Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am Matt,
Speaker 1: and today we're talking affordable home cooked meals that are
Speaker 1: good enough with lean Brown. So you know how your
Speaker 1: friends they have different like specialties, like you know who
Speaker 1: to call if you need a plumber recommendation, or you
Speaker 1: know which friend has the best beach recommendations in Florida. Well,
Speaker 1: Leanne Brown is who comes to mind when it comes
Speaker 1: to eating really well but for less. Leanne calls herself
Speaker 1: your friend in the kitchen and her New York Times
Speaker 1: best seller Good and Cheap is now free and has
Speaker 1: been downloaded millions of times. Will make sure to link
Speaker 1: to that in the show notes. Uh And now, her
Speaker 1: new cookbook, good Enough, was just published last week. It's
Speaker 1: a mix of essays, personal stories, and delicious recipes, as
Speaker 1: she also acknowledges the fear and anxiety that many have
Speaker 1: when it comes to cooking. We're gonna talk about all
Speaker 1: of that and more today. Leanne. Thank you for joining
Speaker 1: us today on the podcast. Thank you for having me,
Speaker 1: and we're looking forward to this chat. We're looking forward
Speaker 1: to it to lean and that's because, Yeah, as two guys,
Speaker 1: you talk about saving money a lot our go to
Speaker 1: money saving advice when it comes to paying less for
Speaker 1: food is shop at aldi like that I meant advice.
Speaker 1: We're very good starting point, but we do not have
Speaker 1: the depth of knowledge that you have. So but the
Speaker 1: first question we ask every guest who comes on the
Speaker 1: podcast is you know, Matt and I we drink a
Speaker 1: craft beer on every episode because it's something that we
Speaker 1: spend a lot of money on in the here and
Speaker 1: now while we're trying to be intentional about saving uh
Speaker 1: and investing for the future. What is that for you?
Speaker 1: What's your splurge? It's a really good question, and I
Speaker 1: have a few different directions I could go on this,
Speaker 1: but I think I want to say fundamentally, it's like
Speaker 1: splurge on something that makes your life better, that is
Speaker 1: a quality of life thing, and that's definitely where I like.
Speaker 1: I'm recording this in my bedroom and I'm thinking about
Speaker 1: how important like having a comfortable, cozy bed is for me,
Speaker 1: and so we have I have nice sheets, and truly
Speaker 1: I cannot My husband doesn't understand this. He's like the
Speaker 1: sort of person who would just leave the bed like
Speaker 1: a mess all day and just like vaguely like grab
Speaker 1: the sheets and like kind of cocoon himself and go
Speaker 1: to sleep. And I know many people who are like
Speaker 1: that it is a style thing, though I think, um,
Speaker 1: there's so many people who are just like, what's the
Speaker 1: point of making your bed because you know you're just
Speaker 1: going to mess it up again. And while I sort
Speaker 1: of intellectually understand that my body like gets such profound
Speaker 1: pleasure out of sliding into like a smooth, crisp sheet situation,
Speaker 1: it just like I feel like my whole body can
Speaker 1: just relax and it primes me to calm down and
Speaker 1: go to sleep, and sleep, like sleep for me is
Speaker 1: quality of life, like almost the number one thing. Like
Speaker 1: if there's anything that I can do, whether it's you know,
Speaker 1: yoga before bed, whether it's um, you know, trying to
Speaker 1: get enough excers of all of these things, you know,
Speaker 1: drinking less alcohol. I can think of all these sort
Speaker 1: of good habits that I have been trying to cultivate,
Speaker 1: and every time I add sort of a new good habit,
Speaker 1: almost always it comes down to, like that helps me
Speaker 1: sleep better. And so truly it's like really that simple,
Speaker 1: and um, so my bed beings of this really beautiful
Speaker 1: place is super important for my quality of life. So
Speaker 1: I think that's that's sort of where my splurge comes from.
Speaker 1: It sounds like you guys really really enjoy the pleasure
Speaker 1: and connection you get from like having a good beer together,
Speaker 1: but it's not too close to bedtime, because, like you said,
Speaker 1: that can certainly disrupolute, disruptive. We drink while we podcast
Speaker 1: in the afternoon, Lee, and I'm going to share a
Speaker 1: quick story with you. You're probably gonna cringe when I
Speaker 1: say this, but the mattress that my wife and I
Speaker 1: sleep on that we love was a free mattress that
Speaker 1: we got online through Facebook Marketplace. Hebody was giving away
Speaker 1: and we actually we were like, you know what, it's
Speaker 1: time to grow up, you know, and so we're like, okay,
Speaker 1: let's order one of these mattresses that shows up in
Speaker 1: the mail. We got it, you know, it deflated, took
Speaker 1: twenty four hours at the spring foam combo. We did
Speaker 1: not like it, and so we were actually one of
Speaker 1: the folks who took advantage of that and send it
Speaker 1: back and we pulled down that old Queen Spring mattress
Speaker 1: down from the attic. But like you said, if it
Speaker 1: works for us, I guess that's all. That's the only
Speaker 1: measure we need. Yeah, I really think that, Like, I
Speaker 1: think no judgment about how you got it, Like, if
Speaker 1: it truly feels better for you, that's the only thing
Speaker 1: that could possibly matter. Oh and real quick too. You know,
Speaker 1: so Joe and I we love to ride bikes. We
Speaker 1: read that before you moved to New York City you
Speaker 1: used to ride your bike everywhere. Do you get out
Speaker 1: in your bike much these days there in New York? Yeah.
Speaker 1: You know, it's funny because my husband, I think, frankly,
Speaker 1: as part of trying to distract himself from the state
Speaker 1: of the world these last few weeks, has been buying
Speaker 1: bike parts online obsessively, probably in you know, it's a
Speaker 1: careful way that you guys enjoyed doing too, and been
Speaker 1: just fixing up both of our bikes in small ways.
Speaker 1: And he had kind of finished up making these few
Speaker 1: small improvement you know, changing to new tires, um, fixing
Speaker 1: the hub, that kind of thing. And um, we went
Speaker 1: for a ride yesterday. It was sort of nice enough
Speaker 1: out that we went for a little family right and
Speaker 1: it felt fabulous. Um, but just family bike riding, right,
Speaker 1: so good. My daughter was like, I don't like the
Speaker 1: wind in my face, but she could deal for twenty minutes. Yes,
Speaker 1: and you know what, they're going to complain even at home.
Speaker 1: So uh, let's let's move on. Let's talk about food
Speaker 1: and eating well on a budget. And yeah, I feel
Speaker 1: like it always feels like fancy dishes that you'd get
Speaker 1: while eating out or something they're made from these expensive
Speaker 1: cuts of meat, or they've got like trouffles shredded all
Speaker 1: over the top and something like that. Um, but what
Speaker 1: you're saying is that you don't have to have a
Speaker 1: big budget. That's not important when it comes to eating
Speaker 1: great food. Like why do you say that? Because it's true,
Speaker 1: there's so many of our favorite I mean, you said
Speaker 1: what you just said is true. And at the same time,
Speaker 1: I would bring some reality to that statement that many
Speaker 1: of the things that you're going to order out are
Speaker 1: also actually going to be quite inexpensive. But in terms
Speaker 1: of the ingredients that are used, Like, for example, like
Speaker 1: let's say a fancy pasta dish that has bacon and
Speaker 1: egg as the base, you're only using like maybe one
Speaker 1: or two strips of bacon and a couple of eggs,
Speaker 1: and the pasta itself is really inexpensive, but it's sort
Speaker 1: of the technique, the way that it's being put together.
Speaker 1: That is sort of where the value comes in. And
Speaker 1: so when you can learn some of these techniques, which
Speaker 1: you know, we say the word technique, you might think,
Speaker 1: oh my gosh, that's gonna be hard. Doesn't mean it's hard,
Speaker 1: It just means it's a couple of steps that you
Speaker 1: just need to do and think through, and um, you
Speaker 1: can have these really beautiful meals that can seem really
Speaker 1: fancy just in your own kitchen really quite easily. So
Speaker 1: I guess what I always really say is learning to
Speaker 1: like getting sort of a basic idea of cooking, and
Speaker 1: I really do mean cooking sort of as opposed to baking.
Speaker 1: Cooking like learning how to you know, say, makeup pasta dish,
Speaker 1: make a grilled cheese sandwich, like literally, like these really
Speaker 1: really simple sorts of meals, make an egg dish for yourself,
Speaker 1: how to saute vegetables, um, what to do with frozen peas,
Speaker 1: you know, when to put it into the meal so
Speaker 1: that they won't still be cold. Like these sorts of
Speaker 1: simple techniques they can just lend such tremendous quality to
Speaker 1: your everyday life and not at really all that higher
Speaker 1: cost and I think and again people think like, oh gosh, yeah,
Speaker 1: we all know that learning to cook would like make
Speaker 1: my life better. But I think what most people maybe
Speaker 1: don't realize is just how quickly you can experience much
Speaker 1: much better meals. Um Like, just learn a couple of
Speaker 1: really simple things, learn one or two recipes really well,
Speaker 1: things that you really really enjoy, and you can start
Speaker 1: seeing tremendous sort of improvement in the quality of your meals.
Speaker 1: And by that I really mean the quality of the
Speaker 1: of how much you can enjoy your meals and look
Speaker 1: forward to it. Yeah, I mean, I think when you
Speaker 1: know what you're doing right, when you have some knowledge
Speaker 1: as to the strokes you're making with your knife, or
Speaker 1: like you you know, you're talking about technique here. It's
Speaker 1: sort of like when you go on like go to
Speaker 1: a museum, and if you're going through with a tour,
Speaker 1: like a guided tour or even like the audio tour,
Speaker 1: you're going to appreciate it so much more when you
Speaker 1: understand what it is that you're looking at. And I
Speaker 1: think the same can be true with your food. I
Speaker 1: love that you talked about the difference between cooking and baking,
Speaker 1: because yeah, we've talked about this on the show before,
Speaker 1: how so much of life is it's more cooking, it's
Speaker 1: not baking. It's not these precise steps that you follow.
Speaker 1: And you know, for for those of us who do
Speaker 1: feel like, you know, a duck out of water, who
Speaker 1: weren't taught kitchen skills, what are some specifics how do
Speaker 1: we get a handle on the basics in order to
Speaker 1: feel comfortable cooking well at home? What are some of
Speaker 1: those basic techniques that you think are necessary in order
Speaker 1: to feel confident? So, and I hate to do this,
Speaker 1: but it really is. It is sort of an individual thing.
Speaker 1: So it's not like okay, master, there's two and you're
Speaker 1: good to go. Um. Of course you could try something
Speaker 1: like that, but I think where when we're talking about confidence,
Speaker 1: it really is about thinking about yourself, like your personal taste,
Speaker 1: and trying to think about, like, what are five dishes
Speaker 1: that I really enjoy when I eat out, say, and
Speaker 1: maybe even thinking like what is sort of a salad
Speaker 1: that I really like? What is a pasta dish that
Speaker 1: I really like? What is a stew or a soup
Speaker 1: that I really like? And starting at that place and
Speaker 1: just learning how to make one or two of those things. Um,
Speaker 1: can be just an incredible confidence builder, and I think
Speaker 1: really putting yourself into the mix, truly thinking about your taste.
Speaker 1: I started this by saying bacon and an egg pasta.
Speaker 1: I guess what I really meant was like a carbonara.
Speaker 1: Like if you see that on your menu, I think
Speaker 1: you're like, oh carbonara, who hoo hoo, fancy fanacy. Literally
Speaker 1: bacon and egg pasta. Like it's so simple and it's
Speaker 1: just a matter of like how you put those things together.
Speaker 1: We'll often have those types of ingredients in our pantry
Speaker 1: and our fridge already. If you're a vegetarian, you know,
Speaker 1: you may want to skip the bacon. If you're wanting
Speaker 1: to add in more vegetable as you could do you know,
Speaker 1: it's still quite classic to add peas, or to add
Speaker 1: some other kind of veggies or herbs or something like that.
Speaker 1: You can add some lemon zest. These are ways to
Speaker 1: kind of bring in your own taste to it. But
Speaker 1: I think so much of it is just taking is
Speaker 1: a knowing that it is good and important. I think
Speaker 1: to take your own personal taste into account and to
Speaker 1: start where you are and then be really really patient
Speaker 1: and gentle with yourself as you get going, um, celebrate
Speaker 1: every meal you make, celebrate your effort, and appreciate yourself
Speaker 1: for the effort that you're making on your own behalf,
Speaker 1: and just like know that it's for everyone. It is
Speaker 1: hard to try something new, and so don't have that
Speaker 1: kind of self talk that I think so many of
Speaker 1: us grow up with inside our heads, which is sort
Speaker 1: of like, oh, I should be better at this already,
Speaker 1: and like that's so embarrassing that I don't know how
Speaker 1: to do that, like all of that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: Try to like really leave that in the background and
Speaker 1: celebrate yourself that you know, no matter how small, even
Speaker 1: if it's just making toast, just appreciate the kindness of
Speaker 1: your intention as you make um these things for yourself,
Speaker 1: and that will kind of fuel you through. And it's
Speaker 1: not that it's making too big a deal out of it,
Speaker 1: or letting yourself off the hook or any of that.
Speaker 1: It's being truthful because it is a really good thing
Speaker 1: to make these things. And making any sort of habit
Speaker 1: change in our lives is hard. Like we are built
Speaker 1: as creatures of habit, we really are. And it's you know,
Speaker 1: for all kinds of important reasons that our ancestors millions
Speaker 1: of years ago, um needed. But so making changes in
Speaker 1: our lives is unsettling, and so we need to actually
Speaker 1: so poured ourselves through these experiences. And we can support
Speaker 1: ourselves not by diminishing our efforts and making fun of
Speaker 1: ourselves when we don't do well, but really celebrating ourselves.
Speaker 1: And we do make make mistakes and when it does
Speaker 1: work out not so well, to kind of roll with
Speaker 1: it and go like, yeah, that makes sense. It's part
Speaker 1: of learning, and you need to hold yourself to a
Speaker 1: realistic standard and that is what will sort of allow
Speaker 1: you to succeed in the long term totally. And I mean,
Speaker 1: and that's so much of what you focus on within
Speaker 1: you know, within your new book. I love how you're
Speaker 1: talking about gravitating towards the dishes that you enjoy. How
Speaker 1: that's a great piece of start when it comes to
Speaker 1: how you want to improve in the kitchen. You've you know,
Speaker 1: shared before as well, just some of this, you know,
Speaker 1: some of the specific tools and like you mentioned, you
Speaker 1: know a second ago, you said lemon zest and that
Speaker 1: reminded me that you talk about the microplane specifically and
Speaker 1: how this is just this really affordable tool that has
Speaker 1: so much utility, explain to folks why they need to
Speaker 1: have that. Specifically, I love a microplane because, yeah, lemon
Speaker 1: zest lines really any kind of citrus, the zest is
Speaker 1: such as I just it makes me actually so happy.
Speaker 1: I love when people have never really used zest before
Speaker 1: and I can introduce it to them for the first time,
Speaker 1: because it's so magical. If you're someone who likes cocktails
Speaker 1: as well, you might be familiar with sort of the
Speaker 1: beauty of the twist in the cocktail um and it's yeah, yeah, right,
Speaker 1: So like using the the outside of citrus. It has
Speaker 1: this incredible, incredibly strong aroma and flavor because it's basically
Speaker 1: orange oil or lemon oil or lime oil that is
Speaker 1: inside that um the zest on the outside, and so
Speaker 1: you add just a tiny bit of this and you're
Speaker 1: able to scrape it off just so easily, so quickly
Speaker 1: with the microplane, and you can add that kind of bright,
Speaker 1: acidic flavor to anything. My friends kind of make fun
Speaker 1: of me quite often when I'm cooking with them, or
Speaker 1: if I'm over at their house and they're cooking somewhere, like,
Speaker 1: should I add lemons ust to this leen? It's like,
Speaker 1: because because I always do that. And obviously we talked
Speaker 1: about money, and I mean I love the fact that
Speaker 1: you focused on that so much because I mean that's
Speaker 1: such an affordable tool, you know, Like we're not talking
Speaker 1: about you, you know, folks going out and buying like
Speaker 1: an air fire. I don't know how much an air
Speaker 1: fire cost, but I know they're hot and people love them.
Speaker 1: But I got a feeling they take up a lot
Speaker 1: of counterspace. That's true. It's true. Well, and when when
Speaker 1: it comes to money land part of the reason that
Speaker 1: you're on our radar, And like, we want to talk
Speaker 1: about your new book good Enough more as well, but
Speaker 1: like you wrote a cookbook initially, Like your claim to
Speaker 1: fame was the cookbook Good and Cheap, which was released
Speaker 1: in about eating well on just four dollars a day.
Speaker 1: Like what made you feel compelled to write that in
Speaker 1: the first place? Um? And like, yeah, can you kind
Speaker 1: of give us a little bit of an idea of
Speaker 1: what your focus was in that one? Oh well, so
Speaker 1: that came out of my master's degree and food studies
Speaker 1: at m y U, And it was just kind of
Speaker 1: looking at the state of things, Um, this awareness that
Speaker 1: you know they are huge, huge millions of people, um
Speaker 1: in the US alone who are living on a budget
Speaker 1: about four dollars a day or less. Um. That's sort
Speaker 1: of anyone who qualifies for food stamps, UH is living
Speaker 1: on our snap as it's called now, but I know
Speaker 1: most people still think of it as food stamps. The
Speaker 1: food stamps program. It's approximately four dollars per person per day,
Speaker 1: which is very little money. And I know, you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of issues with that, and you know,
Speaker 1: there are a lot of a lot of people who
Speaker 1: are always saying like, oh, nobody can eat healthy on that,
Speaker 1: nobody can eat enough on that. And you know, I'm
Speaker 1: not really here to say whether or not, like on
Speaker 1: a moral level, whether it's okay that there's literally millions
Speaker 1: of people living on four dollars a day and we
Speaker 1: say that that's okay. I personally don't think that that's
Speaker 1: enough and that that's okay UM. But what I wanted
Speaker 1: to do was meet this reality where it was and offer,
Speaker 1: you know, my own sort of knowledge as a home
Speaker 1: cook who knows that you know, uh, you can make
Speaker 1: really really delicious food, um for very little money if
Speaker 1: you kind of have some technique, if you have the
Speaker 1: confidence to put things together, that there's just so much
Speaker 1: more that can be done, and seeing the kinds of
Speaker 1: resources that were available to people, I just felt like
Speaker 1: they were really lacking, um in particular, they were lacking
Speaker 1: in uh, sort of the addition of fruits and vegetables
Speaker 1: and sort of anything interesting. They were often these sort
Speaker 1: of there's this attitude which you know is always there,
Speaker 1: I think in American culture around sort of poverty and
Speaker 1: not having enough. There's a sort of l well, you
Speaker 1: must have done something to deserve this, This must be
Speaker 1: kind of your fault, and and the often the resources
Speaker 1: really reflected that. It was like, you can have this
Speaker 1: three times photocopied church basement, you know, cookbook that I
Speaker 1: found at a garage sale, and you should feel really
Speaker 1: lucky that I'm letting you have this was sort of
Speaker 1: the attitude. And to me, it was like I wanted
Speaker 1: to create a resource and something that was beautiful and appealing,
Speaker 1: like any other lovely cookbook out there, but that just
Speaker 1: happened to be at a price point that could um
Speaker 1: could work for many people. And so that you know,
Speaker 1: because I also know that many people are walking into
Speaker 1: into bookstores and seeing these cookbooks and feeling left out
Speaker 1: and going like, well, I can't possibly even afford that,
Speaker 1: so why would I even try? So I wanted to
Speaker 1: be really clear that cooking absolutely is affordable, um, and
Speaker 1: sort of have that as a starting point. And and
Speaker 1: you know, there's also this like belief that you can't
Speaker 1: eat sort of healthy generally, like a healthy food, um
Speaker 1: for a little because healthy means like green juice and
Speaker 1: all these kinds of very expensive things. And you know,
Speaker 1: healthy just means like eating a variety of fruits and vegetables,
Speaker 1: and and or eating a variety of foods generally, and
Speaker 1: trying to eat more fruits and vegetables. And certainly it's
Speaker 1: true that you know, at this time of year, buying
Speaker 1: a few grams of raspberries is hideously expensive. But yes, exactly,
Speaker 1: but like, but there are ways to shop and and
Speaker 1: to cook that can sort of maximize your budget and
Speaker 1: still like to eat eat well. And something that you
Speaker 1: said at the beginning, which was sort of staying away
Speaker 1: from those like expensive cuts of meat and sort of
Speaker 1: more expensive dairy and using um, those more expensive items
Speaker 1: like um, you know, butter and cream and expensive cheeses
Speaker 1: and expensive meats, and using smaller quantities of those um
Speaker 1: alongside like the cheaper stables like rice or pasta or
Speaker 1: beans or things like that that we can, uh, you
Speaker 1: can still have just fabulous, fabulous food. So for me,
Speaker 1: it was you know, wanting to share that and um
Speaker 1: and wanting to sort of in my own small, small way,
Speaker 1: try to just like right, attempt to right this wrong
Speaker 1: that I saw out there, and and to invite just
Speaker 1: more people into the kitchen who may have felt left out.
Speaker 1: I always want to just be welcoming. I think that's
Speaker 1: like fundamentally where I always at is like welcome, welcome,
Speaker 1: welcome as many people into the process of cooking, because
Speaker 1: I think it's not just wonderful to eat well, but
Speaker 1: I think the actual process of cooking is really empowering
Speaker 1: and confidence building. Yeah, it's a good skill to have,
Speaker 1: and to know that you can feed yourself and feed
Speaker 1: yourself well feels good and it brings the light. Yes,
Speaker 1: and it also helps foster community. I mean, there's so
Speaker 1: many good things about cooking. And yeah, I love that
Speaker 1: you say you don't have to eat junk food if
Speaker 1: you don't have much money, like there's a way, And
Speaker 1: you also give people the free resource the downloadable the
Speaker 1: downloadable copy of that book. Um, Lean, we want to
Speaker 1: talk about more. We want to talk about cooking when
Speaker 1: you have kids. We want to talk about food waste,
Speaker 1: we want to talk about leftovers. We'll get to some
Speaker 1: of our questions on that front with you right after
Speaker 1: this break. Alright, we're back. We're talking about how we
Speaker 1: can cook home cooked meals that are affordable, that are
Speaker 1: good enough. We're talking with Lean Brown, and we were
Speaker 1: just talking about her previous book, Good and Cheap and
Speaker 1: Lee and one of the things actually that you do
Speaker 1: in that cookbook as well as you put the total
Speaker 1: costs for the for the dishes as well as the
Speaker 1: cost per serving, which I thought was was genius as well.
Speaker 1: But let's talk now about your new book, good Enough.
Speaker 1: I'm curious to know more about this new book, Like
Speaker 1: it does have some recipes, but it also is it's
Speaker 1: kind of part memoir, you know, with like a you
Speaker 1: know a little dash of self care advice in there.
Speaker 1: And so what made you write this book that sort
Speaker 1: of defies literary genres? Yeah, well it didn't. It actually
Speaker 1: came a lot out of my experiences with Good and Cheap.
Speaker 1: I had this sort of in build assumption when I
Speaker 1: created good and cheap, and then when it ended up
Speaker 1: being this sort of surprise success and UM. I ended
Speaker 1: up touring all over the country, being in so many
Speaker 1: different rooms, talking to so many different people, both in
Speaker 1: person people and UM people emailed me people UM contacted
Speaker 1: me in so many different ways. Sometimes it was like, oh,
Speaker 1: how do you cook greens or something, but often it
Speaker 1: was What I found was people were more likely to
Speaker 1: be sharing their personal stories. Often it was growing up
Speaker 1: without a lot of money or having or being in
Speaker 1: some way affected by this, you know, working with people
Speaker 1: who are struggling to UM feed themselves now or feed
Speaker 1: their family, or who have goals that they're not meeting
Speaker 1: and they're frustrated, or who hate cooking but want to
Speaker 1: love it, you know, all these kinds of experiences. And
Speaker 1: what I began to notice on what I just found
Speaker 1: that I couldn't look away from, was that so many
Speaker 1: people it didn't it wasn't even about the cost of things.
Speaker 1: It was about something deeper. It was about feeling like
Speaker 1: they weren't worth the effort, Like at some level there
Speaker 1: was some shame that had gone so deep inside that
Speaker 1: it was really hard to come out from that you know,
Speaker 1: I'm not a good enough cook, I'm not a good
Speaker 1: enough person to even work on this for or um,
Speaker 1: there's so much of this kind of pain or this
Speaker 1: sort of personalite, like there's something wrong with me that
Speaker 1: I don't know how to do this, that I have
Speaker 1: so far kind of failed at this. These all these
Speaker 1: just really really harsh beliefs that people were holding about themselves.
Speaker 1: And there, you know, where there were times where I
Speaker 1: was so privileged to be in a position, I think,
Speaker 1: to soothe some of those painful feelings and maybe to
Speaker 1: create the beginnings of some healing. But I couldn't look
Speaker 1: away from us also because I, you know, I related
Speaker 1: to it, and and I found that I was reflected
Speaker 1: in my own journey of cooking, but also just in
Speaker 1: life in general of you know, dealing with anxiety and
Speaker 1: depression for much of my life. And so I found
Speaker 1: that I wanted to share the way that cooking kind
Speaker 1: of helped me figure myself out, help me find confidence,
Speaker 1: help me find creativity, and the way that I use
Speaker 1: it as sort of a deep kind of self care,
Speaker 1: not just as like oh I can make myself something delicious,
Speaker 1: but something where I can notice, like I can rely
Speaker 1: on myself. I can I can learn to trust myself,
Speaker 1: I can do all these things. And so it started
Speaker 1: out as as something where I was like, oh, I'm
Speaker 1: going to tell the stories of all these folks that
Speaker 1: I met. And then I realized over time that that
Speaker 1: wasn't going to work and I had to do the
Speaker 1: vulnerable thing and tell my own story, and that was
Speaker 1: the only way it was going to work. So it
Speaker 1: took quite a few years because I really resisted that. Um,
Speaker 1: I didn't want to do it, but I'm so glad
Speaker 1: I did because I think that what I realized in
Speaker 1: over time once I finally broke down and stopped resisting,
Speaker 1: was you know, any piece of art, any book, anything
Speaker 1: that has ever really helped me or made me feel
Speaker 1: comforted or seen, has always come from somebody else sharing
Speaker 1: their truth honestly. And so I realized that I need
Speaker 1: to do that too. Yeah, well, I appreciate it. And
Speaker 1: you you give a lot of personal anecdotes which helped
Speaker 1: cooking feel a little more relatable because you see a cookbook,
Speaker 1: it's like it's like the ten commandments down from on high,
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, this is what the wise person
Speaker 1: who knows all tells to me the p on who
Speaker 1: knows nothing, But this is very like a give and take,
Speaker 1: which I appreciate. And and at one point in the book,
Speaker 1: you there's this quote that stuck out to me. You
Speaker 1: said cooking is great, but eating is essential. And that
Speaker 1: was particularly in a section where you recommended a lot
Speaker 1: of really basic dishes like low effort meals. So can
Speaker 1: you talk to us about low effort meals and kind
Speaker 1: of why we should maybe be attempting those first or
Speaker 1: attempting those more often. Yeah, that was I think my
Speaker 1: like me and my twenties would be like no m
Speaker 1: about all of that. Um. I was always like such
Speaker 1: an overachiever. For the longest time, I didn't think it
Speaker 1: was because, you know, cooking was like sort of the
Speaker 1: only space where I was like feeling pleasure and creativity
Speaker 1: and all that kind of thing. And now I think
Speaker 1: part of it is becoming a parent, part of it
Speaker 1: is just getting a little wiser, getting a little bit
Speaker 1: more honest. But life is going to Absolutely it is
Speaker 1: an unassailable reality that there will be so many days
Speaker 1: we're just getting some food in your body is the
Speaker 1: best you can do. Like that's a fact, no matter
Speaker 1: you know, they will whether lucky enough to not have
Speaker 1: those days very often. You know, tragedy will happen, hardship
Speaker 1: will happen, just too much stress, just not having enough time,
Speaker 1: all these sorts of even you know, even not the
Speaker 1: sort of losing people, like, not that kind of level
Speaker 1: of pain, but just sort of the everyday pain they happen.
Speaker 1: And so you've got to have cheese toast, you know,
Speaker 1: you've gotta have cereal, You've gotta like it has to
Speaker 1: be okay to eat crackers and cheese, it has to
Speaker 1: be okay to eat like just a handful of almonds.
Speaker 1: It has to be okay, um, to just be putting
Speaker 1: nourishment into your body. And so I wanted to And
Speaker 1: I don't think that's something that people who write cookbooks
Speaker 1: usually say. And that's totally understandable, because the point of
Speaker 1: a cookbook is often to give people like something that
Speaker 1: is a little bit more elevated to create. But what
Speaker 1: I realized again with all the folks who reached out
Speaker 1: to me in the past, was that people are longing
Speaker 1: to know that it's okay to eat that way. Like
Speaker 1: I can't tell you how many emails I got about
Speaker 1: there's a set in good and cheap called stuff on toast,
Speaker 1: and it's exactly what it sounds like. It's like, take
Speaker 1: some leftovers, take some this takes some that um takes
Speaker 1: some like wilted spinach, and throw it in there and
Speaker 1: put it on some toast and you have a meal.
Speaker 1: And I truly got so many emails from people saying, gosh,
Speaker 1: I feel so validated, like to know it's okay. Yes exactly.
Speaker 1: It's like what a weird position to be in that
Speaker 1: I can kind of give people permission to eat in
Speaker 1: a way that is working for them, and that takes
Speaker 1: that guilt that they're feeling, this idea that they're not
Speaker 1: doing enough that you know, whether it's you know, Instagram
Speaker 1: or the sort of food culture creates this image that
Speaker 1: is completely unattainable for most of us the time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and again, like I don't think there's anything. There's not
Speaker 1: nobody's like trying to do anything bad. It's like everyone's
Speaker 1: just trying to sell, like make my thing. It looks nice,
Speaker 1: But what it does over time if you don't have
Speaker 1: um sort of some grounding in like eating, you know,
Speaker 1: being in a family where they cooked relatively often and Um,
Speaker 1: you were fed in a particular way, and you know
Speaker 1: what's normal that you know, maybe once or twice a
Speaker 1: week you have a meal that looks kind of like that, um,
Speaker 1: and that's what's normal, rather than for every meal you
Speaker 1: can believe that like, oh everyone else is eating in
Speaker 1: this incredible way. Everything looks great. I am, you know,
Speaker 1: such a failure. And when you feel like a failure,
Speaker 1: you don't want to try because you feel like you've
Speaker 1: already failed. So it's to me things like this create
Speaker 1: the chance for people to actually dive in and feel successful,
Speaker 1: which is literally it, right, Like I think we all
Speaker 1: know that sort of boring like thing that everyone talks
Speaker 1: about this time of year, just like just showing up
Speaker 1: is most of the battle. But it's true, And so
Speaker 1: showing up in the kitchen, even if it's just to
Speaker 1: grab a handful of nuts and not then saying like,
Speaker 1: oh my god, I'm such a loser because I just
Speaker 1: ate crackers and cheese this week. It's like, well, what
Speaker 1: happened this week? Why did you only eat crackers and cheese?
Speaker 1: Is that really because you're a loser? Is it? Because
Speaker 1: this it was really intense and you don't have you know,
Speaker 1: enough stuff around right now and you weren't able to
Speaker 1: get to the grocery store, and like, that's okay. We
Speaker 1: don't need to like internalize these things as problems with ourselves,
Speaker 1: but rather problems with our circumstances. Yeah, and you hinted
Speaker 1: at this, but you had a baby. You've got a
Speaker 1: daughter now that's you know, pretty young, and so that
Speaker 1: has an impact on the amount of time that you're
Speaker 1: able to dedicate towards food. And one of the things
Speaker 1: in your your new cookbook here good Enough, is that
Speaker 1: I love how you put the t l d R
Speaker 1: the too Long Didn't Read at the top, which it's
Speaker 1: just like a one since its summary, because it quickly
Speaker 1: gives you an idea of what this recipe is going
Speaker 1: to entail. But then once you do have a level
Speaker 1: of comfort where you know you've got some chops, you
Speaker 1: know how to handle yourself in the kitchen, you can
Speaker 1: kind of quickly look at some of those t LDRs
Speaker 1: and they just kind of know what to do already
Speaker 1: and you don't need to redress. And I found that incredibly.
Speaker 1: That was just yeah, that was just really cool to
Speaker 1: see something and to quickly do you feel good about
Speaker 1: yourself almost like it's likely I do kind of know
Speaker 1: how to cook it exact that is basic enough for
Speaker 1: dummy like me. Well, and that's what I love about
Speaker 1: doing something like that, because to me, it's like, fundamentally
Speaker 1: that's just a shame remover, not only in terms of
Speaker 1: just noticing like remember, you know, it looks like it's
Speaker 1: sixteen steps, but it's like cut it up, put it
Speaker 1: in a pan, and he wait till brown put it
Speaker 1: in a bowl at the end, Like that's so much
Speaker 1: of what we're doing. But um, it's sort of like
Speaker 1: we give these intricate steps so that you can really
Speaker 1: have success, so you can understand the why of everything.
Speaker 1: But fundamentally, that's all we're doing. And so I think
Speaker 1: sometimes taking that preciousness away can just remind um the
Speaker 1: reader like oh yeah, this is actually really doable. And
Speaker 1: then the other thing is so many people, myself absolutely included.
Speaker 1: Even as a recipe um writer, I don't read the
Speaker 1: recipes most of the time, you know, or like not
Speaker 1: before I do it, even though you should, of course,
Speaker 1: like you really should read it all the way through,
Speaker 1: not because like that's the good girl thing to do
Speaker 1: or whatever, but really because it will just give you
Speaker 1: a greater chance of success, a greater ability to be
Speaker 1: organized and feeling control as you're doing the recipe and
Speaker 1: feel calm during it. But I still don't. And so
Speaker 1: it was just a way of acknowledging most of us
Speaker 1: are not going to read it through before we start,
Speaker 1: and so here's a way, um that you can still
Speaker 1: sort of get the purpose of reading it through before
Speaker 1: you start ahead of time, UM, so that you can
Speaker 1: feel good and you don't have to and you don't
Speaker 1: feel again like ashamed like that I as the this
Speaker 1: big cookbook author from on high is judging and going, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm so offended you didn't read through my own recipe
Speaker 1: and respect my every word and suggestion. It's like, now
Speaker 1: we're all just human, Like I just want you to
Speaker 1: eat well. I want you to feel good about the
Speaker 1: food that you're making at home. I want you to
Speaker 1: know that your taste matters more than mine to you
Speaker 1: as well. That's the other thing that's really important to me,
Speaker 1: le And we are a money podcast, and you know,
Speaker 1: when we're talking about food, one of the big problems
Speaker 1: with when it comes to how much we spend on
Speaker 1: food is throwing food away and so yeah, what what
Speaker 1: should we be tossing items out that are past that
Speaker 1: used by date or how can we get better? I
Speaker 1: guess about using all the food that's on hand, not
Speaker 1: throwing stuff away, not forgetting about the leftovers that are
Speaker 1: in the back of the fridge, all that kind of stuff. Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: I think that is probably if you want to save
Speaker 1: money without making huge changes um to your lifestyle, really
Speaker 1: working on your waste management was probably like one of
Speaker 1: the quickest routes um. And but the ways to do
Speaker 1: that are like, yes, absolutely, you can use a ton
Speaker 1: of things are fine after they're um they're used by date,
Speaker 1: but it does depend on the thing, and so I
Speaker 1: it's almost like I don't know that we can get
Speaker 1: into that necessarily. Yeah. It's like you know, if there's
Speaker 1: like blue gunk on your yogurt, throw it out, um,
Speaker 1: you know. But like there's but there's all kinds of
Speaker 1: things like like especially canned items, things like that. They're
Speaker 1: often absolutely fine for long even I hate to say,
Speaker 1: but like almost years afterwards. Um. And same with there's
Speaker 1: all kinds of things. It's like if it isn't ransid,
Speaker 1: if it isn't moldy, like of course, you can use
Speaker 1: it and then when it comes to you know, something
Speaker 1: that I talked about a lot is like with fresh produce. Um.
Speaker 1: That's something that a lot of people struggle with waist
Speaker 1: around because there's a sort of phenomenon where you get excited,
Speaker 1: You're like, yeah, I'm going to cook all this stuff
Speaker 1: this week, and you buy maybe a little more than
Speaker 1: it's totally realistic, um, and then you end up with
Speaker 1: like welch spinach and like yucky tomatoes, and then you
Speaker 1: feel bad about it and you actually have a sception
Speaker 1: and uh, my new book Good Enough about sort of
Speaker 1: that like shame cycle of where you're like so embarrassed
Speaker 1: that you have the gross spinach that you ignore it
Speaker 1: for another week, like hoping cycle to avoid. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: I mean on that note, I mean I thought you
Speaker 1: you talked well about not only the foods that are
Speaker 1: going to keep well and the foods that probably don't
Speaker 1: do well as leftovers, but you gave some tips as
Speaker 1: well as two ways, like just different things we can
Speaker 1: do to make eating leftovers more successful. Uh do you
Speaker 1: mind sharing some of those? Sure? Absolutely so. And I
Speaker 1: have lots of this in Good and Cheap, which is
Speaker 1: freely available online too, especially for something like a stew
Speaker 1: or a soup, reusing it just in a slightly different way.
Speaker 1: Um often just after you make it, putting it directly
Speaker 1: in the freezer. Really, these are most of my tips
Speaker 1: are they're almost they're boring, but they're just about like,
Speaker 1: just be realistic and try to be consistent with yourself,
Speaker 1: um plan, try to like make realistic meal plans rather
Speaker 1: than these like pine in this guy like I'm gonna
Speaker 1: cook every single you know, three meals a day every
Speaker 1: day this week. It's like, is that really realistic? Especially
Speaker 1: we're in January now, and it's like people have all
Speaker 1: these New York resolutions and they're like, I'm going to
Speaker 1: be the best cook ever ever. It's just such a
Speaker 1: setup and the kind of breaks my heart because it's
Speaker 1: like then if you crash and burn at that, then
Speaker 1: you think like, oh my god, I could never do that.
Speaker 1: It's like, well, actually, if you just had a more
Speaker 1: realistic goal, you probably would be able to be consistent
Speaker 1: about it. And then the other thing is like with
Speaker 1: those wilted like the wilted situation, there's so many recipes
Speaker 1: where you can actually still use those things. You know,
Speaker 1: you maybe don't want to use like wilted spinach in
Speaker 1: a salad if you can use it in like a
Speaker 1: keish or um of course, like soups and stews and saute's.
Speaker 1: Like there's so many places where vegetables don't need to
Speaker 1: be perfectly fresh. Um. Even roasting vegetables um like like
Speaker 1: doing like a tray sort of bake in the oven.
Speaker 1: Those all can be fabulous ways to read it. So
Speaker 1: I think just like really trying to um, stay on
Speaker 1: top of that and and just being again being realistic
Speaker 1: with yourself doesn't mean giving up on yourself. It actually
Speaker 1: is like the better way to really like give yourself
Speaker 1: a chance of success. So saying like I'm gonna make
Speaker 1: three meals this week that have these fresh vegetables and
Speaker 1: I have a plan for them, and then you won't
Speaker 1: end up like with these things that that are wasted. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And you mean you gave some very just simple practical
Speaker 1: stuff to you. I mean, like you know, keeping your
Speaker 1: leftovers and clear containers so that you can actually see
Speaker 1: what's inside of them, or keeping all of the you know,
Speaker 1: the food that's that's ready for them. The glassock ones
Speaker 1: are so fabulous, like there and there you can clean
Speaker 1: them so easily. Um, you can. Everything looks nice in them,
Speaker 1: They look appealing. It reminds you that it's there. All
Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. Yeah, absolutely, well, all that like
Speaker 1: by behavioral science, you know where it's like keep your
Speaker 1: chocolate covered pretzels in the jars that you can't see through,
Speaker 1: so that you don't just eat those, and keep the yeah,
Speaker 1: the food that you want to snack on, the carrot
Speaker 1: sticks in in a clear glass jar exactly. Yeah. So
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, I was kind of asking about that
Speaker 1: because I I feel like I'm, you know, here at
Speaker 1: how the money at least I'm the king of leftovers. Leftovers.
Speaker 1: Uh and and that's a style thing, right absolutely, people
Speaker 1: is like a badge of monitor. Yeah, had it on
Speaker 1: my bicep. But yeah, we've got several other questions we
Speaker 1: want to get to including we we want to talk
Speaker 1: to you too about like meal delivery, your thoughts on that,
Speaker 1: getting out of ruts as well when it comes to cooking.
Speaker 1: We'll get to all that right after this break. All right,
Speaker 1: we're gonna keep this train rolling. We're talking with Lean
Speaker 1: Brown about making good food on less money. And uh, Lean,
Speaker 1: we we hinted at the beginning of the show where
Speaker 1: I mentioned that all these basically are quick go to
Speaker 1: answer for people who want to save money when it
Speaker 1: comes to cooking their own food. It seems like lean
Speaker 1: approved too, and that was like, up, what's your take
Speaker 1: on the low cost grocery stores? Okay, all right, yeah
Speaker 1: it's great. I mean all the is a great place.
Speaker 1: Not only it's like low cost, but it's also they
Speaker 1: have really good quality basics, which allows you to make
Speaker 1: really great quality food at home. Um okay, so full disclosure.
Speaker 1: I actually was like on an Aldi like board a
Speaker 1: few years ago. They like, I was consulting for something. Um,
Speaker 1: so I am a fan of theirs, and uh, I
Speaker 1: just yeah, I just I think they are doing a
Speaker 1: really good job. I think the way that they cut
Speaker 1: costs is usually like to reduce like packaging and to
Speaker 1: reduce the way that they advertise and things like that.
Speaker 1: So none of those actually affect the quality of food.
Speaker 1: You're still yeah, yeah, And because it's again it's like
Speaker 1: it's your water down milk or anything like that, you
Speaker 1: know exactly, no, not at all all of its cood quality.
Speaker 1: And because it's yeah it's Germans, like they have like
Speaker 1: that good German chocolate and stuff like that, like they
Speaker 1: have good food there, and so yeah, I I absolutely
Speaker 1: think that they're a wonderful place to start shopping and
Speaker 1: in addition to cooking for ourselves, which can be a challenge,
Speaker 1: you know, I can dundrum for many parents, uh that
Speaker 1: that they face our kids who are picky eaters, you know,
Speaker 1: like a lot of kids are begging for snacks, for
Speaker 1: the fruit roll ups and stuff that their friends have
Speaker 1: in their school lunches. How how do you deal or
Speaker 1: how do you recommend dealing with the best complaints because
Speaker 1: I assume your baby, your toddler isn't necessarily the same,
Speaker 1: of course, you know, that's always the funny thing, right,
Speaker 1: I think, And again I guess I'll go We'll go
Speaker 1: back to uh just normalizing, like it's just yeah, that's
Speaker 1: what kids are like, um, and that's okay. And so
Speaker 1: I think part of it is acceptance, like just sort
Speaker 1: of surrendering to when children are young, they are going
Speaker 1: to be what we call picky, which really is like
Speaker 1: again from a historical sort of evolutionary biology perspective, is
Speaker 1: completely appropriate. It's a real thing that they're experiencing their body.
Speaker 1: They have a very strong disgust response to um new
Speaker 1: foods in order for you know, millions of years ago
Speaker 1: or many many many millennia go protecting themselves from eating
Speaker 1: something poisonous um. And so these are like strong biological
Speaker 1: responses that they're having in their body and so on
Speaker 1: that note, Basically, what I always say is kind of
Speaker 1: like don't stress and don't try to fight it too much,
Speaker 1: because like then you can create like all this sort
Speaker 1: of misery around food and fighting that you don't that
Speaker 1: like it's just a losing battle. Um. So part of
Speaker 1: the acceptance and then and yeah, and just knowing that
Speaker 1: like you know, your kids probably gonna cry when you
Speaker 1: say no to the tenth threat of the day, and
Speaker 1: that that is also okay and um, and that for
Speaker 1: kids to want to eat mac and cheese every day
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you are a failure. It doesn't mean there's
Speaker 1: anything wrong with them. And it also doesn't mean that
Speaker 1: they're not going to eat a huge and wonderful variety
Speaker 1: of foods when they're older. And it might mean that
Speaker 1: you're making mac and cheese, you know, or that you
Speaker 1: are raising a survivor exactly that Yeah, like I know
Speaker 1: it sounds so silly, But the evolutionary biology piece I
Speaker 1: often do bring in because I think that parents forget
Speaker 1: like when the kid, you know, when you've had that
Speaker 1: like your kid tries something that they liked last week
Speaker 1: and then they get this like just repulsed look on
Speaker 1: their face. They're not faking it. It's like they're really
Speaker 1: having an experience in their body that is hard for
Speaker 1: them to control. Um, it's so it's not personal, but
Speaker 1: that's really hard. You know, it's hard when and especially
Speaker 1: for those of us who you know, preparing food for
Speaker 1: the people love is a way of expressing love, it
Speaker 1: can feel like a rejection when they don't, and especially
Speaker 1: because the other way we try to show love is
Speaker 1: by taking care of each other's body. So when you're
Speaker 1: trying to say be like we're putting peas in the
Speaker 1: mac and cheese and they're like never tossed across room. Um,
Speaker 1: it can hurt. But just know that that's normal and
Speaker 1: that it's not personal, and just that it's a process,
Speaker 1: and that nobody cookbook authors and you know, parenting advice
Speaker 1: columnists and all of us are struggling with the exact
Speaker 1: same thing. All right, I want to know your take
Speaker 1: on meal delivery services. It's one of those things that
Speaker 1: that my wife and I we've tried, and by my
Speaker 1: wife and I mean mostly she's like she's like wanted
Speaker 1: to do it, and we got just like a super
Speaker 1: cheap trial offer, right, and my wife really enjoyed it
Speaker 1: just having all the media ingredients shipped to the door,
Speaker 1: and then it was just incredibly easy to cook a
Speaker 1: meal and to get out of maybe the rut of
Speaker 1: some of the things that were used to cooking. But
Speaker 1: then on the regular basis, it's just it's prohibitively expensive.
Speaker 1: We thought it, but you know, what's your take on those?
Speaker 1: Because she felt great after doing it and the food
Speaker 1: was good too. Yes, So I think it has a
Speaker 1: time to place. And I think really what you said
Speaker 1: is my own experience and the experience of you know,
Speaker 1: many many people who I've I've talked with. I think
Speaker 1: it can be really nice thing to do for a
Speaker 1: period of time if you are feeling stuck in a
Speaker 1: rut or you're needing to kind of reconnect with cooking
Speaker 1: or reconnect with some new flavors. Um it can be
Speaker 1: a really great thing to try for a little while
Speaker 1: to bring something new into your life. Um, in a
Speaker 1: way that is, you know, not the pressure of like
Speaker 1: I'm going to create, like like get a new cookbook
Speaker 1: and cook it through it or something like that. It's
Speaker 1: something where it's all delivered to your door and all
Speaker 1: that kind of thing. It's contained someone else is doing
Speaker 1: the decision making. I think all of that is great.
Speaker 1: And yes, some of the trial offers also can be
Speaker 1: really reasonably priced. Um. But yeah, over time, the downsides
Speaker 1: are absolutely most of them. You don't do the same
Speaker 1: thing again, and so sometimes you know, if you're having
Speaker 1: it like five days a week, it can be it's
Speaker 1: just a lot of cooking, which sometimes can put you
Speaker 1: off a little bit, and it's not the same thing
Speaker 1: because you know, much as many of us are like
Speaker 1: I'm not at all a five year old, were also
Speaker 1: kind of five year old and the things we like
Speaker 1: sometimes again right, um, And so you're also talking about
Speaker 1: cost again. One of the best ways to have things
Speaker 1: below cost is to do repeat meals and to have
Speaker 1: sort of your rotation of favorites that you always have
Speaker 1: the ingredients for and that you can always make. Um.
Speaker 1: That is absolutely going to be a great way to
Speaker 1: save money in the long term. Um. So so Yeah, basically,
Speaker 1: I think it's a style thing. I think it's also
Speaker 1: something that's really lovely for parents. It's something I would
Speaker 1: love to give to like parents of a new baby
Speaker 1: w they have one baby, not when you have like
Speaker 1: a four year old too, or a two year old
Speaker 1: as well, but parents of a new baby sort of
Speaker 1: who have a little bit of time and you can
Speaker 1: hold like a newborn and like create some fresh food
Speaker 1: but have it all delivered in this sort of contained way, UM,
Speaker 1: but maybe have time to do like a half hour
Speaker 1: forty five minute UM kind of cook session. I think
Speaker 1: it can be really good. And then, of course the
Speaker 1: other criticism is most of them require tremendous amounts of
Speaker 1: packaging UM, which is wasted not only UM. And then
Speaker 1: there's the single serving nature of it, which again is
Speaker 1: all to the good in order to take UM, your
Speaker 1: sort of the mental energy that you would put into
Speaker 1: this is taken away by making it these lovely single
Speaker 1: serving things. But also it creates like an environmental waste issue,
Speaker 1: which I don't think it's really worth it in the end, unfortunately,
Speaker 1: and there are are places that are working on that,
Speaker 1: but I think even you know, the sort of best
Speaker 1: of the best really eco minded ones are still you know,
Speaker 1: it's still like it's a fridge box shows up at
Speaker 1: your every day at a front step, Like, is there
Speaker 1: a way to do that that isn't bad for the environment?
Speaker 1: So okay, speaking of the environment, meat protein, animal protein specifically,
Speaker 1: is this purely like an American obsession because not only
Speaker 1: is it happening, yeah, just the quantities that we consume
Speaker 1: animal proteins here in the States because obviously it's expensive, right,
Speaker 1: and it's something that we think a lot about when
Speaker 1: it comes to our meals. But you know, you also
Speaker 1: read the work of Mutner and just the amount of
Speaker 1: protein that other cultures eat has shown to to lead
Speaker 1: to even till the longer lives. And so I would
Speaker 1: love to hear your thoughts on the amount of animal
Speaker 1: protein that we can see. Yeah, for sure, I mean
Speaker 1: I would agree with that, Like it's we don't need
Speaker 1: as much as we think we do. It's just a
Speaker 1: myth um And yeah, this sort of it's almost like
Speaker 1: there's this American like I have a right to the
Speaker 1: amount of meat that I want kind of thing. And
Speaker 1: there's also been this cultural obsession for the last you know,
Speaker 1: many decades of trying to make meat cheaper and cheaper
Speaker 1: and cheaper, because there's just like fundamental human right to
Speaker 1: meet and it's like that doesn't actually make sense, and
Speaker 1: it's sort of this like false market that's been created,
Speaker 1: and it comes at tremendous costs to of course animal welfare,
Speaker 1: environment and actually I think our health as well. And
Speaker 1: it's it's not on only American accept obsession. I think
Speaker 1: it's anywhere where there's affluence in the world, which is
Speaker 1: all over the world, meat consumption, dairy consumption um is
Speaker 1: on the rise, and yeah, I think it's just sensible
Speaker 1: and good for us to bring some reality to that.
Speaker 1: Veganism and stuff is so much on the rise, especially
Speaker 1: amongst um younger, younger people, and I think that's wonderful
Speaker 1: for people to just have different meal patterns and to
Speaker 1: begin to uh just learn to eat in different ways
Speaker 1: and in different ways that sort of our body and
Speaker 1: so that we can all like as a culture begin
Speaker 1: to realize, like you don't have to eat a lot
Speaker 1: of meat in order to be an athlete or something.
Speaker 1: You can be like a really strict careful vegan and
Speaker 1: who's also gluten free and whatever, and like be a
Speaker 1: weightlifter and all these kinds of things. Um to just
Speaker 1: sort of take away some of these essentialist um sorts
Speaker 1: of notions. I think is always good, Like it's all
Speaker 1: about us as individuals and what we individually need. And Leeann,
Speaker 1: I gotta say, we love the work that you've been
Speaker 1: putting out there, and we love your mission to help
Speaker 1: people eat better on less money. And the fact that
Speaker 1: you also you put your money where your mouth is
Speaker 1: and you give away that cookbook that you wrote, which
Speaker 1: again will link to in the show notes. But yes,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining us working. How do
Speaker 1: money listeners find out more about you, about what you're
Speaker 1: up to and about your brand new cookbook? Awesome? Um, well,
Speaker 1: you can always go to Leanne Brown dot com. Just
Speaker 1: my name l E A and and E Brown just
Speaker 1: like the color my website. And then I'm on Instagram
Speaker 1: is kind of the only social media I do any
Speaker 1: anything regularly on Leanne E Brown there. Yeah, and I'll
Speaker 1: be just trying to get the word out about good enough.
Speaker 1: You can border it now, that would be wonderful. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm just I'm so honored anyone wants to engage with
Speaker 1: my recipes, with my writing. Um, it's an absolute joy
Speaker 1: to be here, and I'm excited to offer anything and
Speaker 1: reach out any time. If anything resonates with you, I'd
Speaker 1: love to hear it. All right, we'll be awaiting that
Speaker 1: Lean Brown TikTok page in your future, right about Leanne.
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for joining us today. Thank you
Speaker 1: so it's fun, all right, Matt gotta love that conversation
Speaker 1: with Lean Brown. I feel like she's part food therapist,
Speaker 1: part book author, so true how to money co host.
Speaker 1: I feel like even though she's you know, craft beer
Speaker 1: isn't necessarily her thing, I feel like she uh speaks
Speaker 1: about food and approaches it in the same way that
Speaker 1: we approach personal finance. Yes, And I think, well, you know,
Speaker 1: we've talked about this before, to that shame and guilt
Speaker 1: and how we need to avoid that when it comes
Speaker 1: to our money progress. And it's easy to compare ourselves
Speaker 1: to what other people have been able to accomplish, and
Speaker 1: if we do that, we're sending ourselves up for failure.
Speaker 1: And she's saying the same thing. With food, it's easier
Speaker 1: to see your neighbor and the nice meal they just
Speaker 1: turned out and maybe invited you over for, and you're like,
Speaker 1: why don't I do stuff like that? But that's not
Speaker 1: what you're comparing yourself to. That's unhealthy and you're not
Speaker 1: going to make much progress that way. But what was
Speaker 1: your big takeaway from this conversation with Lean, Well, I
Speaker 1: want to continue to pay you back off of this
Speaker 1: conversation because it does have to do with that shame
Speaker 1: and guilts and what she's what she was really getting at,
Speaker 1: I think with good Enough with this new cookbook is
Speaker 1: that there's a mindset shift that takes place with how
Speaker 1: it is that you cook. It's not necessarily about the
Speaker 1: nuts and bolts per se, It's not about you know,
Speaker 1: it is about some of the technique, but she's really
Speaker 1: speaking to the mindset shift that that takes place when
Speaker 1: you can think about cooking uh in a different way.
Speaker 1: And then she was talking about how that can empower
Speaker 1: you to make other positive changes in your life. And
Speaker 1: that is one what we try to do here on
Speaker 1: the show when it comes to our money. Yes, we
Speaker 1: do talk a lot about the nuts and bolts, just
Speaker 1: like yes, she does talk about how the microplane is
Speaker 1: a affordable, great sool to spice up your dishes and
Speaker 1: you know, great whatever, fine cheese you want over that, Carbonara,
Speaker 1: and we do talk about the specific things and laws
Speaker 1: that are changing and the techniques when it comes to
Speaker 1: how it is that you can save and invest your money,
Speaker 1: but so much of it has to do with how
Speaker 1: you mentally approach the money that you earn, the money
Speaker 1: that you spend, the money that you save. Because you
Speaker 1: can be doing all the correct things, but if you
Speaker 1: feel guilty about it, or if you feel that you're
Speaker 1: never making enough, those negative attitudes canna have a terrible
Speaker 1: effect on our ability to enjoy our money and to
Speaker 1: do things with it that we want to. So that
Speaker 1: one was a little more esoteric. I guess it wasn't
Speaker 1: that she gave the stamp of approval for all the
Speaker 1: But yet, what was your your big take away? Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I did appreciate that because we love all the and
Speaker 1: I'm glad she does too. But I think my big
Speaker 1: thing was really starts of the beginning of the conversation
Speaker 1: when she basically said, technique is greater than costly ingredients,
Speaker 1: and I think sometimes we think we need the finest
Speaker 1: stuff in order to cook well. And that was yeah,
Speaker 1: when we were talking about all that, she was saying
Speaker 1: that like the ingredients are great there. It's not like that.
Speaker 1: It's a frugal first is cheap and you're making a
Speaker 1: trade off and you're getting the cheap stuff at all
Speaker 1: the and you're like, well, is it worth paying less?
Speaker 1: And those ingredients inferior quality are good enough? Yes they are.
Speaker 1: They're they're very good ingredients. She's not telling us to
Speaker 1: go to Whole Foods or whatever, you know, super high
Speaker 1: and local grocery that you have wherever you live. Just
Speaker 1: learning a couple of basic techniques trying out. I think
Speaker 1: starting with some of those you know, low effort meals
Speaker 1: that she that she describes in this Newest cookebook, are
Speaker 1: are great ways to kind of get the ball rolling,
Speaker 1: because yeah, you don't have to go get the nicest stuff.
Speaker 1: Like I was just at Costco the other day, Matt,
Speaker 1: like I am, and there were I realized Ribby steaks
Speaker 1: were double the price that they were fifteen months ago,
Speaker 1: like double for real, And I was like, I'm not
Speaker 1: eating Ribby like these days. Like it's a it's a
Speaker 1: very very like once you hear treat typically maybe twice um,
Speaker 1: but I'm like, well, I'm probably for going Ribbi for
Speaker 1: the foreseeable future until those prices start to come back down.
Speaker 1: And and that's the kind of thing though, it is.
Speaker 1: It's like there's ways to cook delicious meals that don't
Speaker 1: involve twenty dollar pound Rabbi exactly. No, I love it, man,
Speaker 1: all right, let's go ahead and shift gears. Get back
Speaker 1: to the beer that you and I enjoyed during this episode.
Speaker 1: This was a stout that was barrel aged by our
Speaker 1: friend Jess uh and he and his friends brew under
Speaker 1: the name Easy Chair Brewing Garage. What were your thoughts
Speaker 1: on this beer? Alright? So I love that it was
Speaker 1: a barrel aged town because it had some of that
Speaker 1: I think he said Woodford Reserve barres. I forget what
Speaker 1: he said. Maybe was um trace ok alright, so yeah
Speaker 1: it had it had some of that whiskey note on
Speaker 1: the finish. But at the same time, it was low
Speaker 1: a bv. It's like six percent, he told me. And
Speaker 1: so it's this nice, But usually a barrel aged sounds
Speaker 1: like mr boozy, because I don't know, does it actually
Speaker 1: pick up some alcohol, you know, like from the barrel?
Speaker 1: Maybe a little right, yeah, maybe a little bit. I'm
Speaker 1: not uh, we're not superversed and I'm not smart enough
Speaker 1: to know the craft brewing process, yes, but I would
Speaker 1: say it was delicious because I liked how it had
Speaker 1: both those things going on. It was it was light
Speaker 1: enough with a little bit of that like bourbon finish
Speaker 1: on the beer, and like, what's better than a barrel
Speaker 1: aged out in January? Honestly, like not much. This was
Speaker 1: a great example of a homebrew stouts and crafted with
Speaker 1: care by Jess over there for sure. Yeah, crafted with love,
Speaker 1: and it was almost brewed like this. This isn't an
Speaker 1: overly heavy, thick, dark, clunky kind of stout right like it's.
Speaker 1: It's kind of it's a very chipper, bright on its
Speaker 1: toes type of stouts while still incorporating some of those
Speaker 1: woody barrel aged notes. That's was a fantastic stout. I'm
Speaker 1: glad that you and I got to enjoy this one together,
Speaker 1: And a huge thanks to our friend Jess for donating
Speaker 1: this one to the show. Yeah, he drove it over,
Speaker 1: dropped it off on the stuff. So yeah, thank you, Jess.
Speaker 1: We appreciate it. I think he said they bottled this
Speaker 1: one like not even two weeks ago. It's pretty great.
Speaker 1: So so it's fresh, fresh, fresh, fresh, all right, well, Matt,
Speaker 1: that's gonna do it. For this episode. We'll have links
Speaker 1: to both of the cookbooks we talked about today with
Speaker 1: Leanne in our show notes, up on our website at
Speaker 1: how to money dot com. That's all right, Joel, that's
Speaker 1: gonna be it until next time. Best Friends Out, Best
Speaker 1: Friends Out,