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Speaker 1: Brought to you by the reinvented two thousand twelve Camray.

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Speaker 1: It's ready. Are you welcome to step Mom never told

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Speaker 1: you from House top Works dot Com. Come and welcome

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Speaker 1: to the podcast. This is Molly and I'm Kristen. Kristen.

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Speaker 1: We had a pretty cool opportunity come up to us

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Speaker 1: a few a few weeks ago, FILS we did. We

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Speaker 1: talked to Dr Rebecca Beaton, who was a psychologist and

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Speaker 1: also the founder and director of the Anxiety and Stress

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Speaker 1: Management Institute. Yes, frankly surprising, she didn't take both of

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Speaker 1: us away for anxiety and stress management help Tacus the

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Speaker 1: real But actually, if you are a fan of TLC,

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Speaker 1: you've probably seen Dr Beaton on the show Hoarding Buried Alive. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: hoarding has been getting a lot of attention lately on television. Uh,

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Speaker 1: it's sort of come out of nowhere, highlighting this disorder

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Speaker 1: that's actually been around and recognized in the clinical community

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Speaker 1: for a long time. But I don't know about you, Molly,

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Speaker 1: but it's only been in maybe the past year or

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Speaker 1: two that I've really known about hoarding. Yeah, it's been

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Speaker 1: everywhere in the last year or two, and and that's

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Speaker 1: why it was so great to talk to Dr Beaton

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Speaker 1: is because she, I think, cleared up a lot of misconceptions,

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Speaker 1: sort of more defined this condition of hoarding for us.

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Speaker 1: So we're going to play a lot of our conversation

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Speaker 1: with her today. But before we get started, shall I

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Speaker 1: just give you a brief overview of hoarding? Yes, please,

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Speaker 1: In case you've been living in a house that's full

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Speaker 1: of belongings and you can't find a radio. I'm a

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Speaker 1: little concerned. I don't have a closet in my room,

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Speaker 1: so sometimes I feel like a hoarder even if I'm

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Speaker 1: not hoarding, just because my things are always out. I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna be honest with you, I think even if you're

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Speaker 1: not a hoarder, listening to Dr Beaton is going to

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Speaker 1: make you question yourself. Yeah, you're gonna want to go

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Speaker 1: clean out your sock drawer or something you gotta You're

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Speaker 1: gonna have to get rid of something. Hoarding is an

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Speaker 1: excessive collection of items along with the inability to discard them.

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Speaker 1: That sense is from the Mayo Clinic. And what happens,

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Speaker 1: what really distinguishes hoarding from something else is Dr Beaton's

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Speaker 1: gonna againto is just how it affects your living conditions, right,

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Speaker 1: they're gonna get so cramped that everything is filled a capacity.

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Speaker 1: But people who are living there don't see it as

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Speaker 1: a problem. It's often the people around the hoarder who finally,

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Speaker 1: you know, it's the breaking point where they're like, you've

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Speaker 1: got to do something about this. Right. And one thing

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Speaker 1: that I didn't know about hoarding before we talked to

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Speaker 1: Dr Beaton was that it's actually UM right now considered

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Speaker 1: a subset of O c D or obsessive compulsive disorder.

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Speaker 1: But that's actually about to change, is Dr Beaton's gonna

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Speaker 1: tell us about, and hoarding is going to be classified

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Speaker 1: as its own specific disorder. So here's Dr Beaton telling

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Speaker 1: us a little bit more about hoarding in its connection

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Speaker 1: to O c D in terms of the connection with

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Speaker 1: UM O c D. Typically it's considered right now subtype

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Speaker 1: of O c D and UM or it's also considered

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Speaker 1: one of the eight criteria for obsessive compulsive personality disorder,

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Speaker 1: which is slightly different than just straight O c D

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Speaker 1: uh UM. And however, they are slating to put the

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Speaker 1: new Diagnostical Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders into effect in

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Speaker 1: two thousand twelve and they've slated hoarding disorder to be

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Speaker 1: its own disorder among the anxiety disorders and the new

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Speaker 1: d S M and UM and primarily because they've realized

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Speaker 1: that there's different neurobiology with hoarding than O c D

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Speaker 1: and also the treatment protocol that you would use to

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Speaker 1: treat O c D doesn't quite work with hoarding disorder,

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Speaker 1: and so they've realized that it is really very unique

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Speaker 1: and it should not just be classified as a subtype. Now.

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Speaker 1: I have to say, Christen, when we first started thinking

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Speaker 1: about talking about hoarding, my mind immediately went to my father,

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Speaker 1: who collects a lot of political memorabilia, sometimes the point

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Speaker 1: of obsession, but you know, it's it's really cool stuff.

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Speaker 1: And I think that often probably my long suffering mother

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Speaker 1: has been like is this collecting or is this hoarding? Right?

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Speaker 1: Because so many people have all kinds of collections. I

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Speaker 1: know I had to stamp collection as a child, Molly

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Speaker 1: um my mother. I probably shouldn't share this, but embarrassing

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Speaker 1: factually had a Beanie baby collection. I think everyone has something,

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Speaker 1: you know, and and it's very easy to um. I've

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Speaker 1: told this story, I think to you before Christmen. One

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Speaker 1: time I made a pair of frog pajamas in a

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Speaker 1: sewing class. Yes, you brought this up in our home podcast,

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Speaker 1: and now everyone gives me frog stuff just at the wazoo.

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Speaker 1: So now you're the girl collecting frogs even though you

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Speaker 1: didn't even mean to start, even when you just start

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Speaker 1: this collection. So how do I distinguish a shelf for

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Speaker 1: full of frog gifts from you know, something more sinister

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Speaker 1: like hoarding? And that is the question we posed to

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Speaker 1: dr beaton. Where the real problem comes in is if

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Speaker 1: it caused impairment and they're functioning, So if it's causing

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Speaker 1: the living space to be so out it that they

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Speaker 1: can't move around very well or access things that they

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Speaker 1: need like the stove or the refrigerator, or if it's

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Speaker 1: blocking like heat ducks or exits is so it really

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Speaker 1: comes down to how much space it's taking up versus

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Speaker 1: what it is. So when you watch the show Hoarding

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Speaker 1: Buried Alive on TLC and you see the extent to

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Speaker 1: which hoarding has clearly um created some kind of functional

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Speaker 1: impairment in these people's lives. I mean there's just stuff.

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Speaker 1: They can't even get through their houses. They can barely

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Speaker 1: sleep in their own beds because there was just stuff everywhere.

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Speaker 1: The big question for me while it was where does

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Speaker 1: this hoarding behavior come from? It seems so abnormal in

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Speaker 1: a way, because you know, you can see the evidence

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Speaker 1: of this this functional impairment right in front of you.

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Speaker 1: So the question we wanted to ask Dr Beaton was

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Speaker 1: what are the psychological roots of this kind of obsessive,

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Speaker 1: compulsive of behavior. I find that almost all hoarders are

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Speaker 1: trying to protect themselves, So no matter what they're reason

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Speaker 1: for collecting is underneath it all is a way of

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Speaker 1: putting up a wall to keep them safe from people. Um,

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Speaker 1: there's certainly a biological predisposition to it, we've determined, and

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Speaker 1: it's hereditary. You know. There's some statistics that say up

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Speaker 1: to cent of first degree relatives are a person with

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Speaker 1: hoarding disorder will have a first degree relative that also

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Speaker 1: has hoarding disorder, So they've got that predisposition. However, Um,

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Speaker 1: you know, and it also starts in early childhood and adolescent.

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Speaker 1: So if you start to see the pattern coming about

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Speaker 1: in early adolescents typically and they start hoarding somewhat, and

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Speaker 1: then as life goes on and we all go through

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Speaker 1: trials and tribulations and personal um losses and those losses

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Speaker 1: seem to really affect them more and more where they

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Speaker 1: start walling off, and um, they're really protecting themselves from

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Speaker 1: being hurt by people, and that's a great way to do.

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Speaker 1: So you don't invite people into your home because you

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Speaker 1: don't want them to see it, and um, they are

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Speaker 1: worried that people are going to judge them, so they

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Speaker 1: just don't allow themselves to get close to other people.

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Speaker 1: So that's a component I think that's important to realize,

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Speaker 1: is that there's definitely a social aspect there of there

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Speaker 1: they're wanting to protect themselves, and um, I think that

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Speaker 1: gets missed at times. Clearly. It takes a lot of

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Speaker 1: time though too a mass an enormous collection. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it took me years to create the perfect stamp collection, Molly,

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Speaker 1: I'm really excited collection. That's not a ware it existed. Well,

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Speaker 1: I kind of had had a jump, so it was

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Speaker 1: it was a election started by my father that was

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Speaker 1: innt handed down Jamie, so I didn't have to start

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Speaker 1: from scratch. But with as with any collection, it takes

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Speaker 1: a long time to accumulate all of these things. So

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Speaker 1: a lot of times, by the time hoarding really gets

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Speaker 1: out of hand, you're an adult, you know, your middle aged.

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Speaker 1: You've had years and you probably have the apartment or

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Speaker 1: the house and the disposed income and the disposable income

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Speaker 1: to create these enormous collections of things. But one thing

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Speaker 1: that doctor Beaten points out is that this behavior, whether

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Speaker 1: you can notice it or not, generally begins in adolescence.

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Speaker 1: I have an adolescent right now that um it's actually

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Speaker 1: a family I'm working with and I UM and the

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Speaker 1: the adolescent has started to watch hoarding Buried Alive and realized,

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Speaker 1: oh my gosh, I have this. And he realized it

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Speaker 1: before his mother even realized it because he's he's holding

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Speaker 1: onto all these items from childhood because it reminds some

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Speaker 1: happy times and he does not want to let go

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Speaker 1: of his g I. Joe's and all these various things. So, UM,

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Speaker 1: that's really you can start to see whether they're having

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Speaker 1: anxiety around partying with items that it's really important they

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Speaker 1: keep everything. Um. And and you know, for him, he's

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Speaker 1: catching it early. And so he's got a charity that

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Speaker 1: he really likes, and he is donating to the charity

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Speaker 1: and he's trying to you know, we're trying to help

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Speaker 1: him reframe, you know, it isn't it great to have

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Speaker 1: some other um, you know, kid out there that can

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Speaker 1: enjoy these items that that you're just living sit on

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Speaker 1: the shelf at this point. So, I mean that's primary.

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Speaker 1: Primarily where it shows up is is toys and memories

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Speaker 1: or you know, but it can be different things too.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you can still be like their trash or

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Speaker 1: um you know, a collection of some kind. It just depends,

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Speaker 1: but that is where it shows up. Typically there's some

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Speaker 1: sense of being, you know, wanting to keep things and

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Speaker 1: collect things in at a lot sense even an early

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Speaker 1: child that it can show up, but it doesn't a

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Speaker 1: lot of times it goes under the radar until they

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Speaker 1: are older. And if you have, if you've noticed with

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Speaker 1: the show, they are often in their mid fifties. And

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Speaker 1: so if you think about mid fifties, that's about the

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Speaker 1: time you lose a parent and um or have lost

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Speaker 1: a parent maybe you know, within the last decade, and

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Speaker 1: over the last decade the hoarding gets worse. So they

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Speaker 1: end up on the show about mid fifties. So they

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Speaker 1: can go under the radar for a long time. Plus

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Speaker 1: it takes a while. It depends about how much money

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Speaker 1: a person has, but it takes a while to fill

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Speaker 1: up a house. You know. You also find with them

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Speaker 1: that they have like some kind of inheritance. Um, you

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Speaker 1: know that they you know, one person I worked with

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Speaker 1: on the show, she had had a two d thod

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Speaker 1: dollar inheritance and she blew through it in a couple

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Speaker 1: of years and that's how she built up her house. Um.

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Speaker 1: So if that's why it shows up later on, is

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Speaker 1: it takes time to have enough money to collect these

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Speaker 1: things or I mean, you know, it doesn't always have

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Speaker 1: to be the items they purchased. It could be things

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Speaker 1: that you know, you've seen dumpster divers and that kind

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Speaker 1: of thing. Um, But it often does show open adolescence.

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Speaker 1: So we know some of the psychological roots of it.

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Speaker 1: We know when it starts. We can We've started to

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Speaker 1: learn from talking to Dr Beaton some of the characteristics

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Speaker 1: of this condition. But the thing I had to know

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Speaker 1: was just, you know, why is this going on? Why

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Speaker 1: you know, if if you're if you can't walk around

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Speaker 1: your house, why do you keep doing it? And so

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Speaker 1: that's what we asked Dr Beaten. The thing about hoarding

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Speaker 1: disorder is that they are reinforced for both collecting and avoiding,

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Speaker 1: and so they get high off of collecting. I mean,

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Speaker 1: that's why it's very much like an addiction and UM.

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Speaker 1: And so they get a rush from collecting or looking

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Speaker 1: at the items that they collected. I mean, when I

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Speaker 1: worked with kept the price tags on everything that she

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Speaker 1: collected because she got a great deal. So if she'd

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Speaker 1: want to look at them and say, look at how

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Speaker 1: much I paid for that, I hardly paid anything. That's awesome.

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Speaker 1: And so you know, they get they get a high

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Speaker 1: off of it, so that they're reinforced for that. And

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Speaker 1: then they also get reinforced for avoiding because if it

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Speaker 1: causes more anxiety to actually conquer the fear. And so

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Speaker 1: if they just avoid it, then they keep them the

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Speaker 1: anxiety at bay and maybe if they go out shopping

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Speaker 1: again for something or collecting however they're doing they're collecting,

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Speaker 1: then that will keep the anxiety at bay. UM. And

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Speaker 1: it's with O. C D. Typically they're in the moment,

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Speaker 1: they're having more distress over it. They're realizing, you know this,

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Speaker 1: this is not good that I'm doing this, whereas the

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Speaker 1: horridor when they're out shopping, they are enjoying every minute

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Speaker 1: of it, which is why it's more like an addiction

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Speaker 1: in that way than it is typical o CDP behavior. Now,

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Speaker 1: this is stuff no I've never told you, and we

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Speaker 1: can't can't do a subject without throwing all the little

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Speaker 1: little gender fund in there. You're probably wondering why it

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Speaker 1: took so long to get to this, But we had

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Speaker 1: to know differences between male and female hoarders. And I

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Speaker 1: bet you what Dr Beans about to saying might surprise

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Speaker 1: some of you. So take a listen. Well, actually men

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Speaker 1: are twice as likely to get hoarding disorder than women are,

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Speaker 1: which is kind of interesting. Yeah, um, and um, so

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Speaker 1: it's it's primarily men. However, certainly there are plenty of women,

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Speaker 1: and women tend to come forward more often for treatment

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Speaker 1: than men do, just in general, they're more likely to

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Speaker 1: seek help. However, So in terms of differences, the it's

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Speaker 1: basically in what their interests are, what they want to collect.

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Speaker 1: You see more men collecting tools and items that they

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Speaker 1: can use to um, to fix things or you know,

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Speaker 1: scrap metal things like that. But but that I mean, certainly,

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Speaker 1: I'm sure there's a woman out there that's interested in

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Speaker 1: as well. In terms of um, you know, do they

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Speaker 1: collect different things? Again, it's just the interests or how

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Speaker 1: they collect it. I guess it's real question. There really

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Speaker 1: isn't any difference. They everyone has their different reasons for collecting.

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Speaker 1: So it might be security where they're trying to make

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Speaker 1: sure that they have something on hand that they might

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Speaker 1: need in the future, or it could be attachment to

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Speaker 1: a loved one. It's maybe somebody who has passed and

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Speaker 1: they are wanting to still remain connected to them or

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Speaker 1: a memory. So in terms of that, it might be sentimentality,

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Speaker 1: or it could be that they don't want to fill

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Speaker 1: up a landfill or contribute to pollution in any way.

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Speaker 1: So they take this responsibility of trying to collect items

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Speaker 1: and recycle them in just the right way, and then

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Speaker 1: they have difficulty actually following through with that. And that's

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Speaker 1: one of the harmark hallmarks too, is the difficulty following

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Speaker 1: through with their intentions. They've got these great intentions that

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Speaker 1: they're going to use this to create that, or that

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Speaker 1: they amass all this certain amount of information that they

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Speaker 1: may need in the future, that they can put it

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Speaker 1: in some kind of um orderly fashion that they can

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Speaker 1: access it, but the ability to actually follow through with

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Speaker 1: that is difficult for them typically, So we know that

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Speaker 1: men and women tend to hoard differently. They have different

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Speaker 1: kinds of pathologies when it comes to hoarding. But Molly

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Speaker 1: and I also wanted to know if Dr Beaton could

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Speaker 1: walk in and see the type of thing that someone

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Speaker 1: is hoarding. Say if they when she walks in and

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Speaker 1: sees my frog shelf, right, when she walks and sees

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Speaker 1: your frog shelf, or if she walks into someone's house

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Speaker 1: and sees like rose and Rose and Rose of Oh,

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Speaker 1: I don't know, like life magazines and take out container

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Speaker 1: takeout containers. Yet, what what can you tell about one

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Speaker 1: based on what he or she hoards? Does do those

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Speaker 1: items have some clues into the disorder? I first thought

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Speaker 1: you might think you could tell something about the collection, Like,

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Speaker 1: for example, if you come in and you see a

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Speaker 1: bunch of unused or used to go boxes that haven't

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Speaker 1: been thrown away, or a bunch of trash, you might think, oh,

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Speaker 1: you know, they have difficulty with you know, partying with anything,

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Speaker 1: and they don't wanna you know, a lot of them

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Speaker 1: really want to recycle, or they want to make sure

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Speaker 1: that the items are going to the right place. They

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Speaker 1: might think that they could be used someplace else or newspaper,

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Speaker 1: and you might think that the reason is because they

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Speaker 1: are not wanting to um, you know, create a greater

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Speaker 1: carbon footprint or something like that. However, it might actually

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Speaker 1: be that those newspapers that they've amassed are ones that

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Speaker 1: came in prior to two when their mother died, and

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Speaker 1: so it was it's actually sentimentality. So the biggest thing

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Speaker 1: is not making an assumption when you see the items

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Speaker 1: that this is why they're there. You have to talk

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Speaker 1: to them and find out. So tell me these significance

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Speaker 1: of these items, what's going on here. So at the

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Speaker 1: beginning of the podcast, we knowed that the main difference

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Speaker 1: between hoarding and collecting is a functional impairment. And then

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Speaker 1: the thing that really drives this hoarding behavior is the

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Speaker 1: psychological reward that someone gets from going out and finding

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Speaker 1: the item that they want and then getting it into

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Speaker 1: their possession, and it really sets up an addictive pattern

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Speaker 1: in their in their brain, not unlike a drug addiction

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Speaker 1: or an alcohol addiction. So when we were talking to

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Speaker 1: Dr Beaton about how you treat this hoarding behavior, especially

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Speaker 1: when it gets to the extreme point that you see

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Speaker 1: on Hoarding Buried Alive on t LC, you really do

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Speaker 1: have to and approach it. You really do have the

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Speaker 1: approach that you even like someone who say, has been

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Speaker 1: an alcoholic for for years and years. But it actually

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Speaker 1: reaches the point where some people will bottom out and

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Speaker 1: realize the extent of the impairment that they're living with,

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Speaker 1: or that's the point when the family members step in

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Speaker 1: and say, hey, you, you can't live like this anymore.

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Speaker 1: So we asked Darr Beaten to talk with us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about how hoarding does work like an addiction

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Speaker 1: and how someone can come out of that. I think

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Speaker 1: that they do bottom out and they realize, you know,

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Speaker 1: I can't get to my refrigerator anymore, and my health

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Speaker 1: is suffering because I'm not eating well. But that's ideal

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Speaker 1: if they realize it. Most of the time it has

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Speaker 1: to do with their family or loved ones around them

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Speaker 1: that are they can't take it anymore once they live

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Speaker 1: with or they're so concerned and that they cut off

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Speaker 1: their relationship with them, or just say I'm I'm I'm

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Speaker 1: not going to stay married to you any longer. That

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Speaker 1: usually is their bottom out. But if you think about addictions, says,

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Speaker 1: usually their bottom out too is when the people ruand

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Speaker 1: him stop enabling them, so that's often when you find

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Speaker 1: them come into treatment. So if if this is like

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Speaker 1: an addiction, you've got to ask the question, how do

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Speaker 1: you overcome this addiction? Is it different than overcoming a

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Speaker 1: drug addiction? And you know, I think that hoarding has

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Speaker 1: been on TV quite a bit now that you may

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Speaker 1: not even know how to do it without being on television.

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Speaker 1: So that's the question, how does someone overcome a hoarding addiction?

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Speaker 1: And what was really cool about this is Dr Beaton

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Speaker 1: used a specific example of someone she's worked with to

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Speaker 1: really illustrate it for us. So to take a listen

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Speaker 1: to this. M One person I worked with for TLC

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Speaker 1: was a professional skateboarder. He had been sober for twenty

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Speaker 1: two years UM from alcohol and drugs, and he we

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Speaker 1: The way I framed it with him was as an addiction,

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Speaker 1: so that he could treat this addiction, the hoarding addiction,

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Speaker 1: just as he did the other because he was so

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Speaker 1: successful in that and UM and a big component was

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Speaker 1: he he was afraid of being hurt again. He'd been

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Speaker 1: hurt several times and it was the hoarding really started

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Speaker 1: getting worse after his divorce and primarily after the loss

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Speaker 1: of his mother. So in particular for him, what we

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Speaker 1: needed to do was not only look at as an

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Speaker 1: as an addiction, so one day at a time was

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Speaker 1: critical and trying to be able to figure out those

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Speaker 1: triggers when he wanted to to use so to speak.

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Speaker 1: And for him it was getting online and purchasing skateboard

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Speaker 1: parts on online, and so he would get off work

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Speaker 1: in the evening. He worked like a swing shift. He'd

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Speaker 1: get off work and want to get online and start

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Speaker 1: buying you know, skateboard wheels and trucks and all these

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Speaker 1: different things. I never even knew what they were, but

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Speaker 1: I learned and he UM, And so what we had

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Speaker 1: to do is, first of all, do you know like

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Speaker 1: just you would with an addiction, one at a time.

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Speaker 1: And then he worked the program of trying to start

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Speaker 1: organizing and cleaning out things just like he did. Um,

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Speaker 1: he just like he did with his addiction. And so

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Speaker 1: UM in addition to that was relying on people and

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Speaker 1: asking for help because as I mentioned earlier, it comes

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Speaker 1: back to really what we call a psychologist an attachment disorder.

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Speaker 1: They are attached to belongings rather than people because people

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Speaker 1: have hurt them in one way or another. There was

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Speaker 1: some kind of traumatic event and people have hurt them,

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Speaker 1: so they end up with sort of a phobic, a

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Speaker 1: phobia of becoming close to individuals. So dealing up the

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Speaker 1: space and the time with belongings creates a distance from others,

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Speaker 1: and so a lot of line is what they The

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Speaker 1: healthiest thing they can do to fill up the void

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Speaker 1: is actually actually reach out for the support of individuals

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Speaker 1: of some even if it's just one person, and it

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00:22:06,320 --> 00:22:09,719
Speaker 1: might be the therapist, it might be the organizer, somebody

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00:22:09,760 --> 00:22:12,480
Speaker 1: that they can have a healthy attachment with, is the

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Speaker 1: best thing that they can do to actually heal the

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Speaker 1: original wound. But just like any addiction, Dr Beaton stress

385
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Speaker 1: the fact that it's critical to treat recovery from hoarding

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Speaker 1: as a step by step process. It's not an overnight switch.

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Speaker 1: You can't just walk in to someone's house. I can

388
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Speaker 1: just walk in, burn all of my mother's beanie babies

389
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Speaker 1: and tell her to have a nice day and feel

390
00:22:37,440 --> 00:22:40,760
Speaker 1: pat myself on the back for ridding her of that

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Speaker 1: of that burden. No, that's only going to perpetuate the cycle.

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Speaker 1: So Dr Beaton cause a real rift in your relationship,

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Speaker 1: and it would, yes, Uh So Dr Beaton went over

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Speaker 1: that that the time factor that's involved with overcoming hoarding behavior.

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Speaker 1: So it's really critical to always let the person make

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Speaker 1: the decision about their belongings. That you never want to

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Speaker 1: take something away from somebody and say this has got

398
00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:12,960
Speaker 1: to go, because first of all, that's gonna you're gonna

399
00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:15,159
Speaker 1: lose trust and the person is not gonna want to

400
00:23:15,240 --> 00:23:18,320
Speaker 1: let you help them anymore. They're going to feel violated

401
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:23,600
Speaker 1: and re traumatized from whatever their loss was originally. And

402
00:23:23,840 --> 00:23:30,280
Speaker 1: um So helping them you know, kind of process through

403
00:23:30,320 --> 00:23:33,400
Speaker 1: it because obviously if they do have some processing issues,

404
00:23:34,160 --> 00:23:36,840
Speaker 1: then they need some help learning how to process. That's

405
00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,280
Speaker 1: one of the key things is I want to teach

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00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:41,760
Speaker 1: them how to do it. I don't want to do

407
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Speaker 1: it for them. And so you know, helping them sort

408
00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 1: through How often do you use this Do you think

409
00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 1: you'll actually be able to um to do this intended

410
00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:58,280
Speaker 1: project with this item that you want to do? You know,

411
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Speaker 1: what's the evidence that you've actually done these things before

412
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,000
Speaker 1: you actually follow through with them? When was the last

413
00:24:04,000 --> 00:24:06,320
Speaker 1: time you did did follow through with it? You know,

414
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:08,239
Speaker 1: so you kind of help them learn to process it,

415
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:10,200
Speaker 1: like it depends on the border, but you give them

416
00:24:10,200 --> 00:24:12,199
Speaker 1: like a set of questions they can ask themselves when

417
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Speaker 1: they're looking at an item, so that they can kind

418
00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:17,720
Speaker 1: of see, um, you know, is this something I really

419
00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:20,399
Speaker 1: need even if it's a memory? Um? Is she like?

420
00:24:20,640 --> 00:24:25,320
Speaker 1: You know when I worked with Judy Um the that

421
00:24:25,440 --> 00:24:30,960
Speaker 1: was for season one and um, she had a lot

422
00:24:31,000 --> 00:24:34,840
Speaker 1: of items that were from her boyfriend who died in

423
00:24:35,040 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: her house, right in front of her, and they were

424
00:24:38,040 --> 00:24:41,159
Speaker 1: like old flowers he had given her, you know, a

425
00:24:41,160 --> 00:24:43,919
Speaker 1: dozen roses. What we did was we took pictures of

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00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 1: things so that way she could keep pictures and she

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00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 1: didn't have to keep the actual item because it was

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00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:50,000
Speaker 1: something it was mortant too, So there's different ways to

429
00:24:50,000 --> 00:24:53,440
Speaker 1: be creative about being able to keep the memory without

430
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:55,840
Speaker 1: having to keep the item. Ideally, you want them to

431
00:24:55,840 --> 00:24:57,280
Speaker 1: be able to keep it in their mind and know

432
00:24:57,400 --> 00:25:00,040
Speaker 1: that it's always there if they want to access it,

433
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: But especially in the beginning, they're not sure that they

434
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 1: can actually do that. And you know, I think again,

435
00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:09,439
Speaker 1: when when you see hoarding on television so much, on

436
00:25:09,480 --> 00:25:12,280
Speaker 1: shows like Hoarding Buried Alive, you do think that it's

437
00:25:12,280 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: something that can be wrapped up in thirty minutes or

438
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,760
Speaker 1: an hour, and so it's important to remember that, you know,

439
00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:20,160
Speaker 1: it is a time consuming process. It's not an overnight thing.

440
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:23,439
Speaker 1: But but you know, why are there's so many shows

441
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,280
Speaker 1: about this right now? Like why do we think this

442
00:25:26,320 --> 00:25:28,080
Speaker 1: is something that's getting wrapped up in thirty minutes or

443
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:29,560
Speaker 1: an hour? And why do we want to watch this

444
00:25:29,760 --> 00:25:31,640
Speaker 1: try to be wrapped up? And and so we asked,

445
00:25:31,640 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: just we asked Dr Beaton, you know how this um

446
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:37,560
Speaker 1: new obsession with hoarding has come about? And here's what

447
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: she had to say. I think it's primarily the media,

448
00:25:41,440 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 1: and that now that it's out and people are learning

449
00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,440
Speaker 1: about it, all of a sudden, people are realizing this

450
00:25:47,480 --> 00:25:52,639
Speaker 1: is what is going on with Uncle, Harry or mom

451
00:25:52,880 --> 00:25:56,600
Speaker 1: or whoever it may be. And and so that's why

452
00:25:56,720 --> 00:25:59,439
Speaker 1: it's gotten such attention. Now. On the one hand, I

453
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 1: could see a lot of positives with highlighting hoarding behavior

454
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,880
Speaker 1: on television. Dr Beaton was saying that since people are

455
00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,639
Speaker 1: seeing it on TV, they're starting to recognize patterns with

456
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:15,119
Speaker 1: them themselves or perhaps within a loved one. But on

457
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: the flip side of that, with all of the media exposure,

458
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,959
Speaker 1: we wanted to know what kind of misconceptions about hoarding

459
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 1: and specifically recovery from hoarding might have arisen as a

460
00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:31,199
Speaker 1: result of it being portrayed on television and being covered

461
00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 1: so much now in the media. And so this is

462
00:26:34,119 --> 00:26:38,120
Speaker 1: what Dr Beaton had to say about that. One thing

463
00:26:38,160 --> 00:26:41,240
Speaker 1: I love about working with CLC is they've been really

464
00:26:42,240 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 1: phenomenal about uh the individual and taking care of them

465
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,080
Speaker 1: and whatever's best for them versus what's going to be

466
00:26:50,119 --> 00:26:53,800
Speaker 1: great for TV. And so they've gone really slowly with

467
00:26:53,840 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 1: the client because I think that's one of the misconceptions

468
00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: is that you can go in and clean up a

469
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 1: house in a couple of days and the person can

470
00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:05,520
Speaker 1: start over and everything will be fine, and what um

471
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,800
Speaker 1: what you find is that people will end up being

472
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:14,000
Speaker 1: traumatized by that. It's like another loss for them. And

473
00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: the idea of being able to slow it down and

474
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:21,640
Speaker 1: realize this is really a marathon, not a sprint. It's

475
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:24,080
Speaker 1: going to be a lifelong journey, just like an addiction,

476
00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:26,040
Speaker 1: where you have to take one day at a time

477
00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:28,680
Speaker 1: if you're gonna have backslides, and you have to keep

478
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:31,879
Speaker 1: going forward, and that it's really something that they need

479
00:27:31,920 --> 00:27:35,280
Speaker 1: to work with their entire lives typically because they're gonna

480
00:27:35,280 --> 00:27:38,480
Speaker 1: have a propensity to want to collect again, and they're

481
00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:41,720
Speaker 1: gonna want to keep things and not throw them away.

482
00:27:42,640 --> 00:27:46,439
Speaker 1: So anyhow, um, I think the primary misconception is that

483
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:47,720
Speaker 1: you can go in and just clean up a house

484
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 1: and the person is going to be okay, and it's

485
00:27:49,280 --> 00:27:52,440
Speaker 1: it's all over and bilblot their lives happily ever after.

486
00:27:53,000 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: That's just not the way it works. It's really really slow,

487
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:59,720
Speaker 1: and I really appreciate Deals the way they've taken time

488
00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:02,800
Speaker 1: with clients. If they want to bring somebody in to

489
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,879
Speaker 1: do like a big clean out, it's typically just you know,

490
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:09,360
Speaker 1: it's over a period of a couple of months for starters,

491
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 1: it's not a weekend. Now. Again, the way we came

492
00:28:12,280 --> 00:28:14,840
Speaker 1: into contact with Dr Beaton is because you know, we

493
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,600
Speaker 1: work for Discovery Communications and uh, we have this association

494
00:28:18,640 --> 00:28:21,360
Speaker 1: with TLC and the show holding Buried Alive. But what's

495
00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: really cool if we made two to our own sister

496
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:26,760
Speaker 1: channel's horn for a little bit, is that Dr Beaton

497
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 1: claims that TLC is so thrilled with follow up therapy

498
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,440
Speaker 1: and care for the people who have been profiled on

499
00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:33,920
Speaker 1: the show, which I think is is really amazing because

500
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: you do have to wonder on any reality show what

501
00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: happens after the cameras stop rolling, and uh, she really

502
00:28:40,960 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 1: appreciated the fact that she gets stored with these people

503
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:46,360
Speaker 1: for for you know, a lot of time. You know,

504
00:28:46,400 --> 00:28:48,360
Speaker 1: it's not like she sees them for one show and

505
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,760
Speaker 1: they're gone. And so as a result, there's some really

506
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 1: cool success stories, and she's going to share one with

507
00:28:54,280 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: us right now. I loved working with Benny out in

508
00:28:57,960 --> 00:29:01,400
Speaker 1: in Oakland. Um. He I mean, his house was the

509
00:29:01,400 --> 00:29:04,880
Speaker 1: worst I've ever seen and he's got it about halfway

510
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:08,360
Speaker 1: cleared out. And to me, that's huge. Um. And the

511
00:29:08,400 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: biggest thing I love about I mean, I love all

512
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,440
Speaker 1: I've really really cared about all the hoarders I've worked with.

513
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:17,880
Speaker 1: But the where I see Ben he's made a great

514
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,880
Speaker 1: success is that he he has not acquired. He stopped

515
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:25,520
Speaker 1: acquiring since we started working with him. Actually the months

516
00:29:25,600 --> 00:29:29,240
Speaker 1: before we actually showed up the film, he he started

517
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 1: really working on not acquiring. He decided I gotta start now,

518
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:35,280
Speaker 1: and so he's only bought one hat in the last

519
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:39,960
Speaker 1: like six months. And he actually he's you know, he's

520
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,800
Speaker 1: actually put himself in the situation, in the high risk situation,

521
00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: if you will, like we talk about with addicts where

522
00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:49,280
Speaker 1: he actually goes into the discount stores or the flea

523
00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:52,600
Speaker 1: markets and he puts himself in the situation, kind of

524
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: plays around with things. He loves clothing, and um, that's

525
00:29:57,240 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: again where you can't stereotype who collects what, because he

526
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,560
Speaker 1: collects more clothing than I've seen any woman ever click

527
00:30:04,000 --> 00:30:05,960
Speaker 1: and um, you know, and he'll play around with things

528
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:09,160
Speaker 1: and try him on and he he forced himself to say,

529
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:12,080
Speaker 1: that's all very nice, and I'm walking out now, and

530
00:30:12,120 --> 00:30:15,520
Speaker 1: so I think that's a huge success. And he continues

531
00:30:15,560 --> 00:30:17,160
Speaker 1: to chip away at it. It's just gonna take some

532
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,920
Speaker 1: time because that house is full, and you know, he's

533
00:30:20,960 --> 00:30:25,840
Speaker 1: really made an excellent effort, and I feel really positive

534
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: about where he's going. So clearly it's people are watching

535
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 1: the show. They might be recognizing some hoarding patterns, like

536
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: we said, in their lives or loved one's life and perhaps,

537
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 1: you know, Molly listeners out there right now might be

538
00:30:41,040 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 1: listening to what Dr Beaton has to say and might

539
00:30:43,920 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: be thinking, maybe maybe I know someone that's going on.

540
00:30:49,000 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 1: So to close things out, we wanted to get some

541
00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:56,160
Speaker 1: final advice from Dr Beaten on what the first steps

542
00:30:56,280 --> 00:31:00,520
Speaker 1: on what someone should do if they think that they're

543
00:31:00,560 --> 00:31:02,800
Speaker 1: exhibiting hoarding behavior, or if they see that kind of

544
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,480
Speaker 1: behavior and someone else. Because Dr Beaton's ultimate goal for

545
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:10,240
Speaker 1: participating with Hoarding Baried Alive on t l C is

546
00:31:10,280 --> 00:31:15,640
Speaker 1: to provide an educational outlet and educational resource for people

547
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: out there's to help more people recover from hoarding behavior.

548
00:31:19,720 --> 00:31:22,600
Speaker 1: So from Dr Beaton, here's what you should do. Here's

549
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:25,800
Speaker 1: your takeaway message about UM what to do if you

550
00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 1: think that you might be struggling with hoarding behavior. If

551
00:31:30,080 --> 00:31:33,760
Speaker 1: you find a family member is exhibiting hoarding that it's

552
00:31:33,880 --> 00:31:36,600
Speaker 1: really critical to be your family member or friend it's

553
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:39,120
Speaker 1: exhibiting hoarding and you want to work with them or

554
00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 1: you know, people ask me all the time what should

555
00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,360
Speaker 1: I do? The first thing is be patient UM, and

556
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: then don't take the person's behavior personally. This is about them.

557
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: It's not about the fact that they don't care about

558
00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:55,200
Speaker 1: you enough that they are cluttering up the kitchen so

559
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,800
Speaker 1: much that you can't get to the food. It's it's

560
00:31:58,840 --> 00:32:03,120
Speaker 1: not a personal thing. And UM. Also to build trust

561
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: with them so you can, like I said earlier, you

562
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:07,720
Speaker 1: never want to take something away from somebody without their permission.

563
00:32:08,280 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: You want them to make the decision to actually put

564
00:32:10,600 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: it in the recycle ban UM, and then you don't

565
00:32:13,360 --> 00:32:15,960
Speaker 1: want to argue with them. Otherwise if you start arguing

566
00:32:15,960 --> 00:32:18,880
Speaker 1: with them, they'll just dig their hills in deeper. You

567
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:23,960
Speaker 1: want to UM, as I said earlier too, you want

568
00:32:24,000 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: to provide reflection. So is this item really does it

569
00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:30,000
Speaker 1: fit into your long term goals? We always want to

570
00:32:30,000 --> 00:32:32,680
Speaker 1: find out what their goals are. So if their goals are,

571
00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:35,840
Speaker 1: you know, two people actually have a bedroom that they

572
00:32:35,840 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: can go in and actually sleep in. Then if they

573
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:45,120
Speaker 1: want to keep sweaters, is this going to be interfere

574
00:32:45,200 --> 00:32:48,320
Speaker 1: with your goal to have all these sweaters? And UM,

575
00:32:48,480 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: So you're trying to keep them focused on the goal,

576
00:32:50,680 --> 00:32:54,160
Speaker 1: bring them back to that and UM provide reflection to

577
00:32:54,240 --> 00:32:56,880
Speaker 1: them gently pointing out that this current course of action

578
00:32:57,000 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: is not consistent with your overall goal and UM and

579
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: also encourage the person to get help from a qualified professional.

580
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:09,240
Speaker 1: So often people want to try to take it into

581
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 1: their own hands and get the family to just come

582
00:33:11,800 --> 00:33:15,120
Speaker 1: in and clean everything out, and you definitely it's it's

583
00:33:15,160 --> 00:33:18,200
Speaker 1: worth at least making a consultation with the professional. What's

584
00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,160
Speaker 1: the best way to go about it? Sometimes they also

585
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 1: need an intervention, just like with an addiction, where the

586
00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: family needs to sit around and and go through the

587
00:33:25,680 --> 00:33:29,480
Speaker 1: reasons why they're concerned, because often they don't have a

588
00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,400
Speaker 1: lot of insight about it and they don't realize how

589
00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 1: bad it's become. It's such a gradual disorder for the

590
00:33:36,800 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 1: most part that they don't realize that this is really

591
00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: impairing their functioning. And also to be prepared for relapses

592
00:33:46,000 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 1: that they are going to start collecting again at some point.

593
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: It's just part that's part of addiction treatment too, is

594
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 1: relapse is part of the treatment. It's part of the

595
00:33:56,400 --> 00:34:01,000
Speaker 1: course of treatment. You just keeping one step, you know,

596
00:34:01,040 --> 00:34:03,400
Speaker 1: two steps forward, one step back, three steps forward, two

597
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,560
Speaker 1: steps back, as long as you continue to go forward.

598
00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:09,479
Speaker 1: So that was our conversation with Dr Beaton again. She's

599
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:11,520
Speaker 1: on hoarding Barry to Live, which is on t LC,

600
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,480
Speaker 1: and we hope it was helpful. We hope that if

601
00:34:14,520 --> 00:34:17,200
Speaker 1: you don't want to clean up your closet right now,

602
00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 1: which I did after talking to her, you at least

603
00:34:20,000 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 1: took something away from it. We'd love to hear from

604
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 1: you guys about um hoarding behaviors. You've exhibit it. They've

605
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:27,719
Speaker 1: seen other people exhibit. Uh, you know what role is

606
00:34:27,760 --> 00:34:30,600
Speaker 1: holding play on play in your life? All of that

607
00:34:30,719 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 1: we want to know. We we hoard your emails, you will,

608
00:34:34,840 --> 00:34:41,000
Speaker 1: but not in an unhealthy way. Well, here is one

609
00:34:41,040 --> 00:34:43,640
Speaker 1: of those emails only that we are speaking of. And

610
00:34:43,680 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 1: this is in response to our episode on why girls

611
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,680
Speaker 1: Just Love horses? And this is from Becky. She writes,

612
00:34:51,760 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 1: I was never a horse girl. I've always been an

613
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:56,840
Speaker 1: animal lover, but I was never particularly drawn to horses

614
00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,360
Speaker 1: or their environment. But I recently came up with eerie

615
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,200
Speaker 1: that girls tend to fall into one of two categories,

616
00:35:03,680 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: horse girls or dolphin girls. I was a dolphin girl.

617
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:09,920
Speaker 1: My dream as a ten year old was to be

618
00:35:09,920 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 1: the first person to learn the entire dolphin language. I

619
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:14,840
Speaker 1: wanted to bridge the two worlds of the sea in

620
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,520
Speaker 1: the land and create a harmony and a new understanding

621
00:35:17,560 --> 00:35:20,640
Speaker 1: between people and sea mammals. I also felt that because

622
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 1: of dolphins intelligence, I might be able to form a

623
00:35:23,400 --> 00:35:26,520
Speaker 1: meaningful relationship with a dolphin, and maybe even find a

624
00:35:26,560 --> 00:35:29,239
Speaker 1: dolphin who would be my bff. It seems to me

625
00:35:29,280 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 1: that in some ways my attraction to dolphins was probably

626
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:34,080
Speaker 1: similar to some girls attraction to horses. I wanted to

627
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,319
Speaker 1: ride dolphins through the open ocean and get that sense

628
00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,640
Speaker 1: of speed and freedom that comes from a creature that

629
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,240
Speaker 1: is naturally so much faster and freer than myself. Maybe

630
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: it's just a question of environments. Good question, Becky, there's

631
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 1: something to you that. Yeah, I mean, what else is on?

632
00:35:48,880 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 1: Lisa Frank Trapper keepers, unicorns and dolphins? So true, so true?

633
00:35:54,200 --> 00:35:56,560
Speaker 1: So again. Our email is mom Stuff at how stuff

634
00:35:56,600 --> 00:36:00,480
Speaker 1: works dot com and Molly, do you have another one? Okay?

635
00:36:00,520 --> 00:36:02,560
Speaker 1: I thought that you were prepping you helping up mom

636
00:36:02,560 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: summit how stuff works dot com And as always, you

637
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:08,959
Speaker 1: can head over to Facebook and like us over there,

638
00:36:09,239 --> 00:36:12,560
Speaker 1: follow us on Twitter at mom Stuff podcast, and check

639
00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 1: out our blog during the week as well. It's stuff

640
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 1: Mom Never told you, and you can find it at

641
00:36:18,080 --> 00:36:24,719
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com for more on this and

642
00:36:24,840 --> 00:36:27,080
Speaker 1: thousands of other topics. VI is it how stuff works

643
00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,759
Speaker 1: dot com. To learn more about the podcast, click on

644
00:36:29,800 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: the podcast icon in the upper right corner of our homepage.

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Speaker 1: The how Stuff Works iPhone app has arrived. Download it

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Speaker 1: today on iTunes. Brought to you by the reinvented two

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Speaker 1: thousand twelve Camray. It's ready, are you