1 00:00:00,920 --> 00:00:03,800 Speaker 1: Hey, I'm Baritone Day Thurston and this is how to 2 00:00:03,920 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: Citizen with Baritone Day in season two. We're talking about 3 00:00:08,760 --> 00:00:12,520 Speaker 1: the money, because, to be real, it's hard to citizen 4 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: when we can barely pay the bills. Yo, I have 5 00:00:22,520 --> 00:00:28,000 Speaker 1: a confession. I'm addicted to Amazon. Yep, it's true. Me 6 00:00:28,360 --> 00:00:32,440 Speaker 1: Mr Barraitune Day, Mr shop Local, Mr Man with the 7 00:00:32,479 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: show called How to Citizen with Baritone Day. I can't 8 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:42,000 Speaker 1: stop shopping at the behemoth that is Amazon. But I 9 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:46,640 Speaker 1: also kind of love it. I mean I love the 10 00:00:46,640 --> 00:00:50,640 Speaker 1: next day delivery, the next hour delivery. Sometimes Amazon anticipates 11 00:00:50,680 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: what I want. They're just like, you know you want it. 12 00:00:53,159 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: We know you want it, literally, we know because we 13 00:00:54,920 --> 00:00:57,600 Speaker 1: have all the data about you. So just click the button. 14 00:00:57,840 --> 00:00:59,480 Speaker 1: And I'm like, I don't want to click the button. 15 00:01:00,720 --> 00:01:04,920 Speaker 1: It's convenient, but I'm also trying to quit, that's right. 16 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,319 Speaker 1: I'm trying to slow down the habit. I take deep 17 00:01:07,360 --> 00:01:11,320 Speaker 1: breaths before these purchases. I'm even in a text group 18 00:01:11,400 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: with some friends who are also self admitted Amazon addicts, 19 00:01:16,240 --> 00:01:19,120 Speaker 1: and we're trying not to be. We're working together to 20 00:01:19,319 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 1: slow the spread of the Bezos throughout our wallets and 21 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:27,560 Speaker 1: bank accounts and attention spans, and we're finding other ways 22 00:01:27,680 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 1: to spend our money, other places to get soaked, or 23 00:01:30,600 --> 00:01:35,720 Speaker 1: computer monitors or gardening gloves or well anything, because they 24 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,440 Speaker 1: sell everything. And it's been nice to not feel so alone, 25 00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:42,600 Speaker 1: and I think you can relate. So I split from 26 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:46,600 Speaker 1: Amazon July. But it was difficult because now if you're 27 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:48,880 Speaker 1: part of a working family, you know you're going to 28 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:55,360 Speaker 1: be susceptible to the convenience of a platform like Amazon. 29 00:01:55,640 --> 00:02:00,880 Speaker 1: But Amazon is just such a morally terrible company. So 30 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:02,640 Speaker 1: it's something that I really want to get off of. 31 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,560 Speaker 1: It's just so enticing with their prime shipping and their prices, 32 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:09,400 Speaker 1: and especially during COVID, one of the few places I 33 00:02:09,480 --> 00:02:12,560 Speaker 1: am able to defeat my Amazon habit is with books 34 00:02:12,919 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 1: now for those ten dollar shoelaces that you don't tie. 35 00:02:16,520 --> 00:02:18,840 Speaker 1: And I'm still using Amazon, especially if you're looking for 36 00:02:18,919 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: something that's unique and different. I go to Amazon seriously 37 00:02:25,200 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: in the minute it takes me to complete my Amazon purchase, 38 00:02:28,400 --> 00:02:32,160 Speaker 1: reluctant as I may be, they've already sold over a 39 00:02:32,240 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 1: thousand products to other people. This company is so much 40 00:02:36,880 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: bigger than our individual resistance movements in Amazon. Killed it, 41 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: killed it financially, revenues up thirty eight percent to a 42 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:54,119 Speaker 1: record three hundred eighties six billion dollars and founder Bezos 43 00:02:54,120 --> 00:02:57,440 Speaker 1: founder Jeff Bezos, richest person in the world. He is 44 00:02:57,480 --> 00:03:01,679 Speaker 1: now worth Wait I looked this up. All the money? Yeah, yeah, 45 00:03:01,680 --> 00:03:04,119 Speaker 1: I just I carried the one and it comes out 46 00:03:04,160 --> 00:03:10,400 Speaker 1: to all the money. Now, in the past few episodes, 47 00:03:10,440 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: we've been talking about exclusion and how leaving people of 48 00:03:14,120 --> 00:03:19,120 Speaker 1: color out of the economic system has contributed to massive wealth, inequality, 49 00:03:19,400 --> 00:03:23,200 Speaker 1: and our division. How ownership, whether in business or in 50 00:03:23,280 --> 00:03:27,120 Speaker 1: real estate, can help solve this problem. But that alone 51 00:03:27,240 --> 00:03:29,839 Speaker 1: is not gonna cut it. If you just bring more 52 00:03:29,919 --> 00:03:33,800 Speaker 1: people into an unfair system, that doesn't necessarily make the 53 00:03:33,880 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: system more fair. So we're gonna talk about this concentration 54 00:03:39,680 --> 00:03:43,240 Speaker 1: of power that contributes to our wealth and equality and 55 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: to our division, and we're going to talk about what 56 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: we can do about it. But first I need to 57 00:03:48,160 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: understand what we're dealing with. How does the company like 58 00:03:51,480 --> 00:03:55,120 Speaker 1: Amazon get so big in the first place, Why does 59 00:03:55,160 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: their size even matter? And how can we as citizens 60 00:04:00,160 --> 00:04:03,960 Speaker 1: stop it? So I needed some help. I needed to 61 00:04:04,040 --> 00:04:07,760 Speaker 1: talk to somebody about this. That I tried my therapist 62 00:04:08,120 --> 00:04:10,160 Speaker 1: and they were like, I can't help you with this. 63 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:12,520 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I could work with a lot, but your 64 00:04:12,560 --> 00:04:15,600 Speaker 1: issues with concentrations of corporate powered that's a bit beyond 65 00:04:15,640 --> 00:04:20,520 Speaker 1: my license. So I reached out to somebody else, someone 66 00:04:20,640 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: taking on Amazon head on, someone who saw Amazon's hospital 67 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:29,680 Speaker 1: takeover coming before most of us did. More and more 68 00:04:29,760 --> 00:04:34,080 Speaker 1: of our commerce is moving to this online arena that 69 00:04:34,200 --> 00:04:36,280 Speaker 1: is not at all a market. It is a private 70 00:04:36,320 --> 00:04:40,200 Speaker 1: arena controlled by Amazon. It gets to regulate in essence 71 00:04:40,440 --> 00:05:00,080 Speaker 1: commerce and that's coming up after the break. Heyst Ea, 72 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:02,120 Speaker 1: see how are you. I'm well, it's so nice to 73 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:05,560 Speaker 1: see you. Nice to see you too. So so, Stacy, 74 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,680 Speaker 1: I'd love to start if you could introduce yourself. I'm 75 00:05:09,720 --> 00:05:12,479 Speaker 1: Stacy Mitchell. I'm the co director of the Institute for 76 00:05:12,560 --> 00:05:16,360 Speaker 1: Local Self Reliance, where a research at advocacy organization that 77 00:05:16,480 --> 00:05:19,880 Speaker 1: builds local power to fight corporate control. So we do 78 00:05:19,920 --> 00:05:21,760 Speaker 1: a lot of in depth research looking at how the 79 00:05:21,800 --> 00:05:24,359 Speaker 1: economy works and doesn't work, and what are the ways 80 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:28,120 Speaker 1: that we could make it more democratic, more sustainable, more 81 00:05:28,200 --> 00:05:32,920 Speaker 1: locally rooted. So what's the story of your relationship with Amazon. 82 00:05:33,440 --> 00:05:38,719 Speaker 1: I began to notice Amazon maybe more than fifteen years ago. Now, 83 00:05:38,960 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: as a company that was kind of quietly taking over 84 00:05:43,960 --> 00:05:47,560 Speaker 1: more and more of our commerce. And really the first 85 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:49,599 Speaker 1: thing I noticed about Amazon was that they didn't have 86 00:05:49,600 --> 00:05:52,440 Speaker 1: to collect sales tax. You know, I happened to live 87 00:05:52,440 --> 00:05:54,720 Speaker 1: in a neighborhood and in a community where there are 88 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 1: lots of local businesses within walking distance. With neighborhood, with community, 89 00:05:59,520 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 1: we're talking abot. I live in Portland, Maine. UM, So 90 00:06:03,120 --> 00:06:05,680 Speaker 1: I guess I first started noticing Amazon and sort of 91 00:06:05,720 --> 00:06:09,359 Speaker 1: hearing from those local business owners when I was out 92 00:06:09,520 --> 00:06:13,120 Speaker 1: running errands picking up books or whatever it might be. 93 00:06:13,839 --> 00:06:17,640 Speaker 1: And you know, in many cases they were beginning to 94 00:06:17,640 --> 00:06:20,320 Speaker 1: sell online and to have like another way for people 95 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,679 Speaker 1: to shop with them, but they were having to add 96 00:06:22,720 --> 00:06:25,720 Speaker 1: this sales tax on top of it and finding that customers, 97 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 1: you know, to save that five ten percent were migrating 98 00:06:29,960 --> 00:06:32,920 Speaker 1: to Amazon. And so that was I guess, really the 99 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:36,360 Speaker 1: first time I paid much attention to the company. Um. 100 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:41,720 Speaker 1: And it seemed outrageous to me that government would telt 101 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:43,840 Speaker 1: the playing field, that it would sort of put its 102 00:06:43,880 --> 00:06:49,560 Speaker 1: thumb on the scales in favor of this distant company 103 00:06:49,600 --> 00:06:52,880 Speaker 1: that didn't even have a presence in the community over 104 00:06:53,320 --> 00:06:56,039 Speaker 1: the businesses that we're working really hard to keep their 105 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:00,680 Speaker 1: communities employed and vibrant and happening. Why would we do that? 106 00:07:00,680 --> 00:07:05,200 Speaker 1: That didn't make any sense. Most of us did not 107 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:09,400 Speaker 1: feel a sense of outrage or alarm, but you did. 108 00:07:10,480 --> 00:07:13,800 Speaker 1: So why did you care so early? What was it 109 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 1: about this situation that so animated you. I don't entirely 110 00:07:18,200 --> 00:07:21,320 Speaker 1: really know where it comes from, And honestly, if somewhat 111 00:07:21,360 --> 00:07:26,200 Speaker 1: wondered that my myself, and this partly maybe comes from 112 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,000 Speaker 1: growing up in Maine, because at the time that I 113 00:07:29,040 --> 00:07:32,680 Speaker 1: grew up, it was really devastated economically. You know, there 114 00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:37,400 Speaker 1: had been particularly these like timber companies, big fishing operations 115 00:07:37,440 --> 00:07:39,560 Speaker 1: that had come through and like devastated a lot of 116 00:07:39,560 --> 00:07:43,520 Speaker 1: the state's economy. The city Portland, where I grew up, 117 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 1: by the time I was a teenager, you know, downtown 118 00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: was half vacant. It was a place that was hard 119 00:07:50,160 --> 00:07:53,560 Speaker 1: for people to make a living, that had no life 120 00:07:53,600 --> 00:07:56,280 Speaker 1: to it, and was at the losing end of a 121 00:07:56,320 --> 00:07:59,800 Speaker 1: lot of decisions that were made very far away and 122 00:07:59,800 --> 00:08:02,920 Speaker 1: with no consideration for the impacts that they were having here, 123 00:08:02,920 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: and certainly not being made by the people who felt 124 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,600 Speaker 1: those impacts. So as a teenager, I think I felt 125 00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:10,560 Speaker 1: that injustice very much and was a punk rock kid 126 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: who you know, spent a lot of time downtown in 127 00:08:13,760 --> 00:08:19,080 Speaker 1: these sort of vacant places, wanting to reanimate them, you know. 128 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:21,480 Speaker 1: And this, of course, there was an era when most 129 00:08:21,480 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: of the other kids were at the Mall, which had 130 00:08:23,720 --> 00:08:25,040 Speaker 1: was one of the things that had done a lot 131 00:08:25,040 --> 00:08:28,240 Speaker 1: of devastation to the to the downtown. I'm having this 132 00:08:28,400 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 1: picture in my mind. I want you to help me 133 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:34,520 Speaker 1: fill it in punk rock, Stacy Mitchell, tell me, tell 134 00:08:34,520 --> 00:08:37,400 Speaker 1: me about teenage punk rocks. Daisy, What are you wearing? 135 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:39,520 Speaker 1: How what are you Where are you hanging out? And 136 00:08:39,520 --> 00:08:42,640 Speaker 1: how are you interacting with this half vacant downtown port 137 00:08:42,840 --> 00:08:46,840 Speaker 1: Oh my goodness. Yeah, I mean, you know, all the stuff, 138 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:50,520 Speaker 1: the ripped up nylons and the dyed hair and filt 139 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:54,960 Speaker 1: leather jackets or jean jackets with safety pins, all that 140 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:59,720 Speaker 1: good stuff. And we took over empty spaces for music 141 00:08:59,800 --> 00:09:02,679 Speaker 1: and for you know, sort of gatherings of that sort. 142 00:09:03,040 --> 00:09:05,480 Speaker 1: You know, it was self invented because we weren't in 143 00:09:05,559 --> 00:09:08,000 Speaker 1: New York or any place that mattered, So it was 144 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:11,000 Speaker 1: kind of a sort of bottom up local version of 145 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:17,760 Speaker 1: of punk rock. Your punk rock was local and self reliant. 146 00:09:16,960 --> 00:09:20,560 Speaker 1: It's okay, it wasn't New York. That's fine. It was 147 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:26,320 Speaker 1: yours and you invented it for yourself. What's the leap 148 00:09:26,440 --> 00:09:32,000 Speaker 1: from this punk rock social justice teenager too working more 149 00:09:32,080 --> 00:09:37,120 Speaker 1: formally against the influences of big businesses? I am. I 150 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 1: moved out to St. Paul, Minnesota and went to college, 151 00:09:40,360 --> 00:09:44,559 Speaker 1: and UM, I decided to study history, and I think 152 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,360 Speaker 1: particularly because I was interested in how things change. If 153 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,439 Speaker 1: you don't like the way things are, how do they 154 00:09:49,480 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: shift and what are the forces that make them shift. 155 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: But then after college, I am, you know, I was 156 00:09:55,400 --> 00:09:58,400 Speaker 1: looking for someplace to work, and I was sort of 157 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:01,320 Speaker 1: torn between on the one hand to be an activist 158 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: and on the other hand wanting to do like research, 159 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:07,360 Speaker 1: like maybe be an academic. And I ran across an 160 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 1: ad for this organization, the Institute for Local Self Reliance UM, 161 00:10:10,960 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: looking for a research assistant. And it was a good 162 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: marrying of those two things. And so I've now been 163 00:10:17,120 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 1: at elis R for about twenty years. Yeah. So you 164 00:10:21,640 --> 00:10:25,240 Speaker 1: get to the Institute for Local Self Reliance, when do 165 00:10:25,280 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 1: you decide to take on Amazon? We fought on the 166 00:10:30,120 --> 00:10:33,800 Speaker 1: sales tax fight for a while. UM, and ultimately it 167 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,040 Speaker 1: took many years and was way too late in some 168 00:10:36,040 --> 00:10:39,480 Speaker 1: sense to even matter, but we ultimately one um and 169 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,439 Speaker 1: along the way I just kept being struck by where 170 00:10:43,480 --> 00:10:48,560 Speaker 1: this company was going. I remember thinking around. I mean, 171 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: it felt like when you're on the tarmac, when you're 172 00:10:51,040 --> 00:10:54,319 Speaker 1: on a plane that's about to take off, and you're 173 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,079 Speaker 1: and you're moving down the runway at this huge speed 174 00:10:57,240 --> 00:10:59,320 Speaker 1: and you're about to get airborne, and at that point 175 00:11:00,040 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 1: money you take off completely. And it felt like we 176 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,040 Speaker 1: were at that moment and that the implications of this 177 00:11:07,120 --> 00:11:12,480 Speaker 1: were really far reaching. And so in we set out 178 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:15,400 Speaker 1: to try to do an in depth look at the 179 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,280 Speaker 1: nature of Amazon's power and the scope of this company 180 00:11:18,640 --> 00:11:22,199 Speaker 1: and what its implications were, and I, together with a 181 00:11:22,280 --> 00:11:26,480 Speaker 1: researcher here um Olivia Lavekia, we wrote this big report 182 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: called Amazon Stranglehold that looked at Amazon's monopoly power, sort 183 00:11:30,360 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: of analyze the nature of what exactly what is Amazon. 184 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:36,440 Speaker 1: It's not a retailer, it's something different, you know, so 185 00:11:36,520 --> 00:11:39,679 Speaker 1: analyzing what that was, how it gained that sort of power, 186 00:11:39,760 --> 00:11:43,200 Speaker 1: and then what were the impacts for independent businesses, for 187 00:11:43,320 --> 00:11:48,440 Speaker 1: producers and creators and authors, for working people and ultimately communities, 188 00:11:49,440 --> 00:11:52,320 Speaker 1: And then we used that report to go around and 189 00:11:52,760 --> 00:11:56,080 Speaker 1: talk to journalists, talk to policymakers, talk to other advocates, 190 00:11:56,080 --> 00:11:57,640 Speaker 1: and say, this is something you really need to be 191 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,160 Speaker 1: paying attention to. And that helped to be in a 192 00:12:00,200 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: conversation that I think brought much more attention to the 193 00:12:03,160 --> 00:12:09,280 Speaker 1: implications of Amazon. You say, Amazon is not a retailer, 194 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:14,000 Speaker 1: it's something else, and I hear dramatic music in the background. 195 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,400 Speaker 1: What is it? So? What? What is? What is Amazon? 196 00:12:19,400 --> 00:12:25,720 Speaker 1: You know what makes Amazon more dangerous than other monopolistic 197 00:12:25,800 --> 00:12:28,640 Speaker 1: firms like Walmart is that Amazon doesn't simply want to 198 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:32,160 Speaker 1: dominate markets. You know, Walmart dominates the food industry, and 199 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:36,239 Speaker 1: that's a serious problem with lots of implications. But Amazon 200 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:40,839 Speaker 1: isn't about dominating markets. It's about being the market. It's 201 00:12:40,840 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: about being the underlying infrastructure that other companies need in 202 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:51,199 Speaker 1: order to reach customers. So their online platform, their website, 203 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,400 Speaker 1: captures about two thirds of online shopping traffic. When people 204 00:12:55,440 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: are looking to buy something online in the US, two 205 00:12:58,559 --> 00:13:01,560 Speaker 1: thirds of them start at Amazon, which means that if 206 00:13:01,559 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: you're not selling on Amazon's platform, you're giving up two 207 00:13:05,400 --> 00:13:08,079 Speaker 1: thirds of the market right out of the gate. It's 208 00:13:08,120 --> 00:13:10,160 Speaker 1: kind of like the Google search result. You know, people 209 00:13:10,240 --> 00:13:14,040 Speaker 1: start their Internet searches through Google primarily. Amazon is like 210 00:13:14,120 --> 00:13:17,280 Speaker 1: that for online retail exactly, and it didn't used to 211 00:13:17,280 --> 00:13:19,920 Speaker 1: be this way. You can go back six seven years ago. 212 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,480 Speaker 1: You're looking for a pair of running shoes. You would 213 00:13:22,520 --> 00:13:24,640 Speaker 1: type it into a search engine, maybe Google, which is 214 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:27,080 Speaker 1: its own problem, but you would get a bunch of results. 215 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: It would include Amazon, but it would include maybe your 216 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 1: local independent running shoe store or a manufacturer. Now people 217 00:13:33,320 --> 00:13:37,480 Speaker 1: just started Amazon, you know, there's the online shopping platform. 218 00:13:37,559 --> 00:13:40,200 Speaker 1: But then to that, Jeff Bezos has added these other 219 00:13:40,240 --> 00:13:46,200 Speaker 1: sort of core pieces of infrastructure. One is cloud computing. 220 00:13:46,840 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 1: Amazon controls about of the world's cloud computing capacity. What 221 00:13:53,440 --> 00:13:56,959 Speaker 1: that means is that more and more companies of all kinds, 222 00:13:57,040 --> 00:14:00,520 Speaker 1: governments of all kinds are moving their data into a cloud. 223 00:14:00,800 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 1: A huge amount of that globally is now running on 224 00:14:03,720 --> 00:14:09,600 Speaker 1: Amazon's infrastructure. Netflix, big publishing houses like Condemnast, the CIA. 225 00:14:09,920 --> 00:14:12,880 Speaker 1: I mean, it's a long list of entities that rely 226 00:14:13,000 --> 00:14:16,640 Speaker 1: on Amazon's infrastructure. And then there are these other big pieces. 227 00:14:16,679 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: Amazon has lately become an enormous logistics and package delivery operation. 228 00:14:22,080 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 1: They now are delivering so many packages, not only their 229 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:28,520 Speaker 1: their own, but those of other companies that they're rivaling 230 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:33,280 Speaker 1: ups and the postal service in terms of size. And 231 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:38,000 Speaker 1: they have built Alexa, this voice interface that powers are 232 00:14:38,080 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: smart homes, and are smart offices and a whole bunch 233 00:14:40,760 --> 00:14:44,360 Speaker 1: of like smart industrial processes. It is the interface that 234 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:46,480 Speaker 1: other companies have to use if they want to have 235 00:14:46,560 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: their devices and their applications be voice enabled. If you 236 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: want to sell something and reach customers online, you have 237 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:58,040 Speaker 1: to do it on Amazon. If you want to ship 238 00:14:58,160 --> 00:15:00,240 Speaker 1: something and have it reach customers the next day, you 239 00:15:00,240 --> 00:15:02,720 Speaker 1: have to do it through Amazon's logistics. If you want 240 00:15:02,760 --> 00:15:05,920 Speaker 1: to have your data in the cloud, Amazon again is 241 00:15:05,920 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 1: the dominant provider there. And because of that, Amazon has 242 00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,880 Speaker 1: this godlike view of a huge amount of the activity 243 00:15:12,920 --> 00:15:16,280 Speaker 1: that's occurring across the economy, and it can pick off 244 00:15:16,400 --> 00:15:19,560 Speaker 1: using all of that intelligence that it has, it can 245 00:15:19,600 --> 00:15:23,440 Speaker 1: pick off these lucrative streams of revenue and preference its 246 00:15:23,440 --> 00:15:27,440 Speaker 1: own products and services on that infrastructure, and for the 247 00:15:27,480 --> 00:15:30,120 Speaker 1: stuff that it doesn't want to do itself, it can 248 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:33,920 Speaker 1: just levy a huge tax on the activities of other 249 00:15:33,960 --> 00:15:37,600 Speaker 1: companies that rely on that infrastructure. So either way it wins, 250 00:15:37,640 --> 00:15:40,000 Speaker 1: and this begins to explain how it is that Jeff 251 00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,880 Speaker 1: Bezos has become so incredibly wealthy to be the richest 252 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:46,760 Speaker 1: man in the world with almost two hundred billion dollars 253 00:15:46,800 --> 00:15:54,040 Speaker 1: to his name. Wow, So what form does that tax take? 254 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,080 Speaker 1: Because it seems a bit ironic given the company's origins 255 00:15:57,160 --> 00:15:59,920 Speaker 1: in evading sales taxes to be able to levy taxes 256 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:03,800 Speaker 1: on businesses that are on its platform. That's right, I 257 00:16:03,840 --> 00:16:06,280 Speaker 1: think how we part of how we need to begin 258 00:16:06,320 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 1: to understand these monopolistic companies like Amazon is as a 259 00:16:10,840 --> 00:16:14,880 Speaker 1: form of private government. That's the nature of their power. 260 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: And it's also begins to help us see how what 261 00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:20,400 Speaker 1: they're doing is a direct threat to democracy. You know, 262 00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:22,680 Speaker 1: in a in a democratic society, a market should be 263 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,680 Speaker 1: an open place governed by rules that are set through 264 00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:28,960 Speaker 1: a public process, where everyone who participates in that market 265 00:16:29,040 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 1: is on equal footing more or less, but more and 266 00:16:33,160 --> 00:16:37,440 Speaker 1: more of our commerce because of Amazon, is moving to 267 00:16:37,720 --> 00:16:41,520 Speaker 1: this online arena that is not at all a marketplace. 268 00:16:41,560 --> 00:16:45,080 Speaker 1: Amazon calls it a marketplace. It is a private arena 269 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 1: controlled by Amazon. It gets to decide who's at the 270 00:16:47,800 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 1: top of the search results, which products do you encounter 271 00:16:50,360 --> 00:16:53,760 Speaker 1: when you enter certain words, it gets to regulate in 272 00:16:53,920 --> 00:16:58,760 Speaker 1: essence commerce and it also gets to levy attacks, and 273 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:03,720 Speaker 1: lots of manufact surers and retailers small and large really 274 00:17:03,720 --> 00:17:05,600 Speaker 1: feel that they have no choice but to try to 275 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 1: sell there. Most of them are failing as they do it, 276 00:17:08,920 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: in part because the cost of selling on Amazon is 277 00:17:11,720 --> 00:17:14,840 Speaker 1: so steep. Five years ago, Amazon was taking an average 278 00:17:14,880 --> 00:17:18,200 Speaker 1: of nineteen percent of every dollar a seller made on 279 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,880 Speaker 1: on its platform. Now it's up to thirty on average, 280 00:17:21,880 --> 00:17:25,680 Speaker 1: and many sellers are paying even more. What I hear 281 00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:29,280 Speaker 1: from these businesses is that they're giving more to Amazon 282 00:17:29,560 --> 00:17:33,200 Speaker 1: than their entire payroll and profit, Meaning Amazon, for hosting 283 00:17:33,240 --> 00:17:36,440 Speaker 1: a website is taking more from that business than all 284 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 1: the people who work there and make it happen. It 285 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:43,040 Speaker 1: is a form of tax that's inescapable because of Amazon's 286 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: market power, and it's part of how the company is 287 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,160 Speaker 1: so incredibly wealthy, and it's part of what powers Amazon's 288 00:17:49,160 --> 00:17:52,000 Speaker 1: ability to move into one market after another with this 289 00:17:52,080 --> 00:17:59,919 Speaker 1: built in advantage. There's something beautifully heinous ly ironic about 290 00:18:00,760 --> 00:18:06,040 Speaker 1: Amazon initiating its advantage on a five avoidance of sales 291 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:11,159 Speaker 1: tax and then levying through its sales commission. That's a 292 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:14,160 Speaker 1: neat trick. I wish I could do that. That sounds 293 00:18:14,200 --> 00:18:16,320 Speaker 1: like a good way to make a lot of money. 294 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:20,000 Speaker 1: So so I think you've made a case for from 295 00:18:20,000 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 1: from my understanding, Amazon is not simply a retailer. It's 296 00:18:23,760 --> 00:18:27,480 Speaker 1: not just a store. It's infrastructure, and it's infrastructure that 297 00:18:28,160 --> 00:18:33,320 Speaker 1: other stores, manufacturers, retailers depend on to reach customers. Because 298 00:18:33,359 --> 00:18:38,119 Speaker 1: it has such dominance of online purchasing and of cloud computing, 299 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: and of increasingly logistics and physical delivery of goods. So 300 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,280 Speaker 1: they've left the virtual world and are severely affecting the 301 00:18:45,280 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: physical world too. So if you were a business, you 302 00:18:48,359 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 1: kind of need Amazon. Um, how does Amazon squash competition? 303 00:18:56,400 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 1: Amazon squashes competition by positioning itself as a gatekeeper. If 304 00:19:01,400 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 1: you control the roadway that the vast majority of traffic 305 00:19:06,800 --> 00:19:11,560 Speaker 1: is traveling down, then you control what that traffic sees. 306 00:19:12,040 --> 00:19:16,480 Speaker 1: And so from that position, Amazon can pick winners and losers, 307 00:19:16,480 --> 00:19:19,320 Speaker 1: and in particular, can favor its own products. You know, 308 00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:23,080 Speaker 1: a small company has a best selling product, really inventive 309 00:19:23,160 --> 00:19:26,000 Speaker 1: kind of product. Amazon sees that on its site and 310 00:19:26,040 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: then it then it actually copies that product, creates an 311 00:19:28,800 --> 00:19:32,159 Speaker 1: Amazon brand version of it. And gives itself top billing 312 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:35,320 Speaker 1: in the search for results, and overnight that company that 313 00:19:35,400 --> 00:19:40,320 Speaker 1: invented that sees its sales fall just absolutely drop off. 314 00:19:40,320 --> 00:19:44,639 Speaker 1: A cliff we Um profiled in one of our reports 315 00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,280 Speaker 1: last year a business called the Top Shelf that sells 316 00:19:48,800 --> 00:19:53,560 Speaker 1: hair and barbershop kinds of supplies. And they did a 317 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:57,600 Speaker 1: decent business selling on Amazon and elsewhere. Um. But over time, 318 00:19:57,880 --> 00:20:00,800 Speaker 1: as they became successful, it was almost like, as the 319 00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:02,919 Speaker 1: owner said to me, it's almost like Amazon noticed that 320 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: a lot of that revenue was coming to us, and 321 00:20:05,320 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 1: all of a sudden, we've got new fees, we've got 322 00:20:08,119 --> 00:20:11,000 Speaker 1: new you know, some of our inventories missing, and we're 323 00:20:11,000 --> 00:20:14,040 Speaker 1: spending a lot of time working that out. The fees 324 00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: keep going up year after year, and suddenly our margin 325 00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:19,320 Speaker 1: is gone. You know, he had built up a business 326 00:20:19,320 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 1: selling online with about fifty employees, a warehouse he was 327 00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:25,159 Speaker 1: up in Michigan. He was really excited about kind of 328 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: bringing jobs to his community. And then you know, in 329 00:20:28,600 --> 00:20:32,040 Speaker 1: a matter of months, he's starting to lose money. He's 330 00:20:32,040 --> 00:20:34,400 Speaker 1: heading into the red, he's having to lay people off, 331 00:20:35,080 --> 00:20:38,560 Speaker 1: and then there's a dispute. Amazon says that one of 332 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,240 Speaker 1: his items that he's selling his counterfeit, which he says 333 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:44,960 Speaker 1: is not the case, but they immediately suspend his account, 334 00:20:45,080 --> 00:20:48,640 Speaker 1: no sales. He goes to zero overnight, and they seize 335 00:20:48,720 --> 00:20:52,200 Speaker 1: tens of thousands of dollars of his inventory. And as 336 00:20:52,240 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 1: it turns out, when you sign on to become an 337 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:58,239 Speaker 1: Amazon seller, the terms of service, just the standard thing 338 00:20:58,280 --> 00:21:01,520 Speaker 1: that everyone has to agree to, includes this little provision 339 00:21:01,520 --> 00:21:04,399 Speaker 1: in there that says you can't go to court if 340 00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:05,960 Speaker 1: you have a dispute. You have to go through an 341 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: arbitration process that Amazon sets up. So now he's waiting 342 00:21:11,200 --> 00:21:15,040 Speaker 1: for this arbitration process and he's lost all his inventory, 343 00:21:15,119 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 1: he's been shut off from selling, and you know, he 344 00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:23,920 Speaker 1: can't even get anyone from Amazon on the phone. We'll 345 00:21:23,920 --> 00:21:45,960 Speaker 1: be right back. M We hear about this term monopoly, 346 00:21:46,240 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 1: in this term anti trust, not necessarily knowing what they mean. Yeah, Um, 347 00:21:51,640 --> 00:21:54,480 Speaker 1: what monopoly ultimately means as a company that has enough 348 00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: power to basically bully and tell people what to do 349 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,240 Speaker 1: because it's so dominant in that market. And it's a 350 00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:03,400 Speaker 1: level of power that can be achieved with something less 351 00:22:03,400 --> 00:22:05,639 Speaker 1: than a d percent of the market, considerably less than 352 00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:08,240 Speaker 1: a percent of the market. So that's what a monopoly is, 353 00:22:09,400 --> 00:22:13,800 Speaker 1: and so anti monopoly has been part of our country's 354 00:22:14,440 --> 00:22:17,360 Speaker 1: policy really since the beginning. I mean the Boston Tea 355 00:22:17,400 --> 00:22:20,560 Speaker 1: Party when colonists through all that tea into Boston Harbor, 356 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:24,960 Speaker 1: was partly a protest against the power of Parliament, but 357 00:22:25,000 --> 00:22:27,760 Speaker 1: it was very much a protest against the East India Company, 358 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:32,840 Speaker 1: this global corporation of its day that dominated the tea 359 00:22:32,920 --> 00:22:35,440 Speaker 1: trade and in fact had gotten a special deal with 360 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:38,120 Speaker 1: the British Parliament where it didn't have to pay taxes. 361 00:22:38,160 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: It was given all of these advantages in the colonies, 362 00:22:40,920 --> 00:22:44,040 Speaker 1: and the colonists mad at the government and mad at 363 00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:47,080 Speaker 1: this dominant company and the effects that had on local 364 00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: tea merchants through a bunch of its tea into Boston Harbor. 365 00:22:50,160 --> 00:22:52,320 Speaker 1: So so from the beginning there was this understanding you 366 00:22:52,359 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: had to deal with private power if you wanted to 367 00:22:54,240 --> 00:22:58,280 Speaker 1: have a democracy. So we began to pass laws. Uh 368 00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:01,840 Speaker 1: those laws where the state level and still are, but 369 00:23:01,880 --> 00:23:03,840 Speaker 1: they began to be this time in the late nineteenth 370 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: century where powerful corporations began to span multiple states, and 371 00:23:09,359 --> 00:23:13,919 Speaker 1: they often evaded those state laws to control their power 372 00:23:14,720 --> 00:23:17,080 Speaker 1: by forming what we're known at the time as trusts. 373 00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,639 Speaker 1: This sort of other level of decision making above the corporation, 374 00:23:20,640 --> 00:23:22,920 Speaker 1: where they were sort of knitted together in a trust. 375 00:23:23,320 --> 00:23:25,880 Speaker 1: And that's how they sort of side stept those state laws. 376 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:28,680 Speaker 1: And so that gave rise to the need for federal 377 00:23:28,760 --> 00:23:31,800 Speaker 1: laws to control their power. And they're known as antitrust laws, 378 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: so against the power of those of those trusts. So 379 00:23:35,600 --> 00:23:40,280 Speaker 1: a trust was like a legal entity that these companies 380 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:43,479 Speaker 1: created to avoid accountability at the state level. And then 381 00:23:43,480 --> 00:23:45,800 Speaker 1: the Feds come in and say, hold up, wait a minute, 382 00:23:46,200 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 1: and when what do they do? And so it's really 383 00:23:48,800 --> 00:23:52,600 Speaker 1: not until the nineteen thirties, and particularly with Franklin Roosevelt, 384 00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:56,239 Speaker 1: that we get sort of the full implementation of our 385 00:23:56,280 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: antitrust laws on the point a new basis of security 386 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:05,640 Speaker 1: and prosperity. And he looks across the country at all 387 00:24:05,640 --> 00:24:08,520 Speaker 1: of these problems, you know, farmers not being able to 388 00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,600 Speaker 1: make a living, people being out of work, the collapse 389 00:24:11,640 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: of the banking system, and so on, and he recognizes 390 00:24:15,520 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 1: that a lot of them have to do with a 391 00:24:16,680 --> 00:24:22,080 Speaker 1: concentration of private power and of monopoly, freedom from unfair competition, 392 00:24:22,160 --> 00:24:28,720 Speaker 1: and dominating my monopoli abroad. And so, particularly in his 393 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 1: second term, begins this really strong anti monopoly campaign, and 394 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,880 Speaker 1: we have a number of decades where that New Deal 395 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:40,960 Speaker 1: thinking really really guides things. It's really important to pause 396 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,639 Speaker 1: here and sort of step back from this to just say, obviously, 397 00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 1: for much of our history, we had a very narrow 398 00:24:48,240 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 1: idea of who counted as a citizen right, and so 399 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:56,639 Speaker 1: black Americans, women, gay Americans, others were locked out of 400 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:01,520 Speaker 1: these economic rights for much of that story. And so 401 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: we begin to see in the middle of the twentieth century, 402 00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:09,560 Speaker 1: with those New Deal policies in place, the civil rights movement, 403 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:12,240 Speaker 1: the women's rights movement, and so I'm beginning to gain ground. 404 00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:16,840 Speaker 1: After World War Two, there's this period of broadening prosperity 405 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,240 Speaker 1: where you have a rising middle class, you have an 406 00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:24,600 Speaker 1: incredible vibrancy of small businesses in the fifties and sixties 407 00:25:25,040 --> 00:25:27,959 Speaker 1: across lots of different sectors of the economy. You know, 408 00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: in the nineteen seventies we had more black owned small 409 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,560 Speaker 1: businesses than we than we do today. And so the 410 00:25:33,600 --> 00:25:36,800 Speaker 1: combination of those two things, this control of private power, 411 00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:40,160 Speaker 1: which was done through anti monopoly and pro union policies 412 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,960 Speaker 1: and pro small business policies, and the rising ground up 413 00:25:44,000 --> 00:25:47,880 Speaker 1: push to include everybody and who counted as a citizen. 414 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:52,280 Speaker 1: Those two things together brought us our greatest period of 415 00:25:52,280 --> 00:26:00,240 Speaker 1: of expanding prosperity. And then in the nineteen v and 416 00:26:00,320 --> 00:26:03,159 Speaker 1: DS we took a different turn when it came to 417 00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,840 Speaker 1: corporate power and have been on this downwards traj dilectory 418 00:26:05,840 --> 00:26:11,639 Speaker 1: ever since. So it sounds like something happened in the 419 00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:15,160 Speaker 1: rule system what started to happen in the ninet seventies 420 00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:18,280 Speaker 1: that led us to a world where Amazon could dominate 421 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: as much as it does. You know, in some ways, 422 00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:25,199 Speaker 1: our anti monopoly policies had been working so well that 423 00:26:25,320 --> 00:26:28,480 Speaker 1: people kind of lost sight of the need for them, 424 00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:31,280 Speaker 1: and they just sort of disappeared a bit from public view. 425 00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 1: And in that environment, there were a group of law 426 00:26:37,000 --> 00:26:41,840 Speaker 1: and economics scholars associated with the University of Chicago who 427 00:26:41,880 --> 00:26:45,320 Speaker 1: came along with a set of ideas, and the ideas 428 00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:49,560 Speaker 1: essentially were that all of the stuff about power doesn't matter. 429 00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:53,919 Speaker 1: The only thing that matters is maximizing efficiency, and you know, 430 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:57,000 Speaker 1: we should build bigger and bigger industries that are ever 431 00:26:57,119 --> 00:27:01,760 Speaker 1: more efficient and can put out more off for less money. 432 00:27:02,359 --> 00:27:05,800 Speaker 1: That was their thinking. Bigger is better and efficiency is 433 00:27:05,800 --> 00:27:10,160 Speaker 1: the only thing that matters. What happened is this University 434 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:14,879 Speaker 1: of Chicago thinking becomes codified during Reagan's term. So the 435 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:18,800 Speaker 1: laws are still there, but the antitrust agencies radically change 436 00:27:18,840 --> 00:27:21,800 Speaker 1: how they interpret the laws so that they're no longer 437 00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,879 Speaker 1: about dispersing power. They're no longer about our rights as 438 00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:28,080 Speaker 1: workers and as producers of value. There's solely about this 439 00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:32,400 Speaker 1: measure of efficiency. And the courts also began to follow along. 440 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:38,280 Speaker 1: You've described this shift in our prioritization in America toward efficiency, 441 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:43,479 Speaker 1: bigness scale in the parlance of our Silicon Valley friends, 442 00:27:44,480 --> 00:27:47,800 Speaker 1: and I bar a tuned a the consumer and maybe 443 00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:51,080 Speaker 1: the citizen, but certainly the consumer. I kind of like it. 444 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,240 Speaker 1: It's very seductive, you know, the stuff shows up before 445 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,919 Speaker 1: I even order it, it feels like and it seems 446 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,680 Speaker 1: like a very easy case to make that, whether we're 447 00:28:01,680 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: talking about Amazon specifically or a big, efficient business with 448 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:11,359 Speaker 1: great customer service and low prices generally is good for 449 00:28:11,440 --> 00:28:16,399 Speaker 1: most of us. You don't think that, though, well, I 450 00:28:16,440 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: would say, you know, the solution to this doesn't mean 451 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:22,200 Speaker 1: giving up online commerce. It doesn't mean giving up having 452 00:28:22,240 --> 00:28:25,119 Speaker 1: the package arrive at your front door. I mean to 453 00:28:25,200 --> 00:28:27,480 Speaker 1: just go back into history one more time. You know, 454 00:28:27,520 --> 00:28:29,480 Speaker 1: we encountered this with the railroads. You know, when the 455 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: railroads came along, you know, there's this fabulous new technology 456 00:28:33,280 --> 00:28:35,720 Speaker 1: that changed everything and suddenly stuff could get around the 457 00:28:35,760 --> 00:28:38,080 Speaker 1: country and it was amazing. But there were a handful 458 00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:41,680 Speaker 1: of industrialists who gained control of those rails. We came 459 00:28:41,720 --> 00:28:43,640 Speaker 1: along and the answer wasn't like, oh, let's get rid 460 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:45,680 Speaker 1: of the railroads. We should go back to horse and buggy. 461 00:28:45,720 --> 00:28:48,400 Speaker 1: It was like, no, we need to have regulation. We 462 00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: need to write some rules around this. And that's the 463 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:53,760 Speaker 1: same thing with Amazon. I think we need to break 464 00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:55,920 Speaker 1: up the company into a few different pieces, and then 465 00:28:55,960 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: I think we need to regulate it. And I think 466 00:28:57,920 --> 00:29:00,560 Speaker 1: where that leads us then is an economy which we 467 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 1: all have more of an ability to make a good living, 468 00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: and we get the conveniences of online shopping and more 469 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:11,000 Speaker 1: choice that we see other platforms, other businesses being able 470 00:29:11,040 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 1: to come along and succeed, and indeed, businesses that might 471 00:29:14,240 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: come along with a brand new idea, you know, the 472 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: same way that Jeff Bezos came along with a new idea. Right. 473 00:29:20,920 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 1: I feel a sense of maybe relief hearing you say that, 474 00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,360 Speaker 1: so should I quit Amazon. Right, That's that's the question 475 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:32,680 Speaker 1: that's on my mind. It's on so many minds. What 476 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,000 Speaker 1: do you think about someone asking that question of themselves, 477 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:40,400 Speaker 1: should we be quitting Amazon? Should you stop shopping on Amazon? Well, 478 00:29:40,720 --> 00:29:43,760 Speaker 1: I would say, you know, look around. There are probably 479 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,480 Speaker 1: a lot of businesses in your community, some of them 480 00:29:46,480 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 1: selling online directly themselves, and great small and midsized businesses 481 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:54,800 Speaker 1: across the country that are wonderful places to support and 482 00:29:54,840 --> 00:29:58,240 Speaker 1: that needs your dollars. And so there's a fun invitation 483 00:29:58,320 --> 00:30:01,080 Speaker 1: there to think of out of other places that you 484 00:30:01,120 --> 00:30:04,560 Speaker 1: could you could go. Um, but should you feel guilty 485 00:30:04,640 --> 00:30:07,280 Speaker 1: about those times when you order an Amazon No, not 486 00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,720 Speaker 1: at all. You should not at all feel like this 487 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:15,040 Speaker 1: is on you as a consumer to solve that. This 488 00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,600 Speaker 1: is on us, you know, to like change our purchasing 489 00:30:17,640 --> 00:30:19,440 Speaker 1: decisions and try to get enough of us to do 490 00:30:19,480 --> 00:30:22,800 Speaker 1: the same thing to fix this problem. We've been sort 491 00:30:22,800 --> 00:30:27,280 Speaker 1: of trained to think of ourselves are economic agency, our 492 00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,800 Speaker 1: our ability to act in the economy entirely as consumers 493 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:36,480 Speaker 1: and forgetting that as citizens, that's where our real power lies. 494 00:30:36,520 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: That's where our real muscle is, and that's the muscle 495 00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:41,720 Speaker 1: that we need to turn to to deal with the 496 00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:48,840 Speaker 1: Amazon problem. You know, I can't um overstate how exciting 497 00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:51,560 Speaker 1: what is happening in Congress is right now. There is 498 00:30:51,600 --> 00:30:54,720 Speaker 1: a growing movement of foot in Congress um and across 499 00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:57,840 Speaker 1: the country to reinvigorate our anti monopoly policies and in 500 00:30:57,880 --> 00:31:01,360 Speaker 1: particular to restructure Amazon and is that would be more democratic. 501 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:05,040 Speaker 1: In the House of Representatives, there's the the Antitrust Subcommittee 502 00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: run by a lawmaker named David Cecilini out of Rhode Island. 503 00:31:08,640 --> 00:31:11,440 Speaker 1: The purpose of today's hearing is to examine the dominance 504 00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:15,040 Speaker 1: of Amazon, Apple, Facebook, and Google. He ran a year 505 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:17,600 Speaker 1: and a half long investigation of big tech and Amazon 506 00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 1: last fall came out with a big report outlining a 507 00:31:20,880 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 1: set of recommendations. Their ability to dictate terms, call the shots, 508 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:29,600 Speaker 1: up end entire sectors, and inspire fear, represent the powers 509 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: of a private government. We are having a real conversation 510 00:31:33,400 --> 00:31:36,520 Speaker 1: at the highest level of government about monopoly power, about 511 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: resurrecting our anti trust laws. We're having hearings all last 512 00:31:39,800 --> 00:31:42,560 Speaker 1: year and this year about how we took a wrong 513 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: turn in the nineteen seventies and eighties and where we 514 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: lost our way and how we get it back. Our 515 00:31:47,520 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: Founders would not bow before king, nor should we bow 516 00:31:51,080 --> 00:31:55,600 Speaker 1: before the emperors of the Alan economy. And so we're 517 00:31:55,600 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 1: gonna have a real fight on our hands as citizens 518 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,440 Speaker 1: about whether we live in a country that we control, 519 00:32:01,560 --> 00:32:04,240 Speaker 1: that we set their rules for, or a country where 520 00:32:04,360 --> 00:32:08,640 Speaker 1: Amazon decides how our economy works. And I really want 521 00:32:08,640 --> 00:32:15,160 Speaker 1: to win that fight. And so we're gonna need a 522 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,560 Speaker 1: lot of voices, making calls, getting engaged on this issue. 523 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: And so we just invite people to come to our 524 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:26,239 Speaker 1: website and get involved. Be real with me, Stacy, do 525 00:32:26,320 --> 00:32:30,479 Speaker 1: you still do any shopping at Amazon? I am an 526 00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:35,360 Speaker 1: Amazon Prime member in part because I like that television streaming. 527 00:32:35,680 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 1: I can't not have all the shows. But I do 528 00:32:37,880 --> 00:32:42,120 Speaker 1: actually find there's relatively rare for me to shop on Amazon. 529 00:32:42,600 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: But again, I know that a lot of people are 530 00:32:45,040 --> 00:32:48,840 Speaker 1: in different circumstances, and so you know, not everyone has 531 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:55,080 Speaker 1: that option. As someone who um who's seeing Portland's Maine 532 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: go through ups and down, some devastation and some rebuilding, 533 00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:05,400 Speaker 1: what do you think we lose in our communities when 534 00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: we lose small businesses. We lose a lot of what 535 00:33:08,640 --> 00:33:12,600 Speaker 1: makes the places we live interesting. When you are able 536 00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:17,240 Speaker 1: to go out and run your errands, in local businesses, 537 00:33:17,280 --> 00:33:21,120 Speaker 1: in your neighborhood, in your downtown, you and very believe 538 00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,280 Speaker 1: bump into neighbors. You know, it's a lot of acquaintances. 539 00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:27,920 Speaker 1: But those interactions have a lot to do with our 540 00:33:27,960 --> 00:33:30,080 Speaker 1: own well being, but more importantly, they have a lot 541 00:33:30,160 --> 00:33:31,640 Speaker 1: to do with the well being of the place that 542 00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:34,880 Speaker 1: we live. We know from sociological research that when people 543 00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,240 Speaker 1: you know have has happenstance interactions with their neighbors, that 544 00:33:38,320 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: there is more of a sense of connection, There is 545 00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,680 Speaker 1: more empathy, there's a more more of a sense that 546 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:47,360 Speaker 1: we are in this together. And therefore, one of the 547 00:33:47,360 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: things that sociologists find is that people who live in 548 00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,840 Speaker 1: communities that have lots of local businesses, lots of those 549 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 1: kinds of interactions, are more likely to participate in city 550 00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:59,760 Speaker 1: council meetings, to engage in community organizations, and to vote. 551 00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:06,200 Speaker 1: Stacy Mitchell, thank you so much for this time. This 552 00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:15,319 Speaker 1: has been a great conversation. Thank you so much. There's 553 00:34:15,320 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 1: a lot to take away from my conversation with Stacy, 554 00:34:18,719 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 1: but a couple of things are really sticking with me. 555 00:34:21,719 --> 00:34:24,560 Speaker 1: The first is that it's not on us to be 556 00:34:24,560 --> 00:34:27,960 Speaker 1: better consumers. It's on us to be better citizens. The 557 00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:32,120 Speaker 1: other is that, uh, efficiency isn't everything. I think we 558 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:35,319 Speaker 1: don't talk about this piece of the puzzle a lot. 559 00:34:35,960 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 1: We have this obsession with growth and speed in the 560 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,520 Speaker 1: US and how we think about our economy, more money, 561 00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:48,400 Speaker 1: as fast as possible, and nothing else seems to matter. 562 00:34:49,320 --> 00:34:51,400 Speaker 1: But that's not true. And a lot of parts of 563 00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:54,960 Speaker 1: our lives where we value something, it's not just more 564 00:34:55,000 --> 00:34:58,880 Speaker 1: and faster. Doesn't work that way. For slow walk on 565 00:34:58,920 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 1: the beach doesn't or shouldn't work that way. In our 566 00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:08,960 Speaker 1: romantic relationships, doesn't work that way. Just enjoying something, we 567 00:35:09,040 --> 00:35:12,920 Speaker 1: want it to last, and we want the relationships that 568 00:35:12,960 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: our economy powers to last. We want those small businesses 569 00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,560 Speaker 1: to last because they create character in our neighborhood that 570 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:26,640 Speaker 1: a big pile of money can't replace. It's very easy 571 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:29,400 Speaker 1: for us to talk about the economy as these numbers, 572 00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:36,400 Speaker 1: these economic indicators, GDP, stock market prices. But underneath of 573 00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:41,080 Speaker 1: all that jargon and those numbers are people, and people 574 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:44,839 Speaker 1: are more than efficiency engines. The large part of our 575 00:35:44,880 --> 00:35:48,960 Speaker 1: business and my day to day was literally okay, I 576 00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: have to batch cocktails, put them in containers. How do 577 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,840 Speaker 1: I put a label on sanitizer and is this legal? Okay, 578 00:35:55,880 --> 00:35:57,680 Speaker 1: we're we're just going to do it because no one 579 00:35:57,719 --> 00:36:04,240 Speaker 1: has sanitizer right now, and we can make it next week. 580 00:36:04,480 --> 00:36:07,600 Speaker 1: Small business owner or re estrada shows us what's at 581 00:36:07,600 --> 00:36:18,560 Speaker 1: stake and what's possible, because we see the word citizen 582 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:22,920 Speaker 1: as a verb that involves doing things. So here's our producer, 583 00:36:23,000 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 1: Stephanie with some things you can do. Think about why 584 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:30,600 Speaker 1: you shop at Amazon. Is that the convenience the prices 585 00:36:30,800 --> 00:36:32,759 Speaker 1: is because of the pandemic, or because you don't have 586 00:36:32,800 --> 00:36:36,720 Speaker 1: many other options. Consider alternatives if you have the means, 587 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: Challenge yourself to find one item that you usually purchase 588 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:45,319 Speaker 1: on Amazon, now commit to buying it locally. Next, do 589 00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:50,000 Speaker 1: some reading. In fall, the House Subcommittee on Antitrust, Commercial 590 00:36:50,040 --> 00:36:55,279 Speaker 1: and Administrative Law at least an investigation into monopolies like Amazon, Facebook, 591 00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:59,800 Speaker 1: and Google. The report is fifty pages long, but lucky 592 00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:02,800 Speaker 1: for us, the Institute for Local Self Reliance did all 593 00:37:02,880 --> 00:37:05,200 Speaker 1: the reading for us and put together a summary of 594 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:09,279 Speaker 1: the report titled The People Versus Amazon. We'll be sure 595 00:37:09,320 --> 00:37:11,520 Speaker 1: to link to it in the show notes. If you 596 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:14,120 Speaker 1: do read the whole thing, then pat yourself on the 597 00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:19,040 Speaker 1: back and finally join the fight against monopoly power. Check 598 00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:23,880 Speaker 1: out I L s R dot org slash Fighting Dash 599 00:37:23,960 --> 00:37:27,600 Speaker 1: Monopoly dash Power to learn ways you can join the 600 00:37:27,600 --> 00:37:31,880 Speaker 1: fight locally and nationally. If you're a small business owner 601 00:37:32,000 --> 00:37:36,920 Speaker 1: or entrepreneur, consider joining Small Business Rising, a coalition of 602 00:37:37,000 --> 00:37:41,160 Speaker 1: independent businesses that are banning together to urge policymakers to 603 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:45,520 Speaker 1: take on Amazon. If you take any of these actions, 604 00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,840 Speaker 1: please brag about yourself online using the hashtag how to 605 00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,719 Speaker 1: Citizen and send us general feedback or ideas for the 606 00:37:52,719 --> 00:37:56,160 Speaker 1: show two comments at how to citizen dot com. Visit 607 00:37:56,200 --> 00:37:59,280 Speaker 1: how to citizen dot com to sign up for our newsletter, 608 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,320 Speaker 1: will learn about upcoming events, and if you like the show, 609 00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:06,000 Speaker 1: spread the word. How does Citizen with barretton Day is 610 00:38:06,000 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 1: a production of I Heart Radio Podcasts and Dust Like Productions. 611 00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:14,160 Speaker 1: Our executive producers are Me barretton Day, Thurston, Elizabeth Stewart, 612 00:38:14,360 --> 00:38:18,600 Speaker 1: and Misha Yusuf. Our producers are Stephanie Cone and Ali Kilts. 613 00:38:19,160 --> 00:38:22,920 Speaker 1: Kelly Prime is our editor, Valentino Rivera is our engineer, 614 00:38:23,440 --> 00:38:27,680 Speaker 1: and Sam Paulson is our apprentice. Original music by Andrew Eapen. 615 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,800 Speaker 1: This episode was produced and sound designed by Stephanie Cone. 616 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,800 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Joel Smith from my Heart Radio. Big 617 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:40,560 Speaker 1: thank you to our community voices from Elizabeth Silver, Kim Swan, 618 00:38:41,160 --> 00:38:44,480 Speaker 1: Mike Freya, I hope I'm saying it right, Mike and 619 00:38:44,600 --> 00:39:00,360 Speaker 1: Michael Cartwright. We appreciate your voices literally yea y