WEBVTT - Part Two: How We Beat Polio But Not the Mythmaking Around Jonas Salk

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<v Speaker 1>Cool Zone Media.

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<v Speaker 2>Hello, and welcome to the show that you already know

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<v Speaker 2>the name of the title of because you clicked on it.

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<v Speaker 2>I'm your host, Marto Kiljoy and I have a guest,

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<v Speaker 2>and my guest is Annie Reese.

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<v Speaker 3>Hey, Anny Reese, Yes, Hello, I'm so happy to be here,

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<v Speaker 3>happy to be back.

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<v Speaker 2>Thanks. On this day, that's totally a different day than

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<v Speaker 2>the previous day. Definitely, yeah, because this is live. People

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<v Speaker 2>don't know that because it's not true. But Annie Reese

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<v Speaker 2>is a podcaster and is the host of saver, a

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<v Speaker 2>food podcast. Although now you know that it actually isn't

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<v Speaker 2>a different day. If it was two days from now,

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<v Speaker 2>I would have now listened to savor ye because it

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<v Speaker 2>sounds really up my alley, but I didn't because actually

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<v Speaker 2>we only recorded part one about five minutes ago.

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<v Speaker 3>So you're revealing how the sausage gets made.

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<v Speaker 2>I know, Terrible is really just giving them all the secrets.

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<v Speaker 2>It's okay, like the fact we have a secret producer

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<v Speaker 2>never introduced before. Never Sophie Lichterman.

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<v Speaker 3>Hehy, are you, Sophie. I'm all right.

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<v Speaker 1>I lost my voice last week, so it's like slightly

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<v Speaker 1>scratchy still.

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<v Speaker 2>Any particular reason or just for fun.

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<v Speaker 1>I just was like, man, I don't need it anymore.

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<v Speaker 3>It's fine, Yeah, you don't, like you don't work in audio.

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<v Speaker 1>So I was like, fuck it, I don't need that thing.

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<v Speaker 2>You know. It's like now these days, you get a

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<v Speaker 2>cold and then your voice is like slightly different for

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<v Speaker 2>several months. Yeah, And I have a bunch of audio

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<v Speaker 2>books I have to record, and then I keep being like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm gonna put it off until my voice gets back

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<v Speaker 2>to normal, and then I'm like I don't know what

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<v Speaker 2>normal is anymore.

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<v Speaker 3>And recording an audiobook, I've only done one, but it's

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<v Speaker 3>a whole thing. It's annoying, it is, and it's like,

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<v Speaker 3>why don't you just for five hours not mispronounce anything?

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, because every time you do, you have to click

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<v Speaker 2>on your computer and go back.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. And then you're reading the stuff you've written, and

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<v Speaker 3>then you're like, maybe I should have I wish I

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<v Speaker 3>had known I had to read this aloud.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, but this is revealing more information about you

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<v Speaker 2>than I previously knew. Oh no, what was the book

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<v Speaker 2>that you read?

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<v Speaker 3>Well, stuff I've never told you has a book?

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<v Speaker 2>And do you do the audiobook?

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<v Speaker 3>Yes? We did so Samantha McVeigh, who has been a

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<v Speaker 3>guest on the show before. She is my wondrous co

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<v Speaker 3>host and a great friend of mine. We read it together,

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<v Speaker 3>but foolishly we didn't realize we were going to have

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<v Speaker 3>to do the audiobook, and so we were sitting there

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<v Speaker 3>next to each other just bewildered, like, oh gosh, I

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<v Speaker 3>would not have written this if I had known. But

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<v Speaker 3>she was a great support throughout the whole thing. So

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<v Speaker 3>shout out to having supportive friends who help you get

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<v Speaker 3>through something like reading an audiobook for five hours that

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<v Speaker 3>can be very intense. Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I always do that alone in a closet, So like,

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<v Speaker 2>that's pretty good.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, the subject matter was a little deep, so I

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<v Speaker 3>was like, this is yeah, yeah, yeah, but check it out.

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<v Speaker 3>It's good.

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<v Speaker 2>Well. Also, we have an audio engineer named Eva.

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<v Speaker 3>Hi Eva hi Eva hi Eva.

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<v Speaker 2>And our theme music was written for us Beyond Woman,

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<v Speaker 2>and this is part two about well, it's gonna be

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of parts about the things that the government's

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<v Speaker 2>trying to take away from us. And this was going

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<v Speaker 2>to be a glorious episode about how purely amazing the

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<v Speaker 2>polio vaccine is. And then it got more interesting and

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<v Speaker 2>fun when I found out that the person who gets

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<v Speaker 2>called the destroyer of polio was not that, but was

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<v Speaker 2>interesting and strange. And so we are telling the story

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<v Speaker 2>of Jonas Salk, the man who was part of a

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<v Speaker 2>large project and then gets whatever you've already heard me

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<v Speaker 2>complain about this. So he is just start to do

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<v Speaker 2>some flu vaccine stuff. He's not actually the one who

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<v Speaker 2>you know, he's not in charge of this project, but

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<v Speaker 2>he's part of it. And students at the university start

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<v Speaker 2>getting vaccinated too, and so fewer of them were getting sick.

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<v Speaker 2>Soon after that, they started studying how to put multiple

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<v Speaker 2>strains of flu into the one vaccine. But there's a

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<v Speaker 2>problem with this, right, If you put a whole lot

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<v Speaker 2>of different flu into a vaccine, it starts being like, well,

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<v Speaker 2>that's a lot of stuff in one shot, right, And

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<v Speaker 2>people started experimenting with what are called adjuvants, which is

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<v Speaker 2>what you can add to boost a vaccine's immunological response

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<v Speaker 2>without upping the viral load. It's basically stuff that's like magnifying.

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<v Speaker 2>It feels like a video game to me, where you're like, oh,

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<v Speaker 2>if you have this thing, it like works really well

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<v Speaker 2>with this other thing, and it like boosts the thing.

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<v Speaker 3>You know, Yeah, kind of like D and D. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 3>you can get exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, I would argue that anyone who's played D and

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<v Speaker 2>D who's anti vax didn't play D and D. I

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<v Speaker 2>cannot imagine being like, you want a plus one shield

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<v Speaker 2>and you're like, oh no, it doesn't make you completely

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<v Speaker 2>safe forever. So I don't want to plus one shield

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<v Speaker 2>and you're like, who are you? Why are you playing

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<v Speaker 2>Dungeons and Dragons.

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<v Speaker 3>I just feel like I need more of the science.

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<v Speaker 3>I need to do my own research, and I'm just

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<v Speaker 3>going to run into this battle without. I don't need that.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>You're like, all right, you went up a level. Do

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<v Speaker 2>you want all the new powers that come with the

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<v Speaker 2>upper level. I'm like, uh, that's like the way that

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<v Speaker 2>the man wanted the dungeon master told me to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>I don't. I don't trust that person.

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<v Speaker 3>I don't trust that at all.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. So, when you read about Sulk, you read about

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<v Speaker 2>how people loved him, but scientists hated him. And if

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<v Speaker 2>you read something a bit more of one of these

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<v Speaker 2>hagiographies as most writing about him, is the reason that

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<v Speaker 2>scientists hated him is that he bucked the trends. He

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<v Speaker 2>was a maverick who refused to play by the rules

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<v Speaker 2>or whatever. If you read more critical writing about him

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<v Speaker 2>is that he was attention seeking, risk taking idea, taking

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<v Speaker 2>credit for eing, and kind of mercenary and reckless about

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<v Speaker 2>that mercenary part of it. He pissed off his colleagues

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<v Speaker 2>a lot while they're working on the flu shot because

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<v Speaker 2>he made a deal with a pharmaceutical company, Park Davison Company,

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<v Speaker 2>to give them exclusive vaccine information in exchange for royalties

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<v Speaker 2>for the sale of the vaccine. This pissed off Francis,

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<v Speaker 2>the person heading up the project, and they I don't

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<v Speaker 2>think they ever rekindle their friendship.

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<v Speaker 3>The bridge burned, Yeah sounds like yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>I lose track of the number of bridges he burned.

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<v Speaker 2>It might be that they reconnected with this particular person later,

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<v Speaker 2>but I don't believe so. And it's presented as like

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<v Speaker 2>and then after that, he just wanted to be more

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<v Speaker 2>independent in his research, and I'm like, no, he probably

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<v Speaker 2>got a run out for being a capitalist dick bag.

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<v Speaker 2>He's like, I want to be more independent in my research.

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<v Speaker 2>So he moved to Pittsburgh and became the director of

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<v Speaker 2>the Virus Research Laboratory at the University of Pittsburgh's Medical School.

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<v Speaker 2>This is not a prestigious appointment. It is in a

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<v Speaker 2>forty by forty foot basement that is sometimes used as

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<v Speaker 2>a morgue when they need overflow morge space. Originally, he

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<v Speaker 2>was just going to work on the flu and measles

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<v Speaker 2>and the common cold, but he was recruited by an

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<v Speaker 2>organization called the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis, which is

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<v Speaker 2>this massive nonprofit fundraising organization. This is basically the like

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<v Speaker 2>Polio group. It was founded by FDR, the most famous

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<v Speaker 2>polio victim in the world, and FDR put his weight

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<v Speaker 2>behind it and they ran a fundraising campaign which is

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<v Speaker 2>actually still around called the March of Dimes. And this

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<v Speaker 2>started when a bunch of Hollywood stars asked people to

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<v Speaker 2>mail a dime to the White House, and that you

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<v Speaker 2>know the inherent thought of this, I mean, it's mostly

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<v Speaker 2>the thing that the government should just do anyway. But

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<v Speaker 2>the idea is that this would help pay for the

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<v Speaker 2>cost of treatment for polio patients, which basically no one

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<v Speaker 2>could afford. It was incredibly expensive to take care of

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<v Speaker 2>a polio patient and there's no health insurance really at

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<v Speaker 2>this point, and like, it's hard to imagine a war

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<v Speaker 2>system than we currently have. But that's where they were

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<v Speaker 2>this organization. I think eighty million people donated to this,

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<v Speaker 2>which is like, I don't know what the population of

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<v Speaker 2>the US it was in nineteen thirty whatever. I assume

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<v Speaker 2>it's about eighty million people. I don't know.

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<v Speaker 3>I also am stuck in my like modern brain where

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<v Speaker 3>I'm like, the cost of mailing a.

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<v Speaker 2>Die Oh yeah, totally like that. I guess the equivalent

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<v Speaker 2>would be like mailing a dollar now, which still kind

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<v Speaker 2>of barely works out.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah. Hey, it sounds like a lot of people got

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<v Speaker 3>into it.

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<v Speaker 1>I know.

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<v Speaker 2>Also, you're like not supposed to mail cash anymore, and

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<v Speaker 2>that change.

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<v Speaker 3>Oh that's interesting, Okay.

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<v Speaker 2>And so the president founded this organization, but the guy

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<v Speaker 2>who ran this organization, the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis,

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<v Speaker 2>very specifically didn't want the government to be the one

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<v Speaker 2>funding polio research because if the government funds medical research,

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<v Speaker 2>communism wins. No, we can't have that.

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<v Speaker 3>Let all those kids die, you know, you know, not

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<v Speaker 3>communism though.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, And so it's about private fundraising, getting everyone

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<v Speaker 2>to donate. There's a word for getting everyone in the

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<v Speaker 2>country to donate to something. It's called taxes.

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<v Speaker 3>Yep, yep.

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<v Speaker 2>So Sulk in the Pittsburgh Research Center, they're like, all right,

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<v Speaker 2>we're gonna fucking do this. We're gonna cure polio, or rather,

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<v Speaker 2>we're gonna stop polio. And there was a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>work involved in this, and not just like try stuff

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<v Speaker 2>out and see what works, but rather grunt labor of

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<v Speaker 2>typing a ton of different strains of polio. There's three strains,

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<v Speaker 2>and then within each strain there's just like a whole

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<v Speaker 2>bunch of types that are a little sub guys, only

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<v Speaker 2>two had been typed before. And it is long, slow,

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<v Speaker 2>boring work that kills an incredible number of monkeys and

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<v Speaker 2>has to be done incredibly attentively. So Sulk and his

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<v Speaker 2>team started killing those monkeys. That's not the way I

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<v Speaker 2>want to phrase it. They started doing that work. Crucially,

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<v Speaker 2>they are building on the work of a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>people before them, and the work that a lot of

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<v Speaker 2>their peers at other research institutions are still doing. The

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<v Speaker 2>old way of typing polio. The style at the time

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<v Speaker 2>involved okay, you get a lab monkey and you give

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<v Speaker 2>it inoculations of a known type, and so then it

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<v Speaker 2>has like the one polio antibodies, right, and then you

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<v Speaker 2>extract the monkey's blood, you combine it with an unknown

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<v Speaker 2>type of polio, and then you inject it back into

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<v Speaker 2>the brain of an uninfected monkey. If the monkey doesn't

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<v Speaker 2>get sick, then the unknown type is similar to the

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<v Speaker 2>type that the inoculated monkey at antibioties against, right, Because

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<v Speaker 2>you're like, ah, well it was protected against this, you know, right, folks,

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<v Speaker 2>Maybe Salk I'm honestly suspicious of the shit I read

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<v Speaker 2>that talks him up at this point and attributes various

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<v Speaker 2>inventions to him. He figured out that you could use

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<v Speaker 2>mineral oil to make a smaller amount of a virus

0:11:36.320 --> 0:11:39.520
<v Speaker 2>cause a larger antibody response. That thing I talked about

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<v Speaker 2>earlier that I forget the name of it, and it

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<v Speaker 2>didn't write down on my script the word I'd never

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<v Speaker 2>heard before and couldn't pronounce. By using mineral oil, Salk's

0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:49.920
<v Speaker 2>team figured out that they could reduce the number of

0:11:49.960 --> 0:11:52.360
<v Speaker 2>monkeys who had to die in order to isolate each

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<v Speaker 2>type of polio. Previously, each type took forty monkeys. Now

0:11:58.440 --> 0:12:00.920
<v Speaker 2>they could do it with only fifteen monnkeys. That is

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<v Speaker 2>a saving of twenty five monkeys and if you want

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<v Speaker 2>to save well, I guess it's not really time for

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<v Speaker 2>an ad break, but that would have been so good.

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<v Speaker 2>Just imagine the.

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<v Speaker 3>Ads just do it early.

0:12:13.480 --> 0:12:16.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, fuck it, here's the ads. Save some monkeys, save

0:12:16.960 --> 0:12:21.200
<v Speaker 2>your own monkeys by spending other monkeys' lives on our

0:12:21.240 --> 0:12:22.280
<v Speaker 2>goods and services.

0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:27.960
<v Speaker 3>There you go, no rules here, some but not a lot.

0:12:28.240 --> 0:12:37.280
<v Speaker 2>Here they go and we're back. So they're doing this work.

0:12:37.760 --> 0:12:40.240
<v Speaker 2>And this is like the grunt labor of making a vaccine,

0:12:40.320 --> 0:12:44.360
<v Speaker 2>because you just like have to isolate every single known

0:12:44.520 --> 0:12:49.680
<v Speaker 2>type of polio. A man named Julius Jungner was on

0:12:49.840 --> 0:12:52.439
<v Speaker 2>Salk's team and was responsible for a lot of the

0:12:52.480 --> 0:12:57.480
<v Speaker 2>advancements that Sulk essentially took credit for. Julius had worked

0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:00.440
<v Speaker 2>on the Manhattan Project, so he was familiar with his

0:13:00.600 --> 0:13:03.520
<v Speaker 2>work having a seemingly positive end to some people and

0:13:03.600 --> 0:13:07.000
<v Speaker 2>a great deal of complicated. And why I don't even

0:13:07.000 --> 0:13:08.680
<v Speaker 2>see as complicated. It as bad that we dropped nukes

0:13:08.720 --> 0:13:11.600
<v Speaker 2>on cities full of innocent people. But you know whatever,

0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:15.080
<v Speaker 2>I can imagine during World War two being like, we

0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:17.760
<v Speaker 2>better develop this before the Nazis do. I could see

0:13:17.800 --> 0:13:22.320
<v Speaker 2>doing that, right, you know. He worked on that, and

0:13:22.360 --> 0:13:25.280
<v Speaker 2>then he moved to the University of Pittsburgh and he

0:13:25.360 --> 0:13:28.640
<v Speaker 2>developed a color test to determine how much virus is

0:13:28.679 --> 0:13:31.640
<v Speaker 2>in tissue, and this made the whole thing go faster.

0:13:32.679 --> 0:13:34.839
<v Speaker 2>He also figured out how to grow the virus in

0:13:34.960 --> 0:13:38.480
<v Speaker 2>large quantities, which is more or less the thing that

0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:41.960
<v Speaker 2>made the vaccine possible. As best as I can understand,

0:13:42.880 --> 0:13:45.640
<v Speaker 2>most of the rest of what Sulk's team did was

0:13:45.720 --> 0:13:48.160
<v Speaker 2>building on existing work and then just doing the work.

0:13:48.240 --> 0:13:50.439
<v Speaker 2>Like people were like, oh, we got to a menapolio vaccine.

0:13:50.840 --> 0:13:53.880
<v Speaker 2>These are the steps that are necessary, right because people

0:13:53.880 --> 0:13:56.440
<v Speaker 2>had already done the how are we going to do

0:13:56.520 --> 0:14:01.040
<v Speaker 2>this part? Except how are we going to get a

0:14:01.040 --> 0:14:04.199
<v Speaker 2>ton of poliovirus? So Julius Jungner is the one who

0:14:04.200 --> 0:14:07.360
<v Speaker 2>figures that out as far as they can tell, and

0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:09.600
<v Speaker 2>because you need a ton of poliovirus if you want

0:14:09.640 --> 0:14:12.160
<v Speaker 2>to inoculate the entire country and or the entire world.

0:14:13.040 --> 0:14:15.839
<v Speaker 2>He kept running up against the scientific establishment like he

0:14:15.880 --> 0:14:18.720
<v Speaker 2>would run up against the Committee on Typing, who kept

0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:20.560
<v Speaker 2>saying that like, no, none of us want to change

0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:23.000
<v Speaker 2>how we do things, and you need to stop being different,

0:14:24.280 --> 0:14:27.120
<v Speaker 2>is the way it is often presented, or they had

0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:29.760
<v Speaker 2>legitimate reasons against the stuff that these people were doing,

0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:31.880
<v Speaker 2>but people don't want to write about that because they

0:14:31.920 --> 0:14:37.400
<v Speaker 2>want to write about a hero. Salkin's team kind of

0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:41.400
<v Speaker 2>just did it anyway on the side, and to be fair,

0:14:41.440 --> 0:14:46.360
<v Speaker 2>they were probably right in this particular circumstance. They typed

0:14:46.400 --> 0:14:49.200
<v Speaker 2>seventy four strains of polio in a year in what

0:14:49.360 --> 0:14:55.080
<v Speaker 2>was expected to take three years, and they seemed to

0:14:55.120 --> 0:14:57.560
<v Speaker 2>do it right. It wasn't like about shortcuts. It was

0:14:57.600 --> 0:15:01.160
<v Speaker 2>about like finding better systems by which to do it.

0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:03.800
<v Speaker 2>And the committee was like, all right, fine, you always

0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:08.600
<v Speaker 2>all right, good enough. Twenty thousand monkeys died to type

0:15:08.640 --> 0:15:13.640
<v Speaker 2>polio and you're making a face of the who seems.

0:15:13.360 --> 0:15:23.440
<v Speaker 3>Like, no, oh my gosh, twenty thousand monkeys, it's terrible.

0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:28.280
<v Speaker 3>Let me. I know. It's interesting hearing this story now

0:15:29.520 --> 0:15:34.480
<v Speaker 3>because we've had so many developments since then, for good

0:15:34.560 --> 0:15:37.440
<v Speaker 3>and for bad, and some of them have, you know,

0:15:37.560 --> 0:15:42.000
<v Speaker 3>skewed us away from animal testing, but not always. But

0:15:42.080 --> 0:15:46.600
<v Speaker 3>also I find this whole hero story of Sock really

0:15:46.600 --> 0:15:51.280
<v Speaker 3>interesting because the parallels of what we're seeing now of

0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:56.040
<v Speaker 3>the anti vax movement is very much it feels in

0:15:56.080 --> 0:15:59.520
<v Speaker 3>line with what he was all about right, which is like,

0:15:59.840 --> 0:16:04.280
<v Speaker 3>no science establishment for me. I'm gonna do this, And

0:16:04.320 --> 0:16:07.040
<v Speaker 3>so it's strange to have.

0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:09.920
<v Speaker 2>These He's a move fast and brain things guy.

0:16:10.040 --> 0:16:14.000
<v Speaker 3>But he was doing it four vaccines, and now we

0:16:14.080 --> 0:16:16.440
<v Speaker 3>have it against vaccines.

0:16:17.040 --> 0:16:20.960
<v Speaker 2>I know, as I'm writing this, I'm like, man, if

0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:27.160
<v Speaker 2>RFK didn't hate this guy, you'd probably love this guy exactly, like, yeah,

0:16:27.480 --> 0:16:32.040
<v Speaker 2>it's a trip. So twenty thousand monkeys die, which is

0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:34.560
<v Speaker 2>less than it would have been without some developments that

0:16:34.560 --> 0:16:36.560
<v Speaker 2>they made. I don't know. I don't know to do

0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:41.440
<v Speaker 2>math like that. I try not to. And there were

0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:44.520
<v Speaker 2>and are three broad types of polio, types one, two,

0:16:44.600 --> 0:16:46.880
<v Speaker 2>and three, which is fairly easy to remember how many

0:16:46.920 --> 0:16:51.560
<v Speaker 2>there are. Type one is eighty percent of cases, and

0:16:51.600 --> 0:16:53.880
<v Speaker 2>then types two and three are about ten percent of

0:16:53.920 --> 0:16:58.840
<v Speaker 2>cases each. Type two is almost entirely benign, Type three

0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:02.000
<v Speaker 2>is the deadliest, and type one is the typical paralytic

0:17:02.120 --> 0:17:07.720
<v Speaker 2>one that we talked about. Fortunately for our researchers, there

0:17:07.800 --> 0:17:11.080
<v Speaker 2>just wasn't a ton of variants in polo like influenza,

0:17:11.560 --> 0:17:15.760
<v Speaker 2>so it was a very good candidate for vaccines. When

0:17:15.760 --> 0:17:19.439
<v Speaker 2>people started growing polio on purpose, they grew it in

0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.399
<v Speaker 2>the nervous systems of human fetuses dead ones in the

0:17:22.480 --> 0:17:28.200
<v Speaker 2>nineteen thirties. By nineteen forty nine, some folks in Boston

0:17:28.280 --> 0:17:31.240
<v Speaker 2>managed to grow it onto other human tissue like skin

0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:34.680
<v Speaker 2>and muscle and kidney, and that got other people the

0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:38.399
<v Speaker 2>Nobel Prize. In nineteen fifty four. People are like, how

0:17:38.480 --> 0:17:40.720
<v Speaker 2>come Salk never got a Nobel Prize? But this is

0:17:40.760 --> 0:17:43.960
<v Speaker 2>the only Nobel Prize for polio that happened. Is that

0:17:43.960 --> 0:17:48.000
<v Speaker 2>people figure how to grow it on different tissue. And

0:17:48.080 --> 0:17:51.080
<v Speaker 2>Saul was like, all right, that's a good idea, and

0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:53.359
<v Speaker 2>so he grew it in monkey tissue, a mix of

0:17:53.359 --> 0:17:56.040
<v Speaker 2>testes and kidneys. This might have been the part that

0:17:56.080 --> 0:18:00.159
<v Speaker 2>was Yogner's idea. That's my combining two different sources is

0:18:00.200 --> 0:18:03.840
<v Speaker 2>to come with my own conjecture. Now they can bulk

0:18:03.880 --> 0:18:07.800
<v Speaker 2>make polio, and they understand the types of polio, and

0:18:07.840 --> 0:18:10.280
<v Speaker 2>so it's just time to start doing it. They pick

0:18:10.359 --> 0:18:13.480
<v Speaker 2>the most antibody producing strains of each type of polio

0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:18.000
<v Speaker 2>and not coincidentally, also the most dangerous, and then they

0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:22.720
<v Speaker 2>use formaldehyde to quote unquote kill the virus. More technically,

0:18:22.760 --> 0:18:28.560
<v Speaker 2>this inactivates the virus. Sulk was fantastically good at science communication.

0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:31.880
<v Speaker 2>This is maybe the one thing you can't really take

0:18:31.920 --> 0:18:34.199
<v Speaker 2>away from him. He was good at explaining ideas to

0:18:34.240 --> 0:18:36.359
<v Speaker 2>a broad audience. Which is funny though, because then I

0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:37.840
<v Speaker 2>read a whole bunch of excerpts of one of his

0:18:37.920 --> 0:18:42.439
<v Speaker 2>later biophilosophy books, and I'm like, no, this is incredibly

0:18:42.440 --> 0:18:45.560
<v Speaker 2>badly written. Like it is like comically badly written.

0:18:46.119 --> 0:18:48.119
<v Speaker 3>Do you think people were just talking him up? Or

0:18:48.200 --> 0:18:49.600
<v Speaker 3>was it like a thing of the time.

0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:52.760
<v Speaker 2>I think he was good on camera, and his biophilosophy

0:18:52.760 --> 0:18:56.400
<v Speaker 2>books are later he basically win that out right. He's

0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:57.879
<v Speaker 2>like high on his own supply, and he's like, I

0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:00.399
<v Speaker 2>do whatever I want. I'm a biophilosopher. Now what is that?

0:19:00.440 --> 0:19:01.800
<v Speaker 2>And he's like, let me tell you, And they're like,

0:19:01.800 --> 0:19:04.679
<v Speaker 2>I wish I had never asked. I'm so sorry. He

0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:07.679
<v Speaker 2>spent more and more time in the limelight, talking to

0:19:07.760 --> 0:19:11.600
<v Speaker 2>newspapers and radio audiences and bringing photographers into the lab,

0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:14.040
<v Speaker 2>which is no longer a forty by forty basement, it

0:19:14.119 --> 0:19:18.760
<v Speaker 2>is several floors and thousands of square feet. June nineteen

0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:22.159
<v Speaker 2>fifty two was the worst outbreak of polio and human

0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:24.679
<v Speaker 2>history so far. I would have just said in human history,

0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:27.000
<v Speaker 2>but you know, we have the future to look forward

0:19:27.040 --> 0:19:31.040
<v Speaker 2>to now, and Salk has something of a vaccine in

0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:36.760
<v Speaker 2>the works, so they started limited testing. So he headed

0:19:36.800 --> 0:19:39.600
<v Speaker 2>on out to the DT Watson Home for Crippled Children

0:19:39.960 --> 0:19:44.600
<v Speaker 2>to test the vaccine on polio victims. This time parents

0:19:44.640 --> 0:19:47.960
<v Speaker 2>were asked for consent. I mean, I think he's just

0:19:48.080 --> 0:19:50.879
<v Speaker 2>kids for consent, but you know, at least progress is

0:19:50.920 --> 0:19:54.399
<v Speaker 2>being made along consent lines. The kids would not be

0:19:54.520 --> 0:19:57.439
<v Speaker 2>helped in any way by this, because like, if you

0:19:57.480 --> 0:20:00.000
<v Speaker 2>test a vaccine on people who've never gotten the disease,

0:20:00.640 --> 0:20:05.640
<v Speaker 2>at least if it works, they are now vaccinated, right,

0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:09.560
<v Speaker 2>But these kids have already gotten polio. It is a

0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:11.920
<v Speaker 2>good way to test for antibodies and side effects, and

0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:16.600
<v Speaker 2>it's basically the kids like helping science at some risk

0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.760
<v Speaker 2>to themselves, but not great risk to themselves. No one

0:20:19.800 --> 0:20:22.520
<v Speaker 2>had adverse effects, and all of them got more antibodies.

0:20:23.920 --> 0:20:27.800
<v Speaker 2>So then he tested on crippled children without polio. This

0:20:27.880 --> 0:20:30.960
<v Speaker 2>is the way it was phrased at the time, and

0:20:31.680 --> 0:20:35.119
<v Speaker 2>this sounds awful, but it makes some sense. If you

0:20:35.200 --> 0:20:37.959
<v Speaker 2>test this on someone who's already not able to use

0:20:38.000 --> 0:20:41.440
<v Speaker 2>their limbs, if they accidentally get polio, they're less likely

0:20:41.520 --> 0:20:45.040
<v Speaker 2>to get worse than they already are. This could still

0:20:45.119 --> 0:20:48.560
<v Speaker 2>kill them, though all twenty seven in the second trial

0:20:48.600 --> 0:20:53.760
<v Speaker 2>were fine. Then they tested the kid's blood on monkey

0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:58.399
<v Speaker 2>kidney cells and that worked too. Then he worked on

0:20:58.480 --> 0:21:02.840
<v Speaker 2>sixty three kids with mental disabate, which the justification that

0:21:02.960 --> 0:21:06.600
<v Speaker 2>salkas is that they are already isolated from society and illness,

0:21:06.680 --> 0:21:08.800
<v Speaker 2>so they haven't been as exposed to illness, so they're

0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:12.120
<v Speaker 2>a blank slate, and they have a lot of health records.

0:21:13.080 --> 0:21:15.399
<v Speaker 2>Not all of these kids have parents who could consent,

0:21:15.960 --> 0:21:19.159
<v Speaker 2>but don't worry. The state's Department of Welfare provided that consent.

0:21:19.359 --> 0:21:20.399
<v Speaker 3>No, I'm a little worried.

0:21:21.880 --> 0:21:26.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, no, I'm wanted to and to be fair and

0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:29.000
<v Speaker 2>or this is what the people who write really glowing

0:21:29.040 --> 0:21:32.720
<v Speaker 2>things about him say. He worried like hell as he

0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:37.080
<v Speaker 2>did this, he said of doing these trials. Quote, when

0:21:37.119 --> 0:21:40.120
<v Speaker 2>you inoculate children with a polio vaccine for the first time,

0:21:40.520 --> 0:21:44.040
<v Speaker 2>you don't sleep well for two or three weeks. And

0:21:44.119 --> 0:21:47.320
<v Speaker 2>like he probably said that, and he probably meant it.

0:21:47.640 --> 0:21:51.840
<v Speaker 2>Like everything I've read about him, he is aware of

0:21:51.880 --> 0:21:54.199
<v Speaker 2>the human impacts of what he's doing and sees it

0:21:54.240 --> 0:21:57.720
<v Speaker 2>as a greater good thing. But he's not callous about it,

0:21:58.000 --> 0:22:00.800
<v Speaker 2>you know. Yeah, he's maybe a little cavalier.

0:22:02.240 --> 0:22:06.280
<v Speaker 3>He sounds like a I'm trying to wrap my mind around.

0:22:07.560 --> 0:22:11.280
<v Speaker 3>He feels like the science version of Oh, I want

0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:14.040
<v Speaker 3>to be remembered. I want to do this great thing totally.

0:22:14.280 --> 0:22:16.879
<v Speaker 3>I want to be known for this in the history books.

0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:18.520
<v Speaker 2>He talks about that shit constantly.

0:22:19.359 --> 0:22:22.399
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, he has that vibe, which can be very I

0:22:22.440 --> 0:22:24.560
<v Speaker 3>don't care how many monkeys have to die. I'm in

0:22:24.640 --> 0:22:28.359
<v Speaker 3>the kids I have to experiment on. But at the

0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:32.639
<v Speaker 3>same time, it also sounds like it wasn't all about

0:22:32.840 --> 0:22:35.240
<v Speaker 3>I just want to be remembered. He actually did want

0:22:35.320 --> 0:22:38.080
<v Speaker 3>to get to this vaccine. Yeah.

0:22:38.560 --> 0:22:41.320
<v Speaker 2>I think at the end of the day, his goal

0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:45.160
<v Speaker 2>was to cure polio, not to become rich and famous, like.

0:22:45.160 --> 0:22:46.840
<v Speaker 3>Which makes it all the more complicated.

0:22:47.119 --> 0:22:52.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, and like, this is what it took to

0:22:53.000 --> 0:22:58.520
<v Speaker 2>save so many millions of children's lives. You know, this

0:22:58.600 --> 0:23:00.560
<v Speaker 2>doesn't mean that was the way that it should have

0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:02.639
<v Speaker 2>been done or had to have been done, but it

0:23:02.720 --> 0:23:07.800
<v Speaker 2>is the way that it was done. Right in the

0:23:07.880 --> 0:23:11.440
<v Speaker 2>children's hospitals, he had incredible bedside manner. He would laugh

0:23:11.480 --> 0:23:13.639
<v Speaker 2>at the kids, he would talk through their fears he

0:23:13.640 --> 0:23:20.840
<v Speaker 2>would answer questions. And I think this does matter because

0:23:20.920 --> 0:23:24.600
<v Speaker 2>part of the evil dystopia of like doctor's non consent

0:23:24.720 --> 0:23:28.640
<v Speaker 2>whatever is the like they're just gonna ignore you. You're

0:23:28.680 --> 0:23:33.479
<v Speaker 2>just there, you're just meet you know, I said earlier,

0:23:33.520 --> 0:23:35.600
<v Speaker 2>this is the style of how it's done. At the time.

0:23:35.760 --> 0:23:37.960
<v Speaker 2>When he presented his findings in nineteen fifty three to

0:23:38.000 --> 0:23:40.960
<v Speaker 2>the Committee on Immunization, they were like, you did fucking

0:23:41.000 --> 0:23:49.760
<v Speaker 2>what hold up? Yeah, And then the whole thing leaked

0:23:49.760 --> 0:23:54.080
<v Speaker 2>to the press, and I wouldn't Maybe someone does know

0:23:54.160 --> 0:23:56.000
<v Speaker 2>and has written about who leaked it to the press.

0:23:56.160 --> 0:23:59.000
<v Speaker 2>I don't know. I leaned towards this man leaking it

0:23:59.040 --> 0:24:01.080
<v Speaker 2>towards the press. I didn't lean towards that when I

0:24:01.119 --> 0:24:04.440
<v Speaker 2>wrote this script, but I like, as I learned more,

0:24:05.400 --> 0:24:07.400
<v Speaker 2>the whole thing leaked to the press, that the polio

0:24:07.480 --> 0:24:09.919
<v Speaker 2>vaccine was almost ready. It didn't leak to the press

0:24:09.960 --> 0:24:13.440
<v Speaker 2>like testing on children. It was hey, we think we

0:24:13.520 --> 0:24:16.359
<v Speaker 2>have a polio vaccine, which is true. They did think

0:24:16.400 --> 0:24:18.479
<v Speaker 2>they had a polio vaccine because they did have a

0:24:18.480 --> 0:24:22.280
<v Speaker 2>polio vaccine. So we talked to the press and he

0:24:22.440 --> 0:24:24.960
<v Speaker 2>was like, Hey, I'm actually just cautiously optimistic and the

0:24:24.960 --> 0:24:28.080
<v Speaker 2>press was like hooray, we're saved. And they called it

0:24:28.119 --> 0:24:30.320
<v Speaker 2>the Salk vaccine, and he was like, please don't call

0:24:30.359 --> 0:24:32.359
<v Speaker 2>it that. But I don't know whether he was actually like,

0:24:32.400 --> 0:24:33.879
<v Speaker 2>please don't call it that, or if he was like,

0:24:34.000 --> 0:24:37.399
<v Speaker 2>oh no, please don't call it the Sulk vaccine. My

0:24:37.480 --> 0:24:39.840
<v Speaker 2>middle name, by the way, is Edward, you know, like

0:24:40.080 --> 0:24:43.360
<v Speaker 2>I just don't write. And people are mad at him

0:24:43.359 --> 0:24:46.399
<v Speaker 2>in the scientific world, and Jonas E. Salk is getting

0:24:46.440 --> 0:24:48.720
<v Speaker 2>called Jonas E. Christ by the people who are mad

0:24:48.720 --> 0:24:50.800
<v Speaker 2>at him.

0:24:50.840 --> 0:24:51.480
<v Speaker 3>Interesting.

0:24:52.119 --> 0:24:54.840
<v Speaker 2>Some reports say he hated the public life. Some say

0:24:54.880 --> 0:24:58.399
<v Speaker 2>he reveled in it. I don't fucking know.

0:25:01.440 --> 0:25:04.960
<v Speaker 3>Jonahs E. Christ, I know, which.

0:25:04.760 --> 0:25:06.239
<v Speaker 2>Is funny because actually when he was a little kid

0:25:06.240 --> 0:25:08.040
<v Speaker 2>and he kept talking about He's gonna save everyone, people

0:25:08.119 --> 0:25:10.440
<v Speaker 2>used to call him like something like Jonas Christ or

0:25:10.480 --> 0:25:13.359
<v Speaker 2>something like that. And it's like a really funny nickname

0:25:13.400 --> 0:25:14.840
<v Speaker 2>to give a Jewish kid too, you know.

0:25:15.359 --> 0:25:18.320
<v Speaker 3>Right, yes, pretty good. And then he got the added

0:25:20.080 --> 0:25:21.760
<v Speaker 3>middle name that was given to you.

0:25:22.000 --> 0:25:28.639
<v Speaker 2>Yeah. At this point, totally wonderful father in law. So

0:25:28.680 --> 0:25:31.199
<v Speaker 2>at this point, the figure they might be ready for

0:25:31.280 --> 0:25:35.080
<v Speaker 2>broader trials. The public needs this vaccine, and there are

0:25:35.119 --> 0:25:39.160
<v Speaker 2>two groups that are opposed to this public trial. One

0:25:39.480 --> 0:25:43.360
<v Speaker 2>had a point the people who support his direct competitor,

0:25:43.760 --> 0:25:47.320
<v Speaker 2>Albert Sabin, who was convinced that the dead virus vaccine

0:25:47.400 --> 0:25:52.040
<v Speaker 2>is dangerous. Saulk was using the most virulent type one strain,

0:25:52.520 --> 0:25:55.720
<v Speaker 2>so if any remained active formaldehyde didn't kill at all,

0:25:56.480 --> 0:26:00.720
<v Speaker 2>the patient would die. And formaldehyde in act activation was

0:26:00.720 --> 0:26:04.000
<v Speaker 2>not particularly well studied at this time, and there was

0:26:04.200 --> 0:26:06.920
<v Speaker 2>no evidence that the dead virus approach would lead to

0:26:07.040 --> 0:26:12.879
<v Speaker 2>lasting immunity. Sabin was pushing for a live virus oral vaccine,

0:26:13.400 --> 0:26:18.840
<v Speaker 2>but that comes later, and then you've got early anti vaxers.

0:26:19.440 --> 0:26:20.400
<v Speaker 3>Woo.

0:26:21.480 --> 0:26:25.480
<v Speaker 2>A celebrity entertainment journalist, a podcaster of his day was

0:26:25.520 --> 0:26:28.760
<v Speaker 2>this guy, Walter Winshell. Apparently he's one of the originators

0:26:28.760 --> 0:26:32.199
<v Speaker 2>of the news's entertainment in radio and TV, and he

0:26:32.320 --> 0:26:34.760
<v Speaker 2>stirred up mass hysteria about how the vaccine was going

0:26:34.800 --> 0:26:37.920
<v Speaker 2>to kill all the school children. In response to the

0:26:37.960 --> 0:26:40.520
<v Speaker 2>Sok was like, I just vaccinated myself and all my children,

0:26:41.000 --> 0:26:46.640
<v Speaker 2>which is true. And so in nineteen fifty four they

0:26:46.640 --> 0:26:50.040
<v Speaker 2>have the first big clinical trial. It is the largest

0:26:50.040 --> 0:26:52.600
<v Speaker 2>clinical trial in history up to that point in the US.

0:26:53.320 --> 0:26:57.120
<v Speaker 2>One point five million kids were in the test. Six

0:26:57.200 --> 0:27:00.480
<v Speaker 2>hundred thousand of them got the vaccine. It was a

0:27:00.520 --> 0:27:04.480
<v Speaker 2>series of three shots, and the trial was a massive success.

0:27:04.760 --> 0:27:08.359
<v Speaker 2>And here's a chunk of like the thousands and thousands

0:27:08.359 --> 0:27:10.040
<v Speaker 2>of people left out of this story who did a

0:27:10.119 --> 0:27:13.840
<v Speaker 2>ton of work? Is that coordinating this thing was a

0:27:14.040 --> 0:27:17.000
<v Speaker 2>public health undertaking on an incredible level because you are

0:27:17.119 --> 0:27:21.040
<v Speaker 2>tracking all of those one point five million people, and

0:27:21.080 --> 0:27:23.960
<v Speaker 2>you're doing it like more or less before computers. Like

0:27:24.160 --> 0:27:25.160
<v Speaker 2>people did a lot of work.

0:27:26.040 --> 0:27:29.520
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and for three shots, Oh gosh.

0:27:29.640 --> 0:27:31.199
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I think it's like one shot and then a

0:27:31.240 --> 0:27:34.600
<v Speaker 2>month later, and then there's one shot a week later,

0:27:34.680 --> 0:27:35.480
<v Speaker 2>and then a month later.

0:27:36.200 --> 0:27:37.560
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:27:38.000 --> 0:27:40.520
<v Speaker 2>I think the most accurate headline I saw about this

0:27:40.640 --> 0:27:43.520
<v Speaker 2>was from an obituary of Sulk that this isn't the

0:27:43.520 --> 0:27:47.760
<v Speaker 2>polio vaccine that eradicated polio, but it was the polio

0:27:47.840 --> 0:27:55.480
<v Speaker 2>vaccine that quote turned the tide against polio. Jonas Salk

0:27:55.760 --> 0:27:58.359
<v Speaker 2>gave this big speech in nineteen fifty five when they

0:27:58.400 --> 0:28:01.719
<v Speaker 2>announced the test results that it worked, the vaccine worked,

0:28:02.040 --> 0:28:04.920
<v Speaker 2>we were going to stop polio. He thanked a ton

0:28:04.960 --> 0:28:08.600
<v Speaker 2>of people. He did not think his team.

0:28:08.440 --> 0:28:12.920
<v Speaker 3>Or anyone on it, what are god interesting?

0:28:14.960 --> 0:28:19.320
<v Speaker 2>Ah huh? They all left crying.

0:28:20.240 --> 0:28:22.760
<v Speaker 3>Oh that's sad. He got up there and he was like,

0:28:23.160 --> 0:28:23.800
<v Speaker 3>you're welcome.

0:28:23.960 --> 0:28:25.760
<v Speaker 2>It was all me, Yeah, totally.

0:28:25.880 --> 0:28:27.919
<v Speaker 3>And you keep waiting for your name, you know, or

0:28:27.960 --> 0:28:29.119
<v Speaker 3>some kind of recognition.

0:28:29.200 --> 0:28:32.040
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, this person usually working side by side with who's

0:28:32.040 --> 0:28:33.840
<v Speaker 2>like kind of already taking credit for your work, and

0:28:33.880 --> 0:28:35.320
<v Speaker 2>you're like, ah, but now he's going to say my

0:28:35.400 --> 0:28:41.760
<v Speaker 2>name at least finally. Yeah, right, never comes Youngner, the

0:28:41.800 --> 0:28:43.920
<v Speaker 2>guy who had actually invented a lot of the important shit,

0:28:44.480 --> 0:28:48.840
<v Speaker 2>said about this moment quote people really held it against

0:28:48.920 --> 0:28:51.720
<v Speaker 2>him that he had grand standard like that and really

0:28:51.760 --> 0:28:57.320
<v Speaker 2>done the most uncollegial thing that you can imagine. Jonah Sulk,

0:28:57.440 --> 0:29:01.000
<v Speaker 2>for his part, never apologized for this and only spoke

0:29:01.040 --> 0:29:04.560
<v Speaker 2>with Younger again once in their lives.

0:29:06.200 --> 0:29:07.800
<v Speaker 3>Do we know how this meeting went?

0:29:08.520 --> 0:29:12.280
<v Speaker 2>I don't. I wish I did. Younger like later was like,

0:29:12.560 --> 0:29:14.400
<v Speaker 2>I mean, he would say all kinds of shit about

0:29:14.400 --> 0:29:16.280
<v Speaker 2>what had happened, but he would still also kind of

0:29:16.280 --> 0:29:18.120
<v Speaker 2>a team player, where he didn't try and tear down

0:29:18.160 --> 0:29:21.680
<v Speaker 2>the vaccine and even Younger's coming out of this looking good.

0:29:22.280 --> 0:29:25.120
<v Speaker 2>Younger had even more damning stuff to say about Salk, though.

0:29:25.720 --> 0:29:30.680
<v Speaker 2>When you read about the incidents of vaccines mishaps right,

0:29:30.720 --> 0:29:34.640
<v Speaker 2>which are like things that fuel anti vaccentiment today. There

0:29:34.640 --> 0:29:37.960
<v Speaker 2>was something called the Cutter incident. There was a pharmaceutical

0:29:37.960 --> 0:29:41.360
<v Speaker 2>company called Cutter. Because we live in this weird country

0:29:41.400 --> 0:29:43.680
<v Speaker 2>where everything has to be done through all these private corporations,

0:29:43.800 --> 0:29:46.240
<v Speaker 2>there's a bunch of different companies doing the vaccines, right,

0:29:46.680 --> 0:29:48.479
<v Speaker 2>and so the Salk vaccine is made by a lot

0:29:48.520 --> 0:29:52.920
<v Speaker 2>of different places, and this one pharmaceutical company, Cutter, wasn't

0:29:53.240 --> 0:29:58.479
<v Speaker 2>inactivating the virus effectively. This killed eleven people because it

0:29:58.560 --> 0:30:01.720
<v Speaker 2>caused the numbers in front of me anymore about a

0:30:01.800 --> 0:30:06.600
<v Speaker 2>thousand people to get polio. Younger had seen the problems

0:30:06.600 --> 0:30:10.360
<v Speaker 2>at the Cutter laboratories factory and told Sulk about them,

0:30:11.480 --> 0:30:14.240
<v Speaker 2>and then Sulk, as far as Younger can tell, didn't

0:30:14.240 --> 0:30:18.480
<v Speaker 2>do anything about it, because that still happened. It's still

0:30:18.840 --> 0:30:22.239
<v Speaker 2>like went forward and people got the Cutter vaccine and

0:30:22.280 --> 0:30:28.480
<v Speaker 2>people died. And then in an interview Sulk went on,

0:30:28.480 --> 0:30:30.480
<v Speaker 2>I think it was TV, and he was like, you know,

0:30:30.560 --> 0:30:34.560
<v Speaker 2>I wouldn't pat in this vaccine because quote, how can

0:30:34.560 --> 0:30:40.120
<v Speaker 2>you pat in the sun? What a guy? Right? Well, sure,

0:30:41.800 --> 0:30:44.720
<v Speaker 2>it turns out he and his team had been looking

0:30:44.720 --> 0:30:47.760
<v Speaker 2>into patenting it, but their attorney told them they didn't

0:30:47.800 --> 0:30:50.720
<v Speaker 2>have a chance in hell of successfully pattenting it because

0:30:50.760 --> 0:30:53.080
<v Speaker 2>it was built on prior work. It was not a

0:30:53.160 --> 0:30:53.800
<v Speaker 2>new invention.

0:30:55.680 --> 0:30:58.560
<v Speaker 3>Don't you love it when someone's like, oh, I never

0:30:58.640 --> 0:31:00.960
<v Speaker 3>would have done that, Yeah, and then you find out

0:31:01.000 --> 0:31:03.440
<v Speaker 3>later they definitely tried to do it.

0:31:03.600 --> 0:31:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, totally. This is like one of the main things

0:31:07.040 --> 0:31:10.200
<v Speaker 2>that is like held up as like this whenever there's

0:31:10.240 --> 0:31:14.240
<v Speaker 2>like a fucking meme level like Instagram post about Salk

0:31:14.240 --> 0:31:16.640
<v Speaker 2>and the polio vaccine or whatever it's like. And he

0:31:16.680 --> 0:31:20.280
<v Speaker 2>refused to patent it because how can you patent the sun?

0:31:20.600 --> 0:31:25.560
<v Speaker 2>You know, you're like, well, their attorney had just told him, quote,

0:31:25.640 --> 0:31:28.080
<v Speaker 2>if there were any patentable novelty to be found in

0:31:28.080 --> 0:31:31.880
<v Speaker 2>this phase, it would lie within an extremely narrow scope

0:31:31.960 --> 0:31:33.400
<v Speaker 2>and be of doubtful value.

0:31:34.440 --> 0:31:36.280
<v Speaker 3>Doubtful value.

0:31:37.400 --> 0:31:41.400
<v Speaker 2>One guy Da Henderson, who's another like public health virus researcher. Guy.

0:31:42.040 --> 0:31:43.840
<v Speaker 2>I almost fell down another rabbit hole about him, and

0:31:43.840 --> 0:31:47.800
<v Speaker 2>then I didn't. He has successfully fought smallpox, he put it. Quote.

0:31:48.520 --> 0:31:51.160
<v Speaker 2>Jonas came in at this point with pretty much everything

0:31:51.240 --> 0:31:54.680
<v Speaker 2>done except for moving on to wider scale human trials.

0:31:55.560 --> 0:31:59.160
<v Speaker 2>This vaccine helped a lot. It is a good vaccine.

0:31:59.240 --> 0:32:01.240
<v Speaker 2>It is what I got as a kid. Probably it

0:32:01.280 --> 0:32:03.640
<v Speaker 2>is probably what you, dear listener got as a kid

0:32:03.680 --> 0:32:08.640
<v Speaker 2>if you were raised in America. The rollout was uneven

0:32:09.320 --> 0:32:12.880
<v Speaker 2>at the time, According to an article in the MIT

0:32:12.960 --> 0:32:19.120
<v Speaker 2>Technology Review written by Angela Matsayak in two thousand and five, quote,

0:32:19.640 --> 0:32:23.440
<v Speaker 2>by nineteen sixty, less than one third of the population

0:32:23.680 --> 0:32:26.520
<v Speaker 2>under forty years of age had received the full course

0:32:26.560 --> 0:32:29.760
<v Speaker 2>of three doses of the Salk vaccine plus a booster.

0:32:30.920 --> 0:32:33.800
<v Speaker 2>Most of those who had were white and from middle

0:32:33.840 --> 0:32:38.320
<v Speaker 2>and upper economic classes. The disease raged on in urban

0:32:38.360 --> 0:32:42.240
<v Speaker 2>areas among African Americans and Puerto Ricans, and in certain

0:32:42.320 --> 0:32:46.640
<v Speaker 2>rural locales among Native Americans and members of isolated religious groups.

0:32:49.120 --> 0:32:54.000
<v Speaker 2>Angela also says quote. While Salk's vaccine did slow down

0:32:54.040 --> 0:32:58.200
<v Speaker 2>the incidents of polio among middle class Americans, its cost

0:32:58.320 --> 0:33:01.080
<v Speaker 2>and its requirement of three in jactions and a booster

0:33:01.760 --> 0:33:04.920
<v Speaker 2>meant that for years the disease continued to affect the

0:33:04.960 --> 0:33:08.760
<v Speaker 2>poor and others lacking access to proper medical care. It

0:33:08.800 --> 0:33:12.720
<v Speaker 2>was only after Albert Sabin's oral vaccine, which was cheap,

0:33:12.800 --> 0:33:16.600
<v Speaker 2>effective and easy to administer, was licensed for production in

0:33:16.680 --> 0:33:20.680
<v Speaker 2>nineteen sixty two that polio could be fully controlled in

0:33:20.720 --> 0:33:28.080
<v Speaker 2>the United States. So there's another problem too, right, They've

0:33:28.120 --> 0:33:30.560
<v Speaker 2>just developed this new vaccine, not the new new one,

0:33:30.600 --> 0:33:34.960
<v Speaker 2>but the AsSalt one. But America was so afraid of

0:33:35.000 --> 0:33:38.720
<v Speaker 2>communism that it couldn't be a public campaign of vaccination.

0:33:39.400 --> 0:33:43.800
<v Speaker 2>It had to come from the nonprofit, and that nonprofit,

0:33:43.800 --> 0:33:47.040
<v Speaker 2>the Anti Communist Org that sponsored the whole thing, had

0:33:47.040 --> 0:33:50.560
<v Speaker 2>a total of nine million shots available. That was not

0:33:50.720 --> 0:33:54.160
<v Speaker 2>nearly enough. Everyone needed at least three or four. But

0:33:55.480 --> 0:34:01.719
<v Speaker 2>what they did need was products and services, because that's

0:34:01.760 --> 0:34:07.080
<v Speaker 2>how you really defeat communism is products and or services,

0:34:07.440 --> 0:34:09.360
<v Speaker 2>of which there are none in countries that are not

0:34:09.400 --> 0:34:13.120
<v Speaker 2>the United States of America. Obviously famously, that's why we

0:34:13.120 --> 0:34:15.480
<v Speaker 2>don't need to do global trade anymore, and we all

0:34:15.560 --> 0:34:19.120
<v Speaker 2>can buy iPhones that were made in America.

0:34:20.480 --> 0:34:21.560
<v Speaker 3>It's just clear.

0:34:21.880 --> 0:34:24.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I don't see any problem with any of this,

0:34:25.080 --> 0:34:28.920
<v Speaker 2>and if I did, I'd be a trader. And I'm anyway, whatever,

0:34:28.960 --> 0:34:38.040
<v Speaker 2>here's a bunch of ads, and we're back. If I

0:34:38.080 --> 0:34:40.319
<v Speaker 2>ever come back to this topic, it'll be to do

0:34:40.360 --> 0:34:43.000
<v Speaker 2>a deeper dive on Albert Sabin and the vaccine that

0:34:43.040 --> 0:34:45.840
<v Speaker 2>defeated polio worldwide. The thing I thought I was writing

0:34:45.880 --> 0:34:49.759
<v Speaker 2>about when I got biographies about fucking anyway. But this

0:34:49.880 --> 0:34:54.760
<v Speaker 2>was my eleventh hour surprise during my research. So Albert

0:34:54.800 --> 0:35:00.719
<v Speaker 2>Sabin he was born Abram Sepperstein in nineteen eighteen in

0:35:00.800 --> 0:35:03.160
<v Speaker 2>the now Polish city of Bali, stock Well. It was

0:35:03.160 --> 0:35:04.920
<v Speaker 2>always Polish, but it was part of the Russian Empire.

0:35:06.719 --> 0:35:08.640
<v Speaker 2>And when he came to the States in nineteen thirty

0:35:08.719 --> 0:35:11.719
<v Speaker 2>or so with his parents, they anglicized his name. He

0:35:11.800 --> 0:35:16.719
<v Speaker 2>became Albert Saven. He spent World War Two traveling all

0:35:16.760 --> 0:35:19.680
<v Speaker 2>over the world helping develop vaccines against the insect born

0:35:19.760 --> 0:35:25.319
<v Speaker 2>diseases that soldiers were getting. He basically like did all

0:35:25.360 --> 0:35:28.240
<v Speaker 2>the stuff that people claimed Sock did.

0:35:28.880 --> 0:35:33.360
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, it's like sock is the even though the inverse

0:35:33.840 --> 0:35:37.239
<v Speaker 3>in terms of the timeline, he's basically like the inspiration

0:35:37.480 --> 0:35:41.400
<v Speaker 3>for socks, like the movie character you see, Yeah, at

0:35:41.560 --> 0:35:43.120
<v Speaker 3>least the one that was actually out there too.

0:35:43.239 --> 0:35:47.880
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And he wanted a live vaccine for polio, and

0:35:47.960 --> 0:35:50.000
<v Speaker 2>some of this was like he just sort of believed

0:35:50.000 --> 0:35:54.040
<v Speaker 2>in the axiom that dead vaccines don't solve viral problems

0:35:54.080 --> 0:35:58.680
<v Speaker 2>or whatever, right, But all public support for his vaccine

0:35:59.360 --> 0:36:03.440
<v Speaker 2>disappeared because the Salk vaccine dropped even though it didn't

0:36:03.480 --> 0:36:06.799
<v Speaker 2>eradicate polio, because it wasn't able to be rolled out enough.

0:36:08.320 --> 0:36:12.080
<v Speaker 2>So he started collaborating internationally because he couldn't get support

0:36:12.120 --> 0:36:15.120
<v Speaker 2>in the United States. Famously, anyone who listens to the

0:36:15.120 --> 0:36:19.600
<v Speaker 2>show knows that I'm not a big USSR person. The

0:36:19.640 --> 0:36:23.960
<v Speaker 2>mass testing for the vaccine that eradicated polio happened in

0:36:24.000 --> 0:36:29.360
<v Speaker 2>the USSR. Salk and Sobin were actually both invited to

0:36:29.400 --> 0:36:34.920
<v Speaker 2>the USSR, but Salk didn't go and Sabin did. So

0:36:36.200 --> 0:36:38.920
<v Speaker 2>one hundred million people in the USSR were part of

0:36:38.960 --> 0:36:43.160
<v Speaker 2>those trials from nineteen fifty five to nineteen sixty one.

0:36:43.320 --> 0:36:47.880
<v Speaker 2>And it worked. So you have this oral vaccine and

0:36:47.920 --> 0:36:51.800
<v Speaker 2>it uses a live virus. Because it's a live virus,

0:36:52.239 --> 0:36:56.160
<v Speaker 2>it creates a stronger immune response and gives longer lasting protection.

0:36:57.000 --> 0:36:59.319
<v Speaker 2>You don't need needles to administer it. They put it

0:36:59.360 --> 0:37:01.480
<v Speaker 2>on a sugarcue. This is where the whole spoonful of

0:37:01.480 --> 0:37:03.680
<v Speaker 2>sugar makes the medicine go down. Thing. Apparently like it

0:37:03.719 --> 0:37:06.160
<v Speaker 2>was like a reference to this, Oh, I don't know

0:37:07.280 --> 0:37:10.319
<v Speaker 2>I read that, but I'm like, I'm like, nah, But

0:37:10.640 --> 0:37:16.160
<v Speaker 2>apparently you don't need boosters. You just need a sugar cube.

0:37:16.840 --> 0:37:20.920
<v Speaker 2>And because it's live, it's contagious, but in a good way.

0:37:21.520 --> 0:37:24.880
<v Speaker 2>You get vaccinated, Like they give you a fucking sugar cube,

0:37:24.920 --> 0:37:28.040
<v Speaker 2>you eat it, and then you go home to your

0:37:28.040 --> 0:37:32.480
<v Speaker 2>town or village or whatever, and you spread antibodies naturally,

0:37:33.239 --> 0:37:35.839
<v Speaker 2>and everyone you spread it to is now immune topolio two.

0:37:37.640 --> 0:37:40.520
<v Speaker 2>There is a downside to this. There's a reason that

0:37:40.560 --> 0:37:43.799
<v Speaker 2>we use the dead vaccine here in the United States.

0:37:44.719 --> 0:37:47.719
<v Speaker 2>A few people die every now and then. I've read

0:37:47.760 --> 0:37:50.400
<v Speaker 2>eight to ten people around the world per year, but

0:37:50.440 --> 0:37:52.399
<v Speaker 2>I've also read that it's not every year, and it's

0:37:52.440 --> 0:37:56.839
<v Speaker 2>fewer people than that. I don't know. Basically, like this

0:37:56.880 --> 0:37:59.239
<v Speaker 2>is getting an administered to millions of people every year,

0:38:00.239 --> 0:38:04.440
<v Speaker 2>an eight to ten or so of them die, and

0:38:04.520 --> 0:38:08.560
<v Speaker 2>the people who die, they do so because occasionally, incredibly rarely,

0:38:08.960 --> 0:38:12.120
<v Speaker 2>the virus mutates and becomes active and you have an outbreak,

0:38:12.640 --> 0:38:17.720
<v Speaker 2>which is then solved by administering a vaccine. The perfect

0:38:17.719 --> 0:38:21.480
<v Speaker 2>solution to polio that the World Health Organization suggests is

0:38:21.520 --> 0:38:25.280
<v Speaker 2>that you use both. You use the sabin vaccine first,

0:38:25.320 --> 0:38:28.040
<v Speaker 2>and it creates actual herd immunity. Herd immunity is not

0:38:28.080 --> 0:38:30.439
<v Speaker 2>the word for let everyone get sick. It's the word

0:38:30.520 --> 0:38:35.440
<v Speaker 2>for get everyone antibodies. Use the Sabin vaccine and eradicate

0:38:35.520 --> 0:38:39.480
<v Speaker 2>wild polio. Then you switch over to the Salk vaccine

0:38:39.520 --> 0:38:43.040
<v Speaker 2>to keep it dead. It just costs more money to

0:38:43.080 --> 0:38:46.920
<v Speaker 2>do it this way. That's what happened in the US

0:38:47.600 --> 0:38:50.600
<v Speaker 2>is that they use Salk's vaccine for a little while,

0:38:50.719 --> 0:38:53.239
<v Speaker 2>but it didn't really do enough, and so then people

0:38:53.280 --> 0:38:55.480
<v Speaker 2>are like, how come the Commis get the good American

0:38:55.560 --> 0:38:58.359
<v Speaker 2>vaccine and we don't get the good American vaccine. So

0:38:58.400 --> 0:39:02.479
<v Speaker 2>then they started using the Sabin vaccine, and then once

0:39:02.560 --> 0:39:06.200
<v Speaker 2>wild polio was eradicated, they switched back over to the

0:39:06.239 --> 0:39:09.640
<v Speaker 2>Salk vaccine. When I was like, Savin did all the

0:39:09.680 --> 0:39:12.560
<v Speaker 2>same stuff Sock did, but like kind of, Actually, Sabin

0:39:12.719 --> 0:39:15.480
<v Speaker 2>also tested the vaccine on himself and his family, and

0:39:15.520 --> 0:39:20.439
<v Speaker 2>he also didn't patent it, And there isn't as much

0:39:20.440 --> 0:39:23.120
<v Speaker 2>information about him not patenting it that I'm able to find,

0:39:24.200 --> 0:39:25.960
<v Speaker 2>but it seems as though he would have made about

0:39:26.000 --> 0:39:32.600
<v Speaker 2>seven billion dollars if he had patented this. What instead

0:39:33.160 --> 0:39:37.000
<v Speaker 2>he lived off of a teacher's salary for his entire life.

0:39:37.120 --> 0:39:38.759
<v Speaker 3>I want to be like good for him. But I

0:39:38.800 --> 0:39:43.279
<v Speaker 3>also like, I hope, I hope that was purposeful. I

0:39:43.360 --> 0:39:46.520
<v Speaker 3>believe it was Okay. Well, then good for him.

0:39:46.480 --> 0:39:49.320
<v Speaker 2>He wrote, quote A lot of people insisted that I

0:39:49.320 --> 0:39:51.920
<v Speaker 2>should patent the vaccine, but I didn't want to do that.

0:39:52.520 --> 0:39:57.759
<v Speaker 2>It's my gift to all the world's children. And he

0:39:57.800 --> 0:40:01.520
<v Speaker 2>worked with Cuba in nineteen sixty two as Castro's Cuba

0:40:01.640 --> 0:40:03.719
<v Speaker 2>was the first country to actually get They were like,

0:40:03.960 --> 0:40:05.560
<v Speaker 2>they were like, all right, we're going to actually commit

0:40:05.600 --> 0:40:07.759
<v Speaker 2>to getting rid of polio. And I believe that they

0:40:07.760 --> 0:40:12.960
<v Speaker 2>were the first country to succeed. But while Sabin's vaccine

0:40:13.000 --> 0:40:16.600
<v Speaker 2>defeated polio around the world, America liked its doctor rock star,

0:40:16.960 --> 0:40:19.440
<v Speaker 2>and Sulk remained the darling of the press and the

0:40:19.440 --> 0:40:26.560
<v Speaker 2>political establishment. His wife divorced him for quote extreme cruelty.

0:40:28.160 --> 0:40:32.319
<v Speaker 3>Oh whoa. I was going to ask you earlier if

0:40:32.320 --> 0:40:34.440
<v Speaker 3>you thought that they had any love for each other.

0:40:34.520 --> 0:40:38.560
<v Speaker 2>And now, now, as best as I can tell, it

0:40:38.560 --> 0:40:41.560
<v Speaker 2>sounds abusive. It sounds emotionally abusive, even though he was

0:40:41.600 --> 0:40:43.160
<v Speaker 2>the one who had been like, come on, come on,

0:40:43.200 --> 0:40:45.600
<v Speaker 2>don't you want to get married. Come on, I don't

0:40:45.600 --> 0:40:48.160
<v Speaker 2>have a middle name. Give me a middle name. You know.

0:40:48.880 --> 0:40:53.239
<v Speaker 2>He was just constantly. His work was his life, and

0:40:53.280 --> 0:40:55.360
<v Speaker 2>he like loved being famous, and he was like, oh,

0:40:55.400 --> 0:40:59.719
<v Speaker 2>the pretty girls like me. You know. Yeah, the thing

0:40:59.719 --> 0:41:01.680
<v Speaker 2>I it implies that both of them were cheating on

0:41:01.680 --> 0:41:03.880
<v Speaker 2>each other, But the thing I read implies it in

0:41:03.920 --> 0:41:06.440
<v Speaker 2>a way that's kind of like blaming her and then

0:41:06.480 --> 0:41:09.879
<v Speaker 2>being like, I guess he did it too, And I'm like, man,

0:41:09.920 --> 0:41:12.080
<v Speaker 2>I wonder who fucking did it more? The fucking rock

0:41:12.080 --> 0:41:16.680
<v Speaker 2>star anyway, whatever agreed, So he's like ignoring her. He's

0:41:16.680 --> 0:41:19.680
<v Speaker 2>like choosing where they live, constantly ignoring. She's got three

0:41:19.800 --> 0:41:23.640
<v Speaker 2>kids with them, and she's not having it anymore. That's

0:41:23.680 --> 0:41:27.520
<v Speaker 2>like the nicest version. They never really talked about it,

0:41:28.640 --> 0:41:32.480
<v Speaker 2>and so when she says extreme cruelty, it probably means

0:41:32.480 --> 0:41:36.000
<v Speaker 2>the sort of patterns of emotional abuse. But I don't know,

0:41:36.239 --> 0:41:38.879
<v Speaker 2>that's the nicest thing I can picture there.

0:41:39.280 --> 0:41:39.440
<v Speaker 3>You know.

0:41:40.600 --> 0:41:44.080
<v Speaker 2>Donna, his now ex wife, stays committed to leftist activism,

0:41:44.760 --> 0:41:48.840
<v Speaker 2>but he's at this point, first sort of a political

0:41:48.880 --> 0:41:52.120
<v Speaker 2>and then increasingly into sort of a mystical eugenics, although

0:41:52.960 --> 0:41:56.520
<v Speaker 2>a weirdly maybe leftist mystical eugenics. I don't know, I'll

0:41:56.560 --> 0:41:59.000
<v Speaker 2>get into it a second. He remarries to a woman

0:41:59.040 --> 0:42:02.440
<v Speaker 2>who also dated Paba Picasso. He wrote a bunch of

0:42:02.480 --> 0:42:05.160
<v Speaker 2>books about this biophilosophy stuff he did, where he's all

0:42:05.200 --> 0:42:08.480
<v Speaker 2>about like, just like we can understand viruses and bacteria,

0:42:08.560 --> 0:42:12.640
<v Speaker 2>we can understand the humans, which like a very normal

0:42:12.680 --> 0:42:17.960
<v Speaker 2>thing to think. And he wrote a book called Survival

0:42:18.000 --> 0:42:22.280
<v Speaker 2>of the Wisest. Oh no, if that name sounds sketchy,

0:42:22.320 --> 0:42:26.040
<v Speaker 2>it's because the book is sketchy. I've read excerpts, and

0:42:26.080 --> 0:42:28.279
<v Speaker 2>I've read analysis, and I've also it's really fun to

0:42:28.320 --> 0:42:31.480
<v Speaker 2>read both the goodreads reviews and the archive dot org reviews,

0:42:31.800 --> 0:42:33.680
<v Speaker 2>because there's a hick copy of that on archive dot

0:42:33.760 --> 0:42:37.600
<v Speaker 2>org and it is more or less calling for the

0:42:37.600 --> 0:42:40.719
<v Speaker 2>genocide of the stupid. Like one analysis I read was like,

0:42:40.960 --> 0:42:43.400
<v Speaker 2>this is just a book length thing where he's avoiding

0:42:43.520 --> 0:42:47.040
<v Speaker 2>using that word, where he continues to say like, well,

0:42:47.080 --> 0:42:50.520
<v Speaker 2>the wisest people should develop a new morality as they

0:42:50.560 --> 0:42:55.960
<v Speaker 2>inherit the earth. In it, he writes, quote, if the

0:42:56.080 --> 0:42:59.719
<v Speaker 2>quality of human life is to improve, a process of

0:42:59.760 --> 0:43:04.000
<v Speaker 2>selet both natural and human will have to choose the

0:43:04.040 --> 0:43:09.279
<v Speaker 2>wisest for positions of influence and power. Eventually, the struggling

0:43:09.320 --> 0:43:12.239
<v Speaker 2>in the human domain will be between the wise and

0:43:12.280 --> 0:43:16.440
<v Speaker 2>the non wise. This implies that those who lead others

0:43:16.480 --> 0:43:19.399
<v Speaker 2>in ways that are anti evolutionary or that are being

0:43:19.440 --> 0:43:24.000
<v Speaker 2>counter to the natural process of becoming the being and

0:43:24.800 --> 0:43:28.040
<v Speaker 2>the and the being is capitalized like the t but

0:43:28.120 --> 0:43:30.759
<v Speaker 2>then being is all capitalized. I just want everyone to

0:43:30.800 --> 0:43:34.840
<v Speaker 2>know that aalk outs okay, will either be replaced by

0:43:34.920 --> 0:43:38.000
<v Speaker 2>others possessing wisdom akin to that of nature capital and

0:43:38.040 --> 0:43:42.719
<v Speaker 2>in nature, etc. Etc. You see what I mean where

0:43:42.719 --> 0:43:46.120
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, but this man isn't a good writer. Like

0:43:46.160 --> 0:43:48.080
<v Speaker 2>when people are like, he's a really good science communicator,

0:43:48.120 --> 0:43:50.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, well, he's not a good philosophy communicator.

0:43:52.200 --> 0:43:57.320
<v Speaker 3>No. And to very oversimplify what I'm picking up here

0:43:58.200 --> 0:44:01.520
<v Speaker 3>is this was a very early version of you know,

0:44:02.280 --> 0:44:05.759
<v Speaker 3>nerds will inherit the earth like. He wanted power. He

0:44:05.840 --> 0:44:09.400
<v Speaker 3>wanted power, and this was his way of being this

0:44:09.480 --> 0:44:14.480
<v Speaker 3>scientist rock star. I can be the powerful one. I'm wise,

0:44:15.480 --> 0:44:21.160
<v Speaker 3>it seems, don't particularly care if I have to run

0:44:21.480 --> 0:44:28.239
<v Speaker 3>perhaps on ethical tests on mentally disabled people. Yeah, but

0:44:28.400 --> 0:44:31.200
<v Speaker 3>it's just very interesting to me because it feels very

0:44:31.239 --> 0:44:36.400
<v Speaker 3>loud in him being like I'm the one with the power,

0:44:36.520 --> 0:44:40.319
<v Speaker 3>and totally that's what we should be placing it on

0:44:40.680 --> 0:44:42.200
<v Speaker 3>is wisdom totally?

0:44:42.760 --> 0:44:44.960
<v Speaker 2>Like, how is he defining wisdom in this context?

0:44:45.360 --> 0:44:48.600
<v Speaker 3>Exactly because it is true, Like you said, I'm all

0:44:48.640 --> 0:44:53.360
<v Speaker 3>about wisdom. Oh yeah, that's not bad. Yeah, but it

0:44:53.560 --> 0:44:57.239
<v Speaker 3>just feels very he's placing it in terms of he

0:44:57.440 --> 0:44:58.720
<v Speaker 3>wanted more power.

0:44:59.400 --> 0:45:03.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, how they were going to do all this eugenic

0:45:03.480 --> 0:45:05.439
<v Speaker 2>shit once they had power is that they would build

0:45:05.600 --> 0:45:09.000
<v Speaker 2>RNA viruses with which to reprogram humans in the embryo.

0:45:09.280 --> 0:45:18.440
<v Speaker 3>No, I know, no, no im media, no from me.

0:45:18.920 --> 0:45:21.000
<v Speaker 2>All right, well then never mind. I was going to

0:45:21.080 --> 0:45:23.880
<v Speaker 2>pitch our new biophilosophy podcast on cool Zone Media, but

0:45:23.880 --> 0:45:24.680
<v Speaker 2>apparently that's.

0:45:24.560 --> 0:45:26.319
<v Speaker 3>A no, No, it's out.

0:45:28.120 --> 0:45:30.279
<v Speaker 2>I liked a review that was written on archive dot

0:45:30.360 --> 0:45:33.799
<v Speaker 2>org about this. There's a five star review quote a

0:45:33.920 --> 0:45:36.719
<v Speaker 2>must read for anyone interested in the thought process of

0:45:36.719 --> 0:45:40.520
<v Speaker 2>a Malthusian psychopath. It is troubling to think that this

0:45:40.560 --> 0:45:44.000
<v Speaker 2>man invented inoculations that were administered on a large scale.

0:45:46.719 --> 0:45:48.000
<v Speaker 3>But it was five stars.

0:45:48.080 --> 0:45:50.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I mean, like it's like half ironic, but it's

0:45:50.680 --> 0:45:52.960
<v Speaker 2>like yeah, no, it's like a it's a very useful

0:45:52.960 --> 0:45:57.480
<v Speaker 2>book with which to understand this particular genre of like okay,

0:45:57.160 --> 0:46:00.000
<v Speaker 2>and what's interesting Again, I haven't read this book yet.

0:46:01.000 --> 0:46:03.520
<v Speaker 2>Most people talking about it are aware, they're like, this

0:46:03.680 --> 0:46:06.880
<v Speaker 2>is bad, right, But there's like some people who are

0:46:06.960 --> 0:46:10.399
<v Speaker 2>kind of like wellness influencer types who are like, oh,

0:46:10.480 --> 0:46:12.960
<v Speaker 2>this book is like so good to help us understanding

0:46:13.080 --> 0:46:17.200
<v Speaker 2>overpopulation and you know, how to be our best selves

0:46:17.280 --> 0:46:19.719
<v Speaker 2>and and all of this stuff. You know, So I

0:46:19.760 --> 0:46:22.080
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't be surprised if this eventually crops up as like

0:46:22.120 --> 0:46:28.960
<v Speaker 2>a new thing the right gloms onto. But I think again,

0:46:29.000 --> 0:46:30.480
<v Speaker 2>I haven't read the whole thing yet. I haven't read

0:46:30.480 --> 0:46:33.600
<v Speaker 2>more than excerps yet. One of the things that he

0:46:33.600 --> 0:46:36.799
<v Speaker 2>wants to get rid of is diseases, both of the

0:46:36.960 --> 0:46:43.280
<v Speaker 2>like susceptibility to whatever things that are bad and eugenics

0:46:43.280 --> 0:46:47.399
<v Speaker 2>to try and cut out, but also diseases like prejudice

0:46:47.520 --> 0:46:51.600
<v Speaker 2>and like bigotry. And so he's like, oh, we're going

0:46:51.640 --> 0:46:55.400
<v Speaker 2>to eugenically get rid of racism. Is I think what

0:46:55.480 --> 0:46:56.160
<v Speaker 2>he's saying.

0:46:59.480 --> 0:47:05.160
<v Speaker 3>Wow, again, that's a real that's a mind fuck. To

0:47:05.200 --> 0:47:08.600
<v Speaker 3>be honest with you, I know, that's just like the

0:47:08.719 --> 0:47:12.560
<v Speaker 3>opposite of eugenics. I don't know.

0:47:12.840 --> 0:47:17.160
<v Speaker 2>I know, theoretically he'd be accidentally programming his own ideas

0:47:17.200 --> 0:47:21.799
<v Speaker 2>out of existence if he did this right. The other

0:47:21.880 --> 0:47:24.840
<v Speaker 2>thing that people say about him, Okay, when people paint

0:47:24.880 --> 0:47:28.319
<v Speaker 2>the simple picture of Sulk, that is technically true, but

0:47:28.440 --> 0:47:32.080
<v Speaker 2>not is here is this man who dedicated his life

0:47:32.120 --> 0:47:35.719
<v Speaker 2>to trying to make the world better, defeated polio, and then,

0:47:35.800 --> 0:47:39.520
<v Speaker 2>when he was well past retirement age, spent the rest

0:47:39.520 --> 0:47:42.239
<v Speaker 2>of his life up until his death, trying to make

0:47:42.280 --> 0:47:47.040
<v Speaker 2>a vaccine for AIDS. And that is true. He spent

0:47:47.160 --> 0:47:49.280
<v Speaker 2>the end of his life trying to create a vaccine

0:47:49.320 --> 0:47:53.040
<v Speaker 2>for AIDS. Once again, he trusted it enough that he

0:47:53.080 --> 0:47:56.560
<v Speaker 2>inoculated himself in nineteen eighty seven. I'm not mad at

0:47:56.640 --> 0:47:58.880
<v Speaker 2>him for trying any of this stuff. Despite some early

0:47:58.920 --> 0:48:02.760
<v Speaker 2>promising animal test results, he never succeeded. His dead virus approached.

0:48:02.760 --> 0:48:05.400
<v Speaker 2>Didn't hurt anyone, but it didn't make anyone better either.

0:48:06.520 --> 0:48:10.120
<v Speaker 2>Albert Sabin died in nineteen ninety three. Jonas Edward Salk

0:48:10.280 --> 0:48:13.920
<v Speaker 2>died in nineteen ninety five. Yeah, we had our first

0:48:13.920 --> 0:48:16.640
<v Speaker 2>polio outbreak in the US since nineteen seventy nine in

0:48:16.680 --> 0:48:20.200
<v Speaker 2>the year twenty twenty two, and one of rfk's advisors,

0:48:20.239 --> 0:48:23.400
<v Speaker 2>this guy named Aaron Siri, tried to get the FDA

0:48:23.520 --> 0:48:29.840
<v Speaker 2>to unapprove the polio vaccine, so good luck everyone.

0:48:30.080 --> 0:48:33.640
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it's really bad. I mean the FDA chose the

0:48:33.680 --> 0:48:37.719
<v Speaker 1>guy to lead like the vaccine's division essentially at the

0:48:37.800 --> 0:48:41.319
<v Speaker 1>FDA is this guy named doctor Vine Prosad and like

0:48:41.880 --> 0:48:44.160
<v Speaker 1>friend of the pod doctor Cavajda, and I.

0:48:45.480 --> 0:48:47.240
<v Speaker 2>We fucking hate this guy. Sucks.

0:48:47.800 --> 0:48:49.959
<v Speaker 1>He spent all of the pandemic trying to get people

0:48:50.000 --> 0:48:52.520
<v Speaker 1>not to get vaccinated. He's like a scream into.

0:48:52.400 --> 0:48:53.480
<v Speaker 3>The void YouTube guy.

0:48:53.520 --> 0:48:56.439
<v Speaker 1>And he's not the guy that's in charge of the

0:48:56.600 --> 0:48:59.920
<v Speaker 1>vaccines division, which is so crazy.

0:49:00.160 --> 0:49:01.759
<v Speaker 3>It's so crazy.

0:49:01.840 --> 0:49:05.680
<v Speaker 2>It's like this being monstrously bad at math, Like take

0:49:05.719 --> 0:49:10.560
<v Speaker 2>the live polio vaccine. If it kills eight people every year,

0:49:11.600 --> 0:49:14.160
<v Speaker 2>that's like not what we want a vaccine to do. Yeah, right,

0:49:14.880 --> 0:49:18.279
<v Speaker 2>if you have a ninety percent chance of dying or

0:49:18.320 --> 0:49:21.719
<v Speaker 2>a nine percent chance of dying, you pick the nine

0:49:21.760 --> 0:49:25.680
<v Speaker 2>percent chance of dying because it's a lot better. Yes,

0:49:26.280 --> 0:49:28.920
<v Speaker 2>you are so much safer. I was trying to explain

0:49:28.960 --> 0:49:30.480
<v Speaker 2>this to like one of my friends who kind of

0:49:30.480 --> 0:49:35.239
<v Speaker 2>went off of terrible direction during COVID sure, who didn't

0:49:35.280 --> 0:49:37.040
<v Speaker 2>want to take the vaccine, like, well, we don't know

0:49:37.080 --> 0:49:39.160
<v Speaker 2>what it does, And I'm like, but we do know

0:49:39.200 --> 0:49:42.200
<v Speaker 2>what COVID does, right, So do you take the door

0:49:42.239 --> 0:49:46.600
<v Speaker 2>that one hundred percent has a monster behind it? Or

0:49:46.640 --> 0:49:50.560
<v Speaker 2>do you take the door that point zero one percent

0:49:50.719 --> 0:49:56.640
<v Speaker 2>has a monster behind it? Like that is really easy math.

0:49:56.880 --> 0:49:59.960
<v Speaker 1>It sure is the other thing that I you know,

0:50:00.080 --> 0:50:02.399
<v Speaker 1>I've pointed out. It's like it would be like if

0:50:02.440 --> 0:50:05.759
<v Speaker 1>they appointed me to make like basketball decisions for the

0:50:05.800 --> 0:50:06.960
<v Speaker 1>Boston Celtics, who.

0:50:06.840 --> 0:50:09.040
<v Speaker 3>I hate with a fiery pack.

0:50:10.360 --> 0:50:14.279
<v Speaker 1>It's like, you can't assign a hater to be in

0:50:14.360 --> 0:50:16.400
<v Speaker 1>charge of the thing that they hate. Like that doesn't

0:50:16.400 --> 0:50:20.080
<v Speaker 1>make sense. Like this guy spent all of COVID and

0:50:20.200 --> 0:50:24.080
<v Speaker 1>after it's still just like shitting on vaccines.

0:50:24.120 --> 0:50:27.439
<v Speaker 3>And they were like, that's the guy.

0:50:27.600 --> 0:50:31.879
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's what we need. More vaccine skepticism, More skepticism

0:50:31.960 --> 0:50:35.640
<v Speaker 2>of the thing that has successfully destroyed the scariest disease

0:50:35.680 --> 0:50:37.239
<v Speaker 2>to Americans in nineteen fifty four.

0:50:37.719 --> 0:50:39.480
<v Speaker 1>We're currently working on our project that's going to come

0:50:39.480 --> 0:50:41.520
<v Speaker 1>out probably in May on he could happen here. That's

0:50:41.560 --> 0:50:44.239
<v Speaker 1>about what's going on with measles in Texas. Oh sure,

0:50:44.760 --> 0:50:46.640
<v Speaker 1>that'll be like an n entire week project that we're

0:50:46.640 --> 0:50:49.080
<v Speaker 1>working on with a local journalist out there. That kind

0:50:49.120 --> 0:50:51.319
<v Speaker 1>of explains a little bit about like how we got

0:50:51.360 --> 0:50:52.279
<v Speaker 1>to the skepticism a.

0:50:52.280 --> 0:50:52.799
<v Speaker 3>Little bit more.

0:50:52.880 --> 0:50:53.279
<v Speaker 2>M hmm.

0:50:53.520 --> 0:50:55.840
<v Speaker 1>And I think people should listen to that. When we

0:50:55.920 --> 0:50:57.120
<v Speaker 1>drop it, it's gonna be really good.

0:50:57.360 --> 0:50:59.879
<v Speaker 2>When I was doing this research, there was a there's

0:50:59.880 --> 0:51:02.840
<v Speaker 2>a moment in nineteen seventy six, we're actually both Sabin

0:51:02.960 --> 0:51:05.640
<v Speaker 2>and Salk were both talking with the President during a

0:51:05.719 --> 0:51:08.640
<v Speaker 2>swine flu outbreak. That thing that Annie Reese currently.

0:51:08.320 --> 0:51:10.560
<v Speaker 3>Has survivor Oh okay, yeah.

0:51:10.800 --> 0:51:13.680
<v Speaker 2>Is contagious for it forever, and everyone needs to make

0:51:13.920 --> 0:51:16.640
<v Speaker 2>any a pariah. No, none of that's true.

0:51:17.160 --> 0:51:18.000
<v Speaker 1>None of that's true.

0:51:18.000 --> 0:51:19.959
<v Speaker 3>But if you could get people to follow that six

0:51:20.000 --> 0:51:22.560
<v Speaker 3>foot rule again, oh my gosh.

0:51:22.400 --> 0:51:23.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

0:51:24.040 --> 0:51:25.799
<v Speaker 3>It would be only for me, though, wouldn't it.

0:51:26.160 --> 0:51:28.759
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I know I would feel better that you had

0:51:28.800 --> 0:51:31.279
<v Speaker 1>that boundary because I missed that boundary every day.

0:51:31.760 --> 0:51:33.800
<v Speaker 2>In nineteen seventy six, people thought there was gonna be

0:51:33.800 --> 0:51:36.399
<v Speaker 2>a really bad swine flu outbreak, and so they did

0:51:36.400 --> 0:51:38.520
<v Speaker 2>a lot of work trying to vaccinate, and like both

0:51:38.520 --> 0:51:41.960
<v Speaker 2>Sabin and Salk, I believe were part of this process

0:51:42.000 --> 0:51:43.800
<v Speaker 2>of trying to get everyone to get a flu vaccine

0:51:43.840 --> 0:51:49.120
<v Speaker 2>that year, and there was like a like one in

0:51:49.160 --> 0:51:53.960
<v Speaker 2>one hundred thousand incident of an increased potential risk of

0:51:54.000 --> 0:51:59.279
<v Speaker 2>like one particular thing or something. And then the swine

0:51:59.280 --> 0:52:01.520
<v Speaker 2>flu didn't really hit and so everyone was like, ah,

0:52:01.560 --> 0:52:05.200
<v Speaker 2>see it is bad, and people sometimes present it as

0:52:05.239 --> 0:52:07.000
<v Speaker 2>the beginning of the modern anti vax movement. But then

0:52:07.080 --> 0:52:08.520
<v Speaker 2>I was reading other stuff that was like, no, that

0:52:08.560 --> 0:52:12.120
<v Speaker 2>actually isn't where there's no continuity there. It all comes

0:52:12.120 --> 0:52:14.800
<v Speaker 2>back to that stupid fake autism study.

0:52:16.040 --> 0:52:21.040
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, and I do think there's a lot of very

0:52:21.120 --> 0:52:24.360
<v Speaker 3>it feels distinctly American to me. But I just feel

0:52:24.360 --> 0:52:28.200
<v Speaker 3>like people got so pissed off that we were telling

0:52:28.239 --> 0:52:31.400
<v Speaker 3>them like you can't leave, you've gotta wear a mask,

0:52:32.040 --> 0:52:35.319
<v Speaker 3>Like we were giving them all these rules. Yeah, and

0:52:36.080 --> 0:52:38.440
<v Speaker 3>instead of thinking of that herd immunity of like the

0:52:38.480 --> 0:52:43.440
<v Speaker 3>health for everyone, people were just angry that they couldn't

0:52:43.520 --> 0:52:46.880
<v Speaker 3>do what they wanted to do, and then they were isolated.

0:52:47.480 --> 0:52:49.759
<v Speaker 3>They were going on these rabbit holes that were telling

0:52:49.800 --> 0:52:53.360
<v Speaker 3>them like it's all a lie, it's five G it's.

0:52:53.280 --> 0:52:56.360
<v Speaker 1>Just yeah, instead of just realizing that, like you know,

0:52:57.000 --> 0:52:58.840
<v Speaker 1>I'm telling you I miss some of the COVID or

0:52:58.880 --> 0:53:00.600
<v Speaker 1>some I'm like, yeah, I wish you would wear a

0:53:00.640 --> 0:53:01.520
<v Speaker 1>mask on an airplane.

0:53:01.960 --> 0:53:05.719
<v Speaker 3>You're in a fucking airless metal tube. A chewa, chew

0:53:05.719 --> 0:53:08.520
<v Speaker 3>a chew. Cough cough, cop Come on, I wish somebody

0:53:08.520 --> 0:53:11.600
<v Speaker 3>would wear a mask. Six foot rule miss you curb.

0:53:11.400 --> 0:53:12.239
<v Speaker 2>Side pick up?

0:53:13.120 --> 0:53:16.359
<v Speaker 3>Oh my god? Oh yeah, but.

0:53:16.400 --> 0:53:18.520
<v Speaker 1>Really the six foot thing, I'm like people used to

0:53:18.560 --> 0:53:22.560
<v Speaker 1>like give you like I loved it, and now it's

0:53:22.600 --> 0:53:25.479
<v Speaker 1>like you're in my bubble well.

0:53:26.680 --> 0:53:29.160
<v Speaker 2>I often have people stay about six feet away from

0:53:29.200 --> 0:53:32.640
<v Speaker 2>me right now. In order to accomplish that, you have

0:53:32.680 --> 0:53:34.799
<v Speaker 2>to wear all black and be it like kind of

0:53:34.800 --> 0:53:35.799
<v Speaker 2>strange trans girl.

0:53:37.239 --> 0:53:37.919
<v Speaker 3>Yeah.

0:53:38.040 --> 0:53:40.640
<v Speaker 1>As people travel and stuff, it's like we're you're often

0:53:40.680 --> 0:53:42.399
<v Speaker 1>the only person on a plane wearing a mask, which

0:53:42.400 --> 0:53:44.320
<v Speaker 1>is so baffling to me when.

0:53:44.160 --> 0:53:46.719
<v Speaker 2>I think about the nineteen eighteen flu pandemic, where like

0:53:47.040 --> 0:53:49.800
<v Speaker 2>the new technology of cover your mouth when you cough.

0:53:50.200 --> 0:53:52.600
<v Speaker 2>We look back and we're like, ha ha, they didn't

0:53:52.600 --> 0:53:55.399
<v Speaker 2>know that we should have taken.

0:53:56.239 --> 0:53:59.839
<v Speaker 1>Wearing a mask on a plane.

0:54:00.000 --> 0:54:02.560
<v Speaker 3>Bring a mask when you go to a hospital or

0:54:02.560 --> 0:54:04.240
<v Speaker 3>to a doctor's office.

0:54:04.360 --> 0:54:08.120
<v Speaker 1>Or somewhere where you know that you're going to be

0:54:08.200 --> 0:54:09.960
<v Speaker 1>in a crowd space what an idea?

0:54:10.160 --> 0:54:12.080
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, and just as a social norm, there's no one

0:54:12.120 --> 0:54:14.799
<v Speaker 2>who's going to I don't know. Maybe actually some things

0:54:14.840 --> 0:54:17.240
<v Speaker 2>do need to be mandate, I'm not sure. But overall,

0:54:17.320 --> 0:54:18.879
<v Speaker 2>no one's going to arrest you if you just cough

0:54:18.880 --> 0:54:22.200
<v Speaker 2>into the air, right, but it sure is a faux

0:54:22.200 --> 0:54:26.759
<v Speaker 2>pas and it should be right. And like, I don't know,

0:54:26.880 --> 0:54:29.160
<v Speaker 2>I don't have solutions here around how public health should

0:54:29.160 --> 0:54:30.719
<v Speaker 2>be run. I am not enough of an expert. I

0:54:30.760 --> 0:54:33.120
<v Speaker 2>don't I genuinely don't think people should listen to podcasters

0:54:33.120 --> 0:54:34.960
<v Speaker 2>around public health. I think they should listen to people

0:54:35.000 --> 0:54:38.719
<v Speaker 2>who study it. But people should wear masks sometimes, and

0:54:38.760 --> 0:54:41.719
<v Speaker 2>people should sneeze into their crook of their elbow and

0:54:42.640 --> 0:54:46.120
<v Speaker 2>learn that hand sanitizer doesn't stop fecal oral transmission. And

0:54:47.680 --> 0:54:49.360
<v Speaker 2>you know, love that some stuff.

0:54:50.480 --> 0:54:52.120
<v Speaker 3>I love how much you love that story.

0:54:52.200 --> 0:54:53.960
<v Speaker 2>I know, Well, it's manny too, because it's the kind

0:54:53.960 --> 0:54:55.719
<v Speaker 2>of thing that doesn't really impact people who don't live

0:54:55.760 --> 0:54:57.400
<v Speaker 2>lives like I do. But if you go to like

0:54:57.400 --> 0:55:00.879
<v Speaker 2>like a forest defense camp, you have like everyone goes

0:55:00.880 --> 0:55:03.120
<v Speaker 2>in poops in a we call it a shitter, you know,

0:55:03.200 --> 0:55:05.200
<v Speaker 2>and in order to it's safely, it's a certain distance

0:55:05.200 --> 0:55:07.000
<v Speaker 2>away from the kitchen. You have to cover everything, you

0:55:07.000 --> 0:55:08.879
<v Speaker 2>have to dig a certain depth. You know. It's all

0:55:08.880 --> 0:55:12.400
<v Speaker 2>this work that people do. And people used to just

0:55:12.440 --> 0:55:16.239
<v Speaker 2>put some hand sanitizer there. Yeah, but thanks to the

0:55:16.280 --> 0:55:19.359
<v Speaker 2>work of people explaining how transmission.

0:55:18.760 --> 0:55:20.320
<v Speaker 3>Works, that doesn't help.

0:55:20.640 --> 0:55:22.680
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, So instead you have to build this thing out

0:55:22.680 --> 0:55:24.920
<v Speaker 2>of five gallon buckets and a foot pump where you

0:55:24.920 --> 0:55:27.640
<v Speaker 2>can like pump soapy water. And you know, people have

0:55:27.719 --> 0:55:29.799
<v Speaker 2>like solved this problem. And it's one of these things

0:55:29.800 --> 0:55:31.960
<v Speaker 2>where it's like, this is a reasonably normal part of

0:55:31.960 --> 0:55:33.520
<v Speaker 2>my life. It is not a normal part of most

0:55:33.520 --> 0:55:35.839
<v Speaker 2>people I know's lives. An outhouse is not a part

0:55:35.880 --> 0:55:38.239
<v Speaker 2>of like most of my friend's lives. But for many

0:55:38.320 --> 0:55:41.800
<v Speaker 2>years lived somewhere where an outhouse was the only toilet available,

0:55:41.920 --> 0:55:46.640
<v Speaker 2>you know. Yeah, anyway, Annie, how you feel that about

0:55:47.920 --> 0:55:50.880
<v Speaker 2>salk and seven and polio in the future?

0:55:52.120 --> 0:55:57.880
<v Speaker 3>You know, the future? Uh? You know, Honestly, I feel

0:55:57.880 --> 0:55:59.440
<v Speaker 3>like I say this every time I come on a

0:55:59.480 --> 0:56:02.040
<v Speaker 3>show like this. I have a million thoughts and I

0:56:02.120 --> 0:56:04.479
<v Speaker 3>want to talk about all of them. Like you said,

0:56:04.520 --> 0:56:07.800
<v Speaker 3>there's a lot of paths we could have gone down,

0:56:08.640 --> 0:56:12.880
<v Speaker 3>but currently it's just it was interesting to hear how

0:56:13.120 --> 0:56:16.640
<v Speaker 3>displayed out in the past, and to juxtapose it with

0:56:16.680 --> 0:56:24.920
<v Speaker 3>how it's going yeah right now in some frightening ways.

0:56:25.440 --> 0:56:27.600
<v Speaker 3>But yeah, just the kind of it sounds like there's

0:56:27.600 --> 0:56:32.319
<v Speaker 3>always been this po politicization of vaccines and who gets

0:56:32.320 --> 0:56:35.040
<v Speaker 3>the credit for them? Yeah, and then are they actually

0:56:35.040 --> 0:56:35.839
<v Speaker 3>any good for you?

0:56:36.160 --> 0:56:41.120
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, all that stuff, and the answer is yes, vaccines

0:56:41.120 --> 0:56:43.719
<v Speaker 2>are great, one of the best technologies I've ever developed.

0:56:44.040 --> 0:56:46.680
<v Speaker 2>And also all the stuff that they're trying to strip

0:56:46.680 --> 0:56:50.719
<v Speaker 2>away from social services that are trying to take out

0:56:50.719 --> 0:56:52.520
<v Speaker 2>all the good parts of the government and leave all

0:56:52.560 --> 0:56:54.520
<v Speaker 2>the bad parts of the government. And what we need

0:56:54.560 --> 0:56:57.440
<v Speaker 2>to do is the opposite. Imagine that you should get

0:56:57.480 --> 0:56:59.680
<v Speaker 2>rid of the bad things and keep the good things.

0:57:00.120 --> 0:57:01.800
<v Speaker 2>Just got it all backwards, that's the problem.

0:57:03.000 --> 0:57:05.239
<v Speaker 1>And you know, wash your hands, cup your mouth when

0:57:05.280 --> 0:57:07.560
<v Speaker 1>your cough, and maybe just like thinking, am.

0:57:07.400 --> 0:57:09.640
<v Speaker 3>I too close to that person? Maybe I am?

0:57:09.880 --> 0:57:11.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And don't talk to cops.

0:57:12.280 --> 0:57:15.360
<v Speaker 3>Don't fucking talk to cops anyway.

0:57:15.960 --> 0:57:17.560
<v Speaker 2>Well, anywhere can people follow you?

0:57:19.640 --> 0:57:22.959
<v Speaker 3>People can find me on podcasts stuff when never told

0:57:23.000 --> 0:57:27.520
<v Speaker 3>you and the podcast Savor wherever you get your podcasts.

0:57:26.960 --> 0:57:30.560
<v Speaker 2>And that is Savor without a you. Yeah, not that

0:57:30.920 --> 0:57:33.040
<v Speaker 2>people would assume there's a U and savor unless they're

0:57:33.080 --> 0:57:38.800
<v Speaker 2>from Turf Island. But anyway, Hi everyone and bye.

0:57:40.360 --> 0:57:42.840
<v Speaker 1>Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

0:57:42.920 --> 0:57:46.040
<v Speaker 1>cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,

0:57:46.160 --> 0:57:49.400
<v Speaker 1>visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

0:57:49.520 --> 0:57:52.880
<v Speaker 1>on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

0:57:52.920 --> 0:57:54.080
<v Speaker 1>your podcasts.