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Speaker 1: This is me eat podcast coming at you shirtless, severely,

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Speaker 1: bug bitten and in my case, underwear listening podcast. You

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Speaker 1: can't predict anything presented by first Light, Go farther, stay longer.

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Speaker 1: All right, welcome everybody. We're joined. Uh, we're gonna We're

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Speaker 1: gonna get there real soon. We're joining in by his historian,

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Speaker 1: Scott Guiltner, professor at Culver Stockton College, who we've been

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Speaker 1: wanting to have you on for a long long time.

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Speaker 1: Do we get like derailed by COVID or what happened?

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Speaker 1: I can't remember. I'm not sure, but it's it's great

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Speaker 1: to be here. This is pretty exciting. But it's been

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Speaker 1: a while that we try to get you on. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's been a while, I think, Uh, he's all. You

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Speaker 1: probably don't. You probably wrote a bunch of things, different

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Speaker 1: papers and whatnot, a lot of paper. This is the

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Speaker 1: only book. I sort of thought when I finished grad school,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna write a book every couple of years. And

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Speaker 1: then I taught at a small college and all of

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Speaker 1: a sudden, life has less time than I thought. And

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Speaker 1: here we are years later and still the same book. Dude.

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Speaker 1: This book is fascinating though. Man, it's called Hunting and

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Speaker 1: Fishing in the New South. Yeah, hunting and fishing in

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Speaker 1: the New South, Black labor and white leisure after the

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Speaker 1: Civil War. And I'll tell you what I uh, we'll

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Speaker 1: get into it in greater detail, but just to kind

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Speaker 1: of tease up before we hit a couple of things

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Speaker 1: we got to hit. Um. The book covers many things,

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Speaker 1: but one of the things I found most fascinating, and

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Speaker 1: it's kind of betrays the fact. And I hate to

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Speaker 1: admit this to you, like I didn't finish THEMN book.

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Speaker 1: I really meant to, and I was getting along good,

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Speaker 1: and I was I was folding pages and making notes,

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Speaker 1: but then only wanted to check out the book. So

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Speaker 1: it's his vault. But I skimmed around. Maybe collectively we

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Speaker 1: got probably through. I'll give us. I am very like. Well,

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Speaker 1: I'll tell you if you screw. If you went and

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Speaker 1: explored my text message exchanges, you would find where I

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Speaker 1: sent a picture of that book cover to my brother Matt.

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Speaker 1: I sent a picture of that book cover to a

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Speaker 1: biologist named Robert Abernathy. I sent it to my brother Danny.

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Speaker 1: I don't do that for every book. I appreciate that.

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Speaker 1: I'm right now, I'm just talked into a history of

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Speaker 1: the monk in the Cia, in the Secret Wars and Laos.

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Speaker 1: I didn't send that book cover to anybody. A might

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Speaker 1: later I like this damn book, but it covers, among

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Speaker 1: many of other things, the hunting practices of slaves. It's like,

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Speaker 1: of course, and you think about like, of course they

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Speaker 1: were engaged in the activity in some areas, I'm sure,

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Speaker 1: but like it never really gave it any thought what

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Speaker 1: that that aspect of that experience. That's sort of how

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Speaker 1: it was, you know, when I first started the project,

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Speaker 1: because it was it was such a novel topic for

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Speaker 1: some people, you know, their response was, really you want

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Speaker 1: to study that? And the other people said, well that's

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Speaker 1: so mundane. Of course they hunted and fished for food.

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Speaker 1: What's what's the larger significance of that? And I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: that's that's what I'm gonna find out. I guess I

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Speaker 1: combined both those people. I'm a combination of that makes sense,

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Speaker 1: of course they did. And then like, but i'd have

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Speaker 1: to know more which is the path you went down?

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Speaker 1: And we'll get to but it's not exactly something that

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Speaker 1: they covered off on in your you know, six studies

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Speaker 1: class and then there's the hunting fishing for sure. Well

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Speaker 1: you said, we'll get into it later, but like it

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Speaker 1: seems like it made such a big impact. I think

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Speaker 1: reading reading the book that it maybe should have been covered.

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Speaker 1: Maybe maybe one of the things that's kind of impressed

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Speaker 1: me over the past twelve years, since the twelve years wow,

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Speaker 1: since the book came out, is that it was there

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Speaker 1: really wasn't much on the topic at the time, and

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Speaker 1: since then quite a bit more has come out. And

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Speaker 1: then other topics that are sort of conceptually similar, sort

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Speaker 1: of odd opics that people would think of as a

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Speaker 1: pretty mundane thing that's actually more revealing, whether it's the

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Speaker 1: history of African American beaches or the history of black barbers.

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Speaker 1: You know, I think there's all these interesting, uh you know,

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Speaker 1: studies of environmental use and occupations that haven't really been

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Speaker 1: given much attention before, and it's it's kind of cool.

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Speaker 1: And when we talk about that, we'll get into kind

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Speaker 1: of a twist, an interesting twist or an interesting wrinkle,

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Speaker 1: and um, the much celebrated advent of the American conservation movement.

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Speaker 1: And you'll see, first we got stuff talking about Yanni

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Speaker 1: ran his full his first full marathon, yeah, like like

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Speaker 1: in the organized sense or you just counted off. Uh

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Speaker 1: it's uh, it's a little bit of a funny story,

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Speaker 1: I think because I wasn't. I got into a race

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Speaker 1: here in Bozeman called the bridger Ridge Run, which is

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Speaker 1: in August, and it's twenty miles but it's across the

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Speaker 1: mountains and uh it's uh like the course record is

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Speaker 1: somewhere around three hours, which you know people run like

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Speaker 1: two hour marathons these days, I believe. Um, So anyways,

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Speaker 1: it's a it's an arduous course wrapped the whole day

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Speaker 1: of marathon up in two hours. Yeah, when you're running

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Speaker 1: like something crazy like four minute miles for twenty six

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Speaker 1: miles in a row. Because when I think of running

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Speaker 1: a marathon, I think just boring. I did it and

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Speaker 1: twice that time took me four hours of running. But

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Speaker 1: uh no, So I U meta fella through some works

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Speaker 1: kind of unrelated work but not work stuff. Um. I

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Speaker 1: won't get into the details. But I meet a fella

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Speaker 1: and we kind of became friendly and we're like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: we should hang out of the initials are his occupation

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Speaker 1: or B I correct, yes, yeah, um and Barbara not Barbara.

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Speaker 1: We have similarly aged kids. Both happened to be girls,

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Speaker 1: and we're like, man, we could probably hang out. And

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Speaker 1: not a baker. No, not not a baker. He used

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Speaker 1: to live in uh Colorado or I used to live

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Speaker 1: so you know, we had a lot of connection. Anyways, Uh,

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Speaker 1: a week later after meeting him, I'm running my dog

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Speaker 1: on the little like three mile loop that run all

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Speaker 1: the time near our house, and he pulls by me

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Speaker 1: and then turns around and comes back, and his wife

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Speaker 1: rolls down the window and he's like, hey, what's up.

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Speaker 1: My buddy, Nick was just talking about you, and then

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Speaker 1: we see you running here and uh, you know, we

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Speaker 1: didn't know you were a runner and got home at

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Speaker 1: home back up, I just got confused. You met the guy, yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you had a lot of shared so you had

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Speaker 1: some shared experiences. And then you're running with your dog

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Speaker 1: later and who runs into you. He his wife and

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Speaker 1: his two kids. So the same guy runs in Yeah, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: they're just driving. They just happened to be driving over

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Speaker 1: to Paradise Valley, cutting through Trail Creek. I'm with you now,

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Speaker 1: and uh so they turned around and they come just

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Speaker 1: to chat for a little bit and they're like She's like,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're celebrating Nick's forty this weekend, and part

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Speaker 1: of the celebration is, uh, Leftover Salmon happened to be

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Speaker 1: playing on who all here knows that band, but they

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Speaker 1: happen to be playing You never heard of Leftover Salmon,

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Speaker 1: like a jam band from the nineties, but they're still

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Speaker 1: playing hard in the widespread panic. Exactly. It's a great name,

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Speaker 1: there were Salmon is a perfect jam band name for sure.

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Speaker 1: It's got the blues. That's okay, thank you. I never

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Speaker 1: got into any of that music that I stopped at

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Speaker 1: the dead um. Anyways, they're like part of the celebration

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Speaker 1: this weekend is Nick wanted to run a marathon for

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Speaker 1: his birthday. So tomorrow morning they're gonna run right here

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Speaker 1: from Trail Creek down to the Loch Leven camp site

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Speaker 1: on the Yellowstone Marathon. You want to go, we could

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Speaker 1: use you. We need some people to pace. And if

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Speaker 1: it was just an open invitation to be like, hey,

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Speaker 1: you can run the marathon, or you could run like

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Speaker 1: ten miles of it, just like calm and have fun.

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Speaker 1: We've got eight stations and T shirts and kids with

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Speaker 1: bells and and there's gonna be like ten. People are

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Speaker 1: so involved. I'm like, yeah, it sounds great. Let me

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Speaker 1: see if I can get some babysitters because I was

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Speaker 1: running solo. So how to drop the kids off the

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Speaker 1: next morning at like six o'clock in the morning at

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Speaker 1: my brother in law's house. And then I actually started.

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Speaker 1: Didn't they want to spending the night there the night

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Speaker 1: before though? That was my understanding. We were hoping to

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Speaker 1: do that, but it didn't quite come. I thought I

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Speaker 1: called him gonna lie ran that was that was a

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Speaker 1: very good plan. Trust, but verify that's what's called. So

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Speaker 1: white white kids with bells. This this this makes surprise you.

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Speaker 1: I am not a runner, yeah, exactly, just a cheer

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Speaker 1: and ring bells and yell and whatever. And so I

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Speaker 1: actually started probably half and I caught them half an

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Speaker 1: hour into their run, um because I just they were

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Speaker 1: starting at I forget what it was seven, and I

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Speaker 1: didn't get there untill seven thirty. Sometimes they want to

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Speaker 1: get going earlier. Yeah, And so I basically just drove

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Speaker 1: until I caught up to him and then found the

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Speaker 1: next pull off pulled off. Uh. They gave me a

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Speaker 1: Nick Benson uh birthday marathon t shirt. Threw it on

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Speaker 1: and we started running. And at that point I didn't like,

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Speaker 1: I was like, I'm just gonna do what I can. Like,

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Speaker 1: I know that I'm capable of twenty I don't know

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Speaker 1: if I'm feeling like I'm gonna pull off twenty six.

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Speaker 1: But at the end, like I said, I started roughly

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Speaker 1: thirty minutes, which is roughly probably at our pace, three

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Speaker 1: miles behind. So at the end of it, I ran

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Speaker 1: another three and a half miles by myself, just kept going. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: those are the hardest three miles because when you're running

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Speaker 1: in a group, you're chatting, and everybody's you know, well

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Speaker 1: everybody else is now in lounge shares with their shrunning

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Speaker 1: shoes off, you know, dumping water on them. And I'm like, okay,

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Speaker 1: just fill my fill my squeeze bottles back up and

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Speaker 1: give me some more those salt pills. I'll be back

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Speaker 1: in an hour. And so yeah, well, how did you

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Speaker 1: know who went? Who went and measured it off for you?

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Speaker 1: So another vehicle, Uh, we knew that the dirt road

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Speaker 1: that we had uh run in on from the pavement

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Speaker 1: to the camp site was exactly a mile, so I

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Speaker 1: knew I had roughly three miles to go. So I

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Speaker 1: ran out the dirt and then I just timed myself.

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Speaker 1: I ran seven minutes down the pavement, turned around, ran

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Speaker 1: seven minutes back and then back. So I ran somewhere

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Speaker 1: between probably twenty six and twenty seven miles. I can't

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Speaker 1: tell you exactly. Good job. Yeah, you just in you

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Speaker 1: need to have a race off between you and Durkin. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: he is, he is, but I don't. I don't. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you could beat him in a race. Well, yeah, just

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Speaker 1: because of just a pure age thing. We've talked about it.

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Speaker 1: He's not he's not seeds. He's just conceded ahead of

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Speaker 1: and I've run with him and I'd feel like, do

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Speaker 1: you still want to raise the um? No? So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was. It was a lot of fun. Made some

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Speaker 1: new friends, some friends that you actually know. Yeah, Jeremy

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Speaker 1: and our kids, our kids go to school with their kids. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you know. Interesting his um his truck. He was in

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Speaker 1: his house in a big windstorm came in a giant

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Speaker 1: spruce flattened his truck. I did not hear that. You

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Speaker 1: could have been sitting in there texting or something. Man

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Speaker 1: would have been the India for sure. He told me

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Speaker 1: a great story about how is. I think only like,

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Speaker 1: how old is that boy? His tan the same age

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Speaker 1: as my kid bugled in like multiple bulls form last

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Speaker 1: year into archery range. Really yeah one to that story.

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Speaker 1: I'm like, kid, I gotta start training my kids. I'm

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Speaker 1: way behind. That's weird because his kid and my kid,

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Speaker 1: uh recently got an English sparrow and uh she his

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Speaker 1: the guy with that you ran, well, no, she ran

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Speaker 1: with you too. Yeah. She cooked up the little breast

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Speaker 1: filets for him and some butter. But you think that

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Speaker 1: would have inspired him to tell me that story. But

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Speaker 1: he never told me that story. The kid didn't either way,

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Speaker 1: humble young man. Hit everybody with your crraction, okay, um,

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Speaker 1: and then rape phils haircut while you're at him okay,

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Speaker 1: Well yeah, I mean the last time I'll do haircut

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Speaker 1: first last time. Last time. Phils kind of had like

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Speaker 1: a sideways. Yeah, he looked like he looked not quite.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't go that far, but yeah it looks good,

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Speaker 1: looks good and time for summer and short sides. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: solid eight point five, I'd say eight point eight. You go,

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Speaker 1: you running like a number three on the sides there, Phil, Well, here,

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Speaker 1: I've got stick straight here and I hate almost every

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Speaker 1: haircut I get. Uh, so this is like this one. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I don't mean the clip, the clippers. I used to

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Speaker 1: just bring take a number two to my whole head

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Speaker 1: when I was growing up. Um, but now I Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I asked her to go short, shorter on the sides,

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Speaker 1: longer on top. I like, it looks great, Your wife

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Speaker 1: like it. Yeah, that's all that matters, exactly, Thanks Steve.

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Speaker 1: I'm so jealous why we ask Cram what she thinks

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Speaker 1: about it. I've had hair in eight years. I'm so

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Speaker 1: jealous of these young guys running around debating. Yeah, you

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Speaker 1: still got some though. I can see it growing in

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Speaker 1: there just a little bit. But you could grow the

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Speaker 1: you could grow the rim out long, I could grow

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Speaker 1: the scullet, I suppose if if I wanted to go that.

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Speaker 1: I think that when I get there, I'm probably gonna

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Speaker 1: do that. Alright, long, that's that long strip. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: just nothing up front. And you know what, I've heard

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Speaker 1: that called the Kentucky waterfall. I don't know if that's

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Speaker 1: the official PC term, but I like where the correction

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Speaker 1: came from. Yeah, that's that's really the point of me

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Speaker 1: telling this. So in the spirit of being precise and accurate. Um.

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Speaker 1: In our previous episode, when we were talking about dear

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Speaker 1: vehicle collisions, I had mentioned a bunch of Wisconsin counties

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Speaker 1: ranking up top in terms of the number of collisions,

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Speaker 1: and one of them I just completely butchered the pronunciation

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Speaker 1: of it's spelled w a u k e s h A,

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Speaker 1: and I pronounced it wa keisha. And I did say

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Speaker 1: I was probably not saying that correctly. UM. And later

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Speaker 1: I I'm not a huge Instagram user, but on it

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Speaker 1: for for work and such, and so I I saw

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Speaker 1: that I had had a d M. D M Yeah,

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Speaker 1: damn me m hmmm. It was important to that person. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I would think the only reason I'm surprised by

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Speaker 1: that is it seems a good way to have your

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Speaker 1: your correction go unnoticed, all right, something like because you're

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Speaker 1: relying on someone like digging through d M. Yeah, this

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Speaker 1: is a real hail Mary. I mean, you know, when

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Speaker 1: I'm on there, you'll see little notifications. So I paid attention.

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Speaker 1: I paid attention. UM. But I think the moral of

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Speaker 1: the story here is, if you really want your correction

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Speaker 1: to be noted, you should email the meat eater the

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Speaker 1: meteator at the meat eator dot com and put in

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Speaker 1: big capital letters correction. Yeah, actually sorry, it's a meat

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Speaker 1: eater at the Steve people d m me all the

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Speaker 1: time trying to get me to feed ideas to you.

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Speaker 1: They're like, Steve will never see read if if I

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Speaker 1: write to him. But Phil exactly, well, I mean I don't.

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Speaker 1: I don't get too many uh d M so I

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Speaker 1: will pay attention to those that come through. Um. So,

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Speaker 1: the correct pronunciation was pointed out to me in a

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Speaker 1: lovely note from from a listener who made himself known.

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Speaker 1: So it's NFL linebacker for the Jacksonville Jaguars, Joe Shobert.

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Speaker 1: So thanks Joe. Um. He very clearly spelled out how

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Speaker 1: it should be pronounced walk a shaw. He was like,

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Speaker 1: I grew up, I grew up there, and you pronounce

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Speaker 1: it w a l K dash a H dash dash

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Speaker 1: s h a w So I just I was like, wow,

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Speaker 1: that's so clear, and I butchered it. So man, we

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Speaker 1: should uh we should have Maybe you should reach out

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Speaker 1: to him because we were wanting to get that football

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Speaker 1: player that likes to eat squirrels. Maybe he likes eat squirrels,

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Speaker 1: but we should have him one and we could do

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Speaker 1: a thing where we test uh if if he know,

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Speaker 1: like well, we could test my NFL knowledge against his

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Speaker 1: outdoor knowledge. Oh boy, I think we've got a lot

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Speaker 1: of NFL. We could like rate mine on a sliding

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Speaker 1: scale of one. Intend, like rate my NFL knowledge on

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Speaker 1: sliding scale one intended and rate his outdoor knowledge on

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Speaker 1: sliding scale. Would be so you get the highest score.

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Speaker 1: Uh walk a shot sounds like something that we should

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Speaker 1: have Clay nucom say, let Clay pronounce it. Yeah, he

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Speaker 1: would do a good job at him. Uh. He likes

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Speaker 1: those kind of arguments too. A couple of I don't

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Speaker 1: know these are crack Yeah, one kind of correction um

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Speaker 1: and one note. So we we covered last week. We

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Speaker 1: we got to talk for quite a while about fish

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Speaker 1: poaching operation at my home state of Michigan, where these

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Speaker 1: boys got caught with like way too many fish in

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Speaker 1: the freezer. Okay, point there's a couple different points here.

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Speaker 1: One is that so these ones that we're talking about,

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Speaker 1: how in some states, let's say you have a daily

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Speaker 1: bag limit of give me give me something five five.

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Speaker 1: But what so people in the South to try to

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Speaker 1: you don't have wallet try it's a fish. Um. So

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Speaker 1: do you have a daily possession limit of five walleye. No,

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Speaker 1: you have a daily bag limit called daily bag limit

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Speaker 1: of five wallet. And you might notice in your fishing

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Speaker 1: regulations that it says possession limit of two daily bag

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Speaker 1: limits that meaning in your possession you cannot have more

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Speaker 1: than two daily. You can't have any more than ten walleye.

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Speaker 1: But what varies by state to state, what varies from

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Speaker 1: state to state is whether or not what varies from

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Speaker 1: state to state is whether or not it being cleaned

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Speaker 1: and in your freezer counts like in Alaska, it once

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Speaker 1: it's processed and at its final place. So it's like

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Speaker 1: it gets to its sort of final resting place and

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Speaker 1: it's processed, it is no longer part of your daily

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Speaker 1: bag limit or the possession limit. I'm sorry, just keeps

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Speaker 1: screening that up. It's not part of your possession limit. Um.

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Speaker 1: If you're driving home from a fishing trip and you

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Speaker 1: have UH and you're in a you're in this five

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Speaker 1: walleye a day place, you're driving home from a fishing

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Speaker 1: trip and you've got eleven walleye and you're cooler your

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Speaker 1: one walleye over um, But you could get home and

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Speaker 1: put those eleven Walleye and your freezer, and you may

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Speaker 1: or may not be clear, depending on what's going on

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Speaker 1: in your state. I even had I took this question

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Speaker 1: one time to UH trooper in Alaska. They don't have

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Speaker 1: they don't come game wards of the game law are

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Speaker 1: done by state troopers, UM, who you know, kind of

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Speaker 1: have full breadth of enforcement across all laws. But a

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Speaker 1: trooper is telling me. I was like, what if I

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Speaker 1: have a fish shack and I can process and free

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Speaker 1: stuff at my fish shack, but then I want to

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Speaker 1: bring it from my fish shack to home. And he said,

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Speaker 1: and he told me that the way they look at

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Speaker 1: it would be that if I've processed it and got

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Speaker 1: it to you know, it's sort of like final form,

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Speaker 1: and I put it in my freezer at my fish shack,

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Speaker 1: I'm that it's not then part of my possession limit,

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Speaker 1: even though I need to do it, even though I

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Speaker 1: need to transport it again to another home. He says,

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Speaker 1: you're cool, Uh, Texas, it turns out same thing. You're

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Speaker 1: fine once it's in your freezer. Michigan, that's not the case,

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Speaker 1: and uh, and apologies. I have to I have to apologize.

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Speaker 1: A Michigan conservation officer rhote her to say he was

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Speaker 1: pretty disappointed in me for some of my comments about

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Speaker 1: this situation. Uh and and here's where he first off,

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Speaker 1: he goes on to say that that this freezer search,

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Speaker 1: I should probably explain what what it was, right, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: some guys in here on County, Michigan got caught like

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Speaker 1: way to me, fishing the freezer. And they had eighty

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Speaker 1: five bags eighty five bags like ziply bags of perch

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Speaker 1: and wall i with hundreds and you know, way over

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Speaker 1: the possession limit, laid out like a drug bust. One

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Speaker 1: of the things I said, that is warranted here, As

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Speaker 1: I said, I bet you there was more going on,

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Speaker 1: like like it's not like people just show up randomly

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Speaker 1: doing freezer checks, like I was saying, there's probably something

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Speaker 1: that led to this. And and this guy doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to be identified, but this guy said that they had

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Speaker 1: been a hundred and twenty fish over their daily limit,

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Speaker 1: which led them to wanting to have a look in

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Speaker 1: the freezer. So there's that. Do we know what kind

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Speaker 1: of fish and wall and panfish which I gathered to

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Speaker 1: me like sies, bluegills, whatnot. So the guy was the

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Speaker 1: guy's disappointed to me for not condemning having over your

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Speaker 1: bag limit, over your possession limit, and I should I

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Speaker 1: should be clear like that's the case. What I got

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Speaker 1: hung up on. What I got hung up on what

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Speaker 1: I expressed and talked about, was I talked about how

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Speaker 1: common um that practice was and how unaware when I

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Speaker 1: was growing up in that state, how unaware the people

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Speaker 1: I grew up with were about that rule. Just it

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Speaker 1: just wasn't known. I don't think maybe they didn't go

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Speaker 1: out of their way to consider it, but no one.

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Speaker 1: I was never part of a conversation as a kid

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Speaker 1: in Michigan about I can't fish because I already have

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Speaker 1: ten wall I frozen. It just wasn't a thing. And

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Speaker 1: so I expressed that, Man, when I see that, I

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Speaker 1: just see like everybody I grew up with freezer. Um.

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Speaker 1: I didn't mean that to say that I think that

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Speaker 1: it's good. I just meant to say that it's uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, did I I saw something in that, and

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Speaker 1: he was saying that I didn't clearly articulate that it's

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Speaker 1: simply just not acceptable and that the regulations are there

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Speaker 1: for a reason. Correct. I apologize, that's true, don't break

395
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Speaker 1: that law. It's there for a reason, um and not.

396
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Speaker 1: But and when I looked at that, I just couldn't

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Speaker 1: help but think of my dad's friends and and they're

398
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Speaker 1: freezer and they're just complete how shocked they would have

399
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Speaker 1: probably have been to realize that there was that was

400
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Speaker 1: a thing, that's all. Was that good enough? I also

401
00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:56,600
Speaker 1: think the way you said and not but it really

402
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Speaker 1: reveals that you've been married for a while. That was yeah. Yeah, yeah,

403
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,399
Speaker 1: Like I feel that you got like a little too

404
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:11,520
Speaker 1: mad about that situation with the kids. And I'll still

405
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Speaker 1: go to dinner all right there, Yeah, there you go. Um,

406
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Speaker 1: what do you think about that? Just sitting in on

407
00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:21,639
Speaker 1: that apology? I think it was well done. Yeah, I

408
00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,120
Speaker 1: think it was well done. Did feel it felt very diplomatic. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: What I don't want to do is I don't want

410
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Speaker 1: to like grovel, but I want to be like, you're right, dude,

411
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Speaker 1: you're right. Yeah. It was straight up. Okay, it's coming

412
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Speaker 1: from the academic. It's true. Don't like you know what

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Speaker 1: it is, Phil, It's that I took for granted, took

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Speaker 1: for granted that people would understand, don't do that, like,

415
00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:58,040
Speaker 1: don't do that right, don't go like follow your state laws,

416
00:24:58,119 --> 00:25:02,640
Speaker 1: like just follow the state laws. Yeah, um, I mean

417
00:25:02,680 --> 00:25:07,199
Speaker 1: you've also never said otherwise, you don't practice otherwise, so

418
00:25:07,520 --> 00:25:10,680
Speaker 1: I know, but but but but I could see that. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I wasn't he his thing that I was like making

420
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Speaker 1: light of it, And I was just more like, wow,

421
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Speaker 1: I was telling you before the show. I picked up

422
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Speaker 1: on the same vibes he was. He was picking up

423
00:25:20,160 --> 00:25:23,120
Speaker 1: just like it's sort of even though this you just said,

424
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Speaker 1: this isn't what you were saying. It was sort of

425
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 1: like we did that, like not we but you know,

426
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:30,120
Speaker 1: I knew people did did this all the time growing up. Yeah,

427
00:25:30,200 --> 00:25:33,520
Speaker 1: it's it's whatever. That's sort of the vibe I got. Really, Yeah,

428
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 1: why don't you flag it? At the time, Phil do

429
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:39,199
Speaker 1: your show? Man, you couldn't see I couldn't see what

430
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,719
Speaker 1: was going on in your That's right. My eyes are

431
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 1: open now though. Oh that was taking you to no idea?

432
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:51,440
Speaker 1: What was going on? Man? What else about possession limits?

433
00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:55,600
Speaker 1: Were were were gonna talk about? Oh? I know, I was

434
00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:03,920
Speaker 1: gonna talk about, um, just observation. So uh, last night

435
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:09,520
Speaker 1: we fished. We fished for some brook trout and that

436
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:12,240
Speaker 1: was the native trout you know growing up in Michigan,

437
00:26:12,359 --> 00:26:14,800
Speaker 1: speaking of bring full circle to Michigan does a native

438
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:19,359
Speaker 1: trout and here in many parts of the West, Like

439
00:26:19,760 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 1: when was all that going on when people are turning

440
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,440
Speaker 1: brook trout loose? I think around the turn of the century,

441
00:26:25,240 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 1: you know, it was back and like the mindset was like, hey,

442
00:26:27,240 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: more fish than merrier, you know, if they'll live there

443
00:26:29,320 --> 00:26:33,760
Speaker 1: and put them there, and uh they put They introduced

444
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:36,320
Speaker 1: brook trout in a lot of these rivers out here,

445
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,359
Speaker 1: the same thing they introduced rainbow trout and brown trout.

446
00:26:40,680 --> 00:26:44,199
Speaker 1: But brook trout are kind of like more accustomed to

447
00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,879
Speaker 1: these small, fast flowing, kind of nutrient poor, high elevation

448
00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:54,919
Speaker 1: rivers and the yeah, they compete more aggressively with the

449
00:26:55,040 --> 00:26:58,720
Speaker 1: native trout here, which is the cutthroat trout um an

450
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:02,159
Speaker 1: eastern cutthroat east slope cutthroat trout, Like east of the

451
00:27:02,200 --> 00:27:06,879
Speaker 1: Content divide, cut throat trout are hurting bad. Um. So

452
00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 1: there's a lot of rivers where you can't keep a

453
00:27:09,920 --> 00:27:12,400
Speaker 1: lot of these streams around here in rivers in this district,

454
00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:16,879
Speaker 1: like you can't keep cutthroat out of the river. But

455
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,960
Speaker 1: brook trout, which were introduced on purpose, but now they're frowned.

456
00:27:22,000 --> 00:27:25,840
Speaker 1: Their presence is frowned upon. You're allowed twenty a day.

457
00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,440
Speaker 1: So you could imagine we talk about the importance of

458
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:32,480
Speaker 1: looking at your legs, right, you can imagine a situation

459
00:27:32,920 --> 00:27:37,479
Speaker 1: where someone would be h up in a stream fishing around,

460
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,520
Speaker 1: and you need to understand that that one, you can

461
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:46,120
Speaker 1: have twenty of that one with a few spots difference

462
00:27:46,440 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 1: that one none at all. So luckily they're pretty easy

463
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,080
Speaker 1: to tell a part, that's all. Yeah, Byron was asking

464
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 1: about that, or someone was asking about that they're worried about,

465
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 1: and I'm like, yeah, you know, you know, just give

466
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:04,800
Speaker 1: it a good look. Bring your trout chart. You know

467
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:11,480
Speaker 1: what what sort of tackle were you catching him with? Uh?

468
00:28:11,800 --> 00:28:14,359
Speaker 1: Me personally? Well, yeah, you and the crew that you

469
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: were with, you take kids, you know, there's just a

470
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:19,560
Speaker 1: couple of work people. Because we had like a meeting

471
00:28:19,600 --> 00:28:25,000
Speaker 1: and then went into that. Um we had fly poles.

472
00:28:26,080 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 1: My wife want to try to catch one on a

473
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:31,399
Speaker 1: fly rod, which she gave up on that, uh, and

474
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:33,919
Speaker 1: then I showed her how to huk a worm out

475
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:38,160
Speaker 1: there and let it sit and started railing on him.

476
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:43,840
Speaker 1: Still water, no beaver ponds still yeah, well that and

477
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,600
Speaker 1: moving water. But there's a big hole, big deep area

478
00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,880
Speaker 1: behind a beaver up above a beaver dam, and they

479
00:28:51,920 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 1: were in there. It was hot, probably down trying to

480
00:28:55,080 --> 00:28:59,240
Speaker 1: cool off down there A lot them down in there. Um,

481
00:28:59,400 --> 00:29:04,240
Speaker 1: here's an inner us. The thing we're talking about avian

482
00:29:04,600 --> 00:29:09,160
Speaker 1: raptors killing livestock. Someone must have brought in about this.

483
00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:13,880
Speaker 1: The New Zealand Kia make his noise, Johnny. You know,

484
00:29:14,000 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 1: I listened to a few on YouTube this morning, and uh,

485
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,320
Speaker 1: they're pretty similar to a cow elk if you take

486
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:26,640
Speaker 1: out like the first continant, I guess instead of just

487
00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 1: being like a yeah, it's like a kieah yeah yeah,

488
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,320
Speaker 1: and then you know, depending on what they're saying, it's

489
00:29:34,400 --> 00:29:39,239
Speaker 1: louder or you know, back and forth. But yeah, we are.

490
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:42,160
Speaker 1: We experienced keys when we were in New Zealand, and

491
00:29:42,200 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 1: we were always told we did a bunch of backpacking

492
00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 1: and there you instead of beinging Tansey to stay in

493
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 1: these huts that are all over the place on this

494
00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 1: these trail systems. And what's those huts again? I can't remember.

495
00:29:55,440 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 1: Do they have a specific social name. Yeah, they're cool though, Yeah,

496
00:29:58,560 --> 00:30:02,080
Speaker 1: they're great in American the trash him. Yeah, I think

497
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 1: I've told that story about how we were hiking. We

498
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:06,640
Speaker 1: had Americans ahead of us, and they were trashing the

499
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:10,280
Speaker 1: cabins ahead of us. Was it was terrible anyways, not all,

500
00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:11,840
Speaker 1: but a lot of Mary's don't know what to do

501
00:30:11,880 --> 00:30:14,560
Speaker 1: with the situation, like that it's too good to be true,

502
00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 1: so screw it up. Uh yeah, free cabin. What's he's

503
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,720
Speaker 1: done with firewood left behind? There's gotta be a catch

504
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,640
Speaker 1: a graffiti. But no, the tip that was given to

505
00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:33,880
Speaker 1: us was like that they will they like shiny objects

506
00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 1: and they'll mess with stuff. So when we would leave

507
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: to go fishing for the day, like don't leave you know,

508
00:30:38,960 --> 00:30:41,880
Speaker 1: anything out on a deck or somewhere, because they if

509
00:30:41,920 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: they can actually get it away, they will just to

510
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: like mess with it and play with it. But they'll

511
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,560
Speaker 1: also just sit there and peck at it and mess

512
00:30:48,600 --> 00:30:50,520
Speaker 1: with it. And you could have, you know, a hole

513
00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: in your backpack or you know, a fly reel completely

514
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:58,000
Speaker 1: ripped apart. And like they said that they will actually

515
00:30:58,000 --> 00:31:00,480
Speaker 1: get into stuff and just make a mess and whatever.

516
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:04,720
Speaker 1: So we were very conscious of tucking away things. But

517
00:31:04,840 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: beautiful bird an alpine parrot. I feel like maybe when

518
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,200
Speaker 1: I was there, I feel like maybe we saw him,

519
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:12,959
Speaker 1: but I didn't really it didn't really register with me

520
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:14,400
Speaker 1: that it's I mean, this thing looks like a full

521
00:31:14,440 --> 00:31:17,440
Speaker 1: on parrot, red green, and here he is flying across

522
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:20,000
Speaker 1: the snow field up in the mountains, an alpine parrot.

523
00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,440
Speaker 1: But they'll they'll kill lambs, they'll kill lambs and feet

524
00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: on sheet. Yeah, they like land on the back, this

525
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:33,080
Speaker 1: guy said. They they land on the back and then

526
00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:36,480
Speaker 1: kind of peck through the wool and peck into the

527
00:31:36,520 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: back fat, peck into the fat around the the kidneys.

528
00:31:42,920 --> 00:31:47,640
Speaker 1: And uh, it's it's been a big deal. What a

529
00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:52,440
Speaker 1: way to go. An alpine parrot backs through to your kidneys.

530
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,160
Speaker 1: Probably didn't see that coming. Like, no one's gonna believe

531
00:31:55,160 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: this much. People ask you, what happened to my kidney?

532
00:31:57,680 --> 00:32:02,120
Speaker 1: No one's gonna believe me. Um. They have some interesting

533
00:32:02,400 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: classifications in New Zealand. They had the bird had a

534
00:32:05,520 --> 00:32:11,040
Speaker 1: classification UM at one point in time as naturally uncommon,

535
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: which is an interesting classification if you think about it.

536
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,160
Speaker 1: That's a good one, like you would have you know,

537
00:32:18,200 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 1: it would be applied to um all right, you see

538
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:24,200
Speaker 1: it apply to wolverines, right like, just naturally uncommon. Never

539
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 1: were many, aren't many? But then they bumped it in two,

540
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:33,680
Speaker 1: they bumped it to uh nationally endangered but like naturally

541
00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: uncommon as a way of describing certain species, and the

542
00:32:39,000 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: sheep rejoice. Yeah, yeah, it's a good bad day for

543
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,840
Speaker 1: Kia's good day for sheep. I want to cover off

544
00:32:46,840 --> 00:32:50,920
Speaker 1: on one last cist. We kind of officially put this

545
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: to rest, but then the guy wrote in, like, off,

546
00:32:54,400 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 1: I find that if you say like, okay, we're not

547
00:32:56,200 --> 00:32:57,960
Speaker 1: talking about I just have to say that's a common

548
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,520
Speaker 1: story on this podcast. Okay, we're never talking about this again.

549
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,680
Speaker 1: Because then someone just wrote in but people, Yeah, I

550
00:33:03,680 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: think a guy out here like they're not talking about anymore.

551
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,880
Speaker 1: And then he'll be like, oh yeah, wait to hear

552
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 1: about my daughter's sister. And then and then they send

553
00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:18,400
Speaker 1: in pictures, so we're talking about these sisters. I was

554
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 1: talking about this create like that my brother had a

555
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:23,640
Speaker 1: girlfriendnamed the Tower of Power and she had his sister

556
00:33:23,760 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: moving and head teeth in it, and it's this whole thing.

557
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:31,520
Speaker 1: So this guy, he doesn't want to say who he is.

558
00:33:31,560 --> 00:33:33,840
Speaker 1: He doesn't want to humiliate his daughter, which I respect.

559
00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:37,280
Speaker 1: His daughter had to go and have one of these

560
00:33:37,280 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: dermoid sisters removed from her abdomen, he sent in a

561
00:33:40,000 --> 00:33:43,960
Speaker 1: picture of it to back it up. Goodness, sixteen pounder,

562
00:33:45,160 --> 00:33:50,400
Speaker 1: a sixteen pounder. The doctor's hands are holding it and

563
00:33:50,440 --> 00:33:54,360
Speaker 1: it's as though he's holding a deer fawn, but it's

564
00:33:54,400 --> 00:34:01,640
Speaker 1: not spotted or brown. That's hard to look at, sixteen pounder. Yeah,

565
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:06,200
Speaker 1: to look at now, if you'd have done an unboxing

566
00:34:06,320 --> 00:34:10,880
Speaker 1: video of that sixteen pounder where they open it up

567
00:34:10,920 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: and see what's in there, teeth and jaws and whatnot,

568
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:18,239
Speaker 1: that would have gotten that little filter they put on

569
00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:21,359
Speaker 1: there that says sensitive content, you would be the first

570
00:34:21,360 --> 00:34:27,200
Speaker 1: to like and subscribe that. I'd like unfollowed the wild

571
00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:29,800
Speaker 1: Turkey Dock and just follow that side. I was gonna

572
00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:35,880
Speaker 1: say no more. Nature is metal. Every day he digs

573
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,200
Speaker 1: a little deeper into that cest and just makes an

574
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 1: Instagram channel out of it. I would be enraptured. Someone

575
00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:44,040
Speaker 1: who wants, and I do profile to really blow up

576
00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:49,040
Speaker 1: it should be. Yeah, it's really I'm sure that exists already.

577
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: You have that removed and you just lost sixteen pounds. Man,

578
00:34:57,040 --> 00:34:58,920
Speaker 1: I almost want to know a little more backstory, Like

579
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:02,360
Speaker 1: you think something like that must have been messing with

580
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:06,640
Speaker 1: her health. Oh, he doesn't really lay out he just

581
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 1: kind of gets to the cold, hard facts. But there's

582
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:10,440
Speaker 1: got it. Yeah, I mean just gotta be like it

583
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,840
Speaker 1: can't be like, oh wow, I didn't know. I was

584
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,279
Speaker 1: gonna say, what's what's the timeframe on how quickly do

585
00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:19,080
Speaker 1: these things grow? Before they finally made the call. Okay,

586
00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 1: let's let's get rid of this thing. You know what,

587
00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:22,840
Speaker 1: We'll never know, folks, We're not gonna talk about it anymore.

588
00:35:22,960 --> 00:35:26,359
Speaker 1: Great points to you know what, when we have next

589
00:35:26,400 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: time we have Adam Lazar on, maybe he could do

590
00:35:29,640 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 1: like a quick final word on dermoid SIPs man. I

591
00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: was not I was not expecting pictures of giant sis

592
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:39,640
Speaker 1: this morning. Have you seen this picture? I just looked

593
00:35:39,680 --> 00:35:44,799
Speaker 1: at it. It's I'm pretty pros if you don't. If

594
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 1: you showed me that picture, I would and you said, like,

595
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:51,640
Speaker 1: what are you looking at? I would say it must

596
00:35:51,840 --> 00:35:56,960
Speaker 1: be a someone had a baby and they put the

597
00:35:56,960 --> 00:36:00,279
Speaker 1: baby back in the placenta and took a picture of it. Yeah,

598
00:36:00,280 --> 00:36:04,200
Speaker 1: it looks like a fetus. Sure I wish I could

599
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:07,759
Speaker 1: do that. Can you do that? Philm We're like like

600
00:36:07,840 --> 00:36:16,280
Speaker 1: a like a wow, sure, no, that's more. I completely

601
00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:19,440
Speaker 1: understand why why you don't want to talk about this again,

602
00:36:19,600 --> 00:36:22,120
Speaker 1: but that it keeps coming up. Oh, because this is great.

603
00:36:22,320 --> 00:36:24,800
Speaker 1: Oh no, it's it's a it's a it's titillating. Yeah,

604
00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:28,320
Speaker 1: it's classic train wreck. What's this, Scott speaking of titillating,

605
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:32,040
Speaker 1: let's talking about hunting fishing in the New South, Oh transition.

606
00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,759
Speaker 1: So hit me with hit us with what the book,

607
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:46,239
Speaker 1: Hit us with the book. I mean, it's funny that

608
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,439
Speaker 1: it's such an old book that we're here talking about it. Yeah,

609
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:51,759
Speaker 1: part I don't know about it until. I think. Part

610
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 1: of that has to do with, you know, like I

611
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,800
Speaker 1: said at you know, at the beginning, you know, started

612
00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 1: teaching at a small private college, and all of a sudden,

613
00:36:59,840 --> 00:37:01,280
Speaker 1: all the time I thought I was gonna be spending

614
00:37:01,320 --> 00:37:03,720
Speaker 1: researching and writing, it's just time I spent teaching and

615
00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,520
Speaker 1: doing administrative work and things like that. But part of

616
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,760
Speaker 1: it is I didn't know my ass from my elbow

617
00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:11,000
Speaker 1: when I when I published the book, and I didn't

618
00:37:11,040 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 1: really know how to you know, how to promote it.

619
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,319
Speaker 1: And the mistake I made at the time, I think,

620
00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: was to you know, ship it out to people academics

621
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,040
Speaker 1: who were studying these topics. To be honest with you,

622
00:37:21,080 --> 00:37:24,080
Speaker 1: It never occurred to me to try to connect directly

623
00:37:24,160 --> 00:37:26,040
Speaker 1: with the hunting and fishing community. It just never go on.

624
00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 1: So Field and Stream didn't do a little letter to

625
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 1: the editor about it or yeah, and then you know

626
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 1: the press, you know, they basically they didn't say this,

627
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 1: but I think the implication was, Okay, you know, first

628
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:40,879
Speaker 1: time academic, you know, publishing academic. Uh, you know, we

629
00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:43,680
Speaker 1: do support and promotional work and lots and lots of

630
00:37:43,719 --> 00:37:46,879
Speaker 1: aggressive stuff for people that are established, so good luck

631
00:37:46,920 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: with that. I didn't know what I was doing, and

632
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:51,000
Speaker 1: by then I was focused on teaching more and just

633
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: sort of did some local events and didn't worry about it.

634
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, in hindsight, I wish I had

635
00:37:57,000 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 1: been a lot more aggressive with getting it out there.

636
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 1: Is most your work as a historian, you focused on sports, yea,

637
00:38:03,719 --> 00:38:07,040
Speaker 1: you know they allowed you to do that. Well that

638
00:38:07,040 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: that that's kind of that's kind of an interesting, you know,

639
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: backstory of how I stumbled into the topic because when

640
00:38:12,640 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: I was finishing college, I thought I was gonna gonna

641
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:16,880
Speaker 1: go to graduate school and and you know, I didn't

642
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,200
Speaker 1: know much about the profession of history and some of

643
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:23,080
Speaker 1: these you know, novel topics that I thought would be great.

644
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:25,960
Speaker 1: People haven't written on this, of course they had, you know,

645
00:38:26,000 --> 00:38:27,840
Speaker 1: I thought, okay, it would be kind of fresh to

646
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:30,200
Speaker 1: study sports. No, it's not fresh to study sports. Plenty

647
00:38:30,200 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: of people study sports, and plenty of people historians who

648
00:38:33,120 --> 00:38:36,319
Speaker 1: focus on sports. Yeah, exactly, and and I didn't realize that.

649
00:38:36,440 --> 00:38:40,319
Speaker 1: And uh, for a lot of more traditional academics, you know,

650
00:38:40,360 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 1: studying sports is and it's a little frowned on. It's

651
00:38:43,320 --> 00:38:47,160
Speaker 1: seen as frivolous or you know, academics can be elitist,

652
00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:52,000
Speaker 1: you know, d bags sometimes. Yeah, amazingly not me though,

653
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 1: of course I don't want to lean into that. Um,

654
00:38:54,880 --> 00:38:56,520
Speaker 1: I don't want to lean into this too. I don't

655
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 1: know why I just said that we have all kinds

656
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,040
Speaker 1: of academics on. But I guess we just filter filter

657
00:39:02,080 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 1: all the bad ones. I don't know. You know, do

658
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:05,839
Speaker 1: you talk to an academic and think he's just not right?

659
00:39:06,200 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: Did he's a d bag? Rin? Um? No, I don't

660
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:15,279
Speaker 1: think we've I haven't had that experience yet for this podcast.

661
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:19,080
Speaker 1: But everybody seems to have a story that they heard

662
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:26,920
Speaker 1: about an academic elitist or the act community being elitist

663
00:39:27,080 --> 00:39:30,439
Speaker 1: in person. Absolutely, but like for this podcast, I think

664
00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 1: we just we just have a kind of a good

665
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:37,440
Speaker 1: But it's one of those things that yeah, but it

666
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,640
Speaker 1: is one of those things that everybody's like, oh, yeah,

667
00:39:39,840 --> 00:39:42,600
Speaker 1: those pretentious But then I just the more I think

668
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,879
Speaker 1: about it, it hasn't been my finding. I was recently saying,

669
00:39:45,920 --> 00:39:47,560
Speaker 1: I don't know if I said it here, but if

670
00:39:47,560 --> 00:39:50,560
Speaker 1: there's one story Americans like, it's a story about a

671
00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 1: celebrity who was an asshole. And if there's another story,

672
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,000
Speaker 1: they like, it's about a celebrity who did something really nice.

673
00:39:57,960 --> 00:40:01,359
Speaker 1: But in that order, they prefer one about like, Oh,

674
00:40:01,440 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: I met him and he was horrible. He was yelling

675
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,160
Speaker 1: at a waiter. But then the other one would be, oh,

676
00:40:07,160 --> 00:40:09,640
Speaker 1: when he gave the kid twenty dollars. Like people love

677
00:40:09,680 --> 00:40:12,359
Speaker 1: those stories, you know, and people love a good story

678
00:40:12,360 --> 00:40:16,080
Speaker 1: about a bad academic. Yeah, And you know, it makes

679
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:17,919
Speaker 1: me wonder when when you went around the room and said,

680
00:40:18,000 --> 00:40:19,520
Speaker 1: I don't know that I've come across a love of

681
00:40:19,600 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: academics who are d bags. It reminded me the old

682
00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:25,000
Speaker 1: expression that that if you don't know who the office

683
00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:29,759
Speaker 1: asshole is, it's probably you. So so maybe hey, you

684
00:40:29,760 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 1: know what, I uh just pardon me for one second,

685
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 1: because you might already know this. But when I was

686
00:40:34,239 --> 00:40:36,399
Speaker 1: reading the other day I was reading, I went down

687
00:40:36,400 --> 00:40:40,120
Speaker 1: this kind of like research. I had to research something,

688
00:40:40,160 --> 00:40:42,000
Speaker 1: and that let me to wonder about something else, and

689
00:40:42,000 --> 00:40:45,839
Speaker 1: that let me to wonder about something else. Um, I'll

690
00:40:45,840 --> 00:40:47,400
Speaker 1: tell you a quick what I was doing. I was

691
00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,359
Speaker 1: reading about, you know, the guy we bought a lask Off,

692
00:40:51,000 --> 00:40:54,040
Speaker 1: the one of the roman Offs. This is Alexander to

693
00:40:54,080 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: the second. The Russians are like, we bought a lask

694
00:40:56,520 --> 00:41:00,719
Speaker 1: Off film his kid in eighteen seventy two for his

695
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: twenty second birthday, came out and hunted buffalo with Buffalo

696
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 1: Bill Cody and Custer went on a hunting trip and

697
00:41:11,200 --> 00:41:14,520
Speaker 1: then Buffalo Bill Cody get that like shortly after got

698
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 1: a Congressional Medal of Honor in the Indian Wars. It

699
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 1: was then rescinded and then given back to him. But

700
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 1: that got me reading about, uh, why they sold us

701
00:41:24,640 --> 00:41:27,520
Speaker 1: Alaska in the first place. And you know that It's

702
00:41:27,560 --> 00:41:29,759
Speaker 1: like how when you learn about that, you learn about

703
00:41:29,760 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 1: the Seward's folly, Seward's ice box. That that because like

704
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:35,719
Speaker 1: Seward was the guy on the US and did the

705
00:41:35,760 --> 00:41:38,759
Speaker 1: purchase and you always hear that people that he was

706
00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 1: ridiculed and lampooned for buying Alaska, and people like to

707
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:45,319
Speaker 1: point out like and look, no right, but uh, this

708
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:46,920
Speaker 1: his story was saying that is one of like the

709
00:41:47,040 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 1: undying myths in American history was that it was ridiculed

710
00:41:51,320 --> 00:41:55,200
Speaker 1: and lampooned. And he went and looked at newspaper editorials.

711
00:41:55,239 --> 00:41:59,960
Speaker 1: He found like fifty newspaper editorials about the purchase, forty

712
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:05,840
Speaker 1: nine were overwhelmingly positive. Public opinion was overwhelmingly positive. But

713
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:10,520
Speaker 1: some guy throughout like the Seward's ice box thing, and

714
00:42:10,600 --> 00:42:12,960
Speaker 1: people latched onto it, and he said, you can't kill

715
00:42:13,040 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 1: the myth that Americans. You can't kill the myth that

716
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,960
Speaker 1: somehow Americans didn't want Alaska like they wanted it bad,

717
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:23,960
Speaker 1: and the Rooski's sold it to us because they were

718
00:42:23,960 --> 00:42:27,200
Speaker 1: in a fight with They were always worn with Britain,

719
00:42:28,320 --> 00:42:30,719
Speaker 1: and they knew that with the British presence in Canada

720
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:32,560
Speaker 1: that the next time they got to fight, they'd lose

721
00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:34,640
Speaker 1: Alaska anyways, and so they just wanted to dump it

722
00:42:34,640 --> 00:42:36,279
Speaker 1: on us because we'd be able to hang onto it

723
00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,480
Speaker 1: and they didn't want to have to deal with that.

724
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:43,759
Speaker 1: So anyways, hunting, fishing in the New South. So you

725
00:42:43,800 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 1: were interested in sports. Yeah, I thought I was gonna

726
00:42:47,000 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: study sports, and when I went to grad school this

727
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:54,200
Speaker 1: sort of uh sports. Another guy wants to do baseball,

728
00:42:54,280 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 1: and I have interesting idea. I'm sure you do, but baseball?

729
00:42:57,040 --> 00:42:58,719
Speaker 1: Come on, you know, can you can you help us

730
00:42:58,800 --> 00:43:02,279
Speaker 1: understand if you're gonna do sports as a historian, what

731
00:43:02,560 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: does that mean? Like like, you know, like baseball, like

732
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 1: what aspect of it? Right? Well, you know, it's it's

733
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:09,760
Speaker 1: really about the kind of the social and cultural implications.

734
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:12,680
Speaker 1: What larger connections you know, can you draw? Basically For me,

735
00:43:12,719 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: I always tell people that, you know, we try to

736
00:43:15,200 --> 00:43:18,600
Speaker 1: think of what historians do is as a mirror, you know,

737
00:43:18,640 --> 00:43:22,399
Speaker 1: So what kind of refracting mirror can you get to

738
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:25,879
Speaker 1: to demonstrate you know, larger social truths, you know, by

739
00:43:25,920 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 1: one specific topic. And you know, I think the academics

740
00:43:29,480 --> 00:43:31,399
Speaker 1: have a tendency to be really elitist and they think,

741
00:43:31,440 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: you know, I've actually heard academics say this at conferences.

742
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:38,360
Speaker 1: I I when I did a panel on my book

743
00:43:38,880 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 1: a number of years ago, somebody said, I don't know,

744
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: I just I just don't get the topic. I mean,

745
00:43:46,239 --> 00:43:49,520
Speaker 1: it's interesting because a lot of people hunt. But just

746
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:51,960
Speaker 1: because a whole bunch of people are really into something,

747
00:43:52,040 --> 00:43:54,120
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean it's worthy of study. And I said, well,

748
00:43:54,160 --> 00:43:55,840
Speaker 1: I think you need to think about what you just said.

749
00:43:56,600 --> 00:43:58,359
Speaker 1: You know, if if if a whole bunch of people

750
00:43:58,360 --> 00:44:01,360
Speaker 1: are into something, it's by definition worthy of study. And

751
00:44:01,400 --> 00:44:03,439
Speaker 1: who are you know? And historians are famous for sort

752
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:07,080
Speaker 1: of declaring certain topics acceptable and unacceptable. You back up

753
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 1: the president of diplomats, kings, popes, generals, that's what we study.

754
00:44:13,560 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 1: You know, if you just said, let's study the environment,

755
00:44:15,600 --> 00:44:18,400
Speaker 1: let's study women, let's study sports, they would have said, why,

756
00:44:18,480 --> 00:44:23,000
Speaker 1: you know, what's the point of that, Just because everybody

757
00:44:23,000 --> 00:44:25,680
Speaker 1: in the world loves this stuff, and you know, and

758
00:44:25,719 --> 00:44:27,760
Speaker 1: what the funny thing is And this is maybe off topic,

759
00:44:27,800 --> 00:44:30,440
Speaker 1: but one of the complaints I have about the discipline

760
00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:36,279
Speaker 1: of history is when people indulge that like, well, okay, sports, okay,

761
00:44:36,320 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 1: it's popular, but let's let's study something more important. What

762
00:44:39,760 --> 00:44:42,440
Speaker 1: that does is it removes historians further and further away

763
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,719
Speaker 1: from the lived experiences of real people and makes them

764
00:44:45,800 --> 00:44:49,200
Speaker 1: less relevant. And then people wonder, you know, why people

765
00:44:49,200 --> 00:44:51,560
Speaker 1: don't read books anymore? You know, so it's sort of like,

766
00:44:51,600 --> 00:44:54,640
Speaker 1: in my mind, it's embrace the things that are popular.

767
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,760
Speaker 1: If they're popular, that means they're culturally resonant, and it matters.

768
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:00,919
Speaker 1: So part of the reason, like a lot of people

769
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:03,000
Speaker 1: like you know, kind of have you know, didn't exactly

770
00:45:03,120 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 1: cruise through grad school. It got to be kind of

771
00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:07,799
Speaker 1: a drag after a while finishing the dissertation. But one

772
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:09,080
Speaker 1: of the things that kept me going every time I

773
00:45:09,160 --> 00:45:11,520
Speaker 1: run across someone who would say, oh god, you're hunting

774
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:13,400
Speaker 1: and fishing, I'd be like, all right, let's let's finish

775
00:45:13,480 --> 00:45:15,759
Speaker 1: this thing. Sure, just to show I'm gonna steal the

776
00:45:15,840 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 1: argument you just made for when I retired, I write

777
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:22,440
Speaker 1: a book, anti Shakespeare book. I'm gonna kind of adapt

778
00:45:22,480 --> 00:45:25,799
Speaker 1: that argument from my anti Shakespeare book. That sounds removing

779
00:45:25,880 --> 00:45:28,759
Speaker 1: people from things they can even like removing kids at

780
00:45:28,760 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 1: an early age, introducing them to the idea of reading

781
00:45:32,680 --> 00:45:35,759
Speaker 1: things they'll never understand. Yeah, and you know, and and

782
00:45:36,160 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 1: relate to you use the best example, I think too,

783
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,240
Speaker 1: because I hear this all the time. You know, people

784
00:45:40,280 --> 00:45:43,480
Speaker 1: bring up Shakespeare and they'll say, well, what most people

785
00:45:43,520 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 1: don't understand that the voice they would use and they say,

786
00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: but no, yeah, exactly, I've heard enough time. Not that

787
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:51,680
Speaker 1: it doesn't come naturally to me obviously, but but I

788
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,120
Speaker 1: can fake it. I can fake me anti bag um.

789
00:45:55,160 --> 00:45:57,239
Speaker 1: What most people would say, at least the kind of

790
00:45:57,320 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 1: arrogant academics as they would say, well, what you need

791
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: to understand end is that Shakespeare was was consumed by

792
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,919
Speaker 1: the masses. It was art for the average person back then.

793
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 1: That that that means it would have been great for them.

794
00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:11,120
Speaker 1: Exactly was it was great for the average people back then?

795
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,279
Speaker 1: And and what I tell him is what we do

796
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,359
Speaker 1: this is we don't do that exactly. So it's like

797
00:46:16,600 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 1: you're saying we should study Shakespeare because the average person

798
00:46:19,760 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: really connected with that at the time. Well, my thought

799
00:46:22,080 --> 00:46:24,480
Speaker 1: would then be, what does the average person connect with now?

800
00:46:25,040 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: And let's study that. You know. So, I mean I

801
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:30,600
Speaker 1: like Shakespeare, don't get me wrong, but but I don't

802
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,000
Speaker 1: think the idea holes that. You know, the sort of

803
00:46:33,239 --> 00:46:35,760
Speaker 1: division between high and low culture always sort of ticked

804
00:46:35,760 --> 00:46:38,680
Speaker 1: me off as as an historian. So because if you're

805
00:46:38,719 --> 00:46:40,960
Speaker 1: if you're not studying history to study people, what what

806
00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: the heck are you doing for? But you don't, you don't, Uh,

807
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:46,359
Speaker 1: there's not like a movement of like populous historians are

808
00:46:46,400 --> 00:46:50,120
Speaker 1: there there, Yeah, there actually is. Um. Actually, part of

809
00:46:50,120 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 1: the reason I have a kind of the outlook on

810
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:54,440
Speaker 1: history that I do is I went to grad school

811
00:46:54,440 --> 00:46:57,759
Speaker 1: at the University of Pittsburgh, and uh, there's a there's

812
00:46:57,800 --> 00:47:00,239
Speaker 1: a movement in in in the discipline of history that's

813
00:47:00,239 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 1: been going on now for the past thirty or forty

814
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:06,080
Speaker 1: years called history from Below, and it's it's emphasizing you know,

815
00:47:06,120 --> 00:47:10,360
Speaker 1: working class people and uh, cultural traditions and political movements

816
00:47:10,360 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 1: that start from the bottom as opposed to from the top,

817
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:15,520
Speaker 1: and looking at history not from that old perspective of kings,

818
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,960
Speaker 1: princess generals, but but the average person. Marcus Reddicker and

819
00:47:19,000 --> 00:47:20,920
Speaker 1: a few other professors that I had when I was

820
00:47:20,960 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 1: at PIT were proponents of that, and that's sort of

821
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:25,759
Speaker 1: where I come from. I try to, you know, try

822
00:47:25,800 --> 00:47:28,360
Speaker 1: to not be one of those academics that's studying something

823
00:47:28,360 --> 00:47:32,040
Speaker 1: that's completely esoteric or you know, completely irrelevant to people's lives.

824
00:47:32,040 --> 00:47:34,000
Speaker 1: Although people would tell me that for them, maybe this

825
00:47:34,120 --> 00:47:38,760
Speaker 1: topics irrelevant, but it's definitely not, you know, high culture.

826
00:47:38,800 --> 00:47:40,440
Speaker 1: Is what I'm trying, is what I'm sure to avoid

827
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,000
Speaker 1: or at least an exclusionary high culture. So how did

828
00:47:43,000 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: you how did you tell us how you hit on

829
00:47:45,640 --> 00:47:50,160
Speaker 1: the idea eventually as you as you explored the sports landscape. Well,

830
00:47:50,200 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: I I knew I wanted to stick to sports because

831
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,120
Speaker 1: it was just something I was really into and I

832
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:57,800
Speaker 1: and I really rejected that idea that because sports is

833
00:47:57,840 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 1: so popular that it must not be worthy of study.

834
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 1: That seem backwards to me. But I did recognize that

835
00:48:02,480 --> 00:48:04,719
Speaker 1: I gotta I gotta shift gears a little bit. And

836
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:08,799
Speaker 1: I took a seminar on slavery, and I had the

837
00:48:08,840 --> 00:48:10,600
Speaker 1: idea of maybe i'll, you know, I'll do a research

838
00:48:10,640 --> 00:48:12,960
Speaker 1: paper on slaves and sports. And the professor teaching the

839
00:48:13,000 --> 00:48:15,000
Speaker 1: class said, well, the best place to go there are

840
00:48:15,040 --> 00:48:18,319
Speaker 1: the Works Progress Administration slave interviews. You know, in the

841
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:20,919
Speaker 1: in the thirties, twenties and thirties, there was a part

842
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 1: of the you know, the h Worst Progress Administration w

843
00:48:23,680 --> 00:48:26,560
Speaker 1: p A. Uh they sent uh interviewers all over the

844
00:48:26,560 --> 00:48:29,080
Speaker 1: country to interview former slaves before they passed away because

845
00:48:29,080 --> 00:48:32,319
Speaker 1: they were pretty old by then. And UH, he said,

846
00:48:32,360 --> 00:48:34,000
Speaker 1: you know, reading knows is going to be your best

847
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:36,200
Speaker 1: bet if there's mentions of slaves and sports. I thought,

848
00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: maybe i'd find stuff about boxing, you know, so when

849
00:48:38,960 --> 00:48:40,600
Speaker 1: you start looking at the slavery, you were still looking

850
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:43,480
Speaker 1: at sport, looking at what I don't know, like I

851
00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:48,480
Speaker 1: guess the definition of sports? Yeah, games? Yeah, how how

852
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,359
Speaker 1: did does the slave system you know allow for that?

853
00:48:51,560 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 1: And you know, I had been kind of really interested

854
00:48:54,200 --> 00:48:56,840
Speaker 1: into certain certain stories there. For example, there was a

855
00:48:56,840 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: slave boxer named Tom Mullineux who actually was was sent

856
00:49:01,600 --> 00:49:04,160
Speaker 1: overseas to England by his master, and he actually fought

857
00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:08,000
Speaker 1: the British champion uh in a in a very publicized

858
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:10,919
Speaker 1: knot match in England that nobody in the States paid

859
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:13,000
Speaker 1: attention to it all, you know, so there was some

860
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,319
Speaker 1: interesting He was owned by a person, Yeah he was.

861
00:49:16,400 --> 00:49:19,719
Speaker 1: He was an enslaved boxer, and it wasn't you know,

862
00:49:19,920 --> 00:49:23,759
Speaker 1: all that common, but it did exist. And I thought, okay,

863
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 1: I'm gonna find all kind of interesting stuff like that,

864
00:49:25,800 --> 00:49:29,120
Speaker 1: and I found there wasn't any of that. It was occasional, brief,

865
00:49:29,160 --> 00:49:34,200
Speaker 1: little snippets. But what impressed me was Tom MuLinux. I

866
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 1: think it's m O L y n e a u X,

867
00:49:39,120 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 1: and he was that we had I want to spend

868
00:49:45,200 --> 00:49:47,560
Speaker 1: too much time, Max, That's something we could go find out.

869
00:49:47,600 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 1: But you go to a place where there's no slavery,

870
00:49:53,120 --> 00:49:56,680
Speaker 1: like slavers abolished, you think he would get there. He

871
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 1: just walk out the door. Well that's it, you know,

872
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 1: it's it's I've heard that argument before and this is

873
00:50:02,760 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: way more than you want. But um, when England, uh

874
00:50:05,680 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 1: you know, passed a series of laws after what was

875
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:10,200
Speaker 1: called the Somerset case in in the early nineteenth century,

876
00:50:10,680 --> 00:50:13,120
Speaker 1: the argument that the courts used was that English air

877
00:50:13,280 --> 00:50:16,600
Speaker 1: is too free for a slave to breathe. And there

878
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 1: were slaves that were set freed when they were brought

879
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 1: to mainland England by their master, because the judge would rule, hey,

880
00:50:22,320 --> 00:50:25,359
Speaker 1: there's no slavery in England, all the possessions we own. Yeah,

881
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,399
Speaker 1: but you know, but then once they abolished slavery, they

882
00:50:28,400 --> 00:50:31,360
Speaker 1: were setting slaves free that that arrived on British soil

883
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:35,319
Speaker 1: fairly regularly, uh In in that time period didn't seem

884
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:37,800
Speaker 1: to happen that way. For Tom Molino, though, it is

885
00:50:37,840 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 1: a little different. Situation is bizarre, man, and and it

886
00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 1: actually it actually kind of now I think about it

887
00:50:42,760 --> 00:50:44,880
Speaker 1: sets up the kind of the kind of argument of

888
00:50:44,880 --> 00:50:47,440
Speaker 1: the book a little bit. Because um, a lot of

889
00:50:47,440 --> 00:50:49,920
Speaker 1: people found it strange that a boxer like this guy

890
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:53,000
Speaker 1: is gonna gonna make a celebrity out of his slave boxer,

891
00:50:53,080 --> 00:50:56,439
Speaker 1: travel with him, let him fight people, fight white men.

892
00:50:56,719 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 1: How how that doesn't seem like it would fit with

893
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,879
Speaker 1: the slave system. But the critical thing I think that

894
00:51:01,880 --> 00:51:05,040
Speaker 1: that helps get going with the books argument is that

895
00:51:05,239 --> 00:51:08,359
Speaker 1: so much of how white observers are gonna look at

896
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:12,200
Speaker 1: the sporting activities and for that matter of subsistence activities

897
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:15,680
Speaker 1: of slaves and then freed people of color, is what

898
00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:19,640
Speaker 1: is there kind of orientation toward me as the master?

899
00:51:20,360 --> 00:51:22,719
Speaker 1: You know, so you certainly would never want to, Hey,

900
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:24,879
Speaker 1: look there's a there's a slave and he's over there

901
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:28,439
Speaker 1: beating the hell out of that white guy. Somebody shoot him.

902
00:51:28,520 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 1: That's awful that can happen. But yet the same thing

903
00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:34,040
Speaker 1: is going to happen in a boxing ring because the

904
00:51:34,040 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 1: owner of Tom Mullin, who was going to say, well,

905
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 1: since he's my slave, he's an extension of me. That

906
00:51:38,800 --> 00:51:41,000
Speaker 1: means I have the best boxer in the world. I

907
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:47,120
Speaker 1: have that status. So sort of more independent assertive activities

908
00:51:47,239 --> 00:51:50,160
Speaker 1: by slaves, if they're done for the benefit of the master,

909
00:51:50,280 --> 00:51:52,719
Speaker 1: we're seeing as pretty okay. Who won the bout when

910
00:51:52,719 --> 00:51:56,040
Speaker 1: he went and fought in England. Uh, of course, I'm

911
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:59,280
Speaker 1: in a blank on that. I think the English champions

912
00:51:59,320 --> 00:52:01,759
Speaker 1: name was Tom crib cr I B B and I

913
00:52:01,800 --> 00:52:05,640
Speaker 1: think crib one, I think, But I also think now

914
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:06,800
Speaker 1: that I think I think there was a there was

915
00:52:06,840 --> 00:52:08,920
Speaker 1: a return match. I'm not sure if it was in

916
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,680
Speaker 1: the US or if it was there. Yeah, it's it's

917
00:52:11,719 --> 00:52:15,879
Speaker 1: it's a cool area of expertise. Yeah, it's a cool topic. Yeah.

918
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:18,280
Speaker 1: So so I started reading all these these slave interviews

919
00:52:18,400 --> 00:52:21,279
Speaker 1: and our former slave interviews, and it was you know,

920
00:52:21,320 --> 00:52:23,520
Speaker 1: there's several thousand of them, and it was kind of

921
00:52:23,520 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 1: fun to read them. And and uh, I was stunned

922
00:52:26,480 --> 00:52:29,400
Speaker 1: by how often hunting and fishing came up. And I

923
00:52:29,440 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 1: brought that up to some professors at PIT and you know,

924
00:52:32,440 --> 00:52:34,359
Speaker 1: some of them were like, Okay, that might be might

925
00:52:34,360 --> 00:52:36,799
Speaker 1: be an interesting thing to study, and others were like, well,

926
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:40,359
Speaker 1: of course, it's a mundane daily activity. Who cares. There's

927
00:52:40,360 --> 00:52:43,920
Speaker 1: probably no larger significance there. Uh So the more I read, though,

928
00:52:43,960 --> 00:52:45,359
Speaker 1: the more I kept thinking, you know, when they when

929
00:52:45,400 --> 00:52:47,319
Speaker 1: they write about these things or talk about it in

930
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 1: these interviews, they're not just saying Uh, wow, this is great.

931
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:54,319
Speaker 1: I could feed my family, which which is huge you

932
00:52:54,320 --> 00:52:56,160
Speaker 1: don't of itself, that's a huge thing, you know for

933
00:52:56,200 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 1: a slave. If a master is trying to reduce food

934
00:52:59,040 --> 00:53:01,919
Speaker 1: costs and you know, feeding slaves on the cheap, which

935
00:53:01,960 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 1: most of them did. You know, slaves were often malnourished,

936
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:06,080
Speaker 1: and it was you know, it's not a not a

937
00:53:06,080 --> 00:53:11,919
Speaker 1: good scene in that regard. Um. So you know, you could, um,

938
00:53:12,000 --> 00:53:13,760
Speaker 1: you know see a lot of slaves hunting and fishing,

939
00:53:14,120 --> 00:53:17,360
Speaker 1: but they didn't just talk about the nutritional value or

940
00:53:17,360 --> 00:53:19,879
Speaker 1: you know, or the food or even the income from

941
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:23,320
Speaker 1: selling you know, extra Through some market activities, I started

942
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: to run across more and more little mentions of you know,

943
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:29,439
Speaker 1: little things like uh, you know I felt free or

944
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:31,319
Speaker 1: you know, I felt like I was more of a man.

945
00:53:32,160 --> 00:53:33,839
Speaker 1: And those kind of mentions made me think, now there's

946
00:53:33,840 --> 00:53:37,120
Speaker 1: something more here. It's not just about food. There's there's

947
00:53:37,120 --> 00:53:40,080
Speaker 1: there's this story of independence. You know. You know, if

948
00:53:40,080 --> 00:53:43,239
Speaker 1: you're oft in the woods and uh you know you're

949
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 1: you're hunting small game, um, you may or may not

950
00:53:46,520 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 1: be doing something the master wants you to do. And

951
00:53:48,640 --> 00:53:50,520
Speaker 1: if you're doing something he doesn't want you to do, well,

952
00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 1: then that's you know, defying the system, and that's significant

953
00:53:54,239 --> 00:53:57,280
Speaker 1: if you're feeding yourself and your family when the master

954
00:53:57,400 --> 00:54:00,239
Speaker 1: is trying to keep you, you know, slightly mound work,

955
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 1: so you're more dependent upon upon him than then you're

956
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 1: pushing back against the system. UM. I think what what

957
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:08,719
Speaker 1: did it for me was I was reading um a

958
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:13,200
Speaker 1: published uh diary from from a former slave named Charles Ball.

959
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:15,160
Speaker 1: I'm forgetting where he would I want to say Georgia,

960
00:54:15,160 --> 00:54:17,680
Speaker 1: but that might not be right. Um. But he had

961
00:54:17,719 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: this long entry in his in his memoirs because he toured,

962
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:24,879
Speaker 1: you know, after after emancipation, he toward the country and

963
00:54:25,160 --> 00:54:27,839
Speaker 1: you know, did a lot of speaking about yeah, which

964
00:54:27,880 --> 00:54:30,319
Speaker 1: which was fairly common I'm not fairly common, but I

965
00:54:30,320 --> 00:54:33,120
Speaker 1: mean there's a handful of pretty well known former slaves

966
00:54:33,120 --> 00:54:35,480
Speaker 1: who traveled the country and uh, you know, first as

967
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:37,840
Speaker 1: abolitionists and then later as you know, kind of reformers

968
00:54:37,880 --> 00:54:42,080
Speaker 1: after emancipation. But Charles Ball wrote about um, the first

969
00:54:42,080 --> 00:54:43,759
Speaker 1: time he got a shotgun because it was you know,

970
00:54:43,800 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 1: it was it was prohibited, and he just happened to

971
00:54:47,000 --> 00:54:49,920
Speaker 1: meet someone who had an old, rusty shotgun and he

972
00:54:49,960 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 1: had a hiding place and he thought I'll get this,

973
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:55,200
Speaker 1: and he quietly stashed it away and began to hunt.

974
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:57,239
Speaker 1: And he talked about the first time he went out

975
00:54:57,280 --> 00:54:59,880
Speaker 1: and hunted with with this old shotgun that he found.

976
00:55:00,120 --> 00:55:02,319
Speaker 1: And I remember the quote because it struck me so much.

977
00:55:02,360 --> 00:55:04,359
Speaker 1: It was short quote too, that helped. But he said,

978
00:55:04,840 --> 00:55:07,880
Speaker 1: but he said, I now began to live well and

979
00:55:07,960 --> 00:55:12,399
Speaker 1: to feel myself, at least in some measure, an independent man.

980
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:16,279
Speaker 1: And that really struck stuck, stuck with me. And I thought, well,

981
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:18,719
Speaker 1: if that kind of attitude is there, if it was

982
00:55:18,760 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 1: seen as as by slaves as in some ways guaranteeing independence,

983
00:55:23,560 --> 00:55:25,560
Speaker 1: while at the same time it was seen as a

984
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:29,480
Speaker 1: thing from the master's point of view that benefited his operation,

985
00:55:30,040 --> 00:55:32,719
Speaker 1: like it's sort of had both sides to it. I

986
00:55:32,800 --> 00:55:36,800
Speaker 1: was really curious how that would shake out after emancipation,

987
00:55:37,320 --> 00:55:39,080
Speaker 1: you know, basically, like you know, you know, if I

988
00:55:39,200 --> 00:55:41,960
Speaker 1: if I'm a slave owner and I can uh you know, oh,

989
00:55:42,080 --> 00:55:43,719
Speaker 1: you want to go hunt and and and make your

990
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:47,720
Speaker 1: extra game for your family, go ahead. Look what a wonderful, awesome,

991
00:55:47,719 --> 00:55:51,480
Speaker 1: benevolent master I am. I'm saving money on food provisions,

992
00:55:51,840 --> 00:55:54,839
Speaker 1: and you know this is great? What what could go wrong? Right?

993
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:57,000
Speaker 1: But then from the slaves point of view, it's like, yeah,

994
00:55:57,160 --> 00:55:59,080
Speaker 1: I'm feeding myself in a way that you don't intend.

995
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:02,400
Speaker 1: I'm sneaking off a lot of times to check traps

996
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 1: or hunt when I'm not supposed to, or you know,

997
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 1: go fish when I'm not supposed to, uh, engage in

998
00:56:07,000 --> 00:56:10,799
Speaker 1: market activities that are usually not permitted for slaves. So

999
00:56:11,000 --> 00:56:13,479
Speaker 1: for me, it's going to be more about asserting my

1000
00:56:13,480 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 1: my independence, my mobility, my liberty. Um So there's this

1001
00:56:17,719 --> 00:56:22,799
Speaker 1: really deep tradition of sort of different purposes, you know,

1002
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: sort of you know, you want to go back to

1003
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:26,640
Speaker 1: the very you know, the older European part of the story.

1004
00:56:26,640 --> 00:56:28,120
Speaker 1: It's you know, it's no different than you know, the

1005
00:56:28,640 --> 00:56:31,320
Speaker 1: poor peasant hunting the king the king's deer, you know,

1006
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:35,360
Speaker 1: kind of same thing, you know, dear for uh, you know,

1007
00:56:35,400 --> 00:56:37,080
Speaker 1: for a king, this is a it's a it's a

1008
00:56:37,120 --> 00:56:39,359
Speaker 1: it's a thing to be granted as a privilege. It's

1009
00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:41,960
Speaker 1: it's a way to control, it's a way to to uh,

1010
00:56:42,920 --> 00:56:46,879
Speaker 1: you know, show your standing in society. And as long

1011
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:48,680
Speaker 1: as my slaves are doing it in such a way

1012
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:51,200
Speaker 1: that doesn't mess me up, I am totally fine with it.

1013
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:54,399
Speaker 1: You know, I I I'll cultivate that image. I'll tell

1014
00:56:54,440 --> 00:56:56,640
Speaker 1: my friends, I have the best huntsman, I have the

1015
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: best dogs, I have the best equipment, because it's an

1016
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:02,480
Speaker 1: extension me as a master, because that was an important

1017
00:57:02,520 --> 00:57:05,440
Speaker 1: thing in the minds of elite Southerners back then. Can

1018
00:57:05,480 --> 00:57:09,359
Speaker 1: you real quick hit on the word antebellum? Sure, Um,

1019
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:11,759
Speaker 1: just I want to. I want to establish like sort

1020
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:15,040
Speaker 1: of the you know, the timeline a little bit, sure

1021
00:57:15,080 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 1: what the basic definition of the word just means before

1022
00:57:17,600 --> 00:57:20,240
Speaker 1: the war. Um, But when we think about the Antebellum

1023
00:57:20,280 --> 00:57:22,680
Speaker 1: period in the US, we we sort of think about

1024
00:57:23,160 --> 00:57:26,240
Speaker 1: sort of the period between the Constitution and the Civil War.

1025
00:57:26,760 --> 00:57:29,320
Speaker 1: That's sort of the Antebellum period. And more specifically, I

1026
00:57:29,320 --> 00:57:33,640
Speaker 1: would say even once we get into the early nineteenth century. Um,

1027
00:57:33,680 --> 00:57:36,280
Speaker 1: that's usually what his stories mean when they say Antebellum. Yeah,

1028
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:40,480
Speaker 1: it's come. It's like, uh, that Antebellum period, Like that

1029
00:57:40,600 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 1: Antebellum became like the Antebellum Yeah, capital all the cultural

1030
00:57:46,520 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 1: images and all that. Yeah. Because your book spends a

1031
00:57:50,120 --> 00:57:56,080
Speaker 1: chapter or so on the Antebellum period, and then it

1032
00:57:56,160 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 1: spends a lot of time on the hell's the what's

1033
00:57:59,160 --> 00:58:02,320
Speaker 1: the opposite of antibe them. Uh, we'll post bellum. I

1034
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:05,320
Speaker 1: guess that's a little clunkier. People don't use post bellum

1035
00:58:05,400 --> 00:58:08,120
Speaker 1: is usually post emancipation is kind of people say in

1036
00:58:08,560 --> 00:58:13,120
Speaker 1: these circles. So, uh, explain like what hunting and fishing

1037
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:16,200
Speaker 1: would have looked like m for slaves, Like what what

1038
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:18,840
Speaker 1: kind of activities there? Not what it would look like,

1039
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:22,400
Speaker 1: but what were they actually doing? How are they getting game? Well?

1040
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 1: The kind of the key point I think for both

1041
00:58:25,720 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 1: slaves that engage in these activities and then and then

1042
00:58:28,680 --> 00:58:33,840
Speaker 1: free persons after emancipation is that it's it's a story

1043
00:58:34,040 --> 00:58:37,280
Speaker 1: of what's effective and what can I do so that

1044
00:58:37,400 --> 00:58:39,400
Speaker 1: you know, there's very little concern for like, well, we

1045
00:58:39,440 --> 00:58:41,400
Speaker 1: got to use the proper sporting methods and we've got

1046
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:43,560
Speaker 1: to make sure we you know, we we can't hunt

1047
00:58:43,560 --> 00:58:45,880
Speaker 1: with fire, that would be wrong. Now it's like whatever worked,

1048
00:58:45,920 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 1: whatever we could do, because what mattered was the food.

1049
00:58:48,560 --> 00:58:51,360
Speaker 1: What matters was game to sell if they were able

1050
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,720
Speaker 1: to do that. So really it was you know, anything,

1051
00:58:54,920 --> 00:59:00,360
Speaker 1: you know, any method, any animal that they could get. Um.

1052
00:59:00,360 --> 00:59:03,480
Speaker 1: What I think what's interesting about about that question in

1053
00:59:03,680 --> 00:59:09,600
Speaker 1: the Antebellum period is because slaves were often limited in

1054
00:59:09,880 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 1: terms of what they could go after. You know, for example,

1055
00:59:11,960 --> 00:59:13,720
Speaker 1: you're not if you're if you're a slave, and even

1056
00:59:13,760 --> 00:59:15,440
Speaker 1: if you have permission, you're probably not going to go

1057
00:59:15,520 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 1: out and start shooting a bunch of deer because local

1058
00:59:18,040 --> 00:59:19,640
Speaker 1: planters gonna say, hey, what the heck are you doing.

1059
00:59:20,040 --> 00:59:23,720
Speaker 1: That's not for you, you know. Uh. So they developed

1060
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:26,920
Speaker 1: a pretty good reliance on small game, and that was

1061
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 1: a matter of practical necessity. They were abundant, easy, they

1062
00:59:30,360 --> 00:59:32,520
Speaker 1: could set simple traps. You know, they could go out

1063
00:59:32,520 --> 00:59:35,720
Speaker 1: when they had free time on the weekends. Yeah, and

1064
00:59:35,720 --> 00:59:38,000
Speaker 1: and do Yeah. Slave dogs were everywhere. It was. It

1065
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:39,560
Speaker 1: was it was just the you know part of the

1066
00:59:39,600 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 1: scene you know, on on plantations in the South and

1067
00:59:42,280 --> 00:59:48,000
Speaker 1: huge part of of of getting extra food. And you could, uh,

1068
00:59:48,040 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 1: you know, embrace every method imaginable. You know. In some states,

1069
00:59:53,480 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 1: slaves could hunt with firearms if they had written permission

1070
00:59:56,960 --> 00:59:59,800
Speaker 1: from the master and if the master purchased a bond

1071
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:03,360
Speaker 1: basically like okay, you want to have a slave with

1072
01:00:03,360 --> 01:00:06,439
Speaker 1: a gun to be an official huntsman for the plantation. Uh.

1073
01:00:06,480 --> 01:00:08,120
Speaker 1: We have a state law that says you've got to

1074
01:00:08,160 --> 01:00:12,680
Speaker 1: pay a thousand dollar churity. So if something happens if

1075
01:00:12,680 --> 01:00:14,360
Speaker 1: that slave does something with that gun that they're not

1076
01:00:14,400 --> 01:00:17,000
Speaker 1: supposed to, you gotta pay us a thousand dollars. In

1077
01:00:17,000 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 1: other words, how secure are you that your slave can

1078
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:22,840
Speaker 1: be trusted with this gun? So it's there that's anti

1079
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:25,040
Speaker 1: to a stuff right there. Well, I mean you can imagine,

1080
01:00:25,080 --> 01:00:28,840
Speaker 1: you know, you can imagine the the concern about slaves

1081
01:00:28,840 --> 01:00:31,959
Speaker 1: with firearms. It was just it was just not That's why.

1082
01:00:32,560 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 1: That's one thing that surprising about the book is, Um,

1083
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:36,960
Speaker 1: I would assume like, well, of course not. Then you

1084
01:00:37,120 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 1: mentioned cases where people that a slave would be allowed

1085
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:44,440
Speaker 1: would have, you know, the resource provided and be able

1086
01:00:44,480 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 1: allowed to go into the woods and hunt. Yeah, which

1087
01:00:47,080 --> 01:00:48,760
Speaker 1: brings up all these which just brings up all these

1088
01:00:48,760 --> 01:00:52,120
Speaker 1: practical questions. Um, And I know it's kind of beyond

1089
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:56,000
Speaker 1: the scope of what you did, but uh, how hard

1090
01:00:56,120 --> 01:00:59,320
Speaker 1: like how you couldn't just go into the woods and

1091
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:03,560
Speaker 1: then disbanded. I mean, you're separated by hundreds of miles

1092
01:01:03,560 --> 01:01:06,640
Speaker 1: of territory. It's just it's just hard to imagine someone

1093
01:01:06,760 --> 01:01:12,360
Speaker 1: kind of fluidly moving out of supervision into supervision going

1094
01:01:12,400 --> 01:01:15,440
Speaker 1: out at night to hunt. Right, You're you're not supervised,

1095
01:01:15,480 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 1: You're not but then it's just it's just impossible and practical.

1096
01:01:19,120 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 1: I mean, you have a family probably, so you'd be

1097
01:01:21,920 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 1: abandoning your family to take off um and all kinds

1098
01:01:25,400 --> 01:01:27,880
Speaker 1: of other obstacles, but just kind of you almost wish

1099
01:01:27,880 --> 01:01:31,480
Speaker 1: you could look back and see sort of the parameters

1100
01:01:31,520 --> 01:01:35,320
Speaker 1: of it. You know, was going two miles away, Like,

1101
01:01:35,840 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 1: no way, I can go two miles away. You can

1102
01:01:38,760 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 1: go down to the river bottom. But yeah, it's it's

1103
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:44,560
Speaker 1: hard to imagine sort of epic excursions, the limited time

1104
01:01:44,600 --> 01:01:46,240
Speaker 1: that slaves had, you know, because you know, if you're

1105
01:01:46,240 --> 01:01:48,840
Speaker 1: in you know, say you know parts of the South

1106
01:01:48,880 --> 01:01:52,200
Speaker 1: where they're growing tobacco or cotton um. You know, these

1107
01:01:52,200 --> 01:01:54,680
Speaker 1: are what they call the gang system. These are just

1108
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:57,480
Speaker 1: huge groups of slaves in the field, work by an overseer,

1109
01:01:57,920 --> 01:01:59,520
Speaker 1: you know, working for when the sun comes up until

1110
01:01:59,520 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 1: when the sun goes down. There's not a lot of

1111
01:02:01,160 --> 01:02:03,640
Speaker 1: time or energy, you know for these kind of activities.

1112
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:05,800
Speaker 1: You know, Sunday's you know, you had to give slaves

1113
01:02:05,800 --> 01:02:09,320
Speaker 1: Sunday off because you know, good Christians. Uh so, uh,

1114
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:11,200
Speaker 1: Sundays would be a day you could do it if

1115
01:02:11,240 --> 01:02:13,400
Speaker 1: you had young kids that that weren't working out in

1116
01:02:13,400 --> 01:02:15,000
Speaker 1: the field yet. They could certainly go out there and

1117
01:02:15,040 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 1: fish and you know, trap small game and things like that.

1118
01:02:17,880 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 1: But a lot of it depended upon where you were.

1119
01:02:20,160 --> 01:02:22,200
Speaker 1: You know, if you were a slave in like South Carolina,

1120
01:02:22,240 --> 01:02:25,200
Speaker 1: for example, and you're on what they called the task system,

1121
01:02:25,240 --> 01:02:27,680
Speaker 1: where you know, rice cultivation and some other crops, tended

1122
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:29,960
Speaker 1: to rather than just say, get as many slaves as

1123
01:02:29,960 --> 01:02:31,160
Speaker 1: you can, put them out in the field and work

1124
01:02:31,240 --> 01:02:34,120
Speaker 1: them with an overseer, there's too many individual small tasks

1125
01:02:34,120 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 1: that need to be done in say rice cultivation, so

1126
01:02:36,520 --> 01:02:38,000
Speaker 1: instead you would just make a list of all the

1127
01:02:38,000 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 1: work that needed to be done, give individual slaves individual tasks,

1128
01:02:41,680 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 1: and then tell them as soon as you're finished, you're

1129
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:46,040
Speaker 1: done for the day. So then slaves in those parts

1130
01:02:46,080 --> 01:02:49,920
Speaker 1: of the South had motivation finished the task system, yeah,

1131
01:02:50,000 --> 01:02:52,880
Speaker 1: and you were Then you then became a specialist at

1132
01:02:52,880 --> 01:02:55,680
Speaker 1: a task well not necessarily a specialist, but you were

1133
01:02:55,680 --> 01:02:58,920
Speaker 1: basically told on a daily basis, like not like a

1134
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:01,400
Speaker 1: this is your deal for the year. Now, it's like,

1135
01:03:01,400 --> 01:03:03,120
Speaker 1: make a daily list, here's what I want you to do.

1136
01:03:03,160 --> 01:03:04,640
Speaker 1: As soon as you're done, you can go do your

1137
01:03:04,640 --> 01:03:08,360
Speaker 1: own thing. Um. Of course, the catch was that was

1138
01:03:08,400 --> 01:03:10,240
Speaker 1: a system where you know, if I could have the

1139
01:03:10,280 --> 01:03:12,480
Speaker 1: time to go off and hunt or fish or do

1140
01:03:12,560 --> 01:03:15,680
Speaker 1: whatever on my own time. Uh, the system was built

1141
01:03:15,680 --> 01:03:17,960
Speaker 1: to put in some pretty severe punishments if I stepped

1142
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:20,320
Speaker 1: out a line. So in in the gang system, there

1143
01:03:20,360 --> 01:03:22,720
Speaker 1: was less time for these activities. They still did them,

1144
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:24,919
Speaker 1: but there was less time. And then in the task

1145
01:03:24,960 --> 01:03:27,600
Speaker 1: and there's a lot more time. But slaves are limited

1146
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:30,240
Speaker 1: by not wanting to push it too much because the

1147
01:03:30,560 --> 01:03:33,000
Speaker 1: you know, the task system had the most brutal punishments

1148
01:03:33,040 --> 01:03:38,320
Speaker 1: of any you know, slavery system in the US. Anyway, Yeah,

1149
01:03:38,480 --> 01:03:44,840
Speaker 1: in the book, you have so many quotes from interviews, right,

1150
01:03:44,960 --> 01:03:52,760
Speaker 1: so like slaves recounting experiences, newspaper articles, a lot of editorials,

1151
01:03:53,400 --> 01:03:57,400
Speaker 1: letters to the editor, opinion pieces. There's some magazines that

1152
01:03:57,480 --> 01:03:59,440
Speaker 1: just come up again and again and again and again,

1153
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:03,320
Speaker 1: these old sporting magazines. Yeah, Forest and Stream and you know,

1154
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:07,959
Speaker 1: Spirit of the Time and then cartoons and other things.

1155
01:04:07,960 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 1: But you do get, uh, you kind of get a

1156
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:14,360
Speaker 1: sense of the things people did would be uh, and

1157
01:04:14,400 --> 01:04:17,400
Speaker 1: talking about that not having guns would be that they

1158
01:04:17,400 --> 01:04:23,080
Speaker 1: would hunt with hounds and tree possums and raccoons. And

1159
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:25,760
Speaker 1: then you need to go get the thing you can't

1160
01:04:25,760 --> 01:04:29,000
Speaker 1: shoot it down, so you'd climb up and get it.

1161
01:04:29,480 --> 01:04:32,080
Speaker 1: And then it just certain like practices. Uh. I was

1162
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:36,040
Speaker 1: surprised by that. You catch a possum and bring it

1163
01:04:36,080 --> 01:04:38,960
Speaker 1: back live, you know, and how they cut a stick

1164
01:04:39,680 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 1: to hold its tail and you kind of like walk

1165
01:04:42,480 --> 01:04:45,680
Speaker 1: around like bring it home like a you know, like

1166
01:04:45,720 --> 01:04:50,640
Speaker 1: ready to go like a live creature. And then netting, fish, netting,

1167
01:04:50,720 --> 01:04:53,800
Speaker 1: running lines. Yeah, I mean I've come across any method

1168
01:04:53,840 --> 01:04:56,360
Speaker 1: you could think of. They clearly talked about trapping, but

1169
01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:59,080
Speaker 1: you know, different people talk about trapping. All they used

1170
01:04:59,120 --> 01:05:01,480
Speaker 1: to poison stream to you know, get as many fish

1171
01:05:01,520 --> 01:05:04,600
Speaker 1: at once as they could and fish with dynamite. Slaves

1172
01:05:04,640 --> 01:05:05,960
Speaker 1: couldn't do that because you know, you have a hard

1173
01:05:05,960 --> 01:05:08,120
Speaker 1: time getting dynamite. But uh, you know, it's it's one

1174
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:09,919
Speaker 1: of those things that points to one of the real

1175
01:05:10,520 --> 01:05:14,760
Speaker 1: kind of divisions, points of division uh in in you know,

1176
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:17,200
Speaker 1: kind of the hunting and fishing, you know, kind of

1177
01:05:17,240 --> 01:05:19,680
Speaker 1: the discussions of emerging conservation. You know, it comes along

1178
01:05:19,680 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 1: in the nineteen centuries. Um. You know, poor people, whether

1179
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:27,480
Speaker 1: they're slaves or you know whoever that are independent beyond slaves,

1180
01:05:27,800 --> 01:05:30,400
Speaker 1: you know, they don't care about you know, I'm going

1181
01:05:30,480 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 1: going to use the best weapons and the and the

1182
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:34,560
Speaker 1: most pure sporting methods, and I'm going to make sure

1183
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:36,800
Speaker 1: that all the codes are now. They want they want

1184
01:05:36,800 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 1: to catch as much as they can. They want that

1185
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:41,720
Speaker 1: freezer full of you know, eighty bags of Walleye or

1186
01:05:41,720 --> 01:05:44,240
Speaker 1: whatever it is, right, so you know that, you know,

1187
01:05:44,280 --> 01:05:47,680
Speaker 1: they're really focusing on on methods that work. So the

1188
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:51,080
Speaker 1: interesting thing that happens is, um, you know, when when

1189
01:05:51,120 --> 01:05:53,880
Speaker 1: you read about the hunting methods of of you know,

1190
01:05:53,960 --> 01:05:57,080
Speaker 1: of of lower class people from the perspective of elites,

1191
01:05:57,320 --> 01:06:00,520
Speaker 1: you know, during slavery, you know they're they're other little

1192
01:06:00,520 --> 01:06:02,560
Speaker 1: hard on it, and you know they criticize it, but

1193
01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 1: it's like, of course, poor they hunt, you know, they

1194
01:06:05,040 --> 01:06:07,840
Speaker 1: need the food. We won't give them guns. Yeah, yeah,

1195
01:06:08,000 --> 01:06:10,000
Speaker 1: fortunately we don't have to do that, but the poor

1196
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:13,160
Speaker 1: people do. And uh. But what's interesting and the good

1197
01:06:13,240 --> 01:06:15,160
Speaker 1: question that kind of got me thinking about it, you know,

1198
01:06:15,240 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 1: for the dissertation and then eventually the book was okay,

1199
01:06:17,640 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 1: so they're not too critical of these activities now, but

1200
01:06:21,360 --> 01:06:24,800
Speaker 1: what happens when the boards reset with emancipation. You know,

1201
01:06:25,240 --> 01:06:27,439
Speaker 1: you know, I'm okay with a slave having a gun

1202
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:29,080
Speaker 1: as long as I can think of them as an

1203
01:06:29,080 --> 01:06:31,680
Speaker 1: extension of me, or I'm okay with them going off

1204
01:06:31,720 --> 01:06:33,680
Speaker 1: on their own and hunting and fishing because it benefits

1205
01:06:33,720 --> 01:06:37,000
Speaker 1: my operation. I don't mind that they have these skills.

1206
01:06:37,120 --> 01:06:39,720
Speaker 1: And you know, people starting are starting to think of

1207
01:06:40,000 --> 01:06:43,040
Speaker 1: African American sportsmen as among the very best in the region.

1208
01:06:43,360 --> 01:06:45,960
Speaker 1: I'm okay with that. Because of slavery, what I really

1209
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:48,840
Speaker 1: wondered was is that going to switch, Is that gonna

1210
01:06:48,960 --> 01:06:51,000
Speaker 1: is that going to remain consistent, or is there going

1211
01:06:51,040 --> 01:06:53,240
Speaker 1: to be a mental shift on the part of elite

1212
01:06:53,240 --> 01:06:56,640
Speaker 1: white Southerners. And then on from the slave perspective, I

1213
01:06:56,680 --> 01:07:00,760
Speaker 1: was really curious if if emancipation would mean well, these

1214
01:07:00,760 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 1: are the extra things we had to do because the

1215
01:07:02,640 --> 01:07:06,360
Speaker 1: system of slavery wouldn't allow us to take care of ourselves. Otherwise,

1216
01:07:06,440 --> 01:07:09,760
Speaker 1: will they still indulge those traditions as much as they

1217
01:07:10,160 --> 01:07:12,840
Speaker 1: to participate still? Yeah, So I was really curious how

1218
01:07:12,840 --> 01:07:15,520
Speaker 1: things would shake out, you know, after emancipation. And that's

1219
01:07:15,600 --> 01:07:17,320
Speaker 1: and then, as I mentioned to Current the other day,

1220
01:07:17,840 --> 01:07:20,800
Speaker 1: um yeah, I was prepared to write a dissertation on

1221
01:07:20,960 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 1: just the question of slavery and hunting and fishing, and

1222
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:26,360
Speaker 1: then somebody wrote another book about it, and I cursed

1223
01:07:26,360 --> 01:07:28,440
Speaker 1: a little bit and then set my sights on the

1224
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:32,320
Speaker 1: post emancipation periods. I hate it, almost asked, because we're

1225
01:07:32,320 --> 01:07:35,280
Speaker 1: talking about your book. Oh no, it's a great book.

1226
01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:37,600
Speaker 1: And he's a great guy. Actually, so the books called

1227
01:07:37,600 --> 01:07:40,400
Speaker 1: Bathed in Blood. It's a great title. It's called Bathe

1228
01:07:40,440 --> 01:07:42,640
Speaker 1: and Blood, Hunting and Mastering in the Old South, And

1229
01:07:42,640 --> 01:07:48,880
Speaker 1: it got even Nick Proctor really interesting. And his deals

1230
01:07:49,360 --> 01:07:52,960
Speaker 1: deals with with slavery hunting and not the Yeah, yeah,

1231
01:07:52,960 --> 01:07:55,280
Speaker 1: it ends, it ends, uh, you know, with with slavery

1232
01:07:55,320 --> 01:07:58,200
Speaker 1: still around. Well, let's let's jump do mancipatient and I'll

1233
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:02,960
Speaker 1: I'll set up another thing that it's very obvious. It's

1234
01:08:03,240 --> 01:08:05,120
Speaker 1: very obvious, but I just hadn't given it much thought.

1235
01:08:05,880 --> 01:08:14,600
Speaker 1: Would be that after the war and after Lincoln emancipation UM,

1236
01:08:14,680 --> 01:08:18,439
Speaker 1: there was still demand for cotton, there was still demand

1237
01:08:18,439 --> 01:08:21,720
Speaker 1: for rice, right, so people don't need to resource. I

1238
01:08:21,800 --> 01:08:26,439
Speaker 1: never thought about just the simple practical thing of what

1239
01:08:26,479 --> 01:08:29,760
Speaker 1: do you do now that you need to attract labors?

1240
01:08:31,120 --> 01:08:33,800
Speaker 1: And the tension that that set up, Yeah, that was

1241
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:36,880
Speaker 1: that was you know, in the late eighteen sixties. That

1242
01:08:36,960 --> 01:08:40,040
Speaker 1: was like kind of the like the question, and they

1243
01:08:40,120 --> 01:08:42,960
Speaker 1: called it the labor question right right to the point,

1244
01:08:43,120 --> 01:08:45,240
Speaker 1: what do we do now? And you know we we

1245
01:08:45,240 --> 01:08:47,080
Speaker 1: we need to find a way to make sure that

1246
01:08:47,120 --> 01:08:50,920
Speaker 1: we have enough labor. Federal government was intensely interested in that.

1247
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:53,720
Speaker 1: And of course, I don't don't want to sound like

1248
01:08:53,720 --> 01:08:56,000
Speaker 1: a liberal that says anti government things. I'm not supposed

1249
01:08:56,040 --> 01:08:58,719
Speaker 1: to do that right as a liberal, but um, federal

1250
01:08:58,720 --> 01:09:01,800
Speaker 1: government can screwed this up. Right after emancipation, they were thinking, Okay,

1251
01:09:01,840 --> 01:09:03,960
Speaker 1: we need work. You know, we need cotton. We need

1252
01:09:03,960 --> 01:09:06,120
Speaker 1: the Southern economy to get going again, which makes sense.

1253
01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:09,880
Speaker 1: We know that former slaves don't want to work, uh

1254
01:09:10,040 --> 01:09:13,320
Speaker 1: for their former masters, and we know that former masters.

1255
01:09:13,479 --> 01:09:16,400
Speaker 1: You know, I don't really want to do this either,

1256
01:09:16,920 --> 01:09:18,840
Speaker 1: but we have to get the Southern economy going. So

1257
01:09:18,880 --> 01:09:23,599
Speaker 1: what the federal government mandated during the reconstruction period was that, uh, look,

1258
01:09:23,640 --> 01:09:26,719
Speaker 1: former slaves, you will go back to work, and former

1259
01:09:26,760 --> 01:09:30,200
Speaker 1: masters you will pay cash. That's just all there is

1260
01:09:30,240 --> 01:09:32,240
Speaker 1: to it. They're free, you're gonna pay them their wage

1261
01:09:32,280 --> 01:09:35,719
Speaker 1: workers now, so you're gonna work and you're gonna pay cash.

1262
01:09:36,200 --> 01:09:38,040
Speaker 1: And both of them want to go. When you say that,

1263
01:09:38,040 --> 01:09:39,960
Speaker 1: people didn't want to go work for their former master.

1264
01:09:40,080 --> 01:09:43,120
Speaker 1: Do you mean like specifically for their former master or

1265
01:09:43,160 --> 01:09:46,760
Speaker 1: do you mean for former masters? Well? Both, Like some

1266
01:09:46,800 --> 01:09:49,320
Speaker 1: people were like, um, I'm done my days of laboring,

1267
01:09:49,479 --> 01:09:51,800
Speaker 1: you know, for you were over. And some people just

1268
01:09:52,000 --> 01:09:54,200
Speaker 1: hit the road and split and that was that. And

1269
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:57,360
Speaker 1: other people it was more like, hey, you know now

1270
01:09:57,400 --> 01:09:59,400
Speaker 1: that I'm free, and I you know, I want to

1271
01:09:59,400 --> 01:10:02,280
Speaker 1: stay here. It's home. And many people did. But you know,

1272
01:10:02,400 --> 01:10:06,479
Speaker 1: the guy that owned me was a real tough piece

1273
01:10:06,520 --> 01:10:08,000
Speaker 1: of work. I don't want to work for him, so

1274
01:10:08,080 --> 01:10:09,840
Speaker 1: I ability I'm gonna go somewhere else and find someone

1275
01:10:09,880 --> 01:10:11,559
Speaker 1: else to work with. So you started to see this

1276
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:14,080
Speaker 1: kind of mobility and people criss crossing parts of the South.

1277
01:10:14,400 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 1: Did you just just curious? Did you counter cases where

1278
01:10:18,479 --> 01:10:22,120
Speaker 1: a slave was emancipated and then turned around and the

1279
01:10:22,160 --> 01:10:25,000
Speaker 1: masters like all right, I give up and then like

1280
01:10:25,040 --> 01:10:27,000
Speaker 1: puts them on payroll and they stay in work for

1281
01:10:27,040 --> 01:10:32,040
Speaker 1: the same place. Yeah, not that happened quite a bit. Man.

1282
01:10:32,080 --> 01:10:37,959
Speaker 1: That when it strange strange experience, it's a very strange experience,

1283
01:10:37,960 --> 01:10:41,519
Speaker 1: and it's easy to use that that fact to sort of,

1284
01:10:41,880 --> 01:10:43,760
Speaker 1: I think run off in the wrong direction. I've heard

1285
01:10:43,760 --> 01:10:45,200
Speaker 1: people say like, oh, well then there must have been

1286
01:10:45,240 --> 01:10:48,120
Speaker 1: a lot of slaves who were finally they love their master.

1287
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:50,280
Speaker 1: It's like, well, no, it's like you live in in

1288
01:10:50,360 --> 01:10:54,320
Speaker 1: southern Mississippi, you know, you know, migrating to the north,

1289
01:10:54,400 --> 01:10:56,760
Speaker 1: which you know, a huge percentage of the black population

1290
01:10:56,840 --> 01:10:59,960
Speaker 1: does later. But in the eighteen sixties and eighteen seven,

1291
01:11:00,080 --> 01:11:02,200
Speaker 1: this is where we live. This is where home and

1292
01:11:02,240 --> 01:11:04,200
Speaker 1: family is, you know, this is this is where I'm at.

1293
01:11:04,320 --> 01:11:06,599
Speaker 1: So you know, I've got to just make the best

1294
01:11:06,920 --> 01:11:08,840
Speaker 1: I can and if my best option is I'm gonna

1295
01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:10,600
Speaker 1: go back to work for the same guy, you know,

1296
01:11:10,680 --> 01:11:12,800
Speaker 1: then I will. But the problem was with that, with

1297
01:11:12,840 --> 01:11:16,439
Speaker 1: that contract system that forced by the federal government is uh,

1298
01:11:16,600 --> 01:11:18,840
Speaker 1: former slavelwers didn't have any money because of the war

1299
01:11:19,000 --> 01:11:21,439
Speaker 1: just you know, wrecked the South, and then former slaves

1300
01:11:21,680 --> 01:11:23,880
Speaker 1: by and large would rather not be forced to go

1301
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:25,880
Speaker 1: back to work for the same people that they wanted.

1302
01:11:26,040 --> 01:11:29,439
Speaker 1: They wanted more freedom. So that contract system kind of

1303
01:11:29,479 --> 01:11:31,720
Speaker 1: limped along for a few years with everybody hating it.

1304
01:11:31,920 --> 01:11:35,840
Speaker 1: The established like a minimum wage equivalent. Yeah, I don't

1305
01:11:35,840 --> 01:11:37,240
Speaker 1: I don't know much about that, but I know the

1306
01:11:37,280 --> 01:11:41,240
Speaker 1: individual states did that because there were you know, the

1307
01:11:41,240 --> 01:11:46,320
Speaker 1: South was divided into military districts. Yeah, there was sort

1308
01:11:46,360 --> 01:11:49,200
Speaker 1: of a kind of a general thought about that and

1309
01:11:49,320 --> 01:11:50,760
Speaker 1: to get to get to get back to the to

1310
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:55,240
Speaker 1: the hunting and fishing question. Um, the sort of the

1311
01:11:55,320 --> 01:11:59,880
Speaker 1: solution that emerged to this contract problem was the sharecropping system,

1312
01:12:00,160 --> 01:12:02,080
Speaker 1: right people. You know, people always talk about how bad

1313
01:12:02,080 --> 01:12:03,960
Speaker 1: share cropping wasn't it was, And you could argue that

1314
01:12:03,960 --> 01:12:06,280
Speaker 1: it wrecked the Southern economy by the ninet fifties, But

1315
01:12:06,640 --> 01:12:09,600
Speaker 1: at the time it came out, it was a great compromise, Like, oh,

1316
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:12,720
Speaker 1: so I don't have to work when you say, and

1317
01:12:12,880 --> 01:12:14,519
Speaker 1: I can pull my wife out of the field if

1318
01:12:14,520 --> 01:12:17,559
Speaker 1: I want to, and I control what I grow and

1319
01:12:17,600 --> 01:12:19,439
Speaker 1: when I grow it, and I can sell it, and

1320
01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:21,040
Speaker 1: I can keep a lot of the money. Great, and

1321
01:12:21,080 --> 01:12:23,600
Speaker 1: then the master's like, oh so I'll give you the

1322
01:12:23,600 --> 01:12:26,000
Speaker 1: tools and you can work the land and you give

1323
01:12:26,000 --> 01:12:28,759
Speaker 1: me a cut of it. Okay, that sounds fine, that's

1324
01:12:28,800 --> 01:12:31,080
Speaker 1: a good description. But just like very quickly hit like

1325
01:12:31,120 --> 01:12:35,320
Speaker 1: what sharecropping is. So basically behind sharecropping is you know,

1326
01:12:35,520 --> 01:12:37,800
Speaker 1: so if I'm a landowner and I don't have the

1327
01:12:37,880 --> 01:12:41,639
Speaker 1: capital to pay wages to workers, what I can do

1328
01:12:41,880 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 1: is I can say Okay, look, I'm gonna break my

1329
01:12:44,000 --> 01:12:48,240
Speaker 1: my my farm up into ten different parcels. I'm going

1330
01:12:48,280 --> 01:12:51,439
Speaker 1: to sign a contract with ten different families and they'll

1331
01:12:51,479 --> 01:12:55,400
Speaker 1: work those parts of my acreage and uh in exchange

1332
01:12:55,400 --> 01:12:58,400
Speaker 1: for a share of the crop. So you know, whether

1333
01:12:58,439 --> 01:13:00,160
Speaker 1: it was you know, a quarter or a third or

1334
01:13:00,160 --> 01:13:04,120
Speaker 1: whatever the individual contract was, so like the landowner gets

1335
01:13:04,120 --> 01:13:07,840
Speaker 1: a third. It depended. Usually usually it was it was

1336
01:13:07,880 --> 01:13:11,559
Speaker 1: the landowner, um. And the idea was, I'm gonna front

1337
01:13:11,560 --> 01:13:15,360
Speaker 1: you all the tools, equipment, livestock, whatever you need, and

1338
01:13:15,360 --> 01:13:17,000
Speaker 1: then at the end of the season, sell the crop,

1339
01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:20,160
Speaker 1: pay me back out of the profits. I keep my proceeds,

1340
01:13:20,200 --> 01:13:24,200
Speaker 1: Your keep your proceeds. Everybody's happy. And former slaves thought, well,

1341
01:13:24,200 --> 01:13:25,720
Speaker 1: that sounds great because what I'll do is I'll save

1342
01:13:25,800 --> 01:13:28,160
Speaker 1: money up a year to year and then eventually I'll

1343
01:13:28,160 --> 01:13:30,960
Speaker 1: buy my own land. And then you know, American dream

1344
01:13:31,080 --> 01:13:35,120
Speaker 1: um and about of of former slaves managed to acquire

1345
01:13:35,160 --> 01:13:37,760
Speaker 1: their own land, which is not a great percentage. The

1346
01:13:37,800 --> 01:13:40,920
Speaker 1: problem is, uh, that's a good system. When it's a

1347
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:47,000
Speaker 1: good year, prices are high, there's no bowlwevil um, you know,

1348
01:13:47,120 --> 01:13:50,000
Speaker 1: there's no drought, you know whatever. But years where there's

1349
01:13:50,160 --> 01:13:54,599
Speaker 1: bad prices, bad weather, bad crop yield for some reason, Uh,

1350
01:13:54,640 --> 01:13:56,479
Speaker 1: you're not gonna make enough money even to pay back

1351
01:13:56,520 --> 01:13:58,559
Speaker 1: what you owe. So you wind up seeing this kind

1352
01:13:58,560 --> 01:14:01,400
Speaker 1: of cycle of perpetual debt and it winds up being

1353
01:14:01,400 --> 01:14:06,720
Speaker 1: a disastrous economic system. But for everybody involved, landowners weren't

1354
01:14:06,720 --> 01:14:10,200
Speaker 1: getting rich. Now, landowners saw you know, really really valuable land,

1355
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:14,080
Speaker 1: especially the really the real story here is the the

1356
01:14:14,120 --> 01:14:16,920
Speaker 1: international cotton market. You know, you start to see cotton

1357
01:14:16,960 --> 01:14:18,800
Speaker 1: from India and a few other places come on the

1358
01:14:18,800 --> 01:14:20,760
Speaker 1: market in the late nineteenth century, and prices just go

1359
01:14:20,840 --> 01:14:23,599
Speaker 1: on the toilet, and pretty soon the economy the South

1360
01:14:23,720 --> 01:14:27,720
Speaker 1: isn't is in shambles. But we still see, you know,

1361
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:30,720
Speaker 1: former slave owners that don't want to pay wages. They

1362
01:14:30,800 --> 01:14:33,080
Speaker 1: just I'm not acknowledging this. I don't want to pay

1363
01:14:33,160 --> 01:14:35,559
Speaker 1: money to these these guys. This isn't right, this isn't

1364
01:14:35,560 --> 01:14:37,879
Speaker 1: the way it used to be. And then former slaves,

1365
01:14:38,280 --> 01:14:41,000
Speaker 1: uh still wanted that freedom. So even though the system

1366
01:14:41,040 --> 01:14:43,720
Speaker 1: was inefficient, from the former slaves point of view, beat

1367
01:14:43,760 --> 01:14:45,800
Speaker 1: the hell out of slavery. And then from the former

1368
01:14:45,800 --> 01:14:47,800
Speaker 1: master's point of at least you weren't shelling out, you know,

1369
01:14:47,880 --> 01:14:50,880
Speaker 1: hard cash to your laborers. So it was a share

1370
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:53,040
Speaker 1: was a system that was supposed to be a really

1371
01:14:53,080 --> 01:14:55,160
Speaker 1: good thing for the South, but it didn't work out

1372
01:14:55,200 --> 01:15:01,479
Speaker 1: that way. And then they in your book you described

1373
01:15:01,560 --> 01:15:06,880
Speaker 1: this this thing that becomes like a very articulated problem. Um,

1374
01:15:06,880 --> 01:15:09,519
Speaker 1: and there's magazine articles written about how to deal with

1375
01:15:09,560 --> 01:15:20,200
Speaker 1: the problem. But people start landowners start pointing fingers at things, conditions, behaviors,

1376
01:15:20,520 --> 01:15:25,360
Speaker 1: activities that are enabling people to not come work. Yeah,

1377
01:15:25,439 --> 01:15:30,200
Speaker 1: and among these is this propensity for like going out

1378
01:15:30,240 --> 01:15:34,840
Speaker 1: and shooting your own food. Like that's a problem because

1379
01:15:34,840 --> 01:15:37,280
Speaker 1: if they weren't doing that, then they'd be more obligated

1380
01:15:37,320 --> 01:15:40,240
Speaker 1: to come work for me. Absolutely, you know. Um, the

1381
01:15:40,760 --> 01:15:42,760
Speaker 1: title of the last chapter of the book, the one

1382
01:15:42,800 --> 01:15:45,880
Speaker 1: about the conservation, which I guess we get to, but um,

1383
01:15:46,200 --> 01:15:48,240
Speaker 1: the title of that last chapter is when he should

1384
01:15:48,280 --> 01:15:50,960
Speaker 1: be between the plow handles, which basically you know that

1385
01:15:51,000 --> 01:15:53,720
Speaker 1: there's so many you know, mentions I came across in

1386
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:57,479
Speaker 1: sporting magazines and legal debates and things like that, you know,

1387
01:15:57,640 --> 01:16:00,479
Speaker 1: really pointing it at you know, self subsistence activities. There

1388
01:16:00,520 --> 01:16:02,240
Speaker 1: is a real problem. You're like, hey, if this guy

1389
01:16:02,280 --> 01:16:05,240
Speaker 1: can can feed himself and his family without working, for me,

1390
01:16:05,320 --> 01:16:07,519
Speaker 1: what kind of leverage does that give me? So I

1391
01:16:07,560 --> 01:16:11,160
Speaker 1: need I need more control. And uh, it's also eventually

1392
01:16:11,160 --> 01:16:14,160
Speaker 1: going to provide a pretty handy kind of cover for

1393
01:16:14,200 --> 01:16:18,400
Speaker 1: convincing reluctant Southerners to embrace conservation laws. We're not really

1394
01:16:18,400 --> 01:16:21,479
Speaker 1: going after you, we're going after former slaves because they're

1395
01:16:21,479 --> 01:16:24,360
Speaker 1: the ones that we're concerned about. So, you know it

1396
01:16:24,439 --> 01:16:26,000
Speaker 1: also and this is maybe too much at once here.

1397
01:16:26,200 --> 01:16:28,320
Speaker 1: But the other thing that that's that's really interesting to

1398
01:16:28,360 --> 01:16:31,600
Speaker 1: me about that that transition, immediate transition from slavery to

1399
01:16:31,680 --> 01:16:35,720
Speaker 1: freedom is um, you know, slaves, you know, reliance on

1400
01:16:35,760 --> 01:16:39,839
Speaker 1: small game, on whatever method worked on you know, uh

1401
01:16:39,880 --> 01:16:44,520
Speaker 1: effective you know, hunting and fishing. Uh. That was understood

1402
01:16:44,560 --> 01:16:47,200
Speaker 1: at the time by white observers like, yeah, well they're slaves.

1403
01:16:47,200 --> 01:16:49,280
Speaker 1: They they're they're limited in what they can do and

1404
01:16:49,400 --> 01:16:51,559
Speaker 1: that's the stuff they hunt and you know, they make

1405
01:16:51,600 --> 01:16:53,639
Speaker 1: the most of it. And then some of those same

1406
01:16:53,680 --> 01:16:57,040
Speaker 1: observers when they're writing in the post emancipation period, it's

1407
01:16:57,080 --> 01:17:02,000
Speaker 1: no longer well slaves privileged practical sport methods. It's all Africans.

1408
01:17:02,040 --> 01:17:05,479
Speaker 1: They're just by design they're incapable of appreciating the finer

1409
01:17:05,520 --> 01:17:08,960
Speaker 1: sporting traditions of the elites, so they do small game

1410
01:17:09,000 --> 01:17:12,519
Speaker 1: and they don't understand sporting methods and honor and things

1411
01:17:12,560 --> 01:17:14,880
Speaker 1: like that. So it becomes a handy way of kind

1412
01:17:14,880 --> 01:17:19,080
Speaker 1: of hanging some racial stereotypes. The thought is, it was

1413
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:24,880
Speaker 1: at the time. If former slaves have complete freedom to

1414
01:17:25,040 --> 01:17:28,160
Speaker 1: just feed themselves, you know, however they want to, not

1415
01:17:28,280 --> 01:17:32,519
Speaker 1: only does that hurt our ability to control labor. But

1416
01:17:32,760 --> 01:17:35,680
Speaker 1: the interesting thing is, if I've got a really fantastic

1417
01:17:36,600 --> 01:17:41,040
Speaker 1: slave plantation huntsman, I can tell my friends about this guy,

1418
01:17:41,120 --> 01:17:43,519
Speaker 1: I can brag about it. I know we're gonna have

1419
01:17:43,680 --> 01:17:46,400
Speaker 1: great supplies of meat, and it's just gonna be a

1420
01:17:46,439 --> 01:17:49,639
Speaker 1: really good thing for the plantation. But I don't want

1421
01:17:49,640 --> 01:17:52,960
Speaker 1: to acknowledge this guy's sporting prowess after emancipation. It's like,

1422
01:17:53,040 --> 01:17:57,040
Speaker 1: after emancipation, here's a guy whose abilities threatened my operation,

1423
01:17:57,680 --> 01:18:01,559
Speaker 1: someone whose skill flies in the face of the emerging

1424
01:18:01,640 --> 01:18:05,400
Speaker 1: idea that white sportsmen are the best an African sportsman.

1425
01:18:05,439 --> 01:18:09,800
Speaker 1: African American sportsmen are a level lower. So if you

1426
01:18:09,800 --> 01:18:12,519
Speaker 1: want to maintain the sort of white supremacy that's sort

1427
01:18:12,560 --> 01:18:15,919
Speaker 1: of emerging as the Jim Crow period, you know, begins,

1428
01:18:15,960 --> 01:18:19,559
Speaker 1: to deepen um. All of a sudden, the same activities

1429
01:18:19,560 --> 01:18:21,960
Speaker 1: that for some people weren't that really big of a problem,

1430
01:18:22,000 --> 01:18:23,880
Speaker 1: they're a big problem now because not only does it

1431
01:18:23,880 --> 01:18:27,599
Speaker 1: does it you know, the master slave relationship is gone

1432
01:18:28,120 --> 01:18:32,720
Speaker 1: because of because of emancipation and the methods that we

1433
01:18:32,840 --> 01:18:36,559
Speaker 1: used to celebrate slaves using, we are now seeing as

1434
01:18:36,640 --> 01:18:39,519
Speaker 1: as dangerous to the supply of game, which is eventually

1435
01:18:39,560 --> 01:18:42,400
Speaker 1: gonna be really bad for tourism because once the Southern

1436
01:18:42,400 --> 01:18:45,240
Speaker 1: economy goes down in the late eighteen eighties and nineties,

1437
01:18:45,800 --> 01:18:48,840
Speaker 1: tourism becomes their big they're big source of revenue. So

1438
01:18:48,960 --> 01:18:53,519
Speaker 1: there's what was sort of a quaint feature of the

1439
01:18:53,560 --> 01:18:56,960
Speaker 1: Antebellum period, Oh, loyal slaves out in the woods hunting

1440
01:18:57,120 --> 01:19:01,720
Speaker 1: because I allow it. After emancipation, independent people out in

1441
01:19:01,720 --> 01:19:05,240
Speaker 1: the woods making a living away from me, hunting in

1442
01:19:05,320 --> 01:19:08,800
Speaker 1: ways that I don't think are appropriate, and that could

1443
01:19:08,800 --> 01:19:12,600
Speaker 1: even be dangerous because you know, because of firearms. You know,

1444
01:19:14,920 --> 01:19:17,559
Speaker 1: I was just gonna ask I add a question related

1445
01:19:17,600 --> 01:19:20,360
Speaker 1: to that and just if you can explain it with that,

1446
01:19:20,800 --> 01:19:25,160
Speaker 1: because it was cool to write like before during Antimellon period,

1447
01:19:25,280 --> 01:19:28,320
Speaker 1: right to have like a slave, that was a great

1448
01:19:28,360 --> 01:19:31,000
Speaker 1: huntsman and you you talk about how when people would

1449
01:19:31,040 --> 01:19:34,800
Speaker 1: come in from other places, how that was part of

1450
01:19:34,880 --> 01:19:38,280
Speaker 1: the whole experience to go hunt in the South, which

1451
01:19:38,320 --> 01:19:40,559
Speaker 1: to be to hunt. But you but but it would

1452
01:19:40,600 --> 01:19:45,120
Speaker 1: include these black slaves. Did that Did that same feeling

1453
01:19:45,479 --> 01:19:50,640
Speaker 1: continue after emancipation, like for for just a general like

1454
01:19:50,760 --> 01:19:55,200
Speaker 1: hunting tourism industry. So it was like a double conundrum

1455
01:19:55,280 --> 01:19:58,439
Speaker 1: at that point, right, because they still wanted them for that,

1456
01:19:58,600 --> 01:20:00,920
Speaker 1: but again they didn't they would maybe have to start

1457
01:20:00,920 --> 01:20:04,120
Speaker 1: paying them or or do you get my question? I do,

1458
01:20:04,360 --> 01:20:06,639
Speaker 1: And it's a good one. So that the double conundrum issue,

1459
01:20:06,720 --> 01:20:09,680
Speaker 1: it's it's a really tricky one because you know, think

1460
01:20:09,680 --> 01:20:12,559
Speaker 1: about it from the point of view of a slave

1461
01:20:12,600 --> 01:20:19,120
Speaker 1: owner and you know, so you've got uh slaves working

1462
01:20:19,160 --> 01:20:22,080
Speaker 1: for you that are engaging in all of these activities,

1463
01:20:22,280 --> 01:20:24,640
Speaker 1: and you have no problem with it, right maybe you

1464
01:20:24,680 --> 01:20:26,479
Speaker 1: know some in some cases they did. They were masters

1465
01:20:26,520 --> 01:20:28,120
Speaker 1: who didn't want their slaves to hunt because they're not

1466
01:20:28,200 --> 01:20:30,519
Speaker 1: too much independence. I want them dependent on me. I

1467
01:20:30,560 --> 01:20:33,320
Speaker 1: don't want them out running around. But if you were

1468
01:20:33,360 --> 01:20:36,639
Speaker 1: a slave owner who said, um nah, I can't trust

1469
01:20:36,640 --> 01:20:39,120
Speaker 1: my slaves to go out and hunt and fish, somebody

1470
01:20:39,200 --> 01:20:42,000
Speaker 1: might say, why can't you trust your slaves? Are you

1471
01:20:42,040 --> 01:20:44,080
Speaker 1: a crappy slave owner? I mean, if you were a

1472
01:20:44,080 --> 01:20:46,000
Speaker 1: good master, you'd be able to let them do these

1473
01:20:46,000 --> 01:20:48,320
Speaker 1: things and it would be to your benefit. So there

1474
01:20:48,360 --> 01:20:50,879
Speaker 1: was almost this sense of you know, they're an extension

1475
01:20:50,920 --> 01:20:54,759
Speaker 1: of me, so it's okay, but that that that connection

1476
01:20:54,840 --> 01:20:58,800
Speaker 1: is broken by emancipation. And the interesting thing is it

1477
01:20:58,840 --> 01:21:04,599
Speaker 1: becomes more important after emancipation, is what I discovered because um,

1478
01:21:04,600 --> 01:21:07,200
Speaker 1: in the minds of saying northern tourists, you know, the

1479
01:21:07,520 --> 01:21:11,840
Speaker 1: Antebellum period doesn't really become the Antabellum period until you know,

1480
01:21:12,000 --> 01:21:14,439
Speaker 1: later in the nineteenth century when we start to get

1481
01:21:14,439 --> 01:21:17,080
Speaker 1: that sort of gone with the wind rose colored glasses,

1482
01:21:17,360 --> 01:21:20,519
Speaker 1: romantic notion of what the South used to be, and

1483
01:21:20,560 --> 01:21:24,280
Speaker 1: that was really appealing to northern visitors. You know, countries industrializing,

1484
01:21:24,439 --> 01:21:28,960
Speaker 1: changing rapidly. You know what's what's traditional in the country, Well,

1485
01:21:29,080 --> 01:21:34,960
Speaker 1: the Annabellum South, quaint plantations, women in fancy dresses, you know,

1486
01:21:35,000 --> 01:21:39,120
Speaker 1: all all those images exactly know, and part and parcel

1487
01:21:39,200 --> 01:21:41,640
Speaker 1: of that memory for a lot of Americans was the

1488
01:21:41,640 --> 01:21:45,360
Speaker 1: presence of people of color. So what what landowners in

1489
01:21:45,360 --> 01:21:48,040
Speaker 1: the South started to realize you know, after the Civil War,

1490
01:21:48,360 --> 01:21:51,080
Speaker 1: is the land is not very good in some spots

1491
01:21:51,160 --> 01:21:54,599
Speaker 1: here for plantation agriculture anymore. But we've got all these

1492
01:21:54,600 --> 01:21:57,040
Speaker 1: Northerners that want to come down here and consume the

1493
01:21:57,080 --> 01:21:59,760
Speaker 1: old South or at least yeah, they want to hunt,

1494
01:21:59,800 --> 01:22:01,559
Speaker 1: they wanna you know, they want to get out there

1495
01:22:01,560 --> 01:22:04,400
Speaker 1: and feel and feel like a Southerner of old. And

1496
01:22:04,439 --> 01:22:06,760
Speaker 1: from the white perspective back then, what better way to

1497
01:22:06,800 --> 01:22:09,479
Speaker 1: feel like a Southerner of old than to have black

1498
01:22:09,560 --> 01:22:14,120
Speaker 1: laborers attending you, just like white masters did before emancipation.

1499
01:22:14,320 --> 01:22:17,479
Speaker 1: So it was almost like recreating that scene, and it

1500
01:22:17,600 --> 01:22:21,240
Speaker 1: really became, you know, away for white Southerners who were

1501
01:22:21,320 --> 01:22:25,120
Speaker 1: especially former slaves, to to kind of convince themselves, Okay,

1502
01:22:25,160 --> 01:22:28,559
Speaker 1: the world is still right, it's still us here, we're

1503
01:22:28,600 --> 01:22:32,439
Speaker 1: still served by people of color, just like the old days.

1504
01:22:33,080 --> 01:22:37,160
Speaker 1: Um so, so they were just like at that point,

1505
01:22:37,160 --> 01:22:43,320
Speaker 1: did they become hired like help because it was post emancipation. Yeah,

1506
01:22:43,400 --> 01:22:45,479
Speaker 1: when when you started and then get and can on

1507
01:22:45,560 --> 01:22:47,840
Speaker 1: the on the heels of that can answer like what

1508
01:22:47,880 --> 01:22:50,760
Speaker 1: did it look like then? Did the African Americans like

1509
01:22:50,840 --> 01:22:54,479
Speaker 1: work as guides or were they like cooks or like

1510
01:22:54,520 --> 01:22:56,519
Speaker 1: how did it how what did that little scene look

1511
01:22:56,520 --> 01:23:01,680
Speaker 1: like when someone from the north came down to to Shoever, Well,

1512
01:23:01,760 --> 01:23:03,640
Speaker 1: that really started kind of in the eighteen seventies and

1513
01:23:03,640 --> 01:23:06,960
Speaker 1: eighteen eighties, and uh, you started to see the kind

1514
01:23:06,960 --> 01:23:10,680
Speaker 1: of the trickle of of visitors to the south that

1515
01:23:10,720 --> 01:23:14,640
Speaker 1: we're interested in going there specifically for sporting reasons. Uh,

1516
01:23:14,720 --> 01:23:17,280
Speaker 1: really turns into a flood. It's just a huge number

1517
01:23:17,280 --> 01:23:19,800
Speaker 1: of people start going there. And the reason that is

1518
01:23:19,800 --> 01:23:23,240
Speaker 1: is because as the farmland, especially rice, rice was one

1519
01:23:23,280 --> 01:23:26,400
Speaker 1: of the crops that was just becoming really difficult. Uh,

1520
01:23:26,439 --> 01:23:30,480
Speaker 1: and then coastal cotton was also becoming a tough sell. Um.

1521
01:23:30,600 --> 01:23:33,280
Speaker 1: So it hits some of these landowners. I bet we

1522
01:23:33,320 --> 01:23:36,280
Speaker 1: could sell our land to a developer who wants to,

1523
01:23:36,520 --> 01:23:38,760
Speaker 1: you know, make a tourist retreat out of this, or

1524
01:23:38,760 --> 01:23:41,080
Speaker 1: I could even run it myself as a as a

1525
01:23:41,080 --> 01:23:43,800
Speaker 1: as a sporting operation. And what they found is when

1526
01:23:43,800 --> 01:23:47,759
Speaker 1: these visitors started to come down, they expected black labors.

1527
01:23:48,200 --> 01:23:51,240
Speaker 1: That was the way to complete the scene. And so

1528
01:23:51,320 --> 01:23:54,880
Speaker 1: basically you name it. I mean you would have people

1529
01:23:54,920 --> 01:23:58,600
Speaker 1: of color on plantations to serve as cooks, guides, you know,

1530
01:23:58,640 --> 01:24:01,040
Speaker 1: kind of basic laborers. People carry the tents, people to

1531
01:24:01,120 --> 01:24:04,120
Speaker 1: carry the guns, people that manage the dogs right up

1532
01:24:04,160 --> 01:24:06,800
Speaker 1: into you know, the larger outfits would have, you know,

1533
01:24:07,320 --> 01:24:10,719
Speaker 1: choruses and performers of color that could entertain their guests

1534
01:24:10,760 --> 01:24:13,519
Speaker 1: while they were there. So it's almost like blackness was

1535
01:24:13,520 --> 01:24:15,960
Speaker 1: a big part of the scene. And I came across

1536
01:24:16,439 --> 01:24:19,519
Speaker 1: hundreds and hundreds of references and national sporting magazines that

1537
01:24:19,520 --> 01:24:21,360
Speaker 1: are basically like, oh man, you've got to go down

1538
01:24:21,439 --> 01:24:25,120
Speaker 1: to Mississippi. It's like eight thirty down there. It's amazing.

1539
01:24:25,640 --> 01:24:28,439
Speaker 1: So you can really see the racism and the sort

1540
01:24:28,479 --> 01:24:32,320
Speaker 1: of racial attitudes alive and well. And that was something

1541
01:24:32,400 --> 01:24:34,360
Speaker 1: else that surprised me when I switched to the post

1542
01:24:34,520 --> 01:24:37,559
Speaker 1: emancipation period. I didn't realize how much race would be

1543
01:24:37,600 --> 01:24:41,240
Speaker 1: discussed in national public Incredible. It's one of these that

1544
01:24:41,280 --> 01:24:43,160
Speaker 1: blew my mind about it. And like, if you're listening

1545
01:24:43,240 --> 01:24:44,840
Speaker 1: to us talking about this, you got to understand that

1546
01:24:44,840 --> 01:24:46,800
Speaker 1: when you go read the book, it's not like he's

1547
01:24:47,320 --> 01:24:52,360
Speaker 1: it's not like Scott the author is drawing wild conclusions.

1548
01:24:52,360 --> 01:24:55,200
Speaker 1: I mean, it's all it's documented. It's like all laid

1549
01:24:55,240 --> 01:24:57,719
Speaker 1: out quote for quote for quote, like what people said,

1550
01:24:57,800 --> 01:25:01,000
Speaker 1: how things were advertised, how they described your experiences, what

1551
01:25:01,120 --> 01:25:06,679
Speaker 1: the articles wrote about it is amazing. Um, it's funny

1552
01:25:06,800 --> 01:25:10,880
Speaker 1: you you wouldn't now, you wouldn't be able to read

1553
01:25:10,920 --> 01:25:16,920
Speaker 1: out loud newspaper articles because they used a certain language.

1554
01:25:17,960 --> 01:25:23,160
Speaker 1: It was just talked about blatantly, like you always kind

1555
01:25:23,200 --> 01:25:26,000
Speaker 1: of can't believe what you're reading when you read some

1556
01:25:26,040 --> 01:25:30,240
Speaker 1: people's attitudes total the human beings that they decided was

1557
01:25:30,280 --> 01:25:32,240
Speaker 1: fit to write in a letter to the editor, to

1558
01:25:32,280 --> 01:25:36,320
Speaker 1: the hunting and fishing bag and just say insane like

1559
01:25:36,360 --> 01:25:39,800
Speaker 1: not even you shouldn't call the saning, just say blatantly,

1560
01:25:40,760 --> 01:25:46,439
Speaker 1: like blatant, horrific racist stuff in a letter to the editor,

1561
01:25:47,439 --> 01:25:50,400
Speaker 1: pointing the finger at certain individuals who don't conform to

1562
01:25:51,600 --> 01:26:03,320
Speaker 1: whatever kind of hunting and fishing standards ahead. Another thing,

1563
01:26:03,560 --> 01:26:06,320
Speaker 1: and you actually bring this up, is people struggling with

1564
01:26:06,720 --> 01:26:10,639
Speaker 1: to just the pro wess of some former slaves who

1565
01:26:10,640 --> 01:26:12,240
Speaker 1: are who are They would admit like this guy's the

1566
01:26:12,240 --> 01:26:16,920
Speaker 1: best hunter ever, which which is okay to say in

1567
01:26:16,920 --> 01:26:20,760
Speaker 1: the Annabellum period. Yeah, or anyway, just got like, oh man,

1568
01:26:20,880 --> 01:26:22,880
Speaker 1: this guy is really something to watch in the woods

1569
01:26:22,920 --> 01:26:25,800
Speaker 1: and always knows where the game is. But at the

1570
01:26:25,880 --> 01:26:28,800
Speaker 1: end of the day, he's a black guy. Yeah, you know,

1571
01:26:28,920 --> 01:26:30,479
Speaker 1: it was like there's like they just come out and

1572
01:26:30,560 --> 01:26:32,439
Speaker 1: like kind of like balance it out. They want to

1573
01:26:32,439 --> 01:26:35,120
Speaker 1: like there's a there's an element of praise and then

1574
01:26:35,120 --> 01:26:38,040
Speaker 1: there's an element of like context. Yeah, and then I

1575
01:26:38,960 --> 01:26:41,360
Speaker 1: you see people just struggle with it. Yeah, my my,

1576
01:26:41,960 --> 01:26:44,599
Speaker 1: so real quick. There's there's two two little episodes. I'll mention.

1577
01:26:44,680 --> 01:26:47,200
Speaker 1: One is on the first thing you mentioned about these

1578
01:26:47,280 --> 01:26:49,560
Speaker 1: letters to the editors of sporting magazines. There was a

1579
01:26:50,000 --> 01:26:52,960
Speaker 1: really well known uh sportsman in the nineteenth century named

1580
01:26:52,960 --> 01:26:55,479
Speaker 1: Emerson Huff. I think it's pronounced tough for how I'm

1581
01:26:55,479 --> 01:26:57,800
Speaker 1: not sure which one, but he's from Chicago, and he

1582
01:26:57,840 --> 01:27:01,439
Speaker 1: wrote pretty frequently to to Forest and Stream and Uh.

1583
01:27:01,520 --> 01:27:05,000
Speaker 1: He was writing about his thoughts on the very best

1584
01:27:05,040 --> 01:27:08,240
Speaker 1: place to go to to hunt and he said, you know,

1585
01:27:08,320 --> 01:27:10,240
Speaker 1: for my money, you got to go to the South.

1586
01:27:10,640 --> 01:27:13,439
Speaker 1: And he talked about the game and the conditions and

1587
01:27:13,439 --> 01:27:15,479
Speaker 1: the sort of the technical stuff. But then he said,

1588
01:27:15,479 --> 01:27:17,240
Speaker 1: and you know the best thing about it is there

1589
01:27:17,240 --> 01:27:20,200
Speaker 1: are all these former slaves, he said, negroes, with all

1590
01:27:20,240 --> 01:27:24,960
Speaker 1: his negroes, and they're great, and my god, they're incredible

1591
01:27:24,960 --> 01:27:29,120
Speaker 1: servants because that's you know, that's their their history and uh,

1592
01:27:29,120 --> 01:27:31,400
Speaker 1: it's this the best. You go down there and they

1593
01:27:31,439 --> 01:27:35,280
Speaker 1: do whatever you say, and it's just the most amazing experience.

1594
01:27:35,320 --> 01:27:37,840
Speaker 1: You feel so served and you feel like a king.

1595
01:27:38,520 --> 01:27:41,520
Speaker 1: And then he wrapped up his editorial by saying, um,

1596
01:27:41,560 --> 01:27:44,280
Speaker 1: you know, if I could have one of the fondest

1597
01:27:44,320 --> 01:27:46,880
Speaker 1: wishes of my heart fulfilled, and I'm quoting somehow the

1598
01:27:46,920 --> 01:27:48,400
Speaker 1: quotes in my head, if I could have one of

1599
01:27:48,400 --> 01:27:51,919
Speaker 1: the fondest wishes of my heart fulfilled, I would expert

1600
01:27:52,040 --> 01:27:56,240
Speaker 1: export four thirds of Chicago negroes. And I wouldn't send

1601
01:27:56,280 --> 01:27:59,800
Speaker 1: them to Liberia either. In other words, I'd love to

1602
01:27:59,800 --> 01:28:02,080
Speaker 1: set them back down to the South where they still

1603
01:28:02,120 --> 01:28:07,080
Speaker 1: know about white supremacy and hierarchy and in servitude. And

1604
01:28:07,240 --> 01:28:10,840
Speaker 1: that sort of praising of of the old South was

1605
01:28:11,000 --> 01:28:14,280
Speaker 1: really common in sporting publications nationally. Was a huge part

1606
01:28:14,280 --> 01:28:16,760
Speaker 1: of the draw. And they're they're hu Kail and Deer, right.

1607
01:28:17,120 --> 01:28:18,960
Speaker 1: Quail and Deer were two were two of the big ones.

1608
01:28:19,479 --> 01:28:21,639
Speaker 1: Black Bear in the Deep South was a big one.

1609
01:28:21,840 --> 01:28:23,920
Speaker 1: But that was you know, that was a big money

1610
01:28:24,280 --> 01:28:26,559
Speaker 1: you know, usually the the the elite elites were the

1611
01:28:26,560 --> 01:28:29,599
Speaker 1: ones who went on big excursions for Black Bear. But uh, yeah,

1612
01:28:29,680 --> 01:28:31,280
Speaker 1: Quail and and deer were sort of the big ones

1613
01:28:31,479 --> 01:28:35,400
Speaker 1: explain the gun rights issue back then, because um, the

1614
01:28:35,439 --> 01:28:40,760
Speaker 1: Second Amendment was well understood, but man was not applied uniformly, No,

1615
01:28:40,960 --> 01:28:42,479
Speaker 1: not at all, and that's what they really want, you know,

1616
01:28:42,479 --> 01:28:44,360
Speaker 1: really one of the one of the big you know,

1617
01:28:44,360 --> 01:28:45,880
Speaker 1: one of the big sticking points, you know, as you

1618
01:28:45,920 --> 01:28:50,479
Speaker 1: could imagine, because when you start to get you know,

1619
01:28:50,560 --> 01:28:54,400
Speaker 1: there's just this big tension that emerges right after emancipation

1620
01:28:54,439 --> 01:28:56,960
Speaker 1: in the South. So we started to see the emergence

1621
01:28:57,000 --> 01:29:01,240
Speaker 1: of this really popular resort tourism based on on hunting

1622
01:29:01,240 --> 01:29:04,519
Speaker 1: and fishing, particularly hunting in the South, and that's making

1623
01:29:04,560 --> 01:29:06,760
Speaker 1: a lot of money for this for Southern landowners and

1624
01:29:06,800 --> 01:29:10,240
Speaker 1: Southern you know, proprietors, and that really kind of put

1625
01:29:10,280 --> 01:29:12,639
Speaker 1: certain demands on them. One is to make sure there's

1626
01:29:12,640 --> 01:29:15,040
Speaker 1: an available supply of black labor to satisfy, you know,

1627
01:29:15,120 --> 01:29:18,680
Speaker 1: the image the public wants. The other thing is we've

1628
01:29:18,680 --> 01:29:21,360
Speaker 1: got to protect this play game because if if this

1629
01:29:21,439 --> 01:29:23,600
Speaker 1: kind of tourism is going to be where our livelihood

1630
01:29:23,600 --> 01:29:26,200
Speaker 1: comes from for the foreseeable future, we've got to protect it.

1631
01:29:26,720 --> 01:29:30,040
Speaker 1: So Southern Southern started talking about the need for conservation

1632
01:29:30,120 --> 01:29:32,880
Speaker 1: laws and the need for you know, state licensing or

1633
01:29:32,880 --> 01:29:36,360
Speaker 1: bag limits or you know, restrictions on guns, things like that,

1634
01:29:36,880 --> 01:29:42,400
Speaker 1: and most average Southerners, especially non elites, were like, hell, no,

1635
01:29:42,400 --> 01:29:44,880
Speaker 1: no way, we want no part of this, and there

1636
01:29:44,960 --> 01:29:48,479
Speaker 1: was massive resistance to it. So conservation in the South

1637
01:29:48,600 --> 01:29:51,160
Speaker 1: lags behind really the whole rest of the country. You're saying,

1638
01:29:51,280 --> 01:29:56,439
Speaker 1: so just make sure poor like poor white Southerners were

1639
01:29:56,520 --> 01:30:02,280
Speaker 1: not hip to game regulations being handed down from elite

1640
01:30:02,800 --> 01:30:05,519
Speaker 1: plantation operators. No, not at all, because you know, really

1641
01:30:05,560 --> 01:30:08,439
Speaker 1: the you know, removing race from the equation. For a second,

1642
01:30:08,960 --> 01:30:13,360
Speaker 1: when when hunting sort of arrives in the colonial period, uh,

1643
01:30:13,360 --> 01:30:15,360
Speaker 1: and not everyone hunted. I mean it was you know,

1644
01:30:15,439 --> 01:30:17,479
Speaker 1: everyone did it because it was a practical thing. But

1645
01:30:17,600 --> 01:30:21,599
Speaker 1: when elite Southerners, when plantation owners began to hunt, they

1646
01:30:21,600 --> 01:30:24,920
Speaker 1: were not shy or elusive at all about saying, we're

1647
01:30:25,000 --> 01:30:28,719
Speaker 1: doing this because aristocrats hunt. So we're gonna hunt fox,

1648
01:30:28,760 --> 01:30:31,080
Speaker 1: and we're gonna hunt stags, and we're gonna pretend like

1649
01:30:31,120 --> 01:30:35,120
Speaker 1: we're just old school European privileged nobles. That's how they

1650
01:30:35,200 --> 01:30:38,920
Speaker 1: set it up. And poor Southerners knew that, and they

1651
01:30:38,960 --> 01:30:43,960
Speaker 1: were deeply suspicious of any attempt to regulate. Uh, access

1652
01:30:44,000 --> 01:30:47,280
Speaker 1: to our methods for acquiring game, because they thought it

1653
01:30:47,320 --> 01:30:50,800
Speaker 1: was just old school, these elite guys trying to control things,

1654
01:30:50,840 --> 01:30:54,320
Speaker 1: so we don't get our fair share. So when the process,

1655
01:30:54,400 --> 01:30:57,760
Speaker 1: you know, in the early twentieth century, then becomes Okay,

1656
01:30:57,800 --> 01:31:01,599
Speaker 1: these pan the ass poor whites are existing these conservation laws.

1657
01:31:01,600 --> 01:31:03,800
Speaker 1: They just don't get it, why it's valuable and why

1658
01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:06,800
Speaker 1: it's necessary. So okay, fine, what can we do to

1659
01:31:06,840 --> 01:31:10,880
Speaker 1: convince them? Hey, everyone, here's the race car. Let's let's

1660
01:31:10,880 --> 01:31:12,800
Speaker 1: put this right in front of your face. You know, hey,

1661
01:31:12,840 --> 01:31:15,280
Speaker 1: if you want to control the black population, make sure

1662
01:31:15,320 --> 01:31:17,400
Speaker 1: they're in their place. Make sure they're not owning guns

1663
01:31:17,400 --> 01:31:19,160
Speaker 1: they shouldn't have. Make sure they're not killing all the

1664
01:31:19,160 --> 01:31:21,960
Speaker 1: big game that we want to kill. We need these conservations.

1665
01:31:21,960 --> 01:31:24,720
Speaker 1: We're not coming after you, we promise. So it was

1666
01:31:24,760 --> 01:31:28,600
Speaker 1: sort of using that how is that actually how is

1667
01:31:28,600 --> 01:31:34,920
Speaker 1: that actually articulated? Well, it's interesting, so articulated or enforced

1668
01:31:35,040 --> 01:31:38,200
Speaker 1: or it's it's rarely, if ever articulated in the law.

1669
01:31:38,520 --> 01:31:40,439
Speaker 1: And that's one of the interesting things about the whole

1670
01:31:40,479 --> 01:31:44,920
Speaker 1: post war period. Uh, you know, as Jim Crow becomes um,

1671
01:31:44,960 --> 01:31:48,000
Speaker 1: you know, more and more powerful, you know, for example,

1672
01:31:48,040 --> 01:31:52,799
Speaker 1: by nine you know, African Americans are largely disfranchised across

1673
01:31:52,800 --> 01:31:55,080
Speaker 1: the South. Hardly any black people are voting because of

1674
01:31:55,120 --> 01:31:58,880
Speaker 1: the new state constitutions. But those new state constitutions don't

1675
01:31:58,920 --> 01:32:02,599
Speaker 1: say black people can't vote. They say you can't vote

1676
01:32:02,600 --> 01:32:05,240
Speaker 1: if your grandfather couldn't vote, or you have to pay

1677
01:32:05,240 --> 01:32:07,519
Speaker 1: a ten dollar poll text to vote, or a bunch

1678
01:32:07,560 --> 01:32:10,720
Speaker 1: of measures designed to keep black people from voting. And

1679
01:32:10,720 --> 01:32:12,760
Speaker 1: the same thing with the conservation laws. You're not going

1680
01:32:12,800 --> 01:32:15,559
Speaker 1: to see. Um, you know, you have to pay ten

1681
01:32:15,600 --> 01:32:18,840
Speaker 1: dollars to UH to buy an instate hunting permit now

1682
01:32:19,479 --> 01:32:21,519
Speaker 1: so we can keep people of color and check it

1683
01:32:21,560 --> 01:32:25,000
Speaker 1: basically just says ten dollar. You know, in state licensing

1684
01:32:25,160 --> 01:32:27,800
Speaker 1: with South Carolina nineteen o six or whatever past a

1685
01:32:27,840 --> 01:32:31,320
Speaker 1: ten dollar licensing fee. And I'm sorry it was a

1686
01:32:31,360 --> 01:32:34,479
Speaker 1: dollar for a dollar for residents, ten dollars for non residents.

1687
01:32:34,560 --> 01:32:36,960
Speaker 1: That's what it was. And they didn't mention race at

1688
01:32:36,960 --> 01:32:38,360
Speaker 1: all in the law. But it would be a simple

1689
01:32:38,400 --> 01:32:41,680
Speaker 1: matter of Okay, you gotta go buy your permit, and

1690
01:32:41,720 --> 01:32:43,639
Speaker 1: then a white person shows up to buy the permit

1691
01:32:43,640 --> 01:32:46,760
Speaker 1: and they gotta worry about it, or or they're out

1692
01:32:46,760 --> 01:32:49,080
Speaker 1: in the woods and uh, they come across a person

1693
01:32:49,120 --> 01:32:51,040
Speaker 1: of color doesn't have a permit, Well, I'm gonna find them,

1694
01:32:51,120 --> 01:32:53,160
Speaker 1: poor white guy or whatever. So it's sort of the

1695
01:32:53,240 --> 01:32:57,000
Speaker 1: enforcement where that the flexibility was there. But then it's

1696
01:32:57,040 --> 01:33:00,320
Speaker 1: funny because that might be the case and in terms

1697
01:33:00,360 --> 01:33:02,920
Speaker 1: of how it's codified, like how it's actually spelled out

1698
01:33:02,960 --> 01:33:05,519
Speaker 1: the law. But then, as you demonstrate in your book

1699
01:33:05,520 --> 01:33:08,400
Speaker 1: with Just With again, people in their own voices giving

1700
01:33:08,439 --> 01:33:12,160
Speaker 1: their own perspectives. At the same time, it's being articulated

1701
01:33:12,840 --> 01:33:17,800
Speaker 1: in public opinion very differently, very explicitly. Yeah, absolutely, and

1702
01:33:17,960 --> 01:33:21,880
Speaker 1: like they're explicit, like what the people are explicit about

1703
01:33:21,920 --> 01:33:25,000
Speaker 1: what they're trying to accomplish. Yeah, when you know the

1704
01:33:25,080 --> 01:33:27,519
Speaker 1: rules they draft aren't explicit, but you look at like

1705
01:33:27,520 --> 01:33:29,639
Speaker 1: the people pushing for it, and they make no bones

1706
01:33:29,640 --> 01:33:32,200
Speaker 1: about it what they want to see happen. You know.

1707
01:33:32,320 --> 01:33:35,400
Speaker 1: South Carolina is a good example. I'm drawing. I want

1708
01:33:35,400 --> 01:33:38,880
Speaker 1: to say it was Richardson was his last name, anyway,

1709
01:33:38,920 --> 01:33:40,960
Speaker 1: he was he was chief game warden for South Carolina.

1710
01:33:41,080 --> 01:33:45,320
Speaker 1: This is really early twentieth century and basically he's on

1711
01:33:45,560 --> 01:33:48,160
Speaker 1: a pr campaign. He's traveling across the state speaking at

1712
01:33:48,200 --> 01:33:52,360
Speaker 1: farmers clubs and sportsmen organizations talking about this new licensing

1713
01:33:52,439 --> 01:33:55,360
Speaker 1: system and some of these new laws. And even though

1714
01:33:55,360 --> 01:33:57,519
Speaker 1: the law itself doesn't say it, you don't find those

1715
01:33:58,120 --> 01:34:01,040
Speaker 1: descriptions and any kind of official government application. But I

1716
01:34:01,080 --> 01:34:03,599
Speaker 1: have some transcripts that I quote in the book from

1717
01:34:03,600 --> 01:34:06,160
Speaker 1: some of those speeches he gives, and he explicitly says,

1718
01:34:06,200 --> 01:34:08,519
Speaker 1: you know, look, we want to get guns out of

1719
01:34:08,520 --> 01:34:11,400
Speaker 1: the hands of former slaves, and these kind of laws

1720
01:34:11,479 --> 01:34:12,680
Speaker 1: is kind of the only way we can do it

1721
01:34:12,760 --> 01:34:15,960
Speaker 1: that looks remotely constitutional. So help us out here, folks,

1722
01:34:16,000 --> 01:34:19,320
Speaker 1: we gotta play the game. It was really obvious when

1723
01:34:19,320 --> 01:34:21,519
Speaker 1: it was spoken, because you know, and the reason they

1724
01:34:21,560 --> 01:34:23,120
Speaker 1: didn't bother putting it and they didn't want to put

1725
01:34:23,120 --> 01:34:25,799
Speaker 1: it in the laws is the sort of big picture

1726
01:34:25,920 --> 01:34:30,280
Speaker 1: fear that hung over all Southerners back then as Jim

1727
01:34:30,320 --> 01:34:32,960
Speaker 1: Crow was emerging, is that the federal government would come back.

1728
01:34:33,400 --> 01:34:36,519
Speaker 1: You know, when reconstruction ended, in military rule ended, and

1729
01:34:36,640 --> 01:34:38,400
Speaker 1: this you know, the North pulled out of the South

1730
01:34:38,479 --> 01:34:41,720
Speaker 1: and states were given control back of their individual operations.

1731
01:34:42,360 --> 01:34:44,360
Speaker 1: You know that the the Senatement was basically, Okay, let's

1732
01:34:44,400 --> 01:34:47,920
Speaker 1: let's find a comfortable level of control that we can

1733
01:34:47,960 --> 01:34:51,040
Speaker 1: assert over people of color in a way that doesn't

1734
01:34:51,120 --> 01:34:53,920
Speaker 1: risk the federal government getting back involved in we don't

1735
01:34:53,920 --> 01:34:56,120
Speaker 1: want them in the civil rights business. And it worked

1736
01:34:56,400 --> 01:34:59,840
Speaker 1: right because the federal government sends troops, you know, in

1737
01:35:00,000 --> 01:35:02,080
Speaker 1: the South with a civil war, and they withdraw in

1738
01:35:02,120 --> 01:35:05,200
Speaker 1: eighteen seventy seven. Federal troops don't go to the South

1739
01:35:05,280 --> 01:35:09,360
Speaker 1: to enforce black civil rights again until nineteen fifty five

1740
01:35:09,560 --> 01:35:11,880
Speaker 1: with Central High School and Little Rock when they integrated.

1741
01:35:12,520 --> 01:35:15,760
Speaker 1: Uh So they were trying to to get what they

1742
01:35:15,840 --> 01:35:18,400
Speaker 1: wanted without being too overt about it. At the local level,

1743
01:35:18,600 --> 01:35:20,719
Speaker 1: they were just you know what this is about, please

1744
01:35:20,760 --> 01:35:22,840
Speaker 1: support this, and even that it was a tough sell.

1745
01:35:23,120 --> 01:35:25,679
Speaker 1: I mean it was. I thought about doing another book

1746
01:35:25,760 --> 01:35:29,040
Speaker 1: on just the conservation movement in the South. You still will,

1747
01:35:29,439 --> 01:35:32,080
Speaker 1: but um, that's kind That's where my next question goes,

1748
01:35:33,040 --> 01:35:35,360
Speaker 1: because there's a thing I feel like you don't not

1749
01:35:35,439 --> 01:35:38,960
Speaker 1: that you don't get it right, but I feel like

1750
01:35:39,000 --> 01:35:43,360
Speaker 1: you you didn't like accentuated enough. And and he already

1751
01:35:43,360 --> 01:35:45,720
Speaker 1: told you I didn't read it in its entirety, but

1752
01:35:45,840 --> 01:35:48,400
Speaker 1: did a thorough like you know, so maybe you'll just

1753
01:35:48,400 --> 01:35:50,280
Speaker 1: prove me. Hopefully it'll just prove me that I'm wrong.

1754
01:35:51,320 --> 01:35:54,519
Speaker 1: Is it the same conversations though, or when you get

1755
01:35:54,560 --> 01:36:01,880
Speaker 1: into the early the same conversations even outside of say

1756
01:36:01,880 --> 01:36:05,600
Speaker 1: that better, the same conversations about certain hunting practices, the

1757
01:36:05,680 --> 01:36:10,120
Speaker 1: same conversations about commercial market hunting, the same conversations about

1758
01:36:10,160 --> 01:36:14,639
Speaker 1: bag limits, the same conversations about netting game are all

1759
01:36:14,720 --> 01:36:19,000
Speaker 1: happening in the North, where there is not a master

1760
01:36:19,200 --> 01:36:25,080
Speaker 1: slave history. Right, But it's simply people like Roosevelt. And sure,

1761
01:36:25,320 --> 01:36:28,360
Speaker 1: you know, I'm not aware of it. There's no doubt

1762
01:36:28,400 --> 01:36:31,800
Speaker 1: it exists that Roosevelt probably had as someone to lie

1763
01:36:31,840 --> 01:36:34,880
Speaker 1: when he was alive, probably had racist sentiments like I'm

1764
01:36:35,200 --> 01:36:39,640
Speaker 1: sure there's probably books written about it. But he was

1765
01:36:40,439 --> 01:36:43,680
Speaker 1: from a hunting perspective, and there here's a celebrated conservation

1766
01:36:43,760 --> 01:36:47,120
Speaker 1: figure from a hunting perspective. He's like, if we're going

1767
01:36:47,160 --> 01:36:50,000
Speaker 1: to continue to hunt into the future, if it's gonna

1768
01:36:50,000 --> 01:36:53,719
Speaker 1: be a thing, then we need to put up real

1769
01:36:54,120 --> 01:37:00,760
Speaker 1: serious guardrails, and we're gonna introduce all kinds of stuff, licenses, seasons,

1770
01:37:00,960 --> 01:37:05,559
Speaker 1: ban on commercial sale of wild game, right, and really

1771
01:37:05,600 --> 01:37:08,720
Speaker 1: clamped down or would kiss the whole thing about it.

1772
01:37:10,040 --> 01:37:13,800
Speaker 1: So I don't know, like, and maybe maybe you can

1773
01:37:14,400 --> 01:37:16,800
Speaker 1: tell me that you did. I don't know that if

1774
01:37:16,800 --> 01:37:20,800
Speaker 1: you're accurately kind of like divorcing that that that it

1775
01:37:20,840 --> 01:37:25,360
Speaker 1: perhaps wasn't entirely like a racially motivated thing, that it

1776
01:37:25,400 --> 01:37:27,559
Speaker 1: was coming from a legitimate place. That we have to

1777
01:37:27,560 --> 01:37:30,080
Speaker 1: stop the bleeding. Oh for sure. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not

1778
01:37:30,120 --> 01:37:32,040
Speaker 1: trying to see in the book Eater, I don't do this.

1779
01:37:32,080 --> 01:37:34,600
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to suggest that conservation was completely a

1780
01:37:34,680 --> 01:37:37,880
Speaker 1: racial thing, but rather than in the South, there was

1781
01:37:37,920 --> 01:37:41,519
Speaker 1: this racial dimension, particularly in in in the selling it

1782
01:37:41,600 --> 01:37:45,240
Speaker 1: to the general public. Yeah, you make that and again

1783
01:37:46,080 --> 01:37:51,360
Speaker 1: you make that case clear just through letting people say

1784
01:37:51,640 --> 01:37:54,599
Speaker 1: say their own thing, like you put down here's what's said,

1785
01:37:54,720 --> 01:37:59,599
Speaker 1: here's what said, here's what said, Like you lay that out. Um,

1786
01:37:59,640 --> 01:38:01,479
Speaker 1: the more of Asia was there, but it's just like

1787
01:38:01,520 --> 01:38:04,599
Speaker 1: I look, I'm like, man, but the exact same things

1788
01:38:04,640 --> 01:38:08,040
Speaker 1: were elsewhere, but they just weren't selling it that way. Well,

1789
01:38:08,080 --> 01:38:10,439
Speaker 1: it's interesting. It's interesting you say that though, because and

1790
01:38:10,680 --> 01:38:13,559
Speaker 1: interesting full disclosure. I'll just you know, just to get

1791
01:38:13,560 --> 01:38:15,400
Speaker 1: it down. I don't want this to be a freezer

1792
01:38:15,439 --> 01:38:19,160
Speaker 1: full of fish issue. I am a big fan of

1793
01:38:19,160 --> 01:38:21,680
Speaker 1: a conservation model. I think the conservation system that we

1794
01:38:21,720 --> 01:38:23,880
Speaker 1: developed in that period is one of the great achievements

1795
01:38:23,920 --> 01:38:29,200
Speaker 1: of the American system really is I really believe that. Um,

1796
01:38:29,200 --> 01:38:31,040
Speaker 1: this is side trip, but I mean, like, if I

1797
01:38:31,080 --> 01:38:33,879
Speaker 1: got to choose between a conservation model and a wallet

1798
01:38:33,920 --> 01:38:37,160
Speaker 1: off and nobody can touch at model, conservation models better

1799
01:38:37,240 --> 01:38:40,360
Speaker 1: just in my mind. Um, But what's interesting when you

1800
01:38:40,400 --> 01:38:43,160
Speaker 1: look at how conservation was sold in other parts of

1801
01:38:43,160 --> 01:38:45,840
Speaker 1: the country, there was a racial angle to it, but

1802
01:38:45,920 --> 01:38:49,439
Speaker 1: it wasn't African Americans. You know. I've read articles, you know,

1803
01:38:49,479 --> 01:38:52,240
Speaker 1: complaining about the need for tougher laws in the West,

1804
01:38:52,280 --> 01:38:55,040
Speaker 1: and they're talking about Native Americans that are abusing things

1805
01:38:55,040 --> 01:38:58,000
Speaker 1: and they're the reason we have to pass this. Yeah.

1806
01:38:58,040 --> 01:39:02,280
Speaker 1: In New York, Realy had episode with a mong hunter

1807
01:39:02,360 --> 01:39:07,240
Speaker 1: and I talked to him about, Um, just the conversations

1808
01:39:07,280 --> 01:39:09,000
Speaker 1: I've had with people where it's like, well, you know

1809
01:39:09,000 --> 01:39:12,840
Speaker 1: who kills all the game? It's among guys. Yeah, it was.

1810
01:39:12,920 --> 01:39:15,000
Speaker 1: It was it was European immigrants in New York State

1811
01:39:15,160 --> 01:39:17,400
Speaker 1: right up in the cat Skills. You know. I was like, oh,

1812
01:39:17,479 --> 01:39:19,760
Speaker 1: these immigrants are gone in all the game down and

1813
01:39:20,120 --> 01:39:24,120
Speaker 1: so it seemed like it was just people that were

1814
01:39:24,200 --> 01:39:29,160
Speaker 1: poorer than you. Um, we're by death if they're poorer

1815
01:39:29,160 --> 01:39:36,200
Speaker 1: than you, by definition, they're more likely to be game poachers.

1816
01:39:36,240 --> 01:39:39,680
Speaker 1: Someone probably someone certainly thought you were a poacher, and

1817
01:39:39,720 --> 01:39:42,160
Speaker 1: then you thought the next guy down the line, he

1818
01:39:42,360 --> 01:39:45,439
Speaker 1: was the poacher. It was very class based. Oh yeah,

1819
01:39:45,479 --> 01:39:48,640
Speaker 1: and and that that is what what struck me initially,

1820
01:39:48,960 --> 01:39:50,640
Speaker 1: you know, leaving race out out of the equation for

1821
01:39:50,680 --> 01:39:53,040
Speaker 1: a second. When I first started reading all these sporting

1822
01:39:53,040 --> 01:39:58,679
Speaker 1: publications so intensely, I was amazed at the obvious class

1823
01:39:58,760 --> 01:40:01,639
Speaker 1: dimensions at work here and tension in the individual sporting

1824
01:40:01,640 --> 01:40:04,400
Speaker 1: put even like in Forest and Stream that was written

1825
01:40:04,400 --> 01:40:06,840
Speaker 1: about a lot like who does this thing really serve?

1826
01:40:07,479 --> 01:40:10,439
Speaker 1: If this is this about America and democracy and open access,

1827
01:40:10,520 --> 01:40:13,120
Speaker 1: in which case, hey, rich guy, you shouldn't always get

1828
01:40:13,120 --> 01:40:16,400
Speaker 1: the system you want. And then the elites would say, hey,

1829
01:40:16,439 --> 01:40:18,720
Speaker 1: if you want to preserve this system, you know, for

1830
01:40:18,800 --> 01:40:21,800
Speaker 1: future generations, we've got to start being more strict about this.

1831
01:40:22,280 --> 01:40:24,040
Speaker 1: And some of the people on the on the lower

1832
01:40:24,040 --> 01:40:26,000
Speaker 1: class end of things were like, na, we're just not

1833
01:40:26,040 --> 01:40:28,439
Speaker 1: going to buy that. And it seems like in different

1834
01:40:28,439 --> 01:40:31,519
Speaker 1: parts of the country they needed the little extra nudge

1835
01:40:31,720 --> 01:40:34,200
Speaker 1: from from the boogeyman. Right, if you're afraid of you

1836
01:40:34,280 --> 01:40:36,439
Speaker 1: live in the West, and Native Americans and your big nuisance.

1837
01:40:36,479 --> 01:40:39,320
Speaker 1: They're the problem. The Italian immigrants in New York. It's

1838
01:40:39,520 --> 01:40:42,880
Speaker 1: Hispanic immigrants in Arizona. It's an easy way of, you know,

1839
01:40:42,920 --> 01:40:44,920
Speaker 1: getting a little extra support for what you're trying to

1840
01:40:44,960 --> 01:40:47,639
Speaker 1: see by kind of racializing. That was pretty common, actually

1841
01:40:48,400 --> 01:40:50,680
Speaker 1: identifying the people that just don't get it. Yeah, and

1842
01:40:50,680 --> 01:40:52,840
Speaker 1: it does. It doesn't diminish, you know, the value of

1843
01:40:52,880 --> 01:40:57,000
Speaker 1: the conservation laws, um, but it just shows that, you know,

1844
01:40:57,680 --> 01:41:00,400
Speaker 1: who are the convenient scapegoats that are available. And definitely

1845
01:41:00,439 --> 01:41:04,360
Speaker 1: in the South, the main scapegoat. Uh, it was African Americans,

1846
01:41:04,439 --> 01:41:07,640
Speaker 1: especially because they had they had two argumentative tracks they

1847
01:41:07,640 --> 01:41:09,280
Speaker 1: could take with people that were you know, let's say

1848
01:41:09,280 --> 01:41:11,840
Speaker 1: I'm I'm a poor, poor white and I'm just not

1849
01:41:11,960 --> 01:41:15,320
Speaker 1: buying into this this licensing system. I could say, look,

1850
01:41:15,439 --> 01:41:18,080
Speaker 1: you know, they would say to me intern like, look, one,

1851
01:41:18,800 --> 01:41:21,200
Speaker 1: this is about control. We're trying to keep guns out

1852
01:41:21,200 --> 01:41:23,000
Speaker 1: of the hands of people of color, keep them working

1853
01:41:23,040 --> 01:41:25,479
Speaker 1: for us. And on the other hand, this is about

1854
01:41:25,479 --> 01:41:28,559
Speaker 1: protecting our new tourist economy. We have got to protect

1855
01:41:28,600 --> 01:41:31,120
Speaker 1: this because the region will collapse if we don't preserve this.

1856
01:41:31,840 --> 01:41:34,120
Speaker 1: So it was sort of a kind of a double whammy,

1857
01:41:34,479 --> 01:41:36,519
Speaker 1: and there was a reason to make sure that as

1858
01:41:36,640 --> 01:41:39,760
Speaker 1: much as possible. If African Americans are going to have

1859
01:41:39,760 --> 01:41:43,000
Speaker 1: a big place in the southern sporting field, it's got

1860
01:41:43,000 --> 01:41:46,920
Speaker 1: to be in a subordinate place, working for us, not independent.

1861
01:41:47,000 --> 01:41:50,559
Speaker 1: And if they are hunting and fishing independently, let's set

1862
01:41:50,640 --> 01:41:53,639
Speaker 1: up a system where they are limited to small game,

1863
01:41:54,280 --> 01:41:56,240
Speaker 1: we get rid of methods that they prefer that we

1864
01:41:56,320 --> 01:41:59,120
Speaker 1: don't like, and we control it as much as humanly possible.

1865
01:41:59,120 --> 01:42:00,840
Speaker 1: So again it goes back to that issue of how

1866
01:42:00,920 --> 01:42:04,759
Speaker 1: far away from the white observer are they they're working

1867
01:42:04,800 --> 01:42:07,519
Speaker 1: for me, or they're doing things I approve of, fine,

1868
01:42:08,080 --> 01:42:10,479
Speaker 1: but when they use it to avoid work, or whether

1869
01:42:10,720 --> 01:42:13,200
Speaker 1: you know, doing methods that don't approve of, then it's

1870
01:42:13,200 --> 01:42:14,960
Speaker 1: a problem. You don't want to area where the double

1871
01:42:15,040 --> 01:42:18,800
Speaker 1: standard I think uh came through real clear as you

1872
01:42:18,880 --> 01:42:21,800
Speaker 1: spend a little bit of time talking about. I think

1873
01:42:21,800 --> 01:42:24,600
Speaker 1: it was kind of more in the immediate post warriors

1874
01:42:25,600 --> 01:42:28,840
Speaker 1: do you'd have people who go out the swamps and

1875
01:42:28,840 --> 01:42:32,800
Speaker 1: basically set up camp encampment's families camped just living off

1876
01:42:32,800 --> 01:42:35,680
Speaker 1: the land. Man, you can imagine it'd be easy to

1877
01:42:35,760 --> 01:42:39,360
Speaker 1: romanticize that right. Often a swamp living off the land.

1878
01:42:39,479 --> 01:42:43,400
Speaker 1: But man, folks are not like that. Yeah. That was like, Holy,

1879
01:42:44,200 --> 01:42:47,640
Speaker 1: what does the world come into? Yeah, there were so

1880
01:42:47,640 --> 01:42:51,919
Speaker 1: many interesting uh visuals that came out of that research.

1881
01:42:52,400 --> 01:42:54,639
Speaker 1: You know, you might read about a very elaborate hunt

1882
01:42:54,640 --> 01:42:57,439
Speaker 1: that is essentially you know, a bunch of locals. They're

1883
01:42:57,479 --> 01:43:00,559
Speaker 1: not rich, they're just some Southern guys that like a hunt.

1884
01:43:00,600 --> 01:43:03,680
Speaker 1: So they hire a bunch of laborers and they go

1885
01:43:03,760 --> 01:43:05,519
Speaker 1: off into the woods for a week and they bring

1886
01:43:05,600 --> 01:43:07,880
Speaker 1: tents and you know, they live off the land, and

1887
01:43:07,920 --> 01:43:09,360
Speaker 1: you know, and they you know, they just they just

1888
01:43:09,400 --> 01:43:11,760
Speaker 1: do what they do. But then you hear these descriptions

1889
01:43:11,800 --> 01:43:15,320
Speaker 1: of these like massive hunting parties. I can't think of

1890
01:43:15,320 --> 01:43:18,919
Speaker 1: a guy's name, but the guy was a CEO of DuPont.

1891
01:43:19,600 --> 01:43:21,880
Speaker 1: He bought an island off of South Carolina just for

1892
01:43:21,920 --> 01:43:24,640
Speaker 1: the point the purpose of hunting, and you know, he

1893
01:43:24,640 --> 01:43:27,519
Speaker 1: would bring these giant retinues down there with them and

1894
01:43:27,560 --> 01:43:29,800
Speaker 1: they would head off, you know, head off into the

1895
01:43:29,800 --> 01:43:32,800
Speaker 1: woods and the black laborers would be carrying you know,

1896
01:43:33,520 --> 01:43:37,519
Speaker 1: everything you can know that you don't know that retinue. Yeah,

1897
01:43:37,520 --> 01:43:39,960
Speaker 1: so's it's a fancy word for like the your your

1898
01:43:40,040 --> 01:43:45,639
Speaker 1: your posse. Yeah, you're you're your entourage. That's the retinue.

1899
01:43:45,720 --> 01:43:47,920
Speaker 1: They would have called it a retinue because that was

1900
01:43:48,000 --> 01:43:50,599
Speaker 1: the fancy makes me sound like an aristocratic term they

1901
01:43:50,600 --> 01:43:52,720
Speaker 1: wanted to use. The more guys that are with me,

1902
01:43:52,800 --> 01:43:55,639
Speaker 1: the more people carrying my stuff, the more my hunting

1903
01:43:55,680 --> 01:43:59,160
Speaker 1: camp looks like my house, the more that means you know,

1904
01:43:59,200 --> 01:44:02,840
Speaker 1: I've made it. So it's sort of that, you know,

1905
01:44:02,880 --> 01:44:05,240
Speaker 1: sett it yourself up as an aristocrat kind of thing

1906
01:44:05,280 --> 01:44:10,120
Speaker 1: that visitors were so drawn to back then. Um, what

1907
01:44:10,320 --> 01:44:12,960
Speaker 1: what are there? I mean, there's a ton of miss

1908
01:44:13,000 --> 01:44:17,519
Speaker 1: because it's a big book, But are there where you're

1909
01:44:17,520 --> 01:44:19,080
Speaker 1: from where you're sitting right now? Are there questions you

1910
01:44:19,080 --> 01:44:22,960
Speaker 1: wish I'd ask you to explain various aspects of this book? Well, yeah,

1911
01:44:23,040 --> 01:44:24,680
Speaker 1: I think I think one that there's a couple of

1912
01:44:24,680 --> 01:44:26,439
Speaker 1: things that that I think would be good to talk about.

1913
01:44:26,560 --> 01:44:31,720
Speaker 1: So one is, um, what was you know, the pot Why?

1914
01:44:31,800 --> 01:44:33,920
Speaker 1: What I didn't mention yet was the was the positives? Right,

1915
01:44:33,960 --> 01:44:37,720
Speaker 1: So we're talking about, you know, the concerns that landowners

1916
01:44:37,760 --> 01:44:39,960
Speaker 1: had or the conservation has had, or you know, white

1917
01:44:39,960 --> 01:44:41,960
Speaker 1: Southerners in general had, and why they wanted to kind

1918
01:44:41,960 --> 01:44:44,960
Speaker 1: of restrict these practices. But on the other side of

1919
01:44:44,960 --> 01:44:49,200
Speaker 1: the equation is um the benefit, right, So it isn't

1920
01:44:49,240 --> 01:44:53,400
Speaker 1: like it's just I'm forced to work mission because you

1921
01:44:53,400 --> 01:44:56,280
Speaker 1: have some amazing stories of people getting established in business

1922
01:44:56,320 --> 01:44:59,719
Speaker 1: and stuff, and yeah, there's a there's a big benefit.

1923
01:44:59,840 --> 01:45:03,240
Speaker 1: So um. For one thing, it's it's a rare thing

1924
01:45:03,400 --> 01:45:06,120
Speaker 1: during the Jim Crow period for a person of color

1925
01:45:06,200 --> 01:45:09,519
Speaker 1: to have sort of a public way to demonstrate I'm

1926
01:45:09,560 --> 01:45:11,640
Speaker 1: better at something than a white person. And that was

1927
01:45:11,680 --> 01:45:14,280
Speaker 1: a no, no, can you tell people specifically what Jim

1928
01:45:14,280 --> 01:45:16,280
Speaker 1: Crow means? Sure? So Jim Crow is sort of the

1929
01:45:16,280 --> 01:45:20,080
Speaker 1: shorthand for segregation. Uh, these sort of both formal and

1930
01:45:20,160 --> 01:45:23,400
Speaker 1: informal laws and practices that popped up starting in the

1931
01:45:23,439 --> 01:45:27,640
Speaker 1: eighteen nineties that sort of governed black and white social interactions.

1932
01:45:27,640 --> 01:45:29,320
Speaker 1: And it was if you don't know much about the

1933
01:45:29,360 --> 01:45:32,559
Speaker 1: Jim Crow system, it's it's pretty mind blowing. Um. You know,

1934
01:45:32,760 --> 01:45:35,840
Speaker 1: you know the big picture stuff, you know, like you know, uh,

1935
01:45:35,880 --> 01:45:39,160
Speaker 1: you know, whites only water fountains and things like that

1936
01:45:39,160 --> 01:45:41,040
Speaker 1: that we think of most commonly. But then you know

1937
01:45:41,280 --> 01:45:44,320
Speaker 1: chain gangs and you know, lots and lots of strange

1938
01:45:44,439 --> 01:45:47,680
Speaker 1: social rules. You know, black person can't work at a

1939
01:45:47,680 --> 01:45:49,880
Speaker 1: shoe store that caters to white customers, because you don't

1940
01:45:49,920 --> 01:45:53,640
Speaker 1: want black people to work with white people's feet. Um,

1941
01:45:53,680 --> 01:45:58,200
Speaker 1: you know black barbers, you know generally uh would uh

1942
01:45:58,360 --> 01:46:01,760
Speaker 1: would have white customers, but the reverse usually wouldn't be true.

1943
01:46:02,040 --> 01:46:03,479
Speaker 1: Usually you have to have good to old black barber

1944
01:46:03,479 --> 01:46:06,640
Speaker 1: if if you were a black person. Yeah, and all

1945
01:46:06,680 --> 01:46:09,200
Speaker 1: that stuff segregated. So Jim Crow was basically just a

1946
01:46:09,240 --> 01:46:11,600
Speaker 1: way of making sure that everybody was was kept in

1947
01:46:11,640 --> 01:46:14,720
Speaker 1: their proper place. Was that a guy's name Jim Crow

1948
01:46:14,920 --> 01:46:18,439
Speaker 1: was was a minstrel performers. His name was Charles. His

1949
01:46:18,560 --> 01:46:21,400
Speaker 1: name Daddy Rice was that might be Charles Daddy ricen't remember.

1950
01:46:21,520 --> 01:46:24,920
Speaker 1: Daddy Rice was a famous minstrel performer in the twenties

1951
01:46:24,920 --> 01:46:28,280
Speaker 1: and eighteen thirties, and he became world famous, traveled the

1952
01:46:28,320 --> 01:46:33,360
Speaker 1: world by blacking his face in his hands, putting on rags,

1953
01:46:33,560 --> 01:46:36,720
Speaker 1: and then performing in ways that whites would have recognized

1954
01:46:36,760 --> 01:46:40,639
Speaker 1: as stereotypically slave. So he's a white guy, Yeah, white

1955
01:46:40,640 --> 01:46:46,800
Speaker 1: guy performing in hand. Yeah. That was the character's name,

1956
01:46:46,840 --> 01:46:50,000
Speaker 1: Jim Crow. And you know there's books published about this character,

1957
01:46:50,120 --> 01:46:53,400
Speaker 1: Jim Crow. It becomes this hugely popular thing, and then

1958
01:46:54,040 --> 01:46:58,200
Speaker 1: the interesting thing is that that's yes, somehow that I'm

1959
01:46:58,240 --> 01:46:59,920
Speaker 1: kind of like, I don't know, I was like Paul

1960
01:47:00,000 --> 01:47:03,880
Speaker 1: Fitition politicians from the time. You know, the basic idea is, um,

1961
01:47:03,920 --> 01:47:07,040
Speaker 1: you know, these this Jim Crow character is kind of

1962
01:47:07,040 --> 01:47:12,680
Speaker 1: based on the idea that people of color are childlike, stupid, uncivilized.

1963
01:47:12,720 --> 01:47:14,880
Speaker 1: I mean, it's very negative, very racist. You know that

1964
01:47:14,960 --> 01:47:18,920
Speaker 1: this this character and it fits what white audiences wanted

1965
01:47:18,920 --> 01:47:22,040
Speaker 1: to believe about people of color. Uh So it's kind

1966
01:47:22,040 --> 01:47:26,040
Speaker 1: of a character designed to show, uh, you know, this

1967
01:47:26,120 --> 01:47:29,200
Speaker 1: is what what we're dealing with here, folks. It sort

1968
01:47:29,200 --> 01:47:31,640
Speaker 1: of became an easy shorthand in the eight nineties. Well

1969
01:47:31,680 --> 01:47:34,880
Speaker 1: these laws designed to keep black people where they belong,

1970
01:47:35,160 --> 01:47:37,479
Speaker 1: let's call him Jim Crow laws. So that's sort of

1971
01:47:37,640 --> 01:47:41,240
Speaker 1: organically how it evolved. Yeah, and then you were going

1972
01:47:41,240 --> 01:47:44,719
Speaker 1: to get into and there was a handful of things

1973
01:47:44,720 --> 01:47:49,599
Speaker 1: you have in there of people that um, maybe established

1974
01:47:49,600 --> 01:47:53,479
Speaker 1: a fishing business, and then it became out of that

1975
01:47:53,640 --> 01:47:57,280
Speaker 1: like owned multiple vessels, bought land, established businesses, like people

1976
01:47:57,280 --> 01:48:00,519
Speaker 1: who had like real success stories. Yeah, there's great that

1977
01:48:00,640 --> 01:48:03,120
Speaker 1: came out of hunting and fishing that went on to

1978
01:48:03,560 --> 01:48:07,160
Speaker 1: be have generational impact. Yeah. I'll take about whole Collier

1979
01:48:07,200 --> 01:48:09,519
Speaker 1: in a minute. That that's my my my favorite individual

1980
01:48:09,560 --> 01:48:12,479
Speaker 1: person from the book, but my individual favorite story. It's

1981
01:48:12,479 --> 01:48:15,280
Speaker 1: not very long, but I just love this one. And

1982
01:48:15,280 --> 01:48:19,440
Speaker 1: this is the kind of freedom you could have with um,

1983
01:48:19,479 --> 01:48:22,599
Speaker 1: the kind of weird relationships that emerged in the post

1984
01:48:22,640 --> 01:48:25,840
Speaker 1: emancipation period, right Like, on the one hand, you know

1985
01:48:26,720 --> 01:48:31,640
Speaker 1: that your guides, your laborers are really amazing at this,

1986
01:48:32,400 --> 01:48:34,840
Speaker 1: but acknowledging that it's going to sort of threaten the

1987
01:48:34,840 --> 01:48:37,599
Speaker 1: white on top sort of white supremacy model that we

1988
01:48:37,640 --> 01:48:40,160
Speaker 1: have by then in the South. So there's this great

1989
01:48:40,160 --> 01:48:43,360
Speaker 1: story it came across where a guy from uh I

1990
01:48:43,360 --> 01:48:47,599
Speaker 1: think he's from Philadelphia, is out on a duck hunter,

1991
01:48:47,680 --> 01:48:50,439
Speaker 1: a quail hunt whatever it was, with with one black

1992
01:48:50,439 --> 01:48:56,160
Speaker 1: guide and they're they're, you know, scaring up birds and birds.

1993
01:48:56,360 --> 01:49:01,439
Speaker 1: You know, he's scared up alright, birds flushed, thank you?

1994
01:49:01,960 --> 01:49:04,479
Speaker 1: And uh, I know words like retinue, not words like flushed.

1995
01:49:04,760 --> 01:49:08,160
Speaker 1: Uh So birds are scared up. White guy jumps up,

1996
01:49:08,400 --> 01:49:12,559
Speaker 1: takes a shot, misses, the guide stands up, shoots it

1997
01:49:12,600 --> 01:49:15,920
Speaker 1: and says, good shot. They scare up another bird. The

1998
01:49:15,920 --> 01:49:19,080
Speaker 1: white guy misses. The guy's a great shot, sir. And

1999
01:49:19,120 --> 01:49:20,920
Speaker 1: then that went on. That went on the whole day,

2000
01:49:21,400 --> 01:49:25,719
Speaker 1: and then they're walking home and uh, the the guy

2001
01:49:25,920 --> 01:49:29,280
Speaker 1: was was talking about how how piste off this white

2002
01:49:29,280 --> 01:49:31,479
Speaker 1: guy was walking in front of him the whole time,

2003
01:49:31,600 --> 01:49:33,439
Speaker 1: knowing that he didn't do a very good job with

2004
01:49:33,479 --> 01:49:37,240
Speaker 1: those birds, and only imagining how pleased the guide must

2005
01:49:37,240 --> 01:49:39,200
Speaker 1: have been, thinking like, yeah, we both know that I'm

2006
01:49:39,240 --> 01:49:40,960
Speaker 1: better at this than you. But I can play the

2007
01:49:40,960 --> 01:49:43,120
Speaker 1: game if I have to. So I really like that

2008
01:49:43,160 --> 01:49:45,640
Speaker 1: one example because it was just a nice little leg

2009
01:49:45,800 --> 01:49:47,400
Speaker 1: I can. I can dig you a little bit in

2010
01:49:47,439 --> 01:49:50,160
Speaker 1: the way that I couldn't before, you know. But the

2011
01:49:50,200 --> 01:49:51,920
Speaker 1: one that the one that stands out, and it's just

2012
01:49:51,960 --> 01:49:53,760
Speaker 1: it's just one of the great stories of all time.

2013
01:49:54,120 --> 01:49:55,720
Speaker 1: And I'm not the first person to talk about Whole

2014
01:49:55,720 --> 01:49:57,479
Speaker 1: call Here. There's been a book written about him, and

2015
01:49:57,520 --> 01:50:01,320
Speaker 1: some children's books actually, but Whole call Here is I think,

2016
01:50:01,920 --> 01:50:04,519
Speaker 1: what I would say, the most famous sportsman in the South,

2017
01:50:05,160 --> 01:50:07,840
Speaker 1: probably of all time, unless he counts someone like Daniel

2018
01:50:07,840 --> 01:50:09,719
Speaker 1: Boone or you know some of those, some of those folks.

2019
01:50:10,240 --> 01:50:13,440
Speaker 1: But um, the whole Collier was a slave in Mississippi

2020
01:50:13,760 --> 01:50:17,960
Speaker 1: and his stories just absolutely incredible. Um before before he

2021
01:50:18,040 --> 01:50:20,800
Speaker 1: was he was a famous hunting guide. Um, he was

2022
01:50:20,840 --> 01:50:24,679
Speaker 1: a slave in Mississippi, and his master was nicknamed Colonel

2023
01:50:24,840 --> 01:50:28,120
Speaker 1: Howell Hines. And when the Hines family, you know, goes

2024
01:50:28,160 --> 01:50:30,639
Speaker 1: off to war, when the Civil War starts, they took

2025
01:50:30,760 --> 01:50:34,040
Speaker 1: whole collier with him as a servant. And he wound

2026
01:50:34,120 --> 01:50:37,519
Speaker 1: up working as a scout for whatever army outfit that

2027
01:50:37,560 --> 01:50:40,479
Speaker 1: his that his that his master belonged to, scouting against

2028
01:50:40,479 --> 01:50:44,000
Speaker 1: the Northern Army, against the Northern Army. And he yeah,

2029
01:50:44,000 --> 01:50:46,800
Speaker 1: and he is officially recognized by the Daughters of the

2030
01:50:46,800 --> 01:50:51,080
Speaker 1: Confederacy as a Confederate veteran. I mean, it's it's really interesting.

2031
01:50:51,320 --> 01:50:56,000
Speaker 1: And he continued after they and and that's the whole

2032
01:50:56,080 --> 01:50:57,880
Speaker 1: when you take a whole collier above and beyond the

2033
01:50:57,920 --> 01:51:01,000
Speaker 1: call of duty, he was he was loyal servant, and

2034
01:51:01,000 --> 01:51:03,360
Speaker 1: then he was a loyal soldier. And then when the

2035
01:51:03,400 --> 01:51:06,400
Speaker 1: war ended, he went to work on the Hines plantation

2036
01:51:06,439 --> 01:51:09,880
Speaker 1: as a sporting guide and was was so good that

2037
01:51:09,880 --> 01:51:12,280
Speaker 1: he's one of these ridiculous figures that you hear about

2038
01:51:12,280 --> 01:51:15,960
Speaker 1: his sporting uh prowess, and you think, really, did you

2039
01:51:16,040 --> 01:51:19,120
Speaker 1: really kill five hundred bears? That seems like a lot,

2040
01:51:19,280 --> 01:51:22,200
Speaker 1: you know, So he they're all these legends about him,

2041
01:51:22,280 --> 01:51:25,400
Speaker 1: and the reason he becomes so well known is because

2042
01:51:25,479 --> 01:51:28,559
Speaker 1: when Um the Roosevelt Hunts, as they were known, Roosevelt

2043
01:51:28,640 --> 01:51:31,960
Speaker 1: had these huge, two huge hunting excursions in the South

2044
01:51:32,040 --> 01:51:34,639
Speaker 1: and almost like nineteen o three, almost like nineteen o seven,

2045
01:51:35,400 --> 01:51:38,080
Speaker 1: when he contacted uh, some of his buddies down in

2046
01:51:38,120 --> 01:51:39,559
Speaker 1: the South, Hey, I want to do a really big,

2047
01:51:39,560 --> 01:51:43,679
Speaker 1: elaborate hunt. Put it together for me. They did what

2048
01:51:43,680 --> 01:51:45,960
Speaker 1: what we've talked about before. They got some guys that

2049
01:51:46,040 --> 01:51:47,920
Speaker 1: knew the best places to go, and they said, Okay,

2050
01:51:47,960 --> 01:51:50,240
Speaker 1: who's going to assemble the army of African Americans that

2051
01:51:50,280 --> 01:51:52,880
Speaker 1: we need to provide the setting the president needs and

2052
01:51:52,920 --> 01:51:55,640
Speaker 1: they tapped whole Callier to head the hunt. So he

2053
01:51:55,720 --> 01:51:57,439
Speaker 1: was he was the guy in charge of both of

2054
01:51:57,479 --> 01:52:00,680
Speaker 1: those Roosevelt hunts, and that the space ciphic story that

2055
01:52:00,720 --> 01:52:04,920
Speaker 1: makes him so famous is um apparently for four or

2056
01:52:04,960 --> 01:52:07,839
Speaker 1: five days this was one hunt was in the Louisian

2057
01:52:07,920 --> 01:52:09,960
Speaker 1: Cane Brakes and one was in the Yazoo Delta. I

2058
01:52:09,960 --> 01:52:13,000
Speaker 1: can't recall which one was which, but the first of

2059
01:52:13,040 --> 01:52:15,640
Speaker 1: the two, apparently whole Collier. They didn't have a lot

2060
01:52:15,680 --> 01:52:17,760
Speaker 1: of luck finding the bear because Roosevelt had dreamed of

2061
01:52:17,760 --> 01:52:21,080
Speaker 1: a Southern black bear forever, he said. So Collier apparently

2062
01:52:21,120 --> 01:52:23,280
Speaker 1: had gone off to do some scouting to see if

2063
01:52:23,320 --> 01:52:27,920
Speaker 1: they could switch locations. While he was gone, apparently some

2064
01:52:28,000 --> 01:52:31,599
Speaker 1: of the other guys had captured a black bear, which

2065
01:52:31,640 --> 01:52:34,479
Speaker 1: was weirdly common back then because people would capture bears

2066
01:52:34,479 --> 01:52:36,320
Speaker 1: and then they would use it for bear baiting, the

2067
01:52:36,320 --> 01:52:40,360
Speaker 1: grossest sport ever. We just get sick dogs on a

2068
01:52:40,400 --> 01:52:42,200
Speaker 1: bear and then bet on how many dogs it would take,

2069
01:52:42,240 --> 01:52:44,800
Speaker 1: you know, to kill it. Um. So they captured this

2070
01:52:44,840 --> 01:52:47,880
Speaker 1: black bear so Roosevelt could kill it, and Whole Collier

2071
01:52:47,960 --> 01:52:49,760
Speaker 1: got back to camp and he said, whoa you you

2072
01:52:49,800 --> 01:52:51,960
Speaker 1: can't this is a chained up animal. You can't shoot this.

2073
01:52:51,960 --> 01:52:55,320
Speaker 1: It's not sporting. And Roosevelt was, yeah, that's that's that's

2074
01:52:55,320 --> 01:52:57,120
Speaker 1: a great idea. That's not sporting. I'm not going to

2075
01:52:57,200 --> 01:53:00,000
Speaker 1: do it. So Rosebolt ordered that they released the Teddy bear,

2076
01:53:00,000 --> 01:53:02,560
Speaker 1: and that's the Teddy Bear incident. So it was it

2077
01:53:02,600 --> 01:53:05,479
Speaker 1: was Whole Collier that apparently told Roosevelt that he shouldn't

2078
01:53:05,520 --> 01:53:09,040
Speaker 1: kill the bear. So the cartoon of Teddy's Bear, uh

2079
01:53:09,160 --> 01:53:12,040
Speaker 1: comes from from Whole Collier that and then he sent

2080
01:53:12,160 --> 01:53:14,960
Speaker 1: he sent Collier some kind of heard at times, but

2081
01:53:15,000 --> 01:53:17,960
Speaker 1: I never knew that the guy that involved it was

2082
01:53:17,960 --> 01:53:20,840
Speaker 1: was I had that story. Uh well, yeah, you know,

2083
01:53:20,880 --> 01:53:23,000
Speaker 1: I never knew any I never knew anybody involved him

2084
01:53:23,000 --> 01:53:25,800
Speaker 1: besides Roosevelt. Right, yeah, well, you know, I guess what

2085
01:53:26,000 --> 01:53:28,080
Speaker 1: in the future if you come across kind of stories

2086
01:53:28,120 --> 01:53:32,479
Speaker 1: from from this time period, Um, you know, how often

2087
01:53:32,479 --> 01:53:35,479
Speaker 1: did they really go into discussions of the guys, whether

2088
01:53:35,520 --> 01:53:37,840
Speaker 1: they're white or black? Right? Usually just the guys, we're

2089
01:53:37,920 --> 01:53:40,240
Speaker 1: the ones that we talk about. And then you're not

2090
01:53:40,280 --> 01:53:42,760
Speaker 1: going to talk about your labors that much, especially if

2091
01:53:42,800 --> 01:53:45,439
Speaker 1: if there are people of color and um. In the

2092
01:53:45,479 --> 01:53:49,120
Speaker 1: aftermath of this hunt, Roosevelt was so grateful that he

2093
01:53:49,160 --> 01:53:51,000
Speaker 1: fired because later in the honey got his black Bear,

2094
01:53:51,360 --> 01:53:54,320
Speaker 1: and he was so grateful that he sent whole Collier

2095
01:53:54,640 --> 01:53:56,760
Speaker 1: a I can't remember the exact model, but I got

2096
01:53:56,760 --> 01:53:59,680
Speaker 1: a brand new Winchester rifle and that Collier used that

2097
01:53:59,760 --> 01:54:01,640
Speaker 1: for the rest of his life because it was the

2098
01:54:01,760 --> 01:54:06,000
Speaker 1: rifle the Roosevelt. It's probably that way. Wouldn't be surprised. Yeah,

2099
01:54:06,040 --> 01:54:12,880
Speaker 1: that sounds about right. It was like, that's Roosevelt's rifle Winchester.

2100
01:54:14,840 --> 01:54:18,160
Speaker 1: Where uh, if I if I'm not mistaken. I think

2101
01:54:18,160 --> 01:54:19,759
Speaker 1: it's in I think it's in a in a historical

2102
01:54:19,760 --> 01:54:22,559
Speaker 1: society somewhere in Mississippi. I thought I may have read

2103
01:54:22,560 --> 01:54:24,400
Speaker 1: somewhere that they have that I like to fire a

2104
01:54:24,400 --> 01:54:26,920
Speaker 1: couple of cracks of that gun man. But it's it's

2105
01:54:26,920 --> 01:54:28,800
Speaker 1: pretty amazing, and it brought him to some to some

2106
01:54:28,880 --> 01:54:34,280
Speaker 1: national prominence. And when, uh, there was a little bit

2107
01:54:34,320 --> 01:54:38,560
Speaker 1: of a blowback on Roosevelt. He was publicly praising this

2108
01:54:38,600 --> 01:54:41,840
Speaker 1: guy he sent him this rifle, uh, and some people

2109
01:54:41,880 --> 01:54:44,600
Speaker 1: were like, what's the president doing hanging out with this

2110
01:54:44,680 --> 01:54:47,040
Speaker 1: black guy? What? What? This isn't right? A lot of

2111
01:54:47,040 --> 01:54:49,200
Speaker 1: people in the South were kind of angry about this,

2112
01:54:49,280 --> 01:54:51,520
Speaker 1: and it just didn't visually match what they thought the

2113
01:54:51,560 --> 01:54:55,200
Speaker 1: president United States should be doing. And editorials appeared in

2114
01:54:55,440 --> 01:54:57,959
Speaker 1: southern newspapers after that and they were like, look, you understand,

2115
01:54:58,360 --> 01:55:00,760
Speaker 1: this guy was the best slave ever. This guy was

2116
01:55:00,800 --> 01:55:04,520
Speaker 1: a soldier for us. He's the best, He's the perfect servant.

2117
01:55:05,000 --> 01:55:07,320
Speaker 1: If anybody deserved to be talked about by the president,

2118
01:55:07,400 --> 01:55:11,160
Speaker 1: it's whole Collier. So the question that got me thinking was, Okay,

2119
01:55:11,320 --> 01:55:15,000
Speaker 1: did Roosevelt ever weigh in on it anymore? Basically, he

2120
01:55:15,040 --> 01:55:16,960
Speaker 1: would just kind of he didn't. I don't think rose

2121
01:55:17,160 --> 01:55:18,760
Speaker 1: he were palsering and he does. He basically would just

2122
01:55:18,760 --> 01:55:20,120
Speaker 1: say like, look, this is just one of the best

2123
01:55:20,120 --> 01:55:23,800
Speaker 1: sports when I ever saw. But he he's like engaged

2124
01:55:23,800 --> 01:55:26,560
Speaker 1: in that conversation. That just the one line here from

2125
01:55:26,560 --> 01:55:30,480
Speaker 1: Wikipedia about how badass he was. He killed more than

2126
01:55:30,560 --> 01:55:34,960
Speaker 1: three thousand bears during his lifetime, more than those this

2127
01:55:35,000 --> 01:55:39,760
Speaker 1: is the real hum more than those taken by Davy

2128
01:55:39,800 --> 01:55:46,400
Speaker 1: Crockett and Daniel Boone combined. So his fake his fake

2129
01:55:46,520 --> 01:55:52,760
Speaker 1: number was better than Boone and Crockett, his fake number Wickuldee.

2130
01:55:52,760 --> 01:55:56,040
Speaker 1: It does have things wrong sometimes, but you know, for me,

2131
01:55:56,200 --> 01:56:00,960
Speaker 1: it's it's the extraordinary question is about whole Collier undeniably

2132
01:56:01,120 --> 01:56:03,480
Speaker 1: an amazing sportsman, even if his numbers are you know,

2133
01:56:03,520 --> 01:56:09,880
Speaker 1: wildly exaggerated, prominent, famous for his day, fairly wealthy, fairly

2134
01:56:09,880 --> 01:56:12,240
Speaker 1: well known. There's not a whole lot of African Americans

2135
01:56:12,240 --> 01:56:15,040
Speaker 1: sportsman who becomes celebrities in that time period. He did it.

2136
01:56:15,360 --> 01:56:17,400
Speaker 1: So it's a great thing, and what a great way

2137
01:56:17,440 --> 01:56:19,760
Speaker 1: for him to uh support his family and you know,

2138
01:56:19,800 --> 01:56:21,920
Speaker 1: and carve out a niche. But then I also wondered, like,

2139
01:56:22,560 --> 01:56:24,680
Speaker 1: but what's the cost of that you know, if your

2140
01:56:24,720 --> 01:56:27,080
Speaker 1: whole collier, you basically have to position yourself as the

2141
01:56:27,120 --> 01:56:32,240
Speaker 1: quintessential servant. And for a lot of white Southerners, you know,

2142
01:56:32,880 --> 01:56:34,640
Speaker 1: you know, they would look at that relationship and they

2143
01:56:34,640 --> 01:56:36,480
Speaker 1: would see a whole collier and they would see see

2144
01:56:36,520 --> 01:56:39,520
Speaker 1: that that's alive, and well, the old master slave thing,

2145
01:56:39,560 --> 01:56:41,280
Speaker 1: it's alive, and well it's like the way it should be.

2146
01:56:41,760 --> 01:56:43,600
Speaker 1: So for a lot of Southerners, they really looked at

2147
01:56:43,600 --> 01:56:46,360
Speaker 1: the sporting field, you know, not just the way of

2148
01:56:46,400 --> 01:56:49,960
Speaker 1: preserving the sporting tradition, but to preserve the racial tradition.

2149
01:56:50,400 --> 01:56:53,480
Speaker 1: You know, where else can you find that pure I'm

2150
01:56:53,520 --> 01:56:56,440
Speaker 1: always going to have people of color around me serving me.

2151
01:56:56,840 --> 01:56:59,200
Speaker 1: Now that emancipation is here, we're still going to find

2152
01:56:59,240 --> 01:57:01,160
Speaker 1: it in the sporting field. So it was a way

2153
01:57:01,160 --> 01:57:04,000
Speaker 1: of kind of resurrecting that old South and keeping it alive.

2154
01:57:04,480 --> 01:57:07,120
Speaker 1: So on the one hand, if if you're that that

2155
01:57:07,200 --> 01:57:09,960
Speaker 1: sporting guy who can make fun of of of the

2156
01:57:09,960 --> 01:57:12,680
Speaker 1: white guy, yeah that's a good thing, and I'm sure

2157
01:57:12,720 --> 01:57:16,480
Speaker 1: that's pretty satisfying. But isn't it interesting that basically you

2158
01:57:16,480 --> 01:57:18,840
Speaker 1: you you find a niche for yourself in an occupation

2159
01:57:18,920 --> 01:57:23,200
Speaker 1: that demands subservience and that must have been tough. That

2160
01:57:23,280 --> 01:57:25,280
Speaker 1: must have been a real double edged sword. Now that

2161
01:57:25,360 --> 01:57:28,760
Speaker 1: Yan he's brought Boone into it, did you read about

2162
01:57:28,840 --> 01:57:35,280
Speaker 1: or just consider writing about Boone's relationship with his old slave,

2163
01:57:36,200 --> 01:57:38,280
Speaker 1: like when Boo got old and he was going blind.

2164
01:57:39,760 --> 01:57:43,760
Speaker 1: He I don't want to hate to use them. I

2165
01:57:43,800 --> 01:57:47,040
Speaker 1: don't know. They were like people around them describe them

2166
01:57:47,040 --> 01:57:49,640
Speaker 1: as best friends. However true that is. But it's like

2167
01:57:49,680 --> 01:57:53,839
Speaker 1: Boone out a slave that was his hunting people described

2168
01:57:53,840 --> 01:57:55,600
Speaker 1: that that was his hunting buddy, that was his hunting partner,

2169
01:57:55,720 --> 01:57:58,240
Speaker 1: Like the two of them would go on big canoe

2170
01:57:58,280 --> 01:58:01,960
Speaker 1: based hunting trips. Did you ever spend any time on

2171
01:58:02,120 --> 01:58:04,440
Speaker 1: like what that what the hell that relationship was? I haven't.

2172
01:58:04,440 --> 01:58:06,920
Speaker 1: I haven't jumped into into that much. It's an interesting topic, though,

2173
01:58:06,960 --> 01:58:09,240
Speaker 1: I should check that out. Yeah, Boone would hunt in

2174
01:58:09,280 --> 01:58:12,880
Speaker 1: his later years, Boone would like that's who he hung

2175
01:58:12,880 --> 01:58:16,680
Speaker 1: out with. I mean he could have hung out with Virtue.

2176
01:58:16,720 --> 01:58:19,000
Speaker 1: I mean he was famous in his time. That's who

2177
01:58:19,000 --> 01:58:21,280
Speaker 1: we hung with. Yeah, I mean go on these trips,

2178
01:58:21,320 --> 01:58:26,200
Speaker 1: you know, And I could be totally misremembering this. Didn't

2179
01:58:26,200 --> 01:58:29,480
Speaker 1: he take that guy with him to the Alamo? Boone

2180
01:58:29,600 --> 01:58:31,680
Speaker 1: going to the Alamo. Sorry, I thought you mentioned Crockett.

2181
01:58:31,680 --> 01:58:34,640
Speaker 1: I'm sorry, because Croc had brought a bunch of pals

2182
01:58:34,640 --> 01:58:39,560
Speaker 1: of his that were hunting buddies. They didn't stay. Yeah,

2183
01:58:39,560 --> 01:58:41,480
Speaker 1: but those two get those who get tangled up a lot.

2184
01:58:41,520 --> 01:58:45,360
Speaker 1: But yeah, he died, and he died in Missouri. Um.

2185
01:58:45,800 --> 01:58:48,640
Speaker 1: And one more question for you. Have you ever spent

2186
01:58:48,720 --> 01:58:51,520
Speaker 1: time reading about the slave that Lewis and Clark brought

2187
01:58:51,560 --> 01:58:54,000
Speaker 1: with him. No, I've not done that either, but I

2188
01:58:54,000 --> 01:58:56,320
Speaker 1: would like to. It's you know, it's it's it's a

2189
01:58:56,360 --> 01:58:59,480
Speaker 1: fascinating freedom afterwards. Yeah, so they got like they got

2190
01:58:59,480 --> 01:59:01,680
Speaker 1: like whatever our guys on payroll, they got the ones,

2191
01:59:01,800 --> 01:59:04,879
Speaker 1: they got like one dude who's not just weird. It's

2192
01:59:04,920 --> 01:59:06,840
Speaker 1: one of the things that's that's so tough to to

2193
01:59:06,960 --> 01:59:10,240
Speaker 1: tease out in these stories. You know, like you mentioned,

2194
01:59:10,280 --> 01:59:12,960
Speaker 1: you mentioned Boone and his slave, and I don't know

2195
01:59:13,000 --> 01:59:15,880
Speaker 1: this story, but what I what I can probably say

2196
01:59:15,920 --> 01:59:18,560
Speaker 1: with some certainty is that we've based our our view

2197
01:59:18,600 --> 01:59:22,080
Speaker 1: of that relationship pretty much from white sources, because that's

2198
01:59:22,080 --> 01:59:24,760
Speaker 1: probably all we have. So what's interesting about when you

2199
01:59:24,760 --> 01:59:27,240
Speaker 1: when you read about these these uh you know, these

2200
01:59:27,280 --> 01:59:31,360
Speaker 1: master servant relationships in the post war sporting field, you

2201
01:59:31,480 --> 01:59:34,840
Speaker 1: never get or rarely get the laborer's perspective. It's almost

2202
01:59:34,880 --> 01:59:37,960
Speaker 1: always the white guys. Know what that guys? Yeah, So

2203
01:59:38,120 --> 01:59:42,760
Speaker 1: like how he comprehended his relationship with this like very

2204
01:59:43,280 --> 01:59:46,440
Speaker 1: very famous person. Yeah, like what is what is? Uh?

2205
01:59:46,560 --> 01:59:49,240
Speaker 1: What does that guy say when he walks away? Right? If?

2206
01:59:49,360 --> 01:59:52,240
Speaker 1: Oh they're they're best friends? There, what a great relationship.

2207
01:59:52,400 --> 01:59:54,880
Speaker 1: Maybe he saw a little differently, you know, don't know

2208
01:59:55,000 --> 01:59:58,560
Speaker 1: the same thing with York, the Lewis and Clark slave. Um,

2209
01:59:58,840 --> 02:00:02,000
Speaker 1: and maybe with him, I mean know by that in

2210
02:00:02,040 --> 02:00:07,040
Speaker 1: that circle, you were in a world where you know,

2211
02:00:07,280 --> 02:00:11,160
Speaker 1: they were celebrated. I haven't read into it. Maybe there

2212
02:00:11,160 --> 02:00:13,720
Speaker 1: are accounts from him, you know, Lewis and Clark would

2213
02:00:13,720 --> 02:00:17,960
Speaker 1: point out that, Um, the Native Americans definitely recognized him

2214
02:00:18,000 --> 02:00:23,600
Speaker 1: as different, you know, and uh many were quite attracted

2215
02:00:23,600 --> 02:00:28,000
Speaker 1: to him. Didn't like the white group but like that skin,

2216
02:00:28,560 --> 02:00:31,000
Speaker 1: you know, I would single him out. But yeah, and

2217
02:00:31,000 --> 02:00:34,240
Speaker 1: then they emancipated him afterwards. But no, to hear his

2218
02:00:34,360 --> 02:00:37,720
Speaker 1: take on I mean, is his take on it? Um,

2219
02:00:37,840 --> 02:00:40,200
Speaker 1: would it have been, Yeah, it was cool that you

2220
02:00:40,240 --> 02:00:41,760
Speaker 1: know they freed me. It would just take a ben

2221
02:00:41,840 --> 02:00:44,600
Speaker 1: on it, come on, man, like I didn't have the

2222
02:00:45,920 --> 02:00:49,520
Speaker 1: No one asked me to sign up, and and and

2223
02:00:49,560 --> 02:00:52,240
Speaker 1: there's the single biggest challenge of studying a topic like

2224
02:00:52,280 --> 02:00:56,160
Speaker 1: this its sources. You know, So what do people of

2225
02:00:56,160 --> 02:00:59,560
Speaker 1: color think about this topic? Okay? Well, I've got letters

2226
02:00:59,560 --> 02:01:03,040
Speaker 1: to forest and stream, you know, and sporting publications and

2227
02:01:03,080 --> 02:01:05,840
Speaker 1: agricultural journals, and people of color aren't contributing to those,

2228
02:01:06,000 --> 02:01:08,080
Speaker 1: so I'm getting the white perspective. Okay, Well, I'll read

2229
02:01:08,120 --> 02:01:10,280
Speaker 1: the interviews with former slaves that were done, you know,

2230
02:01:10,360 --> 02:01:13,840
Speaker 1: during the w p A interviews. Well, the most of

2231
02:01:13,840 --> 02:01:16,080
Speaker 1: the interviewers were white, so we don't know to what

2232
02:01:16,200 --> 02:01:18,240
Speaker 1: extent people were being as candid as they might. So

2233
02:01:18,280 --> 02:01:22,240
Speaker 1: you're always trying to tease out that other perspective. And

2234
02:01:22,280 --> 02:01:24,280
Speaker 1: that's really been, you know, one of the big weaknesses

2235
02:01:24,360 --> 02:01:27,560
Speaker 1: that historians always wanting to focus on the elite story

2236
02:01:27,560 --> 02:01:29,600
Speaker 1: that I mentioned at the beginning in that time period

2237
02:01:30,000 --> 02:01:32,200
Speaker 1: didn't even bother trying to figure out what what the

2238
02:01:32,200 --> 02:01:35,080
Speaker 1: poorer folks were thinking in that story. So it kind

2239
02:01:35,080 --> 02:01:37,440
Speaker 1: of fell the later generations of his storians and think, Okay,

2240
02:01:37,440 --> 02:01:40,040
Speaker 1: where can we tease out? How can we find what

2241
02:01:40,160 --> 02:01:42,640
Speaker 1: people were actually thinking? About this. Can we look at

2242
02:01:42,680 --> 02:01:45,960
Speaker 1: you know, court transcripts or interviews with former slaves, or

2243
02:01:45,960 --> 02:01:49,520
Speaker 1: how can we use a white source that talks about

2244
02:01:49,600 --> 02:01:51,960
Speaker 1: hunting and fishing in a way that you can sort

2245
02:01:51,960 --> 02:01:54,760
Speaker 1: of reveal, you know, some kind like that that story

2246
02:01:54,800 --> 02:01:57,400
Speaker 1: of the guy talking about his friend who was being

2247
02:01:57,480 --> 02:02:01,680
Speaker 1: you know, outshot by by the labor right. Um, the

2248
02:02:01,760 --> 02:02:04,400
Speaker 1: guy was never going to tell that story, but his buddy,

2249
02:02:04,440 --> 02:02:06,840
Speaker 1: to make fun of him, quotes that story and Forest

2250
02:02:06,880 --> 02:02:08,560
Speaker 1: and Stream. So I was able to get a little

2251
02:02:08,560 --> 02:02:11,280
Speaker 1: bit of that story. But it's hard to find that

2252
02:02:11,280 --> 02:02:13,920
Speaker 1: seems like quite the magazine. It was cool, it was

2253
02:02:14,040 --> 02:02:17,320
Speaker 1: very and I gotta tell you, Um, I get pretty

2254
02:02:17,360 --> 02:02:20,960
Speaker 1: easily distracted because I getting pretty enthusiastic about stuff and

2255
02:02:21,040 --> 02:02:23,400
Speaker 1: I pick up a nineteenth century copy of Forest and Stream.

2256
02:02:23,440 --> 02:02:24,760
Speaker 1: What I should be doing is flipping through it and

2257
02:02:24,800 --> 02:02:26,520
Speaker 1: seeing if I can find mention of ray and then

2258
02:02:26,560 --> 02:02:29,720
Speaker 1: I'm reading them all. So I've read so many issues

2259
02:02:29,720 --> 02:02:31,440
Speaker 1: of Force and Stream over here because it's just fun.

2260
02:02:31,720 --> 02:02:34,920
Speaker 1: I love looking at the ads. Williams could have a

2261
02:02:34,920 --> 02:02:38,280
Speaker 1: good conversation. Yeah, yeah, we had a We got a

2262
02:02:38,280 --> 02:02:40,480
Speaker 1: friend who he came on the show before. We'll have

2263
02:02:40,560 --> 02:02:42,920
Speaker 1: to find out what the hell episode? This was very

2264
02:02:42,960 --> 02:02:49,360
Speaker 1: early in the infancy of this this year show. Um,

2265
02:02:49,480 --> 02:02:52,400
Speaker 1: he looked at what did you look at a hundred years?

2266
02:02:53,760 --> 02:02:55,720
Speaker 1: It was It was not quite I want to say

2267
02:02:55,720 --> 02:02:57,960
Speaker 1: it was like post World War two, I think is

2268
02:02:58,000 --> 02:02:59,520
Speaker 1: where he picked it up, right, And I can't remember

2269
02:02:59,520 --> 02:03:04,440
Speaker 1: if Ray was one of them, but he reviewed attitude

2270
02:03:04,480 --> 02:03:08,760
Speaker 1: towards gun rights, attitude towards the environment, attitude, a handful

2271
02:03:08,800 --> 02:03:13,000
Speaker 1: of things just in a couple of publications over a

2272
02:03:13,080 --> 02:03:17,880
Speaker 1: hundred years. The evolution like basically the evolution of the

2273
02:03:17,960 --> 02:03:26,520
Speaker 1: American sportsman's mind, opinions, interests, perception, as captured in a

2274
02:03:26,600 --> 02:03:29,440
Speaker 1: hundred years of these and mostly through the editorials. Right,

2275
02:03:31,280 --> 02:03:33,920
Speaker 1: but you got to cover interesting things, man. That um

2276
02:03:33,960 --> 02:03:37,760
Speaker 1: that we talked about the show is when freezers became

2277
02:03:37,800 --> 02:03:42,240
Speaker 1: a thing that changed ship Like when you know whatever

2278
02:03:42,480 --> 02:03:44,160
Speaker 1: people are hunting in the forties or whatever. I can't

2279
02:03:44,160 --> 02:03:47,840
Speaker 1: remember what it happened, but you don't have freezer. You

2280
02:03:47,880 --> 02:03:49,720
Speaker 1: didn't know the whole idea of like shooting a deer

2281
02:03:49,760 --> 02:03:52,880
Speaker 1: and putting your freezer all year wasn't a thing. This

2282
02:03:53,080 --> 02:03:55,240
Speaker 1: wasn't a thing. Then all of a sudden it became

2283
02:03:55,280 --> 02:03:57,640
Speaker 1: like everybody had a freezer and just changed the whole

2284
02:03:57,640 --> 02:04:01,680
Speaker 1: conversation about game. Oh that's it. That that makes me

2285
02:04:01,760 --> 02:04:04,960
Speaker 1: want to dive back into something because right, how many

2286
02:04:04,960 --> 02:04:06,760
Speaker 1: times you heard that? But like, no, it's like, wasn't

2287
02:04:06,760 --> 02:04:08,160
Speaker 1: the case. You haven't there's nothing to do with it.

2288
02:04:08,200 --> 02:04:10,240
Speaker 1: You got it and you had to find gave it away,

2289
02:04:10,280 --> 02:04:12,560
Speaker 1: and everybody ate it and that was it. You know.

2290
02:04:12,600 --> 02:04:15,520
Speaker 1: The big the big thing for for elite sportsman, especially

2291
02:04:15,600 --> 02:04:19,360
Speaker 1: on these you know, these big excursions, lots of visitors,

2292
02:04:19,400 --> 02:04:22,160
Speaker 1: lots of money. They're the really prominent ones where they

2293
02:04:22,200 --> 02:04:24,560
Speaker 1: would have toither the retinue. Right, so one of these

2294
02:04:24,560 --> 02:04:27,320
Speaker 1: big hunts. Uh, the kind of standard move for these

2295
02:04:27,320 --> 02:04:30,160
Speaker 1: elites was they would get every single thing that they captured,

2296
02:04:30,160 --> 02:04:32,680
Speaker 1: that they caught. They would divvy up some of it

2297
02:04:32,720 --> 02:04:35,240
Speaker 1: among their guides and laborers, and then the rest they

2298
02:04:35,240 --> 02:04:37,240
Speaker 1: would just have a big old party and give away

2299
02:04:37,320 --> 02:04:40,440
Speaker 1: to people in the area to show they're sort of aristocratic, uh,

2300
02:04:40,520 --> 02:04:43,520
Speaker 1: you know whatever they call it, their their their generosity.

2301
02:04:43,720 --> 02:04:47,240
Speaker 1: I wonder how that changed with the freezer, because I

2302
02:04:47,240 --> 02:04:49,840
Speaker 1: would imagine giving it away if you're not gonna eat it,

2303
02:04:49,840 --> 02:04:51,600
Speaker 1: because someone's gonna say, oh my god, did you see

2304
02:04:51,640 --> 02:04:53,720
Speaker 1: what Mr John he was eating what he caught. Is

2305
02:04:53,720 --> 02:04:56,480
Speaker 1: he having hard times? What's going on here? Because that

2306
02:04:56,520 --> 02:04:57,960
Speaker 1: was sort of thing. I don't have to eat what

2307
02:04:58,000 --> 02:05:00,320
Speaker 1: I catch, I give it away. I wonder if once

2308
02:05:00,360 --> 02:05:02,520
Speaker 1: freezers were around, I think, hey, throw that in the freezer.

2309
02:05:03,040 --> 02:05:05,760
Speaker 1: Let's not give that away. Yeah. I go read Randall's dissertation.

2310
02:05:06,720 --> 02:05:09,640
Speaker 1: That sounds really interesting. Yeah, I wish Yeah, you'll find

2311
02:05:09,640 --> 02:05:12,480
Speaker 1: it go way back. We know now there's like a

2312
02:05:12,560 --> 02:05:15,000
Speaker 1: lack of diversity right in the in the hunting general,

2313
02:05:15,080 --> 02:05:18,720
Speaker 1: hunting and fishing crowd in this country. And obviously it

2314
02:05:18,920 --> 02:05:22,120
Speaker 1: stems from what we've just been talking about. So can

2315
02:05:22,160 --> 02:05:25,160
Speaker 1: you kind of put that in perspective? Well, yeah, and

2316
02:05:25,400 --> 02:05:26,680
Speaker 1: I guess would. I would have to say I didn't

2317
02:05:26,680 --> 02:05:28,880
Speaker 1: get explicitly too much into this in the book because

2318
02:05:28,880 --> 02:05:31,560
Speaker 1: I sort of kind of shut it off around thet

2319
02:05:33,280 --> 02:05:36,520
Speaker 1: um but I think there's there's there's a lot there. Um.

2320
02:05:36,640 --> 02:05:38,400
Speaker 1: You know. I was actually talking to Jonathan Wilkins about

2321
02:05:38,440 --> 02:05:41,280
Speaker 1: this not too long ago. The sort of stereotype, uh,

2322
02:05:41,320 --> 02:05:43,440
Speaker 1: you know that you know, people of color, you know,

2323
02:05:43,520 --> 02:05:46,040
Speaker 1: don't like the outdoors or don't swim, or you know,

2324
02:05:46,120 --> 02:05:49,880
Speaker 1: don't hunt as often as white. It's predominantly a white thing. Um.

2325
02:05:49,920 --> 02:05:51,600
Speaker 1: And you touched on that, you know, in that blog

2326
02:05:51,680 --> 02:05:54,480
Speaker 1: that you posted a few weeks ago. The diversity can

2327
02:05:54,520 --> 02:05:57,880
Speaker 1: be an issue sometimes in the contemporary scene. Yeah, and

2328
02:05:57,920 --> 02:06:01,200
Speaker 1: I always I always attributed it or imagined it being

2329
02:06:01,360 --> 02:06:05,440
Speaker 1: like a demographics issue that after the war, so many

2330
02:06:05,480 --> 02:06:09,000
Speaker 1: people came in the industrial to work in the industrialized North.

2331
02:06:09,320 --> 02:06:11,320
Speaker 1: That's one of these surprises of me how prevalent hunting

2332
02:06:11,320 --> 02:06:15,040
Speaker 1: and fishing were at the time. Yeah. Absolutely, And the

2333
02:06:15,040 --> 02:06:18,280
Speaker 1: way I would look at it is, um, you know,

2334
02:06:18,480 --> 02:06:22,160
Speaker 1: there's this very deep and rich sporting tradition in the

2335
02:06:22,200 --> 02:06:26,000
Speaker 1: black community, slaves, free blacks, you know, and we intensifies

2336
02:06:26,040 --> 02:06:29,320
Speaker 1: after emancipation because of sporting tourism. So it's it's a

2337
02:06:29,360 --> 02:06:33,000
Speaker 1: big part of black life, especially in the rural South.

2338
02:06:33,760 --> 02:06:38,120
Speaker 1: But then we can look at at restrictions on sporting

2339
02:06:38,160 --> 02:06:42,080
Speaker 1: practices in the South. They're used the same way that

2340
02:06:42,080 --> 02:06:44,240
Speaker 1: other gym crow laws are used, you know, they're really

2341
02:06:44,240 --> 02:06:47,760
Speaker 1: trying to regulate black behavior. So by the time we

2342
02:06:47,840 --> 02:06:52,560
Speaker 1: get to you know, nine nineteen ten, the black population

2343
02:06:52,600 --> 02:06:54,920
Speaker 1: in the South was like, look, you know, lynch ings,

2344
02:06:55,400 --> 02:07:00,040
Speaker 1: Jim Crow laws, voting restrictions, hunting and fishing, restrictions. It

2345
02:07:00,080 --> 02:07:02,120
Speaker 1: is all part of a big story that's you know,

2346
02:07:02,240 --> 02:07:05,760
Speaker 1: really making the South less hospitable place. So the Great

2347
02:07:05,760 --> 02:07:10,480
Speaker 1: Migration begins and then um the northern cities. And I think,

2348
02:07:10,480 --> 02:07:13,480
Speaker 1: I think probably the thing that helps people remember just

2349
02:07:13,600 --> 02:07:19,360
Speaker 1: how connected African American population was to hunting and fishing

2350
02:07:19,360 --> 02:07:21,720
Speaker 1: in the South, which we think of you hunting and

2351
02:07:21,760 --> 02:07:24,520
Speaker 1: fishing is a rural thing, right for most people. Well,

2352
02:07:24,720 --> 02:07:28,480
Speaker 1: in eighteen ninety, African Americans were demographically the most southern

2353
02:07:28,520 --> 02:07:31,520
Speaker 1: and rural population in the United States. But then the

2354
02:07:31,560 --> 02:07:35,520
Speaker 1: migration period starts between a nineteen hundred and nineteen fifty,

2355
02:07:35,600 --> 02:07:39,120
Speaker 1: and today African Americans are demographically the most northern and

2356
02:07:39,200 --> 02:07:42,640
Speaker 1: urban population. But if you back up far enough, it's

2357
02:07:42,640 --> 02:07:47,040
Speaker 1: a rural population in the South historically relying on these

2358
02:07:47,240 --> 02:07:51,120
Speaker 1: forms of land and wildlife use to get by. It

2359
02:07:51,160 --> 02:07:53,440
Speaker 1: gets harder for them to do that. And I gotta

2360
02:07:53,480 --> 02:07:56,840
Speaker 1: believe it's on the list of factors that influenced the

2361
02:07:56,880 --> 02:07:59,840
Speaker 1: Great Migration. So I feel like there was a there

2362
02:07:59,880 --> 02:08:03,600
Speaker 1: was a sort of a separate, a forced separation, you know.

2363
02:08:03,680 --> 02:08:04,960
Speaker 1: I don't, I don't know if you back up a

2364
02:08:05,000 --> 02:08:07,240
Speaker 1: hundred and twenty years, I don't think you could hold

2365
02:08:07,280 --> 02:08:09,960
Speaker 1: the the idea that people of color don't use the

2366
02:08:10,040 --> 02:08:12,840
Speaker 1: natural environment as much as whites, that that was just

2367
02:08:12,880 --> 02:08:14,800
Speaker 1: that was kind of separated they were they were that

2368
02:08:14,880 --> 02:08:17,920
Speaker 1: was taken from them, and not only did they use it,

2369
02:08:17,960 --> 02:08:21,600
Speaker 1: but they were sounds like renowned as possibly being the

2370
02:08:21,640 --> 02:08:24,400
Speaker 1: best ones at using it. Yeah, I mean there's there's

2371
02:08:24,400 --> 02:08:28,000
Speaker 1: a real tradition there. And uh, I think if we

2372
02:08:28,040 --> 02:08:33,320
Speaker 1: remember that, Uh you made the point in the blog, right,

2373
02:08:33,360 --> 02:08:37,040
Speaker 1: the idea that you know, the question of what's the

2374
02:08:37,080 --> 02:08:41,560
Speaker 1: way forward, uh, bringing new people into this sporting community,

2375
02:08:41,680 --> 02:08:45,120
Speaker 1: or or preserving the traditions of those who already do it.

2376
02:08:45,440 --> 02:08:47,280
Speaker 1: Well for the people who are saying, you know, let's

2377
02:08:47,280 --> 02:08:51,400
Speaker 1: preserve the traditions of those who already do it. Um,

2378
02:08:51,520 --> 02:08:54,320
Speaker 1: the list of people that have a tradition in those

2379
02:08:54,360 --> 02:08:56,680
Speaker 1: areas is bigger than our current list of people that

2380
02:08:57,080 --> 02:09:01,000
Speaker 1: think of themselves as traditional sportsman and sports man. There's

2381
02:09:01,040 --> 02:09:02,960
Speaker 1: this other group of people that used to be a

2382
02:09:03,040 --> 02:09:06,120
Speaker 1: huge part of American hunting and fishing and not quite

2383
02:09:06,120 --> 02:09:09,880
Speaker 1: so much now. So it's not like we can just say, well,

2384
02:09:09,880 --> 02:09:13,400
Speaker 1: you know, clearly historically people of color haven't really wanted

2385
02:09:13,400 --> 02:09:15,720
Speaker 1: to be involved in Yeah, we don't need to think

2386
02:09:15,720 --> 02:09:17,880
Speaker 1: about it. So there there is a question of you know,

2387
02:09:18,000 --> 02:09:22,200
Speaker 1: participation in outdoor activities hunting and fishing among diverse populations

2388
02:09:22,760 --> 02:09:25,200
Speaker 1: needs to be encouraged. It does bring up interesting just

2389
02:09:25,360 --> 02:09:28,320
Speaker 1: the idea about tradition, you know, depends how far back

2390
02:09:28,360 --> 02:09:30,480
Speaker 1: you want to delve back. Yeah, absolutely, And you know,

2391
02:09:30,520 --> 02:09:32,240
Speaker 1: and and I've I've talked to a lot of people

2392
02:09:32,680 --> 02:09:35,960
Speaker 1: over the years that I've met, you know, just not

2393
02:09:36,080 --> 02:09:38,520
Speaker 1: in the context of my work, but I've just met them.

2394
02:09:38,560 --> 02:09:41,080
Speaker 1: And and oh, you do hunting and fishing. Oh yeah,

2395
02:09:41,120 --> 02:09:43,280
Speaker 1: my family used to be really big into that and

2396
02:09:43,320 --> 02:09:45,840
Speaker 1: you know, not so much. Now, where'd your family come from?

2397
02:09:45,880 --> 02:09:50,160
Speaker 1: So we migrated from Mississippi. You know. I'm like, well,

2398
02:09:50,160 --> 02:09:53,880
Speaker 1: that's that's that's con that's consistent with the story. Yeah.

2399
02:09:53,960 --> 02:09:58,000
Speaker 1: I regard myself as um having like a deep family

2400
02:09:58,360 --> 02:10:03,520
Speaker 1: tradition and hunting. But my ancestors came from Sicily, Western Europe.

2401
02:10:04,120 --> 02:10:07,960
Speaker 1: Like probably not deep. I mean by deep, I mean

2402
02:10:08,040 --> 02:10:12,320
Speaker 1: my grandfather. Do you know if those ancestors that were

2403
02:10:12,400 --> 02:10:15,080
Speaker 1: in Europe hunted? No, we have no one has any

2404
02:10:15,120 --> 02:10:18,360
Speaker 1: idea who they were. Right, Well, no, that's not true.

2405
02:10:18,360 --> 02:10:21,760
Speaker 1: On the Sicilians. We do the Ronella's we do. I

2406
02:10:21,760 --> 02:10:23,560
Speaker 1: don't know that they didn't hunt the damner didn't when

2407
02:10:23,600 --> 02:10:27,800
Speaker 1: they got here. So I'm saying, like deep tradition for

2408
02:10:27,840 --> 02:10:32,800
Speaker 1: me is that my maternal and paternal grandfather, you know,

2409
02:10:33,360 --> 02:10:36,120
Speaker 1: one of whom I met and hung out with. So

2410
02:10:36,200 --> 02:10:40,480
Speaker 1: that's how deep that is. Well, you know, in a sense,

2411
02:10:40,480 --> 02:10:42,160
Speaker 1: I would argue is that there's a different kind of

2412
02:10:42,200 --> 02:10:45,000
Speaker 1: depth there. There there's an historical depth to those kind

2413
02:10:45,000 --> 02:10:47,720
Speaker 1: of connections because what I've what I've learned over the

2414
02:10:47,800 --> 02:10:50,120
Speaker 1: years from reading different books about hunting coming out of

2415
02:10:50,120 --> 02:10:53,520
Speaker 1: the European tradition is a lot of people like even

2416
02:10:53,520 --> 02:10:56,160
Speaker 1: like these maligned you know, European immigrants that go to

2417
02:10:56,160 --> 02:10:59,600
Speaker 1: New York State and are accused of being game hogs. Um,

2418
02:10:59,640 --> 02:11:02,080
Speaker 1: you know, you're an immigrant that comes from most of Europe.

2419
02:11:02,080 --> 02:11:05,520
Speaker 1: They've got a long history of really restrictive game laws,

2420
02:11:05,840 --> 02:11:08,120
Speaker 1: a game system that is flat out gives all the

2421
02:11:08,120 --> 02:11:11,360
Speaker 1: privileges and rights to the landed aristocrats. You can explore

2422
02:11:11,400 --> 02:11:15,320
Speaker 1: that through like elements of that through the robin Hood narrative. Yeah, exactly.

2423
02:11:15,360 --> 02:11:19,600
Speaker 1: It's a tremendous source of conflict. And when people migrate

2424
02:11:19,600 --> 02:11:22,360
Speaker 1: to the US and they're like, whoa, we can just

2425
02:11:22,560 --> 02:11:25,640
Speaker 1: do this, This is amazing. So there's this sort of

2426
02:11:26,120 --> 02:11:28,920
Speaker 1: instant tradition like look, I am allowed to do this, now,

2427
02:11:28,960 --> 02:11:31,200
Speaker 1: this is fan What a land of opportunity when I

2428
02:11:31,200 --> 02:11:33,720
Speaker 1: can actually freely hunt and fish without having to worry

2429
02:11:33,720 --> 02:11:36,960
Speaker 1: about the rich guy always gets first crack. So I

2430
02:11:36,960 --> 02:11:40,000
Speaker 1: think that a lot of sort of the more recent

2431
02:11:40,160 --> 02:11:42,280
Speaker 1: sporting even you know, even if you are you're the

2432
02:11:42,280 --> 02:11:44,920
Speaker 1: first generation to pick it up, you're kind of continuing

2433
02:11:44,960 --> 02:11:49,800
Speaker 1: that tradition of something that demonstrates independence that's common across

2434
02:11:49,920 --> 02:11:53,080
Speaker 1: you know, white, black, rich, poor when people do these

2435
02:11:53,080 --> 02:11:57,400
Speaker 1: things historically, they think this is about sufficiency. Independence, individual

2436
02:11:57,400 --> 02:12:01,760
Speaker 1: competence for many people feels like an American birthright exactly.

2437
02:12:02,160 --> 02:12:04,400
Speaker 1: And that was gonna be my closing thought, and you're

2438
02:12:04,640 --> 02:12:06,840
Speaker 1: just you know, saying it way better than I could.

2439
02:12:06,920 --> 02:12:10,160
Speaker 1: But it was just like reading the book has given

2440
02:12:10,160 --> 02:12:15,240
Speaker 1: me a completely new and better, stronger appreciation for hunting

2441
02:12:15,240 --> 02:12:19,080
Speaker 1: and fishing is like a means to freedom because if

2442
02:12:19,080 --> 02:12:23,160
Speaker 1: they if like these slaves didn't have that, like you know,

2443
02:12:24,160 --> 02:12:26,440
Speaker 1: just imagine, you know, I mean, we don't know what

2444
02:12:26,480 --> 02:12:28,880
Speaker 1: the outcome would have been, right, But like with hunting

2445
02:12:28,880 --> 02:12:32,320
Speaker 1: and fishing, it like immediately gave them a means to

2446
02:12:32,720 --> 02:12:34,760
Speaker 1: be like, oh, even though we're free, even though you

2447
02:12:34,800 --> 02:12:38,080
Speaker 1: still hold you know, some power overs because when you

2448
02:12:38,120 --> 02:12:40,839
Speaker 1: have to survive and we need to work and we feed.

2449
02:12:40,840 --> 02:12:44,080
Speaker 1: But because they had hunting and fishing, they were allowed

2450
02:12:44,120 --> 02:12:47,120
Speaker 1: to be freer. Yeah, before you came in, you and

2451
02:12:47,200 --> 02:12:49,280
Speaker 1: I were just having a quick chat and he kind

2452
02:12:49,280 --> 02:12:52,760
Speaker 1: of pointed out use these words, but he pointed out

2453
02:12:52,840 --> 02:12:55,960
Speaker 1: the ways in which it's a it's like a celebration

2454
02:12:57,120 --> 02:13:01,240
Speaker 1: in some ways of celebration hunting and fishing. Yeah. Yeah,

2455
02:13:01,280 --> 02:13:03,640
Speaker 1: I think so, because you know, I guess the person.

2456
02:13:03,680 --> 02:13:06,400
Speaker 1: I let's circle back to Charles Ball, right, the guy

2457
02:13:06,440 --> 02:13:09,160
Speaker 1: who had to quote about feeling like an independent man.

2458
02:13:09,240 --> 02:13:13,680
Speaker 1: You know, he's a slave and this kind of powerful

2459
02:13:13,760 --> 02:13:16,040
Speaker 1: idea of competence, which we sort of lost. We don't

2460
02:13:16,040 --> 02:13:18,760
Speaker 1: really dig that these days. But the nineteenth century model

2461
02:13:18,760 --> 02:13:22,360
Speaker 1: of competence was I'm independent, I own my own land,

2462
02:13:22,920 --> 02:13:25,560
Speaker 1: I can feed myself in my family, and I'm beholden

2463
02:13:25,560 --> 02:13:27,800
Speaker 1: to no one. I'm debt free. Like so that was

2464
02:13:27,840 --> 02:13:31,400
Speaker 1: like the goal. You're a competent you know, American. I'm

2465
02:13:31,400 --> 02:13:33,800
Speaker 1: still big into competency, but I don't describe it though,

2466
02:13:34,040 --> 02:13:35,960
Speaker 1: h yeah, it's not a tern where you use much anymore.

2467
02:13:36,480 --> 02:13:39,600
Speaker 1: It's a great it's a great idea to fix stuff.

2468
02:13:42,640 --> 02:13:46,000
Speaker 1: And so there's this notion of being a competent citizen,

2469
02:13:46,520 --> 02:13:48,480
Speaker 1: and it was really understood back then is that was

2470
02:13:48,560 --> 02:13:50,800
Speaker 1: really a white thing, or at least that was the

2471
02:13:50,800 --> 02:13:53,360
Speaker 1: white view, like competence. A slave is not going to

2472
02:13:53,440 --> 02:13:56,680
Speaker 1: have that right their own. They're literally there. They can't

2473
02:13:56,680 --> 02:13:59,560
Speaker 1: have honor because they're owned by somebody else, and they're

2474
02:13:59,600 --> 02:14:02,880
Speaker 1: not going to independent. They don't feed their family. I do.

2475
02:14:03,320 --> 02:14:05,440
Speaker 1: So that just wasn't a thing that I that I,

2476
02:14:05,560 --> 02:14:09,080
Speaker 1: as as an owner, thought that was for them. But

2477
02:14:09,120 --> 02:14:10,680
Speaker 1: then you're Charles Ball and you're like, you know what,

2478
02:14:10,720 --> 02:14:12,880
Speaker 1: you own me, You own my family, You control what

2479
02:14:12,960 --> 02:14:15,800
Speaker 1: I do, you control my days. But you know what,

2480
02:14:15,840 --> 02:14:19,040
Speaker 1: I am the best sportsman you have. I go off

2481
02:14:19,040 --> 02:14:21,800
Speaker 1: on my own time and earned game and income from

2482
02:14:21,800 --> 02:14:23,760
Speaker 1: my family that you don't want me to have, and

2483
02:14:23,800 --> 02:14:26,960
Speaker 1: I do it anyway, and I demonstrate skill that you

2484
02:14:27,000 --> 02:14:30,560
Speaker 1: say shouldn't be demonstrated by people of color. And in

2485
02:14:30,640 --> 02:14:34,320
Speaker 1: the sort of limited world of options of a slave,

2486
02:14:34,520 --> 02:14:37,080
Speaker 1: that's a that's those are a couple of extended middle

2487
02:14:37,120 --> 02:14:39,640
Speaker 1: fingers to the master, and in and of itself, that's

2488
02:14:39,680 --> 02:14:45,640
Speaker 1: worth something. I think. All right, Scott Guiltner with we're

2489
02:14:45,640 --> 02:14:49,440
Speaker 1: gonna hit it again, Culver Stockton College. That's it. It's

2490
02:14:49,480 --> 02:14:53,760
Speaker 1: not Missouri, it is Canton, Missouri. What were you saying.

2491
02:14:53,760 --> 02:14:57,280
Speaker 1: I thought you were saying, what about Illinois? You I

2492
02:14:57,360 --> 02:15:00,520
Speaker 1: live right across the river in Quincy, Illinois. Canton is

2493
02:15:00,520 --> 02:15:02,240
Speaker 1: on one side of the river, and Quincy still down

2494
02:15:02,280 --> 02:15:03,840
Speaker 1: the street on the home of the guy that was

2495
02:15:03,880 --> 02:15:06,480
Speaker 1: flying the and Nola gay when it dropped the Yeah,

2496
02:15:06,480 --> 02:15:09,400
Speaker 1: Paul Tibots, Yeah, he was born in His mother, Nola

2497
02:15:09,440 --> 02:15:12,560
Speaker 1: Gayo was was born and raised in Quincy. His mom

2498
02:15:12,560 --> 02:15:14,200
Speaker 1: was a Nola gay Yeah. That's why the plane's name

2499
02:15:14,240 --> 02:15:16,320
Speaker 1: that you have to do his own plane, Yeah, named

2500
02:15:16,320 --> 02:15:19,960
Speaker 1: it after his mom. And it dropped on Hiroshima or Nagasaki.

2501
02:15:20,160 --> 02:15:24,560
Speaker 1: I think Hiroshima. What happened to that guy? I have

2502
02:15:24,680 --> 02:15:27,960
Speaker 1: no idea. I do know that about oh, geez, thirty

2503
02:15:28,040 --> 02:15:29,760
Speaker 1: years ago or so. One of the one of the

2504
02:15:29,800 --> 02:15:32,720
Speaker 1: historians in town told me that, uh, there was a

2505
02:15:32,760 --> 02:15:35,960
Speaker 1: push to name an elementary school after him, and then

2506
02:15:36,000 --> 02:15:39,320
Speaker 1: some people were like, I don't know, atomic bomb elementary school,

2507
02:15:39,400 --> 02:15:42,360
Speaker 1: and they eventually shelved the plan, but getting name of

2508
02:15:42,400 --> 02:15:45,840
Speaker 1: school after him and they were afraid. So yeah, I

2509
02:15:45,880 --> 02:15:50,640
Speaker 1: don't know. I mean, m hm, a doubt, you know.

2510
02:15:51,040 --> 02:15:54,280
Speaker 1: I mean the guy had was doing a job. He's yeah,

2511
02:15:55,120 --> 02:15:57,920
Speaker 1: did his job? Did it? Well, we'll talk about that

2512
02:15:57,960 --> 02:16:02,480
Speaker 1: once some more time. That's a tough one. No, it's

2513
02:16:02,480 --> 02:16:05,680
Speaker 1: not tough. I mean for some people to tell one

2514
02:16:05,800 --> 02:16:12,560
Speaker 1: for some people's tough one. All right, y'all, thank you, thanks, yeah,

2515
02:16:12,560 --> 02:16:14,840
Speaker 1: thank you all so much. Great book. Everybody should read

2516
02:16:14,840 --> 02:16:18,040
Speaker 1: this book. I appreciate and uh, yeah it is Uh,

2517
02:16:18,080 --> 02:16:21,080
Speaker 1: I'll just mentioned this a shameless plug if you don't mind. Uh,

2518
02:16:21,280 --> 02:16:23,960
Speaker 1: you can grab this on Amazon. Um. It is currently

2519
02:16:24,000 --> 02:16:27,080
Speaker 1: out of stock, but I check this morning and it's

2520
02:16:27,120 --> 02:16:31,000
Speaker 1: listed as restocked on June, so that's not too bad.

2521
02:16:31,320 --> 02:16:35,440
Speaker 1: So yeah, as usually when you win, there's a book

2522
02:16:35,440 --> 02:16:37,240
Speaker 1: and low supply and then all of a sudden you

2523
02:16:37,280 --> 02:16:40,600
Speaker 1: see it selling for big amounts of money. Have you

2524
02:16:40,640 --> 02:16:42,840
Speaker 1: seen it go for a lot of money? And sometimes uh,

2525
02:16:42,879 --> 02:16:44,680
Speaker 1: because it's like there's like not many for sale, and

2526
02:16:44,760 --> 02:16:49,200
Speaker 1: some guys like I'll tell you what I'll do. Yeah, yeah,

2527
02:16:49,280 --> 02:16:52,360
Speaker 1: and uh and uh, two things to any of you

2528
02:16:52,400 --> 02:16:54,360
Speaker 1: out there that may listen to this. If any of

2529
02:16:54,400 --> 02:16:57,480
Speaker 1: you paid that amount of money for my book, I

2530
02:16:57,520 --> 02:17:00,400
Speaker 1: have two thoughts, one thank you and two out of

2531
02:17:00,440 --> 02:17:03,720
Speaker 1: your mind? What were you thinking? Let me hit you

2532
02:17:03,720 --> 02:17:07,080
Speaker 1: with a quick book story. So, uh, there's a book

2533
02:17:07,120 --> 02:17:09,440
Speaker 1: I'm a great admirer of by a guy named Duncan

2534
02:17:09,480 --> 02:17:12,240
Speaker 1: Gil Chris. It's called Hunt High not like Baked but

2535
02:17:12,360 --> 02:17:15,680
Speaker 1: Hunt the High Country, and um, I love the book

2536
02:17:15,720 --> 02:17:18,320
Speaker 1: and he was a very accomplished alpine hunter. And I

2537
02:17:18,320 --> 02:17:19,920
Speaker 1: always talked about this book, but the book was out

2538
02:17:19,959 --> 02:17:23,320
Speaker 1: of print, and eventually I realized that someone run off

2539
02:17:23,320 --> 02:17:27,000
Speaker 1: with my copy. So I go online and then there's

2540
02:17:27,000 --> 02:17:28,720
Speaker 1: some guys selling it for a hunter bucks or seventy

2541
02:17:28,720 --> 02:17:31,039
Speaker 1: five bucks. I'm like, that's ridiculous, you know if I

2542
02:17:31,080 --> 02:17:34,160
Speaker 1: wanted it back, So I buy the book. The book

2543
02:17:34,200 --> 02:17:35,879
Speaker 1: shows up in my house with a sticky note on

2544
02:17:35,959 --> 02:17:38,720
Speaker 1: the cover and it says, dude, you're the reason I

2545
02:17:38,760 --> 02:17:44,760
Speaker 1: bought this book. Yeah, then you had to give me

2546
02:17:44,800 --> 02:17:47,680
Speaker 1: that copy of that book, which I now proudly owned.

2547
02:17:47,680 --> 02:17:49,680
Speaker 1: I'm glad to know that it's a hundred dollar copy

2548
02:17:49,680 --> 02:17:52,680
Speaker 1: of that book because I had loaned out to you

2549
02:17:52,879 --> 02:17:56,920
Speaker 1: a like a like a first edition. Jack O'Connor that

2550
02:17:57,040 --> 02:17:59,400
Speaker 1: you had given away. So now I'm the owner of

2551
02:17:59,480 --> 02:18:02,360
Speaker 1: your hunter A card h High. Oh yeah, you're not

2552
02:18:02,360 --> 02:18:05,240
Speaker 1: getting it back. Forgot about that. That's the way it's

2553
02:18:05,240 --> 02:18:07,360
Speaker 1: supposed to be, right, they say. They say that books

2554
02:18:07,360 --> 02:18:11,240
Speaker 1: shouldn't have owners, just readers just pass them around. I

2555
02:18:11,280 --> 02:18:17,080
Speaker 1: don't abide by that. I like other stuff you said, Scott. Thanks, thanks,