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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of Thinking Sideways. I'm your host, Joe,
Speaker 1: joined as always by Steve and your other host Devin. Yeah,
Speaker 1: Joe is not the only host. Yeah, he's the host
Speaker 1: this week I oh sorry. Yeah, okay, well I guess
Speaker 1: you know what's really going on in the back of
Speaker 1: my head. Uh, he's been reading about this story too long. Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: well here we go. Yeah, I totally want to see
Speaker 1: the podcast all for me. Yeah. This week we're gonna
Speaker 1: talk about a fun disappearance that a lot of people
Speaker 1: think was a murder. And that's a guy in Australian
Speaker 1: named Bob Chappell. His name is spelled Chappelle, but it's
Speaker 1: pronounced Chapel. Apparently. He disappeared January nine in West Hobart, Australia,
Speaker 1: which is in tess India, which, if you don't know,
Speaker 1: is an island off the south coast of the Australian mainland.
Speaker 1: It's part of Australia. And uh. The story was suggested
Speaker 1: by our listeners Lucil and Renee, who no doubt or
Speaker 1: Tasmanian themselves, because the story, as it turns out, as
Speaker 1: a really big deal in Tasmania and actually Australia in general,
Speaker 1: even though a lot of Americans maybe have not heard
Speaker 1: of it. But it's big down there, is it is ongoing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: now you're gonna know all about this story. America Europe, Pakistan,
Speaker 1: you name it. So Bob Chapel when he went missing
Speaker 1: in two thousand nine, Bob was living with a woman
Speaker 1: named Sue Neil Fraser, who was now in prison for murder. Uh.
Speaker 1: And Bob and Sue had been together about eighteen years
Speaker 1: when Bob disappeared, and according to some people, will the
Speaker 1: the fun had gone out of the relationship. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: does tend to happen to a lot of relationships. It
Speaker 1: does happen, yes, So, but that of course made her
Speaker 1: kind of a candidate is a suspect for murder, you know,
Speaker 1: typically know, it's not unusual, right uh like, But like said,
Speaker 1: a ton of people in Tasmania thinks she's innocent and
Speaker 1: that her conviction for Bob's murder was a huge miscarriage
Speaker 1: of justice. And there's a big campaign going on to
Speaker 1: find information to exonerate Sue. The kinds of court appeals
Speaker 1: one of what's just happened as a matter of fact.
Speaker 1: Uh yeah, And you probably if you go out look,
Speaker 1: you'll find you'll see that billboard that's got that picture
Speaker 1: of Sue and it says reward forty dollars for information. Yeah,
Speaker 1: now proving the innocence of Souon Neil Neil Fraser and uh, yeah, anyway,
Speaker 1: we'll talk about how the whole appeal thing played out here,
Speaker 1: but let me give you a little more background for so,
Speaker 1: this kind of kind of violates our five year old
Speaker 1: but well over five years. But you know, I picked
Speaker 1: the story, and I and everything, and then I and
Speaker 1: then after I go out to do my research, I
Speaker 1: suddenly realized, Oh, all this new stuff happening, And whenever
Speaker 1: you do a search, all these new links pop up. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and technically he's over the limit, but luckily no, nothing
Speaker 1: conclusive came about, which is why we're still talking about Yeah. Uh,
Speaker 1: and so who knows. I mean, maybe she's still in
Speaker 1: prison now, but who knows, maybe spring in one of
Speaker 1: these days, or she'll finish your sentences and just get
Speaker 1: out of prison. With our luck, like two days before
Speaker 1: we drop this conclusively, somebody will confess. Uh. Well, anyway,
Speaker 1: back to the back to the beginning here, Bob and
Speaker 1: Sue were both divorced with kids. I think he had three,
Speaker 1: she had too, and I think the kids were grown
Speaker 1: by the time this happened. And I believe Bob and
Speaker 1: Sue had been a thank for about eighteen years when
Speaker 1: Bob finally shuffled off the stage. And I'm putting it
Speaker 1: that way because actually nobody really knows what happened to Bob.
Speaker 1: Now you just vanished. Everybody assumes he's dead, which includes
Speaker 1: the police, the courts, his family, friends. Yeah, but maybe not.
Speaker 1: But nobody was ever found. Um, so there's actually not
Speaker 1: on a percent rocks actually that very big void in
Speaker 1: evidence for what the heck happened to him. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: interestingly enough, nobody was found. No murder weapon was found. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I know, And so it's interesting that police managed to
Speaker 1: get a conviction out of this out of this movie. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but in two thousand eight, that just months before this happened.
Speaker 1: Soon and Bob bought themselves a nice big boat, a
Speaker 1: fifty three ft catch called the Four Winds, which actually
Speaker 1: I've seen photos of it, just really nice. What what's
Speaker 1: the catch catches A is like it's a two masted sailboat,
Speaker 1: but it's it's the tall mast is in front and
Speaker 1: the short mast is in the rear of the boat,
Speaker 1: the stern. That's a catch. And there's also the y'all
Speaker 1: just a similar able to y'all that the aftmatches stepped
Speaker 1: a little further back and it's smaller, so there's a difference. Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1: Unfortunately everybody in podcast Land couldn't see Joe's defining hand es.
Speaker 1: He was also looking very concerned at me, like, I'm concerned.
Speaker 1: You don't understand this already? Do you not know what
Speaker 1: this is? I mean, you're about to buy a boat
Speaker 1: a right, And actually, okay, for the sailing purists out there,
Speaker 1: that the station between the catch and y'all is the y'all.
Speaker 1: The mast is stepped behind the steering station and the
Speaker 1: catch is stepped in front of the steering station. You're
Speaker 1: just showing off now, okay, alright, that's that's how you
Speaker 1: tell the difference between the two. Okay. But they bought
Speaker 1: it in Queensland, which is on the northeast coast of Australia,
Speaker 1: quite a way from Tasmania, and they had ideas for
Speaker 1: the boat about retiring doing a lot of sailing. They
Speaker 1: were planning maybe a dream trip of sailing around Australia
Speaker 1: and about the last fate intervened they never took that trip.
Speaker 1: When they were in Queensland after they bought the boat,
Speaker 1: they hired two crew members to help them sail to
Speaker 1: Hobart and their names were Peter Stevenson and David Cassan,
Speaker 1: And presumably that's because they were unfamiliar with the boat,
Speaker 1: and these guys they had some sailing experience. I know,
Speaker 1: Sue at least had owned a fairly decent sized sailboat previously,
Speaker 1: and I think, you know, and so presumably and that
Speaker 1: was while they were together, so presumably he picked up
Speaker 1: a lot of experience sailing on that. And so I'm
Speaker 1: guessing it was kind of a you know better and
Speaker 1: this is a bit of a training run for us. Yeah,
Speaker 1: well probably, yeah. I don't know how big the previous
Speaker 1: but it was obviously a fifty foot catches is kind
Speaker 1: of bigger and harder to handle than a little twenty
Speaker 1: six foot sloop or something like that. And it's been
Speaker 1: a couple of years, you know. Or maybe maybe they
Speaker 1: just wanted a couple of extra hands so they could
Speaker 1: actually catch some sleep. Also, pod it could be that
Speaker 1: would definitely make for some wider work. Yeah, But they
Speaker 1: hired these two guys, and then unfortunately Bob had us
Speaker 1: a few medical issues and wind up checking into the
Speaker 1: hospital for a little bit, and he decided to fly
Speaker 1: back to Hobart, while soon the crew sailed the boat back.
Speaker 1: And as for Hobart that it is on the southeast
Speaker 1: coast of Tasman, you know what, on what's called the
Speaker 1: River Derwent. And I'm no doubt mispronouncing that. Probably maybe
Speaker 1: it's maybe that Australians called it the Darwin or something
Speaker 1: like that or the door Winner. I don't know. Uh,
Speaker 1: somebody send me an email. Yeah, exactly, UHO. And where
Speaker 1: Hobart is, it's on the River Derwood, but it's kind
Speaker 1: of more of a big inlet there. It's huge. It's
Speaker 1: wide near the sea where they had an anchor's off
Speaker 1: battery point in the Hobart in the river on the
Speaker 1: west side of the river. And of course when they
Speaker 1: bought the boat and had a few issues, which is
Speaker 1: not a surprise boats usually do, and it was a
Speaker 1: used boat. Boats are holes in the water that you
Speaker 1: throw money in. Oh hell yeah, And it could have
Speaker 1: been one of the things that placed a little rain
Speaker 1: on their relationship. They do that. And I know, Steve,
Speaker 1: you're going to like a little project right now, let's
Speaker 1: place a little strain on your It is a little project,
Speaker 1: but it just turned into a big project. The dots. Ye,
Speaker 1: just thrown the old one and start over, just sell
Speaker 1: it and buy something. Yeah. But the boat had had
Speaker 1: some work done before leaving Queensland and uh. And then
Speaker 1: of course after getting on homeboard, it needed some more
Speaker 1: work done. And of course in the last day that
Speaker 1: he was seeing Bob Chapel was on the four winds
Speaker 1: working on the boat, or at least that's what he
Speaker 1: said to Sue. Well, and of course if it needed work,
Speaker 1: then it would make sense that you would just go
Speaker 1: and work on the boat. Yeah, if you got the
Speaker 1: time and you want to retire on it. Yeah, I
Speaker 1: don't take around about it. Yeah. And and besides which
Speaker 1: this is your dream boat. You want to get the
Speaker 1: thing all ship shape no pun intended, and have it
Speaker 1: all ready to go. And so you gotta get that
Speaker 1: stuff taken care of. And so Bob was working away
Speaker 1: and on the morning of twenty six January, Sue visited Bob,
Speaker 1: and the yacht left late morning to go and have
Speaker 1: lunch with a friend. Turns out the friend was his
Speaker 1: daughter and sound chews. Yeah, Bob's daughter Caroline and Sanchez.
Speaker 1: I think she goes away an uh and sorry, Sue
Speaker 1: was going to have lunch with her. Yeah, Sue what
Speaker 1: to have lunch with her, and they met at the
Speaker 1: Royal Yacht Club, which is actually right where it was anchored. Anyway,
Speaker 1: it was anchored off shore. I assume they didn't have
Speaker 1: a slip at the Royal Yacht Club, even though I
Speaker 1: think they were members and their privileges. But it looks
Speaker 1: like it's all full. If you look at the arials,
Speaker 1: it's all full, and there's literally dozens of yachts anchored
Speaker 1: offshore from it. So I assume there's a waiting list
Speaker 1: to get into the Royal Yacht Club. That's why they
Speaker 1: had their boat moored out way out in the river, yeah,
Speaker 1: instead of you know, I'm a slip. Yeah. During but
Speaker 1: during this lunch, and Sanchez took a photo which was
Speaker 1: later used as evidence against Sue. We'll hear about that later.
Speaker 1: But then later on about mid afternoon, she returned to
Speaker 1: the boat, uh and she told police that she had
Speaker 1: an argument with Bob, and Bob told her he wanted
Speaker 1: to stay on the yacht overnight, so she took the
Speaker 1: dinghy and their dinghy, by the way, it was an
Speaker 1: inflatable craft kind of like his Zodiac, big rubber boat.
Speaker 1: Big rubber boat. It's kind of the pontoons. Just got
Speaker 1: the flat transome in the back of the headache and
Speaker 1: had an outboard on it. So she takes the dinghy
Speaker 1: back to shore, which left Bob stranded on the odd
Speaker 1: Over nine. And this was the last time that Sue
Speaker 1: saw Bob at least potentially, Yeah, potentially maybe uh. And
Speaker 1: she was questioned later and told police about leaving him
Speaker 1: stranded on the yacht, and she said she thought it
Speaker 1: was safe to ly Bob on the yacht without the
Speaker 1: dinghy because she said he was not actually good at
Speaker 1: getting in and out of it on his own, and
Speaker 1: apparently she was worried he might screw up and fall
Speaker 1: into the water and drown. I don't know, Well, was
Speaker 1: that because he was just kind of clumsy at it,
Speaker 1: or is it because of like a medical issue, because
Speaker 1: he'd had the medical issues that prevented him from, you know,
Speaker 1: coming from with the boat home. So yeah, I had
Speaker 1: never I had never heard it said exactly why it
Speaker 1: was she was concerned about his abilities for getting out, wondered,
Speaker 1: as I did all the reading and couldn't figure it out.
Speaker 1: Presumably because they had been married eighteen years and she
Speaker 1: knew that rods are, that they had been together for
Speaker 1: eighteen years, and that she kind of thought, well, he's
Speaker 1: kind of an idiot, and I hate him, I know,
Speaker 1: I despised him. He was just incompetence. She's just so everything.
Speaker 1: But uh, and of course some people contradicted that. There
Speaker 1: were other people who said, no, we saw him get
Speaker 1: in and out of it all the time off the goat,
Speaker 1: and he had no problem at all doing it. It
Speaker 1: was only when Sue was around drugging him that crazy.
Speaker 1: When got back to shore from her visit with Bob
Speaker 1: on the boat, she tied the dingy to a ladder
Speaker 1: at the Royal Yacht Club. She said she tied her
Speaker 1: usual away with three knots. I don't know what those
Speaker 1: three knots were, but she said that it had never
Speaker 1: come undone before, so of course it came un done naturally.
Speaker 1: Of course, of course, Yeah, yes, it comes undone overnight
Speaker 1: or somebody untied it. Uh. The evidence indicates actually that
Speaker 1: somebody did untied because the painter that you know, sailors
Speaker 1: are they gonna call everything a different name. So that's
Speaker 1: like with seven hundred names for ice. Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: In three thousand thirty seven for snow. Yes, But anyway,
Speaker 1: so the painter, which is a rope that's tied to
Speaker 1: the front of the boat, he tied to the dock
Speaker 1: with and it was found inside the dinghy and not
Speaker 1: trailing in the water as it would have benefited at
Speaker 1: the nicam. And then so somebody undid those knots and
Speaker 1: tossed it in the boat and tossed the rope in
Speaker 1: the boat sometime overnight, someone who was bad at staging things,
Speaker 1: apparently at five forty am the next morning, that would
Speaker 1: be January, an unnamed person I'd never I'm sure if
Speaker 1: i'd gone through right three articles I could have found
Speaker 1: this guy's name. I don't know that it matters, not really.
Speaker 1: But somebody found the dinghy bobbing against the rocks untied.
Speaker 1: He secured it and then headed out into the water
Speaker 1: and a boat with somebody else who also I don't
Speaker 1: have his name, and they happened to pass nearby the
Speaker 1: four Winds, and they noticed that it was very low
Speaker 1: in the water. Convenient. Can I ask a question, yea,
Speaker 1: this is probably stupid question, but do the dinghy's usually
Speaker 1: have the name of the ship that they're so the
Speaker 1: boat they're associated with them. You know, it depends on
Speaker 1: how much money and how just how how you know,
Speaker 1: and how big the boat is and everything like that.
Speaker 1: So the dinghy is big enough, like you know, obviously,
Speaker 1: the bigger the yacht, the bigger the dinghy, you know, right,
Speaker 1: And that is one gets to a certain point. Wait
Speaker 1: are you talking about the owner or the thing that
Speaker 1: floats to the water and wait, yeah, good point. But
Speaker 1: but yeah, typically, I mean the larger boats, a lot
Speaker 1: of them do have they're labeled one way or another.
Speaker 1: But this one was labeled. No. I've seen pictures of
Speaker 1: this one, and I had not seen typically, I don't
Speaker 1: think people paint the boat name on an inflatable raft anyway, well,
Speaker 1: you know, sharpie or something, just so you know who's Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, I just I just think there's probably a
Speaker 1: lot of dinghies on you know. That's a good point.
Speaker 1: You would expect everybody just know which one is there,
Speaker 1: you know, And but I might not have Sharpie on it. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: but this one, I've seen a few pictures of it.
Speaker 1: I saw no signs of any any labeling whatsoever other
Speaker 1: than a brand name that was on the side of it.
Speaker 1: So they just happened to pass by the Four Winds.
Speaker 1: But yeah, they just these guys happened to pass by
Speaker 1: the Four Winds. They noticed it's really low in the water,
Speaker 1: alarmingly low, so they stopped, climbed the board. Noticed there
Speaker 1: was still a little bit of blood and a few
Speaker 1: things like a you know, bloody knife, a few things
Speaker 1: like that laying around. So they called the police. Uh.
Speaker 1: The police phoned Sue at Bob and sus house at
Speaker 1: seven eleven am on January that told her they've gotten
Speaker 1: report that their boat was sinking. So Sue gets to
Speaker 1: the car and heads down to the Royal Yacht Club.
Speaker 1: And when she shows up and and police showed up
Speaker 1: and boarded the Four Winds, they noticed, for some clue,
Speaker 1: blood on the steps leading down into the salon, a
Speaker 1: knife on the floor of the wheelhouse, a flashlight with
Speaker 1: blood on it. But no Bob Bob was gone. Of course,
Speaker 1: the boat was still low in the water and sinking
Speaker 1: because it turns out that a pipe to the forward
Speaker 1: head had been cut. It was a plastic pipe, so
Speaker 1: you know, you know, nautical toilet. Sorry, they don't don't
Speaker 1: use good water to flush the toilet. They just in
Speaker 1: water from outside to flush the toilet. And that's really
Speaker 1: so somebody cut that pipe which let water into the boat.
Speaker 1: So it's an intake line that is now bleeding into
Speaker 1: the interior of the boat. Yeah. And also it turns
Speaker 1: out there was a sea cock that was underneath the
Speaker 1: floor ring in the forward part of the boat, I
Speaker 1: should say the bow. It had been opened also. And
Speaker 1: also sea cock is just a it's like a get
Speaker 1: of the plug in your bathtub basically, it's that. Yeah. Sorry,
Speaker 1: we're just using a lot of body terms, and I
Speaker 1: feel like our listeners some of them no body terms,
Speaker 1: but very good point. Now seacock is there, and normally
Speaker 1: would seemed like kind of a dangerous thing to have,
Speaker 1: but when you haul the boat out of the water
Speaker 1: and you've got water in the villages, it's nice to
Speaker 1: be able to open something up in yeah, really heavy. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and pulling a boat out of the water full of
Speaker 1: water will actually make it tear itself apart. It's not
Speaker 1: meant to sustain the water that it can be kind
Speaker 1: of hard on things. Yeah. Oh, and also, last of all,
Speaker 1: the builage pump had been shut up. Yeah, and so well,
Speaker 1: so the one means to pump the water back out
Speaker 1: has now been defaulted. Yeah, so somebody. So, somebody obviously
Speaker 1: had sabotaged the boat, right looks that way to me anyway.
Speaker 1: At some point the first time Sue was on the
Speaker 1: boat with the police. I don't know if she was
Speaker 1: with them the first time they boardered it or maybe
Speaker 1: later in the day, but she knows some rub barks
Speaker 1: on the wooden surrounds of the main hatch of the
Speaker 1: yacht and that main hatches to the entrance to the
Speaker 1: lower deck. Yeah, yeah, and just exactly, that's the one
Speaker 1: that's kind of half door half hatch, you know, the
Speaker 1: kind of talking about when there's a little door on
Speaker 1: the front, then there's a hatch on top that slides
Speaker 1: back so you don't bang your head. This is like
Speaker 1: what we're talking about in the Jim Gray episode. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: Uh So she noticed some some rub barks on that
Speaker 1: which were kind of inconspicuous. She said, they had not
Speaker 1: been there before, and the police noticed there were also
Speaker 1: fibers in the marks that appeared to be from a rope.
Speaker 1: And also they I don't know if they noticed this
Speaker 1: because there was an empty bracket or a suit pointed
Speaker 1: it out, but the most fire extinguisher was missing as well,
Speaker 1: and it was apparently a large, very large, heavy model
Speaker 1: fire extinguisher. It was gone. Okay, yeah, and so also
Speaker 1: checking for evidence around and stuff. The police looked at
Speaker 1: the dinghy. They checked it with loomin All. You know,
Speaker 1: lumin all, you spray that on it, and blood activates it,
Speaker 1: makes it glow under a black light, and of course
Speaker 1: just has a lot of defenders. And suit pointed out
Speaker 1: other things besides blood can activate loomin all and make
Speaker 1: it glow. So but but apparently they sprayed some lumin
Speaker 1: All on the bottom of the dinghy, and well a
Speaker 1: lot of it glowed like a yeah kind of um
Speaker 1: so sorry, maybe I'm confused. The two guys unnamed find
Speaker 1: the dinghy, they get in the dinghy, No, it's it
Speaker 1: just said that the guy that found it secured it.
Speaker 1: And I don't know if that means he just tied
Speaker 1: it to something or that means he drug for some reason.
Speaker 1: I thought they hopped in it. I think he just
Speaker 1: saw it secured it. And then they went out on
Speaker 1: his boat and then they board the four Winds and
Speaker 1: apparently don't disrupt the crime scene. Well, and that's another thing.
Speaker 1: That's as far as I know, they did board it.
Speaker 1: At least in one account I've heard they boarded it,
Speaker 1: and then one of those was actually a court accounts,
Speaker 1: so probably accurate. But then in other accounts I've heard
Speaker 1: that they actually just looked and they yelled and nobody
Speaker 1: would nobody seemed to be home, and then they called police,
Speaker 1: maybe from a cell phone in their own in the boat.
Speaker 1: So maybe they didn't actually board it. Maybe they just
Speaker 1: pulled alongside and uh called the police. Okay. And to
Speaker 1: go back to your statement about luminal, Yeah, the other things,
Speaker 1: what I mean, are they other things that might naturally
Speaker 1: be in a dinghy that would no, not necessarily yeah,
Speaker 1: that would light up a luminal but apparently yeah, I
Speaker 1: can't remember. I looked. I checked out the the Wikipedia
Speaker 1: page about it, and there's a lot of different substances.
Speaker 1: I think that anything that has iron in it, for example,
Speaker 1: like blood has iron, So any anything that would have
Speaker 1: iron in it, you know, would would definitely kind of said,
Speaker 1: But not anything that would naturally just be all over
Speaker 1: the RV a tinny uh, unless they were like gutting
Speaker 1: fish in there at one point. Probably not now, I
Speaker 1: don't know how, I don't even think would do it. Yeah,
Speaker 1: really stupid example. I just want to clarify those two things. Sorry. Good. Yeah,
Speaker 1: so it's something that appeared to be blood, but there's
Speaker 1: but you know, it should be stated for for sake
Speaker 1: of fairness, that it wasn't actually totally proven to be blood. Yeah,
Speaker 1: just presumed. Yeah, just presumed to be blood. And by
Speaker 1: the way, I still know Bob, he didn't even leave
Speaker 1: it out. Long story short, though, the police looked into it,
Speaker 1: and after an eight month investigation, which included lots of
Speaker 1: forensic examination of the boat and Dinghy, lots of interrogations
Speaker 1: as Sue and and also bugging Sue's house for a while,
Speaker 1: and also interviewing everybody she knew, she was arrested, charged
Speaker 1: with murdering Bob Chappell, and after a trial, she was
Speaker 1: sentenced to twenty eight years in prison. But I think
Speaker 1: that was when she was sentenced with the possibility of
Speaker 1: parole after eighteen years. It was reduced on appeal later
Speaker 1: to twenty three years thirteen possibility of parole. So it's
Speaker 1: with a lot of what people would call her rather
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence. Yeah, it was a pretty circumstantial case. It
Speaker 1: really was. Again, no murder weapon, nobody, So did she
Speaker 1: murder Bob? Did somebody else murder Bob? Not? Everybody agrees
Speaker 1: on this. Uh uh, Like I said, nobody, no weapon.
Speaker 1: Although the prosecution things that Sue Batch is heading with
Speaker 1: a wrench, nobody actually knows what the murder weapon was.
Speaker 1: So maybe they were dancing his head that kind of
Speaker 1: That's right, nobody, what're saying? Yeah, yeah, no real smoking gun.
Speaker 1: And when by that, I mean there was no one
Speaker 1: thing that really incriminated Sue. It was just a lot
Speaker 1: of little things that added up. But before I get
Speaker 1: into Sue's guilt of innocence, I'm sure you all want
Speaker 1: to know what happened to the boat? Did it? Say? Well, no,
Speaker 1: did you find a new home? Yeah? Well I'm sure
Speaker 1: it has by now. Yeah, we bought it around the
Speaker 1: world tour. It was taken. It's gonna be a disaster.
Speaker 1: Oh god. Now would kill each other? I mean to
Speaker 1: be the question, you know, like who murdered Stephen Devon
Speaker 1: and I would say yeah I was, I was asleep, man,
Speaker 1: But the uh or maybe whom Hubert or Joe and
Speaker 1: you guys would be like, oh yeah, oh back to
Speaker 1: our thing though. It was towed to a nearby dock
Speaker 1: called Constitution Dock that's just kind of northwest of there,
Speaker 1: uh and north of the club. Uh. And it was
Speaker 1: kept there for a few days and I think the
Speaker 1: leaks were stopped and everything. Um. January, it was taken
Speaker 1: to a place called Clean Lift Marine and hauled out
Speaker 1: of the river for inspection. Clean Lifting ries about maybe
Speaker 1: five miles north of there on the river, and on
Speaker 1: January the police were going over it, the forensics guys,
Speaker 1: and a swab was taken from the boat on the
Speaker 1: starboard deck about the midships which had DNA from an
Speaker 1: unknown female. Yeah, didn't match anything in the police databay.
Speaker 1: But then about six weeks later, a fifteen year old
Speaker 1: homeless girl named Megan Voss had a run in with police.
Speaker 1: A sample liber DNA was taken and put in the
Speaker 1: database and presto, like that little bell in Jeopardy. Yeah yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: uh so Megan Voss's DNA it was on the four winds.
Speaker 1: And this is this has been a big deal to
Speaker 1: this day people, or I mean she was I saw
Speaker 1: a picture. Ever, she was in court just a few
Speaker 1: months ago about this whole issue. So it's still a
Speaker 1: big deal to a lot of people. Uh, we'll talk
Speaker 1: more about that in a bit. And they also found
Speaker 1: another piece of unidentified DNA on the boat and it
Speaker 1: has never been identified, which shouldn't come as a total
Speaker 1: surprise because according to the police, at least twenty one
Speaker 1: people had been on the boat between the time it
Speaker 1: was found sinking and when the DNA samples were taken
Speaker 1: three days later. And that's not County forensics personnel, by
Speaker 1: the way. And of course people had I'm sure been
Speaker 1: on the boat before. You know, there were people that
Speaker 1: were guests or friends or whatever. Of course they were
Speaker 1: having it worked on by various people. And say, god
Speaker 1: knows who's DNA that could have been, or it could
Speaker 1: have been you know, maybe a murderer who knows it
Speaker 1: wasn't whose DNA it's. Yeah, So we got two pieces
Speaker 1: of d N A that in theory weren't supposed to
Speaker 1: be there. But Megan Voss denied that she had ever
Speaker 1: been in the Four Winds. She was very consistent about it.
Speaker 1: She was asked if she had ever been to any
Speaker 1: of the places the boat was at, like Constitution dock
Speaker 1: or clean Line or Clean Lip Marine, and she said no.
Speaker 1: She said she had no idea whatsoever how it got there.
Speaker 1: And they asked her where she was the night of
Speaker 1: the murder, and she was not really sure about that either.
Speaker 1: But it turns out she was homeless, like I said,
Speaker 1: and so moving from shelter to shelter the days. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and when she was finally question about this, of course,
Speaker 1: this was you know, weeks and at least a month
Speaker 1: and a half after the murders, maybe longer than that.
Speaker 1: So disappear, Yeah, I understand, Yeah better. Oh yeah, sorry,
Speaker 1: sorry disparience. Yeah. Um. One thing I will say is
Speaker 1: I I don't know that this is what's happening here,
Speaker 1: and I'm totally like shooting from the hip again. Um,
Speaker 1: as my disclaimer here, just remembering something that I had heard.
Speaker 1: I feel like it was maybe on like a last
Speaker 1: week tonight or something like that, about a lot of
Speaker 1: forensic labs having a hard time, Um, when there are
Speaker 1: multiple people's DNA mixed actually isolating the correct DNA profile,
Speaker 1: it would be an amazing coincidence if it just happened
Speaker 1: that they had two DNAs mixed together that were that
Speaker 1: provided a positive for for Megan. But it's not heard
Speaker 1: of I mean people have been I think, I believe,
Speaker 1: if I'm remembering this correctly, people have been convicted on
Speaker 1: what was presented as like hardcore DNA evidence. But you know,
Speaker 1: there were like five or six different blood it was yeah,
Speaker 1: and then it just happened that, you know, you could
Speaker 1: read certain markers as matching, and so the lab was like, yeah, matches,
Speaker 1: but it was really only two or three markers. I
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, I don't think that's what happened here,
Speaker 1: but what it would be a hell of a coincidence,
Speaker 1: But it's happened before. I mean, people have been convicted. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I believe. Again disclaimer, I believe that I heard that.
Speaker 1: I might have just dreamed it. I don't know. That's fine.
Speaker 1: Dreams are Dreams are fine, They're admissible on this podcast.
Speaker 1: But you but you bring up a good point to
Speaker 1: which is that DNA testing is not infallible. Even though
Speaker 1: DNA is is a really really good way to identify people.
Speaker 1: That assumes that everybody's doing their job right, everybody's being honest,
Speaker 1: which is not always the case. Sometimes there's an incentive
Speaker 1: to not be forthright that you made a mistake, because
Speaker 1: that that tarnishes your reputation, which then screws everything up down.
Speaker 1: Yeah and yeah, and so there's all kinds of different
Speaker 1: ways that you can mess up your DNA tests. So
Speaker 1: so we shouldn't take this as total proof that Megan
Speaker 1: Boss was on the four winds um you know, and
Speaker 1: the prosecution says she was not. That they there at
Speaker 1: least they believe she wasn't. They think it's most likely
Speaker 1: it was, So how would so so then how how
Speaker 1: how did your DNA get there? Well, the prosecution has
Speaker 1: said there they think the most likely probable theory is
Speaker 1: that a police have been tracked it onto the yachts somehow.
Speaker 1: It's transference, yea transference. There's been an argument against that
Speaker 1: also of course. Yeah, well that the Victoria Police Department
Speaker 1: apparently came in and reviewed the case because of all
Speaker 1: the controversy, and uh then they liked at the DNA
Speaker 1: sample they've taken. They said, there's just I guess too
Speaker 1: much DNA or something like that. Porto just been a transference.
Speaker 1: It had to have been a direct application from somebody. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's what they said. But again, you know, again, I
Speaker 1: think this whole DNA thing is just there's so many
Speaker 1: ways it can get screwed up. Yeah, yeah, and saying,
Speaker 1: of course, Megan is Megan Voss has been very consistent
Speaker 1: all the way along, which is not really typical. If
Speaker 1: somebody who's actually got something to hi'dlight that. Usually when
Speaker 1: they're presented with that evidence, they're like, oh, yeah, well
Speaker 1: maybe I was down there because they actually gave her
Speaker 1: an out and I said, well, it was tied up
Speaker 1: at Constitution Dock right over there. We were over there
Speaker 1: over there. She could have said, yeah, I remember I
Speaker 1: was over there, like being homeless one night, and I
Speaker 1: stumbled around and put my hands all over a lot
Speaker 1: of boats. She didn't do that, even though it was
Speaker 1: right near where she lives. She could have just said, yeah,
Speaker 1: I remember stumbled around over there. No doubt I touched it.
Speaker 1: She didn't do that, you know. So again, that doesn't
Speaker 1: prove that she's you know, absolutely innocent. Maybe she did murder.
Speaker 1: She's also maybe she is responsible for Bob's disappearance. She's
Speaker 1: also she was fifteen at the time of murder. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: saying that's true. We'll talk a little bit more about
Speaker 1: Megan a little bit here, but first let's look at
Speaker 1: the case against Sue Neil Fraser, who you know a
Speaker 1: I said, has a lot of supporters down to Tasmania.
Speaker 1: The prosecution's theory of the crime is this Bob and
Speaker 1: Sue's relationship was reaching. It send from a financial standpoint,
Speaker 1: Sue would be much better off with Bob dead, in
Speaker 1: her winding up with whole ownership of all their common assets,
Speaker 1: you know, house boat, whatever, rather than having to split
Speaker 1: all that stuff up with Bob and maybe you know
Speaker 1: him even getting a hyd percent of stuff, like maybe
Speaker 1: the house. I don't even know he might have owned
Speaker 1: the house outright, I don't know. Yeah, we don't know
Speaker 1: whose name was on what. Apparently apparently they did the
Speaker 1: math on it, and they feel that Sue was significantly
Speaker 1: better off with Bob dead. And they were not married.
Speaker 1: They were not married, They were just but having been together.
Speaker 1: It might have been a common law marriage if they've
Speaker 1: been together, but they weren't. There was no like, you know,
Speaker 1: if they get divorced, it's half and half, divide a
Speaker 1: bassets blah blah blah blah. No, no, no, no, not
Speaker 1: at all. Yeah. So the prosecution series that on the
Speaker 1: night of January or actually the afternoon of January nine,
Speaker 1: Sue went out to the Four Winds and murdered Bob
Speaker 1: with a blond object down in the main cabin and
Speaker 1: returned to shore went home. Later that night, she had
Speaker 1: a phone conversation with a guy named Richard King, and
Speaker 1: which King demanded to speak to Bob, and she said
Speaker 1: Bob was unreachable at the moment. And then after the
Speaker 1: call in it, which would have been about ten thirty
Speaker 1: five pm, Sue became worried that King might go down
Speaker 1: to the Four Winds himself and discovered the body. So
Speaker 1: she drove down to the waterfront, went out to the
Speaker 1: boat in the digging winch Bob's body out of the cabin.
Speaker 1: The boat had a had a winch on it, and
Speaker 1: so she used the winch to winch it out of
Speaker 1: the cabin, or at least to help her get the
Speaker 1: body out of the cabin. Yeah. Yeah, it's a little
Speaker 1: a little helping hand there, and dead weight is not
Speaker 1: easy to move, No, it's but yeah, definitely, and so
Speaker 1: having that little extra would probably have done the trick
Speaker 1: for the In their theory is she tied the body
Speaker 1: to the large or put the body into the dingy,
Speaker 1: tied it to that large heavy fire extinguisher that I
Speaker 1: mentioned earlier to weigh it down, took it somewhere down
Speaker 1: the river to deeper water, because they searched the river
Speaker 1: pretty carefully with the divers and everything, we're not able
Speaker 1: to find it, and dumped the body and then went
Speaker 1: back to the boat to clean it up and get
Speaker 1: rid of as much evidence as possible. So you pieces
Speaker 1: of carpet have been removed and stuff like this, and
Speaker 1: so you know, somebody did apparently did try to at
Speaker 1: least get rid of some of the evidence, although not
Speaker 1: all of it. Uh. And then she also attempted the
Speaker 1: course to sink the boat. And according as is also
Speaker 1: part of their theory, only suit or Bob would have
Speaker 1: been familiar enough of the plumbing on that boat to
Speaker 1: be able to do what she did, unless unless somebody
Speaker 1: happened to what are what the old as that she did,
Speaker 1: unless whoever came aboard the boat and murdered Bob really
Speaker 1: knew a lot about boats, which is possible. I mean,
Speaker 1: like Joe knows enough about boats, well, you know, but
Speaker 1: but even me, if I go to the forward head
Speaker 1: and and and you say to me, Joe, slash the
Speaker 1: intake line, I wouldn't know which one was the intake. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I really wasn't. Yeah, yeah, you have to actually know
Speaker 1: your own boat to know that stuff. Probably, And sorry,
Speaker 1: I don't think we talked about this. What what was
Speaker 1: the what? What? Sue and Bob? Were they big people?
Speaker 1: Was she big? Was he? I mean were they comparable
Speaker 1: size to each other? They seemed to be reasonably similar
Speaker 1: in size. Yeah, he was not a huge guy and
Speaker 1: she was not a tiny, petit woman. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: just is it even reasonable for her to have, you know,
Speaker 1: been able to even move his body at all? I
Speaker 1: think that you know what I mean. You know, on
Speaker 1: a sailboat you do have winches all over the place
Speaker 1: that for you know, that have to pull heavy stuff
Speaker 1: like pull anchors up. But you do have to like
Speaker 1: get a body to a place where you can get
Speaker 1: the winch. I mean, that's that's what those rub marks
Speaker 1: in the hatches steroies came from the rope. The rope
Speaker 1: goes down, she ties it around his chest or something
Speaker 1: like that and then starts winching it up. And I'm
Speaker 1: sure it would have been a kind of brutally hard job.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, obviously she didn't plan the crime
Speaker 1: as carefully as you probably should have. I also, I
Speaker 1: guess I just have a problem with what. You know,
Speaker 1: she's the one who pointed the rope marks out, and
Speaker 1: like if she had cost them with the winch, she
Speaker 1: would yeah, yeah, that that that's one possibility. She would
Speaker 1: have kept her mouth shut. I don't know if that
Speaker 1: was maybe her trying to get out ahead of kind
Speaker 1: of get ahead of the whole thing, and just you know,
Speaker 1: it was it was dumb if she did anyway, So
Speaker 1: it was dumb. I mean I think that. But again
Speaker 1: that there and there there. I've seen an other cases
Speaker 1: where people point stuff out to the police that later
Speaker 1: incriminated him. It's like, I really do think that it's
Speaker 1: either maybe arrogance or maybe they're just trying to get ahead.
Speaker 1: You know, they don't want the police to point to
Speaker 1: this and I say to you, what's this? And how
Speaker 1: do you look? All guilty? Instead you say, hey, wow,
Speaker 1: what's that policeman? You know? And so yeah, anyway, sorry,
Speaker 1: but anyway, I never said Sue was brilliant. Yeah, oh, anyway,
Speaker 1: back to the prosecution. So let's finish the size. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So so she she scuttles the boat, or at least
Speaker 1: attempts to then takes the dinghy back to shore, cast
Speaker 1: to the drift, goes home. It's three way to am.
Speaker 1: She made it a ten pound call it or landline,
Speaker 1: so that's one zero pound And apparently in Australia what
Speaker 1: that does is it tells you the number of the
Speaker 1: last incoming call that you received. It's like, what do
Speaker 1: we have her here that we used to have before
Speaker 1: it was a star six line? Yeah, same kind of
Speaker 1: same thing. This is the prosecution theory. Why why did
Speaker 1: she do ten pound? She just I think she wanted
Speaker 1: to see, if we'll see, because she was going to
Speaker 1: she was going to tell the police that she was
Speaker 1: home all night. Now if somebody had been trying to
Speaker 1: call her, yeah, and so and her last call was
Speaker 1: an income and call from Richard King, so she ten
Speaker 1: pounds it and that's the call then hey bingo? Yeah, okay,
Speaker 1: But anyway that the prosecution series seems reasonable enough. But
Speaker 1: how to convince a jury of this, because remember then
Speaker 1: that can't just be kind of reasonable, It's got to
Speaker 1: be beyond a reasonable doubt. Yeah, Because I mean, theoretically,
Speaker 1: she could have woken up in the middle of night
Speaker 1: thought the phone had rang and had missed it and
Speaker 1: started it ten pounds to see if she had truly
Speaker 1: missed her She's dreamed nothing. Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe she
Speaker 1: was taken a bid night shower and just thought, oh
Speaker 1: I got heard the phone. Yeah, absolutely, very common. Yeah,
Speaker 1: all the time right now? Well, first, what were sues
Speaker 1: whereabouts after she parted ways with Bob on the afternoon
Speaker 1: of January Well, okay, she says she went to shore,
Speaker 1: tied up her dinghy, got into her car and went
Speaker 1: to Bunnings, which is the Australian version of home Depot. Yeah,
Speaker 1: she browsed for a long time but didn't buy the thing,
Speaker 1: then went home. Uh. Bob and Sue lived on Allison Street,
Speaker 1: which is about two miles from the Royal Yacht Club.
Speaker 1: It's about a mile and a half as the crail flies,
Speaker 1: but by street if you walk it drive it's too much. Yeah.
Speaker 1: She said it was getting dark when she got home,
Speaker 1: so that would be late because sunset and Hobart that
Speaker 1: day was a PM. And after she got home she
Speaker 1: made two phone calls and then she received that ten
Speaker 1: o five phone call from Richard King that I mentioned before,
Speaker 1: and she was home the rest of the night until
Speaker 1: she was filmed by police the next morning at seven
Speaker 1: eleven am, and she drove down to the Royal Yacht
Speaker 1: Club right away, and that's on the seven that's what
Speaker 1: she told police. Um and this story of course did
Speaker 1: change a bit over time, as you guys may or
Speaker 1: may not know. Yeah, but that same morning, the owner
Speaker 1: of a house at to Margaret Street found a red
Speaker 1: jacket on the brick while outside his house. And you
Speaker 1: could see this house on Google street View. They drove
Speaker 1: past it. To lay this out for you, Marieville Esplanade
Speaker 1: is a street that runs right next to the marina
Speaker 1: and kind of runs north south and parallel to the shoreline.
Speaker 1: At the north end of it, or near the north
Speaker 1: end of it, at right angles there is uh Margaret
Speaker 1: Street that goes off of it, a tease into it.
Speaker 1: And so this house was just right off from Reville
Speaker 1: Esplanade and this uh and and whether Jackets was found
Speaker 1: is about a hundred and fifty yards from where Sue
Speaker 1: had tied up the digging the night before we had
Speaker 1: the ladder in the Royal ot Club. Police showed the
Speaker 1: jacket to Sue. She said she'd never seen it before,
Speaker 1: but it turns out she had in fact, it actually
Speaker 1: belonged to her, which is weird. Yeah. I don't know
Speaker 1: why she didn't just own up to it. I don't
Speaker 1: quite get that, but she said she'd never seen it before.
Speaker 1: I also noticed that she had she had apparently injured
Speaker 1: her her wrist in her thumb. She had a bandage
Speaker 1: on her thumb, and her wrist had been strapped like
Speaker 1: she's been sprains maybe like with an ace bandage kind
Speaker 1: of strapped, I'm guessing is what that means. Yeah, Yeah,
Speaker 1: And it turns out, remember I mentioned that photo was
Speaker 1: taken up lunch the day before. Well, her hands were
Speaker 1: visible on the photo and she didn't have any bandages
Speaker 1: or strapping or anything. So something had happened. Something had happened,
Speaker 1: you know, over the course of that less than twenty
Speaker 1: four hours to injure her, like maybe moving a body. Sorry. Uh.
Speaker 1: She also at that time unprompted. And now remember this
Speaker 1: is meeting the police down there. They've been she's been
Speaker 1: told the day of the morning, I've just been told.
Speaker 1: While the boats thinking, she shows up the police there
Speaker 1: and she said that the four Winds have been boarded
Speaker 1: by somebody two or three days before. And she said
Speaker 1: she was concerned that drug smugglers are perhaps hitting drugs
Speaker 1: on the boat. Yeah, yeah, there you go. She talked
Speaker 1: about maybe I'm getting some sniffer dogs and sniffing the boat,
Speaker 1: you know, to see if there were drugs on it.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, no, I've never seen that drag before.
Speaker 1: It's the drug that the drugs. It's gotta be the drugs.
Speaker 1: Really faster them on drugs. But you should look at
Speaker 1: some drugs. You should look at some drugs. Yeah, there
Speaker 1: might be some drugs on there. I don't know. Smugglers, smugglers,
Speaker 1: that's done it. Smugglers. Yeah, so yeah, I get those
Speaker 1: dogs on my boat right now. Well, yeah, kids were
Speaker 1: not advocating drugs, don't know. Yeah, I think at this point, um,
Speaker 1: there was no suggestion to foul play even I mean,
Speaker 1: they didn't even actually know that Bob was missing at
Speaker 1: this time, and so you know, so she's weird. She's
Speaker 1: like going on, Yeah, it was weird. She did. She
Speaker 1: said some weird stuff. But people do well sure, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's not obviously a hanging offense at least unless
Speaker 1: you say too much weird stuff and then it is.
Speaker 1: But uh. Sue had another interview with the police on
Speaker 1: February five, which would be ten days after Bob went missing.
Speaker 1: She did repeat what she said about going to bondings
Speaker 1: after leaving Bob, and then a month later she repeated
Speaker 1: that claim again to police. But at this point they
Speaker 1: had a chance to check out the CCTV and it's
Speaker 1: closercuit television from the store, and they couldn't find her anywhere.
Speaker 1: And they said, Jesus, we can't find you on any
Speaker 1: CCTV from the store. And also, by the way, so
Speaker 1: did you know the Bunny's closes at six pm that day?
Speaker 1: That's weird because they only let me in. I was
Speaker 1: the drugs. The drugs was not the drugs. I was
Speaker 1: wondering where this nobody there. I was wondering why it
Speaker 1: was Yeah, yeah, uh so. And then at that point
Speaker 1: she said, well, she was pretty sure she'd gone there
Speaker 1: that day and uh And then in that same interview,
Speaker 1: she also repeated that she'd been home all night at
Speaker 1: the night of January seven. Man, Okay, so I have
Speaker 1: a really bad memory. And you guys know, I don't
Speaker 1: think I have even this bad of a memory. I mean,
Speaker 1: maybe like a year ye, but a day before, yeah,
Speaker 1: day before like, I don't know what I did a
Speaker 1: lot yesterday. I don't know. Maybe she was drunk, maybe
Speaker 1: she had gotten Actually, okay, if she is under a
Speaker 1: lot of stress, if this project is stressing around and
Speaker 1: Bob is stressing around, and something else is and she
Speaker 1: is just not handling things well. Plus I seem to
Speaker 1: also remember her somewhere in the reading that she was
Speaker 1: on some medication that they would have a side effect
Speaker 1: of messing with your memory. Yeah, I think she was
Speaker 1: on zan X or something like. Yeah. So it's it
Speaker 1: is possible that she's did go to a store, and
Speaker 1: it is possible that she went to a Bunnings, but
Speaker 1: they may not have been in the same day, same trip,
Speaker 1: and she may have just in the alphabet soup of
Speaker 1: her memory on drugs. She may not. And I'm not
Speaker 1: saying elicit trucks. I'm saying, prescribe drugs because the side effects.
Speaker 1: She might have thought that she was telling them the truth.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's it's one of those things with
Speaker 1: memory when you recall it and you say this is
Speaker 1: you rewrite it and you seen it, and so she
Speaker 1: may have inadvertently st story. Well, yeah, she might have.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's what a lot of people are saying.
Speaker 1: And they're saying that she might have it could just
Speaker 1: be misremembering something. Yeah, it seems like you might say
Speaker 1: to them, like, you know what, I know, this sounds
Speaker 1: really suspicious. I'm on, you know, some drugs. I'm happy
Speaker 1: to like my doctor can talk to you about the
Speaker 1: side effects. But she may not with her memory though. Well, yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that's true. She made she made her away
Speaker 1: where this is a This is a good you know,
Speaker 1: good murder tips for all your potential murderers out there
Speaker 1: is don't don't ever give the police too much, you know,
Speaker 1: to give him the barare minimum? They say, well, where
Speaker 1: were you yesterday? Well, I saw Bob and then I
Speaker 1: wanted and then I went home. And then later on
Speaker 1: they saying, well we kind of county being home with
Speaker 1: you know, always say oh, well I did stop at
Speaker 1: the store for a little while on the way home,
Speaker 1: and that's nothing. That's not suspicious. I mean if I go,
Speaker 1: you know, and so anyway, just the murder tip there, um,
Speaker 1: good job, Joe, Yeah, I know where were we? So
Speaker 1: she she was she had talked to the police. Uh,
Speaker 1: this is you know, again, like a month and a
Speaker 1: half I think after the disappearance, around this time, the
Speaker 1: police also talked to Sue's daughter. She had two daughters,
Speaker 1: as I said, and they showed her a picture of
Speaker 1: a car which looked just like Sue's car, and they said, well,
Speaker 1: this voter app was taken right down by the Royal
Speaker 1: Yacht Club on twelve fifteen am, the night of the murder.
Speaker 1: Is that a your mother's car? And they and they said, well,
Speaker 1: I guess, And well they must have talked to Sue
Speaker 1: about this, because is right after that her story started
Speaker 1: to change. Yeah, a few days after that she told
Speaker 1: remember and and Sanchez, Bob's daughter on the phone with
Speaker 1: Terrist said she she that night, the night of the disappearance,
Speaker 1: that she had been worried about Bob out there in
Speaker 1: the boat by himself, and so she got in the
Speaker 1: car and drove down to the water to look at
Speaker 1: the boat, and then she drove back home just like
Speaker 1: gaze Longing Lanes. Just I don't know what she expected
Speaker 1: to see, like, you know, because well, yeah, it was Yeah,
Speaker 1: maybe she expected to see the boat in flames or
Speaker 1: something like that. I'm not sure. But that bomb she planted, yeah,
Speaker 1: or that I hadn't gone off. Yeah. Yeah. Well, and
Speaker 1: then not long after I marched thirteen, she was interviewed
Speaker 1: by Felicity Ogilvie, who was a reporter for ABC, which
Speaker 1: is what Australian broadcasting corporation. I think sounds good, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and she told her a similar story about change, you know,
Speaker 1: about not staying home all night, getting in the car,
Speaker 1: driving down to check on Bob. Felicity passed this on
Speaker 1: to the police. This was the first time police had
Speaker 1: heard this, you know everything, you know, she had always
Speaker 1: told them that she was home all night, so obviously
Speaker 1: that that got their interest. Uh. Then markye, she had
Speaker 1: a phone conversation with an Sanchez again, and this time
Speaker 1: she said that she had driven down to Marieville Esplanade again,
Speaker 1: the street right outside the Royal Yacht Club and left
Speaker 1: the car there and that was late that night, left
Speaker 1: the car there and walked home for exercise. She didn't
Speaker 1: changed the story again a little bit, and then May
Speaker 1: five police interviewed her again and she told them that
Speaker 1: she had actually been mixed up about time. She was
Speaker 1: actually on the four wins later than she had thought
Speaker 1: with Bob. And then she said after that she she
Speaker 1: went to shore. He left her car parked on Marieville
Speaker 1: Esplanade or maybe Margaret Street, and walked home because she
Speaker 1: wanted the exercise. And then later that night she said
Speaker 1: she decided she she should go get the car and
Speaker 1: bring it home. And so that was again, I don't
Speaker 1: know how late at some point, so she walks down
Speaker 1: again a two mile walk from her house. She walks
Speaker 1: down to the waterfront, and when she got to the waterfront,
Speaker 1: she realized she brought the wrong keys, and so she
Speaker 1: didn't have the car keys. So she turned around and
Speaker 1: walked back home, and she got the correct car keys
Speaker 1: and walked back down to the waterfront. She definitely hit
Speaker 1: her step goal for the day, didn't Yeah, yeah, we're
Speaker 1: talking like, yeah, six miles there and I and looking,
Speaker 1: what's the original two miles she walked home without the
Speaker 1: car from so that's told about eight miles walking a day. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's pretty good, she was. That's not bad at all. Yeah,
Speaker 1: some people walk. Oh no, I mean, I'm not saying
Speaker 1: that I haven't walked eight miles in a day. I'm
Speaker 1: just saying that that's usually usually when I go from
Speaker 1: my six mile highs, I do it in the daylight. Yeah, yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: so this would have been late at night, right, Yeah,
Speaker 1: very late at night. Remember she was on the phone
Speaker 1: with Richard King till ten, so yeah, so it would
Speaker 1: have been at least yeah after that. So, so she
Speaker 1: finally succeeds in coming down there with the right keys
Speaker 1: and uh, and she got the car. Then she drove
Speaker 1: north and you can see this on on Google Earth
Speaker 1: if you look at it. She drove north as a
Speaker 1: jet an. They're just not far north to the Art
Speaker 1: Club and there's some some metal sheds out there where
Speaker 1: there's a rowing club. And drove out onto the jetty
Speaker 1: to the end and walked down to the end of
Speaker 1: the jetty to look across to the boat and see
Speaker 1: it and just to check on Bob. And who knows,
Speaker 1: maybe she was like jealous. She thought Bob might be
Speaker 1: partying or something like that. She was looking for her
Speaker 1: like bright lights and loud rock music or something like that.
Speaker 1: But she did a shrimp on the Barbie rock and
Speaker 1: roll tunes. Yeah, so she looked out to see if
Speaker 1: what was going on with Bob. Couldn't see anything because
Speaker 1: it was pitch black because it was night. Yeah, it
Speaker 1: was night. And then she went yeah, and then in
Speaker 1: that same interview, the police asked her about the red
Speaker 1: jacket again and they said, they said, you know, I
Speaker 1: don't know if they've actually pulled it out and showed
Speaker 1: it to her, just mentioned it to her. They said, well,
Speaker 1: you remember the red jacket that you said you'd never
Speaker 1: seen before. What we tested it for DNA. Your DNA
Speaker 1: is all over it, yea. So she admitted it was
Speaker 1: her jacket. And and then okay, wait, wait, wait, wait,
Speaker 1: what's so incriminating about the jacket other than they found
Speaker 1: it and she lied about it. Yeah, nothing, really, I
Speaker 1: don't Yeah, I mean, it's just strange that she lied
Speaker 1: about it. I'm just making sure I'm clarifying that there
Speaker 1: wasn't something on it wed her. I guess I should say.
Speaker 1: The other The only other thing that was incriminating about
Speaker 1: it was that Sue had said she left in mid afternoon.
Speaker 1: She left the yacht and went the buns and then
Speaker 1: went home, and the person who lived in the home
Speaker 1: at to Margaret Street found it early in the morning.
Speaker 1: He said when he came home at night, and he
Speaker 1: didn't I'm not sure exactly what time that night the
Speaker 1: jacket was not there, So sometime in the night and
Speaker 1: the jacket winds up on this wall, and so okay,
Speaker 1: that's what that's the significance of the whole thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know. And also the denial, frankly never looks good
Speaker 1: to police. So none of this is looking good for
Speaker 1: when she goes card. No, no, it doesn't look it
Speaker 1: doesn't look that gray. Yeah. And that trial, Yeah, they
Speaker 1: did go to trial. Things didn't get better. Um. And
Speaker 1: so remember what I just said, when she after she'd
Speaker 1: got in the car, she's driven to the end of
Speaker 1: the jetty to look at the four Winds and check
Speaker 1: out Bob. Well, it turns out there was somebody else
Speaker 1: on that jetty that night. His name was John Hughes,
Speaker 1: and he testified that he didn't see anybody else out
Speaker 1: there and said, sus that she'd driven out to the
Speaker 1: end of the pier or the le jetty in her
Speaker 1: car would be pretty hard to miss. That would be
Speaker 1: kind of hard to miss. Yeah, And he was also
Speaker 1: testified he did see a woman or somebody who looked
Speaker 1: like a woman in an inflatable dinghy with an outboard
Speaker 1: motor heading northeast from the Royal Yacht Club and in
Speaker 1: the general direction of the Four Winds and that was
Speaker 1: about between eleven thirty and maybe twelve that night, and
Speaker 1: so so that's not so point now. And then also
Speaker 1: the police, as I said, interviewed everybody that Sue knew
Speaker 1: and suing Bob knew, and they happened to track down
Speaker 1: this guy at one of the sailors, Peter Stevenson, the
Speaker 1: guy helped bring the boat to where they yeah. One
Speaker 1: of that guy. He testified that Sue, when they were
Speaker 1: on the trip, told him that her relationship with Bob
Speaker 1: had been strained and that it was basically over and
Speaker 1: it had been over for some time. He also said
Speaker 1: that when he arrived in Hobart and Bob met them,
Speaker 1: apparently approached to assume maybe wanting to hug her or
Speaker 1: something like that, she just basically kind of stood back
Speaker 1: from it and ignored him. Was not terribly it was
Speaker 1: not warm towards him at all. So again that doesn't
Speaker 1: prove anything. It just proves that they were fighting. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, she's a very normal thing for couples to do. Well,
Speaker 1: it is, but they've been apart for quite a while.
Speaker 1: I don't know how long it takes to sail from
Speaker 1: Queensland down down to Tasmania. I would think it would
Speaker 1: take a while. I think think like a week anyway,
Speaker 1: something like that. But listen, if if something gets in
Speaker 1: somebody's you know, they got a burr under their saddle
Speaker 1: and they are pissed at you about something and they've
Speaker 1: had a week to stew on it by themselves, and
Speaker 1: then you show up, Yeah, maybe they're not gonna welcome
Speaker 1: you with open arms. Yeah it could be. I mean,
Speaker 1: this's just this is all not necessarily proof of anything
Speaker 1: like that. You know, just there was some tension between them.
Speaker 1: But I don't know what other what more testimony they had.
Speaker 1: They had son Tim chappell Uh He testified that he'd
Speaker 1: been with Bob and Sue in the Four Wins twice
Speaker 1: in the month before the murder, and he said the
Speaker 1: tension between them was so thick that you could cut
Speaker 1: it with a knife, and said have made him uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: And then he also said that Sue told him in
Speaker 1: January seven again, this is like right after Bob disappeared,
Speaker 1: for our wins have been broken into twice in Hobart,
Speaker 1: and Tim said he was surprised because he hadn't heard
Speaker 1: anything about this before. And I got the impression that
Speaker 1: Tim actually had a fairly close relationship with his dad
Speaker 1: and and his dad probably would have mentioned something too,
Speaker 1: and that's why he felt surprised by it. And she actually,
Speaker 1: I mean as far as all the break in she
Speaker 1: I mean, Sue it said that it had been broken into.
Speaker 1: They gott have been broken into up in Queensland. Later
Speaker 1: on she denied that she had ever said that. She
Speaker 1: said and and and so her statements on that, and
Speaker 1: that's why there's a lot of statement she made about
Speaker 1: this stuff. I'm not talking too much about that because
Speaker 1: she was all over the place on that. And there's
Speaker 1: this is again another one of those stories where there's
Speaker 1: so many confu lifting accounts, especially when they come from
Speaker 1: that one person, that it's hard to cover them all
Speaker 1: because you just it becomes jibber jabber. Yeah, it's hard
Speaker 1: to follow because as I did this, and I did that,
Speaker 1: I did this, and I did that, I did this
Speaker 1: anoint and uh, yeah, the whole the whole break in thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and I'm and there were there were a few other
Speaker 1: testimonies to the fact that she had said that the
Speaker 1: relationship was over. I'm not going to name names, are
Speaker 1: going to do deeply at an except for one guy, uh,
Speaker 1: a former friend and I think my former friend. I
Speaker 1: don't think they had a following up, but they just
Speaker 1: sort of like just stopped hanging out, lost track of
Speaker 1: each other. But this guy's name was Philip Triffint. Last
Speaker 1: name reminds me have Triffid. But he used to be
Speaker 1: buddies with them, and he testified that in the nineties
Speaker 1: I think this is nineties six or nineties seven, he
Speaker 1: was on Sue's bow. This is about that she on
Speaker 1: prior to the four winds, and they were out. She
Speaker 1: asked him to help her take her brother Patrick out
Speaker 1: to see and drown him. Yeah. Apparently there's some dispute
Speaker 1: between Sue and Patrick over her mother's property and so
Speaker 1: so I just planned to way Patrick downward the toolbox
Speaker 1: and send him up to Davy Jones locker. Uh. And
Speaker 1: then her idea was that that Philip Trippitt would then
Speaker 1: take the boat closer to shore and sink it after
Speaker 1: she had gone ashore in the digging. And then she's
Speaker 1: he said, he testified in court she showed him how
Speaker 1: they could sink the boat by using the bilge pump,
Speaker 1: and that that that would be another way to I
Speaker 1: mean besides just shutting it off, you could actually reversese
Speaker 1: reverse it. So did he mention if they if she
Speaker 1: came up and explained this entire plan over a case
Speaker 1: of Foster's. I've assuming they were on a boat. I'm
Speaker 1: assuming there were a few beers involved. Well that's what
Speaker 1: you know. It's like you sit around and you you
Speaker 1: can talk. I mean, if you got nothing to do
Speaker 1: but talk for days, you can come up with some
Speaker 1: wild stuff going, especially if you're boozing it up. Sure,
Speaker 1: for sure. I mean if if they put me on
Speaker 1: trial and murder and all the people that they could
Speaker 1: drag in to talk about, how many times did Joe
Speaker 1: talk about murder with you? Well quite a few times. Two. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, it would look good for me. That's
Speaker 1: why I got to stay out of that whole thing. Yeah,
Speaker 1: And I don't know why, but Philip Triffic, I don't
Speaker 1: know why I didn't agree with this point to this plan.
Speaker 1: And maybe it was a part about him sinking the
Speaker 1: boat after she'd taken off with the lifeboat, like, because
Speaker 1: that was her plan. You sink the boat while I'm
Speaker 1: going to shore in the dighy. So apparently you hang
Speaker 1: out on the sinking boat. Yeah, that never came to it.
Speaker 1: Maybe he was a good swimmer, I don't know, but
Speaker 1: he also testified this not too long after that, she
Speaker 1: he ensued had another conversation at her home, and Sue
Speaker 1: said that she wanted to do a similar thing is
Speaker 1: she talked about with her brother Patrick before, except she
Speaker 1: wanted to do what she wanted to do it with
Speaker 1: Bob and she wanted to wrap him in chicken wire
Speaker 1: instead of you know, doing the whole I don't know
Speaker 1: why chicken wire, but maybe this is why Philip didn't
Speaker 1: want to be friends with her, because she just kept
Speaker 1: being like, these are all the ways I'm going to
Speaker 1: murder the people around me. And he was like, maybe
Speaker 1: I shouldn't, Maybe I don't need yeah, yeah, And I
Speaker 1: said he's like thinking, like, well, when I'm not around
Speaker 1: she talked about murdering me, I wonder, I don't mean
Speaker 1: this kind of negative? Do I want or maybe it?
Speaker 1: Do I want to be voting with this person out
Speaker 1: in the ocean, Maybe not not? Don't turn your back
Speaker 1: on her anyway? Well, anyway, so that was that didn't
Speaker 1: look so good. Of course that's not just positive, but
Speaker 1: in the you know, when you look at all the
Speaker 1: other things that people are saying. Sue said to them, well,
Speaker 1: it doesn't look so good. And then could have just
Speaker 1: been a generally unpleasant person. I mean it's completely possible. Yeah, yeah, probably,
Speaker 1: But well, anyway, long story short, Sue was convicted and
Speaker 1: sent to the Pokey for murder based on a very
Speaker 1: circumstantial case, and of course her family and friends began
Speaker 1: to movement to exonerate her and get her sprung from prison. Again,
Speaker 1: as as we have already said, the case against her
Speaker 1: wasn't really air tight. There was nobody, no murder weapon.
Speaker 1: There was that DNA evidence showing to other people have
Speaker 1: been in the boat. Uh. And they also stressed, as
Speaker 1: as we've already talked about, that are changing stories might
Speaker 1: have been the result of a poor memory and stress
Speaker 1: and drug use. Um. And then there were also there
Speaker 1: are three witnesses who said they saw a great dinghy
Speaker 1: saw alongside the four winds that day, of course, and
Speaker 1: and the four winds dinghy is white. So and they
Speaker 1: said they saw a great dinghy. Yeah, that's that's varying
Speaker 1: graves of varying shades of white distance. That is the deal,
Speaker 1: is that? Yeah? And certain especially if it's in the
Speaker 1: shade and stuff like that on a sunny day, I
Speaker 1: don't put a whole lot of stock in it. It
Speaker 1: was a great yeah, yeah, I know, yeah, and so
Speaker 1: that's uh. But but then and I also mentioned that
Speaker 1: thing about the Victoria Police doing their review and they're
Speaker 1: they're they're thinking that the pots the positive Megan Boss's
Speaker 1: DNA was by direct contact and not transference. And they
Speaker 1: also said that they felt that it would have been
Speaker 1: quote mechanically impossible for the African to have winch the
Speaker 1: deceased in the manner described by police unquote, so that
Speaker 1: was their considered opinion. They didn't think it was possible
Speaker 1: for her to get that body out of the out
Speaker 1: of the cabinet into the dinghy, not pursue anyway, that's
Speaker 1: they said. And then last of all, there was a
Speaker 1: local sailor whose name I can't remember now. I saw
Speaker 1: a picture of him. Yeah, yeah, Well the picture of
Speaker 1: him was somewhat older picture where he had long shoulder
Speaker 1: length hair, and he came out after after the trial,
Speaker 1: after the trial and conviction and said, well, I was
Speaker 1: I was out of my digging that night and I
Speaker 1: have my hair was down to my shoulders. Maybe he
Speaker 1: saw John Hughes on the jetty at the rowing sheds,
Speaker 1: saw me and not Sue. He could have been he
Speaker 1: saw me and saying you're going in the general direction
Speaker 1: of a boat is a pretty wide swath of directions.
Speaker 1: So it is, it is so. So these are some
Speaker 1: of the various things that have made people think that, well,
Speaker 1: maybe Sue's case deserves another look. And it has had
Speaker 1: another look or two. Again, there's been appeals and the
Speaker 1: more appeals, the most recent one I think was the
Speaker 1: Supreme the Australian Supreme Court. So this is what we
Speaker 1: call controversy uh as and as a that it's gotten
Speaker 1: huge coverage in Australia. Uh And of course there's that
Speaker 1: award I think I mentioned earlier. Yeah, and and the billboard, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and the billboard. Uh And in this latest appeal earlier
Speaker 1: in this year, Sees defense lawyers promised he would be
Speaker 1: some startling, new fresh evidence. And it is because Megan
Speaker 1: Voss remember her has returned. Oh yeah, that girl. But
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Speaker 1: back in April two thousand seventeen, which is just mere
Speaker 1: months ago. Megan Voss finally fessed up. She signed a
Speaker 1: statement admitting that on the night of January nine, she
Speaker 1: was indeed on board the Four Wins with two unnamed
Speaker 1: men um. And this obviously is a game changer. I mean,
Speaker 1: all the other previous appeals, they never really brought any startling,
Speaker 1: fresh new evidence. They're really just fighting what they considered
Speaker 1: circumstantial evidence. Yeah, essentially, just they keep you going holes
Speaker 1: in the case. Yeah, trying to you know, just saying, hey,
Speaker 1: this guy had long hair that night and he said
Speaker 1: he was out in his boat. Yeah, as on other things, Yeah, yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: But this was really a game changer. But then in fall,
Speaker 1: this is just a couple of months ago, it was
Speaker 1: time for Megan. And obviously, by the way, if you're
Speaker 1: listening to year two thousand and fifty seven, well it
Speaker 1: was fifty years ago. But yeah, for us from this standpoint.
Speaker 1: But when it was time for Megan to take the stand,
Speaker 1: she recanted her story. She said she had been coerced
Speaker 1: in as signing the statement about being on the Four Winds.
Speaker 1: And it turns out that her boyfriend was a biker
Speaker 1: name Sharky, great name. Yeah, And I think I'm going
Speaker 1: to change mind to that. Huh. And he has a
Speaker 1: man remember the Devil's Henchman Motorcycle Club. That's a fun name. Yeah. Her,
Speaker 1: this boyfriend, Sharkey, had another girlfriend. Yeah we're steppy. Yeah right,
Speaker 1: good relationship. I know, I know these are these are
Speaker 1: wonderful people that This other girlfriend's name is Karen Kief.
Speaker 1: Karen did some time in prison turns auctually. She was
Speaker 1: in the same prisons as Sue Neil Fraser. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and Karen seems to have hatched a scheme to collect
Speaker 1: that forty dollar reward plus some other money. There was
Speaker 1: talking the press about a total total amount of dollars
Speaker 1: in Australia. Yeah, yeah, where come from. Well, I'm not
Speaker 1: totally sure about I'm not and I'm not I'm not
Speaker 1: saying that Sue promised the too or anything like that.
Speaker 1: Maybe somebody else I had no idea exactly promised her
Speaker 1: this kind of private source that we don't know about.
Speaker 1: But yeah, yeah, exactly. And uh, but anyway, we're talking
Speaker 1: about it an overall amount of you know, a substantial
Speaker 1: amount of money, yeah, at least in Australia. But the
Speaker 1: scheme involved getting Meg into confess involvement in the crime,
Speaker 1: which would tend to make, you know, make it possible
Speaker 1: to maybe get Sue out of prison. But it turns
Speaker 1: out when Megan recanted, she said she had been coerced.
Speaker 1: She said that she was quote threatened to be put
Speaker 1: in the boot of a car over that piece of
Speaker 1: paper unquote. Yeah. That doesn't sound like fun to me. No,
Speaker 1: I assume I assume what was meant by that is
Speaker 1: putting the boot of a card like dead, Yeah, exactly. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and so yeah, So, so it turns out that was
Speaker 1: a big fizzle. That piece of fresh evidence is kind
Speaker 1: of out the window. And as for Karen O'Keefe, if
Speaker 1: you're wondering, she and a couple of other people, one
Speaker 1: of them was an attorney, have been charged with quote,
Speaker 1: perverting the course of justice unquote. So they're in more
Speaker 1: trouble now. Oh yeah, I mean they understand. Courts really
Speaker 1: don't like it when you pull this kind of Yeah.
Speaker 1: Sudor supporters have also brought in a guy named Paul
Speaker 1: Row that's w. R. O E, who turns out was
Speaker 1: living on his boat in Sandy Bay, which is right
Speaker 1: about there and a nearby winds. Yeah, and it turns out,
Speaker 1: Paul has a violent criminal past, and he's been accused
Speaker 1: by some people of being a serial killer. And yeah,
Speaker 1: that's well, some people have said he was. He would
Speaker 1: be a very credible suspect as a killer of Bob,
Speaker 1: so you know, and obviously they seem to be basically
Speaker 1: throwing everything they can at the wall seeing if anything
Speaker 1: will stick. Yeah, Paul Rose says he never met Sue
Speaker 1: or Bob. He says he's not a serial killer. In fact,
Speaker 1: he says he's going to Suepie people over that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: he had a big the police DNA it was in
Speaker 1: two thousand twelve. I think they probably did question everybody
Speaker 1: who was anywhere nearby and so he did give them
Speaker 1: DNA evidence. Uh, and sample didn't match anything having to
Speaker 1: do with the crime. And as for the criminal past,
Speaker 1: Rose says, it was just youthful exuberance, you know, like
Speaker 1: you know, you use a little bar fights and stabbings
Speaker 1: act something here. Yeah, he did that kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: He did that kind of a sketchy youth you know. Sorry,
Speaker 1: as I know, there there is no evidence to incriminate
Speaker 1: him in Paul Rowin in Bob's death in any way.
Speaker 1: So the latest, the latest appeal to free Sue appears
Speaker 1: to have fizzled. Um, kind of like circling the drain.
Speaker 1: I think this might be it as far as trying
Speaker 1: to get our prison. But nonetheless, opinion down under is
Speaker 1: still sharper divide as to whether Sue actually did the
Speaker 1: deed or not. So the question is is who murdered
Speaker 1: or at least who disappeared Bob Chappel. Great question, yea,
Speaker 1: some how we're not in theories yet, Well just in
Speaker 1: series no moment here, Yeah, I know, let's toss out
Speaker 1: some series here. So who did it? What happened? Okay? Uh?
Speaker 1: Number one the number one? No particular order here, But
Speaker 1: one popular theory is that the Tasmanian Devil got him. Yeah,
Speaker 1: A lot of people believe that Bob was a victim
Speaker 1: of a random Tasmanian Devil attack. A lot a strick
Speaker 1: after that, s say a lot, I mean the number
Speaker 1: between zero and five thousand. Did the Tasmanian Devil think
Speaker 1: that he was bugs Bunny and therefore had to attack him,
Speaker 1: because that's the only reason that Tasmanian Devil ever kills
Speaker 1: and the Warner Brother cartoons. You know, it could be
Speaker 1: like Mr. Direction, Maybe Susan and then we suit tapped
Speaker 1: about so to say, hey, hey, bugs is on that boat?
Speaker 1: I don't know, this is obviously not real. No, no,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get this any more oxygen because
Speaker 1: I actually think the Tasmanian Devil's get kind of an
Speaker 1: unfair wrap. They're actually very cute little animals and they
Speaker 1: are totally harmless when they're not trying to murder you
Speaker 1: and their cousins of chupies. So we gotta be nice
Speaker 1: to actually, and I couldn't do this without going out
Speaker 1: in the web and looking at some Tasmanian devil pictures.
Speaker 1: And they are pretty cute when they're not hissing and
Speaker 1: screaming with their mouths open at you Withdrew coming out. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and they do have large they're the Australian raccoon. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they kind of are. But yeah, when they're not doing that,
Speaker 1: they're kind of cute looking. So okay, so much for
Speaker 1: that good jump. By the way, Devon for not freaking
Speaker 1: out of the mention of a raccoon than you. Is
Speaker 1: this this is therapy is working? Yeah? Yeah, it's like
Speaker 1: it's like exposure therapy, exposure exactly. Yeah, alright, no, our
Speaker 1: next theory, which she's sleep. Yeah, I don't think she cares.
Speaker 1: She's actually she's she's staring at her phone and not
Speaker 1: actually reacting at That's not true, Yeah, staring at the
Speaker 1: script and not reacting. Just may next the next sory,
Speaker 1: Bob chap will left to start a new life, pausing
Speaker 1: all of their frames Sue on his way out the door. Yeah, No,
Speaker 1: that would have been. That would because that would have
Speaker 1: meant Bob like giving up all of his retirement, just
Speaker 1: going off to start a new life and living in
Speaker 1: poverty somewhere. So it's ridiculous. Yeah. Another possibility is maybe
Speaker 1: Bob committed suicide and either widdingly or not incriminated Sue
Speaker 1: at the same time, which I'd say was well done, sir,
Speaker 1: but it seems to Yeah, yeah, no, I don't think so. Yeah,
Speaker 1: no evidence for that. You know, they probably would have
Speaker 1: found his body, Yeah, because they did, as I mentioned,
Speaker 1: scour the river pretty well, especially where the boat was. Okay,
Speaker 1: so the suicide thing is uh so. Another one is
Speaker 1: maybe Bob died accidentally and as she discovers his discovers
Speaker 1: him dead, decides to ditch the body. Thinking, well, now
Speaker 1: since I've talked to so many people about the possibility
Speaker 1: of murdering Bob that he's dead on the boat. Maybe
Speaker 1: does look kind of bad. Maybe I should just ditch
Speaker 1: the body. Yeah, maybe me dumping the body in the
Speaker 1: exact way I discussed the murdering people sounds like a
Speaker 1: better idea. It wasn't exactly used to fire, extinguish or not.
Speaker 1: This is very dumb to me because if indeed she
Speaker 1: had found him dead in some form, I don't care
Speaker 1: whether it was he accidentally stuck a fork in his
Speaker 1: own head or he drowned in an inch of water
Speaker 1: in the bottom of the boat. If she immediately took
Speaker 1: the dinghy, I'm guessing they didn't have a cell phone,
Speaker 1: so she immediately went back to the marina. She actually
Speaker 1: called the cops. She actually had her cell phone on
Speaker 1: her on the odd when she visited Bob that afternoon. Okay,
Speaker 1: so well, I'm just saying, but even even if she
Speaker 1: didn't have a phone on her and she had had
Speaker 1: to go make the call, nobody would have said, huh,
Speaker 1: why did you leave, like it would it wouldn't have
Speaker 1: looked weird as weird as just the body disappearing, not
Speaker 1: at all, not at all. So, I mean, that's obviously
Speaker 1: a ridiculous idea, but you know, I don't know how
Speaker 1: much our listeners love to hear theories series and lots
Speaker 1: of series, so we'll throw all all out there. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: none of them are sicking though. That's kind of like
Speaker 1: the Freedom the Free Sue team. You know, they're like,
Speaker 1: just keep throwing stuff at the wall and it seems
Speaker 1: to stick. You know. Another theory, and this is a
Speaker 1: popular theory. I'm not lying now that somebody other than
Speaker 1: Sue murdered Bob, and that's what a lot of people believe.
Speaker 1: Of course, the presidence of two sets of d n
Speaker 1: A on the boat, one of which is unknown, would
Speaker 1: suggest that maybe this is kind of possible. Well, then
Speaker 1: there's a there this. This would lend credibility to the
Speaker 1: odd things like the dinghy being randomly floating loose and
Speaker 1: stuff like that. Yeah. So yeah, so somebody stole the dinghy,
Speaker 1: went out to the boat, murder Bob and then took
Speaker 1: it back to shore and didn't bother to tie it up,
Speaker 1: and didn't bother to clean up the blood in the bottom,
Speaker 1: because why would you? But why would you care? It's
Speaker 1: not your dinghy and you know, you don't care, so
Speaker 1: you know, okay. But on the other hand, of course,
Speaker 1: of Sued used to dinghy, it's conceivable she could have
Speaker 1: left it untied expect to get to drift out to
Speaker 1: see so you know that. So the fact that the
Speaker 1: dinghy was untied does not prove that somebody other than
Speaker 1: Sue took the She would have to be amazingly unaware
Speaker 1: of the way that water moves inside of a marina
Speaker 1: to think that, yeah, and ties and all that good stuff. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean, yeah, she may have been
Speaker 1: amazing amazingly unaware. I don't know. I mean, but I've
Speaker 1: seen things untied in the waterfront here in Portland at
Speaker 1: the marina that you and I used to go to
Speaker 1: all the time, and it was exceedingly difficult for things
Speaker 1: to get out, And it seems so simple, and yet
Speaker 1: stuff would just bounce around in there and never go away. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's because there's a decent sized current, and that's in
Speaker 1: an eddie. I mean, it's and I could totally see
Speaker 1: the Royal Yoch Club being in an eddie because it
Speaker 1: is kind of been a dimple in the coast. Yeah.
Speaker 1: But my my point is that dinghy floats on top
Speaker 1: of the water, so it's gonna be hard to find
Speaker 1: that one scare two little escape points. One thing I
Speaker 1: will say is that when I was googling other things
Speaker 1: that will light looming all up, bleach is one of
Speaker 1: the things that will light looming all up. So it's
Speaker 1: possible that she did bleach out the bottom of the dinghy,
Speaker 1: thinking well, they'll you know, they won't find any blood
Speaker 1: in it because it will have been cleaned, but if
Speaker 1: they find it floating, it will make it look more
Speaker 1: like somebody who didn't really care about it, you know,
Speaker 1: just threw it away or whatever. And then they did
Speaker 1: test it for women all and she was like, oh dang. Conversely, though,
Speaker 1: if if that dinghy came with the boat and they
Speaker 1: bought the boat used and the boat was not in
Speaker 1: the greatest of shape, that dinghy may not have been
Speaker 1: in the greatest of shape, and somebody might have said, ah,
Speaker 1: it's a white dinghy and the interior is brown, maybe
Speaker 1: I should bleach it and see if I could clean it.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's not a million ways that somebody else
Speaker 1: could have been murdered in the dinghy too. I mean, realistically,
Speaker 1: it could be somebody. I don't know how long blood
Speaker 1: sticks around to you know, light looming all up. But
Speaker 1: I don't know how often you clean your dinghy either.
Speaker 1: I don't. I wouldn't clean it. It's on an individual basis.
Speaker 1: But it is weird. I mean, you know, it's weird
Speaker 1: that there's two sets of DNA and that one of
Speaker 1: them is Megan Boss maybe but maybe not, but probably probably,
Speaker 1: But I guess I thought the point of like, even
Speaker 1: you know, putting your boat at a yacht club is
Speaker 1: that like there's there's restricted access. It's like a gated
Speaker 1: community for your boat, so it's safe for people. You know,
Speaker 1: people like to break into boats and MA break into
Speaker 1: That's why people put him in locked marinas and stuff.
Speaker 1: And so if her boat was tied up in the marina,
Speaker 1: would have been difficult to get to unless it was
Speaker 1: maybe somebody there was a serial killer, like you know,
Speaker 1: living or at least using the marina, could have gone
Speaker 1: out dext style, Yeah exactly, you know, and you had
Speaker 1: extra on the boat there you go, yeah with Dexter. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it could have been Dexter down. Yeah, what's Australian for Dexter?
Speaker 1: What's up? What's dexter upside down. Yeah, that's your answer. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's like, no, I'm not gonna say it, Rhett Okay
Speaker 1: now yeah, now it's too much of a tongue twister.
Speaker 1: Of course, if somebody else, uh, if somebody else, say,
Speaker 1: had had had access to the club and they stole
Speaker 1: the dinghy and took it out to the boat killed Bob,
Speaker 1: then that renders the whole Megan Boss sub theory kind
Speaker 1: of moot anyway, But then it still doesn't totally pointless
Speaker 1: explain why her DNA was there. But sure, no it doesn't.
Speaker 1: And I'm thinking it was Megan. You know, it could
Speaker 1: just possibly be she didn't want to admit to this,
Speaker 1: but it might just be that she and some of
Speaker 1: her friends at some point got their hands on a
Speaker 1: small boat decided to go out because everyone and if
Speaker 1: you look at the area all I don't know if
Speaker 1: it's the same case in two thousand nine as it
Speaker 1: is now, but literally I counted the boats out There
Speaker 1: were like sixty large boats anchored off the yacht club
Speaker 1: when that boat it was taken, and so I could
Speaker 1: totally see some some near Dowell types that they get
Speaker 1: their hands on the boat going out there. Some night
Speaker 1: and just you know, going from boat to boat, finding
Speaker 1: boats that are unoccupied, seeing if they can break in
Speaker 1: and steal stuff stuff. Yeah, maybe she, you know, maybe
Speaker 1: she at some point, you know, pull she had her
Speaker 1: friends pulled alongside that boat, and she reached out and
Speaker 1: grabbed it, you know, and and and maybe they heard
Speaker 1: Bob down below or whatever and just took off. I
Speaker 1: don't know, who knows. So it could be that she
Speaker 1: actually did was on the boat or touch the boat
Speaker 1: or something. I mean, who knows. But as far as
Speaker 1: somebody else doing it, there's a couple of problems with this.
Speaker 1: Like I just said, there are a lots of yachts
Speaker 1: anchored there. All those boats are gonna have tenders for
Speaker 1: getting to shore with a big chunk of those boats
Speaker 1: would have had their tenders tied up in the Royal
Speaker 1: Yacht Club, and the club also would have had other
Speaker 1: small boats to steal for non nautical types tenders or
Speaker 1: the dinghy. Yeah, the tenders are the dingy. Yeah yeah,
Speaker 1: the tender is the thing you used to get to shore.
Speaker 1: Sorry about that, but yeah, yeah, but people keep asking
Speaker 1: for you to use all those nautical terms and losing them.
Speaker 1: Body talk. Um, But so there's all these small boats
Speaker 1: to steal in this in this marina. It's kind of
Speaker 1: an amazing coincidence. It's somebody intending to board and go
Speaker 1: out to the Four Winds and commit murder, robbery. Whatever
Speaker 1: happened to take the same exact tender belonging to that
Speaker 1: same exact boat out of the marina. That's really remarkable.
Speaker 1: And as you were saying, you know, wasn't marked the
Speaker 1: best I can tell, Like I said, I've seen two
Speaker 1: pictures of it, and I haven't seen it from every
Speaker 1: single angle, but I didn't see any markings on it
Speaker 1: that's indicated it was belonged to the Four Winds. But
Speaker 1: maybe her sus knots were really easy to actually get off.
Speaker 1: People actually used a cable lock. Yeah, maybe maybe maybe
Speaker 1: marks were extra special, crappy. That's a good three square
Speaker 1: knots that worked. Yeah, of course, And you could argue
Speaker 1: that if they did something. I know it was like
Speaker 1: if it was marked the Four Winds. Maybe somebody says, Okay,
Speaker 1: there's a boat out there called Four Winds. This must
Speaker 1: be the cruise ashore, and so we'll take the dinghy
Speaker 1: out there because we know that since they're ashore the
Speaker 1: boats empty, we can go rob it. But if there's
Speaker 1: anywhere from twenty to sixty boats out there, they they
Speaker 1: got that's gonna take a while, unless they've really been
Speaker 1: watching what's super innoculars and they've got them all marked
Speaker 1: or something like that, which which speaks to a grander,
Speaker 1: larger conspiracy slash. Exactly. The four Wins wasn't like the
Speaker 1: grandest boat that was there, right, I mean, because there
Speaker 1: would be something to be said of, that's the biggest
Speaker 1: boat out there. We're going to that one. Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm sure it was one of the larger ones. At
Speaker 1: three ft that's pretty decent size, but it wasn't like
Speaker 1: the biggest stuff. It's not a mega Yatt fifty three
Speaker 1: is not that enormous, but it's not I mean, maybe
Speaker 1: that was It's a substantial boat. Yeah, maybe that was
Speaker 1: just it is they thought, oh, yeah, this says for
Speaker 1: or you know whatever, and we're going to go out
Speaker 1: to that boat that's the biggest one, yeah and rob it.
Speaker 1: And then you know, midway through the robbery, Bob comes
Speaker 1: up and they're like, dang it, yeah exactly, so they
Speaker 1: hit him over the head with something and uh and
Speaker 1: of course, they don't know if they've killed him or not.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, you don't know. Um, yeah, I was.
Speaker 1: I always love that in the movies when they cocked
Speaker 1: somebody out. You know, it's like, you know, and they're
Speaker 1: just always so assured that he's knocked out, and it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, maybe you killed him, dude. They never even
Speaker 1: think about that. But they don't know Bob is alive
Speaker 1: or dead. And the sensible thing to do at this
Speaker 1: point is that, well, okay, we just hit this guy.
Speaker 1: We better get out of here. Let's go back to shore.
Speaker 1: We'll burn the dinghy or whatever, get rid of the dinghy,
Speaker 1: and and hopefully his head injury will prevent him from
Speaker 1: remembering our faces. And and that's that. It sounds like
Speaker 1: a Liam Neeson movie. Yeah really, but I mean it
Speaker 1: really is a sensible thing to do. I mean, going,
Speaker 1: you know, take his body and hauling it out way
Speaker 1: out towards the sea and dumping and stuff like that
Speaker 1: doesn't really make a lot of sense unless you're trying
Speaker 1: to hide the body. Well yeah, but I mean it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, if you're just doing a little robbery kind
Speaker 1: of thing, if you do happen to get little robbery
Speaker 1: thing you to say it. Look, you know, we had
Speaker 1: no intention of hurting anybody, you know, he just got
Speaker 1: kind of hit on the head, and nobody intended to
Speaker 1: hurt anybody. Yeah whatever, you know, I mean, it makes
Speaker 1: but but then what really doesn't make any sense just
Speaker 1: to get rid of the body and then trying to
Speaker 1: draw attention to the boat by trying to think it
Speaker 1: that doesn't really make sense for anybody to do that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, there's there's a whole I mean, the motive
Speaker 1: thing here's it's weird. Yeah, it's it's very very loose. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess it's it's a plausible theory, but it doesn't
Speaker 1: it doesn't really answer most of the questions I have. No,
Speaker 1: it doesn't. And nobody has surfaced really with any kind
Speaker 1: of a motive to do it, unless it was somebody
Speaker 1: completely random, all right. So that leaves us with what
Speaker 1: another p ability, which is that Sue Neil Fraser murdered
Speaker 1: Bob intentionally, intentionally and the evidence kind of looks that way.
Speaker 1: And I mean, to really is the one person who
Speaker 1: had a motive to sink the boat, which would be
Speaker 1: like you know, I might I think about a potential
Speaker 1: motive would have been would be it would have been
Speaker 1: Sue didn't want to be the one to discover, to
Speaker 1: discover the body or the the evidence of foul play
Speaker 1: or anything, So by sinking the vote or at least,
Speaker 1: you know, sending it lower in the water, because she
Speaker 1: knows it's going to take that boat a long time
Speaker 1: to sink, you know, And so she does that and
Speaker 1: then knowing that somebody's probably going to notice and she'll
Speaker 1: be called down there and she can just you know,
Speaker 1: show up and she won't be the first person on
Speaker 1: the murder scene. So you know, that's a possible motive.
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know, it's not rock solid, but
Speaker 1: the only motive I can think of a really sinking
Speaker 1: the boat. I know that this sounds dumb with a boat,
Speaker 1: but it always seems like if you're going to destroy
Speaker 1: the evidence, burning the boat would be much more efficient
Speaker 1: in in destroying evidence than trying to sink it. Well,
Speaker 1: what I would have done if I would think like
Speaker 1: a kerosene landard or something like that, and you just
Speaker 1: push it over on a cushion and then you run
Speaker 1: and leave it's going to catch a fire, Well that
Speaker 1: I was just gonna say, I mean, you know, boats
Speaker 1: sink sometimes, and I don't know that there's a you know,
Speaker 1: if you have insurance on it and your boat sinks
Speaker 1: and you get to claim insurance. I don't know that
Speaker 1: they're going to go in there and be like, oh, look,
Speaker 1: it looks like the three sabotage things are going to
Speaker 1: be like, wow, that sucks your boat. Song, here's the money.
Speaker 1: Somebody's going to investigate a sinking. They always do. It's
Speaker 1: like when airplanes crashed, somebody investigates it, even if it's
Speaker 1: a private craft. Right, But I don't know how how well, yeah,
Speaker 1: how thorough it is or you know, I don't know
Speaker 1: boats well enough to know if you could tell, you know,
Speaker 1: if these certain things were sabotage necessarily or whatever. So
Speaker 1: I guess that's always my assumption with when people try
Speaker 1: to scuttle their boats by sinking them, is that it's
Speaker 1: like that's I mean, that's the easiest way to say, like,
Speaker 1: I don't know if something happened to Thank, Yeah, you know,
Speaker 1: the bilge pump malfunctioned and it stopped pumping and you
Speaker 1: know it sank. Yeah, obviously you know, Sue didn't plan
Speaker 1: the crime as well as she could have if she
Speaker 1: did it. Of course, we don't know. Yeah, I would have.
Speaker 1: You know, if I had been her, I would have
Speaker 1: just I would just not bothered moving the body. I
Speaker 1: would have just you know, put some c for into
Speaker 1: the bottom of the hall on timers and then just
Speaker 1: taking it out to see and set the timers, jumping
Speaker 1: the dingy head back to shore, and the boat blows
Speaker 1: up and it sinks nice and quickly. You don't have
Speaker 1: this hours and hours and hours of slowly sinking it
Speaker 1: just and then you just blame Kevin Spacey for the
Speaker 1: whole thing. It's it's crazy. Yeah, So run through the
Speaker 1: official how this theory works. I mean we just kind
Speaker 1: of danced around it. But the prosecution, Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: give give everybody what you've got here about why Sue
Speaker 1: would have done it or why it's beliefs. Why is
Speaker 1: she's a strong candidate. Yeah, she's a strong candidate because
Speaker 1: she had a motive, financial motive. She's the only person
Speaker 1: that ever talked about killing Bob, and it was just
Speaker 1: numerous people testified that there was tension between them, that
Speaker 1: their relationship didn't seem to be that good. She was
Speaker 1: very near the murder scene the night in question, um,
Speaker 1: and she tried to cover that up and she had
Speaker 1: really kind of super questionable Yeah, well she did. I mean,
Speaker 1: for example, if she did indeed drive down there, take
Speaker 1: the dingy out, and and because the assumption is Bob
Speaker 1: was already dead, she goes out there later to get
Speaker 1: rid of the body, right and souse on she killed
Speaker 1: him early afternoon, early in the middle till late afternoon sometime,
Speaker 1: But well, I had to leave the body because it
Speaker 1: was still daylight and did the sun didn't set till
Speaker 1: eight pm? And so she couldn't get rid of the
Speaker 1: body until after dark. Yeah, And so so she goes
Speaker 1: back down now getting rid of the body's going to
Speaker 1: take her at least two three hours. And that meantime,
Speaker 1: her car is parked right there on Marie bill Esplanade
Speaker 1: or maybe Margaret's Street. And so to account for that,
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean, there's one thing to say, Well, okay,
Speaker 1: I drove down there, looked walked over and looked out,
Speaker 1: came back. But how do you account for the fact
Speaker 1: if somebody springs up Because she had to become aware
Speaker 1: after they found this picture of her car, she had
Speaker 1: to become aware of perhaps other witnesses might come out
Speaker 1: and say, yeah, I remember seeing that parked in front
Speaker 1: of my house for like four hours last day of
Speaker 1: the night. Whatever she becomes aware of, so she cooks
Speaker 1: up this story, which is, Okay, I walked all the
Speaker 1: way down there, I realized I'd forgotten the forgotten all
Speaker 1: the way back home, walked all the way back down
Speaker 1: and and that would account for the car being there
Speaker 1: for this very long period of time, parked in that
Speaker 1: place where you know it shouldn't have been. Uh, And
Speaker 1: that would that would be enough time to do what
Speaker 1: she intended to do, which is go move the body
Speaker 1: and get rid of it, which is why you always
Speaker 1: leave your cell phone at home and you use a
Speaker 1: bicycle to get to the crime scene. Yeah, I I
Speaker 1: time my cell phone to a raccoon's tail. In this case,
Speaker 1: it would have been a test mean sale, which is
Speaker 1: the yeah, well so what and what else is She's
Speaker 1: the one person who, if she needed to get to
Speaker 1: the Four Winds using the four Winds dinghy, would actually
Speaker 1: know where that dinghy belonging to the Four Winds was moored.
Speaker 1: And also the other thing is that if somebody else,
Speaker 1: like say used another boat um some other killer to
Speaker 1: go out to the four winds and commit Verton, which
Speaker 1: is possible, I guess. And why did somebody into the
Speaker 1: very same night somebody Untie sus dinghy and throw us
Speaker 1: the open side to cast to the drift. That's quite
Speaker 1: a major coincidence when you think about it, that yeah,
Speaker 1: that this all happened. And I don't think this crime
Speaker 1: was well planned. I mean, it's entirely possible. I think
Speaker 1: that it was a crime of passion, that they were
Speaker 1: having an argument. She picks up a blond object and
Speaker 1: just bashes Bob over the head with it because she's
Speaker 1: just she snaps and hits him. Didn't really actually go
Speaker 1: down there intending to murder him in cold blood. And
Speaker 1: the reason I think that is it's just not a
Speaker 1: well planned crime. I mean, the idea of murdering and
Speaker 1: below decks, leaving all that blood evidence down there and everything,
Speaker 1: and having to go to the huge hassle of hauling
Speaker 1: his body up and getting it into that dinghy. I
Speaker 1: mean I would have if I had been her, I
Speaker 1: would have lured him into the dinging and then backed
Speaker 1: him over the head. I suspect I actually think she
Speaker 1: might have actually hit him with the fire extinguisher. Actually,
Speaker 1: you know, that would account for it being missing too.
Speaker 1: It's a murder weapon and also you know, communithing to
Speaker 1: weigh somebody down with. Yeah. Yeah, although you know again
Speaker 1: murder tip fire extinguishers even when they're heavy, they have
Speaker 1: a big old fat air bubble right in the middle
Speaker 1: of them. Don't use a fire extinguisher, use lead, just
Speaker 1: a cast iron something, yeah, because cast iron is so
Speaker 1: handy to layman to these days. Actually you can get
Speaker 1: check cast iron cheap, go out and craigslisted by a
Speaker 1: used weight set Olympic weight set, you know. And that's
Speaker 1: and and there's just just dirt cheap and it's super
Speaker 1: easy to move around in your ding, you to. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: it takes up a lot less space than concrete, and
Speaker 1: unlike concrete, little bits of it don't crumble off, you know.
Speaker 1: And also it's a lot denser than concrete. Less point.
Speaker 1: So yeah, cast iron all the way. Red bodies, Yeah,
Speaker 1: but Mr Universe and dump a body. Yeah. So here's
Speaker 1: and this is one of the things I do. I think,
Speaker 1: I think, well, how would I have done the crime?
Speaker 1: And that that's it again. First off, wait till after
Speaker 1: right after dark, lure Bob into the dinghy by pretending
Speaker 1: not to be able to get it started or something
Speaker 1: hit him over the head. You've already got two hunder
Speaker 1: pounds of cast iron stashed at the bottom of the dinghy,
Speaker 1: So and you head on out towards see Tai Bob,
Speaker 1: to the to the dinghy and to the cast iron weights. Uh.
Speaker 1: And then when you're far enough out towards see you
Speaker 1: puncture the dinging again. Put close to shore, puncture the
Speaker 1: dinghy so you can swim to shore, head to dangy
Speaker 1: towards deeper water and swim to shore. And then of
Speaker 1: course you've thoughtfully hid in the moped somewhere nearby to
Speaker 1: get you home. And wah huh. That's that's the way
Speaker 1: I would have committed this murder, Sue. Obviously. It just
Speaker 1: doesn't think about things quite the way I do think it.
Speaker 1: I think, Sue did it. I don't know what you guys,
Speaker 1: I think. Did I think? Well, listen, you know, I
Speaker 1: realized that we glossed over a theory in a theory,
Speaker 1: which is the Bob died by accident theory. So your
Speaker 1: your theory Bob died by accident. And then she tried
Speaker 1: to hide. It excludes the Bob died by accident and
Speaker 1: disappeared by accident and she's just a ding dong and
Speaker 1: got herself in trouble. I mean, if he's working on Okay, listen,
Speaker 1: I just thought about this because it just kind of
Speaker 1: one of those things that happens to me every four
Speaker 1: or five stories. It clicks, my brain turns on. If
Speaker 1: he's working on the boat, it's entirely possible that he
Speaker 1: could have hurt himself, which would have accounted for blood
Speaker 1: being sprayed around he's working on the boat, which would
Speaker 1: explain why carpet tiles are pulled up and ladders are
Speaker 1: loose and stuff like that. And we've also seemed to
Speaker 1: have agreed that Bob is a bit clumsy, because she
Speaker 1: says he's bad at getting off the boat, shed that
Speaker 1: other people contradicted that. Okay, but but maybe he's not
Speaker 1: the best semen in the world. And at this point
Speaker 1: he is bleeding and he runs up onto the top
Speaker 1: of the boat and falls off the boat. I mean,
Speaker 1: it's entirely possible that he is then literally swept out
Speaker 1: to see because he is outside of the marina. It's
Speaker 1: not as his body's gonna get trapped in underneath everything.
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it is possible that she know that
Speaker 1: what she said those dumb as it is is the truth,
Speaker 1: and Bob hurt himself, sprayed blood all over, and then
Speaker 1: fell off the boat. I don't think that's really it,
Speaker 1: but it's possible, just like everything else we've talked about,
Speaker 1: except the Tasmanian devil, because that one's not right. You
Speaker 1: don't like that one. I know it's not real. And
Speaker 1: I never spins over water. I don't even know if
Speaker 1: they I don't know if they swim either. To be honestly,
Speaker 1: don't I don't, I don't, I don't know. I think
Speaker 1: she killed him. Yeah, I don't see any other way.
Speaker 1: I'm surprised that this is as controversial as it is
Speaker 1: because there's just no other explanation. Even memory loss is
Speaker 1: not account for the strange story about walking down in
Speaker 1: the car twice in the middle of the night, like
Speaker 1: you would have remembered that. I write like there's at
Speaker 1: some point, yes, the memory loss, fine, whatever, get confused
Speaker 1: about what story you were at and well, but if
Speaker 1: you walked eight freaking miles in the middle of the night,
Speaker 1: you would remember that, and you would probably tell people
Speaker 1: that like immediately, Well, I don't know. It's not just
Speaker 1: the inconsistency of the stories or the memory loss or anything.
Speaker 1: It's the whole question of why the hell would she
Speaker 1: do it to begin with. You know, it's like, I
Speaker 1: really wanted to get the car. Well, why don't you
Speaker 1: just wait till morning and walk down then, I mean,
Speaker 1: go ahead, and you go back to sleep and walk
Speaker 1: down I mean walking down there in the middle of
Speaker 1: the night made utterly no sense. And again the whole
Speaker 1: idea that that's uh that somebody else killed Bob, Well,
Speaker 1: that's fine, I can entirely see that. But then you
Speaker 1: got this amazing coincidence of all these strange things that
Speaker 1: Sue did that night. She went walked back and forth
Speaker 1: and back and forth with the car. But it's also
Speaker 1: Dinghy comes untied, and even though she said she was
Speaker 1: never anywhere near she went out to the end of
Speaker 1: a pier to look for Bob, but the witness was
Speaker 1: right there and she didn't she was not there at
Speaker 1: the pier. Well, I mean, it's also you know, it's
Speaker 1: the timing with which she suddenly came forward with this
Speaker 1: stuff suspicious too. Yeah, it's if you're only coming out
Speaker 1: with this stuff when somebody says, okay, but we saw
Speaker 1: your car, and she goes, oh, yeah, you're right, I remember.
Speaker 1: This is what happened. Obviously, you're lying about it, obviously.
Speaker 1: And that's the thing is that it's so truely if
Speaker 1: there's truly is a miscarriage of justice, and all student
Speaker 1: needs to do is like give us an honest accounting,
Speaker 1: what the hell and what what were you up to
Speaker 1: that night? She may be ashamed to admit what she
Speaker 1: was up to. I mean, it's entirely possible that she
Speaker 1: didn't do what she said. She was with somebody else.
Speaker 1: Maybe their relationship truly was done to her and she
Speaker 1: was fooling around and that's why she left the car
Speaker 1: there overnight. Fair enough, But if you are looking at
Speaker 1: twenty eight years in prison, aren't you going to be like,
Speaker 1: you're right, I lied, I was sleeping with this person,
Speaker 1: and they will corroborate my story. They're how old was
Speaker 1: Sue at the time of her conviction? Okay, there there
Speaker 1: are people of that generation that admitting things like having
Speaker 1: an illicit of fair they would rather die first. They
Speaker 1: weren't married, but but they were they might well be,
Speaker 1: and there are people who they would rather die first
Speaker 1: than admit that they were going outside of socially acceptable behavior.
Speaker 1: There's been accounts of this before, whereas you know, it
Speaker 1: wasn't until the other person came forward to say, listen, dummy,
Speaker 1: over there, he and I were doing it. So obviously
Speaker 1: he wasn't there, and he would still be denied. I mean,
Speaker 1: people do this stuff. It's flawed logic, but it happens. Well,
Speaker 1: we just have to agree to disagree on that she
Speaker 1: killed him. She killed him? Yeah, yeah, he's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: so you I feel Joe's cell phone is still strapped
Speaker 1: to a raccoons tale. Oh yeah, but but anyway, all
Speaker 1: you folks down, I know you can go to sleep,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, stop works, stop arguing with one another.
Speaker 1: You know it's done. We've decided Sue is guilty. All right,
Speaker 1: Well that's it. Another mystery solved. Um. Anyway, if you've
Speaker 1: got a theory of your own, or if I've mispronounced
Speaker 1: any words, if you're suing in prison and you want
Speaker 1: to argue with us, say that's fine. You can email
Speaker 1: us or the email is Thinking Sideways podcast at gmail
Speaker 1: dot com. So yeah, tell us what you think. And
Speaker 1: we also have a website, Thinking Sideways podcast dot com
Speaker 1: where you can download and listen to our episodes. We
Speaker 1: have merg um what else, We've got an episode list. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and that's kind of a new thing. Um, so definitely
Speaker 1: go check that out. We're also on iTunes where you
Speaker 1: can download and listen to subscribe, give us a rating,
Speaker 1: and give us a review, a good review. We like those. Uh.
Speaker 1: And of course you can stream us from god knows
Speaker 1: how many places. Yeah, a lot of places, Google everywhere
Speaker 1: in the internet. Yeah. We're on social media. We're on
Speaker 1: Facebook where we have a group and a page. Uh.
Speaker 1: So don't we want you want to like the page,
Speaker 1: join the group. Yeah, that's it. Don't friend the page now,
Speaker 1: just join the group. Uh. And that's how you can
Speaker 1: hang out with us and all of our buddies. And
Speaker 1: there's lots of fun stuff happening out there. Yeah. We're
Speaker 1: also on Twitter where we are Thinking Sideways without the gene,
Speaker 1: and there's lots of fun stuff going on out there.
Speaker 1: Devin is posting all the time, like instantly. Yeah. I
Speaker 1: mean you're like a fiend, like a Tasmanian double on
Speaker 1: those Oh yeah, yeah, what else. We gotta subreddit, which
Speaker 1: is you know, kind of active sort of, and I
Speaker 1: need to get out there actually more often. But there
Speaker 1: is a subreddit thinking sideways. Uh. And of course you
Speaker 1: know what else. We've got merchandise. We've got shirts, but
Speaker 1: stickers as a little red bubble stores there on the
Speaker 1: right hand side of our website. Well, I guess that's
Speaker 1: about it. Trying to wrap this thing up and head
Speaker 1: on home. You guys, got any last thoughts coming, Let's
Speaker 1: steam it out of here, alright. No, I can't even
Speaker 1: pawn right now. I'm sorry. Yeah, you're at the wheel,
Speaker 1: all right, guys, We'll see you next week. Bye bye.