WEBVTT - Weekend Bonus: Crypto IRL, Episode 6, with Tim and Katie 0:00:03.640 --> 0:00:06.760 This is Bloomberg Crypto, a daily Bloomberg I Heard podcast, 0:00:07.120 --> 0:00:10.160 and I'm Stacy Murray Ishmael, Managing editor of Crypto for 0:00:10.160 --> 0:00:29.040 Bloomberg News. Yes, I know it's Saturday, but we're here 0:00:29.040 --> 0:00:32.520 to offer you our listeners a special audio only version 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:35.640 of a new weekly video series called Crypto I r L. 0:00:36.200 --> 0:00:39.120 That's I r L Like in Real Life, and it's 0:00:39.159 --> 0:00:42.159 hosted by friends of the show, Katie Greifeld and Tim Stenovic. 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:45.600 This is episode six. If you want the full video experience, 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:48.839 head over to Bloomberg dot com, slash qt or check 0:00:48.880 --> 0:01:18.560 it out on YouTube. Tim, where are we? Obviously we 0:01:18.560 --> 0:01:20.720 are in an art gallery or I don't know, a museum. 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:23.720 That obvious. It's obvious to me. Okay, fine, why are 0:01:23.760 --> 0:01:28.240 we here? Well? Really, it's just some sort of convoluted metaphor, 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:31.120 or at least device to give a little bit of 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.160 that extra to the top of our show. This one 0:01:34.240 --> 0:01:38.640 is particularly tortured. How dare you do you remember? I 0:01:38.680 --> 0:01:41.919 do well? They were supposed to transform the stodgy world 0:01:41.959 --> 0:01:46.120 of museums and art galleries into something perfit for the metaverse. 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:52.000 What do you think is this it? Yeah? What do 0:01:52.000 --> 0:02:02.120 you think? I don't like her. Okay. Just a few 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:04.920 months ago, n f t s were all the rage. 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:07.880 Barris Hilton went on Jimmy Fallon to explain what they were, 0:02:08.240 --> 0:02:10.560 only to return a few months later to have Fallon 0:02:10.600 --> 0:02:13.959 show off his very own board eight, something he reportedly 0:02:14.000 --> 0:02:17.440 spent more than two grand on. People were talking about 0:02:17.560 --> 0:02:20.799 n f t s not just as exclusive and expensive collectibles, 0:02:20.840 --> 0:02:23.680 but also as a way to transform the creative world. 0:02:24.120 --> 0:02:26.200 If we put art on a blockchain, we'd see a 0:02:26.240 --> 0:02:29.320 fundamental shift in power from the middleman to the creative. 0:02:29.919 --> 0:02:32.520 Instead of a gallery making all the money, an artist 0:02:32.560 --> 0:02:34.480 would get a cut each time their piece was sold. 0:02:35.120 --> 0:02:38.040 It would be easier for musicians to retain creative control. 0:02:38.840 --> 0:02:41.360 But interest in n f t s has fallen off 0:02:41.400 --> 0:02:44.239 a cliff. Trading volumes for n f t s, which 0:02:44.520 --> 0:02:47.160 are basically just digital art and collectibles that are recorded 0:02:47.160 --> 0:02:51.360 on blockchains, has tumbled from a record high in January. 0:02:52.240 --> 0:02:54.200 As the hype around n f T s has died down, 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:56.840 companies are now trying to find a use for them. 0:02:57.040 --> 0:03:00.240 Nike bought an n f T studio, Starbucks is an 0:03:00.320 --> 0:03:02.920 n f T rewards program, and luxury players such as 0:03:02.960 --> 0:03:05.960 Gucci and Tiffany have launched n f T S. So 0:03:06.200 --> 0:03:08.440 what's the path forward for n f T s. Will 0:03:08.440 --> 0:03:11.480 we find a good use for the underlying technology, or 0:03:11.720 --> 0:03:14.440 as some critics say, our n f T is worthless 0:03:14.440 --> 0:03:17.000 and just the stuff of hucksters trying to pray on 0:03:17.120 --> 0:03:26.640 the unsophisticated. How would you explain what you do to 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:30.679 a five year old? What I do now is I 0:03:30.760 --> 0:03:34.520 run the consumer business at a company who does security 0:03:34.600 --> 0:03:36.880 for digital assets. And if I was talking to a 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:42.040 five year old, I'd probably say there is digital stuff. 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:43.880 It would be much easier if it was a fifteen 0:03:43.960 --> 0:03:46.320 year old, because you would say, do you know if 0:03:46.320 --> 0:03:48.720 you ever ever bought a skin in a game? And 0:03:48.760 --> 0:03:50.960 they would say yes, and I'd say, okay, well we 0:03:51.040 --> 0:03:53.760 make sure nobody can steal those things from you. Let's 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:56.200 bump it up to a ten year old, still prepubescent. 0:03:56.360 --> 0:04:01.680 Your title is chief experience officer? What is chief experience 0:04:01.720 --> 0:04:05.600 officer me? And when we're talking about the digital world, well, 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:08.840 you know, we're in the very early stages of this 0:04:08.920 --> 0:04:14.480 transition to a world that actually has digital stuff, digital belongings, 0:04:14.680 --> 0:04:18.000 scarce digital goods, digital things that you could lose, and 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:21.000 the user experience is pretty bad, you know. I mean 0:04:21.120 --> 0:04:23.520 there's you know, it's sort of like the early days 0:04:23.560 --> 0:04:25.560 of the Internet. You didn't say go to my website. 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.960 You said get a computer, get a modem, get an 0:04:28.960 --> 0:04:31.240 I SP get a web browser. Okay, now go to 0:04:31.320 --> 0:04:34.320 my website. You know. Now you just say like, hey, Siri, 0:04:34.440 --> 0:04:36.279 go to a website, and it goes to the website. 0:04:36.320 --> 0:04:38.880 You know, that's a That's what's happened over the last 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:41.000 twenty five years. The same thing will happen over the 0:04:41.000 --> 0:04:43.640 next twenty five years in the world of digital assets 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:46.560 and cryptocurrency and digital value. Well, I want to talk 0:04:46.560 --> 0:04:48.960 about some of those digital assets. Um. We're going to 0:04:49.040 --> 0:04:51.560 speak later in this episode with John Rick Start and 0:04:51.680 --> 0:04:55.320 he basically thinks that digital assets are a scam. And 0:04:55.400 --> 0:04:58.200 we're not necessarily just talking crypto here, we're talking from 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:02.479 the n f T perspective, the idea of h digital 0:05:02.520 --> 0:05:06.039 goods that don't exist in the real world but only 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:10.960 exist online. UM. Kind of like the equivalent in the 0:05:10.960 --> 0:05:13.800 metaverse or online version of like owning a pet rock, 0:05:13.920 --> 0:05:16.000 buying a pet rock? Did you did you ever have 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:18.760 a pet rock? I never had a pet rock. I 0:05:18.760 --> 0:05:20.720 think I know my daughter at a Toma Gucci. So 0:05:20.800 --> 0:05:22.320 we could use that as an analogy. Wait, what did 0:05:22.360 --> 0:05:25.920 you say, my daughter at a Toma Gucci. Yeah, we 0:05:25.960 --> 0:05:27.680 could use that. We could use that analogy. Did you 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:29.960 have a Toma Gucchi? I think it's Tamagotchi. Did you 0:05:30.000 --> 0:05:32.279 have one of those? I had a Tomagotchi for sure. 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:36.880 Also also had a new pet was big. Yeah. Yeah, 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.680 I feel like that was the original metaverse and sort 0:05:40.680 --> 0:05:43.560 of your neo pets for the original and f t 0:05:43.800 --> 0:05:46.080 s I mean new Points. I lived and died by those, 0:05:46.120 --> 0:05:48.479 even though they were virtual currencies. Actually don't know what 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:50.520 you're talking about, but the fact is that there are 0:05:50.520 --> 0:05:52.280 there are a lot of critics. You just say, this 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:55.400 stuff is worthless, it only exists in a digital space, 0:05:55.720 --> 0:05:58.680 and it's it's not real. We're not buying it. What 0:05:58.720 --> 0:06:02.440 do you say to them? I say, honestly, what I 0:06:02.480 --> 0:06:06.680 say is eventually you'll be dead. Because you know a younger, 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:10.360 younger generations who grew up, you know, through COVID and 0:06:10.520 --> 0:06:13.520 go to school on Zoom and live digital lives and 0:06:13.520 --> 0:06:16.520 spend eight plus hours a day on on their phones, 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:20.240 and you know that it's not a foreign concept to 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:23.760 them at all, and also, you know, look, I'm fifty 0:06:23.800 --> 0:06:26.840 years old and I you know, graduated college in nine 0:06:27.279 --> 0:06:29.320 and I remember very well the people who told me 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:32.920 the Internet is nonsense, the Internet will never work. I'm 0:06:32.960 --> 0:06:35.120 really glad that you brought up the example of the 0:06:35.160 --> 0:06:37.720 internet because I've actually tweeted to this effect before. Like, 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.240 if I think about what I would have tweeted in 0:06:41.320 --> 0:06:44.279 the early two thousand's about the Internet, they would have 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:47.400 been absolutely terrible. But to that point, I would have 0:06:48.160 --> 0:06:50.800 really said a lot of really stupid things that are 0:06:50.800 --> 0:06:54.960 now stupid in hindsight. But the point remains the Internet. 0:06:55.320 --> 0:06:57.840 I can see a use case, you know, I can 0:06:57.920 --> 0:07:00.240 I have just the entire world of information at my 0:07:00.279 --> 0:07:03.880 fingertips um. You know. For a smartphone, I also see 0:07:03.880 --> 0:07:05.680 the use case. Maybe it costs way too much, but 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:07.680 it does have a use case. But for n f 0:07:07.720 --> 0:07:12.720 T s, what is the use case? I mean, there 0:07:12.720 --> 0:07:15.600 are tons, So let's like, let's like figure out where 0:07:15.640 --> 0:07:17.480 we want to start. I mean, there are there are 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:19.840 tons of things you have a lot of Let's just 0:07:19.880 --> 0:07:22.840 go with something very simple. Fifteen years from now, your 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:25.960 government issued I D will be a digital asset. I mean, 0:07:26.000 --> 0:07:28.680 I find it super ironic that the the technology I 0:07:28.760 --> 0:07:30.360 used to get into parties at n f T n 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:33.560 y C was technically more secure and better than the 0:07:33.600 --> 0:07:36.040 technology I used to get into the United States from 0:07:36.040 --> 0:07:38.280 France to come you know, to come to America. So 0:07:38.320 --> 0:07:40.880 that's just a very simple one. Now. Look at even 0:07:40.960 --> 0:07:43.080 just like the fact that when you use Apple Pay 0:07:43.080 --> 0:07:46.120 to pay at the local um vegetable shop, which you 0:07:46.160 --> 0:07:48.400 know in my neighborhood in Paris, they didn't want to 0:07:48.440 --> 0:07:50.720 do three years ago, right. It took COVID to get 0:07:50.760 --> 0:07:53.200 them to actually want to take digital money. But why 0:07:53.320 --> 0:07:56.040 is Visa International involved in that transaction? Right? And my 0:07:56.200 --> 0:07:58.480 and my am I taking it on credit. I'm not. 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:02.320 I'm trying to do a cash digital cash settlement right um. 0:08:02.360 --> 0:08:05.520 And that's actually technically possible but not yet happening. So 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:07.200 these are just the most basic of things. You know. 0:08:07.240 --> 0:08:10.200 I just spent five years working with lvmh um, you know, 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:14.440 Louis Butan Moah Hennessy, big luxury conglomerate. You know, the 0:08:14.480 --> 0:08:16.320 people who are in the luxury business have spent the 0:08:16.400 --> 0:08:18.880 last how however many years, you know, trying to explain 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:21.360 to people why you have a three thousand dollar handbag, 0:08:21.880 --> 0:08:24.040 Why do you have a three thousand dollar handbag. Why 0:08:24.040 --> 0:08:25.600 do you wear a T shirt? Says Thrasher. Why do 0:08:25.640 --> 0:08:27.360 you wear a T shirt? Says Slayer? Why do you 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:29.560 do so many? Why do you have a MySpace page? 0:08:29.600 --> 0:08:32.880 Once upon a time? Right to be an individual like 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:36.760 this is just you know, basic human um you know, 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:41.160 uh kind of behavior. Let's look at another example I 0:08:41.240 --> 0:08:43.760 love to use is just the example of digital art. 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:46.120 I mean, we agree that there's an art market, right, 0:08:46.240 --> 0:08:49.160 we agree that a boscyott is not worth what it's 0:08:49.200 --> 0:08:53.000 worth because of the wood and the paint. Right, It's 0:08:53.360 --> 0:08:56.040 it's a cultural artifact, right, A piece of art is 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:59.240 a is a cultural artifact. And you know the reality 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:02.840 is that there are any great um digital artists out there. 0:09:03.120 --> 0:09:07.400 And when two people have a value exchange around creativity, 0:09:07.760 --> 0:09:10.360 I would say that's a more beautiful digital business than 0:09:10.440 --> 0:09:13.560 say an advertising business where you steal someone's attention and 0:09:13.559 --> 0:09:15.360 sell it to someone else. Can I just make one 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:17.839 point really quickly? As you were talking about my Space, 0:09:17.880 --> 0:09:20.080 it occurred to me I actually spent money for Neo 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:23.200 Pet's premium account just so that I could unlock certain 0:09:23.240 --> 0:09:26.600 things and certain features to put on my Neo Pet Unfortunately, 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:30.560 you're seeing the evolution of my thinking in real time. So, 0:09:30.600 --> 0:09:33.520 speaking of art and cultural artifacts, I'm glad you brought 0:09:33.520 --> 0:09:35.840 it up, because I have some fine art right here. 0:09:36.120 --> 0:09:39.880 This is the Mona Lisa. What is that? Is that you? 0:09:40.160 --> 0:09:41.960 This is yeah? This is me, this is the Mona 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:44.360 This is me as the Mona Lisa. That's awful. I 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:47.600 don't like this, Katie didn't know. I don't have a 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:50.360 better reaction than that. That is just fell did you 0:09:50.360 --> 0:09:53.679 bring this because I live in Paris, But I mean 0:09:53.679 --> 0:09:56.200 you've probably seen the real thing at the loop. But 0:09:55.920 --> 0:09:59.199 it actually it's quite small. It raises it's probably it's 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:02.880 like about this. It raises an important question though, I mean, 0:10:03.600 --> 0:10:06.760 doesn't matter that if I have a print out like this, 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:12.240 doesn't matter that it's not the original. Um from an 0:10:12.360 --> 0:10:16.400 n f T perspective, like if you have a replica 0:10:16.520 --> 0:10:18.319 of an n f T or if you have like 0:10:18.520 --> 0:10:22.040 a replication and the Mona Lisa is a great example. 0:10:22.080 --> 0:10:24.720 I mean, um, you know, I have been to see 0:10:24.720 --> 0:10:27.800 the Mona Lisa to love more than once. Every time 0:10:27.840 --> 0:10:30.160 I've gone. The room is full of people who want 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:31.880 to see the Mona Lisa and take pictures of it 0:10:32.320 --> 0:10:35.720 right now, You go outside two feet and there's a 0:10:35.800 --> 0:10:38.120 thousand Mona lisas. There's Mona Lisa is on t shirts. 0:10:38.160 --> 0:10:40.199 You want to buy another one? My favorite is the 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:42.960 Mona Lisa. There's dabbing right. Um, that's a that's a 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:45.720 popular one these days. Um, But it doesn't really seem 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:47.920 to prevent people from wanting to see the real thing, 0:10:48.400 --> 0:10:52.040 right because there is actually only one. And let's be honest, like, 0:10:52.400 --> 0:10:55.920 human beings are story consuming creatures, right, It's not the 0:10:56.080 --> 0:10:59.199 Mona Lisa. It's it's the fact that the Mona Lisa 0:10:59.240 --> 0:11:02.679 has notoriety. Mona Lisa has notoriety for particular reasons, and 0:11:02.720 --> 0:11:04.440 the Mona Lisa has become the Mona Lisa and the 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.080 subject of a slick Rick song and the subject of like, 0:11:07.160 --> 0:11:09.640 you know, heist movies or whatever she's smiling at. I 0:11:09.679 --> 0:11:14.560 don't know. It's storytelling. This is all storytelling. We are 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:17.920 story consuming creatures. That's part of the reason I love 0:11:18.000 --> 0:11:21.000 this space is because it makes you ask those original 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:23.320 questions of like what is value? What is money? What 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:27.840 do we care about? As people? Um? Look, I find 0:11:27.840 --> 0:11:31.120 this stuff quite easy, frankly, because I grew up collecting 0:11:31.160 --> 0:11:35.960 records I grew up um collecting fanzines and skateboarding and 0:11:36.000 --> 0:11:38.280 being a part of these You know. Again, you you 0:11:38.360 --> 0:11:40.280 wear a T shirt that when you wear it to 0:11:40.320 --> 0:11:43.400 the mall, you know, if there's another skateboarder, they come 0:11:43.480 --> 0:11:44.840 up to you. Right, that was what it was like 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.360 in the eighties. Um, So to me, these things make 0:11:47.400 --> 0:11:48.760 a ton of sense, you know. And what I say 0:11:48.800 --> 0:11:51.199 to my colleagues at LVMH is who you know, had 0:11:51.200 --> 0:11:54.040 this similar conversation with often. You know, you're you want 0:11:54.040 --> 0:11:56.120 to tell me that if I kill a cow and 0:11:56.160 --> 0:11:58.640 I colored the skin and I cut it into pieces 0:11:58.640 --> 0:12:01.160 and I stitched it together into a bag, go, that's craft. 0:12:01.720 --> 0:12:07.400 But when Matt Caine makes an extraordinarily complex, beautiful artistic product, 0:12:07.920 --> 0:12:11.600 our project called Gazers, Oh that's not craft. Why because 0:12:11.600 --> 0:12:15.040 it's digital? Oh come on, I honestly, I like, I'm 0:12:15.040 --> 0:12:17.880 offended that you would even that, that someone would even 0:12:17.880 --> 0:12:20.360 say that, because it's an individual. It's an artist who 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.440 has a craft. Now, again, whether you like a Louis 0:12:22.440 --> 0:12:24.280 Baton handbag or not, you don't need to. Lots of 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:27.079 people don't. Whether you like Matt Caine's Gazers or not, 0:12:27.280 --> 0:12:29.800 that's up to you, but don't deny that people do 0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:31.920 write Ian Rodgers. We're gonna have to leave it there. 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:39.160 Thank you so much, thanks for having me this special 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:41.640 audio only episode of Crypto I r L. Will be 0:12:41.760 --> 0:12:44.360 right back with more from Katie Greifeld and Tim Stanovic. 0:12:44.760 --> 0:12:47.559 If you want the full video experience, head to Bloomberg 0:12:47.600 --> 0:13:01.480 dot com slash qt. We're talking to n f t 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:04.240 s and we're talking about their use cases when it 0:13:04.240 --> 0:13:06.480 comes to arts, So we should probably talk to an 0:13:06.559 --> 0:13:10.280 artist people. Pleaser is what she goes by, but also 0:13:10.360 --> 0:13:12.720 her real name Emily Yang. E'mily, good to see you. 0:13:13.080 --> 0:13:15.440 So what what do you see as the possibilities for 0:13:15.559 --> 0:13:16.920 n f t s when it comes to your work 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:20.199 and when it comes to your life? Well, I mean, 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:22.920 I really shouldn't be saying this as an artist, but 0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:26.400 it makes sense that n f T started taking off 0:13:26.400 --> 0:13:30.080 because of art because it's visual and humans are visual creatures, 0:13:30.160 --> 0:13:32.240 so you know, it's easier for us to make the 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:36.200 connection in our brains. But UM, my opinion is that 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:39.560 n f t s should be way more than art 0:13:39.679 --> 0:13:42.080 and it should actually just be sort of the underlying 0:13:42.120 --> 0:13:49.079 technology that runs infrastructure in society, um, including you know, documentation, 0:13:49.400 --> 0:13:53.200 ticketing and things like that. But to your point that 0:13:53.280 --> 0:13:57.760 there's uses for n f t s beyond art, do 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:00.560 you think that n f t s are the best 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:07.120 vehicle for art? Uh? If you don't like physical things, 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:12.280 then probably I've adopted a much more nomadic lifestyle recently, 0:14:12.360 --> 0:14:15.000 like many others in crypto. And then you actually just 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:18.880 get into this mindset of not wanting physical things because 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:21.360 they're a burden when you travel, and a lot of people, 0:14:21.680 --> 0:14:23.440 you know in the real world have too much money 0:14:23.480 --> 0:14:25.280 and don't know where to spend it. Also by art 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:29.200 and the store and what are those called ports ports? Yeah, 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:34.360 for tax purposes, right, Yeah, But like that's taking up space. 0:14:35.320 --> 0:14:37.280 Maybe that was just an episode of Billions I saw. 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:42.160 I don't know if that actually happens. And so, you know, 0:14:42.320 --> 0:14:45.600 I'm all for nowadays, like being able to flex that 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:47.400 I spent a lot of money on a piece of art, 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:50.880 but I don't have to I just pull up my phone. 0:14:49.960 --> 0:14:53.400 How do you flex that you spend money on a 0:14:53.400 --> 0:14:55.720 piece of art that doesn't exist in the physical world. 0:14:57.040 --> 0:15:01.840 I mean, you can take a screenshot of the purchase 0:15:01.960 --> 0:15:05.320 and then post it on your Instagram story, but couldn't 0:15:05.360 --> 0:15:08.840 somebody then take a screenshot of your Instagram story and 0:15:08.840 --> 0:15:10.720 post it on their Instagram story and it looks no 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:14.000 different than Sure, if you own a Ferrari and then 0:15:14.080 --> 0:15:16.000 I went to your house, I can sit in your 0:15:16.000 --> 0:15:18.920 Ferrari and take a photo, and then I can pretend 0:15:18.920 --> 0:15:20.960 that it's mine, and a lot of the f X 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:26.000 scammers on Instagram do that. Wait, but there is if 0:15:26.000 --> 0:15:29.080 we play this metaphor completely. The difference is that if 0:15:29.120 --> 0:15:31.440 the Ferrari's mine, I can drive it around and it 0:15:31.480 --> 0:15:34.840 can take me places and it drives fast. Well, if 0:15:34.840 --> 0:15:37.120 you knew how to use etheroryum, you'd be able to 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:39.960 interact with your n f T or transferred to somebody. 0:15:40.000 --> 0:15:44.240 I couldn't transfer that n f T to myself, right, 0:15:46.960 --> 0:15:48.320 I don't know where to go from there. That was 0:15:48.360 --> 0:15:51.840 a good point. So, John, what what is your issue 0:15:52.120 --> 0:15:55.760 with n f T s. What's your problem with them? 0:15:55.840 --> 0:15:58.200 The problem that I have with the fact that you've 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:03.520 got a some sort of fractionalized hyperlink to a jpeg 0:16:03.560 --> 0:16:07.120 file or the metadata of a jpeg file as a 0:16:07.160 --> 0:16:12.200 representation of some sort of investment. What my problem with 0:16:12.240 --> 0:16:15.560 that is, It's ridiculous, it's absurd. There's nothing to it. 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:18.720 It's a giant scam. It's a giant Ponzi scheme, turns 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:22.320 victims into victimizers. It's one of the most absurd things 0:16:22.320 --> 0:16:24.920 that has come up, and it it evolved from you know, 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:27.720 they had initial coin offerings, but the SEC cracked down 0:16:27.720 --> 0:16:31.600 on those, and then you know, lending products and staff's 0:16:31.840 --> 0:16:33.800 s a f T s, the SEC crackdown on those. 0:16:33.840 --> 0:16:37.360 So it's just an end run around that with more nonsense, 0:16:37.680 --> 0:16:41.600 more crypto nonsense. So it sounds like your problem isn't 0:16:41.720 --> 0:16:44.160 just with n f T, so it goes beyond that, 0:16:44.240 --> 0:16:46.960 deeper than that, it's with sort of the idea of 0:16:47.000 --> 0:16:52.840 the crypto ecosystem in general. Oh. Absolutely. Look, I worked 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:55.480 at the SEC in the Enforcement Division for almost twenty years. 0:16:55.480 --> 0:16:58.200 I was eleven years chief of the Office of Internet Enforcement. 0:16:58.440 --> 0:17:00.680 I've been teaching law school at George Town and Duke 0:17:00.800 --> 0:17:04.760 for twenty years and this stuff is so obviously a 0:17:04.840 --> 0:17:08.639 scam to me on so many levels. So all of 0:17:08.640 --> 0:17:12.919 this hype and nonsense is just awful, and it's it's really, 0:17:13.440 --> 0:17:16.199 I think, done some awful things to the world. So 0:17:16.280 --> 0:17:22.040 it sounds like you're not a hoddler God, No, just 0:17:22.200 --> 0:17:23.960 we got that. I mean, we got that out of 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:28.959 the way. The externalities are so terrible, ransomware attacks. I mean, 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:32.840 it does have one good use for criminals. John, what 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:36.720 if it's I get what you're saying. I completely get 0:17:36.760 --> 0:17:39.120 what you're saying, and it actually it does make sense 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:41.760 to me. But what if you think about it from 0:17:41.760 --> 0:17:44.400 the perspective of a luxury good, and you think about 0:17:44.440 --> 0:17:46.760 it from the perspective of somebody who lives online and 0:17:46.760 --> 0:17:48.920 who does play a lot of games and does believe 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:51.960 there is going to be a metaverse? You know, why 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:54.440 not pay for a luxury item in your in your 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:58.400 own digital world if after all, I mean, look, I'm 0:17:58.400 --> 0:18:00.880 not buying this stuff, but you know there are people 0:18:00.920 --> 0:18:03.600 who pay two or three hundred bucks for a pair 0:18:03.600 --> 0:18:06.960 of foam slip on shoes that probably cost a couple 0:18:06.960 --> 0:18:11.760 of dollars to actually manufacture. Oh my god, you know 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:19.600 I like, Hey, I'm a sneaker head. You're a sneaker head. Yeah, absolutely, 0:18:19.840 --> 0:18:21.960 a huge sneaker head. I just went to sneaker Con 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:26.240 with my son and bought and sold sneakers. Sneaker head, 0:18:26.320 --> 0:18:30.040 you should love n f T. I'm a sneaker head. 0:18:30.040 --> 0:18:33.119 I'm wearing my my if you can see my brand 0:18:33.160 --> 0:18:35.840 bread's right now, my Jordans ones. So no, of course 0:18:35.880 --> 0:18:37.440 I don't love n f T s because I'm a 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:39.919 sneaker head. I think they're still so ridiculous. If you 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:42.040 want to flex with your n f T, you want 0:18:42.040 --> 0:18:43.600 to buy your n f T and put it as 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:47.120 your your your icon or whatever it is on your 0:18:47.160 --> 0:18:50.639 Twitter account, go ahead, have at it. But the marketplace, 0:18:51.240 --> 0:18:53.600 let's think about the marketplace where n f T s 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:56.479 are bought and sold, because most people buy them thinking wow, 0:18:56.520 --> 0:18:58.040 this is gonna go up and I'm gonna make a 0:18:58.040 --> 0:19:00.600 lot of money. And most of those people are the 0:19:00.600 --> 0:19:03.440 people who aren't very sophisticated when it comes to investing. 0:19:03.920 --> 0:19:08.400 So let's think about that. Those marketplaces, they're incredibly corrupt, 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:14.240 match trades, wash trades. The fraud isn't just encouraged, it's taught. 0:19:14.320 --> 0:19:16.879 Turn on YouTube. If you're promoting an n f T 0:19:17.200 --> 0:19:20.040 and you're not using fraud and match trades and wash 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:23.800 trades and and sock puppets to somehow tout and manipulate 0:19:23.840 --> 0:19:26.280 the price of your n f T, you're committing malpractice 0:19:26.280 --> 0:19:29.480 in that world. So if you want to just buy 0:19:29.480 --> 0:19:32.560 this stupid picture and put it up somewhere. Go ahead, 0:19:32.920 --> 0:19:35.239 and you think that's a flex, go ahead. But but 0:19:35.280 --> 0:19:37.760 if you're buying it as an investment, which most people do, 0:19:38.119 --> 0:19:40.919 it's absurd. And you know that's why the market is tanked. 0:19:41.040 --> 0:19:43.639 I mean, it's just just absolutely tank. People have finally 0:19:43.680 --> 0:19:46.560 figured it out, and it will just keep getting worse 0:19:46.880 --> 0:19:50.280 because it's so ludicrous. You know, it's Alice in Wonderland. 0:19:50.280 --> 0:19:54.879 It's it's absolute nonsense that actually I can explain it 0:19:54.920 --> 0:20:00.440 to you this special audio only episode of Crypto I 0:20:00.560 --> 0:20:02.560 r L will be right back with more from Katie 0:20:02.560 --> 0:20:06.119 Greifeld and Tim Stanovic. If you want the full video experience, 0:20:06.240 --> 0:20:20.760 head to Bloomberg dot com slash qt. I do want 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:24.000 to go down the sneaker head rabbit hole a little 0:20:24.040 --> 0:20:27.280 bit more. Is that in Alice in Wonderland reference. No 0:20:27.359 --> 0:20:31.720 kidding anyway, but I guess what we're The point we're 0:20:31.760 --> 0:20:34.480 trying to make is you're paying a lot of money 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:37.440 for sneakers, which do have a use case, but you're 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:40.040 paying a lot more for the status symbol. If I 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:42.639 have these sneakers, where you could buy a pair of 0:20:42.680 --> 0:20:46.760 sneakers that cost a hundred dollars, but you choose the 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:50.560 luxury item. And for people who live extremely online, I 0:20:50.600 --> 0:20:54.400 mean maybe it's the same sort of vibe. I think 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:56.560 that's fine if you want to go buy your Rolex 0:20:56.640 --> 0:20:59.639 or your Louis Vuitton bag or your Jordan's sneakers and 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:02.520 right around, and then I don't have any problem with that. 0:21:02.760 --> 0:21:05.359 But when you talk about it as an investment, like 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:07.359 the way n f T s are, and you build 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:11.160 a marketplace around that, there's several things that happen. Number One, 0:21:11.359 --> 0:21:13.520 a lot of people get ripped off because they have 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:15.520 no idea what they're buying. They have no idea what 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:18.240 they're doing. They're just hoping it will go up. Number Two, 0:21:18.480 --> 0:21:23.000 criminals will use those marketplaces as places to launder money 0:21:23.119 --> 0:21:27.479 or move money around uh for different nefarious purposes. So 0:21:27.560 --> 0:21:30.640 you're opening up the world to all these dire externalities 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:33.679 and at the same time, you're putting a lot of 0:21:33.720 --> 0:21:36.320 people at risk. And that's why the SEC is there, 0:21:36.359 --> 0:21:39.919 you know. I mean, there's special laws around the way investing. 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:43.720 The way investing is done to protect people and protect them, 0:21:43.760 --> 0:21:46.720 often from themselves. You may be a libertarian and say, look, 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:50.000 I don't want those protections I just believe in caveat 0:21:50.119 --> 0:21:52.000 M tour and I just want to live the way 0:21:52.000 --> 0:21:53.800 that I want to live. Well, that's fine, you can 0:21:53.840 --> 0:21:56.119 make that argument to Congress, but right now we have 0:21:56.240 --> 0:21:59.080 these statutes and these rules so that people can't do 0:21:59.119 --> 0:22:02.760 this kind of stuff. They can't do an initial coin offering, 0:22:03.000 --> 0:22:06.400 they can't do a lending program, they can't do a SAFT. 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:11.040 All of these things are unlawful. John, I do want 0:22:11.040 --> 0:22:13.639 to ask you know, you've mentioned a few different times 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:17.239 that you're a professor. I gotta know what is the 0:22:17.440 --> 0:22:19.760