Speaker 1: Ashamed of your body and guilty about everything related to sex?
Speaker 1: Would that be okay?
Speaker 2: Nobody would say yes, right? They had been off with
Speaker 2: the choice, right right.
Speaker 1: So like that stuff just got put in our brains
Speaker 1: and it's there, flourishing, flourishing.
Speaker 3: You know what we do here, destroy shame around sex
Speaker 3: by talking about sex. Now, let me tell you something messy. Hi,
Speaker 3: how are you? How's it going? How's your heart? If
Speaker 3: you're new to the pod, this is not how we
Speaker 3: usually start the show. And if you've been with me
Speaker 3: for a minute, you know that we always start with
Speaker 3: a messy story or we debunk a messy myth, and
Speaker 3: we do messy mail, and then we have our guests,
Speaker 3: and you know, I like to start the show off
Speaker 3: with a lot of joy and laughter and fun. And
Speaker 3: that's not how we're starting this episode because things have
Speaker 3: happened in the last week. I'm based in Los Angeles
Speaker 3: and so as you can imagine, the last week has
Speaker 3: been a nightmare. And that is putting it lightly. I
Speaker 3: do not think that I have cried or had this
Speaker 3: many breakdowns in my entire life that I have in
Speaker 3: the last week. So here's the deal. I'm not going
Speaker 3: to tell a messy story. Today, I'm just going to
Speaker 3: kind of introduce the interview because I also recognize that,
Speaker 3: you know, people tune into the show for a little
Speaker 3: bit of escape. You know, you know you want a
Speaker 3: little escape from what may be happening, or you know
Speaker 3: some of you might actually also be from Los Angeles.
Speaker 3: I have people in Los Angeles, and so I want
Speaker 3: to be conscious about not triggering as people are healing
Speaker 3: and navigating what's going on in our city and also
Speaker 3: in our country, in the world at large. So I
Speaker 3: will at the end of the pod, after Hose of Heart,
Speaker 3: I will talk about this experience what I can talk
Speaker 3: about so far and share with you how I'm doing
Speaker 3: and how we're doing, my partners and I and all
Speaker 3: the things that I have learned thus far with the
Speaker 3: caveat that it will be imperfect and messy and it
Speaker 3: will evolve over time, and I'm sure I will. You know,
Speaker 3: we're still in it as I As I am recording this,
Speaker 3: I'm recording this outside of LA because we decided to
Speaker 3: leave again because where our apartment is is a really
Speaker 3: prime zone for issues, if you will, So we decided
Speaker 3: to just best as more wins. We're coming in to
Speaker 3: get out the city. So as you can imagine, my
Speaker 3: emotions are all over the place. But the episode today
Speaker 3: is one that I record did a few months ago,
Speaker 3: and it means everything to me because it's with Emily Nagoski,
Speaker 3: who is the author of Come As You Are and
Speaker 3: is an incredible, incredible voice in this space of sex
Speaker 3: and identity and pleasure and somebody who I look up to.
Speaker 3: And the fact that she agreed to do the show,
Speaker 3: I mean, I can't tell you the ways in which
Speaker 3: we were, like me and my producer Vincent, and you know,
Speaker 3: we're just like so geeked out about it, and I've
Speaker 3: been talking about it. I think we reached out to
Speaker 3: her like last June, and we're finally able to record
Speaker 3: with her sometime in September, and so to finally be
Speaker 3: able to share it with you is just a dream
Speaker 3: come true. And so let's just how about we just
Speaker 3: how about we just go right into it and hopefully
Speaker 3: next week or if not next week, by the end
Speaker 3: of this month, the top of next month, we'll be
Speaker 3: back to our regular kind of openings and stuff. But
Speaker 3: you know, me, I really value acknowledging where we are
Speaker 3: individually and collectively and not trying to deny the emotions
Speaker 3: that are are are prevalent, not trying to numb it,
Speaker 3: but actually allow it to be. And so my choice
Speaker 3: to not try and come up with a messy story
Speaker 3: or even talk about a messy story because it just
Speaker 3: is not where my energy is is how I am
Speaker 3: taking care of myself and I hope taking care of
Speaker 3: you too, giving you space to feel how you feel,
Speaker 3: whether it's about the fires because you're experiencing it, or
Speaker 3: something else in your life. We do not have to
Speaker 3: Business as usual is not a thing. Okay, it's something
Speaker 3: that I reject, especially as the world continues to do
Speaker 3: so many things that are hard to witness and feel
Speaker 3: an experience. It is just business as usual, I think
Speaker 3: is harming us. And so let's acknowledge where we are
Speaker 3: and work from that place and be free from that place. So, uh,
Speaker 3: shall we jump into the interview? Baby? You know what
Speaker 3: that means. It is time for a guest. Now, while
Speaker 3: they get situated, we'll get our messy. Kiki started with
Speaker 3: a how manifesto repeat after me aloud or in your head.
Speaker 3: Grant me the serenity to unpack my shame, the courage
Speaker 3: to heal, the wisdom to that sex is not just
Speaker 3: about penetration, the audacity to advocate for my pleasure and boundaries,
Speaker 3: the strength to not call my ex that fuck boy,
Speaker 3: fuck girl, or fuck bay, for it is better to
Speaker 3: masturbate by myself in peace than to let someone play
Speaker 3: in my mother fuck face. Let the community say, oh helujah,
Speaker 3: I am so excited to have Emily Nagowski on the show.
Speaker 3: Emily Nagoski is the award winning author of the New
Speaker 3: York Times best selling Come As You Are and Come Together,
Speaker 3: as well as the Come As You Are Workbook, and
Speaker 3: co author with her sister Amelia, of the New York
Speaker 3: Times bestseller Burnout, The Secret to Unlocking the Stress Cycle.
Speaker 3: She earned an MS in Counseling and a PhD in
Speaker 3: Health behavior, both from Indiana University, with clinical and research
Speaker 3: training at the Kinsey Institute. Now, she combines sex education
Speaker 3: and stress education to teach women to live with confidence
Speaker 3: and joy inside their bodies. She lives in Massachusetts with
Speaker 3: two dogs, a cat, and a cartoonist. Y'all please make
Speaker 3: some noise for Emily Nagoski. Welcome, Emily.
Speaker 1: Hello, I'm so excited to be talking to you.
Speaker 3: I'm so like, literally, I was selling you before we
Speaker 3: start that I've been listening to you the audible and
Speaker 3: so you've been in my head and I'm just i
Speaker 3: might have a melt down talking to you now because
Speaker 3: I'm just so excited. I also, I like, just got
Speaker 3: a haircut. I tell my barber, I was like, you
Speaker 3: have to read this book. I think that everyone has
Speaker 3: to read this book. I don't like, I know that
Speaker 3: the book really and we'll talk about this everybody. We'll
Speaker 3: get into it. It centers around women, but I just
Speaker 3: feel like everybody should be reading. Come as you are
Speaker 3: and come together because the information is invaluable. So thank
Speaker 3: you for writing it first and force so much. Yeah,
Speaker 3: all right, So before we get started, we have a
Speaker 3: couple what we call our messy mandates, so things get
Speaker 3: to be unprocessed. Any thoughts or opinions shared have the
Speaker 3: right to shift or change today, tomorrow or ten years
Speaker 3: from now. And if during our little messy key key
Speaker 3: something feels too personal or unintentionally offends, we use the
Speaker 3: safe word foosball, which will give us a second or
Speaker 3: a chance to pivot or a jest or addressed accordingly.
Speaker 3: Sound good, sounds great? Beautiful. Want to start with a lube.
Speaker 3: It's like an icebreaker. But you know, absolutely all right,
Speaker 3: So let's play a game of fuck Mary or block.
Speaker 3: We don't kill here, we just do the blocking. Okay,
Speaker 3: So fuck Mary or block? Verbal play, food play, nipple play.
Speaker 1: You know I'm a writer, it's gonna be verbal play
Speaker 1: is married.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I would.
Speaker 1: I would totally food play, which yes, nothing against nipples,
Speaker 1: yeah yeah, if but I could live without it?
Speaker 3: Oh could I live without nipples? I mean, I love
Speaker 3: my I love God, I love a pair of nipples,
Speaker 3: and I love having my nipples played with. But I
Speaker 3: also need to hear, like you gotta talk to me.
Speaker 3: So I'm gonna I'm a writer as well, so I'm
Speaker 3: a verbal I'm gonna marry the verbal. I'm going to
Speaker 3: nipples or food. Nipples are food.
Speaker 1: I love food and food is so fun to play with.
Speaker 3: I see, I don't have as much experience playing with
Speaker 3: the food, and this is what I need to get into.
Speaker 3: So for the for the sheer fact that I don't
Speaker 3: have as much experience playing with food, I'll block it
Speaker 3: because I know that I know what are good to me.
Speaker 3: I know nipples are good to me. All fucked the nipples.
Speaker 3: But I do want to get into what how does
Speaker 3: one introduce themselves to food play? Like, what is the
Speaker 3: best way to start? I was talking to Taylor Tomlinson
Speaker 3: and we were talking about do you start with like
Speaker 3: mac and che Well, somebody actually wrote in and said
Speaker 3: they ate ice cream out of somebody's booty hole and
Speaker 3: we were like, wow, that sounds exciting and messy.
Speaker 1: It's not where I would start.
Speaker 3: Okay, t got it. Would you start?
Speaker 1: So, like, you start somewhere where you're not going to
Speaker 1: be challenged? Uh huh? And anal stuff is a challenge
Speaker 1: for a lot of people. If you don't feel comfortable
Speaker 1: around food, you may not feel comfortable around butts. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so start with uh, non genital.
Speaker 3: Locations for the food, Okay.
Speaker 1: And also start with food. One of the reasons I
Speaker 1: think ice cream is actually good is that you've got
Speaker 1: temperature that you can play with, and if you're a student,
Speaker 1: temperature play, ice cream is great for that. You can
Speaker 1: also do temperature play with things that are warm. Don't
Speaker 1: go too sticky, though, so like hot fudge, real sticky,
Speaker 1: difficult to clean up, leaves you feeling regret because of
Speaker 1: how much laundry.
Speaker 3: There is, Yes, that does sound I know my brain
Speaker 3: is already like, where's the detergent? That's so much?
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's a lot of laundry involved in food play.
Speaker 1: So you want to start with something that is not
Speaker 1: quite so like literally messy.
Speaker 3: I love that. Learn something new, okay, last one? Fuck Mary,
Speaker 3: block spanking, hair pulling, biting.
Speaker 1: This is so complicated because like biting, where which hair?
Speaker 3: Yes? Yes, fair which hair? Okay? Spanking and can they spank? Well,
Speaker 3: it's your most ideal, it's your the best spanker. It's
Speaker 3: wherever you want the hair to be. Best situation, yes, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: the best version of the situation, the most pleasurable version
Speaker 3: of it.
Speaker 1: Again, the stakes are so high. What if I get
Speaker 1: it wrong?
Speaker 3: Oh my god, please don't this up.
Speaker 1: Okay, I would probably, I would probably since it's the
Speaker 1: one I forgot. I would probably block biting, okay, probably
Speaker 1: fuck hair pulling and Mary spanking.
Speaker 3: Ooh, I actually think I'm the same with you. I
Speaker 3: would marry spanking. I would fuck hair pulling because you
Speaker 3: have to do it right. And I would block the
Speaker 3: biting only because I don't know I've experienced it, but
Speaker 3: like I haven't experienced it to the to the degree
Speaker 3: that I know that some people experience pleasure from.
Speaker 1: It because it leaves a mark.
Speaker 3: That's fair. That's fair. And people don't even know what
Speaker 3: you're doing.
Speaker 1: I went through piggys when I was in high school,
Speaker 1: and you're like.
Speaker 3: I don't need to we don't need to know, we
Speaker 3: don't need to know. Hey, Emily, you won the game.
Speaker 3: You won, you got an A plus and you win
Speaker 3: my unconditional love. It is really the stakes are high,
Speaker 3: but the rewards are higher. Do you know.
Speaker 1: You know what? Just a gold star is all I need?
Speaker 3: Just a gold stars. I'm sending you a scratch and
Speaker 3: sniffstick car because those were the fuzzy texture. They're the best.
Speaker 3: Ye they're the best, y'all. If you're listening, you are listening, obviously, Phileas.
Speaker 3: Feel free to send your blue breaker prompt or messy
Speaker 3: stories to tell me something messy at gmail dot com.
Speaker 3: Speaking of which, Emily, can you tell me something messy?
Speaker 1: Okay? So, one of the things I talk about a
Speaker 1: lot is that there's a difference between dealing with the
Speaker 1: stress in your body and solving the problem that caused
Speaker 1: the stress in the first place, Like the stress is physiological.
Speaker 1: You have to do something with your body in order
Speaker 1: to process the stress, to transition out of the stress
Speaker 1: state into a relaxation state, which is almost always going
Speaker 1: to be different from the thing that you do to
Speaker 1: solve the problem that activated the stress in the first place. So,
Speaker 1: for example, if you are at work and your boss
Speaker 1: says something that like activates your stress response, where you
Speaker 1: want to like reach across the desk and throttle that person, Like,
Speaker 1: You're not going to do that. You're going to behave yourself.
Speaker 1: You're going to say thank you, thank you so much
Speaker 1: for that feedback, and then and then you're going to
Speaker 1: go for a run, or lift weights or just like
Speaker 1: jump up and down in the parking lot and do
Speaker 1: a primal scream. Right, Yes, So that's the difference between
Speaker 1: dealing with the problem versus dealing with the stress. Crying
Speaker 1: is another example of like a thing that like it
Speaker 1: doesn't solve the problem, but it can absolutely deal with
Speaker 1: the stress in your body so that you feel well
Speaker 1: enough to be able to deal with the problem itself.
Speaker 1: All of this is to set up that there has
Speaker 1: in my life been a circumstance where crying absolutely was
Speaker 1: the necessary part of the solution, and it is. This
Speaker 1: was more than twe years ago. I was in grad
Speaker 1: school and I was with someone who, uh it would
Speaker 1: I would learn later, was still in love with their ex.
Speaker 1: And their ex I knew she's this wonderful person that
Speaker 1: had apparently done a really good job of training this
Speaker 1: man in oral sex. Turns out this person who are like,
Speaker 1: I really liked this this I knew the ex enjoyed
Speaker 1: her as a person. But it turns out that what
Speaker 1: she likes with oral sex and what I like with
Speaker 1: oral sex are basically opposite.
Speaker 3: God, not the same. Not the same, got it?
Speaker 1: Yeah? And so this partner, who has been well trained
Speaker 1: by the X, continues to do to me what he
Speaker 1: was trained to do with hard And as I came
Speaker 1: to understand this, I did all the like grown up,
Speaker 1: I've been a sex educator for ten years. Stuff that
Speaker 1: you do to like, try to communicate effectively about what
Speaker 1: I want and like, Like I am skilled at communicating
Speaker 1: in a wide variety of ways about what I want
Speaker 1: and like both like in an encouraging way in the
Speaker 1: middle of it, and like later on, like, hey, so
Speaker 1: when you did that thing I've said before that what
Speaker 1: I really like, is this kind of sensation And I
Speaker 1: know that when you do this, I know that, like,
Speaker 1: your previous partner really liked this other kind of sensation
Speaker 1: and that's not it for me. And it gradually got
Speaker 1: to like and when you continue to do it that way,
Speaker 1: it makes me feel like you wish you were or
Speaker 1: you imagine you are still in bed with this other person.
Speaker 1: And I eventually had to cry in the middle of
Speaker 1: oral sex in order to communicate in a way that
Speaker 1: this person could hear that what they were doing made
Speaker 1: me feel like they were not having sex with me,
Speaker 1: they were having sex with somebody.
Speaker 3: To me.
Speaker 1: So almost always, my advice is that, like, crying is
Speaker 1: not effective and helpful, but sometimes sometimes crying he was
Speaker 1: effective and helpful, And like, I want to be a
Speaker 1: person who has never had to cry in order to
Speaker 1: like get the oral sex I want.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, but that is not the life I've lived.
Speaker 3: So did it change? Did it get better? It?
Speaker 1: Did it worked?
Speaker 3: Wow?
Speaker 1: I got rewarded.
Speaker 3: You catch a reward. You've tried all the tactics, and
Speaker 3: the final tactic was the crying, which.
Speaker 1: I didn't want to do because it felt manipulative. Because
Speaker 1: I was able not to cry, but I was like
Speaker 1: fighting tears and I was like, you know what.
Speaker 3: Fuck this, fuckett, let this release it. I'm not going
Speaker 3: to release the stress.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm gonna release the stress. It's going to impact him.
Speaker 1: And uh like he may feel manipulated, but like I
Speaker 1: have had, this has been weeks.
Speaker 3: Yes, listen, have you tried all the tactics and then
Speaker 3: you're like it's not working? Then I feel like you
Speaker 3: pull out the red card, the cry card, that's right,
Speaker 3: and make it happen. Wait have you ever have you
Speaker 3: cried during sex in a you know, transformative transformation? Yeah?
Speaker 1: So many times?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, what happened the first time? Because I only
Speaker 3: experienced that for the first time a couple of years ago,
Speaker 3: and I remember, like it was with my husband, and
Speaker 3: I remember like being so confused by it because I
Speaker 3: didn't know that you could crush because I associate crying
Speaker 3: with bad things or hav any and the sad things
Speaker 3: or have stress. Yes, so crying during like sex was
Speaker 3: just like, wait, what what are all these emotions? Did
Speaker 3: when it happened for you? Did you understand that it
Speaker 3: was possible to cry during sex or was it a
Speaker 3: new sensation or what was the experience.
Speaker 1: I am extra sensitive to my body sensations, so I
Speaker 1: have had a meditation practice since I was fifteen. I'm
Speaker 1: like super connected and engaged with my own body and
Speaker 1: its sensations and emotions, and I have a really non
Speaker 1: judgmental approach to all of my internal experiences.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so which helped.
Speaker 1: Boy, you want to have great sex, and meditation practice
Speaker 1: completely helps with.
Speaker 3: That agreed agreat. Guess. Yeah.
Speaker 1: It supper helps because it means that you can be
Speaker 1: aware of the sensations happening in your body, can be
Speaker 1: aware of what's going on with your partner. You can
Speaker 1: tune in really finely and deeply to what's going on
Speaker 1: with your partner. Yeah, which is like that fine tune
Speaker 1: attention to your partners. How you get to simultaneous orgasms,
Speaker 1: which isn't like a goal anybody needs to have, but
Speaker 1: it sure is fun. Yes, And that is the circumstance
Speaker 1: where I had my first like crying orgasm, like ugly,
Speaker 1: not dripping, like mid orgasm, just like wrapping every limb
Speaker 1: I have around my partner and like he's sobbing too.
Speaker 1: And I was nineteen what yeah, wow, yeah, wow.
Speaker 3: You were able to have that kind of moment at
Speaker 3: nineteen Yeah.
Speaker 1: Years of a regular meditation practice in Wow, and this
Speaker 1: is only my second partner.
Speaker 3: That's incredible.
Speaker 1: Let me say that my first partner was like abusive
Speaker 1: and terrible. Yeah, so I learned fast. By the time
Speaker 1: I got to my second partner, I was like solving
Speaker 1: orgasm quality. Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, abusive partners. Will you know I was in before
Speaker 3: my husband. I was in an emotional abusive relationship for
Speaker 3: about two years. And one thing I will say is
Speaker 3: when you maybe it's not true all the time, but
Speaker 3: like when you are out of that, when you find
Speaker 3: your way out of that, you get tuned in real quick.
Speaker 3: We had like the Spidey senses out of I think
Speaker 3: defense and protection, but the Spidey senses really raise up
Speaker 3: because you're like, oh, I'm not trying to repeat that again,
Speaker 3: and it makes you have to think. I think it
Speaker 3: made me curious about who I am and what my
Speaker 3: body does and what my what my personhood does. It
Speaker 3: just made me have to be far more curious because
Speaker 3: it was like, oh, I found myself dependent on this
Speaker 3: person in a way that I don't want to ever
Speaker 3: be dependent again. And so it just like I don't know,
Speaker 3: it forces you to reflect and for better or worse,
Speaker 3: I think get in touch with your body, which that
Speaker 3: yeah makes And yet it.
Speaker 1: Was more than thirty years ago for me and my
Speaker 1: uh predator radar. Yeah, Like I mean I can tell
Speaker 1: from seeing somebody on television.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like, oh it's not a good person. Yeah you can.
Speaker 3: It's funny, you can. You can smell it, Like once
Speaker 3: you're tuned in, You're.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, once you have the like tingly spidy sense,
Speaker 1: like you said, like, it doesn't go away, because how's
Speaker 1: it one trial learning? Like, once you have the experience
Speaker 1: once and you recognize it for what it is, and
Speaker 1: you're like, I'm never gonna get in that position ever again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: once you get there, like from a distance, you can
Speaker 1: spot that person so that you never get so close
Speaker 1: that you get pulled in again.
Speaker 3: I couldn't agree more. You know what this makes me
Speaker 3: want to actually zoom out a little bit, which is
Speaker 3: you've had this transfer the transformational crime sex at nineteen,
Speaker 3: You've written this fantastic book that, by the way I
Speaker 3: do this thing on this podcast came out of me
Speaker 3: doing this Instagram series called Messy Wendays where I would
Speaker 3: tell people to tell me something good or messy, And
Speaker 3: so we were just always talking about sex every Monday
Speaker 3: on Instagram and your book would be one of the
Speaker 3: books that would constantly come up and people are like,
Speaker 3: oh my god, you have to read it. Come as
Speaker 3: you are, because the whole thing was no judgment, no shame.
Speaker 3: How do we talk about our bodies without judgment, without shame?
Speaker 3: And you do such an incredible job in your book
Speaker 3: of approaching that not just saying don't be judgmental, but
Speaker 3: this is how you do it. But I guess I'm
Speaker 3: curious how you even decided to write a book and
Speaker 3: liberate people to themselves. Like, what was it that happened
Speaker 3: for you that was like, Oh, this information needs to
Speaker 3: get out there. People need to know their bodies.
Speaker 1: So I'm born and raised in Delaware, which here's my
Speaker 1: actual humble brag. Delaware is such a small state that
Speaker 1: my tenth grade English teacher was doctor Jill Biden.
Speaker 3: Whoa because okay, wow.
Speaker 1: So so I was a big old nerd. I was
Speaker 1: like honors classes and all that stuff. And I knew
Speaker 1: when I got to college, went to University of Delaware,
Speaker 1: that I was going to be going to grad school
Speaker 1: though I had no idea for what. So I knew
Speaker 1: I needed some volunteer work on my resume to look
Speaker 1: like a good candidate for grad school. And a guy
Speaker 1: on my floor was pre med and he said, come
Speaker 1: be a pure health educator with me. And I was like,
Speaker 1: I like health, why not? So I did. I got
Speaker 1: trained to go into residence halls to talk about condom's
Speaker 1: contraception and consent. And I should say, like, this is
Speaker 1: my first year in college. I'm eighteen, So at the
Speaker 1: same time that I'm being trained to talk about these ideas,
Speaker 1: this is the same time that I'm having this abusive
Speaker 1: relationship the first year in college, which maybe I should
Speaker 1: attribute part of why my second relationship was so vastly
Speaker 1: much better is because I had the good fortune of
Speaker 1: being formally trained in like sex education and communication skills.
Speaker 1: Right with one year of that training under my belt,
Speaker 1: I was already much better at identifying good dynamics and
Speaker 1: communicating effectively and allowing myself to be in connection during
Speaker 1: a sexual experience. So I started my training as a
Speaker 1: sex educator like as soon as I got to college,
Speaker 1: I got a master's degree in counseling psychology. I started
Speaker 1: that thinking I would be a sex therapist, realized about
Speaker 1: halfway through, I do not have the magical thing that
Speaker 1: some people have to sit with clients and be.
Speaker 3: Like, yeah, what is that like for you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I am a woman who likes to be
Speaker 1: in charge of things. And so I stayed in school
Speaker 1: and got a PhD in public health, concentrating in all
Speaker 1: of these in human sexuality. Uh So, my got a
Speaker 1: job at Smith College as the director of Wellness Education,
Speaker 1: where I taught a class called Women's Sexuality. The first
Speaker 1: semester that I taught that class was very intense, and
Speaker 1: my last question on the final exam was just tell
Speaker 1: me one important thing you learned. It can be anything
Speaker 1: at all. Just take the question seriously and you will
Speaker 1: get the two points. Because they, like me, really took
Speaker 1: it seriously and they needed the points.
Speaker 3: They wanted to go star my age right.
Speaker 1: And I thought they were going to write things like, oh,
Speaker 1: some specific piece of the science like arousalkno concordance. They
Speaker 1: were going to write about attachment theory or whatever. And instead,
Speaker 1: out of one hundred and eighty seven students, more than
Speaker 1: half of them wrote, I learned I'm normal. I'm normal,
Speaker 1: I'm not broken. There's nothing wrong with me just because
Speaker 1: I'm different from other people. I can trust my body
Speaker 1: because I know I'm normal. I don't know if you've
Speaker 1: ever graded final exams, but it is not usually like this.
Speaker 1: I was sitting in my office grading with tears in
Speaker 1: my eyes.
Speaker 3: I was going to say, you gotta cry when you
Speaker 3: read that.
Speaker 1: Yeah. It was overwhelming, and I wanted to do it again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I wanted to do it at a larger scale
Speaker 1: and in a way that could reach people who were
Speaker 1: not at Smith College.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: And that's the day I decided to come as you
Speaker 1: are four and a half years later.
Speaker 3: I have chills hearing that, because I think that that
Speaker 3: is why why I'm screaming your book to anyone who
Speaker 3: will And you don't need my help, like I know
Speaker 3: a lot of people have it, but the additional additional people,
Speaker 3: especially you know, queer folks men. I'm like, everybody, read
Speaker 3: this book because you will learn that you're normal. Because
Speaker 3: I think the thing that I've experienced in doing this
Speaker 3: work is people feel like they are alone or that
Speaker 3: they are the suffering is that they feel like they
Speaker 3: should be something that they're not. And at the end
Speaker 3: of your book, you which I've been saying for the
Speaker 3: last couple of days to anyone who will listen, is
Speaker 3: about the map versus the terrain. Yeah, because that felt
Speaker 3: so important to me. And will you actually talk about
Speaker 3: that concept. I'll let you break it down for the listeners.
Speaker 1: Sure. So a map is a portrait or an image
Speaker 1: or a representation of something that actually exists. And if
Speaker 1: you're following a map, like if you're walking along a
Speaker 1: trail through a forest, following the trail on the forest,
Speaker 1: and the trail goes away in front of you, and
Speaker 1: you're like, but it says in the map it's right here.
Speaker 1: You can either decide that like, the map is wrong,
Speaker 1: that's not where the trail is and you're gonna need
Speaker 1: to find a different path. Or you can be like, no, no, no,
Speaker 1: the trail must be here, And so you're like tramping through, struggling,
Speaker 1: getting more and more lost because you believe it. Surely,
Speaker 1: if the choice is between the map being wrong and
Speaker 1: you being wrong, I must be wrong. The map must
Speaker 1: be right. It must be me that's wrong and broken,
Speaker 1: and like the map says the trail is here, the
Speaker 1: map must be right, and there's something wrong with me.
Speaker 1: Every single time you have a script. If you have
Speaker 1: a script in your head about who you're supposed to
Speaker 1: be as a sexual person, what sex is supposed to
Speaker 1: feel like for you, who your partner is supposed to be,
Speaker 1: or what your relationships are supposed to be like if
Speaker 1: there's a breakdown between the map you have in your
Speaker 1: head and what's actually true for you, what's actually true
Speaker 1: for you is what's correct, and the map is fucking
Speaker 1: wrong every time.
Speaker 3: Yeah, like realizing the map is wrong and you don't
Speaker 3: have to fit the map, like trust the terrain, trust
Speaker 3: your experience, trust that if something feels off or something
Speaker 3: feels good like that is that's what's right, not what
Speaker 3: you've been told you should you should be, or want
Speaker 3: or desire. And I think that that's so liberating. And
Speaker 3: the reason I think your book is also c liberating
Speaker 3: is because for me, on my sexual journey, it's been
Speaker 3: having to accept who I am and accept that I
Speaker 3: do not respond in the ways that maybe my partners
Speaker 3: do or in the way that gay men have and like,
Speaker 3: and I've felt like, well, I'm just marching to my
Speaker 3: own drum, and your book really just actually affirmed all
Speaker 3: of it. And so there was there was like a
Speaker 3: breath because it's like, oh, I'm just like you know,
Speaker 3: how fuck ever, fuck what everybody else says, and I'm
Speaker 3: just being me and like this is how I like
Speaker 3: sex and whatever. But then to have your book be
Speaker 3: like no, scientifically, yeah you're yeah, fuck what everybody else says.
Speaker 1: And they change across their lifespan.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, it's it was so liberating. I'm wondering, like,
Speaker 3: what is maybe the most most is ah won't be
Speaker 3: the right word, but what are what are some moments
Speaker 3: or some interactions with readers that you've had that have
Speaker 3: really kind of been long lasting and touching for you?
Speaker 1: Oh? So many. I did an event in Boston where
Speaker 1: a woman in her seventies told me that a few
Speaker 1: weeks ago she had had her first orgasm. Oh wow,
Speaker 1: So I it's official. It's never too late.
Speaker 3: It's never too late. I please say that again because
Speaker 3: I need because I need people to hear this. It's
Speaker 3: never too.
Speaker 1: Late literally literally until you're actually dead. It's never too late.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And everybody, everybody, regardless of the age of your body,
Speaker 1: regardless of the shape, size, structure ability of your body,
Speaker 1: everybody deserves access to to ecstatic pleasure. And has the
Speaker 1: capacity to access ecstatic pleasure.
Speaker 3: Everybody, like, what's the first step towards you're on your
Speaker 3: path to ecstatic pleasure? If somebody's listening to like, I
Speaker 3: don't know what I'm doing, what's that first time.
Speaker 1: I'm gonna say, it's gonna like even I would be
Speaker 1: pissed off with this answer.
Speaker 3: Okay, everyone braced yourself.
Speaker 1: Mindfulness, mindfulness, fucking mindfulness practice, I know. So what I
Speaker 1: really mean is learning to be non judgmentally aware of
Speaker 1: your own internal experience. Because chances are, unless you were
Speaker 1: raised in some extraordinary place that I have never been
Speaker 1: to or heard of, you were raised in a way
Speaker 1: that taught you to feel judgmental and ashamed of a
Speaker 1: whole lot of your internal experience. And becoming aware first
Speaker 1: of all of the experience itself, and then becoming aware
Speaker 1: of the judgment your brain imposes on those experiences, yeah,
Speaker 1: is a necessary first step to making a choice about
Speaker 1: whether or not you want to keep those judgments or
Speaker 1: if you want to swap them out for a non judgmental, accepting,
Speaker 1: or even loving attitude toward your internal experience.
Speaker 3: When you put it like that, it feels I know,
Speaker 3: it's not simple, but it does feel far simpler because
Speaker 3: it's like, what story do you want to choose to believe? Yeah,
Speaker 3: we're forced. There's so many stories forced onto us about
Speaker 3: our bodies and our experiences and what they should be
Speaker 3: and shoulds and shouldn'ts and this and that and you
Speaker 3: should be like that and not like that, and we've
Speaker 3: chosen to believe it, you know, by default. And so
Speaker 3: I think there's the mindfulness is waking up and saying, well,
Speaker 3: which stories have I chosen to adopt about my body,
Speaker 3: about my pleasure? And can I, as you said, swap
Speaker 3: them out? And can I choose something else? Can I
Speaker 3: choose something softer?
Speaker 1: And I think it's not a choice until you have
Speaker 1: the awareness because like these ideas, it's not like somebody
Speaker 1: waited until you were old enough to understand before they asked, like, hey,
Speaker 1: would be okay with you if I taught you to
Speaker 1: feel ashamed of your body and guilty about everything related
Speaker 1: to sex, would that be okay? Nobody would say yes?
Speaker 3: Right?
Speaker 2: They had been off with the choice, right, right, So.
Speaker 1: Like that stuff just got put in our brains and
Speaker 1: it's there, flourishing, flourishing, and until we recognize that it's there,
Speaker 1: then we have a choice. Yes, oh this the like this,
Speaker 1: like self hatred I've been experiencing all these years. That's
Speaker 1: not something I have to feel.
Speaker 3: That's a key component, like to even recognize that you
Speaker 3: are experiencing that before you can make the shift.
Speaker 1: That there is a different experience that's available if you
Speaker 1: are interested in trying out something new.
Speaker 3: It's being radically honest with yourself about how you feel
Speaker 3: about yourself, which is a scary thing to do. Right.
Speaker 3: If I think about years before mindfulness or the pursuit
Speaker 3: of self love, there's a lot of sadness at how
Speaker 3: I thought about myself. Yes, a lot of you know, oof,
Speaker 3: like the years, the years, the decades of beating down
Speaker 3: on myself. And in the.
Speaker 1: Business world they call it opportunity cost. Yes, like all
Speaker 1: the things you could have had if you hadn't spent
Speaker 1: all those years beating the shit out of yourself. Yes,
Speaker 1: Like all the pain you could have avoided. It's actually
Speaker 1: one of the key ingredients in hateful people is that
Speaker 1: they hate themselves. They're totally married to the idea that
Speaker 1: they deserve to be hated for those things. And so
Speaker 1: to see someone who walks around the world loving themselves
Speaker 1: for having this trait. Wow, that the hateful person.
Speaker 2: Believes they deserve to be hated for, Like.
Speaker 1: How fucking dare you? I have to actually eliminate your existence.
Speaker 1: I have to shame and judge you in public so
Speaker 1: that everybody knows that I understand that that is shameful
Speaker 1: and no one should be like that. And either I'm
Speaker 1: gonna hide it if it's something that can be hidden,
Speaker 1: or I'm going to like advertise that I know that
Speaker 1: this thing that I cannot hide about myself is shameful,
Speaker 1: like I already know, so, like you don't have to
Speaker 1: judge me or beat me up because I'm like the
Speaker 1: thing I'm thinking about is fatness. Like I'm a good
Speaker 1: fat I'm exercising and I am eating a salad, And
Speaker 1: you don't need to judge in shame me, because trust me,
Speaker 1: I already judge in shame myself. And that's why I'm
Speaker 1: gonna judge in shame and excoriate all the fat people
Speaker 1: walking around the world who love themselves. I cannot tolerate
Speaker 1: the idea that this is this is me in the
Speaker 1: voice of a person who hates themselves. I cannot tolerate
Speaker 1: the idea that they're is an alternative world where I'm
Speaker 1: allowed to exist and be kind to myself and experience
Speaker 1: pleasure and joy in a body that I have been
Speaker 1: judging and beating up for decades. Yeah, does that make sense?
Speaker 3: It absolutely makes sense. The hatred has so much of
Speaker 3: a how dare you? Yes? But really what you're mad
Speaker 3: at is is the liberation, because it's like, well, I've lost, Yes,
Speaker 3: I've lost this many years fighting myself over having this
Speaker 3: body or whatever. This is how dare you love yourself
Speaker 3: and be so free?
Speaker 2: Dare you be free?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 1: I cannot allow you to be free because then my
Speaker 1: cage that I have built around myself is I've been
Speaker 1: trapped all this time and I could have been free.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, I trap myself in this cage, and that's it.
Speaker 3: That's a Well, Interestingly, maybe.
Speaker 1: I want to like not have it be too individualistic,
Speaker 1: because like, let's see that the world puts you in
Speaker 1: that case.
Speaker 3: That's what I'm saying. The world puts you in the
Speaker 3: case you can get out exactly. It's that that's the key, Like,
Speaker 3: the world puts you in the cage. But did you
Speaker 3: lock yourself in? At what point did you lock yourself
Speaker 3: in that cage and say Okay, this is where I'm at,
Speaker 3: and everybody needs to be in their cage, as opposed
Speaker 3: to seeing people free and go oh, I can get
Speaker 3: free too. Yes, again, which story are you choosing to pick?
Speaker 3: It's such a fascinating it's but it's difficult because it
Speaker 3: requires and I think that this is just a societal
Speaker 3: thing and a cultural thing. We have a hard time
Speaker 3: one holding space for multiple truths. We have a hard
Speaker 3: time grieving and mourning. And so there's there's a level
Speaker 3: which I think you do so beautifully in the book
Speaker 3: where you say I'm so sorry that the world told
Speaker 3: you these things, And so there is a grief and
Speaker 3: a mourning for the time lost that you spent beating
Speaker 3: yourself up or ignoring yourself or not going places because
Speaker 3: you felt like you were.
Speaker 1: We're not having access to like simple basic truths about
Speaker 1: like what's true about like sexual bodies, what's true about tunitles,
Speaker 1: what's true about how our brain processes sexual information? Like
Speaker 1: of course people feel shitty if they don't have access
Speaker 1: to basic information and the idea that they are allowed
Speaker 1: that who they are as a sexual person is someone
Speaker 1: worth being.
Speaker 3: Who they are as. A sexual person is someone worth
Speaker 3: being who can I sit in this for a second
Speaker 3: with you? Yeah, that is revolutionary if you can get there,
Speaker 3: like if you can feel that, Yeah, that is revolutionary.
Speaker 3: Because I think that I don't know if this will
Speaker 3: make sense, but sometimes when I think about Pride parades,
Speaker 3: there can be an energy of fuck you, I'm here
Speaker 3: when I go to Pride here in America, And then
Speaker 3: I went to Pride in Amsterdam years ago and it
Speaker 3: was a celebration. It was like, oh, we have a
Speaker 3: right to exist. And there's a slight difference. One is
Speaker 3: a fight and a fuck you middle fingers up, I'm here,
Speaker 3: Which there's a validity to that, and there's this a
Speaker 3: necessity to it. But if you're able to get to
Speaker 3: the space where you know you know, you know, you know,
Speaker 3: you know that you belong and that you deserve to exist,
Speaker 3: it's a softer way of existing. It's a softer way
Speaker 3: of moving. And I think that that is my hope
Speaker 3: for anybody on their sexual journey is to know that
Speaker 3: they that they deserve to exist, that who they are
Speaker 3: sexually and how they want to exist sexually is a
Speaker 3: beautiful thing, and that they are normal Ultimately, when I.
Speaker 1: Was in my graduate program, I had like a multicultural
Speaker 1: counseling class, and the semester long project was to identify
Speaker 1: the population you would struggle the most to work with
Speaker 1: that you have the most sort of like internalized bias toward,
Speaker 1: and like work on that, try and undo your bias.
Speaker 1: And it was the fall of two thousand and one
Speaker 1: and I was in Indiana and the population I struggled
Speaker 1: most to work with was religious fundamentalists of all kinds.
Speaker 1: And so one of the people I talked to was
Speaker 1: the head of the Episcopalian church on Main Street in
Speaker 1: blooming To, Indiana, And I was like, so, what do
Speaker 1: you do with the rage though? And this so she's
Speaker 1: a lesbian minister in Indiana in the early two thousands,
Speaker 1: and we're sitting outside a coffee shop on a beautiful
Speaker 1: October day, one month after nine to eleven, and she
Speaker 1: just like sits back in her chair and lets her
Speaker 1: whole body soften. It was you using the word soften
Speaker 1: that made me think of this story. Yeah, And she
Speaker 1: just says, you take up one hundred percent of the
Speaker 1: space that you take up and acknowledge that you are
Speaker 1: entitled to one hundred percent of the space that you
Speaker 1: take up and no one's going to take it away
Speaker 1: from you no matter what happens. This is the space
Speaker 1: that you take up.
Speaker 3: On my best day. That's how I would like to live. Yeah,
Speaker 3: me too, do you know? On my best day? And
Speaker 3: I know that it's imperfect, But like they're there, that messaging, Emily,
Speaker 3: that that old school messaging, even at you know, the
Speaker 3: thirty seven. Even what I might, I can argue that
Speaker 3: I have a solid ten to fifteen years of like
Speaker 3: this journey towards seth love under my belt. It's still
Speaker 3: like a solid six or seven years of this like
Speaker 3: oh journey and sexual liberation under my belt. And still
Speaker 3: there is sometimes an effort that that I have to
Speaker 3: pull on to allow myself to take up space, a
Speaker 3: choice to be like I can take this space, this
Speaker 3: space is mine. I can show up as myself. But
Speaker 3: the messaging or the like the the I would say,
Speaker 3: it's like updating the operating system. And so there is
Speaker 3: an old operating system that sometimes comes in and goes smaller. No,
Speaker 3: not like that, you shouldn't do that, and having to
Speaker 3: fight with that operate yes, yes, quiet don't them, don't
Speaker 3: let them see you and having to push against that
Speaker 3: and be like no, no, I belong here and I'm
Speaker 3: worthy of being here. I can't say enough to read
Speaker 3: your book and tell everyone to read it. You know,
Speaker 3: there are plenty of interviews and things that you've done
Speaker 3: to talk about breaks and accelerators and responsive, so I
Speaker 3: know people can find it.
Speaker 1: It has actually been totally thrilling to have an interview
Speaker 1: where it's like, this is the story of my life.
Speaker 1: I will spend the next thirty years of my life
Speaker 1: talking about responsive desire, arous on non concordance and the
Speaker 1: dual control model and that's just real and I accept them.
Speaker 1: So it has been like super fun to just be
Speaker 1: like just like the experience of living in the world
Speaker 1: as a sexual person.
Speaker 3: Yes, and that's what I wanted. That's what I wanted
Speaker 3: to create the space for because it like a gift
Speaker 3: to me. Oh, I'm so glad because I was like,
Speaker 3: I know that she's spoken out the ass ye and
Speaker 3: like we can just offer something different.
Speaker 1: Oh, I feel so safe.
Speaker 3: Yeah, thank you so much, Emily. This is incredible. I
Speaker 3: really appreciate it.
Speaker 1: My pleasure.
Speaker 3: Well, you know, we are hose here, but hose with heart.
Speaker 3: So before we go, let me speak to yours. I
Speaker 3: hope that you were geeking out through this interview as
Speaker 3: much as I am. I hope you had some oh moments,
Speaker 3: some big oh moments where you're like, oh that that
Speaker 3: so some things that really stuck out for me. I
Speaker 3: think one of the biggest things was we were talking
Speaker 3: about the end, which is it's never too late. My god,
Speaker 3: It's never too late to have an orgasm. It's never
Speaker 3: too late to find your pleasure. I was talking to
Speaker 3: my husband about somebody who he was talking to who
Speaker 3: is older, like in their sixties and sixties, a gay person,
Speaker 3: and they were ready to explore their femininity, and oh
Speaker 3: my god. Yes. You know. It's like you get to
Speaker 3: a certain point you're like, oh, you know what, I've
Speaker 3: done it all, or like it's too late. No, it's
Speaker 3: never too late. If you want to explore your sex,
Speaker 3: your pleasure, your femininity, your masculinity, your gender expression, or
Speaker 3: you're whatever, whatever it is, just know that it's never
Speaker 3: too late. Also, I really really value thinking about the
Speaker 3: stories that we accept and you know, giving ourselves grace
Speaker 3: for the fact that we are taught to not like
Speaker 3: who we are. We are taught to hate ourselves. I
Speaker 3: always say it to to the people who are close
Speaker 3: to me and to anyone who will listen. You know,
Speaker 3: I think the beauty industry is a really big example
Speaker 3: of that. That the beauty industry as a whole makes
Speaker 3: its money off of telling us that we are not
Speaker 3: good enough. Right like, your face doesn't look like this,
Speaker 3: but if you have this product, it will. Or you
Speaker 3: are not the right size, but if you do this,
Speaker 3: you won't be the right size. You know. All the
Speaker 3: marketing that we are given from childhood and that we
Speaker 3: internalize and never gets interrupted, is always feeding us that
Speaker 3: we're not good enough. It's profitable for us to believe
Speaker 3: that we're not good enough. I might have said this
Speaker 3: on the show already, but I'm gonna say it again
Speaker 3: because let's repeat it. It is profitable for us to not
Speaker 3: feel good about ourselves. A lot of people profit off
Speaker 3: of that. But what is devastating is that you end
Speaker 3: up believing a lie. And the lie is that you're
Speaker 3: not good enough, that you're not beautiful, that you're not
Speaker 3: the right size, that you're not the right skin color,
Speaker 3: that you're not the right height, that you don't have
Speaker 3: the right size, dick, that your vulva is wrong, like
Speaker 3: that your asses, all these things that we adopt is like, oh,
Speaker 3: this is bad about me, and I have to fix.
Speaker 3: I have to fix. I have to fix. When really
Speaker 3: and truly as you are, my love, if you take
Speaker 3: nothing else away from this whole fucking show, not just
Speaker 3: this episode, but from this whole fucking show, you are.
Speaker 4: Enough as you are. You are worthy, you are beautiful,
Speaker 4: You are enough. Do not let these motherfuckers keep lying
Speaker 4: to you, Okay, if I can, if I can interrupt
Speaker 4: that for you, you have been lied too. It's not your
Speaker 4: fault that you may critique and pick it yourself over
Speaker 4: and over. It is not your fault that when you
Speaker 4: look in the mirror you don't always.
Speaker 3: Love what you see. In fact, you might hate what
Speaker 3: you see. It's not your fault. You've been wired that way.
Speaker 3: You've been trained that way so that people can profit,
Speaker 3: so people can take advantage. But it is now your
Speaker 3: responsibility to interrupt that, to love yourself the way you
Speaker 3: deserve to be loved. You're looking for that love elsewhere.
Speaker 3: You're looking for somebody else to tell you're beautiful. You're
Speaker 3: looking for somebody else to tell you're worthy, baby. You
Speaker 3: have to do that. You have to get about the business.
Speaker 3: And it's not going to happen overnight. It's not going
Speaker 3: to happen quickly. But it is a journey that I
Speaker 3: want you to go on, moment by moment, and you
Speaker 3: will slip back, but I want you to catch yourself.
Speaker 3: Look in the mirror. You'll, oh, I start critiquing, catch yourself.
Speaker 3: Uh huh No no no. My nose is perfect, my
Speaker 3: lips are perfect, my face is perfect, my body is perfect.
Speaker 3: Whatever your affirmation is, find it. And when you find
Speaker 3: yourself thinking negatively about who you are, interrupt it. Because
Speaker 3: that cage you do not belong in. That cage, baby,
Speaker 3: you just don't. What else I mean self love? The
Speaker 3: importance of self love, which is what we've been talking about,
Speaker 3: the importance of getting out that cage that the world
Speaker 3: puts you in, and understanding that you deserve to exist,
Speaker 3: that you as a sexual being and your sexual desires
Speaker 3: and your pleasures, all of it matters, and you deserve
Speaker 3: to be I love you. Okay. So I'm going to
Speaker 3: now transition into talking about the fires. So uh, if
Speaker 3: you can't, that's not where you're at. You can't have
Speaker 3: that space. I love you. I'll see you next week.
Speaker 3: But for those of you can, I won't take up
Speaker 3: too much of your time. I'll just kind of tell
Speaker 3: you what happened and what I think. I'm emotionally navigating
Speaker 3: our you know, our apartment was is luckily save our
Speaker 3: building and our neighborhood. But the fire did start right
Speaker 3: behind us, so on Wednesday, you know, the fire started
Speaker 3: last week Monday or Tuesday, and so we were on
Speaker 3: high alert and just kind of and forgive me from
Speaker 3: getting days wrong, but we were just on high alert.
Speaker 3: Were we were kind of numb, if you will, and
Speaker 3: and also shocked, just like, what is happening? What do
Speaker 3: you mean? The Palisades are on fire? What do you mean?
Speaker 3: Pasadena and I'll Dina are on fire? And then where
Speaker 3: we live, without giving away where I live, we live
Speaker 3: by a trail that is also by a lot of
Speaker 3: vegetation that is also prone to and very dry and
Speaker 3: prone to fires. But as we understood it, we were
Speaker 3: far enough away but also kind of like in between,
Speaker 3: so we were, you know, kind of diligent, and it
Speaker 3: was like, let's get it to go bag, even though
Speaker 3: there was no one saying it was gonna you know,
Speaker 3: we're just like, let's pack some stuff up. Let's what's
Speaker 3: our plan. I was feeling uneasy, and then Wednesday came
Speaker 3: and it seemed like the fires were still holding up
Speaker 3: where they were, and we were like kind of feeling, oh,
Speaker 3: most of the winds are gone, so hopefully it won't come.
Speaker 3: It won't come to where we are, and so, you know,
Speaker 3: I think there was like attention on Wednesday morning and
Speaker 3: Wednesday afternoon, and then I like released, my bags are
Speaker 3: still packed. Matthew had to work out of the city,
Speaker 3: so he was like two hours away working and I
Speaker 3: just kind of like settled, and I was editing videos.
Speaker 3: Last week's episode was with Caramo, the week before with Griff,
Speaker 3: and I hadn't, you know, with the holidays, I hadn't
Speaker 3: posted these social media clips of the interviews, so I
Speaker 3: was like editing. I was in my editing zone and
Speaker 3: like captioning and whatnot. And then my best friend who
Speaker 3: lives on the east side of town, was spending the
Speaker 3: day in my neighborhood, not with me, but with his
Speaker 3: other best friend who lives close by. So we're just
Speaker 3: like keeping in touch. And I was like in the
Speaker 3: middle of finishing up a video, and then my phone
Speaker 3: buzzes and it's my best friend who says there's a
Speaker 3: fire in this on this trail that is right behind us.
Speaker 3: And it was kind of like a I from that
Speaker 3: point on, I really can't tell you. I just kind
Speaker 3: of I locked in. I read that text. I said
Speaker 3: thank you, and I started loading the car because my
Speaker 3: fear was that the electricity would go out and I
Speaker 3: wouldn't be able to get the car out. So he
Speaker 3: was like, we're taking our cars at the garage. Was like,
Speaker 3: bet exactly. So I got my car at the garage
Speaker 3: and then I started loading the car up with my stuff.
Speaker 3: I called my husband on like I put my AirPods in.
Speaker 3: I called my husband. I said, hey, this is happening.
Speaker 3: What do you like? I have your bag? Is there
Speaker 3: anything else you need? He told me what like quickly
Speaker 3: went to grab I got the dog. I got Corey,
Speaker 3: or beautiful sixty pound pitt who what a lesson in
Speaker 3: needing to breathe because he started to adopt my energy,
Speaker 3: which was very anxious, and I couldn't get and usually
Speaker 3: I can get his harness on quite easily, but I
Speaker 3: couldn't get his harness on because he was just moving
Speaker 3: with me. He's like, what's happening? And I was like, okay, bitch,
Speaker 3: we gotta breathe. So I took a breath and I
Speaker 3: put his harness on, and then I got in the
Speaker 3: car clipped in, and I can't tell you where I
Speaker 3: was driving. I just like was like get out. And
Speaker 3: as I was driving down the hill from our place,
Speaker 3: you know, it was like at first when I was
Speaker 3: packing the car, like I no one was moving. And
Speaker 3: then I'm like, I saw one neighbor start to move,
Speaker 3: and I saw another neighborhood the suitcase. And then by
Speaker 3: the time I got in the car I was driving down,
Speaker 3: people were now starting to rush. And then you've saw
Speaker 3: cars coming out of garages. And what I can't get
Speaker 3: out of my head is kind of the sounds of
Speaker 3: fire alarms just blaring out of all these apartment buildings
Speaker 3: going down this hill. And it was that like, oh,
Speaker 3: this is happening. It's not a drill. This is happening.
Speaker 3: Like we like we are well right, And so I'm
Speaker 3: driving down the hill and I'm you know, like with
Speaker 3: with the community is It's now been announced that there's
Speaker 3: a fire near us and so anyone, anyone who knows
Speaker 3: where I live is messaging, like my inbox is filling
Speaker 3: up with are you okay? Where are you? Da? Da,
Speaker 3: da da, And you can't answer all of them because
Speaker 3: I literally do not know where I'm going or what
Speaker 3: I'm about to do, what's about to happen. I just
Speaker 3: know that I need to get away from my building
Speaker 3: and away from my neighborhood because if anything is to go,
Speaker 3: it would be us, because we are right by the vegetation.
Speaker 3: We are like like like literally I didn't but if
Speaker 3: you but the images are like if you looked in
Speaker 3: my review mirror, you could just see baby. You could
Speaker 3: just see those flames and this smoke, and it looks apocalyptic.
Speaker 3: Doesn't even begin to describe what it looks like. And
Speaker 3: with the energy of you know, everyone trying to get
Speaker 3: to safety at the same time in a very dense
Speaker 3: part of the city, you just realize, oh, this is
Speaker 3: really happening. And I was texting one of my other
Speaker 3: best so so my best friend who told me about
Speaker 3: the fire. He had he knew where he was going,
Speaker 3: which was I think east or somewhere. And then I
Speaker 3: texted with another best friend who was like, I'm in
Speaker 3: West Hollywood. We can go there, And so I was
Speaker 3: like driving tos Hollywood. And then as I was learning
Speaker 3: was Hollywood, we got kind of noticed that Wes Hollywood
Speaker 3: was evacuating because the fire was spreading, but there was
Speaker 3: like another fire, and so I was like, okay, we
Speaker 3: can't stay here. So I got to them and we
Speaker 3: packed the car with their stuff, and then I was
Speaker 3: texting with my partner, my bun, and they were like
Speaker 3: they just got an evacuation notice as well, and so
Speaker 3: it's like, okay, let's get to them. And so you know,
Speaker 3: my car has just become kind of a school bus,
Speaker 3: just like picking up these people that I love, and
Speaker 3: like checking with other people. And then we're trying to
Speaker 3: figure out where where to go, and I think changed
Speaker 3: our minds fifteen eleven times, and finally we're able to
Speaker 3: find a spot in Long Beach and get there, and
Speaker 3: yet Matthew there and we all just kind of buckled
Speaker 3: down in Long Beach for a few days until we
Speaker 3: were cleared to go back home, or for I think
Speaker 3: two days, yeah, And and then you know we were
Speaker 3: told whence we're coming back, and Matthew needed to work
Speaker 3: out of the city again, and so we were decided
Speaker 3: to just all go just like, you know, pack up whatever,
Speaker 3: pack up whatever was whatever we knew we just couldn't
Speaker 3: live without, and I even couldn't live without, but just
Speaker 3: whatever was important since we had another, you know, another shot,
Speaker 3: if you will. Were there things or their pieces that
Speaker 3: were irreplaceable how we wanted to pack I had read
Speaker 3: this post by John Mayer, which I'm gonna butcher it,
Speaker 3: but it was basically saying, you know, when people were
Speaker 3: saying they lost everything. Of course they lost their homes
Speaker 3: and their you know, their spaces and their apartment buildings,
Speaker 3: and some people lost people. But inside of losing everything
Speaker 3: were the memories and these things that kind of remind
Speaker 3: you that the people who were no longer here existed,
Speaker 3: you know. I the first thing that I grabbed that
Speaker 3: first time was my grandmother's crucifix. I'm not religious, but
Speaker 3: it's like the only the only thing that I have
Speaker 3: for my grandmother is her cross that she used to
Speaker 3: wear every but every day pretty much, but also especially
Speaker 3: every Sunday, and it hangs above my desk, and so
Speaker 3: it's the one thing that I have of hers. And so,
Speaker 3: you know, in this kind of packing again, it was
Speaker 3: thinking about what are the you know, what are the
Speaker 3: pictures or the pieces that are just like that represent
Speaker 3: people that matter that are no longer here and you
Speaker 3: just you know, you can't get that back. And so
Speaker 3: that's how we, I think, chose what we were packing
Speaker 3: our cars with for this, you know, I would say
Speaker 3: self imposed evacuation. The emotions are complicated because you know,
Speaker 3: we survive something that a lot of people weren't able
Speaker 3: to or that some people weren't able to survive with
Speaker 3: their life literally. But also like you know, I know
Speaker 3: people who have lost their homes now and who have
Speaker 3: lost their apartment buildings and who are starting over. And
Speaker 3: my barber is one of them. My my, my barber
Speaker 3: who I you know, if you know anything about me,
Speaker 3: you know I get a haircut. This is like since
Speaker 3: I was in since I was in college, I get
Speaker 3: a haircut every week. So I have a very close
Speaker 3: relationship with every barber that I have as I see
Speaker 3: them so often. And so my barber, who have had
Speaker 3: for the last few years, you know, I see him
Speaker 3: once a week, sometimes I see him twice a week,
Speaker 3: depending on what work is. And it lives in Pasadena
Speaker 3: and so of course, when I found out there was
Speaker 3: a fire Pasadena, like messaging my people that I know
Speaker 3: up there, and when he told me, you know, their
Speaker 3: apartment building burned down, you know, it's just like fuck,
Speaker 3: you know, the helplessness, the out of and you know
Speaker 3: that the only one. There are a lot of people
Speaker 3: that I know who you know. I just got another
Speaker 3: email yesterday that a coworker lost their home, and it's
Speaker 3: a lot. This is I read a post that was
Speaker 3: like basically driving what we're you know, what we're doing
Speaker 3: as La City residents, you know, checking in with your community, donating,
Speaker 3: you know, buying supplies, and just like please it is
Speaker 3: not business as usual. Please stop emailing us about scheduling meetings.
Speaker 3: Like we are traumatized and people are handling it differently
Speaker 3: right and I want to hold space for that. Some
Speaker 3: people are really numb right now. Some people work is
Speaker 3: how they are moving through. They're continuing to take their
Speaker 3: meetings or and some of us are and some people
Speaker 3: are just crying, and some of us are cycling through
Speaker 3: it all. And I want to acknowledge and and say
Speaker 3: that there is no wrong way to engage with this
Speaker 3: when you are inside of it. But I do wish
Speaker 3: that we were allowed to what do I wish I'm
Speaker 3: going to fumble through this, allow me to say this imperfectly.
Speaker 3: I wish that it was normal for the expectations to
Speaker 3: be that they are not normal right now, that we
Speaker 3: cannot operate like things are normal. I wish that people
Speaker 3: felt safe enough to not go to work if they
Speaker 3: are unable to. But then it's like, well, if you've
Speaker 3: lost things, or if you feel like you're on the brink,
Speaker 3: or or if you are or if there's a threat
Speaker 3: of you losing things and you gotta work right because
Speaker 3: you got to pay for things, like it's it's and
Speaker 3: like that's a mind fuck. At this point, I am
Speaker 3: just sharing with you the the surface level of complexities
Speaker 3: that is going on in the city. That's going on
Speaker 3: with me, that's going on with my community, that's going
Speaker 3: on with communities at large. There's a lot being navigated.
Speaker 3: And so if you are outside of l I ask
Speaker 3: that you just be gentle with those of your people
Speaker 3: who are in LA right now. Like I said, I'm
Speaker 3: recording this and fires are still going We're not okay.
Speaker 3: Even if we say we're okay, we're not okay. People
Speaker 3: who've lost their homes are clearly not okay. And people
Speaker 3: who still have their homes, I want to say, are
Speaker 3: also not okay. Everyone is doing their best with the
Speaker 3: capacity they have. My barber decided to come in to work,
Speaker 3: and so I got to see him and his girlfriend,
Speaker 3: and you know, I'm so moved by how in good
Speaker 3: spirits they are. How I mean, they're smiles and they
Speaker 3: have each other, and you know they are they're acknowledging,
Speaker 3: you know, the storm, the ship show of it all.
Speaker 3: But also like you get really clear about what matters,
Speaker 3: you get really clear about what's important, and people, your
Speaker 3: people and your pets becomes really clear that that's what's important.
Speaker 3: That's where I'm gonna end this, because I have been
Speaker 3: talking for a minute. And of course you can find
Speaker 3: fire resources and resources in terms of supporting people who
Speaker 3: have been impacted by the wildfires in our show notes.
Speaker 3: Tell me what you love them, and I love you,
Speaker 3: and I'm grateful for this show to be able to
Speaker 3: still talk to you, and we'll talk more soon. I
Speaker 3: love you. You can find Emily on Instagram at e. Nagowski
Speaker 3: and a g o s k I or Emilyanogoski dot com.
Speaker 3: You can find me on Instagram as well at Brandon
Speaker 3: Kyle Goodman. You can find our podcast at tell Me
Speaker 3: Something Messy, and you can join our community on the
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Speaker 3: all right, Until next time, ask about the politics of
Speaker 3: that dick before you make it spit, make sure they
Speaker 3: eat the kitty before they beat the kitty, before fucation
Speaker 3: or suctation communication. And in case you haven't heard it yet,
Speaker 3: today you are so deeply loved you bye, Thank you
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