1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,000 Speaker 1: Hi everyone, I'm Gaty Current and welcome to next question. 2 00:00:05,640 --> 00:00:09,360 Speaker 1: Today we get a look inside one of the most comfortable, sustainable, 3 00:00:09,480 --> 00:00:14,400 Speaker 1: and surprising innovations in shoes, the Wolf sneaker from All 4 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:18,880 Speaker 1: Birds with the kiwi who invented them. The idea was weird, 5 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:22,120 Speaker 1: and it was weird and weird in a positive way. 6 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:26,200 Speaker 1: Tim Brown, along with his co founder and co CEO 7 00:00:26,480 --> 00:00:30,720 Speaker 1: Joey's Willinger, launched All Birds in two thousand and sixteen 8 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:34,440 Speaker 1: as a little directed consumer shoe company. Tim was the 9 00:00:34,479 --> 00:00:38,960 Speaker 1: creative designer from New zealand Joey the analytical engineer from 10 00:00:39,040 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: San Francisco. Both happened to be soccer players and neither 11 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:47,040 Speaker 1: had any experience in footwear. Largely, this was going to 12 00:00:47,159 --> 00:00:49,599 Speaker 1: succeed or file, at least in the first instance, by 13 00:00:49,720 --> 00:00:52,360 Speaker 1: by how strong that punish it was. And this entrepreneurial 14 00:00:52,360 --> 00:00:56,000 Speaker 1: thing is like another marriage enormous priscia. Not to mention 15 00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,560 Speaker 1: the financial risk, there is also the public risk of 16 00:00:58,600 --> 00:01:02,600 Speaker 1: something just being bad. And yet less than four years later, 17 00:01:02,800 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: All Birds is a one point for billion dollar company 18 00:01:06,920 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: with retail stores around the world and big plans to 19 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,759 Speaker 1: expand into other fashion realms. So my next question, how 20 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:19,040 Speaker 1: did All Birds become the little shoe Company That Could. 21 00:01:20,880 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: I recently have the chance to interview Tim Brown for 22 00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 1: our very first Next Question Live, an intimate innovation focus 23 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:32,400 Speaker 1: series in front of a live audience in New York City. 24 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,600 Speaker 1: The last time I saw you, you interviewed Sheryl Sandberg 25 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 1: on stage and it was pretty intense interviews. I was 26 00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: a little nervous, so let's go a friendly don't worry, 27 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,479 Speaker 1: you know, I think you're not in the hot seat 28 00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: like Facebook was at the time. I went pretty easy 29 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:52,520 Speaker 1: on Tim. We started with his background. He grew up 30 00:01:52,520 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: in Wellington, New Zealand, but came to the States for college, 31 00:01:56,480 --> 00:02:01,080 Speaker 1: attending the University of Cincinnati for design. Eventually he went 32 00:02:01,160 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: to the London School of Economics. But what's unique about 33 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: Tim's background is that he spent the better part of 34 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,320 Speaker 1: his twenties as a professional athlete. When the rest of 35 00:02:11,360 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: his friends were grinding away in offices, Tim was on 36 00:02:14,639 --> 00:02:17,960 Speaker 1: the field playing soccer, or as it's known across the 37 00:02:17,960 --> 00:02:20,600 Speaker 1: pond football. You know, I don't think I as a 38 00:02:20,680 --> 00:02:23,360 Speaker 1: netural athlete by any stretch, but I was determined and 39 00:02:23,400 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 1: I was competitive, and I realized at a very very 40 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: early age I hated to lose, really really hated to 41 00:02:29,639 --> 00:02:32,440 Speaker 1: lose and um, and so that became a kind of 42 00:02:32,520 --> 00:02:34,959 Speaker 1: a theme of my sporting career. And you know, I 43 00:02:35,040 --> 00:02:37,920 Speaker 1: kept edging towards doing a little bit more, a little 44 00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: bit more, and then you you know, the goals keep expanding, 45 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:42,680 Speaker 1: and then all of a sudden, you know you're You're 46 00:02:42,800 --> 00:02:44,720 Speaker 1: at a World Cup and two thousand and ten. So 47 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: it was just an incredible journey and I was I 48 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:50,280 Speaker 1: was lucky. It was a journey that set the flight 49 00:02:50,320 --> 00:02:53,720 Speaker 1: path to all birds. It was like a boyhood dreamed 50 00:02:53,760 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: to be able to play football professionally, and then you realize, 51 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: like anything else, it's a job. And there's some great 52 00:02:58,680 --> 00:03:00,600 Speaker 1: things about it and some not so and things about it. 53 00:03:00,639 --> 00:03:01,920 Speaker 1: One of the great things about it was you've got 54 00:03:01,919 --> 00:03:05,440 Speaker 1: free gear and uh and I was sponsored by one 55 00:03:05,440 --> 00:03:07,000 Speaker 1: of the big sports where companies that I don't like 56 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:14,280 Speaker 1: to name, and uh and um, I won't and and 57 00:03:14,320 --> 00:03:15,480 Speaker 1: you know, I got lots of free gear and it 58 00:03:15,520 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: was it was cool, it was awesome, and you know, 59 00:03:17,320 --> 00:03:19,440 Speaker 1: but this idea was really born out of that. I mean, 60 00:03:19,440 --> 00:03:21,640 Speaker 1: everything had logos. I felt like a kind of a 61 00:03:21,639 --> 00:03:25,440 Speaker 1: walking billboard at times for this brand, and certainly in 62 00:03:25,720 --> 00:03:27,440 Speaker 1: the context that I was living in, it was very 63 00:03:27,520 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: very hard to find a simple shoe without without logos. 64 00:03:30,720 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 1: So I, rather naively, while I was still very much 65 00:03:34,760 --> 00:03:37,800 Speaker 1: focused on soccer knee deep and my career, set out 66 00:03:37,800 --> 00:03:39,760 Speaker 1: to try and see if I could make one. What 67 00:03:39,880 --> 00:03:42,960 Speaker 1: Tim wanted in a shoe was something simpler, no bells, 68 00:03:43,000 --> 00:03:46,240 Speaker 1: no whistles, no fuss, a design that didn't need to 69 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:50,120 Speaker 1: be thrown out and updated every year. And he didn't 70 00:03:50,160 --> 00:03:53,240 Speaker 1: think he was the only one who wanted that. Did 71 00:03:53,280 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: the world need another shoe brand? No, but I definitely 72 00:03:55,920 --> 00:03:57,600 Speaker 1: saw a kind of a white space for a for 73 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:01,000 Speaker 1: a different type of design philosophy. But the real insight 74 00:04:01,120 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: came when in one of my off seasons, I flew 75 00:04:03,800 --> 00:04:06,560 Speaker 1: to a footwear factory that I found online, and I 76 00:04:06,600 --> 00:04:10,080 Speaker 1: walked into this whole new world that I knew absolutely 77 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: nothing about. That footwear factory was in Indonesia, where Tim 78 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:18,479 Speaker 1: found a world of synthetic fabrics, cheap shoes made cheaply 79 00:04:18,560 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: for maximum profit. He left the factory with a mission 80 00:04:22,760 --> 00:04:24,479 Speaker 1: I think I'm gonna make. I'm gonna make a couple 81 00:04:24,480 --> 00:04:26,640 Speaker 1: of thousand pairs of shoes, which was the minimum that 82 00:04:26,680 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: the guy would make and I didn't have a plan 83 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:30,800 Speaker 1: much beyond that except that I thought I might sell 84 00:04:30,839 --> 00:04:33,680 Speaker 1: them to my teammates or something um and that's what 85 00:04:33,720 --> 00:04:37,120 Speaker 1: I did. What did you see that was missing from 86 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,880 Speaker 1: the landscape in terms of a shoe and shoe production? 87 00:04:42,160 --> 00:04:44,960 Speaker 1: So it becomes three things. So the first one's design, 88 00:04:45,040 --> 00:04:46,960 Speaker 1: and I mean that's as clear to me today as 89 00:04:47,040 --> 00:04:48,919 Speaker 1: any you know, as as a as kind of a 90 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:51,840 Speaker 1: minimalist who had been trained in this idea of sort 91 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:54,359 Speaker 1: of taking things away of design as sort of the 92 00:04:54,480 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: form following the function. That was really clear. And then 93 00:04:57,080 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 1: it became about materials because it it seemed obvious to 94 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: me that the footware industry had defaulted to making things 95 00:05:04,000 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 1: out of synthetic materials largely based on cost, and that 96 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:11,000 Speaker 1: there was an opportunity with different materials that had been overlooked. 97 00:05:11,040 --> 00:05:13,080 Speaker 1: And I came back, I was back in New Zealand 98 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,800 Speaker 1: reading a magazine literally about this huge decline of the 99 00:05:16,800 --> 00:05:19,960 Speaker 1: wool industry in New Zealand and how they were desperate 100 00:05:19,960 --> 00:05:23,480 Speaker 1: for innovation. This was a very very important primary industry 101 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:27,320 Speaker 1: in New Zealand that had been really destroyed, largely by 102 00:05:27,320 --> 00:05:29,320 Speaker 1: the synthetic industry over a long period of time and 103 00:05:29,360 --> 00:05:31,159 Speaker 1: was crying out for innovation, and so I applied for 104 00:05:31,200 --> 00:05:34,360 Speaker 1: this grant while I was still playing soccer. That was successful. 105 00:05:34,640 --> 00:05:37,000 Speaker 1: That was how desperate they were. And they started making 106 00:05:37,040 --> 00:05:40,599 Speaker 1: this material to make shoes out of wall and and 107 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: this went on for years and again, I mean, this 108 00:05:43,760 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: is happening over so long, So I think the story 109 00:05:45,440 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: starts probably two thousand and seven, and I'm still chipping 110 00:05:48,200 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: away at this like three or four years later. So 111 00:05:52,279 --> 00:05:55,600 Speaker 1: it's happening slowly. But you know that the opportunity used 112 00:05:55,839 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: these different types of materials seemed wise. No one done 113 00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:01,680 Speaker 1: this before. This idea seems so obvious, And everyone I 114 00:06:01,680 --> 00:06:03,120 Speaker 1: talked to about it, they said, why has that not 115 00:06:03,200 --> 00:06:05,520 Speaker 1: been done before? It's probably a dumb idea, but why 116 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,320 Speaker 1: has it not been done before? The material seemed attractive 117 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: to you in terms of comfort and style and what else. 118 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:15,800 Speaker 1: So peak sheep in New Zealand is sort of ninety 119 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:18,680 Speaker 1: eight circon eight and there's seventy million sheep, and now 120 00:06:18,720 --> 00:06:21,360 Speaker 1: there's less than thirty million, five million, And no one 121 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:23,039 Speaker 1: in New Zealand is growing up dreaming of being a 122 00:06:23,080 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 1: sheep farmer. So this is this is an industry that's 123 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,920 Speaker 1: crying out for innovation. I get this grant, it comes 124 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: out of a research lab with this material, and you know, 125 00:06:30,920 --> 00:06:34,280 Speaker 1: I subsequently go to the World Cup, retire, and all 126 00:06:34,320 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: of a sudden show up at Business School in London, 127 00:06:36,440 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 1: which is where I went, and I have this material 128 00:06:39,279 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 1: that has largely been made for me with no restrictions, 129 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:44,440 Speaker 1: that's taken a long time, and a little bit of 130 00:06:44,440 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: shoemaking knowledge from my forays into Indonesia, and so again 131 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:51,800 Speaker 1: another moment of time just to put these two things together, 132 00:06:51,839 --> 00:06:53,919 Speaker 1: and you know, you start to understand that wool is 133 00:06:53,960 --> 00:06:57,880 Speaker 1: this incredibly soft, you know, wicks away moisture that's sort 134 00:06:57,880 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: of really the ultimate natural performance for bricks. I started 135 00:07:00,920 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: to see the opportunities and I understood them inherently as 136 00:07:03,520 --> 00:07:05,400 Speaker 1: a kiewie. I think in terms of the possibility of 137 00:07:05,400 --> 00:07:08,160 Speaker 1: this material. But I hadn't yet pieced together the third 138 00:07:08,279 --> 00:07:11,080 Speaker 1: piece of this and how it fits into the topic 139 00:07:11,080 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 1: of sustainability. It wasn't what I was focused on. It 140 00:07:13,160 --> 00:07:15,200 Speaker 1: was the product. But that was the sort of sequence 141 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 1: of events and we should mention along the way. You 142 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: went to the London School of Economics, and then you 143 00:07:19,360 --> 00:07:22,360 Speaker 1: went to business school at Calart. Right, yes, So I 144 00:07:22,400 --> 00:07:24,320 Speaker 1: retired from sport after the World Carpet was never going 145 00:07:24,360 --> 00:07:26,600 Speaker 1: to get any better than that, and I decided to 146 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:31,360 Speaker 1: get serious about life at thirty two, and I had 147 00:07:31,360 --> 00:07:35,440 Speaker 1: an entrepreneurship class at Kellogg taught by a prophet called 148 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:39,240 Speaker 1: Carter cast who was a former CEO of Walmart dot com, 149 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:41,960 Speaker 1: this amazing guy, and it was. It was a sixty 150 00:07:42,640 --> 00:07:45,520 Speaker 1: ten weeks entrepreneurship class and everyone had to pitch an idea. 151 00:07:46,200 --> 00:07:48,280 Speaker 1: And so I came in and there was a class 152 00:07:48,400 --> 00:07:50,280 Speaker 1: not dis similar to this in size, and everyone had 153 00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:51,960 Speaker 1: one minute to pitch their idea. And I got up 154 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:54,920 Speaker 1: and I said wall shoes. And they voted down the 155 00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 1: ideas until there was ten teams of six, and miraculously 156 00:07:59,200 --> 00:08:00,920 Speaker 1: wall Shoes got picked. Then all of a sudden, I 157 00:08:00,920 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 1: had this like six person team at business school running 158 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: at this idea in a way in ways that that 159 00:08:05,480 --> 00:08:06,880 Speaker 1: you know, I had never really thought about it. And 160 00:08:06,920 --> 00:08:09,440 Speaker 1: it was this this weird moment you have these moments. 161 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: That was a moment when if if the idea hadn't 162 00:08:11,760 --> 00:08:13,840 Speaker 1: been picked in that particular class, maybe it doesn't happen. 163 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: Um And we ran with it when we come back 164 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,800 Speaker 1: how Tim picked his partner and how their professional marriage 165 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 1: almost killed the awbird stream. Tim Brown was eager to 166 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:34,040 Speaker 1: see if his wool shoe idea had any traction, so 167 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: he went back home to New Zealand, shot a little 168 00:08:36,440 --> 00:08:40,040 Speaker 1: video on a friend's sheep farm and posted it along 169 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:42,480 Speaker 1: with the six pairs of wool shoes he had made 170 00:08:42,520 --> 00:08:45,680 Speaker 1: so far on Kickstarter. We baked on a journey to 171 00:08:45,720 --> 00:08:49,240 Speaker 1: create off the shoe designed specifically for socless shoe, but 172 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: it as few scenes as possible a shoe the bridge 173 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:54,679 Speaker 1: sport and fashion. It was as comfortable with a peer 174 00:08:54,760 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 1: of jeans as it wasn't. And this is a true story. 175 00:08:57,360 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 1: Before my mom could even work out how to buy 176 00:08:59,040 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 1: up here on kickstar up, she's having some technical problems 177 00:09:01,160 --> 00:09:03,720 Speaker 1: with a credit card at checkout. We sold the thousand 178 00:09:03,760 --> 00:09:05,760 Speaker 1: peers that we could make because that's all I could 179 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: in four days, and it did ad dollars and my 180 00:09:09,000 --> 00:09:10,760 Speaker 1: phone didn't stop buzzing and I had to switch it 181 00:09:10,760 --> 00:09:13,120 Speaker 1: off because of the trajector it was on and not 182 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,360 Speaker 1: being able to deliver on the on the on the product. 183 00:09:15,400 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: So I was shocked and scared. It's very easy to 184 00:09:19,400 --> 00:09:22,120 Speaker 1: have an idea much much harder to actually put it 185 00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,800 Speaker 1: in front of people that you don't know and ask 186 00:09:24,920 --> 00:09:27,280 Speaker 1: for money out of their wallet. And the sooner you 187 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: do that, the sooner this things becomes real. And it's 188 00:09:30,960 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: also the moment, if you're doing it right, you get 189 00:09:32,800 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 1: really scared. And that's what I was. I was really 190 00:09:35,080 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 1: scared because I know, the truth be told, I didn't 191 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:41,000 Speaker 1: really know how I was going to make all of 192 00:09:41,040 --> 00:09:43,360 Speaker 1: these things. I didn't really have any knowledge of shoes, 193 00:09:43,400 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: and it turns out they're extraordinarily difficult to make, and 194 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: I was making it with material that had never been 195 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:48,960 Speaker 1: used before. So there was a bunch of things that 196 00:09:49,000 --> 00:09:52,760 Speaker 1: were difficult about it. Anyone who has built anything, um 197 00:09:52,800 --> 00:09:54,840 Speaker 1: you know, will tell you there is that moment where 198 00:09:54,840 --> 00:09:57,679 Speaker 1: you you doubt yourself and you know you've got to 199 00:09:57,720 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: push through and and and you lean on your family 200 00:10:01,000 --> 00:10:03,559 Speaker 1: and your friends, and um you know, my girlfriend now 201 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: wife paid some of the bills, and you pushed through. 202 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,040 Speaker 1: And I had a very very difficult year, um but delivered, 203 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 1: delivered the thousand piers of shoes around the world for 204 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:15,240 Speaker 1: the most part, and um you know, was it another juncture. 205 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:20,240 Speaker 1: The Kickstarter campaign attracted a lot of attention from consumers 206 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: and also investors. It should have been a big confidence boost. Instead, 207 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:30,720 Speaker 1: Tim was full of self doubt. You know, my dad 208 00:10:30,720 --> 00:10:32,800 Speaker 1: had started to refer to me as a cobbler, which 209 00:10:32,840 --> 00:10:35,880 Speaker 1: was really annoying. And so you're like, what am I? 210 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:37,719 Speaker 1: What am I doing? And this is I mean, this 211 00:10:37,800 --> 00:10:39,560 Speaker 1: is a little maybe it's become almost a little bit 212 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:42,360 Speaker 1: of a cliche conversation these days, but I was kind 213 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:46,200 Speaker 1: of missing the why behind this whole thing. Tim's wife's 214 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 1: roommate from Dartmouth is married to Joey's Willinger, an engineer 215 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:55,200 Speaker 1: living in San Francisco. Joey would help Tim figure out 216 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:59,040 Speaker 1: the why. He had really committed his career to um 217 00:10:59,080 --> 00:11:03,520 Speaker 1: sustainability and use of renewable materials, and for my you know, 218 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:06,240 Speaker 1: as clear as my design vision was, he had an 219 00:11:06,240 --> 00:11:09,559 Speaker 1: equally clear vision around the sort of revolution that was 220 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:12,680 Speaker 1: going to come and sustainability and sustainable manufacturing that the 221 00:11:12,760 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 1: world was going to need to find a better ways 222 00:11:15,480 --> 00:11:18,120 Speaker 1: to make things, in his words, and it was going 223 00:11:18,160 --> 00:11:20,960 Speaker 1: to happen in a whole bunch of industries. But the 224 00:11:20,960 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 1: first industry that was going to lead the way was 225 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,520 Speaker 1: the fashion industry, and moreover, the fashion industry had a 226 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 1: real problem to solve. UM. You know, I had Enjoy 227 00:11:28,640 --> 00:11:32,040 Speaker 1: an engineer, he'd been to Warton. He was he was, 228 00:11:32,080 --> 00:11:34,720 Speaker 1: in many ways a scientist, anchored in the materials and 229 00:11:34,760 --> 00:11:39,040 Speaker 1: the operational side of it UM And so I found 230 00:11:39,040 --> 00:11:40,160 Speaker 1: the person that could do all the bit so I 231 00:11:40,160 --> 00:11:42,800 Speaker 1: didn't want to do so it was perfect. It was perfect, 232 00:11:42,960 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: and it was official. Albert's was up and running online 233 00:11:47,360 --> 00:11:51,880 Speaker 1: and crushing it, but already there were cracks in the relationship. Yeah, 234 00:11:52,040 --> 00:11:54,000 Speaker 1: So we started working out of his his mother in 235 00:11:54,040 --> 00:11:56,280 Speaker 1: law's house in San Raphael. We raised a couple of 236 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,599 Speaker 1: million dollars in Ventura Capital Um and you know, I 237 00:11:59,640 --> 00:12:02,480 Speaker 1: think we had five employees. We launched. We launched All 238 00:12:02,520 --> 00:12:05,360 Speaker 1: Birds on the first of March, and we had a 239 00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: business plan that was largely made up and fabricated. Ah. 240 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:11,400 Speaker 1: And you know, we did a million dollars in the 241 00:12:11,440 --> 00:12:14,840 Speaker 1: first month, blew through I think our first three years 242 00:12:14,840 --> 00:12:16,920 Speaker 1: of sales inside the first six months or so. It 243 00:12:16,960 --> 00:12:19,000 Speaker 1: was just it. We just took this thing, took off 244 00:12:19,040 --> 00:12:21,960 Speaker 1: in a way that we could never have imagined. And we're, 245 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:25,520 Speaker 1: you know, a month into this and and I'm looking 246 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: at him and I think he's looking at me and 247 00:12:27,720 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 1: we're saying, I don't think I want to work with 248 00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 1: you anymore, you know. And I think we've just been 249 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,880 Speaker 1: through this enormously, like six or seven months of heads down, 250 00:12:37,120 --> 00:12:40,640 Speaker 1: just grinding with all the uncertainty of of of whether 251 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:43,160 Speaker 1: this was going to completely fail and all the embarrassment 252 00:12:43,160 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 1: that would come with that, and it had actually gone well, 253 00:12:45,600 --> 00:12:47,920 Speaker 1: but just the emotion of building something of you know, 254 00:12:47,960 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: with that much pressure on on on on so many things. 255 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:51,959 Speaker 1: And Joey had two little kids at the time he 256 00:12:52,040 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: stepped away from this well paying job, and it was 257 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,720 Speaker 1: a moment where I just think we we let it 258 00:12:56,760 --> 00:12:59,400 Speaker 1: all out and all the good and the bag came 259 00:12:59,440 --> 00:13:04,960 Speaker 1: out for a series of beers on one afternoon and 260 00:13:04,960 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: and um, you know, it was a pretty important moment. 261 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:09,560 Speaker 1: It's an opportunity to sort of understand people's hopes and 262 00:13:09,559 --> 00:13:11,200 Speaker 1: fears could have gone either way. I think, what is 263 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: he good at? And what are you good at? Uh? 264 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:18,600 Speaker 1: You know, he there's a bunch of things, very different 265 00:13:18,600 --> 00:13:21,040 Speaker 1: sort of skill sets. He's you know, he's an analytical engineer. 266 00:13:21,080 --> 00:13:23,199 Speaker 1: I'm a I'm a creative designer. So I think that's 267 00:13:23,200 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: a very big distinction. He's an American and I'm in 268 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:31,800 Speaker 1: New Zealander. Uh and and that cultural um nuance. I 269 00:13:32,080 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 1: actually is married to an American. These two cultures go 270 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: together so well, I think in many ways. And um 271 00:13:38,559 --> 00:13:41,440 Speaker 1: and uh, you know, the sense of humor and maybe 272 00:13:41,520 --> 00:13:45,360 Speaker 1: New Zealander's lack of confidence and uh, I won't you know, 273 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:47,920 Speaker 1: I won't say anything. You know what I'm talking about Americans. 274 00:13:48,440 --> 00:13:51,400 Speaker 1: I don't like that. At times. I said that very politely. 275 00:13:51,679 --> 00:13:54,000 Speaker 1: So these two things kind of coming together. I was 276 00:13:54,040 --> 00:13:58,800 Speaker 1: taught to to not talk up ideas and have big ones. 277 00:13:58,880 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: Culturally in New zealand's a litt bit of a problem 278 00:14:00,600 --> 00:14:02,719 Speaker 1: in some ways. Like it's like you would never tell 279 00:14:02,720 --> 00:14:03,959 Speaker 1: anyone as a kid you wanted to go to the 280 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: World Cup. You just would never do that. That's that's 281 00:14:06,600 --> 00:14:08,600 Speaker 1: how you get beaten up at school, you know, because 282 00:14:08,640 --> 00:14:10,079 Speaker 1: you think you're good, and you know, you think a 283 00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: humility is really valued. It's really valued to a point, 284 00:14:13,520 --> 00:14:15,440 Speaker 1: almost to a fault. And then you know, when I 285 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 1: came to America, the biggest gift that America has given 286 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:19,000 Speaker 1: me is like, yeah, it's okay to say you're going 287 00:14:19,040 --> 00:14:20,920 Speaker 1: to go do something good and then get after it. 288 00:14:20,960 --> 00:14:23,560 Speaker 1: There's absolutely no shame either if it doesn't go right, 289 00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:26,120 Speaker 1: that is a gift as well. And and so those 290 00:14:26,160 --> 00:14:29,000 Speaker 1: two things coming together as has been really really valuable. 291 00:14:29,320 --> 00:14:31,880 Speaker 1: And then we split it as co CEOs and I 292 00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:33,720 Speaker 1: ran the product and the brand and he ran the 293 00:14:33,800 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: sort of operations in the supply chain and the finance 294 00:14:36,640 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: and the technology, and it's worked out really well. Coming 295 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 1: up why shoes are destroying the environment and how Albert's 296 00:14:44,120 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: wants to fix that. There's a lot of debate around 297 00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: just how bad the fashion industry is for the environment. 298 00:14:57,880 --> 00:15:05,320 Speaker 1: It's complex and multilayered, supply I chain, touches, agriculture, livestock, petroleum, mining, construction, 299 00:15:05,440 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: shipping and manufacturing, and the advent of fast fashion the 300 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 1: mass manufacturing of cheap, trendy clothes hasn't helped. But shoes 301 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: in particular have a terrible wrap. She shoe shaved me 302 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:24,320 Speaker 1: because they essentially never biodegrade. They just live on and 303 00:15:24,600 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: on and on, and twenty billion pairs of shoes are 304 00:15:28,240 --> 00:15:32,800 Speaker 1: manufactured every single year. So where does that leave all birds? 305 00:15:33,280 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: Joey had an enormous amount of expertise here, but we 306 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,400 Speaker 1: believed we could do it differently, that we could bring 307 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:44,400 Speaker 1: UM new materials to beer and footwear UM, and we 308 00:15:44,480 --> 00:15:49,040 Speaker 1: could focus deeply on them and innovati around them. We 309 00:15:49,120 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 1: could do that not just because it's the right thing 310 00:15:50,960 --> 00:15:53,800 Speaker 1: to do, but do it because it made more comfortable 311 00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:55,840 Speaker 1: products and a better experience. And I think that's a 312 00:15:55,920 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: really key early insight. People don't buy sustainability that by 313 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,560 Speaker 1: great products, and it's incumbent on sort of business to 314 00:16:02,640 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: sort of change and make things in a bit away. 315 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:06,360 Speaker 1: And that was a really key kind of plank for 316 00:16:06,600 --> 00:16:08,320 Speaker 1: for the way that we were working. And we set 317 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:09,360 Speaker 1: off to do that, and we did it with one 318 00:16:09,400 --> 00:16:12,840 Speaker 1: material and wall, and we've added another in in eucalyptus 319 00:16:12,920 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: fiber and subsequently again a soul made from sugarcane. And 320 00:16:17,440 --> 00:16:21,680 Speaker 1: you know, our belief is that natural materials are the 321 00:16:21,840 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 1: pathway to better practice for the fashion industry. You're certified 322 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:29,760 Speaker 1: v CORE and you've stayed true to your commitment. UM. 323 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:32,680 Speaker 1: Not only in the construction of the shoes, are you 324 00:16:32,760 --> 00:16:36,880 Speaker 1: trying to be environmentally sensitive, but what about all up 325 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:39,080 Speaker 1: and down the supply chain. It's a lot to do 326 00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:42,000 Speaker 1: with certifications. You can't be everywhere, so you need to 327 00:16:42,080 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: invest in materials that UM. You know, the best in 328 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,000 Speaker 1: the business and and and lean into certifications that are 329 00:16:48,360 --> 00:16:50,920 Speaker 1: meeting the right type of environmental standards. And we do 330 00:16:51,000 --> 00:16:53,800 Speaker 1: it in the case of our wall with ZQ bond, 331 00:16:53,800 --> 00:16:58,560 Speaker 1: SUCRE with a sugar and FFC for its Stewardship Council 332 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: for our eucalyptus. So those things are really important. And 333 00:17:01,720 --> 00:17:04,600 Speaker 1: then you know, you want to you want to also 334 00:17:04,680 --> 00:17:07,600 Speaker 1: sort of measure and understand your carbon. So that was 335 00:17:07,800 --> 00:17:09,320 Speaker 1: that was another big thing. And you know, I think 336 00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:11,840 Speaker 1: it's a really key point because the topic of sustainability 337 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,239 Speaker 1: is a really complicated and confusing one. And I think 338 00:17:14,240 --> 00:17:17,160 Speaker 1: if we went we went around this room and ask people, 339 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 1: like what does sustainability mean? Some people might say it's 340 00:17:20,560 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: about water usage and land usage, and others might say 341 00:17:23,280 --> 00:17:25,399 Speaker 1: ee quality, and someone else is going to say end 342 00:17:25,440 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: of life, uh, you know, or transport um and and 343 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,879 Speaker 1: and the reality is all those are true and important, 344 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,000 Speaker 1: but they ladder up to the singular idea that carbon 345 00:17:36,160 --> 00:17:38,240 Speaker 1: is the is the scorecard that we're going to be 346 00:17:38,720 --> 00:17:41,239 Speaker 1: judged by as we as we work our way out 347 00:17:41,280 --> 00:17:44,560 Speaker 1: of this environmental crisis that we're in. And so that 348 00:17:44,680 --> 00:17:46,320 Speaker 1: was a kind of a key kind of insight for 349 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:49,040 Speaker 1: us as we've as we've gone through, so measuring carbon 350 00:17:49,400 --> 00:17:51,480 Speaker 1: deeply all the way through our supply chain is something 351 00:17:51,560 --> 00:17:54,880 Speaker 1: that we've we've done largely from the beginning. Let's talk 352 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,880 Speaker 1: about the Amazon controversy. Were you surprised that they made 353 00:17:59,000 --> 00:18:04,560 Speaker 1: all birds cats? And how how pissed off are you? Uh? 354 00:18:05,000 --> 00:18:07,159 Speaker 1: You know, it's we're not the first company to have 355 00:18:07,280 --> 00:18:11,920 Speaker 1: been to being imitated by them when it happens to you, Yeah, 356 00:18:12,160 --> 00:18:15,920 Speaker 1: you know, there was frustration. I mean, I think we've 357 00:18:16,040 --> 00:18:19,240 Speaker 1: we've we've had so many copycats since we've launched. It's 358 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:21,320 Speaker 1: been mind blowing. And I want to say there's north 359 00:18:21,359 --> 00:18:24,439 Speaker 1: of twenty at least, um, and they cropped up at 360 00:18:24,480 --> 00:18:27,520 Speaker 1: a regular, on a regular basis. But when the world's 361 00:18:27,560 --> 00:18:30,359 Speaker 1: you know, one of the world's most valuable companies does it, 362 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 1: and what we sort of thought was it was a 363 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,280 Speaker 1: little bit of an unfair way. Um, we were disappointed. 364 00:18:36,320 --> 00:18:39,280 Speaker 1: And more importantly, I think it comes aided pretty closely 365 00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:43,280 Speaker 1: with you know, some of the urgency that that consumers 366 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,119 Speaker 1: and customers are feeling around the environment and sustainability. And 367 00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:48,879 Speaker 1: they copy the design and they don't copy our materials, 368 00:18:49,520 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: and so we're thinking, Okay, we're fear is fear copy 369 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:54,760 Speaker 1: of the design. But you know what would be really 370 00:18:54,800 --> 00:18:57,040 Speaker 1: great is if you copied, you copied the spirit of 371 00:18:57,119 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: what we're doing. And in fact, Joey, your partner post 372 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:03,160 Speaker 1: did an open letter on Medium to Amazon last month. 373 00:19:03,400 --> 00:19:07,399 Speaker 1: He invited the company to steal your sustainability practices, not 374 00:19:07,560 --> 00:19:12,040 Speaker 1: just your designs, and and are you optimistic that they'll 375 00:19:12,080 --> 00:19:14,600 Speaker 1: take you up on that? And one person asked me 376 00:19:14,680 --> 00:19:16,920 Speaker 1: to ask you if you've ever heard from Jeff Bezos 377 00:19:16,960 --> 00:19:21,080 Speaker 1: after he stole your shoe. Uh, we haven't, but we 378 00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: hope to. And genuinely, I mean, our souls are made 379 00:19:25,320 --> 00:19:28,240 Speaker 1: from sugar cane, and when we launched that material innovation, 380 00:19:28,320 --> 00:19:30,359 Speaker 1: we made an open source so that everyone could use it. 381 00:19:30,600 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 1: In fact, I think that's an interesting point, tim that 382 00:19:33,280 --> 00:19:37,120 Speaker 1: you share your innovation with anyone, because you would love 383 00:19:37,520 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: a lot of people to use these techniques and other 384 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: shoes and other products in general. Absolutely, and we do 385 00:19:44,000 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 1: that not just because we're good guys. Although we completely 386 00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 1: understand that the topic or the challenge of sustainability is 387 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:53,320 Speaker 1: not going to be solved by all birds, or even 388 00:19:53,400 --> 00:19:55,440 Speaker 1: by one brand. It's going to be solved by lots 389 00:19:55,480 --> 00:19:58,159 Speaker 1: of companies sharing best practice and working together, and so 390 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,840 Speaker 1: we've understood that it's been foundational. But we also know 391 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:03,040 Speaker 1: is that this new material, the more people that use that, 392 00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: the cheaper it would become. And that's what's happened. And 393 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:08,600 Speaker 1: there's now twenty companies I believe, planning to use this 394 00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,160 Speaker 1: material this year. So you know, we sort of said, 395 00:20:11,359 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 1: Mr Mr Bezos and Amazon, why don't you use that too? 396 00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:17,120 Speaker 1: That would be great. And so that was the source 397 00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:20,680 Speaker 1: of Joey's litter and and and it went, well, you've 398 00:20:20,720 --> 00:20:25,600 Speaker 1: got sixteen retail stores worldwide and you're opening up twenty 399 00:20:25,680 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 1: new retail locations. I guess, yeah, correct, it's really exciting 400 00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:32,520 Speaker 1: and retail has been phenomenal for us. That's so interesting 401 00:20:32,640 --> 00:20:36,320 Speaker 1: because you know that's other people are going the other direction, 402 00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,080 Speaker 1: right uh and not opening up I guess there's a 403 00:20:39,160 --> 00:20:42,040 Speaker 1: combination of what people are doing with bricks and mortar 404 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,280 Speaker 1: stores versus online shopping. But you feel like you want 405 00:20:45,359 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: people to have this kind of experience of seeing the 406 00:20:48,520 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 1: actual products absolutely and feeling them. Everyone. You know that 407 00:20:52,200 --> 00:20:55,080 Speaker 1: the myth about retail dying or being did I think 408 00:20:55,119 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: has been great greatly exaggerated and um, you know, particularly 409 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:00,920 Speaker 1: in the case of shoes. Everyone's got a childhood memory 410 00:21:00,960 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: of going to a shoe store and trying on shoes 411 00:21:04,359 --> 00:21:06,040 Speaker 1: with that metal device that no one knows the name of, 412 00:21:06,520 --> 00:21:08,639 Speaker 1: and um, you know, and so we always wanted we 413 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:12,119 Speaker 1: always wanted to get Yeah, no one knows, no one 414 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,720 Speaker 1: knows the thing, um and uh, and so we always 415 00:21:15,800 --> 00:21:17,280 Speaker 1: knew we wanted to do it. I think we've been 416 00:21:17,359 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 1: blown away by just how much our customers have wanted 417 00:21:21,800 --> 00:21:24,119 Speaker 1: to come and experience and touch the product and then 418 00:21:24,160 --> 00:21:26,600 Speaker 1: ask really really deep questions. And then the other thing 419 00:21:26,680 --> 00:21:30,760 Speaker 1: that's been amazing is, you know, the real innovation opportunity 420 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:33,200 Speaker 1: is were the people that work and retail, who for 421 00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: the most part, are not treated all that well. And 422 00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:38,159 Speaker 1: so you know, we've tried to really think about the 423 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: training and and and and investing in the people that 424 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,840 Speaker 1: work for us in stores. And that's just an amazing 425 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 1: opportunity that we're just beginning to uncover. And we're excited 426 00:21:45,320 --> 00:21:47,280 Speaker 1: about the sixteen stores and the twenty more that will 427 00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: add and um, you know, the opportunity to make working 428 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:52,520 Speaker 1: at all birds retail something that people are really proud of. 429 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:56,080 Speaker 1: So workplace culture is clearly really, really important to you. 430 00:21:56,160 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: And before we came out, you were talking about how 431 00:21:58,480 --> 00:22:02,560 Speaker 1: difficult it is, especially as you grow and expand and 432 00:22:02,720 --> 00:22:04,639 Speaker 1: more more and more people are working for you. What 433 00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:08,720 Speaker 1: about four nine? Now, yeah, it's it's somewhere something somewhere 434 00:22:08,720 --> 00:22:11,360 Speaker 1: around there, And yeah, it's it's I mean, we've we've 435 00:22:11,560 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: you always have little speed mumps, and you know, I 436 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 1: think it was it was. It was easy in some 437 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:17,920 Speaker 1: ways when you knew everyone's name and you knew their 438 00:22:17,960 --> 00:22:19,760 Speaker 1: families and knew what was going on and you knew 439 00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:23,440 Speaker 1: Steve was breaking up with his girlfriend or you know, 440 00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:25,879 Speaker 1: whatever it was. And then when it gets bigger, it 441 00:22:26,040 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 1: just how do you scale the things that you as 442 00:22:28,560 --> 00:22:32,120 Speaker 1: founders think are really important and share those messages um 443 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:34,920 Speaker 1: and create the kind of culture that when we you know, 444 00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:37,040 Speaker 1: with twenty five people in Shanghai and and officuely there, 445 00:22:37,080 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 1: how you know, how do they take what we think 446 00:22:39,000 --> 00:22:40,840 Speaker 1: is important but shape it into their own version of 447 00:22:40,880 --> 00:22:43,360 Speaker 1: what's important. And I'd be lying if I said We've 448 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,159 Speaker 1: got that all worked out. But you know what I 449 00:22:45,240 --> 00:22:47,560 Speaker 1: do know is if if you get that but right, 450 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:50,040 Speaker 1: even over and above the product and the innovation, the design, 451 00:22:50,080 --> 00:22:51,760 Speaker 1: you go a long way to being successful. So we 452 00:22:51,840 --> 00:22:54,440 Speaker 1: think a lot about it, albeit with many answers that 453 00:22:54,480 --> 00:22:58,879 Speaker 1: we don't yet have. Before I let Tim go, I 454 00:22:59,000 --> 00:23:03,160 Speaker 1: asked him if he had any advice for aspiring entrepreneurs 455 00:23:03,240 --> 00:23:08,000 Speaker 1: out there, and his answer was, well, pretty honest. I 456 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,000 Speaker 1: think that this entrepreneurship has been sort of romanticized. It 457 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 1: think it's normally enormously difficult, and I've been very, very lucky. 458 00:23:13,960 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 1: And I talk about my family because I've lean on 459 00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,639 Speaker 1: them to get this, you know, get this off the ground. 460 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:20,720 Speaker 1: And it's hard. So I would be careful what you 461 00:23:20,760 --> 00:23:22,800 Speaker 1: wish for. It would be my first piece of advice, 462 00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: and the second will be that's not very encouraging. I 463 00:23:25,640 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 1: just I want to be honest about it, and I 464 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:30,800 Speaker 1: think it's it's there's a kind of a cult of entrepreneurship, 465 00:23:30,920 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 1: and I think only some emerging issues even to understand, 466 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:38,240 Speaker 1: you know, um, some of the wellness issues around it, 467 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:40,600 Speaker 1: because it's it's a really challenging thing to do. And 468 00:23:41,080 --> 00:23:43,720 Speaker 1: so I just I'll start with that one. That being said, 469 00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 1: you know, I go and put it out there, UM 470 00:23:48,920 --> 00:23:52,679 Speaker 1: be vulnerable. See if it's going to work, UM trust 471 00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 1: that if it's weird and everyone's questioning the validity of 472 00:23:56,720 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 1: the idea, You're probably on the right track. And if 473 00:23:58,720 --> 00:24:02,360 Speaker 1: they're telling you that it's awesome, stop right now. Well. 474 00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:06,720 Speaker 1: Tim Brown, CEO co CEO of Alberts, thank you so 475 00:24:06,880 --> 00:24:10,000 Speaker 1: much for coming in and having this conversation with all 476 00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,720 Speaker 1: of us today, and congratulations on all your success. Thank you. 477 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,119 Speaker 1: It's been a pleasure to be here, and thank you 478 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: for going for going easy on me. Appreciate it. Thank you. Okay, 479 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,960 Speaker 1: and that does it for this bonus episode. Thanks so 480 00:24:28,080 --> 00:24:31,680 Speaker 1: much for listening everyone. I'll be continuing the special Next 481 00:24:31,800 --> 00:24:35,280 Speaker 1: Question Live series throughout the year as I host more 482 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,200 Speaker 1: innovators and business leaders here in our New York City offices. 483 00:24:39,880 --> 00:24:41,960 Speaker 1: If there are folks you really want to hear from, 484 00:24:42,400 --> 00:24:45,480 Speaker 1: leave me a message at eight four four four seven 485 00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:49,960 Speaker 1: nine seven eight eight three. That number again is eight 486 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:54,200 Speaker 1: four four four seven nine seven eight eight three, or 487 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:57,680 Speaker 1: you can email me at info at Katie correct dot com. 488 00:24:58,240 --> 00:25:01,480 Speaker 1: Just put next Question in the s jackline and who knows, 489 00:25:01,960 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: maybe your question will be the one I answer in 490 00:25:05,040 --> 00:25:08,440 Speaker 1: our podcast feed. And speaking of which, I'm excited to 491 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: let you all know that Season two of Next Question 492 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:15,800 Speaker 1: will be launching next week on Thursday, January. We're starting 493 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:19,760 Speaker 1: off strong with a timely episode with playwright Heidi Shrek 494 00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,560 Speaker 1: on the Equal Rights Amendment and why the Constitution is 495 00:25:23,720 --> 00:25:27,960 Speaker 1: long overdue to make room for equality. So make sure 496 00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,080 Speaker 1: you subscribe on Apple podcast, the I Heart Radio app, 497 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,800 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows in the meantime. 498 00:25:34,840 --> 00:25:37,200 Speaker 1: If you're feeling overwhelmed by the news, check out my 499 00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:40,360 Speaker 1: morning newsletter wake Up Call. Go to Katie correct dot 500 00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:43,720 Speaker 1: com or follow me on your go to social media source. 501 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:47,280 Speaker 1: Because I am everywhere people. Until next time and my 502 00:25:47,440 --> 00:25:56,200 Speaker 1: Next Question, I'm Katie Couric. Next Question with Katie Couric 503 00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,960 Speaker 1: is a production of I Heart Radio and Katie Currek Media. 504 00:25:59,560 --> 00:26:03,040 Speaker 1: The exact producers are Katie Kurik, Courtney Litz, and Tyler Klang. 505 00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: The supervising producer is Lauren Hansen. Our show producer is 506 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:12,160 Speaker 1: Bethan Macaluso. The associate producers are Emily Pinto and Derek Clements. 507 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: Editing by Derrek Clements, Dylan Fagin and Lowell Berlante, Mixing 508 00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:22,119 Speaker 1: by Dylan Fagin. Our researcher is Gabriel Loser. For more 509 00:26:22,160 --> 00:26:25,240 Speaker 1: information on today's episode, go to Katie Kurik dot com 510 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,359 Speaker 1: and follow us on Twitter and Instagram at Katie Currik. 511 00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:34,399 Speaker 1: For more podcasts for My Heart Radio, visit the I 512 00:26:34,520 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 513 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.