WEBVTT - Attacking Palestinian Health 0:00:02.490 --> 0:00:10.059 Hello everyone and welcome to It Could Happen Here. My 0:00:10.080 --> 0:00:13.039 name is Dana Al-Khurd. I'm a researcher and analyst of 0:00:13.060 --> 0:00:16.840 Arab and Palestinian politics. Today I'm talking with Yara Asi, 0:00:16.940 --> 0:00:20.020 who is a Palestinian scholar, author, and public health researcher 0:00:20.540 --> 0:00:23.930 studying how conflict, structural violence, and political systems shape health 0:00:23.970 --> 0:00:27.230 and human security. And she's also a non-resident fellow at 0:00:27.250 --> 0:00:30.740 the Arab Center Washington, where I'm also a non-resident fellow. 0:00:31.040 --> 0:00:33.320 And she's been doing a lot of excellent work highlighting 0:00:33.360 --> 0:00:37.360 the health impacts of Israeli policies and American policies in 0:00:37.380 --> 0:00:40.410 the Middle East generally, but also particularly in Israel-Palestine. So 0:00:40.430 --> 0:00:43.050 today we're going to talk about what are the health 0:00:43.090 --> 0:00:45.769 conditions in Gaza? I think that we have seen a 0:00:45.909 --> 0:00:49.770 lot of the spectacular violence. We understand and even the 0:00:49.810 --> 0:00:53.800 most unaware understand the degree to which Gaza has been devastated. 0:00:54.240 --> 0:00:55.980 But she breaks down for us what that looks like 0:00:56.020 --> 0:00:58.590 and what are the policies that are being used to 0:00:59.090 --> 0:01:01.770 attack Palestinian health in Gaza and in the West Bank. 0:01:02.250 --> 0:01:06.980 And then what it means for the Palestinian people to 0:01:07.020 --> 0:01:11.520 be so de-developed, not only economically, but at every sector. 0:01:11.560 --> 0:01:12.460 Including the health sector. 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:17.270 It's a very bleak episode. None of my episodes are good, 0:01:17.390 --> 0:01:21.569 but this one is particularly hard to listen to. There's 0:01:21.610 --> 0:01:24.890 also a mention of sexual violence. Not in detail, of course, 0:01:24.970 --> 0:01:27.569 but I do want to just put that out there 0:01:27.670 --> 0:01:30.830 for listeners as fair warning, because that is a very 0:01:31.010 --> 0:01:35.110 triggering conversation, regardless even if it is at the simplest 0:01:35.130 --> 0:01:40.260 level of detail. But without further ado, this is Yara about... 0:01:40.770 --> 0:01:43.929 the health impacts of Israeli policy on the Palestinian people. 0:01:44.390 --> 0:01:45.030 Thank you for listening. 0:01:48.110 --> 0:01:49.940 Yola, thank you so much for being on the show. 0:01:50.880 --> 0:01:51.740 Thank you for having me. 0:01:52.160 --> 0:01:53.940 So I want to start, we're going to talk both 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:56.120 about Gaza and the West Bank, but I want to 0:01:56.140 --> 0:01:59.230 start with Gaza at the beginning here. Could you give 0:01:59.270 --> 0:02:01.910 us a rundown of what health conditions are like in 0:02:01.950 --> 0:02:02.710 Gaza right now? 0:02:03.220 --> 0:02:04.050 Yeah, absolutely. 0:02:04.110 --> 0:02:05.970 You know, this has been obviously the focus of a 0:02:06.010 --> 0:02:08.930 lot of health research over the past three years since 0:02:08.970 --> 0:02:11.430 the beginning of the genocide. And for good reason, because 0:02:11.470 --> 0:02:14.970 it's kind of a microcosm of every possible public health 0:02:15.639 --> 0:02:19.840 disaster you could imagine in a single, very small, very 0:02:19.900 --> 0:02:24.280 populated setting. So just, you know, some top line numbers. 0:02:24.340 --> 0:02:28.370 We know that at the very least, 74,000 Palestinians have 0:02:28.410 --> 0:02:33.519 been killed since October 7th. And epidemiological projections estimate that 0:02:33.560 --> 0:02:36.870 the number is likely much higher, especially when you add 0:02:36.880 --> 0:02:41.310 in all of those that have died from starvation, malnutrition, 0:02:41.910 --> 0:02:45.070 or lack of access to healthcare because they had cancer 0:02:45.210 --> 0:02:48.910 or they needed a heart surgery or brain surgery or something. 0:02:49.570 --> 0:02:54.139 We know that at least 20,000, around 20,000 people in Gaza, 0:02:54.180 --> 0:02:58.440 many of whom are children, require immediate medical evacuations for 0:02:58.540 --> 0:03:02.380 some sort of procedure unrelated typically to trauma. We're talking 0:03:02.419 --> 0:03:06.440 a lot of cancer cases, high-risk pregnancies, complex surgeries that 0:03:06.460 --> 0:03:08.960 they can no longer get in the Gaza Strip because 0:03:09.460 --> 0:03:13.020 the healthcare system has been essentially decimated. As of this 0:03:13.080 --> 0:03:17.210 past month, there's also more than 100,000 injuries. Many of 0:03:17.270 --> 0:03:23.190 those are life-changing injuries, amputations, nerve damage, spinal damage, brain 0:03:23.210 --> 0:03:28.419 damage that will require lifelong rehabilitation. And the obvious question is, 0:03:29.090 --> 0:03:30.910 who's going to do that and who's going to pay 0:03:30.950 --> 0:03:33.370 for that and what's going to happen to those people. 0:03:34.070 --> 0:03:38.370 Less than half of Gaza's hospitals are even partially functioning. 0:03:39.150 --> 0:03:42.200 So prior to the genocide, Gaza had about 36 hospitals, 0:03:42.720 --> 0:03:45.900 many of which offered a variety of services, but some 0:03:45.940 --> 0:03:50.380 of which were specialized, you know, cancer care, pediatric hospital. 0:03:50.400 --> 0:03:53.600 Now we're at a point where the hospitals that are 0:03:53.820 --> 0:03:57.370 even still open because so many were damaged, destroyed, or 0:03:57.450 --> 0:04:00.860 just have no resources, are just basically able to do 0:04:00.880 --> 0:04:06.820 basic care, emergency care, triage, basic wound management. Israel is 0:04:06.840 --> 0:04:12.430 still restricting at the border. Medical supplies, basic pharmaceuticals, medications, 0:04:13.090 --> 0:04:16.290 things that would be available in basically any other context 0:04:16.370 --> 0:04:19.650 on earth, even in low-income countries, are not available in 0:04:19.670 --> 0:04:23.020 the Gaza Strip. We know that 1,700 health workers and 0:04:23.060 --> 0:04:26.150 humanitarian workers have been killed in Gaza. many of whom 0:04:26.190 --> 0:04:30.630 were directly targeted, either in their homes or in aid convoys. And, 0:04:30.750 --> 0:04:33.880 you know, it's an environmental disaster. So there's sewage in 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:38.460 the streets. There's lack of clean water. There's rats, yes, 0:04:38.580 --> 0:04:41.920 fighting people in their tents. God knows what floating in 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.470 the air that people are inhaling on a daily basis, 0:04:44.529 --> 0:04:48.830 including babies and children. So it is just as bad 0:04:48.870 --> 0:04:51.690 as we imagine. And, you know, we're about, what, a 0:04:51.750 --> 0:04:56.010 year now from this quote-unquote ceasefire situation. More than 1,400 0:04:56.010 --> 0:05:00.220 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed since the, quote unquote, ceasefire. 0:05:00.960 --> 0:05:01.740 And others are. 0:05:01.660 --> 0:05:05.339 Dying in other completely inhumane ways, such as building collapse 0:05:05.380 --> 0:05:08.719 that we saw a couple of weeks ago. Because many people, 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:12.460 to avoid the rats and the cold, because winter is coming, 0:05:12.960 --> 0:05:16.180 have just decided, I'm going to go back to a structure, 0:05:16.460 --> 0:05:18.599 even if it is half collapsed. 0:05:18.620 --> 0:05:19.040 Damaged. 0:05:19.220 --> 0:05:20.560 Damaged. 0:05:20.580 --> 0:05:24.340 And we're unfortunately seeing that Some of these structures are 0:05:24.380 --> 0:05:28.159 collapsing with people and families inside. So, you know, although 0:05:28.220 --> 0:05:31.420 the health crisis in Gaza has kind of disappeared from 0:05:31.460 --> 0:05:35.770 the news as soon as the ceasefire process started, the 0:05:35.810 --> 0:05:38.469 health catastrophe is just as bad and it is not 0:05:38.490 --> 0:05:38.950 getting better. 0:05:39.470 --> 0:05:41.290 You know, I get stuck on this question. It's like, 0:05:41.710 --> 0:05:43.750 like you said, what's going to happen to these people, 0:05:43.890 --> 0:05:48.300 even if the ceasefire stopped killing people, which, you know, 0:05:48.320 --> 0:05:51.599 like you said, there are still people dying. Like, we 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:56.120 need something so... dramatic. And it shouldn't be the case 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:59.140 that the rest of the world steps in to pay 0:05:59.230 --> 0:06:04.510 for Israel's crimes. Anyway, that's a whole other issue. But 0:06:04.529 --> 0:06:06.729 I want to highlight some of the work that you 0:06:06.770 --> 0:06:09.970 have been doing for the Arab Center Washington in particular. 0:06:10.410 --> 0:06:12.060 And I'll put all of these in the show notes 0:06:12.120 --> 0:06:14.220 as well. But you wrote a piece for the Arab 0:06:14.240 --> 0:06:19.440 Center Washington about medical evacuation and that Israel is controlling 0:06:19.460 --> 0:06:21.159 this process and using it as a tool of war. 0:06:21.339 --> 0:06:24.210 So could you break down this argument for us and 0:06:24.250 --> 0:06:26.110 describe it to listeners who may not be as familiar. 0:06:26.630 --> 0:06:27.600 Yeah, absolutely. 0:06:27.740 --> 0:06:30.720 So due to the blockade in Gaza, we're talking the 0:06:30.820 --> 0:06:35.320 pre-2023 blockade, as well as the import restrictions in the 0:06:35.360 --> 0:06:38.440 West Bank that have kind of put a ceiling on 0:06:38.480 --> 0:06:41.010 what the local health systems are able to do. So 0:06:41.490 --> 0:06:45.330 certain medical equipment is banned by Israel from entering Gaza 0:06:45.370 --> 0:06:49.050 or the West Bank. And so the For decades, there 0:06:49.089 --> 0:06:52.250 has been a medical permit system that Palestinians have to 0:06:52.290 --> 0:06:56.310 apply to a permit, apply to Israel, mind you, receive 0:06:56.330 --> 0:07:00.450 permission from COGAT, paid for by the Palestinian Authority. So 0:07:00.570 --> 0:07:04.260 Israel is not paying for these medical evacuations. And they 0:07:04.320 --> 0:07:07.760 would leave the West Bank or Gaza to receive care, 0:07:08.300 --> 0:07:12.680 usually in East Jerusalem, sometimes in Israel, sometimes in neighboring 0:07:12.740 --> 0:07:17.580 countries like Jordan and Egypt. As of October 7th, Israel 0:07:17.620 --> 0:07:21.120 essentially closed that process that had existed. And this was 0:07:21.200 --> 0:07:23.820 an already broken process. And I could talk to you 0:07:23.920 --> 0:07:27.190 all day about that process before even all of the 0:07:27.710 --> 0:07:32.270 current situation. But what has happened is Israel is really 0:07:32.350 --> 0:07:36.430 tightly constricting who is able to leave the Gaza Strip, 0:07:36.630 --> 0:07:38.650 even to go to the West Bank, which is both 0:07:38.840 --> 0:07:42.460 occupied Palestinian territory and to receive the medical care that 0:07:42.500 --> 0:07:44.760 they need. I was just at an event last week 0:07:44.840 --> 0:07:48.190 where the CEO of Augusta Victoria Hospital, which is one 0:07:48.210 --> 0:07:51.010 of the main hospitals in the East Jerusalem Hospital Network, 0:07:51.510 --> 0:07:55.810 which is where many Palestinians go, especially for cancer care, 0:07:56.330 --> 0:07:58.810 he said he hasn't seen a single patient from Gaza 0:07:58.830 --> 0:08:02.430 since October 7th. The World Health Organization has a list of, again, 0:08:02.470 --> 0:08:06.120 approximately 20,000 cases of people that need to leave to 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:10.200 receive care. And aside from the fact that Israel is 0:08:10.420 --> 0:08:14.260 often delaying approval of these permits, and anyone listening knows, 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:17.309 when you have a health issue, you don't have infinite time. 0:08:17.710 --> 0:08:20.370 They're usually time-sensitive, especially if. 0:08:20.370 --> 0:08:25.570 You're dealing with something like cancer or pregnancy, obviously very time-sensitive. 0:08:26.070 --> 0:08:29.770 If you delay, you're going to need more care, greater care, 0:08:29.910 --> 0:08:32.650 and your prognosis is just worse. You're much more likely, 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.260 if you do have cancer— Wouldn't we rather treat it 0:08:35.300 --> 0:08:38.050 when you're stage one than when you're stage four and 0:08:38.070 --> 0:08:40.670 you're finally able to get the permit? So we are 0:08:40.750 --> 0:08:44.309 seeing people dying while waiting for these permits. We have 0:08:44.370 --> 0:08:47.430 heard reports that for some people who did manage to 0:08:47.490 --> 0:08:51.030 leave Gaza to receive care, that they were being forced 0:08:51.110 --> 0:08:54.730 to sign forms that would basically not allow them back 0:08:54.770 --> 0:08:56.770 into Gaza. So yes, we will let you leave to 0:08:56.790 --> 0:08:59.890 get the care you need, but you can't return. And 0:08:59.970 --> 0:09:02.829 we're just seeing a blockage of this system. So there 0:09:02.870 --> 0:09:05.580 have been countries that have been willing to pay for 0:09:05.840 --> 0:09:10.540 and take these medical evacuees. But even in some of 0:09:10.580 --> 0:09:14.760 these recipient countries, we're talking dozens of cases, maybe hundreds 0:09:14.880 --> 0:09:18.440 in a few. We need thousands of cases here. And 0:09:18.540 --> 0:09:20.300 also at the same time, we need to think about 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:22.760 what rebuilding the health system in Gaza looks like. So 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:27.040 we don't need to engage in this medical permit system 0:09:27.179 --> 0:09:30.410 as broadly. Now that I don't think we'll see that 0:09:30.450 --> 0:09:34.910 anytime soon. So Israel uses its control of the territories 0:09:35.050 --> 0:09:38.900 to affect health conditions inside, not just the health system, 0:09:38.940 --> 0:09:41.920 but also, as I said, sewage, lack of electricity, lack 0:09:41.940 --> 0:09:45.890 of nutritious food. Then it controls the process that Palestinians 0:09:45.929 --> 0:09:48.460 have to use to leave to get care, even if 0:09:48.500 --> 0:09:50.400 it is not Israel where they are going to get 0:09:50.440 --> 0:09:52.740 the care. Even if Egypt is willing to accept them 0:09:52.860 --> 0:09:55.330 or Italy is willing to accept them or the UAE 0:09:55.450 --> 0:10:00.859 or whoever, ultimately, this is an Israel permit process. And 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:04.360 this has been a situation, again, since especially the blockade 0:10:04.420 --> 0:10:06.420 started in 2006 in Gaza. 0:10:06.920 --> 0:10:08.520 And we have long argued that. 0:10:08.420 --> 0:10:11.900 This is unjust to put someone's health in the hands 0:10:12.020 --> 0:10:15.900 of an occupying power. And what we saw over the 0:10:15.970 --> 0:10:18.969 years was not just denials going up of the need 0:10:19.010 --> 0:10:22.820 for these permits, but but delays such that people are 0:10:22.860 --> 0:10:25.570 missing appointments, people are not getting timely care, and people 0:10:25.650 --> 0:10:28.450 are dying while waiting for services. So this has long 0:10:28.490 --> 0:10:30.750 been a really unjust process. And now we're kind of 0:10:30.830 --> 0:10:36.170 seeing the inevitable outcome of not challenging that process, the 0:10:36.210 --> 0:10:40.350 impunity that Israel has had in controlling basically every aspect 0:10:40.370 --> 0:10:43.770 of Palestinian health. And now we have people who are 0:10:43.809 --> 0:10:46.170 dying while waiting for chemotherapy. 0:10:46.390 --> 0:10:48.080 It's really inhumane. 0:10:48.860 --> 0:10:51.179 I think at least some of us who follow this 0:10:51.470 --> 0:10:55.390 more closely, at this point, it's ridiculous how accustomed we 0:10:55.429 --> 0:10:59.910 have become to the news item that says, this person 0:10:59.950 --> 0:11:01.950 died at a checkpoint waiting to go to the hospital. 0:11:02.330 --> 0:11:06.760 But this on a massive scale, it's truly dystopian, the 0:11:06.800 --> 0:11:11.740 degree to which Palestinians have no control over any part 0:11:12.020 --> 0:11:27.750 of their lives. It's heartbreaking and dystopian. Also in December, 0:11:28.260 --> 0:11:33.220 you wrote about how Israel suspended 37 humanitarian groups, including 0:11:33.460 --> 0:11:37.260 the Norwegian Refugee Council, the IRC. And these groups provided 0:11:37.360 --> 0:11:40.590 more than half of Gaza's food assistance and supported the 0:11:40.630 --> 0:11:44.430 hospitals as well, if I understand correctly. So what justification 0:11:44.470 --> 0:11:47.390 did Israel give for suspending these humanitarian groups and what 0:11:47.429 --> 0:11:48.310 is really going on here? 0:11:48.750 --> 0:11:51.510 So Israel has used the same justification that it has 0:11:51.670 --> 0:11:54.290 used basically for every restriction that it has placed on 0:11:54.309 --> 0:12:00.460 Palestinian life, which is this kind of blanket, unquestionable, 100% urgent, 0:12:00.530 --> 0:12:05.320 necessary security needs. So all of this, the checkpoints, the 0:12:05.360 --> 0:12:11.000 permit system, the incarceration of Palestinians, the, I mean, all 0:12:11.020 --> 0:12:14.660 of it, this whole system is justified by Israel, again, 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:17.100 and its allies as this kind of, we need this 0:12:17.140 --> 0:12:20.630 for security. And so we have seen that with humanitarian 0:12:20.670 --> 0:12:23.720 organizations as well. Now, I won't get too into the 0:12:24.000 --> 0:12:27.940 preamble of this, but even before this new registration rules 0:12:27.980 --> 0:12:32.520 for humanitarian organizations, Israel has been working very hard to 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:37.040 whittle away the power and access that humanitarian organizations have, 0:12:37.140 --> 0:12:40.300 perhaps most notably to your audience in UNRWA, which it 0:12:40.350 --> 0:12:46.040 has been discrediting, delegitimizing for decades. Because UNRWA is, for 0:12:46.090 --> 0:12:49.070 all its flaws, an organization that does recognize the rights 0:12:49.170 --> 0:12:53.809 of Palestinians to return to their homeland. And so Israel 0:12:53.910 --> 0:12:58.510 kind of placed all these accusations on UNRWA that members 0:12:58.570 --> 0:13:02.270 were aligned with October 7th or participated in October 7th. 0:13:02.950 --> 0:13:05.730 It caused a lot of countries to cut funding. Now, 0:13:05.870 --> 0:13:10.390 independent investigations have since found that, of course, these accusations 0:13:10.450 --> 0:13:14.360 were completely unfounded in most cases. And at the very least, 0:13:14.480 --> 0:13:19.520 did not justify kind of dismantling the entire organization. But 0:13:20.320 --> 0:13:22.880 as it has happened many times, nothing really was done. 0:13:22.980 --> 0:13:25.060 I mean, this kind of happens. People say, well, gee, 0:13:25.100 --> 0:13:27.640 that's not fair. And then everyone just kind of moves on. 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:32.070 So the inevitable has happened, which is now Israel, again, 0:13:32.090 --> 0:13:35.270 an occupying power, which is not in debate, according to 0:13:35.309 --> 0:13:40.390 international law. is trying to impose new restrictions on humanitarian 0:13:40.450 --> 0:13:44.050 organizations who are working, particularly in the Gaza Strip. And 0:13:44.200 --> 0:13:47.540 part of what they are requiring is the name and 0:13:47.679 --> 0:13:52.580 address of every local worker that works at these agencies. Now, 0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:55.620 let's think for two seconds about why these agencies may 0:13:55.660 --> 0:13:58.720 not want to engage in that. Humanitarian and health workers 0:13:59.020 --> 0:14:02.400 have been killed in their homes by bombs with their 0:14:02.460 --> 0:14:06.520 families there. Aid convoys that have been clearly marked. I 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:09.160 probably your audience is very familiar with the World Central 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:13.260 Kitchen convoy and that kind of infamous image of this 0:14:13.360 --> 0:14:14.699 van with the logo. 0:14:14.520 --> 0:14:16.740 On it with a bomb right next to it. 0:14:17.300 --> 0:14:20.820 And so many of these organizations said, we're not going 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:21.600 to be able to do that. 0:14:21.640 --> 0:14:22.440 We're not going to do that. 0:14:22.460 --> 0:14:25.140 But we're essentially you're asking us to give you all 0:14:25.180 --> 0:14:29.630 the personal information of our staff. Now, Israel had initially said, 0:14:29.790 --> 0:14:31.970 if you don't comply with these by March, at the 0:14:32.010 --> 0:14:34.880 time that I wrote that piece, then they would be deregistered. 0:14:35.340 --> 0:14:38.620 We've since seen many organizations come out and say that 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:40.239 they would not participate. 0:14:40.360 --> 0:14:41.100 Some have. 0:14:41.460 --> 0:14:45.020 So we have seen some compliance by some organizations. And 0:14:45.060 --> 0:14:47.860 of course, their argument is always, well, we need access. 0:14:47.920 --> 0:14:49.540 And this is what we have to do for the access. 0:14:50.060 --> 0:14:53.550 So we have seen some delays in Israel's courts as 0:14:53.610 --> 0:14:58.030 to actual implementation of this. And organizations like UNRWA and 0:14:58.150 --> 0:15:02.070 others that have a heavy local Palestinian staff presence on 0:15:02.110 --> 0:15:05.510 the ground, they don't need internationals to get entry permits, 0:15:05.590 --> 0:15:08.979 which Israel is blocking. And we've seen this increase in 0:15:09.040 --> 0:15:13.660 recent months. Basically, foreigners of all types, including foreign ministers 0:15:13.680 --> 0:15:16.760 who are trying to enter the West Bank, let alone Gaza, 0:15:17.100 --> 0:15:21.120 are being turned away. But we have seen those organizations 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:25.190 are still functional to some level, but I have heard 0:15:25.290 --> 0:15:28.610 whispers and, you know, people are very, very concerned about 0:15:28.630 --> 0:15:31.190 what this means for the future of these organizations as 0:15:31.250 --> 0:15:34.320 it relates to their work with Palestinians. Local staff need 0:15:34.340 --> 0:15:36.860 to be paid. They need to be sure that they're safe. 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:39.560 They need to have the equipment and resources that they 0:15:39.620 --> 0:15:45.100 need to help people. And so, again, Israel creates rules 0:15:45.480 --> 0:15:47.980 and then basically says, you have to submit to these 0:15:48.060 --> 0:15:50.300 rules or you won't be able to do what you 0:15:50.340 --> 0:15:53.460 need to do, what you're tasked to do, and what 0:15:53.480 --> 0:15:56.910 you had previously been permitted to do. Again, the rules 0:15:56.950 --> 0:16:00.370 themselves are unquestioned. Again, we saw some condemnations of this, 0:16:00.430 --> 0:16:03.890 but primarily from the humanitarian organizations themselves, we saw quite 0:16:03.910 --> 0:16:07.130 a strong statement early on signed by many of them that. 0:16:07.070 --> 0:16:09.080 Said, this is completely unacceptable. 0:16:09.900 --> 0:16:13.340 But unfortunately, the the global powers and the funders of 0:16:13.360 --> 0:16:16.200 these organizations have not meaningfully pushed back on this. Now, 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:18.660 we're seeing a lot of upheaval, and I won't go 0:16:18.700 --> 0:16:21.900 too much into this, in the Israeli Supreme Court. And 0:16:21.940 --> 0:16:24.260 of course, Israel has elections coming up. So a lot 0:16:24.300 --> 0:16:26.560 of these processes have been kind of delayed and put 0:16:26.620 --> 0:16:31.590 on hold. So we're really interested, to say the least, 0:16:31.730 --> 0:16:35.370 as to how a lot of this unfolds after Israel's elections. 0:16:35.960 --> 0:16:37.980 Correct me if I'm wrong with this, because obviously this 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:40.000 is not my area of expertise, but I was at 0:16:40.020 --> 0:16:44.200 a meeting with the commissioner general of UNRWA recently. I mean, 0:16:44.220 --> 0:16:46.680 let me, before I ask the question, also tell the 0:16:46.720 --> 0:16:48.620 listeners without bearing the lead, the reason they want to 0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:51.570 dismantle UNRWA is because it keeps alive this, or they 0:16:51.610 --> 0:16:53.160 think it keeps alive this issue of the right of 0:16:53.210 --> 0:16:55.910 return as if like that is a right that can 0:16:56.590 --> 0:17:01.110 disappear if UNRWA disappears. Now that said, UNRWA has been 0:17:01.150 --> 0:17:03.830 under attack. And like you said, they've attempted to dismantle 0:17:03.870 --> 0:17:06.689 it in a variety of ways, but Based on what 0:17:06.730 --> 0:17:11.290 I heard at that meeting, UNRWA does comply with the 0:17:11.310 --> 0:17:16.230 state of Israel. UNRWA does provide lists and fires people 0:17:16.290 --> 0:17:19.650 based on Israeli suspicions. And at least this is what 0:17:20.170 --> 0:17:22.780 I got out of that meeting. Maybe I misunderstood the 0:17:22.820 --> 0:17:23.840 degree of coordination. 0:17:24.240 --> 0:17:24.500 Yes. 0:17:24.800 --> 0:17:27.240 So we could have a whole other episode, right, about critique. 0:17:27.260 --> 0:17:28.020 About UNRWA. 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:28.300 Yeah. 0:17:28.840 --> 0:17:31.300 And that would be a whole interesting conversation. 0:17:31.400 --> 0:17:36.010 But UNRWA has, rightfully so, been critiqued by Palestinians. 0:17:36.230 --> 0:17:38.690 So when you look at camps. 0:17:38.310 --> 0:17:43.770 And they're really underdeveloped, overcrowded, very dusty, very thin streets, 0:17:44.010 --> 0:17:46.790 and then you look at the UNRWA school, big, shiny, 0:17:47.310 --> 0:17:49.970 the foreign staff that are coming in to overlook these 0:17:50.030 --> 0:17:53.490 schools and hospitals are paid much higher salaries than the 0:17:53.530 --> 0:17:58.230 Palestinian staff. There's a whole host of arguments about UNRWA. 0:17:58.630 --> 0:18:01.379 And it's important to remember that when UNRWA kind of 0:18:01.410 --> 0:18:03.600 was founded in the late 1940s to deal with this 0:18:05.000 --> 0:18:10.070 new and expectedly short-term Palestinian refugee problem. At the same time, 0:18:10.109 --> 0:18:13.090 there was another kind of strain that was meant to 0:18:13.130 --> 0:18:16.330 deal with the political side. So Uderwa was never meant 0:18:16.410 --> 0:18:18.710 to be a political actor. It was only meant to 0:18:18.750 --> 0:18:21.490 kind of provide relief in these new camps that had 0:18:21.550 --> 0:18:25.830 sprung up that went from tents to buildings to basically towns. 0:18:26.350 --> 0:18:29.710 And so in some ways, they are critiqued for something 0:18:29.750 --> 0:18:32.840 that is not their mandate. They are a relief organization. 0:18:32.950 --> 0:18:36.360 And so as long as Palestinian refugees need relief, their 0:18:36.420 --> 0:18:38.139 argument is, we're going to give the relief. 0:18:38.720 --> 0:18:40.460 Someone else needs to work out the political side. 0:18:40.960 --> 0:18:44.000 And we can argue about how that relief and how 0:18:44.040 --> 0:18:48.530 humanitarian ecosystem as a whole has kind of enabled Israel's 0:18:48.690 --> 0:18:51.550 actions and made it so that Israel does not have 0:18:51.590 --> 0:18:54.530 to comply with its obligations as an occupying power to 0:18:54.570 --> 0:18:59.020 provide food, to provide medicine, to not transfer populations, for example, 0:18:59.119 --> 0:19:02.570 from occupied territory to Israeli jails. We can have a 0:19:02.609 --> 0:19:07.930 conversation about that. And UNRWA is very publicly, I would say, 0:19:07.970 --> 0:19:10.750 conservative when it comes to critiquing the Israeli government. So 0:19:10.770 --> 0:19:13.750 when you look at recent statements from organizations like Oxfam. 0:19:14.240 --> 0:19:18.640 Or even MSF, which typically really prioritized neutrality. Even they 0:19:18.700 --> 0:19:20.920 have been really willing to say now, you know, they've 0:19:21.020 --> 0:19:22.380 used words like genocide. 0:19:22.420 --> 0:19:23.230 This is ridiculous. 0:19:23.590 --> 0:19:25.030 Yes, this is ridiculous. 0:19:25.090 --> 0:19:28.090 This is a complete affront to the entire infrastructure of 0:19:28.130 --> 0:19:32.270 humanitarianism as we developed it after World War II. UNRWA 0:19:32.330 --> 0:19:34.670 is much more conservative with its statements. And again, it 0:19:35.090 --> 0:19:39.230 claims that its priority is access. It is the biggest 0:19:39.250 --> 0:19:42.290 service provider for health and education in the Gaza Strip, 0:19:42.350 --> 0:19:44.810 and it is one of the biggest in the West Bank. So, 0:19:45.410 --> 0:19:48.050 you know, it's this kind of catch-22 that the Palestinians 0:19:48.090 --> 0:19:51.310 that depend on those services are in. Now, as far 0:19:51.390 --> 0:19:54.359 as I know, because UNRWA is in the UN system, 0:19:54.390 --> 0:19:56.639 their argument is that they do not have to be 0:19:56.720 --> 0:19:59.800 subject to the same restrictions that Israel would place on 0:19:59.820 --> 0:20:06.260 non-UN humanitarian organizations. And recently we've seen other Israeli activities, 0:20:06.320 --> 0:20:09.440 such as they bulldozed the UNRWA headquarters in East Jerusalem. 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:10.820 Like they are trying. 0:20:11.000 --> 0:20:15.300 Both bureaucratically, administratively and physically to kind of remove this entity. 0:20:15.780 --> 0:20:18.270 But as far as I know, and things change very 0:20:18.310 --> 0:20:20.930 quickly on this, they did not comply with the new 0:20:21.030 --> 0:20:27.070 registration details. That said, they did really internalize these accusations 0:20:27.109 --> 0:20:29.510 that Israel had levied against them after October 7th. They 0:20:29.530 --> 0:20:33.160 did fire some staff. They, in the opinion of many, 0:20:33.369 --> 0:20:36.030 did not forcefully defend their staff as much as they 0:20:36.070 --> 0:20:39.310 could have. And when you talk to people that work 0:20:39.369 --> 0:20:43.389 with or work in UNRWA, again, they say, we are 0:20:43.430 --> 0:20:46.210 just trying to get through this period and maintain as 0:20:46.270 --> 0:20:49.109 much of an infrastructure as we can. And they have 0:20:49.150 --> 0:20:51.070 been through ups and downs before. I don't know if 0:20:51.090 --> 0:20:54.389 they've been through downs that are this down at any point. 0:20:54.830 --> 0:20:57.770 You know, the past, especially since the first Trump administration, 0:20:57.810 --> 0:21:01.580 we've seen really targeted attacks against UNRWA, which the Biden 0:21:01.600 --> 0:21:03.180 administration continued. 0:21:04.000 --> 0:21:05.140 But yes, it is. 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:10.110 Undoubtedly UNRWA is not as vocal in terms of defending 0:21:10.170 --> 0:21:13.770 its staff, in terms of making political proclamations, in terms 0:21:14.250 --> 0:21:16.970 of you know, just what we would kind of hope 0:21:17.270 --> 0:21:20.040 that one of the primary actors that is tasked with 0:21:20.180 --> 0:21:23.400 protecting a very vulnerable population would do. 0:21:23.420 --> 0:21:25.020 I mean, defending its own mandate. 0:21:25.400 --> 0:21:25.600 Right. 0:21:25.640 --> 0:21:26.639 Defending its own mandate. 0:21:26.720 --> 0:21:26.940 Right. 0:21:26.980 --> 0:21:27.930 To provide relief. 0:21:28.290 --> 0:21:31.500 And it's kind of, constantly and so much of the 0:21:31.540 --> 0:21:35.080 international community is kind of constantly playing by Israel's rules. 0:21:35.560 --> 0:21:37.939 Israel makes an accusation, makes a rule. 0:21:38.220 --> 0:21:41.100 And instead of being like that accusation is insane or 0:21:41.180 --> 0:21:44.889 this rule is based in nothing, people just start arguing about, well, 0:21:44.910 --> 0:21:46.470 how can we get against that rule or how do 0:21:46.490 --> 0:21:49.810 we defend against that accusation? And this has been the 0:21:49.869 --> 0:21:52.530 playbook for a really long time. I think UNRWA has 0:21:52.590 --> 0:21:56.020 not been very effective in defending against that. Again, I 0:21:56.060 --> 0:21:58.590 think they would probably argue that's not what we're supposed 0:21:58.609 --> 0:22:01.389 to do. There's supposed to be political entities that defend 0:22:01.450 --> 0:22:04.470 against that. And we have seen some of the funders 0:22:04.530 --> 0:22:09.010 that pulled funding initially after October 7th have reinstated funding. 0:22:09.570 --> 0:22:12.960 That said, UNRWA is in a very precarious position. And 0:22:13.260 --> 0:22:17.840 I and others are really interested in seeing in five years, 0:22:18.280 --> 0:22:20.919 what will UNRWA look like? Will it be an organization 0:22:20.960 --> 0:22:24.520 kind of in name only? You know, there's so much uncertainty, 0:22:24.600 --> 0:22:27.139 I think, coming up and they're a huge part of 0:22:27.180 --> 0:22:31.109 that because if their services go, we suddenly have hundreds 0:22:31.150 --> 0:22:35.330 of thousands of people with no school, no hospital, no clinics. 0:22:35.900 --> 0:22:38.640