1 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:05,240 Speaker 1: This is Alec Baldwin, and you're listening to Here's the 2 00:00:05,320 --> 00:00:12,160 Speaker 1: Thing from iHeart Radio. Making documentary films about fascinating people 3 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:15,280 Speaker 1: and diving deep into their lives and work. That is 4 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:19,400 Speaker 1: the occupation of my guest today, Emmy and Grammy nominated writer, 5 00:00:19,800 --> 00:00:25,440 Speaker 1: producer and director John Shinfeld. He's made nearly fifty documentaries 6 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:28,639 Speaker 1: that tell the story behind some of the most famous 7 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:33,000 Speaker 1: names and events in American history, from John Lennon and 8 00:00:33,040 --> 00:00:37,440 Speaker 1: Bob Hope to the Chicago Cubs and Watergate. His most 9 00:00:37,520 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: recent film is Mash, The Comedy That Changed Television, about 10 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: the iconic sitcom. Last year, he released the documentary What 11 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:49,920 Speaker 1: the Hell Happened to Blood, Sweat and Tears, answering the 12 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,320 Speaker 1: question surrounding the political turmoil that engulfed the popular rock 13 00:00:54,400 --> 00:00:59,160 Speaker 1: band in the nineteen seventies. Sinfeld often goes behind the 14 00:00:59,200 --> 00:01:03,160 Speaker 1: curtain of the musical world. He recently told the behind 15 00:01:03,200 --> 00:01:07,000 Speaker 1: the scenes story of Elvis Presley's famous Christmas special in 16 00:01:07,080 --> 00:01:10,479 Speaker 1: the film Reinventing Elvis the sixty eight Comeback. 17 00:01:11,760 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 2: Basically, by nineteen sixty eight, Elvis had become irrelevant. He'd 18 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 2: been replaced in the public consciousness for the most part 19 00:01:18,600 --> 00:01:21,280 Speaker 2: by the Beatles, the Stones, the British Invasion, all of that. 20 00:01:22,160 --> 00:01:26,280 Speaker 2: He was doing these crappy little movies and as the 21 00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:30,280 Speaker 2: sixties progressed, they were selling fewer tickets, he was not 22 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:33,160 Speaker 2: selling as many records, and by sixty eight he didn't 23 00:01:33,200 --> 00:01:37,520 Speaker 2: quite know which direction to go, and his manager came 24 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,960 Speaker 2: up with this notion of let's do a Christmas special 25 00:01:41,200 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 2: for NBC, and his idea was dress him up like 26 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 2: Perry Como in a sweater and sing twenty Christmas songs 27 00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:52,800 Speaker 2: and get off the stage. And NBC hired this young 28 00:01:52,960 --> 00:01:57,440 Speaker 2: hotshot producer director named Steve Binder, and Steve said, no, no, no, no, no, no. 29 00:01:58,120 --> 00:02:00,800 Speaker 2: What we want you to do is what made you Elvis, 30 00:02:01,720 --> 00:02:05,840 Speaker 2: And so they constructed this show in spite of Tom 31 00:02:05,880 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 2: Parker that really showcased Elvis's talents and you can see 32 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,000 Speaker 2: it on the screen in this special. He is a 33 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 2: superbly talented guy, very charismatic, gorgeous for men and women. 34 00:02:18,720 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 35 00:02:19,840 --> 00:02:22,800 Speaker 2: And the show turned out to be the highest rated 36 00:02:22,800 --> 00:02:26,120 Speaker 2: special of nineteen sixty eight and a jump started his career. 37 00:02:26,400 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 2: Las Vegas came calling, and that really set up the 38 00:02:29,240 --> 00:02:30,240 Speaker 2: third act of his life. 39 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 1: You see that a film you made, and early on 40 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:36,880 Speaker 1: the guy saying about the concert, he tells a story 41 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:39,800 Speaker 1: about him not wanting to come out, and then he 42 00:02:39,880 --> 00:02:43,200 Speaker 1: walks out there and everything's in position, and he walks 43 00:02:43,200 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: out there in that black outfit, and like everything about 44 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:50,000 Speaker 1: him is like, oh my god, it's Elvis, the Elvis 45 00:02:50,040 --> 00:02:53,160 Speaker 1: I loved. Here's the Elvis I love. Whereas I mean 46 00:02:53,240 --> 00:02:56,480 Speaker 1: that period I'd forgotten the years. That period was the 47 00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:00,000 Speaker 1: bad movie Elvis period up to sixty eight of the Comeback, 48 00:03:00,440 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: and I am obsessed. I own that concert. But when 49 00:03:03,520 --> 00:03:06,720 Speaker 1: you do a film like that, and I'm assuming it's 50 00:03:06,760 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 1: extraordinarily difficult and therefore maybe tempting to pass on a 51 00:03:11,080 --> 00:03:13,280 Speaker 1: film where there's not a lot of extant footage about 52 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:16,560 Speaker 1: the person. There's a mountains of footage of Delvis, you know. 53 00:03:17,040 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 1: And when you do a film like that, or any 54 00:03:18,919 --> 00:03:22,799 Speaker 1: of your films, how does it begin for you? Where 55 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:23,480 Speaker 1: do you start? 56 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:25,920 Speaker 2: For me, it's always what's the story? 57 00:03:26,680 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: You know. 58 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:31,000 Speaker 2: I'm not a journalist, I'm not an academic. I came 59 00:03:31,000 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 2: out of the scripted world. I was a studio executive 60 00:03:34,320 --> 00:03:38,160 Speaker 2: for a while and then became a writer of pilot 61 00:03:38,160 --> 00:03:40,720 Speaker 2: shows and things like that, so I come out of 62 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 2: a very traditional three actromatic structure. So I'm fascinated by 63 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:46,800 Speaker 2: what's the story. Is there an interesting story here? Is 64 00:03:46,840 --> 00:03:50,520 Speaker 2: it compelling? Is there enough depth to it that would 65 00:03:50,560 --> 00:03:53,760 Speaker 2: warrant being a feature documentary? So that's the first thing. 66 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:58,240 Speaker 2: Second question always is is there enough audio visual material 67 00:03:58,320 --> 00:04:00,720 Speaker 2: with which to tell the story? Some times there is 68 00:04:00,760 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 2: and sometimes there isn't. I did a film a few 69 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 2: years ago called Chasing Train about the jazz icon John Coltrane, 70 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:12,000 Speaker 2: and there's very little footage on him, but we managed 71 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:14,360 Speaker 2: to find a way to tell the story. Same with Blood, 72 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:16,560 Speaker 2: Sweat and Tears, which we can get into later, and 73 00:04:16,640 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 2: other times I did one on John Lennon, and he 74 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:22,800 Speaker 2: was perhaps the most photographed and filmed man of the 75 00:04:22,800 --> 00:04:25,400 Speaker 2: twentieth century, and there was plenty of film for us 76 00:04:25,440 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 2: to you. So if there really was nothing, then I 77 00:04:28,600 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 2: get very frustrated and disappointed that I'm not going to 78 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:32,839 Speaker 2: be able to tell that story and I have to 79 00:04:32,880 --> 00:04:36,120 Speaker 2: move on to something else. But largely it's what's the story? 80 00:04:36,200 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 2: And does it nurture my soul? Does it inspire me, 81 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,040 Speaker 2: does it intrigue me? Does it make me laugh? If 82 00:04:42,080 --> 00:04:44,240 Speaker 2: I have that kind of a response to something. Then 83 00:04:44,320 --> 00:04:46,560 Speaker 2: I know this is a project I want to take on. 84 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 1: Well, I always find like I'll be on YouTube. Let's 85 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:53,159 Speaker 1: say Oscar Peterson is in a concert in Copenhagen, and 86 00:04:53,200 --> 00:04:55,719 Speaker 1: I'll go, well, you got a clip of this, and 87 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,120 Speaker 1: you're showing a clip of this. What's the clip from? 88 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: How can I go buy the concert that Oscar Peterson 89 00:05:01,440 --> 00:05:04,200 Speaker 1: is in? They'll be there and there are numerous examples. 90 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 1: There are abundant examples of shows like that or where 91 00:05:08,240 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: there's a clip and I'll go, my god, I want 92 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 1: to see Miles Davis said, Carnie, you know whatever it is, 93 00:05:13,200 --> 00:05:16,200 Speaker 1: And they don't offer you that information on the thing. 94 00:05:16,240 --> 00:05:20,080 Speaker 1: And I'm such a junkie for documentaries of any kind. 95 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: One of the things I love most about my job 96 00:05:22,320 --> 00:05:25,920 Speaker 2: is the detective work of trying to track down this 97 00:05:26,000 --> 00:05:30,239 Speaker 2: audio visual material. And we cast a very wide net 98 00:05:30,400 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 2: around the world to find the most rare, the most unusual, 99 00:05:33,760 --> 00:05:36,560 Speaker 2: or the most pertinent material to help tell our story. 100 00:05:36,920 --> 00:05:40,600 Speaker 2: And you find things sometimes under people's beds, in their closets, 101 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,600 Speaker 2: in some archive in Eastern Europe, you know wherever, it 102 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:45,600 Speaker 2: might be, in the trunk of their car, trunk of 103 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: their cars out there. You just never know sometimes when 104 00:05:48,000 --> 00:05:50,640 Speaker 2: you're going to find something. I'll share a story nowt 105 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:54,279 Speaker 2: about Bloodswoot and Tears. I had lunch with Bobby Colombie, 106 00:05:54,320 --> 00:05:56,680 Speaker 2: who is the co founder and the band leader of 107 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,520 Speaker 2: Bloodwitton Tears, and he had seen my Coltrane film and 108 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:00,839 Speaker 2: he said, so, I want to take you to lunch 109 00:06:00,839 --> 00:06:03,400 Speaker 2: and tell you a story. So we sit down for 110 00:06:03,480 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 2: lunch and I literally asked him what the hell happened 111 00:06:07,000 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 2: to Blood Sweat and Tears. Here was you were one 112 00:06:09,560 --> 00:06:12,320 Speaker 2: of the hottest bands going and then you weren't. 113 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: What happened? 114 00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:14,680 Speaker 2: He said, that's the story I'm going to tell you, 115 00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:16,359 Speaker 2: and he starts to tell me this story at lunch. 116 00:06:16,640 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 2: He only knows maybe half of what really happened. We 117 00:06:20,920 --> 00:06:23,440 Speaker 2: dug up a lot of information of what was happening 118 00:06:23,480 --> 00:06:26,039 Speaker 2: behind the scenes. But in the middle of lunch, alec 119 00:06:26,400 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 2: He says to me, so, we were in eastern Europe 120 00:06:29,200 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 2: and this film crew was with us. And wait, wait, wait, wait, 121 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,800 Speaker 2: wait a second, there was a film crew with you. Yeah, yeah, 122 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:36,480 Speaker 2: we took a documentary film crew with us. It's like, well, 123 00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:39,440 Speaker 2: where's that film? He said, I don't know, and that 124 00:06:39,560 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 2: became the treasure hunt on this one. Where is that 125 00:06:41,800 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 2: film now? It was embargoed by the State Department. Correct, 126 00:06:44,800 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 2: that's correct. That's what we learned at the end of 127 00:06:46,560 --> 00:06:49,440 Speaker 2: the day. But what we did learn early on was 128 00:06:49,480 --> 00:06:52,840 Speaker 2: they had shot sixty five hours of material with which 129 00:06:52,880 --> 00:06:56,599 Speaker 2: they intended to make a feature documentary to be distributed 130 00:06:56,600 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 2: in theaters back in nineteen seventy seventy one, and they 131 00:07:01,000 --> 00:07:03,279 Speaker 2: edited together a two and a half hour version which 132 00:07:03,279 --> 00:07:05,600 Speaker 2: they had to show to the State Department. That screening 133 00:07:05,640 --> 00:07:10,920 Speaker 2: did not go well. Somehow that two hour feature documentary 134 00:07:11,200 --> 00:07:15,040 Speaker 2: was transformed into a one hour for television that never 135 00:07:15,120 --> 00:07:18,480 Speaker 2: got shown. And so we're on the trail of this stuff, 136 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,880 Speaker 2: and we are checking every archive that we can think of. 137 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:26,320 Speaker 2: We also checked every independent storage facility here in Los 138 00:07:26,360 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 2: Angeles where a producer might have stored their material, and nothing, nothing. 139 00:07:30,520 --> 00:07:30,800 Speaker 1: Nothing. 140 00:07:31,600 --> 00:07:34,200 Speaker 2: Finally, one day a woman who runs a vault in 141 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 2: Hollywood who we had contacted some months before, and she said, oh, 142 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 2: we have nothing. It was during COVID and she was 143 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:44,000 Speaker 2: going through some old fashioned loose leaf binders and found 144 00:07:44,040 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 2: a vague reference to blood, sweat and tears. She went 145 00:07:47,360 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 2: into the vault and in a far corner in a 146 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:55,559 Speaker 2: pile of stuff marked for destruction. Was the one hour, 147 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,239 Speaker 2: sixty minute version of this project that never got released 148 00:07:59,320 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 2: on what format? Ye It was on sixty millimeter film 149 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 2: with optical sound on the side. And so in our 150 00:08:05,560 --> 00:08:08,200 Speaker 2: film What the Hell Happened to Bloodswood and Tears, all 151 00:08:08,280 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 2: the footage you see from that tour came from that 152 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:14,240 Speaker 2: one hour version. The sixty five hours of raw material 153 00:08:14,360 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 2: totally disappeared, and we believe the State Department took it 154 00:08:18,200 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 2: back and at some point destroyed it, not for I 155 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 2: think nefarious reasons. I think it was more it was 156 00:08:24,320 --> 00:08:25,480 Speaker 2: taking up a lot of space. 157 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: Nixon boy, he just hated those real rock bands. He 158 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:30,239 Speaker 1: hated that rock and roll music. 159 00:08:30,320 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 2: He was not a rock and roll fan in the least. 160 00:08:33,679 --> 00:08:36,120 Speaker 2: That's what's so interesting about this story is that it's 161 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:38,920 Speaker 2: a rock band and suddenly there are memos about this 162 00:08:39,120 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 2: rock band on Henry Kissinger's desk and Richard Nixon's desk, 163 00:08:42,320 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 2: and they're actually responding to them and dealing with it. 164 00:08:45,280 --> 00:08:48,000 Speaker 2: And I just found that absolutely fascinating. 165 00:08:48,240 --> 00:08:51,160 Speaker 1: But now that we're on that subject, your film is 166 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:54,120 Speaker 1: about what happened to them, meaning they go over there 167 00:08:54,160 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 1: if I'm not mistaken. If I remember in the film 168 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: which I saw just recently, on some typically traditional cultural 169 00:08:59,640 --> 00:09:03,480 Speaker 1: exchange by the State Department, correct, that's right, which had 170 00:09:03,520 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: been mostly a classic arts like dance and ballet and 171 00:09:06,440 --> 00:09:07,640 Speaker 1: symphony and things like that. 172 00:09:07,480 --> 00:09:10,800 Speaker 2: And jazz, so Louis Armstrong, Jessey Gillespie, those sorts of 173 00:09:10,880 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 2: artists had also gone over on these cultural exchange programs. 174 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:17,880 Speaker 2: And then what happened, well thereby hangs the tale. And 175 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:22,440 Speaker 2: what we learned is the State Department came to Blood 176 00:09:22,440 --> 00:09:25,040 Speaker 2: Sweat and Tears and said, we want you to represent 177 00:09:25,080 --> 00:09:28,800 Speaker 2: America and go to these Eastern European countries that we 178 00:09:28,880 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 2: are trying to establish relationships with and perform. And that 179 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 2: seems fairly straightforward, right, but it was never ever that simple. 180 00:09:39,840 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 2: What we learned is the lead singer for Blood Sweat 181 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:46,640 Speaker 2: and Tears, David Clayton Thomas, was having some immigration problems 182 00:09:46,640 --> 00:09:49,560 Speaker 2: and he was going to be deported. So imagine now 183 00:09:50,000 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 2: you're in the hottest band going and you can't record 184 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 2: with your singer and you can't tour with your singer 185 00:09:56,360 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 2: in the United States because he's been deported. So the 186 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 2: band is now faced this and now the State Department 187 00:10:02,200 --> 00:10:05,079 Speaker 2: shows up and, in a word that we've heard a 188 00:10:05,120 --> 00:10:07,480 Speaker 2: lot in the last few years, there was a quid 189 00:10:07,520 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 2: pro quo, and the quid pro quo was, if you 190 00:10:11,000 --> 00:10:14,320 Speaker 2: do this tour for us, we will make David's immigration 191 00:10:14,440 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 2: problems go away. And that is in fact what happened. 192 00:10:18,400 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 2: So they blackmailed them. Isn't it interesting where they put 193 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,679 Speaker 2: this pressure on them to get them to go, we 194 00:10:24,720 --> 00:10:28,240 Speaker 2: want you to represent American pop culture, and then when 195 00:10:28,280 --> 00:10:30,560 Speaker 2: it's over there like, well, we don't want you to 196 00:10:30,600 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 2: represent American pop culture. Actually, And I remember, I think 197 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,720 Speaker 2: you said in the film that their debut album which 198 00:10:37,760 --> 00:10:40,520 Speaker 2: I devoured that album when I was young. Clayton Thomas 199 00:10:40,600 --> 00:10:43,080 Speaker 2: is one of the most legendary vocalists I've ever heard 200 00:10:43,080 --> 00:10:44,480 Speaker 2: in my life. I mean, that's a guy that could 201 00:10:44,480 --> 00:10:46,800 Speaker 2: have sang on Broadway for the rest of his life. 202 00:10:46,800 --> 00:10:48,320 Speaker 2: I mean, he had the greatest voice. 203 00:10:48,760 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 1: But I think you mentioned in the film that their 204 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,040 Speaker 1: record was number one and beat out Abby Road. 205 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,800 Speaker 2: Correct, they won the Grammy for Best Album of the 206 00:10:57,880 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 2: Year over the Beatles Abbey Road. 207 00:11:00,000 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 1: What does that tell you? 208 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 2: It's the strangest thing. 209 00:11:01,920 --> 00:11:04,200 Speaker 1: That's amazing. We tried to get David Clayton Thomas on 210 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,360 Speaker 1: the show. You interviewed him directly, correctly, we did. 211 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 2: He lives in Toronto, and that was sort of a 212 00:11:10,320 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 2: casualty of COVID for a long time because the border 213 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:16,160 Speaker 2: was closed. We couldn't get up there to interview him, 214 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 2: and he couldn't come down here to be interviewed. And 215 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 2: then suddenly, in early twenty twenty one, there was a 216 00:11:22,840 --> 00:11:25,839 Speaker 2: three week window where the border actually opened, so we 217 00:11:25,920 --> 00:11:27,840 Speaker 2: flew up there as fast as we could and we 218 00:11:27,880 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 2: sat down with David, and as you saw in the 219 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:33,880 Speaker 2: film and perhaps your podcast audience will as well, he 220 00:11:33,960 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 2: was quite confessional. He was quite candid and open about 221 00:11:38,360 --> 00:11:40,560 Speaker 2: what was going on with him at that time and 222 00:11:40,800 --> 00:11:44,200 Speaker 2: how he felt about the band having to do this 223 00:11:44,720 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 2: to save him. 224 00:11:45,640 --> 00:11:53,280 Speaker 1: If you will director John Scheinfeld, if you enjoy in 225 00:11:53,360 --> 00:11:57,720 Speaker 1: depth conversations about the craft of documentary filmmaking, check out 226 00:11:57,720 --> 00:11:59,920 Speaker 1: my episode with director Rory Kennedy. 227 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,400 Speaker 3: I love Boeing and what Boeing stood for in this country, 228 00:12:03,480 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 3: and we really celebrate that in the film because it's 229 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:10,480 Speaker 3: been an extraordinary company for decades. You know, it helped 230 00:12:10,559 --> 00:12:12,319 Speaker 3: us get out of World War Two, it helped get 231 00:12:12,400 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 3: us to the Moon with my uncle Jack, and for 232 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 3: many decades, Boeing did one thing, which was to say, 233 00:12:18,600 --> 00:12:22,960 Speaker 3: we're going to prioritize excellence and safety. And the McDonald 234 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:26,240 Speaker 3: douglas people were put in charge, and they had a 235 00:12:26,360 --> 00:12:30,200 Speaker 3: very different business model, which was very Wall Street focused. 236 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,079 Speaker 1: To hear more of my conversation with Rory Kennedy, go 237 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:40,080 Speaker 1: to Here's the Thing dot org. After the break. John 238 00:12:40,120 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 1: Shinfeld shares his experience working with Yoko Ono on his 239 00:12:44,360 --> 00:12:57,200 Speaker 1: film The US Versus John Lennon. I'm Alec Baldwin and 240 00:12:57,240 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 1: you're listening to Here's the Thing document Henry. Filmmaker John 241 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:05,880 Speaker 1: Scheinfeld sometimes finds himself producing more than one film on 242 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: the same subject, as he did with Frank Sinatra, Andy Williams, 243 00:13:10,000 --> 00:13:11,800 Speaker 1: and the late actor Peter Sellers. 244 00:13:12,880 --> 00:13:15,200 Speaker 2: I have the best job. I get to go interesting 245 00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,160 Speaker 2: places and talk to interesting people about interesting things. I 246 00:13:18,160 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 2: can't imagine for me a better job. And I of 247 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 2: course had seen Peter Sellers. I'd seen the Pink Panther 248 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:28,200 Speaker 2: films and seen some of his other things, and I 249 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:31,120 Speaker 2: just thought he was hysterical, and so a chance to 250 00:13:31,160 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 2: tell his story was interesting. But my approach to a 251 00:13:34,600 --> 00:13:36,640 Speaker 2: lot of these films is not to do a straight 252 00:13:36,760 --> 00:13:39,239 Speaker 2: on and he was born in a log cabin in Westchester, 253 00:13:39,360 --> 00:13:42,320 Speaker 2: and you know, I'm always looking to tell an unknown 254 00:13:42,400 --> 00:13:47,000 Speaker 2: story about somebody who's well known and to come into 255 00:13:47,040 --> 00:13:49,679 Speaker 2: it that way, and so Sellers. In fact, that film 256 00:13:49,760 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 2: was called The Unknown Peter Sellers. And while we did 257 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: have some excerpts from his well known films, we did 258 00:13:56,840 --> 00:13:59,280 Speaker 2: a lot of work to dig up clips from things 259 00:13:59,280 --> 00:14:01,640 Speaker 2: that were not as well known. That helps show the 260 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,480 Speaker 2: evolution of his talent. So that was kind of interesting. 261 00:14:04,920 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 2: Film came out, was very well received, and Columbia Pictures 262 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,160 Speaker 2: came to me and said, we're doing a Blu Ray 263 00:14:11,200 --> 00:14:14,880 Speaker 2: release of Doctor Strangelove, and we want to have some 264 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 2: bonus material on the Blu Ray and we want to 265 00:14:18,040 --> 00:14:20,720 Speaker 2: tell the story of Peter Sellers and Doctor Strangelove. 266 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:22,320 Speaker 1: Can you do that? Th Oh, that'd be great. 267 00:14:23,080 --> 00:14:25,000 Speaker 2: So we took some of the interviews that I did 268 00:14:25,040 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 2: for the previous one and then did a lot of 269 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 2: new interviews with people that had worked with Stanley Kubrick 270 00:14:29,920 --> 00:14:32,760 Speaker 2: and put the story together. So as long as I 271 00:14:32,800 --> 00:14:35,560 Speaker 2: can find that interesting way in that hasn't been done 272 00:14:35,880 --> 00:14:37,760 Speaker 2: you know, ten times before, I'm very. 273 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:41,840 Speaker 1: Happy This is very similar to one man shows in 274 00:14:41,920 --> 00:14:45,800 Speaker 1: the Broadway theater. Ideally, you pick someone who people know 275 00:14:45,960 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: but they don't really know. And I've worked on a 276 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,560 Speaker 1: couple of one man shows with that ben someone you 277 00:14:52,640 --> 00:14:57,000 Speaker 1: know about you under no circumstances. Do you really know them? Now? 278 00:14:57,400 --> 00:14:59,640 Speaker 1: This is something that I get wrong. And then as 279 00:14:59,680 --> 00:15:01,560 Speaker 1: I look at this list and I think, well, here's 280 00:15:01,600 --> 00:15:05,240 Speaker 1: somebody who I found so intriguing, and maybe I worked 281 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,240 Speaker 1: with them and I love them to death and I 282 00:15:07,320 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: love them all my life, and they might not have 283 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:11,880 Speaker 1: been the easiest subject for you to deal with. I 284 00:15:11,960 --> 00:15:15,400 Speaker 1: worked with Jonathan Winters, and what was that like? Did 285 00:15:15,440 --> 00:15:17,480 Speaker 1: you get to interview him? You sat down with him, We. 286 00:15:17,480 --> 00:15:20,120 Speaker 2: Spent time with him. I love Jonathan. I have to 287 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:22,920 Speaker 2: tell you. What we wanted to do was not just 288 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,000 Speaker 2: tell the story of his career in his life, but 289 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:27,920 Speaker 2: to get a sense of, yes, who he was as 290 00:15:27,920 --> 00:15:29,960 Speaker 2: a person. So we decided we were going to follow 291 00:15:30,040 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 2: him around Santa Barbara, where he lived. He took us 292 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:36,960 Speaker 2: into a travel agency, he took us into the bank 293 00:15:37,000 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 2: as he was making a deposit. We went to the 294 00:15:39,360 --> 00:15:41,560 Speaker 2: gas station when he was getting his car filled up, 295 00:15:42,040 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 2: and he would talk to people around just it was 296 00:15:44,440 --> 00:15:47,960 Speaker 2: totally ad libbed and all of that. What was interesting 297 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:51,640 Speaker 2: about Jonathan was he knows the reputation that he had 298 00:15:52,560 --> 00:15:53,760 Speaker 2: and he said, all right, so what kind of a 299 00:15:53,760 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 2: film do you want to make? And I said to him, 300 00:15:56,160 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 2: what kind of a film do you want. 301 00:15:57,320 --> 00:15:58,000 Speaker 1: Made about you? 302 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:00,760 Speaker 2: And it was like whoa No one had ever asked 303 00:16:00,800 --> 00:16:03,080 Speaker 2: him that question. He was mostly just hired and he 304 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:03,840 Speaker 2: would do what he. 305 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:04,440 Speaker 1: Was asked to do. 306 00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:07,120 Speaker 2: And he said, well, I would like to kind of play. 307 00:16:07,600 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 2: I'd like to play, and so we allowed him to 308 00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 2: play at these places and then with us in his 309 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:15,840 Speaker 2: sit down interviews. He could just kind of go wherever 310 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:20,120 Speaker 2: he wanted and then we stitched the show together from that. 311 00:16:20,680 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 2: But I thought he was great, terrific guy. 312 00:16:23,680 --> 00:16:26,120 Speaker 1: I did a film with him. We did the not 313 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,200 Speaker 1: that successful version of The Shadow that I did with 314 00:16:29,240 --> 00:16:31,960 Speaker 1: Marty Begman was the producer. And I'm up in a 315 00:16:32,000 --> 00:16:35,240 Speaker 1: cabin with my sister and my mother back in the 316 00:16:35,280 --> 00:16:38,800 Speaker 1: summer of nineteen ninety three and Marty calls me and says, 317 00:16:39,000 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 1: Jonathan Winters wants to talk to you, and I go 318 00:16:41,480 --> 00:16:43,440 Speaker 1: what he goes, Yeah, we're not signing him, and he 319 00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:45,280 Speaker 1: said he wants to talk to you, and he says, 320 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: what I want to know is why you want me 321 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:50,520 Speaker 1: in this movie? Why do you want me? And I go, well, 322 00:16:50,520 --> 00:16:54,080 Speaker 1: because I think you're this legendary comic talent. I worship you. 323 00:16:54,080 --> 00:16:56,680 Speaker 1: You're as funny as hell, and you're one of the 324 00:16:56,720 --> 00:16:59,000 Speaker 1: greatest actors I've ever seen a comic actor. And so 325 00:16:59,040 --> 00:17:00,960 Speaker 1: originally he's like, wow, all right, well thanks for calling 326 00:17:01,000 --> 00:17:02,840 Speaker 1: me and welcome back to you, and he agreed to 327 00:17:02,840 --> 00:17:04,119 Speaker 1: do the movie. We do the movie. 328 00:17:04,160 --> 00:17:05,280 Speaker 2: Did you have fun with him? 329 00:17:05,520 --> 00:17:09,800 Speaker 1: He was amazing. He was kind and he was sweet, 330 00:17:09,800 --> 00:17:12,480 Speaker 1: and he knew we loved him. I mean, you've got 331 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: other guys on here, none of which I met, but like, 332 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,880 Speaker 1: for example, I love Andy Williams. I love Andy Williams. 333 00:17:19,520 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 1: What was that experience like with somebody who's as velvety 334 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: and silky as he is. 335 00:17:24,320 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 2: Andy was a sweetheart. I did three shows for PBS 336 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 2: with him over the years, and he was an interesting guy, 337 00:17:32,560 --> 00:17:36,600 Speaker 2: alec in that everything he did had to be first class. 338 00:17:36,760 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 2: He wouldn't cheap out on anything, he wouldn't take the 339 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,600 Speaker 2: easy way. Everything had to be just right. And I 340 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 2: love that about him. And so I got to spend 341 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 2: a lot of time with him as we were picking 342 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 2: the clips for the show, and then with the interviews 343 00:17:49,760 --> 00:17:55,240 Speaker 2: that we did. Smart guy, very self deprecating and a 344 00:17:55,280 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 2: gorgeous voice. Just a gorgeous voice. Oh god, Okay, go 345 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 2: back to Nathan just for one second. You were talking 346 00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:05,040 Speaker 2: about how funny he could be. There's a great clip 347 00:18:05,080 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 2: in our piece that it's called the Stick, and it's 348 00:18:09,240 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 2: a clip from a Jack Parr show. And Jonathan comes 349 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:16,400 Speaker 2: out and Jack Parr gives him a broomstick that's been 350 00:18:16,440 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 2: cut in half, so it's just the wooden part, and 351 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 2: he hands it to Jonathan and he says, go. Jonathan 352 00:18:24,160 --> 00:18:26,600 Speaker 2: does seven and a half minutes with the stick, and 353 00:18:26,640 --> 00:18:30,120 Speaker 2: he's different characters in different countries, doing different things, each 354 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,480 Speaker 2: one of them more hysterical than the one before it. 355 00:18:32,880 --> 00:18:36,680 Speaker 2: And that's who he is. He was like an overgrown child, really, 356 00:18:36,720 --> 00:18:39,440 Speaker 2: but as you say, very sweet and very kind. 357 00:18:40,200 --> 00:18:43,679 Speaker 1: So when you do a film like Us Versus John Lennon, 358 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:48,040 Speaker 1: that's eighteen years ago and then it is, of course 359 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:51,560 Speaker 1: dead twenty six years by then. Was there a lot 360 00:18:51,600 --> 00:18:54,919 Speaker 1: of rights issues with Yoko Oner or the Beatles estate? 361 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:58,520 Speaker 1: Were there any issues with getting the rights to Lennon's story. 362 00:18:59,200 --> 00:19:03,040 Speaker 2: Not really, you know, Alec, My philosophy has always been, 363 00:19:03,280 --> 00:19:06,200 Speaker 2: if you're a straight shooter. I'm from the Midwest, I'm 364 00:19:06,200 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 2: not from New York, I'm not from Los Angeles. I'm 365 00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,120 Speaker 2: a straight shooter from the middle of the country. If 366 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 2: you're honest and straightforward with people and saying here's the 367 00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:14,760 Speaker 2: film we're going to make, here's what we're going to do. 368 00:19:15,080 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 2: I don't think you experienced many problems and we didn't hear. 369 00:19:17,800 --> 00:19:20,960 Speaker 2: But we had to go and pitch to Yoko and 370 00:19:21,080 --> 00:19:23,399 Speaker 2: we said, here's the film we want to make, and 371 00:19:23,520 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 2: it's about the political John Lennon, not the personal John Lennon. 372 00:19:26,680 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 2: And she loved that idea. But she gave us her 373 00:19:30,440 --> 00:19:34,560 Speaker 2: blessing but not her participation. And that's a key challenge 374 00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:38,000 Speaker 2: that we had because she's been blasted so much by 375 00:19:38,040 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 2: the media and been ill treated by many films and documentaries, 376 00:19:42,600 --> 00:19:44,800 Speaker 2: and I think she wanted to sort of keep us 377 00:19:44,840 --> 00:19:47,320 Speaker 2: at arm's length until she could see that we were 378 00:19:47,320 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 2: delivering what we said we were going to. So we 379 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:54,000 Speaker 2: had a two and a half hour rough cut, obscenely long, 380 00:19:54,680 --> 00:19:57,840 Speaker 2: with lots of Hole's film clip here, photograph here, because 381 00:19:57,920 --> 00:20:01,560 Speaker 2: she has this amazing archive that I knew we needed 382 00:20:01,600 --> 00:20:05,159 Speaker 2: access to, and we weren't getting it at first. So 383 00:20:05,720 --> 00:20:07,800 Speaker 2: I felt, all right, let's show her this rough cut 384 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,879 Speaker 2: and hopefully that'll open the door for us. So we 385 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,320 Speaker 2: go to the Dakota and we're ushered into her apartment, 386 00:20:14,320 --> 00:20:18,399 Speaker 2: which is this beautiful apartment. Everything's white. Everything's white, and 387 00:20:18,440 --> 00:20:20,439 Speaker 2: you have to take your shoes off when you come in. 388 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:23,200 Speaker 2: And we go into the kitchen and there's a fifty 389 00:20:23,240 --> 00:20:26,240 Speaker 2: two inch TV up on the wall. Her attorney is there, 390 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,560 Speaker 2: who's a great guy, and we're waiting for her, and 391 00:20:29,600 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 2: then she comes in. She's a small woman, she's four 392 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 2: to ten. She comes in with a pad and a 393 00:20:36,640 --> 00:20:40,399 Speaker 2: pencil and says, doesn't say hello, doesn't say good morning, 394 00:20:40,440 --> 00:20:41,800 Speaker 2: doesn't say you know, would you. 395 00:20:41,760 --> 00:20:43,480 Speaker 1: Like some tea? It's like, let's go. 396 00:20:44,560 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 2: So we put in the DVD and you've been in 397 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,800 Speaker 2: screenings like this, and all the way through Alex she's 398 00:20:50,800 --> 00:20:53,199 Speaker 2: taking notes all the way through. It's like, but da 399 00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 2: da da da, And my heart is like dropping down 400 00:20:55,680 --> 00:20:57,720 Speaker 2: to the floor because I'm convinced she hates it. And 401 00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 2: we're in big trouble here. Way through. No no, no, no, no, no, 402 00:21:02,160 --> 00:21:05,760 Speaker 2: Finally the two and a half hours is over, and 403 00:21:05,800 --> 00:21:10,240 Speaker 2: there's dead silence, and she looks at me and like 404 00:21:10,280 --> 00:21:14,840 Speaker 2: a little girl, claps her hands as if in applause, 405 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,200 Speaker 2: and says, then what she said a moment for you. 406 00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,280 Speaker 2: Oh my heart is now back up into my chest. 407 00:21:21,640 --> 00:21:24,480 Speaker 2: But she said then what she said publicly at Toronto 408 00:21:24,480 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 2: when we premiered the film there, she said, of all 409 00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:30,560 Speaker 2: the films made about John, this is the one he 410 00:21:30,840 --> 00:21:35,040 Speaker 2: would have loved. So we didn't have any rights issues 411 00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,639 Speaker 2: once she gave us the blessing, we got access to 412 00:21:37,680 --> 00:21:40,639 Speaker 2: whatever we needed in terms of rights, But it was 413 00:21:40,680 --> 00:21:45,000 Speaker 2: that archive that I wanted. After that screening, I don't 414 00:21:45,000 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 2: think a day or two would go by where either 415 00:21:46,840 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 2: she wouldn't call me or one of her assistants would concern, oh, 416 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 2: you've got to see this. You have to see this. 417 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:54,200 Speaker 2: We're sending you this piece of film. We're sending you this. 418 00:21:54,359 --> 00:21:58,160 Speaker 2: Suddenly the damn has broken, the water was pouring out, 419 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:01,359 Speaker 2: and you'll see in that the US versus John Lennon. 420 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,000 Speaker 2: We got access to a lot of rare and never 421 00:22:04,040 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 2: before seen footage that was in their archive. But each 422 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,359 Speaker 2: each film that I do has a different challenge has 423 00:22:10,359 --> 00:22:12,680 Speaker 2: a different landscape that has to be navigated. 424 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:14,520 Speaker 1: What was the hardest one for you to do? 425 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 2: Ooh, that's a great question. The toughest one was Coltrane 426 00:22:19,880 --> 00:22:24,320 Speaker 2: Chasing Train only because there was so little on him 427 00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:28,960 Speaker 2: and how to do that. The rights were somewhat complicated 428 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 2: because his catalog is controlled by three of the largest 429 00:22:34,200 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: music companies in the world. There's Universal, Warner and Concord. 430 00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:40,000 Speaker 2: We had to bring them all together so that we 431 00:22:40,040 --> 00:22:44,520 Speaker 2: could feature music from throughout his life. And sometimes, I mean, 432 00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,879 Speaker 2: you know this better than most is there are people 433 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:49,879 Speaker 2: in our business who are very nice, and there are 434 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 2: people in our business who are not so nice, and 435 00:22:52,200 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 2: every so often you bump into those. Sometimes it's a 436 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:57,320 Speaker 2: right situation. People who don't trust people, Oh, they don't 437 00:22:57,320 --> 00:22:59,560 Speaker 2: trust people. When I have them come on this podcast. 438 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 2: I'm a great filmmaker like you. But when I have 439 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 2: people come on this podcast, I mean it's sometimes I 440 00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:08,800 Speaker 2: say to them, my show was about appreciation. I'm not 441 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,760 Speaker 2: gonna have to get anybody. We shared that in common, alec. 442 00:23:12,040 --> 00:23:15,119 Speaker 2: I celebrate these people. It's because they're worthy of celebration. 443 00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:20,200 Speaker 2: And that doesn't mean that there aren't some negative aspects 444 00:23:20,240 --> 00:23:22,760 Speaker 2: of their life or some darker spots. 445 00:23:22,400 --> 00:23:26,040 Speaker 1: Where you know, I always write it off to fear. Yeah, sure, 446 00:23:26,400 --> 00:23:28,720 Speaker 1: I write it off to fear. They're just uptight people 447 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:31,360 Speaker 1: as by their nature. It isn't just with me, it's 448 00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:32,359 Speaker 1: with everybody, you know. 449 00:23:32,880 --> 00:23:35,040 Speaker 2: I did a film some years ago on Harry Nilsen 450 00:23:35,160 --> 00:23:37,880 Speaker 2: called who is Harry Nilsen? Why is everybody talking about him? 451 00:23:38,080 --> 00:23:41,199 Speaker 2: Harry's a very complicated guy, lots of darkness, lots of 452 00:23:41,240 --> 00:23:44,399 Speaker 2: bad behavior. We could have done the TMZ version of 453 00:23:44,440 --> 00:23:47,359 Speaker 2: that story, we could have done the National Inquirer version. 454 00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: Of that story. 455 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:50,400 Speaker 2: But it was a celebration of a great talent who 456 00:23:50,440 --> 00:23:53,160 Speaker 2: happened to have a dark side that he and everyone 457 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:57,080 Speaker 2: else acknowledged. And I think that's what made the film 458 00:23:57,119 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 2: work so well, is that you felt you were really 459 00:24:00,320 --> 00:24:02,600 Speaker 2: to know this guy. It wasn't a whitewash, it wasn't 460 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 2: a sanitized version of his life. Here's something Yoko had 461 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:09,359 Speaker 2: said to me, and Harry's widow had said to me, 462 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:09,840 Speaker 2: same things. 463 00:24:09,840 --> 00:24:10,120 Speaker 1: She said. 464 00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:14,680 Speaker 2: Look, I know what John was, says Yoko, and Una 465 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 2: Nielsen says, I know what Harry was. Just don't make 466 00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:20,760 Speaker 2: stuff up, tell the truth. I'll be happy and that's 467 00:24:20,800 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 2: what I try to do. And they were good friends 468 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,000 Speaker 2: Nilson and Lennon. 469 00:24:23,760 --> 00:24:24,560 Speaker 1: Oh very much so. 470 00:24:24,920 --> 00:24:27,280 Speaker 2: They hung out right up to the time John was murdered. 471 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,680 Speaker 1: Well, one thing I remarked on to the producers here 472 00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:34,320 Speaker 1: with me was that it's interesting how the Beatles reached 473 00:24:34,359 --> 00:24:38,040 Speaker 1: the height that they reached because they became movie stars. 474 00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,359 Speaker 1: That was one contributing factor. The great songwriting, the great performing, 475 00:24:42,119 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 1: the need that audience has had in the wake of 476 00:24:44,160 --> 00:24:48,040 Speaker 1: Kennedy's death to have some light and some joy and fun. 477 00:24:48,440 --> 00:24:51,760 Speaker 1: And when you watch Hard Day's Night, which is considered 478 00:24:51,800 --> 00:24:55,440 Speaker 1: a classic film, they're the Marx brothers, and they all 479 00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: had distinct personalities like the Marx Brothers, very much so. 480 00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 2: And that's I think what distinguish them, as you're saying, 481 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,160 Speaker 2: from any other band that was around. And they were 482 00:25:04,240 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 2: extremely talented in so many ways. I sit around with 483 00:25:08,400 --> 00:25:11,400 Speaker 2: friends all the time and we're talking about music, and 484 00:25:11,960 --> 00:25:14,000 Speaker 2: what I often will say is the thing about the 485 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,800 Speaker 2: Beatles that distinguished them from almost any other band is 486 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:19,959 Speaker 2: that each album is different than the one that preceded it. 487 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,840 Speaker 2: They are trying new things, they are pushing the envolve, 488 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 2: they are expanding the horizons. They didn't care to repeat themselves, 489 00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,000 Speaker 2: and so each one is an experiment if you will. 490 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,600 Speaker 2: You know, Stones are a great rock and roll band, 491 00:25:32,640 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 2: but their record sounded a lot alike for the last 492 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,720 Speaker 2: fifty years, you know. So that's what I think made 493 00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:40,960 Speaker 2: the Beatles so special, and we were able to capture 494 00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,320 Speaker 2: some of that in the US versus John Lennon, And 495 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:46,000 Speaker 2: it wasn't really about the Beatles, but we had great 496 00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 2: cooperation also from Apple in terms of getting the stuff 497 00:25:49,359 --> 00:25:52,040 Speaker 2: that we needed. And so again I think if you're 498 00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,600 Speaker 2: a nice person and your motives are pure, and you 499 00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:58,520 Speaker 2: do what you say you will, I think you're going 500 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:01,200 Speaker 2: to do okay. And so so you asked a really 501 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,120 Speaker 2: interesting question about the hardest one. Each one has had 502 00:26:05,119 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 2: his hard moments, but largely all of them have been 503 00:26:09,800 --> 00:26:12,600 Speaker 2: really great positive experiences for me. I've not walked away 504 00:26:12,640 --> 00:26:16,160 Speaker 2: from any one of the forty seven documentaries I've done 505 00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,000 Speaker 2: and said, WHOA, I hated doing that one. 506 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:23,239 Speaker 1: Now when you do someone who I remember this for 507 00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,320 Speaker 1: some reason because I'm such a fan of his. In 508 00:26:27,440 --> 00:26:31,760 Speaker 1: Nick Tosh's book If I'm Not Mistaken, Dean Martin stands 509 00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: there with somebody and he puts on a bing Crosby 510 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,879 Speaker 1: album and now Elvis is emerging. He puts on Elvis's album, 511 00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 1: he goes, aren't we really doing the same thing? Isn't 512 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:44,959 Speaker 1: it really like just an updated form of crooning? Being's 513 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:48,720 Speaker 1: a crooner, I'm a crooner. Elvis is a crooner. And 514 00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:51,960 Speaker 1: I thought found that was fascinating. Crosby died like on 515 00:26:52,000 --> 00:26:54,320 Speaker 1: a golf course in Scotland, right, he was golfing over 516 00:26:54,320 --> 00:26:56,119 Speaker 1: there and he dropped out of a heart attack. So 517 00:26:56,200 --> 00:26:58,439 Speaker 1: what happens when you do the film about him and 518 00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:02,440 Speaker 1: there's extant footage? But are there family members you wrangle 519 00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:04,640 Speaker 1: and like when you work on somebody who's been dead 520 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:05,320 Speaker 1: a while. 521 00:27:06,080 --> 00:27:09,119 Speaker 2: Right, the question is they're not there to speak for themselves. 522 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,120 Speaker 2: You really have two options. One is to find their 523 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:16,040 Speaker 2: close friends, colleagues and family members who can speak for 524 00:27:16,119 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 2: them and give you a window into their character and 525 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 2: personality and experiences. Or what you can do is what 526 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,960 Speaker 2: I did in Chasing Train is where there were no 527 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:31,120 Speaker 2: interviews with him on film or video. He had only 528 00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,360 Speaker 2: done a couple of radio interviews and the sound wasn't 529 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 2: good enough for me to use. But I wanted him 530 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:37,840 Speaker 2: to have a presence in the film and he had 531 00:27:37,880 --> 00:27:41,280 Speaker 2: died in nineteen sixty seven, so I got the idea 532 00:27:41,560 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 2: of going to He did a lot of print interviews 533 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 2: for newspapers magazines, and so I picked words that he 534 00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,600 Speaker 2: spoke in those interviews that gave us a window into him. 535 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 2: And because I'm somewhat fearless, I said, Okay, now I 536 00:27:57,920 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 2: have these, I want a movie star to read them. 537 00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 2: So I put together a list and I went to 538 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 2: a casting director friend of mine and I said, will 539 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:08,280 Speaker 2: you help me get one of these people to be 540 00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:10,600 Speaker 2: the voice of John Coltrane. She said, oh, I love 541 00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,480 Speaker 2: your films, of course, so tell me your first choice 542 00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,520 Speaker 2: and give me an email and that I can send 543 00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:18,240 Speaker 2: on to them as to what you're looking for them 544 00:28:18,280 --> 00:28:21,720 Speaker 2: to do. And I'll get into this anyway. Long story short, 545 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:24,600 Speaker 2: We got Denzel Washington to speak the words of John Coltrane. 546 00:28:24,640 --> 00:28:26,480 Speaker 2: So what that enabled us to do. Coltrane was not 547 00:28:26,600 --> 00:28:29,880 Speaker 2: there to speak for himself, but we had someone as 548 00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 2: talented as Denzel to bring those words to life and 549 00:28:33,359 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 2: in a small way, bring Coultrane to life. 550 00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: Documentary filmmaker John Seinfeld. If you're enjoying this conversation, tell 551 00:28:43,920 --> 00:28:46,680 Speaker 1: a friend and be sure to follow Here's the Thing 552 00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. 553 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,680 Speaker 1: When we come back, John Seinfeld shares the one movie 554 00:28:55,720 --> 00:29:10,480 Speaker 1: he wasn't willing to make. I'm Alec Baldwin and you're 555 00:29:10,520 --> 00:29:14,840 Speaker 1: listening to Here's the Thing. After making documentary films for 556 00:29:14,920 --> 00:29:18,040 Speaker 1: three decades, it seems like there isn't a topic director 557 00:29:18,120 --> 00:29:21,640 Speaker 1: John Seinfeld hasn't covered. I wanted to know if there 558 00:29:21,680 --> 00:29:24,200 Speaker 1: was ever a film he wished to make but never 559 00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:25,200 Speaker 1: got the opportunity. 560 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,240 Speaker 2: There are people I've tried to go after and they 561 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 2: just weren't interested. Phil Collins I went after for a while, 562 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 2: couldn't get that. I'm going after another one. Now I'm 563 00:29:35,200 --> 00:29:37,320 Speaker 2: not sure that that's going to work. You know. The 564 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:40,200 Speaker 2: interesting thing is, and you've been around this business so long, 565 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,200 Speaker 2: you get a reputation and that can be good. So 566 00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,479 Speaker 2: I have a reputation for doing good work. But you know, 567 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 2: I'm not on everybody's list, and I'm not on everybody's lips. 568 00:29:50,680 --> 00:29:51,280 Speaker 1: I kind of like. 569 00:29:51,360 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 2: Being in my own little world, flying under the radar, 570 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:57,640 Speaker 2: doing what I do and having a great time doing it. 571 00:29:58,280 --> 00:30:00,320 Speaker 2: And one of my failings is I'm not a great 572 00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,280 Speaker 2: self promoter. There are documentarians out there whose names, you know, 573 00:30:04,680 --> 00:30:07,080 Speaker 2: everybody knows them, everybody hears them, because they're great at that. 574 00:30:07,560 --> 00:30:09,960 Speaker 2: They may not be the greatest filmmakers in the world, 575 00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,239 Speaker 2: but they are really good at that. And so I 576 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,920 Speaker 2: do find people will come to me from time to time, 577 00:30:15,960 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 2: but a lot of the time I have to generate 578 00:30:17,720 --> 00:30:20,680 Speaker 2: my own ideas and persuade them that I am the 579 00:30:20,760 --> 00:30:23,080 Speaker 2: right person to do it. So I wish it would 580 00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 2: be one of those things where the phone is ringing 581 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:26,360 Speaker 2: all the time, Hey, we got this, we got this, 582 00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:28,800 Speaker 2: we got this. And there's the other thing. 583 00:30:28,880 --> 00:30:29,080 Speaker 1: You know. 584 00:30:29,440 --> 00:30:32,320 Speaker 2: Many years ago, I was offered a Whitney Houston project 585 00:30:32,920 --> 00:30:35,320 Speaker 2: and it was like, you know, I kind of founded 586 00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:38,240 Speaker 2: my agent, I kind of founded the studio that wanted 587 00:30:38,280 --> 00:30:41,959 Speaker 2: to do it because I said no, and they were like, well, 588 00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 2: but we're this and it's Whitney. I said, you know, 589 00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:46,800 Speaker 2: we're not going to be able to tell the real story. 590 00:30:47,120 --> 00:30:49,360 Speaker 2: They're looking for a sanitized version of her life and 591 00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,280 Speaker 2: I just wasn't interested in doing that. So I have 592 00:30:52,360 --> 00:30:55,240 Speaker 2: turned down some things as well, but again I kind 593 00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:57,800 Speaker 2: of keep coming back to what's the story. If I 594 00:30:57,840 --> 00:30:59,760 Speaker 2: find something I really like, then I'm out there trying 595 00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:01,680 Speaker 2: to find the best way to get it financed and 596 00:31:01,720 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 2: get it made. 597 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,720 Speaker 1: So some of these things you're commissioned, I would imagine 598 00:31:05,760 --> 00:31:08,440 Speaker 1: American Masters and things like that, and other ones you 599 00:31:08,480 --> 00:31:10,520 Speaker 1: pitch and you birth them. 600 00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 2: Correct, that's right, American Masters. We pitched Bob Hope for 601 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 2: that and they love that idea. And a producer that 602 00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:21,000 Speaker 2: I had worked with before had pitched Elvis to Paramount 603 00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:23,840 Speaker 2: Plus and they bought it. But they bought my vision 604 00:31:23,880 --> 00:31:26,959 Speaker 2: of it because the producer didn't quite know what it was, 605 00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:29,000 Speaker 2: so I had to come up with what it was. 606 00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:32,280 Speaker 2: But yeah, so sometimes people come to me. Sometimes I'm 607 00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 2: out there, you know, being Willy Lohman trying to my 608 00:31:34,800 --> 00:31:38,920 Speaker 2: best or Glengarry Glenn Ross to use an Alec Baldwin 609 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,239 Speaker 2: environment where you're having to sell and go out there 610 00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,320 Speaker 2: and do the best you can, and this is a 611 00:31:44,320 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 2: particularly challenging time to do that. The business has been 612 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:48,360 Speaker 2: changing dramatically. 613 00:31:48,800 --> 00:31:50,520 Speaker 1: Well, I wanted to ask you about that. You know, 614 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,400 Speaker 1: there used to be no market for really for documentary films, 615 00:31:54,760 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: not compared to now, and now there's a huge market 616 00:31:56,960 --> 00:32:00,320 Speaker 1: for documentary films and it's just crazy. What are the 617 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:02,080 Speaker 1: changes you've seen during your career. 618 00:32:02,960 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 2: As you describe, I think there was a time where, 619 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 2: you know, the first documentary I ever saw was in 620 00:32:07,760 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 2: high school and it was about the mating of the 621 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 2: teats fly in the South Pacific. Couldn't have been a 622 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:17,280 Speaker 2: more boring documentary. But as time has gone along, particularly 623 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 2: the last twenty years, you have seen an explosion. It's 624 00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 2: kind of been said that it's the golden age of documentaries, 625 00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 2: and I think that's really true. The audience has embraced 626 00:32:27,360 --> 00:32:30,600 Speaker 2: these as the same kind of If it's great storytelling, 627 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:33,680 Speaker 2: it can be as good as any scripted property. But 628 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 2: what's changing now is the streaming has changed the entire landscape. 629 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:42,440 Speaker 2: There are more buyers buying documentaries, but they are paying 630 00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:46,600 Speaker 2: less for them. And now with the streaming business really 631 00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,000 Speaker 2: being questioned that so many of the platforms are not 632 00:32:50,080 --> 00:32:53,560 Speaker 2: making money, they are cutting back on the number of 633 00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:56,080 Speaker 2: projects they're buying and the money that they are paying 634 00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:58,880 Speaker 2: for them. So we have to be very creative about 635 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:01,840 Speaker 2: getting our documentary He's made. So you can go to 636 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 2: a platform and I call it the kneepad tour, where 637 00:33:05,280 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 2: you get down on your knees and beg for money. 638 00:33:08,120 --> 00:33:11,000 Speaker 2: Here's my story, so you can do that. But also 639 00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,479 Speaker 2: what has become something that I've made good use of 640 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:19,160 Speaker 2: in the last ten years or so is independent financing, 641 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 2: where you go to someone a high net worth individual 642 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,840 Speaker 2: who has the same passion for the subject that I do, 643 00:33:26,400 --> 00:33:28,680 Speaker 2: and they'll say, Okay, we're going to fund this documentary. 644 00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,160 Speaker 2: Then we'll worry about selling it later. And so I've 645 00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:32,880 Speaker 2: done a number of those. Blutzwat and Tears was one 646 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 2: of those films where we were funded entirely upfront, great budget, 647 00:33:36,560 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 2: and then armed with a finished film, we can then 648 00:33:39,480 --> 00:33:41,240 Speaker 2: say all right, here it is buy it or don't 649 00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:43,160 Speaker 2: buy it. And you know what that's like because you 650 00:33:43,160 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 2: have your own production company. But sometimes to try to 651 00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 2: persuade one of these young buyers what it is that 652 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 2: you're so passionate about can be a real challenge and 653 00:33:52,680 --> 00:33:55,920 Speaker 2: sometimes they just don't understand it. I had a meet 654 00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:59,080 Speaker 2: and greet with one of the platforms last year and so, 655 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:00,440 Speaker 2: so what are you doing and I'm in and some 656 00:34:00,480 --> 00:34:02,760 Speaker 2: of the things that I was interested in, and they said, oh, well, John, 657 00:34:02,800 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 2: you have to realize we are a millennial channel. History 658 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 2: for us is the nineties. It was like whoa you know, 659 00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:13,160 Speaker 2: so those are some of the challenges we have as 660 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:15,520 Speaker 2: well the obstacles we have to overcome. 661 00:34:15,520 --> 00:34:17,719 Speaker 1: At the Hampton Film Festival that I am on the 662 00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,480 Speaker 1: board of and David NuGen is the artistic director, and 663 00:34:21,520 --> 00:34:23,480 Speaker 1: we take advantage for the last several years, I think 664 00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:26,760 Speaker 1: it's fourteen or fifteen years now, of the captive audience 665 00:34:26,800 --> 00:34:28,400 Speaker 1: out there for the summer and we have a summer 666 00:34:28,400 --> 00:34:32,600 Speaker 1: documentary program. We always tried to do some varied programming, 667 00:34:32,680 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 1: you know, a biopic, a topical one, and then last 668 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,600 Speaker 1: we tried to do something that was really cinematically more magical, 669 00:34:39,120 --> 00:34:42,160 Speaker 1: and one of my favorites is Bombay Beach by Almahrel. 670 00:34:42,880 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: But let me ask you this, what do you think 671 00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:46,400 Speaker 1: about the strike and the way things are with the 672 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: streamers now. 673 00:34:48,040 --> 00:34:50,759 Speaker 2: I'm a proud member of the Writer's Guild, proud member 674 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:54,520 Speaker 2: of the Director's Guild. I have my concerns about strikes. 675 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,560 Speaker 2: I think this last strike was interesting from the Writer's 676 00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 2: Guild standpoint in that almost every point they were striking 677 00:35:02,040 --> 00:35:04,440 Speaker 2: for had to do with scripted material, did not impact 678 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 2: documentaries in any significant way. And the business is changing 679 00:35:10,239 --> 00:35:14,239 Speaker 2: so much. To stand up for yourselves is very admirable 680 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:18,000 Speaker 2: to try to get higher fees, all that sort of stuff. 681 00:35:18,040 --> 00:35:22,240 Speaker 2: That's all great, but there's a reality to the business. 682 00:35:22,320 --> 00:35:25,800 Speaker 2: The business is shrinking, and you may get more money 683 00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:28,160 Speaker 2: and you may get bigger fees. You may have more 684 00:35:28,200 --> 00:35:31,280 Speaker 2: writers in a room, but they may be making less 685 00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:35,640 Speaker 2: and there may be not as many opportunities for younger writers. 686 00:35:36,760 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 2: I did a guest lecture at UCLA last week and 687 00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:41,799 Speaker 2: I was talking to some students and I did say 688 00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:45,640 Speaker 2: I felt happy that there's more career light behind me 689 00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 2: than ahead of me in our business, because I'm not 690 00:35:47,680 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 2: quite sure what the business is going to be in 691 00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:53,919 Speaker 2: ten or fifteen. And I think sometimes with strikes, you're 692 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,359 Speaker 2: kind of dealing with the same model that's been going 693 00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:00,840 Speaker 2: on for fifty or sixty years and not necessarily recognizing 694 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,400 Speaker 2: the changes in the business and perhaps how creatively to 695 00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,840 Speaker 2: get what you want in a different way. Streaming, to 696 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 2: me is super exciting, I said to you on our 697 00:36:09,520 --> 00:36:13,279 Speaker 2: first conversation. We've been binging thirty Rock, my wife and 698 00:36:13,320 --> 00:36:16,520 Speaker 2: I and that's one of the great things about streaming 699 00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,000 Speaker 2: is you can sit there and watch the history of 700 00:36:19,040 --> 00:36:21,239 Speaker 2: a whole show and it's right there for you, and 701 00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,760 Speaker 2: that's a wonderful wonderful thing. And they have great movies 702 00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,759 Speaker 2: and great documentaries, all of that, but in cutting back 703 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:34,040 Speaker 2: and in terms of purchasing less content or more homogeneous content, 704 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,800 Speaker 2: meaning just celebrities, just big names, as opposed to more thoughtful, 705 00:36:37,840 --> 00:36:38,319 Speaker 2: smart things. 706 00:36:38,320 --> 00:36:39,839 Speaker 1: It's a contracting business. 707 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:40,440 Speaker 2: It is, very much. 708 00:36:40,440 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 1: And what you have. 709 00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:43,719 Speaker 2: What you have then is sometimes people like me will turn, 710 00:36:44,200 --> 00:36:46,440 Speaker 2: We'll go on to a particular platform and there's just 711 00:36:46,480 --> 00:36:48,520 Speaker 2: not that much to see. And so when they talk 712 00:36:48,560 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 2: about people drifting away and unsubscribing, that's why, because there's 713 00:36:52,320 --> 00:36:53,840 Speaker 2: not enough really interesting stuff. 714 00:36:54,480 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: Now, who's somebody you've been you'd love to do. Who's 715 00:36:57,680 --> 00:36:59,680 Speaker 1: somebody you haven't done that you'd love to do. 716 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:02,520 Speaker 2: I have two of those I would dearly love to do. 717 00:37:02,560 --> 00:37:06,040 Speaker 2: Paul McCartney is one. Won't happen. He has a documentary 718 00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:08,880 Speaker 2: filmmaker in the family, but he's got a fascinating story. 719 00:37:08,920 --> 00:37:11,200 Speaker 2: I would dearly love to do that one, you know, 720 00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:14,600 Speaker 2: And I would love to do Rod Stewart. Rod Stewart 721 00:37:14,640 --> 00:37:18,479 Speaker 2: has an absolutely fascinating story of a man who has 722 00:37:19,160 --> 00:37:24,840 Speaker 2: reinvented himself in every decade and yet somehow, unmistakably is 723 00:37:24,880 --> 00:37:27,640 Speaker 2: still Rod Stewart. You know you've seen people, you know, 724 00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,400 Speaker 2: I'm sure, who try something new, try to reinvent themselves 725 00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:32,080 Speaker 2: to go with the current trend, and it's like, that's 726 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:34,399 Speaker 2: not even you. Why are you doing that? He has 727 00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,319 Speaker 2: this remarkable ability to do that. So that's something I'd 728 00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:40,200 Speaker 2: be interested in doing. And I have two stories now 729 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,359 Speaker 2: I'm taking out that I really were trying to find 730 00:37:42,360 --> 00:37:44,239 Speaker 2: the money for now. I have not really talked to 731 00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:47,120 Speaker 2: anybody about this, but because you asked, I'd be happy 732 00:37:47,200 --> 00:37:50,800 Speaker 2: to mention them. One is here we are. The hottest 733 00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,040 Speaker 2: topic in the world right now is the Middle East. 734 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 2: Peace in the Middle East, And I've got a story 735 00:37:55,200 --> 00:37:59,720 Speaker 2: I want to tell everybody thinks peace is an impossible dream. 736 00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:02,080 Speaker 2: Yet I have a story of a guy who did it. 737 00:38:02,719 --> 00:38:06,960 Speaker 2: He brought Arabs and Israelis together in a very creative way, 738 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,560 Speaker 2: hammered out a piece agreement that lasted for seventeen years. 739 00:38:10,600 --> 00:38:12,560 Speaker 2: He got the Nobel Peace Prize for doing it, and 740 00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,920 Speaker 2: the first African American to win the Nobel Peace Prize. 741 00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:20,160 Speaker 2: And it's a aspirational film about if you think something 742 00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:21,960 Speaker 2: can't be done, look at how this guy did it. 743 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:24,160 Speaker 2: Maybe there's some knowledge in it for how we can 744 00:38:24,160 --> 00:38:27,200 Speaker 2: approach it today. And that man's name was Ralph Bunch, 745 00:38:28,239 --> 00:38:31,319 Speaker 2: fascinating guy American diplomat working for the United Nations. 746 00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:34,239 Speaker 1: It's funny you say the ones you want and they 747 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:38,080 Speaker 1: reflect a really personal opinion you have or a taste 748 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,600 Speaker 1: you have. And I'm the same way. I always think 749 00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,719 Speaker 1: to myself, if I could do somebody who hadn't been done. 750 00:38:44,040 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 1: And I only say this because I've never seen an intelligent, 751 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:50,759 Speaker 1: full length interview done of Mick Jagger. Jagger has avoided 752 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:54,000 Speaker 1: any serious dialogue about it. And here he is, still, 753 00:38:54,320 --> 00:38:56,720 Speaker 1: you know, going at it. That're going on tour again, 754 00:38:56,880 --> 00:39:00,239 Speaker 1: and Jagger has got all the agum moor energy than 755 00:39:00,239 --> 00:39:02,080 Speaker 1: I do. And he's like, you know, eighty or whatever 756 00:39:02,120 --> 00:39:04,440 Speaker 1: he is now. No one's really gotten to him. No 757 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,319 Speaker 1: one sat him down and talked about musicianship. And in 758 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,400 Speaker 1: the arcs he's seen in society and even the lofty 759 00:39:11,040 --> 00:39:14,279 Speaker 1: perch he's on and he's a rich man and he's 760 00:39:14,320 --> 00:39:17,400 Speaker 1: a superstar around the world. He opens his mouth and 761 00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 1: you know who he is within one note. So the 762 00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,799 Speaker 1: new film is Whatever Happened to Blood, Sweat and Tears, 763 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:23,880 Speaker 1: And that's streaming where. 764 00:39:24,120 --> 00:39:26,680 Speaker 2: It is available now for purchase or rent on all 765 00:39:26,719 --> 00:39:27,680 Speaker 2: digital platforms. 766 00:39:27,960 --> 00:39:29,880 Speaker 1: I would love people to see this because it was amazing. 767 00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:32,640 Speaker 1: It was amazing, You're so nice story. It's so freakish 768 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:33,640 Speaker 1: and so fantastic it. 769 00:39:33,600 --> 00:39:35,480 Speaker 2: Is, and it's so strange. And the other thing that 770 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 2: struck me while I was making and we were sitting 771 00:39:37,640 --> 00:39:40,800 Speaker 2: in the editing room, and there's so many striking parallels 772 00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:43,080 Speaker 2: to what's going on in the world today. The extent 773 00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,439 Speaker 2: to which the country is polarized between left and right, 774 00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:50,600 Speaker 2: red and blue, the authoritarian regimes that are out there 775 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:53,879 Speaker 2: in the world, and what the band members experience when 776 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:57,960 Speaker 2: they went into those communist dictatorships. There are people today 777 00:39:58,120 --> 00:40:01,480 Speaker 2: in our country who praise Putin and praise dictators and 778 00:40:01,560 --> 00:40:04,239 Speaker 2: what these guys learned when they went over there was 779 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,920 Speaker 2: it is no walk in the park to live under 780 00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:10,239 Speaker 2: a country's ruled by those kinds of people. And there 781 00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:13,040 Speaker 2: are lessons to be learned from the past. And I 782 00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:15,759 Speaker 2: so love this and I'm proud of this film for 783 00:40:16,480 --> 00:40:19,520 Speaker 2: not only the entertainment value, but also the message that 784 00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:19,840 Speaker 2: we have. 785 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,719 Speaker 1: My thanks to John Seinfeld. This episode was produced by 786 00:40:29,800 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 1: Kathleen Russo, Zach MacNeice, and Maureen Hobin. Our engineer is 787 00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:38,760 Speaker 1: Frank Imperial. Our social media manager is Danielle Gingwich. Here's 788 00:40:38,800 --> 00:40:42,240 Speaker 1: the Thing is recorded at CDM Studios in New York City. 789 00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:44,920 Speaker 1: I'm a mc baldwin. Here's the Thing is brought to 790 00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:46,720 Speaker 1: you by iHeart Radio 791 00:41:01,239 --> 00:41:01,439 Speaker 3: Four