1 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:16,280 Speaker 1: This is Gavin Newsom and this is new Kidkrich. I 2 00:00:16,320 --> 00:00:19,079 Speaker 1: just wanted if I could just briefly up top. You 3 00:00:19,079 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 1: sent out a couple of tweets over the last twenty 4 00:00:21,440 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: four hours specific to Ukraine. Obviously topical issue, and I 5 00:00:25,720 --> 00:00:30,120 Speaker 1: appreciated candidly your tweets which were a little more assertive 6 00:00:30,160 --> 00:00:35,480 Speaker 1: pushing back on this notion that somehow time is our 7 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:37,720 Speaker 1: ally with Putin, that it's time to be a little 8 00:00:37,760 --> 00:00:40,560 Speaker 1: more muscular, time to call him out. You also called 9 00:00:40,560 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: out I thought an important fact that's not necessarily part 10 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:47,599 Speaker 1: of the discourse. He spent twenty one years in Sweden. 11 00:00:47,680 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: I mean, these guys have a longer. 12 00:00:49,479 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 2: View version that was actually the Napoleonic Wars. 13 00:00:55,360 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, it was Putin who said, look, we fought Sweden 14 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 3: for twenty one years. You think I want to slow down. 15 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: You think I'm going to slow down, So tell me, 16 00:01:02,640 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: I mean, where are you in the over under? I mean, 17 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:08,680 Speaker 1: is you know, I appreciate your advocacy for trump et cetera. 18 00:01:08,800 --> 00:01:11,399 Speaker 1: But I think, I mean it is the revelation that 19 00:01:11,720 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: he's waking up to this new reality that this is 20 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: not something you can snap your fingers. Putin's a different 21 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:16,839 Speaker 1: kind of character. 22 00:01:17,800 --> 00:01:22,440 Speaker 3: Well, I think that first of all, he probably shares 23 00:01:22,760 --> 00:01:26,479 Speaker 3: a lot of people's concern that if you push Putin 24 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:31,520 Speaker 3: too hard you end up with a tactical nuclear war. 25 00:01:32,680 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 3: And then maybe more so, I think there's a there's 26 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:39,679 Speaker 3: a dance around Putin that's a little more complicated than 27 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,199 Speaker 3: just yes or no. On the other hand, I think 28 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:47,400 Speaker 3: he actually believed from his first term when they did 29 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,760 Speaker 3: a pretty good relationship. Although he had sent lethal weapons 30 00:01:51,040 --> 00:01:54,480 Speaker 3: to Ukraine. He is much tougher than Obama had been, 31 00:01:55,080 --> 00:01:58,200 Speaker 3: but he was pleasant. They had no major fights, and 32 00:01:58,280 --> 00:01:59,640 Speaker 3: I think he had in the back of his head 33 00:01:59,640 --> 00:02:03,280 Speaker 3: to look, we're reasonable, we can talk with each other. 34 00:02:04,080 --> 00:02:07,160 Speaker 3: And it's taken him, I think, about five months to 35 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:12,840 Speaker 3: realize nothing Putin says matters. That what matters is what 36 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:16,040 Speaker 3: Putin does. And when he says to you, oh, I 37 00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 3: really like to get to a truce, but by the way, 38 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 3: for the next three days, I'm going to bomb civilians. 39 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 3: After a while begins to sink in. You know, it's 40 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:26,760 Speaker 3: the opposite of George W. Bush. I'll never forget the 41 00:02:27,320 --> 00:02:30,480 Speaker 3: day Bush said that he looked into Putin's eyes and 42 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,120 Speaker 3: saw his soul, and I knew that was nuts, because 43 00:02:34,480 --> 00:02:36,960 Speaker 3: you can't be a KGB lieutenant colonel have a soul. 44 00:02:37,440 --> 00:02:41,240 Speaker 3: So with the whole concept of you know, somehow we 45 00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,160 Speaker 3: try to make him a Western figure, he's not. He's 46 00:02:44,200 --> 00:02:47,880 Speaker 3: a Russian figure, and Russia is a different culture than 47 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:49,239 Speaker 3: Western Europe. 48 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: And so the idea of what secondary oil sanctions you're 49 00:02:53,040 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: advocating for. 50 00:02:54,160 --> 00:02:59,119 Speaker 3: Well, I mean I advocate four big things, more weapons, 51 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 3: faster and something which the German minister Preme minister said 52 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,640 Speaker 3: today that they'd agreed to, which has used the weapons 53 00:03:06,639 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 3: in Russia, so you start causing him pain in his territory. 54 00:03:11,440 --> 00:03:14,880 Speaker 1: And this is the longer range weapons, allowing them more range. 55 00:03:15,000 --> 00:03:18,280 Speaker 3: We've begun to give them weapons that can reach Russia, 56 00:03:18,360 --> 00:03:20,880 Speaker 3: and of course they have lots of They're going to 57 00:03:20,880 --> 00:03:24,480 Speaker 3: produce some astonishing number of drones this year. Yeah, I 58 00:03:24,560 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 3: mean what I think, like a million five or something. 59 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:31,400 Speaker 3: I mean, people forgot Ukraine used to be a major 60 00:03:31,480 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 3: industrial center for the Soviet Union. There's a lot of 61 00:03:34,560 --> 00:03:38,320 Speaker 3: engineers in Ukraine, a lot of hardworking, smart people, and 62 00:03:38,360 --> 00:03:42,920 Speaker 3: they now mobilize and fighting. I think, so second, you 63 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:46,640 Speaker 3: give them permission to fight inside Russia. Third, you apply 64 00:03:47,080 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 3: very severe sanctions on particularly sale of oil, which is 65 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,720 Speaker 3: their only currency that they generated, any hard currency. And fourth, 66 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 3: I would start picking up all of the ships that 67 00:03:58,560 --> 00:04:02,000 Speaker 3: are carrying illegal oil and just literally let it be 68 00:04:02,040 --> 00:04:04,320 Speaker 3: known worldwide. You know, if you if you own a 69 00:04:04,360 --> 00:04:07,400 Speaker 3: ship and you use it to carry Russian oil, you're 70 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:10,120 Speaker 3: going to lose the ship and we're gonna We're gonna 71 00:04:10,160 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 3: basically impound it forever. And at that point, his method 72 00:04:14,320 --> 00:04:18,680 Speaker 3: of hiding from the sanctions collapses, his ability to sell 73 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:20,280 Speaker 3: within the sanctions collapses. 74 00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:20,840 Speaker 1: Uh. 75 00:04:20,960 --> 00:04:22,920 Speaker 3: And then the other thing I would do, which has 76 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 3: some legal implications, but I'm a historian, not a lawyer, 77 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:28,560 Speaker 3: so I don't worry about that, is I would take 78 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 3: the three hundred billion that is impounded in the West 79 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:33,520 Speaker 3: of Russian money, I give it all to Ukraine. 80 00:04:34,560 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 1: What has been the reticence of That's what I mean. 81 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,359 Speaker 1: It's interesting that Trump didn't move more aggressively to do that, 82 00:04:40,520 --> 00:04:42,720 Speaker 1: or is it part of a tactical negotiation? 83 00:04:43,120 --> 00:04:46,279 Speaker 3: State Departminent Treasury will tell you there are all sorts 84 00:04:46,279 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 3: of complicated questions about doing that, to which my answer, 85 00:04:51,000 --> 00:04:55,920 Speaker 3: in the Franklin Roosevelt tradition is fine, let them fight 86 00:04:55,960 --> 00:04:57,679 Speaker 3: it out in court. Take the money. 87 00:04:58,680 --> 00:05:01,320 Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Well, that's a perfect segue into your 88 00:05:01,360 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 1: new book, Trump's Triumph, because I think a lot of 89 00:05:03,920 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 1: that is sort of reflected, sort of this notion of 90 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: action and moving beyond process and having a more entrepreneurial 91 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:15,440 Speaker 1: mindset in terms of governance, et cetera. But let's frame 92 00:05:15,480 --> 00:05:19,000 Speaker 1: this book. This book comes out on June third, it's 93 00:05:19,000 --> 00:05:21,919 Speaker 1: your how many, mister speakers, Seriously, how many books have 94 00:05:21,960 --> 00:05:22,400 Speaker 1: you written? 95 00:05:23,040 --> 00:05:27,280 Speaker 3: Well, I'm told forty four. So are you? 96 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: And you're you're writing all these books. You actually write 97 00:05:30,839 --> 00:05:32,720 Speaker 1: these books. 98 00:05:31,680 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 3: You have help, but I write all these books. 99 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,720 Speaker 1: And this one unsurprising that you'd come out with a 100 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,520 Speaker 1: book about Trump's triumphs, but you But what surprised me 101 00:05:42,560 --> 00:05:45,360 Speaker 1: a little bit is this notion that you place them 102 00:05:45,400 --> 00:05:48,960 Speaker 1: as one of the five giants up there with Jackson 103 00:05:49,160 --> 00:05:54,320 Speaker 1: and Jefferson and people like Lincoln and Fdr himself. I mean, 104 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,520 Speaker 1: is that your your current belief or is that one 105 00:05:57,560 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: that reflects. 106 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 3: I believe that since the summer of twenty fifteen, because 107 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:12,080 Speaker 3: I watched him do two things that were kind of amazing. 108 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:18,280 Speaker 3: One was tap into the deeply felt emotions of at 109 00:06:18,360 --> 00:06:21,640 Speaker 3: least half the country and particularly and this is one 110 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,039 Speaker 3: of the great ironies that I know you're wrestling with 111 00:06:24,080 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 3: and I've heard you talk about it. You know, we're 112 00:06:26,360 --> 00:06:28,840 Speaker 3: having this switch of which party is the working class 113 00:06:28,880 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 3: party and which party is the elite party. Well, Trump 114 00:06:33,839 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 3: intuited this, and people forget he had thirteen years of 115 00:06:37,760 --> 00:06:42,160 Speaker 3: doing The Apprentice at NBC. He was a natural salesman 116 00:06:42,360 --> 00:06:46,520 Speaker 3: and a natural showman, so his instinct was to go 117 00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 3: right for the blue collar worker. And he did two things. 118 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:55,720 Speaker 3: In August of twenty fifteen. Vince Haley, who's now the 119 00:06:56,240 --> 00:07:00,480 Speaker 3: Domestic Policy director at that time, was working with us, 120 00:07:00,800 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 3: and he walked in one day in August and said, 121 00:07:03,120 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 3: you have to see the c SPAN coverage of Trump 122 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 3: in Arizona because Trump is talking about illegal immigration. And 123 00:07:12,600 --> 00:07:15,640 Speaker 3: then he invites the father of a young man who's 124 00:07:15,680 --> 00:07:19,240 Speaker 3: been killed to come up on stage. And then Trump 125 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:22,640 Speaker 3: steps way back and allows this guy to have like 126 00:07:22,680 --> 00:07:27,160 Speaker 3: five or ten minutes on stage. Was a willingness to 127 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:30,560 Speaker 3: give up the spotlight that most people watch Trump will 128 00:07:30,560 --> 00:07:34,520 Speaker 3: thinks not likely and that most politicians would find very 129 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 3: scary to give control of the microphone to this person. 130 00:07:38,480 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 3: And I watched the dynamics of that. And then you 131 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,960 Speaker 3: may remember the very first debate Chlis and I were 132 00:07:46,960 --> 00:07:50,400 Speaker 3: watching in our living room and there was the one 133 00:07:50,400 --> 00:07:54,240 Speaker 3: where he got this really nasty, embarrassingly personal. 134 00:07:53,960 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: Fight and was this the Megan Kelly Kelly? 135 00:07:59,640 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 2: I mean, it was just it was kind of like, ooh, 136 00:08:02,040 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 2: I don't yeah, nothing about them. 137 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,920 Speaker 1: I thought that was it. I thought it was over. 138 00:08:08,360 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 3: They were racing to the bottom, and I think he 139 00:08:10,800 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 3: got there first. And which is a line actually that 140 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:20,440 Speaker 3: a year later somebody would use to describe the fight 141 00:08:20,480 --> 00:08:23,160 Speaker 3: with Hillary in the last month that she was going 142 00:08:23,160 --> 00:08:24,800 Speaker 3: towards the bottom, but we thought we could beat her 143 00:08:24,800 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 3: to it. So so anyway, so we watched this debate 144 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:33,679 Speaker 3: and everybody, mean Frank once had a focus group. They 145 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:36,760 Speaker 3: all thought Trump had lost. Everybody, like you know, everybody 146 00:08:36,760 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 3: at our level thought Trump had lost. Watching these various 147 00:08:40,760 --> 00:08:44,559 Speaker 3: online things and he's at seventy and eighty percent out 148 00:08:44,600 --> 00:08:47,880 Speaker 3: of sixteen, and I'm thinking, I wait a second, that 149 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:53,400 Speaker 3: there's a mismatch here between everyday Americans and the elites 150 00:08:53,480 --> 00:08:56,400 Speaker 3: on a grant, on a giant scale. And at that 151 00:08:56,480 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 3: point I decided that what you had was a phenomenon 152 00:09:00,679 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 3: who had somehow tapped into a core desire of the 153 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:11,679 Speaker 3: American people that they wanted to have a leader who 154 00:09:11,720 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 3: would profoundly change Washington. And in Trump you had somebody who, 155 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:22,480 Speaker 3: by personality and by background, was pretty enthusiastic. I mean, 156 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 3: he's always wanted to be a person of consequence, and 157 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 3: you know, if you're the guy who breaks up the 158 00:09:29,640 --> 00:09:33,320 Speaker 3: Rooseveltian system after ninety years, you get to be a 159 00:09:33,320 --> 00:09:39,320 Speaker 3: person of consequence. And so it fit what his particular 160 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 3: half of the country wants, it fit what I think 161 00:09:41,640 --> 00:09:45,120 Speaker 3: is a historic necessity as a conservative, a political leader, 162 00:09:45,800 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 3: and it fit you know, his personal desire to have 163 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 3: a prime he wondered. And it's very interesting to think 164 00:09:51,960 --> 00:09:53,839 Speaker 3: back to this in terms of the politicians you've known. 165 00:09:54,360 --> 00:10:00,439 Speaker 3: His slogan wasn't Trump. His slogan was make America great again. 166 00:10:00,760 --> 00:10:04,920 Speaker 3: So he was picking a topic bigger than himself within 167 00:10:05,040 --> 00:10:10,880 Speaker 3: what he could grow. And I think after surviving the 168 00:10:10,920 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 3: two assassination attempts, he really personally believes that God spared 169 00:10:16,280 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 3: his life for the purpose of actually achieving that. So 170 00:10:20,040 --> 00:10:22,280 Speaker 3: I would My point is not whether you like him 171 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:23,680 Speaker 3: or just like him, but if you look at the 172 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 3: great change agents, they really are. Jefferson Jackson, Lincoln and FDR. 173 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:32,320 Speaker 3: And I think there's a fifty to fifty chance. It's 174 00:10:32,400 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 3: not a certainty yet. And I've told him, you know, 175 00:10:36,400 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 3: all he did was he earned a ticket to the dance. Now, 176 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,280 Speaker 3: if he dances well enough and he wins the twenty 177 00:10:44,320 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 3: sixth election, then I'll learn a ticket to winning the 178 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:51,680 Speaker 3: twenty eight election. And then which will probably be JD. 179 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 3: Vans on our side. And if we get the Trump 180 00:10:54,320 --> 00:10:57,000 Speaker 3: vice president's only forty years old. If we get the 181 00:10:57,000 --> 00:11:00,240 Speaker 3: Trump vice president on top of the Trump president, see, 182 00:11:00,640 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 3: then he will be in a league with those guys. 183 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: We're going to get to that, and we'll get to 184 00:11:05,080 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: twenty six in a second. But I want to go 185 00:11:07,000 --> 00:11:07,719 Speaker 1: back a little bit. 186 00:11:07,800 --> 00:11:12,880 Speaker 2: I'm not doing your show, Fish, and by the way, 187 00:11:13,160 --> 00:11:14,439 Speaker 2: you only thinking about it. 188 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 1: No, All I want to say is I'm grateful you're here. 189 00:11:17,440 --> 00:11:19,000 Speaker 1: This is a hell of the thing that the two 190 00:11:19,000 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: of us are having this conversation. So take me back. 191 00:11:21,559 --> 00:11:24,079 Speaker 1: It's interesting, you know, and you're absolutely right, and I 192 00:11:24,120 --> 00:11:25,920 Speaker 1: appreciate because we had Frank Lunz on and I want 193 00:11:25,960 --> 00:11:28,000 Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about what Frank talked about 194 00:11:28,040 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 1: in a minute a little bit going back the contract 195 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,120 Speaker 1: with America, et cetera. But Frank made that point about 196 00:11:33,120 --> 00:11:36,480 Speaker 1: those focus groups. But I want to I'm curious your 197 00:11:36,559 --> 00:11:38,800 Speaker 1: point of view. Then with Trump. You must have known 198 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,719 Speaker 1: him tangentially. But you were the leader of the as 199 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: you said yourself a second ago, conservative movement. Here's a 200 00:11:45,240 --> 00:11:48,360 Speaker 1: former Democrat, kind of all over the place, no strong 201 00:11:48,400 --> 00:11:52,440 Speaker 1: ideological mornings necessarily. I mean, you must have been pretty 202 00:11:52,520 --> 00:11:57,160 Speaker 1: distrustful early on. Were you of Donald Trump? You weren't, 203 00:11:57,840 --> 00:11:58,080 Speaker 1: for sure. 204 00:11:58,120 --> 00:12:00,080 Speaker 3: I've known Trump for a quarter century. 205 00:11:59,760 --> 00:12:03,319 Speaker 1: Right, Uh, politics, though he wasn't always a line. 206 00:12:03,800 --> 00:12:06,000 Speaker 3: I knew him back when he's a businessman. He was 207 00:12:06,000 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 3: a very noisy businessman. And I'd read his two books, 208 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,640 Speaker 3: which I'd recommend everybody. If you want to understand Trump, 209 00:12:14,720 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 3: you read The Art of the Deal and The Art 210 00:12:15,920 --> 00:12:18,640 Speaker 3: of the Comeback. Comebacks the more important of the. 211 00:12:18,640 --> 00:12:22,720 Speaker 1: Two, because it opens up with some very telling lines. 212 00:12:23,240 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 3: It's amazing. He opens up with, Uh, my property in 213 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:31,679 Speaker 3: Atlantic City's losing money. The economy is going down because 214 00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:35,600 Speaker 3: of Iraq. I'm nine hundred million dollars in debt personally 215 00:12:35,679 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 3: to the banks, and my wife just called and said, 216 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:40,200 Speaker 3: you wanted a divorce. And he has this great line. 217 00:12:40,200 --> 00:12:43,400 Speaker 3: He says, this is the moment you either get depressed 218 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,920 Speaker 3: or you plan a comeback. This book is about that, 219 00:12:46,960 --> 00:12:49,920 Speaker 3: which also tells you a lot about how he survived 220 00:12:49,960 --> 00:12:50,839 Speaker 3: the last four years. 221 00:12:51,200 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: That's right. 222 00:12:52,000 --> 00:12:54,200 Speaker 3: This is a guy who's resilient on a scale that 223 00:12:54,600 --> 00:12:57,199 Speaker 3: is historic. We first talked with him Pliston and I 224 00:12:57,240 --> 00:12:59,840 Speaker 3: had breakfast with him in Des Moines, in all places, 225 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:04,319 Speaker 3: in February of twenty fifteen, and we talked about running 226 00:13:04,360 --> 00:13:07,360 Speaker 3: for president because we'd run in twelve and learned the 227 00:13:07,400 --> 00:13:10,120 Speaker 3: hard way that if the other guy has many millions 228 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 3: more than you bet on the money. But I learned 229 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:15,240 Speaker 3: a lot of out running for president. 230 00:13:15,400 --> 00:13:18,200 Speaker 1: Even though you won easily by any objective measure, you 231 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:19,760 Speaker 1: want all those NAMN debates. 232 00:13:19,559 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 2: At least enough TV, the ads cout on do the debates. 233 00:13:25,200 --> 00:13:28,480 Speaker 3: For me. It was a wonderful learning experience, and I 234 00:13:28,520 --> 00:13:31,680 Speaker 3: think in my willingness to take on the news media 235 00:13:31,760 --> 00:13:35,280 Speaker 3: head on, I was probably a forerunner for Trump's invention 236 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 3: of fake pop news. Well, we talked at length about 237 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 3: running and it was very interesting, and you could tell 238 00:13:44,000 --> 00:13:47,280 Speaker 3: that he had now moved from that would be an 239 00:13:47,280 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 3: interesting thing to kind of a businessman thinking through what 240 00:13:51,200 --> 00:13:53,040 Speaker 3: would it take, how much would it cost, how would 241 00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 3: you structure it? And so I watched his development all 242 00:13:56,880 --> 00:14:02,040 Speaker 3: through fifteen, and I I wasn't particularly pro Trump at 243 00:14:02,040 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 3: that point, right, Frankly, if you remember, Jeb Bush was 244 00:14:07,440 --> 00:14:10,440 Speaker 3: the front runner, He had the most. 245 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:13,319 Speaker 1: Money, hundred million in a pack, he had his father and. 246 00:14:13,280 --> 00:14:18,640 Speaker 3: His brother, he had nationwide name mighty, and watching Trump 247 00:14:19,640 --> 00:14:24,400 Speaker 3: psychologically take him apart low energy the case study, well, 248 00:14:24,720 --> 00:14:27,840 Speaker 3: he got so far inside Jeb's head. The Jeb is 249 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 3: running around New Hampshire in shorts jogging. Now the average 250 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:36,680 Speaker 3: New Hampshire writing regards the idea of a presidential candidate 251 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 3: who's jogging has disqualification on ground just automatically, which which 252 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 3: was really unfortunate. Jeb's actually was a very good reform 253 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:50,520 Speaker 3: governor of Florida. But Trump just had this ability to 254 00:14:50,640 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 3: somehow set the stage where you couldn't win. 255 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:55,160 Speaker 2: Uh. 256 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:58,520 Speaker 3: And it's a it's a very unusual capability. 257 00:15:04,360 --> 00:15:07,320 Speaker 1: So it's interesting. So I appreciate in twenty fifteen you started, 258 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,480 Speaker 1: I mean there was sort of the dance of sort 259 00:15:09,480 --> 00:15:12,560 Speaker 1: of developing more of this formal relationship as it relates 260 00:15:12,600 --> 00:15:15,560 Speaker 1: to the political and said, did you find him particularly 261 00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:20,600 Speaker 1: policy driven then was he inquisitive in terms of tactics policy. 262 00:15:20,960 --> 00:15:24,640 Speaker 3: Look, he's talking about tariffs forty years ago. Yeah, true, 263 00:15:24,840 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 3: talking about immigration, I mean the whole He's talking about 264 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 3: the corruption of washermen. There are some basic themes. But 265 00:15:30,760 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 3: what I was going to say, though, is, and this 266 00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,880 Speaker 3: may help you understand where I'm coming from. Trump is 267 00:15:35,920 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 3: not a conservative, right. Trump is the best anti liberal 268 00:15:41,200 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 3: politician in my lifetime, better than Reagan. Reagan was the 269 00:15:45,680 --> 00:15:49,240 Speaker 3: great conservative articulator. I sort of stood on his shoulders 270 00:15:49,240 --> 00:15:51,840 Speaker 3: with the Contract with America, and we came out of 271 00:15:51,880 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 3: a formed philosophical background. Trump understands that the current doesn't 272 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,880 Speaker 3: work and that the woke phase of the American left 273 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:09,520 Speaker 3: is totally destructive of the American system. This is my view, obviously, 274 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 3: and therefore he is prepared to fight everybody I want 275 00:16:14,720 --> 00:16:17,880 Speaker 3: to fight. Now. The fact that he doesn't read Bill 276 00:16:17,920 --> 00:16:22,400 Speaker 3: Buckley and he doesn't have a National Review subscription, I 277 00:16:22,400 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 3: don't care because I know that instinctively he'll get up 278 00:16:25,800 --> 00:16:28,520 Speaker 3: every morning and think, you know what part of the 279 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:31,200 Speaker 3: left can I take apart today? And one day it'll 280 00:16:31,200 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 3: be Harvard, and another day will be The New York Times, 281 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:36,960 Speaker 3: and another day it'll be some bureaucracy, but every day 282 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:41,440 Speaker 3: he will cheerfully go out and engage and tear apart 283 00:16:41,760 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 3: the people who I think need to be torn apart. 284 00:16:44,160 --> 00:16:48,760 Speaker 3: So I'm very happy to have a non conservative, anti liberal, 285 00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:53,080 Speaker 3: entrepreneurial activist with all the skills of a great businessman. 286 00:16:53,560 --> 00:16:56,160 Speaker 1: Well so, at peril, I jump right into the book 287 00:16:56,200 --> 00:16:59,160 Speaker 1: and get chapters and chapters ahead. He's also taking on 288 00:16:59,240 --> 00:17:02,280 Speaker 1: things that you've champion. I mean, you've highlighted in the 289 00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 1: book the importance of of genomics and synthetic biology and 290 00:17:07,080 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: discovery and invest you know in R and D, the 291 00:17:11,160 --> 00:17:15,199 Speaker 1: issues obviously with DARPA, et cetera. I mean, how concerned, 292 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,480 Speaker 1: including by the way, you just did a documentary with 293 00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:21,000 Speaker 1: your wife on of all things, four letter word for 294 00:17:21,119 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: some of your friends PBS. Very proud PVS to me, 295 00:17:26,200 --> 00:17:29,560 Speaker 1: but on journey to America on immigration, and so I'm 296 00:17:29,600 --> 00:17:33,040 Speaker 1: curious just that tension. I get this sort of owning 297 00:17:33,080 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: the lib and liberalism more broadly defined. But where do 298 00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:38,520 Speaker 1: you are you? Where are you in this. 299 00:17:38,520 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 3: Sort of I think I think when everything shakes out, 300 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:49,360 Speaker 3: let's start with immigration. Trump is as pro legal immigration 301 00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:54,320 Speaker 3: as he is anti illegal immigration. I mean, two of 302 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 3: his wives are foreign born. His mother came from Scotland. Uh, 303 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:01,120 Speaker 3: you know he he's not going to jump up and down. 304 00:18:01,160 --> 00:18:03,159 Speaker 3: And he has said openly, I mean he's come up 305 00:18:03,160 --> 00:18:05,919 Speaker 3: with this idea of this five million dollar you know, 306 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:07,359 Speaker 3: avenue to America. 307 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:08,640 Speaker 1: What happened to that? 308 00:18:09,320 --> 00:18:13,639 Speaker 3: Well, I suspect it will be implemented. He wants the money. 309 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:16,680 Speaker 3: I'm not sure his calculations are right. 310 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:18,679 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, that's a little generous. 311 00:18:19,200 --> 00:18:21,160 Speaker 3: Enough people show up to make it a big deal. 312 00:18:21,200 --> 00:18:25,400 Speaker 3: But Canada and other countries have had very similar, smaller 313 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:33,920 Speaker 3: scale example proudgets. There's no question that the most aggressive 314 00:18:34,200 --> 00:18:37,359 Speaker 3: pieces of the Trump coalition would do things that I 315 00:18:37,359 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 3: would regard as destructive. There's also no question if you 316 00:18:41,640 --> 00:18:43,920 Speaker 3: look at, for example, the caliber of the people he's 317 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,320 Speaker 3: appointed at the Center for Disease Control or for the 318 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:51,359 Speaker 3: National Institute of Health. These are very smart, very senior people. 319 00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,520 Speaker 3: And and I just had a conversation with the new 320 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,399 Speaker 3: head of NIH, who clearly wants to clean out the underbrush. 321 00:18:59,760 --> 00:19:02,320 Speaker 3: But and I say this as a guy who, while 322 00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:05,560 Speaker 3: balancing the federal budget for four years in a row, 323 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,359 Speaker 3: the only time in one hundred years, we doubled the 324 00:19:08,400 --> 00:19:13,159 Speaker 3: size of nih Well balancing the budget so deeply in science. 325 00:19:13,320 --> 00:19:15,680 Speaker 3: But I'll also tell you it's now a big It 326 00:19:15,800 --> 00:19:19,879 Speaker 3: kept growing. So what we doubled was the baseline from 327 00:19:19,880 --> 00:19:22,680 Speaker 3: which it just kept growing. And it's a big bureaucratic 328 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 3: system with a lot of ballogne. I mean, when you're 329 00:19:25,240 --> 00:19:30,240 Speaker 3: paying sixty five percent more than the grant so that 330 00:19:30,400 --> 00:19:34,440 Speaker 3: Harvard or Stanford or somebody can pay for overhead, there's 331 00:19:34,480 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 3: a lot you can do that doesn't hurt genuine reform. 332 00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:39,720 Speaker 3: You also have a big problem which I don't know 333 00:19:39,720 --> 00:19:41,879 Speaker 3: how they're going to solve, and that is they've gotten 334 00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,240 Speaker 3: into this ropidope system where people will file for a 335 00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 3: research project, not reach the conclusion because they've already filed 336 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,439 Speaker 3: for continuing and if they reached the conclusion, they have 337 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:55,920 Speaker 3: to go out and find a whole new topic. That's 338 00:19:56,640 --> 00:20:00,879 Speaker 3: a fair amount of stating down research by your rocratizing it. 339 00:20:01,359 --> 00:20:03,600 Speaker 3: So I mean, I'm passionate about this stuff. I'll give 340 00:20:03,600 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 3: you one other example. I am totally committed to space. 341 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:10,760 Speaker 3: I have been since in nineteen eighty one, I introduced 342 00:20:10,760 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 3: the Northwest Ordinance for the Moon, saying that if you 343 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,879 Speaker 3: got to a certain population, you could apply for statehood, 344 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 3: which at that time people thought was nuts. Now they 345 00:20:19,359 --> 00:20:21,080 Speaker 3: still think it's nuts, but not quite as nuts. 346 00:20:21,160 --> 00:20:23,479 Speaker 1: I remember you in the debates talking about space and 347 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:25,959 Speaker 1: we were wondering what the you know, you were on 348 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:29,520 Speaker 1: the edge there, so you have been you consistent. 349 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 3: I'm just glad that Elon came along and maybe doable. 350 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:36,119 Speaker 3: And I'll give you an example. When the starship actually 351 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:39,800 Speaker 3: gets settled down and works properly, it has thirty three engines, 352 00:20:40,200 --> 00:20:43,600 Speaker 3: it produces two point three times as much thrust as 353 00:20:43,640 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 3: the Saturn five the rocket went to the Moon two 354 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,200 Speaker 3: point three times as much. So your choice is to 355 00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,199 Speaker 3: go with the traditional NASA spend an amazing amount of 356 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 3: money and maybe get two people in the surface of 357 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:57,800 Speaker 3: the moon. Or this thing will lift one hundred people 358 00:20:58,240 --> 00:21:02,440 Speaker 3: or one hundred and fifty tons, so you could put 359 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:05,400 Speaker 3: fifty to seventy people on the Moon in one bite. 360 00:21:05,480 --> 00:21:06,800 Speaker 3: I mean, just boom. 361 00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:11,960 Speaker 1: But to your point, that requires ns It requires all 362 00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: of the innovation and entrepreneurs I mean, it requires research institutions, 363 00:21:16,359 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 1: It requires presumably institutions of higher learning as well. Are 364 00:21:19,960 --> 00:21:23,760 Speaker 1: you concerned about what's happening in terms of those partnerships? 365 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:26,639 Speaker 1: I mean, just I think about Sandia Labs, Lawrence Livermore Labs, 366 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:29,320 Speaker 1: I think about all the R and D that's happening 367 00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: with military and obviously with academia. I mean, you're concerned 368 00:21:33,760 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 1: that there's a recklessness. I appreciate solving for issues of 369 00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: some abuse or some inefficiencies, but there seems to be 370 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,880 Speaker 1: a blunt approach. 371 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:47,600 Speaker 3: Now, first of all, I think there is. As a historian, 372 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,919 Speaker 3: I would argue that when you try to make change 373 00:21:50,920 --> 00:21:55,080 Speaker 3: on this scale, you're going to have very sloppy margins. 374 00:21:56,040 --> 00:22:00,600 Speaker 3: You cannot move slow enough to be careful or the 375 00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 3: old order will surround you and drown you. Here here 376 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,119 Speaker 3: you have you have to be, which means you're going 377 00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:07,920 Speaker 3: to make mistakes and you're going to screw things up. 378 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 3: You got to go back and fix them. At the 379 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:13,320 Speaker 3: same time, I would say, uh, I really I worry 380 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:17,879 Speaker 3: about our greatest universities. Partially I suspect the opposite of 381 00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 3: your view, which is partially I think they're so left 382 00:22:20,440 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 3: wing now that they're virtually to tolitarian, and that they 383 00:22:24,280 --> 00:22:27,720 Speaker 3: create a group think that is really destructive. And yet 384 00:22:28,040 --> 00:22:31,439 Speaker 3: at one point, just a generation ago, these were the 385 00:22:31,480 --> 00:22:35,120 Speaker 3: greatest centers of learning, on the planet. Uh, And it 386 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 3: does worry me. How how do you how do you 387 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:39,879 Speaker 3: keep the best of Harvard or the best of MI 388 00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 3: I T or the best of Stanford or Berkeley? Uh, 389 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 3: without well at the same time taking head on the 390 00:22:46,680 --> 00:22:50,879 Speaker 3: kind of ideological group think that has become literally almost 391 00:22:50,960 --> 00:22:55,200 Speaker 3: to tolitarian in its unwillingness to have any competition of ideas. 392 00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:58,560 Speaker 3: And I think that's a real challenge and we don't 393 00:22:58,920 --> 00:23:00,479 Speaker 3: truth is, we don't have a good answer. 394 00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:03,600 Speaker 1: No, I mean, how do you square that circle? Specifically 395 00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,359 Speaker 1: on this notion of the journey to America? And I 396 00:23:06,400 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: want to talk to about the timing of that. And 397 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: by the way, congratulations ninety minute documentary on PBS that's 398 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 1: really a love letter to absorbing the best and the 399 00:23:15,000 --> 00:23:17,159 Speaker 1: brightest and who we are as America in the spirit 400 00:23:17,480 --> 00:23:21,120 Speaker 1: of Reagan. You talked about the life force of new Americans, 401 00:23:21,640 --> 00:23:24,440 Speaker 1: that language evocative of who we are. But now we're 402 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,080 Speaker 1: starting to talk about twenty seven percent of the student 403 00:23:27,080 --> 00:23:30,880 Speaker 1: body as international at Harvard, and you're basically saying now 404 00:23:31,200 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 1: you don't need to apply, and they're opening up their 405 00:23:33,720 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 1: arms and their wallets in places like China. How do 406 00:23:37,240 --> 00:23:37,920 Speaker 1: we square that? 407 00:23:39,600 --> 00:23:45,920 Speaker 3: I think it's very hard. I think that there are 408 00:23:45,920 --> 00:23:50,680 Speaker 3: two conflicting things going on, and we don't talk about 409 00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:54,160 Speaker 3: them very honestly. I think what's happened in much of Europe, 410 00:23:54,920 --> 00:23:59,760 Speaker 3: where the culture is literally being drowned, should be a 411 00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:03,000 Speaker 3: much greater alarm, and it's something you can't even talk about. 412 00:24:03,600 --> 00:24:08,160 Speaker 3: But if you look at places in Britain or France, 413 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 3: or Sweden or neighborhoods and Brussels, you're seeing basically the 414 00:24:14,520 --> 00:24:18,199 Speaker 3: end of Western civilization. So on the one hand, you 415 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:23,040 Speaker 3: have to say, are there legitimate concerns about who comes 416 00:24:23,040 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 3: here and why they come here? The other side of 417 00:24:25,480 --> 00:24:29,320 Speaker 3: that is with the Chinese. A very great deal of 418 00:24:29,400 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 3: China's technological advance has come from American universities, where Chinese 419 00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:36,240 Speaker 3: students come, learn a heck of a lot and go 420 00:24:36,320 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 3: back home. And if China is our biggest competitor, which 421 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,720 Speaker 3: I think may turn out to be exaggerated a decade 422 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:49,400 Speaker 3: from now, nonetheless, for planning purposes, they are our biggest competitor. 423 00:24:50,240 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 3: Do you really want cal Tech and MIT to be 424 00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:57,239 Speaker 3: providing the best Chinese scientists in the world so they 425 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:01,040 Speaker 3: can go back home? I those are topics that deserve 426 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:06,960 Speaker 3: a lot deeper and more conversation. And I think I'm 427 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:11,480 Speaker 3: perfectly happy to say that there will be pieces of 428 00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:15,280 Speaker 3: the Make America Great Again movement that are going to 429 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 3: have to go back and be fixed because they're going 430 00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,639 Speaker 3: to be destructive. Some of them are just playing going 431 00:25:19,680 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 3: to be wrong. I mean, I'm a very big advocate 432 00:25:23,040 --> 00:25:25,879 Speaker 3: for science. I wrote a piece recently on why we 433 00:25:25,920 --> 00:25:30,199 Speaker 3: should not cut science funding at NASA. For example. On 434 00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:33,000 Speaker 3: the one hand, I'm totally in favor of wiping out 435 00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:36,679 Speaker 3: the Space Launch System, which is stunningly expensive and has 436 00:25:36,720 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 3: accomplished nothing. And by the way, you could probably pay 437 00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:44,560 Speaker 3: for a decade of NASA science with the cost of 438 00:25:44,600 --> 00:25:49,199 Speaker 3: the Space Launch System, you know. So I think there 439 00:25:49,240 --> 00:25:51,640 Speaker 3: are ways that there are good things we should protect, 440 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:53,879 Speaker 3: and that's going to lead to fights, because you're going 441 00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:56,439 Speaker 3: to have some people who are clumsy or sloppy, or 442 00:25:56,440 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 3: who ideologically are pretty cheerful about being ignorant. 443 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:04,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, look, you you talk about Doge 444 00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:06,359 Speaker 1: in the book, you write about it rather and you 445 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: but you write about it very in laudatory terms, but 446 00:26:09,119 --> 00:26:11,640 Speaker 1: you make the point you just made as it relates 447 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:12,960 Speaker 1: to if you're going to move fast, you're going to 448 00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:16,399 Speaker 1: break some things. But this notion of iteration and time 449 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:20,320 Speaker 1: to move and speed. You you even highlight old Peter 450 00:26:20,440 --> 00:26:25,679 Speaker 1: Drucker talking about excellence and efficiency, which I appreciated, But 451 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,879 Speaker 1: I mean, what is your over under just you know, 452 00:26:28,000 --> 00:26:33,000 Speaker 1: doge in particular? Is it? You know, are you satisfied 453 00:26:33,280 --> 00:26:36,240 Speaker 1: with the two trillion dollars in savings? 454 00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 3: It will turn out to have at least two patterns. 455 00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,359 Speaker 3: One is more noise than achievement. Yeah, uh. And the 456 00:26:45,400 --> 00:26:49,600 Speaker 3: other is that it will have exposed for us a 457 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:51,719 Speaker 3: number of things that were going on that are kind 458 00:26:51,760 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 3: of astonishing. Uh. And that you you know, so on 459 00:26:55,200 --> 00:26:55,680 Speaker 3: the one. 460 00:26:55,520 --> 00:26:59,280 Speaker 1: Hand, condoms in Gaza, which you know turn out not 461 00:26:59,359 --> 00:27:00,000 Speaker 1: to be the case. 462 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 3: What do you mean? Well, for example, it's pretty clear 463 00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:05,880 Speaker 3: that I think at least ten percent of the UN 464 00:27:06,000 --> 00:27:08,920 Speaker 3: refugee workers in Gaza were pro Hamas. 465 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,680 Speaker 1: Oh that's separate, separate. I'm just I'm just I'm lamenting 466 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:16,440 Speaker 1: on the sort of Orwellian notion of fifty million dollars 467 00:27:16,520 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: of condoms, which the President reminded me of in the 468 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 1: Oval office, which I told him was not true. 469 00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,600 Speaker 3: And there's a good California, and I'm sure you fondly 470 00:27:24,640 --> 00:27:25,359 Speaker 3: remember Reagan. 471 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:30,360 Speaker 1: I do, by the way, speaker, I'm in his office 472 00:27:30,440 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 1: every day as a point of pride. 473 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,399 Speaker 3: That's well, that's right, I mean right there, right there 474 00:27:34,400 --> 00:27:37,520 Speaker 3: in the governorship. Yeah. Every once in a while, Reagan 475 00:27:37,560 --> 00:27:40,359 Speaker 3: would see something in the newspaper and it was click 476 00:27:40,400 --> 00:27:44,120 Speaker 3: in his head. I would repeat it endlessly. I see 477 00:27:44,119 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 3: where you're going, And now look there there's a great 478 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:53,320 Speaker 3: rookie who is a German poet once said, if you 479 00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:57,600 Speaker 3: drive away my demons, will my angels flee? Also, well, 480 00:27:57,840 --> 00:28:01,560 Speaker 3: talent's with the charismatic leader of Trump's power is there's 481 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,600 Speaker 3: five or ten percent where you go, really, and then 482 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 3: there's this other stuff that is amazing and historic, and 483 00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 3: you may not be able to separate the two. 484 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:13,080 Speaker 1: Yeah or yeah, I mean I may have a different 485 00:28:13,160 --> 00:28:17,720 Speaker 1: I'm maybe ninety ten of your flipped. 486 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:21,000 Speaker 3: That's one of the reason I wanted to do the 487 00:28:21,000 --> 00:28:24,679 Speaker 3: show with you. I remember when we talked about Citizenville. 488 00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, and all the ideas you had decade ago before 489 00:28:27,840 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 2: you ran. 490 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:29,679 Speaker 3: Into the Sacramento bureaucracy. 491 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:34,200 Speaker 2: God bless by the way, I still tell people that's 492 00:28:34,240 --> 00:28:35,480 Speaker 2: a really worthwhile book. 493 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,000 Speaker 1: I appreciate you for saying that. By the way, I 494 00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,320 Speaker 1: think so much. It's interesting. I reflected on that our 495 00:28:41,360 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: conversations and a little bit on that book. As reading 496 00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: your book, I mean, you talk about, you know, governing, 497 00:28:47,560 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: not just campaigning. You talk about issues around efficient and 498 00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: effective government and more novel and I think what's always 499 00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: interested me about you is your willingness to lean into 500 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:02,080 Speaker 1: the future and talk about healthcare differently than others, as 501 00:29:02,120 --> 00:29:06,160 Speaker 1: you did again here even highlighted my friend Dean Ornige 502 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: in terms of some of his work on wellness and prevention. 503 00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: These four p's. You talk about predictability and personalization in 504 00:29:13,920 --> 00:29:16,880 Speaker 1: the healthcare space, but you also take on other spaces 505 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,520 Speaker 1: which I appreciate as well, like the old Eisenhower frame 506 00:29:21,080 --> 00:29:24,520 Speaker 1: on the military industrial complex. And I'm curious, in relationship 507 00:29:24,560 --> 00:29:26,960 Speaker 1: to the DOGE question, why do you think there's been 508 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: so little willingness to enter into that space, even the 509 00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,360 Speaker 1: space launch example you just gave. 510 00:29:34,680 --> 00:29:39,040 Speaker 3: I think you know, I had one fight in the 511 00:29:39,080 --> 00:29:45,239 Speaker 3: first bushes of Trump's first term over HUAWEIH and what 512 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:50,480 Speaker 3: we needed to do to dramatically strengthen American telecommunications, and 513 00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:54,360 Speaker 3: it's the one fight that I clearly decisively lost, and 514 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:56,920 Speaker 3: I lost it because AT and T was on the 515 00:29:56,920 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 3: other side, and AT and T is so big, big, 516 00:30:01,080 --> 00:30:05,280 Speaker 3: contributes so much money as so many lobbyists by so 517 00:30:05,360 --> 00:30:09,360 Speaker 3: many TV ads that you know, I just just ran 518 00:30:09,400 --> 00:30:12,880 Speaker 3: over me. It was an exciting experience, but I felt 519 00:30:12,880 --> 00:30:15,240 Speaker 3: like a lot. I felt like the guy in Tanneman Square, 520 00:30:15,640 --> 00:30:19,680 Speaker 3: the tankage. So I started with that. I mean it is. 521 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:23,360 Speaker 3: I think the space launch system is one of the 522 00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 3: best examples of the sickness of the old order and 523 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 3: what Eisenhower did warn about. I mean, people should go 524 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,800 Speaker 3: back and read his farewell address because he's very clear, 525 00:30:32,800 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 3: and this guy had been a five star general commander 526 00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:39,080 Speaker 3: of Allied forces in Europe as well as president, so 527 00:30:39,120 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 3: he had pretty good knowledge and he's saying correctly. In 528 00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,920 Speaker 3: order to build a system big enough to defeat or 529 00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:52,440 Speaker 3: contain the Soviet Empire, you have to turn over so 530 00:30:52,560 --> 00:30:56,360 Speaker 3: much money and power to a bureaucracy which will then 531 00:30:56,480 --> 00:30:59,280 Speaker 3: hire a big corporations that you're going to have the 532 00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:03,600 Speaker 3: permanent danger that they grow together into sort of a 533 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 3: single organism which then operates for its own benefit. And 534 00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 3: that's an enormous problem across It's a problem in healthcare too. 535 00:31:12,160 --> 00:31:15,080 Speaker 3: I mean, big health in many ways is as bad 536 00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,600 Speaker 3: as Big Defense. And I'm working on a paper right 537 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 3: now which will amuse you when he finally comes out 538 00:31:22,280 --> 00:31:27,160 Speaker 3: talking about Trump time and Trump's savings and going back 539 00:31:27,200 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 3: to the skating rink in New York. Yeah, city had 540 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:36,120 Speaker 3: the rink had quit making ice, which makes it very 541 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 3: hard if your skating rink, and the city had for 542 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:42,440 Speaker 3: six years tried to fix it and spent thirteen million dollars. 543 00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,160 Speaker 3: Trump talks about this in his first in the book, 544 00:31:45,600 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 3: The Art of the Deal. 545 00:31:46,520 --> 00:31:48,200 Speaker 1: This is one of his great successes. 546 00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,600 Speaker 3: Yeah, objectively, and he says, you know, he's looking at 547 00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 3: his apartment, looks out over the rink, the woman rink, 548 00:31:54,520 --> 00:31:57,240 Speaker 3: and so he finally gets so pissed off at six 549 00:31:57,360 --> 00:32:01,200 Speaker 3: years they can't make ice, and he challenges the mayor 550 00:32:01,200 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 3: publicly and says, you give it to me, and I 551 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 3: will fix it in less than a year for under 552 00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,440 Speaker 3: three million dollars. Well, he fixed it in four months, 553 00:32:14,320 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 3: and we came in twenty five percent below budget, and 554 00:32:16,320 --> 00:32:19,280 Speaker 3: they already spent six and a half million. He came 555 00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,760 Speaker 3: in twenty five percent below the three million dollar budget, 556 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 3: totally fixed in four months. And in the book, is 557 00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 3: this great line where he says, they had this firm 558 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 3: in Florida that had won the contract and didn't know 559 00:32:31,240 --> 00:32:34,000 Speaker 3: what they were doing. And so I said to myself, 560 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 3: who builds skating rinks? I thought Canavan? I went, oh, 561 00:32:41,960 --> 00:32:44,680 Speaker 3: excuse me. So he goes to the National Hockey League 562 00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 3: and says, who builds the skating rinks? And this is 563 00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 3: firm in Montreal And they fly down and they look 564 00:32:51,040 --> 00:32:53,480 Speaker 3: at it and they go, this is really embarrassing. This 565 00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,440 Speaker 3: is so easy to fix, you can't believe it. And 566 00:32:56,480 --> 00:32:58,320 Speaker 3: when he finally got it done, somebody said what happened? 567 00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:03,320 Speaker 3: He said, it wasn't magic, it was common sense and management. Well, 568 00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:06,520 Speaker 3: to the degree that we could bring common sense and management, 569 00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 3: we would. I think you could get better defense for 570 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,640 Speaker 3: twenty five percent less than the current defense budget if 571 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,240 Speaker 3: you could clean out all the bureaucracy and all the 572 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,560 Speaker 3: cronyism and all the bad contracts. I tell every audience 573 00:33:23,920 --> 00:33:26,440 Speaker 3: if you took the Pentagon and turned it into a triangle, 574 00:33:27,560 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 3: and took the other two thirds and turned into a museum, 575 00:33:30,840 --> 00:33:34,640 Speaker 3: you would get a better defense system overnight. And the 576 00:33:34,680 --> 00:33:37,160 Speaker 3: reason simple. You'll understand. This is the governor of a 577 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,440 Speaker 3: state with a huge bureaucracy. They built the Pentagon in 578 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 3: nineteen forty three so that twenty six thousand people could 579 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:50,959 Speaker 3: manage World War two with carbon paper, manual typewriters and 580 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:55,840 Speaker 3: filing cabins, And in fact, Marshalls chief of staff, used 581 00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:58,680 Speaker 3: to run drills to see how fast you could find 582 00:33:58,680 --> 00:34:01,959 Speaker 3: paper if you needed a certain document, where is and 583 00:34:01,960 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 3: how do you get there? Well, everybody depending on now 584 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,319 Speaker 3: has a smartphone, an iPad, a laptop, computer, and I 585 00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:11,040 Speaker 3: have never gotten you. You might be able to get 586 00:34:11,040 --> 00:34:13,359 Speaker 3: somebody caltech to figure this out. I've never been able 587 00:34:13,400 --> 00:34:16,319 Speaker 3: to get an exchange rate. That is, if you have 588 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:20,200 Speaker 3: one person over here with a carbon paper distribution and 589 00:34:20,239 --> 00:34:23,000 Speaker 3: one person over here with the smartphone or an iPad 590 00:34:23,040 --> 00:34:26,959 Speaker 3: or computer, what's the relative exchange rate of information flow? 591 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:31,080 Speaker 3: My guess is it's above a million. Well, just one. 592 00:34:31,320 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 3: You have the same twenty six thousand people. Now, since 593 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,080 Speaker 3: they're not filing paper and they're not writing on carbon, 594 00:34:38,560 --> 00:34:41,719 Speaker 3: what they're doing is writing each other to prove that 595 00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 3: their job is important so they can stay employed. So 596 00:34:45,160 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 3: you screw up the whole system with the person A 597 00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:50,279 Speaker 3: writing person B who writes person see, who then writes 598 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,600 Speaker 3: person A and they beat these things to death, and 599 00:34:54,719 --> 00:34:56,600 Speaker 3: exactly the way New York City was failing with the 600 00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,319 Speaker 3: ice rate, because you have a bunch of bureaucrats who 601 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 3: write papers that have no meaning. And I think I 602 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:06,920 Speaker 3: helped found the Military Reform Caucus in eighty one. I 603 00:35:06,960 --> 00:35:10,719 Speaker 3: helped pass the Goldwater Nichols Reform in eighty six against 604 00:35:10,960 --> 00:35:16,160 Speaker 3: every active duty senior officer, none of them wanted it. Nowadays, 605 00:35:16,160 --> 00:35:19,800 Speaker 3: I'll tell you it's invaluable. We need a deep, thorough 606 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,920 Speaker 3: review of all of our national security, not just defense, 607 00:35:23,160 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 3: all of it. If we're going to compete in the 608 00:35:25,520 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 3: modern world. 609 00:35:32,080 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 1: It just seems of all things. And you know, I 610 00:35:34,840 --> 00:35:38,359 Speaker 1: appreciate the skating rate because is a reminder of under 611 00:35:38,400 --> 00:35:41,520 Speaker 1: promise over deliver. And we can talk about some of 612 00:35:41,520 --> 00:35:43,719 Speaker 1: those day one actions that Trump may or may not 613 00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:46,560 Speaker 1: have succeeded with in a moment. But I'm curious as 614 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:49,239 Speaker 1: it relates to the issues of the Pentagon. I mean, 615 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: Trump's been bold, and he's provided a lot of space 616 00:35:53,200 --> 00:35:57,120 Speaker 1: for Doge and certainly Musk in the last one hundred days, 617 00:35:57,520 --> 00:36:01,359 Speaker 1: but the Pentagon does seem to be off limits. I mean, 618 00:36:01,480 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 1: is that is. 619 00:36:02,360 --> 00:36:04,960 Speaker 3: That is that accurate? I don't think so. I think 620 00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:08,880 Speaker 3: I think they will presently be as ruthless as the 621 00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:10,560 Speaker 3: Pentagon as they will be anywhere else. 622 00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:15,279 Speaker 1: Interesting. F thirty five comes to mind? Huh, what F 623 00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:16,560 Speaker 1: thirty five comes to mind? 624 00:36:16,760 --> 00:36:19,880 Speaker 3: Actually, I've gotten real pushback on that because I was 625 00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:22,680 Speaker 3: one of the people who's really critical. Yeah, but three 626 00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 3: or four people who I'm writing this paper, and I 627 00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:29,839 Speaker 3: was talking about examples of cost overruns, and I've had 628 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:32,200 Speaker 3: three or four people who do not work for Lockheed, 629 00:36:32,239 --> 00:36:34,839 Speaker 3: aren't part of the system, but they're very smart right 630 00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:37,560 Speaker 3: back and say to me, that is an inaccurate measurement 631 00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:41,719 Speaker 3: that you actually look at the plane they have built. 632 00:36:42,040 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 3: It has no relationship to the original contract. It is 633 00:36:45,719 --> 00:36:49,320 Speaker 3: vastly superior, and the price has dropped now to about 634 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:52,319 Speaker 3: a reasonable price for a fifth generation fighter. I mean, 635 00:36:52,360 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 3: I was shocked. I took it out of my paper 636 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:56,839 Speaker 3: because there are too many people writing me back and saying, 637 00:36:56,960 --> 00:37:00,359 Speaker 3: so the other examples are terrific, this one's just dumb. 638 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,440 Speaker 3: It's not seconically right. It's interesting because I would have 639 00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:06,120 Speaker 3: a week ago I would have said to you exactly that. 640 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, no, it's sort of it's we throw that one around. Now. 641 00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:12,279 Speaker 3: I'm getting beaten up by people who know a lot 642 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:14,759 Speaker 3: more than I do, saying now, I have a lot 643 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,080 Speaker 3: of good examples in my paper, but that ain't want to. 644 00:37:17,040 --> 00:37:20,000 Speaker 1: Them, that ain't want them interesting. So all right, so 645 00:37:20,080 --> 00:37:22,400 Speaker 1: you'll you'll stipulate we should see some more. I mean, 646 00:37:22,440 --> 00:37:27,560 Speaker 1: obviously the Secretary of Defense has done some personnel moves, 647 00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:30,520 Speaker 1: et cetera, but they seem relatively modest compared to the 648 00:37:30,920 --> 00:37:33,840 Speaker 1: overall reforms that that you're advocating for. But you know, 649 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 1: one of the things I've struck in the book, and 650 00:37:35,880 --> 00:37:39,719 Speaker 1: again unsurprising, is it's been a consistent theme with you 651 00:37:40,160 --> 00:37:44,520 Speaker 1: is sort of anticipating the next war, not necessarily relitigating 652 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,120 Speaker 1: and reflecting exclusively on on the last one. And the 653 00:37:48,160 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: issues of electron electronic EMF issues are that you've been 654 00:37:52,360 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 1: sort of focused on issues a space in relationship to defense, 655 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:58,080 Speaker 1: et cetera. Talk to me a little bit about what 656 00:37:58,160 --> 00:38:01,120 Speaker 1: you sort of positive you least promote in this book 657 00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 1: as it relates to future security on national effects, I. 658 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:07,839 Speaker 3: Think there are three big things. The first is we 659 00:38:07,880 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 3: need to quit talking about war fighting and think about 660 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:15,279 Speaker 3: war winning. The fact that we have great taxical capabilities 661 00:38:15,280 --> 00:38:18,360 Speaker 3: and wonderfully courageous people who go for twenty one or 662 00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:21,279 Speaker 3: twenty two years in a place like Afghanistan and don't 663 00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:25,479 Speaker 3: win should bother us because war fighting is not the goal. 664 00:38:25,960 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 3: War winning is the goal. And as suns Sooo wrote, 665 00:38:28,520 --> 00:38:31,319 Speaker 3: the group find five hundred BC, the greatest of all 666 00:38:31,360 --> 00:38:35,720 Speaker 3: generals win bloodless victories. So you know, the the question 667 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:39,239 Speaker 3: is can America design a war winning series of strategies 668 00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 3: rather than a war fighting strategies. The second thing I 669 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:44,239 Speaker 3: would say is you have to look at all of 670 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:46,960 Speaker 3: national security. You mentioned, for example, the real threat of 671 00:38:46,960 --> 00:38:50,120 Speaker 3: electromagnetic pulse attack, and a very close friend of mine, 672 00:38:50,120 --> 00:38:54,280 Speaker 3: Go Fortune, wrote a remarkable novel called One Second After, 673 00:38:54,680 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 3: in which he shows you a village in North Carolina 674 00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,560 Speaker 3: after electricity has been cut off by an electromatic post. 675 00:39:01,719 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 3: I mean, it is a breathtaking book. He was actually 676 00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:07,360 Speaker 3: invited to Sandia. You'd mentioned Sandia Labs earlier. He was 677 00:39:07,400 --> 00:39:10,560 Speaker 3: invited there by the physicists who were grateful that somebody 678 00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:13,840 Speaker 3: could explain what they worried about, and thought his book 679 00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,799 Speaker 3: really was a very accurate projection. So you need to 680 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,759 Speaker 3: think about not just the Defense Department, but the totality 681 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:22,880 Speaker 3: of national security and then in the defense department itself, 682 00:39:23,800 --> 00:39:27,319 Speaker 3: I've beengun writing something which only occurred to me. By 683 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:36,480 Speaker 3: watching Ukraine. We are seeing an extraordinary change in the 684 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,439 Speaker 3: nature of warfare, and none of us understanding it. I'm 685 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:45,359 Speaker 3: actually going to write a paper on Podier, Crasie and Agincoreps, 686 00:39:45,719 --> 00:39:47,800 Speaker 3: which are the three great battles in the Middle Ages 687 00:39:48,080 --> 00:39:52,080 Speaker 3: where the British annihilate the French because the French cannot adjust. 688 00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:56,040 Speaker 3: They have to be armored knights. Their culture requires it. 689 00:39:56,320 --> 00:39:59,920 Speaker 3: And the British have developed a longbow which slaughters armored knight. 690 00:40:00,520 --> 00:40:03,840 Speaker 3: And that takes place over a century, and in that 691 00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:08,359 Speaker 3: entire period that a culture will not allow them to change. Well, 692 00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:11,719 Speaker 3: we may have a similar problem. We like big, expensive, 693 00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:16,719 Speaker 3: sophisticated long to develop long to field systems you're now 694 00:40:16,800 --> 00:40:18,719 Speaker 3: up against. As I said a while ago, I think 695 00:40:18,719 --> 00:40:21,759 Speaker 3: the numbers for next year are for this year for 696 00:40:22,200 --> 00:40:25,600 Speaker 3: Ukraine are going to be a million, five hundred thousand drums. Now, 697 00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,640 Speaker 3: most of them are small, most of them are simple. 698 00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:31,879 Speaker 3: Most of our guys would look down their nose at them. 699 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:35,839 Speaker 3: But Lord Nelson, who won the Battle of Trafalgar, set 700 00:40:35,840 --> 00:40:39,400 Speaker 3: a one point numbers annihilate and if you take the 701 00:40:39,440 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 3: combination of artificial intelligence, robotics, three D printing, new specialized 702 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,800 Speaker 3: kinds of chemistry. There's a firm in your state actually 703 00:40:50,080 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 3: called Divergent, which is probably the most advanced factory on 704 00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:56,080 Speaker 3: the planet, far ahead of anything in China, and they 705 00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,160 Speaker 3: use those techniques to be able to shift what they 706 00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,799 Speaker 3: make within a matter of hours. I mean, it's astonishing 707 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:06,080 Speaker 3: to visit them. And they're in La not far from 708 00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:11,319 Speaker 3: an in and out burger, and they I measure my 709 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:18,120 Speaker 3: trips to calig But anyway, when you when you start 710 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,960 Speaker 3: thinking about, for example, you don't just measure the Chinese 711 00:41:22,040 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 3: warship navy. All the Chinese merchant ships have been designed 712 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:31,879 Speaker 3: now for twenty years to be capable of launching drones. Well, 713 00:41:31,920 --> 00:41:33,480 Speaker 3: if I have a ship and it happens to have 714 00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,480 Speaker 3: forty drones on it, is that an aircraft carrier or 715 00:41:36,560 --> 00:41:40,160 Speaker 3: is that a merchant ship? And if I have eighteen 716 00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:43,520 Speaker 3: hundred of them, does that count as part of my 717 00:41:43,640 --> 00:41:48,359 Speaker 3: navy or is that just an auxiliary group? And how 718 00:41:48,400 --> 00:41:51,839 Speaker 3: many munitions does an American ship carry? And how many 719 00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:54,799 Speaker 3: drones can it stop? If the other guy's able to 720 00:41:54,800 --> 00:41:59,480 Speaker 3: send endless quantities, I'm just giving you a flavor. I 721 00:41:59,480 --> 00:42:01,440 Speaker 3: don't think we realize yet. You know, I talked to 722 00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 3: occasionally to the Amazon people about their use of robotics, 723 00:42:05,400 --> 00:42:07,120 Speaker 3: which is part of the reason they've been able to 724 00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:12,560 Speaker 3: be so amazing. We have no notion yet of how 725 00:42:12,760 --> 00:42:15,640 Speaker 3: fast the modern battlefield is going to become and how 726 00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:20,600 Speaker 3: complicated it's going to become. And our current bureaucracies, in 727 00:42:20,640 --> 00:42:24,560 Speaker 3: our current procurement system makes it very difficult to be 728 00:42:24,640 --> 00:42:31,640 Speaker 3: agile enough. And frankly, excuse me, the dominance of these 729 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:35,040 Speaker 3: big corporations, the Lockheeds, the Boeings, what have you read 730 00:42:35,080 --> 00:42:38,719 Speaker 3: you on makes it very hard to have the kind 731 00:42:38,760 --> 00:42:42,120 Speaker 3: of entrepreneurial change that you've seen in Silicon Valley for 732 00:42:42,160 --> 00:42:45,920 Speaker 3: your entire lifetime. You know, it's the small company today 733 00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:49,040 Speaker 3: that's the giant company in twenty years. And if you 734 00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:51,839 Speaker 3: can't grow the small companies because they can't get through 735 00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:55,440 Speaker 3: the Defense Department's paperwork, then you're not ever going to 736 00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,560 Speaker 3: have the rate and rhythm of innovation that you need. 737 00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:02,240 Speaker 1: No, And that's something you highlight sort of that framework 738 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:06,239 Speaker 1: of iteration, the sandbox and procurement reform, which is so 739 00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:09,680 Speaker 1: foundational and it's it's really it's about you know, it's 740 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:16,399 Speaker 1: the incumbency racket. You talk about incumbency capitalism versus innovation capitalism, 741 00:43:16,760 --> 00:43:20,080 Speaker 1: and that sort of innovation capitalism is a big part 742 00:43:20,160 --> 00:43:21,920 Speaker 1: of what we focus on and obviously I think is 743 00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,120 Speaker 1: part of the secret sauce to your point of Silicon Valley. 744 00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,120 Speaker 1: I'm curious just going back a little bit, and you know, 745 00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:30,680 Speaker 1: and we're bouncing around a little bit here, but again 746 00:43:30,719 --> 00:43:33,840 Speaker 1: back to timing, because Journey to America, you did it 747 00:43:33,840 --> 00:43:36,520 Speaker 1: with your wife, and you guys have done how many documentaries? Now, 748 00:43:36,520 --> 00:43:37,360 Speaker 1: you've done forty. 749 00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:41,880 Speaker 3: Four books'n we've done ten movies, and I've done forty 750 00:43:41,880 --> 00:43:45,239 Speaker 3: four books. She and I have done I think four 751 00:43:45,320 --> 00:43:49,799 Speaker 3: or five of them together. She wrote six children's books. Yeah, 752 00:43:49,840 --> 00:43:54,560 Speaker 3: about Elis the Elephant and American history. Yeah. Well, Peignaterton 753 00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:56,160 Speaker 3: because you know, she's a music major. She was a 754 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,920 Speaker 3: piano major, plays the French horn, spent twenty years in 755 00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:03,400 Speaker 3: a professional choir at the Basilica in Washington. Uh So 756 00:44:03,640 --> 00:44:06,440 Speaker 3: that's her natural background. Then she was a clerk in 757 00:44:06,480 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 3: the Agriculture Committee in the House. And she, you know, 758 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:13,040 Speaker 3: she works really hard. She works much harder than I do. 759 00:44:13,760 --> 00:44:15,880 Speaker 1: And tune in for the rest of the conversation with 760 00:44:16,000 --> 00:44:16,640 Speaker 1: New Gingrich