WEBVTT - Ep. 278: Hunting In Chains 0:00:08.960 --> 0:00:13.320 This is me eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely, 0:00:13.480 --> 0:00:18.320 bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:24.480 can't predict anything presented by first Light, Go farther, stay longer. 0:00:29.760 --> 0:00:34.040 All right, welcome everybody. We're joined. Uh, we're gonna We're 0:00:34.040 --> 0:00:36.920 gonna get there real soon. We're joining in by his historian, 0:00:37.000 --> 0:00:42.440 Scott Guiltner, professor at Culver Stockton College, who we've been 0:00:42.479 --> 0:00:44.680 wanting to have you on for a long long time. 0:00:45.479 --> 0:00:47.680 Do we get like derailed by COVID or what happened? 0:00:47.720 --> 0:00:50.080 I can't remember. I'm not sure, but it's it's great 0:00:50.080 --> 0:00:51.919 to be here. This is pretty exciting. But it's been 0:00:51.960 --> 0:00:53.280 a while that we try to get you on. Yeah, 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.040 it's been a while, I think, Uh, he's all. You 0:00:56.080 --> 0:00:58.400 probably don't. You probably wrote a bunch of things, different 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:00.400 papers and whatnot, a lot of paper. This is the 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:02.560 only book. I sort of thought when I finished grad school, 0:01:02.560 --> 0:01:04.200 I'm gonna write a book every couple of years. And 0:01:04.240 --> 0:01:06.520 then I taught at a small college and all of 0:01:06.560 --> 0:01:08.600 a sudden, life has less time than I thought. And 0:01:09.360 --> 0:01:13.200 here we are years later and still the same book. Dude. 0:01:13.240 --> 0:01:15.440 This book is fascinating though. Man, it's called Hunting and 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:18.480 Fishing in the New South. Yeah, hunting and fishing in 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:21.120 the New South, Black labor and white leisure after the 0:01:21.160 --> 0:01:23.800 Civil War. And I'll tell you what I uh, we'll 0:01:23.840 --> 0:01:25.440 get into it in greater detail, but just to kind 0:01:25.440 --> 0:01:27.000 of tease up before we hit a couple of things 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:31.160 we got to hit. Um. The book covers many things, 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:33.840 but one of the things I found most fascinating, and 0:01:33.840 --> 0:01:35.240 it's kind of betrays the fact. And I hate to 0:01:35.240 --> 0:01:39.559 admit this to you, like I didn't finish THEMN book. 0:01:40.520 --> 0:01:42.559 I really meant to, and I was getting along good, 0:01:42.600 --> 0:01:44.920 and I was I was folding pages and making notes, 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:48.120 but then only wanted to check out the book. So 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:53.600 it's his vault. But I skimmed around. Maybe collectively we 0:01:53.800 --> 0:01:58.800 got probably through. I'll give us. I am very like. Well, 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:00.760 I'll tell you if you screw. If you went and 0:02:00.840 --> 0:02:05.160 explored my text message exchanges, you would find where I 0:02:05.240 --> 0:02:08.400 sent a picture of that book cover to my brother Matt. 0:02:09.400 --> 0:02:12.120 I sent a picture of that book cover to a 0:02:12.160 --> 0:02:17.000 biologist named Robert Abernathy. I sent it to my brother Danny. 0:02:18.160 --> 0:02:20.560 I don't do that for every book. I appreciate that. 0:02:20.600 --> 0:02:23.440 I'm right now, I'm just talked into a history of 0:02:23.440 --> 0:02:27.840 the monk in the Cia, in the Secret Wars and Laos. 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:30.720 I didn't send that book cover to anybody. A might 0:02:30.960 --> 0:02:35.280 later I like this damn book, but it covers, among 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:37.920 many of other things, the hunting practices of slaves. It's like, 0:02:39.520 --> 0:02:41.120 of course, and you think about like, of course they 0:02:41.160 --> 0:02:44.720 were engaged in the activity in some areas, I'm sure, 0:02:44.800 --> 0:02:49.000 but like it never really gave it any thought what 0:02:49.200 --> 0:02:53.360 that that aspect of that experience. That's sort of how 0:02:53.400 --> 0:02:55.200 it was, you know, when I first started the project, 0:02:55.240 --> 0:02:58.880 because it was it was such a novel topic for 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:01.560 some people, you know, their response was, really you want 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:03.919 to study that? And the other people said, well that's 0:03:03.919 --> 0:03:06.600 so mundane. Of course they hunted and fished for food. 0:03:06.720 --> 0:03:09.120 What's what's the larger significance of that? And I thought, well, 0:03:09.160 --> 0:03:10.720 that's that's what I'm gonna find out. I guess I 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:14.079 combined both those people. I'm a combination of that makes sense, 0:03:14.120 --> 0:03:16.560 of course they did. And then like, but i'd have 0:03:16.639 --> 0:03:18.560 to know more which is the path you went down? 0:03:18.560 --> 0:03:20.400 And we'll get to but it's not exactly something that 0:03:20.440 --> 0:03:27.400 they covered off on in your you know, six studies 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:32.800 class and then there's the hunting fishing for sure. Well 0:03:32.919 --> 0:03:35.720 you said, we'll get into it later, but like it 0:03:35.800 --> 0:03:38.080 seems like it made such a big impact. I think 0:03:38.400 --> 0:03:40.920 reading reading the book that it maybe should have been covered. 0:03:41.920 --> 0:03:44.440 Maybe maybe one of the things that's kind of impressed 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:46.880 me over the past twelve years, since the twelve years wow, 0:03:46.880 --> 0:03:49.560 since the book came out, is that it was there 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:53.120 really wasn't much on the topic at the time, and 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:54.920 since then quite a bit more has come out. And 0:03:54.960 --> 0:03:59.040 then other topics that are sort of conceptually similar, sort 0:03:59.080 --> 0:04:01.480 of odd opics that people would think of as a 0:04:01.480 --> 0:04:04.320 pretty mundane thing that's actually more revealing, whether it's the 0:04:04.360 --> 0:04:08.440 history of African American beaches or the history of black barbers. 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:11.040 You know, I think there's all these interesting, uh you know, 0:04:11.120 --> 0:04:14.640 studies of environmental use and occupations that haven't really been 0:04:14.640 --> 0:04:16.680 given much attention before, and it's it's kind of cool. 0:04:17.839 --> 0:04:19.920 And when we talk about that, we'll get into kind 0:04:19.960 --> 0:04:25.200 of a twist, an interesting twist or an interesting wrinkle, 0:04:26.040 --> 0:04:33.200 and um, the much celebrated advent of the American conservation movement. 0:04:33.279 --> 0:04:38.320 And you'll see, first we got stuff talking about Yanni 0:04:38.920 --> 0:04:42.839 ran his full his first full marathon, yeah, like like 0:04:42.920 --> 0:04:46.640 in the organized sense or you just counted off. Uh 0:04:47.520 --> 0:04:49.560 it's uh, it's a little bit of a funny story, 0:04:49.720 --> 0:04:53.239 I think because I wasn't. I got into a race 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:55.760 here in Bozeman called the bridger Ridge Run, which is 0:04:55.800 --> 0:04:57.839 in August, and it's twenty miles but it's across the 0:04:57.880 --> 0:05:03.720 mountains and uh it's uh like the course record is 0:05:03.760 --> 0:05:07.240 somewhere around three hours, which you know people run like 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:11.240 two hour marathons these days, I believe. Um, So anyways, 0:05:11.279 --> 0:05:13.880 it's a it's an arduous course wrapped the whole day 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:16.719 of marathon up in two hours. Yeah, when you're running 0:05:16.760 --> 0:05:19.640 like something crazy like four minute miles for twenty six 0:05:19.720 --> 0:05:22.360 miles in a row. Because when I think of running 0:05:22.400 --> 0:05:28.240 a marathon, I think just boring. I did it and 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:33.360 twice that time took me four hours of running. But 0:05:33.520 --> 0:05:38.880 uh no, So I U meta fella through some works 0:05:38.960 --> 0:05:42.520 kind of unrelated work but not work stuff. Um. I 0:05:42.560 --> 0:05:44.359 won't get into the details. But I meet a fella 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:46.480 and we kind of became friendly and we're like, yeah, 0:05:46.520 --> 0:05:49.280 we should hang out of the initials are his occupation 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:58.120 or B I correct, yes, yeah, um and Barbara not Barbara. 0:05:58.440 --> 0:06:01.360 We have similarly aged kids. Both happened to be girls, 0:06:02.000 --> 0:06:03.800 and we're like, man, we could probably hang out. And 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:07.040 not a baker. No, not not a baker. He used 0:06:07.040 --> 0:06:09.960 to live in uh Colorado or I used to live 0:06:10.040 --> 0:06:14.320 so you know, we had a lot of connection. Anyways, Uh, 0:06:14.400 --> 0:06:17.400 a week later after meeting him, I'm running my dog 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:19.680 on the little like three mile loop that run all 0:06:19.720 --> 0:06:22.560 the time near our house, and he pulls by me 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:24.800 and then turns around and comes back, and his wife 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:27.160 rolls down the window and he's like, hey, what's up. 0:06:27.560 --> 0:06:30.160 My buddy, Nick was just talking about you, and then 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:32.560 we see you running here and uh, you know, we 0:06:32.560 --> 0:06:35.200 didn't know you were a runner and got home at 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:40.040 home back up, I just got confused. You met the guy, yeah, 0:06:40.200 --> 0:06:41.960 and you had a lot of shared so you had 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:44.960 some shared experiences. And then you're running with your dog 0:06:45.680 --> 0:06:48.279 later and who runs into you. He his wife and 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:50.760 his two kids. So the same guy runs in Yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:06:51.160 --> 0:06:53.240 they're just driving. They just happened to be driving over 0:06:53.279 --> 0:06:57.799 to Paradise Valley, cutting through Trail Creek. I'm with you now, 0:06:58.279 --> 0:07:00.919 and uh so they turned around and they come just 0:07:00.960 --> 0:07:03.520 to chat for a little bit and they're like She's like, 0:07:03.560 --> 0:07:07.200 you know, we're celebrating Nick's forty this weekend, and part 0:07:07.200 --> 0:07:10.640 of the celebration is, uh, Leftover Salmon happened to be 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:12.800 playing on who all here knows that band, but they 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:15.240 happen to be playing You never heard of Leftover Salmon, 0:07:16.880 --> 0:07:19.800 like a jam band from the nineties, but they're still 0:07:19.960 --> 0:07:24.040 playing hard in the widespread panic. Exactly. It's a great name, 0:07:24.560 --> 0:07:27.000 there were Salmon is a perfect jam band name for sure. 0:07:28.200 --> 0:07:33.640 It's got the blues. That's okay, thank you. I never 0:07:33.680 --> 0:07:37.240 got into any of that music that I stopped at 0:07:37.280 --> 0:07:41.080 the dead um. Anyways, they're like part of the celebration 0:07:41.120 --> 0:07:44.160 this weekend is Nick wanted to run a marathon for 0:07:44.200 --> 0:07:47.680 his birthday. So tomorrow morning they're gonna run right here 0:07:47.960 --> 0:07:51.160 from Trail Creek down to the Loch Leven camp site 0:07:51.400 --> 0:07:55.000 on the Yellowstone Marathon. You want to go, we could 0:07:55.080 --> 0:07:57.160 use you. We need some people to pace. And if 0:07:57.200 --> 0:07:59.240 it was just an open invitation to be like, hey, 0:07:59.360 --> 0:08:01.280 you can run the marathon, or you could run like 0:08:01.320 --> 0:08:03.920 ten miles of it, just like calm and have fun. 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:07.240 We've got eight stations and T shirts and kids with 0:08:07.360 --> 0:08:09.480 bells and and there's gonna be like ten. People are 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:12.000 so involved. I'm like, yeah, it sounds great. Let me 0:08:12.000 --> 0:08:13.520 see if I can get some babysitters because I was 0:08:13.600 --> 0:08:16.400 running solo. So how to drop the kids off the 0:08:16.440 --> 0:08:19.320 next morning at like six o'clock in the morning at 0:08:19.360 --> 0:08:22.840 my brother in law's house. And then I actually started. 0:08:22.960 --> 0:08:24.480 Didn't they want to spending the night there the night 0:08:24.520 --> 0:08:26.960 before though? That was my understanding. We were hoping to 0:08:27.080 --> 0:08:29.840 do that, but it didn't quite come. I thought I 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:34.640 called him gonna lie ran that was that was a 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:39.240 very good plan. Trust, but verify that's what's called. So 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:43.320 white white kids with bells. This this this makes surprise you. 0:08:43.360 --> 0:08:47.160 I am not a runner, yeah, exactly, just a cheer 0:08:47.720 --> 0:08:50.800 and ring bells and yell and whatever. And so I 0:08:50.800 --> 0:08:53.520 actually started probably half and I caught them half an 0:08:53.520 --> 0:08:56.679 hour into their run, um because I just they were 0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:00.160 starting at I forget what it was seven, and I 0:09:00.160 --> 0:09:03.800 didn't get there untill seven thirty. Sometimes they want to 0:09:03.800 --> 0:09:06.280 get going earlier. Yeah, And so I basically just drove 0:09:06.360 --> 0:09:08.120 until I caught up to him and then found the 0:09:08.160 --> 0:09:11.200 next pull off pulled off. Uh. They gave me a 0:09:12.160 --> 0:09:15.680 Nick Benson uh birthday marathon t shirt. Threw it on 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:19.120 and we started running. And at that point I didn't like, 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:20.920 I was like, I'm just gonna do what I can. Like, 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.400 I know that I'm capable of twenty I don't know 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:25.400 if I'm feeling like I'm gonna pull off twenty six. 0:09:25.520 --> 0:09:29.360 But at the end, like I said, I started roughly 0:09:29.960 --> 0:09:32.800 thirty minutes, which is roughly probably at our pace, three 0:09:32.840 --> 0:09:35.719 miles behind. So at the end of it, I ran 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:41.720 another three and a half miles by myself, just kept going. Yeah, 0:09:42.200 --> 0:09:44.439 those are the hardest three miles because when you're running 0:09:44.440 --> 0:09:49.640 in a group, you're chatting, and everybody's you know, well 0:09:49.960 --> 0:09:53.199 everybody else is now in lounge shares with their shrunning 0:09:53.200 --> 0:09:57.000 shoes off, you know, dumping water on them. And I'm like, okay, 0:09:57.120 --> 0:09:59.640 just fill my fill my squeeze bottles back up and 0:10:00.000 --> 0:10:02.000 give me some more those salt pills. I'll be back 0:10:02.000 --> 0:10:05.000 in an hour. And so yeah, well, how did you 0:10:05.040 --> 0:10:08.760 know who went? Who went and measured it off for you? 0:10:09.880 --> 0:10:13.360 So another vehicle, Uh, we knew that the dirt road 0:10:13.400 --> 0:10:18.800 that we had uh run in on from the pavement 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:21.760 to the camp site was exactly a mile, so I 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:24.480 knew I had roughly three miles to go. So I 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:27.040 ran out the dirt and then I just timed myself. 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:29.559 I ran seven minutes down the pavement, turned around, ran 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:32.840 seven minutes back and then back. So I ran somewhere 0:10:32.840 --> 0:10:35.320 between probably twenty six and twenty seven miles. I can't 0:10:35.320 --> 0:10:41.599 tell you exactly. Good job. Yeah, you just in you 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:47.720 need to have a race off between you and Durkin. Yeah, yeah, 0:10:47.760 --> 0:10:50.920 he is, he is, but I don't. I don't. Yeah, 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:54.080 you could beat him in a race. Well, yeah, just 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:57.679 because of just a pure age thing. We've talked about it. 0:10:57.760 --> 0:11:01.920 He's not he's not seeds. He's just conceded ahead of 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:05.079 and I've run with him and I'd feel like, do 0:11:05.120 --> 0:11:10.640 you still want to raise the um? No? So yeah, 0:11:10.679 --> 0:11:12.679 it was. It was a lot of fun. Made some 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:16.680 new friends, some friends that you actually know. Yeah, Jeremy 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:20.760 and our kids, our kids go to school with their kids. Yeah, 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:28.600 you know. Interesting his um his truck. He was in 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:32.760 his house in a big windstorm came in a giant 0:11:33.280 --> 0:11:38.880 spruce flattened his truck. I did not hear that. You 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:40.880 could have been sitting in there texting or something. Man 0:11:41.600 --> 0:11:45.120 would have been the India for sure. He told me 0:11:45.160 --> 0:11:47.520 a great story about how is. I think only like, 0:11:48.120 --> 0:11:51.320 how old is that boy? His tan the same age 0:11:51.360 --> 0:11:56.960 as my kid bugled in like multiple bulls form last 0:11:57.040 --> 0:12:00.559 year into archery range. Really yeah one to that story. 0:12:00.640 --> 0:12:04.680 I'm like, kid, I gotta start training my kids. I'm 0:12:04.760 --> 0:12:08.880 way behind. That's weird because his kid and my kid, 0:12:09.640 --> 0:12:15.360 uh recently got an English sparrow and uh she his 0:12:15.640 --> 0:12:18.240 the guy with that you ran, well, no, she ran 0:12:18.280 --> 0:12:20.600 with you too. Yeah. She cooked up the little breast 0:12:20.600 --> 0:12:23.720 filets for him and some butter. But you think that 0:12:23.800 --> 0:12:25.360 would have inspired him to tell me that story. But 0:12:25.400 --> 0:12:28.480 he never told me that story. The kid didn't either way, 0:12:29.480 --> 0:12:35.560 humble young man. Hit everybody with your crraction, okay, um, 0:12:35.640 --> 0:12:38.120 and then rape phils haircut while you're at him okay, 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.800 Well yeah, I mean the last time I'll do haircut 0:12:41.880 --> 0:12:45.840 first last time. Last time. Phils kind of had like 0:12:45.880 --> 0:12:51.920 a sideways. Yeah, he looked like he looked not quite. 0:12:52.000 --> 0:12:54.840 I wouldn't go that far, but yeah it looks good, 0:12:55.280 --> 0:12:58.679 looks good and time for summer and short sides. Yeah, 0:12:58.920 --> 0:13:05.320 solid eight point five, I'd say eight point eight. You go, 0:13:05.720 --> 0:13:09.080 you running like a number three on the sides there, Phil, Well, here, 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:11.840 I've got stick straight here and I hate almost every 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:15.360 haircut I get. Uh, so this is like this one. Yeah, 0:13:15.400 --> 0:13:19.480 I don't mean the clip, the clippers. I used to 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:21.440 just bring take a number two to my whole head 0:13:21.559 --> 0:13:24.480 when I was growing up. Um, but now I Yeah, 0:13:24.520 --> 0:13:26.320 I asked her to go short, shorter on the sides, 0:13:26.360 --> 0:13:29.280 longer on top. I like, it looks great, Your wife 0:13:29.280 --> 0:13:32.080 like it. Yeah, that's all that matters, exactly, Thanks Steve. 0:13:32.360 --> 0:13:34.480 I'm so jealous why we ask Cram what she thinks 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.920 about it. I've had hair in eight years. I'm so 0:13:38.040 --> 0:13:42.959 jealous of these young guys running around debating. Yeah, you 0:13:43.040 --> 0:13:44.599 still got some though. I can see it growing in 0:13:44.640 --> 0:13:46.839 there just a little bit. But you could grow the 0:13:46.920 --> 0:13:49.240 you could grow the rim out long, I could grow 0:13:49.280 --> 0:13:51.880 the scullet, I suppose if if I wanted to go that. 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:55.160 I think that when I get there, I'm probably gonna 0:13:55.240 --> 0:14:00.560 do that. Alright, long, that's that long strip. Oh yeah, 0:14:00.679 --> 0:14:02.800 just nothing up front. And you know what, I've heard 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:06.640 that called the Kentucky waterfall. I don't know if that's 0:14:06.720 --> 0:14:12.640 the official PC term, but I like where the correction 0:14:12.720 --> 0:14:16.480 came from. Yeah, that's that's really the point of me 0:14:16.600 --> 0:14:22.520 telling this. So in the spirit of being precise and accurate. Um. 0:14:22.560 --> 0:14:26.080 In our previous episode, when we were talking about dear 0:14:26.520 --> 0:14:31.440 vehicle collisions, I had mentioned a bunch of Wisconsin counties 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:36.840 ranking up top in terms of the number of collisions, 0:14:37.000 --> 0:14:43.320 and one of them I just completely butchered the pronunciation 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:49.560 of it's spelled w a u k e s h A, 0:14:50.560 --> 0:14:54.520 and I pronounced it wa keisha. And I did say 0:14:54.560 --> 0:14:58.760 I was probably not saying that correctly. UM. And later 0:14:59.040 --> 0:15:03.760 I I'm not a huge Instagram user, but on it 0:15:03.800 --> 0:15:06.440 for for work and such, and so I I saw 0:15:06.480 --> 0:15:10.120 that I had had a d M. D M Yeah, 0:15:10.320 --> 0:15:15.080 damn me m hmmm. It was important to that person. Yeah, 0:15:15.320 --> 0:15:17.080 but I would think the only reason I'm surprised by 0:15:17.120 --> 0:15:18.880 that is it seems a good way to have your 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:24.280 your correction go unnoticed, all right, something like because you're 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:28.000 relying on someone like digging through d M. Yeah, this 0:15:28.120 --> 0:15:30.880 is a real hail Mary. I mean, you know, when 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:35.920 I'm on there, you'll see little notifications. So I paid attention. 0:15:36.080 --> 0:15:39.440 I paid attention. UM. But I think the moral of 0:15:39.440 --> 0:15:41.960 the story here is, if you really want your correction 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:46.920 to be noted, you should email the meat eater the 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:49.680 meteator at the meat eator dot com and put in 0:15:49.760 --> 0:15:53.280 big capital letters correction. Yeah, actually sorry, it's a meat 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.760 eater at the Steve people d m me all the 0:15:56.800 --> 0:15:58.800 time trying to get me to feed ideas to you. 0:15:58.880 --> 0:16:00.840 They're like, Steve will never see read if if I 0:16:00.880 --> 0:16:10.600 write to him. But Phil exactly, well, I mean I don't. 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:15.280 I don't get too many uh d M so I 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:19.640 will pay attention to those that come through. Um. So, 0:16:20.520 --> 0:16:25.920 the correct pronunciation was pointed out to me in a 0:16:26.080 --> 0:16:30.040 lovely note from from a listener who made himself known. 0:16:30.160 --> 0:16:36.160 So it's NFL linebacker for the Jacksonville Jaguars, Joe Shobert. 0:16:37.240 --> 0:16:43.520 So thanks Joe. Um. He very clearly spelled out how 0:16:43.560 --> 0:16:48.040 it should be pronounced walk a shaw. He was like, 0:16:48.480 --> 0:16:51.600 I grew up, I grew up there, and you pronounce 0:16:51.720 --> 0:16:58.120 it w a l K dash a H dash dash 0:16:58.400 --> 0:17:00.800 s h a w So I just I was like, wow, 0:17:01.320 --> 0:17:04.359 that's so clear, and I butchered it. So man, we 0:17:04.400 --> 0:17:06.640 should uh we should have Maybe you should reach out 0:17:06.640 --> 0:17:08.800 to him because we were wanting to get that football 0:17:08.840 --> 0:17:11.680 player that likes to eat squirrels. Maybe he likes eat squirrels, 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:13.680 but we should have him one and we could do 0:17:13.720 --> 0:17:18.080 a thing where we test uh if if he know, 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:23.520 like well, we could test my NFL knowledge against his 0:17:23.600 --> 0:17:26.320 outdoor knowledge. Oh boy, I think we've got a lot 0:17:26.359 --> 0:17:31.960 of NFL. We could like rate mine on a sliding 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.720 scale of one. Intend, like rate my NFL knowledge on 0:17:34.880 --> 0:17:37.480 sliding scale one intended and rate his outdoor knowledge on 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:39.840 sliding scale. Would be so you get the highest score. 0:17:41.000 --> 0:17:44.480 Uh walk a shot sounds like something that we should 0:17:44.520 --> 0:17:49.359 have Clay nucom say, let Clay pronounce it. Yeah, he 0:17:49.400 --> 0:17:52.440 would do a good job at him. Uh. He likes 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:54.640 those kind of arguments too. A couple of I don't 0:17:54.640 --> 0:17:59.800 know these are crack Yeah, one kind of correction um 0:17:59.800 --> 0:18:03.040 and one note. So we we covered last week. We 0:18:03.040 --> 0:18:06.680 we got to talk for quite a while about fish 0:18:06.680 --> 0:18:09.040 poaching operation at my home state of Michigan, where these 0:18:09.040 --> 0:18:11.040 boys got caught with like way too many fish in 0:18:11.040 --> 0:18:14.399 the freezer. Okay, point there's a couple different points here. 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.000 One is that so these ones that we're talking about, 0:18:19.000 --> 0:18:22.440 how in some states, let's say you have a daily 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:26.800 bag limit of give me give me something five five. 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:32.000 But what so people in the South to try to 0:18:32.119 --> 0:18:35.440 you don't have wallet try it's a fish. Um. So 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:42.480 do you have a daily possession limit of five walleye. No, 0:18:42.720 --> 0:18:45.480 you have a daily bag limit called daily bag limit 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:47.399 of five wallet. And you might notice in your fishing 0:18:47.440 --> 0:18:52.480 regulations that it says possession limit of two daily bag 0:18:52.600 --> 0:18:56.080 limits that meaning in your possession you cannot have more 0:18:56.119 --> 0:18:58.480 than two daily. You can't have any more than ten walleye. 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:02.840 But what varies by state to state, what varies from 0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:06.679 state to state is whether or not what varies from 0:19:06.720 --> 0:19:10.200 state to state is whether or not it being cleaned 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:15.920 and in your freezer counts like in Alaska, it once 0:19:15.920 --> 0:19:18.439 it's processed and at its final place. So it's like 0:19:18.560 --> 0:19:21.240 it gets to its sort of final resting place and 0:19:21.320 --> 0:19:24.560 it's processed, it is no longer part of your daily 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:27.800 bag limit or the possession limit. I'm sorry, just keeps 0:19:27.800 --> 0:19:32.280 screening that up. It's not part of your possession limit. Um. 0:19:32.320 --> 0:19:35.040 If you're driving home from a fishing trip and you 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:38.320 have UH and you're in a you're in this five 0:19:38.359 --> 0:19:41.280 walleye a day place, you're driving home from a fishing 0:19:41.320 --> 0:19:43.760 trip and you've got eleven walleye and you're cooler your 0:19:43.840 --> 0:19:47.240 one walleye over um, But you could get home and 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:49.840 put those eleven Walleye and your freezer, and you may 0:19:49.920 --> 0:19:51.359 or may not be clear, depending on what's going on 0:19:51.359 --> 0:19:54.520 in your state. I even had I took this question 0:19:54.560 --> 0:19:58.240 one time to UH trooper in Alaska. They don't have 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:00.280 they don't come game wards of the game law are 0:20:00.960 --> 0:20:03.720 done by state troopers, UM, who you know, kind of 0:20:03.760 --> 0:20:07.760 have full breadth of enforcement across all laws. But a 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:09.720 trooper is telling me. I was like, what if I 0:20:09.760 --> 0:20:13.400 have a fish shack and I can process and free 0:20:13.400 --> 0:20:15.080 stuff at my fish shack, but then I want to 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:17.320 bring it from my fish shack to home. And he said, 0:20:17.960 --> 0:20:20.440 and he told me that the way they look at 0:20:20.440 --> 0:20:23.359 it would be that if I've processed it and got 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:25.919 it to you know, it's sort of like final form, 0:20:26.280 --> 0:20:28.240 and I put it in my freezer at my fish shack, 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.960 I'm that it's not then part of my possession limit, 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:34.520 even though I need to do it, even though I 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:37.840 need to transport it again to another home. He says, 0:20:37.880 --> 0:20:44.920 you're cool, Uh, Texas, it turns out same thing. You're 0:20:44.920 --> 0:20:48.600 fine once it's in your freezer. Michigan, that's not the case, 0:20:49.560 --> 0:20:53.080 and uh, and apologies. I have to I have to apologize. 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:57.280 A Michigan conservation officer rhote her to say he was 0:20:57.320 --> 0:21:00.879 pretty disappointed in me for some of my comments about 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:07.480 this situation. Uh and and here's where he first off, 0:21:07.480 --> 0:21:12.399 he goes on to say that that this freezer search, 0:21:14.080 --> 0:21:16.680 I should probably explain what what it was, right, Yeah, 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:20.240 some guys in here on County, Michigan got caught like 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:22.520 way to me, fishing the freezer. And they had eighty 0:21:22.680 --> 0:21:27.320 five bags eighty five bags like ziply bags of perch 0:21:27.359 --> 0:21:29.920 and wall i with hundreds and you know, way over 0:21:30.000 --> 0:21:33.080 the possession limit, laid out like a drug bust. One 0:21:33.080 --> 0:21:35.639 of the things I said, that is warranted here, As 0:21:35.840 --> 0:21:38.320 I said, I bet you there was more going on, 0:21:38.480 --> 0:21:41.760 like like it's not like people just show up randomly 0:21:41.760 --> 0:21:44.720 doing freezer checks, like I was saying, there's probably something 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:49.160 that led to this. And and this guy doesn't want 0:21:49.160 --> 0:21:52.520 to be identified, but this guy said that they had 0:21:52.560 --> 0:21:56.399 been a hundred and twenty fish over their daily limit, 0:21:57.240 --> 0:21:59.119 which led them to wanting to have a look in 0:21:59.160 --> 0:22:02.920 the freezer. So there's that. Do we know what kind 0:22:02.920 --> 0:22:06.920 of fish and wall and panfish which I gathered to 0:22:06.960 --> 0:22:14.000 me like sies, bluegills, whatnot. So the guy was the 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:19.719 guy's disappointed to me for not condemning having over your 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:22.119 bag limit, over your possession limit, and I should I 0:22:22.119 --> 0:22:24.320 should be clear like that's the case. What I got 0:22:24.440 --> 0:22:26.720 hung up on. What I got hung up on what 0:22:26.800 --> 0:22:30.000 I expressed and talked about, was I talked about how 0:22:30.119 --> 0:22:37.199 common um that practice was and how unaware when I 0:22:37.240 --> 0:22:41.680 was growing up in that state, how unaware the people 0:22:41.720 --> 0:22:46.119 I grew up with were about that rule. Just it 0:22:46.240 --> 0:22:49.960 just wasn't known. I don't think maybe they didn't go 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:53.080 out of their way to consider it, but no one. 0:22:53.760 --> 0:22:56.040 I was never part of a conversation as a kid 0:22:56.040 --> 0:22:59.040 in Michigan about I can't fish because I already have 0:22:59.200 --> 0:23:05.080 ten wall I frozen. It just wasn't a thing. And 0:23:05.119 --> 0:23:07.639 so I expressed that, Man, when I see that, I 0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:11.560 just see like everybody I grew up with freezer. Um. 0:23:11.600 --> 0:23:13.119 I didn't mean that to say that I think that 0:23:13.200 --> 0:23:17.120 it's good. I just meant to say that it's uh, 0:23:17.320 --> 0:23:20.840 you know, did I I saw something in that, and 0:23:20.880 --> 0:23:23.960 he was saying that I didn't clearly articulate that it's 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:27.000 simply just not acceptable and that the regulations are there 0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:33.119 for a reason. Correct. I apologize, that's true, don't break 0:23:33.160 --> 0:23:37.480 that law. It's there for a reason, um and not. 0:23:37.640 --> 0:23:39.800 But and when I looked at that, I just couldn't 0:23:39.800 --> 0:23:43.720 help but think of my dad's friends and and they're 0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:46.840 freezer and they're just complete how shocked they would have 0:23:46.920 --> 0:23:49.840 probably have been to realize that there was that was 0:23:49.880 --> 0:23:54.400 a thing, that's all. Was that good enough? I also 0:23:54.400 --> 0:23:56.600 think the way you said and not but it really 0:23:56.640 --> 0:24:05.120 reveals that you've been married for a while. That was yeah. Yeah, yeah, 0:24:05.480 --> 0:24:07.399 Like I feel that you got like a little too 0:24:07.440 --> 0:24:11.520 mad about that situation with the kids. And I'll still 0:24:11.560 --> 0:24:17.160 go to dinner all right there, Yeah, there you go. Um, 0:24:17.200 --> 0:24:19.040 what do you think about that? Just sitting in on 0:24:19.080 --> 0:24:21.639 that apology? I think it was well done. Yeah, I 0:24:21.680 --> 0:24:25.120 think it was well done. Did feel it felt very diplomatic. Yeah. 0:24:25.160 --> 0:24:26.440 What I don't want to do is I don't want 0:24:26.440 --> 0:24:30.920 to like grovel, but I want to be like, you're right, dude, 0:24:30.920 --> 0:24:34.520 you're right. Yeah. It was straight up. Okay, it's coming 0:24:34.560 --> 0:24:41.800 from the academic. It's true. Don't like you know what 0:24:41.840 --> 0:24:47.360 it is, Phil, It's that I took for granted, took 0:24:47.440 --> 0:24:52.560 for granted that people would understand, don't do that, like, 0:24:52.640 --> 0:24:58.040 don't do that right, don't go like follow your state laws, 0:24:58.119 --> 0:25:02.640 like just follow the state laws. Yeah, um, I mean 0:25:02.680 --> 0:25:07.199 you've also never said otherwise, you don't practice otherwise, so 0:25:07.520 --> 0:25:10.680 I know, but but but but I could see that. Yeah, 0:25:10.680 --> 0:25:13.760 I wasn't he his thing that I was like making 0:25:13.880 --> 0:25:16.200 light of it, And I was just more like, wow, 0:25:16.520 --> 0:25:18.040 I was telling you before the show. I picked up 0:25:18.040 --> 0:25:19.959 on the same vibes he was. He was picking up 0:25:20.160 --> 0:25:23.120 just like it's sort of even though this you just said, 0:25:23.160 --> 0:25:24.560 this isn't what you were saying. It was sort of 0:25:24.600 --> 0:25:27.399 like we did that, like not we but you know, 0:25:27.400 --> 0:25:30.120 I knew people did did this all the time growing up. Yeah, 0:25:30.200 --> 0:25:33.520 it's it's whatever. That's sort of the vibe I got. Really, Yeah, 0:25:33.520 --> 0:25:36.119 why don't you flag it? At the time, Phil do 0:25:36.160 --> 0:25:39.199 your show? Man, you couldn't see I couldn't see what 0:25:39.240 --> 0:25:42.719 was going on in your That's right. My eyes are 0:25:42.760 --> 0:25:47.240 open now though. Oh that was taking you to no idea? 0:25:47.280 --> 0:25:51.440 What was going on? Man? What else about possession limits? 0:25:51.480 --> 0:25:55.600 Were were were gonna talk about? Oh? I know, I was 0:25:55.640 --> 0:26:03.920 gonna talk about, um, just observation. So uh, last night 0:26:03.920 --> 0:26:09.520 we fished. We fished for some brook trout and that 0:26:09.600 --> 0:26:12.240 was the native trout you know growing up in Michigan, 0:26:12.359 --> 0:26:14.800 speaking of bring full circle to Michigan does a native 0:26:14.840 --> 0:26:19.359 trout and here in many parts of the West, Like 0:26:19.760 --> 0:26:21.600 when was all that going on when people are turning 0:26:21.640 --> 0:26:24.440 brook trout loose? I think around the turn of the century, 0:26:25.240 --> 0:26:27.240 you know, it was back and like the mindset was like, hey, 0:26:27.240 --> 0:26:29.320 more fish than merrier, you know, if they'll live there 0:26:29.320 --> 0:26:33.760 and put them there, and uh they put They introduced 0:26:33.800 --> 0:26:36.320 brook trout in a lot of these rivers out here, 0:26:37.480 --> 0:26:40.359 the same thing they introduced rainbow trout and brown trout. 0:26:40.680 --> 0:26:44.199 But brook trout are kind of like more accustomed to 0:26:45.920 --> 0:26:50.879 these small, fast flowing, kind of nutrient poor, high elevation 0:26:51.040 --> 0:26:54.919 rivers and the yeah, they compete more aggressively with the 0:26:55.040 --> 0:26:58.720 native trout here, which is the cutthroat trout um an 0:26:58.760 --> 0:27:02.159 eastern cutthroat east slope cutthroat trout, Like east of the 0:27:02.200 --> 0:27:06.879 Content divide, cut throat trout are hurting bad. Um. So 0:27:06.920 --> 0:27:09.879 there's a lot of rivers where you can't keep a 0:27:09.920 --> 0:27:12.400 lot of these streams around here in rivers in this district, 0:27:12.440 --> 0:27:16.879 like you can't keep cutthroat out of the river. But 0:27:18.280 --> 0:27:21.960 brook trout, which were introduced on purpose, but now they're frowned. 0:27:22.000 --> 0:27:25.840 Their presence is frowned upon. You're allowed twenty a day. 0:27:27.440 --> 0:27:29.440 So you could imagine we talk about the importance of 0:27:29.440 --> 0:27:32.480 looking at your legs, right, you can imagine a situation 0:27:32.920 --> 0:27:37.479 where someone would be h up in a stream fishing around, 0:27:38.240 --> 0:27:41.520 and you need to understand that that one, you can 0:27:41.600 --> 0:27:46.120 have twenty of that one with a few spots difference 0:27:46.440 --> 0:27:51.800 that one none at all. So luckily they're pretty easy 0:27:51.840 --> 0:27:55.080 to tell a part, that's all. Yeah, Byron was asking 0:27:55.119 --> 0:27:58.639 about that, or someone was asking about that they're worried about, 0:27:58.640 --> 0:28:01.680 and I'm like, yeah, you know, you know, just give 0:28:01.720 --> 0:28:04.800 it a good look. Bring your trout chart. You know 0:28:05.160 --> 0:28:11.480 what what sort of tackle were you catching him with? Uh? 0:28:11.800 --> 0:28:14.359 Me personally? Well, yeah, you and the crew that you 0:28:14.400 --> 0:28:16.840 were with, you take kids, you know, there's just a 0:28:16.840 --> 0:28:19.560 couple of work people. Because we had like a meeting 0:28:19.600 --> 0:28:25.000 and then went into that. Um we had fly poles. 0:28:26.080 --> 0:28:27.399 My wife want to try to catch one on a 0:28:27.400 --> 0:28:31.399 fly rod, which she gave up on that, uh, and 0:28:31.440 --> 0:28:33.919 then I showed her how to huk a worm out 0:28:33.920 --> 0:28:38.160 there and let it sit and started railing on him. 0:28:38.360 --> 0:28:43.840 Still water, no beaver ponds still yeah, well that and 0:28:44.040 --> 0:28:47.600 moving water. But there's a big hole, big deep area 0:28:47.720 --> 0:28:51.880 behind a beaver up above a beaver dam, and they 0:28:51.920 --> 0:28:55.080 were in there. It was hot, probably down trying to 0:28:55.080 --> 0:28:59.240 cool off down there A lot them down in there. Um, 0:28:59.400 --> 0:29:04.240 here's an inner us. The thing we're talking about avian 0:29:04.600 --> 0:29:09.160 raptors killing livestock. Someone must have brought in about this. 0:29:09.440 --> 0:29:13.880 The New Zealand Kia make his noise, Johnny. You know, 0:29:14.000 --> 0:29:18.800 I listened to a few on YouTube this morning, and uh, 0:29:18.960 --> 0:29:22.320 they're pretty similar to a cow elk if you take 0:29:22.320 --> 0:29:26.640 out like the first continant, I guess instead of just 0:29:26.680 --> 0:29:32.160 being like a yeah, it's like a kieah yeah yeah, 0:29:32.240 --> 0:29:34.320 and then you know, depending on what they're saying, it's 0:29:34.400 --> 0:29:39.239 louder or you know, back and forth. But yeah, we are. 0:29:39.360 --> 0:29:42.160 We experienced keys when we were in New Zealand, and 0:29:42.200 --> 0:29:44.600 we were always told we did a bunch of backpacking 0:29:45.280 --> 0:29:47.280 and there you instead of beinging Tansey to stay in 0:29:47.280 --> 0:29:48.960 these huts that are all over the place on this 0:29:49.160 --> 0:29:53.400 these trail systems. And what's those huts again? I can't remember. 0:29:55.440 --> 0:29:58.520 Do they have a specific social name. Yeah, they're cool though, Yeah, 0:29:58.560 --> 0:30:02.080 they're great in American the trash him. Yeah, I think 0:30:02.080 --> 0:30:04.240 I've told that story about how we were hiking. We 0:30:04.280 --> 0:30:06.640 had Americans ahead of us, and they were trashing the 0:30:07.360 --> 0:30:10.280 cabins ahead of us. Was it was terrible anyways, not all, 0:30:10.600 --> 0:30:11.840 but a lot of Mary's don't know what to do 0:30:11.880 --> 0:30:14.560 with the situation, like that it's too good to be true, 0:30:14.760 --> 0:30:21.120 so screw it up. Uh yeah, free cabin. What's he's 0:30:21.160 --> 0:30:24.720 done with firewood left behind? There's gotta be a catch 0:30:26.560 --> 0:30:29.640 a graffiti. But no, the tip that was given to 0:30:29.760 --> 0:30:33.880 us was like that they will they like shiny objects 0:30:33.960 --> 0:30:35.840 and they'll mess with stuff. So when we would leave 0:30:35.880 --> 0:30:38.920 to go fishing for the day, like don't leave you know, 0:30:38.960 --> 0:30:41.880 anything out on a deck or somewhere, because they if 0:30:41.920 --> 0:30:44.520 they can actually get it away, they will just to 0:30:44.560 --> 0:30:46.800 like mess with it and play with it. But they'll 0:30:46.800 --> 0:30:48.560 also just sit there and peck at it and mess 0:30:48.600 --> 0:30:50.520 with it. And you could have, you know, a hole 0:30:50.600 --> 0:30:55.400 in your backpack or you know, a fly reel completely 0:30:56.040 --> 0:30:58.000 ripped apart. And like they said that they will actually 0:30:58.000 --> 0:31:00.480 get into stuff and just make a mess and whatever. 0:31:00.520 --> 0:31:04.720 So we were very conscious of tucking away things. But 0:31:04.840 --> 0:31:09.760 beautiful bird an alpine parrot. I feel like maybe when 0:31:09.800 --> 0:31:11.200 I was there, I feel like maybe we saw him, 0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:12.959 but I didn't really it didn't really register with me 0:31:13.000 --> 0:31:14.400 that it's I mean, this thing looks like a full 0:31:14.440 --> 0:31:17.440 on parrot, red green, and here he is flying across 0:31:17.440 --> 0:31:20.000 the snow field up in the mountains, an alpine parrot. 0:31:21.400 --> 0:31:25.440 But they'll they'll kill lambs, they'll kill lambs and feet 0:31:25.480 --> 0:31:29.280 on sheet. Yeah, they like land on the back, this 0:31:29.360 --> 0:31:33.080 guy said. They they land on the back and then 0:31:33.160 --> 0:31:36.480 kind of peck through the wool and peck into the 0:31:36.520 --> 0:31:41.440 back fat, peck into the fat around the the kidneys. 0:31:42.920 --> 0:31:47.640 And uh, it's it's been a big deal. What a 0:31:47.680 --> 0:31:52.440 way to go. An alpine parrot backs through to your kidneys. 0:31:52.760 --> 0:31:55.160 Probably didn't see that coming. Like, no one's gonna believe 0:31:55.160 --> 0:31:57.680 this much. People ask you, what happened to my kidney? 0:31:57.680 --> 0:32:02.120 No one's gonna believe me. Um. They have some interesting 0:32:02.400 --> 0:32:05.480 classifications in New Zealand. They had the bird had a 0:32:05.520 --> 0:32:11.040 classification UM at one point in time as naturally uncommon, 0:32:11.880 --> 0:32:14.600 which is an interesting classification if you think about it. 0:32:15.680 --> 0:32:18.160 That's a good one, like you would have you know, 0:32:18.200 --> 0:32:21.360 it would be applied to um all right, you see 0:32:21.360 --> 0:32:24.200 it apply to wolverines, right like, just naturally uncommon. Never 0:32:24.240 --> 0:32:28.480 were many, aren't many? But then they bumped it in two, 0:32:29.040 --> 0:32:33.680 they bumped it to uh nationally endangered but like naturally 0:32:33.760 --> 0:32:38.920 uncommon as a way of describing certain species, and the 0:32:39.000 --> 0:32:43.040 sheep rejoice. Yeah, yeah, it's a good bad day for 0:32:43.120 --> 0:32:46.840 Kia's good day for sheep. I want to cover off 0:32:46.840 --> 0:32:50.920 on one last cist. We kind of officially put this 0:32:50.960 --> 0:32:54.240 to rest, but then the guy wrote in, like, off, 0:32:54.400 --> 0:32:56.120 I find that if you say like, okay, we're not 0:32:56.200 --> 0:32:57.960 talking about I just have to say that's a common 0:32:58.000 --> 0:33:00.520 story on this podcast. Okay, we're never talking about this again. 0:33:00.560 --> 0:33:03.680 Because then someone just wrote in but people, Yeah, I 0:33:03.680 --> 0:33:05.840 think a guy out here like they're not talking about anymore. 0:33:06.160 --> 0:33:08.880 And then he'll be like, oh yeah, wait to hear 0:33:08.920 --> 0:33:12.200 about my daughter's sister. And then and then they send 0:33:12.240 --> 0:33:18.400 in pictures, so we're talking about these sisters. I was 0:33:18.440 --> 0:33:21.000 talking about this create like that my brother had a 0:33:21.000 --> 0:33:23.640 girlfriendnamed the Tower of Power and she had his sister 0:33:23.760 --> 0:33:27.640 moving and head teeth in it, and it's this whole thing. 0:33:28.680 --> 0:33:31.520 So this guy, he doesn't want to say who he is. 0:33:31.560 --> 0:33:33.840 He doesn't want to humiliate his daughter, which I respect. 0:33:35.680 --> 0:33:37.280 His daughter had to go and have one of these 0:33:37.280 --> 0:33:39.960 dermoid sisters removed from her abdomen, he sent in a 0:33:40.000 --> 0:33:43.960 picture of it to back it up. Goodness, sixteen pounder, 0:33:45.160 --> 0:33:50.400 a sixteen pounder. The doctor's hands are holding it and 0:33:50.440 --> 0:33:54.360 it's as though he's holding a deer fawn, but it's 0:33:54.400 --> 0:34:01.640 not spotted or brown. That's hard to look at, sixteen pounder. Yeah, 0:34:02.280 --> 0:34:06.200 to look at now, if you'd have done an unboxing 0:34:06.320 --> 0:34:10.880 video of that sixteen pounder where they open it up 0:34:10.920 --> 0:34:13.640 and see what's in there, teeth and jaws and whatnot, 0:34:15.600 --> 0:34:18.239 that would have gotten that little filter they put on 0:34:18.360 --> 0:34:21.359 there that says sensitive content, you would be the first 0:34:21.360 --> 0:34:27.200 to like and subscribe that. I'd like unfollowed the wild 0:34:27.239 --> 0:34:29.800 Turkey Dock and just follow that side. I was gonna 0:34:29.840 --> 0:34:35.880 say no more. Nature is metal. Every day he digs 0:34:35.920 --> 0:34:38.200 a little deeper into that cest and just makes an 0:34:38.280 --> 0:34:41.600 Instagram channel out of it. I would be enraptured. Someone 0:34:41.640 --> 0:34:44.040 who wants, and I do profile to really blow up 0:34:44.120 --> 0:34:49.040 it should be. Yeah, it's really I'm sure that exists already. 0:34:49.560 --> 0:34:56.920 You have that removed and you just lost sixteen pounds. Man, 0:34:57.040 --> 0:34:58.920 I almost want to know a little more backstory, Like 0:34:59.160 --> 0:35:02.360 you think something like that must have been messing with 0:35:02.400 --> 0:35:06.640 her health. Oh, he doesn't really lay out he just 0:35:06.680 --> 0:35:08.680 kind of gets to the cold, hard facts. But there's 0:35:08.680 --> 0:35:10.440 got it. Yeah, I mean just gotta be like it 0:35:10.520 --> 0:35:13.840 can't be like, oh wow, I didn't know. I was 0:35:13.840 --> 0:35:16.279 gonna say, what's what's the timeframe on how quickly do 0:35:16.360 --> 0:35:19.080 these things grow? Before they finally made the call. Okay, 0:35:19.200 --> 0:35:20.759 let's let's get rid of this thing. You know what, 0:35:20.800 --> 0:35:22.840 We'll never know, folks, We're not gonna talk about it anymore. 0:35:22.960 --> 0:35:26.359 Great points to you know what, when we have next 0:35:26.400 --> 0:35:29.600 time we have Adam Lazar on, maybe he could do 0:35:29.640 --> 0:35:34.799 like a quick final word on dermoid SIPs man. I 0:35:34.880 --> 0:35:37.200 was not I was not expecting pictures of giant sis 0:35:37.200 --> 0:35:39.640 this morning. Have you seen this picture? I just looked 0:35:39.680 --> 0:35:44.799 at it. It's I'm pretty pros if you don't. If 0:35:44.840 --> 0:35:48.560 you showed me that picture, I would and you said, like, 0:35:48.560 --> 0:35:51.640 what are you looking at? I would say it must 0:35:51.840 --> 0:35:56.960 be a someone had a baby and they put the 0:35:56.960 --> 0:36:00.279 baby back in the placenta and took a picture of it. Yeah, 0:36:00.280 --> 0:36:04.200 it looks like a fetus. Sure I wish I could 0:36:04.200 --> 0:36:07.759 do that. Can you do that? Philm We're like like 0:36:07.840 --> 0:36:16.280 a like a wow, sure, no, that's more. I completely 0:36:16.360 --> 0:36:19.440 understand why why you don't want to talk about this again, 0:36:19.600 --> 0:36:22.120 but that it keeps coming up. Oh, because this is great. 0:36:22.320 --> 0:36:24.800 Oh no, it's it's a it's a it's titillating. Yeah, 0:36:24.800 --> 0:36:28.320 it's classic train wreck. What's this, Scott speaking of titillating, 0:36:29.120 --> 0:36:32.040 let's talking about hunting fishing in the New South, Oh transition. 0:36:41.640 --> 0:36:43.759 So hit me with hit us with what the book, 0:36:43.880 --> 0:36:46.239 Hit us with the book. I mean, it's funny that 0:36:46.320 --> 0:36:49.439 it's such an old book that we're here talking about it. Yeah, 0:36:49.560 --> 0:36:51.759 part I don't know about it until. I think. Part 0:36:51.760 --> 0:36:53.880 of that has to do with, you know, like I 0:36:53.880 --> 0:36:57.800 said at you know, at the beginning, you know, started 0:36:57.800 --> 0:36:59.800 teaching at a small private college, and all of a sudden, 0:36:59.840 --> 0:37:01.280 all the time I thought I was gonna be spending 0:37:01.320 --> 0:37:03.720 researching and writing, it's just time I spent teaching and 0:37:03.800 --> 0:37:06.520 doing administrative work and things like that. But part of 0:37:06.560 --> 0:37:08.760 it is I didn't know my ass from my elbow 0:37:08.800 --> 0:37:11.000 when I when I published the book, and I didn't 0:37:11.040 --> 0:37:13.759 really know how to you know, how to promote it. 0:37:13.880 --> 0:37:16.319 And the mistake I made at the time, I think, 0:37:16.440 --> 0:37:19.040 was to you know, ship it out to people academics 0:37:19.040 --> 0:37:21.040 who were studying these topics. To be honest with you, 0:37:21.080 --> 0:37:24.080 It never occurred to me to try to connect directly 0:37:24.160 --> 0:37:26.040 with the hunting and fishing community. It just never go on. 0:37:26.440 --> 0:37:29.040 So Field and Stream didn't do a little letter to 0:37:29.080 --> 0:37:31.680 the editor about it or yeah, and then you know 0:37:31.719 --> 0:37:34.319 the press, you know, they basically they didn't say this, 0:37:34.440 --> 0:37:37.160 but I think the implication was, Okay, you know, first 0:37:37.200 --> 0:37:40.879 time academic, you know, publishing academic. Uh, you know, we 0:37:41.000 --> 0:37:43.680 do support and promotional work and lots and lots of 0:37:43.719 --> 0:37:46.879 aggressive stuff for people that are established, so good luck 0:37:46.920 --> 0:37:48.600 with that. I didn't know what I was doing, and 0:37:48.880 --> 0:37:51.000 by then I was focused on teaching more and just 0:37:51.040 --> 0:37:53.960 sort of did some local events and didn't worry about it. 0:37:54.000 --> 0:37:56.120 But yeah, I mean, in hindsight, I wish I had 0:37:57.000 --> 0:37:59.279 been a lot more aggressive with getting it out there. 0:37:59.600 --> 0:38:03.440 Is most your work as a historian, you focused on sports, yea, 0:38:03.719 --> 0:38:07.040 you know they allowed you to do that. Well that 0:38:07.040 --> 0:38:09.640 that that's kind of that's kind of an interesting, you know, 0:38:09.760 --> 0:38:12.600 backstory of how I stumbled into the topic because when 0:38:12.640 --> 0:38:14.600 I was finishing college, I thought I was gonna gonna 0:38:14.600 --> 0:38:16.880 go to graduate school and and you know, I didn't 0:38:16.920 --> 0:38:20.200 know much about the profession of history and some of 0:38:20.200 --> 0:38:23.080 these you know, novel topics that I thought would be great. 0:38:23.120 --> 0:38:25.960 People haven't written on this, of course they had, you know, 0:38:26.000 --> 0:38:27.840 I thought, okay, it would be kind of fresh to 0:38:27.920 --> 0:38:30.200 study sports. No, it's not fresh to study sports. Plenty 0:38:30.200 --> 0:38:33.120 of people study sports, and plenty of people historians who 0:38:33.120 --> 0:38:36.319 focus on sports. Yeah, exactly, and and I didn't realize that. 0:38:36.440 --> 0:38:40.319 And uh, for a lot of more traditional academics, you know, 0:38:40.360 --> 0:38:43.319 studying sports is and it's a little frowned on. It's 0:38:43.320 --> 0:38:47.160 seen as frivolous or you know, academics can be elitist, 0:38:47.400 --> 0:38:52.000 you know, d bags sometimes. Yeah, amazingly not me though, 0:38:52.000 --> 0:38:54.799 of course I don't want to lean into that. Um, 0:38:54.880 --> 0:38:56.520 I don't want to lean into this too. I don't 0:38:56.520 --> 0:38:58.799 know why I just said that we have all kinds 0:38:58.840 --> 0:39:02.040 of academics on. But I guess we just filter filter 0:39:02.080 --> 0:39:03.800 all the bad ones. I don't know. You know, do 0:39:03.840 --> 0:39:05.839 you talk to an academic and think he's just not right? 0:39:06.200 --> 0:39:10.640 Did he's a d bag? Rin? Um? No, I don't 0:39:10.640 --> 0:39:15.279 think we've I haven't had that experience yet for this podcast. 0:39:15.960 --> 0:39:19.080 But everybody seems to have a story that they heard 0:39:19.920 --> 0:39:26.920 about an academic elitist or the act community being elitist 0:39:27.080 --> 0:39:30.439 in person. Absolutely, but like for this podcast, I think 0:39:30.440 --> 0:39:33.480 we just we just have a kind of a good 0:39:34.760 --> 0:39:37.440 But it's one of those things that yeah, but it 0:39:37.560 --> 0:39:39.640 is one of those things that everybody's like, oh, yeah, 0:39:39.840 --> 0:39:42.600 those pretentious But then I just the more I think 0:39:42.600 --> 0:39:45.879 about it, it hasn't been my finding. I was recently saying, 0:39:45.920 --> 0:39:47.560 I don't know if I said it here, but if 0:39:47.560 --> 0:39:50.560 there's one story Americans like, it's a story about a 0:39:50.560 --> 0:39:54.279 celebrity who was an asshole. And if there's another story, 0:39:54.320 --> 0:39:57.000 they like, it's about a celebrity who did something really nice. 0:39:57.960 --> 0:40:01.359 But in that order, they prefer one about like, Oh, 0:40:01.440 --> 0:40:04.600 I met him and he was horrible. He was yelling 0:40:04.640 --> 0:40:07.160 at a waiter. But then the other one would be, oh, 0:40:07.160 --> 0:40:09.640 when he gave the kid twenty dollars. Like people love 0:40:09.680 --> 0:40:12.359 those stories, you know, and people love a good story 0:40:12.360 --> 0:40:16.080 about a bad academic. Yeah, And you know, it makes 0:40:16.080 --> 0:40:17.919 me wonder when when you went around the room and said, 0:40:18.000 --> 0:40:19.520 I don't know that I've come across a love of 0:40:19.600 --> 0:40:22.000 academics who are d bags. It reminded me the old 0:40:22.000 --> 0:40:25.000 expression that that if you don't know who the office 0:40:25.000 --> 0:40:29.759 asshole is, it's probably you. So so maybe hey, you 0:40:29.760 --> 0:40:32.600 know what, I uh just pardon me for one second, 0:40:32.600 --> 0:40:34.239 because you might already know this. But when I was 0:40:34.239 --> 0:40:36.399 reading the other day I was reading, I went down 0:40:36.400 --> 0:40:40.120 this kind of like research. I had to research something, 0:40:40.160 --> 0:40:42.000 and that let me to wonder about something else, and 0:40:42.000 --> 0:40:45.839 that let me to wonder about something else. Um, I'll 0:40:45.840 --> 0:40:47.400 tell you a quick what I was doing. I was 0:40:47.400 --> 0:40:50.359 reading about, you know, the guy we bought a lask Off, 0:40:51.000 --> 0:40:54.040 the one of the roman Offs. This is Alexander to 0:40:54.080 --> 0:40:56.480 the second. The Russians are like, we bought a lask 0:40:56.520 --> 0:41:00.719 Off film his kid in eighteen seventy two for his 0:41:00.800 --> 0:41:05.120 twenty second birthday, came out and hunted buffalo with Buffalo 0:41:05.160 --> 0:41:11.200 Bill Cody and Custer went on a hunting trip and 0:41:11.200 --> 0:41:14.520 then Buffalo Bill Cody get that like shortly after got 0:41:14.520 --> 0:41:18.000 a Congressional Medal of Honor in the Indian Wars. It 0:41:18.040 --> 0:41:21.600 was then rescinded and then given back to him. But 0:41:21.719 --> 0:41:24.600 that got me reading about, uh, why they sold us 0:41:24.640 --> 0:41:27.520 Alaska in the first place. And you know that It's 0:41:27.560 --> 0:41:29.759 like how when you learn about that, you learn about 0:41:29.760 --> 0:41:33.560 the Seward's folly, Seward's ice box. That that because like 0:41:33.600 --> 0:41:35.719 Seward was the guy on the US and did the 0:41:35.760 --> 0:41:38.759 purchase and you always hear that people that he was 0:41:38.880 --> 0:41:42.360 ridiculed and lampooned for buying Alaska, and people like to 0:41:42.360 --> 0:41:45.319 point out like and look, no right, but uh, this 0:41:45.400 --> 0:41:46.920 his story was saying that is one of like the 0:41:47.040 --> 0:41:51.320 undying myths in American history was that it was ridiculed 0:41:51.320 --> 0:41:55.200 and lampooned. And he went and looked at newspaper editorials. 0:41:55.239 --> 0:41:59.960 He found like fifty newspaper editorials about the purchase, forty 0:42:00.080 --> 0:42:05.840 nine were overwhelmingly positive. Public opinion was overwhelmingly positive. But 0:42:06.000 --> 0:42:10.520 some guy throughout like the Seward's ice box thing, and 0:42:10.600 --> 0:42:12.960 people latched onto it, and he said, you can't kill 0:42:13.040 --> 0:42:16.120 the myth that Americans. You can't kill the myth that 0:42:16.160 --> 0:42:19.960 somehow Americans didn't want Alaska like they wanted it bad, 0:42:21.000 --> 0:42:23.960 and the Rooski's sold it to us because they were 0:42:23.960 --> 0:42:27.200 in a fight with They were always worn with Britain, 0:42:28.320 --> 0:42:30.719 and they knew that with the British presence in Canada 0:42:31.000 --> 0:42:32.560 that the next time they got to fight, they'd lose 0:42:32.600 --> 0:42:34.640 Alaska anyways, and so they just wanted to dump it 0:42:34.640 --> 0:42:36.279 on us because we'd be able to hang onto it 0:42:36.320 --> 0:42:38.480 and they didn't want to have to deal with that. 0:42:39.239 --> 0:42:43.759 So anyways, hunting, fishing in the New South. So you 0:42:43.800 --> 0:42:47.000 were interested in sports. Yeah, I thought I was gonna 0:42:47.000 --> 0:42:50.000 study sports, and when I went to grad school this 0:42:50.120 --> 0:42:54.200 sort of uh sports. Another guy wants to do baseball, 0:42:54.280 --> 0:42:56.960 and I have interesting idea. I'm sure you do, but baseball? 0:42:57.040 --> 0:42:58.719 Come on, you know, can you can you help us 0:42:58.800 --> 0:43:02.279 understand if you're gonna do sports as a historian, what 0:43:02.560 --> 0:43:04.560 does that mean? Like like, you know, like baseball, like 0:43:04.560 --> 0:43:06.640 what aspect of it? Right? Well, you know, it's it's 0:43:06.640 --> 0:43:09.760 really about the kind of the social and cultural implications. 0:43:09.800 --> 0:43:12.680 What larger connections you know, can you draw? Basically For me, 0:43:12.719 --> 0:43:15.160 I always tell people that, you know, we try to 0:43:15.200 --> 0:43:18.600 think of what historians do is as a mirror, you know, 0:43:18.640 --> 0:43:22.399 So what kind of refracting mirror can you get to 0:43:22.400 --> 0:43:25.879 to demonstrate you know, larger social truths, you know, by 0:43:25.920 --> 0:43:29.480 one specific topic. And you know, I think the academics 0:43:29.480 --> 0:43:31.399 have a tendency to be really elitist and they think, 0:43:31.440 --> 0:43:34.920 you know, I've actually heard academics say this at conferences. 0:43:34.960 --> 0:43:38.360 I I when I did a panel on my book 0:43:38.880 --> 0:43:41.920 a number of years ago, somebody said, I don't know, 0:43:41.960 --> 0:43:46.040 I just I just don't get the topic. I mean, 0:43:46.239 --> 0:43:49.520 it's interesting because a lot of people hunt. But just 0:43:49.560 --> 0:43:51.960 because a whole bunch of people are really into something, 0:43:52.040 --> 0:43:54.120 that doesn't mean it's worthy of study. And I said, well, 0:43:54.160 --> 0:43:55.840 I think you need to think about what you just said. 0:43:56.600 --> 0:43:58.359 You know, if if if a whole bunch of people 0:43:58.360 --> 0:44:01.360 are into something, it's by definition worthy of study. And 0:44:01.400 --> 0:44:03.439 who are you know? And historians are famous for sort 0:44:03.480 --> 0:44:07.080 of declaring certain topics acceptable and unacceptable. You back up 0:44:09.360 --> 0:44:13.160 the president of diplomats, kings, popes, generals, that's what we study. 0:44:13.560 --> 0:44:15.560 You know, if you just said, let's study the environment, 0:44:15.600 --> 0:44:18.400 let's study women, let's study sports, they would have said, why, 0:44:18.480 --> 0:44:23.000 you know, what's the point of that, Just because everybody 0:44:23.000 --> 0:44:25.680 in the world loves this stuff, and you know, and 0:44:25.719 --> 0:44:27.760 what the funny thing is And this is maybe off topic, 0:44:27.800 --> 0:44:30.440 but one of the complaints I have about the discipline 0:44:30.440 --> 0:44:36.279 of history is when people indulge that like, well, okay, sports, okay, 0:44:36.320 --> 0:44:39.680 it's popular, but let's let's study something more important. What 0:44:39.760 --> 0:44:42.440 that does is it removes historians further and further away 0:44:42.440 --> 0:44:45.719 from the lived experiences of real people and makes them 0:44:45.800 --> 0:44:49.200 less relevant. And then people wonder, you know, why people 0:44:49.200 --> 0:44:51.560 don't read books anymore? You know, so it's sort of like, 0:44:51.600 --> 0:44:54.640 in my mind, it's embrace the things that are popular. 0:44:54.680 --> 0:44:58.760 If they're popular, that means they're culturally resonant, and it matters. 0:44:58.800 --> 0:45:00.919 So part of the reason, like a lot of people 0:45:00.920 --> 0:45:03.000 like you know, kind of have you know, didn't exactly 0:45:03.120 --> 0:45:04.880 cruise through grad school. It got to be kind of 0:45:04.880 --> 0:45:07.799 a drag after a while finishing the dissertation. But one 0:45:07.840 --> 0:45:09.080 of the things that kept me going every time I 0:45:09.160 --> 0:45:11.520 run across someone who would say, oh god, you're hunting 0:45:11.520 --> 0:45:13.400 and fishing, I'd be like, all right, let's let's finish 0:45:13.480 --> 0:45:15.759 this thing. Sure, just to show I'm gonna steal the 0:45:15.840 --> 0:45:18.279 argument you just made for when I retired, I write 0:45:18.280 --> 0:45:22.440 a book, anti Shakespeare book. I'm gonna kind of adapt 0:45:22.480 --> 0:45:25.799 that argument from my anti Shakespeare book. That sounds removing 0:45:25.880 --> 0:45:28.759 people from things they can even like removing kids at 0:45:28.760 --> 0:45:32.640 an early age, introducing them to the idea of reading 0:45:32.680 --> 0:45:35.759 things they'll never understand. Yeah, and you know, and and 0:45:36.160 --> 0:45:38.200 relate to you use the best example, I think too, 0:45:38.200 --> 0:45:40.240 because I hear this all the time. You know, people 0:45:40.280 --> 0:45:43.480 bring up Shakespeare and they'll say, well, what most people 0:45:43.520 --> 0:45:46.719 don't understand that the voice they would use and they say, 0:45:46.880 --> 0:45:49.520 but no, yeah, exactly, I've heard enough time. Not that 0:45:49.560 --> 0:45:51.680 it doesn't come naturally to me obviously, but but I 0:45:51.719 --> 0:45:55.120 can fake it. I can fake me anti bag um. 0:45:55.160 --> 0:45:57.239 What most people would say, at least the kind of 0:45:57.320 --> 0:45:59.400 arrogant academics as they would say, well, what you need 0:45:59.440 --> 0:46:02.440 to understand end is that Shakespeare was was consumed by 0:46:02.440 --> 0:46:05.919 the masses. It was art for the average person back then. 0:46:06.480 --> 0:46:08.160 That that that means it would have been great for them. 0:46:08.280 --> 0:46:11.120 Exactly was it was great for the average people back then? 0:46:11.200 --> 0:46:13.279 And and what I tell him is what we do 0:46:14.120 --> 0:46:16.359 this is we don't do that exactly. So it's like 0:46:16.600 --> 0:46:19.600 you're saying we should study Shakespeare because the average person 0:46:19.760 --> 0:46:22.040 really connected with that at the time. Well, my thought 0:46:22.080 --> 0:46:24.480 would then be, what does the average person connect with now? 0:46:25.040 --> 0:46:27.480 And let's study that. You know. So, I mean I 0:46:27.760 --> 0:46:30.600 like Shakespeare, don't get me wrong, but but I don't 0:46:30.719 --> 0:46:33.000 think the idea holes that. You know, the sort of 0:46:33.239 --> 0:46:35.760 division between high and low culture always sort of ticked 0:46:35.760 --> 0:46:38.680 me off as as an historian. So because if you're 0:46:38.719 --> 0:46:40.960 if you're not studying history to study people, what what 0:46:41.000 --> 0:46:43.680 the heck are you doing for? But you don't, you don't, Uh, 0:46:43.760 --> 0:46:46.359 there's not like a movement of like populous historians are 0:46:46.400 --> 0:46:50.120 there there, Yeah, there actually is. Um. Actually, part of 0:46:50.120 --> 0:46:52.319 the reason I have a kind of the outlook on 0:46:52.400 --> 0:46:54.440 history that I do is I went to grad school 0:46:54.440 --> 0:46:57.759 at the University of Pittsburgh, and uh, there's a there's 0:46:57.800 --> 0:47:00.239 a movement in in in the discipline of history that's 0:47:00.239 --> 0:47:02.040 been going on now for the past thirty or forty 0:47:02.120 --> 0:47:06.080 years called history from Below, and it's it's emphasizing you know, 0:47:06.120 --> 0:47:10.360 working class people and uh, cultural traditions and political movements 0:47:10.360 --> 0:47:12.440 that start from the bottom as opposed to from the top, 0:47:12.480 --> 0:47:15.520 and looking at history not from that old perspective of kings, 0:47:15.520 --> 0:47:18.960 princess generals, but but the average person. Marcus Reddicker and 0:47:19.000 --> 0:47:20.920 a few other professors that I had when I was 0:47:20.960 --> 0:47:23.040 at PIT were proponents of that, and that's sort of 0:47:23.400 --> 0:47:25.759 where I come from. I try to, you know, try 0:47:25.800 --> 0:47:28.360 to not be one of those academics that's studying something 0:47:28.360 --> 0:47:32.040 that's completely esoteric or you know, completely irrelevant to people's lives. 0:47:32.040 --> 0:47:34.000 Although people would tell me that for them, maybe this 0:47:34.120 --> 0:47:38.760 topics irrelevant, but it's definitely not, you know, high culture. 0:47:38.800 --> 0:47:40.440 Is what I'm trying, is what I'm sure to avoid 0:47:40.680 --> 0:47:43.000 or at least an exclusionary high culture. So how did 0:47:43.000 --> 0:47:45.560 you how did you tell us how you hit on 0:47:45.640 --> 0:47:50.160 the idea eventually as you as you explored the sports landscape. Well, 0:47:50.200 --> 0:47:52.080 I I knew I wanted to stick to sports because 0:47:52.080 --> 0:47:54.120 it was just something I was really into and I 0:47:54.200 --> 0:47:57.800 and I really rejected that idea that because sports is 0:47:57.840 --> 0:47:59.680 so popular that it must not be worthy of study. 0:47:59.680 --> 0:48:02.360 That seem backwards to me. But I did recognize that 0:48:02.480 --> 0:48:04.719 I gotta I gotta shift gears a little bit. And 0:48:05.120 --> 0:48:08.799 I took a seminar on slavery, and I had the 0:48:08.840 --> 0:48:10.600 idea of maybe i'll, you know, I'll do a research 0:48:10.640 --> 0:48:12.960 paper on slaves and sports. And the professor teaching the 0:48:13.000 --> 0:48:15.000 class said, well, the best place to go there are 0:48:15.040 --> 0:48:18.319 the Works Progress Administration slave interviews. You know, in the 0:48:18.680 --> 0:48:20.919 in the thirties, twenties and thirties, there was a part 0:48:20.920 --> 0:48:23.600 of the you know, the h Worst Progress Administration w 0:48:23.680 --> 0:48:26.560 p A. Uh they sent uh interviewers all over the 0:48:26.560 --> 0:48:29.080 country to interview former slaves before they passed away because 0:48:29.080 --> 0:48:32.319 they were pretty old by then. And UH, he said, 0:48:32.360 --> 0:48:34.000 you know, reading knows is going to be your best 0:48:34.000 --> 0:48:36.200 bet if there's mentions of slaves and sports. I thought, 0:48:36.239 --> 0:48:38.960 maybe i'd find stuff about boxing, you know, so when 0:48:38.960 --> 0:48:40.600 you start looking at the slavery, you were still looking 0:48:40.600 --> 0:48:43.480 at sport, looking at what I don't know, like I 0:48:43.520 --> 0:48:48.480 guess the definition of sports? Yeah, games? Yeah, how how 0:48:48.480 --> 0:48:51.359 did does the slave system you know allow for that? 0:48:51.560 --> 0:48:54.200 And you know, I had been kind of really interested 0:48:54.200 --> 0:48:56.840 into certain certain stories there. For example, there was a 0:48:56.840 --> 0:49:01.520 slave boxer named Tom Mullineux who actually was was sent 0:49:01.600 --> 0:49:04.160 overseas to England by his master, and he actually fought 0:49:04.280 --> 0:49:08.000 the British champion uh in a in a very publicized 0:49:08.200 --> 0:49:10.919 knot match in England that nobody in the States paid 0:49:10.960 --> 0:49:13.000 attention to it all, you know, so there was some 0:49:13.120 --> 0:49:16.319 interesting He was owned by a person, Yeah he was. 0:49:16.400 --> 0:49:19.719 He was an enslaved boxer, and it wasn't you know, 0:49:19.920 --> 0:49:23.759 all that common, but it did exist. And I thought, okay, 0:49:23.760 --> 0:49:25.680 I'm gonna find all kind of interesting stuff like that, 0:49:25.800 --> 0:49:29.120 and I found there wasn't any of that. It was occasional, brief, 0:49:29.160 --> 0:49:34.200 little snippets. But what impressed me was Tom MuLinux. I 0:49:34.200 --> 0:49:38.000 think it's m O L y n e a u X, 0:49:39.120 --> 0:49:45.160 and he was that we had I want to spend 0:49:45.200 --> 0:49:47.560 too much time, Max, That's something we could go find out. 0:49:47.600 --> 0:49:53.080 But you go to a place where there's no slavery, 0:49:53.120 --> 0:49:56.680 like slavers abolished, you think he would get there. He 0:49:56.800 --> 0:49:59.960 just walk out the door. Well that's it, you know, 0:50:00.040 --> 0:50:02.560 it's it's I've heard that argument before and this is 0:50:02.760 --> 0:50:05.640 way more than you want. But um, when England, uh 0:50:05.680 --> 0:50:07.640 you know, passed a series of laws after what was 0:50:07.680 --> 0:50:10.200 called the Somerset case in in the early nineteenth century, 0:50:10.680 --> 0:50:13.120 the argument that the courts used was that English air 0:50:13.280 --> 0:50:16.600 is too free for a slave to breathe. And there 0:50:16.600 --> 0:50:18.799 were slaves that were set freed when they were brought 0:50:18.880 --> 0:50:22.040 to mainland England by their master, because the judge would rule, hey, 0:50:22.320 --> 0:50:25.359 there's no slavery in England, all the possessions we own. Yeah, 0:50:25.480 --> 0:50:28.399 but you know, but then once they abolished slavery, they 0:50:28.400 --> 0:50:31.360 were setting slaves free that that arrived on British soil 0:50:31.520 --> 0:50:35.319 fairly regularly, uh In in that time period didn't seem 0:50:35.360 --> 0:50:37.800 to happen that way. For Tom Molino, though, it is 0:50:37.840 --> 0:50:40.840 a little different. Situation is bizarre, man, and and it 0:50:40.880 --> 0:50:42.719 actually it actually kind of now I think about it 0:50:42.760 --> 0:50:44.880 sets up the kind of the kind of argument of 0:50:44.880 --> 0:50:47.440 the book a little bit. Because um, a lot of 0:50:47.440 --> 0:50:49.920 people found it strange that a boxer like this guy 0:50:50.000 --> 0:50:53.000 is gonna gonna make a celebrity out of his slave boxer, 0:50:53.080 --> 0:50:56.439 travel with him, let him fight people, fight white men. 0:50:56.719 --> 0:50:58.680 How how that doesn't seem like it would fit with 0:50:58.760 --> 0:51:01.879 the slave system. But the critical thing I think that 0:51:01.880 --> 0:51:05.040 that helps get going with the books argument is that 0:51:05.239 --> 0:51:08.359 so much of how white observers are gonna look at 0:51:08.440 --> 0:51:12.200 the sporting activities and for that matter of subsistence activities 0:51:12.480 --> 0:51:15.680 of slaves and then freed people of color, is what 0:51:15.880 --> 0:51:19.640 is there kind of orientation toward me as the master? 0:51:20.360 --> 0:51:22.719 You know, so you certainly would never want to, Hey, 0:51:22.719 --> 0:51:24.879 look there's a there's a slave and he's over there 0:51:25.080 --> 0:51:28.439 beating the hell out of that white guy. Somebody shoot him. 0:51:28.520 --> 0:51:31.080 That's awful that can happen. But yet the same thing 0:51:31.160 --> 0:51:34.040 is going to happen in a boxing ring because the 0:51:34.040 --> 0:51:35.960 owner of Tom Mullin, who was going to say, well, 0:51:36.239 --> 0:51:38.759 since he's my slave, he's an extension of me. That 0:51:38.800 --> 0:51:41.000 means I have the best boxer in the world. I 0:51:41.120 --> 0:51:47.120 have that status. So sort of more independent assertive activities 0:51:47.239 --> 0:51:50.160 by slaves, if they're done for the benefit of the master, 0:51:50.280 --> 0:51:52.719 we're seeing as pretty okay. Who won the bout when 0:51:52.719 --> 0:51:56.040 he went and fought in England. Uh, of course, I'm 0:51:56.080 --> 0:51:59.280 in a blank on that. I think the English champions 0:51:59.320 --> 0:52:01.759 name was Tom crib cr I B B and I 0:52:01.800 --> 0:52:05.640 think crib one, I think, But I also think now 0:52:05.719 --> 0:52:06.800 that I think I think there was a there was 0:52:06.840 --> 0:52:08.920 a return match. I'm not sure if it was in 0:52:08.960 --> 0:52:11.680 the US or if it was there. Yeah, it's it's 0:52:11.719 --> 0:52:15.879 it's a cool area of expertise. Yeah, it's a cool topic. Yeah. 0:52:15.960 --> 0:52:18.280 So so I started reading all these these slave interviews 0:52:18.400 --> 0:52:21.279 and our former slave interviews, and it was you know, 0:52:21.320 --> 0:52:23.520 there's several thousand of them, and it was kind of 0:52:23.520 --> 0:52:26.440 fun to read them. And and uh, I was stunned 0:52:26.480 --> 0:52:29.400 by how often hunting and fishing came up. And I 0:52:29.440 --> 0:52:32.360 brought that up to some professors at PIT and you know, 0:52:32.440 --> 0:52:34.359 some of them were like, Okay, that might be might 0:52:34.360 --> 0:52:36.799 be an interesting thing to study, and others were like, well, 0:52:36.800 --> 0:52:40.359 of course, it's a mundane daily activity. Who cares. There's 0:52:40.360 --> 0:52:43.920 probably no larger significance there. Uh So the more I read, though, 0:52:43.960 --> 0:52:45.359 the more I kept thinking, you know, when they when 0:52:45.400 --> 0:52:47.319 they write about these things or talk about it in 0:52:47.360 --> 0:52:51.719 these interviews, they're not just saying Uh, wow, this is great. 0:52:51.719 --> 0:52:54.319 I could feed my family, which which is huge you 0:52:54.320 --> 0:52:56.160 don't of itself, that's a huge thing, you know for 0:52:56.200 --> 0:52:59.000 a slave. If a master is trying to reduce food 0:52:59.040 --> 0:53:01.919 costs and you know, feeding slaves on the cheap, which 0:53:01.960 --> 0:53:04.520 most of them did. You know, slaves were often malnourished, 0:53:04.560 --> 0:53:06.080 and it was you know, it's not a not a 0:53:06.080 --> 0:53:11.919 good scene in that regard. Um. So you know, you could, um, 0:53:12.000 --> 0:53:13.760 you know see a lot of slaves hunting and fishing, 0:53:14.120 --> 0:53:17.360 but they didn't just talk about the nutritional value or 0:53:17.360 --> 0:53:19.879 you know, or the food or even the income from 0:53:19.920 --> 0:53:23.320 selling you know, extra Through some market activities, I started 0:53:23.320 --> 0:53:26.040 to run across more and more little mentions of you know, 0:53:26.160 --> 0:53:29.439 little things like uh, you know I felt free or 0:53:29.640 --> 0:53:31.319 you know, I felt like I was more of a man. 0:53:32.160 --> 0:53:33.839 And those kind of mentions made me think, now there's 0:53:33.840 --> 0:53:37.120 something more here. It's not just about food. There's there's 0:53:37.120 --> 0:53:40.080 there's this story of independence. You know. You know, if 0:53:40.080 --> 0:53:43.239 you're oft in the woods and uh you know you're 0:53:43.280 --> 0:53:46.440 you're hunting small game, um, you may or may not 0:53:46.520 --> 0:53:48.600 be doing something the master wants you to do. And 0:53:48.640 --> 0:53:50.520 if you're doing something he doesn't want you to do, well, 0:53:50.560 --> 0:53:53.680 then that's you know, defying the system, and that's significant 0:53:54.239 --> 0:53:57.280 if you're feeding yourself and your family when the master 0:53:57.400 --> 0:54:00.239 is trying to keep you, you know, slightly mound work, 0:54:00.280 --> 0:54:03.040 so you're more dependent upon upon him than then you're 0:54:03.040 --> 0:54:05.719 pushing back against the system. UM. I think what what 0:54:05.800 --> 0:54:08.719 did it for me was I was reading um a 0:54:08.760 --> 0:54:13.200 published uh diary from from a former slave named Charles Ball. 0:54:13.320 --> 0:54:15.160 I'm forgetting where he would I want to say Georgia, 0:54:15.160 --> 0:54:17.680 but that might not be right. Um. But he had 0:54:17.719 --> 0:54:22.040 this long entry in his in his memoirs because he toured, 0:54:22.120 --> 0:54:24.879 you know, after after emancipation, he toward the country and 0:54:25.160 --> 0:54:27.839 you know, did a lot of speaking about yeah, which 0:54:27.880 --> 0:54:30.319 which was fairly common I'm not fairly common, but I 0:54:30.320 --> 0:54:33.120 mean there's a handful of pretty well known former slaves 0:54:33.120 --> 0:54:35.480 who traveled the country and uh, you know, first as 0:54:35.480 --> 0:54:37.840 abolitionists and then later as you know, kind of reformers 0:54:37.880 --> 0:54:42.080 after emancipation. But Charles Ball wrote about um, the first 0:54:42.080 --> 0:54:43.759 time he got a shotgun because it was you know, 0:54:43.800 --> 0:54:46.640 it was it was prohibited, and he just happened to 0:54:47.000 --> 0:54:49.920 meet someone who had an old, rusty shotgun and he 0:54:49.960 --> 0:54:51.640 had a hiding place and he thought I'll get this, 0:54:51.680 --> 0:54:55.200 and he quietly stashed it away and began to hunt. 0:54:55.280 --> 0:54:57.239 And he talked about the first time he went out 0:54:57.280 --> 0:54:59.880 and hunted with with this old shotgun that he found. 0:55:00.120 --> 0:55:02.319 And I remember the quote because it struck me so much. 0:55:02.360 --> 0:55:04.359 It was short quote too, that helped. But he said, 0:55:04.840 --> 0:55:07.880 but he said, I now began to live well and 0:55:07.960 --> 0:55:12.399 to feel myself, at least in some measure, an independent man. 0:55:13.239 --> 0:55:16.279 And that really struck stuck, stuck with me. And I thought, well, 0:55:16.280 --> 0:55:18.719 if that kind of attitude is there, if it was 0:55:18.760 --> 0:55:22.640 seen as as by slaves as in some ways guaranteeing independence, 0:55:23.560 --> 0:55:25.560 while at the same time it was seen as a 0:55:25.600 --> 0:55:29.480 thing from the master's point of view that benefited his operation, 0:55:30.040 --> 0:55:32.719 like it's sort of had both sides to it. I 0:55:32.800 --> 0:55:36.800 was really curious how that would shake out after emancipation, 0:55:37.320 --> 0:55:39.080 you know, basically, like you know, you know, if I 0:55:39.200 --> 0:55:41.960 if I'm a slave owner and I can uh you know, oh, 0:55:42.080 --> 0:55:43.719 you want to go hunt and and and make your 0:55:43.800 --> 0:55:47.720 extra game for your family, go ahead. Look what a wonderful, awesome, 0:55:47.719 --> 0:55:51.480 benevolent master I am. I'm saving money on food provisions, 0:55:51.840 --> 0:55:54.839 and you know this is great? What what could go wrong? Right? 0:55:55.160 --> 0:55:57.000 But then from the slaves point of view, it's like, yeah, 0:55:57.160 --> 0:55:59.080 I'm feeding myself in a way that you don't intend. 0:55:59.440 --> 0:56:02.400 I'm sneaking off a lot of times to check traps 0:56:02.520 --> 0:56:04.200 or hunt when I'm not supposed to, or you know, 0:56:04.239 --> 0:56:06.960 go fish when I'm not supposed to, uh, engage in 0:56:07.000 --> 0:56:10.799 market activities that are usually not permitted for slaves. So 0:56:11.000 --> 0:56:13.479 for me, it's going to be more about asserting my 0:56:13.480 --> 0:56:17.560 my independence, my mobility, my liberty. Um So there's this 0:56:17.719 --> 0:56:22.799 really deep tradition of sort of different purposes, you know, 0:56:22.840 --> 0:56:24.000 sort of you know, you want to go back to 0:56:24.040 --> 0:56:26.640 the very you know, the older European part of the story. 0:56:26.640 --> 0:56:28.120 It's you know, it's no different than you know, the 0:56:28.640 --> 0:56:31.320 poor peasant hunting the king the king's deer, you know, 0:56:31.440 --> 0:56:35.360 kind of same thing, you know, dear for uh, you know, 0:56:35.400 --> 0:56:37.080 for a king, this is a it's a it's a 0:56:37.120 --> 0:56:39.359 it's a thing to be granted as a privilege. It's 0:56:39.440 --> 0:56:41.960 it's a way to control, it's a way to to uh, 0:56:42.920 --> 0:56:46.879 you know, show your standing in society. And as long 0:56:46.920 --> 0:56:48.680 as my slaves are doing it in such a way 0:56:48.719 --> 0:56:51.200 that doesn't mess me up, I am totally fine with it. 0:56:51.680 --> 0:56:54.399 You know, I I I'll cultivate that image. I'll tell 0:56:54.440 --> 0:56:56.640 my friends, I have the best huntsman, I have the 0:56:56.680 --> 0:56:59.520 best dogs, I have the best equipment, because it's an 0:56:59.520 --> 0:57:02.480 extension me as a master, because that was an important 0:57:02.520 --> 0:57:05.440 thing in the minds of elite Southerners back then. Can 0:57:05.480 --> 0:57:09.359 you real quick hit on the word antebellum? Sure, Um, 0:57:09.920 --> 0:57:11.759 just I want to. I want to establish like sort 0:57:11.800 --> 0:57:15.040 of the you know, the timeline a little bit, sure 0:57:15.080 --> 0:57:17.560 what the basic definition of the word just means before 0:57:17.600 --> 0:57:20.240 the war. Um, But when we think about the Antebellum 0:57:20.280 --> 0:57:22.680 period in the US, we we sort of think about 0:57:23.160 --> 0:57:26.240 sort of the period between the Constitution and the Civil War. 0:57:26.760 --> 0:57:29.320 That's sort of the Antebellum period. And more specifically, I 0:57:29.320 --> 0:57:33.640 would say even once we get into the early nineteenth century. Um, 0:57:33.680 --> 0:57:36.280 that's usually what his stories mean when they say Antebellum. Yeah, 0:57:36.480 --> 0:57:40.480 it's come. It's like, uh, that Antebellum period, Like that 0:57:40.600 --> 0:57:46.360 Antebellum became like the Antebellum Yeah, capital all the cultural 0:57:46.520 --> 0:57:50.000 images and all that. Yeah. Because your book spends a 0:57:50.120 --> 0:57:56.080 chapter or so on the Antebellum period, and then it 0:57:56.160 --> 0:57:59.160 spends a lot of time on the hell's the what's 0:57:59.160 --> 0:58:02.320 the opposite of antibe them. Uh, we'll post bellum. I 0:58:02.320 --> 0:58:05.320 guess that's a little clunkier. People don't use post bellum 0:58:05.400 --> 0:58:08.120 is usually post emancipation is kind of people say in 0:58:08.560 --> 0:58:13.120 these circles. So, uh, explain like what hunting and fishing 0:58:13.120 --> 0:58:16.200 would have looked like m for slaves, Like what what 0:58:16.280 --> 0:58:18.840 kind of activities there? Not what it would look like, 0:58:18.920 --> 0:58:22.400 but what were they actually doing? How are they getting game? Well? 0:58:22.880 --> 0:58:25.480 The kind of the key point I think for both 0:58:25.720 --> 0:58:28.680 slaves that engage in these activities and then and then 0:58:28.680 --> 0:58:33.840 free persons after emancipation is that it's it's a story 0:58:34.040 --> 0:58:37.280 of what's effective and what can I do so that 0:58:37.400 --> 0:58:39.400 you know, there's very little concern for like, well, we 0:58:39.440 --> 0:58:41.400 got to use the proper sporting methods and we've got 0:58:41.440 --> 0:58:43.560 to make sure we you know, we we can't hunt 0:58:43.560 --> 0:58:45.880 with fire, that would be wrong. Now it's like whatever worked, 0:58:45.920 --> 0:58:48.480 whatever we could do, because what mattered was the food. 0:58:48.560 --> 0:58:51.360 What matters was game to sell if they were able 0:58:51.360 --> 0:58:54.720 to do that. So really it was you know, anything, 0:58:54.920 --> 0:59:00.360 you know, any method, any animal that they could get. Um. 0:59:00.360 --> 0:59:03.480 What I think what's interesting about about that question in 0:59:03.680 --> 0:59:09.600 the Antebellum period is because slaves were often limited in 0:59:09.880 --> 0:59:11.960 terms of what they could go after. You know, for example, 0:59:11.960 --> 0:59:13.720 you're not if you're if you're a slave, and even 0:59:13.760 --> 0:59:15.440 if you have permission, you're probably not going to go 0:59:15.520 --> 0:59:18.040 out and start shooting a bunch of deer because local 0:59:18.040 --> 0:59:19.640 planters gonna say, hey, what the heck are you doing. 0:59:20.040 --> 0:59:23.720 That's not for you, you know. Uh. So they developed 0:59:23.760 --> 0:59:26.920 a pretty good reliance on small game, and that was 0:59:27.040 --> 0:59:30.360 a matter of practical necessity. They were abundant, easy, they 0:59:30.360 --> 0:59:32.520 could set simple traps. You know, they could go out 0:59:32.520 --> 0:59:35.720 when they had free time on the weekends. Yeah, and 0:59:35.720 --> 0:59:38.000 and do Yeah. Slave dogs were everywhere. It was. It 0:59:38.080 --> 0:59:39.560 was it was just the you know part of the 0:59:39.600 --> 0:59:41.840 scene you know, on on plantations in the South and 0:59:42.280 --> 0:59:48.000 huge part of of of getting extra food. And you could, uh, 0:59:48.040 --> 0:59:53.320 you know, embrace every method imaginable. You know. In some states, 0:59:53.480 --> 0:59:56.920 slaves could hunt with firearms if they had written permission 0:59:56.960 --> 0:59:59.800 from the master and if the master purchased a bond 1:00:00.600 --> 1:00:03.360 basically like okay, you want to have a slave with 1:00:03.360 --> 1:00:06.439 a gun to be an official huntsman for the plantation. Uh. 1:00:06.480 --> 1:00:08.120 We have a state law that says you've got to 1:00:08.160 --> 1:00:12.680 pay a thousand dollar churity. So if something happens if 1:00:12.680 --> 1:00:14.360 that slave does something with that gun that they're not 1:00:14.400 --> 1:00:17.000 supposed to, you gotta pay us a thousand dollars. In 1:00:17.000 --> 1:00:19.840 other words, how secure are you that your slave can 1:00:19.920 --> 1:00:22.840 be trusted with this gun? So it's there that's anti 1:00:22.920 --> 1:00:25.040 to a stuff right there. Well, I mean you can imagine, 1:00:25.080 --> 1:00:28.840 you know, you can imagine the the concern about slaves 1:00:28.840 --> 1:00:31.959 with firearms. It was just it was just not That's why. 1:00:32.560 --> 1:00:34.680 That's one thing that surprising about the book is, Um, 1:00:34.920 --> 1:00:36.960 I would assume like, well, of course not. Then you 1:00:37.120 --> 1:00:40.240 mentioned cases where people that a slave would be allowed 1:00:40.960 --> 1:00:44.440 would have, you know, the resource provided and be able 1:00:44.480 --> 1:00:47.040 allowed to go into the woods and hunt. Yeah, which 1:00:47.080 --> 1:00:48.760 brings up all these which just brings up all these 1:00:48.760 --> 1:00:52.120 practical questions. Um, And I know it's kind of beyond 1:00:52.120 --> 1:00:56.000 the scope of what you did, but uh, how hard 1:00:56.120 --> 1:00:59.320 like how you couldn't just go into the woods and 1:00:59.320 --> 1:01:03.560 then disbanded. I mean, you're separated by hundreds of miles 1:01:03.560 --> 1:01:06.640 of territory. It's just it's just hard to imagine someone 1:01:06.760 --> 1:01:12.360 kind of fluidly moving out of supervision into supervision going 1:01:12.400 --> 1:01:15.440 out at night to hunt. Right, You're you're not supervised, 1:01:15.480 --> 1:01:19.120 You're not but then it's just it's just impossible and practical. 1:01:19.120 --> 1:01:21.840 I mean, you have a family probably, so you'd be 1:01:21.920 --> 1:01:25.360 abandoning your family to take off um and all kinds 1:01:25.400 --> 1:01:27.880 of other obstacles, but just kind of you almost wish 1:01:27.880 --> 1:01:31.480 you could look back and see sort of the parameters 1:01:31.520 --> 1:01:35.320 of it. You know, was going two miles away, Like, 1:01:35.840 --> 1:01:38.720 no way, I can go two miles away. You can 1:01:38.760 --> 1:01:41.360 go down to the river bottom. But yeah, it's it's 1:01:41.360 --> 1:01:44.560 hard to imagine sort of epic excursions, the limited time 1:01:44.600 --> 1:01:46.240 that slaves had, you know, because you know, if you're 1:01:46.240 --> 1:01:48.840 in you know, say you know parts of the South 1:01:48.880 --> 1:01:52.200 where they're growing tobacco or cotton um. You know, these 1:01:52.200 --> 1:01:54.680 are what they call the gang system. These are just 1:01:54.880 --> 1:01:57.480 huge groups of slaves in the field, work by an overseer, 1:01:57.920 --> 1:01:59.520 you know, working for when the sun comes up until 1:01:59.520 --> 1:02:01.160 when the sun goes down. There's not a lot of 1:02:01.160 --> 1:02:03.640 time or energy, you know for these kind of activities. 1:02:03.680 --> 1:02:05.800 You know, Sunday's you know, you had to give slaves 1:02:05.800 --> 1:02:09.320 Sunday off because you know, good Christians. Uh so, uh, 1:02:09.440 --> 1:02:11.200 Sundays would be a day you could do it if 1:02:11.240 --> 1:02:13.400 you had young kids that that weren't working out in 1:02:13.400 --> 1:02:15.000 the field yet. They could certainly go out there and 1:02:15.040 --> 1:02:17.280 fish and you know, trap small game and things like that. 1:02:17.880 --> 1:02:19.760 But a lot of it depended upon where you were. 1:02:20.160 --> 1:02:22.200 You know, if you were a slave in like South Carolina, 1:02:22.240 --> 1:02:25.200 for example, and you're on what they called the task system, 1:02:25.240 --> 1:02:27.680 where you know, rice cultivation and some other crops, tended 1:02:27.720 --> 1:02:29.960 to rather than just say, get as many slaves as 1:02:29.960 --> 1:02:31.160 you can, put them out in the field and work 1:02:31.240 --> 1:02:34.120 them with an overseer, there's too many individual small tasks 1:02:34.120 --> 1:02:36.480 that need to be done in say rice cultivation, so 1:02:36.520 --> 1:02:38.000 instead you would just make a list of all the 1:02:38.000 --> 1:02:41.640 work that needed to be done, give individual slaves individual tasks, 1:02:41.680 --> 1:02:43.600 and then tell them as soon as you're finished, you're 1:02:43.600 --> 1:02:46.040 done for the day. So then slaves in those parts 1:02:46.080 --> 1:02:49.920 of the South had motivation finished the task system, yeah, 1:02:50.000 --> 1:02:52.880 and you were Then you then became a specialist at 1:02:52.880 --> 1:02:55.680 a task well not necessarily a specialist, but you were 1:02:55.680 --> 1:02:58.920 basically told on a daily basis, like not like a 1:02:59.680 --> 1:03:01.400 this is your deal for the year. Now, it's like, 1:03:01.400 --> 1:03:03.120 make a daily list, here's what I want you to do. 1:03:03.160 --> 1:03:04.640 As soon as you're done, you can go do your 1:03:04.640 --> 1:03:08.360 own thing. Um. Of course, the catch was that was 1:03:08.400 --> 1:03:10.240 a system where you know, if I could have the 1:03:10.280 --> 1:03:12.480 time to go off and hunt or fish or do 1:03:12.560 --> 1:03:15.680 whatever on my own time. Uh, the system was built 1:03:15.680 --> 1:03:17.960 to put in some pretty severe punishments if I stepped 1:03:17.960 --> 1:03:20.320 out a line. So in in the gang system, there 1:03:20.360 --> 1:03:22.720 was less time for these activities. They still did them, 1:03:22.760 --> 1:03:24.919 but there was less time. And then in the task 1:03:24.960 --> 1:03:27.600 and there's a lot more time. But slaves are limited 1:03:27.640 --> 1:03:30.240 by not wanting to push it too much because the 1:03:30.560 --> 1:03:33.000 you know, the task system had the most brutal punishments 1:03:33.040 --> 1:03:38.320 of any you know, slavery system in the US. Anyway, Yeah, 1:03:38.480 --> 1:03:44.840 in the book, you have so many quotes from interviews, right, 1:03:44.960 --> 1:03:52.760 so like slaves recounting experiences, newspaper articles, a lot of editorials, 1:03:53.400 --> 1:03:57.400 letters to the editor, opinion pieces. There's some magazines that 1:03:57.480 --> 1:03:59.440 just come up again and again and again and again, 1:03:59.680 --> 1:04:03.320 these old sporting magazines. Yeah, Forest and Stream and you know, 1:04:03.400 --> 1:04:07.959 Spirit of the Time and then cartoons and other things. 1:04:07.960 --> 1:04:10.040 But you do get, uh, you kind of get a 1:04:10.080 --> 1:04:14.360 sense of the things people did would be uh, and 1:04:14.400 --> 1:04:17.400 talking about that not having guns would be that they 1:04:17.400 --> 1:04:23.080 would hunt with hounds and tree possums and raccoons. And 1:04:23.120 --> 1:04:25.760 then you need to go get the thing you can't 1:04:25.760 --> 1:04:29.000 shoot it down, so you'd climb up and get it. 1:04:29.480 --> 1:04:32.080 And then it just certain like practices. Uh. I was 1:04:32.080 --> 1:04:36.040 surprised by that. You catch a possum and bring it 1:04:36.080 --> 1:04:38.960 back live, you know, and how they cut a stick 1:04:39.680 --> 1:04:42.400 to hold its tail and you kind of like walk 1:04:42.480 --> 1:04:45.680 around like bring it home like a you know, like 1:04:45.720 --> 1:04:50.640 ready to go like a live creature. And then netting, fish, netting, 1:04:50.720 --> 1:04:53.800 running lines. Yeah, I mean I've come across any method 1:04:53.840 --> 1:04:56.360 you could think of. They clearly talked about trapping, but 1:04:56.480 --> 1:04:59.080 you know, different people talk about trapping. All they used 1:04:59.120 --> 1:05:01.480 to poison stream to you know, get as many fish 1:05:01.520 --> 1:05:04.600 at once as they could and fish with dynamite. Slaves 1:05:04.640 --> 1:05:05.960 couldn't do that because you know, you have a hard 1:05:05.960 --> 1:05:08.120 time getting dynamite. But uh, you know, it's it's one 1:05:08.120 --> 1:05:09.919 of those things that points to one of the real 1:05:10.520 --> 1:05:14.760 kind of divisions, points of division uh in in you know, 1:05:14.840 --> 1:05:17.200 kind of the hunting and fishing, you know, kind of 1:05:17.240 --> 1:05:19.680 the discussions of emerging conservation. You know, it comes along 1:05:19.680 --> 1:05:23.080 in the nineteen centuries. Um. You know, poor people, whether 1:05:23.120 --> 1:05:27.480 they're slaves or you know whoever that are independent beyond slaves, 1:05:27.800 --> 1:05:30.400 you know, they don't care about you know, I'm going 1:05:30.480 --> 1:05:32.120 going to use the best weapons and the and the 1:05:32.160 --> 1:05:34.560 most pure sporting methods, and I'm going to make sure 1:05:34.640 --> 1:05:36.800 that all the codes are now. They want they want 1:05:36.800 --> 1:05:38.680 to catch as much as they can. They want that 1:05:38.760 --> 1:05:41.720 freezer full of you know, eighty bags of Walleye or 1:05:41.720 --> 1:05:44.240 whatever it is, right, so you know that, you know, 1:05:44.280 --> 1:05:47.680 they're really focusing on on methods that work. So the 1:05:47.720 --> 1:05:51.080 interesting thing that happens is, um, you know, when when 1:05:51.120 --> 1:05:53.880 you read about the hunting methods of of you know, 1:05:53.960 --> 1:05:57.080 of of lower class people from the perspective of elites, 1:05:57.320 --> 1:06:00.520 you know, during slavery, you know they're they're other little 1:06:00.520 --> 1:06:02.560 hard on it, and you know they criticize it, but 1:06:02.560 --> 1:06:05.000 it's like, of course, poor they hunt, you know, they 1:06:05.040 --> 1:06:07.840 need the food. We won't give them guns. Yeah, yeah, 1:06:08.000 --> 1:06:10.000 fortunately we don't have to do that, but the poor 1:06:10.040 --> 1:06:13.160 people do. And uh. But what's interesting and the good 1:06:13.240 --> 1:06:15.160 question that kind of got me thinking about it, you know, 1:06:15.240 --> 1:06:17.600 for the dissertation and then eventually the book was okay, 1:06:17.640 --> 1:06:21.280 so they're not too critical of these activities now, but 1:06:21.360 --> 1:06:24.800 what happens when the boards reset with emancipation. You know, 1:06:25.240 --> 1:06:27.439 you know, I'm okay with a slave having a gun 1:06:27.480 --> 1:06:29.080 as long as I can think of them as an 1:06:29.080 --> 1:06:31.680 extension of me, or I'm okay with them going off 1:06:31.720 --> 1:06:33.680 on their own and hunting and fishing because it benefits 1:06:33.720 --> 1:06:37.000 my operation. I don't mind that they have these skills. 1:06:37.120 --> 1:06:39.720 And you know, people starting are starting to think of 1:06:40.000 --> 1:06:43.040 African American sportsmen as among the very best in the region. 1:06:43.360 --> 1:06:45.960 I'm okay with that. Because of slavery, what I really 1:06:45.960 --> 1:06:48.840 wondered was is that going to switch, Is that gonna 1:06:48.960 --> 1:06:51.000 is that going to remain consistent, or is there going 1:06:51.040 --> 1:06:53.240 to be a mental shift on the part of elite 1:06:53.240 --> 1:06:56.640 white Southerners. And then on from the slave perspective, I 1:06:56.680 --> 1:07:00.760 was really curious if if emancipation would mean well, these 1:07:00.760 --> 1:07:02.640 are the extra things we had to do because the 1:07:02.640 --> 1:07:06.360 system of slavery wouldn't allow us to take care of ourselves. Otherwise, 1:07:06.440 --> 1:07:09.760 will they still indulge those traditions as much as they 1:07:10.160 --> 1:07:12.840 to participate still? Yeah, So I was really curious how 1:07:12.840 --> 1:07:15.520 things would shake out, you know, after emancipation. And that's 1:07:15.600 --> 1:07:17.320 and then, as I mentioned to Current the other day, 1:07:17.840 --> 1:07:20.800 um yeah, I was prepared to write a dissertation on 1:07:20.960 --> 1:07:24.000 just the question of slavery and hunting and fishing, and 1:07:24.040 --> 1:07:26.360 then somebody wrote another book about it, and I cursed 1:07:26.360 --> 1:07:28.440 a little bit and then set my sights on the 1:07:28.440 --> 1:07:32.320 post emancipation periods. I hate it, almost asked, because we're 1:07:32.320 --> 1:07:35.280 talking about your book. Oh no, it's a great book. 1:07:35.280 --> 1:07:37.600 And he's a great guy. Actually, so the books called 1:07:37.600 --> 1:07:40.400 Bathed in Blood. It's a great title. It's called Bathe 1:07:40.440 --> 1:07:42.640 and Blood, Hunting and Mastering in the Old South, And 1:07:42.640 --> 1:07:48.880 it got even Nick Proctor really interesting. And his deals 1:07:49.360 --> 1:07:52.960 deals with with slavery hunting and not the Yeah, yeah, 1:07:52.960 --> 1:07:55.280 it ends, it ends, uh, you know, with with slavery 1:07:55.320 --> 1:07:58.200 still around. Well, let's let's jump do mancipatient and I'll 1:07:58.920 --> 1:08:02.960 I'll set up another thing that it's very obvious. It's 1:08:03.240 --> 1:08:05.120 very obvious, but I just hadn't given it much thought. 1:08:05.880 --> 1:08:14.600 Would be that after the war and after Lincoln emancipation UM, 1:08:14.680 --> 1:08:18.439 there was still demand for cotton, there was still demand 1:08:18.439 --> 1:08:21.720 for rice, right, so people don't need to resource. I 1:08:21.800 --> 1:08:26.439 never thought about just the simple practical thing of what 1:08:26.479 --> 1:08:29.760 do you do now that you need to attract labors? 1:08:31.120 --> 1:08:33.800 And the tension that that set up, Yeah, that was 1:08:34.000 --> 1:08:36.880 that was you know, in the late eighteen sixties. That 1:08:36.960 --> 1:08:40.040 was like kind of the like the question, and they 1:08:40.120 --> 1:08:42.960 called it the labor question right right to the point, 1:08:43.120 --> 1:08:45.240 what do we do now? And you know we we 1:08:45.240 --> 1:08:47.080 we need to find a way to make sure that 1:08:47.120 --> 1:08:50.920 we have enough labor. Federal government was intensely interested in that. 1:08:51.040 --> 1:08:53.720 And of course, I don't don't want to sound like 1:08:53.720 --> 1:08:56.000 a liberal that says anti government things. I'm not supposed 1:08:56.040 --> 1:08:58.719 to do that right as a liberal, but um, federal 1:08:58.720 --> 1:09:01.800 government can screwed this up. Right after emancipation, they were thinking, Okay, 1:09:01.840 --> 1:09:03.960 we need work. You know, we need cotton. We need 1:09:03.960 --> 1:09:06.120 the Southern economy to get going again, which makes sense. 1:09:07.160 --> 1:09:09.880 We know that former slaves don't want to work, uh 1:09:10.040 --> 1:09:13.320 for their former masters, and we know that former masters. 1:09:13.479 --> 1:09:16.400 You know, I don't really want to do this either, 1:09:16.920 --> 1:09:18.840 but we have to get the Southern economy going. So 1:09:18.880 --> 1:09:23.599 what the federal government mandated during the reconstruction period was that, uh, look, 1:09:23.640 --> 1:09:26.719 former slaves, you will go back to work, and former 1:09:26.760 --> 1:09:30.200 masters you will pay cash. That's just all there is 1:09:30.240 --> 1:09:32.240 to it. They're free, you're gonna pay them their wage 1:09:32.280 --> 1:09:35.719 workers now, so you're gonna work and you're gonna pay cash. 1:09:36.200 --> 1:09:38.040 And both of them want to go. When you say that, 1:09:38.040 --> 1:09:39.960 people didn't want to go work for their former master. 1:09:40.080 --> 1:09:43.120 Do you mean like specifically for their former master or 1:09:43.160 --> 1:09:46.760 do you mean for former masters? Well? Both, Like some 1:09:46.800 --> 1:09:49.320 people were like, um, I'm done my days of laboring, 1:09:49.479 --> 1:09:51.800 you know, for you were over. And some people just 1:09:52.000 --> 1:09:54.200 hit the road and split and that was that. And 1:09:54.240 --> 1:09:57.360 other people it was more like, hey, you know now 1:09:57.400 --> 1:09:59.400 that I'm free, and I you know, I want to 1:09:59.400 --> 1:10:02.280 stay here. It's home. And many people did. But you know, 1:10:02.400 --> 1:10:06.479 the guy that owned me was a real tough piece 1:10:06.520 --> 1:10:08.000 of work. I don't want to work for him, so 1:10:08.080 --> 1:10:09.840 I ability I'm gonna go somewhere else and find someone 1:10:09.880 --> 1:10:11.559 else to work with. So you started to see this 1:10:11.640 --> 1:10:14.080 kind of mobility and people criss crossing parts of the South. 1:10:14.400 --> 1:10:18.000 Did you just just curious? Did you counter cases where 1:10:18.479 --> 1:10:22.120 a slave was emancipated and then turned around and the 1:10:22.160 --> 1:10:25.000 masters like all right, I give up and then like 1:10:25.040 --> 1:10:27.000 puts them on payroll and they stay in work for 1:10:27.040 --> 1:10:32.040 the same place. Yeah, not that happened quite a bit. Man. 1:10:32.080 --> 1:10:37.959 That when it strange strange experience, it's a very strange experience, 1:10:37.960 --> 1:10:41.519 and it's easy to use that that fact to sort of, 1:10:41.880 --> 1:10:43.760 I think run off in the wrong direction. I've heard 1:10:43.760 --> 1:10:45.200 people say like, oh, well then there must have been 1:10:45.240 --> 1:10:48.120 a lot of slaves who were finally they love their master. 1:10:48.200 --> 1:10:50.280 It's like, well, no, it's like you live in in 1:10:50.360 --> 1:10:54.320 southern Mississippi, you know, you know, migrating to the north, 1:10:54.400 --> 1:10:56.760 which you know, a huge percentage of the black population 1:10:56.840 --> 1:10:59.960 does later. But in the eighteen sixties and eighteen seven, 1:11:00.080 --> 1:11:02.200 this is where we live. This is where home and 1:11:02.240 --> 1:11:04.200 family is, you know, this is this is where I'm at. 1:11:04.320 --> 1:11:06.599 So you know, I've got to just make the best 1:11:06.920 --> 1:11:08.840 I can and if my best option is I'm gonna 1:11:08.880 --> 1:11:10.600 go back to work for the same guy, you know, 1:11:10.680 --> 1:11:12.800 then I will. But the problem was with that, with 1:11:12.840 --> 1:11:16.439 that contract system that forced by the federal government is uh, 1:11:16.600 --> 1:11:18.840 former slavelwers didn't have any money because of the war 1:11:19.000 --> 1:11:21.439 just you know, wrecked the South, and then former slaves 1:11:21.680 --> 1:11:23.880 by and large would rather not be forced to go 1:11:23.920 --> 1:11:25.880 back to work for the same people that they wanted. 1:11:26.040 --> 1:11:29.439 They wanted more freedom. So that contract system kind of 1:11:29.479 --> 1:11:31.720 limped along for a few years with everybody hating it. 1:11:31.920 --> 1:11:35.840 The established like a minimum wage equivalent. Yeah, I don't 1:11:35.840 --> 1:11:37.240 I don't know much about that, but I know the 1:11:37.280 --> 1:11:41.240 individual states did that because there were you know, the 1:11:41.240 --> 1:11:46.320 South was divided into military districts. Yeah, there was sort 1:11:46.360 --> 1:11:49.200 of a kind of a general thought about that and 1:11:49.320 --> 1:11:50.760 to get to get to get back to the to 1:11:50.880 --> 1:11:55.240 the hunting and fishing question. Um, the sort of the 1:11:55.320 --> 1:11:59.880 solution that emerged to this contract problem was the sharecropping system, 1:12:00.160 --> 1:12:02.080 right people. You know, people always talk about how bad 1:12:02.080 --> 1:12:03.960 share cropping wasn't it was, And you could argue that 1:12:03.960 --> 1:12:06.280 it wrecked the Southern economy by the ninet fifties, But 1:12:06.640 --> 1:12:09.600 at the time it came out, it was a great compromise, Like, oh, 1:12:09.760 --> 1:12:12.720 so I don't have to work when you say, and 1:12:12.880 --> 1:12:14.519 I can pull my wife out of the field if 1:12:14.520 --> 1:12:17.559 I want to, and I control what I grow and 1:12:17.600 --> 1:12:19.439 when I grow it, and I can sell it, and 1:12:19.479 --> 1:12:21.040 I can keep a lot of the money. Great, and 1:12:21.080 --> 1:12:23.600 then the master's like, oh so I'll give you the 1:12:23.600 --> 1:12:26.000 tools and you can work the land and you give 1:12:26.000 --> 1:12:28.759 me a cut of it. Okay, that sounds fine, that's 1:12:28.800 --> 1:12:31.080 a good description. But just like very quickly hit like 1:12:31.120 --> 1:12:35.320 what sharecropping is. So basically behind sharecropping is you know, 1:12:35.520 --> 1:12:37.800 so if I'm a landowner and I don't have the 1:12:37.880 --> 1:12:41.639 capital to pay wages to workers, what I can do 1:12:41.880 --> 1:12:44.000 is I can say Okay, look, I'm gonna break my 1:12:44.000 --> 1:12:48.240 my my farm up into ten different parcels. I'm going 1:12:48.280 --> 1:12:51.439 to sign a contract with ten different families and they'll 1:12:51.479 --> 1:12:55.400 work those parts of my acreage and uh in exchange 1:12:55.400 --> 1:12:58.400 for a share of the crop. So you know, whether 1:12:58.439 --> 1:13:00.160 it was you know, a quarter or a third or 1:13:00.160 --> 1:13:04.120 whatever the individual contract was, so like the landowner gets 1:13:04.120 --> 1:13:07.840 a third. It depended. Usually usually it was it was 1:13:07.880 --> 1:13:11.559 the landowner, um. And the idea was, I'm gonna front 1:13:11.560 --> 1:13:15.360 you all the tools, equipment, livestock, whatever you need, and 1:13:15.360 --> 1:13:17.000 then at the end of the season, sell the crop, 1:13:17.280 --> 1:13:20.160 pay me back out of the profits. I keep my proceeds, 1:13:20.200 --> 1:13:24.200 Your keep your proceeds. Everybody's happy. And former slaves thought, well, 1:13:24.200 --> 1:13:25.720 that sounds great because what I'll do is I'll save 1:13:25.800 --> 1:13:28.160 money up a year to year and then eventually I'll 1:13:28.160 --> 1:13:30.960 buy my own land. And then you know, American dream 1:13:31.080 --> 1:13:35.120 um and about of of former slaves managed to acquire 1:13:35.160 --> 1:13:37.760 their own land, which is not a great percentage. The 1:13:37.800 --> 1:13:40.920 problem is, uh, that's a good system. When it's a 1:13:40.960 --> 1:13:47.000 good year, prices are high, there's no bowlwevil um, you know, 1:13:47.120 --> 1:13:50.000 there's no drought, you know whatever. But years where there's 1:13:50.160 --> 1:13:54.599 bad prices, bad weather, bad crop yield for some reason, Uh, 1:13:54.640 --> 1:13:56.479 you're not gonna make enough money even to pay back 1:13:56.520 --> 1:13:58.559 what you owe. So you wind up seeing this kind 1:13:58.560 --> 1:14:01.400 of cycle of perpetual debt and it winds up being 1:14:01.400 --> 1:14:06.720 a disastrous economic system. But for everybody involved, landowners weren't 1:14:06.720 --> 1:14:10.200 getting rich. Now, landowners saw you know, really really valuable land, 1:14:11.640 --> 1:14:14.080 especially the really the real story here is the the 1:14:14.120 --> 1:14:16.920 international cotton market. You know, you start to see cotton 1:14:16.960 --> 1:14:18.800 from India and a few other places come on the 1:14:18.800 --> 1:14:20.760 market in the late nineteenth century, and prices just go 1:14:20.840 --> 1:14:23.599 on the toilet, and pretty soon the economy the South 1:14:23.720 --> 1:14:27.720 isn't is in shambles. But we still see, you know, 1:14:27.880 --> 1:14:30.720 former slave owners that don't want to pay wages. They 1:14:30.800 --> 1:14:33.080 just I'm not acknowledging this. I don't want to pay 1:14:33.160 --> 1:14:35.559 money to these these guys. This isn't right, this isn't 1:14:35.560 --> 1:14:37.879 the way it used to be. And then former slaves, 1:14:38.280 --> 1:14:41.000 uh still wanted that freedom. So even though the system 1:14:41.040 --> 1:14:43.720 was inefficient, from the former slaves point of view, beat 1:14:43.760 --> 1:14:45.800 the hell out of slavery. And then from the former 1:14:45.800 --> 1:14:47.800 master's point of at least you weren't shelling out, you know, 1:14:47.880 --> 1:14:50.880 hard cash to your laborers. So it was a share 1:14:50.960 --> 1:14:53.040 was a system that was supposed to be a really 1:14:53.080 --> 1:14:55.160 good thing for the South, but it didn't work out 1:14:55.200 --> 1:15:01.479 that way. And then they in your book you described 1:15:01.560 --> 1:15:06.880 this this thing that becomes like a very articulated problem. Um, 1:15:06.880 --> 1:15:09.519 and there's magazine articles written about how to deal with 1:15:09.560 --> 1:15:20.200 the problem. But people start landowners start pointing fingers at things, conditions, behaviors, 1:15:20.520 --> 1:15:25.360 activities that are enabling people to not come work. Yeah, 1:15:25.439 --> 1:15:30.200 and among these is this propensity for like going out 1:15:30.240 --> 1:15:34.840 and shooting your own food. Like that's a problem because 1:15:34.840 --> 1:15:37.280 if they weren't doing that, then they'd be more obligated 1:15:37.320 --> 1:15:40.240 to come work for me. Absolutely, you know. Um, the 1:15:40.760 --> 1:15:42.760 title of the last chapter of the book, the one 1:15:42.800 --> 1:15:45.880 about the conservation, which I guess we get to, but um, 1:15:46.200 --> 1:15:48.240 the title of that last chapter is when he should 1:15:48.280 --> 1:15:50.960 be between the plow handles, which basically you know that 1:15:51.000 --> 1:15:53.720 there's so many you know, mentions I came across in 1:15:53.760 --> 1:15:57.479 sporting magazines and legal debates and things like that, you know, 1:15:57.640 --> 1:16:00.479 really pointing it at you know, self subsistence activities. There 1:16:00.520 --> 1:16:02.240 is a real problem. You're like, hey, if this guy 1:16:02.280 --> 1:16:05.240 can can feed himself and his family without working, for me, 1:16:05.320 --> 1:16:07.519 what kind of leverage does that give me? So I 1:16:07.560 --> 1:16:11.160 need I need more control. And uh, it's also eventually 1:16:11.160 --> 1:16:14.160 going to provide a pretty handy kind of cover for 1:16:14.200 --> 1:16:18.400 convincing reluctant Southerners to embrace conservation laws. We're not really 1:16:18.400 --> 1:16:21.479 going after you, we're going after former slaves because they're 1:16:21.479 --> 1:16:24.360 the ones that we're concerned about. So, you know it 1:16:24.439 --> 1:16:26.000 also and this is maybe too much at once here. 1:16:26.200 --> 1:16:28.320 But the other thing that that's that's really interesting to 1:16:28.360 --> 1:16:31.600 me about that that transition, immediate transition from slavery to 1:16:31.680 --> 1:16:35.720 freedom is um, you know, slaves, you know, reliance on 1:16:35.760 --> 1:16:39.839 small game, on whatever method worked on you know, uh 1:16:39.880 --> 1:16:44.520 effective you know, hunting and fishing. Uh. That was understood 1:16:44.560 --> 1:16:47.200 at the time by white observers like, yeah, well they're slaves. 1:16:47.200 --> 1:16:49.280 They they're they're limited in what they can do and 1:16:49.400 --> 1:16:51.559 that's the stuff they hunt and you know, they make 1:16:51.600 --> 1:16:53.639 the most of it. And then some of those same 1:16:53.680 --> 1:16:57.040 observers when they're writing in the post emancipation period, it's 1:16:57.080 --> 1:17:02.000 no longer well slaves privileged practical sport methods. It's all Africans. 1:17:02.040 --> 1:17:05.479 They're just by design they're incapable of appreciating the finer 1:17:05.520 --> 1:17:08.960 sporting traditions of the elites, so they do small game 1:17:09.000 --> 1:17:12.519 and they don't understand sporting methods and honor and things 1:17:12.560 --> 1:17:14.880 like that. So it becomes a handy way of kind 1:17:14.880 --> 1:17:19.080 of hanging some racial stereotypes. The thought is, it was 1:17:19.240 --> 1:17:24.880 at the time. If former slaves have complete freedom to 1:17:25.040 --> 1:17:28.160 just feed themselves, you know, however they want to, not 1:17:28.280 --> 1:17:32.519 only does that hurt our ability to control labor. But 1:17:32.760 --> 1:17:35.680 the interesting thing is, if I've got a really fantastic 1:17:36.600 --> 1:17:41.040 slave plantation huntsman, I can tell my friends about this guy, 1:17:41.120 --> 1:17:43.519 I can brag about it. I know we're gonna have 1:17:43.680 --> 1:17:46.400 great supplies of meat, and it's just gonna be a 1:17:46.439 --> 1:17:49.639 really good thing for the plantation. But I don't want 1:17:49.640 --> 1:17:52.960 to acknowledge this guy's sporting prowess after emancipation. It's like, 1:17:53.040 --> 1:17:57.040 after emancipation, here's a guy whose abilities threatened my operation, 1:17:57.680 --> 1:18:01.559 someone whose skill flies in the face of the emerging 1:18:01.640 --> 1:18:05.400 idea that white sportsmen are the best an African sportsman. 1:18:05.439 --> 1:18:09.800 African American sportsmen are a level lower. So if you 1:18:09.800 --> 1:18:12.519 want to maintain the sort of white supremacy that's sort 1:18:12.560 --> 1:18:15.919 of emerging as the Jim Crow period, you know, begins, 1:18:15.960 --> 1:18:19.559 to deepen um. All of a sudden, the same activities 1:18:19.560 --> 1:18:21.960 that for some people weren't that really big of a problem, 1:18:22.000 --> 1:18:23.880 they're a big problem now because not only does it 1:18:23.880 --> 1:18:27.599 does it you know, the master slave relationship is gone 1:18:28.120 --> 1:18:32.720 because of because of emancipation and the methods that we 1:18:32.840 --> 1:18:36.559 used to celebrate slaves using, we are now seeing as 1:18:36.640 --> 1:18:39.519 as dangerous to the supply of game, which is eventually 1:18:39.560 --> 1:18:42.400 gonna be really bad for tourism because once the Southern 1:18:42.400 --> 1:18:45.240 economy goes down in the late eighteen eighties and nineties, 1:18:45.800 --> 1:18:48.840 tourism becomes their big they're big source of revenue. So 1:18:48.960 --> 1:18:53.519 there's what was sort of a quaint feature of the 1:18:53.560 --> 1:18:56.960 Antebellum period, Oh, loyal slaves out in the woods hunting 1:18:57.120 --> 1:19:01.720 because I allow it. After emancipation, independent people out in 1:19:01.720 --> 1:19:05.240 the woods making a living away from me, hunting in 1:19:05.320 --> 1:19:08.800 ways that I don't think are appropriate, and that could 1:19:08.800 --> 1:19:12.600 even be dangerous because you know, because of firearms. You know, 1:19:14.920 --> 1:19:17.559 I was just gonna ask I add a question related 1:19:17.600 --> 1:19:20.360 to that and just if you can explain it with that, 1:19:20.800 --> 1:19:25.160 because it was cool to write like before during Antimellon period, 1:19:25.280 --> 1:19:28.320 right to have like a slave, that was a great 1:19:28.360 --> 1:19:31.000 huntsman and you you talk about how when people would 1:19:31.040 --> 1:19:34.800 come in from other places, how that was part of 1:19:34.880 --> 1:19:38.280 the whole experience to go hunt in the South, which 1:19:38.320 --> 1:19:40.559 to be to hunt. But you but but it would 1:19:40.600 --> 1:19:45.120 include these black slaves. Did that Did that same feeling 1:19:45.479 --> 1:19:50.640 continue after emancipation, like for for just a general like 1:19:50.760 --> 1:19:55.200 hunting tourism industry. So it was like a double conundrum 1:19:55.280 --> 1:19:58.439 at that point, right, because they still wanted them for that, 1:19:58.600 --> 1:20:00.920 but again they didn't they would maybe have to start 1:20:00.920 --> 1:20:04.120 paying them or or do you get my question? I do, 1:20:04.360 --> 1:20:06.639 And it's a good one. So that the double conundrum issue, 1:20:06.720 --> 1:20:09.680 it's it's a really tricky one because you know, think 1:20:09.680 --> 1:20:12.559 about it from the point of view of a slave 1:20:12.600 --> 1:20:19.120 owner and you know, so you've got uh slaves working 1:20:19.160 --> 1:20:22.080 for you that are engaging in all of these activities, 1:20:22.280 --> 1:20:24.640 and you have no problem with it, right maybe you 1:20:24.680 --> 1:20:26.479 know some in some cases they did. They were masters 1:20:26.520 --> 1:20:28.120 who didn't want their slaves to hunt because they're not 1:20:28.200 --> 1:20:30.519 too much independence. I want them dependent on me. I 1:20:30.560 --> 1:20:33.320 don't want them out running around. But if you were 1:20:33.360 --> 1:20:36.639 a slave owner who said, um nah, I can't trust 1:20:36.640 --> 1:20:39.120 my slaves to go out and hunt and fish, somebody 1:20:39.200 --> 1:20:42.000 might say, why can't you trust your slaves? Are you 1:20:42.040 --> 1:20:44.080 a crappy slave owner? I mean, if you were a 1:20:44.080 --> 1:20:46.000 good master, you'd be able to let them do these 1:20:46.000 --> 1:20:48.320 things and it would be to your benefit. So there 1:20:48.360 --> 1:20:50.879 was almost this sense of you know, they're an extension 1:20:50.920 --> 1:20:54.759 of me, so it's okay, but that that that connection 1:20:54.840 --> 1:20:58.800 is broken by emancipation. And the interesting thing is it 1:20:58.840 --> 1:21:04.599 becomes more important after emancipation, is what I discovered because um, 1:21:04.600 --> 1:21:07.200 in the minds of saying northern tourists, you know, the 1:21:07.520 --> 1:21:11.840 Antebellum period doesn't really become the Antabellum period until you know, 1:21:12.000 --> 1:21:14.439 later in the nineteenth century when we start to get 1:21:14.439 --> 1:21:17.080 that sort of gone with the wind rose colored glasses, 1:21:17.360 --> 1:21:20.519 romantic notion of what the South used to be, and 1:21:20.560 --> 1:21:24.280 that was really appealing to northern visitors. You know, countries industrializing, 1:21:24.439 --> 1:21:28.960 changing rapidly. You know what's what's traditional in the country, Well, 1:21:29.080 --> 1:21:34.960 the Annabellum South, quaint plantations, women in fancy dresses, you know, 1:21:35.000 --> 1:21:39.120 all all those images exactly know, and part and parcel 1:21:39.200 --> 1:21:41.640 of that memory for a lot of Americans was the 1:21:41.640 --> 1:21:45.360 presence of people of color. So what what landowners in 1:21:45.360 --> 1:21:48.040 the South started to realize you know, after the Civil War, 1:21:48.360 --> 1:21:51.080 is the land is not very good in some spots 1:21:51.160 --> 1:21:54.599 here for plantation agriculture anymore. But we've got all these 1:21:54.600 --> 1:21:57.040 Northerners that want to come down here and consume the 1:21:57.080 --> 1:21:59.760 old South or at least yeah, they want to hunt, 1:21:59.800 --> 1:22:01.559 they wanna you know, they want to get out there 1:22:01.560 --> 1:22:04.400 and feel and feel like a Southerner of old. And 1:22:04.439 --> 1:22:06.760 from the white perspective back then, what better way to 1:22:06.800 --> 1:22:09.479 feel like a Southerner of old than to have black 1:22:09.560 --> 1:22:14.120 laborers attending you, just like white masters did before emancipation. 1:22:14.320 --> 1:22:17.479 So it was almost like recreating that scene, and it 1:22:17.600 --> 1:22:21.240 really became, you know, away for white Southerners who were 1:22:21.320 --> 1:22:25.120 especially former slaves, to to kind of convince themselves, Okay, 1:22:25.160 --> 1:22:28.559 the world is still right, it's still us here, we're 1:22:28.600 --> 1:22:32.439 still served by people of color, just like the old days. 1:22:33.080 --> 1:22:37.160 Um so, so they were just like at that point, 1:22:37.160 --> 1:22:43.320 did they become hired like help because it was post emancipation. Yeah, 1:22:43.400 --> 1:22:45.479 when when you started and then get and can on 1:22:45.560 --> 1:22:47.840 the on the heels of that can answer like what 1:22:47.880 --> 1:22:50.760 did it look like then? Did the African Americans like 1:22:50.840 --> 1:22:54.479 work as guides or were they like cooks or like 1:22:54.520 --> 1:22:56.519 how did it how what did that little scene look 1:22:56.520 --> 1:23:01.680 like when someone from the north came down to to Shoever, Well, 1:23:01.760 --> 1:23:03.640 that really started kind of in the eighteen seventies and 1:23:03.640 --> 1:23:06.960 eighteen eighties, and uh, you started to see the kind 1:23:06.960 --> 1:23:10.680 of the trickle of of visitors to the south that 1:23:10.720 --> 1:23:14.640 we're interested in going there specifically for sporting reasons. Uh, 1:23:14.720 --> 1:23:17.280 really turns into a flood. It's just a huge number 1:23:17.280 --> 1:23:19.800 of people start going there. And the reason that is 1:23:19.800 --> 1:23:23.240 is because as the farmland, especially rice, rice was one 1:23:23.280 --> 1:23:26.400 of the crops that was just becoming really difficult. Uh, 1:23:26.439 --> 1:23:30.480 and then coastal cotton was also becoming a tough sell. Um. 1:23:30.600 --> 1:23:33.280 So it hits some of these landowners. I bet we 1:23:33.320 --> 1:23:36.280 could sell our land to a developer who wants to, 1:23:36.520 --> 1:23:38.760 you know, make a tourist retreat out of this, or 1:23:38.760 --> 1:23:41.080 I could even run it myself as a as a 1:23:41.080 --> 1:23:43.800 as a sporting operation. And what they found is when 1:23:43.800 --> 1:23:47.759 these visitors started to come down, they expected black labors. 1:23:48.200 --> 1:23:51.240 That was the way to complete the scene. And so 1:23:51.320 --> 1:23:54.880 basically you name it. I mean you would have people 1:23:54.920 --> 1:23:58.600 of color on plantations to serve as cooks, guides, you know, 1:23:58.640 --> 1:24:01.040 kind of basic laborers. People carry the tents, people to 1:24:01.120 --> 1:24:04.120 carry the guns, people that manage the dogs right up 1:24:04.160 --> 1:24:06.800 into you know, the larger outfits would have, you know, 1:24:07.320 --> 1:24:10.719 choruses and performers of color that could entertain their guests 1:24:10.760 --> 1:24:13.519 while they were there. So it's almost like blackness was 1:24:13.520 --> 1:24:15.960 a big part of the scene. And I came across 1:24:16.439 --> 1:24:19.519 hundreds and hundreds of references and national sporting magazines that 1:24:19.520 --> 1:24:21.360 are basically like, oh man, you've got to go down 1:24:21.439 --> 1:24:25.120 to Mississippi. It's like eight thirty down there. It's amazing. 1:24:25.640 --> 1:24:28.439 So you can really see the racism and the sort 1:24:28.479 --> 1:24:32.320 of racial attitudes alive and well. And that was something 1:24:32.400 --> 1:24:34.360 else that surprised me when I switched to the post 1:24:34.520 --> 1:24:37.559 emancipation period. I didn't realize how much race would be 1:24:37.600 --> 1:24:41.240 discussed in national public Incredible. It's one of these that 1:24:41.280 --> 1:24:43.160 blew my mind about it. And like, if you're listening 1:24:43.240 --> 1:24:44.840 to us talking about this, you got to understand that 1:24:44.840 --> 1:24:46.800 when you go read the book, it's not like he's 1:24:47.320 --> 1:24:52.360 it's not like Scott the author is drawing wild conclusions. 1:24:52.360 --> 1:24:55.200 I mean, it's all it's documented. It's like all laid 1:24:55.240 --> 1:24:57.719 out quote for quote for quote, like what people said, 1:24:57.800 --> 1:25:01.000 how things were advertised, how they described your experiences, what 1:25:01.120 --> 1:25:06.679 the articles wrote about it is amazing. Um, it's funny 1:25:06.800 --> 1:25:10.880 you you wouldn't now, you wouldn't be able to read 1:25:10.920 --> 1:25:16.920 out loud newspaper articles because they used a certain language. 1:25:17.960 --> 1:25:23.160 It was just talked about blatantly, like you always kind 1:25:23.200 --> 1:25:26.000 of can't believe what you're reading when you read some 1:25:26.040 --> 1:25:30.240 people's attitudes total the human beings that they decided was 1:25:30.280 --> 1:25:32.240 fit to write in a letter to the editor, to 1:25:32.280 --> 1:25:36.320 the hunting and fishing bag and just say insane like 1:25:36.360 --> 1:25:39.800 not even you shouldn't call the saning, just say blatantly, 1:25:40.760 --> 1:25:46.439 like blatant, horrific racist stuff in a letter to the editor, 1:25:47.439 --> 1:25:50.400 pointing the finger at certain individuals who don't conform to 1:25:51.600 --> 1:26:03.320 whatever kind of hunting and fishing standards ahead. Another thing, 1:26:03.560 --> 1:26:06.320 and you actually bring this up, is people struggling with 1:26:06.720 --> 1:26:10.639 to just the pro wess of some former slaves who 1:26:10.640 --> 1:26:12.240 are who are They would admit like this guy's the 1:26:12.240 --> 1:26:16.920 best hunter ever, which which is okay to say in 1:26:16.920 --> 1:26:20.760 the Annabellum period. Yeah, or anyway, just got like, oh man, 1:26:20.880 --> 1:26:22.880 this guy is really something to watch in the woods 1:26:22.920 --> 1:26:25.800 and always knows where the game is. But at the 1:26:25.880 --> 1:26:28.800 end of the day, he's a black guy. Yeah, you know, 1:26:28.920 --> 1:26:30.479 it was like there's like they just come out and 1:26:30.560 --> 1:26:32.439 like kind of like balance it out. They want to 1:26:32.439 --> 1:26:35.120 like there's a there's an element of praise and then 1:26:35.120 --> 1:26:38.040 there's an element of like context. Yeah, and then I 1:26:38.960 --> 1:26:41.360 you see people just struggle with it. Yeah, my my, 1:26:41.960 --> 1:26:44.599 so real quick. There's there's two two little episodes. I'll mention. 1:26:44.680 --> 1:26:47.200 One is on the first thing you mentioned about these 1:26:47.280 --> 1:26:49.560 letters to the editors of sporting magazines. There was a 1:26:50.000 --> 1:26:52.960 really well known uh sportsman in the nineteenth century named 1:26:52.960 --> 1:26:55.479 Emerson Huff. I think it's pronounced tough for how I'm 1:26:55.479 --> 1:26:57.800 not sure which one, but he's from Chicago, and he 1:26:57.840 --> 1:27:01.439 wrote pretty frequently to to Forest and Stream and Uh. 1:27:01.520 --> 1:27:05.000 He was writing about his thoughts on the very best 1:27:05.040 --> 1:27:08.240 place to go to to hunt and he said, you know, 1:27:08.320 --> 1:27:10.240 for my money, you got to go to the South. 1:27:10.640 --> 1:27:13.439 And he talked about the game and the conditions and 1:27:13.439 --> 1:27:15.479 the sort of the technical stuff. But then he said, 1:27:15.479 --> 1:27:17.240 and you know the best thing about it is there 1:27:17.240 --> 1:27:20.200 are all these former slaves, he said, negroes, with all 1:27:20.240 --> 1:27:24.960 his negroes, and they're great, and my god, they're incredible 1:27:24.960 --> 1:27:29.120 servants because that's you know, that's their their history and uh, 1:27:29.120 --> 1:27:31.400 it's this the best. You go down there and they 1:27:31.439 --> 1:27:35.280 do whatever you say, and it's just the most amazing experience. 1:27:35.320 --> 1:27:37.840 You feel so served and you feel like a king. 1:27:38.520 --> 1:27:41.520 And then he wrapped up his editorial by saying, um, 1:27:41.560 --> 1:27:44.280 you know, if I could have one of the fondest 1:27:44.320 --> 1:27:46.880 wishes of my heart fulfilled, and I'm quoting somehow the 1:27:46.920 --> 1:27:48.400 quotes in my head, if I could have one of 1:27:48.400 --> 1:27:51.919 the fondest wishes of my heart fulfilled, I would expert 1:27:52.040 --> 1:27:56.240 export four thirds of Chicago negroes. And I wouldn't send 1:27:56.280 --> 1:27:59.800 them to Liberia either. In other words, I'd love to 1:27:59.800 --> 1:28:02.080 set them back down to the South where they still 1:28:02.120 --> 1:28:07.080 know about white supremacy and hierarchy and in servitude. And 1:28:07.240 --> 1:28:10.840 that sort of praising of of the old South was 1:28:11.000 --> 1:28:14.280 really common in sporting publications nationally. Was a huge part 1:28:14.280 --> 1:28:16.760 of the draw. And they're they're hu Kail and Deer, right. 1:28:17.120 --> 1:28:18.960 Quail and Deer were two were two of the big ones. 1:28:19.479 --> 1:28:21.639 Black Bear in the Deep South was a big one. 1:28:21.840 --> 1:28:23.920 But that was you know, that was a big money 1:28:24.280 --> 1:28:26.559 you know, usually the the the elite elites were the 1:28:26.560 --> 1:28:29.599 ones who went on big excursions for Black Bear. But uh, yeah, 1:28:29.680 --> 1:28:31.280 Quail and and deer were sort of the big ones 1:28:31.479 --> 1:28:35.400 explain the gun rights issue back then, because um, the 1:28:35.439 --> 1:28:40.760 Second Amendment was well understood, but man was not applied uniformly, No, 1:28:40.960 --> 1:28:42.479 not at all, and that's what they really want, you know, 1:28:42.479 --> 1:28:44.360 really one of the one of the big you know, 1:28:44.360 --> 1:28:45.880 one of the big sticking points, you know, as you 1:28:45.920 --> 1:28:50.479 could imagine, because when you start to get you know, 1:28:50.560 --> 1:28:54.400 there's just this big tension that emerges right after emancipation 1:28:54.439 --> 1:28:56.960 in the South. So we started to see the emergence 1:28:57.000 --> 1:29:01.240 of this really popular resort tourism based on on hunting 1:29:01.240 --> 1:29:04.519 and fishing, particularly hunting in the South, and that's making 1:29:04.560 --> 1:29:06.760 a lot of money for this for Southern landowners and 1:29:06.800 --> 1:29:10.240 Southern you know, proprietors, and that really kind of put 1:29:10.280 --> 1:29:12.639 certain demands on them. One is to make sure there's 1:29:12.640 --> 1:29:15.040 an available supply of black labor to satisfy, you know, 1:29:15.120 --> 1:29:18.680 the image the public wants. The other thing is we've 1:29:18.680 --> 1:29:21.360 got to protect this play game because if if this 1:29:21.439 --> 1:29:23.600 kind of tourism is going to be where our livelihood 1:29:23.600 --> 1:29:26.200 comes from for the foreseeable future, we've got to protect it. 1:29:26.720 --> 1:29:30.040 So Southern Southern started talking about the need for conservation 1:29:30.120 --> 1:29:32.880 laws and the need for you know, state licensing or 1:29:32.880 --> 1:29:36.360 bag limits or you know, restrictions on guns, things like that, 1:29:36.880 --> 1:29:42.400 and most average Southerners, especially non elites, were like, hell, no, 1:29:42.400 --> 1:29:44.880 no way, we want no part of this, and there 1:29:44.960 --> 1:29:48.479 was massive resistance to it. So conservation in the South 1:29:48.600 --> 1:29:51.160 lags behind really the whole rest of the country. You're saying, 1:29:51.280 --> 1:29:56.439 so just make sure poor like poor white Southerners were 1:29:56.520 --> 1:30:02.280 not hip to game regulations being handed down from elite 1:30:02.800 --> 1:30:05.519 plantation operators. No, not at all, because you know, really 1:30:05.560 --> 1:30:08.439 the you know, removing race from the equation. For a second, 1:30:08.960 --> 1:30:13.360 when when hunting sort of arrives in the colonial period, uh, 1:30:13.360 --> 1:30:15.360 and not everyone hunted. I mean it was you know, 1:30:15.439 --> 1:30:17.479 everyone did it because it was a practical thing. But 1:30:17.600 --> 1:30:21.599 when elite Southerners, when plantation owners began to hunt, they 1:30:21.600 --> 1:30:24.920 were not shy or elusive at all about saying, we're 1:30:25.000 --> 1:30:28.719 doing this because aristocrats hunt. So we're gonna hunt fox, 1:30:28.760 --> 1:30:31.080 and we're gonna hunt stags, and we're gonna pretend like 1:30:31.120 --> 1:30:35.120 we're just old school European privileged nobles. That's how they 1:30:35.200 --> 1:30:38.920 set it up. And poor Southerners knew that, and they 1:30:38.960 --> 1:30:43.960 were deeply suspicious of any attempt to regulate. Uh, access 1:30:44.000 --> 1:30:47.280 to our methods for acquiring game, because they thought it 1:30:47.320 --> 1:30:50.800 was just old school, these elite guys trying to control things, 1:30:50.840 --> 1:30:54.320 so we don't get our fair share. So when the process, 1:30:54.400 --> 1:30:57.760 you know, in the early twentieth century, then becomes Okay, 1:30:57.800 --> 1:31:01.599 these pan the ass poor whites are existing these conservation laws. 1:31:01.600 --> 1:31:03.800 They just don't get it, why it's valuable and why 1:31:03.800 --> 1:31:06.800 it's necessary. So okay, fine, what can we do to 1:31:06.840 --> 1:31:10.880 convince them? Hey, everyone, here's the race car. Let's let's 1:31:10.880 --> 1:31:12.800 put this right in front of your face. You know, hey, 1:31:12.840 --> 1:31:15.280 if you want to control the black population, make sure 1:31:15.320 --> 1:31:17.400 they're in their place. Make sure they're not owning guns 1:31:17.400 --> 1:31:19.160 they shouldn't have. Make sure they're not killing all the 1:31:19.160 --> 1:31:21.960 big game that we want to kill. We need these conservations. 1:31:21.960 --> 1:31:24.720 We're not coming after you, we promise. So it was 1:31:24.760 --> 1:31:28.600 sort of using that how is that actually how is 1:31:28.600 --> 1:31:34.920 that actually articulated? Well, it's interesting, so articulated or enforced 1:31:35.040 --> 1:31:38.200 or it's it's rarely, if ever articulated in the law. 1:31:38.520 --> 1:31:40.439 And that's one of the interesting things about the whole 1:31:40.479 --> 1:31:44.920 post war period. Uh, you know, as Jim Crow becomes um, 1:31:44.960 --> 1:31:48.000 you know, more and more powerful, you know, for example, 1:31:48.040 --> 1:31:52.799 by nine you know, African Americans are largely disfranchised across 1:31:52.800 --> 1:31:55.080 the South. Hardly any black people are voting because of 1:31:55.120 --> 1:31:58.880 the new state constitutions. But those new state constitutions don't 1:31:58.920 --> 1:32:02.599 say black people can't vote. They say you can't vote 1:32:02.600 --> 1:32:05.240 if your grandfather couldn't vote, or you have to pay 1:32:05.240 --> 1:32:07.519 a ten dollar poll text to vote, or a bunch 1:32:07.560 --> 1:32:10.720 of measures designed to keep black people from voting. And 1:32:10.720 --> 1:32:12.760 the same thing with the conservation laws. You're not going 1:32:12.800 --> 1:32:15.559 to see. Um, you know, you have to pay ten 1:32:15.600 --> 1:32:18.840 dollars to UH to buy an instate hunting permit now 1:32:19.479 --> 1:32:21.519 so we can keep people of color and check it 1:32:21.560 --> 1:32:25.000 basically just says ten dollar. You know, in state licensing 1:32:25.160 --> 1:32:27.800 with South Carolina nineteen o six or whatever past a 1:32:27.840 --> 1:32:31.320 ten dollar licensing fee. And I'm sorry it was a 1:32:31.360 --> 1:32:34.479 dollar for a dollar for residents, ten dollars for non residents. 1:32:34.560 --> 1:32:36.960 That's what it was. And they didn't mention race at 1:32:36.960 --> 1:32:38.360 all in the law. But it would be a simple 1:32:38.400 --> 1:32:41.680 matter of Okay, you gotta go buy your permit, and 1:32:41.720 --> 1:32:43.639 then a white person shows up to buy the permit 1:32:43.640 --> 1:32:46.760 and they gotta worry about it, or or they're out 1:32:46.760 --> 1:32:49.080 in the woods and uh, they come across a person 1:32:49.120 --> 1:32:51.040 of color doesn't have a permit, Well, I'm gonna find them, 1:32:51.120 --> 1:32:53.160 poor white guy or whatever. So it's sort of the 1:32:53.240 --> 1:32:57.000 enforcement where that the flexibility was there. But then it's 1:32:57.040 --> 1:33:00.320 funny because that might be the case and in terms 1:33:00.360 --> 1:33:02.920 of how it's codified, like how it's actually spelled out 1:33:02.960 --> 1:33:05.519 the law. But then, as you demonstrate in your book 1:33:05.520 --> 1:33:08.400 with Just With again, people in their own voices giving 1:33:08.439 --> 1:33:12.160 their own perspectives. At the same time, it's being articulated 1:33:12.840 --> 1:33:17.800 in public opinion very differently, very explicitly. Yeah, absolutely, and 1:33:17.960 --> 1:33:21.880 like they're explicit, like what the people are explicit about 1:33:21.920 --> 1:33:25.000 what they're trying to accomplish. Yeah, when you know the 1:33:25.080 --> 1:33:27.519 rules they draft aren't explicit, but you look at like 1:33:27.520 --> 1:33:29.639 the people pushing for it, and they make no bones 1:33:29.640 --> 1:33:32.200 about it what they want to see happen. You know. 1:33:32.320 --> 1:33:35.400 South Carolina is a good example. I'm drawing. I want 1:33:35.400 --> 1:33:38.880 to say it was Richardson was his last name, anyway, 1:33:38.920 --> 1:33:40.960 he was he was chief game warden for South Carolina. 1:33:41.080 --> 1:33:45.320 This is really early twentieth century and basically he's on 1:33:45.560 --> 1:33:48.160 a pr campaign. He's traveling across the state speaking at 1:33:48.200 --> 1:33:52.360 farmers clubs and sportsmen organizations talking about this new licensing 1:33:52.439 --> 1:33:55.360 system and some of these new laws. And even though 1:33:55.360 --> 1:33:57.519 the law itself doesn't say it, you don't find those 1:33:58.120 --> 1:34:01.040 descriptions and any kind of official government application. But I 1:34:01.080 --> 1:34:03.599 have some transcripts that I quote in the book from 1:34:03.600 --> 1:34:06.160 some of those speeches he gives, and he explicitly says, 1:34:06.200 --> 1:34:08.519 you know, look, we want to get guns out of 1:34:08.520 --> 1:34:11.400 the hands of former slaves, and these kind of laws 1:34:11.479 --> 1:34:12.680 is kind of the only way we can do it 1:34:12.760 --> 1:34:15.960 that looks remotely constitutional. So help us out here, folks, 1:34:16.000 --> 1:34:19.320 we gotta play the game. It was really obvious when 1:34:19.320 --> 1:34:21.519 it was spoken, because you know, and the reason they 1:34:21.560 --> 1:34:23.120 didn't bother putting it and they didn't want to put 1:34:23.120 --> 1:34:25.799 it in the laws is the sort of big picture 1:34:25.920 --> 1:34:30.280 fear that hung over all Southerners back then as Jim 1:34:30.320 --> 1:34:32.960 Crow was emerging, is that the federal government would come back. 1:34:33.400 --> 1:34:36.519 You know, when reconstruction ended, in military rule ended, and 1:34:36.640 --> 1:34:38.400 this you know, the North pulled out of the South 1:34:38.479 --> 1:34:41.720 and states were given control back of their individual operations. 1:34:42.360 --> 1:34:44.360 You know that the the Senatement was basically, Okay, let's 1:34:44.400 --> 1:34:47.920 let's find a comfortable level of control that we can 1:34:47.960 --> 1:34:51.040 assert over people of color in a way that doesn't 1:34:51.120 --> 1:34:53.920 risk the federal government getting back involved in we don't 1:34:53.920 --> 1:34:56.120 want them in the civil rights business. And it worked 1:34:56.400 --> 1:34:59.840 right because the federal government sends troops, you know, in 1:35:00.000 --> 1:35:02.080 the South with a civil war, and they withdraw in 1:35:02.120 --> 1:35:05.200 eighteen seventy seven. Federal troops don't go to the South 1:35:05.280 --> 1:35:09.360 to enforce black civil rights again until nineteen fifty five 1:35:09.560 --> 1:35:11.880 with Central High School and Little Rock when they integrated. 1:35:12.520 --> 1:35:15.760 Uh So they were trying to to get what they 1:35:15.840 --> 1:35:18.400 wanted without being too overt about it. At the local level, 1:35:18.600 --> 1:35:20.719 they were just you know what this is about, please 1:35:20.760 --> 1:35:22.840 support this, and even that it was a tough sell. 1:35:23.120 --> 1:35:25.679 I mean it was. I thought about doing another book 1:35:25.760 --> 1:35:29.040 on just the conservation movement in the South. You still will, 1:35:29.439 --> 1:35:32.080 but um, that's kind That's where my next question goes, 1:35:33.040 --> 1:35:35.360 because there's a thing I feel like you don't not 1:35:35.439 --> 1:35:38.960 that you don't get it right, but I feel like 1:35:39.000 --> 1:35:43.360 you you didn't like accentuated enough. And and he already 1:35:43.360 --> 1:35:45.720 told you I didn't read it in its entirety, but 1:35:45.840 --> 1:35:48.400 did a thorough like you know, so maybe you'll just 1:35:48.400 --> 1:35:50.280 prove me. Hopefully it'll just prove me that I'm wrong. 1:35:51.320 --> 1:35:54.519 Is it the same conversations though, or when you get 1:35:54.560 --> 1:36:01.880 into the early the same conversations even outside of say 1:36:01.880 --> 1:36:05.600 that better, the same conversations about certain hunting practices, the 1:36:05.680 --> 1:36:10.120 same conversations about commercial market hunting, the same conversations about 1:36:10.160 --> 1:36:14.639 bag limits, the same conversations about netting game are all 1:36:14.720 --> 1:36:19.000 happening in the North, where there is not a master 1:36:19.200 --> 1:36:25.080 slave history. Right, But it's simply people like Roosevelt. And sure, 1:36:25.320 --> 1:36:28.360 you know, I'm not aware of it. There's no doubt 1:36:28.400 --> 1:36:31.800 it exists that Roosevelt probably had as someone to lie 1:36:31.840 --> 1:36:34.880 when he was alive, probably had racist sentiments like I'm 1:36:35.200 --> 1:36:39.640 sure there's probably books written about it. But he was 1:36:40.439 --> 1:36:43.680 from a hunting perspective, and there here's a celebrated conservation 1:36:43.760 --> 1:36:47.120 figure from a hunting perspective. He's like, if we're going 1:36:47.160 --> 1:36:50.000 to continue to hunt into the future, if it's gonna 1:36:50.000 --> 1:36:53.719 be a thing, then we need to put up real 1:36:54.120 --> 1:37:00.760 serious guardrails, and we're gonna introduce all kinds of stuff, licenses, seasons, 1:37:00.960 --> 1:37:05.559 ban on commercial sale of wild game, right, and really 1:37:05.600 --> 1:37:08.720 clamped down or would kiss the whole thing about it. 1:37:10.040 --> 1:37:13.800 So I don't know, like, and maybe maybe you can 1:37:14.400 --> 1:37:16.800 tell me that you did. I don't know that if 1:37:16.800 --> 1:37:20.800 you're accurately kind of like divorcing that that that it 1:37:20.840 --> 1:37:25.360 perhaps wasn't entirely like a racially motivated thing, that it 1:37:25.400 --> 1:37:27.559 was coming from a legitimate place. That we have to 1:37:27.560 --> 1:37:30.080 stop the bleeding. Oh for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not 1:37:30.120 --> 1:37:32.040 trying to see in the book Eater, I don't do this. 1:37:32.080 --> 1:37:34.600 I'm not trying to suggest that conservation was completely a 1:37:34.680 --> 1:37:37.880 racial thing, but rather than in the South, there was 1:37:37.920 --> 1:37:41.519 this racial dimension, particularly in in in the selling it 1:37:41.600 --> 1:37:45.240 to the general public. Yeah, you make that and again 1:37:46.080 --> 1:37:51.360 you make that case clear just through letting people say 1:37:51.640 --> 1:37:54.599 say their own thing, like you put down here's what's said, 1:37:54.720 --> 1:37:59.599 here's what said, here's what said, Like you lay that out. Um, 1:37:59.640 --> 1:38:01.479 the more of Asia was there, but it's just like 1:38:01.520 --> 1:38:04.599 I look, I'm like, man, but the exact same things 1:38:04.640 --> 1:38:08.040 were elsewhere, but they just weren't selling it that way. Well, 1:38:08.080 --> 1:38:10.439 it's interesting. It's interesting you say that though, because and 1:38:10.680 --> 1:38:13.559 interesting full disclosure. I'll just you know, just to get 1:38:13.560 --> 1:38:15.400 it down. I don't want this to be a freezer 1:38:15.439 --> 1:38:19.160 full of fish issue. I am a big fan of 1:38:19.160 --> 1:38:21.680 a conservation model. I think the conservation system that we 1:38:21.720 --> 1:38:23.880 developed in that period is one of the great achievements 1:38:23.920 --> 1:38:29.200 of the American system really is I really believe that. Um, 1:38:29.200 --> 1:38:31.040 this is side trip, but I mean, like, if I 1:38:31.080 --> 1:38:33.879 got to choose between a conservation model and a wallet 1:38:33.920 --> 1:38:37.160 off and nobody can touch at model, conservation models better 1:38:37.240 --> 1:38:40.360 just in my mind. Um, But what's interesting when you 1:38:40.400 --> 1:38:43.160 look at how conservation was sold in other parts of 1:38:43.160 --> 1:38:45.840 the country, there was a racial angle to it, but 1:38:45.920 --> 1:38:49.439 it wasn't African Americans. You know. I've read articles, you know, 1:38:49.479 --> 1:38:52.240 complaining about the need for tougher laws in the West, 1:38:52.280 --> 1:38:55.040 and they're talking about Native Americans that are abusing things 1:38:55.040 --> 1:38:58.000 and they're the reason we have to pass this. Yeah. 1:38:58.040 --> 1:39:02.280 In New York, Realy had episode with a mong hunter 1:39:02.360 --> 1:39:07.240 and I talked to him about, Um, just the conversations 1:39:07.280 --> 1:39:09.000 I've had with people where it's like, well, you know 1:39:09.000 --> 1:39:12.840 who kills all the game? It's among guys. Yeah, it was. 1:39:12.920 --> 1:39:15.000 It was it was European immigrants in New York State 1:39:15.160 --> 1:39:17.400 right up in the cat Skills. You know. I was like, oh, 1:39:17.479 --> 1:39:19.760 these immigrants are gone in all the game down and 1:39:20.120 --> 1:39:24.120 so it seemed like it was just people that were 1:39:24.200 --> 1:39:29.160 poorer than you. Um, we're by death if they're poorer 1:39:29.160 --> 1:39:36.200 than you, by definition, they're more likely to be game poachers. 1:39:36.240 --> 1:39:39.680 Someone probably someone certainly thought you were a poacher, and 1:39:39.720 --> 1:39:42.160 then you thought the next guy down the line, he 1:39:42.360 --> 1:39:45.439 was the poacher. It was very class based. Oh yeah, 1:39:45.479 --> 1:39:48.640 and and that that is what what struck me initially, 1:39:48.960 --> 1:39:50.640 you know, leaving race out out of the equation for 1:39:50.680 --> 1:39:53.040 a second. When I first started reading all these sporting 1:39:53.040 --> 1:39:58.679 publications so intensely, I was amazed at the obvious class 1:39:58.760 --> 1:40:01.639 dimensions at work here and tension in the individual sporting 1:40:01.640 --> 1:40:04.400 put even like in Forest and Stream that was written 1:40:04.400 --> 1:40:06.840 about a lot like who does this thing really serve? 1:40:07.479 --> 1:40:10.439 If this is this about America and democracy and open access, 1:40:10.520 --> 1:40:13.120 in which case, hey, rich guy, you shouldn't always get 1:40:13.120 --> 1:40:16.400 the system you want. And then the elites would say, hey, 1:40:16.439 --> 1:40:18.720 if you want to preserve this system, you know, for 1:40:18.800 --> 1:40:21.800 future generations, we've got to start being more strict about this. 1:40:22.280 --> 1:40:24.040 And some of the people on the on the lower 1:40:24.040 --> 1:40:26.000 class end of things were like, na, we're just not 1:40:26.040 --> 1:40:28.439 going to buy that. And it seems like in different 1:40:28.439 --> 1:40:31.519 parts of the country they needed the little extra nudge 1:40:31.720 --> 1:40:34.200 from from the boogeyman. Right, if you're afraid of you 1:40:34.280 --> 1:40:36.439 live in the West, and Native Americans and your big nuisance. 1:40:36.479 --> 1:40:39.320 They're the problem. The Italian immigrants in New York. It's 1:40:39.520 --> 1:40:42.880 Hispanic immigrants in Arizona. It's an easy way of, you know, 1:40:42.920 --> 1:40:44.920 getting a little extra support for what you're trying to 1:40:44.960 --> 1:40:47.639 see by kind of racializing. That was pretty common, actually 1:40:48.400 --> 1:40:50.680 identifying the people that just don't get it. Yeah, and 1:40:50.680 --> 1:40:52.840 it does. It doesn't diminish, you know, the value of 1:40:52.880 --> 1:40:57.000 the conservation laws, um, but it just shows that, you know, 1:40:57.680 --> 1:41:00.400 who are the convenient scapegoats that are available. And definitely 1:41:00.439 --> 1:41:04.360 in the South, the main scapegoat. Uh, it was African Americans, 1:41:04.439 --> 1:41:07.640 especially because they had they had two argumentative tracks they 1:41:07.640 --> 1:41:09.280 could take with people that were you know, let's say 1:41:09.280 --> 1:41:11.840 I'm I'm a poor, poor white and I'm just not 1:41:11.960 --> 1:41:15.320 buying into this this licensing system. I could say, look, 1:41:15.439 --> 1:41:18.080 you know, they would say to me intern like, look, one, 1:41:18.800 --> 1:41:21.200 this is about control. We're trying to keep guns out 1:41:21.200 --> 1:41:23.000 of the hands of people of color, keep them working 1:41:23.040 --> 1:41:25.479 for us. And on the other hand, this is about 1:41:25.479 --> 1:41:28.559 protecting our new tourist economy. We have got to protect 1:41:28.600 --> 1:41:31.120 this because the region will collapse if we don't preserve this. 1:41:31.840 --> 1:41:34.120 So it was sort of a kind of a double whammy, 1:41:34.479 --> 1:41:36.519 and there was a reason to make sure that as 1:41:36.640 --> 1:41:39.760 much as possible. If African Americans are going to have 1:41:39.760 --> 1:41:43.000 a big place in the southern sporting field, it's got 1:41:43.000 --> 1:41:46.920 to be in a subordinate place, working for us, not independent. 1:41:47.000 --> 1:41:50.559 And if they are hunting and fishing independently, let's set 1:41:50.640 --> 1:41:53.639 up a system where they are limited to small game, 1:41:54.280 --> 1:41:56.240 we get rid of methods that they prefer that we 1:41:56.320 --> 1:41:59.120 don't like, and we control it as much as humanly possible. 1:41:59.120 --> 1:42:00.840 So again it goes back to that issue of how 1:42:00.920 --> 1:42:04.759 far away from the white observer are they they're working 1:42:04.800 --> 1:42:07.519 for me, or they're doing things I approve of, fine, 1:42:08.080 --> 1:42:10.479 but when they use it to avoid work, or whether 1:42:10.720 --> 1:42:13.200 you know, doing methods that don't approve of, then it's 1:42:13.200 --> 1:42:14.960 a problem. You don't want to area where the double 1:42:15.040 --> 1:42:18.800 standard I think uh came through real clear as you 1:42:18.880 --> 1:42:21.800 spend a little bit of time talking about. I think 1:42:21.800 --> 1:42:24.600 it was kind of more in the immediate post warriors 1:42:25.600 --> 1:42:28.840 do you'd have people who go out the swamps and 1:42:28.840 --> 1:42:32.800 basically set up camp encampment's families camped just living off 1:42:32.800 --> 1:42:35.680 the land. Man, you can imagine it'd be easy to 1:42:35.760 --> 1:42:39.360 romanticize that right. Often a swamp living off the land. 1:42:39.479 --> 1:42:43.400 But man, folks are not like that. Yeah. That was like, Holy, 1:42:44.200 --> 1:42:47.640 what does the world come into? Yeah, there were so 1:42:47.640 --> 1:42:51.919 many interesting uh visuals that came out of that research. 1:42:52.400 --> 1:42:54.639 You know, you might read about a very elaborate hunt 1:42:54.640 --> 1:42:57.439 that is essentially you know, a bunch of locals. They're 1:42:57.479 --> 1:43:00.559 not rich, they're just some Southern guys that like a hunt. 1:43:00.600 --> 1:43:03.680 So they hire a bunch of laborers and they go 1:43:03.760 --> 1:43:05.519 off into the woods for a week and they bring 1:43:05.600 --> 1:43:07.880 tents and you know, they live off the land, and 1:43:07.920 --> 1:43:09.360 you know, and they you know, they just they just 1:43:09.400 --> 1:43:11.760 do what they do. But then you hear these descriptions 1:43:11.800 --> 1:43:15.320 of these like massive hunting parties. I can't think of 1:43:15.320 --> 1:43:18.919 a guy's name, but the guy was a CEO of DuPont. 1:43:19.600 --> 1:43:21.880 He bought an island off of South Carolina just for 1:43:21.920 --> 1:43:24.640 the point the purpose of hunting, and you know, he 1:43:24.640 --> 1:43:27.519 would bring these giant retinues down there with them and 1:43:27.560 --> 1:43:29.800 they would head off, you know, head off into the 1:43:29.800 --> 1:43:32.800 woods and the black laborers would be carrying you know, 1:43:33.520 --> 1:43:37.519 everything you can know that you don't know that retinue. Yeah, 1:43:37.520 --> 1:43:39.960 so's it's a fancy word for like the your your 1:43:40.040 --> 1:43:45.639 your posse. Yeah, you're you're your entourage. That's the retinue. 1:43:45.720 --> 1:43:47.920 They would have called it a retinue because that was 1:43:48.000 --> 1:43:50.599 the fancy makes me sound like an aristocratic term they 1:43:50.600 --> 1:43:52.720 wanted to use. The more guys that are with me, 1:43:52.800 --> 1:43:55.639 the more people carrying my stuff, the more my hunting 1:43:55.680 --> 1:43:59.160 camp looks like my house, the more that means you know, 1:43:59.200 --> 1:44:02.840 I've made it. So it's sort of that, you know, 1:44:02.880 --> 1:44:05.240 sett it yourself up as an aristocrat kind of thing 1:44:05.280 --> 1:44:10.120 that visitors were so drawn to back then. Um, what 1:44:10.320 --> 1:44:12.960 what are there? I mean, there's a ton of miss 1:44:13.000 --> 1:44:17.519 because it's a big book, But are there where you're 1:44:17.520 --> 1:44:19.080 from where you're sitting right now? Are there questions you 1:44:19.080 --> 1:44:22.960 wish I'd ask you to explain various aspects of this book? Well, yeah, 1:44:23.040 --> 1:44:24.680 I think I think one that there's a couple of 1:44:24.680 --> 1:44:26.439 things that that I think would be good to talk about. 1:44:26.560 --> 1:44:31.720 So one is, um, what was you know, the pot Why? 1:44:31.800 --> 1:44:33.920 What I didn't mention yet was the was the positives? Right, 1:44:33.960 --> 1:44:37.720 So we're talking about, you know, the concerns that landowners 1:44:37.760 --> 1:44:39.960 had or the conservation has had, or you know, white 1:44:39.960 --> 1:44:41.960 Southerners in general had, and why they wanted to kind 1:44:41.960 --> 1:44:44.960 of restrict these practices. But on the other side of 1:44:44.960 --> 1:44:49.200 the equation is um the benefit, right, So it isn't 1:44:49.240 --> 1:44:53.400 like it's just I'm forced to work mission because you 1:44:53.400 --> 1:44:56.280 have some amazing stories of people getting established in business 1:44:56.320 --> 1:44:59.719 and stuff, and yeah, there's a there's a big benefit. 1:44:59.840 --> 1:45:03.240 So um. For one thing, it's it's a rare thing 1:45:03.400 --> 1:45:06.120 during the Jim Crow period for a person of color 1:45:06.200 --> 1:45:09.519 to have sort of a public way to demonstrate I'm 1:45:09.560 --> 1:45:11.640 better at something than a white person. And that was 1:45:11.680 --> 1:45:14.280 a no, no, can you tell people specifically what Jim 1:45:14.280 --> 1:45:16.280 Crow means? Sure? So Jim Crow is sort of the 1:45:16.280 --> 1:45:20.080 shorthand for segregation. Uh, these sort of both formal and 1:45:20.160 --> 1:45:23.400 informal laws and practices that popped up starting in the 1:45:23.439 --> 1:45:27.640 eighteen nineties that sort of governed black and white social interactions. 1:45:27.640 --> 1:45:29.320 And it was if you don't know much about the 1:45:29.360 --> 1:45:32.559 Jim Crow system, it's it's pretty mind blowing. Um. You know, 1:45:32.760 --> 1:45:35.840 you know the big picture stuff, you know, like you know, uh, 1:45:35.880 --> 1:45:39.160 you know, whites only water fountains and things like that 1:45:39.160 --> 1:45:41.040 that we think of most commonly. But then you know 1:45:41.280 --> 1:45:44.320 chain gangs and you know, lots and lots of strange 1:45:44.439 --> 1:45:47.680 social rules. You know, black person can't work at a 1:45:47.680 --> 1:45:49.880 shoe store that caters to white customers, because you don't 1:45:49.920 --> 1:45:53.640 want black people to work with white people's feet. Um, 1:45:53.680 --> 1:45:58.200 you know black barbers, you know generally uh would uh 1:45:58.360 --> 1:46:01.760 would have white customers, but the reverse usually wouldn't be true. 1:46:02.040 --> 1:46:03.479 Usually you have to have good to old black barber 1:46:03.479 --> 1:46:06.640 if if you were a black person. Yeah, and all 1:46:06.680 --> 1:46:09.200 that stuff segregated. So Jim Crow was basically just a 1:46:09.240 --> 1:46:11.600 way of making sure that everybody was was kept in 1:46:11.640 --> 1:46:14.720 their proper place. Was that a guy's name Jim Crow 1:46:14.920 --> 1:46:18.439 was was a minstrel performers. His name was Charles. His 1:46:18.560 --> 1:46:21.400 name Daddy Rice was that might be Charles Daddy ricen't remember. 1:46:21.520 --> 1:46:24.920 Daddy Rice was a famous minstrel performer in the twenties 1:46:24.920 --> 1:46:28.280 and eighteen thirties, and he became world famous, traveled the 1:46:28.320 --> 1:46:33.360 world by blacking his face in his hands, putting on rags, 1:46:33.560 --> 1:46:36.720 and then performing in ways that whites would have recognized 1:46:36.760 --> 1:46:40.639 as stereotypically slave. So he's a white guy, Yeah, white 1:46:40.640 --> 1:46:46.800 guy performing in hand. Yeah. That was the character's name, 1:46:46.840 --> 1:46:50.000 Jim Crow. And you know there's books published about this character, 1:46:50.120 --> 1:46:53.400 Jim Crow. It becomes this hugely popular thing, and then 1:46:54.040 --> 1:46:58.200 the interesting thing is that that's yes, somehow that I'm 1:46:58.240 --> 1:46:59.920 kind of like, I don't know, I was like Paul 1:47:00.000 --> 1:47:03.880 Fitition politicians from the time. You know, the basic idea is, um, 1:47:03.920 --> 1:47:07.040 you know, these this Jim Crow character is kind of 1:47:07.040 --> 1:47:12.680 based on the idea that people of color are childlike, stupid, uncivilized. 1:47:12.720 --> 1:47:14.880 I mean, it's very negative, very racist. You know that 1:47:14.960 --> 1:47:18.920 this this character and it fits what white audiences wanted 1:47:18.920 --> 1:47:22.040 to believe about people of color. Uh So it's kind 1:47:22.040 --> 1:47:26.040 of a character designed to show, uh, you know, this 1:47:26.120 --> 1:47:29.200 is what what we're dealing with here, folks. It sort 1:47:29.200 --> 1:47:31.640 of became an easy shorthand in the eight nineties. Well 1:47:31.680 --> 1:47:34.880 these laws designed to keep black people where they belong, 1:47:35.160 --> 1:47:37.479 let's call him Jim Crow laws. So that's sort of 1:47:37.640 --> 1:47:41.240 organically how it evolved. Yeah, and then you were going 1:47:41.240 --> 1:47:44.719 to get into and there was a handful of things 1:47:44.720 --> 1:47:49.599 you have in there of people that um, maybe established 1:47:49.600 --> 1:47:53.479 a fishing business, and then it became out of that 1:47:53.640 --> 1:47:57.280 like owned multiple vessels, bought land, established businesses, like people 1:47:57.280 --> 1:48:00.519 who had like real success stories. Yeah, there's great that 1:48:00.640 --> 1:48:03.120 came out of hunting and fishing that went on to 1:48:03.560 --> 1:48:07.160 be have generational impact. Yeah. I'll take about whole Collier 1:48:07.200 --> 1:48:09.519 in a minute. That that's my my my favorite individual 1:48:09.560 --> 1:48:12.479 person from the book, but my individual favorite story. It's 1:48:12.479 --> 1:48:15.280 not very long, but I just love this one. And 1:48:15.280 --> 1:48:19.440 this is the kind of freedom you could have with um, 1:48:19.479 --> 1:48:22.599 the kind of weird relationships that emerged in the post 1:48:22.640 --> 1:48:25.840 emancipation period, right Like, on the one hand, you know 1:48:26.720 --> 1:48:31.640 that your guides, your laborers are really amazing at this, 1:48:32.400 --> 1:48:34.840 but acknowledging that it's going to sort of threaten the 1:48:34.840 --> 1:48:37.599 white on top sort of white supremacy model that we 1:48:37.640 --> 1:48:40.160 have by then in the South. So there's this great 1:48:40.160 --> 1:48:43.360 story it came across where a guy from uh I 1:48:43.360 --> 1:48:47.599 think he's from Philadelphia, is out on a duck hunter, 1:48:47.680 --> 1:48:50.439 a quail hunt whatever it was, with with one black 1:48:50.439 --> 1:48:56.160 guide and they're they're, you know, scaring up birds and birds. 1:48:56.360 --> 1:49:01.439 You know, he's scared up alright, birds flushed, thank you? 1:49:01.960 --> 1:49:04.479 And uh, I know words like retinue, not words like flushed. 1:49:04.760 --> 1:49:08.160 Uh So birds are scared up. White guy jumps up, 1:49:08.400 --> 1:49:12.559 takes a shot, misses, the guide stands up, shoots it 1:49:12.600 --> 1:49:15.920 and says, good shot. They scare up another bird. The 1:49:15.920 --> 1:49:19.080 white guy misses. The guy's a great shot, sir. And 1:49:19.120 --> 1:49:20.920 then that went on. That went on the whole day, 1:49:21.400 --> 1:49:25.719 and then they're walking home and uh, the the guy 1:49:25.920 --> 1:49:29.280 was was talking about how how piste off this white 1:49:29.280 --> 1:49:31.479 guy was walking in front of him the whole time, 1:49:31.600 --> 1:49:33.439 knowing that he didn't do a very good job with 1:49:33.479 --> 1:49:37.240 those birds, and only imagining how pleased the guide must 1:49:37.240 --> 1:49:39.200 have been, thinking like, yeah, we both know that I'm 1:49:39.240 --> 1:49:40.960 better at this than you. But I can play the 1:49:40.960 --> 1:49:43.120 game if I have to. So I really like that 1:49:43.160 --> 1:49:45.640 one example because it was just a nice little leg 1:49:45.800 --> 1:49:47.400 I can. I can dig you a little bit in 1:49:47.439 --> 1:49:50.160 the way that I couldn't before, you know. But the 1:49:50.200 --> 1:49:51.920 one that the one that stands out, and it's just 1:49:51.960 --> 1:49:53.760 it's just one of the great stories of all time. 1:49:54.120 --> 1:49:55.720 And I'm not the first person to talk about Whole 1:49:55.720 --> 1:49:57.479 call Here. There's been a book written about him, and 1:49:57.520 --> 1:50:01.320 some children's books actually, but Whole call Here is I think, 1:50:01.920 --> 1:50:04.519 what I would say, the most famous sportsman in the South, 1:50:05.160 --> 1:50:07.840 probably of all time, unless he counts someone like Daniel 1:50:07.840 --> 1:50:09.719 Boone or you know some of those, some of those folks. 1:50:10.240 --> 1:50:13.440 But um, the whole Collier was a slave in Mississippi 1:50:13.760 --> 1:50:17.960 and his stories just absolutely incredible. Um before before he 1:50:18.040 --> 1:50:20.800 was he was a famous hunting guide. Um, he was 1:50:20.840 --> 1:50:24.679 a slave in Mississippi, and his master was nicknamed Colonel 1:50:24.840 --> 1:50:28.120 Howell Hines. And when the Hines family, you know, goes 1:50:28.160 --> 1:50:30.639 off to war, when the Civil War starts, they took 1:50:30.760 --> 1:50:34.040 whole collier with him as a servant. And he wound 1:50:34.120 --> 1:50:37.519 up working as a scout for whatever army outfit that 1:50:37.560 --> 1:50:40.479 his that his that his master belonged to, scouting against 1:50:40.479 --> 1:50:44.000 the Northern Army, against the Northern Army. And he yeah, 1:50:44.000 --> 1:50:46.800 and he is officially recognized by the Daughters of the 1:50:46.800 --> 1:50:51.080 Confederacy as a Confederate veteran. I mean, it's it's really interesting. 1:50:51.320 --> 1:50:56.000 And he continued after they and and that's the whole 1:50:56.080 --> 1:50:57.880 when you take a whole collier above and beyond the 1:50:57.920 --> 1:51:01.000 call of duty, he was he was loyal servant, and 1:51:01.000 --> 1:51:03.360 then he was a loyal soldier. And then when the 1:51:03.400 --> 1:51:06.400 war ended, he went to work on the Hines plantation 1:51:06.439 --> 1:51:09.880 as a sporting guide and was was so good that 1:51:09.880 --> 1:51:12.280 he's one of these ridiculous figures that you hear about 1:51:12.280 --> 1:51:15.960 his sporting uh prowess, and you think, really, did you 1:51:16.040 --> 1:51:19.120 really kill five hundred bears? That seems like a lot, 1:51:19.280 --> 1:51:22.200 you know, So he they're all these legends about him, 1:51:22.280 --> 1:51:25.400 and the reason he becomes so well known is because 1:51:25.479 --> 1:51:28.559 when Um the Roosevelt Hunts, as they were known, Roosevelt 1:51:28.640 --> 1:51:31.960 had these huge, two huge hunting excursions in the South 1:51:32.040 --> 1:51:34.639 and almost like nineteen o three, almost like nineteen o seven, 1:51:35.400 --> 1:51:38.080 when he contacted uh, some of his buddies down in 1:51:38.120 --> 1:51:39.559 the South, Hey, I want to do a really big, 1:51:39.560 --> 1:51:43.679 elaborate hunt. Put it together for me. They did what 1:51:43.680 --> 1:51:45.960 what we've talked about before. They got some guys that 1:51:46.040 --> 1:51:47.920 knew the best places to go, and they said, Okay, 1:51:47.960 --> 1:51:50.240 who's going to assemble the army of African Americans that 1:51:50.280 --> 1:51:52.880 we need to provide the setting the president needs and 1:51:52.920 --> 1:51:55.640 they tapped whole Callier to head the hunt. So he 1:51:55.720 --> 1:51:57.439 was he was the guy in charge of both of 1:51:57.479 --> 1:52:00.680 those Roosevelt hunts, and that the space ciphic story that 1:52:00.720 --> 1:52:04.920 makes him so famous is um apparently for four or 1:52:04.960 --> 1:52:07.839 five days this was one hunt was in the Louisian 1:52:07.920 --> 1:52:09.960 Cane Brakes and one was in the Yazoo Delta. I 1:52:09.960 --> 1:52:13.000 can't recall which one was which, but the first of 1:52:13.040 --> 1:52:15.640 the two, apparently whole Collier. They didn't have a lot 1:52:15.680 --> 1:52:17.760 of luck finding the bear because Roosevelt had dreamed of 1:52:17.760 --> 1:52:21.080 a Southern black bear forever, he said. So Collier apparently 1:52:21.120 --> 1:52:23.280 had gone off to do some scouting to see if 1:52:23.320 --> 1:52:27.920 they could switch locations. While he was gone, apparently some 1:52:28.000 --> 1:52:31.599 of the other guys had captured a black bear, which 1:52:31.640 --> 1:52:34.479 was weirdly common back then because people would capture bears 1:52:34.479 --> 1:52:36.320 and then they would use it for bear baiting, the 1:52:36.320 --> 1:52:40.360 grossest sport ever. We just get sick dogs on a 1:52:40.400 --> 1:52:42.200 bear and then bet on how many dogs it would take, 1:52:42.240 --> 1:52:44.800 you know, to kill it. Um. So they captured this 1:52:44.840 --> 1:52:47.880 black bear so Roosevelt could kill it, and Whole Collier 1:52:47.960 --> 1:52:49.760 got back to camp and he said, whoa you you 1:52:49.800 --> 1:52:51.960 can't this is a chained up animal. You can't shoot this. 1:52:51.960 --> 1:52:55.320 It's not sporting. And Roosevelt was, yeah, that's that's that's 1:52:55.320 --> 1:52:57.120 a great idea. That's not sporting. I'm not going to 1:52:57.200 --> 1:53:00.000 do it. So Rosebolt ordered that they released the Teddy bear, 1:53:00.000 --> 1:53:02.560 and that's the Teddy Bear incident. So it was it 1:53:02.600 --> 1:53:05.479 was Whole Collier that apparently told Roosevelt that he shouldn't 1:53:05.520 --> 1:53:09.040 kill the bear. So the cartoon of Teddy's Bear, uh 1:53:09.160 --> 1:53:12.040 comes from from Whole Collier that and then he sent 1:53:12.160 --> 1:53:14.960 he sent Collier some kind of heard at times, but 1:53:15.000 --> 1:53:17.960 I never knew that the guy that involved it was 1:53:17.960 --> 1:53:20.840 was I had that story. Uh well, yeah, you know, 1:53:20.880 --> 1:53:23.000 I never knew any I never knew anybody involved him 1:53:23.000 --> 1:53:25.800 besides Roosevelt. Right, yeah, well, you know, I guess what 1:53:26.000 --> 1:53:28.080 in the future if you come across kind of stories 1:53:28.120 --> 1:53:32.479 from from this time period, Um, you know, how often 1:53:32.479 --> 1:53:35.479 did they really go into discussions of the guys, whether 1:53:35.520 --> 1:53:37.840 they're white or black? Right? Usually just the guys, we're 1:53:37.920 --> 1:53:40.240 the ones that we talk about. And then you're not 1:53:40.280 --> 1:53:42.760 going to talk about your labors that much, especially if 1:53:42.800 --> 1:53:45.439 if there are people of color and um. In the 1:53:45.479 --> 1:53:49.120 aftermath of this hunt, Roosevelt was so grateful that he 1:53:49.160 --> 1:53:51.000 fired because later in the honey got his black Bear, 1:53:51.360 --> 1:53:54.320 and he was so grateful that he sent whole Collier 1:53:54.640 --> 1:53:56.760 a I can't remember the exact model, but I got 1:53:56.760 --> 1:53:59.680 a brand new Winchester rifle and that Collier used that 1:53:59.760 --> 1:54:01.640 for the rest of his life because it was the 1:54:01.760 --> 1:54:06.000 rifle the Roosevelt. It's probably that way. Wouldn't be surprised. Yeah, 1:54:06.040 --> 1:54:12.880 that sounds about right. It was like, that's Roosevelt's rifle Winchester. 1:54:14.840 --> 1:54:18.160 Where uh, if I if I'm not mistaken. I think 1:54:18.160 --> 1:54:19.759 it's in I think it's in a in a historical 1:54:19.760 --> 1:54:22.559 society somewhere in Mississippi. I thought I may have read 1:54:22.560 --> 1:54:24.400 somewhere that they have that I like to fire a 1:54:24.400 --> 1:54:26.920 couple of cracks of that gun man. But it's it's 1:54:26.920 --> 1:54:28.800 pretty amazing, and it brought him to some to some 1:54:28.880 --> 1:54:34.280 national prominence. And when, uh, there was a little bit 1:54:34.320 --> 1:54:38.560 of a blowback on Roosevelt. He was publicly praising this 1:54:38.600 --> 1:54:41.840 guy he sent him this rifle, uh, and some people 1:54:41.880 --> 1:54:44.600 were like, what's the president doing hanging out with this 1:54:44.680 --> 1:54:47.040 black guy? What? What? This isn't right? A lot of 1:54:47.040 --> 1:54:49.200 people in the South were kind of angry about this, 1:54:49.280 --> 1:54:51.520 and it just didn't visually match what they thought the 1:54:51.560 --> 1:54:55.200 president United States should be doing. And editorials appeared in 1:54:55.440 --> 1:54:57.959 southern newspapers after that and they were like, look, you understand, 1:54:58.360 --> 1:55:00.760 this guy was the best slave ever. This guy was 1:55:00.800 --> 1:55:04.520 a soldier for us. He's the best, He's the perfect servant. 1:55:05.000 --> 1:55:07.320 If anybody deserved to be talked about by the president, 1:55:07.400 --> 1:55:11.160 it's whole Collier. So the question that got me thinking was, Okay, 1:55:11.320 --> 1:55:15.000 did Roosevelt ever weigh in on it anymore? Basically, he 1:55:15.040 --> 1:55:16.960 would just kind of he didn't. I don't think rose 1:55:17.160 --> 1:55:18.760 he were palsering and he does. He basically would just 1:55:18.760 --> 1:55:20.120 say like, look, this is just one of the best 1:55:20.120 --> 1:55:23.800 sports when I ever saw. But he he's like engaged 1:55:23.800 --> 1:55:26.560 in that conversation. That just the one line here from 1:55:26.560 --> 1:55:30.480 Wikipedia about how badass he was. He killed more than 1:55:30.560 --> 1:55:34.960 three thousand bears during his lifetime, more than those this 1:55:35.000 --> 1:55:39.760 is the real hum more than those taken by Davy 1:55:39.800 --> 1:55:46.400 Crockett and Daniel Boone combined. So his fake his fake 1:55:46.520 --> 1:55:52.760 number was better than Boone and Crockett, his fake number Wickuldee. 1:55:52.760 --> 1:55:56.040 It does have things wrong sometimes, but you know, for me, 1:55:56.200 --> 1:56:00.960 it's it's the extraordinary question is about whole Collier undeniably 1:56:01.120 --> 1:56:03.480 an amazing sportsman, even if his numbers are you know, 1:56:03.520 --> 1:56:09.880 wildly exaggerated, prominent, famous for his day, fairly wealthy, fairly 1:56:09.880 --> 1:56:12.240 well known. There's not a whole lot of African Americans 1:56:12.240 --> 1:56:15.040 sportsman who becomes celebrities in that time period. He did it. 1:56:15.360 --> 1:56:17.400 So it's a great thing, and what a great way 1:56:17.440 --> 1:56:19.760 for him to uh support his family and you know, 1:56:19.800 --> 1:56:21.920 and carve out a niche. But then I also wondered, like, 1:56:22.560 --> 1:56:24.680 but what's the cost of that you know, if your 1:56:24.720 --> 1:56:27.080 whole collier, you basically have to position yourself as the 1:56:27.120 --> 1:56:32.240 quintessential servant. And for a lot of white Southerners, you know, 1:56:32.880 --> 1:56:34.640 you know, they would look at that relationship and they 1:56:34.640 --> 1:56:36.480 would see a whole collier and they would see see 1:56:36.520 --> 1:56:39.520 that that's alive, and well, the old master slave thing, 1:56:39.560 --> 1:56:41.280 it's alive, and well it's like the way it should be. 1:56:41.760 --> 1:56:43.600 So for a lot of Southerners, they really looked at 1:56:43.600 --> 1:56:46.360 the sporting field, you know, not just the way of 1:56:46.400 --> 1:56:49.960 preserving the sporting tradition, but to preserve the racial tradition. 1:56:50.400 --> 1:56:53.480 You know, where else can you find that pure I'm 1:56:53.520 --> 1:56:56.440 always going to have people of color around me serving me. 1:56:56.840 --> 1:56:59.200 Now that emancipation is here, we're still going to find 1:56:59.240 --> 1:57:01.160 it in the sporting field. So it was a way 1:57:01.160 --> 1:57:04.000 of kind of resurrecting that old South and keeping it alive. 1:57:04.480 --> 1:57:07.120 So on the one hand, if if you're that that 1:57:07.200 --> 1:57:09.960 sporting guy who can make fun of of of the 1:57:09.960 --> 1:57:12.680 white guy, yeah that's a good thing, and I'm sure 1:57:12.720 --> 1:57:16.480 that's pretty satisfying. But isn't it interesting that basically you 1:57:16.480 --> 1:57:18.840 you you find a niche for yourself in an occupation 1:57:18.920 --> 1:57:23.200 that demands subservience and that must have been tough. That 1:57:23.280 --> 1:57:25.280 must have been a real double edged sword. Now that 1:57:25.360 --> 1:57:28.760 Yan he's brought Boone into it, did you read about 1:57:28.840 --> 1:57:35.280 or just consider writing about Boone's relationship with his old slave, 1:57:36.200 --> 1:57:38.280 like when Boo got old and he was going blind. 1:57:39.760 --> 1:57:43.760 He I don't want to hate to use them. I 1:57:43.800 --> 1:57:47.040 don't know. They were like people around them describe them 1:57:47.040 --> 1:57:49.640 as best friends. However true that is. But it's like 1:57:49.680 --> 1:57:53.839 Boone out a slave that was his hunting people described 1:57:53.840 --> 1:57:55.600 that that was his hunting buddy, that was his hunting partner, 1:57:55.720 --> 1:57:58.240 Like the two of them would go on big canoe 1:57:58.280 --> 1:58:01.960 based hunting trips. Did you ever spend any time on 1:58:02.120 --> 1:58:04.440 like what that what the hell that relationship was? I haven't. 1:58:04.440 --> 1:58:06.920 I haven't jumped into into that much. It's an interesting topic, though, 1:58:06.960 --> 1:58:09.240 I should check that out. Yeah, Boone would hunt in 1:58:09.280 --> 1:58:12.880 his later years, Boone would like that's who he hung 1:58:12.880 --> 1:58:16.680 out with. I mean he could have hung out with Virtue. 1:58:16.720 --> 1:58:19.000 I mean he was famous in his time. That's who 1:58:19.000 --> 1:58:21.280 we hung with. Yeah, I mean go on these trips, 1:58:21.320 --> 1:58:26.200 you know, And I could be totally misremembering this. Didn't 1:58:26.200 --> 1:58:29.480 he take that guy with him to the Alamo? Boone 1:58:29.600 --> 1:58:31.680 going to the Alamo. Sorry, I thought you mentioned Crockett. 1:58:31.680 --> 1:58:34.640 I'm sorry, because Croc had brought a bunch of pals 1:58:34.640 --> 1:58:39.560 of his that were hunting buddies. They didn't stay. Yeah, 1:58:39.560 --> 1:58:41.480 but those two get those who get tangled up a lot. 1:58:41.520 --> 1:58:45.360 But yeah, he died, and he died in Missouri. Um. 1:58:45.800 --> 1:58:48.640 And one more question for you. Have you ever spent 1:58:48.720 --> 1:58:51.520 time reading about the slave that Lewis and Clark brought 1:58:51.560 --> 1:58:54.000 with him. No, I've not done that either, but I 1:58:54.000 --> 1:58:56.320 would like to. It's you know, it's it's it's a 1:58:56.360 --> 1:58:59.480 fascinating freedom afterwards. Yeah, so they got like they got 1:58:59.480 --> 1:59:01.680 like whatever our guys on payroll, they got the ones, 1:59:01.800 --> 1:59:04.879 they got like one dude who's not just weird. It's 1:59:04.920 --> 1:59:06.840 one of the things that's that's so tough to to 1:59:06.960 --> 1:59:10.240 tease out in these stories. You know, like you mentioned, 1:59:10.280 --> 1:59:12.960 you mentioned Boone and his slave, and I don't know 1:59:13.000 --> 1:59:15.880 this story, but what I what I can probably say 1:59:15.920 --> 1:59:18.560 with some certainty is that we've based our our view 1:59:18.600 --> 1:59:22.080 of that relationship pretty much from white sources, because that's 1:59:22.080 --> 1:59:24.760 probably all we have. So what's interesting about when you 1:59:24.760 --> 1:59:27.240 when you read about these these uh you know, these 1:59:27.280 --> 1:59:31.360 master servant relationships in the post war sporting field, you 1:59:31.480 --> 1:59:34.840 never get or rarely get the laborer's perspective. It's almost 1:59:34.880 --> 1:59:37.960 always the white guys. Know what that guys? Yeah, So 1:59:38.120 --> 1:59:42.760 like how he comprehended his relationship with this like very 1:59:43.280 --> 1:59:46.440 very famous person. Yeah, like what is what is? Uh? 1:59:46.560 --> 1:59:49.240 What does that guy say when he walks away? Right? If? 1:59:49.360 --> 1:59:52.240 Oh they're they're best friends? There, what a great relationship. 1:59:52.400 --> 1:59:54.880 Maybe he saw a little differently, you know, don't know 1:59:55.000 --> 1:59:58.560 the same thing with York, the Lewis and Clark slave. Um, 1:59:58.840 --> 2:00:02.000 and maybe with him, I mean know by that in 2:00:02.040 --> 2:00:07.040 that circle, you were in a world where you know, 2:00:07.280 --> 2:00:11.160 they were celebrated. I haven't read into it. Maybe there 2:00:11.160 --> 2:00:13.720 are accounts from him, you know, Lewis and Clark would 2:00:13.720 --> 2:00:17.960 point out that, Um, the Native Americans definitely recognized him 2:00:18.000 --> 2:00:23.600 as different, you know, and uh many were quite attracted 2:00:23.600 --> 2:00:28.000 to him. Didn't like the white group but like that skin, 2:00:28.560 --> 2:00:31.000 you know, I would single him out. But yeah, and 2:00:31.000 --> 2:00:34.240 then they emancipated him afterwards. But no, to hear his 2:00:34.360 --> 2:00:37.720 take on I mean, is his take on it? Um, 2:00:37.840 --> 2:00:40.200 would it have been, Yeah, it was cool that you 2:00:40.240 --> 2:00:41.760 know they freed me. It would just take a ben 2:00:41.840 --> 2:00:44.600 on it, come on, man, like I didn't have the 2:00:45.920 --> 2:00:49.520 No one asked me to sign up, and and and 2:00:49.560 --> 2:00:52.240 there's the single biggest challenge of studying a topic like 2:00:52.280 --> 2:00:56.160 this its sources. You know, So what do people of 2:00:56.160 --> 2:00:59.560 color think about this topic? Okay? Well, I've got letters 2:00:59.560 --> 2:01:03.040 to forest and stream, you know, and sporting publications and 2:01:03.080 --> 2:01:05.840 agricultural journals, and people of color aren't contributing to those, 2:01:06.000 --> 2:01:08.080 so I'm getting the white perspective. Okay, Well, I'll read 2:01:08.120 --> 2:01:10.280 the interviews with former slaves that were done, you know, 2:01:10.360 --> 2:01:13.840 during the w p A interviews. Well, the most of 2:01:13.840 --> 2:01:16.080 the interviewers were white, so we don't know to what 2:01:16.200 --> 2:01:18.240 extent people were being as candid as they might. So 2:01:18.280 --> 2:01:22.240 you're always trying to tease out that other perspective. And 2:01:22.280 --> 2:01:24.280 that's really been, you know, one of the big weaknesses 2:01:24.360 --> 2:01:27.560 that historians always wanting to focus on the elite story 2:01:27.560 --> 2:01:29.600 that I mentioned at the beginning in that time period 2:01:30.000 --> 2:01:32.200 didn't even bother trying to figure out what what the 2:01:32.200 --> 2:01:35.080 poorer folks were thinking in that story. So it kind 2:01:35.080 --> 2:01:37.440 of fell the later generations of his storians and think, Okay, 2:01:37.440 --> 2:01:40.040 where can we tease out? How can we find what 2:01:40.160 --> 2:01:42.640 people were actually thinking? About this. Can we look at 2:01:42.680 --> 2:01:45.960 you know, court transcripts or interviews with former slaves, or 2:01:45.960 --> 2:01:49.520 how can we use a white source that talks about 2:01:49.600 --> 2:01:51.960 hunting and fishing in a way that you can sort 2:01:51.960 --> 2:01:54.760 of reveal, you know, some kind like that that story 2:01:54.800 --> 2:01:57.400 of the guy talking about his friend who was being 2:01:57.480 --> 2:02:01.680 you know, outshot by by the labor right. Um, the 2:02:01.760 --> 2:02:04.400 guy was never going to tell that story, but his buddy, 2:02:04.440 --> 2:02:06.840 to make fun of him, quotes that story and Forest 2:02:06.880 --> 2:02:08.560 and Stream. So I was able to get a little 2:02:08.560 --> 2:02:11.280 bit of that story. But it's hard to find that 2:02:11.280 --> 2:02:13.920 seems like quite the magazine. It was cool, it was 2:02:14.040 --> 2:02:17.320 very and I gotta tell you, Um, I get pretty 2:02:17.360 --> 2:02:20.960 easily distracted because I getting pretty enthusiastic about stuff and 2:02:21.040 --> 2:02:23.400 I pick up a nineteenth century copy of Forest and Stream. 2:02:23.440 --> 2:02:24.760 What I should be doing is flipping through it and 2:02:24.800 --> 2:02:26.520 seeing if I can find mention of ray and then 2:02:26.560 --> 2:02:29.720 I'm reading them all. So I've read so many issues 2:02:29.720 --> 2:02:31.440 of Force and Stream over here because it's just fun. 2:02:31.720 --> 2:02:34.920 I love looking at the ads. Williams could have a 2:02:34.920 --> 2:02:38.280 good conversation. Yeah, yeah, we had a We got a 2:02:38.280 --> 2:02:40.480 friend who he came on the show before. We'll have 2:02:40.560 --> 2:02:42.920 to find out what the hell episode? This was very 2:02:42.960 --> 2:02:49.360 early in the infancy of this this year show. Um, 2:02:49.480 --> 2:02:52.400 he looked at what did you look at a hundred years? 2:02:53.760 --> 2:02:55.720 It was It was not quite I want to say 2:02:55.720 --> 2:02:57.960 it was like post World War two, I think is 2:02:58.000 --> 2:02:59.520 where he picked it up, right, And I can't remember 2:02:59.520 --> 2:03:04.440 if Ray was one of them, but he reviewed attitude 2:03:04.480 --> 2:03:08.760 towards gun rights, attitude towards the environment, attitude, a handful 2:03:08.800 --> 2:03:13.000 of things just in a couple of publications over a 2:03:13.080 --> 2:03:17.880 hundred years. The evolution like basically the evolution of the 2:03:17.960 --> 2:03:26.520 American sportsman's mind, opinions, interests, perception, as captured in a 2:03:26.600 --> 2:03:29.440 hundred years of these and mostly through the editorials. Right, 2:03:31.280 --> 2:03:33.920 but you got to cover interesting things, man. That um 2:03:33.960 --> 2:03:37.760 that we talked about the show is when freezers became 2:03:37.800 --> 2:03:42.240 a thing that changed ship Like when you know whatever 2:03:42.480 --> 2:03:44.160 people are hunting in the forties or whatever. I can't 2:03:44.160 --> 2:03:47.840 remember what it happened, but you don't have freezer. You 2:03:47.880 --> 2:03:49.720 didn't know the whole idea of like shooting a deer 2:03:49.760 --> 2:03:52.880 and putting your freezer all year wasn't a thing. This 2:03:53.080 --> 2:03:55.240 wasn't a thing. Then all of a sudden it became 2:03:55.280 --> 2:03:57.640 like everybody had a freezer and just changed the whole 2:03:57.640 --> 2:04:01.680 conversation about game. Oh that's it. That that makes me 2:04:01.760 --> 2:04:04.960 want to dive back into something because right, how many 2:04:04.960 --> 2:04:06.760 times you heard that? But like, no, it's like, wasn't 2:04:06.760 --> 2:04:08.160 the case. You haven't there's nothing to do with it. 2:04:08.200 --> 2:04:10.240 You got it and you had to find gave it away, 2:04:10.280 --> 2:04:12.560 and everybody ate it and that was it. You know. 2:04:12.600 --> 2:04:15.520 The big the big thing for for elite sportsman, especially 2:04:15.600 --> 2:04:19.360 on these you know, these big excursions, lots of visitors, 2:04:19.400 --> 2:04:22.160 lots of money. They're the really prominent ones where they 2:04:22.200 --> 2:04:24.560 would have toither the retinue. Right, so one of these 2:04:24.560 --> 2:04:27.320 big hunts. Uh, the kind of standard move for these 2:04:27.320 --> 2:04:30.160 elites was they would get every single thing that they captured, 2:04:30.160 --> 2:04:32.680 that they caught. They would divvy up some of it 2:04:32.720 --> 2:04:35.240 among their guides and laborers, and then the rest they 2:04:35.240 --> 2:04:37.240 would just have a big old party and give away 2:04:37.320 --> 2:04:40.440 to people in the area to show they're sort of aristocratic, uh, 2:04:40.520 --> 2:04:43.520 you know whatever they call it, their their their generosity. 2:04:43.720 --> 2:04:47.240 I wonder how that changed with the freezer, because I 2:04:47.240 --> 2:04:49.840 would imagine giving it away if you're not gonna eat it, 2:04:49.840 --> 2:04:51.600 because someone's gonna say, oh my god, did you see 2:04:51.640 --> 2:04:53.720 what Mr John he was eating what he caught. Is 2:04:53.720 --> 2:04:56.480 he having hard times? What's going on here? Because that 2:04:56.520 --> 2:04:57.960 was sort of thing. I don't have to eat what 2:04:58.000 --> 2:05:00.320 I catch, I give it away. I wonder if once 2:05:00.360 --> 2:05:02.520 freezers were around, I think, hey, throw that in the freezer. 2:05:03.040 --> 2:05:05.760 Let's not give that away. Yeah. I go read Randall's dissertation. 2:05:06.720 --> 2:05:09.640 That sounds really interesting. Yeah, I wish Yeah, you'll find 2:05:09.640 --> 2:05:12.480 it go way back. We know now there's like a 2:05:12.560 --> 2:05:15.000 lack of diversity right in the in the hunting general, 2:05:15.080 --> 2:05:18.720 hunting and fishing crowd in this country. And obviously it 2:05:18.920 --> 2:05:22.120 stems from what we've just been talking about. So can 2:05:22.160 --> 2:05:25.160 you kind of put that in perspective? Well, yeah, and 2:05:25.400 --> 2:05:26.680 I guess would. I would have to say I didn't 2:05:26.680 --> 2:05:28.880 get explicitly too much into this in the book because 2:05:28.880 --> 2:05:31.560 I sort of kind of shut it off around thet 2:05:33.280 --> 2:05:36.520 um but I think there's there's there's a lot there. Um. 2:05:36.640 --> 2:05:38.400 You know. I was actually talking to Jonathan Wilkins about 2:05:38.440 --> 2:05:41.280 this not too long ago. The sort of stereotype, uh, 2:05:41.320 --> 2:05:43.440 you know that you know, people of color, you know, 2:05:43.520 --> 2:05:46.040 don't like the outdoors or don't swim, or you know, 2:05:46.120 --> 2:05:49.880 don't hunt as often as white. It's predominantly a white thing. Um. 2:05:49.920 --> 2:05:51.600 And you touched on that, you know, in that blog 2:05:51.680 --> 2:05:54.480 that you posted a few weeks ago. The diversity can 2:05:54.520 --> 2:05:57.880 be an issue sometimes in the contemporary scene. Yeah, and 2:05:57.920 --> 2:06:01.200 I always I always attributed it or imagined it being 2:06:01.360 --> 2:06:05.440 like a demographics issue that after the war, so many 2:06:05.480 --> 2:06:09.000 people came in the industrial to work in the industrialized North. 2:06:09.320 --> 2:06:11.320 That's one of these surprises of me how prevalent hunting 2:06:11.320 --> 2:06:15.040 and fishing were at the time. Yeah. Absolutely, And the 2:06:15.040 --> 2:06:18.280 way I would look at it is, um, you know, 2:06:18.480 --> 2:06:22.160 there's this very deep and rich sporting tradition in the 2:06:22.200 --> 2:06:26.000 black community, slaves, free blacks, you know, and we intensifies 2:06:26.040 --> 2:06:29.320 after emancipation because of sporting tourism. So it's it's a 2:06:29.360 --> 2:06:33.000 big part of black life, especially in the rural South. 2:06:33.760 --> 2:06:38.120 But then we can look at at restrictions on sporting 2:06:38.160 --> 2:06:42.080 practices in the South. They're used the same way that 2:06:42.080 --> 2:06:44.240 other gym crow laws are used, you know, they're really 2:06:44.240 --> 2:06:47.760 trying to regulate black behavior. So by the time we 2:06:47.840 --> 2:06:52.560 get to you know, nine nineteen ten, the black population 2:06:52.600 --> 2:06:54.920 in the South was like, look, you know, lynch ings, 2:06:55.400 --> 2:07:00.040 Jim Crow laws, voting restrictions, hunting and fishing, restrictions. It 2:07:00.080 --> 2:07:02.120 is all part of a big story that's you know, 2:07:02.240 --> 2:07:05.760 really making the South less hospitable place. So the Great 2:07:05.760 --> 2:07:10.480 Migration begins and then um the northern cities. And I think, 2:07:10.480 --> 2:07:13.480 I think probably the thing that helps people remember just 2:07:13.600 --> 2:07:19.360 how connected African American population was to hunting and fishing 2:07:19.360 --> 2:07:21.720 in the South, which we think of you hunting and 2:07:21.760 --> 2:07:24.520 fishing is a rural thing, right for most people. Well, 2:07:24.720 --> 2:07:28.480 in eighteen ninety, African Americans were demographically the most southern 2:07:28.520 --> 2:07:31.520 and rural population in the United States. But then the 2:07:31.560 --> 2:07:35.520 migration period starts between a nineteen hundred and nineteen fifty, 2:07:35.600 --> 2:07:39.120 and today African Americans are demographically the most northern and 2:07:39.200 --> 2:07:42.640 urban population. But if you back up far enough, it's 2:07:42.640 --> 2:07:47.040 a rural population in the South historically relying on these 2:07:47.240 --> 2:07:51.120 forms of land and wildlife use to get by. It 2:07:51.160 --> 2:07:53.440 gets harder for them to do that. And I gotta 2:07:53.480 --> 2:07:56.840 believe it's on the list of factors that influenced the 2:07:56.880 --> 2:07:59.840 Great Migration. So I feel like there was a there 2:07:59.880 --> 2:08:03.600 was a sort of a separate, a forced separation, you know. 2:08:03.680 --> 2:08:04.960 I don't, I don't know if you back up a 2:08:05.000 --> 2:08:07.240 hundred and twenty years, I don't think you could hold 2:08:07.280 --> 2:08:09.960 the the idea that people of color don't use the 2:08:10.040 --> 2:08:12.840 natural environment as much as whites, that that was just 2:08:12.880 --> 2:08:14.800 that was kind of separated they were they were that 2:08:14.880 --> 2:08:17.920 was taken from them, and not only did they use it, 2:08:17.960 --> 2:08:21.600 but they were sounds like renowned as possibly being the 2:08:21.640 --> 2:08:24.400 best ones at using it. Yeah, I mean there's there's 2:08:24.400 --> 2:08:28.000 a real tradition there. And uh, I think if we 2:08:28.040 --> 2:08:33.320 remember that, Uh you made the point in the blog, right, 2:08:33.360 --> 2:08:37.040 the idea that you know, the question of what's the 2:08:37.080 --> 2:08:41.560 way forward, uh, bringing new people into this sporting community, 2:08:41.680 --> 2:08:45.120 or or preserving the traditions of those who already do it. 2:08:45.440 --> 2:08:47.280 Well for the people who are saying, you know, let's 2:08:47.280 --> 2:08:51.400 preserve the traditions of those who already do it. Um, 2:08:51.520 --> 2:08:54.320 the list of people that have a tradition in those 2:08:54.360 --> 2:08:56.680 areas is bigger than our current list of people that 2:08:57.080 --> 2:09:01.000 think of themselves as traditional sportsman and sports man. There's 2:09:01.040 --> 2:09:02.960 this other group of people that used to be a 2:09:03.040 --> 2:09:06.120 huge part of American hunting and fishing and not quite 2:09:06.120 --> 2:09:09.880 so much now. So it's not like we can just say, well, 2:09:09.880 --> 2:09:13.400 you know, clearly historically people of color haven't really wanted 2:09:13.400 --> 2:09:15.720 to be involved in Yeah, we don't need to think 2:09:15.720 --> 2:09:17.880 about it. So there there is a question of you know, 2:09:18.000 --> 2:09:22.200 participation in outdoor activities hunting and fishing among diverse populations 2:09:22.760 --> 2:09:25.200 needs to be encouraged. It does bring up interesting just 2:09:25.360 --> 2:09:28.320 the idea about tradition, you know, depends how far back 2:09:28.360 --> 2:09:30.480 you want to delve back. Yeah, absolutely, And you know, 2:09:30.520 --> 2:09:32.240 and and I've I've talked to a lot of people 2:09:32.680 --> 2:09:35.960 over the years that I've met, you know, just not 2:09:36.080 --> 2:09:38.520 in the context of my work, but I've just met them. 2:09:38.560 --> 2:09:41.080 And and oh, you do hunting and fishing. Oh yeah, 2:09:41.120 --> 2:09:43.280 my family used to be really big into that and 2:09:43.320 --> 2:09:45.840 you know, not so much. Now, where'd your family come from? 2:09:45.880 --> 2:09:50.160 So we migrated from Mississippi. You know. I'm like, well, 2:09:50.160 --> 2:09:53.880 that's that's that's con that's consistent with the story. Yeah. 2:09:53.960 --> 2:09:58.000 I regard myself as um having like a deep family 2:09:58.360 --> 2:10:03.520 tradition and hunting. But my ancestors came from Sicily, Western Europe. 2:10:04.120 --> 2:10:07.960 Like probably not deep. I mean by deep, I mean 2:10:08.040 --> 2:10:12.320 my grandfather. Do you know if those ancestors that were 2:10:12.400 --> 2:10:15.080 in Europe hunted? No, we have no one has any 2:10:15.120 --> 2:10:18.360 idea who they were. Right, Well, no, that's not true. 2:10:18.360 --> 2:10:21.760 On the Sicilians. We do the Ronella's we do. I 2:10:21.760 --> 2:10:23.560 don't know that they didn't hunt the damner didn't when 2:10:23.600 --> 2:10:27.800 they got here. So I'm saying, like deep tradition for 2:10:27.840 --> 2:10:32.800 me is that my maternal and paternal grandfather, you know, 2:10:33.360 --> 2:10:36.120 one of whom I met and hung out with. So 2:10:36.200 --> 2:10:40.480 that's how deep that is. Well, you know, in a sense, 2:10:40.480 --> 2:10:42.160 I would argue is that there's a different kind of 2:10:42.200 --> 2:10:45.000 depth there. There there's an historical depth to those kind 2:10:45.000 --> 2:10:47.720 of connections because what I've what I've learned over the 2:10:47.800 --> 2:10:50.120 years from reading different books about hunting coming out of 2:10:50.120 --> 2:10:53.520 the European tradition is a lot of people like even 2:10:53.520 --> 2:10:56.160 like these maligned you know, European immigrants that go to 2:10:56.160 --> 2:10:59.600 New York State and are accused of being game hogs. Um, 2:10:59.640 --> 2:11:02.080 you know, you're an immigrant that comes from most of Europe. 2:11:02.080 --> 2:11:05.520 They've got a long history of really restrictive game laws, 2:11:05.840 --> 2:11:08.120 a game system that is flat out gives all the 2:11:08.120 --> 2:11:11.360 privileges and rights to the landed aristocrats. You can explore 2:11:11.400 --> 2:11:15.320 that through like elements of that through the robin Hood narrative. Yeah, exactly. 2:11:15.360 --> 2:11:19.600 It's a tremendous source of conflict. And when people migrate 2:11:19.600 --> 2:11:22.360 to the US and they're like, whoa, we can just 2:11:22.560 --> 2:11:25.640 do this, This is amazing. So there's this sort of 2:11:26.120 --> 2:11:28.920 instant tradition like look, I am allowed to do this, now, 2:11:28.960 --> 2:11:31.200 this is fan What a land of opportunity when I 2:11:31.200 --> 2:11:33.720 can actually freely hunt and fish without having to worry 2:11:33.720 --> 2:11:36.960 about the rich guy always gets first crack. So I 2:11:36.960 --> 2:11:40.000 think that a lot of sort of the more recent 2:11:40.160 --> 2:11:42.280 sporting even you know, even if you are you're the 2:11:42.280 --> 2:11:44.920 first generation to pick it up, you're kind of continuing 2:11:44.960 --> 2:11:49.800 that tradition of something that demonstrates independence that's common across 2:11:49.920 --> 2:11:53.080 you know, white, black, rich, poor when people do these 2:11:53.080 --> 2:11:57.400 things historically, they think this is about sufficiency. Independence, individual 2:11:57.400 --> 2:12:01.760 competence for many people feels like an American birthright exactly. 2:12:02.160 --> 2:12:04.400 And that was gonna be my closing thought, and you're 2:12:04.640 --> 2:12:06.840 just you know, saying it way better than I could. 2:12:06.920 --> 2:12:10.160 But it was just like reading the book has given 2:12:10.160 --> 2:12:15.240 me a completely new and better, stronger appreciation for hunting 2:12:15.240 --> 2:12:19.080 and fishing is like a means to freedom because if 2:12:19.080 --> 2:12:23.160 they if like these slaves didn't have that, like you know, 2:12:24.160 --> 2:12:26.440 just imagine, you know, I mean, we don't know what 2:12:26.480 --> 2:12:28.880 the outcome would have been, right, But like with hunting 2:12:28.880 --> 2:12:32.320 and fishing, it like immediately gave them a means to 2:12:32.720 --> 2:12:34.760 be like, oh, even though we're free, even though you 2:12:34.800 --> 2:12:38.080 still hold you know, some power overs because when you 2:12:38.120 --> 2:12:40.839 have to survive and we need to work and we feed. 2:12:40.840 --> 2:12:44.080 But because they had hunting and fishing, they were allowed 2:12:44.120 --> 2:12:47.120 to be freer. Yeah, before you came in, you and 2:12:47.200 --> 2:12:49.280 I were just having a quick chat and he kind 2:12:49.280 --> 2:12:52.760 of pointed out use these words, but he pointed out 2:12:52.840 --> 2:12:55.960 the ways in which it's a it's like a celebration 2:12:57.120 --> 2:13:01.240 in some ways of celebration hunting and fishing. Yeah. Yeah, 2:13:01.280 --> 2:13:03.640 I think so, because you know, I guess the person. 2:13:03.680 --> 2:13:06.400 I let's circle back to Charles Ball, right, the guy 2:13:06.440 --> 2:13:09.160 who had to quote about feeling like an independent man. 2:13:09.240 --> 2:13:13.680 You know, he's a slave and this kind of powerful 2:13:13.760 --> 2:13:16.040 idea of competence, which we sort of lost. We don't 2:13:16.040 --> 2:13:18.760 really dig that these days. But the nineteenth century model 2:13:18.760 --> 2:13:22.360 of competence was I'm independent, I own my own land, 2:13:22.920 --> 2:13:25.560 I can feed myself in my family, and I'm beholden 2:13:25.560 --> 2:13:27.800 to no one. I'm debt free. Like so that was 2:13:27.840 --> 2:13:31.400 like the goal. You're a competent you know, American. I'm 2:13:31.400 --> 2:13:33.800 still big into competency, but I don't describe it though, 2:13:34.040 --> 2:13:35.960 h yeah, it's not a tern where you use much anymore. 2:13:36.480 --> 2:13:39.600 It's a great it's a great idea to fix stuff. 2:13:42.640 --> 2:13:46.000 And so there's this notion of being a competent citizen, 2:13:46.520 --> 2:13:48.480 and it was really understood back then is that was 2:13:48.560 --> 2:13:50.800 really a white thing, or at least that was the 2:13:50.800 --> 2:13:53.360 white view, like competence. A slave is not going to 2:13:53.440 --> 2:13:56.680 have that right their own. They're literally there. They can't 2:13:56.680 --> 2:13:59.560 have honor because they're owned by somebody else, and they're 2:13:59.600 --> 2:14:02.880 not going to independent. They don't feed their family. I do. 2:14:03.320 --> 2:14:05.440 So that just wasn't a thing that I that I, 2:14:05.560 --> 2:14:09.080 as as an owner, thought that was for them. But 2:14:09.120 --> 2:14:10.680 then you're Charles Ball and you're like, you know what, 2:14:10.720 --> 2:14:12.880 you own me, You own my family, You control what 2:14:12.960 --> 2:14:15.800 I do, you control my days. But you know what, 2:14:15.840 --> 2:14:19.040 I am the best sportsman you have. I go off 2:14:19.040 --> 2:14:21.800 on my own time and earned game and income from 2:14:21.800 --> 2:14:23.760 my family that you don't want me to have, and 2:14:23.800 --> 2:14:26.960 I do it anyway, and I demonstrate skill that you 2:14:27.000 --> 2:14:30.560 say shouldn't be demonstrated by people of color. And in 2:14:30.640 --> 2:14:34.320 the sort of limited world of options of a slave, 2:14:34.520 --> 2:14:37.080 that's a that's those are a couple of extended middle 2:14:37.120 --> 2:14:39.640 fingers to the master, and in and of itself, that's 2:14:39.680 --> 2:14:45.640 worth something. I think. All right, Scott Guiltner with we're 2:14:45.640 --> 2:14:49.440 gonna hit it again, Culver Stockton College. That's it. It's 2:14:49.480 --> 2:14:53.760 not Missouri, it is Canton, Missouri. What were you saying. 2:14:53.760 --> 2:14:57.280 I thought you were saying, what about Illinois? You I 2:14:57.360 --> 2:15:00.520 live right across the river in Quincy, Illinois. Canton is 2:15:00.520 --> 2:15:02.240 on one side of the river, and Quincy still down 2:15:02.280 --> 2:15:03.840 the street on the home of the guy that was 2:15:03.880 --> 2:15:06.480 flying the and Nola gay when it dropped the Yeah, 2:15:06.480 --> 2:15:09.400 Paul Tibots, Yeah, he was born in His mother, Nola 2:15:09.440 --> 2:15:12.560 Gayo was was born and raised in Quincy. His mom 2:15:12.560 --> 2:15:14.200 was a Nola gay Yeah. That's why the plane's name 2:15:14.240 --> 2:15:16.320 that you have to do his own plane, Yeah, named 2:15:16.320 --> 2:15:19.960 it after his mom. And it dropped on Hiroshima or Nagasaki. 2:15:20.160 --> 2:15:24.560 I think Hiroshima. What happened to that guy? I have 2:15:24.680 --> 2:15:27.960 no idea. I do know that about oh, geez, thirty 2:15:28.040 --> 2:15:29.760 years ago or so. One of the one of the 2:15:29.800 --> 2:15:32.720 historians in town told me that, uh, there was a 2:15:32.760 --> 2:15:35.960 push to name an elementary school after him, and then 2:15:36.000 --> 2:15:39.320 some people were like, I don't know, atomic bomb elementary school, 2:15:39.400 --> 2:15:42.360 and they eventually shelved the plan, but getting name of 2:15:42.400 --> 2:15:45.840 school after him and they were afraid. So yeah, I 2:15:45.880 --> 2:15:50.640 don't know. I mean, m hm, a doubt, you know. 2:15:51.040 --> 2:15:54.280 I mean the guy had was doing a job. He's yeah, 2:15:55.120 --> 2:15:57.920 did his job? Did it? Well, we'll talk about that 2:15:57.960 --> 2:16:02.480 once some more time. That's a tough one. No, it's 2:16:02.480 --> 2:16:05.680 not tough. I mean for some people to tell one 2:16:05.800 --> 2:16:12.560 for some people's tough one. All right, y'all, thank you, thanks, yeah, 2:16:12.560 --> 2:16:14.840 thank you all so much. Great book. Everybody should read 2:16:14.840 --> 2:16:18.040 this book. I appreciate and uh, yeah it is Uh, 2:16:18.080 --> 2:16:21.080 I'll just mentioned this a shameless plug if you don't mind. Uh, 2:16:21.280 --> 2:16:23.960 you can grab this on Amazon. Um. It is currently 2:16:24.000 --> 2:16:27.080 out of stock, but I check this morning and it's 2:16:27.120 --> 2:16:31.000 listed as restocked on June, so that's not too bad. 2:16:31.320 --> 2:16:35.440 So yeah, as usually when you win, there's a book 2:16:35.440 --> 2:16:37.240 and low supply and then all of a sudden you 2:16:37.280 --> 2:16:40.600 see it selling for big amounts of money. Have you 2:16:40.640 --> 2:16:42.840 seen it go for a lot of money? And sometimes uh, 2:16:42.879 --> 2:16:44.680 because it's like there's like not many for sale, and 2:16:44.760 --> 2:16:49.200 some guys like I'll tell you what I'll do. Yeah, yeah, 2:16:49.280 --> 2:16:52.360 and uh and uh, two things to any of you 2:16:52.400 --> 2:16:54.360 out there that may listen to this. If any of 2:16:54.400 --> 2:16:57.480 you paid that amount of money for my book, I 2:16:57.520 --> 2:17:00.400 have two thoughts, one thank you and two out of 2:17:00.440 --> 2:17:03.720 your mind? What were you thinking? Let me hit you 2:17:03.720 --> 2:17:07.080 with a quick book story. So, uh, there's a book 2:17:07.120 --> 2:17:09.440 I'm a great admirer of by a guy named Duncan 2:17:09.480 --> 2:17:12.240 Gil Chris. It's called Hunt High not like Baked but 2:17:12.360 --> 2:17:15.680 Hunt the High Country, and um, I love the book 2:17:15.720 --> 2:17:18.320 and he was a very accomplished alpine hunter. And I 2:17:18.320 --> 2:17:19.920 always talked about this book, but the book was out 2:17:19.959 --> 2:17:23.320 of print, and eventually I realized that someone run off 2:17:23.320 --> 2:17:27.000 with my copy. So I go online and then there's 2:17:27.000 --> 2:17:28.720 some guys selling it for a hunter bucks or seventy 2:17:28.720 --> 2:17:31.039 five bucks. I'm like, that's ridiculous, you know if I 2:17:31.080 --> 2:17:34.160 wanted it back, So I buy the book. The book 2:17:34.200 --> 2:17:35.879 shows up in my house with a sticky note on 2:17:35.959 --> 2:17:38.720 the cover and it says, dude, you're the reason I 2:17:38.760 --> 2:17:44.760 bought this book. Yeah, then you had to give me 2:17:44.800 --> 2:17:47.680 that copy of that book, which I now proudly owned. 2:17:47.680 --> 2:17:49.680 I'm glad to know that it's a hundred dollar copy 2:17:49.680 --> 2:17:52.680 of that book because I had loaned out to you 2:17:52.879 --> 2:17:56.920 a like a like a first edition. Jack O'Connor that 2:17:57.040 --> 2:17:59.400 you had given away. So now I'm the owner of 2:17:59.480 --> 2:18:02.360 your hunter A card h High. Oh yeah, you're not 2:18:02.360 --> 2:18:05.240 getting it back. Forgot about that. That's the way it's 2:18:05.240 --> 2:18:07.360 supposed to be, right, they say. They say that books 2:18:07.360 --> 2:18:11.240 shouldn't have owners, just readers just pass them around. I 2:18:11.280 --> 2:18:17.080 don't abide by that. I like other stuff you said, Scott. Thanks, thanks,