Speaker 1: Everyone. It's Josh and for this week's Select, I've chosen
Speaker 1: our two thousand nineteen episode on the actual law behind
Speaker 1: finders Keepers and exactly what happens when someone stumbles upon
Speaker 1: buried treasure or treasure accidentally dropped in a parking lot. Enjoy.
Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff You Should Know, a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio. Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh Clark,
Speaker 1: and there's Charles w Chuck Bryant, and there's Jerry over there.
Speaker 1: And this is Stuff you Should Know, the Finders Keepers
Speaker 1: Edition Losers Weepers. Yeah, I know, so, Chuck. This is like,
Speaker 1: this is an actual thing. It's not just like a
Speaker 1: child's fantasy. Like this is law in some places. And
Speaker 1: while it doesn't actually state losers weepers, I think it's implied.
Speaker 1: It's implicit in the law where the finder is the keeper,
Speaker 1: but you lost it, so you're legally obligated to weep
Speaker 1: in public. Yeah, and it's funny reading through some of
Speaker 1: these examples, it sounds like playground stuff. I'll say that
Speaker 1: I'll get to some of these. Some of these examples though,
Speaker 1: I'm like, man, that's not yours, Like, come on, give
Speaker 1: it up? Did you say that out loud to yourself.
Speaker 1: I did a couple of these. I was like, man, seriously, man,
Speaker 1: that's not yours, that's not yours. I'm just have a
Speaker 1: big justice thing, you know, So yeah, me too. It's
Speaker 1: when I see people acting like a big baby in
Speaker 1: saying like this money I found in my wall, this
Speaker 1: is mine, Like, no, it's not. Well, you would be
Speaker 1: a great arbitrator, Yeah, get out of here. It's not yours.
Speaker 1: You'd be like, my ruling is this man, that's not yours?
Speaker 1: Give it up. Uh. But no, let's start with John
Speaker 1: and Mary not their real names. No, No, I guess
Speaker 1: that's worth pointing out. These are anonymous, an anonymous husband
Speaker 1: and wife team from nor Cow. Yeah, from northern California.
Speaker 1: And they are anonymous because they didn't want a lot
Speaker 1: of attention. And they are still anonymous. We'll call him
Speaker 1: John and Mary. And they are famous. Uh. Well, I
Speaker 1: guess they're not famous, but their cases a little famous
Speaker 1: because they found ten million dollars and are you know
Speaker 1: what could be ten million dollars in rare gold coins
Speaker 1: buried on their property that they own on a walk
Speaker 1: and it's known as the Saddle Ridge Horde. Uh. In
Speaker 1: February two thirteen, they found this, Uh, these four hundred
Speaker 1: gold coins that no one knows who they belonged to,
Speaker 1: how they got buried there, but they found them and
Speaker 1: took a long time sort of coming out with this.
Speaker 1: They did about as smart as you possibly can. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they didn't rush to the press or anything and say
Speaker 1: look what we found. Uh. They took their time because
Speaker 1: I think they frightfully knew that they were onto something
Speaker 1: pretty special. Yeah. So they were out walking on on
Speaker 1: their property put that away for later with their dog,
Speaker 1: and they noticed, I guess, the side of a can
Speaker 1: coming out of the ground, and they went and dug
Speaker 1: it out, and sure enough, there was a bunch of
Speaker 1: gold coins in there. Whenever you see a can coming
Speaker 1: out of the ground, I mean, that's your hope and
Speaker 1: wish that it's going to be filled with gold coins
Speaker 1: or jewels or something, right, But it never happens, And
Speaker 1: it actually happened to these people. And so they went
Speaker 1: back again and again and again, and they ended up
Speaker 1: pulling eight cans filled with gold coins, pure gold coins,
Speaker 1: out of the ground on their property. And it became
Speaker 1: very apparent based on the state of preservation of the
Speaker 1: cans and the dates of the coins in the cans
Speaker 1: that somebody had buried this no more recently than the
Speaker 1: very beginning of the twentieth century and probably sometime in
Speaker 1: the late nineteenth century. Yeah, and here's a hint. If
Speaker 1: you ever happened to unearthed a whatever, a can or
Speaker 1: a glass jar or something full of money buried on
Speaker 1: your property, just keep digging. Yeah that maybe it, but
Speaker 1: maybe not. Yeah. I wondered, like, what kind of excavation
Speaker 1: they undertok points once they were like, oh, there's more there.
Speaker 1: I'm quite sure they cleared that ground. It's it's it's verified.
Speaker 1: There's no more cans. So if you're talking actual money,
Speaker 1: the face value it's about twenty seven grand. But because
Speaker 1: these are rare fines in great great condition, most of
Speaker 1: most of these coins, um, they're thinking that it could
Speaker 1: be worth as many as as much as ten million bucks.
Speaker 1: So they're gonna sell it. Well they have been and
Speaker 1: donate some of this money, and um, you know that
Speaker 1: it's nice that they're they're donating some of it, but
Speaker 1: it really sort of um opens up this question of hey,
Speaker 1: what is the law say about finding something period much
Speaker 1: less like on my property? Right? The finders keepers law
Speaker 1: basically is what you're talking about, and that's really what
Speaker 1: it's called in case laws, find the finders finders keepers
Speaker 1: laws or rules. That's right. So, um, there was a
Speaker 1: lot going on here. These guys, John and Mary owned
Speaker 1: the land that these coins were found on and that
Speaker 1: was a huge mark in their favor. Um, But they're
Speaker 1: in the United States. It really depends on what state
Speaker 1: you're in, what court you go to, what judge you
Speaker 1: happen to pull the case law on. It is so
Speaker 1: all over the place and so piecemeal that it's it's
Speaker 1: really almost the luck of the draw. And there are
Speaker 1: more things that you can do to compound your case
Speaker 1: to make it more likely that the the thing is
Speaker 1: is yours. But really it comes down to who has
Speaker 1: the best claim on whatever is found. Yeah, Like somebody
Speaker 1: could come forward Will probably or could have come forward
Speaker 1: with John and Marry and said, wait a minute, that
Speaker 1: was my great great grand Pappy Clark's land, and I'm
Speaker 1: sure he did not intend to clark you those gold coins. Uh,
Speaker 1: so like we actually should have a claim as his family,
Speaker 1: um to to to take this stuff from you, and
Speaker 1: like that could go that could very legitimately go to
Speaker 1: court to be decided by a judge. And again, like
Speaker 1: you said, it's who has the more legitimate claim. Um.
Speaker 1: What really helps them is, like you said, it was
Speaker 1: on their land and that it's super old, right exactly.
Speaker 1: So the fact that it's very, very old means that
Speaker 1: the person who buried them is probably dead, may not
Speaker 1: even have any living heirs any longer. Um, that's one
Speaker 1: thing that it's it's old. The second thing is that
Speaker 1: it's old, but it's also not necessarily archaeological. It's it's money.
Speaker 1: So it's the old coins are the definition of treasure.
Speaker 1: And what we've entured now is called treasure law. And
Speaker 1: there's different types of things that we'll see, but there's
Speaker 1: one one category of found property is called treasure. And
Speaker 1: what they found was treasure. It was a gold coin,
Speaker 1: It was very old, but it wasn't necessarily archaeological. Again,
Speaker 1: it was on their property. And so had somebody come
Speaker 1: along and said, my grandpappy Clark buried those back when
Speaker 1: my family owned this property, that's ours, they would have
Speaker 1: a claim. And and pretty much anytime something valuable, especially
Speaker 1: ten million dollars valuable, is found in the United States,
Speaker 1: it is automatically going to get hammered out in court
Speaker 1: because the laws are so vague in piecemeal and arbitrary
Speaker 1: that it's going to going to be hammered out in court.
Speaker 1: Who has the bigger claim? But because John and Mary
Speaker 1: found something that was old, that was buried by someone
Speaker 1: no one knows who buried it, and that it was
Speaker 1: found on their property, they have a pretty good claim. Now,
Speaker 1: if you were going to come and say, my grandpappy
Speaker 1: buried that, um, your claim would be that was that
Speaker 1: belonged to my family at one point in time, we
Speaker 1: think it still does It just happened to be buried
Speaker 1: and forgotten or left um on land that these people bought. Now,
Speaker 1: there's a pretty good chance that the court would say, yeah,
Speaker 1: but they bought the land. And depending on what state
Speaker 1: you're in, that's that if they own the land, they
Speaker 1: owned everything on it, yeah. Or bought the car with
Speaker 1: money in the trunk, or the house with a super
Speaker 1: valuable painting buried in the attic. It's sort of all
Speaker 1: the same, um and And this is modern times. This
Speaker 1: has been going on since the dawn of time when
Speaker 1: people would lose or bury something, and they've always had
Speaker 1: I think back then it was a little more cut
Speaker 1: and dried, like an ancient Rome. If you found something
Speaker 1: like that, half of it went to the emperor, just
Speaker 1: sort of no if fans or butts uh if In
Speaker 1: modern England, if you find something um old and rare, uh,
Speaker 1: they say that belongs to the queen. Um. But here's
Speaker 1: here's like a good fee for you now now hand
Speaker 1: it over. And that's very very new, and that's kind
Speaker 1: of that represents the the new thinking in treasure law
Speaker 1: or found property law, which is, look, we can't just
Speaker 1: let you keep this stuff that may have not just
Speaker 1: like monetary value, but actually like cultural value as well, like,
Speaker 1: so we need to have something to do with this.
Speaker 1: So England, just when I should say, the UK just
Speaker 1: said everything you find that is valuable or antique, um
Speaker 1: and archaeological that belongs to the crown. But the Crown
Speaker 1: is going to pay you market value, no questions asked,
Speaker 1: right off the bat. So it's not finders keepers, but
Speaker 1: it's finders. Here's here's a bunch of money you didn't
Speaker 1: have before for finding this and bringing it into us.
Speaker 1: And the point of this from this position of the
Speaker 1: Crown or the UK government is that it encourages cooperation
Speaker 1: with archaeological archaeologists and historians to preserve cultural stuff rather
Speaker 1: than just having it sold out onto the the commercial
Speaker 1: market to private collectors because of finder keepers laws. And
Speaker 1: that's how it was before. Yeah. I mean, if if
Speaker 1: it's in the UK today and you find something that
Speaker 1: is not an ancient gold coin, but if you just
Speaker 1: find it, let's say, you know, ten thousand pounds bundled together,
Speaker 1: buried in your in your attic or on the street
Speaker 1: for that matter, I think you have to file paperwork
Speaker 1: at a police station. Uh, the owners have twenty eight
Speaker 1: days to claim it and then it's yours. In the
Speaker 1: United States, it varies from state to state and uh
Speaker 1: sometimes even county to county, but generally it's sort of
Speaker 1: the same thing. Like it reported to the police. They
Speaker 1: need to advertise the lost property for a week and
Speaker 1: then wait about ninety days depending on where you are,
Speaker 1: to see if anyone claims it, and then after that
Speaker 1: they might say you can keep it. Yeah, but maybe
Speaker 1: it just depends on where you are. That's um, that's
Speaker 1: like contemporary property that you found, right, Yeah, yeah, this
Speaker 1: is not like ancient gold coins. This is I found
Speaker 1: a bundle of cold hard cash. So let's let's take
Speaker 1: a break, and then we'll take a detour into contemporary
Speaker 1: property because there are like a whole other set of
Speaker 1: laws that are like are kind of important too, all right, yes, okay, chuck. So,
Speaker 1: like we said, there's there's some categories for for property
Speaker 1: found property. One of them is treasure, where it's just
Speaker 1: straight up I found eight cans of gold coins and
Speaker 1: it's treasure. Some in the UK, there's not really a
Speaker 1: distinction between that and say, um, like uh, archaeological artifacts.
Speaker 1: They're virtually one and the same. In the US because
Speaker 1: the age of the country is young enough, there's a
Speaker 1: distinction between an archaeological artifact and say, like treasure that's found.
Speaker 1: But there's then there's contemporary property where the person who
Speaker 1: owned it is probably still alive. If not, they're the
Speaker 1: first generation after them is still probably around um. And
Speaker 1: that that contemporary stuff is basically broken out into three subcategories.
Speaker 1: There's lost, abandoned, and mislaid property. And depending on the
Speaker 1: status of the property UM, the finder may or may
Speaker 1: not get to keep it, and even that then it
Speaker 1: depends on where you are. Yes, So as far as
Speaker 1: those categories go. Abandoned property is something that uh, they say,
Speaker 1: forsaken by a previous owner who doesn't have any intention
Speaker 1: of coming back for it, so they've abandoned. They have
Speaker 1: abandoned it. Can you imagine like how you would tell
Speaker 1: whether something's abandoned or not. I don't know. I mean
Speaker 1: unless they literally leave a note saying finders keepers, I
Speaker 1: don't want this anymore. Get this away from me. You
Speaker 1: know what would it be like a big bag of
Speaker 1: cocaine that somebody left there, like, I can't do anymore.
Speaker 1: This is really bad for me. I don't want this.
Speaker 1: I don't know. Uh, I don't know. That is that?
Speaker 1: That is the one that is the most confusing. The
Speaker 1: other two are much more straightforward. Lost obviously is like
Speaker 1: the example they gave is you've lost your engagement ring
Speaker 1: in the street um, and clearly it's something that you
Speaker 1: want back and maybe have tried to come back and
Speaker 1: find um, but you have dropped it or lost it somehow.
Speaker 1: And this mislaid is even more interesting because that is
Speaker 1: something that you intentionally put somewhere but then kind of
Speaker 1: forgot it. And another good example like you went to
Speaker 1: the bank and we're filling out your your form and
Speaker 1: then oh my goodness, you got a cell phone call
Speaker 1: and had to bolt real quick, and you left that
Speaker 1: money on the counter that you wanted to deposit in
Speaker 1: the bank. That is mislaid, um, because you clearly had
Speaker 1: an intention for it and we're just way late or whatever. Right,
Speaker 1: So it's not technically lost because you put it somewhere
Speaker 1: on purpose. Yeah, Whereas lost, like you dropped something in
Speaker 1: a parking lot. You may not even know you're missing
Speaker 1: it at the time, right, or you can't find it, right. Um.
Speaker 1: Mislaid is just like you're no longer where you put
Speaker 1: that thing down, but you intended to do something with it.
Speaker 1: There was intent behind it, but you forgot or something
Speaker 1: or you got called away. Yeah, and that that property
Speaker 1: mislaid property is supposed to be guarded by whoever owns
Speaker 1: the property, So in that case it would be the bank.
Speaker 1: Somebody from the bank should go over there, collect that
Speaker 1: money and just set it aside and be like that guy,
Speaker 1: we'll be back for this, right. Which is it's funny
Speaker 1: because you know the whole lost and Found box. You
Speaker 1: think that's just like a good Samaritan thing. Well, really,
Speaker 1: it's everybody just covering their behind speaking. I guess probably
Speaker 1: I see it differently now, and I'm a little more
Speaker 1: bitter because of it. So this Arizona case is one
Speaker 1: of the ones where I got a little, uh, little pod,
Speaker 1: I was okay a little bit. So this is a
Speaker 1: man died. He hid half a million dollars in cans
Speaker 1: and AMMO cans, ammunition cans in the walls. And years
Speaker 1: later the person who owned that house, we're doing some renovations.
Speaker 1: Outcome these cans and they were like, oh my god,
Speaker 1: it's a half a million dollars. This is ours. So
Speaker 1: this man's daughters they knew like dad loved to do
Speaker 1: stuff like this. He loved to hide things. He loved
Speaker 1: to hide things away. Uh. They they searched before they
Speaker 1: sold the house. They even searched, but obviously did not
Speaker 1: find these these cans stashed in the walls. Uh. And
Speaker 1: when this came out, these daughters came forward and we're like,
Speaker 1: you know, that's our money, that's our our you know,
Speaker 1: should have gone to us in a will. But my
Speaker 1: cookie Dad stashed in the wall again jerk. And Uh,
Speaker 1: these people fought them for that and said, no finders keepers,
Speaker 1: it's in our wall. We bought this house. Well, so
Speaker 1: I mean I I can understand your eye or in
Speaker 1: your anger, and that's what I'm like. As soon as
Speaker 1: someone stepped forward would have been like, oh, well here's
Speaker 1: your money, then like this is your father's. Sure it
Speaker 1: doesn't belong to me, But what if you were like, actually,
Speaker 1: we've got a like legitimate legal claim to this. Because
Speaker 1: depending on where they were and this is Arizona, but
Speaker 1: I mean depending on the state. When you buy property
Speaker 1: from somebody, you buy the property and everything on that property,
Speaker 1: whether anyone knows it's they're or not, it belongs to you.
Speaker 1: Is the property owner. For example, Texas is huge on
Speaker 1: that huge on private property ownership, so much so that
Speaker 1: if you own property in Texas and there's an archaeological
Speaker 1: site on your property, that's yours, bub you can set
Speaker 1: it on fire, you can turn it into a reck room,
Speaker 1: you can do whatever you want with that stuff. That's
Speaker 1: your property. That's how that's how Texas views uhum, private
Speaker 1: property rights. Right. So these people may have been like, well,
Speaker 1: we're from Texas, that's just how we do it in Texas,
Speaker 1: they had a legitimate claim to challenge. I get what
Speaker 1: you're saying, but they also may have felt like, hey,
Speaker 1: we bought this property and this came with the property,
Speaker 1: so this is our sorry, that whole loser's wheepers thing
Speaker 1: I think is what they were invoking. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: that that's clearly what they did. But what I'm saying
Speaker 1: is that is not a that's not cool, right, No,
Speaker 1: it's that money did not belong to them. They didn't
Speaker 1: work for it. They didn't buy it because the house
Speaker 1: because they thought there might be money in the walls.
Speaker 1: You know, I understand if no one came forward, then great,
Speaker 1: But as soon as these daughters come forward, like that's
Speaker 1: their money to do the right thing, that's what I say.
Speaker 1: I'm with you, like I would. There's no way I
Speaker 1: would have challenged these daughters in court, right, you would
Speaker 1: have been finders, nice guys, losers here you go. Well,
Speaker 1: I'd make sure, you know, I'd go through all the
Speaker 1: legal process of making sure that they are who they
Speaker 1: say they were and it all checked out. I wouldn't
Speaker 1: like if they came knocking on my door would just
Speaker 1: go all right here, but I would. I would go
Speaker 1: through that process and then say, well, okay, then it's
Speaker 1: definitely your money. Would you like interview their cousins and
Speaker 1: be like, what kind of daughters were they? Were they
Speaker 1: good daughters? Or you know, do they deserve this? At
Speaker 1: the very least, you're inviting a a heap of bad
Speaker 1: luck and karma upon your head. Well, if you believe
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff, sure it comes around. What goes
Speaker 1: around comes around, That's my motto. Well that's another finders, keepers, losers, weepers.
Speaker 1: What goes around comes around. And then the third one
Speaker 1: everything I needed to know I learned in kindergarten. Or
Speaker 1: what about this guy in Georgia the public defender talk
Speaker 1: about a jerk? Yes, there's no this guy had no
Speaker 1: legal standing whatsoever, whether he was from Texas or anywhere.
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't look him up to see what
Speaker 1: his name was. But in two thousand thirteen, a public
Speaker 1: defender found um a diamond ring, I guess, an engagement
Speaker 1: ring that was worth something like ten dollars and just
Speaker 1: put it in their pocket and walked away whistling. Man,
Speaker 1: what a I mean, especially an engagement ring? Right, that's mine? Yeah?
Speaker 1: What a jerk? No, I I agree, And um he
Speaker 1: got in trouble for it. From what I understand, they
Speaker 1: when the person went back and said I lost my
Speaker 1: engagement ring at the target helped me. The target said, well,
Speaker 1: of course we're gonna help you. Calm down, calm down, peace, brother,
Speaker 1: And they pulled up their surveillance videos and saw the
Speaker 1: public defender finding the ring and pocketing it, and they
Speaker 1: put a warr in out for the public defenders arrest
Speaker 1: for I think larceny actually, at the very least, for
Speaker 1: not going to links to find the person whose ring
Speaker 1: it was, not even links links, pick up a phone
Speaker 1: or go into the target and be like, hey, I
Speaker 1: need to speak to a manager. Well, it's funny, it says.
Speaker 1: One of the things that you can and should do
Speaker 1: if is like to do that and go like give
Speaker 1: that diamond ring to the manager at target, and like,
Speaker 1: I would never do that if it was something super valuable,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't trust I wouldn't trust them. I would keep
Speaker 1: it under my own control and go to the cops.
Speaker 1: Just walk around with a gun drawn on everybody, like,
Speaker 1: get back, get back, I found somebody's timond ring. Get back.
Speaker 1: It's my looking at now, And you're like, maybe I
Speaker 1: should just go ahead and rob someplace. Now I got
Speaker 1: my gun out and I'm protecting this time and ring,
Speaker 1: and you enter into a life of crime totally inadvertent.
Speaker 1: It's a justice thing again, Like I don't want people
Speaker 1: should have stuff that is rightfully there. It's not like, uh,
Speaker 1: well I just happened to get lucky today, right quick,
Speaker 1: Like that's what's wrong with this country. Yeah, And I mean,
Speaker 1: I know you're right about the frand in the behind
Speaker 1: the toaster oven. The diamond ring is even more cut
Speaker 1: and dry to me for sure, but um, that's yeah.
Speaker 1: This this isn't a parking lot and it was just lost,
Speaker 1: you know. Um. So yeah, there are certain things that
Speaker 1: you want to do if you find lost property that
Speaker 1: is contemporary, that's obviously lost, that's obviously new. Um. And
Speaker 1: one of the first things you want to do is
Speaker 1: take it to the cops and say, here, here's my
Speaker 1: name and number in case somebody doesn't doesn't claim this,
Speaker 1: but I'm officially giving it to you the cops for safekeeping,
Speaker 1: and then probably take out an ad in the paper
Speaker 1: or on Craigslist or both, and then kick back and
Speaker 1: wait for the kudos and the praise for being a hero, yeah,
Speaker 1: or for that thing to be returned to you if
Speaker 1: no one claims it. Yep, depending on where you are,
Speaker 1: I think it, Like you said, in the UK, it's
Speaker 1: something like a month. In California, it's I saw a
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty days. I've also seen ninety. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: if you do all the right things and follow all
Speaker 1: the right steps, it can be yours, free and clear.
Speaker 1: Not only free and clear, like you're not going to
Speaker 1: be arrested, free and clear where the person can come
Speaker 1: back and say, oh, you know I I that was
Speaker 1: my ring. If you are a jerk, you can say no,
Speaker 1: it's my ring now, and the cops would be like,
Speaker 1: it's it's their ring now. They followed all the right moves. Yeah.
Speaker 1: They also recommend if it's something really really valuable, maybe
Speaker 1: like get an attorney on on the thing, like maybe
Speaker 1: one who would find a diamond ring and not return
Speaker 1: it right exactly. He's a public defender too. That's what
Speaker 1: I don't get. Yeah. Yeah, well, I mean it was
Speaker 1: like an entertainment, a journey. It would make much more sense,
Speaker 1: it would, I guess, But in public defenders like, well,
Speaker 1: I don't get paid, this is a really thank plus job,
Speaker 1: and I'm going to do something for myself for once
Speaker 1: and then they ended up in jail for doing something
Speaker 1: for themselves for and then needed a public defender. Yes, ironically,
Speaker 1: should we take a break, Yeah, we're going to take
Speaker 1: a break, chuck. And then we are going to go
Speaker 1: under the sea. Yeah, where things get really confusing, all right.
Speaker 1: So this is where things get super super convoluted when
Speaker 1: you're talking about uh, shipwrecks and literal treasure from like
Speaker 1: you know, uh, an ancient galleon um, or maybe not ancient,
Speaker 1: but let's just say galleon. You know it could be yes,
Speaker 1: we'll say Italians in ancient times they had Oh you know,
Speaker 1: the oldest intact shipwreck was recently found in the Black Sea.
Speaker 1: Did you see it. It's an ancient Greek ship Okay,
Speaker 1: so ancient Greek. Yeah, Like that's how ancient. It's not
Speaker 1: even Greek, it's Greek. It's so ancient. Um, it's the
Speaker 1: kind that Odysseus was lashed two when they were going
Speaker 1: past the Sirens. It's like that kind of ship. It's
Speaker 1: that old, right, and um, it's fully intact, just laying
Speaker 1: on its side at the bottom of the Black Sea.
Speaker 1: It's just beautiful, beautiful little shipwreck. And that would be
Speaker 1: an ancient galleon. I guess you could call it all right.
Speaker 1: So this is where like I don't even know how
Speaker 1: to talk about this, almost because it's so convoluted, because
Speaker 1: it can it can matter whose ship it originally was us,
Speaker 1: it can matter what was on that ship. It can
Speaker 1: matter where the ship is now resting in whose waters
Speaker 1: or if it's international waters or partially on one side
Speaker 1: or the other, which is when it gets super confusing.
Speaker 1: Who the ship was leased from, who was least from,
Speaker 1: who is in charge of because most of these aren't accidents.
Speaker 1: I know, uh that it has pointed out that sometimes
Speaker 1: like a scuba diver might find something like this, but
Speaker 1: usually it's an expedition looking for this stuff specifically, so
Speaker 1: who runs that or whose insurance companies have a claim
Speaker 1: and what international agreements are made, and it's just it's
Speaker 1: almost like it's so case by case there really is
Speaker 1: no rule. Yeah, if you thought land property was convoluted,
Speaker 1: under undersea archaeology property treasure property is just totally off
Speaker 1: the charts. So with um, that was one of the
Speaker 1: nerdiest sentences I've ever uttered. Yeah, I wrote an article
Speaker 1: years ago about undersea archaeology, and I did a lot
Speaker 1: of that research then, and it is just really like
Speaker 1: basically what happens is is once something is found, then
Speaker 1: everyone just lawyers up and starts fighting. Yeah, exactly exactly.
Speaker 1: And I think the reason why UM it's it's particularly
Speaker 1: convoluted in in um contentious for the undersea um treasure
Speaker 1: is that the treasures that they're finding are just so
Speaker 1: eye popping lee valuable that it's worth, you know, going
Speaker 1: to court for fifteen twenty years over billions of dollars
Speaker 1: in some cases. Yeah. There was a wreck called the
Speaker 1: San Jose that was discovered and it was announced in
Speaker 1: two thousand fifteen. I'm not quite sure when Columbia discovered it,
Speaker 1: but it's off the coast of Cartagena and in TuS
Speaker 1: and fifteen the Colombian government came forward and said, we
Speaker 1: found the San Jose. It was a galleon. It was
Speaker 1: sunk by the British three hundred years ago. It wasn't Greek, no, no,
Speaker 1: it was. It was Spanish. But it was transport gold,
Speaker 1: silver gems from Peru back to Spain to to finance
Speaker 1: a war. It was loaded with with valuables. And they
Speaker 1: think that this wreck today the valuables aboard are worth
Speaker 1: between one and twelve billion dollars. This is not something
Speaker 1: that any one of these parties or countries is gonna
Speaker 1: give up on. Now. It's the kind of shipwreck. It's
Speaker 1: the kind of treasure that can actually affect world markets,
Speaker 1: like the value of goods on world markets above on land,
Speaker 1: because this stuff has been under the sea and out
Speaker 1: of the market for so long. When it comes onto
Speaker 1: the market, it could actually depress the value of the
Speaker 1: of like gold, because there's so much of it suddenly
Speaker 1: coming on the market. That's how rich this treasure is. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's funny here this article you sent. Um, there
Speaker 1: is a UNESCO convention in two thousand one on underwater
Speaker 1: cultural heritage findings that have best practices. They're not actually
Speaker 1: like you know, laws and they're they're like, we'd be
Speaker 1: happy to help out with this, but nobody's called this.
Speaker 1: That's so you and yeah, they they don't want them involved. Basically,
Speaker 1: they're just like, now we're going to work it out
Speaker 1: with the lawyers. They're like, hey, thanks, thanks a lot,
Speaker 1: Just go sit over there until we call your pretty much. Um. So,
Speaker 1: the San Jose has a lot of people arguing over
Speaker 1: for example, Spain is saying, well, it's a Spanish galleon.
Speaker 1: Give us our give us our money back. Colombia is like, yeah,
Speaker 1: it's in our coastal waters. That's our territorial waters that
Speaker 1: belongs to us. Peru says, yeah, you guys came and
Speaker 1: extracted that from our indigenous population back when we were
Speaker 1: Spanish calling. And that's one that doesn't come up very often,
Speaker 1: but you think it should, especially in the New World stuff, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: like that that was our original stuff to begin with.
Speaker 1: Even so we should have never been on that boat. Ironically,
Speaker 1: they probably have the least claim to it, sadly, but
Speaker 1: there's why they're going to get it. There's I wonder though,
Speaker 1: if they'll get a portion of it, though, I think
Speaker 1: if they said no, this is this is a thing,
Speaker 1: this is legitimate, they could conceivably get caught in, but
Speaker 1: they're not going to get the whole thing. I don't
Speaker 1: think anybody's going to get the whole thing, being clear.
Speaker 1: So there's all these different groups arguing over it, and
Speaker 1: it's big of a mess as it is, it's actually
Speaker 1: not the biggest mess of a treasure found a board
Speaker 1: a shipwreck. There's a ship called the Notre Dame de Deliverance. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's right. Yeah, that was um that sank
Speaker 1: forty miles off of Florida in seventeen fifty five. I mean,
Speaker 1: one of just hundreds and hundreds of ships to crash
Speaker 1: off the coast of Florida, and a U S salvage
Speaker 1: company found it in two thousand two. And this is
Speaker 1: the one that I was talking about. It's partially in
Speaker 1: international waters, partially as part of the Florida Keys National
Speaker 1: Marine Sanctuary. The Spaniards least the ship from the French
Speaker 1: West Indies company and so they all have a claim.
Speaker 1: And then complicating this is the fact that in the
Speaker 1: United States we passed the abandoned Shipwreck deck, which means
Speaker 1: all shipwrecks within US waters, uh, which is what like
Speaker 1: three miles off of any of our coastlines. Um our
Speaker 1: US properties? Is that right? So it's super convoluted. And
Speaker 1: that's actually the territorial waters thing has kind of been
Speaker 1: the toughest one, or the the best claim that any
Speaker 1: country can lay on a ship is now it's in
Speaker 1: our territorial waters. Customarily that means that's yours, that's yours
Speaker 1: to deal with. But when the ship is in international waters,
Speaker 1: are partially in international waters, that's just a whole different
Speaker 1: ball game. And even when something's in territorial waters, like
Speaker 1: Spain's not gonna go away now, you know, when two
Speaker 1: to three billion dollars is on the table, they're gonna
Speaker 1: say no, We're gonna use our diplomats to press you know,
Speaker 1: at least getting a portion of this. France will do
Speaker 1: the same thing, and the salvers are like, well, hey,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, this is this is ours. And actually,
Speaker 1: at first a Florida Um Florida judge said, yep, it's yours,
Speaker 1: free and clear. Two to three billion dollar booty is yours.
Speaker 1: Take it, put on this eye patch in this cool
Speaker 1: hat and go get it. Well, but you have to
Speaker 1: get Spain's permission to go get it, right exactly, so
Speaker 1: Spain's gonna say no, we want to have something to
Speaker 1: do with this. But that Shipwrecked Act, the whole, the
Speaker 1: whole reason why the United States is even involved is
Speaker 1: from that Shipwrecked Act. It's very similar to that UK
Speaker 1: Act where it basically says, nope, it belongs to us.
Speaker 1: Where the United States it's in our territorial waters, it
Speaker 1: belongs to us. But here's a significant portion of it,
Speaker 1: usually like of it. And the point of that is
Speaker 1: to keep um salvers and as your hunters interested enough
Speaker 1: that they're actually going out and salvaging these archaeological sites.
Speaker 1: But they're doing it under the jurisdiction of the state
Speaker 1: or federal government, which says you've got to keep daily logs.
Speaker 1: You have to break the reck site into strings of
Speaker 1: square meters, you have to catalog everything, you have to
Speaker 1: have a certified archaeology a marine archaeologist on board throughout
Speaker 1: the entire voyage overseeing this whole thing. You gotta do
Speaker 1: it right, and we'll give you of what we can
Speaker 1: get for it, which is substantial in some some cases.
Speaker 1: But it's not like treasure hunting is like a cheap activity.
Speaker 1: It's a very expensive undertaking. Yeah, it's seriously expensive. And
Speaker 1: like they don't just like these treasure hunting companies don't
Speaker 1: just go in there and say, hey, I think there's
Speaker 1: something there, let's go grab it. I mean, they do
Speaker 1: all their research because it is so expensive. Two ensure
Speaker 1: as much as possible that they will have a claim
Speaker 1: to it in the end. You know, they don't just
Speaker 1: go in there willy nilly and hopes that the courts
Speaker 1: will decide with them. No, no, for sure, but I
Speaker 1: mean I think that's the probably of significant portion of
Speaker 1: the operating cost of a treasure hunting outfit. Is the
Speaker 1: court costs and fees um to to get the to
Speaker 1: to get the rights to the treasure. I would guess yeah.
Speaker 1: And in this case too. I'm sure France was like
Speaker 1: Florida judge like, I don't care what you say, but
Speaker 1: Florida judges have a big saying this. They're about as
Speaker 1: professional as you could get, as far as as um
Speaker 1: passing judgment on treasure claims for sunken ships, because Florida
Speaker 1: has the most sunken ships of any state in the Union,
Speaker 1: something like six thousand to ten thous estimated shipwrecks from piracy, hurricanes,
Speaker 1: all this stuff. Um, Florida's got it. Also, if you're
Speaker 1: gonna if you're looking for a judge who has experience
Speaker 1: on ruling on a case like this, Florida is probably
Speaker 1: your best bet. Don't go to Oklahoma. That would be
Speaker 1: my my suggestion. That's just good advice all around. And
Speaker 1: it can also so um if you're a treasure hunter.
Speaker 1: Not only can the court costs be killer, you might
Speaker 1: be put in jail. There's a guy named Tommy Thompson
Speaker 1: who's a very famous treasure hunter who found the wreck
Speaker 1: of the Fitzgerald. No, although, man, there are a few
Speaker 1: wrecks that fascinate me more than the MM Fitzgerald. I
Speaker 1: can just sit there and look at those eerie pictures
Speaker 1: of it all day long. I can I just sing
Speaker 1: that song over and over. Um, you shouldn't do that.
Speaker 1: He'll drive you insane. No, he found the wreck of
Speaker 1: the s S. Central America, which was a steamer that
Speaker 1: went down in a hurricane off the coast of South
Speaker 1: Carolina in eighteen fifty seven with four d and twenty
Speaker 1: five souls aboard and three tons of gold. And um,
Speaker 1: he found it, and he went and sold a bunch
Speaker 1: of stuff and didn't pay his investors, and a judge
Speaker 1: put him in jail in Ohio, where he's been sitting
Speaker 1: since I think two thousand fifteen. Because he refuses to say,
Speaker 1: we're five hundred gold coins from the wreck. Quent he
Speaker 1: just won't say. He said that he gave him to
Speaker 1: somebody and believes, but he can't remember who they are.
Speaker 1: That's really, that's what his that's what his lawyer had
Speaker 1: to tell The Washington Post. That's pretty funny. Yeah, I'd
Speaker 1: just be like that to somebody and he can't remember who. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, I wish we could have been a little
Speaker 1: bit more like black and white about the shipwreck thing.
Speaker 1: But it's just it's just so depends on the case. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, there is no solid rule. There's a couple
Speaker 1: of solid rules. There's one above ground where if you
Speaker 1: are caught digging on federal land that's a felony um
Speaker 1: And any stone tool found in the United States belonged
Speaker 1: to the federal government automatically, I would guess, unless it's
Speaker 1: in Texas, in which case the Texas authorities and the
Speaker 1: federal authorities would fight with one another over your right
Speaker 1: to own that stone tool. That's a good point. So
Speaker 1: I think that's about it for finders keepers. Good one. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I thought so too. Uh. If you want to know
Speaker 1: more about finders keepers, go find something and say finders
Speaker 1: keepers and see what happens and then let us know.
Speaker 1: And in the meantime, we're gonna sit here and do
Speaker 1: listener mail. I'm gonna call this Stanford prison prison experiment.
Speaker 1: Follow up angry follow up, Yeah, you read this one. Hey, guys,
Speaker 1: just want to say thank you for your episode on Zimbardo.
Speaker 1: I'm a cognitive psychologist and have been teaching for years,
Speaker 1: and it makes me angry in a way I have
Speaker 1: never been angry before. You do your best to fact
Speaker 1: check and show that you're giving this to and she's
Speaker 1: not talking about our show, by the way, She'll nott Zimbardo.
Speaker 1: You do your best to fact check and show you're
Speaker 1: giving the students reliable information. But then someone pulls crap
Speaker 1: like this again Zimbardo and causes serious problems for us
Speaker 1: as teachers. How did I handle this chapter this year? Well?
Speaker 1: Number one, I taught it as normal as the text
Speaker 1: takes forever to be updated. And number two I showed
Speaker 1: them the video ghost of Abu Grabe is it abigrade
Speaker 1: Abigrade and had had them right about how Simbardo's study
Speaker 1: predicted this would happen. And then three had them all
Speaker 1: listen to your podcast. Now they are all as angry
Speaker 1: as I am, partially at me for doing that, but
Speaker 1: I wanted them to feel the effort they put into
Speaker 1: it go to waste. But I had a very interesting
Speaker 1: observation in one class the publicity and popularity off the study.
Speaker 1: Could it have actually created the dystopian prison environment and
Speaker 1: part at abi grabe through expectation? Oh, I see like
Speaker 1: a self fulfilling prophecy. I guess so. Basically, was Zimbardo
Speaker 1: the actual Lucifer in his book having an effect not
Speaker 1: only in society as a whole and what we believe
Speaker 1: about humanity, but how we act we now live in
Speaker 1: his hell? Then she says thanks again. Uh, and that
Speaker 1: is from Alison Demming from Try County Tech, temporarily insane
Speaker 1: with rage. It's right. I don't blame her. Yeah, that
Speaker 1: was That was a good episode, man, one of the best. Yeah,
Speaker 1: thanks Allison. Yeah, thanks a lot, Allison. Thanks for writing
Speaker 1: in with the support. We agree with you wholeheartedly. It's passion.
Speaker 1: It's not anger, that's right, man. Or maybe it's anger.
Speaker 1: I don't want to tell you I feel man, Chuck,
Speaker 1: you are killing it these days. So if you want
Speaker 1: to get in touch with us, you can go to
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