1
00:00:13,200 --> 00:00:16,239
Speaker 1: Hi, you guys. Welcome back to Killer Thriller Docu Edition.

2
00:00:16,440 --> 00:00:18,520
Speaker 1: I'm your host, Jen Fessler, and we are going in

3
00:00:18,560 --> 00:00:21,200
Speaker 1: depth and behind the scenes of the most watched and

4
00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:25,239
Speaker 1: most binged true crime documentaries and docuseries. And today we're

5
00:00:25,280 --> 00:00:29,320
Speaker 1: diving into the Netflix documentary Evil Influencer, the Jody Hildebrandt Story.

6
00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:32,839
Speaker 1: This is a story that I remember hearing about and

7
00:00:33,080 --> 00:00:37,880
Speaker 1: it was and is a horrific story about, in my mind,

8
00:00:38,240 --> 00:00:40,879
Speaker 1: crazy people, evil people. But we will get to that.

9
00:00:41,320 --> 00:00:45,159
Speaker 1: Ruby Frankie was a well known parenting YouTuber. Behind the scenes,

10
00:00:45,240 --> 00:00:48,400
Speaker 1: she had fallen under the influence of another evil person

11
00:00:48,640 --> 00:00:52,239
Speaker 1: and in my humble opinion, Jody Hildebrant, a therapist who

12
00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:56,240
Speaker 1: preached extreme religious based beliefs, teaching the children who misbehaved

13
00:00:56,280 --> 00:00:59,000
Speaker 1: were evil if you can imagine this, and needed to

14
00:00:59,040 --> 00:01:01,760
Speaker 1: be punished. So in August twenty twenty three, one of

15
00:01:01,840 --> 00:01:05,960
Speaker 1: Ruby's young sons escaped from JODI's home. This scene in

16
00:01:05,959 --> 00:01:10,360
Speaker 1: this documentary is so devastating. He was malnourished, he was injured,

17
00:01:10,840 --> 00:01:13,840
Speaker 1: he was bound with duct tape on his wrists and

18
00:01:13,880 --> 00:01:16,679
Speaker 1: his ankles, and he ran over to a neighbor and

19
00:01:16,760 --> 00:01:19,040
Speaker 1: I think he knocked on three neighbors doors and begged

20
00:01:19,080 --> 00:01:22,720
Speaker 1: for help. Finally, finally a man came out and helped

21
00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:25,959
Speaker 1: him and call the police. And when they arrived, they

22
00:01:26,000 --> 00:01:28,720
Speaker 1: went back to the house and found another child inside

23
00:01:28,880 --> 00:01:33,679
Speaker 1: in a similarly horrific, disgusting condition. So what followed exposed

24
00:01:33,680 --> 00:01:36,680
Speaker 1: a pattern of severe abuse hidden behind the language of discipline,

25
00:01:36,880 --> 00:01:41,360
Speaker 1: faith and control. It is wild. Both women were arrested

26
00:01:41,400 --> 00:01:45,160
Speaker 1: and later pleaded guilty to child abuse. And today I

27
00:01:45,200 --> 00:01:48,800
Speaker 1: am speaking with licensed marriage and family therapist Natasha Helfer,

28
00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:52,800
Speaker 1: who appears in the documentary and also overlapped in that

29
00:01:52,880 --> 00:01:56,400
Speaker 1: same therapy community as Jody Hildebrandt saw a lot of

30
00:01:56,440 --> 00:02:01,080
Speaker 1: her ex clients, and hopeful she can make some of

31
00:02:01,120 --> 00:02:03,680
Speaker 1: this makes sense to me because it's still keeping me

32
00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:07,800
Speaker 1: up at night. So you guys, Natasha, Hi, Natasha. Before

33
00:02:07,800 --> 00:02:10,800
Speaker 1: I ask you anything, I want to say that you know,

34
00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:15,840
Speaker 1: sky Boardman, We've we've interviewed her, that the brilliant sky

35
00:02:16,240 --> 00:02:20,120
Speaker 1: the director. Yeah, and she's you know, she's huge. But

36
00:02:20,919 --> 00:02:23,440
Speaker 1: she makes these choices and I assume you were having

37
00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:26,520
Speaker 1: you on with one of them in terms of casting,

38
00:02:27,040 --> 00:02:32,720
Speaker 1: and what a great choice, because I feel like without you,

39
00:02:32,760 --> 00:02:36,639
Speaker 1: first of all, it was you know, terrifying and depressing

40
00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:41,520
Speaker 1: and upsetting, but having your point of view was brilliant

41
00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:45,079
Speaker 1: and in a way sort of just so helpful because

42
00:02:45,120 --> 00:02:50,320
Speaker 1: how does this happen? Right? This craziness and our listeners,

43
00:02:50,480 --> 00:02:54,480
Speaker 1: whether or not you guys have watched your this is

44
00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:56,760
Speaker 1: not something that you won't be able to follow because

45
00:02:57,639 --> 00:03:01,480
Speaker 1: happily we're talking to Natasha, who is is a certified

46
00:03:01,520 --> 00:03:06,880
Speaker 1: sex therapist and licensed marriage family therapists. Right, so you've

47
00:03:06,880 --> 00:03:08,799
Speaker 1: spent decades on this.

48
00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:13,920
Speaker 2: I'm thirty thirty years in Wow.

49
00:03:13,320 --> 00:03:15,760
Speaker 1: We're gonna have to talk afterwards. Maybe we'll exchange numbers.

50
00:03:17,200 --> 00:03:21,400
Speaker 1: I could use your help, everyone can, right, but I

51
00:03:21,480 --> 00:03:24,200
Speaker 1: feel like no one more than the people that had

52
00:03:24,720 --> 00:03:27,720
Speaker 1: been through the nightmare that was Jody Hildebrant. Yeah, okay,

53
00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:32,200
Speaker 1: so tell me I was unclear you met Jody or

54
00:03:32,200 --> 00:03:35,040
Speaker 1: I know you have clients that left Jody and needed

55
00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,360
Speaker 1: you just to help, you know, get through the trauma

56
00:03:38,480 --> 00:03:41,600
Speaker 1: of Jody and what she was teaching. Had you ever

57
00:03:41,640 --> 00:03:42,000
Speaker 1: met her?

58
00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:43,680
Speaker 2: I have never met her in person?

59
00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:47,440
Speaker 1: Okay, lucky you, yes, but in terms of hearing you

60
00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,440
Speaker 1: know her clients are her former clients. Did you have

61
00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:51,960
Speaker 1: a lot of them? And again a lot of this,

62
00:03:52,040 --> 00:03:54,280
Speaker 1: you guys will be answered in the dock, but I

63
00:03:54,320 --> 00:03:56,720
Speaker 1: could just talk about it forever. So and did they

64
00:03:56,760 --> 00:03:58,000
Speaker 1: have similar stories?

65
00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:02,200
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, I've met with quite a few. I mean,

66
00:04:02,240 --> 00:04:06,120
Speaker 2: I would say more than fifteen or twenty clients personally

67
00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:10,840
Speaker 2: that have been affected by her practices, and then anecdotally

68
00:04:10,960 --> 00:04:13,520
Speaker 2: just with other professionals and other colleagues of mine who

69
00:04:13,560 --> 00:04:18,480
Speaker 2: have also had a lot of people coming after that

70
00:04:18,600 --> 00:04:21,520
Speaker 2: kind of service is offered. And I think one of

71
00:04:21,520 --> 00:04:23,760
Speaker 2: the things I want to say really clearly is that

72
00:04:24,279 --> 00:04:27,200
Speaker 2: although Jodie Hildebrandt definitely took it to an extreme that

73
00:04:27,279 --> 00:04:30,760
Speaker 2: I don't think is as likely for as many professionals.

74
00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,040
Speaker 2: I do consider her a bit of a dime a

75
00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:34,960
Speaker 2: dozen problem in space.

76
00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:36,120
Speaker 1: Are you serious?

77
00:04:36,400 --> 00:04:39,240
Speaker 2: Oh? Yeah, yeah. I mean we have like Maurice Harker

78
00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:42,880
Speaker 2: who's running Sense of Healiman that that site is still

79
00:04:42,960 --> 00:04:47,200
Speaker 2: up that hasn't been shut down by regulatory boards or

80
00:04:47,240 --> 00:04:49,760
Speaker 2: the state of Utah. And I also come from a

81
00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:52,840
Speaker 2: history of living in Wichita, Kansas for over a decade

82
00:04:52,839 --> 00:04:55,560
Speaker 2: where it was very evangelical. So this is not just

83
00:04:55,600 --> 00:04:59,200
Speaker 2: a Mormon problem. This is a conservative religious problem right

84
00:04:59,279 --> 00:05:05,520
Speaker 2: in regard to to this porn panic that gets infiltrated

85
00:05:05,600 --> 00:05:08,960
Speaker 2: by clergy members usually you know, prophets and bishops and

86
00:05:09,000 --> 00:05:12,640
Speaker 2: priests and pastors and you know who are talking big,

87
00:05:12,760 --> 00:05:16,640
Speaker 2: big consequence type stuff when it comes to people's sexuality

88
00:05:16,640 --> 00:05:19,839
Speaker 2: and how they express their sexuality. And then Christian or

89
00:05:19,880 --> 00:05:24,440
Speaker 2: religious or Mormon or Jewish or Catholic, you know, therapists

90
00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:28,520
Speaker 2: who are not able to unwind their own religious bias

91
00:05:29,600 --> 00:05:35,000
Speaker 2: fall into these kinds of narratives very, very readily. I mean,

92
00:05:35,000 --> 00:05:39,120
Speaker 2: the porn addiction model is alive and well, especially in

93
00:05:39,200 --> 00:05:44,279
Speaker 2: religious communities, and it's it's a debunked model. It's not

94
00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,120
Speaker 2: an effective model. It's not supported by any type of

95
00:05:48,160 --> 00:05:54,280
Speaker 2: association that is that has any weight in its association.

96
00:05:54,640 --> 00:05:57,800
Speaker 1: Well, I'm relieved to hear you say that, Yeah, this

97
00:05:57,880 --> 00:05:58,720
Speaker 1: is a way.

98
00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:01,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is an extreme example of something that's happening

99
00:06:02,279 --> 00:06:05,839
Speaker 2: on the regular and people are being harmed by religiously biased,

100
00:06:07,160 --> 00:06:11,200
Speaker 2: non trained, especially in the sexuality field therapists. It's happening

101
00:06:11,520 --> 00:06:12,600
Speaker 2: all over the place.

102
00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:15,919
Speaker 1: You know, Natasha, I thought back to something that happened

103
00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,800
Speaker 1: to me when I was young, which this is not

104
00:06:18,880 --> 00:06:22,960
Speaker 1: about me, but that really affected I think for so

105
00:06:23,000 --> 00:06:25,560
Speaker 1: many years my sexuality, and it was nothing like a

106
00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,920
Speaker 1: Jodie Hildebrant. It was just the shape, this shame based

107
00:06:29,880 --> 00:06:33,240
Speaker 1: message that I got and once, so I can only

108
00:06:33,279 --> 00:06:37,120
Speaker 1: imagine having And I grew up Jewish and we didn't

109
00:06:37,160 --> 00:06:39,760
Speaker 1: talk about a lot about this, and certainly I've had

110
00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:41,880
Speaker 1: my share of therapist and I never felt shamed by

111
00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:46,400
Speaker 1: my sexuality. But that happened once to me, and I

112
00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:50,600
Speaker 1: think it affected me and my sexuality for years and

113
00:06:50,680 --> 00:06:54,720
Speaker 1: years and years. So I can only imagine having, you know,

114
00:06:55,040 --> 00:07:00,479
Speaker 1: this kind of rhetoric thrown at you, this shame based rhetoric.

115
00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:04,520
Speaker 1: It's just criminal. Which obviously she's in jail now, so

116
00:07:05,480 --> 00:07:05,720
Speaker 1: you know.

117
00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:09,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, although it's not criminal, unfortunate.

118
00:07:09,080 --> 00:07:12,360
Speaker 1: Right, it feels criminal, right, right, It's not right.

119
00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:16,400
Speaker 2: To right shame people in a therapy type setting, and

120
00:07:16,520 --> 00:07:19,800
Speaker 2: it's very difficult and even with the Supreme Court, you know,

121
00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:23,640
Speaker 2: just recently talking about therapy speech is free speech instead

122
00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:27,480
Speaker 2: of trained speech. You can see how that, yeah, or

123
00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:31,760
Speaker 2: open right, or a lot of therapists to basically function

124
00:07:31,880 --> 00:07:35,560
Speaker 2: from their own religious bias instead of their training, which

125
00:07:35,640 --> 00:07:39,880
Speaker 2: are basic training, basic ethics. One oh one in any

126
00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:44,120
Speaker 2: type of therapy program is to leave your religious bias at.

127
00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:46,600
Speaker 1: The bable bias right to write.

128
00:07:46,480 --> 00:07:49,920
Speaker 2: Which grunted is impossible. I mean, we are all biased

129
00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:52,880
Speaker 2: individuals in some way or another. But there's a lot

130
00:07:52,920 --> 00:07:57,400
Speaker 2: of work and ethical treatment that a practitioner should be

131
00:07:57,960 --> 00:08:00,840
Speaker 2: really you know, thinking about their own positions, how they

132
00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:05,200
Speaker 2: come forward and when these churches and the reason that

133
00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,520
Speaker 2: a lot of these the reason why Jodie Hildebrank could

134
00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,080
Speaker 2: be as successful as she was is that she was

135
00:08:10,120 --> 00:08:13,000
Speaker 2: supported indirectly by the Church of US Christ of Latter

136
00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:15,960
Speaker 2: day Saints, akay, the Mormon Church, right. And I saw

137
00:08:15,960 --> 00:08:19,640
Speaker 2: this also in the big kind of mega churches and

138
00:08:19,760 --> 00:08:22,880
Speaker 2: evangelical kansas. I saw it in the Lutheran and Catholic

139
00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,880
Speaker 2: churches when I lived in Wisconsin and Michigan. And so

140
00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,480
Speaker 2: it's this idea that instead of really looking at our

141
00:08:29,520 --> 00:08:33,960
Speaker 2: ethics and our regulatory boards to manage how we practice,

142
00:08:34,000 --> 00:08:37,840
Speaker 2: we look at our religious leaders, and the Mormon Church

143
00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:42,680
Speaker 2: in particular specifically looks for therapists who are not going

144
00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:46,720
Speaker 2: to challenge their doctrine, their ideas. And when the church

145
00:08:46,920 --> 00:08:50,079
Speaker 2: basically says, you know, you can't be homosexual, you can't

146
00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:53,560
Speaker 2: be you know, non monogamous, you can't be looking at porn.

147
00:08:53,640 --> 00:08:56,959
Speaker 2: You can't be having premarital sex. You can't be masturbating.

148
00:08:57,000 --> 00:09:00,280
Speaker 2: I mean that is so, that is right. And you've

149
00:09:00,280 --> 00:09:03,360
Speaker 2: got therapists who are crazy and their treatment plans saying

150
00:09:03,400 --> 00:09:06,720
Speaker 2: things like working on not masturbating as part of the goal.

151
00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:12,560
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Religious so scary to walk around feeling

152
00:09:12,600 --> 00:09:14,000
Speaker 1: such shame right.

153
00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:19,640
Speaker 2: Of normal human sexual diversity issues, right, and this is

154
00:09:19,720 --> 00:09:24,840
Speaker 2: the challenge we have. And so I understand that Jody

155
00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,600
Speaker 2: Hildebrant brings a lot of like, you know, awe and

156
00:09:27,800 --> 00:09:30,000
Speaker 2: like wow, and I can't believe this happened, and it

157
00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:32,959
Speaker 2: seems so extreme. But when I'm hoping if people are

158
00:09:33,000 --> 00:09:35,760
Speaker 2: listening to me, is like, if you come from any

159
00:09:35,800 --> 00:09:39,240
Speaker 2: religious background, some of this happened to you too, right,

160
00:09:39,320 --> 00:09:41,880
Speaker 2: and this is much more common. Maybe we don't have

161
00:09:42,000 --> 00:09:45,400
Speaker 2: marks on our hands and legs. Maybe we weren't strapped

162
00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:47,960
Speaker 2: by duct tape like this, you know, this poor young

163
00:09:48,000 --> 00:09:51,440
Speaker 2: person was. But all of us have been in a

164
00:09:51,480 --> 00:09:55,840
Speaker 2: lot of ways spiritually and sexually abused psychologically as far

165
00:09:55,880 --> 00:09:59,719
Speaker 2: as feeling like we need to bypass our own identities,

166
00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:01,240
Speaker 2: our own eroticism.

167
00:10:01,760 --> 00:10:05,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, I think about friends I have that

168
00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:12,120
Speaker 1: are Catholic, or church. And I'm not commenting on anybody's religion,

169
00:10:12,160 --> 00:10:15,400
Speaker 1: believe me, but I just you're reminding me of times

170
00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,280
Speaker 1: that friends of mine have used let's say, elders in

171
00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:22,720
Speaker 1: the church as sort of therapists, right, So I would

172
00:10:22,760 --> 00:10:26,200
Speaker 1: think that that's that's a little scary, right, Like, I've

173
00:10:26,200 --> 00:10:29,439
Speaker 1: been in therapy for so many years and I feel

174
00:10:30,080 --> 00:10:34,240
Speaker 1: no judgment and no bias. I mean, you're saying that

175
00:10:34,360 --> 00:10:37,120
Speaker 1: therapists obviously have biased but I don't feel that from

176
00:10:37,160 --> 00:10:41,720
Speaker 1: my therapist. Just seems so contrary to everything that therapy

177
00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:46,840
Speaker 1: tries to be has been for me. So yeah, tell

178
00:10:46,880 --> 00:10:51,480
Speaker 1: me how you were how you first realized that Jodie

179
00:10:51,559 --> 00:10:54,360
Speaker 1: was bad news? What were you hearing that was sort

180
00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:54,840
Speaker 1: of common?

181
00:10:55,160 --> 00:10:58,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I've been involved in the Utah scene

182
00:10:58,000 --> 00:11:00,640
Speaker 2: for most of my career, mainly because of my faith

183
00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:01,840
Speaker 2: background and I grew up.

184
00:11:01,840 --> 00:11:03,880
Speaker 1: Now, that's what I was about to thank you for

185
00:11:03,920 --> 00:11:06,800
Speaker 1: saying that. I was about to ask you, and can

186
00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:08,720
Speaker 1: I ask you something personal? I don't want to totally.

187
00:11:08,960 --> 00:11:12,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, if I'm uncomfortable, I'll let you know, but you can.

188
00:11:12,679 --> 00:11:14,960
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, I should your therapist, you would know when

189
00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:18,560
Speaker 1: to set your boundary. So but My question is where

190
00:11:18,559 --> 00:11:21,439
Speaker 1: are you now? Did you is it called X communicator

191
00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:23,160
Speaker 1: or is it did you leave the Mormon Church? Are

192
00:11:23,160 --> 00:11:25,000
Speaker 1: you still part of the Mormon Church now?

193
00:11:25,040 --> 00:11:29,000
Speaker 2: I was formally excommunicated in twenty twenty one, specifically for

194
00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:31,400
Speaker 2: a lot of the sexual advocacy work that I was

195
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:32,560
Speaker 2: being very public about.

196
00:11:33,040 --> 00:11:34,400
Speaker 1: How old were you? May I ask that?

197
00:11:35,040 --> 00:11:38,360
Speaker 2: So this was four years ago. I'm fifty three now,

198
00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:39,320
Speaker 2: so forty nine.

199
00:11:39,360 --> 00:11:42,920
Speaker 1: Wow, that's recent. So you you were doing therapy for

200
00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:47,520
Speaker 1: thirty years as a member of the Mormon Church. That

201
00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:51,080
Speaker 1: is so, and still you were able to separate that out.

202
00:11:51,200 --> 00:11:52,760
Speaker 1: That must have been very challenging.

203
00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:56,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it's a whole journey. You know, I started

204
00:11:56,880 --> 00:11:59,760
Speaker 2: very young. I did not follow the classic Mormon timeline

205
00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:02,160
Speaker 2: ofting married and having children. I did actually go to

206
00:12:02,600 --> 00:12:06,960
Speaker 2: I got my education and became a licensed therapist intentionally

207
00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:10,120
Speaker 2: before I had children, so that I would be able

208
00:12:10,160 --> 00:12:13,719
Speaker 2: to be more flexible with the whole you know, kind

209
00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,760
Speaker 2: of directions that we get as women in the Mormon

210
00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:17,640
Speaker 2: Church to stay at home with our children. That's kind

211
00:12:17,640 --> 00:12:20,440
Speaker 2: of like seen as the ideal righteous thing to do

212
00:12:20,559 --> 00:12:22,679
Speaker 2: instead of having a career. So that's a whole other

213
00:12:24,080 --> 00:12:27,880
Speaker 2: gender type of thing that's happening, which is also interesting

214
00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,240
Speaker 2: to see Jodie Hildebrant being a female, you know and

215
00:12:30,920 --> 00:12:33,560
Speaker 2: having the success that she had when a lot of

216
00:12:33,559 --> 00:12:36,120
Speaker 2: times that's discouraged in the Mormon church is not to

217
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:40,720
Speaker 2: be so career focused as a woman in particular. So anyways,

218
00:12:40,760 --> 00:12:43,400
Speaker 2: I did that. So yes, I'm like twenty three years old,

219
00:12:43,440 --> 00:12:45,800
Speaker 2: twenty five years old, you know, becoming a little baby

220
00:12:45,840 --> 00:12:49,920
Speaker 2: therapist and very entrenched in my own religious upbringing and

221
00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:54,400
Speaker 2: belief system and loved my faith, you know, and found

222
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,720
Speaker 2: it very useful to me at the time. I mean,

223
00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:58,719
Speaker 2: I didn't have a lot of critical thinking skills and

224
00:12:58,880 --> 00:13:02,400
Speaker 2: at the time, yeah, as far as so then having

225
00:13:02,440 --> 00:13:05,760
Speaker 2: to you know, be confronted with people who did not

226
00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,000
Speaker 2: fit my faith, communities, values system, people who are having

227
00:13:10,080 --> 00:13:15,040
Speaker 2: sex outside of marriage, gay people, trans people, women who

228
00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:18,160
Speaker 2: wanted to be feminist and have their careers, but all

229
00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,359
Speaker 2: within the primarily of the Mormon community, is where I,

230
00:13:21,400 --> 00:13:23,960
Speaker 2: you know, saw eighty to ninety percent of my clients.

231
00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:27,679
Speaker 1: I have to be careful because I could just grill you,

232
00:13:28,200 --> 00:13:29,880
Speaker 1: well maybe grilled, but like I just want to know

233
00:13:29,960 --> 00:13:33,720
Speaker 1: more about you and your background and house. That's a

234
00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,400
Speaker 1: whole other. I feel like that's that's maybe you'll come

235
00:13:36,440 --> 00:13:39,840
Speaker 1: back for that because I find it absolutely fascinating. So

236
00:13:39,840 --> 00:13:44,679
Speaker 1: I'm going to try to stick. Okay, Jody built, as

237
00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:49,439
Speaker 1: you know, a massive following. What do you think her

238
00:13:49,840 --> 00:13:52,839
Speaker 1: greatest tactic? What was the hook? How did she get

239
00:13:52,920 --> 00:13:55,920
Speaker 1: so many people on the line for such madness?

240
00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,320
Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, I think one of them, I think guilt.

241
00:13:59,559 --> 00:14:01,560
Speaker 2: Maybe one of the things that she did which is

242
00:14:01,600 --> 00:14:07,160
Speaker 2: really unethical is to promise results that were aligned with

243
00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:12,200
Speaker 2: church doctrine. Right, So, if you think about how this

244
00:14:13,240 --> 00:14:17,760
Speaker 2: the pornography dilemma runs so deep in the Mormon psyche.

245
00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,080
Speaker 2: First of all, we really expect people to fit in

246
00:14:21,200 --> 00:14:24,240
Speaker 2: just a very very tight box of what you're what

247
00:14:24,400 --> 00:14:27,400
Speaker 2: healthy or worthy sexuality can look like.

248
00:14:27,760 --> 00:14:27,960
Speaker 1: Right.

249
00:14:28,080 --> 00:14:30,360
Speaker 2: It is it almost impossible for anybody to actually be

250
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:35,000
Speaker 2: in there authentically, right. So and so then you have

251
00:14:35,040 --> 00:14:38,640
Speaker 2: all this erotic energy that's really kind of in a

252
00:14:38,640 --> 00:14:42,840
Speaker 2: lot of ways castrated, and a couple a lot many

253
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:45,080
Speaker 2: times doesn't know how to talk about sex, doesn't know

254
00:14:45,160 --> 00:14:47,960
Speaker 2: how to have good sex, doesn't know how to have

255
00:14:48,040 --> 00:14:53,800
Speaker 2: even the sexual language to negotiate their sexuality together. And pornography,

256
00:14:54,520 --> 00:15:00,040
Speaker 2: erotic materials are very accessible, and they're primarily used to

257
00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:03,760
Speaker 2: for people to masturbate, and when people are feeling lonely

258
00:15:03,880 --> 00:15:08,720
Speaker 2: in their relationships or just libido discrepancies, erotic discrepancies five

259
00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:11,240
Speaker 2: hundred thousand reasons that are actually quite healthy for people

260
00:15:11,320 --> 00:15:15,400
Speaker 2: to turn to solo sexuality, which you know, ak's masturbation,

261
00:15:15,640 --> 00:15:18,400
Speaker 2: and so people will use erotic materials to masturbate. That's

262
00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:20,360
Speaker 2: what most people are using pornograph.

263
00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:24,160
Speaker 1: I think that even now, I have shame around it. Yeah,

264
00:15:24,480 --> 00:15:30,440
Speaker 1: and I have now, And you know, I think about Ethan,

265
00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:33,760
Speaker 1: who is listeners. I'm sure you've seen the doc, but

266
00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,720
Speaker 1: if not, this sweet young man who was newly married

267
00:15:39,240 --> 00:15:43,280
Speaker 1: and put through the ringer. I mean, I even I'm sorry,

268
00:15:43,400 --> 00:15:45,560
Speaker 1: not that it matters, but like his face looks so

269
00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,080
Speaker 1: you can almost see the shame. His face was so

270
00:15:49,200 --> 00:15:53,640
Speaker 1: sweet and rite Ethan, that was from what I remember,

271
00:15:53,680 --> 00:15:57,200
Speaker 1: and the shame in his when he was describing porn

272
00:15:57,400 --> 00:16:01,560
Speaker 1: and the wife leaving him, it's just heartbreaking.

273
00:16:01,960 --> 00:16:06,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, awful, right, And that's what these churches do. And

274
00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,160
Speaker 2: again I'm not trying to be anti religion. Like I said,

275
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:12,920
Speaker 2: I've been religious my whole life until they kicked me out.

276
00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,480
Speaker 1: Do you still consider yourself Mormon. See, I can't help it.

277
00:16:29,640 --> 00:16:31,200
Speaker 1: I can't help it. I'm sorry. I have to like

278
00:16:31,240 --> 00:16:32,280
Speaker 1: try to talk about the doc.

279
00:16:32,560 --> 00:16:36,920
Speaker 2: No, that's okay. I myself as Mormon, although they wouldn't

280
00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,480
Speaker 2: want me to identify that way, and although I wouldn't

281
00:16:40,520 --> 00:16:46,040
Speaker 2: identify as a traditional or legalistic believer, I would say

282
00:16:46,360 --> 00:16:49,000
Speaker 2: abstract in my beliefs, I've become much more spiritual than

283
00:16:49,040 --> 00:16:52,440
Speaker 2: I would say, you know, following certain dogma. But there

284
00:16:52,480 --> 00:16:55,080
Speaker 2: was a lot of spirituality that I found a value

285
00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:59,640
Speaker 2: in my upbringing and that I've taken with me. So yeah,

286
00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:01,840
Speaker 2: But you know, when you talk about this young man,

287
00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:06,000
Speaker 2: that was my experiences. These really good people, like really

288
00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:10,280
Speaker 2: terrible trying to do their best, trying to be the

289
00:17:10,359 --> 00:17:14,000
Speaker 2: best dads or moms or you know, church members, and

290
00:17:14,040 --> 00:17:16,680
Speaker 2: they're volunteering their time, and she.

291
00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:20,240
Speaker 1: Took his daughter from him, Jody, that's the best people.

292
00:17:20,680 --> 00:17:22,399
Speaker 1: Disgusting And because.

293
00:17:22,240 --> 00:17:27,640
Speaker 2: This inability for us to have any tolerance for solo sexuality,

294
00:17:27,720 --> 00:17:31,720
Speaker 2: we cannot touch our own bodies. This is this is Christianity,

295
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:34,240
Speaker 2: this is Judaism, this is is it?

296
00:17:34,320 --> 00:17:36,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, I'm not a religious Jew,

297
00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:37,840
Speaker 1: but I guess that makes sense if I.

298
00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:41,680
Speaker 2: Think if you go into the Orthodox, yes, that's all

299
00:17:41,720 --> 00:17:45,840
Speaker 2: of these religions right, right, there is this inability to

300
00:17:46,240 --> 00:17:50,679
Speaker 2: really be sexual with yourself and your sexuality. I call

301
00:17:50,760 --> 00:17:54,480
Speaker 2: it ownership model is really trickled down into this. Everybody

302
00:17:54,520 --> 00:17:58,160
Speaker 2: else owns your sexuality. God owns it, your parents own it,

303
00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:01,600
Speaker 2: your religious leaders own it. Your future spouse even if

304
00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,679
Speaker 2: you haven't met them, own it. So then they can

305
00:18:03,760 --> 00:18:06,800
Speaker 2: be mad if you had some premarital experiences because you

306
00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,600
Speaker 2: were supposed to hold out for them, right, pretty own

307
00:18:09,840 --> 00:18:14,399
Speaker 2: sexuality instead of yourself, right, Yeah, already sets everybody up

308
00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:19,240
Speaker 2: for sexual failure, for erotic sexual failure, especially relationally, because

309
00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:21,240
Speaker 2: if you can't be in touch with yourself, how in

310
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:22,600
Speaker 2: the heck are you supposed to be in touch with

311
00:18:22,640 --> 00:18:28,040
Speaker 2: another person. So these communities are rife with sexual shame,

312
00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:31,800
Speaker 2: purity cultures, and other terms that's used a lot to

313
00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:36,840
Speaker 2: basically contain people in containers that were never meant to

314
00:18:36,920 --> 00:18:42,719
Speaker 2: be human containers. And therefore everybody's failing. Everybody's failing.

315
00:18:43,280 --> 00:18:45,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like even as you're talking, I mean I remember

316
00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:49,560
Speaker 1: as a teenager, you know, sneaking magazines into a bathroom

317
00:18:49,600 --> 00:18:52,080
Speaker 1: and feeling such shame around it, right.

318
00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:57,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, asking a question, Yeah, like I can't ask that question.

319
00:18:57,200 --> 00:18:59,920
Speaker 2: And so yeah, that's what I was seeing so much,

320
00:19:00,000 --> 00:19:02,719
Speaker 2: which is that people, really great people, really great couples

321
00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:06,360
Speaker 2: who otherwise are getting along pretty well or are are

322
00:19:06,480 --> 00:19:09,160
Speaker 2: you know, parenting well or doing you know, they're doing

323
00:19:09,160 --> 00:19:11,040
Speaker 2: their goals and they're going to church and they're having

324
00:19:11,119 --> 00:19:15,800
Speaker 2: their families. But because pornography enters the picture now, especially

325
00:19:15,920 --> 00:19:19,159
Speaker 2: in a heterosexual relationship, the woman is trained by the

326
00:19:19,240 --> 00:19:23,159
Speaker 2: religion to see that as the biggest threat of all time.

327
00:19:23,600 --> 00:19:26,920
Speaker 2: And now you're potentially married to an addict, You're married

328
00:19:26,920 --> 00:19:30,280
Speaker 2: to somebody who's out of control, somebody deviant or like right,

329
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:34,719
Speaker 2: a person is a threat to your children, who's a

330
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,960
Speaker 2: threat to your family system, who's a threat to your marriage?

331
00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:41,359
Speaker 2: And it's so gendered because oftentimes, when I saw it

332
00:19:41,400 --> 00:19:43,960
Speaker 2: that the woman was the one who was looking at pornography,

333
00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:46,960
Speaker 2: the religious man didn't usually have such an issue with it,

334
00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:49,680
Speaker 2: and it was actually a way, once we could talk

335
00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,840
Speaker 2: about it, that they could actually enhance their eroticism. But

336
00:19:52,920 --> 00:19:55,960
Speaker 2: when it hit this other gender norm, which is the

337
00:19:56,440 --> 00:19:59,840
Speaker 2: husband is looking interesting, is right, And it falls into

338
00:19:59,840 --> 00:20:03,240
Speaker 2: this this whole gendered war that we have about how men,

339
00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:05,439
Speaker 2: and we do this outside of religion too, right, we

340
00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:08,040
Speaker 2: talk about men in some really horrible ways. And granted

341
00:20:08,080 --> 00:20:12,080
Speaker 2: sometimes men have earned that reputation, but a lot of times,

342
00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:14,560
Speaker 2: these really great, good men who are just trying to

343
00:20:14,600 --> 00:20:19,280
Speaker 2: be good church members, husbands, fathers, and are really doing

344
00:20:19,280 --> 00:20:23,840
Speaker 2: a great job are seen as perverse, objectifying, thinking only

345
00:20:23,880 --> 00:20:26,440
Speaker 2: with their dicks, and so they feel awful. And then

346
00:20:26,440 --> 00:20:29,560
Speaker 2: the woman is kind of propped up by the church

347
00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:32,920
Speaker 2: as the righteous one. We've got to help her, We've

348
00:20:32,920 --> 00:20:35,280
Speaker 2: got to, you know, keep her away from this horrible

349
00:20:35,320 --> 00:20:39,000
Speaker 2: man who's doing these horrible, perverse things. Yes, and you

350
00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,399
Speaker 2: can see then why Jodie Hildebrandt had so much power,

351
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:46,200
Speaker 2: because it wasn't so key love power. She tapped into

352
00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:47,400
Speaker 2: the church's power.

353
00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,639
Speaker 1: I would think that as on opposite ends of the spectrum,

354
00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:55,560
Speaker 1: you have tapped in two in the opposite way, right

355
00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:00,719
Speaker 1: in the best way into communities where this is so pervasive.

356
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:03,200
Speaker 1: I don't even know how you have time to sit

357
00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 1: down with me today, So I'm sure your phone does

358
00:21:06,320 --> 00:21:11,080
Speaker 1: not stop ringing because just you know, my own experience,

359
00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:13,360
Speaker 1: which was nothing like this, but there is so much

360
00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 1: shame around around all of that. And you know, I

361
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:23,040
Speaker 1: think about how Ruby, Frankie and her husband was so

362
00:21:24,960 --> 00:21:27,160
Speaker 1: like open to Jody, and I don't know if that's

363
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 1: the word, but they were so I don't even know

364
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,639
Speaker 1: if it was susceptible because they were just horrible humans.

365
00:21:31,680 --> 00:21:33,960
Speaker 1: And I'm sure that you, as a therapist can say

366
00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:37,280
Speaker 1: they weren't horrible humans. Maybe their background or however you

367
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:41,480
Speaker 1: see them, you know, set this up. But the misery

368
00:21:41,520 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 1: they caused, the abuse that they practiced, and could Jody

369
00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:48,919
Speaker 1: sort of see an in there was Jody, do you

370
00:21:48,920 --> 00:21:53,199
Speaker 1: think I feel like, no, you maybe you'll say no,

371
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 1: but intrinsically evil. I hate her, So there's that after

372
00:21:56,760 --> 00:21:59,480
Speaker 1: watching this, and that's not healthy either. I hate her

373
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:01,720
Speaker 1: and I hate Ruby because it's the kid thing, right

374
00:22:01,800 --> 00:22:05,919
Speaker 1: that just yeah, it kills you. So but did you

375
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:09,840
Speaker 1: think that Jodie saw something in Ruby that could be manipulated?

376
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:12,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I know that they wanted each other's followings, right,

377
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:14,760
Speaker 1: even their social media followings, and they use each other

378
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,600
Speaker 1: to create a business. But what was it that she

379
00:22:19,000 --> 00:22:21,679
Speaker 1: maybe saw in Ruby that she thought she was like,

380
00:22:21,680 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 1: this will this is perfect, this is this is you

381
00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:26,159
Speaker 1: know a great partner for me.

382
00:22:26,600 --> 00:22:28,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I would agree. I think that they were

383
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 2: both very successful social media influencers, and anytime you can

384
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,600
Speaker 2: connect with another influencer, I mean I do that as well.

385
00:22:34,640 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 2: You know, that's necessarily inherently an evil thing. It's just

386
00:22:37,160 --> 00:22:40,280
Speaker 2: kind of like a collaboration. But I do think that

387
00:22:40,320 --> 00:22:43,880
Speaker 2: there was an intrinsic vulnerability there for both of them.

388
00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:47,000
Speaker 2: You know, I do think, although I agree with you

389
00:22:47,040 --> 00:22:49,119
Speaker 2: that these actions were evil, I don't, you know, I

390
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:51,120
Speaker 2: don't have an evil meter for people.

391
00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:53,679
Speaker 1: I know, and I shouldn't. I'm trying, well.

392
00:22:53,880 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 2: Okay, but I think what happened. We see this all

393
00:22:56,560 --> 00:22:58,359
Speaker 2: the time, and it's so much easier to see it

394
00:22:58,400 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 2: and another person's religious upbringing. Right, so when nine to

395
00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,199
Speaker 2: eleven happens, for example, we're all like, well, look at

396
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:09,200
Speaker 2: all these scriptures that the Islamic people have about destruction.

397
00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,000
Speaker 2: But we have those in the Bible too, you know,

398
00:23:12,119 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 2: and we so it's harder to look at your own people,

399
00:23:15,280 --> 00:23:18,800
Speaker 2: your own community, your own group, and it's easier to

400
00:23:18,920 --> 00:23:22,360
Speaker 2: other all the other people. But these her abilities are

401
00:23:22,520 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 2: very common, right, So for Jody to be to see

402
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,680
Speaker 2: herself as a therapist, who is I'm not going to

403
00:23:29,760 --> 00:23:33,760
Speaker 2: follow exactly what the therapy community wants because I know

404
00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:37,439
Speaker 2: better because my church is telling me that I know better,

405
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:40,280
Speaker 2: and this is the way, not the therapy way, is

406
00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:42,600
Speaker 2: not the way. The church way is the way to

407
00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:43,199
Speaker 2: be the therapist.

408
00:23:43,280 --> 00:23:46,520
Speaker 1: But does the Mormon church? But the violence look okay?

409
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:50,679
Speaker 1: So the fact that she was able to it, it

410
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:55,359
Speaker 1: feels like they were partnered up in the abuse. So again,

411
00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,439
Speaker 1: listeners who've seen the doc probably if they haven't known

412
00:23:59,440 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 1: the story, but they it feels like they together. Right.

413
00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:07,720
Speaker 1: So Ruby and Jody abused these children, and you guys,

414
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:11,760
Speaker 1: when you watch her, if you watch it, it's so hard.

415
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:14,800
Speaker 1: It's so hard to see that poor little boy knocking

416
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:17,760
Speaker 1: on that door, emaciated and with his wrist bound. But

417
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:21,560
Speaker 1: my question is that doesn't feel like it's a Mormon thing,

418
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,840
Speaker 1: Like that level of abusing children is not a religious thing.

419
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:28,200
Speaker 1: I mean, they found each other and they were both

420
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 1: capable of these heinous acts. Do you think they saw

421
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:32,440
Speaker 1: something at each other.

422
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,359
Speaker 2: More complicated than seeing it in each other? And although

423
00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:38,239
Speaker 2: I would agree, I don't think that the pope or

424
00:24:38,280 --> 00:24:42,120
Speaker 2: the prophet or any you know, major leader would say yes,

425
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:47,320
Speaker 2: it's okay to abuse children physically. Boy, boy, are they

426
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:52,520
Speaker 2: role modeling psychological abuse? They are in psychological abuse. The

427
00:24:52,600 --> 00:24:56,639
Speaker 2: churches that basically say you're evil, you're pernicious to your perverse,

428
00:24:57,040 --> 00:24:59,840
Speaker 2: if you're gay, if you're trans, if you're premar at

429
00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:04,720
Speaker 2: all sex person. They use very provocative, horrific language that,

430
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 2: as you say, just one time in a space that

431
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 2: downloaded for you in a way that you had to

432
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,239
Speaker 2: you know, work through that and that at once. And

433
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,040
Speaker 2: we are growing up in churches hearing this kind of

434
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:17,879
Speaker 2: stuff on the weekly.

435
00:25:18,280 --> 00:25:22,919
Speaker 1: Right. They both grew up Mormon, right, both Jody and Ruby,

436
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,439
Speaker 1: and so they had there was already an indoctrination. But

437
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: tell me how you think, Like, Okay, so this is

438
00:25:31,080 --> 00:25:33,240
Speaker 1: what you're going to do, Ruby, or this is what

439
00:25:33,240 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: we're gonna do Jody. We're going to tie them, we're

440
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:38,879
Speaker 1: going to tire our children up, and we're going to

441
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:44,280
Speaker 1: starve them and we're going to torture them. There's where

442
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:48,520
Speaker 1: is God? How do you? How did how did they

443
00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,600
Speaker 1: justify it? Like to me, Ruby and Jody, again, I

444
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:54,400
Speaker 1: know people aren't evil, their acts were evil, but how

445
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 1: did they make that? Okay? Like I look at these women,

446
00:25:57,680 --> 00:26:00,600
Speaker 1: like you must know that this is a use right.

447
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:03,720
Speaker 1: I can't imagine that this is church based that any

448
00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,239
Speaker 1: part of the Mormon Church condone, you know, tying your

449
00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:09,400
Speaker 1: kids up with duct tape and torturing.

450
00:26:09,480 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 2: That's not. However, the reason why I place the blame

451
00:26:15,440 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 2: on the churches and not just the Mormon Church as

452
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 2: well as the individuals is because this doesn't usually happen overnight.

453
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,560
Speaker 2: This is kind of like the classic metaphor of that.

454
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 2: You know, if you're going to boil frogs, if you

455
00:26:27,680 --> 00:26:29,440
Speaker 2: put them in super hot water, they're going to jump

456
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:31,600
Speaker 2: right out. But if you put them in the pot

457
00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 2: and then you you know, warm it up and warm

458
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,760
Speaker 2: it up and warm it up, they kind of stop

459
00:26:36,840 --> 00:26:39,480
Speaker 2: noticing and they die. And so that that's a that's

460
00:26:39,480 --> 00:26:41,840
Speaker 2: a pretty good metaphor for I think what happens for

461
00:26:42,160 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 2: any religious fanatics, you know, whether it's people you know,

462
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,639
Speaker 2: we have you know, we have the day Bells, we

463
00:26:47,720 --> 00:26:49,959
Speaker 2: have and not just the Mormons, and we have all

464
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:52,879
Speaker 2: kinds of issues that are in these religious communities that

465
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,920
Speaker 2: obviously that the religious community is going to go, oh,

466
00:26:55,920 --> 00:26:58,880
Speaker 2: they're an outlier. They're an outlier, and they are they

467
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:02,480
Speaker 2: are outliers. At the same time, they wouldn't have become

468
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:07,040
Speaker 2: those outliers without of this some of this foundational indoctrination.

469
00:27:06,880 --> 00:27:11,000
Speaker 1: Or was it something in them that was that something

470
00:27:11,040 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 1: in let's say, Ruby, how not? I don't almost, I

471
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,720
Speaker 1: can't imagine. I think it's a very teeny tiny percentage.

472
00:27:18,760 --> 00:27:22,280
Speaker 1: I hope of mothers capable of that. I'm not saying

473
00:27:22,320 --> 00:27:25,479
Speaker 1: they don't exist. They obviously do. But what was it

474
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:27,720
Speaker 1: in her? Do you think it was just the Mormon

475
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:31,399
Speaker 1: indoctrination or trying to please Jody or was there something

476
00:27:31,400 --> 00:27:34,000
Speaker 1: in her that was getting off on torturing these poor

477
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: children and Jody as well, like the violence of it all,

478
00:27:38,080 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 1: even with everything that they had been taught. You know,

479
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 1: how did that become okay? How does a mother get

480
00:27:45,440 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 1: to that point? What was it inside of her that

481
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:53,480
Speaker 1: made that okay? Or didn't you know, didn't stop her? Well?

482
00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,960
Speaker 2: I do think that all of us have a capacity

483
00:27:58,119 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 2: for good and all of us have the capacity for evil.

484
00:28:02,280 --> 00:28:04,960
Speaker 2: And I don't think in the moment if you would

485
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,280
Speaker 2: have asked her are you being evil? I think she

486
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,640
Speaker 2: would have had some type of And it's so interesting

487
00:28:09,680 --> 00:28:14,040
Speaker 2: that they talk about distortion so much, because yeah, right, wow,

488
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:18,040
Speaker 2: are you all having some disdaining right right, It is

489
00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:20,680
Speaker 2: distorted thinking and you kind of have it make sense.

490
00:28:20,720 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 2: This is psychologically, like we know through groupthink studies, the

491
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,320
Speaker 2: Stanford study with the people who were incarcerated, you know,

492
00:28:27,359 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 2: the students, they turned on each other within days. So

493
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,719
Speaker 2: we know that we as humans have capacity for evil

494
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,960
Speaker 2: if we sure justified somehow.

495
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:37,600
Speaker 1: But do you think that it was that that they

496
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:41,560
Speaker 1: felt justified or that they were again like they have

497
00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:45,160
Speaker 1: that met like they were almost enjoying it. Because I

498
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:49,080
Speaker 1: remember before we delved in in terms of the doc,

499
00:28:49,560 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: I remember watching Ruby sitting in front of her little

500
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: girl and wanted to cut off the head of the

501
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,520
Speaker 1: stuffed animal. Right she was She had already had this

502
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:04,720
Speaker 1: repation for you know, hard parenting, and that was a

503
00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 1: turn off for me just even watching it. But there's

504
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 1: this again. I don't know what word to use help me, Tatasha,

505
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:14,800
Speaker 1: but this ability for a mother to do that feels

506
00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: to me like there's something wrong in there, out above

507
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 1: and beyond what her religion has taught her to be

508
00:29:21,040 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: able to stomach hurting your children feels like it had

509
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:26,520
Speaker 1: to come from also. I don't know if it was

510
00:29:26,560 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 1: her upbringing or you know, something else. Do you think

511
00:29:31,320 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 1: it's something else.

512
00:29:31,960 --> 00:29:34,440
Speaker 2: Do you think it's I think that a lot of

513
00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,160
Speaker 2: us can find pleasure when we feel justified, when we

514
00:29:38,200 --> 00:29:43,280
Speaker 2: feel just scary scary, feel pleasure because we think we're

515
00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:43,960
Speaker 2: in the right.

516
00:29:44,160 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 1: Like the devil. Did she think the devil was in them?

517
00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:47,600
Speaker 1: You think, oh, yeah.

518
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,560
Speaker 2: She basically would say those things, right, Yeah, I know

519
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:54,840
Speaker 2: she would. And so's when she's threatening her children. And

520
00:29:54,880 --> 00:29:56,920
Speaker 2: this is giving her a lot of credit, which I

521
00:29:56,960 --> 00:29:59,400
Speaker 2: don't really want to do either, because I think they

522
00:29:59,480 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: absolutely to be held responsible regardless of the indoctrination, and

523
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:06,440
Speaker 2: doctrination does not give you an excuse to be evil, right,

524
00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:10,160
Speaker 2: and yes, accountable for those us. But yes, I do

525
00:30:10,280 --> 00:30:14,360
Speaker 2: think that when you have this mindset that what really matters,

526
00:30:14,600 --> 00:30:17,719
Speaker 2: what really matters, Jennifer, is that we all make it

527
00:30:17,800 --> 00:30:21,520
Speaker 2: to the celestial Kingdom or heaven or whatever. That thing

528
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 2: that's really that's where the most of our existence is

529
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 2: going to be is in the afterlife. You can justify

530
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,680
Speaker 2: a lot in the short amount of mortal life to

531
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 2: make sure you get there, right, And I mean, if

532
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:39,600
Speaker 2: we're going to get really kind of dark, I mean

533
00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 2: I've known of people like, for example, in the Mormon Church,

534
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 2: we have this doctrine about the age of accountability. It's

535
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,760
Speaker 2: an eight eight years old. At eight years old, you

536
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,280
Speaker 2: become accountable for your actions. Before that, you're seen as innocent.

537
00:30:52,880 --> 00:30:55,280
Speaker 2: And there are stories again outliers and the Mormon Church

538
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:57,640
Speaker 2: would never say you should do this, but there are

539
00:30:57,720 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 2: people who will kill their children and kill themselves when

540
00:31:01,120 --> 00:31:03,959
Speaker 2: their children are coming to that age of eight because

541
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,960
Speaker 2: they're like, well, I would rather just be done with

542
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,720
Speaker 2: this life now and save my innocent child as they

543
00:31:10,800 --> 00:31:14,080
Speaker 2: are and let them get to Heaven before they turn

544
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,040
Speaker 2: this age of accountability, so that then we made it

545
00:31:18,080 --> 00:31:21,240
Speaker 2: in the real in the real existence that really matters.

546
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's yeah.

547
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 2: When you think of that, psychologically, you can just buy

548
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 2: all kinds of horrific things. And the Bible and of

549
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:33,360
Speaker 2: itself has the whole you know, spare the rod, spoil

550
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,560
Speaker 2: the child scripture, and that was very much in my

551
00:31:36,640 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 2: evangelical world with all my evangelical neighbors. That was talked

552
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:43,560
Speaker 2: about a lot. And that's how you know, beatings are

553
00:31:43,600 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 2: justified spankings. And then of course the psychological abuse right

554
00:31:48,400 --> 00:31:50,920
Speaker 2: of like you're going to go to hell. I mean,

555
00:31:50,960 --> 00:31:52,720
Speaker 2: this is where I'd like for people to pause for

556
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:56,200
Speaker 2: a minute. Is it psychologically healthy? And many of us

557
00:31:56,320 --> 00:31:58,920
Speaker 2: do this, many of us who are like just shocked

558
00:31:58,960 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 2: that they would tie these kids up. But many of

559
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:06,440
Speaker 2: us are teaching our young, impressionable children that they have

560
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 2: two voyeurs that are constantly watching them, God and Satan.

561
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,560
Speaker 2: We're just teaching them that as a reocity and for

562
00:32:16,640 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 2: a little brain that already starts you in a space

563
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 2: where you have no privacy because God can always know

564
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:26,120
Speaker 2: what you're thinking. Satan is always trying to tempt you

565
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:30,840
Speaker 2: horrible things. So you're walking the world already feeling like

566
00:32:30,880 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 2: you're completely all, always exposed. Wow, that's psychologically abusive.

567
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: Yes, it's most certainly.

568
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:42,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, you a little child. But would we see ourselves

569
00:32:42,240 --> 00:32:45,479
Speaker 2: as psychologically abusive? No one. Does it give us pleasure

570
00:32:45,520 --> 00:32:48,400
Speaker 2: to teach our children about God and Jesus and Satan

571
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,800
Speaker 2: on all those things, Yes, because we think we're doing

572
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 2: something for their best behalf. Well.

573
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:58,400
Speaker 1: I remember Jodie saying when she was being brought to

574
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:02,320
Speaker 1: prison that she thought that it was still like a journey,

575
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:03,600
Speaker 1: God's journey, right.

576
00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 2: It was part of their trials. This is when they're

577
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:09,520
Speaker 2: held accountable, when they're really forced to look at what

578
00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:13,400
Speaker 2: they're doing, and they can't shift gears because you know,

579
00:33:13,440 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 2: it's very hard to change your mind about things, very

580
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:17,560
Speaker 2: very challenging to do them.

581
00:33:17,800 --> 00:33:20,640
Speaker 1: Do you think she has now now that she's I

582
00:33:20,760 --> 00:33:22,760
Speaker 1: doubt know, I really doubt it.

583
00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,160
Speaker 2: I think that they feel very justified. This is part

584
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,520
Speaker 2: of their trial. People don't really understand. This is also

585
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,000
Speaker 2: a very common theme in religion and religious stories is

586
00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:35,920
Speaker 2: the martyr, the person who's you know, everybody makes fun

587
00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:39,280
Speaker 2: of because what they're saying, which is all those kind

588
00:33:39,280 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 2: of supernatural things, people are treating them like they're crazy, right,

589
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:46,800
Speaker 2: and all the prophets that are in the Bible were

590
00:33:46,800 --> 00:33:50,240
Speaker 2: treated kind of like they were crazy by the wider population.

591
00:33:50,520 --> 00:33:54,400
Speaker 2: God Religio people are like, well see they were really

592
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:58,040
Speaker 2: they were martyrs and nobody understood them. And God's ways

593
00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 2: are not the world's ways, and so you can justify.

594
00:34:01,200 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 1: But Natasha, we watch this. I watched this, and I

595
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:11,239
Speaker 1: see it makes complete sense. Everything you're saying. I get.

596
00:34:11,360 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 1: It's just that piece of it that you know, we

597
00:34:14,800 --> 00:34:18,200
Speaker 1: all come from, let's say, being having some shame around sexuality.

598
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,719
Speaker 1: I've been through lots of bad things, like most of

599
00:34:21,840 --> 00:34:24,479
Speaker 1: us have. I'm fifty seven years old, but I still

600
00:34:24,520 --> 00:34:31,760
Speaker 1: look at this and it feels like was she? It

601
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,000
Speaker 1: make more sense to me if, like was Jody abused

602
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: as a child? Was Ruby? Because I know that cycle

603
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:40,239
Speaker 1: can repeat itself. I get that they were coming from

604
00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 1: a place where they really believed in what they were

605
00:34:42,760 --> 00:34:44,960
Speaker 1: doing right. And when you say that they want to

606
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 1: get accepted into eternity and heaven or whatever that looks

607
00:34:50,239 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 1: like in the Mormon religion, I understand that. But please

608
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 1: tell me that most Mormons, even being taught that there

609
00:34:58,640 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 1: was something different about Jody and something different about Ruby.

610
00:35:02,080 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 2: Yes, I would say that they are extreme cases. They

611
00:35:05,640 --> 00:35:08,920
Speaker 2: are the extreme. And I guess what I'm trying to

612
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 2: get across is well, we can all ooh in awe

613
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,120
Speaker 2: about the excess and be like, oh my gosh, none

614
00:35:14,160 --> 00:35:16,760
Speaker 2: of us would never do that. That's so horrific, because

615
00:35:16,800 --> 00:35:21,120
Speaker 2: now it's comfortable to other them and not to see

616
00:35:21,120 --> 00:35:23,759
Speaker 2: ourselves in them. Yes, we're so horrible. And what I'm

617
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:26,759
Speaker 2: trying to invite everybody to do is actually, let's not

618
00:35:26,920 --> 00:35:29,120
Speaker 2: hold them so separate, because when you do that, you

619
00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:32,440
Speaker 2: have more of a chance of becoming them. So we

620
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:38,200
Speaker 2: actually really this as like there it makes sense, and

621
00:35:38,280 --> 00:35:42,040
Speaker 2: if we're not careful, any of us, right, vulnerable to

622
00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:46,320
Speaker 2: become an extreme example, right, actually of an indoctrinated type

623
00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 2: of space where there isn't a lot of critical thinking

624
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 2: that's right, right, a lot of conformity that's encouraged. It's

625
00:35:55,080 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 2: a lot of leaders.

626
00:35:56,480 --> 00:35:59,440
Speaker 1: And by the way, I'm sorry, but also a lot

627
00:35:59,440 --> 00:35:59,920
Speaker 1: of money.

628
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,520
Speaker 2: And a lot of money. And I don't think that

629
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,719
Speaker 2: most people would turn into the Rubies and JODI's, but

630
00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:10,719
Speaker 2: I do think what is happening so much that I

631
00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,480
Speaker 2: would say it's happening ridiculously so much is that people

632
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:19,000
Speaker 2: are turning into the Ethans. And because they are, they're

633
00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 2: trying to do what's right. They've got these people that

634
00:36:21,800 --> 00:36:24,680
Speaker 2: seem to have authority, that seem to have keys that

635
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 2: are backed by the church.

636
00:36:26,880 --> 00:36:27,120
Speaker 1: Right.

637
00:36:27,239 --> 00:36:29,799
Speaker 2: I mean, like, when I'm excommunicated, do you think a

638
00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:33,000
Speaker 2: bishop is going to refer to me? They're going to

639
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:35,040
Speaker 2: look me up and be like, oh, she's not She

640
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:39,279
Speaker 2: wouldn't be a good influence on our church, of course, right, Hildebrand. Oh, yeah,

641
00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:42,440
Speaker 2: she thinks pornography is really bad, and she's she's going

642
00:36:42,480 --> 00:36:44,960
Speaker 2: to take an addiction model approach, and she's going to

643
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:48,520
Speaker 2: you know, take an approach ate totally you know, meets

644
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 2: right kind of our belief system. So yes, and she was.

645
00:36:52,800 --> 00:36:56,760
Speaker 2: This is where her success started was by with tons

646
00:36:56,840 --> 00:37:00,840
Speaker 2: of referrals from the Mormon Church to her instead of

647
00:37:00,840 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 2: to practitioners who are either not LDS or who are

648
00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:07,719
Speaker 2: LDS progressive and are not falling for these you know,

649
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:13,879
Speaker 2: quack quack alternative types of you know, sources that are

650
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:15,240
Speaker 2: not even evidence based.

651
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: I remember when Jodi was arrested and she was being

652
00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:34,799
Speaker 1: taken to jail, and she said, don't let the kids

653
00:37:34,800 --> 00:37:37,680
Speaker 1: around other kids. Don't let these kids around other kids.

654
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:42,040
Speaker 1: And I thought that was one moment where I thought, Wow,

655
00:37:42,080 --> 00:37:44,560
Speaker 1: she really believes this shit, like she believes that these

656
00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:49,719
Speaker 1: children are evil and so right. That was because for me,

657
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:53,200
Speaker 1: that was the disconnect. And I agree with you. I

658
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 1: see how what you're saying and that people, if they

659
00:37:56,160 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: are they're evil, they're evil. You said that your other them.

660
00:38:00,360 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 1: It feels like it's far away and it can happen.

661
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,440
Speaker 1: It can have maybe to any of us, but I

662
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:10,239
Speaker 1: hope not. But but that sort of like surprised me,

663
00:38:10,280 --> 00:38:12,399
Speaker 1: and that she really fucking believes that what she's doing

664
00:38:12,480 --> 00:38:16,200
Speaker 1: is right now this crazy person, and it was hard.

665
00:38:16,200 --> 00:38:19,040
Speaker 1: That's hard. That's a hard pill to swallow. Like I

666
00:38:19,080 --> 00:38:22,040
Speaker 1: hate the idea that they're in jail thinking that they're noble,

667
00:38:22,680 --> 00:38:26,040
Speaker 1: Like I really hope that they are in jail looking

668
00:38:26,040 --> 00:38:29,640
Speaker 1: at what they did with deep and utter regret and remorse.

669
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: Do you think that they are?

670
00:38:31,120 --> 00:38:33,920
Speaker 2: I from what I can tell, I mean, you know,

671
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,600
Speaker 2: I have not interviewed these people. I can't say anything

672
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:42,200
Speaker 2: with great you know, I guess confidence. But from what

673
00:38:42,320 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 2: I saw in the post interviews, it seemed like maybe

674
00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,160
Speaker 2: there was more hope of that for Ruby, but it

675
00:38:48,160 --> 00:38:54,040
Speaker 2: didn't really like Jody was moving in that direction. Wow,

676
00:38:54,160 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 2: you can see the history there, right. I mean, they

677
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:59,719
Speaker 2: interview her niece that goes to live with her, because right,

678
00:39:00,160 --> 00:39:02,399
Speaker 2: because she probably mastered right, I forget what she did.

679
00:39:02,400 --> 00:39:06,160
Speaker 2: She didn't strong her little Mormon community, which again it

680
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 2: doesn't take much. You know, smoke one joint, or you

681
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 2: get caught looking at porn, or you have a boyfriend

682
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:15,320
Speaker 2: that you know you're heavy petting with, and all of

683
00:39:15,360 --> 00:39:17,920
Speaker 2: a sudden, the whole community is up in arms that

684
00:39:18,160 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 2: we're about to lose this child to Satan or something.

685
00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 2: And so they her over to Jodie to help raise

686
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:28,200
Speaker 2: her right, extremely abusive. And this is another problem that

687
00:39:28,239 --> 00:39:32,000
Speaker 2: is systemic, systemic that I don't want us to look

688
00:39:32,040 --> 00:39:36,480
Speaker 2: away by just saying, oh, these extreme examples, we protect

689
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:41,080
Speaker 2: adults over children in our country one percent, including this

690
00:39:41,120 --> 00:39:45,520
Speaker 2: whole religious freedom thing. Right, we allow parents to teach

691
00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:50,320
Speaker 2: and to be quite cruel in their parenting styles because

692
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:54,040
Speaker 2: of religious freedom. So she went forward, Right, this niece

693
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:59,200
Speaker 2: came forward and reported her community did not believe. Yes, right,

694
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:01,360
Speaker 2: this is a and this is what we do to children.

695
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 2: Oh you're not you're not smart enough, you're not wise enough,

696
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,879
Speaker 2: You're you're just causing. You just want attention, and we

697
00:40:08,960 --> 00:40:13,239
Speaker 2: ignore big things that adults are doing to children, all

698
00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 2: under the guise of religious freedom.

699
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 1: That's it. Well, tell me this, how how do how

700
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: do these kids get to the place where her niece

701
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:24,600
Speaker 1: was so in other words, you know, now this has

702
00:40:24,600 --> 00:40:26,600
Speaker 1: happened to him, this horror show. They've grown up in

703
00:40:26,600 --> 00:40:29,160
Speaker 1: this this horror show for lack of a better term,

704
00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:32,560
Speaker 1: And now how do they all How hard is it

705
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:33,920
Speaker 1: for you? And I don't know if you see children

706
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:37,320
Speaker 1: as well or young adults to get to a place

707
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 1: like Jody's niece and she's free. Now it sounds like

708
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,600
Speaker 1: I hope, so I hope that she feels fulfilled and

709
00:40:43,600 --> 00:40:46,920
Speaker 1: happy and healthy. But how do the kids get past this?

710
00:40:47,280 --> 00:40:49,200
Speaker 2: The reality is that most kids are not going to

711
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 2: do what the niece did, right. The reality is the

712
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:54,560
Speaker 2: kids staying the systems they're raised in, and then they

713
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,240
Speaker 2: become the next parents in that system for the next

714
00:40:57,680 --> 00:41:01,160
Speaker 2: Yeah kids. I mean, that's the reality of most communities.

715
00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:03,719
Speaker 2: And it doesn't even have to be religious community, any community,

716
00:41:04,280 --> 00:41:08,399
Speaker 2: political communities. You know, if you're raised by Democrats, you're

717
00:41:08,400 --> 00:41:10,400
Speaker 2: probably gonna be a Democrat. If you're raised by Republicans,

718
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,680
Speaker 2: you're probably going to be a Republican. Some people shift

719
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 2: and make those changes, but the majority don't, and so

720
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 2: these kids usually turn into the next the next parents

721
00:41:21,600 --> 00:41:24,760
Speaker 2: who raise their kids in this religious community as well.

722
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:27,040
Speaker 1: You have an uphill battle, my friend.

723
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:27,680
Speaker 2: You choose.

724
00:41:28,200 --> 00:41:31,759
Speaker 1: Oh, I don't know how you how do you get

725
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:36,240
Speaker 1: these these people that have been doctrinated, indoctrinated to get

726
00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:39,000
Speaker 1: what is the word extoctrinated? I don't even know how

727
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:42,320
Speaker 1: how do you get these messages out of their heads,

728
00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:43,720
Speaker 1: especially to kids.

729
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:48,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, very challenging. Yeah, my favorite work is when they

730
00:41:48,680 --> 00:41:50,719
Speaker 2: already kind of started that and then they come in

731
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:54,280
Speaker 2: for help. Right in religious trauma work, we're doing sexual

732
00:41:54,280 --> 00:41:56,359
Speaker 2: shame work, We're doing you know, all kinds of things

733
00:41:56,400 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 2: because they're already in that space of wanting to deconstruct.

734
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:03,320
Speaker 2: But when I'm working with believers who you know, I

735
00:42:03,800 --> 00:42:06,319
Speaker 2: also want to respect their values and their beliefs, and

736
00:42:07,120 --> 00:42:11,080
Speaker 2: you know, I'm not there to destroy their their religious

737
00:42:11,160 --> 00:42:13,880
Speaker 2: belief system. I'm there to help them with their with

738
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:17,479
Speaker 2: their value, with what their goals are. At the same time,

739
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,360
Speaker 2: if they want sexual health, if that's part of their goals,

740
00:42:20,360 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 2: but they're so limited in the tools that I can

741
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:26,919
Speaker 2: offer them because that goes against their values their religion. Right,

742
00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:28,560
Speaker 2: It's like hitting a wall.

743
00:42:28,680 --> 00:42:30,640
Speaker 1: But Natasha, what do you do when you know that

744
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,480
Speaker 1: it's crossed over, Let's say, for a parent into an

745
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,919
Speaker 1: abusive situation. I don't know how many parents go you

746
00:42:38,200 --> 00:42:41,399
Speaker 1: deal with that, you know, in terms of the Mormon Church,

747
00:42:41,480 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: but in any what do you do when you find

748
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,719
Speaker 1: out that the parents are, you know, abusing their kids.

749
00:42:46,760 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 1: And I would think that would come out during therapy

750
00:42:49,640 --> 00:42:50,120
Speaker 1: or maybe not.

751
00:42:50,920 --> 00:42:55,879
Speaker 2: People are pretty protective, including kids. Kids understand that if

752
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,239
Speaker 2: they say certain things, it may be the end of

753
00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:00,480
Speaker 2: their family unit as they know it. And of course

754
00:43:00,480 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 2: I'm a mandated reporter, and so sexual abuse are very

755
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:06,719
Speaker 2: you have to report and I have to report, yeah,

756
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:13,120
Speaker 2: of course, and psychological abuse is that's reportable and not

757
00:43:13,200 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 2: to really do anything about it. And I think if

758
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:17,239
Speaker 2: we went down that road, you know, we already have

759
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:20,520
Speaker 2: a foster care system that is not run well and

760
00:43:20,600 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 2: that is you know, busting at the seams, and so

761
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:27,920
Speaker 2: psychological abuse will remain I think something that we just

762
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:30,840
Speaker 2: all have to kind of deal with. So then my

763
00:43:30,960 --> 00:43:36,759
Speaker 2: options are to try to, you know, carefully, non judgmentally,

764
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 2: question and hopefully get some self awareness going of how

765
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:45,080
Speaker 2: some of these tactics may be impacting their children in

766
00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:46,239
Speaker 2: ways they don't realize.

767
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:49,640
Speaker 1: Do you think you could have helped someone like Ruby

768
00:43:49,719 --> 00:43:51,680
Speaker 1: before it got to the point that it did. Do

769
00:43:51,680 --> 00:43:54,200
Speaker 1: you think therapy? I won't use, let's not, but do

770
00:43:54,239 --> 00:43:57,879
Speaker 1: you think that there was help out there? Could Could

771
00:43:57,920 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 1: it have gone differently if she had been in therapy

772
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:04,560
Speaker 1: like with someone like you? I mean obviously she never was.

773
00:44:04,600 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 1: But can you help those people that are about to

774
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:08,879
Speaker 1: become extreme? Well?

775
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:10,279
Speaker 2: I think so.

776
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:12,319
Speaker 1: I guess you have to believe that that's this is

777
00:44:12,320 --> 00:44:14,120
Speaker 1: what you do, yes, I think.

778
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:18,680
Speaker 2: So the problem is that it's hard for somebody like

779
00:44:18,800 --> 00:44:22,240
Speaker 2: Ruby to have access to somebody like me because she's

780
00:44:22,400 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 2: already It's like any religion, people are going to vary widely.

781
00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:29,520
Speaker 2: You're going to have really orthodox people in the same

782
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,280
Speaker 2: religion as you have very progressive people in the same religion.

783
00:44:32,360 --> 00:44:32,520
Speaker 1: Right.

784
00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:34,600
Speaker 2: Seems to me like she was a bit more on

785
00:44:34,640 --> 00:44:38,120
Speaker 2: the orthodox side of yes, yes, and you've even raised

786
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,640
Speaker 2: more orthodox So that's all right a challenge and a

787
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,680
Speaker 2: lot of these churches, I mean, even the Mormon Church

788
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:46,160
Speaker 2: has a history of saying, you know, the field of

789
00:44:46,160 --> 00:44:49,759
Speaker 2: psychiatry is like an enemy to us. I mean that

790
00:44:49,840 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 2: was a long time ago that they were saying things

791
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,120
Speaker 2: like that, like in the nineteen fifties or sixties. We

792
00:44:54,200 --> 00:44:57,720
Speaker 2: do have history, and I see that a lot in Christianity,

793
00:44:57,840 --> 00:45:01,360
Speaker 2: especially in the more conservative religion. It's like the pastors

794
00:45:01,400 --> 00:45:05,319
Speaker 2: will actually make you doubt mental health practices, you know,

795
00:45:05,400 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 2: they'll down blow yeah, or you just need to pray her,

796
00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:10,839
Speaker 2: you just need to be more righteous, you just need

797
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:14,200
Speaker 2: to get good of God, and I save you from depression,

798
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 2: you know, right, And when that that's not how depression.

799
00:45:17,560 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 1: Works right, right, Yeah.

800
00:45:19,880 --> 00:45:22,239
Speaker 2: People are left to think, well, it's still me. It's

801
00:45:22,280 --> 00:45:25,000
Speaker 2: never the church is wrong. I must not be doing

802
00:45:25,040 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 2: something right right right, And it's a self blame right

803
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,319
Speaker 2: and looking for more and more people. And then there's

804
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:33,120
Speaker 2: that guest bias. So you're going to go to a

805
00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 2: religious therapist who shares your own views and beliefs, and

806
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,200
Speaker 2: they may not be, you know, watching their own biases

807
00:45:39,239 --> 00:45:43,400
Speaker 2: and giving up kind of non evidence based, non effective treatment.

808
00:45:43,840 --> 00:45:46,720
Speaker 2: So if she would have earlier on come to somebody

809
00:45:46,800 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 2: like me that was more.

810
00:45:48,960 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 1: You know, just evidence you would have had it, she

811
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,759
Speaker 1: maybe would have had a chance. Sure, yeah, I think so.

812
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 1: I hope I hope that that's who more people do

813
00:45:57,080 --> 00:45:59,960
Speaker 1: come to you. So, Natasha, I cannot thank you enough

814
00:46:00,040 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: for joining us. You guys, you have to see this

815
00:46:02,840 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 1: documentary and you are you were the one easy part

816
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:07,840
Speaker 1: to watch in it, because it's very hard to watch,

817
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 1: very sick, it's very dark. Yes, they are. Your community

818
00:46:12,480 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: is lucky to have you so and like.

819
00:46:15,520 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 2: Me, you know, I yes, I work with amazing colleagues.

820
00:46:18,520 --> 00:46:21,960
Speaker 2: I run a group practice inmentry counseling. We have amazing

821
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 2: people able to work in that intersection yes, religious trauma,

822
00:46:26,239 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 2: but also holding space for people's religious beliefs if that's

823
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:33,280
Speaker 2: what matters to them. Right, And hopefully churches can become

824
00:46:33,360 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 2: more and more trauma informed.

825
00:46:35,520 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 1: Yes, and yes to do the work.

826
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:41,879
Speaker 2: To educate their you know, their parishioners on what good

827
00:46:41,920 --> 00:46:45,239
Speaker 2: mental health looks like and good mental health treatment and

828
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:47,640
Speaker 2: good sexual health. So we've got a long way to

829
00:46:47,680 --> 00:46:48,239
Speaker 2: go in our truth.

830
00:46:48,440 --> 00:46:52,120
Speaker 1: Yes, amen, Natasha, thank you so much for joining us.

831
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:55,800
Speaker 1: Really appreciate you. Please come back. Oh I will have

832
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:57,719
Speaker 1: you back. Bye. Thank you.