: And Matthew shows it to Loose and Lou says, this

612
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:31,680
Speaker 1: is like the work of a literary genius. He's created

613
00:32:31,720 --> 00:32:35,160
Speaker 1: this story. It's like a story by Franz Kafka. Lou

614
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 1: shows it to his wife, whom you mentioned, Claire Booth

615
00:32:38,720 --> 00:32:42,440
Speaker 1: Loose and says, this thing is a playwright wrote the

616
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 1: Women not Women. She was a Republican congresswoman. She was

617
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 1: one of Buckley's first idols. But they got a lot

618
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: of us have that in the book one of his.

619
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:52,680
Speaker 1: He admired the way she could give a speech like

620
00:32:52,720 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 1: nobody else, nobody else, you know, with the turns of frame,

621
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: with the power couple, in New York.

622
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,120
Speaker 2: You're talking at the highest level of manhattanas in the

623
00:33:01,120 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: elite in the country.

624
00:33:02,320 --> 00:33:05,520
Speaker 1: They had a penthouse apartment across the street from the

625
00:33:05,560 --> 00:33:10,160
Speaker 1: Metropolitan Museum of Art after they moved out of the Waldorf, right,

626
00:33:10,600 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: and Buckley was very proud. He told me, he said,

627
00:33:12,760 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 1: I think I'm the only person who edited Harry and

628
00:33:16,040 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 1: Claire Loose because they both wrote pieces for him. But

629
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: that's later, that's the nineteen sixties. So Chambers writes this thing,

630
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:27,080
Speaker 1: and Time magazine publishes it, and it blows up, and

631
00:33:27,080 --> 00:33:29,240
Speaker 1: they want to fire Chambers right then and there, right

632
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:33,120
Speaker 1: his colleagues, his esteemed colleagues, and Lou says, no, we're

633
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 1: not doing it. So they're already loaded for bearwith Chambers.

634
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: So that a few years later, or actually months later,

635
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: Life Magazine was read by even more people than Time.

636
00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: Time was for the readers. Life was the photo magazine

637
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:53,080
Speaker 1: that was Claire Loose's idea to do life right. Huge circulations.

638
00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:57,440
Speaker 1: These magazines had bigger circulations in that much smaller America

639
00:33:57,480 --> 00:34:01,520
Speaker 1: than any print publication does today. In a blue collar.

640
00:34:01,240 --> 00:34:05,600
Speaker 2: House, you know, with five kids, Catholic, we got Time Magazine,

641
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,759
Speaker 2: we got Newsweek, We got Life in there. We got

642
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:10,960
Speaker 2: a look, but the Life magazine would come in and

643
00:34:11,000 --> 00:34:11,719
Speaker 2: it was like that.

644
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:13,800
Speaker 1: Was the world. It was what showed you the world

645
00:34:13,920 --> 00:34:16,800
Speaker 1: that was photographed. Well, one of the you may remember

646
00:34:16,840 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 1: at the end of Life magazine that have the photo

647
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: of the week and the photo of the Week was

648
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 1: in nineteen forty five. It was a handsome Depennair State

649
00:34:28,000 --> 00:34:33,920
Speaker 1: Department official, Alger Hiss, flying home with the charter for

650
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 1: the United Nations and he was its first Secretary General.

651
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 1: And Chambers goes, are we allowed to say this? He

652
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 1: kind of goes back, yes, and he said, this was

653
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 1: the guy who is in the Communist Party with me.

654
00:34:48,280 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to believe.

655
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:56,520
Speaker 2: This, So for the audience he identified Alger Hiss as

656
00:34:56,640 --> 00:35:00,759
Speaker 2: a Communist spy working for the military. I mean, this

657
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:03,800
Speaker 2: is the hardcore guys. In nineteen thirty nine to senior

658
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:06,680
Speaker 2: people in the State Department after the war, he's telling

659
00:35:06,760 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 2: Henry Lucy he's working at a time, this guy's a

660
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 2: Soviet agent at Yalta.

661
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,720
Speaker 1: He's number three on the phone to FDR.

662
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 2: Now he's back his thing writ and Triaman has got

663
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:18,040
Speaker 2: to be going insane because he keeps telling the powers

664
00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 2: that be the people that get shut it down. Hey,

665
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 2: by the way, this guy's's not a fellow traveler, he's

666
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 2: not a sympathizer. He's an active agent of military intelligence

667
00:35:27,040 --> 00:35:29,880
Speaker 2: for the Russians. And it keeps rising in powers. Is

668
00:35:29,880 --> 00:35:31,239
Speaker 2: anybody going to do anything about it?

669
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,960
Speaker 1: Well? And this is the way these stories always turn.

670
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 1: It's why they're fun to tell. Is So Chambers finally

671
00:35:39,960 --> 00:35:45,400
Speaker 1: gets a hearing in Congress because in nineteen forty six,

672
00:35:46,120 --> 00:35:49,440
Speaker 1: right with Truman succeeds Roosevelt. As you said, Roosevelt was

673
00:35:49,440 --> 00:35:53,400
Speaker 1: near death. Harry Truman succeeds him, and then the Republicans

674
00:35:53,719 --> 00:35:58,120
Speaker 1: running on a platform they call had enough right nineteen

675
00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,279
Speaker 1: forty six and lowen and behold, some anti communists get

676
00:36:02,280 --> 00:36:05,200
Speaker 1: elected to the House and the Senate. I'll give you

677
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:09,000
Speaker 1: three names. They're two congressmen. One guy's named Jack Kennedy.

678
00:36:09,880 --> 00:36:11,600
Speaker 1: The other is Richard Nixon.

679
00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:14,359
Speaker 2: All had been in the Pacific in the war, came

680
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:16,680
Speaker 2: back home and want the country to get moving again.

681
00:36:16,719 --> 00:36:18,839
Speaker 2: And they realized things were wrong in DC. And both

682
00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 2: these guys coming in as on that platform. Although Nixon's

683
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 2: more of a fire breather than Jack Kennedy.

684
00:36:25,120 --> 00:36:27,239
Speaker 1: And there's a third guy too, who gets elected to

685
00:36:27,280 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 1: the Senate, Joe McCarthy from Wisconsin. All post war, all

686
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: post war, and now they're all sort of getting ready

687
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: to move. And so HUAC the famous House Committee and

688
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:42,960
Speaker 1: on American Activities, which we kind of turned the order around.

689
00:36:42,960 --> 00:36:45,520
Speaker 1: We call it q ACT. And you can always tell

690
00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:50,319
Speaker 1: when you talk to the old style anti communists and

691
00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:52,800
Speaker 1: ex communist witnesses, the guys I knew when I was

692
00:36:52,840 --> 00:36:55,800
Speaker 1: writing in the book, nobody remembers their name anymore, names anymore,

693
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 1: you know, Herbert Ramerstein and Victor Riselle. They always they

694
00:37:00,160 --> 00:37:05,480
Speaker 1: always insist on calling it HCUA House Committee on American Activities.

695
00:37:05,560 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 1: So at any rate, so they start having hearings in

696
00:37:08,360 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 1: the summer of forty eight. It's an election year, right,

697
00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 1: Congress goes home for the vacation, the House goes home,

698
00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: and they started having these hearings on Communist infiltration, and

699
00:37:20,440 --> 00:37:22,960
Speaker 1: they're not really getting anywhere. And then they say, well,

700
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 1: look we've got this one other witness. The FBI has

701
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,640
Speaker 1: been tracking them. The Naval Intelligence had also been interviewing

702
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 1: Chambers on and off all these years. Ald your Hiss

703
00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:39,920
Speaker 1: mysteriously leaves the State Department to run the Carnegie Endowment

704
00:37:40,000 --> 00:37:43,760
Speaker 1: for International Peace because pressure is already coming from within.

705
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:45,439
Speaker 1: They want to get rid of them, right.

706
00:37:45,719 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 2: But also CERTA, this is the NGOs we always talk

707
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 2: about today. They're one of the most well endowed from

708
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 2: as tough as capitalist as you could ever have. But

709
00:37:54,640 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 2: now they're kind of a front organization for nefarious communi sectivity.

710
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:02,279
Speaker 1: You know, the gospel of wealth becomes sort of the

711
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 1: gospel of socialism. Right. So they bring Chambers in and

712
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:11,120
Speaker 1: he's just there to corroborate a previous witness no one

713
00:38:11,280 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: remembers or anyone named Elizabeth Bentley, because she'd also been

714
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:18,759
Speaker 1: one of these couriers. And she's look, we're speaking kind

715
00:38:18,800 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 1: of you know, on woke terms or whatever. But she's

716
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:26,240
Speaker 1: this kind of middle age, you know, kind of dumpy woman,

717
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,000
Speaker 1: and she's giving your testimony. You figure she's a Soviet spy.

718
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:31,640
Speaker 1: We don't have much to worry about. Yeah, But they said, well,

719
00:38:31,680 --> 00:38:34,879
Speaker 1: let's let's see if we can corroborate her. Right. One

720
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:37,520
Speaker 1: of the journalists at the time there was aj Leebling

721
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:41,000
Speaker 1: Culture the Nutmeg Matta Harry because she's from Connecticut, like

722
00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:43,600
Speaker 1: where I live now, nut Meg Stay. So then they

723
00:38:43,600 --> 00:38:45,279
Speaker 1: bring it, and they say, well, we've got this other guy.

724
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:49,200
Speaker 1: We've got this guy a Time magazine. And so Chambers

725
00:38:49,280 --> 00:38:56,440
Speaker 1: gets the subpoena from HUAC in August right to testify

726
00:38:57,160 --> 00:38:59,560
Speaker 1: before the House Committee. He doesn't want to do it,

727
00:38:59,600 --> 00:39:01,439
Speaker 1: he says to a friend of his, he said, look,

728
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,960
Speaker 1: that guy says to him, well, we'll just tell them

729
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:06,840
Speaker 1: what you know. You've already talked about all this stuff.

730
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:11,320
Speaker 1: You've been talking to u Oni, Officer of Naval Intelligence,

731
00:39:11,320 --> 00:39:14,200
Speaker 1: you're talking to the FBI, you talk to Adolf Burley.

732
00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:16,840
Speaker 1: Why not just go before Hugh I tell them what

733
00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:19,399
Speaker 1: you know? And Chambers says, well, you know, he looks

734
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:22,520
Speaker 1: her eyes, says, they don't like informers around here. And

735
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 1: one of the things that's so great about Chambers I

736
00:39:24,920 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 1: really admire about him, Steve, is that he calls himself

737
00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:31,759
Speaker 1: an in annoy you know, he doesn't he doesn't pretend

738
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:34,319
Speaker 1: he's doing something different from what he does. He has

739
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: this gorgeous, beautiful, heartbreaking line in Witness where he says,

740
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:43,920
Speaker 1: an informer is somebody who's like a who's fetching a

741
00:39:44,000 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 1: soiled bone. He said, I don't want to name these

742
00:39:46,760 --> 00:39:49,799
Speaker 1: people I worked with. I'm not gonna say what they did.

743
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: I don't want to be that guy, right, that's the

744
00:39:52,320 --> 00:39:54,560
Speaker 1: term we use now. I don't want to be that guy.

745
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:59,320
Speaker 1: I'll tell you. As an aside, several very good filmmakers

746
00:39:59,640 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 1: came to to me and said, you know, I'd like

747
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: to make a book a movie about Chambers, said, will

748
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,800
Speaker 1: never happen. Will never happen. You cannot make the snitch

749
00:40:09,040 --> 00:40:12,000
Speaker 1: the hero. The country won't accept, and then they would

750
00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:14,080
Speaker 1: all back down in the end, right, Like one guy

751
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:17,760
Speaker 1: who made very small offer for was Denio, Robert DeNiro.

752
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 1: He is a production company years ago. Well that's an

753
00:40:19,880 --> 00:40:22,319
Speaker 1: interesting story all this time, all right, So anyway.

754
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 2: Hang on one second. I want to go to break

755
00:40:23,520 --> 00:40:28,200
Speaker 2: and come back with this, you know, Denera and those guys.

756
00:40:28,239 --> 00:40:31,040
Speaker 2: It's interesting. I would argue that I think we get

757
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 2: it made now because of the success of Goodfellows, which

758
00:40:34,760 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 2: focus is around the rat. I only know that from prison,

759
00:40:38,040 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 2: because in prison they tell you, hey, if you're a rat,

760
00:40:42,239 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 2: you're the lowest down. This I mean, you do not

761
00:40:44,160 --> 00:40:45,719
Speaker 2: want to go to prison and have that what they

762
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:46,560
Speaker 2: call in your papers.

763
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:46,840
Speaker 1: You go.

764
00:40:47,000 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 2: If you have that, you've been a government a government

765
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:52,320
Speaker 2: informant in Federal prison.

766
00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:53,800
Speaker 1: The life is not good anyway.

767
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 2: Short commercial break, Sam Tann in House, Litiger, Chambers and Buckley.

768
00:40:58,080 --> 00:41:04,680
Speaker 1: Next War Room. Here's your host, Stephen K. Bah Okay,

769
00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:06,800
Speaker 1: welcome back, Birch Gold. Want to thank our sponsor.

770
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:13,080
Speaker 2: One of the issues today about inflation. It's about de dollarization.

771
00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:15,240
Speaker 2: You know, the bricks movement, you know the Chinese Commists

772
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,319
Speaker 2: party heads it up. What we try to do over

773
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:19,880
Speaker 2: the last couple of years is not sell you fish,

774
00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:22,120
Speaker 2: but teach you how to fish. It's not the price

775
00:41:22,160 --> 00:41:24,480
Speaker 2: of gold, it's the process that drives the value gold.

776
00:41:24,520 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 2: And why has gold been a hedge against times of

777
00:41:27,080 --> 00:41:29,920
Speaker 2: financial turbulence for I don't know five thousand years of

778
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 2: man's history. Find out why the end of the dollar empire.

779
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:36,920
Speaker 2: Birch Gold dot com promo code Bannon, you get it all.

780
00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 2: For the last four years when gold was eleven hundred

781
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:41,560
Speaker 2: dollars an ounce, now it's what forty two hundred dollars

782
00:41:41,560 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 2: an ounce?

783
00:41:43,440 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 1: What happened?

784
00:41:44,200 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 2: You find out in the page of that seven free

785
00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:48,120
Speaker 2: installments over the last four years. We're working on the

786
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,640
Speaker 2: eighth free installment right now. Birch gold dot Com. You

787
00:41:50,680 --> 00:41:52,920
Speaker 2: get to meet the team at Birch Gold. Philip Patrick

788
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:56,280
Speaker 2: in the team. We'll talk to you about the logic

789
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,480
Speaker 2: why central banks throughout the worldwise the Chinese Commists party

790
00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:02,839
Speaker 2: central bank buying golded record rates because of the detaillarisation

791
00:42:03,000 --> 00:42:06,239
Speaker 2: movement throughout the world, because of the decreasing value of

792
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 2: the dollar. Check it all out birch Gold dot com.

793
00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,759
Speaker 2: Do it today. Sam H. Whittiger Chambers is about to

794
00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,840
Speaker 2: become a witness, and and and he's and he's torn

795
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:18,359
Speaker 2: because now he realized publicly he's going to be out

796
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:21,840
Speaker 2: as an informer. And throughout history, the informers always had

797
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 2: a black mark on it.

798
00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, in the first trial the UH, there

799
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: were two trials. After the the hearings, the UH defense

800
00:42:30,719 --> 00:42:33,920
Speaker 1: attorney for for A Hiss called him a leper. He's

801
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,960
Speaker 1: a moral leper. What happens when the leper comes down,

802
00:42:37,200 --> 00:42:39,960
Speaker 1: you know, lepper get away? You know this is the informer.

803
00:42:40,320 --> 00:42:42,919
Speaker 1: Chamber is very sensitive guy, you know, a literary guy.

804
00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: And and he's been close to these people. He still

805
00:42:44,960 --> 00:42:48,320
Speaker 1: fell very close to them, right, So he goes before

806
00:42:48,880 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: in what they call executive session, you know all this stuff,

807
00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:54,040
Speaker 1: that's the private meeting. And I got I got the

808
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:57,000
Speaker 1: document and more classified. Yeah, yeah, I got the I

809
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: got one of my sources for the Chamber Book all

810
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:02,880
Speaker 1: those years ago. These guys are all long gone, of course,

811
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:06,080
Speaker 1: gave me the executive testimony, the.

812
00:43:06,040 --> 00:43:09,439
Speaker 2: Private Well, the Democratic Party did not want. I mean,

813
00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:11,360
Speaker 2: this could have you could have taken down the Democratic

814
00:43:11,360 --> 00:43:13,879
Speaker 2: Party for a generation if you knew that they were

815
00:43:14,239 --> 00:43:18,040
Speaker 2: active a Soviet subversion of the Democrat Party, which a

816
00:43:18,040 --> 00:43:19,520
Speaker 2: lot of people on the right but they were kind

817
00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:22,440
Speaker 2: of marginalized, were saying, and now you showed the evidence.

818
00:43:22,520 --> 00:43:25,799
Speaker 2: That's why these executive sessions, all of this, this was

819
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:29,960
Speaker 2: a huge This kind of consumed Washington right for years,

820
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:31,320
Speaker 2: these types of things, and when.

821
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:34,120
Speaker 1: It happened, and the timing here, yeah, you know, quiet

822
00:43:34,200 --> 00:43:36,439
Speaker 1: Washington people looking for stories. One of the great things

823
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,040
Speaker 1: I did, Steve, was to interview a reporter. I wonder

824
00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:40,719
Speaker 1: if you knew him. A got named Murray Martin or

825
00:43:40,719 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 1: wrote for the Washington Post. He covered the Hiss case.

826
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,440
Speaker 1: And I came down here like in that, oh, mid nineties.

827
00:43:47,640 --> 00:43:50,000
Speaker 1: He was already retired, he was seventy five years old,

828
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:52,200
Speaker 1: and he said, nobody ever talked to me about this stuff.

829
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:55,279
Speaker 1: And I just turned on the tape recorder and he

830
00:43:55,320 --> 00:43:55,960
Speaker 1: walked me through it.

831
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 2: And never talked about today because it's a part of

832
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 2: history they don't want to talk about.

833
00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, now does is he gives comfort to the

834
00:44:01,920 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 1: bad guy, so he can't talk about it. Right, So

835
00:44:04,560 --> 00:44:06,799
Speaker 1: right wingers like Mega say, hey, we told you, we

836
00:44:06,840 --> 00:44:09,359
Speaker 1: told you. Yeah, we're actually right about something. You want

837
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:10,799
Speaker 1: to come out And Dan Calder.

838
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 2: Says, the book about the right wing book about about

839
00:44:17,280 --> 00:44:19,959
Speaker 2: the thing that Joe McCarthy is the greatest book since

840
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:20,879
Speaker 2: the Bible, right.

841
00:44:21,040 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: Right, right, No, it's true, and nobody wants to hear

842
00:44:25,080 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 1: Nobody wanted to hear it. Then Washingt's of one company

843
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 1: town and the company's a government. You don't want to

844
00:44:30,040 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: hear that. It's infiltrated. So Chambers says, yeah, I'll tell

845
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:36,840
Speaker 1: you what I have. And he goes before the committee

846
00:44:36,880 --> 00:44:40,240
Speaker 1: and they're kind of disappointed them. They're meeting behind closed doors.

847
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:44,359
Speaker 1: He's very soft spoken, Chambers. He is as a low

848
00:44:44,480 --> 00:44:49,280
Speaker 1: pitched voice. It doesn't carry well. He doesn't exactly mumble.

849
00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:54,919
Speaker 1: He's incredibly articulate, but he's uncomfortable. He's not a fantastic

850
00:44:55,040 --> 00:44:58,600
Speaker 1: looking guy either, like Elizabeth Bentley before him, and he'd

851
00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 1: been up the night before. He came and stayed with

852
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 1: a friend of his in Washington, a guy a Time

853
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 1: magazine who put him up. I lived in Colorama. Chamber

854
00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: stayed with him. And this guy gets up, a very

855
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:13,160
Speaker 1: good journalist, Frank McNaughton, and he gets up. He sees

856
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:17,000
Speaker 1: Chamber in the early morning. Chambers is pacing around, said

857
00:45:17,040 --> 00:45:20,080
Speaker 1: what's going on with and he said, I think they

858
00:45:20,120 --> 00:45:23,560
Speaker 1: may try to come after me here. They don't want

859
00:45:23,560 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: me to testify the Commune. It's going to try to

860
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:30,120
Speaker 1: kill me. And Frank McNaughton says to him, look, you're

861
00:45:30,120 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 1: safe here with you got nothing to worry about. Chambers

862
00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,440
Speaker 1: had this reputation for being a guy who he went

863
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,840
Speaker 1: out to lunch through them at Time Magazine. He'd always

864
00:45:37,880 --> 00:45:39,560
Speaker 1: had to sit with his back to the wall. It's

865
00:45:39,600 --> 00:45:41,799
Speaker 1: like you're going out with a monster. He's looking over

866
00:45:41,800 --> 00:45:44,920
Speaker 1: his shoulder and people find it comical. They don't believe

867
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:47,239
Speaker 1: any of this stuff is really happening when they were

868
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:49,360
Speaker 1: trying to get rid of him, right So anyhow, so

869
00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: now he goes goes to the meeting that it's gonna

870
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:55,440
Speaker 1: the big meeting is going to be in the caucus,

871
00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:58,439
Speaker 1: room right, the house, Caucaus room because famous, famous, right,

872
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,320
Speaker 1: it's the biggest venue that has But they bring the witness,

873
00:46:01,680 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 1: you know, behind the scenes first, and there's a great

874
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 1: investigator for the committee, Hughock Committee and Robert Stripling, guy

875
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 1: from Texas, Midland, Texas, George Bush was from and he

876
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:17,320
Speaker 1: starts questioning Chambers, and Chambers is kind of hemming and hawing.

877
00:46:17,360 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 1: He doesn't want to talk about this stuff. But Chambers

878
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:23,240
Speaker 1: says to him, well, I've also got this statement I've written.

879
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 1: And Stripling looks at it and he says, the other said, no,

880
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,520
Speaker 1: we're go in public with this guy, and nobody knows why.

881
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,520
Speaker 1: And Stripling told another interview a guy named Alan Weinstein

882
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:39,360
Speaker 1: wrote a fantastic book called Perjury. Gave me all his

883
00:46:39,520 --> 00:46:44,640
Speaker 1: documents too, and Stripling says to him, he said, I've

884
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:49,600
Speaker 1: seen this guy's statement. It's dynamite. But this guy has

885
00:46:49,719 --> 00:46:52,239
Speaker 1: to say so they haul them out. They all move

886
00:46:52,280 --> 00:46:55,239
Speaker 1: into the caucuss room. Chambers is there, right, he's like

887
00:46:55,280 --> 00:46:58,320
Speaker 1: as short as I am, and you know, and he

888
00:46:58,480 --> 00:47:00,279
Speaker 1: can dumpy and all this, and he goes in front

889
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:03,640
Speaker 1: of a microphone like this, and he says, well, I'm

890
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: going to read my statement, and he says I was

891
00:47:06,160 --> 00:47:10,239
Speaker 1: part of a Soviet apparatus. He doesn't mention spying. He

892
00:47:10,280 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 1: wants to protect everybody, he says, but we were involved

893
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:16,719
Speaker 1: and in underground I was part of a cell and

894
00:47:16,760 --> 00:47:19,520
Speaker 1: the members included. And he starts going through the names,

895
00:47:19,680 --> 00:47:24,800
Speaker 1: and one of them is Outer Hiss, and like that's

896
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 1: the name that registers with everybody. And Chambers knows it.

897
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 1: He's a Time magazine. He'd risen very high at Time magazine.

898
00:47:32,239 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 1: He was in those days, Steve making thirty thousand dollars

899
00:47:35,160 --> 00:47:38,120
Speaker 1: a year. Multiply it by about fifteen to see what

900
00:47:38,200 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: that salary is for a journalist. Now, Chambers just putting

901
00:47:41,239 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 1: it all on the line, he says, and they said

902
00:47:43,520 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 1: Outer Hiss. Every weeresit's racing to the phones. So the

903
00:47:47,719 --> 00:47:53,560
Speaker 1: headlines and next day, senior editor of Time magazine accuses

904
00:47:53,960 --> 00:47:58,840
Speaker 1: president of the Carnegie Endowment of being a Soviet agent.

905
00:47:59,160 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 1: So what the left wanted to say for a long

906
00:48:02,239 --> 00:48:07,520
Speaker 1: time is this. Nobody accused another kind of mid level

907
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:10,719
Speaker 1: guy of being a communist. Why did they care? No,

908
00:48:11,280 --> 00:48:13,080
Speaker 1: check out the headlines.

909
00:48:13,520 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 2: We're gonna take a short commercial break where I'm come

910
00:48:15,440 --> 00:48:18,480
Speaker 2: into our second hour. This is so much better than

911
00:48:18,520 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 2: I even thought there's gonna be. And I thought it

912
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:22,759
Speaker 2: was gonna be great. Now this is fantastic. One of

913
00:48:22,800 --> 00:48:24,640
Speaker 2: the questions I might ask you to think about until

914
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:28,640
Speaker 2: we come back is why has this history not talked about?

915
00:48:28,760 --> 00:48:30,960
Speaker 2: It's not taught anywhere, and it's not even talked about

916
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:34,160
Speaker 2: in the city. If we were to talk about McCarthy

917
00:48:34,239 --> 00:48:37,799
Speaker 2: and Hugh wac and Whittaker Chambers and World War Two

918
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:40,400
Speaker 2: and all of it, it's like you're talking about the

919
00:48:40,480 --> 00:48:42,759
Speaker 2: ancient Romans and Greeks. In fact, people know the ancient

920
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 2: Romans and Greek better than this short commercial break Sam

921
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:49,439
Speaker 2: Tanne House for Christmas, particularly if you have a young

922
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:50,160
Speaker 2: person in your house.

923
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:53,240
Speaker 1: Buckley, the man in the Revolution,