WEBVTT - "Every film about war ends up being pro-war" with Michael Shannon | The Movie Racket 0:00:21.244 --> 0:00:24.604 Film Spotting is presented by Regal Unlimited, the all you 0:00:24.645 --> 0:00:27.565 can watch movie subscription pass that pays for itself in 0:00:27.685 --> 0:00:31.365 just two visits. See any standard two D movie anytime 0:00:31.725 --> 0:00:34.725 with no blackout dates or restrictions. Sign up now on 0:00:34.765 --> 0:00:36.964 the Regal app or at the link in our description 0:00:37.165 --> 0:00:41.004 and use code film spot twenty six to receive fifteen 0:00:41.045 --> 0:00:43.965 percent off. 0:00:46.925 --> 0:00:49.725 Hey, folks, Michael Phillips here, thanks for checking out this 0:00:49.805 --> 0:00:53.365 new enterprise called the Movie Racket. It's the latest addition 0:00:53.485 --> 0:00:57.844 to the expanding podcast lineup under the Film Spotting production banner. 0:00:58.444 --> 0:01:01.045 And you know, some of you probably know that I've 0:01:01.485 --> 0:01:05.084 joined Adam and Josh Over on Film Spotting here and 0:01:05.125 --> 0:01:08.725 there now and then for a few years now. And 0:01:08.765 --> 0:01:11.125 we've also talked about me doing something on my own 0:01:11.405 --> 0:01:13.884 for a little while, just so they could take a 0:01:13.885 --> 0:01:18.604 break from all my undermining of their opinions. So here 0:01:18.645 --> 0:01:21.244 it is Season one of the Movie Racket. And the 0:01:21.285 --> 0:01:25.084 idea is this. For more than a century, the movie 0:01:25.125 --> 0:01:29.605 industry has spun off a long list of unwritten rules 0:01:29.725 --> 0:01:34.125 and guidelines for what makes a movie work, the secrets 0:01:34.164 --> 0:01:37.244 of success, the theories to live by, or at least 0:01:37.645 --> 0:01:42.325 film by. You could start with screenwriter William Goldman's epic 0:01:42.565 --> 0:01:48.764 three word reminder that in Hollywood nobody knows anything comes 0:01:48.765 --> 0:01:52.325 from his book Adventures in the Screen Trade. Quite famous, 0:01:53.165 --> 0:01:54.925 and even people who don't know what the hell they're 0:01:54.965 --> 0:01:59.365 doing currently in Hollywood, even if they're twenty two, they 0:01:59.565 --> 0:02:02.685 have memorized those three words and pull them out at 0:02:02.725 --> 0:02:04.845 meetings just because they think they're the first one to 0:02:04.925 --> 0:02:08.325 quote William Goldman. Most of the great directors, a lot 0:02:08.325 --> 0:02:11.765 of ordinary ones I think too, had their own Quippi 0:02:11.925 --> 0:02:14.885 theories over the years about their line of work. A 0:02:14.925 --> 0:02:18.765 good movie is three good scenes and no bad ones. 0:02:19.205 --> 0:02:23.005 Howard Hawkes said that what the public wants is a 0:02:23.045 --> 0:02:27.525 gun and a girl. That one's usually quoted the other 0:02:27.565 --> 0:02:30.725 way around, a girl and a gun. Either way, that's 0:02:30.725 --> 0:02:33.405 what makes a movie. That's the idea of sex and violence. 0:02:33.484 --> 0:02:36.965 No argument that we're done talking about it, although in 0:02:37.005 --> 0:02:40.325 America we sexualize everything except sex. 0:02:40.445 --> 0:02:41.885 But that's another story. 0:02:41.924 --> 0:02:42.485 Who said that? 0:02:42.565 --> 0:02:43.405 Who said what the. 0:02:43.325 --> 0:02:45.405 Public wants is a gun and a girl? Was not 0:02:45.565 --> 0:02:49.644 Howard Hawks wasn't Jean le Goadar. The answer may surprise you, 0:02:50.285 --> 0:02:52.725 and we're going to get to that one in upcoming 0:02:52.764 --> 0:02:55.804 episode of the movie Racket. So the more we looked 0:02:55.845 --> 0:03:00.645 at these truisms, these ideological beliefs about cinema, the sneakier 0:03:00.965 --> 0:03:04.885 they got, the ones that sounded and maybe still sound 0:03:05.005 --> 0:03:08.644 like total bs actually might be hiding something kind of 0:03:08.725 --> 0:03:14.765 useful and instructive for young filmmakers, young audiences, young podcasts listeners, 0:03:14.885 --> 0:03:16.325 old podcast listeners. 0:03:17.125 --> 0:03:17.885 The so called. 0:03:17.805 --> 0:03:22.085 Rules blueprints for success that sound reliable, solid. Maybe time 0:03:22.125 --> 0:03:25.044 has done its thing and rendered him antiques, and maybe 0:03:25.044 --> 0:03:26.325 they never were all that. 0:03:27.005 --> 0:03:30.285 To begin with, the writ is king here at Capitol Pictures. 0:03:30.365 --> 0:03:32.685 We're only interested in one thing. Can you tell a 0:03:32.685 --> 0:03:34.645 story bot? Can you make us laugh? Can you make 0:03:34.725 --> 0:03:36.684 us cry? Can you make us want to break out 0:03:36.845 --> 0:03:39.005 enjoy a song? Is that more than one thing? 0:03:39.125 --> 0:03:42.765 Okay mondays here on the Movie Racket, our special guest 0:03:42.805 --> 0:03:44.965 co star and I are going to examine a nugget 0:03:45.005 --> 0:03:47.565 of film theory, a truism that may or may not 0:03:47.645 --> 0:03:52.605 be true, a few words of Hollywood wisdom or filmmaking warning, 0:03:53.325 --> 0:03:55.525 and you might just come away with something new to 0:03:55.565 --> 0:03:59.005 think about. Sir Isaac Newton had his Laws of Motion. 0:03:59.845 --> 0:04:02.165 The twenty twenty sixth season of the Movie Racket gives 0:04:02.205 --> 0:04:06.045 you the Laws of Motion Pictures and this week's guest. 0:04:06.245 --> 0:04:09.965 Our first guest is actor director ari Em Cover, band 0:04:09.965 --> 0:04:14.205 Touring Phenomenon, and two time Academy Award nominee Michael Shannon. 0:04:14.485 --> 0:04:18.405 Since he's a two time Academy Award nominee for Revolutionary 0:04:18.445 --> 0:04:21.685 Road and for Nocturnal Animals, I gave Guy a couple 0:04:21.685 --> 0:04:24.885 of options to pick for our inaugural movie Law, and 0:04:24.965 --> 0:04:27.805 Michael chose the one you're about to hear. It comes 0:04:27.805 --> 0:04:31.525 from Francois Trufau and this interview he did with Gene 0:04:31.525 --> 0:04:35.164 Siskel of the Chicago Tribune that was three film critics 0:04:35.165 --> 0:04:38.125 before me back in nineteen seventy three. This is when 0:04:38.125 --> 0:04:40.605 Trufaux was promoting the US release of Day for Night. 0:04:41.085 --> 0:04:43.645 So Cisco and Trufau got on the topic of what 0:04:43.685 --> 0:04:48.525 Trufau believed to be the central paradox with war films, 0:04:48.645 --> 0:04:53.365 especially war movies partly or largely driven by combat life 0:04:53.365 --> 0:04:57.325 and death survival, and Trufau said simply, this, every film 0:04:57.365 --> 0:05:01.045 about war ends up being pro war. In other words, 0:05:01.045 --> 0:05:04.125 there's no such thing as an anti war film. And 0:05:04.125 --> 0:05:07.005 ciscl was like, wait a minute, Francois, what about Kubrick's 0:05:07.045 --> 0:05:11.445 Paths a Glory, and Trufau said no, and he wouldn't budge, 0:05:11.805 --> 0:05:15.284 and Siskel thought he was just being reductive or dismissive. 0:05:15.365 --> 0:05:18.885 And then, as Ciscle wrote later on, he couldn't shake 0:05:19.005 --> 0:05:23.044 Truffau's assertion that had so shaken his own ideas about 0:05:23.245 --> 0:05:27.044 anti war films and war on screen in general. So 0:05:27.245 --> 0:05:30.685 was true, Faull Wright does putting war and combat on 0:05:30.765 --> 0:05:35.364 screen somehow invariably juice the narrative you're telling in the 0:05:35.404 --> 0:05:38.565 direction of excitement and a kind of bloodthirsty instinct, even 0:05:38.605 --> 0:05:42.445 in a well behaved audience or the most pacifist temperament. 0:05:43.284 --> 0:05:46.365 Shannon goes at that question as a working actor and 0:05:46.525 --> 0:05:49.965 as a longtime movie lover, and he also reveals which 0:05:49.964 --> 0:05:52.645 war movie for him was the first one that really 0:05:52.685 --> 0:05:55.404 meant something to him as a young moviegoer. And he 0:05:55.445 --> 0:05:58.805 talks about working on Pearl Harbor, the movie, not the 0:05:58.844 --> 0:06:03.645 actual event, with director Michael Bay, who will never be 0:06:03.885 --> 0:06:07.885 confused with an anti war filmmaking temperament. 0:06:12.885 --> 0:06:17.125 We're going to talk today about something that Francois Truffau 0:06:17.284 --> 0:06:20.964 said in an interview with Jeene Ciscoll and The Chicago 0:06:21.205 --> 0:06:25.845 Tribune back in nineteen seventy three, and the sentence is 0:06:26.005 --> 0:06:30.445 very simple. Trufo said, every film about war ends up 0:06:30.605 --> 0:06:32.325 being pro war. 0:06:32.885 --> 0:06:37.605 I know that I've always been fascinated by war for 0:06:37.645 --> 0:06:40.365 a variety of reasons. I find it one of the 0:06:40.365 --> 0:06:44.445 most confusing things that human beings do is that we 0:06:44.565 --> 0:06:48.685 wage war upon one another. I've never heard a reason 0:06:49.445 --> 0:06:53.404 for it that's made any sense to me. And the 0:06:53.445 --> 0:06:57.525 fundamental question I think for me with war is war necessary? 0:06:58.325 --> 0:07:02.525 Because it seems like it must be necessary because it 0:07:02.605 --> 0:07:07.325 happens all the time. It's been happening for millennia, that 0:07:07.445 --> 0:07:12.045 people have to form groups and be in opposition to 0:07:12.085 --> 0:07:17.405 one another. And I guess one of the things that 0:07:17.485 --> 0:07:21.925 struck me about what Trufo said is that I think, fundamentally, 0:07:22.205 --> 0:07:27.325 like underneath it all, I think everybody understands that killing 0:07:27.845 --> 0:07:30.805 another human being is not something you should do for 0:07:30.885 --> 0:07:34.445 any reason. It's kind of like in the film I directed, 0:07:34.525 --> 0:07:37.005 Eric LaRue. At the end of the film, Eric Daru, 0:07:37.125 --> 0:07:40.725 who is in prison for killing people, says to his mother, 0:07:41.365 --> 0:07:45.325 no human being should kill another human being, period. And 0:07:45.365 --> 0:07:48.285 this is a person who has actually killed people, so 0:07:48.325 --> 0:07:53.245 he should know. And yet we constantly are killing people 0:07:53.845 --> 0:07:58.605 and trying to justify it with history or religion. But 0:07:59.245 --> 0:08:04.525 all of that say, I think filmmaking can't help but 0:08:04.765 --> 0:08:10.565 make whatever it's portraying alluring, whether it's war or murder. 0:08:11.205 --> 0:08:14.845 You don't make a film to bore the heck out 0:08:14.845 --> 0:08:18.045 of people. You don't say, Okay, let's get all these 0:08:18.125 --> 0:08:21.325 cameras and this big crew and go out and make 0:08:21.365 --> 0:08:25.685 the most boring, unappealing nonsense we can possibly make so 0:08:25.725 --> 0:08:28.965 that nobody will have any interest in watching it. So 0:08:29.365 --> 0:08:32.325 if you're making a film about something, you're going to 0:08:32.405 --> 0:08:36.405 make it look interesting, intriguing. You want people to be 0:08:36.485 --> 0:08:42.205 curious about it, And so that's inherent in the process, 0:08:42.365 --> 0:08:44.685 whether you're making a picture about war or anything else. 0:08:45.325 --> 0:08:48.485 But I also think it's because, like I said, people know, 0:08:49.605 --> 0:08:53.205 people know it's wrong. Like I don't care. I've heard 0:08:53.205 --> 0:08:55.885 all this stuff. You know, you take the Israel Palestine 0:08:55.925 --> 0:08:59.444 situation and you try and insert yourself into that, and 0:08:59.925 --> 0:09:02.645 people will say, well, it's too complicated for you to understand. 0:09:03.125 --> 0:09:05.804 You don't understand the history of this place, this land, 0:09:05.885 --> 0:09:09.005 you don't understand how many centuries this has been going on, 0:09:09.085 --> 0:09:11.325 and a la da da da da I'm like, I 0:09:11.445 --> 0:09:13.844 may not I may not understand it as well as 0:09:13.845 --> 0:09:16.084 you do. I may not be as as informed as 0:09:16.125 --> 0:09:19.285 you are about the history of it. But the one 0:09:19.325 --> 0:09:23.045 thing that I and every other sentient human being in 0:09:23.085 --> 0:09:26.725 the universe knows is that you shouldn't kill somebody like 0:09:26.765 --> 0:09:31.845 you just shouldn't kill somebody, period. So it's a huge 0:09:31.885 --> 0:09:34.444 obstacle to overcome if you're going to go out and 0:09:34.525 --> 0:09:37.285 kill a bunch of people. Is that that fundamental understanding 0:09:37.285 --> 0:09:39.804 that we all have. And part of that, I think 0:09:40.005 --> 0:09:43.405 is cinema of war. It makes war look like it 0:09:43.485 --> 0:09:46.525 is a noble thing to go out and kill people 0:09:46.804 --> 0:09:51.885 like and it's justified or you know, and god, this 0:09:51.925 --> 0:09:54.045 answer is like two hours long, but it's all right there. 0:09:54.085 --> 0:09:57.605 The show is going to be six okay. Cool, And 0:09:57.645 --> 0:10:01.605 inevitably a war film has a hero, like you can't help. 0:10:02.365 --> 0:10:05.804 If there's a war, there's a hero, And if you're 0:10:05.804 --> 0:10:08.685 making a film about war, you're not going to leave 0:10:08.725 --> 0:10:11.805 the hero out of the film, because that would be silly. 0:10:12.085 --> 0:10:14.325 Because again it goes back to the earlier point I 0:10:14.405 --> 0:10:17.804 was making about wanting to make a film that's appealing 0:10:17.925 --> 0:10:22.205 and intriguing to other people to watch. So one way 0:10:22.245 --> 0:10:24.285 you do that is you put a hero in the movie. 0:10:24.845 --> 0:10:27.685 So every movie about war, I think he's going to 0:10:27.684 --> 0:10:28.084 have a hero. 0:10:28.725 --> 0:10:30.605 I guess I would push back though, with you on 0:10:30.605 --> 0:10:33.445 one thing, Michael, so far of what you said, I 0:10:33.485 --> 0:10:39.845 don't know if these are commercial dictates of the medium 0:10:40.005 --> 0:10:47.324 of movies that must make films about war. Focus on 0:10:47.485 --> 0:10:50.765 what you say, you know, the hero or just see 0:10:50.925 --> 0:10:55.205 the kind of visceral, gripping thrill of some of the action, 0:10:55.525 --> 0:10:58.565 the life and death moment to moment, kind of rhythmic 0:10:58.645 --> 0:11:02.125 beats of combat and who's living and who's dying. You 0:11:02.205 --> 0:11:04.085 can't help a big grip by that. And I think 0:11:04.125 --> 0:11:07.765 we all were at a certain age, especially boys, you know. 0:11:07.925 --> 0:11:10.085 I mean it took me a while to realize. At 0:11:10.125 --> 0:11:12.525 age eight, when I saw The Green Berets on TV, 0:11:13.285 --> 0:11:15.925 I thought it was I don't know, I thought it 0:11:15.965 --> 0:11:28.885 was all right, pretty good, you know, And then I 0:11:28.925 --> 0:11:32.245 saw it as an adolescent, and then by then the 0:11:32.285 --> 0:11:35.604 aggravating critic NERD was born, and I thought, what in 0:11:35.765 --> 0:11:37.725 hell did I fall for when I was just a 0:11:37.845 --> 0:11:38.725 kid at a. 0:11:38.885 --> 0:11:43.405 J that's as two nine or Savoy over buffed the Brown? 0:11:43.564 --> 0:11:45.885 Where do you want it put? It on a camp. 0:11:46.365 --> 0:11:49.765 Other people have it way, don't over you only take. 0:11:49.684 --> 0:11:53.005 Him in it, you know. 0:11:53.125 --> 0:11:57.084 In other words, a war movie that only has propaganda 0:11:57.765 --> 0:12:03.045 and villainizing the obvious adversary. It's mine, you know what 0:12:03.045 --> 0:12:04.845 I mean? I mean that was mine. My kind of 0:12:04.965 --> 0:12:06.725 like we're awaking. But I you know, when you're young, 0:12:06.925 --> 0:12:09.485 you don't really think through what's going on on a 0:12:09.605 --> 0:12:12.765 movie because it is literally life and death all the time, 0:12:12.804 --> 0:12:17.205 which is as a moviegoer, is kind of almost beyond aesthetics. 0:12:17.205 --> 0:12:19.285 But I don't know, was there a war movie for 0:12:19.325 --> 0:12:22.565 you when you were young. It's sort of just like, yeah, wow, 0:12:22.684 --> 0:12:24.525 I really grabbed me. This one grabbed me. 0:12:24.925 --> 0:12:29.845 Yeah. Star Wars. Fear will keep the local systems in line. 0:12:30.684 --> 0:12:33.485 Fear of this battle station and what of the rebellion. 0:12:34.005 --> 0:12:36.605 If the rebels have obtained a complete technical read out 0:12:36.645 --> 0:12:39.365 of this station, it is possible, however unlikely, that they 0:12:39.445 --> 0:12:43.005 might find a weakness and exploit it. The plans you 0:12:43.085 --> 0:12:46.365 refer to will soon be back in our hands. Any 0:12:46.405 --> 0:12:48.805 attack made by the rebels against this station would be 0:12:48.804 --> 0:12:52.165 a useless gesture. No matter what technical data they've obtained. 0:12:52.645 --> 0:12:55.725 This station is now the ultimate power in the universe. 0:12:56.925 --> 0:12:58.205 I suggest we use. 0:12:58.085 --> 0:13:04.725 It war film. Interesting, nobody calls it that, and it's 0:13:04.765 --> 0:13:05.485 in the title. 0:13:05.645 --> 0:13:08.765 Yeah, it's in the title. But you know, I don't 0:13:08.765 --> 0:13:11.285 want to like too my own horn or anything, but 0:13:11.525 --> 0:13:14.005 I've had I don't know if i'd say the pleasure, 0:13:14.165 --> 0:13:17.685 but the opportunity to participate in a lot of movies 0:13:17.765 --> 0:13:21.965 about war and the military and a lot of movies 0:13:22.125 --> 0:13:26.165 that have violence in them. And I don't dispute what 0:13:26.205 --> 0:13:30.245 you're saying. I'm just thinking about what the proposal that 0:13:30.325 --> 0:13:33.725 Truffo is making with his statement that a film about 0:13:33.725 --> 0:13:36.845 war has to be pro war. And I'm not even 0:13:37.045 --> 0:13:39.565 necessarily agreeing or disagreeing with what he's saying, but I 0:13:39.605 --> 0:13:42.605 do think again, I just go back to and this 0:13:42.645 --> 0:13:47.604 is based on my experiences, like I said, having participated 0:13:47.885 --> 0:13:50.925 in so many projects having to do with war, is 0:13:50.965 --> 0:13:55.324 that war is inexplicable and ridiculous, and we do it 0:13:55.925 --> 0:13:59.525 and we have to spend a lot mental energy like 0:13:59.725 --> 0:14:04.325 justifying why we do it, because it's it really shouldn't happen. 0:14:05.045 --> 0:14:08.804 There's no justification for it. In my mind, it makes 0:14:08.804 --> 0:14:12.804 no sense, you know. But my favorite writer is Ian Esco, 0:14:13.045 --> 0:14:17.005 Eugenie and Esco and he used to say, I actually 0:14:17.045 --> 0:14:18.645 did a play and you might have seen it because 0:14:18.645 --> 0:14:20.005 we did it at Red Orchid. We did it at 0:14:20.045 --> 0:14:24.285 Red Orchid twice. Actually we did it in our early days, 0:14:24.325 --> 0:14:27.685 and then we remounted it. It's called Victims of Duty 0:14:27.805 --> 0:14:31.125 by Eugenie and Esco. And in the play there's a 0:14:31.205 --> 0:14:33.965 character who has a line says, every story is a 0:14:34.005 --> 0:14:39.005 detective story. I believe that. I believe that's true. Every 0:14:39.045 --> 0:14:42.565 story is a detective story. You're always trying to solve 0:14:42.565 --> 0:14:46.445 a mystery, and so yeah, war movies are trying to 0:14:46.485 --> 0:14:50.045 solve the mystery of why we go to war. I 0:14:50.045 --> 0:14:53.645 guess it's such a waste war. It's not just a 0:14:53.685 --> 0:14:58.805 waste of human life, it's a waste of money, resources, time, 0:14:59.765 --> 0:15:02.885 and it never seems to lead to anything. I mean, 0:15:03.165 --> 0:15:05.645 I guess every movie about war winds up being pro 0:15:05.685 --> 0:15:09.205 war because in a war, there are at least two sides, 0:15:09.405 --> 0:15:12.685 and you're going to align yourself with one of the 0:15:12.725 --> 0:15:16.205 two sides as a person. If you're watching Group A 0:15:16.365 --> 0:15:18.885 and Group B at war and you're watching a movie 0:15:18.885 --> 0:15:21.925 about it, eventually you're gonna be like, well, I want 0:15:21.965 --> 0:15:24.565 group B to win, or I want Group A to win. 0:15:24.645 --> 0:15:27.005 I want somebody to win. You don't want both sides 0:15:27.045 --> 0:15:29.685 to lose, right, you don't want everybody to just die 0:15:29.765 --> 0:15:33.165 and that's the end, like somebody wins. So that's what 0:15:33.525 --> 0:15:37.325 I guess Troupfo probably was maybe was thinking, is that 0:15:37.485 --> 0:15:39.445 if you're watching a movie about war, you wind up 0:15:39.525 --> 0:15:41.565 rooting for somebody. But I don't know how you can 0:15:41.565 --> 0:15:44.925 make a movie about this current conflict and have a 0:15:45.045 --> 0:15:48.165 side that you're rooting for. I mean, look, one of 0:15:48.205 --> 0:15:51.685 my closest dearest friends is a filmmaker I've worked with 0:15:51.725 --> 0:15:54.725 a couple of times, Ram and Barani, and we just 0:15:54.765 --> 0:15:57.245 had lunch the other week, and he's his family's from 0:15:57.245 --> 0:16:00.325 Iran and he spent a few years there and his 0:16:00.405 --> 0:16:03.485 wife is Iranian and he can't even talk about it. 0:16:03.525 --> 0:16:08.285 He's so upset he can't even talk about it. And yeah, 0:16:08.365 --> 0:16:10.445 like you said, I you know, I don't think this 0:16:10.525 --> 0:16:14.245 is a podcast in which people will discover the secret 0:16:14.285 --> 0:16:18.125 to world peace or something, but I do think it's 0:16:18.165 --> 0:16:21.725 it's very strange how they changed the name of the 0:16:21.725 --> 0:16:24.805 Department of Defense back to the Department of War. That 0:16:24.805 --> 0:16:31.845 didn't seem necessary or beneficial to anyone. Really, I get 0:16:31.845 --> 0:16:33.765 the feeling that there's a lot of stuff that's happening 0:16:33.845 --> 0:16:38.085 right now. That is basically what it boils down to 0:16:38.325 --> 0:16:42.205 is there are super rich people that kind of want 0:16:42.485 --> 0:16:45.005 things to happen the way they want them to happen. 0:16:45.085 --> 0:16:48.445 And if that sounds like a conspiracy theory, so be it. 0:16:48.725 --> 0:16:52.005 But it is all connected. It's connected in scary, freaky 0:16:52.045 --> 0:16:56.885 ways now because what happened is destroying show business in 0:16:56.925 --> 0:17:00.925 this industry that I somehow managed to find my way into. 0:17:01.965 --> 0:17:06.645 Is that big tech billionaires said, hey, let's take over Hollywood. 0:17:07.245 --> 0:17:11.605 And that is like destroying the whole shebang. But there's 0:17:11.645 --> 0:17:17.445 always been money in Hollywood that comes from questionable places, 0:17:17.965 --> 0:17:21.244 but it's really beyond the pale right now. And so 0:17:22.325 --> 0:17:26.445 war movies are expensive buy and large. It's pretty difficult 0:17:26.485 --> 0:17:29.965 to make a cheap war movie, yeah, and so that 0:17:30.005 --> 0:17:34.925 money's got to come from somewhere, and I mean particularly nowadays. 0:17:34.965 --> 0:17:37.165 Maybe back in the twenties you could have made a 0:17:37.365 --> 0:17:39.245 cheap war movie I don't know, you know, out in 0:17:39.285 --> 0:17:42.405 the desert or something. But nowadays they got to have 0:17:42.525 --> 0:17:46.365 all the exciting effects and gizmos and all that, and 0:17:46.445 --> 0:17:49.365 you know, big expensive movie stars and all that. So 0:17:49.845 --> 0:17:51.845 they need a lot of money. So the people that 0:17:51.965 --> 0:17:54.645 give the money to make the Warfroone were like, we 0:17:54.725 --> 0:17:57.325 will give you this mountain of money to make this movie. 0:17:57.845 --> 0:18:01.885 As long as the movie says this and it makes 0:18:01.965 --> 0:18:04.885 these people look like this and it makes the audience 0:18:04.925 --> 0:18:08.125 feel this way, then we'll give you the money. If 0:18:08.165 --> 0:18:09.525 you don't want to do if you don't want to 0:18:09.565 --> 0:18:12.565 agree to all that ahead of time, then you can 0:18:12.605 --> 0:18:14.845 go somewhere else and see who will give you amount 0:18:14.925 --> 0:18:17.485 of money, because it won't be us. And that's kind 0:18:17.485 --> 0:18:40.765 of how it goes now. 0:18:40.965 --> 0:18:46.005 Generation ago early film for you was Michael Bay's Pearl Harbor, Yes, 0:18:46.165 --> 0:18:48.565 which would fit the description just in terms of the 0:18:48.605 --> 0:18:49.165 size of it. 0:18:49.525 --> 0:18:52.085 Yeah, in honor of our trip to Japan, I got 0:18:52.245 --> 0:18:56.925 some uh hectree cigar, Yeah, gigar there you go, get 0:18:56.925 --> 0:19:00.125 in your inside pocket pet to your art. You know, Jack, 0:19:00.165 --> 0:19:02.365 we may lose this battle, the would and win this war. 0:19:04.045 --> 0:19:11.165 You know how I know? No, because they're rare. 0:19:12.165 --> 0:19:14.565 What's your memory of the whole thing? It's uh, it's 0:19:14.565 --> 0:19:16.205 not the best written war film ever. 0:19:16.965 --> 0:19:20.485 Oh it's funny you say that, because yeah, it was 0:19:20.605 --> 0:19:23.965 not as grip that you get embossed in gold or 0:19:24.005 --> 0:19:28.605 something and frame for posterity. But there's two things I 0:19:28.605 --> 0:19:30.645 would say about that is one day I was on 0:19:30.685 --> 0:19:33.645 the set, because you know, we spent a considerable amount 0:19:33.725 --> 0:19:38.285 of time in Pro Harbor itself, and the whole Pro 0:19:38.365 --> 0:19:43.085 Harbor sequence we shot filmed there, and we took it over. 0:19:43.805 --> 0:19:47.765 We ran around like crazy people for a while a 0:19:47.845 --> 0:19:52.685 month or so. I remember getting these incredible headaches from 0:19:52.725 --> 0:19:58.245 just running around inhaling smoke and listening explosions all day long. 0:19:58.965 --> 0:20:01.845 And you played I just played some random you know. 0:20:02.245 --> 0:20:05.165 I was a co pilot. Goose was my name. I 0:20:05.245 --> 0:20:09.405 was a surfer. But the main heroes were being Affle 0:20:09.445 --> 0:20:12.445 like and Josh. There were some of us to add 0:20:12.765 --> 0:20:17.405 a little bit of color, character, funniness or comedy. So 0:20:17.485 --> 0:20:20.925 that was me and a couple other fellas, you and Bremner, 0:20:21.565 --> 0:20:24.205 who's remained a dear friend of mine. He played a 0:20:24.245 --> 0:20:27.485 character named Red because he had red hair. You know, 0:20:27.765 --> 0:20:31.165 these are the massive concepts we're dealing with. But it 0:20:31.245 --> 0:20:35.885 was a very very odd thing to run around where 0:20:35.925 --> 0:20:45.725 this actually happened and pretended pretend to recreate it because 0:20:45.925 --> 0:20:49.365 it was a catastrophe. It was a complete disaster. It 0:20:49.445 --> 0:20:54.845 was one of the saddest events in human history. And 0:20:54.965 --> 0:20:58.685 yet we're here and it's not like we're trying to 0:20:59.205 --> 0:21:01.645 make it seem like something else, like it was a 0:21:01.645 --> 0:21:05.205 big party or something. I mean, we are running for 0:21:05.325 --> 0:21:08.365 our lives. You know, people are dying and things are 0:21:08.405 --> 0:21:11.845 on fire, and like I said, there's explosions and smoke 0:21:11.925 --> 0:21:18.285 and all this. But it is being recreated for the 0:21:18.445 --> 0:21:21.845 entertainment of other people. Like I said, it's not being 0:21:21.885 --> 0:21:25.165 recreated to be like a drag or like something you 0:21:25.285 --> 0:21:29.725 don't want to watch. It is being recreated specifically and 0:21:29.805 --> 0:21:32.605 thought about as like I said, as Michael like you 0:21:32.645 --> 0:21:36.885 were saying, Michael Bay, He's not thinking about the moral dilemma. 0:21:37.205 --> 0:21:41.485 He's thinking about how do I make this as irresistible 0:21:42.005 --> 0:21:45.605 as possible. That is his That's what he wakes up 0:21:45.645 --> 0:21:48.525 thinking about when he's making that move. Whether he's successful 0:21:48.645 --> 0:21:50.685 or not. You can debate that there's some people that 0:21:50.725 --> 0:21:52.805 think the movie's crapped or some people that love it. 0:21:53.085 --> 0:21:55.845 I've heard every kind of opinion you could possibly hear 0:21:55.885 --> 0:21:59.365 about Pearl Harbor. You can't surprise me. But that is 0:21:59.445 --> 0:22:02.165 what he was doing when he went to work every day. 0:22:02.245 --> 0:22:05.165 He was not saying, oh, I should really think about 0:22:05.165 --> 0:22:10.205 this big moral issue about war. There's not no nothing, 0:22:11.005 --> 0:22:14.165 But you know, you'd run around and you'd have these 0:22:15.245 --> 0:22:18.805 fake rounds being fired out of like gatling guns and 0:22:18.845 --> 0:22:23.205 all this and straping that that was done with special effects, 0:22:23.245 --> 0:22:26.445 you know, little bags that would explode with dust in 0:22:26.525 --> 0:22:28.725 it and make it look like bullets, right, But you'd 0:22:28.805 --> 0:22:32.445 run past the building and you would see actual bullet 0:22:32.485 --> 0:22:37.245 holes from back in the day when it was actually happening, 0:22:37.405 --> 0:22:42.525 Like I saw actual bullet holes from the actual December seventh, 0:22:42.565 --> 0:22:47.765 nineteen forty one assault on pro harm And then for 0:22:47.845 --> 0:22:51.205 a bonus, I got to go up in a plane 0:22:51.245 --> 0:22:54.805 because they actually had some pilots there that had flown 0:22:54.845 --> 0:22:57.565 around in these planes, like the P forty two's I 0:22:57.605 --> 0:22:59.485 think it's been a while. I think it's P forty 0:22:59.485 --> 0:23:01.765 two it is called. And we went I went up 0:23:01.805 --> 0:23:04.125 in a plane and you in went up in a plane. 0:23:04.685 --> 0:23:09.325 We flew in a formation over the USS Arizona and 0:23:09.445 --> 0:23:13.245 I looked down out of this little two seater plane 0:23:14.205 --> 0:23:17.805 into the water and I saw the entirety. When you 0:23:17.845 --> 0:23:20.005 go out on that little bridge that's over the top 0:23:20.045 --> 0:23:22.285 of it, you see the oil bubbling up and you're 0:23:22.285 --> 0:23:24.205 like oh my god, they're still oil in there. But 0:23:24.245 --> 0:23:26.805 you don't get a sense of what you're standing on 0:23:26.925 --> 0:23:29.165 top of. But when you're up in the sky and 0:23:29.205 --> 0:23:31.965 you look down at it, I mean, it's one of 0:23:32.005 --> 0:23:39.685 the most awe inspiring things I've ever seen in my life, 0:23:39.725 --> 0:23:42.125 and also one of the saddest because you know that 0:23:42.125 --> 0:23:46.605 that vessel is just filled with corpses, and like I said, 0:23:46.725 --> 0:23:51.565 so unnecessary. And at the time, you know, nowadays, if 0:23:51.605 --> 0:23:53.645 somebody came to me and said, hey, we're making Pearl Harbor, 0:23:53.925 --> 0:23:56.285 and I was at the point I'm in now in 0:23:56.325 --> 0:24:01.125 my career, I would probably frankly would say, you know what, 0:24:01.365 --> 0:24:04.085 I think, I'm good. But back then I was. I 0:24:04.125 --> 0:24:06.645 had just got in LA. I was in fight or 0:24:06.685 --> 0:24:11.085 flight mode. It was like, you know, people were going 0:24:11.125 --> 0:24:14.405 to LA from Chicago and a lot of people weren't 0:24:14.405 --> 0:24:16.805 getting any bites. And you know, I was lucky. I 0:24:16.845 --> 0:24:18.845 was lucky I got in that room at all. I 0:24:18.885 --> 0:24:20.965 got in a room with Michael Bay and Jerry Bruckheimer, 0:24:21.165 --> 0:24:23.645 you know, two of the most powerful guys in Hollywood 0:24:23.685 --> 0:24:26.645 at the time. When they said yes you, I would 0:24:26.645 --> 0:24:29.485 have been a fool to say, oh, I'm no, I'm leaving. 0:24:29.885 --> 0:24:31.725 But now I don't know. I don't know if I'm 0:24:31.765 --> 0:24:33.885 going to tell that story now, I don't what. 0:24:34.365 --> 0:24:37.565 It just feels what to you well, it. 0:24:37.525 --> 0:24:40.925