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Speaker 1: Cool Zone Media.

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Speaker 2: Hello, and welcome to the show that you already know

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Speaker 2: the name of the title of because you clicked on it.

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Speaker 2: I'm your host, Marto Kiljoy and I have a guest,

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Speaker 2: and my guest is Annie Reese.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Anny Reese, Yes, Hello, I'm so happy to be here,

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Speaker 3: happy to be back.

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Speaker 2: Thanks. On this day, that's totally a different day than

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Speaker 2: the previous day. Definitely, yeah, because this is live. People

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Speaker 2: don't know that because it's not true. But Annie Reese

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Speaker 2: is a podcaster and is the host of saver, a

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Speaker 2: food podcast. Although now you know that it actually isn't

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Speaker 2: a different day. If it was two days from now,

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Speaker 2: I would have now listened to savor ye because it

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Speaker 2: sounds really up my alley, but I didn't because actually

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Speaker 2: we only recorded part one about five minutes ago.

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Speaker 3: So you're revealing how the sausage gets made.

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Speaker 2: I know, Terrible is really just giving them all the secrets.

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Speaker 2: It's okay, like the fact we have a secret producer

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Speaker 2: never introduced before. Never Sophie Lichterman.

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Speaker 3: Hehy, are you, Sophie. I'm all right.

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Speaker 1: I lost my voice last week, so it's like slightly

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Speaker 1: scratchy still.

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Speaker 2: Any particular reason or just for fun.

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Speaker 1: I just was like, man, I don't need it anymore.

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Speaker 3: It's fine, Yeah, you don't, like you don't work in audio.

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Speaker 1: So I was like, fuck it, I don't need that thing.

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Speaker 2: You know. It's like now these days, you get a

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Speaker 2: cold and then your voice is like slightly different for

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Speaker 2: several months. Yeah, And I have a bunch of audio

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Speaker 2: books I have to record, and then I keep being like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna put it off until my voice gets back

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Speaker 2: to normal, and then I'm like I don't know what

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Speaker 2: normal is anymore.

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Speaker 3: And recording an audiobook, I've only done one, but it's

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Speaker 3: a whole thing. It's annoying, it is, and it's like,

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Speaker 3: why don't you just for five hours not mispronounce anything?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, because every time you do, you have to click

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Speaker 2: on your computer and go back.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. And then you're reading the stuff you've written, and

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Speaker 3: then you're like, maybe I should have I wish I

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Speaker 3: had known I had to read this aloud.

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Speaker 2: You know, but this is revealing more information about you

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Speaker 2: than I previously knew. Oh no, what was the book

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Speaker 2: that you read?

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Speaker 3: Well, stuff I've never told you has a book?

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Speaker 2: And do you do the audiobook?

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Speaker 3: Yes? We did so Samantha McVeigh, who has been a

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Speaker 3: guest on the show before. She is my wondrous co

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Speaker 3: host and a great friend of mine. We read it together,

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Speaker 3: but foolishly we didn't realize we were going to have

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Speaker 3: to do the audiobook, and so we were sitting there

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Speaker 3: next to each other just bewildered, like, oh gosh, I

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Speaker 3: would not have written this if I had known. But

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Speaker 3: she was a great support throughout the whole thing. So

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Speaker 3: shout out to having supportive friends who help you get

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Speaker 3: through something like reading an audiobook for five hours that

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Speaker 3: can be very intense. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: I always do that alone in a closet, So like,

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Speaker 2: that's pretty good.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, the subject matter was a little deep, so I

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Speaker 3: was like, this is yeah, yeah, yeah, but check it out.

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Speaker 3: It's good.

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Speaker 2: Well. Also, we have an audio engineer named Eva.

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Speaker 3: Hi Eva hi Eva hi Eva.

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Speaker 2: And our theme music was written for us Beyond Woman,

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Speaker 2: and this is part two about well, it's gonna be

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Speaker 2: a lot of parts about the things that the government's

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Speaker 2: trying to take away from us. And this was going

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Speaker 2: to be a glorious episode about how purely amazing the

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Speaker 2: polio vaccine is. And then it got more interesting and

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Speaker 2: fun when I found out that the person who gets

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Speaker 2: called the destroyer of polio was not that, but was

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Speaker 2: interesting and strange. And so we are telling the story

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Speaker 2: of Jonas Salk, the man who was part of a

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Speaker 2: large project and then gets whatever you've already heard me

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Speaker 2: complain about this. So he is just start to do

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Speaker 2: some flu vaccine stuff. He's not actually the one who

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Speaker 2: you know, he's not in charge of this project, but

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Speaker 2: he's part of it. And students at the university start

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Speaker 2: getting vaccinated too, and so fewer of them were getting sick.

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Speaker 2: Soon after that, they started studying how to put multiple

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Speaker 2: strains of flu into the one vaccine. But there's a

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Speaker 2: problem with this, right, If you put a whole lot

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Speaker 2: of different flu into a vaccine, it starts being like, well,

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Speaker 2: that's a lot of stuff in one shot, right, And

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Speaker 2: people started experimenting with what are called adjuvants, which is

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Speaker 2: what you can add to boost a vaccine's immunological response

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Speaker 2: without upping the viral load. It's basically stuff that's like magnifying.

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Speaker 2: It feels like a video game to me, where you're like, oh,

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Speaker 2: if you have this thing, it like works really well

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Speaker 2: with this other thing, and it like boosts the thing.

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Speaker 3: You know, Yeah, kind of like D and D. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: you can get exactly.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I would argue that anyone who's played D and

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Speaker 2: D who's anti vax didn't play D and D. I

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Speaker 2: cannot imagine being like, you want a plus one shield

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Speaker 2: and you're like, oh no, it doesn't make you completely

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Speaker 2: safe forever. So I don't want to plus one shield

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Speaker 2: and you're like, who are you? Why are you playing

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Speaker 2: Dungeons and Dragons.

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Speaker 3: I just feel like I need more of the science.

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Speaker 3: I need to do my own research, and I'm just

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Speaker 3: going to run into this battle without. I don't need that.

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Speaker 3: I don't.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, totally.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: You're like, all right, you went up a level. Do

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Speaker 2: you want all the new powers that come with the

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Speaker 2: upper level. I'm like, uh, that's like the way that

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Speaker 2: the man wanted the dungeon master told me to do that.

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Speaker 2: I don't. I don't trust that person.

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Speaker 3: I don't trust that at all.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. So, when you read about Sulk, you read about

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Speaker 2: how people loved him, but scientists hated him. And if

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Speaker 2: you read something a bit more of one of these

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Speaker 2: hagiographies as most writing about him, is the reason that

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Speaker 2: scientists hated him is that he bucked the trends. He

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Speaker 2: was a maverick who refused to play by the rules

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Speaker 2: or whatever. If you read more critical writing about him

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Speaker 2: is that he was attention seeking, risk taking idea, taking

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Speaker 2: credit for eing, and kind of mercenary and reckless about

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Speaker 2: that mercenary part of it. He pissed off his colleagues

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Speaker 2: a lot while they're working on the flu shot because

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Speaker 2: he made a deal with a pharmaceutical company, Park Davison Company,

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Speaker 2: to give them exclusive vaccine information in exchange for royalties

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Speaker 2: for the sale of the vaccine. This pissed off Francis,

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Speaker 2: the person heading up the project, and they I don't

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Speaker 2: think they ever rekindle their friendship.

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Speaker 3: The bridge burned, Yeah sounds like yeah.

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Speaker 2: I lose track of the number of bridges he burned.

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Speaker 2: It might be that they reconnected with this particular person later,

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Speaker 2: but I don't believe so. And it's presented as like

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Speaker 2: and then after that, he just wanted to be more

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Speaker 2: independent in his research, and I'm like, no, he probably

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Speaker 2: got a run out for being a capitalist dick bag.

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Speaker 2: He's like, I want to be more independent in my research.

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Speaker 2: So he moved to Pittsburgh and became the director of

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Speaker 2: the Virus Research Laboratory at the University of Pittsburgh's Medical School.

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Speaker 2: This is not a prestigious appointment. It is in a

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Speaker 2: forty by forty foot basement that is sometimes used as

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Speaker 2: a morgue when they need overflow morge space. Originally, he

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Speaker 2: was just going to work on the flu and measles

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Speaker 2: and the common cold, but he was recruited by an

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Speaker 2: organization called the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis, which is

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Speaker 2: this massive nonprofit fundraising organization. This is basically the like

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Speaker 2: Polio group. It was founded by FDR, the most famous

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Speaker 2: polio victim in the world, and FDR put his weight

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Speaker 2: behind it and they ran a fundraising campaign which is

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Speaker 2: actually still around called the March of Dimes. And this

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Speaker 2: started when a bunch of Hollywood stars asked people to

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Speaker 2: mail a dime to the White House, and that you

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Speaker 2: know the inherent thought of this, I mean, it's mostly

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Speaker 2: the thing that the government should just do anyway. But

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Speaker 2: the idea is that this would help pay for the

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Speaker 2: cost of treatment for polio patients, which basically no one

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Speaker 2: could afford. It was incredibly expensive to take care of

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Speaker 2: a polio patient and there's no health insurance really at

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Speaker 2: this point, and like, it's hard to imagine a war

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Speaker 2: system than we currently have. But that's where they were

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Speaker 2: this organization. I think eighty million people donated to this,

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Speaker 2: which is like, I don't know what the population of

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Speaker 2: the US it was in nineteen thirty whatever. I assume

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Speaker 2: it's about eighty million people. I don't know.

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Speaker 3: I also am stuck in my like modern brain where

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Speaker 3: I'm like, the cost of mailing a.

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Speaker 2: Die Oh yeah, totally like that. I guess the equivalent

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Speaker 2: would be like mailing a dollar now, which still kind

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Speaker 2: of barely works out.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. Hey, it sounds like a lot of people got

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Speaker 3: into it.

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Speaker 1: I know.

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Speaker 2: Also, you're like not supposed to mail cash anymore, and

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Speaker 2: that change.

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Speaker 3: Oh that's interesting, Okay.

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Speaker 2: And so the president founded this organization, but the guy

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Speaker 2: who ran this organization, the National Foundation for Infantile Paralysis,

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Speaker 2: very specifically didn't want the government to be the one

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Speaker 2: funding polio research because if the government funds medical research,

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Speaker 2: communism wins. No, we can't have that.

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Speaker 3: Let all those kids die, you know, you know, not

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Speaker 3: communism though.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And so it's about private fundraising, getting everyone

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Speaker 2: to donate. There's a word for getting everyone in the

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Speaker 2: country to donate to something. It's called taxes.

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Speaker 3: Yep, yep.

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Speaker 2: So Sulk in the Pittsburgh Research Center, they're like, all right,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna fucking do this. We're gonna cure polio, or rather,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna stop polio. And there was a lot of

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Speaker 2: work involved in this, and not just like try stuff

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Speaker 2: out and see what works, but rather grunt labor of

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Speaker 2: typing a ton of different strains of polio. There's three strains,

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Speaker 2: and then within each strain there's just like a whole

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Speaker 2: bunch of types that are a little sub guys, only

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Speaker 2: two had been typed before. And it is long, slow,

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Speaker 2: boring work that kills an incredible number of monkeys and

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Speaker 2: has to be done incredibly attentively. So Sulk and his

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Speaker 2: team started killing those monkeys. That's not the way I

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Speaker 2: want to phrase it. They started doing that work. Crucially,

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Speaker 2: they are building on the work of a lot of

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Speaker 2: people before them, and the work that a lot of

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Speaker 2: their peers at other research institutions are still doing. The

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Speaker 2: old way of typing polio. The style at the time

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Speaker 2: involved okay, you get a lab monkey and you give

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Speaker 2: it inoculations of a known type, and so then it

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Speaker 2: has like the one polio antibodies, right, and then you

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Speaker 2: extract the monkey's blood, you combine it with an unknown

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Speaker 2: type of polio, and then you inject it back into

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Speaker 2: the brain of an uninfected monkey. If the monkey doesn't

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Speaker 2: get sick, then the unknown type is similar to the

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Speaker 2: type that the inoculated monkey at antibioties against, right, Because

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Speaker 2: you're like, ah, well it was protected against this, you know, right, folks,

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Speaker 2: Maybe Salk I'm honestly suspicious of the shit I read

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Speaker 2: that talks him up at this point and attributes various

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Speaker 2: inventions to him. He figured out that you could use

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Speaker 2: mineral oil to make a smaller amount of a virus

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Speaker 2: cause a larger antibody response. That thing I talked about

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Speaker 2: earlier that I forget the name of it, and it

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Speaker 2: didn't write down on my script the word I'd never

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Speaker 2: heard before and couldn't pronounce. By using mineral oil, Salk's

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Speaker 2: team figured out that they could reduce the number of

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Speaker 2: monkeys who had to die in order to isolate each

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Speaker 2: type of polio. Previously, each type took forty monkeys. Now

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Speaker 2: they could do it with only fifteen monnkeys. That is

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Speaker 2: a saving of twenty five monkeys and if you want

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Speaker 2: to save well, I guess it's not really time for

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Speaker 2: an ad break, but that would have been so good.

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Speaker 2: Just imagine the.

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Speaker 3: Ads just do it early.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, fuck it, here's the ads. Save some monkeys, save

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Speaker 2: your own monkeys by spending other monkeys' lives on our

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Speaker 2: goods and services.

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Speaker 3: There you go, no rules here, some but not a lot.

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Speaker 2: Here they go and we're back. So they're doing this work.

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Speaker 2: And this is like the grunt labor of making a vaccine,

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Speaker 2: because you just like have to isolate every single known

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Speaker 2: type of polio. A man named Julius Jungner was on

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Speaker 2: Salk's team and was responsible for a lot of the

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Speaker 2: advancements that Sulk essentially took credit for. Julius had worked

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Speaker 2: on the Manhattan Project, so he was familiar with his

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Speaker 2: work having a seemingly positive end to some people and

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Speaker 2: a great deal of complicated. And why I don't even

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Speaker 2: see as complicated. It as bad that we dropped nukes

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Speaker 2: on cities full of innocent people. But you know whatever,

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Speaker 2: I can imagine during World War two being like, we

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Speaker 2: better develop this before the Nazis do. I could see

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Speaker 2: doing that, right, you know. He worked on that, and

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Speaker 2: then he moved to the University of Pittsburgh and he

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Speaker 2: developed a color test to determine how much virus is

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Speaker 2: in tissue, and this made the whole thing go faster.

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Speaker 2: He also figured out how to grow the virus in

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Speaker 2: large quantities, which is more or less the thing that

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Speaker 2: made the vaccine possible. As best as I can understand,

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Speaker 2: most of the rest of what Sulk's team did was

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Speaker 2: building on existing work and then just doing the work.

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Speaker 2: Like people were like, oh, we got to a menapolio vaccine.

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Speaker 2: These are the steps that are necessary, right because people

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Speaker 2: had already done the how are we going to do

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Speaker 2: this part? Except how are we going to get a

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Speaker 2: ton of poliovirus? So Julius Jungner is the one who

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Speaker 2: figures that out as far as they can tell, and

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Speaker 2: because you need a ton of poliovirus if you want

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Speaker 2: to inoculate the entire country and or the entire world.

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Speaker 2: He kept running up against the scientific establishment like he

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Speaker 2: would run up against the Committee on Typing, who kept

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Speaker 2: saying that like, no, none of us want to change

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Speaker 2: how we do things, and you need to stop being different,

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Speaker 2: is the way it is often presented, or they had

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Speaker 2: legitimate reasons against the stuff that these people were doing,

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Speaker 2: but people don't want to write about that because they

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Speaker 2: want to write about a hero. Salkin's team kind of

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Speaker 2: just did it anyway on the side, and to be fair,

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Speaker 2: they were probably right in this particular circumstance. They typed

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Speaker 2: seventy four strains of polio in a year in what

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Speaker 2: was expected to take three years, and they seemed to

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Speaker 2: do it right. It wasn't like about shortcuts. It was

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Speaker 2: about like finding better systems by which to do it.

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Speaker 2: And the committee was like, all right, fine, you always

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Speaker 2: all right, good enough. Twenty thousand monkeys died to type

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Speaker 2: polio and you're making a face of the who seems.

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Speaker 3: Like, no, oh my gosh, twenty thousand monkeys, it's terrible.

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Speaker 3: Let me. I know. It's interesting hearing this story now

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Speaker 3: because we've had so many developments since then, for good

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Speaker 3: and for bad, and some of them have, you know,

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Speaker 3: skewed us away from animal testing, but not always. But

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Speaker 3: also I find this whole hero story of Sock really

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Speaker 3: interesting because the parallels of what we're seeing now of

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Speaker 3: the anti vax movement is very much it feels in

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Speaker 3: line with what he was all about right, which is like,

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Speaker 3: no science establishment for me. I'm gonna do this, And

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Speaker 3: so it's strange to have.

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Speaker 2: These He's a move fast and brain things guy.

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Speaker 3: But he was doing it four vaccines, and now we

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Speaker 3: have it against vaccines.

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Speaker 2: I know, as I'm writing this, I'm like, man, if

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Speaker 2: RFK didn't hate this guy, you'd probably love this guy exactly, like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's a trip. So twenty thousand monkeys die, which is

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Speaker 2: less than it would have been without some developments that

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Speaker 2: they made. I don't know. I don't know to do

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Speaker 2: math like that. I try not to. And there were

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Speaker 2: and are three broad types of polio, types one, two,

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Speaker 2: and three, which is fairly easy to remember how many

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Speaker 2: there are. Type one is eighty percent of cases, and

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Speaker 2: then types two and three are about ten percent of

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Speaker 2: cases each. Type two is almost entirely benign, Type three

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Speaker 2: is the deadliest, and type one is the typical paralytic

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Speaker 2: one that we talked about. Fortunately for our researchers, there

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Speaker 2: just wasn't a ton of variants in polo like influenza,

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Speaker 2: so it was a very good candidate for vaccines. When

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Speaker 2: people started growing polio on purpose, they grew it in

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Speaker 2: the nervous systems of human fetuses dead ones in the

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Speaker 2: nineteen thirties. By nineteen forty nine, some folks in Boston

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Speaker 2: managed to grow it onto other human tissue like skin

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Speaker 2: and muscle and kidney, and that got other people the

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Speaker 2: Nobel Prize. In nineteen fifty four. People are like, how

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Speaker 2: come Salk never got a Nobel Prize? But this is

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Speaker 2: the only Nobel Prize for polio that happened. Is that

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Speaker 2: people figure how to grow it on different tissue. And

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Speaker 2: Saul was like, all right, that's a good idea, and

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Speaker 2: so he grew it in monkey tissue, a mix of

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Speaker 2: testes and kidneys. This might have been the part that

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Speaker 2: was Yogner's idea. That's my combining two different sources is

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Speaker 2: to come with my own conjecture. Now they can bulk

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Speaker 2: make polio, and they understand the types of polio, and

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Speaker 2: so it's just time to start doing it. They pick

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Speaker 2: the most antibody producing strains of each type of polio

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Speaker 2: and not coincidentally, also the most dangerous, and then they

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Speaker 2: use formaldehyde to quote unquote kill the virus. More technically,

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Speaker 2: this inactivates the virus. Sulk was fantastically good at science communication.

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Speaker 2: This is maybe the one thing you can't really take

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Speaker 2: away from him. He was good at explaining ideas to

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Speaker 2: a broad audience. Which is funny though, because then I

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Speaker 2: read a whole bunch of excerpts of one of his

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Speaker 2: later biophilosophy books, and I'm like, no, this is incredibly

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Speaker 2: badly written. Like it is like comically badly written.

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Speaker 3: Do you think people were just talking him up? Or

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Speaker 3: was it like a thing of the time.

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Speaker 2: I think he was good on camera, and his biophilosophy

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Speaker 2: books are later he basically win that out right. He's

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Speaker 2: like high on his own supply, and he's like, I

341
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Speaker 2: do whatever I want. I'm a biophilosopher. Now what is that?

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Speaker 2: And he's like, let me tell you, And they're like,

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Speaker 2: I wish I had never asked. I'm so sorry. He

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Speaker 2: spent more and more time in the limelight, talking to

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Speaker 2: newspapers and radio audiences and bringing photographers into the lab,

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Speaker 2: which is no longer a forty by forty basement, it

347
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Speaker 2: is several floors and thousands of square feet. June nineteen

348
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Speaker 2: fifty two was the worst outbreak of polio and human

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Speaker 2: history so far. I would have just said in human history,

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Speaker 2: but you know, we have the future to look forward

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Speaker 2: to now, and Salk has something of a vaccine in

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Speaker 2: the works, so they started limited testing. So he headed

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Speaker 2: on out to the DT Watson Home for Crippled Children

354
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Speaker 2: to test the vaccine on polio victims. This time parents

355
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Speaker 2: were asked for consent. I mean, I think he's just

356
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Speaker 2: kids for consent, but you know, at least progress is

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Speaker 2: being made along consent lines. The kids would not be

358
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Speaker 2: helped in any way by this, because like, if you

359
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Speaker 2: test a vaccine on people who've never gotten the disease,

360
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Speaker 2: at least if it works, they are now vaccinated, right,

361
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Speaker 2: But these kids have already gotten polio. It is a

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Speaker 2: good way to test for antibodies and side effects, and

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Speaker 2: it's basically the kids like helping science at some risk

364
00:20:16,640 --> 00:20:19,760
Speaker 2: to themselves, but not great risk to themselves. No one

365
00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:22,520
Speaker 2: had adverse effects, and all of them got more antibodies.

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Speaker 2: So then he tested on crippled children without polio. This

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Speaker 2: is the way it was phrased at the time, and

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00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:35,119
Speaker 2: this sounds awful, but it makes some sense. If you

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Speaker 2: test this on someone who's already not able to use

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Speaker 2: their limbs, if they accidentally get polio, they're less likely

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Speaker 2: to get worse than they already are. This could still

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Speaker 2: kill them, though all twenty seven in the second trial

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Speaker 2: were fine. Then they tested the kid's blood on monkey

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Speaker 2: kidney cells and that worked too. Then he worked on

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Speaker 2: sixty three kids with mental disabate, which the justification that

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Speaker 2: salkas is that they are already isolated from society and illness,

377
00:21:06,680 --> 00:21:08,800
Speaker 2: so they haven't been as exposed to illness, so they're

378
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Speaker 2: a blank slate, and they have a lot of health records.

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Speaker 2: Not all of these kids have parents who could consent,

380
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Speaker 2: but don't worry. The state's Department of Welfare provided that consent.

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Speaker 3: No, I'm a little worried.

382
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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, I'm wanted to and to be fair and

383
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Speaker 2: or this is what the people who write really glowing

384
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Speaker 2: things about him say. He worried like hell as he

385
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Speaker 2: did this, he said of doing these trials. Quote, when

386
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Speaker 2: you inoculate children with a polio vaccine for the first time,

387
00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:44,040
Speaker 2: you don't sleep well for two or three weeks. And

388
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Speaker 2: like he probably said that, and he probably meant it.

389
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Speaker 2: Like everything I've read about him, he is aware of

390
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Speaker 2: the human impacts of what he's doing and sees it

391
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Speaker 2: as a greater good thing. But he's not callous about it,

392
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Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, he's maybe a little cavalier.

393
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Speaker 3: He sounds like a I'm trying to wrap my mind around.

394
00:22:07,560 --> 00:22:11,280
Speaker 3: He feels like the science version of Oh, I want

395
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Speaker 3: to be remembered. I want to do this great thing totally.

396
00:22:14,280 --> 00:22:16,879
Speaker 3: I want to be known for this in the history books.

397
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Speaker 2: He talks about that shit constantly.

398
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Speaker 3: Yeah, he has that vibe, which can be very I

399
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:24,560
Speaker 3: don't care how many monkeys have to die. I'm in

400
00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:28,359
Speaker 3: the kids I have to experiment on. But at the

401
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 3: same time, it also sounds like it wasn't all about

402
00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,240
Speaker 3: I just want to be remembered. He actually did want

403
00:22:35,320 --> 00:22:38,080
Speaker 3: to get to this vaccine. Yeah.

404
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Speaker 2: I think at the end of the day, his goal

405
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:45,160
Speaker 2: was to cure polio, not to become rich and famous, like.

406
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Speaker 3: Which makes it all the more complicated.

407
00:22:47,119 --> 00:22:52,639
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and like, this is what it took to

408
00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:58,520
Speaker 2: save so many millions of children's lives. You know, this

409
00:22:58,600 --> 00:23:00,560
Speaker 2: doesn't mean that was the way that it should have

410
00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:02,639
Speaker 2: been done or had to have been done, but it

411
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:07,800
Speaker 2: is the way that it was done. Right in the

412
00:23:07,880 --> 00:23:11,440
Speaker 2: children's hospitals, he had incredible bedside manner. He would laugh

413
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:13,639
Speaker 2: at the kids, he would talk through their fears he

414
00:23:13,640 --> 00:23:20,840
Speaker 2: would answer questions. And I think this does matter because

415
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 2: part of the evil dystopia of like doctor's non consent

416
00:23:24,720 --> 00:23:28,640
Speaker 2: whatever is the like they're just gonna ignore you. You're

417
00:23:28,680 --> 00:23:33,479
Speaker 2: just there, you're just meet you know, I said earlier,

418
00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:35,600
Speaker 2: this is the style of how it's done. At the time.

419
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:37,960
Speaker 2: When he presented his findings in nineteen fifty three to

420
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Speaker 2: the Committee on Immunization, they were like, you did fucking

421
00:23:41,000 --> 00:23:49,760
Speaker 2: what hold up? Yeah, And then the whole thing leaked

422
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:54,080
Speaker 2: to the press, and I wouldn't Maybe someone does know

423
00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 2: and has written about who leaked it to the press.

424
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Speaker 2: I don't know. I leaned towards this man leaking it

425
00:23:59,040 --> 00:24:01,080
Speaker 2: towards the press. I didn't lean towards that when I

426
00:24:01,119 --> 00:24:04,440
Speaker 2: wrote this script, but I like, as I learned more,

427
00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:07,400
Speaker 2: the whole thing leaked to the press, that the polio

428
00:24:07,480 --> 00:24:09,919
Speaker 2: vaccine was almost ready. It didn't leak to the press

429
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 2: like testing on children. It was hey, we think we

430
00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:16,359
Speaker 2: have a polio vaccine, which is true. They did think

431
00:24:16,400 --> 00:24:18,479
Speaker 2: they had a polio vaccine because they did have a

432
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 2: polio vaccine. So we talked to the press and he

433
00:24:22,440 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 2: was like, Hey, I'm actually just cautiously optimistic and the

434
00:24:24,960 --> 00:24:28,080
Speaker 2: press was like hooray, we're saved. And they called it

435
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:30,320
Speaker 2: the Salk vaccine, and he was like, please don't call

436
00:24:30,359 --> 00:24:32,359
Speaker 2: it that. But I don't know whether he was actually like,

437
00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:33,879
Speaker 2: please don't call it that, or if he was like,

438
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 2: oh no, please don't call it the Sulk vaccine. My

439
00:24:37,480 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: middle name, by the way, is Edward, you know, like

440
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,360
Speaker 2: I just don't write. And people are mad at him

441
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:46,399
Speaker 2: in the scientific world, and Jonas E. Salk is getting

442
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,720
Speaker 2: called Jonas E. Christ by the people who are mad

443
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,800
Speaker 2: at him.

444
00:24:50,840 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 3: Interesting.

445
00:24:52,119 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 2: Some reports say he hated the public life. Some say

446
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 2: he reveled in it. I don't fucking know.

447
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:04,960
Speaker 3: Jonahs E. Christ, I know, which.

448
00:25:04,760 --> 00:25:06,239
Speaker 2: Is funny because actually when he was a little kid

449
00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 2: and he kept talking about He's gonna save everyone, people

450
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:10,440
Speaker 2: used to call him like something like Jonas Christ or

451
00:25:10,480 --> 00:25:13,359
Speaker 2: something like that. And it's like a really funny nickname

452
00:25:13,400 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: to give a Jewish kid too, you know.

453
00:25:15,359 --> 00:25:18,320
Speaker 3: Right, yes, pretty good. And then he got the added

454
00:25:20,080 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 3: middle name that was given to you.

455
00:25:22,000 --> 00:25:28,639
Speaker 2: Yeah. At this point, totally wonderful father in law. So

456
00:25:28,680 --> 00:25:31,199
Speaker 2: at this point, the figure they might be ready for

457
00:25:31,280 --> 00:25:35,080
Speaker 2: broader trials. The public needs this vaccine, and there are

458
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 2: two groups that are opposed to this public trial. One

459
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:43,360
Speaker 2: had a point the people who support his direct competitor,

460
00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,320
Speaker 2: Albert Sabin, who was convinced that the dead virus vaccine

461
00:25:47,400 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: is dangerous. Saulk was using the most virulent type one strain,

462
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 2: so if any remained active formaldehyde didn't kill at all,

463
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 2: the patient would die. And formaldehyde in act activation was

464
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,000
Speaker 2: not particularly well studied at this time, and there was

465
00:26:04,200 --> 00:26:06,920
Speaker 2: no evidence that the dead virus approach would lead to

466
00:26:07,040 --> 00:26:12,879
Speaker 2: lasting immunity. Sabin was pushing for a live virus oral vaccine,

467
00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:18,840
Speaker 2: but that comes later, and then you've got early anti vaxers.

468
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:20,400
Speaker 3: Woo.

469
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:25,480
Speaker 2: A celebrity entertainment journalist, a podcaster of his day was

470
00:26:25,520 --> 00:26:28,760
Speaker 2: this guy, Walter Winshell. Apparently he's one of the originators

471
00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,199
Speaker 2: of the news's entertainment in radio and TV, and he

472
00:26:32,320 --> 00:26:34,760
Speaker 2: stirred up mass hysteria about how the vaccine was going

473
00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,920
Speaker 2: to kill all the school children. In response to the

474
00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,520
Speaker 2: Sok was like, I just vaccinated myself and all my children,

475
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:46,640
Speaker 2: which is true. And so in nineteen fifty four they

476
00:26:46,640 --> 00:26:50,040
Speaker 2: have the first big clinical trial. It is the largest

477
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:52,600
Speaker 2: clinical trial in history up to that point in the US.

478
00:26:53,320 --> 00:26:57,120
Speaker 2: One point five million kids were in the test. Six

479
00:26:57,200 --> 00:27:00,480
Speaker 2: hundred thousand of them got the vaccine. It was a

480
00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:04,480
Speaker 2: series of three shots, and the trial was a massive success.

481
00:27:04,760 --> 00:27:08,359
Speaker 2: And here's a chunk of like the thousands and thousands

482
00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 2: of people left out of this story who did a

483
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 2: ton of work? Is that coordinating this thing was a

484
00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: public health undertaking on an incredible level because you are

485
00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 2: tracking all of those one point five million people, and

486
00:27:21,080 --> 00:27:23,960
Speaker 2: you're doing it like more or less before computers. Like

487
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:25,160
Speaker 2: people did a lot of work.

488
00:27:26,040 --> 00:27:29,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, and for three shots, Oh gosh.

489
00:27:29,640 --> 00:27:31,199
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's like one shot and then a

490
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 2: month later, and then there's one shot a week later,

491
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:35,480
Speaker 2: and then a month later.

492
00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:37,560
Speaker 3: Yeah.

493
00:27:38,000 --> 00:27:40,520
Speaker 2: I think the most accurate headline I saw about this

494
00:27:40,640 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 2: was from an obituary of Sulk that this isn't the

495
00:27:43,520 --> 00:27:47,760
Speaker 2: polio vaccine that eradicated polio, but it was the polio

496
00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:55,480
Speaker 2: vaccine that quote turned the tide against polio. Jonas Salk

497
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,359
Speaker 2: gave this big speech in nineteen fifty five when they

498
00:27:58,400 --> 00:28:01,719
Speaker 2: announced the test results that it worked, the vaccine worked,

499
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:04,920
Speaker 2: we were going to stop polio. He thanked a ton

500
00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 2: of people. He did not think his team.

501
00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:12,920
Speaker 3: Or anyone on it, what are god interesting?

502
00:28:14,960 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 2: Ah huh? They all left crying.

503
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:22,760
Speaker 3: Oh that's sad. He got up there and he was like,

504
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:23,800
Speaker 3: you're welcome.

505
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:25,760
Speaker 2: It was all me, Yeah, totally.

506
00:28:25,880 --> 00:28:27,919
Speaker 3: And you keep waiting for your name, you know, or

507
00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:29,119
Speaker 3: some kind of recognition.

508
00:28:29,200 --> 00:28:32,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, this person usually working side by side with who's

509
00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 2: like kind of already taking credit for your work, and

510
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,320
Speaker 2: you're like, ah, but now he's going to say my

511
00:28:35,400 --> 00:28:41,760
Speaker 2: name at least finally. Yeah, right, never comes Youngner, the

512
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 2: guy who had actually invented a lot of the important shit,

513
00:28:44,480 --> 00:28:48,840
Speaker 2: said about this moment quote people really held it against

514
00:28:48,920 --> 00:28:51,720
Speaker 2: him that he had grand standard like that and really

515
00:28:51,760 --> 00:28:57,320
Speaker 2: done the most uncollegial thing that you can imagine. Jonah Sulk,

516
00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 2: for his part, never apologized for this and only spoke

517
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:04,560
Speaker 2: with Younger again once in their lives.

518
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:07,800
Speaker 3: Do we know how this meeting went?

519
00:29:08,520 --> 00:29:12,280
Speaker 2: I don't. I wish I did. Younger like later was like,

520
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:14,400
Speaker 2: I mean, he would say all kinds of shit about

521
00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 2: what had happened, but he would still also kind of

522
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 2: a team player, where he didn't try and tear down

523
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,680
Speaker 2: the vaccine and even Younger's coming out of this looking good.

524
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 2: Younger had even more damning stuff to say about Salk, though.

525
00:29:25,720 --> 00:29:30,680
Speaker 2: When you read about the incidents of vaccines mishaps right,

526
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:34,640
Speaker 2: which are like things that fuel anti vaccentiment today. There

527
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:37,960
Speaker 2: was something called the Cutter incident. There was a pharmaceutical

528
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:41,360
Speaker 2: company called Cutter. Because we live in this weird country

529
00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 2: where everything has to be done through all these private corporations,

530
00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 2: there's a bunch of different companies doing the vaccines, right,

531
00:29:46,680 --> 00:29:48,479
Speaker 2: and so the Salk vaccine is made by a lot

532
00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 2: of different places, and this one pharmaceutical company, Cutter, wasn't

533
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:58,479
Speaker 2: inactivating the virus effectively. This killed eleven people because it

534
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 2: caused the numbers in front of me anymore about a

535
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:06,600
Speaker 2: thousand people to get polio. Younger had seen the problems

536
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: at the Cutter laboratories factory and told Sulk about them,

537
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:14,240
Speaker 2: and then Sulk, as far as Younger can tell, didn't

538
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:18,480
Speaker 2: do anything about it, because that still happened. It's still

539
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:22,239
Speaker 2: like went forward and people got the Cutter vaccine and

540
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:28,480
Speaker 2: people died. And then in an interview Sulk went on,

541
00:30:28,480 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 2: I think it was TV, and he was like, you know,

542
00:30:30,560 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 2: I wouldn't pat in this vaccine because quote, how can

543
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: you pat in the sun? What a guy? Right? Well, sure,

544
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,720
Speaker 2: it turns out he and his team had been looking

545
00:30:44,720 --> 00:30:47,760
Speaker 2: into patenting it, but their attorney told them they didn't

546
00:30:47,800 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 2: have a chance in hell of successfully pattenting it because

547
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 2: it was built on prior work. It was not a

548
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:53,800
Speaker 2: new invention.

549
00:30:55,680 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 3: Don't you love it when someone's like, oh, I never

550
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,960
Speaker 3: would have done that, Yeah, and then you find out

551
00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:03,440
Speaker 3: later they definitely tried to do it.

552
00:31:03,600 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, totally. This is like one of the main things

553
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:10,200
Speaker 2: that is like held up as like this whenever there's

554
00:31:10,240 --> 00:31:14,240
Speaker 2: like a fucking meme level like Instagram post about Salk

555
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,640
Speaker 2: and the polio vaccine or whatever it's like. And he

556
00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:20,280
Speaker 2: refused to patent it because how can you patent the sun?

557
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 2: You know, you're like, well, their attorney had just told him, quote,

558
00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:28,080
Speaker 2: if there were any patentable novelty to be found in

559
00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:31,880
Speaker 2: this phase, it would lie within an extremely narrow scope

560
00:31:31,960 --> 00:31:33,400
Speaker 2: and be of doubtful value.

561
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 3: Doubtful value.

562
00:31:37,400 --> 00:31:41,400
Speaker 2: One guy Da Henderson, who's another like public health virus researcher. Guy.

563
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:43,840
Speaker 2: I almost fell down another rabbit hole about him, and

564
00:31:43,840 --> 00:31:47,800
Speaker 2: then I didn't. He has successfully fought smallpox, he put it. Quote.

565
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 2: Jonas came in at this point with pretty much everything

566
00:31:51,240 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 2: done except for moving on to wider scale human trials.

567
00:31:55,560 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 2: This vaccine helped a lot. It is a good vaccine.

568
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: It is what I got as a kid. Probably it

569
00:32:01,280 --> 00:32:03,640
Speaker 2: is probably what you, dear listener got as a kid

570
00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 2: if you were raised in America. The rollout was uneven

571
00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:12,880
Speaker 2: at the time, According to an article in the MIT

572
00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 2: Technology Review written by Angela Matsayak in two thousand and five, quote,

573
00:32:19,640 --> 00:32:23,440
Speaker 2: by nineteen sixty, less than one third of the population

574
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 2: under forty years of age had received the full course

575
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:29,760
Speaker 2: of three doses of the Salk vaccine plus a booster.

576
00:32:30,920 --> 00:32:33,800
Speaker 2: Most of those who had were white and from middle

577
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 2: and upper economic classes. The disease raged on in urban

578
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:42,240
Speaker 2: areas among African Americans and Puerto Ricans, and in certain

579
00:32:42,320 --> 00:32:46,640
Speaker 2: rural locales among Native Americans and members of isolated religious groups.

580
00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: Angela also says quote. While Salk's vaccine did slow down

581
00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 2: the incidents of polio among middle class Americans, its cost

582
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:01,080
Speaker 2: and its requirement of three in jactions and a booster

583
00:33:01,760 --> 00:33:04,920
Speaker 2: meant that for years the disease continued to affect the

584
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:08,760
Speaker 2: poor and others lacking access to proper medical care. It

585
00:33:08,800 --> 00:33:12,720
Speaker 2: was only after Albert Sabin's oral vaccine, which was cheap,

586
00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:16,600
Speaker 2: effective and easy to administer, was licensed for production in

587
00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:20,680
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty two that polio could be fully controlled in

588
00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:28,080
Speaker 2: the United States. So there's another problem too, right, They've

589
00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:30,560
Speaker 2: just developed this new vaccine, not the new new one,

590
00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,960
Speaker 2: but the AsSalt one. But America was so afraid of

591
00:33:35,000 --> 00:33:38,720
Speaker 2: communism that it couldn't be a public campaign of vaccination.

592
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:43,800
Speaker 2: It had to come from the nonprofit, and that nonprofit,

593
00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:47,040
Speaker 2: the Anti Communist Org that sponsored the whole thing, had

594
00:33:47,040 --> 00:33:50,560
Speaker 2: a total of nine million shots available. That was not

595
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: nearly enough. Everyone needed at least three or four. But

596
00:33:55,480 --> 00:34:01,719
Speaker 2: what they did need was products and services, because that's

597
00:34:01,760 --> 00:34:07,080
Speaker 2: how you really defeat communism is products and or services,

598
00:34:07,440 --> 00:34:09,360
Speaker 2: of which there are none in countries that are not

599
00:34:09,400 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 2: the United States of America. Obviously famously, that's why we

600
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 2: don't need to do global trade anymore, and we all

601
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,120
Speaker 2: can buy iPhones that were made in America.

602
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 3: It's just clear.

603
00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't see any problem with any of this,

604
00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 2: and if I did, I'd be a trader. And I'm anyway, whatever,

605
00:34:28,960 --> 00:34:38,040
Speaker 2: here's a bunch of ads, and we're back. If I

606
00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,319
Speaker 2: ever come back to this topic, it'll be to do

607
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:43,000
Speaker 2: a deeper dive on Albert Sabin and the vaccine that

608
00:34:43,040 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 2: defeated polio worldwide. The thing I thought I was writing

609
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:49,759
Speaker 2: about when I got biographies about fucking anyway. But this

610
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 2: was my eleventh hour surprise during my research. So Albert

611
00:34:54,800 --> 00:35:00,719
Speaker 2: Sabin he was born Abram Sepperstein in nineteen eighteen in

612
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:03,160
Speaker 2: the now Polish city of Bali, stock Well. It was

613
00:35:03,160 --> 00:35:04,920
Speaker 2: always Polish, but it was part of the Russian Empire.

614
00:35:06,719 --> 00:35:08,640
Speaker 2: And when he came to the States in nineteen thirty

615
00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 2: or so with his parents, they anglicized his name. He

616
00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:16,719
Speaker 2: became Albert Saven. He spent World War Two traveling all

617
00:35:16,760 --> 00:35:19,680
Speaker 2: over the world helping develop vaccines against the insect born

618
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:25,319
Speaker 2: diseases that soldiers were getting. He basically like did all

619
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:28,240
Speaker 2: the stuff that people claimed Sock did.

620
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's like sock is the even though the inverse

621
00:35:33,840 --> 00:35:37,239
Speaker 3: in terms of the timeline, he's basically like the inspiration

622
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:41,400
Speaker 3: for socks, like the movie character you see, Yeah, at

623
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 3: least the one that was actually out there too.

624
00:35:43,239 --> 00:35:47,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, And he wanted a live vaccine for polio, and

625
00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:50,000
Speaker 2: some of this was like he just sort of believed

626
00:35:50,000 --> 00:35:54,040
Speaker 2: in the axiom that dead vaccines don't solve viral problems

627
00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 2: or whatever, right, But all public support for his vaccine

628
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:03,440
Speaker 2: disappeared because the Salk vaccine dropped even though it didn't

629
00:36:03,480 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 2: eradicate polio, because it wasn't able to be rolled out enough.

630
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:12,080
Speaker 2: So he started collaborating internationally because he couldn't get support

631
00:36:12,120 --> 00:36:15,120
Speaker 2: in the United States. Famously, anyone who listens to the

632
00:36:15,120 --> 00:36:19,600
Speaker 2: show knows that I'm not a big USSR person. The

633
00:36:19,640 --> 00:36:23,960
Speaker 2: mass testing for the vaccine that eradicated polio happened in

634
00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:29,360
Speaker 2: the USSR. Salk and Sobin were actually both invited to

635
00:36:29,400 --> 00:36:34,920
Speaker 2: the USSR, but Salk didn't go and Sabin did. So

636
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,920
Speaker 2: one hundred million people in the USSR were part of

637
00:36:38,960 --> 00:36:43,160
Speaker 2: those trials from nineteen fifty five to nineteen sixty one.

638
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,880
Speaker 2: And it worked. So you have this oral vaccine and

639
00:36:47,920 --> 00:36:51,800
Speaker 2: it uses a live virus. Because it's a live virus,

640
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:56,160
Speaker 2: it creates a stronger immune response and gives longer lasting protection.

641
00:36:57,000 --> 00:36:59,319
Speaker 2: You don't need needles to administer it. They put it

642
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:01,480
Speaker 2: on a sugarcue. This is where the whole spoonful of

643
00:37:01,480 --> 00:37:03,680
Speaker 2: sugar makes the medicine go down. Thing. Apparently like it

644
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 2: was like a reference to this, Oh, I don't know

645
00:37:07,280 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 2: I read that, but I'm like, I'm like, nah, But

646
00:37:10,640 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 2: apparently you don't need boosters. You just need a sugar cube.

647
00:37:16,840 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 2: And because it's live, it's contagious, but in a good way.

648
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:24,880
Speaker 2: You get vaccinated, Like they give you a fucking sugar cube,

649
00:37:24,920 --> 00:37:28,040
Speaker 2: you eat it, and then you go home to your

650
00:37:28,040 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 2: town or village or whatever, and you spread antibodies naturally,

651
00:37:33,239 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 2: and everyone you spread it to is now immune topolio two.

652
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:40,520
Speaker 2: There is a downside to this. There's a reason that

653
00:37:40,560 --> 00:37:43,799
Speaker 2: we use the dead vaccine here in the United States.

654
00:37:44,719 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 2: A few people die every now and then. I've read

655
00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 2: eight to ten people around the world per year, but

656
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:52,399
Speaker 2: I've also read that it's not every year, and it's

657
00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:56,839
Speaker 2: fewer people than that. I don't know. Basically, like this

658
00:37:56,880 --> 00:37:59,239
Speaker 2: is getting an administered to millions of people every year,

659
00:38:00,239 --> 00:38:04,440
Speaker 2: an eight to ten or so of them die, and

660
00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 2: the people who die, they do so because occasionally, incredibly rarely,

661
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:12,120
Speaker 2: the virus mutates and becomes active and you have an outbreak,

662
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:17,720
Speaker 2: which is then solved by administering a vaccine. The perfect

663
00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 2: solution to polio that the World Health Organization suggests is

664
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:25,280
Speaker 2: that you use both. You use the sabin vaccine first,

665
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:28,040
Speaker 2: and it creates actual herd immunity. Herd immunity is not

666
00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,439
Speaker 2: the word for let everyone get sick. It's the word

667
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:35,440
Speaker 2: for get everyone antibodies. Use the Sabin vaccine and eradicate

668
00:38:35,520 --> 00:38:39,480
Speaker 2: wild polio. Then you switch over to the Salk vaccine

669
00:38:39,520 --> 00:38:43,040
Speaker 2: to keep it dead. It just costs more money to

670
00:38:43,080 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 2: do it this way. That's what happened in the US

671
00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:50,600
Speaker 2: is that they use Salk's vaccine for a little while,

672
00:38:50,719 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 2: but it didn't really do enough, and so then people

673
00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,480
Speaker 2: are like, how come the Commis get the good American

674
00:38:55,560 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 2: vaccine and we don't get the good American vaccine. So

675
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:02,479
Speaker 2: then they started using the Sabin vaccine, and then once

676
00:39:02,560 --> 00:39:06,200
Speaker 2: wild polio was eradicated, they switched back over to the

677
00:39:06,239 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 2: Salk vaccine. When I was like, Savin did all the

678
00:39:09,680 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 2: same stuff Sock did, but like kind of, Actually, Sabin

679
00:39:12,719 --> 00:39:15,480
Speaker 2: also tested the vaccine on himself and his family, and

680
00:39:15,520 --> 00:39:20,439
Speaker 2: he also didn't patent it, And there isn't as much

681
00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 2: information about him not patenting it that I'm able to find,

682
00:39:24,200 --> 00:39:25,960
Speaker 2: but it seems as though he would have made about

683
00:39:26,000 --> 00:39:32,600
Speaker 2: seven billion dollars if he had patented this. What instead

684
00:39:33,160 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 2: he lived off of a teacher's salary for his entire life.

685
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:38,759
Speaker 3: I want to be like good for him. But I

686
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:43,279
Speaker 3: also like, I hope, I hope that was purposeful. I

687
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 3: believe it was Okay. Well, then good for him.

688
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 2: He wrote, quote A lot of people insisted that I

689
00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:51,920
Speaker 2: should patent the vaccine, but I didn't want to do that.

690
00:39:52,520 --> 00:39:57,759
Speaker 2: It's my gift to all the world's children. And he

691
00:39:57,800 --> 00:40:01,520
Speaker 2: worked with Cuba in nineteen sixty two as Castro's Cuba

692
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:03,719
Speaker 2: was the first country to actually get They were like,

693
00:40:03,960 --> 00:40:05,560
Speaker 2: they were like, all right, we're going to actually commit

694
00:40:05,600 --> 00:40:07,759
Speaker 2: to getting rid of polio. And I believe that they

695
00:40:07,760 --> 00:40:12,960
Speaker 2: were the first country to succeed. But while Sabin's vaccine

696
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:16,600
Speaker 2: defeated polio around the world, America liked its doctor rock star,

697
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,440
Speaker 2: and Sulk remained the darling of the press and the

698
00:40:19,440 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 2: political establishment. His wife divorced him for quote extreme cruelty.

699
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:32,319
Speaker 3: Oh whoa. I was going to ask you earlier if

700
00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,440
Speaker 3: you thought that they had any love for each other.

701
00:40:34,520 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 2: And now, now, as best as I can tell, it

702
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 2: sounds abusive. It sounds emotionally abusive, even though he was

703
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 2: the one who had been like, come on, come on,

704
00:40:43,200 --> 00:40:45,600
Speaker 2: don't you want to get married. Come on, I don't

705
00:40:45,600 --> 00:40:48,160
Speaker 2: have a middle name. Give me a middle name. You know.

706
00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:53,239
Speaker 2: He was just constantly. His work was his life, and

707
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:55,360
Speaker 2: he like loved being famous, and he was like, oh,

708
00:40:55,400 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 2: the pretty girls like me. You know. Yeah, the thing

709
00:40:59,719 --> 00:41:01,680
Speaker 2: I it implies that both of them were cheating on

710
00:41:01,680 --> 00:41:03,880
Speaker 2: each other, But the thing I read implies it in

711
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 2: a way that's kind of like blaming her and then

712
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,879
Speaker 2: being like, I guess he did it too, And I'm like, man,

713
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 2: I wonder who fucking did it more? The fucking rock

714
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:16,680
Speaker 2: star anyway, whatever agreed, So he's like ignoring her. He's

715
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 2: like choosing where they live, constantly ignoring. She's got three

716
00:41:19,800 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 2: kids with them, and she's not having it anymore. That's

717
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 2: like the nicest version. They never really talked about it,

718
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,480
Speaker 2: and so when she says extreme cruelty, it probably means

719
00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 2: the sort of patterns of emotional abuse. But I don't know,

720
00:41:36,239 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 2: that's the nicest thing I can picture there.

721
00:41:39,280 --> 00:41:39,440
Speaker 3: You know.

722
00:41:40,600 --> 00:41:44,080
Speaker 2: Donna, his now ex wife, stays committed to leftist activism,

723
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,840
Speaker 2: but he's at this point, first sort of a political

724
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,120
Speaker 2: and then increasingly into sort of a mystical eugenics, although

725
00:41:52,960 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 2: a weirdly maybe leftist mystical eugenics. I don't know, I'll

726
00:41:56,560 --> 00:41:59,000
Speaker 2: get into it a second. He remarries to a woman

727
00:41:59,040 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 2: who also dated Paba Picasso. He wrote a bunch of

728
00:42:02,480 --> 00:42:05,160
Speaker 2: books about this biophilosophy stuff he did, where he's all

729
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 2: about like, just like we can understand viruses and bacteria,

730
00:42:08,560 --> 00:42:12,640
Speaker 2: we can understand the humans, which like a very normal

731
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 2: thing to think. And he wrote a book called Survival

732
00:42:18,000 --> 00:42:22,280
Speaker 2: of the Wisest. Oh no, if that name sounds sketchy,

733
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:26,040
Speaker 2: it's because the book is sketchy. I've read excerpts, and

734
00:42:26,080 --> 00:42:28,279
Speaker 2: I've read analysis, and I've also it's really fun to

735
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 2: read both the goodreads reviews and the archive dot org reviews,

736
00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 2: because there's a hick copy of that on archive dot

737
00:42:33,760 --> 00:42:37,600
Speaker 2: org and it is more or less calling for the

738
00:42:37,600 --> 00:42:40,719
Speaker 2: genocide of the stupid. Like one analysis I read was like,

739
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 2: this is just a book length thing where he's avoiding

740
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 2: using that word, where he continues to say like, well,

741
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,520
Speaker 2: the wisest people should develop a new morality as they

742
00:42:50,560 --> 00:42:55,960
Speaker 2: inherit the earth. In it, he writes, quote, if the

743
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 2: quality of human life is to improve, a process of

744
00:42:59,760 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 2: selet both natural and human will have to choose the

745
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:09,279
Speaker 2: wisest for positions of influence and power. Eventually, the struggling

746
00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,239
Speaker 2: in the human domain will be between the wise and

747
00:43:12,280 --> 00:43:16,440
Speaker 2: the non wise. This implies that those who lead others

748
00:43:16,480 --> 00:43:19,399
Speaker 2: in ways that are anti evolutionary or that are being

749
00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 2: counter to the natural process of becoming the being and

750
00:43:24,800 --> 00:43:28,040
Speaker 2: the and the being is capitalized like the t but

751
00:43:28,120 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 2: then being is all capitalized. I just want everyone to

752
00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:34,840
Speaker 2: know that aalk outs okay, will either be replaced by

753
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 2: others possessing wisdom akin to that of nature capital and

754
00:43:38,040 --> 00:43:42,719
Speaker 2: in nature, etc. Etc. You see what I mean where

755
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 2: I'm like, but this man isn't a good writer. Like

756
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,080
Speaker 2: when people are like, he's a really good science communicator,

757
00:43:48,120 --> 00:43:50,200
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, he's not a good philosophy communicator.

758
00:43:52,200 --> 00:43:57,320
Speaker 3: No. And to very oversimplify what I'm picking up here

759
00:43:58,200 --> 00:44:01,520
Speaker 3: is this was a very early version of you know,

760
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 3: nerds will inherit the earth like. He wanted power. He

761
00:44:05,840 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 3: wanted power, and this was his way of being this

762
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:14,480
Speaker 3: scientist rock star. I can be the powerful one. I'm wise,

763
00:44:15,480 --> 00:44:21,160
Speaker 3: it seems, don't particularly care if I have to run

764
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:28,239
Speaker 3: perhaps on ethical tests on mentally disabled people. Yeah, but

765
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 3: it's just very interesting to me because it feels very

766
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:36,400
Speaker 3: loud in him being like I'm the one with the power,

767
00:44:36,520 --> 00:44:40,319
Speaker 3: and totally that's what we should be placing it on

768
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:42,200
Speaker 3: is wisdom totally?

769
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:44,960
Speaker 2: Like, how is he defining wisdom in this context?

770
00:44:45,360 --> 00:44:48,600
Speaker 3: Exactly because it is true, Like you said, I'm all

771
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:53,360
Speaker 3: about wisdom. Oh yeah, that's not bad. Yeah, but it

772
00:44:53,560 --> 00:44:57,239
Speaker 3: just feels very he's placing it in terms of he

773
00:44:57,440 --> 00:44:58,720
Speaker 3: wanted more power.

774
00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:03,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, how they were going to do all this eugenic

775
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,439
Speaker 2: shit once they had power is that they would build

776
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:09,000
Speaker 2: RNA viruses with which to reprogram humans in the embryo.

777
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 3: No, I know, no, no im media, no from me.

778
00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,000
Speaker 2: All right, well then never mind. I was going to

779
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,880
Speaker 2: pitch our new biophilosophy podcast on cool Zone Media, but

780
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:24,680
Speaker 2: apparently that's.

781
00:45:24,560 --> 00:45:26,319
Speaker 3: A no, No, it's out.

782
00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:30,279
Speaker 2: I liked a review that was written on archive dot

783
00:45:30,360 --> 00:45:33,799
Speaker 2: org about this. There's a five star review quote a

784
00:45:33,920 --> 00:45:36,719
Speaker 2: must read for anyone interested in the thought process of

785
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:40,520
Speaker 2: a Malthusian psychopath. It is troubling to think that this

786
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:44,000
Speaker 2: man invented inoculations that were administered on a large scale.

787
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:48,000
Speaker 3: But it was five stars.

788
00:45:48,080 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, like it's like half ironic, but it's

789
00:45:50,680 --> 00:45:52,960
Speaker 2: like yeah, no, it's like a it's a very useful

790
00:45:52,960 --> 00:45:57,480
Speaker 2: book with which to understand this particular genre of like okay,

791
00:45:57,160 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 2: and what's interesting Again, I haven't read this book yet.

792
00:46:01,000 --> 00:46:03,520
Speaker 2: Most people talking about it are aware, they're like, this

793
00:46:03,680 --> 00:46:06,880
Speaker 2: is bad, right, But there's like some people who are

794
00:46:06,960 --> 00:46:10,399
Speaker 2: kind of like wellness influencer types who are like, oh,

795
00:46:10,480 --> 00:46:12,960
Speaker 2: this book is like so good to help us understanding

796
00:46:13,080 --> 00:46:17,200
Speaker 2: overpopulation and you know, how to be our best selves

797
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,719
Speaker 2: and and all of this stuff. You know, So I

798
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,080
Speaker 2: wouldn't be surprised if this eventually crops up as like

799
00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:28,960
Speaker 2: a new thing the right gloms onto. But I think again,

800
00:46:29,000 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 2: I haven't read the whole thing yet. I haven't read

801
00:46:30,480 --> 00:46:33,600
Speaker 2: more than excerps yet. One of the things that he

802
00:46:33,600 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 2: wants to get rid of is diseases, both of the

803
00:46:36,960 --> 00:46:43,280
Speaker 2: like susceptibility to whatever things that are bad and eugenics

804
00:46:43,280 --> 00:46:47,399
Speaker 2: to try and cut out, but also diseases like prejudice

805
00:46:47,520 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 2: and like bigotry. And so he's like, oh, we're going

806
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:55,400
Speaker 2: to eugenically get rid of racism. Is I think what

807
00:46:55,480 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 2: he's saying.

808
00:46:59,480 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 3: Wow, again, that's a real that's a mind fuck. To

809
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,600
Speaker 3: be honest with you, I know, that's just like the

810
00:47:08,719 --> 00:47:12,560
Speaker 3: opposite of eugenics. I don't know.

811
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:17,160
Speaker 2: I know, theoretically he'd be accidentally programming his own ideas

812
00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:21,799
Speaker 2: out of existence if he did this right. The other

813
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 2: thing that people say about him, Okay, when people paint

814
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:28,319
Speaker 2: the simple picture of Sulk, that is technically true, but

815
00:47:28,440 --> 00:47:32,080
Speaker 2: not is here is this man who dedicated his life

816
00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:35,719
Speaker 2: to trying to make the world better, defeated polio, and then,

817
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,520
Speaker 2: when he was well past retirement age, spent the rest

818
00:47:39,520 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 2: of his life up until his death, trying to make

819
00:47:42,280 --> 00:47:47,040
Speaker 2: a vaccine for AIDS. And that is true. He spent

820
00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:49,280
Speaker 2: the end of his life trying to create a vaccine

821
00:47:49,320 --> 00:47:53,040
Speaker 2: for AIDS. Once again, he trusted it enough that he

822
00:47:53,080 --> 00:47:56,560
Speaker 2: inoculated himself in nineteen eighty seven. I'm not mad at

823
00:47:56,640 --> 00:47:58,880
Speaker 2: him for trying any of this stuff. Despite some early

824
00:47:58,920 --> 00:48:02,760
Speaker 2: promising animal test results, he never succeeded. His dead virus approached.

825
00:48:02,760 --> 00:48:05,400
Speaker 2: Didn't hurt anyone, but it didn't make anyone better either.

826
00:48:06,520 --> 00:48:10,120
Speaker 2: Albert Sabin died in nineteen ninety three. Jonas Edward Salk

827
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,920
Speaker 2: died in nineteen ninety five. Yeah, we had our first

828
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:16,640
Speaker 2: polio outbreak in the US since nineteen seventy nine in

829
00:48:16,680 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 2: the year twenty twenty two, and one of rfk's advisors,

830
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:23,400
Speaker 2: this guy named Aaron Siri, tried to get the FDA

831
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:29,840
Speaker 2: to unapprove the polio vaccine, so good luck everyone.

832
00:48:30,080 --> 00:48:33,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's really bad. I mean the FDA chose the

833
00:48:33,680 --> 00:48:37,719
Speaker 1: guy to lead like the vaccine's division essentially at the

834
00:48:37,800 --> 00:48:41,319
Speaker 1: FDA is this guy named doctor Vine Prosad and like

835
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:44,160
Speaker 1: friend of the pod doctor Cavajda, and I.

836
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:47,240
Speaker 2: We fucking hate this guy. Sucks.

837
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:49,959
Speaker 1: He spent all of the pandemic trying to get people

838
00:48:50,000 --> 00:48:52,520
Speaker 1: not to get vaccinated. He's like a scream into.

839
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:53,480
Speaker 3: The void YouTube guy.

840
00:48:53,520 --> 00:48:56,439
Speaker 1: And he's not the guy that's in charge of the

841
00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:59,920
Speaker 1: vaccines division, which is so crazy.

842
00:49:00,160 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 3: It's so crazy.

843
00:49:01,840 --> 00:49:05,680
Speaker 2: It's like this being monstrously bad at math, Like take

844
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 2: the live polio vaccine. If it kills eight people every year,

845
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:14,160
Speaker 2: that's like not what we want a vaccine to do. Yeah, right,

846
00:49:14,880 --> 00:49:18,279
Speaker 2: if you have a ninety percent chance of dying or

847
00:49:18,320 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 2: a nine percent chance of dying, you pick the nine

848
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 2: percent chance of dying because it's a lot better. Yes,

849
00:49:26,280 --> 00:49:28,920
Speaker 2: you are so much safer. I was trying to explain

850
00:49:28,960 --> 00:49:30,480
Speaker 2: this to like one of my friends who kind of

851
00:49:30,480 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 2: went off of terrible direction during COVID sure, who didn't

852
00:49:35,280 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 2: want to take the vaccine, like, well, we don't know

853
00:49:37,080 --> 00:49:39,160
Speaker 2: what it does, And I'm like, but we do know

854
00:49:39,200 --> 00:49:42,200
Speaker 2: what COVID does, right, So do you take the door

855
00:49:42,239 --> 00:49:46,600
Speaker 2: that one hundred percent has a monster behind it? Or

856
00:49:46,640 --> 00:49:50,560
Speaker 2: do you take the door that point zero one percent

857
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:56,640
Speaker 2: has a monster behind it? Like that is really easy math.

858
00:49:56,880 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 1: It sure is the other thing that I you know,

859
00:50:00,080 --> 00:50:02,399
Speaker 1: I've pointed out. It's like it would be like if

860
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 1: they appointed me to make like basketball decisions for the

861
00:50:05,800 --> 00:50:06,960
Speaker 1: Boston Celtics, who.

862
00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,040
Speaker 3: I hate with a fiery pack.

863
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:14,279
Speaker 1: It's like, you can't assign a hater to be in

864
00:50:14,360 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 1: charge of the thing that they hate. Like that doesn't

865
00:50:16,400 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: make sense. Like this guy spent all of COVID and

866
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:24,080
Speaker 1: after it's still just like shitting on vaccines.

867
00:50:24,120 --> 00:50:27,439
Speaker 3: And they were like, that's the guy.

868
00:50:27,600 --> 00:50:31,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what we need. More vaccine skepticism, More skepticism

869
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 2: of the thing that has successfully destroyed the scariest disease

870
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 2: to Americans in nineteen fifty four.

871
00:50:37,719 --> 00:50:39,480
Speaker 1: We're currently working on our project that's going to come

872
00:50:39,480 --> 00:50:41,520
Speaker 1: out probably in May on he could happen here. That's

873
00:50:41,560 --> 00:50:44,239
Speaker 1: about what's going on with measles in Texas. Oh sure,

874
00:50:44,760 --> 00:50:46,640
Speaker 1: that'll be like an n entire week project that we're

875
00:50:46,640 --> 00:50:49,080
Speaker 1: working on with a local journalist out there. That kind

876
00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:51,319
Speaker 1: of explains a little bit about like how we got

877
00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:52,279
Speaker 1: to the skepticism a.

878
00:50:52,280 --> 00:50:52,799
Speaker 3: Little bit more.

879
00:50:52,880 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 2: M hmm.

880
00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:55,840
Speaker 1: And I think people should listen to that. When we

881
00:50:55,920 --> 00:50:57,120
Speaker 1: drop it, it's gonna be really good.

882
00:50:57,360 --> 00:50:59,879
Speaker 2: When I was doing this research, there was a there's

883
00:50:59,880 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 2: a moment in nineteen seventy six, we're actually both Sabin

884
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:05,640
Speaker 2: and Salk were both talking with the President during a

885
00:51:05,719 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 2: swine flu outbreak. That thing that Annie Reese currently.

886
00:51:08,320 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 3: Has survivor Oh okay, yeah.

887
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,680
Speaker 2: Is contagious for it forever, and everyone needs to make

888
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:16,640
Speaker 2: any a pariah. No, none of that's true.

889
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: None of that's true.

890
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:19,959
Speaker 3: But if you could get people to follow that six

891
00:51:20,000 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 3: foot rule again, oh my gosh.

892
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:23,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, that wouldn't be the worst thing in the world.

893
00:51:24,040 --> 00:51:25,799
Speaker 3: It would be only for me, though, wouldn't it.

894
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:28,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know I would feel better that you had

895
00:51:28,800 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 1: that boundary because I missed that boundary every day.

896
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:33,800
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy six, people thought there was gonna be

897
00:51:33,800 --> 00:51:36,399
Speaker 2: a really bad swine flu outbreak, and so they did

898
00:51:36,400 --> 00:51:38,520
Speaker 2: a lot of work trying to vaccinate, and like both

899
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:41,960
Speaker 2: Sabin and Salk, I believe were part of this process

900
00:51:42,000 --> 00:51:43,800
Speaker 2: of trying to get everyone to get a flu vaccine

901
00:51:43,840 --> 00:51:49,120
Speaker 2: that year, and there was like a like one in

902
00:51:49,160 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand incident of an increased potential risk of

903
00:51:54,000 --> 00:51:59,279
Speaker 2: like one particular thing or something. And then the swine

904
00:51:59,280 --> 00:52:01,520
Speaker 2: flu didn't really hit and so everyone was like, ah,

905
00:52:01,560 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 2: see it is bad, and people sometimes present it as

906
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:07,000
Speaker 2: the beginning of the modern anti vax movement. But then

907
00:52:07,080 --> 00:52:08,520
Speaker 2: I was reading other stuff that was like, no, that

908
00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:12,120
Speaker 2: actually isn't where there's no continuity there. It all comes

909
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,800
Speaker 2: back to that stupid fake autism study.

910
00:52:16,040 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I do think there's a lot of very

911
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,360
Speaker 3: it feels distinctly American to me. But I just feel

912
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:28,200
Speaker 3: like people got so pissed off that we were telling

913
00:52:28,239 --> 00:52:31,400
Speaker 3: them like you can't leave, you've gotta wear a mask,

914
00:52:32,040 --> 00:52:35,319
Speaker 3: Like we were giving them all these rules. Yeah, and

915
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:38,440
Speaker 3: instead of thinking of that herd immunity of like the

916
00:52:38,480 --> 00:52:43,440
Speaker 3: health for everyone, people were just angry that they couldn't

917
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 3: do what they wanted to do, and then they were isolated.

918
00:52:47,480 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 3: They were going on these rabbit holes that were telling

919
00:52:49,800 --> 00:52:53,360
Speaker 3: them like it's all a lie, it's five G it's.

920
00:52:53,280 --> 00:52:56,360
Speaker 1: Just yeah, instead of just realizing that, like you know,

921
00:52:57,000 --> 00:52:58,840
Speaker 1: I'm telling you I miss some of the COVID or

922
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 1: some I'm like, yeah, I wish you would wear a

923
00:53:00,640 --> 00:53:01,520
Speaker 1: mask on an airplane.

924
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:05,719
Speaker 3: You're in a fucking airless metal tube. A chewa, chew

925
00:53:05,719 --> 00:53:08,520
Speaker 3: a chew. Cough cough, cop Come on, I wish somebody

926
00:53:08,520 --> 00:53:11,600
Speaker 3: would wear a mask. Six foot rule miss you curb.

927
00:53:11,400 --> 00:53:12,239
Speaker 2: Side pick up?

928
00:53:13,120 --> 00:53:16,359
Speaker 3: Oh my god? Oh yeah, but.

929
00:53:16,400 --> 00:53:18,520
Speaker 1: Really the six foot thing, I'm like people used to

930
00:53:18,560 --> 00:53:22,560
Speaker 1: like give you like I loved it, and now it's

931
00:53:22,600 --> 00:53:25,479
Speaker 1: like you're in my bubble well.

932
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 2: I often have people stay about six feet away from

933
00:53:29,200 --> 00:53:32,640
Speaker 2: me right now. In order to accomplish that, you have

934
00:53:32,680 --> 00:53:34,799
Speaker 2: to wear all black and be it like kind of

935
00:53:34,800 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 2: strange trans girl.

936
00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:37,919
Speaker 3: Yeah.

937
00:53:38,040 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 1: As people travel and stuff, it's like we're you're often

938
00:53:40,680 --> 00:53:42,399
Speaker 1: the only person on a plane wearing a mask, which

939
00:53:42,400 --> 00:53:44,320
Speaker 1: is so baffling to me when.

940
00:53:44,160 --> 00:53:46,719
Speaker 2: I think about the nineteen eighteen flu pandemic, where like

941
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:49,800
Speaker 2: the new technology of cover your mouth when you cough.

942
00:53:50,200 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 2: We look back and we're like, ha ha, they didn't

943
00:53:52,600 --> 00:53:55,399
Speaker 2: know that we should have taken.

944
00:53:56,239 --> 00:53:59,839
Speaker 1: Wearing a mask on a plane.

945
00:54:00,000 --> 00:54:02,560
Speaker 3: Bring a mask when you go to a hospital or

946
00:54:02,560 --> 00:54:04,240
Speaker 3: to a doctor's office.

947
00:54:04,360 --> 00:54:08,120
Speaker 1: Or somewhere where you know that you're going to be

948
00:54:08,200 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 1: in a crowd space what an idea?

949
00:54:10,160 --> 00:54:12,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just as a social norm, there's no one

950
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:14,799
Speaker 2: who's going to I don't know. Maybe actually some things

951
00:54:14,840 --> 00:54:17,240
Speaker 2: do need to be mandate, I'm not sure. But overall,

952
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:18,879
Speaker 2: no one's going to arrest you if you just cough

953
00:54:18,880 --> 00:54:22,200
Speaker 2: into the air, right, but it sure is a faux

954
00:54:22,200 --> 00:54:26,759
Speaker 2: pas and it should be right. And like, I don't know,

955
00:54:26,880 --> 00:54:29,160
Speaker 2: I don't have solutions here around how public health should

956
00:54:29,160 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 2: be run. I am not enough of an expert. I

957
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 2: don't I genuinely don't think people should listen to podcasters

958
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:34,960
Speaker 2: around public health. I think they should listen to people

959
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:38,719
Speaker 2: who study it. But people should wear masks sometimes, and

960
00:54:38,760 --> 00:54:41,719
Speaker 2: people should sneeze into their crook of their elbow and

961
00:54:42,640 --> 00:54:46,120
Speaker 2: learn that hand sanitizer doesn't stop fecal oral transmission. And

962
00:54:47,680 --> 00:54:49,360
Speaker 2: you know, love that some stuff.

963
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:52,120
Speaker 3: I love how much you love that story.

964
00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:53,960
Speaker 2: I know, Well, it's manny too, because it's the kind

965
00:54:53,960 --> 00:54:55,719
Speaker 2: of thing that doesn't really impact people who don't live

966
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:57,400
Speaker 2: lives like I do. But if you go to like

967
00:54:57,400 --> 00:55:00,879
Speaker 2: like a forest defense camp, you have like everyone goes

968
00:55:00,880 --> 00:55:03,120
Speaker 2: in poops in a we call it a shitter, you know,

969
00:55:03,200 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 2: and in order to it's safely, it's a certain distance

970
00:55:05,200 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 2: away from the kitchen. You have to cover everything, you

971
00:55:07,000 --> 00:55:08,879
Speaker 2: have to dig a certain depth. You know. It's all

972
00:55:08,880 --> 00:55:12,400
Speaker 2: this work that people do. And people used to just

973
00:55:12,440 --> 00:55:16,239
Speaker 2: put some hand sanitizer there. Yeah, but thanks to the

974
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:19,359
Speaker 2: work of people explaining how transmission.

975
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:20,320
Speaker 3: Works, that doesn't help.

976
00:55:20,640 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, So instead you have to build this thing out

977
00:55:22,680 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 2: of five gallon buckets and a foot pump where you

978
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 2: can like pump soapy water. And you know, people have

979
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:29,799
Speaker 2: like solved this problem. And it's one of these things

980
00:55:29,800 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 2: where it's like, this is a reasonably normal part of

981
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:33,520
Speaker 2: my life. It is not a normal part of most

982
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:35,839
Speaker 2: people I know's lives. An outhouse is not a part

983
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:38,239
Speaker 2: of like most of my friend's lives. But for many

984
00:55:38,320 --> 00:55:41,800
Speaker 2: years lived somewhere where an outhouse was the only toilet available,

985
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, anyway, Annie, how you feel that about

986
00:55:47,920 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 2: salk and seven and polio in the future?

987
00:55:52,120 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 3: You know, the future? Uh? You know, Honestly, I feel

988
00:55:57,880 --> 00:55:59,440
Speaker 3: like I say this every time I come on a

989
00:55:59,480 --> 00:56:02,040
Speaker 3: show like this. I have a million thoughts and I

990
00:56:02,120 --> 00:56:04,479
Speaker 3: want to talk about all of them. Like you said,

991
00:56:04,520 --> 00:56:07,800
Speaker 3: there's a lot of paths we could have gone down,

992
00:56:08,640 --> 00:56:12,880
Speaker 3: but currently it's just it was interesting to hear how

993
00:56:13,120 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 3: displayed out in the past, and to juxtapose it with

994
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:24,920
Speaker 3: how it's going yeah right now in some frightening ways.

995
00:56:25,440 --> 00:56:27,600
Speaker 3: But yeah, just the kind of it sounds like there's

996
00:56:27,600 --> 00:56:32,319
Speaker 3: always been this po politicization of vaccines and who gets

997
00:56:32,320 --> 00:56:35,040
Speaker 3: the credit for them? Yeah, and then are they actually

998
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:35,839
Speaker 3: any good for you?

999
00:56:36,160 --> 00:56:41,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, all that stuff, and the answer is yes, vaccines

1000
00:56:41,120 --> 00:56:43,719
Speaker 2: are great, one of the best technologies I've ever developed.

1001
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 2: And also all the stuff that they're trying to strip

1002
00:56:46,680 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 2: away from social services that are trying to take out

1003
00:56:50,719 --> 00:56:52,520
Speaker 2: all the good parts of the government and leave all

1004
00:56:52,560 --> 00:56:54,520
Speaker 2: the bad parts of the government. And what we need

1005
00:56:54,560 --> 00:56:57,440
Speaker 2: to do is the opposite. Imagine that you should get

1006
00:56:57,480 --> 00:56:59,680
Speaker 2: rid of the bad things and keep the good things.

1007
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:01,800
Speaker 2: Just got it all backwards, that's the problem.

1008
00:57:03,000 --> 00:57:05,239
Speaker 1: And you know, wash your hands, cup your mouth when

1009
00:57:05,280 --> 00:57:07,560
Speaker 1: your cough, and maybe just like thinking, am.

1010
00:57:07,400 --> 00:57:09,640
Speaker 3: I too close to that person? Maybe I am?

1011
00:57:09,880 --> 00:57:11,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, And don't talk to cops.

1012
00:57:12,280 --> 00:57:15,360
Speaker 3: Don't fucking talk to cops anyway.

1013
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 2: Well, anywhere can people follow you?

1014
00:57:19,640 --> 00:57:22,959
Speaker 3: People can find me on podcasts stuff when never told

1015
00:57:23,000 --> 00:57:27,520
Speaker 3: you and the podcast Savor wherever you get your podcasts.

1016
00:57:26,960 --> 00:57:30,560
Speaker 2: And that is Savor without a you. Yeah, not that

1017
00:57:30,920 --> 00:57:33,040
Speaker 2: people would assume there's a U and savor unless they're

1018
00:57:33,080 --> 00:57:38,800
Speaker 2: from Turf Island. But anyway, Hi everyone and bye.

1019
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:42,840
Speaker 1: Cool People Who Did Cool Stuff is a production of

1020
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:46,040
Speaker 1: cool Zone Media. For more podcasts and cool Zone Media,

1021
00:57:46,160 --> 00:57:49,400
Speaker 1: visit our website Coolzonemedia dot com, or check us out

1022
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 1: on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

1023
00:57:52,920 --> 00:57:54,080
Speaker 1: your podcasts.