Speaker 1: Hi everybody. While I'm taking the month of September off
Speaker 1: of doing stand up, I return on October one to
Speaker 1: complete my Vaccinated and Horny Tour. October, November, and December,
Speaker 1: I have new dates up. I kick it off in Saratoga, California,
Speaker 1: and I'm coming to all parts of California, Long Beach,
Speaker 1: Baker's Field. I'm going to Niagara Falls, Tucson, Arizona, Colorado, Minneapolis,
Speaker 1: San Diego, Reading Pennsylvania, and Baltimore, Maryland, just to name
Speaker 1: a few. There's also some Floridian dates in there, since
Speaker 1: this will be my last year that I'm able to
Speaker 1: go inside the state of Florida. So check out Chelsea
Speaker 1: Handler dot com for more stand up dates for my
Speaker 1: Vaccinated in Horny Tour. These are my last dates. Hi, Catherine,
Speaker 1: how are you? I'm so good. I'm here in l
Speaker 1: A and it's going to be a hundred and four
Speaker 1: this weekend. I left l A because I don't like
Speaker 1: that kind of temperature, and but I'm gonna see you
Speaker 1: in my orcas soon. Catherine and I are going on
Speaker 1: vacation together with Brad. We're going to become a throople.
Speaker 1: We're gonna open up their related ship. That wouldn't be weird.
Speaker 1: You're welcome in. We're really good at snuggling and after care.
Speaker 1: I was just at a lunch. I'm in New York
Speaker 1: City this week because I'm here to watch the US
Speaker 1: Open because I wanted to watch Serena play for the
Speaker 1: last time. So I went to the first night where
Speaker 1: she fucking won and it was so special. I just
Speaker 1: love that energy. I love watching people win. Yes, she
Speaker 1: came out in like a glittery wrote like cape, like
Speaker 1: a queen. Yeah, she had six layers to signify all
Speaker 1: of the I guess six US Opens. She had one,
Speaker 1: and she played this girl whose name, God, that's terrible,
Speaker 1: I can't remember. But the girl was so good. It's
Speaker 1: so funny to watch Serena play because, like her opponents
Speaker 1: are always just running back and forth with such athleticism,
Speaker 1: and Serena just stands there. She's just like here, I'll
Speaker 1: return the ball from over here, like I'm not running anywhere.
Speaker 1: It's pretty amazing to watch her play. She's such a
Speaker 1: she's a beast. It's always amazing to see somebody who's
Speaker 1: just at the top of their game, whether it's sports,
Speaker 1: whether it's comedy, whether it's whatever it is. It's so
Speaker 1: fascinating to watch somebody who's at the top of her Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I love it. I love the whole vibe of like tennis,
Speaker 1: Grand Slams, Like I've been to Wimbledon. I think I've been.
Speaker 1: I think that's probably it. Wimbledon and the U s
Speaker 1: Open I've been to. But it's just such a vibe,
Speaker 1: you know, like you can drink, you watch sports like
Speaker 1: it's up close. You can see everything, no matter where
Speaker 1: you're sitting in the stadium, you're just watching the court.
Speaker 1: You know. It's not like a concert. We have to
Speaker 1: watch on one of these big screens. And the US
Speaker 1: Open is the biggest one out of the Grand Slams.
Speaker 1: It's it holds the most seats and so it's massive,
Speaker 1: and it's just it's. Yeah, my best friend Bitchy, she's
Speaker 1: my sports friends. She knows, she's always got in roads
Speaker 1: to any sporting event, so we always get hooked up.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I'm having a great time and I'm and
Speaker 1: then I'm going to see you in my Orca. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And you've been saying all kinds of friends this week,
Speaker 1: I know, because we're making plans last week. Oh my God,
Speaker 1: I know, I'm not looking at my calendar. I'm like, fuck,
Speaker 1: what the the funk is this? We have a podcast
Speaker 1: recording it to this interrupts my lunch and mushroom at day.
Speaker 1: I was so sorry to interrupt. Last night, though, I
Speaker 1: had the most romantic night by myself. I went to first,
Speaker 1: I got up and I worked out for two hours
Speaker 1: because I shot this campaign and I had to really
Speaker 1: get it together for well one week. That's how I
Speaker 1: get it together, and then I just went off. Since then,
Speaker 1: I've gained six pounds and I am just cruising through
Speaker 1: Manhattan and I'm walking everywhere. Yesterday I met my sister.
Speaker 1: I walked forty five minutes. I met her for launch,
Speaker 1: Then my friend Pitchy came. Then I walked all the
Speaker 1: way back, and then I walked back downtown. I got
Speaker 1: in seven twenty seven thousand steps yesterday. And my goal
Speaker 1: is just too. I love New York City for that reason.
Speaker 1: There's nowhere I mean, I just wish I lived in
Speaker 1: a city that was walkable, not in Los Angeles. Los
Speaker 1: Angeles definitely is not. It's barely drivable. Yeah, but where
Speaker 1: else have you been? You've been all over the place. Oh,
Speaker 1: my gosh, I just got back from Greece and Vancouver Island.
Speaker 1: I went from Greece to Vancouver Island. Warmed very cold.
Speaker 1: It sounds like, yeah, well it wasn't very cold on
Speaker 1: Vancouver Island. Greece was beautiful. I went to an island
Speaker 1: called Leftcata, which I've never been to, with a bunch
Speaker 1: of friends. We just got on a boat every day
Speaker 1: and went to a different beautiful restaurant and drank white
Speaker 1: wine and ate Greek salads and fish, and I could
Speaker 1: not have been happier. I actually was able to protect
Speaker 1: my face from the sun with this new hat I got,
Speaker 1: so it looked like a dick, but I like, at
Speaker 1: least my skin is not burned. And yeah, I was
Speaker 1: on vacation with lots of different new people and some children,
Speaker 1: so you know how that goes. Yes, I saw your
Speaker 1: incest story is with one particular who I think was
Speaker 1: your favorite. Oh yeah, she's my favorite. The ones who
Speaker 1: can't really form sentences are my favorites, you know, Like
Speaker 1: I like when they're beginning to talk but they haven't
Speaker 1: really gotten the hamstered it. Yeah, that's when they get
Speaker 1: a full personality. Is when I start to lose issuest. Yeah,
Speaker 1: the like gibber jabber stage where they'll just like tell
Speaker 1: you all about their day in total like jabbery English
Speaker 1: is my favorite. Yeah. I had this four ar old girl, Mia,
Speaker 1: who was just she was so she was like a
Speaker 1: seven year old. So it was so funny. I'd be like, Okay,
Speaker 1: let's play a game where we count all the boats
Speaker 1: that are moving in the ocean. She's like, that sounds silly.
Speaker 1: I've got another game. I'm like, oh my god, she said,
Speaker 1: I don't think so. She was just so funny, just
Speaker 1: like and this old British like she sounded like an
Speaker 1: old British man. She sounded like this is doubtfire. I
Speaker 1: love that traveling with children is another thing. You got
Speaker 1: us to have your own timeline involved. I just don't
Speaker 1: understand how people do it. How they have so many
Speaker 1: children and then they have to pack up their car
Speaker 1: and they have to put in the baby Bjorn and
Speaker 1: their cookies and their whatever bottle, all of it. And
Speaker 1: at every airport all you ever see is parents taking
Speaker 1: their sippy cups and downing the liquid in the sippy
Speaker 1: cups because the kids haven't finished it. Like I was
Speaker 1: at Heathrow on a layover. Oh I was in London too.
Speaker 1: I was at Heathrow and he throws like the strictest
Speaker 1: airport in terms of like liquids and fluids. So basically
Speaker 1: everyone who came through just had to sit there in
Speaker 1: front of the t s A agent drinking their thermis
Speaker 1: because no one had, you know, emptied out their thermis.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, how do people not fucking know about
Speaker 1: emptying out their thermis at this point? How did they
Speaker 1: not even doing this for a minute now it's been
Speaker 1: since yes, Oh my gosh. Yeah, I just don't think
Speaker 1: I could have a kid and be the sort of
Speaker 1: mom who like licks their kids pacifier to clean it
Speaker 1: before giving it to them, or like like parents. Man,
Speaker 1: I have a lot of respect, but I can't do
Speaker 1: all that gross stuff. No, no, it's all yeah, it's
Speaker 1: too much. It's just never ending. And some people make
Speaker 1: it look easy, and I respect that because it's not easy.
Speaker 1: Some people with many Nanni's. We have a very special
Speaker 1: guest today. His name is Ethan Niedelman and he is
Speaker 1: the former Princeton professor who built a political movement to
Speaker 1: legalize marijuana, roll back the drug war, and treat drugs
Speaker 1: as a health issue, not a criminal one. He is
Speaker 1: now the host of the podcast Psychoactive about all Things Drugs,
Speaker 1: now in a second season, And obviously I would like
Speaker 1: to announce to all my customers this disclaimer that I
Speaker 1: am not a doctor, I play one on a podcast,
Speaker 1: that I would never ever encourage anybody to do drugs.
Speaker 1: This isn't medical advice, this is my own personal therapy. Ethan. Hi,
Speaker 1: it's so nice to have you. Well, it's a pleasure
Speaker 1: to be on your show, Chelsea. I really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: Oh well, thank you, thanks for being here. And you
Speaker 1: know you've spoken to Catherine before. Yeah, Hi, Okay, So
Speaker 1: I know you are a huge proponent of the legalization
Speaker 1: of marijuana and basically I mean all drug use, right
Speaker 1: or do you want to get specific about what drugs
Speaker 1: you are for and what drugs you're against? Well, I mean,
Speaker 1: let me be very specific. I mean most of my
Speaker 1: life was about working to legalize marijuana and to end
Speaker 1: the war on drugs, So that's where and I was
Speaker 1: never called myself pro marijuana, although my personal life, I'd
Speaker 1: say marijuana and I have had a great relationship for
Speaker 1: a very long time. Amen to that. But when it
Speaker 1: comes to the other drugs, you know, I'm sort of
Speaker 1: a Merril wine and psychedelic exceptionalist, and that those are
Speaker 1: the drugs that have been good in my life and
Speaker 1: the other ones are not so crazy about. But the
Speaker 1: principle that nobody should be punished for whatever drugs they
Speaker 1: put in their body if they don't hurt anybody else,
Speaker 1: I think that's the core principle we have to remember.
Speaker 1: So that even if you love we love psychology, don't
Speaker 1: like all the other sorts of things, it doesn't mean
Speaker 1: that other people should get punished simply for using those things, right, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And so what are your feeling about other sort of narcotics.
Speaker 1: I mean, you're into psychedelics, and so I assume that
Speaker 1: encompasses all of all psychedelics. Psilocybin, Well, you know, I
Speaker 1: haven't tried all of them yet, right, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: mushrooms have been my kind of go to one for
Speaker 1: a very long time. Ayahuasca has been good. I've done
Speaker 1: mescaling once or twice. I've tried a few others. I
Speaker 1: did to ceb m Dama, not really a psychedelic, but
Speaker 1: that one was very nice in my life. Although it
Speaker 1: doesn't really work for me anymore. But when it comes
Speaker 1: to the opioids, I mean no, I just think they're
Speaker 1: useful for pain and that one needs to be very
Speaker 1: careful when you're using them. But I do know people
Speaker 1: who use psyche, you know, who use opioids and have
Speaker 1: led very successful lives even when using them regularly. So
Speaker 1: I'm just it's always just very important that we not
Speaker 1: demonize other people, even for using drugs that are more dangerous,
Speaker 1: and even like cocaine. Like I've never really liked cocaine
Speaker 1: that much. Mean for me, like having cocaine it's like
Speaker 1: drinking too much coffee and having post nasal drip, right,
Speaker 1: So it's never been a thing for me. I have
Speaker 1: friends who love cocaine. I've had friends who got in
Speaker 1: trouble with cocaine. I've had friends who just play with it.
Speaker 1: So I'm not a big fan. I don't think it
Speaker 1: brings out the best in people. You know, I wouldn't
Speaker 1: want people I really care about getting into cocaine too much.
Speaker 1: But it still means I don't like the law of
Speaker 1: punishing anybody for using that stuff. So when you said
Speaker 1: you used M D M A, but it stopped working
Speaker 1: for you. What do you mean by that, because I've
Speaker 1: heard that before from people. Well, I'll tell you. I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, Chelsea, when I first started using early thirties,
Speaker 1: it was in the context of my divorce. I think
Speaker 1: it helped us land up on a softer landing. And
Speaker 1: I've used it in romantic relationships since in my thirties
Speaker 1: and forties, and it was good with friends and I've
Speaker 1: been to raise But around I'm now sixty five, around
Speaker 1: the time I hit my early fifties, I found that
Speaker 1: the upside started waning and the downside started increasing, and
Speaker 1: I start having the feeling like my body was telling me,
Speaker 1: don't put this in you, And so I really miss it.
Speaker 1: I mean it was. It served a valuable purpose for
Speaker 1: me in terms, especially in romantic relationships, in terms of
Speaker 1: being able to deal with issues and have communications and
Speaker 1: otherwise difficult to do. Yeah, that's true. It is helpful
Speaker 1: in relationships if you can have conversations, important conversations. Right,
Speaker 1: Have you used it in that way? No, I haven't.
Speaker 1: I've only used it, and I mean that's a good
Speaker 1: idea though I've only used it to like have a
Speaker 1: good time, you know. M D. M a that is,
Speaker 1: but no, I haven't. I'd recommend it. I mean, it's
Speaker 1: just because it gives people the ability both to listen
Speaker 1: it more deeply than they normally worried. It dissolves the defenses,
Speaker 1: and also to speak in a way that's more and
Speaker 1: pathic in a way. And so I think, you know,
Speaker 1: when it was first kind of when it's uses were
Speaker 1: first kind of rediscovered the seventies, it was known as
Speaker 1: the couple's therapy drug, and it was most famous for
Speaker 1: that type of use. And now when we see it
Speaker 1: emerging for use with respect to PTSD and things like that,
Speaker 1: it really has a very valuable role to play. So
Speaker 1: I strongly encourage it as long as it work well
Speaker 1: for you. I should also say that I think when
Speaker 1: it comes to stopping, I know a lot more guys
Speaker 1: who says it doesn't work for me anymore. Whereas women
Speaker 1: seem to get this is no no research on this,
Speaker 1: just impressionistic. Women seem to get more value of it
Speaker 1: for a longer time. Interesting, And what about tell me
Speaker 1: a little bit about mescaline. I've never had any experience
Speaker 1: with mescaline either, I don't think so well, you know,
Speaker 1: you can get it in the refined version, which is
Speaker 1: the way I did it. That other two ways is
Speaker 1: it comes from the peyote cactus, which is the one
Speaker 1: that's used in Indigenous ceremonies, Native American church, and now
Speaker 1: people are mostly people are being discouraged from using payote
Speaker 1: because there's a limited supply and you don't want to
Speaker 1: deprive Native American church members and Indigenous peoples of having
Speaker 1: access to it. But there's a plant called San Pedro
Speaker 1: which is also a source of mescalin. So I would
Speaker 1: say that I did at the one time I did it,
Speaker 1: I found that a lot like a mushroom experience. It
Speaker 1: can be maybe a little bit longer. It was before
Speaker 1: the invention of LSD in the forties or just you know,
Speaker 1: a creation of LSD in the forties, it was the
Speaker 1: most popular of the psychedelics. I just interviewed somebody on
Speaker 1: my podcast I Go Active. Mike j wrote a wonderful
Speaker 1: history of this whole thing. Michael Pollen, who has written
Speaker 1: that wonderful book changed and had to change your mind
Speaker 1: about psychedelics. He has a new book where he talks
Speaker 1: about his mescaline news. So I would say it's worth trying.
Speaker 1: Some people may prefer it to LSD or two mushrooms.
Speaker 1: I don't think it's radically different though. Okay, so it's
Speaker 1: in that same family. And what about your experience, you said, Iowaska,
Speaker 1: have you done that multiple times? You know? I did
Speaker 1: it for the first time about twenty years ago. I
Speaker 1: had a great experience, and I did it a fe
Speaker 1: years later in the context of a religious ceremony something
Speaker 1: the Brazilian church called Santo Dime. Although I did it,
Speaker 1: you know, loft in New York, but in that modality,
Speaker 1: and then since that time, I haven't really done the
Speaker 1: full blowing ones. I've been at gatherings with a sort
Speaker 1: of guide where they have low dose ayahuasca mixed in
Speaker 1: with other things. I've never gone down all South America
Speaker 1: to do it in the jungle. I saw you did
Speaker 1: that for the TV show you did on Netflix. I
Speaker 1: know a lot of people have done it that way,
Speaker 1: so it's not been a drug I've gone back to
Speaker 1: many times. Although I would definitely do it again. I
Speaker 1: would definitely do it again. You know, I'm one of
Speaker 1: the few people, like most people throw up when they
Speaker 1: do it, you know, and you're supposed to throw up
Speaker 1: because it helps to purge, but I didn't throw up.
Speaker 1: I didn't throw up either. Oh no, I did throw up.
Speaker 1: Sorry I did. Yeah, I thought you were talking about
Speaker 1: the other outlet because they say you can sometimes, you know,
Speaker 1: go to the backroom to with that. With respect to
Speaker 1: that second time I did it, nothing happened during the ceremony,
Speaker 1: but in following days that other outlet was quite active.
Speaker 1: Oh well, that's good to know. Thank you for filling
Speaker 1: me in. Yeah. Sure, do you find age at all
Speaker 1: to be a prohibitor? Are in any of these drugs
Speaker 1: we're talking about? You don't, I'll tell you. I think,
Speaker 1: first of as I say, as I've got an older
Speaker 1: m DNA is not really doing it for me. Marijuana
Speaker 1: continues to be my friend after all these years. I
Speaker 1: think if you don't have issues, like, for example, I
Speaker 1: don't have any. You know, I'm very healthy for my age,
Speaker 1: so I don't worry about cardiovascular issues. If you feel
Speaker 1: vulnerable cardiovastro lee, you have to be careful with taking
Speaker 1: a drug that could really, you know, get your heart
Speaker 1: going in a serious way. I've never been on antidepressants,
Speaker 1: but if you are, you know you can't be an
Speaker 1: antidepressants and be doing ayahuasca because as I've got a
Speaker 1: toxic combination. Like one thing I've gotten into in recent
Speaker 1: years is doing LSD. Not at the macro dose with
Speaker 1: the heroic dose, the big dose, and and not so
Speaker 1: much at the micro dose, the five or ten micrograms,
Speaker 1: but doing what I would call a mini dose of
Speaker 1: like twenty or thirty micrograms, which is enough to make
Speaker 1: you feel you're under the influence of something, but you're
Speaker 1: not really having any visions, You're not way out there.
Speaker 1: And I will say that the following day, I just
Speaker 1: feel exhausted, and I think that maybe aging. But you know,
Speaker 1: there are people who just keep doing it into their
Speaker 1: eighties and older. I mean, my view on the psychedelics
Speaker 1: has always been there kind of wasted on the young,
Speaker 1: and I tend to think about them. I let's give it.
Speaker 1: Gave a speech and I said, you know, I think
Speaker 1: about doing psychedelics the way I think about ya keep poor.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm Jewish, I grew up religious. Right now
Speaker 1: I'm not that religious, but you know, once a year, yon'
Speaker 1: kee poor fast twenty five hours, no food, no water,
Speaker 1: because I think it's a good thing for getting more
Speaker 1: in touch with that spiritual side. And I think the
Speaker 1: same thing with psychedelics that a lot of times people
Speaker 1: you know in their forties, fifties, sixties, seventy say, oh,
Speaker 1: I did that when I was young. But my view
Speaker 1: is it's a good thing to keep coming back to
Speaker 1: at least once a year. It's a it's good for
Speaker 1: stirring up the emotional sediment, the psychological sediment that builds
Speaker 1: up as we get older. And I think the reason
Speaker 1: that people get scared of it when they get older
Speaker 1: is because it does mean stirring up that emotional sediment.
Speaker 1: It does mean coming to grips with things, compromises you
Speaker 1: made in life, things you've had to settle for. But
Speaker 1: I actually think it's a healthy thing spiritually, emotionally, and
Speaker 1: probably even physically to keep doing it as long as
Speaker 1: one feels physically able. Wow, well, that's great. I love
Speaker 1: to hear that because I always feel like you, in
Speaker 1: a certain point, you have to stop the drugs, and
Speaker 1: I think what you're saying is quite the opposite. As
Speaker 1: long as you're continually evolving and exploring, there's no reason
Speaker 1: to stop unless you know you have some health limitations.
Speaker 1: Exactly exactly, And I seem to try to overcome those
Speaker 1: fears that happen as we get over. So many of
Speaker 1: my friends who used to do it with me back
Speaker 1: in the day, now they're worried about it. They're scared
Speaker 1: about it. Although the truth being that with all the
Speaker 1: same arable media about psychedelics now, with Michael Collin's book
Speaker 1: and all the other sorts of things, more and more
Speaker 1: people are expressing interest in doing it who either haven't
Speaker 1: done it in many decades or never did it. And
Speaker 1: I think that's an encouraging sign, you know. I mean,
Speaker 1: even with marijuana, if you think about it. I remember
Speaker 1: when we started legalizing marijuana, first for medical and then
Speaker 1: more broadly in the various states with all the ballot initiatives,
Speaker 1: and people would say, you just you watch, adolescent use
Speaker 1: is gonna skyrocket. And my response to them would be,
Speaker 1: I don't think so, because teenagers already have easy availability
Speaker 1: in marijuana and we're not legalizing it for them, So
Speaker 1: why is it going to go up so much? And
Speaker 1: I said, the real increase in use is going to
Speaker 1: be among people in their fifties, sixties, seventies, eighties, and nineties.
Speaker 1: And I'll tell you, you know, five ten years since
Speaker 1: we started legalizing marijuana or in states around the country,
Speaker 1: there's been virtually no jump in adolescent marijuana use, which
Speaker 1: would be something you'd worry about. But meanwhile, among people,
Speaker 1: like you know, people in their sixties seventies, there's like
Speaker 1: a quadrupling of us because people are finding it valuable.
Speaker 1: They're finding it, you know, that they find they prefer
Speaker 1: to alcohol, They find it helps with sleep, or aches
Speaker 1: and pains, or or maybe it helps to spice up
Speaker 1: a sexual relationship with a person you've been married to
Speaker 1: for decades, right, I mean, it's got all these sorts
Speaker 1: of benefits. And so I think the benefits of psychoactive drugs,
Speaker 1: and especially one it's like cannabis and psychedelics, I think
Speaker 1: they're underestimated in terms of being positively connected with healthy aging.
Speaker 1: Do you think that the dosage is important as you aged?
Speaker 1: I mean, because the micro dosing is really what everybody's
Speaker 1: on about now and guided journeys with whatever drug of choice,
Speaker 1: whether it's a micro dose of LSD or psilocybin or ketamine.
Speaker 1: Do you think that that has an impact. Well, it's
Speaker 1: so hard to know. I mean with micro doc thing,
Speaker 1: some people have claimed it's little more than a placebo,
Speaker 1: and other people have claimed released significant benefit from MIKE
Speaker 1: and micro doocing usually means taken between a tenth to
Speaker 1: the twentie of the dose that would normally result in
Speaker 1: a psychedelic trip. And so I would say the microdocing
Speaker 1: thing is worth trying. It does not appear to be
Speaker 1: much risk associated with it, although there's not long term
Speaker 1: studies on it, and that can evolve doing it with LSD,
Speaker 1: with mushrooms, it can even be done with ayahuasco or
Speaker 1: even what I've even heard about microdocing Iba game, which
Speaker 1: is a very powerful psychedelic out of West Africa from
Speaker 1: the aboga plant that you know, people have found great
Speaker 1: resulting during addiction. But I'm a little scared to try
Speaker 1: with marijuana. Some people find that as they get older
Speaker 1: that the brain changes in a way and so that
Speaker 1: you need less to get high. So I think it's
Speaker 1: a matter of just being attentive to what works and
Speaker 1: and look hoo for people use it differently. I know people,
Speaker 1: I know people, billionaires, enormously successful people. Every night, you know,
Speaker 1: they'll take a couple of puffs off a joint, watch
Speaker 1: late night TV and go to sleep. And they've been
Speaker 1: doing that for decades. I know brilliant academics and intellectuals
Speaker 1: who've been using marijuana, including for creative purposes. In my case,
Speaker 1: I don't do marijuana daily, you know. I smoke it
Speaker 1: periodically with friends or my partner or something like that.
Speaker 1: And and then edible I'm getting into. Edible is more frequently.
Speaker 1: In fact, for me, part of my healthy aging process
Speaker 1: is once a week when I'm in New York, I
Speaker 1: take ten dollograms of edible THHC, usually in a nice
Speaker 1: chocolate bar, grab my headphones, and I go down and
Speaker 1: get a multi hour massage, and I'm just floating and
Speaker 1: Mari Wanta helps me get into my body. So I
Speaker 1: think it's actually, when you're using any psychoactive drugs, the
Speaker 1: key thing is to be using it consciously, not to
Speaker 1: be using it unconsciously, and not to just be using
Speaker 1: it habitually, and not to be using it just in
Speaker 1: his escapest way is to use it consciously, to say,
Speaker 1: this is a moment or a thing I'm doing where
Speaker 1: I think, actually using this substance when hands what I'm
Speaker 1: intending to do or wanting to do right now. The
Speaker 1: circling back real quick to your m d m A
Speaker 1: experience with your ex wife, you said that that helps
Speaker 1: with issues in your marriage to have conversations while taking that.
Speaker 1: I have heard that before, but not really the way
Speaker 1: that you said it, because the dosage would have an
Speaker 1: impact on your being able to actually have a conversation
Speaker 1: like that in a serious nature, right, rather than just
Speaker 1: not not really chose because you know, with m d
Speaker 1: m A is pretty standard that people will do between
Speaker 1: a hundred and a hundred fifty grants, and so when
Speaker 1: you're doing m d m A, you know, nobody's hallucinating.
Speaker 1: It's not a psychedelic experience. They call the drug used
Speaker 1: to be called it in pathoging because it helps to
Speaker 1: open up your heart. In fact, at some point the
Speaker 1: nickname was originally gonna be like something like empathy. But
Speaker 1: people realize, you know, who wants to market a druggle empathy.
Speaker 1: There's not a big market for empathy. Let's call it ecstasy,
Speaker 1: and so ecstasy became the nickname for m d m A.
Speaker 1: But I think the key thing is that when the
Speaker 1: drug comes on and it's two people and you're in
Speaker 1: a relationship, the ability to process stuff, to process things
Speaker 1: that have been bugging one or the other to talk
Speaker 1: about them in a respectful way, an empathic way. It
Speaker 1: basically causes defenses to melt in a way. And I
Speaker 1: think that's it's great with with with my ex wife.
Speaker 1: You know, we were in a very difficult spot, but
Speaker 1: we did it together and we're able to talk and
Speaker 1: we actually thought for a while, as did our marriage counselor,
Speaker 1: that oh my god, our marriage is gonna be saved here.
Speaker 1: And in the end, you know, it wasn't enough. But
Speaker 1: I do think we landed up with a safer landing
Speaker 1: and became and wonderful co parents and friends thereafter, and
Speaker 1: subsequent relationships, you know, it was. It's always been valuable
Speaker 1: in terms of dealing with the stuff that builds begins
Speaker 1: to build up in a relationship, that that needs to
Speaker 1: get processed, that needs to get talked about. So I
Speaker 1: think just being there quiet place, have that conversation, and
Speaker 1: while you're in the conversation, remembering that it's not the
Speaker 1: kind of drug you can keep using over and over
Speaker 1: and over and over over again. If the idea is
Speaker 1: to as you're doing it and as you're having this heartfelt,
Speaker 1: honest understanding and pathet conversation to be thinking about ways
Speaker 1: in which you can get back to that spot the
Speaker 1: next day and the next week and the next month
Speaker 1: without having to use the drug repeatedly. Right, it's good
Speaker 1: to come back and use it occasionally. I'm talking about
Speaker 1: using it three, four or five times a year, not
Speaker 1: using it weekly and never mind daily or something like that.
Speaker 1: And it kind of depletes you right of your serotonin.
Speaker 1: If you think about you know, prozac, they both act
Speaker 1: on the serotonin level. That essentially, prozac is a mattress
Speaker 1: and M D m A is a trampoline, And so
Speaker 1: oftentimes the next day people can feel a bit depleted,
Speaker 1: although I'll tell you the first time I did it,
Speaker 1: I felt great the next day. Yeah. I always feel
Speaker 1: it the next day in my system in a good way,
Speaker 1: not a bad way, in a good way. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: that's that's great. That's great. I think if I have
Speaker 1: found this is just once again anecdotal, when I would
Speaker 1: do with friends and the next day we all jump
Speaker 1: on the plane's to go back home, I noticed that
Speaker 1: a surprising number as we get a cold and we
Speaker 1: get thick in the following days. So I think it's
Speaker 1: it's good to understand that your system just to maybe
Speaker 1: somewhat compromised the following day and just take it easy.
Speaker 1: And like oft time telling that people don't do it
Speaker 1: on a Sunday, do it on a Saturday. Make sure
Speaker 1: you have a day to take off between the day
Speaker 1: you take it and the day you're back and work,
Speaker 1: because what I find is that it melts your defenses,
Speaker 1: and the defenses don't just jump right back up to
Speaker 1: so to throw yourself right back into work the next
Speaker 1: day when your defense is they're still kind of down,
Speaker 1: you know, and ships flying at you in the work environment,
Speaker 1: you're not quite ready to deal with it. You need
Speaker 1: that recovery time that at least a day of recovery
Speaker 1: time after you do it. Yeah, and also it's good
Speaker 1: to take BE twelve before doing it and after doing
Speaker 1: it to help with that kind of they call it
Speaker 1: like suicide Tuesday. It's not suicide, right, suicide I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's usually two days after you take it that some
Speaker 1: people can have like a depressive episode. Right. This doesn't
Speaker 1: happen to everybody, but people can. It can happen. So
Speaker 1: it's always good to take B twelve. Okay, Well, Ethan,
Speaker 1: we're excited you're here today. We have a show where
Speaker 1: we have people call in for advice. So you're going
Speaker 1: to be our guest and Katherine's going to give us
Speaker 1: the low down. But first we're going to take a break,
Speaker 1: right Catherine. Yeah, We're gonna take a quick break for
Speaker 1: an ad and we'll be right back with some colors. Okay,
Speaker 1: and we're back. Fantastic. Well, we have really just all
Speaker 1: drug questions today. What a nice what a nice episode
Speaker 1: this is going to be. It feels so warm and fuzzy. Yes,
Speaker 1: I mean, I do have to I do have to
Speaker 1: preface this with I am a baby drug user. I
Speaker 1: have not really tried a whole lot of things. Haven't
Speaker 1: tried mushrooms, that sort of thing. Have minimally tried marijuana.
Speaker 1: Just wait till you come to my orca, Katherine. Don't worry,
Speaker 1: just wait. You have so much to look forward. And
Speaker 1: with N d n A, I'm oftentimes most envious. I
Speaker 1: call them the N d n A virgins because if
Speaker 1: you've never done it before, the first time is often
Speaker 1: times the best ever. So I'm kind of excited. I
Speaker 1: do have to say I won the second place prize
Speaker 1: in the Dare Essay writing competition in fifth grade, but
Speaker 1: second place was better than first place because she got
Speaker 1: like a tour of the police department and I got
Speaker 1: a pizza party. So yeah, seriously, hello, prizes are in
Speaker 1: the wrong order for that contest, exactly exactly. So our
Speaker 1: first question comes from Jamie. She says, Chelsea, you were
Speaker 1: talking think about CBD today when I was listening to
Speaker 1: Glennon's episode. I've tried many CBD products and I don't
Speaker 1: ever feel any effect. Can you recommend a specific amount
Speaker 1: or brand so I can feel the effects. I try
Speaker 1: to pop Brownie ones and it threw me into a
Speaker 1: terrible panic attack. I don't want to feel bad again.
Speaker 1: I just want to feel calm and sleep. Thanks Jamie, Well, CBD,
Speaker 1: if you're not feeling anything, I would say not to
Speaker 1: be opposed to adding a little th HC ratio to it.
Speaker 1: I mean, if you're taking c I don't really feel
Speaker 1: CBD when I take that by itself either. I'd usually
Speaker 1: take that for when I'm skiing for pain management for
Speaker 1: my knee, but I would say to throw in a
Speaker 1: little th HC, like you don't you know? It could
Speaker 1: be like two point five milligrams of t HC against
Speaker 1: a higher percentage or higher ratio of cb D for
Speaker 1: a little bit more of a buzz to help you
Speaker 1: so you can actually feel it without overdoing it. Ethan,
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on this matter? Yeah, I really
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, I do do CBD. All the
Speaker 1: stuff about the rub bombs and this and that, and
Speaker 1: it drops. There's not a lot of evidence out there
Speaker 1: about how using it in that form is actually helpful,
Speaker 1: and it's usually not psychoactive. There are studies that show
Speaker 1: that CBD has been helpful in some very serious medical conditions,
Speaker 1: but a lot of it's been hype. It's hard to say. Now.
Speaker 1: There is a website out there called Project CBD, a
Speaker 1: guy named Martin Lee, who I think is one of
Speaker 1: the most honorable you know. I don't think he's taken
Speaker 1: money from anyone company to promote one or the other.
Speaker 1: So I keep your eye on that Project CBD website
Speaker 1: and they may provide some guidance about what are the
Speaker 1: more reliable or less reliable both brands and ways of
Speaker 1: taking it or not taking it. The idea that Chelsea
Speaker 1: said about combining it with THHD and small amounts, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, the plant produces the marijuana plant produces both
Speaker 1: th HC and CBD, and so that's why you see
Speaker 1: a lot of the edibles. Sometimes we'll have a th
Speaker 1: HC CBD combination. I think it's generally a good idea
Speaker 1: to use th HC with some CBD. Sometimes people have
Speaker 1: issues of marijuana and anxiety may find that if you're
Speaker 1: using th HC with no CBD in it, and may
Speaker 1: exacerbate the anxiety because CBD is supposed to be an
Speaker 1: anti anxiety drug. So I'd say, no fantastic information out there,
Speaker 1: but you can dig around and try to use the
Speaker 1: drugs in combination. And what's the name of that website again,
Speaker 1: I think it's called Project CBD or just google Martin
Speaker 1: Lee CBD, which is what I just did. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I like the idea of combining it. There was a
Speaker 1: time when I was using a lot of CBD. I
Speaker 1: also didn't really feel anything. But Brad, my husband, and
Speaker 1: I went to the beach and I had been using
Speaker 1: like a CBD vape pretty heavily that day, and we
Speaker 1: decided like, okay, we're gonna like take a couple of
Speaker 1: hits of this very strong joint that we got as
Speaker 1: a as a wedding favor at my brother Ethan's wedding
Speaker 1: and we both took one hit and we're just I mean,
Speaker 1: it was beyond It was way too much. It was
Speaker 1: super super strong. And usually when I have too much marijuana,
Speaker 1: I get very like unhappy, panicky. It activates all that
Speaker 1: stuff for me. But since i'd had so much CBD,
Speaker 1: I was very calm, even though I was like, I'm
Speaker 1: way more stone than I want to meet. But it
Speaker 1: really helps from that perspective of like, just gave me
Speaker 1: a chill time. Hm, that makes sense. You know a
Speaker 1: lot of times a lot of people have issues with
Speaker 1: anxiety and marijuana. I think a lot of them I
Speaker 1: find that the first time they did marijuana, they did
Speaker 1: it in a social environment, oftentimes with people they were
Speaker 1: not necessarily that comfortable with. And so I think the
Speaker 1: best way to deal with that is when you're using marijuana,
Speaker 1: either to overcome that fear of anxiety or using it
Speaker 1: for the first time, try to do in a place
Speaker 1: where you're either if either by yourself or with your
Speaker 1: lover or close friends, where you're really comfortable, where there's
Speaker 1: nobody you have to be on with nobody you have
Speaker 1: issues with and if possible, do it not in like
Speaker 1: the same place, like the TV room or whatever, but
Speaker 1: trying to find a nice place outside, you know, whether
Speaker 1: it's the woods or a lake or something that's not
Speaker 1: your normal you know, sitting environment. Just alter it a bit. Well.
Speaker 1: Our next question comes from Michelle. Michelle says, Dear Chelsea,
Speaker 1: I'm going on a camping trip this month with my
Speaker 1: husband and two other couples. We all plan on doing
Speaker 1: mushrooms together. The other couples do this yearly and are
Speaker 1: inviting us for the first time. I don't have much
Speaker 1: experience with drugs. I smoked weed a bit in my
Speaker 1: early twenties, and I've done coke once. I'm a little
Speaker 1: nervous of the possibility of a quote bad trip. I
Speaker 1: feel extremely safe with my friends, and I know they'll
Speaker 1: guide me through the experience. I'm mostly nervous about my husband.
Speaker 1: He's very experienced with drugs, although he has never done mushrooms.
Speaker 1: But my main worry is his reaction if I do
Speaker 1: have a bad trip. He would prefer me not to partake,
Speaker 1: and I'm scared that my fear of his reaction could
Speaker 1: make me have a negative experience. What's your advice to
Speaker 1: have an enjoyable experience for my first time Michelle. Hi, Michelle,
Speaker 1: I think first off, you have to stop telling yourself
Speaker 1: you're not going to have a good experience, because that's
Speaker 1: like a self fulfilling prophecy. You have to go into
Speaker 1: drugs always like you're using the drug. The drug is
Speaker 1: not using you. That's how I feel about any time
Speaker 1: I take drugs. Anytime I'm not in control of the
Speaker 1: situation is when I'm not in control of the situation.
Speaker 1: So I would just say to do you know, if
Speaker 1: you're worried about your experience, just do half of what
Speaker 1: everybody's doing, and you're gonna have a good time. Mushrooms
Speaker 1: make you laugh, they make you relax. They you will
Speaker 1: be probably laughing the hardest you've ever laughed in your life.
Speaker 1: That's usually what happens to people the first time they
Speaker 1: do mushrooms. Ethan, what has you've been your experience with
Speaker 1: people who have bad trips on mushrooms. I mean, so,
Speaker 1: I think your advice to Michelle is right on the
Speaker 1: Other thing I would tend to say is that Michelle
Speaker 1: and her husband should have a conversation beforehand and maybe
Speaker 1: with their friends there just think. Listen. I want you
Speaker 1: to know, dear husband, that if I need some help
Speaker 1: during this, I'm not expecting you to be there. Please
Speaker 1: don't worry about me, and have one of the friends
Speaker 1: saying we're in charge here. Say to the husband, you
Speaker 1: can relax if you're having your own good trip, bad trip.
Speaker 1: Don't feel an obligation. You want to be together, be together,
Speaker 1: but don't get into a mode of needing this for
Speaker 1: one of the other. And we the friends are here
Speaker 1: to help in that and thereby take the pressure. So,
Speaker 1: for example, it does You're right, it's highly unlikely to
Speaker 1: go in the wrong direction. But if it does, that
Speaker 1: the husband's not gonna feel guilty for not being president.
Speaker 1: Is having the friends there the host, they're saying, we
Speaker 1: got this. You relax. When she's a little better, you
Speaker 1: guys can be together. Something along those lines. Yeah. And
Speaker 1: just for the record, I know this is I mean,
Speaker 1: I don't speak for the entire universe, even though i'd
Speaker 1: like to. I would like to say that I've never
Speaker 1: been around anybody who had a bad trip on mushrooms.
Speaker 1: And I do them all the time. I've done them
Speaker 1: dozens of times. I did have two trips that I
Speaker 1: would regard as that we went into a very dark place,
Speaker 1: um where I just began to feel enormously depressed. And
Speaker 1: I used two different approaches to deal with it the
Speaker 1: first time, and it felt a little bit light cheating
Speaker 1: was that when into when it went into a very
Speaker 1: dark place, I had some M D M A around,
Speaker 1: you know, ecstasy, and I just took a little M
Speaker 1: D M A and that just lifted it up into
Speaker 1: a beautiful place. Again. It's one reason why sometimes people
Speaker 1: can buy and mushrooms in M D M A, because
Speaker 1: it both enhances the possibility will go into a beautiful
Speaker 1: spot and it minimizes the chance of going into a
Speaker 1: dark spot. Now the other way to do it and
Speaker 1: the real possibility that it goes into a dark place.
Speaker 1: And this I remember I was doing it with my partner.
Speaker 1: We'ant a beat and it went into a very dark place.
Speaker 1: Everything felt black and dark and crumbling and dying and
Speaker 1: all this sort of stuff. And you can't The thing is,
Speaker 1: you cannot run away from a bad trip. You can't
Speaker 1: run away from it. And so what I did was
Speaker 1: I almost envisioned that darkness of the bad trip is
Speaker 1: like a huge wave and you know, when you swing
Speaker 1: in the ocean and then you see also a big
Speaker 1: wave coming, you can't run from it, because then you'll
Speaker 1: get you know, crash on you, you'll tumbling, you might
Speaker 1: hurt yourself. The only choice when a big wave is
Speaker 1: coming is to dive into it, dive underneath it, dive
Speaker 1: through it. And so I practically, like musically, almost dived
Speaker 1: into the sand. But like you know, I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: literally in a way or you know, a metaphorically, the
Speaker 1: way was into the way of the darkness, and I
Speaker 1: kind of came out of it. I came out of it,
Speaker 1: and all of the things just lifted and it became
Speaker 1: this magnificent trip for the rest of it. So I
Speaker 1: would say, you're right to tell her, don't worry about
Speaker 1: the bad one. It's highly unlikely. You have friends around
Speaker 1: who can take care of you. Don't worry about your
Speaker 1: husband's reaction. If it does go in a dark place,
Speaker 1: there are ways to deal with it. And whatever case,
Speaker 1: even if it is dark, you're gonna get better in
Speaker 1: a few hours and you'll be fine the next day.
Speaker 1: And many times people say they find that even going
Speaker 1: into a dark place on mushrooms are ayahuasca they may
Speaker 1: go through a terrifying place, especially with ayahuasca, and then
Speaker 1: the next day they said, my god, that was the
Speaker 1: most magnificent experience in my life because of how much
Speaker 1: I've learned, how much I've benefited. Yeah, so I would
Speaker 1: just say to lower the dosage compared to what your
Speaker 1: friends are taking, you know, just for you in beginning,
Speaker 1: Just take half so that you're not going to be,
Speaker 1: you know, out of control, and then if you like it,
Speaker 1: you can take more. Yes. Great, Well, we have our
Speaker 1: first caller of the day today. This is Annie. Annie says,
Speaker 1: dear Chelsea. I was diagnosed with complex PTSD about fifteen
Speaker 1: years ago, but I've struggled with it for over twenty years.
Speaker 1: I've tried many different forms of therapies, medications, and THHC,
Speaker 1: which have helped some but never completely. My symptoms have
Speaker 1: become much worse during the last few years, with running
Speaker 1: from fires in California, COVID, and just the general ship
Speaker 1: show that is our world. I'm now struggling to leave
Speaker 1: the house, and I've been isolating myself to an extreme.
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure I'm bordering on agoraphobia. Even my work
Speaker 1: zooms have become a source of anxiety. I'm planning to
Speaker 1: email my doctor to talk to him about some beta
Speaker 1: blockers to help with the short term issues. I heard
Speaker 1: you talk about this on your show the other day,
Speaker 1: and I have never tried them before. My question to
Speaker 1: you is, I'm considering some alternative treatments, including micro dosing, psilocybin,
Speaker 1: m D m A, or therapeutic ketamine. I've read that
Speaker 1: in some instances they are curing PTSD with these treatments,
Speaker 1: which I had been told would never be possible. I'd
Speaker 1: rather try psilocybin, but that seems less legal at the
Speaker 1: moment and harder to come by. I feel lost in
Speaker 1: trying to figure out who to talk to about this.
Speaker 1: My doctor is pretty judgmental, and I would never bring
Speaker 1: this up to him. Do you have any advice on
Speaker 1: resources to learn more about these types of treatments. I've
Speaker 1: obviously googled it, but I'm not sure who to trust.
Speaker 1: I can't be the only one whose symptoms have become
Speaker 1: much worse during this COVID apocalypse time. Thank you both
Speaker 1: for doing what you do. Your show has been a
Speaker 1: great source of comfort and much needed laughter. Annie. Hi, Annie, Hi,
Speaker 1: Annie h that's Ethan he's our guest today. I'm so
Speaker 1: sorry that you're dealing with this. Annie. Oh thank you,
Speaker 1: But just know that this is temporary. You're not going
Speaker 1: to feel like this forever, and you're not alone. So
Speaker 1: many people feel like this after COVID and have anxiety,
Speaker 1: and you know there are ways to fix it. But Ethan,
Speaker 1: do you want to start with some resources, because you're
Speaker 1: probably the man for that. Just a few things. I mean,
Speaker 1: first of all, I think when it comes to microdo
Speaker 1: is saying with mushrooms or something like that, if you
Speaker 1: can get a hold of them, even just you know,
Speaker 1: not even pure philocide mushrooms, there's relatively little risk with
Speaker 1: doing that at a very very low level. I mean,
Speaker 1: maybe it helps, maybe not, if there's not much evidence
Speaker 1: on it. I think the place I'd start is with ketamine,
Speaker 1: because ketamine is legal, and I think the first place
Speaker 1: I probably the godfather of ketamine assisted psychotherapy as a
Speaker 1: fellow named Phil Wilson up in Marin County in California,
Speaker 1: and he's got a whole bunch of websites, So just
Speaker 1: Google and Phil Wilson and kennamine. One of his top
Speaker 1: proteges is a doctor in the New York area. Gita
Speaker 1: bade I actually interviewed her on my podcast Psychoactive not
Speaker 1: long ago, and she speaks about the art of doing
Speaker 1: psychotherapy assisted by ketamine, and because that's legal, it's going
Speaker 1: to be easier to access the challenges to find the
Speaker 1: best therapists, and I think starting up with Phil Wilson
Speaker 1: is a way to go. Now, m d m A
Speaker 1: is probably going to get approved by the Food and
Speaker 1: Drug Administration the FDA sometime later this year next year
Speaker 1: for treatment of Pete s D. So there are already
Speaker 1: research programs they're emitting patients. So if you just google PTSD,
Speaker 1: m d m A Psychedelic Therapists something like that, you'll
Speaker 1: probably see people popping up. The organization maps, which is
Speaker 1: the Multi Disapline Associated Psychologic Studies, has been the one
Speaker 1: driving this process for with the FDA, and they're training
Speaker 1: people all around the country to be therapists. So that's
Speaker 1: probably the other place I would look. And once you
Speaker 1: start nosing around, then people will start to recommend to
Speaker 1: you therapists who are using m d m A assisted psychotherapy,
Speaker 1: not fully legally yet, but where it's becoming more and
Speaker 1: more common. Okay, thank you, do you know have you
Speaker 1: heard of maps, Annie, I have heard of MAPS. I've
Speaker 1: done some reading about it. I just yeah, it doesn't
Speaker 1: seem like it was widely available yet. So well, they
Speaker 1: basically have research programs now, so sometimes if you can
Speaker 1: still get into one of those. But once you start
Speaker 1: calling around, people will let you know about psychotherapists who
Speaker 1: are provide being this sort of help, either using psilocybin
Speaker 1: or m D M A, but starting off with ketamine
Speaker 1: simply because it's legal. Just finding the right therapist I
Speaker 1: think really is the way to go. Okay, perfect, thank you.
Speaker 1: And what state are you in, Annie, I'm in California.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, Well that's easy to find in California guided
Speaker 1: kenemine trips. I have a few friends that are doing that.
Speaker 1: Oh okay, I didn't know that that was really a
Speaker 1: thing here. I've seen it like in southern California, but
Speaker 1: I'm in northern California. Phill Wilson is right up in
Speaker 1: Marin and he's the godfather of kenemine. So definitely check
Speaker 1: out his website and see what you can find out there. Okay, great,
Speaker 1: thank you, Yeah, and you know, try and in the meantime,
Speaker 1: Beta blockers. If you get those prescription, that's a short
Speaker 1: term solution, but it also does kind of the neuropathways.
Speaker 1: It changes those. In my experience, I've taken beta blockers
Speaker 1: and you don't have to take them all the time.
Speaker 1: You take them and it kind of sets up a
Speaker 1: new pattern of thoughts so that you don't get that
Speaker 1: nervous energy. I do look at it as a short
Speaker 1: term solution. I think that the ketamine and everything else
Speaker 1: is a deeper, more spiritual solut san to you know,
Speaker 1: the anxiety and the discomfort you're feeling. Yeah, there's also
Speaker 1: a brilliant doctor writer think her name Julie Holland, who
Speaker 1: talks a lot about this stuff. So just google Julie
Speaker 1: Holland and I think you'll come across some interesting information
Speaker 1: as well. Thank you. Okay, Annie, take care. Let let
Speaker 1: us know how it go. Yeah, let us know how
Speaker 1: it goes. Okay, Well, thank you so much. Sure, all right, Well,
Speaker 1: our next question comes from Katie. Katie asks, dear Chelsea
Speaker 1: on the show, I heard you talking about micro dosing
Speaker 1: chocolate mushrooms. I'm an elementary school special ed teacher, and
Speaker 1: my weed and zan X intake increased substantially over the pandemic.
Speaker 1: I talked to her a little bit about it, and
Speaker 1: her zanex increase was really linked to a really high
Speaker 1: stress job that she had. I'm looking to take a
Speaker 1: break from the weed, but I know I'll be very unpleasant.
Speaker 1: I'm curious about the chocolate fung guy and where it
Speaker 1: can find them safely. Thanks Katie, and she's actually here
Speaker 1: with us on the phone as well. Hi Katie, Hi there. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think mushrooms are a great pivot for you. Are
Speaker 1: mushrooms legal? What? What states legally sell mushrooms? Ethan? No,
Speaker 1: there's no place where its legal, although if you figure
Speaker 1: out a way to grow it, there's all these sort
Speaker 1: of guys to growing you at home, and so large
Speaker 1: numbers of people are doing that now. I'll also tell
Speaker 1: you I don't know where you are, but like here
Speaker 1: in New York City where they have all these marijuanna
Speaker 1: delivery services that are still illegal, but nobody's going after
Speaker 1: them anymore. More and more of them are selling chocolate mushrooms.
Speaker 1: I mean, I've now seen these menus which used to
Speaker 1: just be different types of marijuana edible and smokable, and
Speaker 1: now they're including you know, mushrooms in little powders and
Speaker 1: mushrooms and chocolate. So you know, if you if you know,
Speaker 1: where do you live. I live in New England and
Speaker 1: I use a delivery one of those you know, same
Speaker 1: type of things, so I'll have to check that out.
Speaker 1: I haven't even bothered to look at their edibles. M hmm. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Just ask your delivery service if they happen to vide
Speaker 1: mushrooms and if they don't, if they know somebody who does.
Speaker 1: Because I'm amazed and how much this it is taken
Speaker 1: off in the marijuana delivery world, that you're carrying these
Speaker 1: things as well. Yeah, that's been my biggest issue is
Speaker 1: being you know, old enough to know that online is
Speaker 1: not where it's at to be trusted necessarily, and then
Speaker 1: not being young enough to really know anybody that's still
Speaker 1: growing or got stuff like that around, And so I
Speaker 1: was kind of stuck. And my doctor was more concerned
Speaker 1: with the xan x used leading to Alzheimer's more than
Speaker 1: anything else, which kind of scared me. And then that
Speaker 1: was kind of like, Okay, I really like to back
Speaker 1: off of that and not need it so much. So
Speaker 1: if I had a different option other than the weed
Speaker 1: that would be great because at this point I just
Speaker 1: smoke all the time. What about with weed? I mean,
Speaker 1: because the Zannex is the one from a health perspective,
Speaker 1: it has a lot more risks, and weed has relatively
Speaker 1: fewer risks. And it might be a matter of changing
Speaker 1: the way you're consuming weed or the you know, maybe
Speaker 1: shifting to a drink couple of self with low THHC
Speaker 1: content in it, and those can be kind of nice.
Speaker 1: I don't already tried that. Yeah, my issue is that
Speaker 1: I my consumption is just off the charts, and like
Speaker 1: I'd make my own tincture that's a hundred twenty milligrams
Speaker 1: per melo leader and make my own gummies and sometimes
Speaker 1: feel them. Chelsea talked about chocolate mushrooms as as an alternative,
Speaker 1: and I was really curious about it. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: what Ethan said is pretty accurate. Though, Like anyone who's
Speaker 1: delivering weed is also delivering mushrooms because they're everywhere. Everywhere
Speaker 1: I go, somebody hands me mushrooms. I wish I could
Speaker 1: hand them to you right now. I want to go
Speaker 1: to there. But yeah, but yeah, you you should investigate
Speaker 1: and if it's not that we delivery service, that you're using,
Speaker 1: look for some other ones, because I guarantee you'll find
Speaker 1: them there. You know. Just don't overdo it when you're
Speaker 1: trying mushrooms for the first time. Again, make sure you're
Speaker 1: just doing like a half a dose to see how
Speaker 1: what your reaction is. And then once you're comfortable with it,
Speaker 1: you know how to tightrate or increase or whatever you're after,
Speaker 1: which is relief. Yeah, I was gonna say, what is it?
Speaker 1: How would you describe that feeling well with mushrooms? I
Speaker 1: find that I just have a lot of clarity and
Speaker 1: I feel up. If I take chocolate mushrooms, Like with
Speaker 1: my girlfriends, I'll take more to laugh, you know, and
Speaker 1: just be silly, but mostly I take them, you know.
Speaker 1: I took one yesterday. My friend had some mushroom morning mushrooms,
Speaker 1: and it had like all these other ingredients in it
Speaker 1: that we're just like wake up natural ingredients and and
Speaker 1: herbs and stuff like that. So and that stuff is
Speaker 1: just so minimal. You just feel a little bit more
Speaker 1: clarity and just a little sharper, you know, on it,
Speaker 1: and upbeat and ready to go, kind of like a
Speaker 1: cup of coffee without it. I was just gonna say,
Speaker 1: my TikTok algorithm locked on into sending me mudwater. Is
Speaker 1: that something similar to what you're talking about? Yeah, the
Speaker 1: mudwater is. I love it. I think it's very tasty,
Speaker 1: but it's a little bit more of like a coffee
Speaker 1: substitute rather than Yeah, it's like adapt to gen mushrooms
Speaker 1: for health and and that sort of thing. But it's tasty,
Speaker 1: it tastes like ty t you know, but not gonna
Speaker 1: get you high. No. So here's one more question too.
Speaker 1: Would you both suggest that she sort of tapered down
Speaker 1: the marijuana use before trying the mushrooms or use them
Speaker 1: in conjunction with each other. Well, what's the negative effect
Speaker 1: of the marijuana use now? For you? I mean my
Speaker 1: bank account? Um, but I have a home garden with
Speaker 1: all a bunch of tomato plants and then one one
Speaker 1: lovely little sativa. So I'm, you know, trying that way.
Speaker 1: But other than the fact that I'm spending a lot
Speaker 1: of money and don't really get high anymore unless it's
Speaker 1: you know, what people would consider way overdoing it, Like
Speaker 1: I went through like a half an ounce in the
Speaker 1: last week. Yeah, so your tolerance is pretty high. Yeah,
Speaker 1: because some people use marijuana as heavily as you do,
Speaker 1: it's because you're getting some medical benefit from it. I
Speaker 1: mean it may be serving this anti anxiety purpose definitely
Speaker 1: is trying to pull back on the zanys and maybe
Speaker 1: figuring out a more cost effective way, the most cost
Speaker 1: effective way to be consuming the marijuana. And I think
Speaker 1: if you're gonna do the mushrooms, I don't know that
Speaker 1: you need to cut back on the marijuana. You know,
Speaker 1: it's there are different substances. They operate differently on your brain.
Speaker 1: And if you're doing is Chelsea you suggest doing with
Speaker 1: a little micro dose thing or smaller dose try it.
Speaker 1: I mean, look, for me, the advantage of not using
Speaker 1: cannabis every day is that when I get high, I
Speaker 1: really enjoy getting high. Yeah, I miss that. I think
Speaker 1: I'd more look at it through that lens to see
Speaker 1: if you, in fact you can taper off on cannabis
Speaker 1: or have some you know, a cannabis free day or
Speaker 1: like each week or something like that, and just see
Speaker 1: what that feels like. And then you can decide whether
Speaker 1: you want to try something like a low dose mushroom,
Speaker 1: either on your off marijuana day or even on the
Speaker 1: days you're doing marijuana. Okay, I'm definitely curious. I might
Speaker 1: now that I know it's it's in New York. I'm
Speaker 1: I'm ahead of there in a couple of days, so
Speaker 1: I should tell you New York they haven't actually opened
Speaker 1: up the doors for legal sale until the beginning of
Speaker 1: the year, so so it would still be a deliver
Speaker 1: Your service will be delivery. Some places are opening up
Speaker 1: anyway and sort of daring the cops to addrest them
Speaker 1: so you can find them. Yeah, I mean, they've got
Speaker 1: better things to do at this point, really exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but you can easily find a delivery service. I mean,
Speaker 1: that's what everybody in New York City does, you know,
Speaker 1: if you get it delivered, So whoever you're staying with,
Speaker 1: you could figure that out easily. Awesome. That's so great
Speaker 1: to know. Well, I really appreciate your your advice, and
Speaker 1: you know, it was cool to get to chat and
Speaker 1: something that I wouldn't normally get to have a conversation
Speaker 1: with on like an educated level. So that's pretty cool.
Speaker 1: I appreciate it. Awesome, Awesome, Good luck to you. Keep
Speaker 1: us posting alright, alright, by well, our next question really
Speaker 1: fits well into what we just talked about with Katie
Speaker 1: Carrie wrote in She Says, Dear Chelsea. I've been dating
Speaker 1: my boyfriend for four years now. We're in our late twenties.
Speaker 1: He's always very openly loved smoking weed. I don't personally
Speaker 1: partake very often because it makes my anxiety worse, but
Speaker 1: lots of my friends and family do, so I'm very
Speaker 1: familiar with being around it. In the early years of
Speaker 1: our relationship, I saw no problem with his smoking because
Speaker 1: we were young. It seemed less destructive than drinking, and
Speaker 1: I didn't feel it was my place to judge. However,
Speaker 1: he's almost thirty now and he smokes every single day.
Speaker 1: He'll smoke right when he gets home from work, and
Speaker 1: again multiple times throughout the night until we go to bed.
Speaker 1: On the weekends, he smokes almost immediately after waking up.
Speaker 1: Often he can't even eat without it because he's used
Speaker 1: to relying on it to induce hunger. To his credit,
Speaker 1: his personality isn't altered much when he smokes. He doesn't
Speaker 1: get quiet or sleepy as I know some people do.
Speaker 1: I still enjoy being around him, even though he sometimes
Speaker 1: does have a bad memory because of it. My question is,
Speaker 1: how do you know when smoking we becomes a problem.
Speaker 1: We're approaching the age where we make more serious commitments
Speaker 1: like marriage and kids, and this feels like the elephant
Speaker 1: in the room. I've spoken to him multiple times about this,
Speaker 1: but rather than having a conversation, he shuts down my
Speaker 1: concerns as me having an outdated and biased view of marijuana.
Speaker 1: In his opinion, there are no bad side effects, it's
Speaker 1: more widely becoming legal, and there's really no reason to
Speaker 1: stop or slow down. Since you openly enjoy weed more
Speaker 1: than I do, it might be interesting to have a
Speaker 1: perspective on when and if marijuana use can go too far.
Speaker 1: Carry ethan, why don't you hit that out of the park. Okay?
Speaker 1: What I would just say to her is basically, if
Speaker 1: he's not really seeing any problems with his youth, And
Speaker 1: then she said maybe his memory isn't as good because
Speaker 1: he's smoking weed. But I think the bottom line is basically,
Speaker 1: don't worry about it. Getting older is not an issue.
Speaker 1: He's getting defensive in the relationship with you is not
Speaker 1: going to be productive. He's already indicated he can hear
Speaker 1: criticism of that side of his life. Is quite possible
Speaker 1: that he's using this in a way that's more medical
Speaker 1: than anything else, since he's probably really not getting very
Speaker 1: high anymore. He's just using it on a very regular basis.
Speaker 1: So I can understand feeling a little irritated by the
Speaker 1: fact that that thing is always in life and it's
Speaker 1: not something you share much, and maybe even feeling a
Speaker 1: little jealous of it in some respect. But unless you
Speaker 1: can pinpoint problems with it, I would just leave it alone.
Speaker 1: And it's quite possible that the day will come and
Speaker 1: the moment will come when he comes to the conclusion
Speaker 1: that maybe he wants to stop doing it. But if
Speaker 1: he's got his backup, because you're getting more and more
Speaker 1: critical about it, I don't think that's going to go anywhere. Good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I would say the exact same thing. There's no reason,
Speaker 1: you know, it is kind of an outdated stance on it.
Speaker 1: I mean, it is becoming legal everywhere he likes using it,
Speaker 1: And again what Ethan said is perfectly accurate. At this point,
Speaker 1: he's probably not getting that much benefit from it, unless
Speaker 1: it is a health benefit, because he's certainly probably not
Speaker 1: getting high at this point. I know when I over
Speaker 1: consume marijuana, it takes so much to make me high,
Speaker 1: So yeah, you gotta kind of just like get rid
Speaker 1: of that way of thinking and you know, just be happy.
Speaker 1: It's not something like drinking or another drug. That would
Speaker 1: be a situation if somebody came home and they relied
Speaker 1: on that. You know, marijuana pretty benign and it's helpful
Speaker 1: to a lot of people. So you don't know what
Speaker 1: kind of anxiety he might have or what other body
Speaker 1: aches he might have that this is helping him with that.
Speaker 1: He might not even be aware of himself. It might
Speaker 1: just be to for him to equalize. So I would
Speaker 1: just try and say, be a little bit more open
Speaker 1: hearted and open minded. Let him do his thing, and
Speaker 1: then you do your thing. Yeah, and there's that old
Speaker 1: thing of when do you know something is addictive or
Speaker 1: becoming a problem, and it's when you have negative consequences.
Speaker 1: It sounds like he's not really having negative consequences. You know.
Speaker 1: We've had people call into the show and and say,
Speaker 1: you know, I really want to taper down my marijuana
Speaker 1: use or or that sort of thing. So I feel
Speaker 1: like if someone thinks that they do, then like, go
Speaker 1: for it. Definitely, your body is telling you something, your
Speaker 1: mind is telling you something. But it sounds like he's
Speaker 1: not having any any negative consequences other than this relationship issue. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I liked what you said that. My definition of addiction
Speaker 1: is addiction equals dependence plus problems. So if you're dependent
Speaker 1: on a drug, whether it's off you to get up
Speaker 1: in the morning, whether it's a statin for your cholesterol
Speaker 1: or a heart drug, whether it's method on because you
Speaker 1: were once addicted to heroin, it's not an addiction so
Speaker 1: long as that dependence on the drug is not a problem.
Speaker 1: And it sounds quite likely that with this guy, it
Speaker 1: sounds like it's basically a dependence, a serious dependence, but
Speaker 1: not really causing any problems. In fact, it sounds like
Speaker 1: the biggest problem is it could become a problem in
Speaker 1: his marriage, even if it's not causing him any problems
Speaker 1: in his own personal life. Apart from that. Well, on
Speaker 1: that note, we will take our break and we'll be
Speaker 1: right back with Ethan Nadelman and Chelsea. We're back, fantastic. Well, Ethan,
Speaker 1: did you have any advice you'd like to get from Chelsea? Wow, Chelsea,
Speaker 1: you know I was thinking about that. The first piece
Speaker 1: of advice, and if you is not specifically about drugs.
Speaker 1: You have this very successful podcast, and I have my
Speaker 1: podcast like a active which I'm trying to turn into
Speaker 1: a much bigger thing. So if you've got any advice
Speaker 1: about how to get a building audience for a podcast
Speaker 1: that talks about the whole spectrum of drugs and drug
Speaker 1: wars and drug policies and drug use, I'm all ears
Speaker 1: for advice about doing something like that. Well, I mean,
Speaker 1: you should book a couple of celebrity guests. I'll volunteer
Speaker 1: to come on and talk to you about drugs. That
Speaker 1: will help the first thing, Yeah, to make it a
Speaker 1: little shiny. But I've what I've learned about podcasts. How
Speaker 1: long have you had your podcast? I'm in the second
Speaker 1: season now, so we started just over a year ago. Yeah.
Speaker 1: What I've learned is that it takes a couple of
Speaker 1: years for anybody, whether you're a famous person or less
Speaker 1: famous or whatever your platform is, that it takes a
Speaker 1: few years to really build and grow. But when you
Speaker 1: have a subject matter that's so many people are interested
Speaker 1: right now and it's such a part of our zeitgeist.
Speaker 1: I mean, I have no I mean, you've got a
Speaker 1: great title, and you're very knowledgeable obviously, so I would
Speaker 1: imagine that people are very interested in hearing more of
Speaker 1: what you have to say. So I know that certainly
Speaker 1: our listeners have plenty of them, will be interested in
Speaker 1: that too. So I would just say, yeah, just keep
Speaker 1: doing it. That's how you accrue more listeners, you know,
Speaker 1: you just it happens slowly over time. Okay, great, Well
Speaker 1: I have one other question for you, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: when I used to be a professor and I wrote books,
Speaker 1: academic books and a lot of writing. But in the
Speaker 1: last and twenty years, I've been writing less and less,
Speaker 1: and now I want to write a book about my
Speaker 1: life and about drugs, and I'm kind of blocked. And
Speaker 1: I see that you've had like five or six best
Speaker 1: sellers and a lot of them about your life. So
Speaker 1: how did you actually get those books done and out
Speaker 1: with a lot of cannabis? Quite frankly, that's really that
Speaker 1: that that is the best use of cannabis that I've
Speaker 1: ever had. When I have a task at hand, a
Speaker 1: creative task, and I do all the work, but when
Speaker 1: I have to go in and polish and deliver is
Speaker 1: when I use cannabis and or mushrooms. Mushrooms also micro
Speaker 1: docing mushrooms helps me focus. But yeah, because you get
Speaker 1: organized and then you get hyper focused. Cannabis helps me
Speaker 1: lose myself in something, but I have to have the
Speaker 1: subject there, you know what I mean. Like if I
Speaker 1: go work out, I can lose myself and working out.
Speaker 1: If I'm writing, I can lose myself and writing. If
Speaker 1: I'm sitting on my bed, I'm gonna lose myself on
Speaker 1: my phone. But you just I like to choose the
Speaker 1: activity that I'm going to lose myself in. But I
Speaker 1: would definitely say cannabis has been a huge contributor to
Speaker 1: my the success of my books. Wow. Wow, Well, I'll
Speaker 1: tell you I keep meaning to start kind of microdocing
Speaker 1: mushroom routine, but I keep forgetting to do it. So
Speaker 1: it maybe that that maybe the answer for me, because
Speaker 1: sometimes I found with cannabis like I find a hard
Speaker 1: time writing with it because I sort of forget, like
Speaker 1: I lose my train of thought, you know, I forget
Speaker 1: what it was I wrote just it was just thinking
Speaker 1: a few minutes ago. It's one reason I don't like
Speaker 1: giving a speech or doing interview under the influence of cannabis,
Speaker 1: because it's problematic in that way, whereas mushrooms can be
Speaker 1: more focusing so I maybe have to make more of
Speaker 1: a serious effort there. Yeah, just put it together as
Speaker 1: your responsibility to get your book done right. You're right,
Speaker 1: and you need to start your mushroom routine. Sounds good.
Speaker 1: Sounds good, Ethan, thank you so much for being on
Speaker 1: the podcast today. I loved everything you had to say. Well,
Speaker 1: I look, I love doing it. It was great to
Speaker 1: team up with you on answering those questions, Chelsea, and
Speaker 1: I really admire so all the ways that you've been
Speaker 1: out there on the drug issue and on so many
Speaker 1: others or politics aligned very much and I appreciate both
Speaker 1: your courage and sort of really speaking, I saw you
Speaker 1: were speaking out about this drug stuff before marijuana was legal,
Speaker 1: and you were speaking about psychedelics and doing episodes about
Speaker 1: it on Netflix and all those where when this was
Speaker 1: not quite so cool and hips, so you were one
Speaker 1: of the pioneers and getting this out and I really
Speaker 1: do appreciate that. Thank you, Thanks, Sad, Thanks Okay, bye
Speaker 1: bye bye. So if you'd like advice from Chelsea, just
Speaker 1: send us an email at Dear Chelsea project at gmail
Speaker 1: dot com. Dear Chelsea is a production of I Heart
Speaker 1: Radio Executive produced by Nick Stuff produced by Catherine Law
Speaker 1: and edited and engineered by Brad Dickert.