1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:05,080 Speaker 1: The attack on our nation's capital on January sixth, twenty 2 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:09,400 Speaker 1: twenty one, was an unprecedented assault on the seat of 3 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:14,160 Speaker 1: American democracy. Is described in the indictment. It was fueled 4 00:00:14,200 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: by lies, lies by the defendant targeted at obstructing a 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:24,440 Speaker 1: bedrock function of the US government, the nation's process of collecting, counting, 6 00:00:24,600 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: and certifying the results of the presidential election. 7 00:00:30,200 --> 00:00:34,320 Speaker 2: Donald Trump appears again today in federal court, this time 8 00:00:34,440 --> 00:00:38,800 Speaker 2: in Washington, d C. Where he faces criminal conspiracy charges. 9 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:42,760 Speaker 2: It's the third criminal case against the former president and 10 00:00:43,000 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 2: possibly not the last. I'm west Kosova today on the 11 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:54,319 Speaker 2: Big Tag Bloomberg. Sarah Forden and Zoe Tillman tell us 12 00:00:54,440 --> 00:00:57,560 Speaker 2: what we can expect today and in the months ahead 13 00:00:57,720 --> 00:01:10,480 Speaker 2: as Trump shuttles between campaign and courtroom. Sarah, this one 14 00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:12,480 Speaker 2: feels a little bit different. There's been a lot of 15 00:01:12,520 --> 00:01:15,720 Speaker 2: conversation about how the New York case involving hush money 16 00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:20,240 Speaker 2: is very specific, the Florida case against Trump involving his 17 00:01:20,360 --> 00:01:24,080 Speaker 2: handling of classified documents very specific, and this case feels 18 00:01:24,360 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 2: more sweeping and possibly more consequential. Why is this one different? 19 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 3: So this really feels like the big indictment because it's 20 00:01:32,400 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 3: looking at all the efforts that Trump went through to 21 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:38,720 Speaker 3: try to stay in office after he lost the election. 22 00:01:39,280 --> 00:01:42,280 Speaker 3: This is taking all the events leading up to the 23 00:01:42,480 --> 00:01:47,520 Speaker 3: January sixth insurrection and unpacking how that came into play 24 00:01:47,560 --> 00:01:49,800 Speaker 3: and how that unfolded. And as we know, I mean, 25 00:01:49,800 --> 00:01:53,800 Speaker 3: the investigation has been going on for several years and 26 00:01:54,280 --> 00:01:57,720 Speaker 3: now we're looking to see how Jack Smith, the Special Council, 27 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:00,520 Speaker 3: is going to tell this story of what happened. 28 00:02:00,800 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 2: And Zoe, let's talk about some of the specifics in 29 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:08,000 Speaker 2: the case, because there's a lot of details in here 30 00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:10,440 Speaker 2: and they can be a little bit hard to sort out. 31 00:02:10,840 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, you know, what's interesting is that they've charged this 32 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,799 Speaker 4: as a conspiracy case, but they've charged it as sort 33 00:02:17,800 --> 00:02:22,200 Speaker 4: of a constellation of lots of little mini conspiracies making 34 00:02:22,280 --> 00:02:26,160 Speaker 4: up this broad conspiracy to hold on to power as 35 00:02:26,160 --> 00:02:29,720 Speaker 4: long as possible. And so it's not as if they've said, 36 00:02:29,840 --> 00:02:32,400 Speaker 4: you know, trying to pressure the vice president, that's it, 37 00:02:32,600 --> 00:02:35,720 Speaker 4: that's the offense. They're saying that, in totality, all of 38 00:02:35,760 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 4: these things made up the conspiracy. So they included immediately 39 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 4: after the election trying to go into battleground states when 40 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:47,480 Speaker 4: it was clear that Biden had won to try and 41 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:53,760 Speaker 4: pressure state officials to change vote totals, to perhaps delay 42 00:02:53,880 --> 00:02:57,919 Speaker 4: certifying what they were sending in, you know, to Congress 43 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:01,840 Speaker 4: to certify from the state results, and then you know, 44 00:03:01,880 --> 00:03:05,400 Speaker 4: trying to certify slates of fake electors to sign those 45 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:09,400 Speaker 4: certifications saying Trump won when he didn't. It was then 46 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 4: you know, going to court and presenting election fraud claims 47 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:16,200 Speaker 4: to convince judges to step in, you know, and then 48 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:18,960 Speaker 4: back in Washington as it got closer to the date 49 00:03:19,000 --> 00:03:23,720 Speaker 4: of certification, by Congress pressuring Vice President Mike Pence telling him, 50 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,040 Speaker 4: you know, you can step in here, and pen saying no, 51 00:03:26,160 --> 00:03:29,720 Speaker 4: I can't. The indictment does not charge him, we should say, 52 00:03:29,760 --> 00:03:32,640 Speaker 4: with inciting the riot at the Capitol. It does not 53 00:03:32,800 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 4: charge him with that. It blames him for it. Certainly. 54 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,400 Speaker 5: Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious 55 00:03:39,480 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 5: assault on our democracy. And after this, we're going to 56 00:03:43,760 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 5: walk down and I'll be there with you. We're going 57 00:03:46,320 --> 00:03:50,600 Speaker 5: to walk down anyone you want, but I think right 58 00:03:50,640 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 5: here we're going to walk down to the capital. You'll 59 00:03:53,640 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 5: never take back our country with weakness. You have to 60 00:03:57,640 --> 00:03:58,800 Speaker 5: show strength, and you have to. 61 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:01,840 Speaker 4: And then it says even after that happened, that Trump 62 00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,880 Speaker 4: exploited that event to try and call members of Congress 63 00:04:05,920 --> 00:04:09,160 Speaker 4: afterwards to get them to at the last minute stop 64 00:04:09,160 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 4: the certification, you know, and as we know, none of 65 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:14,960 Speaker 4: it worked. Congress certified the election president of. 66 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: The United States. 67 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 5: Are as follows. 68 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 2: Joseph ar Biden Junior of the state of Delaware has 69 00:04:21,240 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 2: received three hundred and six votes Donald J. Trump of 70 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:25,520 Speaker 2: the state of Florida. 71 00:04:25,880 --> 00:04:29,039 Speaker 4: But what the Justice Department is alleging is that there 72 00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 4: were these, you know, an overarching conspiracy made up of 73 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:36,560 Speaker 4: all sorts of different efforts that have been reported by 74 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:41,040 Speaker 4: Trump and by his allies to ultimately stop this from happening. 75 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:43,520 Speaker 3: And then also his efforts to get his own Justice 76 00:04:43,560 --> 00:04:45,920 Speaker 3: Department to play a role in that's right. So that's 77 00:04:45,920 --> 00:04:47,880 Speaker 3: a huge piece of it, you know, as we look 78 00:04:47,880 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 3: at the separation of powers and the independence, you know, 79 00:04:51,600 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 3: of law enforcement, that was a real effort to have 80 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 3: his way. 81 00:04:56,560 --> 00:04:59,880 Speaker 4: The most serious charge against him, obstructing an official proceeding, 82 00:05:00,200 --> 00:05:02,599 Speaker 4: carries up to twenty years in prison, but we would 83 00:05:02,640 --> 00:05:05,520 Speaker 4: expect him to face nowhere near that if he's convicted. 84 00:05:05,520 --> 00:05:08,400 Speaker 4: He's a first time offender, those maximums or can be 85 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,240 Speaker 4: sort of misleading in how we think about consequences. But 86 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,679 Speaker 4: you know, it is certainly accurate to say that given 87 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,160 Speaker 4: the totality of what he's charged with the twenty years, 88 00:05:17,240 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 4: the other offenses carry between five and ten year maximums, 89 00:05:20,720 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 4: he would certainly be very likely to face months or 90 00:05:23,920 --> 00:05:25,800 Speaker 4: years in prison if he's convicted. 91 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 2: Zoe, you mentioned that the Special Council Jack Smith, who's 92 00:05:29,520 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 2: bringing this case, didn't charge Trump with inciting the mob 93 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 2: that then went into the Capitol. There've been a whole 94 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:40,080 Speaker 2: lot of talk about whether Trump was responsible for that, 95 00:05:40,320 --> 00:05:43,440 Speaker 2: Why didn't Smith make that part of a charge. 96 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:45,920 Speaker 4: You know, there had been a lot of speculation ahead 97 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 4: of this that trying to charge him with something like 98 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:54,840 Speaker 4: seditious conspiracy or insurrection or incitement would be, you know, 99 00:05:54,920 --> 00:05:57,560 Speaker 4: even harder than the case that they're making, which is 100 00:05:57,720 --> 00:06:01,400 Speaker 4: by no means a simple or easy case. Unprecedented, its novel, 101 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 4: it's extraordinary. But getting into sort of the political motivations 102 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:12,200 Speaker 4: is a different question from what he was trying to achieve, 103 00:06:12,560 --> 00:06:16,039 Speaker 4: if that makes sense, you know, getting into what speech 104 00:06:16,400 --> 00:06:19,799 Speaker 4: was protected under the First Amendment as just political speech 105 00:06:20,520 --> 00:06:24,360 Speaker 4: versus what was seditious in what he was saying at 106 00:06:24,360 --> 00:06:29,000 Speaker 4: the time, those are you know, far less tested theories 107 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,839 Speaker 4: that they would have to pursue in court, and you know, 108 00:06:32,040 --> 00:06:36,240 Speaker 4: just more politically dicey, I think, and public perception wise, 109 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:38,680 Speaker 4: a harder case potentially to make. 110 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:42,080 Speaker 2: So, Sarah, it seems like Smith is focusing more on 111 00:06:42,120 --> 00:06:44,880 Speaker 2: what Trump did, what actions he took, and not just 112 00:06:44,960 --> 00:06:45,839 Speaker 2: on what he said. 113 00:06:46,279 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 3: As Zoh, he said, he's going to have to prove 114 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 3: all of this in court, so he's going to have 115 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:53,160 Speaker 3: to lay out facts. Obviously. The more that he can 116 00:06:53,279 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 3: queue to those facts and lay out that story based 117 00:06:57,080 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 3: on actions, the stronger his case is going to be. 118 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,760 Speaker 2: There's another big focus of the case, which seems to 119 00:07:02,800 --> 00:07:07,960 Speaker 2: be that Smith is trying to prove that Trump knew 120 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,640 Speaker 2: that he had lost the election, and that the case 121 00:07:10,720 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 2: really hinges on his ability to show that Trump was 122 00:07:13,920 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 2: acting in bad faith when he was saying that he won. 123 00:07:17,160 --> 00:07:19,280 Speaker 3: I mean, this case is really trying to settle once 124 00:07:19,320 --> 00:07:21,720 Speaker 3: and for all the whole question around whether or not 125 00:07:21,760 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 3: Trump knew and accepted the fact that he had lost 126 00:07:24,720 --> 00:07:29,400 Speaker 3: the election, which has persisted notwithstanding it being debunked and 127 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,160 Speaker 3: denied up and down the chain. And so that is 128 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:36,119 Speaker 3: going to be absolutely crucial for him to present this case. 129 00:07:36,640 --> 00:07:41,160 Speaker 4: You know, proving intent is always a very difficult task 130 00:07:41,320 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 4: for prosecutors. You know, I think what's incredible here and 131 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:47,840 Speaker 4: that they're working with is a massive body of evidence 132 00:07:47,960 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 4: of what Trump said, what other people said they told him, 133 00:07:52,360 --> 00:07:55,360 Speaker 4: you know, from not just the criminal investigation, but also 134 00:07:56,080 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 4: the Congressional committee that investigated this and air on national 135 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:04,520 Speaker 4: you know, primetime television, a lot of you know, key 136 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:08,920 Speaker 4: administration players and state officials who testified we told him 137 00:08:08,920 --> 00:08:11,680 Speaker 4: this was false. So the public has seen some of 138 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 4: this evidence already that they've now put in the indictment. 139 00:08:14,840 --> 00:08:16,840 Speaker 4: But you know, the standard of proof in court is 140 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,240 Speaker 4: different than in the court of public opinion, and you know, 141 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 4: the defense, we expect, will really dig into the difference 142 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 4: between what people were telling Donald Trump versus what he 143 00:08:30,200 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 4: truly believed at the time, because he certainly was being 144 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 4: told by others around him that there was fraud, and 145 00:08:37,320 --> 00:08:40,319 Speaker 4: there was support for that from you know, close advisors. 146 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 4: So you know, I think that's going to be likely, 147 00:08:43,600 --> 00:08:45,640 Speaker 4: you know, a focus for the defense in trying to 148 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:47,000 Speaker 4: pick apart the government's case. 149 00:08:47,400 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 2: Sarah Zoe says that the public had heard some of 150 00:08:50,360 --> 00:08:52,079 Speaker 2: this before, and a lot of that was from the 151 00:08:52,120 --> 00:08:55,800 Speaker 2: Congressional January sixth hearings, and it seems like Jack Smith 152 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:58,520 Speaker 2: really relied a lot on the work that that committee 153 00:08:58,520 --> 00:08:59,120 Speaker 2: had done. 154 00:08:59,559 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 5: Well. 155 00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:02,040 Speaker 3: There was certainly a lot of evidence that had been 156 00:09:02,120 --> 00:09:04,360 Speaker 3: you know, kind of tied up with the bow for him, 157 00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,679 Speaker 3: So that was a great starting point. And then of course, 158 00:09:07,760 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 3: during the months of the of the grand jury sitting, 159 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,480 Speaker 3: he brought in, you know, dozens of witnesses to drill 160 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:15,680 Speaker 3: down on each of those threads. 161 00:09:16,000 --> 00:09:18,560 Speaker 4: And certainly a major piece of that is someone who 162 00:09:18,559 --> 00:09:22,240 Speaker 4: did not testify before Congress was former Vice President Mike Pence, 163 00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 4: and someone who very much did testify before the Grand 164 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 4: jury was former Vice President Mike Pence. 165 00:09:27,920 --> 00:09:30,840 Speaker 3: In fact, one of our recent pieces focuses specifically on 166 00:09:30,920 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 3: Mike Pence and the details about him that come out 167 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 3: in the indictment, and we saw, you know, the indictment 168 00:09:36,559 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 3: actually prompted the strongest rebuke from Mike Pence that we 169 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:43,160 Speaker 3: have seen to date about those events and what Trump 170 00:09:43,160 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 3: had asked him to do. Pence actually said, no, one 171 00:09:46,360 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 3: who violates the Constitution should be president. I think it's 172 00:09:49,840 --> 00:09:53,040 Speaker 3: going to be very interesting to see what role Pence 173 00:09:53,120 --> 00:09:54,520 Speaker 3: plays going forward. 174 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,680 Speaker 2: In this proceeding Zoe. Another interesting facet of the case 175 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:03,440 Speaker 2: is that there are several unindicted co conspirators. Can you 176 00:10:03,440 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 2: tell us just first, what is an unindicted co conspirator, 177 00:10:05,880 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 2: because it keeps coming up. 178 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:10,959 Speaker 4: So an unindicted co conspirator, just at a practical level, 179 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:14,840 Speaker 4: is someone that you know, we get a clue prosecutors 180 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:18,120 Speaker 4: are interested in that they are potentially building cases against. 181 00:10:18,120 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 4: To charge a conspiracy, you have to have conspirators in 182 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,360 Speaker 4: the case, but you don't have to charge them, but 183 00:10:24,400 --> 00:10:28,400 Speaker 4: you have to allege this conspiracy existed. Someone had to 184 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:31,720 Speaker 4: be in the indictment besides Trump to raise these charges. 185 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:34,840 Speaker 4: You know, it could mean that these are people who 186 00:10:34,920 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 4: will ultimately be charged. It could mean these are people 187 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:41,640 Speaker 4: that prosecutors are hoping to cut a deal with, and 188 00:10:42,360 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 4: you know, it puts them on notice. And you know, 189 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 4: in conversations with the lawyers for some of the people 190 00:10:49,160 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 4: who are you quite obviously referenced in the indictment as 191 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:57,560 Speaker 4: these unindicted co conspirators. For instance, Conservative attorney John Eastman, 192 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:00,720 Speaker 4: his attorneys said to me, you know, so it's obvious 193 00:11:00,760 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 4: that's who they're referring to, even though they don't name him. 194 00:11:03,040 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 4: But this lawyer told me they didn't get notice from 195 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 4: the Justice Department that they were going to refer to 196 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 4: John Eastman. And this lawyer said that they have not 197 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,920 Speaker 4: gotten a target letter saying he should expect charges. So, 198 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 4: you know, it's not really clear what's going to happen 199 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:22,280 Speaker 4: to these people, but it does confirm what Jack Smith 200 00:11:22,360 --> 00:11:26,040 Speaker 4: said in announcing the indictment, which is that their investigation continues. 201 00:11:26,520 --> 00:11:29,440 Speaker 2: Zoey remind us of John Eastman's role in what happened 202 00:11:29,440 --> 00:11:30,080 Speaker 2: after the election. 203 00:11:31,000 --> 00:11:35,600 Speaker 4: John Eastman is a very prominent conservative legal thinker, and 204 00:11:35,880 --> 00:11:38,840 Speaker 4: he was a close advisor to Donald Trump during this period. 205 00:11:38,920 --> 00:11:41,360 Speaker 4: But you know, I think what the indictment focuses on 206 00:11:41,559 --> 00:11:45,160 Speaker 4: especially is the role that he played in drafting what 207 00:11:45,280 --> 00:11:49,240 Speaker 4: was considered sort of a plan for how to either 208 00:11:49,360 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 4: stop or delay Congress from certifying the vote. Constitutional scholars 209 00:11:53,960 --> 00:11:58,000 Speaker 4: widely panned the legal underpinnings of these memos that John 210 00:11:58,040 --> 00:12:00,719 Speaker 4: Eastman wrote, but you know, he was considered at the 211 00:12:00,760 --> 00:12:03,000 Speaker 4: time the architect of that plan. 212 00:12:04,120 --> 00:12:07,199 Speaker 2: And as you say, there's enough information in the indictment 213 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 2: to figure out who some of the other unindicted co 214 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:14,240 Speaker 2: conspirators are and who are they that's right. 215 00:12:14,520 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 4: The most prominent unindicted alleged co conspirator is co conspirator one, 216 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:21,760 Speaker 4: which we've matched to Rudy Giuliani, the former New York 217 00:12:21,800 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 4: City mayor and US attorney who was really directing the 218 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:30,360 Speaker 4: Trump campaigns legal efforts in battleground states to try and 219 00:12:30,880 --> 00:12:34,040 Speaker 4: stop the states from certifying that President Joe Biden won. 220 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,800 Speaker 4: Rudy Giuliani really played such a prominent role publicly in 221 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:41,360 Speaker 4: so many battleground states that it makes sense that he 222 00:12:41,400 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 4: would feature prominently in the indictment given the breadth of 223 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 4: the conspiracy that's alleged. The other individuals that we've identified 224 00:12:48,840 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 4: include Sidney Powell, another prominent conservative attorney who was also 225 00:12:54,480 --> 00:12:56,600 Speaker 4: involved in a lot of the legal efforts and brought 226 00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,679 Speaker 4: unsuccessful court challenges. There's also Jeffrey Clark, who was a 227 00:13:00,720 --> 00:13:03,760 Speaker 4: senior Justice Department official at the time and an ally 228 00:13:03,920 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 4: of Donald Trump, even as almost everyone else in the 229 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 4: Justice Department was trying to stop what the president was 230 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,080 Speaker 4: trying to do at the time, at one point, Trump 231 00:13:13,160 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 4: considered installing Jeffrey Clark as the acting Attorney General. There 232 00:13:16,559 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 4: was also Kenneth Cheesebro, another attorney involved in sort of 233 00:13:20,000 --> 00:13:23,680 Speaker 4: the state operations, and we always want to be careful 234 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 4: in naming someone who has not been charged. And so 235 00:13:26,960 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 4: what we did is the indictment features for the five 236 00:13:31,200 --> 00:13:35,119 Speaker 4: individuals that we've confirmed, you know, quotes and other information 237 00:13:35,600 --> 00:13:39,560 Speaker 4: that squarely matches what's already publicly known about what they 238 00:13:39,559 --> 00:13:42,640 Speaker 4: did in the post election period. And we've also independently 239 00:13:42,679 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 4: confirmed those names as being who those write ups in 240 00:13:46,440 --> 00:13:49,160 Speaker 4: the indictment are meant to refer to. There's a sixth 241 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,960 Speaker 4: person who's mentioned that we have not confirmed yet. 242 00:13:52,200 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 2: And what do the people we've been talking about say 243 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:55,000 Speaker 2: about all this? 244 00:13:55,840 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 4: They say that this is, you know, a political witch hunt. 245 00:13:58,400 --> 00:14:00,720 Speaker 4: They say that this is illegitimate. We've had, you know, 246 00:14:00,720 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 4: a statement from Rudy Giuliani's spokesperson saying this is the 247 00:14:05,600 --> 00:14:11,679 Speaker 4: Biden regime going after his enemies and protected speech. John Eastman, 248 00:14:11,960 --> 00:14:15,320 Speaker 4: we know his lawyers have been drafting a memo to 249 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:19,160 Speaker 4: send to the Special Counsel's office arguing why he was 250 00:14:19,320 --> 00:14:21,760 Speaker 4: just being a lawyer and that's not a crime. As 251 00:14:21,800 --> 00:14:24,440 Speaker 4: of now, no one has indicated that they are turning 252 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 4: on Donald Trump. Of the group that we've identified. 253 00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,400 Speaker 2: Sarah and Donald Trump, of course, has been very vocal 254 00:14:30,480 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 2: on social media. What is he saying about all this? 255 00:14:32,560 --> 00:14:36,360 Speaker 3: Yes, so Donald Trump is continuing to denounce these actions 256 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 3: as a witch hunt, you know, the corrupt Biden administration. 257 00:14:40,560 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 3: He even managed to jump out ahead of the Special 258 00:14:43,680 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 3: Council and announced once again that he was going to 259 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,880 Speaker 3: be indicted, you know, any day now. So he is 260 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:54,160 Speaker 3: using it to date very effectively to stoke his fundraising. 261 00:14:54,360 --> 00:14:57,280 Speaker 3: Even before the indictment came, he was sending out ads 262 00:14:57,480 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 3: flagging the indictment. He is, you know, using it as 263 00:15:00,720 --> 00:15:03,120 Speaker 3: part of his political campaign speech. 264 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:06,080 Speaker 4: And you know, we should note that he's been sued 265 00:15:06,160 --> 00:15:09,400 Speaker 4: civilly in connection with January sixth, and across all of 266 00:15:09,440 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 4: those cases has denied wrongdoing, denied liability, and we fully 267 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:16,480 Speaker 4: expect him to plead not guilty and fight these charges 268 00:15:16,600 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 4: as well. 269 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,000 Speaker 2: After the break, how Trump will defend himself against these 270 00:15:21,120 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 2: charges from the Special Cantle Zoey, we talked about Jack 271 00:15:38,200 --> 00:15:42,000 Speaker 2: Smith's case against Trump. What is the defense that Trump 272 00:15:42,280 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 2: is expected to mount. 273 00:15:45,560 --> 00:15:47,560 Speaker 4: A Few things that we can glean from what he 274 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:51,800 Speaker 4: said publicly and also you know, conversations with sources, the 275 00:15:52,200 --> 00:15:55,000 Speaker 4: main one being that how do they prove that he 276 00:15:55,160 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 4: knew that these were lies and what his intent was 277 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,320 Speaker 4: into taking all of the actions that he did. So 278 00:16:02,360 --> 00:16:05,520 Speaker 4: we've seen him repeatedly say what I was doing was 279 00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:10,840 Speaker 4: political activity. First Amendment protected speech. As both president and 280 00:16:10,960 --> 00:16:14,200 Speaker 4: as a US citizen, he certainly has a sweeping right 281 00:16:14,400 --> 00:16:18,120 Speaker 4: to speak and to say that he thinks something is 282 00:16:18,360 --> 00:16:23,080 Speaker 4: fraudulent or not. So, you know, we expect defenses framed 283 00:16:23,120 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 4: around you know, what he really believed at the time 284 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 4: and when he was saying to someone, please do X 285 00:16:29,680 --> 00:16:33,800 Speaker 4: because there has been fraud. Was that fraudulent in and 286 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,600 Speaker 4: of itself, or was that just him exercising his opinion 287 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,720 Speaker 4: and trying to encourage someone to take action based on that. 288 00:16:42,440 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 4: It is wrapped up in the politics of what happened, 289 00:16:44,880 --> 00:16:47,000 Speaker 4: which is going to be both complicated to prove and 290 00:16:47,040 --> 00:16:51,880 Speaker 4: defend against. We might see some re litigation over how 291 00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:55,680 Speaker 4: they gathered evidence in the case. Trump's lawyers had fought 292 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:58,800 Speaker 4: putting people like Mike Pence before the grand jury on 293 00:16:58,920 --> 00:17:02,400 Speaker 4: executive privilege ground. The case could be another vehicle for 294 00:17:02,440 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 4: them to try and get at least some pieces of 295 00:17:04,880 --> 00:17:08,200 Speaker 4: evidence or testimony tossed out, so can they chip away 296 00:17:08,200 --> 00:17:11,520 Speaker 4: at the indictment first before it goes to trial, they 297 00:17:11,600 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 4: could argue that there is no way to get a 298 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:17,040 Speaker 4: fair trial in Washington, which is a heavily democratic city 299 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:21,360 Speaker 4: that overwhelmingly voted against him. That's a really hard argument 300 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 4: to make and win, but they can try it. So 301 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:25,919 Speaker 4: you know, there are a couple ways for them to 302 00:17:25,960 --> 00:17:29,200 Speaker 4: make early attacks on the indictment, and then we've started 303 00:17:29,240 --> 00:17:31,800 Speaker 4: to see them lay the foundation for how they might 304 00:17:31,840 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 4: try to attack it in a trial. 305 00:17:34,280 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 3: The questions around the fraud claims are going to be 306 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:39,680 Speaker 3: very interesting, and it may be even that Jack Smith 307 00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 3: is trying to push them into attempting that kind of 308 00:17:42,280 --> 00:17:46,720 Speaker 3: a defense, which could be good for the prosecutor because 309 00:17:47,160 --> 00:17:50,080 Speaker 3: in all the sixty plus cases that they filed claiming 310 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,040 Speaker 3: that there was election fraud, they were all thrown out. 311 00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,160 Speaker 3: There was no evidence that was actually ever stood up, 312 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:58,399 Speaker 3: and so they don't really have a basis for that 313 00:17:58,480 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 3: kind of a defense. 314 00:18:00,160 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 2: Trump once again is expected to appear in court today. 315 00:18:04,760 --> 00:18:06,480 Speaker 2: What's going to happen there? What will we see? 316 00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 3: So we are expecting him to present himself. He will 317 00:18:09,960 --> 00:18:12,680 Speaker 3: not be arrested, but he will be booked. He will 318 00:18:12,680 --> 00:18:16,600 Speaker 3: have to give his personal information, He will be fingerprinted digitally, 319 00:18:17,000 --> 00:18:20,119 Speaker 3: we are expecting that he will enter a plea, although 320 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:23,440 Speaker 3: that has not yet been confirmed. We are fully expecting 321 00:18:23,800 --> 00:18:28,040 Speaker 3: yet another media circus around a Donald Trump or hearing. 322 00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,600 Speaker 2: And then Zoe, what actually happens next when it comes 323 00:18:31,640 --> 00:18:36,080 Speaker 2: to the calendar, how does this case proceed normally? 324 00:18:36,440 --> 00:18:39,720 Speaker 4: And this is not normal? Normally, we would expect things 325 00:18:39,800 --> 00:18:43,080 Speaker 4: to move fairly quickly. There would be a schedule set 326 00:18:43,160 --> 00:18:45,400 Speaker 4: for the government to turn over all of their evidence 327 00:18:45,920 --> 00:18:48,680 Speaker 4: to the lawyers, usually within a period of a couple 328 00:18:48,760 --> 00:18:51,280 Speaker 4: weeks or a couple months. The judge would set a 329 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 4: schedule for them. The defense then to file on emotions. 330 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:57,320 Speaker 4: If they want to contest the indictment or the evidence, 331 00:18:57,359 --> 00:19:00,479 Speaker 4: they could do that. They would argue over that, and 332 00:19:00,520 --> 00:19:02,520 Speaker 4: then we would have a trial date on the calendar, 333 00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:06,000 Speaker 4: and things would move at a fairly steady clip. The 334 00:19:06,040 --> 00:19:08,480 Speaker 4: complication here, of course, is that this is now the 335 00:19:08,520 --> 00:19:14,679 Speaker 4: third criminal indictment against Donald Trump. They're already extensive schedules 336 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:17,080 Speaker 4: set in the first two cases, the first in New 337 00:19:17,160 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 4: York in the hush money payment's case and the second 338 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,760 Speaker 4: in South Florida in the classified documents case. Even with 339 00:19:24,880 --> 00:19:27,399 Speaker 4: just one trial on the calendar in New York, the 340 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,080 Speaker 4: judge in Florida had to mediate a fight between the 341 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:34,359 Speaker 4: government and Trump's lawyers over how far out to set 342 00:19:34,400 --> 00:19:37,040 Speaker 4: a schedule. Trumps lawyers it argued for no schedule at 343 00:19:37,040 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 4: all until after the twenty twenty four election next November, 344 00:19:40,280 --> 00:19:43,280 Speaker 4: and we now have dates in both March and May 345 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 4: for trials. It's very likely that they would argue that 346 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 4: nothing can happen in Washington until after those trials take place. 347 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:55,080 Speaker 4: So you know, we're certainly anticipating another schedule fight. But 348 00:19:55,200 --> 00:19:57,640 Speaker 4: judges will have to be mindful of his rights as 349 00:19:57,640 --> 00:20:01,080 Speaker 4: a defendant, and that is a priority now for judges 350 00:20:01,200 --> 00:20:03,919 Speaker 4: at this stage. He is innocent until proven guilty. He 351 00:20:03,960 --> 00:20:06,600 Speaker 4: has a right to prepare his defense to be present. 352 00:20:06,880 --> 00:20:09,679 Speaker 4: They cannot try him in his absence. He needs to 353 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:12,280 Speaker 4: be there unless he doesn't want to be, but that 354 00:20:12,320 --> 00:20:15,320 Speaker 4: would be extraordinary. And then he's running for president and 355 00:20:15,359 --> 00:20:17,440 Speaker 4: there are commitments to that that they're going to argue 356 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:19,760 Speaker 4: are important and that he needs to be there for. 357 00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:23,000 Speaker 4: So you know, who knows what kind of date we're 358 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:25,320 Speaker 4: looking at and what kind of time frame for this third. 359 00:20:25,040 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 2: Case, And Sir, to complicate things even further, there's the 360 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 2: possibility even the likelihood of a fourth indictment in Georgia. 361 00:20:33,920 --> 00:20:35,600 Speaker 2: Can you catch us up on that case? 362 00:20:35,800 --> 00:20:39,520 Speaker 3: Absolutely? All eyes are now going to turn to Atlanta, 363 00:20:39,680 --> 00:20:44,240 Speaker 3: where the Fulton County District Attorney Fani Willis has already 364 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:48,000 Speaker 3: signaled that she is preparing to move on bringing charges 365 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:50,680 Speaker 3: in the first three weeks of August. She is also 366 00:20:50,720 --> 00:20:55,160 Speaker 3: investigating efforts to overturn the election. So very similar fact 367 00:20:55,320 --> 00:21:00,439 Speaker 3: patterns to what Jack Smith is alleging. We are racing 368 00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:03,600 Speaker 3: for the possibility that she could charge under the Reicho, 369 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 3: the Racketeering Act. So those could actually be very serious 370 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,159 Speaker 3: charges as well coming in Georgia. 371 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:15,160 Speaker 2: So Zoe, how do they actually schedule these different cases? 372 00:21:15,280 --> 00:21:18,160 Speaker 2: If Donald Trump has the right to be there for 373 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:21,080 Speaker 2: his trials as a practical matter, how can he be 374 00:21:21,160 --> 00:21:22,640 Speaker 2: in so many different places at once. 375 00:21:23,240 --> 00:21:27,040 Speaker 4: They may not know coordinate in a direct sense, but 376 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:29,480 Speaker 4: we already saw an example of this in Florida, where 377 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 4: as the judge with hearing arguments on the trial schedule, 378 00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 4: she asked the lawyers, you know, I tell me the 379 00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 4: date in New York and they said, the trial is 380 00:21:38,840 --> 00:21:41,520 Speaker 4: set for I think it's March twenty fourth or something around. 381 00:21:41,560 --> 00:21:44,320 Speaker 4: Then she said, how firm is that, you know, so 382 00:21:44,359 --> 00:21:46,240 Speaker 4: you can already see the wheels turning in her head 383 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:48,760 Speaker 4: that if it's a you know, March twenty fourth date, 384 00:21:49,240 --> 00:21:51,600 Speaker 4: she asked how much time is expected for that, If 385 00:21:51,600 --> 00:21:55,600 Speaker 4: they're expecting eight weeks or six weeks, She's then building 386 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 4: that out. A judge is not going to set a 387 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,840 Speaker 4: schedule in their court room that's going to interfere with 388 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,280 Speaker 4: another judges operation. So they might not be picking up 389 00:22:04,320 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 4: the phone to call that other judge, but they're going 390 00:22:07,280 --> 00:22:10,000 Speaker 4: to ask the lawyers to lay out all the dates 391 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:13,239 Speaker 4: when they need to be in court somewhere else, and 392 00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:15,679 Speaker 4: they will then have to have their clerk look at 393 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 4: their calendar and set dates that are somehow different, Zoe. 394 00:22:19,600 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 2: Another thing that it appears at least that Jack Smith 395 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:24,360 Speaker 2: may have in his favor is the judge in. 396 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,879 Speaker 4: This case, the judge that it's been randomly assigned to, 397 00:22:27,240 --> 00:22:30,760 Speaker 4: is Judge Tanya Chutkin. She has been on the bench 398 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:33,600 Speaker 4: for a number of years now. She was confirmed under 399 00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,480 Speaker 4: former President Barack Obama. You know, it's important to say 400 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 4: at the outset that judges receive lifetime appointments. They're not 401 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,200 Speaker 4: politically bound or required to be loyal to the president 402 00:22:45,280 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 4: or the party that put them on the bench. I 403 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,600 Speaker 4: think what Donald Trump is really up against is that 404 00:22:50,680 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 4: Judge Chutkin, along with most of the judges in Washington, 405 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,320 Speaker 4: have been hearing January sixth rioter cases for two years now, 406 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:02,880 Speaker 4: extremely familiar with the events of the day and what happened. 407 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:06,840 Speaker 4: And you know, Judge Chutkin is among those who have 408 00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 4: talked about the seriousness of what happened that day in 409 00:23:11,000 --> 00:23:13,800 Speaker 4: presiding over these other cases, you know, and she does 410 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:17,600 Speaker 4: not have a reputation as someone who has questioned the 411 00:23:17,640 --> 00:23:21,199 Speaker 4: government's narrative of what happened on January sixth. Only a 412 00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:23,879 Speaker 4: handful of judges have really pushed back on how the 413 00:23:23,920 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 4: government has prosecuted these cases so far, and she is 414 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:27,720 Speaker 4: not one of them. 415 00:23:27,960 --> 00:23:30,879 Speaker 2: When we come back, can Trump delay his trials until 416 00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:49,040 Speaker 2: after the election? Sarah? Of course, all of this is 417 00:23:49,080 --> 00:23:53,200 Speaker 2: happening as the twenty twenty four presidential campaign is heating 418 00:23:53,320 --> 00:23:58,200 Speaker 2: up and Donald Trump is surprisingly I suppose, use these 419 00:23:58,240 --> 00:23:59,680 Speaker 2: indictments to his benefit. 420 00:24:00,560 --> 00:24:03,520 Speaker 3: I mean, he has been very successful so far in 421 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 3: using them to raise money, and his followers have been 422 00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:12,119 Speaker 3: digging into their pockets and donating. We are watching to 423 00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:15,280 Speaker 3: see if that trend continues, there is some indication that 424 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:19,240 Speaker 3: maybe the shiny indictment motivator is wearing off a little 425 00:24:19,280 --> 00:24:22,160 Speaker 3: bit as the indictments pile up. So that is something 426 00:24:22,200 --> 00:24:24,760 Speaker 3: that we're going to be reporting into in the next 427 00:24:24,760 --> 00:24:25,560 Speaker 3: couple of days. 428 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:27,720 Speaker 2: Even and we know that one of the ways he's 429 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:31,280 Speaker 2: operated in the past is to try to delay trials 430 00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 2: as long as he can Zoe, as you mentioned, he 431 00:24:34,400 --> 00:24:37,479 Speaker 2: has a big incentive to try to push these until 432 00:24:37,560 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 2: after the election. Do you think that we're actually going 433 00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:44,240 Speaker 2: to see trials occur during the presidential campaign? 434 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:48,560 Speaker 4: As of now, it certainly looks very likely. The trial 435 00:24:48,600 --> 00:24:52,159 Speaker 4: in New York in the state hush money case is 436 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,359 Speaker 4: set for March, and there's been no indication that the 437 00:24:55,440 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 4: judge is open to reconsidering that timeline. In the Florida 438 00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 4: classified documents case, the judge set her schedule after hearing 439 00:25:04,400 --> 00:25:08,600 Speaker 4: arguments and considering, you know, objections from both sides, so 440 00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:12,960 Speaker 4: this was not a temporary placeholder calendar that she set. 441 00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:17,080 Speaker 4: I think one open question there is whether the expanded 442 00:25:17,160 --> 00:25:21,479 Speaker 4: superseding indictment that we've now gotten in Florida, whether that 443 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,520 Speaker 4: will prompt the defense to ask for another delay of 444 00:25:24,560 --> 00:25:27,840 Speaker 4: that May twentieth. Trial judges don't like being told what 445 00:25:27,960 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 4: to do. They like to have a reputation for running 446 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:34,639 Speaker 4: their courtrooms with a firm hand and not being seen 447 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:39,919 Speaker 4: as easily swayed or you know, influenced by the attorneys. 448 00:25:40,200 --> 00:25:43,040 Speaker 4: So you know, you tend to see judges say, once 449 00:25:43,080 --> 00:25:45,040 Speaker 4: I've said my piece, that's the end of this. 450 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:47,879 Speaker 3: The Florida judge was very interesting and when she was 451 00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,639 Speaker 3: getting all the back and forth about the campaign and 452 00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:52,840 Speaker 3: the elections and they wanted to push it off and 453 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 3: jax With wanted in December, and she said, let's just 454 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:58,959 Speaker 3: focus on the documents and the time that we're going 455 00:25:59,000 --> 00:26:01,720 Speaker 3: to need to get all these documents entered into the 456 00:26:01,760 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 3: record and you know, laid out in the proper way. 457 00:26:04,359 --> 00:26:07,520 Speaker 3: So she was very careful to steer clear of the 458 00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,399 Speaker 3: politics and the demands from both sides. 459 00:26:09,520 --> 00:26:09,920 Speaker 2: That's right. 460 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 4: She even told Trump's lawyers to basically move on from that, 461 00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:14,840 Speaker 4: that that was not going to be a part of 462 00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:17,720 Speaker 4: her decision in setting a schedule. So I would you know, 463 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 4: we would expect in DC now a similar approach where 464 00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:23,240 Speaker 4: the judge was going to ask for the you know, 465 00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,200 Speaker 4: practical logistics of how long do you need how much 466 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,560 Speaker 4: evidence is there, but a sweeping argument that this should 467 00:26:30,560 --> 00:26:35,440 Speaker 4: be indefinitely postponed after the election because of politics. It's 468 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:37,000 Speaker 4: going to be a very hard sell. 469 00:26:37,160 --> 00:26:39,280 Speaker 3: And just to go back to the Florida schedule for 470 00:26:39,320 --> 00:26:42,439 Speaker 3: a moment. If that may date is confirmed, conceivably we 471 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 3: could see a resolution before the election. 472 00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,679 Speaker 2: And of course that's an important point because if Trump 473 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:51,120 Speaker 2: is able to delay things, or if just these complicated 474 00:26:51,160 --> 00:26:54,479 Speaker 2: trials take a long time to reach their conclusions and 475 00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:58,040 Speaker 2: Trump is re elected president, it's been allowed to talk 476 00:26:58,040 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 2: about how he might choose to either direct his Justice 477 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,360 Speaker 2: Department to drop the cases or to pardon himself. 478 00:27:04,800 --> 00:27:09,040 Speaker 4: That's right. It's an open question whether he can pardon 479 00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 4: himself on federal charges. It is a closed question when 480 00:27:12,600 --> 00:27:15,200 Speaker 4: it comes to state charges. So it's important to say 481 00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:19,200 Speaker 4: that if he's convicted in New York, or if there's 482 00:27:19,200 --> 00:27:22,640 Speaker 4: an indictment in Georgia and he's convicted there, as president, 483 00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 4: he does not have the power to tell anyone what 484 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:27,840 Speaker 4: to do, and he can't pardon himself on federal charges. 485 00:27:28,320 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 4: You know, in theory, it's possible that he could pardon himself. 486 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:36,000 Speaker 4: The president has pretty much unfettered power to pardon anyone, 487 00:27:36,280 --> 00:27:40,399 Speaker 4: but you know, it would certainly be extraordinary and legal 488 00:27:40,440 --> 00:27:42,959 Speaker 4: scholars would have a lot to say about it. If 489 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,920 Speaker 4: if these cases are pending and he tried to direct 490 00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 4: the Justice Department to stop them, it would trigger all 491 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,440 Speaker 4: sorts of legal and political mayhem. So there are a 492 00:27:54,480 --> 00:27:58,239 Speaker 4: lot of different uncertainties and possibilities of what happens if 493 00:27:58,240 --> 00:27:58,680 Speaker 4: he wins. 494 00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,119 Speaker 3: It just shows how how much we really are in 495 00:28:01,280 --> 00:28:05,080 Speaker 3: uncharted territory with these cases and with this scenario. 496 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:09,040 Speaker 2: Absolutely, Zoe, Obviously, there's just so much to keep track of, 497 00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 2: even just trying to put it all down on a calendar. 498 00:28:12,240 --> 00:28:15,199 Speaker 2: As you continue to report on this what are the 499 00:28:15,240 --> 00:28:17,280 Speaker 2: things you're most watching. 500 00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:20,479 Speaker 4: For right now? It is It is the schedule. It 501 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:23,640 Speaker 4: is literally plotting dates on a calendar, or my case, 502 00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,840 Speaker 4: on a very intense color coded spreadsheet, you know, knowing 503 00:28:26,920 --> 00:28:30,080 Speaker 4: when different filings are due in court. You know, we 504 00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:33,200 Speaker 4: want to make sure that we're covering in the totality 505 00:28:33,640 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 4: what both sides are arguing in court, and then how 506 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:39,440 Speaker 4: that matches with what Donald Trump is saying publicly and 507 00:28:39,480 --> 00:28:42,640 Speaker 4: on the campaign trail. It's you know, being in the courtroom, 508 00:28:42,880 --> 00:28:45,880 Speaker 4: a downside of federal court proceedings is there are no 509 00:28:45,960 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 4: cameras in the courtroom, and so making sure that we 510 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,600 Speaker 4: have eyes on not just what the lawyers are doing, 511 00:28:51,680 --> 00:28:54,760 Speaker 4: but how the judges are handling these cases. So, you know, 512 00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:58,400 Speaker 4: from the perspective of allegal reporter, really is just making 513 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:03,959 Speaker 4: sure we're reading everything, watching everything, just managing those logistics. 514 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:03,880 Speaker 2: On our end. 515 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:04,600 Speaker 5: It is. 516 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 4: I mean, you know, once it's indicted, it's all on 517 00:29:07,280 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 4: the public record. Now the question now is, you know, 518 00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:13,840 Speaker 4: how do they prove it, and how do they defend it? 519 00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:16,320 Speaker 4: And what does a judge and a jury do with 520 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 4: all of it? 521 00:29:17,520 --> 00:29:20,760 Speaker 2: Zoe Sarah, thanks so much for speaking with me, Thanks. 522 00:29:20,560 --> 00:29:22,200 Speaker 3: For having us, Thanks for having. 523 00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:25,040 Speaker 2: Us, Thanks for listening to us here at The Big Take. 524 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:28,440 Speaker 2: It's a daily podcast from Bloomberg and iHeartRadio. For more 525 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 2: shows from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or 526 00:29:32,640 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 2: wherever you listen, and we'd love to hear from you. 527 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,680 Speaker 2: Email us questions or comments to Big Take at Bloomberg 528 00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,040 Speaker 2: dot net. The supervising producer of The Big Take and 529 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:46,040 Speaker 2: the producer of this episode is Vicky Bergolina. Our senior 530 00:29:46,040 --> 00:29:50,520 Speaker 2: producer is Catherine Fink, with additional production support from Moberrow 531 00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:54,320 Speaker 2: and Raphael I'm Silely. Our original music was composed by 532 00:29:54,400 --> 00:29:57,800 Speaker 2: Leo Sidrin. I'm west Kasova. We'll be back tomorrow with 533 00:29:57,920 --> 00:30:03,720 Speaker 2: another big take down the count turn the Down, Spoken b.