1 00:00:05,559 --> 00:00:08,399 Speaker 1: I am Kate Hudson and my name is Oliver Hudson. 2 00:00:08,600 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: We wanted to do something that highlighted our relationships and 3 00:00:11,960 --> 00:00:23,400 Speaker 1: what it's like to be siblings. We are a sibling. Railvalry. No, no, sibling. 4 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:36,240 Speaker 1: You don't do that with your mouth, ravelry. That's good. 5 00:00:39,240 --> 00:00:44,519 Speaker 1: Today we have on psychotherapist Mark Epstein, doctor Mark Epstein, 6 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:48,240 Speaker 1: who is known for lucidly mapping the ways in which 7 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: Buddhism can enrich Western approaches to psychology. And I absolutely, 8 00:00:53,560 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 1: oh yeah, this was just it's funny timing. Timing is 9 00:00:57,800 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: a funny thing, this this interview, and it come in 10 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:03,600 Speaker 1: a better time for me. I feel good, I felt great. 11 00:01:03,680 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: I felt I felt a kind of shitty going into it. 12 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: And now I'm ready. What is your what is you 13 00:01:09,280 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: do doing? Danny Fujikawa is on a chair. Oh, he's 14 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:15,920 Speaker 1: jumping up. He's trying to see. We had this crazy 15 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 1: thing happening where we were on this call. Is a 16 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,160 Speaker 1: bird flew into the window. It was very sad, and 17 00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:25,760 Speaker 1: the bird flew into the window and then was paralyzed. 18 00:01:25,800 --> 00:01:27,920 Speaker 1: What are you doing, honey? And now Danny's trying to look. 19 00:01:27,959 --> 00:01:31,560 Speaker 1: I believe I've seen this bird up on one of 20 00:01:31,959 --> 00:01:35,039 Speaker 1: outside the house. It built a nest. I'm afraid that 21 00:01:35,080 --> 00:01:37,440 Speaker 1: it's the mom. The irony is as we were literally 22 00:01:37,480 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 1: talking about trauma, and we also were talking about Buddha 23 00:01:40,440 --> 00:01:42,720 Speaker 1: who lost his mother at one week, right, and then 24 00:01:42,760 --> 00:01:45,440 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, we hear a funk and this 25 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:48,320 Speaker 1: bird flies into the window and I had to like 26 00:01:48,360 --> 00:01:50,360 Speaker 1: go out and it's all paralyzed. It's very sad. This 27 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,880 Speaker 1: is very very sad. I'm trying to help the bird. 28 00:01:53,000 --> 00:01:57,800 Speaker 1: The bird is stunned, and then we're trying to see 29 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,160 Speaker 1: if there's a nest with eggs or babies. But that's 30 00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:05,600 Speaker 1: what happened during this interview, which at the very end 31 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:08,920 Speaker 1: of the interview, but during I mean, the irony of 32 00:02:08,960 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: that is it was we were talking so much about 33 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 1: how he integrates Buddhism into his therapy sessions. This guy 34 00:02:17,480 --> 00:02:22,000 Speaker 1: is so cool. He basically studied with all of the 35 00:02:22,040 --> 00:02:25,160 Speaker 1: people that anybody's quoting on Instagram. Yeah, they were his 36 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:28,400 Speaker 1: like mentors and teachers who we actually hung out. Yeah, 37 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 1: traveled with you know, ram Das. I'm not going to 38 00:02:31,360 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: ruin it, but there's said something to him that I 39 00:02:33,960 --> 00:02:38,320 Speaker 1: thought was incredibly profound and awesome. The only bad thing 40 00:02:38,320 --> 00:02:40,840 Speaker 1: that came out of this is I kind of want 41 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: to him do my therapist now, but I don't know. 42 00:02:43,040 --> 00:02:48,600 Speaker 1: I don't know what you're like. Are you taking new clients? 43 00:02:50,120 --> 00:02:55,120 Speaker 1: He really is wonderful. I loved talking with him. It 44 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: was inspiring and I think everybody's going to really love 45 00:02:57,919 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: listening because living is and everybody has and carries trauma. 46 00:03:05,919 --> 00:03:08,519 Speaker 1: You know. He said, if it's if you're if you're 47 00:03:08,520 --> 00:03:12,000 Speaker 1: not in post traumatic, you're you're in pre traumatic, and 48 00:03:12,080 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: I thought that was a really sort of I don't know, 49 00:03:16,440 --> 00:03:20,520 Speaker 1: it took the pressure off of anybody who feels like 50 00:03:20,560 --> 00:03:24,200 Speaker 1: they're carrying something and maybe is apologetic about it or 51 00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: feels like they shouldn't feel like they have trauma or 52 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,520 Speaker 1: they shouldn't feel like they have issues because other people's 53 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 1: problems are worse and yah YadA. But at the end 54 00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:37,640 Speaker 1: of the day, we're all just living this. Each experience 55 00:03:37,720 --> 00:03:40,960 Speaker 1: is just completely different, and his approach to it, just 56 00:03:41,040 --> 00:03:45,400 Speaker 1: being so present in every person's experience or every client's 57 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:49,720 Speaker 1: experience as their doctor sort of was a great way 58 00:03:49,760 --> 00:03:51,520 Speaker 1: to look at like it all gives you hope that 59 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:54,360 Speaker 1: there's you can help yourself. There's a way to help yourself. 60 00:03:54,400 --> 00:03:57,120 Speaker 1: You don't have to just wallow and stay in it. Yeah, 61 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,520 Speaker 1: you know, and all of his books are a great guide. 62 00:04:00,840 --> 00:04:03,240 Speaker 1: Yeah he is. He's got quite a few working on 63 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: a new one right now. And uh, you know, read 64 00:04:06,320 --> 00:04:11,160 Speaker 1: his books and change your life. There's my uh, there's 65 00:04:11,200 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: my books. Or you could say change your life read 66 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:17,920 Speaker 1: his books. Yeah, okay, it could go either way. Trying 67 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:22,480 Speaker 1: to figure out what which was a different meaning? Yeah? 68 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,560 Speaker 1: So I I really, I really am so happy that 69 00:04:25,600 --> 00:04:27,679 Speaker 1: he came and joined us. And I hope that everybody 70 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:31,000 Speaker 1: gets something from this and and and that everybody you know, 71 00:04:31,080 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: gets over themselves, because that's basically what this is, all right, 72 00:04:34,080 --> 00:04:37,440 Speaker 1: get over yourself yourself. I'm trying right now as you're 73 00:04:37,480 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: listening to me, and here is doctor Mark Epstein. Hi, Hi, there, 74 00:04:49,320 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 1: you're you're you know, it's it's the irony of having 75 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:55,600 Speaker 1: you on today is amazing. Can I share with him 76 00:04:55,600 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: what just HAPs? So? Oliver? Oliver just got off of 77 00:05:00,120 --> 00:05:05,320 Speaker 1: his antidepressants and is having a hard time. Oh, we 78 00:05:05,400 --> 00:05:09,159 Speaker 1: can talk about it. I took a walk this morning 79 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: listening to your book. Well that didn't help. No, I 80 00:05:13,440 --> 00:05:18,720 Speaker 1: was devastated. I was like I'm so good morning. I'm 81 00:05:19,320 --> 00:05:22,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna listen to the Doctor's book. You know, I 82 00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:26,880 Speaker 1: totally vibe with his philosophies of this integration of Western 83 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:29,640 Speaker 1: Eastern and it's gonna be good. And then I just 84 00:05:29,760 --> 00:05:35,799 Speaker 1: it's hard to feel good doing anything, feeling good, feeling. 85 00:05:35,880 --> 00:05:38,320 Speaker 1: If you set feeling good up as like what you 86 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:42,200 Speaker 1: have to be feeling, then you're just creating another thing 87 00:05:42,400 --> 00:05:46,400 Speaker 1: that you're failing at, you know, right, feeling whatever you're feeling. 88 00:05:46,600 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: If you're gonna do the meditation thing, feeling whatever you're 89 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: feeling and making room for it, really accepting, really accepting, 90 00:05:54,200 --> 00:05:58,560 Speaker 1: like including the bad feelings, that's the that's it's a 91 00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:01,560 Speaker 1: very it's very hard to do that. But but if 92 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:06,479 Speaker 1: you can, if you can apply, you know, sometimes it'll 93 00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:10,040 Speaker 1: really help. I was, you know, reading all kinds of 94 00:06:10,080 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: excerpts from your books, and and one of them was 95 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:15,719 Speaker 1: talking about you were talking about how meditation can be 96 00:06:15,760 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 1: seen as an escape versus like being in life is 97 00:06:19,800 --> 00:06:23,919 Speaker 1: escaping from life, and how we can actually use meditation differently. 98 00:06:24,320 --> 00:06:28,719 Speaker 1: You're actually dealing with what's happening versus trying to not deal. 99 00:06:28,760 --> 00:06:31,200 Speaker 1: And I think that all the time. I sometimes I 100 00:06:31,680 --> 00:06:34,880 Speaker 1: have friends who get in these like kicks, and it's like, 101 00:06:34,920 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 1: what are you what are you doing using this to 102 00:06:38,800 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 1: avoid your life? Right like the whole that's the opposite 103 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,320 Speaker 1: of what all of this is for. But you know 104 00:06:45,120 --> 00:06:47,640 Speaker 1: enough about all of you, enough about me, and don't 105 00:06:47,680 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: mind if I don't mind if I just break down 106 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:54,680 Speaker 1: in tears every thirty minutes or that's a good sign 107 00:06:54,720 --> 00:06:57,480 Speaker 1: in Sarah. Yes, I just want to like get right 108 00:06:57,520 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: into sort of where this journey of Buddhism and you know, psychotherapy, 109 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:07,119 Speaker 1: how that all began, like where it started for you? Well, 110 00:07:07,279 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: how it really started. I'll tell you. It started in 111 00:07:11,800 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 1: my first year in college. So I was, you know, 112 00:07:14,880 --> 00:07:18,760 Speaker 1: eighteen years old or whatever, and I came from a secular, 113 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: you know, Jewish secular background where academia was the religion 114 00:07:24,240 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: of my household, you know, but no spirituality, no religion. 115 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: I wasn't interested in it. But my first year in college, 116 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 1: I met a girl right away the first week of 117 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,440 Speaker 1: school and she was taking an Introduction to World Religion 118 00:07:39,480 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 1: class and I was like, introduction to world religion? You know, 119 00:07:44,800 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: that would have never occurred to me to take that class, 120 00:07:48,360 --> 00:07:52,040 Speaker 1: but because she was taking it, and it satisfied a requirement, 121 00:07:53,360 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: I decided I would take it too. And the whole 122 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: first semester was Eastern Religion and the second semester was 123 00:08:00,960 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: Western Religion and the easstern religion stuff. I was fascinated 124 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 1: by the dow teaching, you know. And then there's a 125 00:08:11,000 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: collection of Buddhist verse called the Damapata, which was Buddhist 126 00:08:17,600 --> 00:08:22,840 Speaker 1: instruction for householders, you know, in simple language, and that 127 00:08:22,960 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: was my favorite book and the whole course, and they 128 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:29,160 Speaker 1: had a chapter about the mind. You know, the uncontrolled 129 00:08:29,200 --> 00:08:32,840 Speaker 1: mind is like a fish thrown on dry ground, flapping 130 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: all the time. And I was like, oh, that's me. 131 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:41,880 Speaker 1: So that sort of primed me. I was the Western 132 00:08:41,920 --> 00:08:45,400 Speaker 1: religion part of the course was of a lot less 133 00:08:45,440 --> 00:08:48,920 Speaker 1: interest to me. But then everywhere I went in the 134 00:08:48,960 --> 00:08:55,200 Speaker 1: psychology department there was I walked into a graduate student 135 00:08:55,320 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: teaching room and the graduate student there had just come 136 00:08:59,760 --> 00:09:03,080 Speaker 1: back from India and was wearing these purple bell bottomed 137 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:05,520 Speaker 1: pants and had this long, frizzy hair, and I was like, 138 00:09:05,840 --> 00:09:08,240 Speaker 1: he knows something, he has something that I want. That 139 00:09:08,440 --> 00:09:13,280 Speaker 1: was it was this guy. Remember his bell bottom? Yeah, 140 00:09:13,320 --> 00:09:16,280 Speaker 1: there was the purple bell bottom. Really when Corridoraly purple 141 00:09:16,360 --> 00:09:19,480 Speaker 1: corda I want can we find I want them? It 142 00:09:19,559 --> 00:09:24,360 Speaker 1: looked right to me at the time, was nineteen seventy two, 143 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:27,439 Speaker 1: and he had he was a friend of ramdas As. 144 00:09:27,480 --> 00:09:29,760 Speaker 1: Little did I know he had already been in India 145 00:09:29,760 --> 00:09:31,880 Speaker 1: with Ramdas and had just come back to go to 146 00:09:31,880 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: graduate school in psychology. And I made friends with him 147 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,640 Speaker 1: and was like, you know, where how can I learn 148 00:09:38,679 --> 00:09:41,719 Speaker 1: what you what you know? And he said, go out 149 00:09:41,760 --> 00:09:45,000 Speaker 1: to this place in Colorado called Naropa Institute that was 150 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,199 Speaker 1: just starting. It was nineteen seventy four by then. And 151 00:09:49,679 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: I listened to him and went there and Ramdas, Joseph Goldstein, 152 00:09:54,080 --> 00:09:58,560 Speaker 1: Jack Cornfield, Sharon Salzburg. It was like the New York 153 00:09:58,640 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 1: art world and the spiritual right in the center of Mecca. 154 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:08,840 Speaker 1: I thought it was Woodstock, you know, like the psychological woodstock. 155 00:10:09,200 --> 00:10:12,120 Speaker 1: It was. It was. I was too young for Woodstock, 156 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,000 Speaker 1: but at least I made it to Naropa and I 157 00:10:16,080 --> 00:10:19,360 Speaker 1: just I just devoured it. I took you know, I 158 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:23,320 Speaker 1: took meditation classes from Joseph Goldstein and Jack Cornfield. I 159 00:10:23,360 --> 00:10:26,240 Speaker 1: made friends with all of them, and I was like 160 00:10:26,280 --> 00:10:28,560 Speaker 1: a little puppy dog sort of, you know. They were 161 00:10:28,600 --> 00:10:31,080 Speaker 1: ten years older than I was, but they they took 162 00:10:31,120 --> 00:10:35,120 Speaker 1: me on and I ended up traveling with them in India. 163 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:38,680 Speaker 1: I went back, went back and met all their Eastern teachers. 164 00:10:38,720 --> 00:10:41,760 Speaker 1: With them, we went to bern and Thailand and Sri 165 00:10:41,880 --> 00:10:45,040 Speaker 1: Lanka and you know, to the Dalai Lama. I traveled 166 00:10:45,040 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 1: all around. And then I went to medical school. So 167 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:52,080 Speaker 1: I decided I had been brought up. My father was 168 00:10:52,120 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: an academic physician who wanted me to go to medical school, 169 00:10:57,480 --> 00:10:59,760 Speaker 1: and I was like, I'm never going to medical school. 170 00:11:01,360 --> 00:11:07,400 Speaker 1: But finally, after all the immersion in Eastern spirituality, I 171 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 1: was I had to figure out what I was going 172 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:11,679 Speaker 1: to do with my life, you know, and I and 173 00:11:11,760 --> 00:11:15,240 Speaker 1: I had the idea that maybe I could blend the 174 00:11:15,400 --> 00:11:18,600 Speaker 1: Eastern stuff. I went to medical school with the idea 175 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,000 Speaker 1: of becoming a psychiatrist, and so nobody else in the 176 00:11:22,040 --> 00:11:24,880 Speaker 1: class wanted to be a psychiatrist, so I sort of 177 00:11:24,920 --> 00:11:29,800 Speaker 1: had the field all of myself. So then so that started. 178 00:11:29,840 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: Then I was like always looking at what I learned 179 00:11:33,160 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 1: about psychiatry through a Buddhist lens, because I was already 180 00:11:38,080 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 1: So did you know that you were going to try 181 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 1: to integrate the two once you I had that idea. Yeah, 182 00:11:45,160 --> 00:11:49,320 Speaker 1: that was That was my motivation. And when I got 183 00:11:49,320 --> 00:11:52,680 Speaker 1: to medical school. I went to Harvard Medical School, and 184 00:11:52,720 --> 00:11:55,040 Speaker 1: when I got there, I freaked out because I was 185 00:11:55,080 --> 00:11:58,840 Speaker 1: surrounded by all these people who really were new science 186 00:11:59,120 --> 00:12:03,160 Speaker 1: better than I did. And the curriculum was you had 187 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 1: to memorize like these these big, big they called them camels. 188 00:12:07,240 --> 00:12:10,880 Speaker 1: They were big books full of information, and you had 189 00:12:10,920 --> 00:12:14,760 Speaker 1: to like swallow, digest, memorize, and spit back all this stuff. 190 00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:17,120 Speaker 1: And I thought this is too much for me, and 191 00:12:17,160 --> 00:12:19,480 Speaker 1: I tried to drop out and go to social work school, 192 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: but everybody looked at me like I was crazy dropping 193 00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:27,160 Speaker 1: out of Harvard Medical School. So I stayed with it. 194 00:12:27,240 --> 00:12:31,200 Speaker 1: But I did it with the idea of trying to 195 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 1: blend that stuff, which I started to do, you know, 196 00:12:34,960 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: once I got out of in my last year of 197 00:12:36,760 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: medical school. Actually I started to do that. Just for 198 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:45,400 Speaker 1: people who don't know the difference between psychiatry and psychology 199 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:49,880 Speaker 1: is what psychiatry means, you went to medical school, which 200 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:54,280 Speaker 1: means you can prescribe drugs, and it means as part 201 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:57,080 Speaker 1: of you, as part of your education, you had to 202 00:12:57,200 --> 00:13:01,240 Speaker 1: learn everything that you learned in medical school. So all 203 00:13:01,760 --> 00:13:06,840 Speaker 1: cancer and heart disease and emphysima. You learn about the 204 00:13:06,880 --> 00:13:11,560 Speaker 1: pathology of the human body and the human mind. And 205 00:13:11,720 --> 00:13:13,400 Speaker 1: when you finish all that, you have to do a 206 00:13:13,400 --> 00:13:18,319 Speaker 1: medical internship and then you do three years of specialty 207 00:13:18,360 --> 00:13:21,880 Speaker 1: training in psychiatry. So it's equivalent if you were going 208 00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:25,480 Speaker 1: to be an antithesiologist or an obstetrician or a pediatrician. 209 00:13:25,880 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 1: You have the same basic education and then you specialize 210 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:33,720 Speaker 1: after you graduate from medical school. Psychology, there are various 211 00:13:33,760 --> 00:13:37,080 Speaker 1: ways to be a psychologist or a psychotherapist. You can 212 00:13:37,120 --> 00:13:41,120 Speaker 1: get a five year clinical psychology degree, or a two 213 00:13:41,240 --> 00:13:45,800 Speaker 1: or three year social work degree, or a PSID, which 214 00:13:45,880 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: is a PhD in education. There all these different roots 215 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:52,640 Speaker 1: to becoming a psychologist, but the main difference is that 216 00:13:52,679 --> 00:13:55,880 Speaker 1: the psychiatrist ends up being able to prescribe and sort 217 00:13:55,920 --> 00:13:59,559 Speaker 1: of speaks the medical language a psychotherapist and a psychologist. 218 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: Is there a Is there a difference between a psychologist 219 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: would have a specific degree, they would have a certain 220 00:14:05,960 --> 00:14:10,280 Speaker 1: kind of training. Almost anybody can call themselves a psychotherapist, 221 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: and there are in every state, like in California, you 222 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:16,880 Speaker 1: can be a marriage and forget what they call it 223 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,600 Speaker 1: a marriage and family counselor. I think they have special 224 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:23,120 Speaker 1: degrees in California, you know, to become a psychiatrist. I 225 00:14:23,120 --> 00:14:26,440 Speaker 1: could have learned everything that I needed to know as 226 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 1: a psychiatrist in about, you know, six months of medical school, 227 00:14:30,800 --> 00:14:34,800 Speaker 1: but instead it was four years worth of stuff. But 228 00:14:34,960 --> 00:14:38,600 Speaker 1: it ends up being useful to know. People come in there, 229 00:14:40,080 --> 00:14:42,440 Speaker 1: you know, something's wrong with them physically, and I can 230 00:14:42,520 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: understand what the issues are and what the treatments are, 231 00:14:45,320 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: and you know, speak to their doctors if I need to. 232 00:14:48,400 --> 00:14:50,880 Speaker 1: I thought, I knew that that was the difference, but 233 00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: I didn't realize it was exactly the same amount of school. 234 00:14:55,280 --> 00:14:57,800 Speaker 1: That's intense why I decided to do the medical thing, 235 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: because if I was going to do a doctor clinical psychology, 236 00:15:01,560 --> 00:15:04,320 Speaker 1: you know, it was the same number of years and yeah, 237 00:15:05,680 --> 00:15:08,680 Speaker 1: and everyone told me I would have more authority in 238 00:15:08,720 --> 00:15:11,440 Speaker 1: the world if I had the medical degree, given what 239 00:15:11,520 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: I wanted to do, which was to you know, talk 240 00:15:14,360 --> 00:15:18,640 Speaker 1: about Buddhism, and that that turned out to be true. 241 00:15:18,280 --> 00:15:20,640 Speaker 1: That I think people listened to me because they saw 242 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: the Harvard Medical School thing and the MD and they thought, well, 243 00:15:24,520 --> 00:15:27,240 Speaker 1: at least we should give them a chance to write. 244 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,600 Speaker 1: When you were seeing all of this sort of medical 245 00:15:32,320 --> 00:15:37,640 Speaker 1: jargon through a Buddhist I in college, were you did 246 00:15:37,720 --> 00:15:40,040 Speaker 1: you bring that into the classroom, Like, did you ever 247 00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:46,000 Speaker 1: challenge teachers about these? Well? In college, the I was. 248 00:15:46,120 --> 00:15:49,720 Speaker 1: I really studied more Buddhism than I did psychology because 249 00:15:49,760 --> 00:15:53,840 Speaker 1: I found all these uh, sort of undercover Buddhists who 250 00:15:53,880 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: were already graduate students and young teachers, you know, at 251 00:15:58,240 --> 00:16:03,520 Speaker 1: Harvard in medical school and in my really in my residency, 252 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:06,440 Speaker 1: because I had to do these three years of training 253 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:12,160 Speaker 1: as a psychiatrist where being supervised by all these senior 254 00:16:12,200 --> 00:16:15,440 Speaker 1: years in those days psychoanalysts, you know, sort of scary 255 00:16:15,480 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 1: psychoanalytic types. And I had a friend in Boston who 256 00:16:21,400 --> 00:16:24,200 Speaker 1: was a Sufi psychiatrist, I think he was the only 257 00:16:24,240 --> 00:16:27,640 Speaker 1: Sufi psychiatrist in America at the time, who told me 258 00:16:27,920 --> 00:16:30,320 Speaker 1: when I went to do my residency, I was studying 259 00:16:30,400 --> 00:16:33,960 Speaker 1: under this guy named Otto Kernberg, who was a very 260 00:16:33,960 --> 00:16:37,760 Speaker 1: fierce He had a very fierce reputation. My Sufi psychiatrist's 261 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:40,880 Speaker 1: friend said, if you tell Otto Kernberg what you're interested in, 262 00:16:40,960 --> 00:16:45,360 Speaker 1: he will eat you alive. So I very diligently kept 263 00:16:45,400 --> 00:16:48,280 Speaker 1: my all my Buddhist leanings very quiet while I did 264 00:16:48,280 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 1: my training. And then I had Auto Kermberg as a supervisor, 265 00:16:54,240 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: and I liked him. He really helped me with my patients, 266 00:16:58,760 --> 00:17:02,480 Speaker 1: and I started to dive you know, oh, actually I'm 267 00:17:02,520 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: interested in this Buddhist stuff. Then it turned out all 268 00:17:05,359 --> 00:17:08,639 Speaker 1: the psychiatrists who were working at this hospital, they were 269 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:10,760 Speaker 1: all open to it and interested in it. And I 270 00:17:10,800 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 1: had been keeping it in the closet, you know, for 271 00:17:14,160 --> 00:17:17,120 Speaker 1: no good reason. It was starting to it was starting 272 00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:22,399 Speaker 1: to come out of the counterculture into the mainstream in 273 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:25,560 Speaker 1: those years in the eighties. Yeah, we know that a 274 00:17:25,600 --> 00:17:28,479 Speaker 1: lot of the practices that exist in Buddhism are actually 275 00:17:28,480 --> 00:17:32,560 Speaker 1: good for our brains and can help expand our awareness 276 00:17:32,600 --> 00:17:35,159 Speaker 1: and our consciousness and all of this. How do you 277 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:38,800 Speaker 1: connect that to a patient? Well, okay, so here's the thing. 278 00:17:39,960 --> 00:17:42,719 Speaker 1: So I was around in all those early years. I 279 00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: was around all the people who did the groundbreaking work 280 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: about how meditation is good for your brain and good 281 00:17:48,680 --> 00:17:53,160 Speaker 1: for your blood pressure, and you know, trying to investigate 282 00:17:53,200 --> 00:17:56,520 Speaker 1: research wise what happens in the brain when you're meditating, 283 00:17:56,680 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: you know, And I was, I was in sit in that, 284 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,480 Speaker 1: but I wasn't so interested in that that that's how 285 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 1: I wanted to make my career. I really wanted to 286 00:18:06,720 --> 00:18:09,919 Speaker 1: be a psychotherapist and work one on one with people. 287 00:18:10,600 --> 00:18:15,240 Speaker 1: So I took the route personally of learning what I 288 00:18:15,280 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: could really learn about being a good therapist, not worrying 289 00:18:18,920 --> 00:18:24,119 Speaker 1: about teaching patients' mindfulness or getting them to lower their 290 00:18:24,119 --> 00:18:27,040 Speaker 1: blood pressure by five points, you know, by doing the 291 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:30,960 Speaker 1: relaxation response. I really wanted to be, you know, like 292 00:18:31,040 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: what makes a therapist a good therapist? So I did 293 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,400 Speaker 1: my best to become a good therapist, and in doing that, 294 00:18:40,480 --> 00:18:44,320 Speaker 1: I kept the Buddhist thing quiet, you know, I kept 295 00:18:44,359 --> 00:18:47,960 Speaker 1: it inside. I figured if if it was really doing 296 00:18:48,000 --> 00:18:52,040 Speaker 1: anything for me personally, it should come through in the 297 00:18:52,080 --> 00:18:56,640 Speaker 1: way that I am in life. You know, my family, 298 00:18:56,760 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 1: We could talk to it another time, but at least 299 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:03,080 Speaker 1: in office, one on one with people, it should come 300 00:19:03,119 --> 00:19:07,200 Speaker 1: through in some way. And for twenty years, twenty five 301 00:19:07,280 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: years or so, that's how I operated, and I didn't 302 00:19:10,119 --> 00:19:13,719 Speaker 1: talk about it that much. If someone was interested, if 303 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:15,640 Speaker 1: I knew they were interested, I would tell them where 304 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 1: I go on retreat and who you know, Joseph Goldstein, 305 00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:22,399 Speaker 1: Jack Cornfield, Sharon Salzburg, the good teachers. They could go 306 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,160 Speaker 1: learn more and then we could talk about what their 307 00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: experience was. And the past ten years or so, I've 308 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: gotten a little freer about okay, we could actually talk 309 00:19:34,040 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 1: about spiritual stuff. The line between the emotional and the 310 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:44,560 Speaker 1: spiritual and the psychological all started to blur. So I 311 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:48,640 Speaker 1: think a good psychotherapy it is like a good meditation. 312 00:19:49,040 --> 00:19:54,040 Speaker 1: It's like a two person meditation where we're really using 313 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:58,000 Speaker 1: whatever is happening in the moment, in the relationship, in 314 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,600 Speaker 1: the conversation in the room. We're really using that to 315 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: free ourselves as best as we can from the preconceptions, 316 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,280 Speaker 1: you know, that we've brought into the room, from the 317 00:20:10,320 --> 00:20:14,520 Speaker 1: feelings that we might have that we're what we're remembering, 318 00:20:14,640 --> 00:20:18,120 Speaker 1: or what we're feeling is wrong or bad or shameful, 319 00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:20,880 Speaker 1: you know, to allow all that stuff to come up 320 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:24,840 Speaker 1: and then to expose it, to hold it in the 321 00:20:24,880 --> 00:20:28,200 Speaker 1: field of awareness, like we learned to do in meditation. 322 00:20:29,680 --> 00:20:34,640 Speaker 1: So lately I've been thinking, oh, maybe there's some kind 323 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: of you could almost call it a transmission, although that's getting, 324 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:41,400 Speaker 1: you know, pushing it a little bit, but maybe there's 325 00:20:41,400 --> 00:20:45,480 Speaker 1: some kind of experience that people can have in psychotherapy 326 00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:49,520 Speaker 1: that's analogous to what they experience in meditation. Well, do 327 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 1: you think there's a natural synergy just just overall? I mean, 328 00:20:53,880 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 1: forget about sort of the evolution, because it seems like 329 00:20:56,480 --> 00:21:00,560 Speaker 1: there's been an evolution to blur the lines right years ago, 330 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: maybe it wasn't like that. But do you think there's 331 00:21:02,560 --> 00:21:08,440 Speaker 1: a natural synergy between that Buddhist spirituality and psychotherapy. I 332 00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: think there can be, depending on the on the mind 333 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: of the psychotherapist. Like I had a conversation that always 334 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:22,679 Speaker 1: stayed with me with Ramdas who you know who he was? 335 00:21:22,760 --> 00:21:25,280 Speaker 1: He just died last year. He was Richard Albert. He 336 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:28,399 Speaker 1: was with Timothy Leary, LSD and so on. Then he 337 00:21:28,440 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: went to India became Ramdas. He was an early teacher 338 00:21:31,800 --> 00:21:34,040 Speaker 1: of mine, and then I stayed in contact with him 339 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 1: over the years. So twenty years into my training as 340 00:21:39,400 --> 00:21:42,040 Speaker 1: a psychiatrist, I went to visit him in California. He'd 341 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 1: had his stroke and I hadn't seen him in twenty years, 342 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,480 Speaker 1: and he was sort of making fun of me, and oh, 343 00:21:47,560 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: are you a Buddhist psychiatrist now you know? And I 344 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,960 Speaker 1: sort of sheepishly said I guess so. And he said, well, 345 00:21:55,520 --> 00:21:59,280 Speaker 1: do you see your patients as already free and he'd 346 00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:00,879 Speaker 1: had a stroke, so we had to He said it 347 00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:05,680 Speaker 1: very slowly. Do you see them, you know, as already free? 348 00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:11,080 Speaker 1: And that thought went really deep into me, you know, 349 00:22:11,600 --> 00:22:14,640 Speaker 1: because that's where the synergy might be, because I think 350 00:22:14,680 --> 00:22:18,560 Speaker 1: I do you know, like especially if there're synergy with 351 00:22:18,640 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: the person, you know, like when you when you when 352 00:22:21,480 --> 00:22:24,040 Speaker 1: you make a new friend and already you feel a 353 00:22:24,119 --> 00:22:27,879 Speaker 1: kind of resonance. Whi's like that with the patients. So 354 00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 1: being able to see them even if they're upset or 355 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 1: going through something bad or you know, to see there 356 00:22:37,119 --> 00:22:39,359 Speaker 1: you could call it their Buddha nature or their or 357 00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: just their soul or their specialness, you know, or their love. 358 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:46,840 Speaker 1: To see that from the start and to know that 359 00:22:46,960 --> 00:22:50,520 Speaker 1: everything we're talking about is we're trying to part the 360 00:22:51,680 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: you know, part the curtains in order to let that emerge. 361 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:58,440 Speaker 1: I think I'm operating like that. Well, that's a really 362 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: it's a really amazing thing to say. I mean, that's 363 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:04,679 Speaker 1: like so it's incredible. But you know, I think a 364 00:23:04,720 --> 00:23:07,639 Speaker 1: lot of times people do enter therapy because they feel 365 00:23:07,680 --> 00:23:10,159 Speaker 1: stuck or they feel stifled, they feel lack of that 366 00:23:10,280 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: kind of freedom. Like I always say, people say, what 367 00:23:13,200 --> 00:23:15,720 Speaker 1: is happiness or you know, I get asked these crazy 368 00:23:15,800 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: questions as if I have the answer. You know, it's 369 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:21,840 Speaker 1: like you're supposed to right, right, yeah, But for me, 370 00:23:22,119 --> 00:23:29,760 Speaker 1: like real happiness is liberation, is freedom from oneself from oneself? Yeah, 371 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,000 Speaker 1: and one thousand percent, you know, when you feel that 372 00:23:33,080 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 1: kind of like liberation of whether it be fear or 373 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:40,119 Speaker 1: how people, how you feel that you are being seen 374 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:44,359 Speaker 1: or that you see yourself or other you know, in 375 00:23:44,560 --> 00:23:48,120 Speaker 1: that is is this sort of like this pure feeling 376 00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:51,800 Speaker 1: of freedom. It's when you're listening to the driving song, 377 00:23:52,000 --> 00:23:54,199 Speaker 1: Like you're in your car and there's a song on 378 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 1: and you feel the sort of like there's no weight 379 00:23:58,320 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 1: on your shoulder and like you're hairs the wind and 380 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:08,320 Speaker 1: you're like right now, everything feels perfect, you know, And 381 00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,720 Speaker 1: that to me is freedom. And then the question is 382 00:24:11,720 --> 00:24:15,400 Speaker 1: is then you have to meet all these challenging obstacles 383 00:24:15,600 --> 00:24:21,440 Speaker 1: and egos and connections, and that can just really fuck 384 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 1: up that freedom. And so how you handle that becomes 385 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: I think such a huge part of your own well being. 386 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:31,320 Speaker 1: I guess the question is how can you live in 387 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,359 Speaker 1: a SOB convertible going down the pch on a seventy 388 00:24:35,400 --> 00:24:39,840 Speaker 1: five degree Summer day all night listening to Little Pink House, 389 00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:46,920 Speaker 1: right or Boys or Boys of Summer by Don Henley. Yeah, Africa. 390 00:24:47,200 --> 00:24:52,199 Speaker 1: How do we achieve that? That's been That's been my 391 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:55,880 Speaker 1: every book I've written has been trying to get at 392 00:24:56,280 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: at exactly that question. The very first meditation retreat that 393 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 1: I ever went on. You know, I've over the years, 394 00:25:04,000 --> 00:25:07,480 Speaker 1: I've tried to do one of these two week silent 395 00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,680 Speaker 1: retreats every year, although when we had children, I went 396 00:25:10,720 --> 00:25:15,240 Speaker 1: for eleven years without ever going. But the very first 397 00:25:15,320 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: one that I ever went on, where all you do 398 00:25:17,480 --> 00:25:21,800 Speaker 1: is you sit quietly, hour by hour, trying to pay 399 00:25:21,840 --> 00:25:24,399 Speaker 1: attention to the sensation of the breath going in the 400 00:25:24,440 --> 00:25:27,439 Speaker 1: nostrils and the breath coming out the nostrils, and the 401 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:31,879 Speaker 1: lips touching and so on, you know, practicing mindfulness, the 402 00:25:31,920 --> 00:25:35,080 Speaker 1: first retreat I ever did. After about five days of 403 00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: doing that, suddenly I was absolutely you know, filled with love, 404 00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:44,199 Speaker 1: just like in a way like and I was not. 405 00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:46,720 Speaker 1: I had not at that point, I had never really 406 00:25:46,720 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 1: been in love. You know. It wasn't like a familiar feeling. 407 00:25:50,960 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 1: But first my body started to like quiver and I 408 00:25:56,280 --> 00:26:00,320 Speaker 1: felt very light, you know, more lightness than happiness. But 409 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:03,359 Speaker 1: and then I was just filled with like waves of love. 410 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 1: It's never happened again, and I've gone on a lot 411 00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,080 Speaker 1: of retreats like where is it? Where is it? Where 412 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 1: is it? But but it made a deep impression. I 413 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:18,560 Speaker 1: think it was the equivalent of the sab Run Highway. 414 00:26:19,280 --> 00:26:23,959 Speaker 1: And it goes to that, do you see your patience 415 00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:27,600 Speaker 1: as already free? Because having the sense that, oh there's 416 00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:31,200 Speaker 1: something something about myself. I didn't know, like I'm really 417 00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:37,240 Speaker 1: capable of this kind of freedom. You know, were you 418 00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: trying to have you been trying to find that? I mean, 419 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:41,800 Speaker 1: I know, No, I didn't know it was there. No, 420 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:43,880 Speaker 1: I'm saying, I'm saying after you felt that, and you're 421 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:47,240 Speaker 1: saying I had never really got back to that place. 422 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:52,840 Speaker 1: You know, I've never gotten back to it in the 423 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:57,080 Speaker 1: intensity with which it took me the first time. But 424 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:01,800 Speaker 1: it but it became But I could see, oh, this 425 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:07,200 Speaker 1: is this is an essential aspect of my being, and 426 00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:13,720 Speaker 1: so I can feel it. I remember when my daughter, 427 00:27:13,760 --> 00:27:18,080 Speaker 1: who's now thirty four, when she was born. A couple 428 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,919 Speaker 1: of months later, we went to visit a couple of 429 00:27:20,960 --> 00:27:23,520 Speaker 1: friends in the country, and we didn't have a crib 430 00:27:23,600 --> 00:27:26,200 Speaker 1: for her. So we made a bed in a drawer 431 00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,800 Speaker 1: and she slept in a drawer. And it was like 432 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 1: two months after she was born, three months something like that, 433 00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:34,320 Speaker 1: and we got a little stone, which I hadn't been doing. 434 00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:39,160 Speaker 1: And suddenly I was with my daughter and I saw 435 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: her looking at me with love like until then I 436 00:27:42,520 --> 00:27:45,440 Speaker 1: had only been seeing her like this is just the baby. 437 00:27:45,520 --> 00:27:46,960 Speaker 1: You know. We have to take care of the baby, 438 00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:49,800 Speaker 1: like how to get changed, the diaper and everything. But 439 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: to experience that, oh, that love is there, you know, 440 00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 1: was there in her from the beginning, you know, and 441 00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:02,080 Speaker 1: my ego was closing my itself off to it, you know, 442 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,359 Speaker 1: trying to be the capable, responsible, you know, sort of 443 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:11,960 Speaker 1: obnoxious father person, husband and father. But there it was again, 444 00:28:12,480 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: you know. So I think it's there. It's knowing that 445 00:28:15,200 --> 00:28:17,640 Speaker 1: it's there and then letting it being surprised by it. 446 00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 1: And it's interesting you say that I can relate in 447 00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:22,159 Speaker 1: the way. I'm not going to get into because I've 448 00:28:22,160 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: talked about a thousand times on this podcast. But I 449 00:28:23,840 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: went to this place called the Hoffmann Institute. I'm not 450 00:28:25,920 --> 00:28:28,520 Speaker 1: sure you've heard of it. I know that we're going 451 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: to cut the we're going to go because I've talked 452 00:28:30,600 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 1: about it too much, right, But I I really it 453 00:28:33,400 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: was an incredible it will be. It was an incredible 454 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:46,840 Speaker 1: experience for me, But you leave there. But I left 455 00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:53,040 Speaker 1: there floating in a place that I didn't even know existed, 456 00:28:53,120 --> 00:28:57,160 Speaker 1: and I was almost seeing things, you know, in a 457 00:28:57,240 --> 00:29:01,280 Speaker 1: psychic sense in a way, and coincidences were no longer coincidences. 458 00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:04,840 Speaker 1: It just was like part of my entire world. That 459 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,920 Speaker 1: honeymoon phase sort of you know, drifts off and you 460 00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,120 Speaker 1: wonder if you can ever reach that again, and it's 461 00:29:10,160 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: almost depressing that shit. I was so it was. I 462 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:17,560 Speaker 1: was so capable of living in this space for like 463 00:29:17,640 --> 00:29:20,360 Speaker 1: at least two or three months after and then it fade. 464 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,760 Speaker 1: It sort of faded away, but I feel like it stuck. 465 00:29:23,560 --> 00:29:25,959 Speaker 1: I just don't live in The Buddhist thing is all 466 00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,920 Speaker 1: about integrating it. How do you How do you integrate that? 467 00:29:28,920 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: That's why they frame it all is the eightfold path. 468 00:29:31,920 --> 00:29:36,400 Speaker 1: You know, it's not just about meditation, it's also about livelihood. 469 00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: It's also about the way you speak to yourself and 470 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,280 Speaker 1: to others. It's you know, it's how you look at 471 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:45,800 Speaker 1: the world. It's how you think about the world that 472 00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:48,800 Speaker 1: you know that really helped me because I had those 473 00:29:48,800 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: early you know, I was floating also and where you know, oh, 474 00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:56,120 Speaker 1: this is the point, you know like maybe maybe uh, 475 00:29:56,240 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: I'm enlightened, you know, go running to the teacher. But but 476 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:04,880 Speaker 1: but it's really about integrating into every you know, into 477 00:30:04,920 --> 00:30:08,560 Speaker 1: your family life, into your personal life, into your work life. 478 00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: How to how to keep that, how to make it relevant, 479 00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: you know, because there are a lot of very accomplished 480 00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 1: Hoffmann Institute a therapists or Buddhist meditators. You know, they 481 00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:26,480 Speaker 1: get they get very high in their environment, but then 482 00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: they're you know, lousy to be around. Where do birds die? Well, 483 00:30:40,440 --> 00:30:42,720 Speaker 1: it's a good it's an interesting interesting you asked that 484 00:30:42,840 --> 00:30:45,360 Speaker 1: question because you can go on great courses plus and 485 00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 1: probably find out which is our new sponsor. And I 486 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,880 Speaker 1: actually had a call with them and I loved everything 487 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:57,080 Speaker 1: that they had to say. I signed up for the app. 488 00:30:57,440 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: It's basically you can learn about anything that you want 489 00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: to learn. You can go deep into mathematics, or you 490 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:07,880 Speaker 1: can learn about bee keeping and making IPAs. And it's 491 00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:12,520 Speaker 1: really cool. It's all professionals, professors if that's what it is, 492 00:31:12,640 --> 00:31:15,840 Speaker 1: or people who have been in these businesses and teaching 493 00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 1: these businesses for a long, long time. Cool. They're in 494 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:24,040 Speaker 1: thirty minute bits basically, and it's like a course, so 495 00:31:24,120 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: you can keep right up my eye. Oh I love 496 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,200 Speaker 1: this stuff, especially because we didn't go to college. Oh, 497 00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:37,040 Speaker 1: I mean I didn't you but I but but yeah, 498 00:31:37,120 --> 00:31:40,920 Speaker 1: I mean I'm always constantly wanting to learn about something. Right. 499 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 1: It's binge learning. So we've been in this, yeah, binge learning. 500 00:31:44,200 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: We've been in the world of binge watching. But this 501 00:31:46,000 --> 00:31:50,200 Speaker 1: is binge learning, so you are constantly educating yourself. Well, 502 00:31:50,200 --> 00:31:54,880 Speaker 1: you've got economics and finance, food and wine, health, fitness 503 00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:59,600 Speaker 1: and nutrition, history, hobby and leisure, literature and language, mathematics, music, 504 00:31:59,640 --> 00:32:03,280 Speaker 1: and final it's philosophy and religion. Oh I love this. 505 00:32:03,440 --> 00:32:07,680 Speaker 1: I'm telling learners, yep, I'm so into. Those are the categories, 506 00:32:07,680 --> 00:32:10,160 Speaker 1: and then of course you've got all the subcategories underneath. 507 00:32:10,200 --> 00:32:12,720 Speaker 1: But it's it's it's video. You have access to video 508 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: and audio, so you can also switch it from just 509 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:17,480 Speaker 1: audio if you wanted to listen in your car or 510 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:21,960 Speaker 1: watch the video. There's guidebooks, there's new content that's added 511 00:32:22,000 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: every single month. It's really really cool. Oh this is 512 00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,880 Speaker 1: so great. I can't wait to do this all right, 513 00:32:29,880 --> 00:32:32,760 Speaker 1: So don't miss out on this great deal. Go now 514 00:32:32,840 --> 00:32:36,720 Speaker 1: to the Great Courses plus dot com slash sibling to 515 00:32:36,720 --> 00:32:39,400 Speaker 1: get your free trial, and our listeners will also get 516 00:32:39,440 --> 00:32:43,200 Speaker 1: twenty percent off the annual membership. Again, that's the Great 517 00:32:43,320 --> 00:32:48,360 Speaker 1: Courses plus dot Com slash Sibling and our listeners will 518 00:32:48,400 --> 00:32:59,080 Speaker 1: also get twenty percent off the annual membership. Course Light, Oh, 519 00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:03,880 Speaker 1: course Light. There's only one beer out there that's literally 520 00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:08,520 Speaker 1: made to chill, Oliver, and that is cores Light. The 521 00:33:08,560 --> 00:33:11,200 Speaker 1: mountains on the bottles, they turn blue when your beer 522 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 1: is cold. That's when you know it's time to chill. 523 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,520 Speaker 1: You got to hit the reset button, open up a 524 00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,920 Speaker 1: course light, and boom, it's mountain cold refreshment. I need 525 00:33:20,960 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: a little bit of mountain cold refreshment right now. Summer 526 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,640 Speaker 1: is around the corner and it's a Corse Light summer. 527 00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,680 Speaker 1: We go to Colorado during the summer and we stay 528 00:33:29,720 --> 00:33:31,680 Speaker 1: there for the for the for three four months at 529 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:35,960 Speaker 1: least I do. And if there is not cors Light 530 00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: that is constantly chilling in my cool er, something is wrong. 531 00:33:40,240 --> 00:33:43,520 Speaker 1: I'm dreaming of a Corps light on a mountain right now. 532 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:46,000 Speaker 1: Cors Light is the one that we choose when we 533 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: need to unwind. So when you want to hit reset, 534 00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:51,760 Speaker 1: reach for the beer that is made to chill. Get 535 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,560 Speaker 1: course Light in the New Look, delivered straight to your 536 00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: door with Drizzly or Instacart Celebrate Responsibly Cors Brewing Company, 537 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:07,160 Speaker 1: Golden Colorado. You know, I made a whole thing out 538 00:34:07,200 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 1: of the fact that the Buddha had no relationship with 539 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: his mother because his mother died when he was a 540 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 1: week old. And I and I was like, you know, 541 00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:22,279 Speaker 1: as a as a psycho, a psychotherapist, why why is 542 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:26,359 Speaker 1: that story in the Buddha in the you know, in 543 00:34:26,400 --> 00:34:28,839 Speaker 1: the myth if it's you know, of the Buddha, why 544 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:32,000 Speaker 1: does his mother die when he's a week old? And 545 00:34:32,080 --> 00:34:34,279 Speaker 1: I was determined to make something out of that, Like 546 00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:37,760 Speaker 1: I was going to like Eric Erickson with Luther or Gandhi, 547 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: you know, I wanted to do like a psycho biography. 548 00:34:42,400 --> 00:34:45,440 Speaker 1: And I'll try not to talk too long about this, 549 00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:49,319 Speaker 1: but I went on one of these retreats. Uh. They 550 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: have a little library at these retreat centers that are 551 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,000 Speaker 1: filled with just Buddhist books and you're not supposed to 552 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: read or write or anything. But I always sneak into 553 00:34:57,120 --> 00:35:00,320 Speaker 1: the library for half an hour, uh, and pull a 554 00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 1: book off the shelf at random to see what, you know, 555 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,879 Speaker 1: maybe the universe will give me a teaching. So right 556 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 1: when I was thinking about this, I went into the 557 00:35:09,520 --> 00:35:14,840 Speaker 1: library five days into my retreat. And the Buddhist Sutras 558 00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:18,360 Speaker 1: are like the Encyclopedia Britannica. They take up a whole shelf, 559 00:35:18,560 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 1: you know. So I picked one volume out at random 560 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:24,000 Speaker 1: and opened it up at random, and I opened to 561 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,440 Speaker 1: the only place in the whole Encyclopedia Britannica where they 562 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:31,880 Speaker 1: talk about the death of the buddhast mother and and 563 00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 1: it says, oh, she knew that when he was twenty 564 00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: nine he was going to abandon the family and it 565 00:35:41,080 --> 00:35:43,080 Speaker 1: was going to cause her so much pain. So to 566 00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:48,200 Speaker 1: save her that pain, she decided to die when he 567 00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,759 Speaker 1: was a week old. And so I thought, well, that's 568 00:35:51,800 --> 00:35:58,719 Speaker 1: kind of a rationalization. But my theory was that the 569 00:35:59,160 --> 00:36:02,239 Speaker 1: that sense that a lot of us have developmentally of 570 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 1: not being loved enough by our one parent or both parents, 571 00:36:06,560 --> 00:36:09,480 Speaker 1: or if if one of them dies or leaves or 572 00:36:09,560 --> 00:36:16,080 Speaker 1: is alcoholic or depressed or whatever, many people are left 573 00:36:16,160 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 1: with some kind of residual sense of what, you know, 574 00:36:21,080 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 1: what was wrong with me, that I wasn't seen or 575 00:36:25,280 --> 00:36:29,280 Speaker 1: heard or loved or held or felt, you know enough. 576 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:32,800 Speaker 1: So that a kind of developmental trauma that the Buddha 577 00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:37,680 Speaker 1: must have also been feeling. And so I think the 578 00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:43,359 Speaker 1: buddhas whole enlightenment thing like that, he's searching for that, 579 00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:48,799 Speaker 1: in his case, maternal love, you know that he was 580 00:36:50,000 --> 00:36:53,000 Speaker 1: wanting from the outside, but he had to find eventually 581 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:56,240 Speaker 1: that it was in him already, you know, maybe from 582 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 1: that first week of life, or just because we all 583 00:36:58,880 --> 00:37:03,480 Speaker 1: are inherently ball of that kind of love. But anyway, 584 00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 1: that's helped me a lot clinically with my patients and 585 00:37:05,920 --> 00:37:09,960 Speaker 1: so on. What about ego? Ego? Yeah, yeah, just give 586 00:37:10,040 --> 00:37:15,160 Speaker 1: us the just a brief on that crazy word, because 587 00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:18,839 Speaker 1: it's good, it's bad, it's negative. I mean, what what 588 00:37:18,840 --> 00:37:20,480 Speaker 1: what are we talking about? And I to say that 589 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:22,960 Speaker 1: your book it's advice, not given a guide to getting 590 00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:26,320 Speaker 1: over yourself? Right, yes, And that's a lot about focus 591 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 1: on the ego, isn't it that that became focused on 592 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:31,800 Speaker 1: the ego once I got the subtitle of a guide 593 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:35,160 Speaker 1: to getting over yourself to try to explain what I 594 00:37:35,200 --> 00:37:37,200 Speaker 1: was talking about, well, I mean sorry, And then I'll 595 00:37:37,239 --> 00:37:38,560 Speaker 1: let you go, but I suck. What I feel like 596 00:37:38,560 --> 00:37:40,960 Speaker 1: I have to fucking do personally bringing you back to 597 00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:43,200 Speaker 1: me and everything else is just get over your good 598 00:37:43,320 --> 00:37:46,400 Speaker 1: over your fucking self. It's You're not that important, I 599 00:37:46,440 --> 00:37:48,480 Speaker 1: mean in that sense of the word. You know what 600 00:37:48,480 --> 00:37:51,680 Speaker 1: I mean. It's like, do something so delicate thing because 601 00:37:51,719 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 1: you are that important, right you know, you individual you 602 00:37:55,840 --> 00:38:02,920 Speaker 1: specifically Oliver, are that important? In fact, start crying. I 603 00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,880 Speaker 1: got hold of da You're not just your ego though, 604 00:38:07,480 --> 00:38:11,280 Speaker 1: So so where how does the ego fit in? We 605 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,680 Speaker 1: all need our egos. The ego is a necessary adjustment 606 00:38:16,040 --> 00:38:19,560 Speaker 1: in order to cope with being a person in the world. 607 00:38:20,040 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 1: It starts to emerge around the age of three or 608 00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:28,520 Speaker 1: four or five, when the mind realizes that, oh, I'm 609 00:38:28,560 --> 00:38:32,040 Speaker 1: a separate person, you know, and I have to cope 610 00:38:32,080 --> 00:38:36,719 Speaker 1: with going to sleep at night and being hungry and 611 00:38:36,800 --> 00:38:40,840 Speaker 1: being alone, and my parents are expecting all this stuff 612 00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,560 Speaker 1: from me, and I have to like toilet training, like 613 00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 1: really I have to do this, and eating the food 614 00:38:49,680 --> 00:38:53,279 Speaker 1: you know that doesn't smell good, and then going to 615 00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:58,279 Speaker 1: school and dealing with other kids and making fun of me, 616 00:38:59,080 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 1: you know. So the ego is like a defensive organization 617 00:39:02,320 --> 00:39:05,040 Speaker 1: that comes into being to help us. It's there to 618 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,359 Speaker 1: help us, and we all need it. If you try 619 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:09,360 Speaker 1: to get rid of your ego too quickly, like with 620 00:39:09,440 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: psychedelic drugs or too many retreats or whatever, you just 621 00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:18,680 Speaker 1: get psychotic. And the definition of psychotic is not enough ego, 622 00:39:19,200 --> 00:39:22,759 Speaker 1: you know. Or people with add they talk about a 623 00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:26,160 Speaker 1: lack of executive function, you know, the ability to organize 624 00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:28,960 Speaker 1: yourself to like do your homework or take out the 625 00:39:29,000 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: garbage or pay the bills. That's all ego. So we 626 00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:36,319 Speaker 1: all need the ego, but too much ego, you know. 627 00:39:36,760 --> 00:39:42,640 Speaker 1: The ego is about controlling the environment, ourselves and as 628 00:39:42,680 --> 00:39:45,840 Speaker 1: much as possible the outside world so that we can survive. 629 00:39:47,280 --> 00:39:49,440 Speaker 1: But the ego kind of gets a hold of us 630 00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:52,719 Speaker 1: and we think that's all there is to life, and 631 00:39:52,760 --> 00:39:55,280 Speaker 1: we think that we should be able to control everything, 632 00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:59,239 Speaker 1: even that which can't be controlled, you know. So the 633 00:39:59,440 --> 00:40:03,960 Speaker 1: ego has to learn, once it's established enough, it has 634 00:40:04,040 --> 00:40:08,680 Speaker 1: to learn also how to let go, you know. It 635 00:40:08,719 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: has to learn when to be helpful, you know, but 636 00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:18,399 Speaker 1: also when to let go. So but it's really we 637 00:40:18,520 --> 00:40:22,400 Speaker 1: have to learn when to deploy the ego, you know, 638 00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:27,319 Speaker 1: and when to allow other qualities that are inherent to 639 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: our being to take priority. That's such an interesting thing 640 00:40:31,719 --> 00:40:36,440 Speaker 1: because you would think, like, you know, I sometimes struggle 641 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:39,960 Speaker 1: with that meaning that you have, like especially I think 642 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:45,640 Speaker 1: being female, when things feel out of control, I have 643 00:40:45,680 --> 00:40:50,399 Speaker 1: an instinct to take control right and then be seen 644 00:40:50,440 --> 00:40:54,439 Speaker 1: as controlling, you know, so like when do you let 645 00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: something go? When do you actually sit back and go, 646 00:40:57,640 --> 00:40:59,600 Speaker 1: this isn't going to serve me or them? What is 647 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:03,879 Speaker 1: the balance? Find that balance? That's that's where your own 648 00:41:03,880 --> 00:41:08,880 Speaker 1: intelligence is really necessary. And that's why the eightfold path, 649 00:41:09,360 --> 00:41:13,200 Speaker 1: you know, try in a Buddhist way, tries to spell out, oh, yeah, 650 00:41:13,239 --> 00:41:16,320 Speaker 1: we need all of these qualities in order to walk 651 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:20,440 Speaker 1: this balance. So absolutely, in that role you have to 652 00:41:20,440 --> 00:41:23,719 Speaker 1: be able to step in, Yeah, step in with too 653 00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:28,080 Speaker 1: much ego or too much attachment to being right or 654 00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:32,239 Speaker 1: getting everything under control, then you'll be experienced as too 655 00:41:32,360 --> 00:41:35,680 Speaker 1: rigid or too controlling or too you know, like too 656 00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:44,120 Speaker 1: much like Scott rudin throwing things. But if you if 657 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,880 Speaker 1: you come in you know, just doing what needs to 658 00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:51,160 Speaker 1: be done, like in Zen it's all about you know, 659 00:41:51,360 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 1: washing the bulls and weeding the weeds and soon, So 660 00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:57,920 Speaker 1: if you come in, and in psychotherapy it's very similar 661 00:41:57,920 --> 00:41:59,920 Speaker 1: when do you do when do you say something, and 662 00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:02,279 Speaker 1: when do you not? So if you if you come in, 663 00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:09,000 Speaker 1: you know, with the right kind of balance, with the 664 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:14,400 Speaker 1: right touch, then you can get a lot done and 665 00:42:14,440 --> 00:42:17,640 Speaker 1: people will still respect you, you know, and then you 666 00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,560 Speaker 1: and you can sense when when to when to let go. 667 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:26,839 Speaker 1: So it's that balance between applying your will, applying your 668 00:42:26,880 --> 00:42:31,839 Speaker 1: agency and then stepping back, and even in meditation that 669 00:42:31,880 --> 00:42:34,720 Speaker 1: we have to do that, like you have to deploy 670 00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: your ego in order to meditate, you know, otherwise you 671 00:42:37,800 --> 00:42:41,960 Speaker 1: just be sitting there, you know. But at a certain point, 672 00:42:42,000 --> 00:42:46,520 Speaker 1: once it's once you're established in your meditation, then it's 673 00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:50,920 Speaker 1: all about sitting back and just allowing the movie to unfold. 674 00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,600 Speaker 1: I know what, it's so crazy, like who the hell 675 00:42:53,640 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 1: are we? You know, like we don't have to know 676 00:42:56,920 --> 00:42:59,759 Speaker 1: are we are conscious? What is our consciousness? Like? Am 677 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:03,840 Speaker 1: I myself right now? Or am I the voice that 678 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:09,040 Speaker 1: is constantly talking to me, you know and explaining things 679 00:43:09,200 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 1: or you know who? Who? Who the fuck are we really? 680 00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,840 Speaker 1: I mean it's I know, I always say, but before 681 00:43:17,560 --> 00:43:20,120 Speaker 1: before my therapy and before meditation, I didn't know who 682 00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:21,960 Speaker 1: I was and it was and I was a mess 683 00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:24,319 Speaker 1: and after it all, I still don't know who I am. 684 00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:29,120 Speaker 1: But it's okay. Well you wrote it. You wrote about 685 00:43:29,160 --> 00:43:31,680 Speaker 1: like not how to not be a prisoner of your ego? 686 00:43:32,160 --> 00:43:34,240 Speaker 1: Like what does that mean for you as a doctor? 687 00:43:34,280 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 1: Like how how can someone out there not be a 688 00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,160 Speaker 1: prisoner to their ego? Well? I think Oliver was getting 689 00:43:40,200 --> 00:43:42,360 Speaker 1: at it a minute ago when you were saying, who 690 00:43:42,480 --> 00:43:45,560 Speaker 1: am I? You know? Am I these? Uh? Am I 691 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,600 Speaker 1: the voice in my head that's saying all of this stuff? 692 00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:51,960 Speaker 1: Or am I the awareness of that voice in my 693 00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,080 Speaker 1: head that's saying all of that stuff? Or am I 694 00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:56,440 Speaker 1: in you know, am I somewhere else in my body? 695 00:43:56,480 --> 00:44:01,000 Speaker 1: While this is going on, Most people I think are 696 00:44:01,040 --> 00:44:06,319 Speaker 1: really identified with that voice in their head, which is 697 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:09,240 Speaker 1: them to some degree. It's the them that they probably 698 00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:12,239 Speaker 1: know the best and might also be quite ashamed of, 699 00:44:13,440 --> 00:44:16,480 Speaker 1: but it's not the totality of who they are. So 700 00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:21,279 Speaker 1: the the big revelation coming out of meditation, and I 701 00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:24,680 Speaker 1: think it can come from psychotherapy also, is that the 702 00:44:25,840 --> 00:44:32,920 Speaker 1: witnessing element, you know, the awareness of like you're thinking 703 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,200 Speaker 1: all those thoughts, but you're also aware that you're thinking 704 00:44:35,200 --> 00:44:37,919 Speaker 1: all those thoughts and the awareness can't be the same 705 00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:40,799 Speaker 1: as the thinker, you know. Like that was my first 706 00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:43,719 Speaker 1: book was Thoughts without a Thinker, you know. So the 707 00:44:43,760 --> 00:44:47,520 Speaker 1: thoughts are going on, they happen by themselves in some way. 708 00:44:47,640 --> 00:44:51,279 Speaker 1: That's really us, you know, neurotic mess that we are. 709 00:44:52,400 --> 00:44:55,120 Speaker 1: And yet at the same time we can cultivate this 710 00:44:55,200 --> 00:45:01,759 Speaker 1: other thing, which is the witness consciousness, you know. Or 711 00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,120 Speaker 1: so you can think about as coming from your head 712 00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:07,360 Speaker 1: as like you're watching or listening or seeing, but you 713 00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,800 Speaker 1: could think of it also as coming from your heart 714 00:45:10,239 --> 00:45:14,359 Speaker 1: as the way a mother holds a baby, you know, 715 00:45:14,600 --> 00:45:19,400 Speaker 1: like you're creating a holding environment for your mind or 716 00:45:19,400 --> 00:45:23,040 Speaker 1: for your feelings when they're difficult, for your feelings, so 717 00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:28,360 Speaker 1: that you're you're holding with that kind of loving awareness. 718 00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:32,319 Speaker 1: And I think the Buddhist things helped a lot by 719 00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,400 Speaker 1: bringing in a bit of that loving awareness aspect to it, 720 00:45:35,440 --> 00:45:39,080 Speaker 1: because otherwise it can get a little bit dissociative, if 721 00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:43,560 Speaker 1: it can get a little bit dry, yeah, because to 722 00:45:43,600 --> 00:45:47,200 Speaker 1: simplify it too is difficult because it can get overwhelming, 723 00:45:47,400 --> 00:45:50,320 Speaker 1: you know, just this idea of these sort of different 724 00:45:50,400 --> 00:45:54,480 Speaker 1: personalities that you that you're fighting every day. How do 725 00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,359 Speaker 1: we quiet that down. What do we need to do 726 00:45:57,480 --> 00:45:59,920 Speaker 1: to sort of at least let go or get over 727 00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:03,920 Speaker 1: or get over exactly, you know, But it's it's it's simple, 728 00:46:03,960 --> 00:46:09,640 Speaker 1: but not simplistic. I used to go the therapist that 729 00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:12,320 Speaker 1: I used to go to, I would I would often 730 00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 1: start with what, you know, like, part of me is upset, 731 00:46:16,160 --> 00:46:18,759 Speaker 1: part of me feels this, but part of me feels that, 732 00:46:19,400 --> 00:46:21,319 Speaker 1: which goes to your point of all that who are 733 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,880 Speaker 1: we and where all these different? And he would always 734 00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:27,640 Speaker 1: say to me, he would say, you don't have parts mark, 735 00:46:28,520 --> 00:46:31,680 Speaker 1: you know, which always like sort of shook me and 736 00:46:31,719 --> 00:46:33,920 Speaker 1: I and I do that now to my patients. Whenever 737 00:46:33,960 --> 00:46:36,959 Speaker 1: I noticed the language that we used to talk about 738 00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:40,719 Speaker 1: our experience is very important. But the dividing yourself up 739 00:46:40,719 --> 00:46:45,040 Speaker 1: into parts, that's a dissociative thing, like you know, so 740 00:46:45,320 --> 00:46:47,160 Speaker 1: when he would say to me, you know, there's only 741 00:46:47,200 --> 00:46:51,200 Speaker 1: one of you that you know, Oh, I'm all of this, 742 00:46:52,080 --> 00:46:55,080 Speaker 1: you know, you know, it's I'm the thoughts and I'm 743 00:46:55,120 --> 00:46:58,399 Speaker 1: the awareness and I'm you know, it's weird too, I've 744 00:46:58,400 --> 00:47:02,440 Speaker 1: got so many people do that. You want to disassociate 745 00:47:03,320 --> 00:47:07,640 Speaker 1: from negative or positive, you know, you want to compartmentalize 746 00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:12,319 Speaker 1: certain things well, it's also frustrating because it's like I 747 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:16,040 Speaker 1: feel like I know my essence, but it's impossible to 748 00:47:16,120 --> 00:47:24,120 Speaker 1: get to it. That's that's you know, that's a profound 749 00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:28,560 Speaker 1: Buddhist teaching, Okay that they talk about it. It's like 750 00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:37,280 Speaker 1: a dog chasing its own tail. And you go thermonu. 751 00:47:37,719 --> 00:47:40,239 Speaker 1: So you go in a circle. You know, I know 752 00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,640 Speaker 1: my essence, but I can't find it. But I can 753 00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,360 Speaker 1: feel it, but I can almost and you create like 754 00:47:45,400 --> 00:47:49,719 Speaker 1: a whirlpool in your mind, you know, uh that ultimately 755 00:47:50,239 --> 00:47:55,960 Speaker 1: creates enough agitation and confusion that it burst. Well yeah 756 00:47:56,040 --> 00:48:03,759 Speaker 1: you birth. Yeah. I was like, oh yeah, yeah, that's 757 00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:07,040 Speaker 1: so interesting. You know, I had this thing, you know, recently. 758 00:48:07,120 --> 00:48:10,640 Speaker 1: Like for me, it's also kind of when life becomes 759 00:48:11,000 --> 00:48:13,720 Speaker 1: a lot of the same thing, and it's the same 760 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:17,400 Speaker 1: kind of concept of chasing, you know, but for me, 761 00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,480 Speaker 1: it's like not my own tail. It's like all these tales, 762 00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,200 Speaker 1: you know. It's like I'm you know, it's like this 763 00:48:23,239 --> 00:48:25,040 Speaker 1: one over here, and then there's this one there's and 764 00:48:25,120 --> 00:48:28,000 Speaker 1: I'm finally like I want to quit. I want to 765 00:48:28,600 --> 00:48:31,600 Speaker 1: sell my house, I want to move. I want to 766 00:48:31,680 --> 00:48:37,400 Speaker 1: just break out of this whatever this cycle is. I 767 00:48:37,440 --> 00:48:40,760 Speaker 1: do I get what that feeling is, and I sometimes 768 00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,920 Speaker 1: want I think it's a very very common thing, especially 769 00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:46,720 Speaker 1: at our age. But like I I would I would 770 00:48:46,800 --> 00:48:50,920 Speaker 1: also think that like we're responsible for our own trappings, right, 771 00:48:51,080 --> 00:48:57,400 Speaker 1: Like we've created this experience, and do you just listen 772 00:48:57,440 --> 00:49:01,239 Speaker 1: to those things like should I should we like? Should 773 00:49:01,280 --> 00:49:04,440 Speaker 1: we act on this and actually just bail? You know? 774 00:49:04,560 --> 00:49:09,120 Speaker 1: Sometimes you need an awakening, you know. Oh, and this 775 00:49:09,200 --> 00:49:10,920 Speaker 1: is this is where I was going with that. You know, 776 00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:13,759 Speaker 1: some people, and I wonder if you I think about 777 00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:15,960 Speaker 1: it sometimes with the tara, like the white Tara, the 778 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:20,319 Speaker 1: red Tara, you know. And I'm very I'm fire right, 779 00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:24,400 Speaker 1: and I know that sometimes I have to balance whatever 780 00:49:24,440 --> 00:49:27,320 Speaker 1: that is, but like everybody comes at these things in 781 00:49:27,640 --> 00:49:32,160 Speaker 1: different ways. I'm like an explosion of fire, you know. 782 00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:35,240 Speaker 1: And and when you're working with patients, do you ever 783 00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:41,640 Speaker 1: kind of see them energetically as you know, an element 784 00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:46,000 Speaker 1: or oh, I see them energetically as pure expressions of 785 00:49:46,080 --> 00:49:50,840 Speaker 1: themselves absolutely, which which I think that's what those tara, 786 00:49:51,320 --> 00:49:53,920 Speaker 1: that's what all those things are, you know, white Tara 787 00:49:54,000 --> 00:49:56,480 Speaker 1: read they're pure expressions of energy, and we're all we 788 00:49:56,600 --> 00:50:00,200 Speaker 1: all are pure expressions of something. So then what do 789 00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:04,680 Speaker 1: you do when you're feeling like so much heat? Is 790 00:50:04,719 --> 00:50:08,440 Speaker 1: that your is that my ego? That's probably not your ego, 791 00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:15,319 Speaker 1: that's probably your essence. But but how you're relating, how 792 00:50:15,360 --> 00:50:20,920 Speaker 1: you're relating to your to your heat, is really important, 793 00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,759 Speaker 1: you know, because that the only thing we really have 794 00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:29,280 Speaker 1: any ultimate control over is how we relate to whatever 795 00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,399 Speaker 1: is happening to us, you know, either in us or 796 00:50:32,400 --> 00:50:37,160 Speaker 1: to us. So you could relate, you could relate to 797 00:50:37,200 --> 00:50:40,040 Speaker 1: it of like this is too scary, I have all 798 00:50:40,080 --> 00:50:43,399 Speaker 1: of this heat or or or I'm going to burn 799 00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:51,640 Speaker 1: everything down, you know. Uh. But so finding that uh 800 00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:56,279 Speaker 1: where you know, where you're that balance between giving it 801 00:50:56,360 --> 00:51:00,960 Speaker 1: full rain and holding it compassion and that lay you know, 802 00:51:01,200 --> 00:51:03,640 Speaker 1: like that that sort of becomes the work. I think. 803 00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:06,400 Speaker 1: I think we're in a really interesting time and I 804 00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,480 Speaker 1: don't want to forget this because there's so much there's 805 00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:13,200 Speaker 1: so much happening in the world. People are so connected 806 00:51:13,360 --> 00:51:17,120 Speaker 1: to negative stories and you know, terrible things that have 807 00:51:17,280 --> 00:51:19,760 Speaker 1: not only happening now but have been happening for forever. 808 00:51:20,520 --> 00:51:24,520 Speaker 1: But what I'm finding is this sort of it's like 809 00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,120 Speaker 1: it's like I want to shut it all off, and 810 00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:28,719 Speaker 1: I think they might be Maybe there's a lot of 811 00:51:28,719 --> 00:51:30,680 Speaker 1: people who feel the same way. It's like, you feel 812 00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:32,880 Speaker 1: like we need to be involved. It's important to be 813 00:51:32,960 --> 00:51:34,880 Speaker 1: involved in all of the issues that are going on 814 00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:36,839 Speaker 1: in the world. And at the same time, it's so 815 00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:41,040 Speaker 1: overwhelming that you just want to turn it off and 816 00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,799 Speaker 1: not listen to it. And then and then you you 817 00:51:44,960 --> 00:51:48,560 Speaker 1: want to speak out about your feelings about things or life, 818 00:51:48,680 --> 00:51:53,239 Speaker 1: or your how you feel about one particular situation or thing. 819 00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,080 Speaker 1: I think people are finding it hard to know where 820 00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:59,880 Speaker 1: they belong and how to actually use their voice, and 821 00:52:00,120 --> 00:52:02,399 Speaker 1: are feeling a little bit stifled if they're not these 822 00:52:02,440 --> 00:52:07,960 Speaker 1: like super loud people, you know. And I wonder like 823 00:52:08,200 --> 00:52:10,480 Speaker 1: if you were talking to someone like I was feeling 824 00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:12,239 Speaker 1: that way the other day. I was thinking, you know, 825 00:52:12,360 --> 00:52:14,080 Speaker 1: I have so many things I want to say, and 826 00:52:14,120 --> 00:52:17,080 Speaker 1: I don't say. I have so much anxiety speaking up 827 00:52:17,400 --> 00:52:20,600 Speaker 1: about anything that I feel strongly about. Are we living 828 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:22,839 Speaker 1: in a time where it's like, good feel anxiety and 829 00:52:22,920 --> 00:52:27,160 Speaker 1: don't talk or do you think there's a way to 830 00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,200 Speaker 1: be able to kind of just balance that out, you know? 831 00:52:30,360 --> 00:52:33,040 Speaker 1: Like for me, like I can't quite I feel like 832 00:52:33,080 --> 00:52:37,320 Speaker 1: something's missing because I don't feel comfortable speaking outwardly about 833 00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:41,440 Speaker 1: certain things, you know, I think I think it is 834 00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:48,319 Speaker 1: a time where speaking out is so fraud that everyone 835 00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:53,279 Speaker 1: has to be very self conscious, you know, because of 836 00:52:53,480 --> 00:53:00,239 Speaker 1: the social media thing that immediately whatever you say say 837 00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:03,200 Speaker 1: is refracted and refracted and refracted in this way that 838 00:53:03,239 --> 00:53:06,279 Speaker 1: shows how we're all connected, but maybe also how we're 839 00:53:06,280 --> 00:53:11,000 Speaker 1: all entangling ourselves with each other, you know. So I 840 00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,280 Speaker 1: think the way that all of the world's problems are 841 00:53:14,320 --> 00:53:20,279 Speaker 1: at our immediate on our screens, at our feet, immediately available, 842 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:24,279 Speaker 1: like we're feeling everything and feeling like we have to 843 00:53:24,360 --> 00:53:28,759 Speaker 1: respond to everything. So that's too much for anybody. Well 844 00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:31,839 Speaker 1: in your practice, I mean, have you noticed just over 845 00:53:31,880 --> 00:53:34,640 Speaker 1: the years they have more of a heightened anxiety overall, 846 00:53:34,880 --> 00:53:38,600 Speaker 1: just generally speaking, you know, with your not really no, 847 00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:42,640 Speaker 1: you haven't. There's been an anxiety. There's there's always anxiety. 848 00:53:42,680 --> 00:53:44,640 Speaker 1: I think it's just like how does the anxiety get 849 00:53:44,680 --> 00:53:50,560 Speaker 1: expressed and what is it expressed around? So I think this, 850 00:53:50,760 --> 00:53:55,040 Speaker 1: you know, this whole pandemic time, coupled with the social 851 00:53:55,080 --> 00:53:59,319 Speaker 1: awareness that's been going on, has really thrust people that 852 00:53:59,520 --> 00:54:03,640 Speaker 1: you know into themselves, like we're a lot of self examination. 853 00:54:03,760 --> 00:54:07,520 Speaker 1: It's a really internal time at the same time that 854 00:54:07,600 --> 00:54:09,880 Speaker 1: time is kind of going in circles instead of in 855 00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:14,960 Speaker 1: a straight line because we're you know, so so I 856 00:54:14,960 --> 00:54:18,600 Speaker 1: think there's a lot of confusion about where where speech, 857 00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:23,680 Speaker 1: you know, what is right speech. You also said that 858 00:54:23,800 --> 00:54:25,960 Speaker 1: people have a hard time in one of your books 859 00:54:27,120 --> 00:54:32,160 Speaker 1: actually being with themselves, So you know, then we're you know, 860 00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:35,560 Speaker 1: it's like coupled with everything that's going on the world 861 00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:40,120 Speaker 1: social media, but then actually being forced to be with themselves, Like, yeah, 862 00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:42,640 Speaker 1: I guess it would turn into a very reflective or 863 00:54:42,719 --> 00:54:46,319 Speaker 1: destructive time for people to be destructive. That's one of 864 00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:48,920 Speaker 1: the nice things about therapy, I think is that it's 865 00:54:48,960 --> 00:54:53,839 Speaker 1: a you know, an intimate conversation that is protected, you know, 866 00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:57,839 Speaker 1: so people can work out, they can work out their 867 00:54:57,880 --> 00:55:01,000 Speaker 1: thoughts in a safe way instead of instead of working 868 00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:05,200 Speaker 1: their thoughts out and you know, on on Instagram, where 869 00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:11,280 Speaker 1: they're going to be called out, you know, for those attempts. So, yeah, 870 00:55:11,360 --> 00:55:14,319 Speaker 1: you said, I was just looking at this quote. In 871 00:55:14,360 --> 00:55:18,480 Speaker 1: resisting trauma and in defending ourselves from feeling its full impact, 872 00:55:18,520 --> 00:55:24,279 Speaker 1: we deprive ourselves of its truth. I love that, but 873 00:55:24,400 --> 00:55:26,279 Speaker 1: I'd love for you to expand on it a little 874 00:55:26,280 --> 00:55:30,520 Speaker 1: bit because I think there's so many people. Everyone experiences 875 00:55:30,560 --> 00:55:33,239 Speaker 1: trauma in some way. Yeah, well, I've been I've been 876 00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:36,040 Speaker 1: saying if we're if you don't suffer from post traumatic 877 00:55:36,080 --> 00:55:40,600 Speaker 1: stress syndrome, that you suffer from pre traumatic stress. Because 878 00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:48,000 Speaker 1: the underlying potential for trauma, you know, old age, illness, death, 879 00:55:48,200 --> 00:55:53,040 Speaker 1: separation from those we care about, loss, that that potential 880 00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:56,719 Speaker 1: is inherent in life. So and we all know it, 881 00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,839 Speaker 1: even though where the ego defends against it by trying 882 00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:03,000 Speaker 1: to control, like we were talking about, but underneath that, 883 00:56:03,440 --> 00:56:06,000 Speaker 1: we all know it and we're sort of scared. And 884 00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,879 Speaker 1: the pandemic has brought that on. So you know that 885 00:56:09,320 --> 00:56:11,960 Speaker 1: what you were quoting, Kate came from you know, seven 886 00:56:12,080 --> 00:56:14,160 Speaker 1: or eight years ago when I was trying to figure 887 00:56:14,200 --> 00:56:18,520 Speaker 1: out what is trauma. Now we're all living it, really, 888 00:56:19,000 --> 00:56:24,480 Speaker 1: you know. So the idea that it's over over there, 889 00:56:24,600 --> 00:56:27,160 Speaker 1: happening to other people, or it might happen to us sometimes, 890 00:56:27,239 --> 00:56:30,799 Speaker 1: actually it's happening right now. Everyone can feel it, but 891 00:56:31,080 --> 00:56:34,680 Speaker 1: we don't want to feel it because it's scary, and 892 00:56:34,760 --> 00:56:39,040 Speaker 1: we would rather that the trauma was happening somewhere else 893 00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:41,640 Speaker 1: and then we could feel sorry for the people who 894 00:56:41,640 --> 00:56:44,000 Speaker 1: were victims. Of it for a little bit and maybe 895 00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:47,440 Speaker 1: send some money or some compassion or some love. But 896 00:56:47,680 --> 00:56:51,080 Speaker 1: then there's a sort of rush to normal where we 897 00:56:51,200 --> 00:56:54,279 Speaker 1: think we should be able to live without trauma. You know. 898 00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:59,760 Speaker 1: So that thing that you read where that was coming 899 00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:04,840 Speaker 1: from my experience as the therapist, you know, helping trying 900 00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:09,520 Speaker 1: to help people who have had terrible losses, the you know, 901 00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:13,080 Speaker 1: where a child has been killed or parents die early 902 00:57:13,200 --> 00:57:17,880 Speaker 1: or whatever. The you know, the social pressure is really 903 00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:21,200 Speaker 1: like aren't you over it yet? You know, like go 904 00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:29,640 Speaker 1: through the five stages of Elizabeth Kobler Ross grief, you know, denial, anger, acceptance, bargaining, whatever, 905 00:57:29,920 --> 00:57:32,000 Speaker 1: and then be done with it and get back to yourself. 906 00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:37,720 Speaker 1: And that never seemed fair to me. It seems more 907 00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:41,720 Speaker 1: like we have to come to terms with trauma as 908 00:57:42,720 --> 00:57:47,440 Speaker 1: an inevitable component of this life that we're all living, 909 00:57:48,240 --> 00:57:54,080 Speaker 1: and some kind of grief and love are connected. So 910 00:57:54,320 --> 00:57:58,920 Speaker 1: if we're if we're pushing the mourning or the grief 911 00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:02,200 Speaker 1: or the sadness away, we're also pushing the love away, 912 00:58:02,680 --> 00:58:08,600 Speaker 1: and then we're creating a much more constrained, claustrophobic way 913 00:58:08,640 --> 00:58:11,800 Speaker 1: of living. So I'm trying to say that it's safe 914 00:58:11,840 --> 00:58:14,600 Speaker 1: to feel the difficult stuff, and that in feeling the 915 00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:19,560 Speaker 1: difficult stuff, we also can feel the good stuff. Yeah, 916 00:58:20,240 --> 00:58:27,000 Speaker 1: if you were to give advice to people listening about 917 00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:30,520 Speaker 1: how to deal with whatever life is throwing at them, 918 00:58:30,600 --> 00:58:34,400 Speaker 1: if you had, like, you know, like, what would be 919 00:58:34,440 --> 00:58:36,520 Speaker 1: the first thing you would say to someone who's like, 920 00:58:36,640 --> 00:58:38,720 Speaker 1: I have all this Like I just have all this 921 00:58:38,840 --> 00:58:40,800 Speaker 1: trauma or I have all this stuff happening, Like what 922 00:58:40,800 --> 00:58:44,440 Speaker 1: would be the first tool you would give them? The 923 00:58:44,480 --> 00:58:46,720 Speaker 1: first thing I would do would just be to say, like, 924 00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:53,600 Speaker 1: tell me everything, you know, get it, put it into words, 925 00:58:54,000 --> 00:58:56,800 Speaker 1: you know, like I'm I'm thinking when we're now that 926 00:58:56,840 --> 00:59:00,080 Speaker 1: we're talking. One of the patients who taught me the 927 00:59:00,120 --> 00:59:03,120 Speaker 1: most about dealing with trauma came to me after the 928 00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:07,360 Speaker 1: tsunami in two thousand and four, whenever it was, and 929 00:59:07,440 --> 00:59:10,800 Speaker 1: she had lost her whole family, her parents and her 930 00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:13,600 Speaker 1: husband and her children. They were vacationing at an eco 931 00:59:13,680 --> 00:59:18,240 Speaker 1: resort and the tsunami, the wave came and swept them 932 00:59:18,280 --> 00:59:21,360 Speaker 1: all away, and she survived by clinging to a tree branch, 933 00:59:21,840 --> 00:59:27,360 Speaker 1: but everyone else died, and she ended up in my office, 934 00:59:27,640 --> 00:59:31,320 Speaker 1: and I really didn't know how I was going to 935 00:59:31,320 --> 00:59:34,800 Speaker 1: help her, but in the office. You know, I have 936 00:59:34,880 --> 00:59:37,880 Speaker 1: two children, and she had two children, and whether the 937 00:59:37,960 --> 00:59:41,120 Speaker 1: children were alive or dead, I know what it's like 938 00:59:41,160 --> 00:59:43,080 Speaker 1: to have children. And so I just made her tell 939 00:59:43,120 --> 00:59:46,600 Speaker 1: me about her children, you know, and she hadn't been 940 00:59:46,880 --> 00:59:49,880 Speaker 1: because they died and been so traumatic. You know, she'd 941 00:59:49,920 --> 00:59:54,000 Speaker 1: been like having to keep them away. You know. That's 942 00:59:54,040 --> 00:59:59,440 Speaker 1: the tendency, you know, the dissociative tendency. And so the 943 00:59:59,520 --> 01:00:01,720 Speaker 1: first thing I said, then, what you know, like tell 944 01:00:01,760 --> 01:00:06,040 Speaker 1: me about them, and and that you know, that was 945 01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:10,440 Speaker 1: so so beautiful because the love is all They were 946 01:00:10,480 --> 01:00:17,240 Speaker 1: still there, you know, so I couldn't. So again, you know, 947 01:00:17,280 --> 01:00:18,960 Speaker 1: how do you how do you go on from so? 948 01:00:19,080 --> 01:00:21,800 Speaker 1: I mean how the is that just the will to live? 949 01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:24,360 Speaker 1: Is that just primal something that takes over in your 950 01:00:24,440 --> 01:00:27,680 Speaker 1: body chemically where it's like, you know, I've got to 951 01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:30,800 Speaker 1: move forward because that's so devastating. I don't think the 952 01:00:30,840 --> 01:00:34,120 Speaker 1: moving forward isn't that. It wasn't about moving forward. It 953 01:00:34,200 --> 01:00:38,560 Speaker 1: was really about being being in the present. Uh So 954 01:00:38,920 --> 01:00:41,160 Speaker 1: the love was still there, that was the key thing. 955 01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:44,760 Speaker 1: The feelings were still there, they were still part of her, 956 01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:51,400 Speaker 1: you know, so in spiritual I mean, was not not 957 01:00:51,640 --> 01:00:55,640 Speaker 1: before all this happened. She wrote a book about it. 958 01:00:56,360 --> 01:00:59,320 Speaker 1: She wrote a beautiful book that's just called Wave if 959 01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,480 Speaker 1: anybody wants to Yeah, the Times picked it as the 960 01:01:02,520 --> 01:01:04,960 Speaker 1: best book a few years. And she found meditation, I mean, 961 01:01:04,960 --> 01:01:08,480 Speaker 1: did she find no meditation wasn't the biggest part of it. 962 01:01:08,520 --> 01:01:11,760 Speaker 1: I mean, if you expand your definition of meditation to 963 01:01:11,840 --> 01:01:15,400 Speaker 1: include the therapy and and then her own writing. I 964 01:01:15,720 --> 01:01:18,480 Speaker 1: got her to write stuff that she would bring to me, 965 01:01:18,520 --> 01:01:22,160 Speaker 1: and it turned into a beautiful book, you know, but 966 01:01:22,400 --> 01:01:25,680 Speaker 1: putting words on the feelings that the tender. I mean, 967 01:01:25,920 --> 01:01:28,960 Speaker 1: that's an extreme example of trauma. You know, like almost 968 01:01:29,040 --> 01:01:33,560 Speaker 1: no one could, you know. But the way that one 969 01:01:34,080 --> 01:01:38,720 Speaker 1: deals with any trauma, even COVID, you know, is to 970 01:01:39,600 --> 01:01:42,200 Speaker 1: do something of the same thing, to like try to 971 01:01:42,200 --> 01:01:45,680 Speaker 1: close yourself off from the pain of it in order 972 01:01:45,760 --> 01:01:49,120 Speaker 1: to keep going, so that the keeping going isn't really 973 01:01:49,160 --> 01:01:51,640 Speaker 1: the point. It's it's like you keep going with like 974 01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:56,160 Speaker 1: a you know, limping along. That's what I wanted her 975 01:01:56,240 --> 01:01:59,200 Speaker 1: to be able to keep going with her whole vitality, 976 01:01:59,440 --> 01:02:03,160 Speaker 1: you know, So that meant really look dealing with what happened. 977 01:02:03,440 --> 01:02:07,320 Speaker 1: Do you find that there are instances where people are 978 01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:12,440 Speaker 1: using psychotherapy or meditation, not in the best way, and 979 01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:17,400 Speaker 1: to sort of, you know, actually hide from themselves in 980 01:02:17,480 --> 01:02:20,600 Speaker 1: a way, you know, or they they crossed the line 981 01:02:20,680 --> 01:02:25,480 Speaker 1: of half the people you meet on yoga retreats. That's 982 01:02:25,480 --> 01:02:29,160 Speaker 1: what I'm saying, because I know some people were's like, Okay, 983 01:02:30,040 --> 01:02:32,320 Speaker 1: on paper, it looks like you're doing great, but you're 984 01:02:32,360 --> 01:02:40,600 Speaker 1: actually not really present. We'll use anything. Oh no, Oh god, 985 01:02:40,760 --> 01:02:43,000 Speaker 1: I don't know if this is a sign. Oh no, 986 01:02:45,280 --> 01:02:48,200 Speaker 1: the bird just flew into the glass window and that's 987 01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:53,520 Speaker 1: that's the end of it. Oh really wow, Okay, well, 988 01:02:53,800 --> 01:02:56,880 Speaker 1: I gotta we gotta psychoanalyze this. It's a sign. It's 989 01:02:56,880 --> 01:03:01,880 Speaker 1: a sign. Sometimes it's a sign. Well, okay, where were 990 01:03:01,880 --> 01:03:12,600 Speaker 1: we talking about trauma the window life? No, we were 991 01:03:12,600 --> 01:03:15,200 Speaker 1: also we were also just discussing whether or not you know, 992 01:03:15,960 --> 01:03:20,080 Speaker 1: people can use it as a crutch. Yeah, meditation, therapy, 993 01:03:20,520 --> 01:03:23,160 Speaker 1: that's where you were. Yes, people will use anything, that's 994 01:03:23,200 --> 01:03:25,560 Speaker 1: what That's what I was saying that you know, they 995 01:03:25,640 --> 01:03:29,440 Speaker 1: use alcohol, they use drugs, they'll use yoga, they'll use therapy. 996 01:03:29,800 --> 01:03:33,640 Speaker 1: The the the ego wants to protect itself and there's 997 01:03:33,640 --> 01:03:37,480 Speaker 1: a big effort to hide from what we're ashamed of 998 01:03:37,760 --> 01:03:41,880 Speaker 1: or what we're disturbed by or what's difficult to feel. So, 999 01:03:42,440 --> 01:03:46,040 Speaker 1: you know, it's very understandable. But the book that you're writing, 1000 01:03:46,200 --> 01:03:49,360 Speaker 1: your new book, are you talking about this at all yet? 1001 01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:51,120 Speaker 1: Can you share with us a little bit what you're 1002 01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:54,960 Speaker 1: working on now? My my new book I'm calling The 1003 01:03:55,400 --> 01:03:59,840 Speaker 1: Zen of Therapy, Uncovering a Hidden Kindness in Life. And 1004 01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:04,160 Speaker 1: for a year, without knowing what I was writing about 1005 01:04:04,320 --> 01:04:05,840 Speaker 1: or what the next book was going to be, I 1006 01:04:06,000 --> 01:04:11,360 Speaker 1: tried to record one therapy session a week, not tape record, 1007 01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:14,400 Speaker 1: but write down afterwards. One session where I thought the 1008 01:04:14,440 --> 01:04:18,840 Speaker 1: Buddhist influence was most obvious, because I was I'm still 1009 01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:20,920 Speaker 1: trying to tease that, like what am I really? Am 1010 01:04:20,960 --> 01:04:23,880 Speaker 1: I doing anything that's different from any other therapists? And 1011 01:04:24,360 --> 01:04:27,000 Speaker 1: what's the Buddhist element and so on? So I thought, okay, 1012 01:04:27,080 --> 01:04:31,040 Speaker 1: let's I'll just you know, show my hand, you know. 1013 01:04:32,000 --> 01:04:35,080 Speaker 1: So for a year I did this, but I couldn't. 1014 01:04:35,120 --> 01:04:36,760 Speaker 1: I had to force myself to do it. I don't 1015 01:04:36,840 --> 01:04:39,960 Speaker 1: usually take a lot of notes in my sessions, and 1016 01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:41,960 Speaker 1: then I didn't read it over for the whole year 1017 01:04:42,080 --> 01:04:44,120 Speaker 1: until it was done. And then I had this like 1018 01:04:44,800 --> 01:04:48,720 Speaker 1: pile of stuff different patients you know, and it was 1019 01:04:48,760 --> 01:04:51,520 Speaker 1: pretty interesting, and I showed it to my editor and 1020 01:04:51,560 --> 01:04:53,480 Speaker 1: she thought there might be something there, but that I 1021 01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:58,680 Speaker 1: should write like a reflection or a commentary after each 1022 01:04:58,720 --> 01:05:02,720 Speaker 1: session two highlight what it is I thought was happening. 1023 01:05:03,560 --> 01:05:06,200 Speaker 1: So I did all that during the past year, and 1024 01:05:06,280 --> 01:05:10,600 Speaker 1: I think it ended up showing that, yes, kind of 1025 01:05:10,640 --> 01:05:12,760 Speaker 1: what we were talking about at the beginning of the hour, 1026 01:05:13,400 --> 01:05:18,920 Speaker 1: that there's some way that the therapy moves towards giving 1027 01:05:18,960 --> 01:05:23,520 Speaker 1: people a sense of being rather than doing you know 1028 01:05:23,880 --> 01:05:27,880 Speaker 1: that that that that taps them into something deeper in themselves, 1029 01:05:27,920 --> 01:05:32,240 Speaker 1: hopefully if I'm if I'm doing anything to part the 1030 01:05:32,280 --> 01:05:35,960 Speaker 1: ways of the ego. So I was trying to demonstrate 1031 01:05:36,040 --> 01:05:40,320 Speaker 1: that that's so nice. Okay, Buddhist meditation. You've met some 1032 01:05:40,400 --> 01:05:44,720 Speaker 1: of the great philosophers, teachers, meditators. You're you're a Harvard 1033 01:05:44,800 --> 01:05:48,960 Speaker 1: medical graduate, right, so what what's your problem? You know 1034 01:05:48,960 --> 01:05:51,960 Speaker 1: what I mean? Like what happened? Well? Do you have 1035 01:05:52,320 --> 01:05:54,720 Speaker 1: do you have moments in your life where you're like, 1036 01:05:54,800 --> 01:05:57,760 Speaker 1: I can't get out of this fucking rut. I know 1037 01:05:57,920 --> 01:06:01,040 Speaker 1: all the tools, because I literally am the tools, but 1038 01:06:01,200 --> 01:06:03,800 Speaker 1: you want to come inside my mind? Yes, this is 1039 01:06:03,800 --> 01:06:06,480 Speaker 1: what I'm saying like, how like do you have the 1040 01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:08,600 Speaker 1: moments or where you're like a week and it's just 1041 01:06:08,680 --> 01:06:11,680 Speaker 1: like I just God, damn it, I don't know. I 1042 01:06:11,720 --> 01:06:14,600 Speaker 1: can't get out of my head. Oh what dorive? The 1043 01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:17,360 Speaker 1: moments I have. My life is about getting out of 1044 01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:22,360 Speaker 1: my head. What I like about being a therapist is that, 1045 01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:25,200 Speaker 1: and I do talk about this in the book. What 1046 01:06:25,480 --> 01:06:28,040 Speaker 1: I think what I like so much about being a 1047 01:06:28,040 --> 01:06:31,640 Speaker 1: therapist is that when I'm being a therapist, I'm really 1048 01:06:31,640 --> 01:06:35,280 Speaker 1: not thinking about myself and it's such a relief, you know. 1049 01:06:35,360 --> 01:06:37,360 Speaker 1: And I think the meditation has helped me with that. 1050 01:06:37,760 --> 01:06:41,120 Speaker 1: When I'm with somebody as their therapist. I mean I 1051 01:06:41,680 --> 01:06:44,600 Speaker 1: talk a lot as a therapist. I'm not like quiet 1052 01:06:44,680 --> 01:06:47,760 Speaker 1: and you know, just listening and stuff. But I'm really 1053 01:06:47,840 --> 01:06:52,240 Speaker 1: not self obsessed, you know. I'm really about like, oh, 1054 01:06:52,280 --> 01:06:55,720 Speaker 1: I want to I want to get to that essential 1055 01:06:55,840 --> 01:06:59,919 Speaker 1: you you know, and that's so fun. That's like drive 1056 01:07:00,240 --> 01:07:04,320 Speaker 1: down the highway and the sob you know. And I 1057 01:07:04,320 --> 01:07:07,640 Speaker 1: can do it for seven eight hours a day. So 1058 01:07:08,000 --> 01:07:10,040 Speaker 1: after that, I just want to watch TV or something 1059 01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:15,960 Speaker 1: you do you do, right? You watch a lot before 1060 01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:18,640 Speaker 1: we go, just just for those listening who maybe want 1061 01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:21,280 Speaker 1: to get into meditation. You know, do you have any 1062 01:07:22,080 --> 01:07:25,320 Speaker 1: do you have any sort of references of how to start, 1063 01:07:25,360 --> 01:07:27,960 Speaker 1: because there's so many different ways to do it. There's 1064 01:07:27,960 --> 01:07:32,160 Speaker 1: so many different kinds of meditation, you know, mindful meditation, T, 1065 01:07:32,440 --> 01:07:35,840 Speaker 1: you know TM, Like, what, how does one get started 1066 01:07:35,880 --> 01:07:41,040 Speaker 1: without feeling overwhelmed? Well? I can. I can tell people 1067 01:07:41,280 --> 01:07:44,520 Speaker 1: how to get started with the people that I got started, 1068 01:07:45,000 --> 01:07:48,560 Speaker 1: you know, which, which I'll be happy to do. But 1069 01:07:48,560 --> 01:07:53,040 Speaker 1: but I think it's important to know that one, meditation 1070 01:07:53,160 --> 01:07:56,560 Speaker 1: isn't for everybody. Uh, some people really need just to 1071 01:07:56,600 --> 01:07:59,320 Speaker 1: be moving around and in their bodies and working or 1072 01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:04,360 Speaker 1: working out or whatever. And two there's so many different 1073 01:08:04,440 --> 01:08:06,880 Speaker 1: kinds of meditation, so many ways in, and it really 1074 01:08:06,880 --> 01:08:10,000 Speaker 1: doesn't matter. It's whatever feels right to you. So I 1075 01:08:10,040 --> 01:08:12,400 Speaker 1: don't you know, there's a lot of Charlatan's out there, 1076 01:08:12,440 --> 01:08:14,160 Speaker 1: so you want to try to stay away from the 1077 01:08:14,200 --> 01:08:18,040 Speaker 1: ones who demand all your money. But there's there are 1078 01:08:18,080 --> 01:08:22,440 Speaker 1: many good ways in. But this friend of mine, newscaster 1079 01:08:22,680 --> 01:08:25,720 Speaker 1: named Dan Harris, you guys might know him a little bit. 1080 01:08:26,040 --> 01:08:30,600 Speaker 1: He was a newscaster on ABC until he had a 1081 01:08:30,640 --> 01:08:34,400 Speaker 1: panic attack when he came back from Iraq, and then 1082 01:08:34,720 --> 01:08:37,479 Speaker 1: his wife made him seek me out as a friend, 1083 01:08:37,520 --> 01:08:41,600 Speaker 1: not as a therapist, and I led him to my 1084 01:08:41,680 --> 01:08:44,479 Speaker 1: Buddhist teachers and he got really into it. And he 1085 01:08:44,880 --> 01:08:49,479 Speaker 1: has a podcast and an app called ten percent Happier, 1086 01:08:50,160 --> 01:08:55,480 Speaker 1: and he got my he got Joseph Goldstein and Sharon Salzburg, 1087 01:08:55,520 --> 01:08:57,519 Speaker 1: a lot of the teachers that I respect the most 1088 01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:01,920 Speaker 1: to come into the studio and record beginning meditation instruction. 1089 01:09:02,479 --> 01:09:07,559 Speaker 1: So I think that's that's an incredible way in because 1090 01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:13,439 Speaker 1: those instructions are very, very very very on point. But 1091 01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:21,439 Speaker 1: that's just one one approach. Excellent. Well, thank you, thank you, welcome, 1092 01:09:21,640 --> 01:09:24,840 Speaker 1: appreciate it. And I think now more than ever, I mean, 1093 01:09:24,880 --> 01:09:27,720 Speaker 1: people are going to really resonate with this episode. And 1094 01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:30,559 Speaker 1: I'm so grateful that you joined us, so thank you 1095 01:09:30,600 --> 01:09:32,519 Speaker 1: so much. I'm going to go tend to that good bird. 1096 01:09:32,760 --> 01:09:36,120 Speaker 1: I'm so sorry about the bird. I say, it's sometimes 1097 01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:38,080 Speaker 1: a sign from the other side, you know, when a 1098 01:09:38,200 --> 01:09:40,880 Speaker 1: when a bird flies into your house. Oh really, yeah, 1099 01:09:40,880 --> 01:09:45,000 Speaker 1: there you go. I believe it, Yeah, I believe it. 1100 01:09:45,080 --> 01:09:53,479 Speaker 1: What if it crashes into the window. Another sibling, Revelry 1101 01:09:53,560 --> 01:09:56,839 Speaker 1: is executive produced by Kate Hudson and Oliver Hudson. Producer 1102 01:09:56,920 --> 01:10:00,920 Speaker 1: is Alison President. Editor is Josh Wendish. Music by Mark 1103 01:10:01,000 --> 01:10:04,400 Speaker 1: Hudson aka Uncle Mark. If you want to show us 1104 01:10:04,400 --> 01:10:07,160 Speaker 1: some love, rate the show and leave us a review. 1105 01:10:07,280 --> 01:10:10,920 Speaker 1: This show is powered by simple cast