1 00:00:15,604 --> 00:00:28,524 Speaker 1: Pushkin. Welcome back to Risky Business, a show about making 2 00:00:28,564 --> 00:00:31,244 Speaker 1: better decisions. I'm Maria Kanakova. 3 00:00:30,844 --> 00:00:33,604 Speaker 2: And I'm Nate Selver. Today on the show, we'll be 4 00:00:33,604 --> 00:00:37,444 Speaker 2: talking a little bit of China. China, China, how should 5 00:00:37,444 --> 00:00:40,444 Speaker 2: the second biggest economy in the world respond as the 6 00:00:40,524 --> 00:00:43,204 Speaker 2: US becomes increasingly geopolitically unstable? 7 00:00:43,644 --> 00:00:47,284 Speaker 1: And after that we will be pivoting to poker and 8 00:00:47,524 --> 00:00:51,484 Speaker 1: a controversy that happened last week about an incorrect hand 9 00:00:51,684 --> 00:00:54,524 Speaker 1: winning a pot in a very, very big spot. What 10 00:00:54,604 --> 00:00:58,044 Speaker 1: should players and others responsibility be in a situation like that? 11 00:00:58,484 --> 00:01:01,324 Speaker 2: Speak up players if the dealer focus up anyway. We'll 12 00:01:01,364 --> 00:01:03,484 Speaker 2: get into that in the second second. 13 00:01:04,084 --> 00:01:16,124 Speaker 1: Somebody has opinions. Yeah, let's talk about China. We are 14 00:01:16,204 --> 00:01:21,124 Speaker 1: taping this on Monday, March tenth. China has just announced 15 00:01:21,124 --> 00:01:25,844 Speaker 1: retaliatory tariffs on the United States taking effect immediately, but 16 00:01:25,924 --> 00:01:28,644 Speaker 1: they will not be affecting goods that arrive in the 17 00:01:28,644 --> 00:01:32,124 Speaker 1: country before April twelfth, Nate, Every single time we tape, 18 00:01:32,164 --> 00:01:34,124 Speaker 1: there seems to be more and more news coming out, 19 00:01:34,204 --> 00:01:38,364 Speaker 1: but all of it points to one reality, which is 20 00:01:38,404 --> 00:01:41,804 Speaker 1: that the US is just trying to take a step 21 00:01:41,884 --> 00:01:46,804 Speaker 1: back from its role in global politics, or rather in 22 00:01:46,924 --> 00:01:49,244 Speaker 1: its role in building alliances and trying to be a 23 00:01:49,284 --> 00:01:53,004 Speaker 1: diplomatic force for the good, creating somewhat of a power vacuum. 24 00:01:53,444 --> 00:01:58,124 Speaker 1: And China as the world's second largest economy, there are 25 00:01:58,164 --> 00:02:01,684 Speaker 1: some opportunities here. There's a lot going on between the 26 00:02:01,844 --> 00:02:04,244 Speaker 1: US and China. I think it would be really interesting 27 00:02:04,284 --> 00:02:06,684 Speaker 1: to try to, you know, flip the game theory. Last 28 00:02:06,724 --> 00:02:09,364 Speaker 1: week I talked about game theory from the US perspective. 29 00:02:09,764 --> 00:02:12,764 Speaker 1: Let's talk about it from the Chinese perspective and see 30 00:02:12,764 --> 00:02:15,644 Speaker 1: what this moment in time means for how China should 31 00:02:15,644 --> 00:02:19,084 Speaker 1: be thinking about its future and constructing its economic and 32 00:02:19,164 --> 00:02:21,284 Speaker 1: foreign policies. What do we think about this? 33 00:02:22,244 --> 00:02:26,484 Speaker 2: Uh, China's a real country either not this cute little 34 00:02:27,244 --> 00:02:30,764 Speaker 2: puppy like Canada or something like that. They are the 35 00:02:30,764 --> 00:02:34,604 Speaker 2: second largest economy in the world, the second largest you know, 36 00:02:35,044 --> 00:02:38,684 Speaker 2: effectively military power in the world. They can do a 37 00:02:38,684 --> 00:02:42,084 Speaker 2: lot of things to contradict the United States interest if 38 00:02:42,084 --> 00:02:44,244 Speaker 2: we're in a zero some game when AI and other stuff, 39 00:02:44,284 --> 00:02:47,004 Speaker 2: and like, it's a moment for she to think big 40 00:02:47,124 --> 00:02:50,764 Speaker 2: and to think long term. And you know, because these 41 00:02:50,764 --> 00:02:54,364 Speaker 2: things that Trump is doing, we'll take a long time 42 00:02:54,404 --> 00:02:58,884 Speaker 2: to undo right, if Trump quit tomorrow and went back 43 00:02:58,924 --> 00:03:00,924 Speaker 2: to Marrow Lago and Jade Vance takes over, then a 44 00:03:00,924 --> 00:03:04,204 Speaker 2: Democrat wins I don't know, fucking Gavin Newsom or some 45 00:03:04,244 --> 00:03:07,964 Speaker 2: shit like that, Right, a Democrat wins in four years. 46 00:03:08,604 --> 00:03:11,924 Speaker 2: Even this six weeks, right, these two months now almost 47 00:03:12,444 --> 00:03:14,484 Speaker 2: still would damage America's credibility, I. 48 00:03:14,404 --> 00:03:17,844 Speaker 1: Think absolutely absolutely, And I think that's really important to remember. 49 00:03:18,124 --> 00:03:20,604 Speaker 1: It's much faster to break things than it is to 50 00:03:20,604 --> 00:03:23,044 Speaker 1: build them back up. They're also doing more. China has 51 00:03:23,084 --> 00:03:24,764 Speaker 1: a lot of levers that it can push that it's 52 00:03:24,804 --> 00:03:30,084 Speaker 1: not just tariffs. They're also blocking fifteen US companies from 53 00:03:30,164 --> 00:03:33,004 Speaker 1: buying Chinese products, and they're just saying, you know, you 54 00:03:33,044 --> 00:03:35,164 Speaker 1: want to play with us, we'll play with you. And 55 00:03:35,324 --> 00:03:38,004 Speaker 1: what you have to understand about China is it can actually, 56 00:03:38,044 --> 00:03:40,764 Speaker 1: like very strategically, can do like you know, it can 57 00:03:40,804 --> 00:03:43,804 Speaker 1: do whatever the fuck it wants basically. So what they're 58 00:03:43,804 --> 00:03:47,644 Speaker 1: doing is they're trying to mitigate the effects of some 59 00:03:47,684 --> 00:03:51,284 Speaker 1: tariffs by saying, oh, okay, fine, the US post tariffs 60 00:03:51,284 --> 00:03:53,644 Speaker 1: on you. Great, We're going to reduce your taxes. 61 00:03:53,844 --> 00:03:53,964 Speaker 2: Right. 62 00:03:54,004 --> 00:03:56,684 Speaker 1: It can like just very surgically say okay, this company 63 00:03:56,724 --> 00:03:59,004 Speaker 1: that's now being you know, subject to tariffs in the 64 00:03:59,084 --> 00:04:01,844 Speaker 1: US has to pay fewer taxes than it did before, 65 00:04:01,924 --> 00:04:04,324 Speaker 1: so that they can keep their prices the same. Right, 66 00:04:04,364 --> 00:04:07,324 Speaker 1: it can push all of these buttons because it really 67 00:04:07,364 --> 00:04:10,964 Speaker 1: can have this very directed approach to the economy that 68 00:04:11,164 --> 00:04:13,844 Speaker 1: even with the executive orders and even with Trump trying 69 00:04:13,844 --> 00:04:17,444 Speaker 1: to act more autocratically and bypassed Congress, we can't do 70 00:04:17,524 --> 00:04:19,484 Speaker 1: that in the US, right, we don't have that sort 71 00:04:19,484 --> 00:04:23,164 Speaker 1: of centralized power, and so that is actually something that 72 00:04:23,484 --> 00:04:25,684 Speaker 1: when you're talking about game theory, who has you know, 73 00:04:25,804 --> 00:04:28,964 Speaker 1: who has more muscle, who can push whom around. China 74 00:04:29,044 --> 00:04:31,684 Speaker 1: can really do things that we cannot do in the 75 00:04:31,764 --> 00:04:32,764 Speaker 1: United States. 76 00:04:33,524 --> 00:04:35,684 Speaker 2: Yeah, and again, in terms of a share of the economy, 77 00:04:35,724 --> 00:04:38,724 Speaker 2: we went over this last time with Canada and Mexico. 78 00:04:38,924 --> 00:04:42,284 Speaker 2: No one country is that large a share of the 79 00:04:42,324 --> 00:04:43,764 Speaker 2: US economy because we make a lot of our own 80 00:04:43,804 --> 00:04:50,764 Speaker 2: stuff and our imports are diversified. So basically, China, Mexico, Canada, 81 00:04:50,804 --> 00:04:53,684 Speaker 2: and the EU are between the EU as one country 82 00:04:53,924 --> 00:04:57,564 Speaker 2: are the four largest exporters to the US and they're 83 00:04:57,564 --> 00:05:00,684 Speaker 2: all about equal about five hundred billion dollars per year. 84 00:05:02,124 --> 00:05:07,364 Speaker 2: But China has a lot of geopolitical influence, you know, 85 00:05:07,444 --> 00:05:10,164 Speaker 2: the kind of smart form policy types to have perpetually 86 00:05:10,244 --> 00:05:12,884 Speaker 2: been worried about China potentially invading Taiwan. They also have 87 00:05:12,924 --> 00:05:16,764 Speaker 2: a lot of influence over over Ai policy. The US 88 00:05:16,804 --> 00:05:21,084 Speaker 2: is concerned about a potential race with China on Ai. 89 00:05:22,004 --> 00:05:24,924 Speaker 2: But yeah, one thing we're trying to do is prevent China, 90 00:05:25,044 --> 00:05:28,444 Speaker 2: in various ways from getting access to the most powerful 91 00:05:28,844 --> 00:05:32,004 Speaker 2: semiconductor chips right a lot of which are produced ironically 92 00:05:32,084 --> 00:05:39,204 Speaker 2: in Taiwan, And so there are profound geopolitical implications, and 93 00:05:39,444 --> 00:05:41,084 Speaker 2: China can create a lot more problems to the United 94 00:05:41,124 --> 00:05:43,444 Speaker 2: States in terms of global alliances and things like that too, 95 00:05:43,524 --> 00:05:46,164 Speaker 2: especially if, like if Europe is now like like, who 96 00:05:46,244 --> 00:05:48,804 Speaker 2: are friends now? Maria? Who still likes us? 97 00:05:49,284 --> 00:05:52,204 Speaker 1: Who likes Russia? Russia? Russia likes US. 98 00:05:52,524 --> 00:05:55,244 Speaker 2: I don't want Russia to like US. I don't want it. 99 00:05:55,324 --> 00:05:58,164 Speaker 1: There's a difference between what you want and what's happening. 100 00:05:58,204 --> 00:06:00,364 Speaker 1: So who are friends right now? Russia likes US? I 101 00:06:00,364 --> 00:06:02,724 Speaker 1: think North Korea is probably pretty happy with the way 102 00:06:02,804 --> 00:06:03,644 Speaker 1: things are going. 103 00:06:04,244 --> 00:06:07,964 Speaker 2: Japan. We've left Japan alone, haven't we? I mean India, India, 104 00:06:07,964 --> 00:06:08,644 Speaker 2: we seem. 105 00:06:08,484 --> 00:06:13,084 Speaker 1: To leave for now, for now, for now, But we'll 106 00:06:13,124 --> 00:06:15,924 Speaker 1: see what happens. Right Seriously, though we don't have many 107 00:06:15,924 --> 00:06:20,524 Speaker 1: allies left. Europe is really up in arms, literally trying 108 00:06:20,524 --> 00:06:23,324 Speaker 1: to be up in arms and rearm and you know, 109 00:06:23,444 --> 00:06:26,964 Speaker 1: trying to figure that out. China is very not happy 110 00:06:27,044 --> 00:06:31,004 Speaker 1: and is trying to show that you know what, fuck 111 00:06:31,084 --> 00:06:33,964 Speaker 1: you, you cannot push us around, and we really can't push 112 00:06:34,004 --> 00:06:37,004 Speaker 1: China around, by the way, Like this is an incredibly 113 00:06:37,284 --> 00:06:41,684 Speaker 1: powerful economy, it's an incredibly powerful diplomatic force, you know, 114 00:06:41,724 --> 00:06:44,564 Speaker 1: if you're thinking about not just the economic stuff, right, 115 00:06:44,804 --> 00:06:47,484 Speaker 1: but the type of precedent that the US is setting 116 00:06:47,524 --> 00:06:51,284 Speaker 1: by cozying enough to Putin and saying, oh, potentially, like 117 00:06:51,964 --> 00:06:54,164 Speaker 1: let's allow Putin to take parts of Ukraine. Like we 118 00:06:54,164 --> 00:06:56,124 Speaker 1: don't know what's going to happen with that right now, 119 00:06:56,164 --> 00:07:00,884 Speaker 1: but that sort of precedent may actually embolden China to 120 00:07:01,684 --> 00:07:04,204 Speaker 1: try something with Taiwan in a way that it hasn't 121 00:07:05,044 --> 00:07:07,444 Speaker 1: in the past because it's been i think restrained by 122 00:07:07,484 --> 00:07:11,244 Speaker 1: some international norms. Those norms might be eroding, so we 123 00:07:11,324 --> 00:07:15,604 Speaker 1: can potentially see kind of more aggression there, and that 124 00:07:15,604 --> 00:07:17,764 Speaker 1: that's also not a happy place for us to be in. 125 00:07:17,844 --> 00:07:21,484 Speaker 1: Right when when we see that potential I don't know, right, 126 00:07:21,524 --> 00:07:23,844 Speaker 1: I don't There's a lot of uncertainty around this, but 127 00:07:23,884 --> 00:07:28,484 Speaker 1: I think that if international norms of behavior are being eroded, 128 00:07:28,524 --> 00:07:31,724 Speaker 1: then that can be frightening for a lot of countries 129 00:07:32,004 --> 00:07:35,604 Speaker 1: in Asia. Right. If you think that, oh, okay, this 130 00:07:35,724 --> 00:07:38,244 Speaker 1: balance of power is no longer going to be held 131 00:07:38,284 --> 00:07:42,044 Speaker 1: in check, then if I you know, if I were 132 00:07:42,124 --> 00:07:44,644 Speaker 1: living anywhere there, I'd be a little nervous. 133 00:07:44,884 --> 00:07:47,364 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, you know, foreign policy did not change 134 00:07:47,564 --> 00:07:56,444 Speaker 2: that much from Bush to Obama to Trump one to Biden. Right, 135 00:07:56,484 --> 00:07:58,684 Speaker 2: And so the United States has lots of problems. That 136 00:07:58,764 --> 00:08:02,684 Speaker 2: starts stupid borers, right, it has someone economic crises that 137 00:08:02,724 --> 00:08:04,604 Speaker 2: it then spreads the rest of the world. But like 138 00:08:05,084 --> 00:08:07,604 Speaker 2: you know, there is more of a consensus on foreign 139 00:08:07,684 --> 00:08:12,564 Speaker 2: policy then on economic policy or social policy or whatever else. Right, 140 00:08:12,644 --> 00:08:15,284 Speaker 2: And like you know, it's not even like Trump necessarily 141 00:08:15,324 --> 00:08:21,204 Speaker 2: has like a coherent foreign policy vision exactly. It's kind 142 00:08:21,204 --> 00:08:23,804 Speaker 2: of very zero sum mentality. We talked about that before, Right, 143 00:08:23,844 --> 00:08:28,564 Speaker 2: It's it leans toward isolationism. And look, you'll hear plenty 144 00:08:28,564 --> 00:08:30,484 Speaker 2: of critiques of Trump on this show. I would rather 145 00:08:30,524 --> 00:08:33,644 Speaker 2: have Trump err on the side of isolations and than 146 00:08:33,684 --> 00:08:36,564 Speaker 2: war mongering. If those are the two choices. But like, 147 00:08:36,724 --> 00:08:38,484 Speaker 2: but you know, when states don't play an active role 148 00:08:38,484 --> 00:08:41,764 Speaker 2: in the world, then you know there are power vacuums 149 00:08:41,804 --> 00:08:45,844 Speaker 2: that potentially can can get filled. Right And by the way, 150 00:08:45,884 --> 00:08:49,764 Speaker 2: I don't think Biden was particularly effective on China or 151 00:08:49,764 --> 00:08:53,084 Speaker 2: really anything in foreign policy either. Frankly, you know, Trump 152 00:08:53,164 --> 00:08:56,284 Speaker 2: at least at least has a little bit of the 153 00:08:56,444 --> 00:08:59,844 Speaker 2: kind of rogue state factor where you don't know what 154 00:08:59,884 --> 00:09:03,844 Speaker 2: the United States would do necessarily. But but yeah, I mean, look, 155 00:09:03,884 --> 00:09:09,524 Speaker 2: the stereotype of China is that they're pretty good I 156 00:09:09,524 --> 00:09:13,404 Speaker 2: don't know, tacticians, like maybe the global strategy, but like, 157 00:09:13,444 --> 00:09:17,364 Speaker 2: but you know they are going to understand if both 158 00:09:17,404 --> 00:09:20,684 Speaker 2: to secure their own future, you know, or to kind 159 00:09:20,684 --> 00:09:24,284 Speaker 2: of you know, punch at the United States in a 160 00:09:24,324 --> 00:09:28,964 Speaker 2: way to slow us down in the AI race too, right, 161 00:09:29,044 --> 00:09:31,964 Speaker 2: I mean that's you know, maybe the most high stakes 162 00:09:32,044 --> 00:09:33,084 Speaker 2: question right now in the world. 163 00:09:33,324 --> 00:09:36,564 Speaker 1: Oh. Absolutely, I mean I think that they're very tactically savvy. 164 00:09:36,764 --> 00:09:39,524 Speaker 1: And it was interesting. I was having a conversation the 165 00:09:39,564 --> 00:09:43,724 Speaker 1: other week kind of about some of the downstream effects 166 00:09:43,764 --> 00:09:46,324 Speaker 1: of the Trump policies, and right now, you know, we're 167 00:09:46,364 --> 00:09:49,884 Speaker 1: seeing absolute chaos, you know, with the NIH and the 168 00:09:49,884 --> 00:09:53,524 Speaker 1: science funding. A lot of institutions, including places like you Penn, 169 00:09:53,684 --> 00:09:57,684 Speaker 1: are resending offers to grad students in the sciences because 170 00:09:57,684 --> 00:09:59,604 Speaker 1: they're like, oh, we can't, we can't afford you anymore. 171 00:09:59,724 --> 00:10:01,844 Speaker 1: It's really bad, right, And if you think about what 172 00:10:01,884 --> 00:10:04,964 Speaker 1: that means for the future of kind of science, technology, 173 00:10:05,244 --> 00:10:09,324 Speaker 1: scientific development in the US, there's a potential for brain drain, 174 00:10:09,404 --> 00:10:10,884 Speaker 1: and people like, well, where are people going to go? 175 00:10:10,924 --> 00:10:13,844 Speaker 1: Who's funding it? Like, well, this is pretty funny, because 176 00:10:13,924 --> 00:10:16,484 Speaker 1: I think this is a great strategic opportunity for China 177 00:10:16,524 --> 00:10:19,324 Speaker 1: to be like me, right, we'll fund it. You come 178 00:10:19,364 --> 00:10:21,284 Speaker 1: here and you can have a lot of money and 179 00:10:21,324 --> 00:10:24,204 Speaker 1: you can do your research here. And I actually think 180 00:10:24,204 --> 00:10:26,444 Speaker 1: that some people might take them up on it. And 181 00:10:26,764 --> 00:10:29,404 Speaker 1: that would be pretty terrifying, right if we have a 182 00:10:29,404 --> 00:10:32,604 Speaker 1: brain drain from the US to China, And that might 183 00:10:32,684 --> 00:10:35,404 Speaker 1: happen if you cannot get your research funded, if you 184 00:10:35,524 --> 00:10:39,084 Speaker 1: cannot do work here and someone else And I say 185 00:10:39,084 --> 00:10:40,684 Speaker 1: that they might take them up on it, because I 186 00:10:40,724 --> 00:10:43,364 Speaker 1: know people who have gone, you know, to work in 187 00:10:43,404 --> 00:10:45,484 Speaker 1: the UAE, who have gone to work in a lot 188 00:10:45,524 --> 00:10:49,244 Speaker 1: of places that, like you would think they would not 189 00:10:49,324 --> 00:10:52,404 Speaker 1: want to work in because of their ideas about freedom, 190 00:10:52,444 --> 00:10:54,244 Speaker 1: et cetera, et cetera. But they do it because they're 191 00:10:54,284 --> 00:10:56,844 Speaker 1: offered a lot of money, right, and money speaks and 192 00:10:56,924 --> 00:11:00,884 Speaker 1: incentive speak. And I think that China is very tactically 193 00:11:00,924 --> 00:11:05,644 Speaker 1: good on all levels of figuring out where the opportunities are, 194 00:11:06,284 --> 00:11:08,724 Speaker 1: where the potential kind of where the potential to get 195 00:11:08,724 --> 00:11:12,404 Speaker 1: ahead is, and so that you know, I would not 196 00:11:12,484 --> 00:11:14,964 Speaker 1: be surprised to see some people, you know, some some 197 00:11:15,204 --> 00:11:19,964 Speaker 1: brain drain potentially happening that way. And that's an interesting 198 00:11:20,604 --> 00:11:22,764 Speaker 1: thing to consider when we look at you know, ten 199 00:11:22,804 --> 00:11:25,404 Speaker 1: years out, twenty years out, technology and science. 200 00:11:25,844 --> 00:11:30,804 Speaker 2: If I were she, I would make Hong Kong, which 201 00:11:30,844 --> 00:11:35,444 Speaker 2: is controlled because Hong Kong is one city, right, I 202 00:11:35,444 --> 00:11:42,364 Speaker 2: would make that the most welcoming front imaginable to the west. Right, yep, 203 00:11:42,444 --> 00:11:45,164 Speaker 2: Like it's an image play that's very smart, yeah, for 204 00:11:45,284 --> 00:11:47,524 Speaker 2: like for right now, China doesn't have the image of 205 00:11:48,844 --> 00:11:53,684 Speaker 2: luxury that other Asian cultures sometimes do. But this can change, 206 00:11:53,724 --> 00:11:57,324 Speaker 2: you know, yeah, and it can change quickly. Korean goods 207 00:11:57,324 --> 00:12:02,164 Speaker 2: have become prestigious, right, Obviously, Japanese is a very high 208 00:12:02,204 --> 00:12:05,204 Speaker 2: prestige country. But you know, but those are countries that 209 00:12:05,244 --> 00:12:06,964 Speaker 2: are democracy used and that have been nocratus for a 210 00:12:07,004 --> 00:12:09,404 Speaker 2: long time and like you know, have like a flurish 211 00:12:09,404 --> 00:12:13,964 Speaker 2: wishing artistic center, right, Like I don't you know people 212 00:12:14,044 --> 00:12:16,884 Speaker 2: thought that China would democratize as it became richer, and 213 00:12:17,044 --> 00:12:18,764 Speaker 2: like it kind of is that exactly? 214 00:12:19,364 --> 00:12:22,444 Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a really interesting thing to think about. 215 00:12:22,724 --> 00:12:25,764 Speaker 1: What can what can China do to make itself look 216 00:12:25,884 --> 00:12:30,444 Speaker 1: more appealing to Americans right to people who want to 217 00:12:30,484 --> 00:12:33,724 Speaker 1: flee And I think that that is something that they 218 00:12:34,004 --> 00:12:37,764 Speaker 1: are potentially not thinking through as deeply as they should, 219 00:12:38,044 --> 00:12:41,564 Speaker 1: because to me, like great game theoretic move right would 220 00:12:41,604 --> 00:12:44,404 Speaker 1: be okay, yes, you know, we're sorry. Like free speech, 221 00:12:44,444 --> 00:12:47,844 Speaker 1: all this great stuff, like we will embrace it. You know, 222 00:12:48,324 --> 00:12:51,364 Speaker 1: Donald Trump says, you can't say these words. You can 223 00:12:51,404 --> 00:12:54,324 Speaker 1: say anything here right, Come to Hong Kong. We will 224 00:12:54,324 --> 00:12:56,604 Speaker 1: give you money, We will give you pretty things. It 225 00:12:56,644 --> 00:12:59,924 Speaker 1: will be nice. And Hong Kong used to be a place, 226 00:13:00,164 --> 00:13:03,044 Speaker 1: you know that was incredibly welcoming before all of the 227 00:13:03,524 --> 00:13:07,284 Speaker 1: you know, before there were the crackdowns on free speech 228 00:13:07,404 --> 00:13:10,564 Speaker 1: and everything that has happened. And in the last five 229 00:13:10,644 --> 00:13:13,644 Speaker 1: or so years, Hong Kong was kind of a mecca 230 00:13:13,724 --> 00:13:16,124 Speaker 1: for a lot of Western a lot of Westerners, right 231 00:13:16,484 --> 00:13:18,564 Speaker 1: they they went there and they're like, oh, this isn't China, 232 00:13:18,644 --> 00:13:21,324 Speaker 1: this is different. I think that doubling down on that 233 00:13:21,364 --> 00:13:25,124 Speaker 1: would actually be huge and would potentially give China an 234 00:13:25,244 --> 00:13:27,604 Speaker 1: edge in a lot of different things because you see 235 00:13:27,604 --> 00:13:31,844 Speaker 1: that they actually can like Australia right imports. I don't 236 00:13:31,884 --> 00:13:35,564 Speaker 1: know how many Chinese evs right like, there are there 237 00:13:35,604 --> 00:13:39,324 Speaker 1: are markets where China is actually kind of flourishing in 238 00:13:39,364 --> 00:13:43,364 Speaker 1: different countries because they have technology that they're able to 239 00:13:43,484 --> 00:13:45,924 Speaker 1: kind of develop. And I think that if they double 240 00:13:46,004 --> 00:13:49,324 Speaker 1: down on a lot of these things, we can we 241 00:13:49,404 --> 00:13:52,844 Speaker 1: can see kind of a big change in their geopolitical 242 00:13:52,884 --> 00:13:55,604 Speaker 1: standing and in the way they're perceived in the world, 243 00:13:56,444 --> 00:13:59,804 Speaker 1: which which I think could be a very tactically sound 244 00:13:59,924 --> 00:14:03,684 Speaker 1: play for them. And we see and kind of the 245 00:14:03,724 --> 00:14:06,364 Speaker 1: ev The reason I mentioned the evs is because with 246 00:14:06,804 --> 00:14:09,204 Speaker 1: you know, tariffs et cetera, et cetera, Like that's actually 247 00:14:09,564 --> 00:14:12,444 Speaker 1: something that along with AI is a place where they 248 00:14:12,484 --> 00:14:15,524 Speaker 1: can start developing a strategic edge right now because there 249 00:14:15,604 --> 00:14:19,044 Speaker 1: is kind of this opening that hasn't existed in the past. 250 00:14:19,324 --> 00:14:23,164 Speaker 2: Yeah, but of course, you know, every auto manufacturer, Eleast 251 00:14:23,244 --> 00:14:27,724 Speaker 2: American ones have like global supply chains, right, So, but yeah, 252 00:14:27,724 --> 00:14:29,764 Speaker 2: I mean, look, I have friends who are like literally 253 00:14:31,564 --> 00:14:34,724 Speaker 2: trying to figure out how to make bets on Chinese 254 00:14:34,764 --> 00:14:40,404 Speaker 2: made evs gaining market share relative to Tesla. You know, 255 00:14:40,564 --> 00:14:44,244 Speaker 2: that's you know, the stakes are pretty obvious with China. 256 00:14:44,284 --> 00:14:47,924 Speaker 1: Absolutely, yeah, you know, there's a way forward there where 257 00:14:47,924 --> 00:14:50,484 Speaker 1: they can actually make their image much more positive for 258 00:14:50,524 --> 00:14:52,684 Speaker 1: the Western mind than it is right now. And I 259 00:14:52,724 --> 00:14:56,404 Speaker 1: think that they should really try to be exploring that 260 00:14:56,444 --> 00:14:59,644 Speaker 1: strategically because there is a vacuum and the US right 261 00:14:59,644 --> 00:15:01,844 Speaker 1: now is not looking good, right the strong man politics 262 00:15:01,884 --> 00:15:03,764 Speaker 1: are not looking good. That's a great moment for she 263 00:15:03,884 --> 00:15:06,324 Speaker 1: to be like, hey, we're not the strong man, We're 264 00:15:06,364 --> 00:15:09,004 Speaker 1: not the bad guys. Look at us, like we can 265 00:15:09,004 --> 00:15:11,964 Speaker 1: actually be much nicer than what's happening in the United 266 00:15:12,004 --> 00:15:14,324 Speaker 1: States and we will not betray our allies or whatever 267 00:15:14,364 --> 00:15:16,644 Speaker 1: it is. So I think that there's a lot of 268 00:15:16,724 --> 00:15:19,004 Speaker 1: moves that can happen right now that will not end 269 00:15:19,044 --> 00:15:20,964 Speaker 1: well for the US now. 270 00:15:21,084 --> 00:15:24,724 Speaker 2: The contrast to the Middle East is interesting, is like 271 00:15:24,764 --> 00:15:28,604 Speaker 2: the marketing strategy right in the sense that like, you know, 272 00:15:28,644 --> 00:15:33,804 Speaker 2: the Middle East turned countries will like sponsor huge soccer 273 00:15:34,404 --> 00:15:37,604 Speaker 2: teams and things like that, right, and they'll and they'll 274 00:15:37,644 --> 00:15:41,044 Speaker 2: have this marketing campaign more, Hey, come to Saudi Arabia 275 00:15:41,124 --> 00:15:44,364 Speaker 2: and in the pictures we show you in the ads, right, 276 00:15:44,764 --> 00:15:49,324 Speaker 2: it looks very progressive, and you know, and they'll bribe allegedly, 277 00:15:50,284 --> 00:15:55,004 Speaker 2: bribe FIFA to host World Cups allegedly and things like that. Right. 278 00:15:56,204 --> 00:16:00,084 Speaker 2: But it's a marketing strategy to paint a friendlier phase, right, 279 00:16:00,684 --> 00:16:04,244 Speaker 2: and it probably is probably has worked on some level. 280 00:16:04,244 --> 00:16:06,364 Speaker 2: I'm not looking at like what American perceptions are of 281 00:16:06,764 --> 00:16:11,364 Speaker 2: the wealthier you know, Gulf state, Saudi Arabia, cutar, et cetera. 282 00:16:11,964 --> 00:16:14,204 Speaker 2: I said kutar in one of the ways that you're 283 00:16:14,244 --> 00:16:15,604 Speaker 2: not supposed to say it. There's like five ways you 284 00:16:15,604 --> 00:16:16,924 Speaker 2: can say and I just kind of made up my 285 00:16:17,004 --> 00:16:22,164 Speaker 2: own pronunciation there, cut the guitar anyway. 286 00:16:22,244 --> 00:16:24,724 Speaker 1: Yeah, that's I Actually, I think that that's a really 287 00:16:24,844 --> 00:16:30,164 Speaker 1: that's a good analogy in the sense that foreign image 288 00:16:30,364 --> 00:16:35,044 Speaker 1: laundering is something that countries have done many times over 289 00:16:35,084 --> 00:16:38,764 Speaker 1: the years and sometimes successfully. And I think that and 290 00:16:38,804 --> 00:16:42,924 Speaker 1: it's always a huge, huge part of any diplomatic policy. 291 00:16:43,244 --> 00:16:45,444 Speaker 1: It's a huge part of you know, what the CIA does, 292 00:16:45,524 --> 00:16:49,244 Speaker 1: right to try to massage perceptions of the United States 293 00:16:49,244 --> 00:16:52,364 Speaker 1: and different countries. I think it happens all the time, 294 00:16:52,524 --> 00:16:55,084 Speaker 1: and yet when you see an opportunity like that, you 295 00:16:55,124 --> 00:16:57,684 Speaker 1: should take it. So I think the US should be worried. 296 00:16:58,004 --> 00:17:01,084 Speaker 1: It should try to be figuring out how to make 297 00:17:01,164 --> 00:17:04,844 Speaker 1: it so that you know so that these moves are 298 00:17:05,404 --> 00:17:08,484 Speaker 1: not going to happen. Right, how do you like, how 299 00:17:08,524 --> 00:17:10,404 Speaker 1: do you look ahead at the game theoretic board so 300 00:17:10,444 --> 00:17:13,324 Speaker 1: that you can actually counter these moves before they happen. 301 00:17:14,084 --> 00:17:17,284 Speaker 1: And that's not something that's happening right now, Nate. Let's 302 00:17:17,284 --> 00:17:21,124 Speaker 1: do a quick recap. So what are our key takeaways 303 00:17:21,164 --> 00:17:24,444 Speaker 1: from the current situation between the US and China and 304 00:17:24,524 --> 00:17:26,364 Speaker 1: kind of where the strategic choices lie. 305 00:17:26,724 --> 00:17:29,004 Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess a little bit. What we talked about 306 00:17:29,004 --> 00:17:33,644 Speaker 2: before is like the US is abdicating its position in 307 00:17:33,684 --> 00:17:39,084 Speaker 2: some ways as a global hedgemon. I'm using all these 308 00:17:39,124 --> 00:17:42,204 Speaker 2: terms I learned in debate team years ago. The term 309 00:17:42,244 --> 00:17:45,284 Speaker 2: that we'd use is soft power, right, where like the 310 00:17:45,364 --> 00:17:48,164 Speaker 2: United States is seeing as being the most stable economy 311 00:17:48,164 --> 00:17:52,804 Speaker 2: in the world, a force for stability and international order generally. 312 00:17:52,844 --> 00:17:54,924 Speaker 2: Of course it fucks up and makes some mistakes, right, 313 00:17:55,124 --> 00:17:58,444 Speaker 2: but an anchor of safety. And if the US no 314 00:17:58,524 --> 00:18:01,484 Speaker 2: longer that then, you know, can China play that role? 315 00:18:01,604 --> 00:18:05,764 Speaker 2: And I think that might actually entail having a friendlier face, 316 00:18:05,804 --> 00:18:09,044 Speaker 2: and China has sometimes a friendlier face to the West 317 00:18:09,444 --> 00:18:11,884 Speaker 2: in particular. I mean, Europe is looking around for hey, 318 00:18:11,924 --> 00:18:15,444 Speaker 2: who can we trust here anymore? Looking for trade partners potentially, 319 00:18:15,484 --> 00:18:18,604 Speaker 2: and so it's an interesting moment, right, I think their 320 00:18:18,604 --> 00:18:22,004 Speaker 2: response is not necessarily to like go not to get 321 00:18:22,084 --> 00:18:25,284 Speaker 2: drawn into Trump's zero some game, which isn't really a 322 00:18:25,364 --> 00:18:27,444 Speaker 2: zero some game. I mean, we want global cooperation on 323 00:18:27,524 --> 00:18:31,084 Speaker 2: all these things ultimately, right, you know, both China and 324 00:18:31,124 --> 00:18:34,164 Speaker 2: the US weirdly have like an interest in like making 325 00:18:34,164 --> 00:18:36,364 Speaker 2: sure that we're the only two AI superpowers, right, and 326 00:18:36,444 --> 00:18:38,644 Speaker 2: that somebody else, I mean, at least whatever else doesn't 327 00:18:38,684 --> 00:18:41,044 Speaker 2: kind of catch up. But yeah, it's it's a moment 328 00:18:41,084 --> 00:18:45,404 Speaker 2: for she to think big, you know, the US maybe 329 00:18:45,444 --> 00:18:48,484 Speaker 2: abdicating its role as kind of the leader of the 330 00:18:48,484 --> 00:18:50,284 Speaker 2: free world. Whether trying to count as a free world 331 00:18:50,404 --> 00:18:53,724 Speaker 2: or not is kind of an open question obviously, But like, 332 00:18:53,964 --> 00:18:57,684 Speaker 2: you know, you counter sometimes the player who is being 333 00:18:58,244 --> 00:19:02,844 Speaker 2: playing zero s in the non zero S game by 334 00:19:02,884 --> 00:19:07,644 Speaker 2: being the bigger, better, more mature player yourself, right, And 335 00:19:07,724 --> 00:19:10,684 Speaker 2: so maybe, you know, maybe we open up Hong Kong 336 00:19:10,724 --> 00:19:14,004 Speaker 2: more and don't invade Taiwan until you consolidate kind of 337 00:19:14,044 --> 00:19:17,724 Speaker 2: more power and more authority. I think. I think playing 338 00:19:17,724 --> 00:19:20,164 Speaker 2: a long game is always, always, almost always beneficial when 339 00:19:20,164 --> 00:19:21,284 Speaker 2: others are short sighted. 340 00:19:27,244 --> 00:19:29,244 Speaker 1: All right, let's uh, let's take a break night and 341 00:19:29,284 --> 00:19:30,524 Speaker 1: then talk some poker. 342 00:19:40,324 --> 00:19:40,524 Speaker 2: Nate. 343 00:19:40,604 --> 00:19:44,724 Speaker 1: Have you been on poker Twitter this past week where 344 00:19:44,764 --> 00:19:48,604 Speaker 1: there has been a lot of controversy, shall we say, 345 00:19:48,844 --> 00:19:52,324 Speaker 1: around one particular hand that happened at a circuit event. 346 00:19:52,764 --> 00:19:54,684 Speaker 1: Have you been privy to this or have you been 347 00:19:54,724 --> 00:19:56,844 Speaker 1: too busy at Sloan conference? 348 00:19:57,124 --> 00:19:59,244 Speaker 2: You know Twitter follows me. Oh, the Twitter was down 349 00:19:59,284 --> 00:20:02,844 Speaker 2: actually for parts of the day. Yeah, why don't you 350 00:20:02,884 --> 00:20:04,484 Speaker 2: introduce I have seen the hand in question. Do you 351 00:20:04,484 --> 00:20:05,684 Speaker 2: want to introduce this one though, Maria? 352 00:20:05,804 --> 00:20:09,124 Speaker 1: Yeah? Sure, Okay. So we are at a World Series 353 00:20:09,124 --> 00:20:13,484 Speaker 1: of PO circuit event, which is not the main World series, 354 00:20:13,484 --> 00:20:15,844 Speaker 1: but this is kind of the circuit gives out rings. 355 00:20:15,884 --> 00:20:19,204 Speaker 1: It's a big deal and it's down to the final table. 356 00:20:19,364 --> 00:20:22,364 Speaker 1: It's down to the final three players. One of those 357 00:20:22,404 --> 00:20:28,164 Speaker 1: players is Maurice Hawkins, who has at that point seventeen rings. 358 00:20:28,204 --> 00:20:30,524 Speaker 1: I want to say, if he wins this ring, he 359 00:20:30,684 --> 00:20:35,764 Speaker 1: will tie Ari Engele for the most rings in history 360 00:20:36,164 --> 00:20:38,964 Speaker 1: in the circuit at eighteen rings. By the way, Ari 361 00:20:39,164 --> 00:20:42,724 Speaker 1: just won another ring. Congratulations Ari, so Ari's now at nineteen, 362 00:20:43,004 --> 00:20:47,724 Speaker 1: but last week he didn't have that ring. And there's 363 00:20:47,764 --> 00:20:51,244 Speaker 1: a big hand where Maurice and another player are all 364 00:20:51,284 --> 00:20:57,404 Speaker 1: in and the dealer fans out the board and MUCKs 365 00:20:57,524 --> 00:21:00,164 Speaker 1: the other player's hand and says that Maurice has won 366 00:21:00,684 --> 00:21:03,684 Speaker 1: with a straight. Maurice has awarded the pot. The other 367 00:21:03,764 --> 00:21:09,004 Speaker 1: player is eliminated, and Maurice goes on to win his ring, 368 00:21:10,324 --> 00:21:14,124 Speaker 1: ring number eighteen. It turns out that the pot was 369 00:21:14,164 --> 00:21:18,364 Speaker 1: awarded incorrectly. The player who was eliminated had actually had 370 00:21:18,404 --> 00:21:22,084 Speaker 1: a flush and was supposed to win the hand. This 371 00:21:22,284 --> 00:21:26,364 Speaker 1: was all captured on camera in the moment, and so 372 00:21:26,484 --> 00:21:30,884 Speaker 1: there's a lot of controversy around what went wrong and 373 00:21:31,164 --> 00:21:33,724 Speaker 1: also kind of what is the role of the media, 374 00:21:33,924 --> 00:21:36,004 Speaker 1: right because someone was filming this hand, what is the 375 00:21:36,084 --> 00:21:40,044 Speaker 1: role of onlookers? What role do people have to actually 376 00:21:40,364 --> 00:21:43,444 Speaker 1: make sure that the pot is awarded to the correct hand. 377 00:21:43,764 --> 00:21:46,964 Speaker 1: Both hands were on their backs, we can see all cards, 378 00:21:47,004 --> 00:21:49,964 Speaker 1: you can see what the winning hand is. Somehow the dealer, 379 00:21:50,084 --> 00:21:53,604 Speaker 1: the other two players, the media, everyone on the rail, 380 00:21:53,924 --> 00:21:58,084 Speaker 1: nobody speaks up and this poor kid is eliminated instead 381 00:21:58,084 --> 00:22:01,644 Speaker 1: of doubling up, potentially changing the outcome. And this is 382 00:22:01,804 --> 00:22:04,524 Speaker 1: this is a lot of money, right, we're talking. Oh, 383 00:22:04,564 --> 00:22:07,244 Speaker 1: this is a difference in payout of over one hundred 384 00:22:07,284 --> 00:22:10,484 Speaker 1: thousand dollars. This is life changing money. This does not 385 00:22:10,644 --> 00:22:13,204 Speaker 1: happen often. But you know, how do we think about 386 00:22:13,244 --> 00:22:16,764 Speaker 1: this and what you know, what should be done? And 387 00:22:16,884 --> 00:22:21,164 Speaker 1: people are incredibly incredibly split on this, which actually shocked me. 388 00:22:22,004 --> 00:22:25,364 Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, has the World series done anything for him? 389 00:22:25,364 --> 00:22:26,164 Speaker 2: Like I would give him? 390 00:22:26,284 --> 00:22:30,004 Speaker 1: No? Okay, yeah, nothing has been done. It was it 391 00:22:30,084 --> 00:22:34,964 Speaker 1: was basically a tough shit, dude. It's your responsibility to 392 00:22:35,004 --> 00:22:38,444 Speaker 1: protect your hand and you're done well. 393 00:22:38,444 --> 00:22:41,364 Speaker 2: First of all, the dealer it's an all in pot, right, 394 00:22:41,404 --> 00:22:43,964 Speaker 2: so both hands are face up for the entire table, 395 00:22:45,604 --> 00:22:52,564 Speaker 2: and he MUCKs the sensible loser's hand really fast, right, 396 00:22:52,924 --> 00:22:55,684 Speaker 2: which was just strange. Right, there's no reason to rush it. 397 00:22:55,844 --> 00:22:58,284 Speaker 2: He dealt the whole so it's one thing. Also, the 398 00:22:58,364 --> 00:23:00,764 Speaker 2: guy said, oh I thought I won, right. 399 00:23:00,964 --> 00:23:03,564 Speaker 1: Yeah, so this is this is crucial. Yet on the video, 400 00:23:04,124 --> 00:23:07,684 Speaker 1: the person who loses actually says, oh I thought I won, 401 00:23:08,284 --> 00:23:11,044 Speaker 1: and instead of a knowledging that the dealer takes his 402 00:23:11,124 --> 00:23:15,284 Speaker 1: hand which is still perfectly identifiable, and pushes it into 403 00:23:15,324 --> 00:23:18,404 Speaker 1: the muck, which is the big pile of cards, which 404 00:23:18,444 --> 00:23:20,324 Speaker 1: is something that you should absolutely never do. 405 00:23:20,844 --> 00:23:22,764 Speaker 2: You know, they have cameras because he knows, so you 406 00:23:22,804 --> 00:23:25,124 Speaker 2: can always and you know, there are sometimes circumstances where 407 00:23:25,164 --> 00:23:27,804 Speaker 2: if if one player thinks a few chips are missing, 408 00:23:27,844 --> 00:23:30,964 Speaker 2: they can pause the entire table, if not the entire 409 00:23:31,004 --> 00:23:34,164 Speaker 2: tournament for you know, for a long periods of time sometimes, 410 00:23:34,164 --> 00:23:36,204 Speaker 2: I mean, so, it was just it was very weird, 411 00:23:36,204 --> 00:23:39,444 Speaker 2: and also, like my experience has been that, like, especially 412 00:23:39,484 --> 00:23:43,484 Speaker 2: in the four Card games, that players like actually go 413 00:23:43,844 --> 00:23:47,924 Speaker 2: out of their way to point out errors when it's 414 00:23:47,924 --> 00:23:50,684 Speaker 2: not in their best interests to do so, right, especially 415 00:23:50,684 --> 00:23:52,604 Speaker 2: when the thing I'm thinking about is like kind of 416 00:23:52,644 --> 00:23:56,524 Speaker 2: like you know, early in the World series, where the 417 00:23:56,564 --> 00:23:58,564 Speaker 2: dealers are very new and not used to dealing. This 418 00:23:58,604 --> 00:23:59,604 Speaker 2: is to hold them, so I don't know what the 419 00:23:59,604 --> 00:24:02,164 Speaker 2: dealer's problem is, right, used to deal, they're doing all 420 00:24:02,164 --> 00:24:04,724 Speaker 2: these types of different games, Like players are acting as 421 00:24:04,844 --> 00:24:07,684 Speaker 2: like the eyes of the house, right and are go 422 00:24:07,724 --> 00:24:09,324 Speaker 2: out of their way to like point stuff out. I 423 00:24:09,444 --> 00:24:12,404 Speaker 2: actually had something work in my favor one time right 424 00:24:12,444 --> 00:24:19,084 Speaker 2: where like I was playing Omaha uh eight, which is 425 00:24:19,124 --> 00:24:21,724 Speaker 2: a high low game. It's a limit game. It's not 426 00:24:21,884 --> 00:24:24,804 Speaker 2: all in game, not a pot limit game, I should say. 427 00:24:26,004 --> 00:24:32,244 Speaker 2: And like I called with with hoping to win the 428 00:24:32,284 --> 00:24:34,484 Speaker 2: low half of the pot. I had a bad call. 429 00:24:34,524 --> 00:24:38,004 Speaker 2: I could badhand good pot odds just lo across country, tired, 430 00:24:38,044 --> 00:24:41,444 Speaker 2: don't play am that much, right, and I don't have 431 00:24:41,484 --> 00:24:47,244 Speaker 2: the best low and I'm about to muck my hand, right, 432 00:24:47,644 --> 00:24:51,404 Speaker 2: but someone says, oh, you can't beat you can't win 433 00:24:51,444 --> 00:24:53,604 Speaker 2: the high, right, you have any pair at all? And 434 00:24:53,684 --> 00:24:56,244 Speaker 2: I did an a pair of asses and a bad kicker. 435 00:24:56,284 --> 00:24:57,884 Speaker 2: The other guy busted out in the high had only 436 00:24:57,924 --> 00:25:00,484 Speaker 2: a low hand right because my hand had not was 437 00:25:00,524 --> 00:25:02,484 Speaker 2: not reprievable in the muck yet I was able to 438 00:25:02,564 --> 00:25:06,284 Speaker 2: turn it over the dealer had not mucked quickly enough. Right. 439 00:25:06,324 --> 00:25:08,324 Speaker 2: But the point is even then people are saying, okay, 440 00:25:08,524 --> 00:25:11,964 Speaker 2: just make sure you didn't do something stupid and give 441 00:25:12,004 --> 00:25:14,324 Speaker 2: away like half the pot, right. And so it's very 442 00:25:14,364 --> 00:25:17,004 Speaker 2: odd that like nobody else at the table said anything. 443 00:25:17,004 --> 00:25:18,324 Speaker 2: I have that one or two times where it's like 444 00:25:18,364 --> 00:25:21,084 Speaker 2: did you miss that straight on the board, right, And 445 00:25:21,124 --> 00:25:22,724 Speaker 2: no one else will say anything. Anyone kind of like 446 00:25:22,964 --> 00:25:26,164 Speaker 2: picks themselves into saying, okay, well if it sure looks 447 00:25:26,204 --> 00:25:29,244 Speaker 2: like there's a straight on the board, right, but no 448 00:25:29,244 --> 00:25:31,644 Speaker 2: one else is saying anything, so I won't say anything. 449 00:25:31,884 --> 00:25:35,124 Speaker 2: But it's it's it's very bizarre that, like a bunch 450 00:25:35,204 --> 00:25:37,564 Speaker 2: of things that don't usually happen, the dealer has to 451 00:25:37,604 --> 00:25:40,044 Speaker 2: make this mistake. The player has to be like, how 452 00:25:40,044 --> 00:25:44,684 Speaker 2: are you not like sweating this hand? Right? I mean, 453 00:25:44,684 --> 00:25:46,764 Speaker 2: they're a weird way. We need to get more detail about, 454 00:25:46,764 --> 00:25:49,044 Speaker 2: like under what circumstances you might be mentally checked out? 455 00:25:49,084 --> 00:25:51,404 Speaker 1: But like, yeah, so I think kind of from a 456 00:25:51,404 --> 00:25:53,604 Speaker 1: broader perspective, I think there are a few things going 457 00:25:53,604 --> 00:25:57,764 Speaker 1: on here. So first, like in terms of decision making, right, 458 00:25:57,844 --> 00:26:00,404 Speaker 1: this is I think we should point out that this 459 00:26:00,484 --> 00:26:03,724 Speaker 1: is a much higher emotion, kind of and hotter situation 460 00:26:03,844 --> 00:26:04,364 Speaker 1: than normal. 461 00:26:04,604 --> 00:26:04,764 Speaker 2: Right. 462 00:26:04,804 --> 00:26:07,484 Speaker 1: This isn't a normal poker hand. This is the final 463 00:26:07,644 --> 00:26:11,204 Speaker 1: three players in a huge turn for a ring. Right, 464 00:26:11,244 --> 00:26:14,684 Speaker 1: So emotions are running high and people are kind of 465 00:26:15,524 --> 00:26:18,804 Speaker 1: people are much more kind of in the moment. This 466 00:26:18,884 --> 00:26:21,084 Speaker 1: is much more consequential, right than if this had been 467 00:26:21,124 --> 00:26:24,644 Speaker 1: an all in the day before. Right, with thirty players left, 468 00:26:24,644 --> 00:26:28,124 Speaker 1: three hundred players left, however, a enemy. So that means 469 00:26:28,164 --> 00:26:30,404 Speaker 1: two things for decision making. First, your decision making does 470 00:26:30,404 --> 00:26:34,164 Speaker 1: get worse in those moments. But secondly, because the kind 471 00:26:34,204 --> 00:26:37,564 Speaker 1: of the risk reward is so much higher and the 472 00:26:37,644 --> 00:26:40,404 Speaker 1: consequences are so much higher and the payoffs matter so 473 00:26:40,524 --> 00:26:44,564 Speaker 1: much more, you should be it's in those moments where 474 00:26:44,604 --> 00:26:46,724 Speaker 1: you need to kind of be paying the most attention 475 00:26:47,244 --> 00:26:49,524 Speaker 1: and so and so I think that we have kind 476 00:26:49,564 --> 00:26:52,444 Speaker 1: of that sort of dynamic here where I think that 477 00:26:52,724 --> 00:26:55,524 Speaker 1: the player who busted he did say I think I won, 478 00:26:55,804 --> 00:26:57,804 Speaker 1: but then he didn't insist on it because I think 479 00:26:57,844 --> 00:27:00,724 Speaker 1: that he's flustered, right, he just busted this tournament in 480 00:27:00,764 --> 00:27:02,684 Speaker 1: this big spot, and he doesn't want to look dumb. 481 00:27:02,884 --> 00:27:04,884 Speaker 1: He doesn't want to be like, no, I think I 482 00:27:04,924 --> 00:27:08,124 Speaker 1: won and then realize that he didn't actually win, and 483 00:27:08,164 --> 00:27:10,564 Speaker 1: he you know, I think that all of these things, 484 00:27:10,604 --> 00:27:14,684 Speaker 1: all of these emotional things, are clouding the moment. But 485 00:27:14,764 --> 00:27:17,844 Speaker 1: I think that the other part of this, and the 486 00:27:17,884 --> 00:27:20,404 Speaker 1: reason that I was really interested in this, because as 487 00:27:20,444 --> 00:27:22,724 Speaker 1: you know, I'm writing a book about cheating, is kind 488 00:27:22,724 --> 00:27:26,004 Speaker 1: of what is the responsibility of different people in this hand? 489 00:27:26,244 --> 00:27:29,684 Speaker 1: And obviously, like ultimately the mistake is absolutely the dealers, right, 490 00:27:29,924 --> 00:27:32,964 Speaker 1: and the players, but the dealers, the speed of mucking 491 00:27:33,124 --> 00:27:37,084 Speaker 1: was huge, But is it you know, people were very 492 00:27:38,284 --> 00:27:40,844 Speaker 1: were incredibly torn. And to me, this is the interesting 493 00:27:40,884 --> 00:27:43,604 Speaker 1: part on whether the media should have spoken up, right, 494 00:27:43,764 --> 00:27:45,924 Speaker 1: And I was shocked at how many people are like, no, 495 00:27:45,964 --> 00:27:48,764 Speaker 1: they should absolutely not speak up. They should not insert 496 00:27:48,804 --> 00:27:52,244 Speaker 1: themselves into the story. I'm like, are you kidding me? Right, 497 00:27:52,364 --> 00:27:55,004 Speaker 1: As someone who is a member of the media, who's 498 00:27:55,044 --> 00:27:58,164 Speaker 1: been trained, you know, to not be part of the story, 499 00:27:58,604 --> 00:28:00,884 Speaker 1: that completely goes out the window when it becomes an 500 00:28:00,924 --> 00:28:04,324 Speaker 1: ethical issue. Right, So we are trained you do not 501 00:28:04,484 --> 00:28:06,524 Speaker 1: become part of the story. But if you see that 502 00:28:06,604 --> 00:28:10,644 Speaker 1: someone got stabbed, you call nine one one. You don't say, oh, 503 00:28:10,684 --> 00:28:11,644 Speaker 1: I'm just observing. 504 00:28:11,724 --> 00:28:14,644 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a prime directive of Star Trek. Like, it's 505 00:28:14,684 --> 00:28:18,164 Speaker 2: not a rule, the prime directive. I don't know, I'm 506 00:28:18,244 --> 00:28:19,844 Speaker 2: not as much of us, but like, you're not allowed 507 00:28:19,884 --> 00:28:22,444 Speaker 2: to interfere in a primitive alien culture, right, there's no 508 00:28:22,524 --> 00:28:24,404 Speaker 2: rule like that in the poker book. In fact, the 509 00:28:24,444 --> 00:28:26,524 Speaker 2: rule is that cards is that cards speak. 510 00:28:26,324 --> 00:28:28,004 Speaker 1: Right, cards speak, Yes. 511 00:28:27,964 --> 00:28:29,404 Speaker 2: Cards are face up in the sand. It's not a 512 00:28:29,404 --> 00:28:32,284 Speaker 2: case where somebody incorrectly mucked, then you can't do anything 513 00:28:32,284 --> 00:28:33,044 Speaker 2: about it, right. 514 00:28:33,364 --> 00:28:36,284 Speaker 1: Yeah, this is this is a case where both hands 515 00:28:36,324 --> 00:28:38,604 Speaker 1: are tabled, and so I think it's absolutely the ethical 516 00:28:38,684 --> 00:28:41,644 Speaker 1: responsibility of someone who notices it to speak up. Let 517 00:28:41,724 --> 00:28:44,484 Speaker 1: me give a less extreme example, like imagine, Nate, I'm 518 00:28:45,164 --> 00:28:48,084 Speaker 1: set on a beat to cover life in Central Park 519 00:28:48,204 --> 00:28:50,764 Speaker 1: right in New York. So I'm there kind of observing 520 00:28:50,764 --> 00:28:52,444 Speaker 1: and I'm writing about this, right, I'm not going to 521 00:28:52,524 --> 00:28:55,364 Speaker 1: interfere because I'm just watching people. And then I see 522 00:28:55,404 --> 00:29:00,044 Speaker 1: someone's wallet get swiped. Do I not say anything because 523 00:29:00,044 --> 00:29:02,804 Speaker 1: they because a person didn't notice and they're just standing 524 00:29:02,844 --> 00:29:06,124 Speaker 1: having a conversation, Or do I say, hey, thief, right 525 00:29:06,244 --> 00:29:08,804 Speaker 1: and actually point out that something that your wallet just 526 00:29:08,844 --> 00:29:11,004 Speaker 1: got stolen. Of course I'm going to say something. I'm 527 00:29:11,004 --> 00:29:13,684 Speaker 1: not gonna even if you're not dying, I'm going to say, hey, 528 00:29:13,764 --> 00:29:16,404 Speaker 1: someone just stole your wallet, right, like we need to, 529 00:29:17,044 --> 00:29:17,724 Speaker 1: I'm sure, I think. 530 00:29:17,764 --> 00:29:20,044 Speaker 2: I mean, you know, if I were covering a political 531 00:29:20,044 --> 00:29:25,084 Speaker 2: campaign and I detected illegal activity, right, I wouldn't tell 532 00:29:25,084 --> 00:29:27,164 Speaker 2: the police about that. I'd write about it, or I'd 533 00:29:27,244 --> 00:29:29,404 Speaker 2: choose not to. I don't know. I mean, it's like 534 00:29:29,444 --> 00:29:31,284 Speaker 2: the analogy. But like, look, I don't. 535 00:29:31,604 --> 00:29:33,924 Speaker 1: But that's different. So we're talking about something where you 536 00:29:33,964 --> 00:29:36,724 Speaker 1: can immediately right where you see a crime being committed 537 00:29:36,764 --> 00:29:39,444 Speaker 1: in the moment, and you can immediately do something. If 538 00:29:39,484 --> 00:29:42,484 Speaker 1: you detected a legal activity in a political campaign, you know, 539 00:29:42,524 --> 00:29:44,484 Speaker 1: and you had to follow the money, et cetera, et cetera, 540 00:29:44,564 --> 00:29:48,444 Speaker 1: you'd report out the story. But if you actually observed 541 00:29:48,724 --> 00:29:51,724 Speaker 1: something illegal happening that you could change in the moment, 542 00:29:51,804 --> 00:29:53,684 Speaker 1: I think you would. That's a very difficult. 543 00:29:54,204 --> 00:29:57,164 Speaker 2: Let's say we are at the World Series of Summer 544 00:29:57,204 --> 00:30:00,484 Speaker 2: only a couple months away now, and we have may 545 00:30:00,524 --> 00:30:02,204 Speaker 2: plans to get dinner together. You say, I'm a table 546 00:30:02,284 --> 00:30:04,724 Speaker 2: six hundred and twelve or whatever. Your table's taking a 547 00:30:04,804 --> 00:30:08,444 Speaker 2: long time to finish a tend. I come over. I 548 00:30:08,564 --> 00:30:11,124 Speaker 2: notice you, full right. I noticed that. Then the two 549 00:30:11,124 --> 00:30:13,404 Speaker 2: remaining players, the pot is pushed to the wrong player, 550 00:30:13,804 --> 00:30:16,044 Speaker 2: and I say, nothing at your table. Wait, that dude 551 00:30:16,044 --> 00:30:19,604 Speaker 2: just made a flush. Yeah, Like that's okay, Right, so 552 00:30:19,644 --> 00:30:20,364 Speaker 2: it's an immediate thing. 553 00:30:20,444 --> 00:30:24,844 Speaker 1: You're like, it's absolutely okay. And I also want I 554 00:30:24,884 --> 00:30:28,764 Speaker 1: hate when people start immediately going out to the grander arguments. Well, 555 00:30:28,924 --> 00:30:31,204 Speaker 1: the media's job is to report, it's not to kind 556 00:30:31,244 --> 00:30:34,204 Speaker 1: of police the hand. Yeah, absolutely, that's exactly right. The 557 00:30:34,204 --> 00:30:36,484 Speaker 1: media's job is to report. I'm not saying it's their 558 00:30:36,524 --> 00:30:40,044 Speaker 1: responsibility to be paying attention to who's awarded the pot 559 00:30:40,044 --> 00:30:43,084 Speaker 1: in every single hand. That's not their responsibility, right, Just 560 00:30:43,084 --> 00:30:45,764 Speaker 1: like it's not my responsibility to walk around Central Park 561 00:30:45,804 --> 00:30:48,124 Speaker 1: looking to see if there are crimes being committed that 562 00:30:48,204 --> 00:30:50,524 Speaker 1: I can help. We have police, we have people who 563 00:30:50,564 --> 00:30:53,484 Speaker 1: do that. But if you happen to see in the moment, 564 00:30:53,924 --> 00:30:56,484 Speaker 1: and if you happen to know that, then you should absolutely. 565 00:30:56,524 --> 00:30:59,404 Speaker 1: I think it's your ethical obligation to speak up. 566 00:30:59,484 --> 00:31:01,404 Speaker 2: Yeah, and as part of the poker again, I go 567 00:31:01,484 --> 00:31:04,244 Speaker 2: back to these events. You know, the ethic of the 568 00:31:04,284 --> 00:31:09,644 Speaker 2: community is that, like we speak up, to speak up 569 00:31:09,644 --> 00:31:12,164 Speaker 2: to dealer errors or errors in terms of how the 570 00:31:12,164 --> 00:31:15,964 Speaker 2: tournament is run, but especially dealer errors. Right, it's a 571 00:31:16,004 --> 00:31:19,924 Speaker 2: community's responsibility to speak up. But by the way, if 572 00:31:19,924 --> 00:31:21,524 Speaker 2: you want to talk about like the equilibrium, right, like 573 00:31:21,804 --> 00:31:24,644 Speaker 2: if you didn't have people willing to help out a 574 00:31:24,684 --> 00:31:27,204 Speaker 2: confused dealer, then you'd have to like you would have 575 00:31:27,244 --> 00:31:30,084 Speaker 2: longer lines because you wouldn't have enough qualified dealers, or 576 00:31:30,884 --> 00:31:32,844 Speaker 2: maybe they pay dealers more, but then the rake is 577 00:31:32,884 --> 00:31:34,564 Speaker 2: higher and things like that, right, and so like I 578 00:31:34,564 --> 00:31:40,284 Speaker 2: think it's kind of like explicitly ethical for if a 579 00:31:40,324 --> 00:31:45,004 Speaker 2: player to speak up when when dealers make mistakes. I mean, 580 00:31:45,004 --> 00:31:47,324 Speaker 2: the thing is too that's weird about it though, like 581 00:31:47,324 --> 00:31:50,964 Speaker 2: like didn't Maurice Hawkins, No, you know what I mean? 582 00:31:51,164 --> 00:31:54,004 Speaker 1: Or I'm assuming, like we don't know, but I'm assuming 583 00:31:54,444 --> 00:31:59,124 Speaker 1: he did given how he behaved, because he is someone 584 00:31:59,124 --> 00:32:02,044 Speaker 1: who always celebrates and is very in your face when 585 00:32:02,044 --> 00:32:04,964 Speaker 1: he wins and you see him on the term, on 586 00:32:05,004 --> 00:32:07,564 Speaker 1: the turn like being like you know, straight, like blah 587 00:32:07,604 --> 00:32:09,764 Speaker 1: blah blah, like I got this, and then on the 588 00:32:09,884 --> 00:32:12,724 Speaker 1: river as opposed to celebrating, he just goes quiet. He 589 00:32:12,804 --> 00:32:15,724 Speaker 1: goes silent, and that is we don't know, We don't 590 00:32:15,764 --> 00:32:19,324 Speaker 1: know this, but I think that you know, we have 591 00:32:19,404 --> 00:32:22,764 Speaker 1: a duty to any kind of community that we are 592 00:32:22,924 --> 00:32:26,164 Speaker 1: part of that we love to kind of keep to 593 00:32:26,284 --> 00:32:29,964 Speaker 1: keep things above board, right, to keep things to keep 594 00:32:30,004 --> 00:32:34,244 Speaker 1: the community good, and to actually like ensure that good 595 00:32:34,284 --> 00:32:38,564 Speaker 1: behavior is rewarded and bad behavior is punished. And let's 596 00:32:38,644 --> 00:32:42,324 Speaker 1: just like if you zoom out even further to journalism, 597 00:32:42,524 --> 00:32:45,564 Speaker 1: like some of the best journalisms, journalists have sometimes fucked 598 00:32:45,644 --> 00:32:49,204 Speaker 1: up right and not intervened when they should have, and 599 00:32:49,444 --> 00:32:52,644 Speaker 1: they were punished for it. Because I think that just ethically, 600 00:32:52,884 --> 00:32:55,684 Speaker 1: we do have kind of this duty to speak up. 601 00:33:00,884 --> 00:33:07,004 Speaker 2: We'll be right back after this message. 602 00:33:16,004 --> 00:33:20,044 Speaker 1: The bigger, the bigger point here is that like we 603 00:33:20,164 --> 00:33:23,244 Speaker 1: all make poor decisions when we're tired, when emotions are 604 00:33:23,284 --> 00:33:26,484 Speaker 1: running high, when you know, when you're in hot situations 605 00:33:26,524 --> 00:33:28,884 Speaker 1: and everyone you know, you can just not see things 606 00:33:28,924 --> 00:33:30,924 Speaker 1: that are right in front of your face. You know. 607 00:33:31,084 --> 00:33:34,244 Speaker 1: An attentional blindness is a real thing. When you're not 608 00:33:34,364 --> 00:33:37,444 Speaker 1: looking for certain cards, you're not looking for certain things, 609 00:33:37,444 --> 00:33:40,124 Speaker 1: and you just completely miss It can happen to anyone. 610 00:33:40,604 --> 00:33:42,524 Speaker 1: Just back in December, by the way, I missed a 611 00:33:42,524 --> 00:33:45,804 Speaker 1: flush yet had and this was and this was the 612 00:33:45,844 --> 00:33:49,404 Speaker 1: ten k when main event. This was day three or four, 613 00:33:49,644 --> 00:33:52,564 Speaker 1: I think it was day four. It was very deep 614 00:33:53,284 --> 00:33:55,604 Speaker 1: and you know, I had gone all in with a 615 00:33:55,604 --> 00:33:58,084 Speaker 1: pair of queens against a pair of kings. The kings 616 00:33:58,164 --> 00:34:00,364 Speaker 1: hit a set on the flop, so I was like, 617 00:34:00,404 --> 00:34:03,004 Speaker 1: you know, I'm dead right, And then on the turn 618 00:34:03,124 --> 00:34:05,444 Speaker 1: I was drawing to a straight. But I also did 619 00:34:05,444 --> 00:34:07,604 Speaker 1: not realize that it was another club and I had 620 00:34:07,644 --> 00:34:09,044 Speaker 1: the Queen of clubs and he did not have the 621 00:34:09,124 --> 00:34:11,204 Speaker 1: King of clubs. So when the strait didn't hit on 622 00:34:11,284 --> 00:34:14,044 Speaker 1: the river, I left because I thought I busted. And 623 00:34:14,284 --> 00:34:17,844 Speaker 1: the player who lost the hand who had the kings 624 00:34:17,884 --> 00:34:20,884 Speaker 1: was like, wait, you have a flush, and the dealer 625 00:34:21,044 --> 00:34:24,164 Speaker 1: was like and called me back. Right, That's that's what 626 00:34:24,244 --> 00:34:28,404 Speaker 1: you do. That's the only ethical way of handling that situation. 627 00:34:29,004 --> 00:34:32,804 Speaker 2: I had a spot where a lot of at one 628 00:34:32,804 --> 00:34:33,804 Speaker 2: point I had a lot of chips in one of 629 00:34:33,844 --> 00:34:37,244 Speaker 2: these poker goat tournaments and then lost a big flip 630 00:34:37,364 --> 00:34:40,244 Speaker 2: and they didn't have many chips, and then like, you know, 631 00:34:40,364 --> 00:34:44,244 Speaker 2: another hand shoved like fifteen big linds from the small 632 00:34:44,244 --> 00:34:47,524 Speaker 2: blind open shove with like a decent queen, you know, 633 00:34:47,644 --> 00:34:52,404 Speaker 2: Queen seven, Queen six, suited, Queen ate off something in 634 00:34:52,444 --> 00:34:59,044 Speaker 2: that missiny middling strength hand right and made trips, I mean, 635 00:34:59,084 --> 00:35:01,444 Speaker 2: three of a kind queens. But the guy backed into 636 00:35:01,524 --> 00:35:04,844 Speaker 2: like Broadway straight. So it was kind of pissed and 637 00:35:04,924 --> 00:35:07,924 Speaker 2: like I just lost this flip and then lost this 638 00:35:07,964 --> 00:35:09,884 Speaker 2: other thing that wasn't technically a flip, but whatever, right, 639 00:35:09,924 --> 00:35:12,404 Speaker 2: and you know, I get up to leave and he's like, no, dude, 640 00:35:12,444 --> 00:35:15,084 Speaker 2: that guy only had two bling buds left, right, He 641 00:35:15,204 --> 00:35:18,084 Speaker 2: had almost busted in the previous hand and kind of 642 00:35:18,084 --> 00:35:20,524 Speaker 2: being like tired and like, you know, a little mine 643 00:35:20,564 --> 00:35:22,764 Speaker 2: off has tilted. But like but yeah, your your attention 644 00:35:22,884 --> 00:35:27,684 Speaker 2: span can, yeah, can wane in situations like this. This 645 00:35:27,724 --> 00:35:30,524 Speaker 2: is why it's bad idea to play four card games 646 00:35:30,564 --> 00:35:32,284 Speaker 2: and you just flew across the country by the. 647 00:35:32,204 --> 00:35:34,484 Speaker 1: Way, Yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the 648 00:35:34,484 --> 00:35:38,524 Speaker 1: bigger issues here. Like we all make mistakes in emotional situations, 649 00:35:38,524 --> 00:35:42,244 Speaker 1: and so everyone else should like people should try to 650 00:35:42,284 --> 00:35:45,964 Speaker 1: rectify those mistakes. You should try to be helpful, and 651 00:35:46,004 --> 00:35:49,764 Speaker 1: that is I think something of a of an ethical 652 00:35:50,444 --> 00:35:51,244 Speaker 1: obligation there. 653 00:35:51,444 --> 00:35:55,484 Speaker 2: And also if you you know, don't be afraid to 654 00:35:55,604 --> 00:35:59,324 Speaker 2: do things that are mildly embarrassing, but that like yeah, 655 00:35:59,604 --> 00:36:01,844 Speaker 2: or you know, so for example, let's say that I 656 00:36:01,964 --> 00:36:04,884 Speaker 2: didn't eat breakfast and wait for the dinner break and 657 00:36:04,844 --> 00:36:07,324 Speaker 2: it's a little shaky or something, right, like I'll just 658 00:36:07,404 --> 00:36:10,684 Speaker 2: verbally start declaring my bets, you know, five thousand or something, right, 659 00:36:10,684 --> 00:36:12,844 Speaker 2: because I don't want any tales having to do with 660 00:36:12,924 --> 00:36:15,364 Speaker 2: like my handshaking or things like that. Or like, you know, 661 00:36:15,564 --> 00:36:17,484 Speaker 2: sometimes you'll see you where a player is confused about 662 00:36:17,484 --> 00:36:19,564 Speaker 2: how to read the board, right, usually not and hold them, 663 00:36:19,564 --> 00:36:22,724 Speaker 2: but sometimes and hold them too, and they'll look at 664 00:36:22,764 --> 00:36:24,924 Speaker 2: their hand and stare at their hand and try to 665 00:36:24,964 --> 00:36:28,164 Speaker 2: figure out whether they made something, especially in Omaha games. Right, 666 00:36:28,364 --> 00:36:32,524 Speaker 2: Just table your hand, right. Everybody misreads boards in Omaha, right. 667 00:36:32,764 --> 00:36:34,804 Speaker 2: You never know when you are missing, like especially like 668 00:36:35,164 --> 00:36:37,484 Speaker 2: some bomb pot or something right, or a split pot game, 669 00:36:37,564 --> 00:36:40,084 Speaker 2: like you probably made some two pair that you forgot about, 670 00:36:40,364 --> 00:36:42,764 Speaker 2: you know, if you're playing big oh five cards, right, 671 00:36:42,964 --> 00:36:44,924 Speaker 2: So just table your fucking hand. It's not that embarrassing. 672 00:36:44,964 --> 00:36:47,564 Speaker 2: Everyone plays all kind of crap and the big old 673 00:36:47,564 --> 00:36:50,564 Speaker 2: games anyway, rights, you know, because you're gonna feel a 674 00:36:50,564 --> 00:36:53,484 Speaker 2: lot worse if you go to bed like, oh shit, 675 00:36:53,564 --> 00:36:56,804 Speaker 2: I think I actually rivered a back door straight kind 676 00:36:56,804 --> 00:36:57,044 Speaker 2: of thing. 677 00:36:57,604 --> 00:37:00,004 Speaker 1: Yeah, now, of course. So I think the big takeaway 678 00:37:00,124 --> 00:37:02,844 Speaker 1: from this is everyone makes mistakes. It's hard to make 679 00:37:02,884 --> 00:37:08,004 Speaker 1: decisions when you're tired. Give yourself some slack, give other 680 00:37:08,044 --> 00:37:12,044 Speaker 1: people some slack, don't be afraid of looking dumb, and 681 00:37:12,124 --> 00:37:15,084 Speaker 1: do speak up, right, because as you get more and 682 00:37:15,164 --> 00:37:17,284 Speaker 1: more people who say nothing. I think that's the other 683 00:37:17,364 --> 00:37:20,004 Speaker 1: part of this. There is this tendency to say, oh 684 00:37:20,044 --> 00:37:23,524 Speaker 1: I must be wrong. Don't succumb to that and be 685 00:37:23,604 --> 00:37:26,044 Speaker 1: the one person who says, wait, can we just look 686 00:37:26,084 --> 00:37:29,004 Speaker 1: at this one more time? And I think that everyone 687 00:37:29,044 --> 00:37:31,844 Speaker 1: will be better off, whether you're playing poker or in 688 00:37:31,884 --> 00:37:32,724 Speaker 1: some other situation. 689 00:37:33,084 --> 00:37:35,084 Speaker 2: And by the way, this helps the less experienced players 690 00:37:35,084 --> 00:37:37,404 Speaker 2: that we all want in our game. Right, I make 691 00:37:37,524 --> 00:37:41,484 Speaker 2: far fewer misclicks, meaning when you actually bet the wrong 692 00:37:41,524 --> 00:37:44,364 Speaker 2: amount right or mystery people's stacks despite the previous example, 693 00:37:44,404 --> 00:37:46,044 Speaker 2: you know, you just do a lot less of that, 694 00:37:46,284 --> 00:37:49,004 Speaker 2: whereas those things are like super fucking stressful to players 695 00:37:49,004 --> 00:37:51,444 Speaker 2: if they only play live poker like once every now 696 00:37:51,484 --> 00:37:54,444 Speaker 2: and then, right, and so like being again, don't give 697 00:37:54,484 --> 00:37:58,164 Speaker 2: players strange but at least protect errors that the dealer 698 00:37:58,204 --> 00:38:02,124 Speaker 2: makes some things too, like if dealers are are pitching 699 00:38:02,164 --> 00:38:06,204 Speaker 2: cards too high right so you can see maybe the 700 00:38:06,244 --> 00:38:09,004 Speaker 2: color of the card, right, like, you should say something 701 00:38:10,044 --> 00:38:13,044 Speaker 2: about them, like don't be like, oh, I'm being rude 702 00:38:13,084 --> 00:38:15,244 Speaker 2: to this dealer. You know it's like no, that's going 703 00:38:15,244 --> 00:38:17,124 Speaker 2: to create an advantage for players in certain seats and 704 00:38:17,124 --> 00:38:19,364 Speaker 2: maybe including you, right, and like, so you should you 705 00:38:19,404 --> 00:38:20,204 Speaker 2: should say something. 706 00:38:20,284 --> 00:38:23,004 Speaker 1: You should Yep, you should always speak up if you 707 00:38:23,084 --> 00:38:26,004 Speaker 1: see something, say something. Brought to you by the New 708 00:38:26,084 --> 00:38:27,404 Speaker 1: York City Subway. 709 00:38:38,324 --> 00:38:41,644 Speaker 2: And if you're not subscribing yet, consider signing up for 710 00:38:41,764 --> 00:38:43,964 Speaker 2: just six ninety nine a month. What a nice price. 711 00:38:44,284 --> 00:38:47,044 Speaker 2: You get access to all that premium content and ad 712 00:38:47,164 --> 00:38:49,764 Speaker 2: for listening across Pushkin's entire network of shows. 713 00:38:50,084 --> 00:38:53,444 Speaker 1: Risky Business is hosted by me Maria Kanakova. 714 00:38:52,844 --> 00:38:55,204 Speaker 2: And by me Nate Silver. The show is a co 715 00:38:55,244 --> 00:38:59,404 Speaker 2: production of Pushkin Industries and iHeartMedia. This episode was produced 716 00:38:59,444 --> 00:39:03,004 Speaker 2: by Isabelle Carter. Our associate producer is Gabriel Hunter Chang. 717 00:39:03,524 --> 00:39:06,524 Speaker 2: Sally Helm is our editor, and our executive producer is 718 00:39:06,604 --> 00:39:09,084 Speaker 2: Jacob Goldstein. Mixing by Sarah Bruder. 719 00:39:09,604 --> 00:39:11,964 Speaker 1: If you like this show, please rate and review us 720 00:39:12,004 --> 00:39:14,364 Speaker 1: so other people can find us too. Thanks so much 721 00:39:14,404 --> 00:39:14,924 Speaker 1: for tuning in.