WEBVTT - Ken Burns 0:00:02.880 --> 0:00:05.520 More than a quarter of a century ago, Ken Burns 0:00:05.600 --> 0:00:08.720 came into the consciousness of every American with this compelling 0:00:08.800 --> 0:00:11.920 nine part series in the Civil War. Since that time, 0:00:12.119 --> 0:00:15.320 Kenneth continued to make an enormous number of documentaries about 0:00:15.320 --> 0:00:18.720 American history. I share his love of American history, and 0:00:18.760 --> 0:00:20.560 I've come to no Can as a friend and also 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.200 as a supporter, And recently I sat down with Ken 0:00:23.280 --> 0:00:27.320 to discuss our mutual interest about this country's history. So, Ken, 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.960 you were, I assume now in Walpole, New Hampshire, where 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:33.960 you do much most of your work up Walpole, New 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:37.480 Hampshire is not known as a media center, so I'm 0:00:37.479 --> 0:00:39.680 just curious how come you happen to do all of 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:43.880 your work there. Well. I moved here in nine forty 0:00:43.880 --> 0:00:47.480 two years ago when I realized that becoming a documentary 0:00:47.520 --> 0:00:52.080 filmmaker focusing in American history was taking a vowe of 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:56.520 anonymity and poverty. And though my first film was nominated 0:00:56.520 --> 0:00:59.240 for an Oscar and everyone presumed that I would come 0:00:59.240 --> 0:01:00.960 back to this it a year ago to l a. 0:01:01.560 --> 0:01:04.759 I stayed here because of the labor intensive nature of 0:01:04.760 --> 0:01:07.759 what I do, the fact that it's all grant funded, 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:13.800 philanthropic uh, projects, and that they're very time consuming. So 0:01:13.840 --> 0:01:16.520 I keep my overhead very low here. And it's quite 0:01:16.560 --> 0:01:20.640 beautiful in southern New Hampshire. So I assume you're Walpaul, 0:01:20.720 --> 0:01:24.959 New Hampshire's most famous resident. Oh gosh, I don't think so. 0:01:25.080 --> 0:01:28.240 You know. I always thought that if my great great 0:01:28.440 --> 0:01:32.200 great grandchildren sort of kept their heads low, they might 0:01:32.240 --> 0:01:35.840 be able to be a member of the Volunteer Fire Department. 0:01:35.959 --> 0:01:38.160 So there's a kind of a different kind of hierarchy 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:41.360 here where any notoriety plus fifty cents get you a 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:44.360 cup of coffee. Okay, So let's talk about most recent 0:01:45.240 --> 0:01:47.720 film that you've had on television, which is a four 0:01:47.800 --> 0:01:50.880 part series. Oh, Muhammed Ali. Why did you decide to 0:01:51.200 --> 0:01:54.520 focus on Muhammed Ali? What was your interest in him? Well, 0:01:54.520 --> 0:01:56.680 he's one of the most compelling figures in all of 0:01:56.720 --> 0:02:00.480 American history. He's certainly intersects with all the major issues 0:02:00.880 --> 0:02:04.280 of the last half of the twentieth century. The role 0:02:04.320 --> 0:02:07.880 of sports and society, the role of the black athlete 0:02:07.920 --> 0:02:11.680 in sports, the definitions of black manhood and black masculinity, 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:14.280 the Civil rights movement, not as a fixed thing but 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:17.120 as a kind of ongoing, developing thing. It's a story 0:02:17.160 --> 0:02:22.880 of politics, of course, of race, the central American question freedom. Um, 0:02:22.919 --> 0:02:26.400 it's also about faith and religion and Islam, about sex 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:29.600 and all of these things because human nature doesn't change, 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:31.640 or things were grappling with today. So when you have 0:02:31.680 --> 0:02:36.160 a larger than life mythic figure like Ali, he just um, 0:02:36.240 --> 0:02:38.880 he sort of lights up page after page of history. 0:02:38.880 --> 0:02:41.720 He's he's in a way irresistible. In is a way 0:02:41.760 --> 0:02:46.560 to communicate some pretty complex undertow about not just the US, 0:02:46.680 --> 0:02:49.280 but who we are. How long did it take you 0:02:49.360 --> 0:02:53.200 to do that? Serious? We said yes to this, uh 0:02:53.320 --> 0:02:58.840 In we began work in real earnest. Production and shooting 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:02.560 of most of the stuff began in sixteen, the year 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:06.760 that he died. Um. So you could say that it 0:03:06.840 --> 0:03:10.040 took eight years or seven years, um. But you know, 0:03:10.080 --> 0:03:12.640 there's fundraising involved. There are other projects that you're giving 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:15.400 your attention to at different times. What we need, though, 0:03:15.480 --> 0:03:17.720 is that period of time in order to do the 0:03:17.800 --> 0:03:20.320 deep dive on the research, in order to do the 0:03:20.400 --> 0:03:24.000 deep dive on the archives, and to be able to 0:03:24.040 --> 0:03:26.720 come up and say that we think we really got him, 0:03:27.000 --> 0:03:29.840 or at least that we have materials that show the 0:03:29.960 --> 0:03:34.440 kind of dynamics and the dimensions, the contradictions, um, even 0:03:34.440 --> 0:03:37.920 the controversy, the flaws of a character, and not have 0:03:38.280 --> 0:03:43.200 it merely be a resuscitation of conventional wisdom. So when 0:03:43.280 --> 0:03:46.720 Muhammad Ali, did you initially seek his approval or his 0:03:46.800 --> 0:03:50.840 family's approval or not? No? Um, we never operate that way. 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:54.000 We can't operate that way in PBS because it's so 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:56.720 completely you know, we have to have a separation of 0:03:56.800 --> 0:04:00.640 church and state. We did have cooperation from Emily members 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:04.280 in that they gave the photographs. Uh, they gave us access. 0:04:04.400 --> 0:04:06.760 We were able to interview two of his ex wives, 0:04:06.760 --> 0:04:10.480 We interviewed two of his daughters, his brother, friends, families, 0:04:10.720 --> 0:04:13.800 hangers on, scholars, you know, all of that sort of stuff, 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:15.920 that kind of triangulation that we want to do. Now, 0:04:15.920 --> 0:04:18.760 we need to see boxers today, professional boxers. They seemed 0:04:18.760 --> 0:04:22.520 awfully bulked up. They have gigantic muscles. Uh and maybe 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:26.159 because of stimulants they're taking, or maybe they're better training. 0:04:26.440 --> 0:04:29.320 But he didn't seem like an overly muscular person. What 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:31.520 was his strength as a as a fighter, was he 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:33.760 was as faster than anybody else? Or what was it 0:04:33.839 --> 0:04:35.720 that made him such a great boxer. He wasn't because 0:04:35.720 --> 0:04:38.640 he was so strong, was it? Well, you know, he trained, 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:40.880 he had he was very, very disciplined most of his life. 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:44.040 He usually lost when he hadn't been disciplined. And he 0:04:44.080 --> 0:04:46.640 did have, you know, great bulk to muscles, but not 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:49.120 in the kind of way that we see today. He's 0:04:49.160 --> 0:04:52.839 so suey generous in every single way, not just personality, 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.320 but in his style of boxing. He did everything wrong. 0:04:55.360 --> 0:04:57.800 You know, when somebody throws a punchet, you're supposed to duck. 0:04:58.560 --> 0:05:00.839 He would lean back, which is supposed to be the 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:04.480 recipe for disaster. And fortunately got a good trainer, Angelo Dundee, 0:05:04.640 --> 0:05:07.880 who realized that he was suey generous and that he 0:05:07.920 --> 0:05:10.240 would have to just strengthen these things. He moved around, 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:13.480 he was very quick, but he you know, he's an 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.040 amazing boxer. I made a film on Jack Johnson, the 0:05:16.080 --> 0:05:20.040 first African American heavyweight champion UM back in the first 0:05:20.279 --> 0:05:24.240 decade of the twentieth century, and they share similar traits. 0:05:24.240 --> 0:05:27.400 The difference was is that Jack Johnson was just for 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.839 himself and Muhammad Ali seemed to be for everybody. He 0:05:30.880 --> 0:05:34.120 seemed to want to carry everybody with him and to 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:36.480 love everybody. I mean, I think in the end, David, 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:38.240 it's a hard thing to talk about. This is a 0:05:38.240 --> 0:05:41.000 film about freedom, which is a classic American theme. It's 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:43.240 about courage, which is also true not just in the 0:05:43.320 --> 0:05:46.039 ring but in the kind of stance, particularly with Vietnam, 0:05:46.160 --> 0:05:48.480 but also about love. I mean, this guy dies five 0:05:48.560 --> 0:05:53.040 years ago, the most beloved and known person on the planet. 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:58.719 Something happened from that reviled, hated person refusing the draft 0:05:59.279 --> 0:06:02.440 to then and ats. That's a pretty interesting story that 0:06:02.520 --> 0:06:05.360 in many ways doesn't have anything to do with with boxing. 0:06:06.000 --> 0:06:09.960 So let's go back to how you became a documentary filmmaker. Um. 0:06:10.000 --> 0:06:12.800 Everybody who wants to be a documentary filmmaker now wants 0:06:12.800 --> 0:06:15.560 to be Ken Burns. Um. I don't know who your 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:18.400 role model was when you were starting out. But did 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:20.359 you grow up and say I don't want to be 0:06:20.360 --> 0:06:22.400 in private equity, I don't want to be in hedge funds? 0:06:22.480 --> 0:06:25.200 Things important like that? You said I wanted to be 0:06:25.240 --> 0:06:28.640 a documentary filmmaker. What propelled propelled you towards that? And 0:06:28.640 --> 0:06:31.400 where did you grow up? I I grew up the 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:36.000 son of an anthropologist and biologist mother who died very 0:06:36.000 --> 0:06:38.560 young of cancer of a tenure battle of cancer when 0:06:38.560 --> 0:06:41.080 I was eleven. I remember after my mom died, I 0:06:41.080 --> 0:06:43.359 saw my dad cry for the first time, and he 0:06:43.400 --> 0:06:45.520 cried at a movie, and I said, that's it. I 0:06:45.520 --> 0:06:48.159 want to become a MovieMaker, and that at that point 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:51.240 that meant Alfred Hitchcock or John Ford or Howard Hawks, 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:54.160 big name directors of the sixties. But I ended up 0:06:54.200 --> 0:06:58.040 going to Hampshire College, new brand new experimental school that 0:06:58.160 --> 0:06:59.840 opened in the fall of seventy I went in the 0:07:00.200 --> 0:07:03.200 fall of seventy one, and all of my teachers there 0:07:03.240 --> 0:07:07.560 were social documentaries, still photographers and filmmakers who reminded me 0:07:07.680 --> 0:07:10.520 quite correctly, that there is as much, if not more 0:07:10.600 --> 0:07:13.480 drama in what is in what was of any than 0:07:13.560 --> 0:07:16.720 anything the human imagination can dream up. And often the 0:07:16.760 --> 0:07:21.400 human imagination dreams up things based on historical fact or 0:07:21.880 --> 0:07:25.320 the impossibilities of historical stories, as you know as well. 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:28.600 So I emerged a documentary filmmaker and had the kind 0:07:28.640 --> 0:07:32.480 of Hampshire inspired hoods. But to just decide that I 0:07:32.520 --> 0:07:35.000 would just not go to New York and apprentice, I'd 0:07:35.000 --> 0:07:38.559 start my own company, Florentine Films. The first film we made, 0:07:38.720 --> 0:07:40.720 which took five and a half years to make because 0:07:40.760 --> 0:07:42.840 I looked like I was twelve years old and I 0:07:42.880 --> 0:07:44.840 was trying to sell people the Brooklyn Bridge. On the 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:47.960 Story of the Brooklyn Bridge was nominated for an Academy Award. 0:07:48.120 --> 0:07:52.480 And it was in that space that I moved from AMers, Massachusetts, 0:07:52.480 --> 0:07:55.240 where Hampshire was, to uh, New York, and then up 0:07:55.280 --> 0:07:58.000 here to Walpole, New Hampshire, where all the films have been, 0:07:58.200 --> 0:08:01.320 if not physically made, then erected. From up here was 0:08:01.360 --> 0:08:04.040 it easy to raise money for the Brooklyn Bridge. And 0:08:04.440 --> 0:08:06.680 people say, you're trying to sell me the brooklyn Bridge 0:08:06.840 --> 0:08:09.520 all the time, David in fact, and it was the 0:08:09.520 --> 0:08:11.600 baby face. I mean, I'm sixty eight now, and I 0:08:12.040 --> 0:08:14.320 actually know that I don't look like i'm sixty eight, 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:16.720 and uh, you can imagine what I look like at 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:20.120 at at twenty three and twenty four when I was 0:08:20.160 --> 0:08:24.400 beginning to work on it. So they would say, this 0:08:24.480 --> 0:08:26.240 child is trying to sell me the Brooklyn Bridge. And 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:29.040 for a long while I had to three ring binders 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:32.760 on my desk, you know, each those three four inch wide, 0:08:33.120 --> 0:08:36.440 big expandable affairs with all the letters of rejection, which 0:08:36.480 --> 0:08:39.600 I kept for you know, a decade on my desk, 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:42.599 just to remind me of just how incredibly hard and 0:08:42.679 --> 0:08:46.360 it's still hard, uh to to raise the money to 0:08:46.440 --> 0:08:49.880 do these things. But the independence is is worth it, 0:08:50.000 --> 0:08:53.960 the idea of being able to present to you a 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.880 film on Muhammad Ali that I'm not apologizing for. It's 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:00.000 a director's cut, and if you don't like it, it's 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:02.160 all my fault, you know what I mean. And I 0:09:02.200 --> 0:09:05.600 don't want to not say, oh, the executive producer wouldn't 0:09:05.679 --> 0:09:08.040 let me hire this person or this the budget didn't 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:10.360 allow me to do that thing. You know. It's just 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:13.160 we get to do it in the time it takes 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:15.200 to do it. However, long ten and a half years 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:18.280 for the Vietnam War, six or seven for this one 0:09:18.520 --> 0:09:21.680 on on all e um some of them are the 0:09:21.800 --> 0:09:25.200 National Parks was a ten year project. So after the 0:09:25.200 --> 0:09:28.160 Brooklyn Bridge, who did a number of other documentaries, I 0:09:28.160 --> 0:09:31.080 think another six or so. Yes, or you decided to 0:09:31.120 --> 0:09:34.680 do the epic Civil War series which took how many 0:09:34.760 --> 0:09:36.800 years to do? And how long did it take to 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:39.920 get all the work done, the research done, and how 0:09:39.920 --> 0:09:41.559 long did it take to raise the money for that? 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:43.720 You know, well, we were raising the money up until 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:47.040 the very very end, and it's just it's still it's 0:09:47.080 --> 0:09:49.120 never easy. It took us five and a half years 0:09:49.320 --> 0:09:51.120 from the moment I decided to do it, which was 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:55.840 Christmas Day, uh eight four, where I was visiting my 0:09:55.960 --> 0:10:01.000 father with my brand new daughter and my wife and I, Um, 0:10:01.040 --> 0:10:02.960 I just said, I know what my next project is. 0:10:03.040 --> 0:10:05.160 And he said what I said, the Civil War? He 0:10:05.160 --> 0:10:07.000 goes what part? And I said all of it. He 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:08.880 just shook his head and walked out of the room, 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:11.480 like my idiot son. But you know, five and a 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:14.520 half years later we came out with something which is 0:10:14.559 --> 0:10:16.920 I'd always felt even as early as the Brooklyn Bridge, 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:20.400 I said, I wasn't interested in excavating the dried dates 0:10:20.440 --> 0:10:22.760 and facts and events of the past. But the only 0:10:22.800 --> 0:10:26.600 thing that could hold that those shards together, the glue 0:10:26.640 --> 0:10:30.160 that could hold that was an emotional archaeology, not sentimentality 0:10:30.160 --> 0:10:34.520 and nostalgia, which is the enemy of good anything. Um, 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:37.880 it's it's the higher emotions our founders thought could be 0:10:37.960 --> 0:10:41.400 released if people were given a chance to govern themselves. 0:10:41.400 --> 0:10:44.520 And so we're interested in what those higher emotions are 0:10:44.559 --> 0:10:47.559 that we, you know, tend to avoid. We'd prefer things 0:10:47.640 --> 0:10:49.800 to be one and one equals to We'd prefer not 0:10:49.880 --> 0:10:52.600 to talk about the four letter word. The FCC allows 0:10:52.640 --> 0:10:56.040 me to say when talking about Muhammad Ali love um. 0:10:56.320 --> 0:10:59.720 And but yet our lives are compelled by the things 0:10:59.720 --> 0:11:02.600 were one and one equals three? Not too you know, 0:11:02.679 --> 0:11:05.840 the the art, the faith, the relationships, the love that 0:11:05.880 --> 0:11:08.480 we have for other people. And that's what I pursue 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:12.200 in my little tiny niche, my little Baileywick. All these 0:11:12.240 --> 0:11:15.520 now nearly fifty years of doing this. So people were 0:11:15.559 --> 0:11:18.960 mesmerized by it, and were you shocked at how Uh? 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:22.040 It kind of transformed culture in many ways, and people 0:11:22.080 --> 0:11:24.840 were talking about all the time. Did you anticipate that? No? No, 0:11:25.000 --> 0:11:27.160 In fact, I'd been at with a press tour and 0:11:27.200 --> 0:11:29.160 they said, Ken, this is terrific, but no one's going 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:31.920 to watch it because Steven Boco, the great TV guy, 0:11:32.040 --> 0:11:35.400 had a new police procedural that was a musical called 0:11:35.679 --> 0:11:38.880 cop Rocks, and nobody would watch this, And then everybody 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:41.720 seemed to watch it, and it had forty million viewers 0:11:41.760 --> 0:11:46.440 the first time. And you know DVD blank DVD tapes, Uh, 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:50.320 not DVD, but cassette tapes were what ran out in Washington, 0:11:50.400 --> 0:11:52.800 d C. I got invited to the White House. I 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:55.520 was on the Tonight Show, and you know, it was 0:11:55.600 --> 0:11:59.800 just it was flabbergasting. And what what was really helpful 0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:03.040 to me, David was staying here in in Walpole because 0:12:03.080 --> 0:12:06.760 the pressure also to leave again Hollywood presume that just 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:11.240 documentary was just a step rung on some career path 0:12:11.320 --> 0:12:14.320 that would inevitably lead to making feature films. And I 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:17.679 was saying, no, I like my day job and being 0:12:17.760 --> 0:12:22.680 here and insulated by the people who are sort of there. 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:25.599 I think they're proud of what I've done, but it 0:12:26.080 --> 0:12:29.160 matters what the content of my character is. Why did 0:12:29.280 --> 0:12:31.800 you not go the route of becoming the next George 0:12:31.840 --> 0:12:35.120 Lucas or Steven Spielberg, make an enormous amount of money 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:36.440 and then if you made a lot of money, go 0:12:36.520 --> 0:12:39.560 back to doing what you were doing before. Well, I 0:12:39.559 --> 0:12:42.160 I don't know. It wasn't for me. I really like 0:12:42.320 --> 0:12:46.120 the idea of public broadcasting PBS. It's public, but it's 0:12:46.160 --> 0:12:49.040 also that S is not system, it's service. I like 0:12:49.120 --> 0:12:52.960 that idea. I also think PBS has one foot tentatively 0:12:53.040 --> 0:12:55.600 in the marketplace and the other proudly out of it. 0:12:55.800 --> 0:12:59.439 Lots of what's best about this country is not necessarily 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:01.640 in the mar ketplace, which is of course one of 0:13:01.679 --> 0:13:04.120 the best things in this country as well. And so 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:06.720 it's not making the other wrong. It's just saying that 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:10.439 if I had gone to a premium channel or gone 0:13:10.480 --> 0:13:12.800 to a streaming service, it might have been easier to 0:13:12.800 --> 0:13:15.839 get the money. Um, but then they would own it. 0:13:16.200 --> 0:13:19.680 I own my films. They would also not permit me 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:21.800 ten and a half years to do the Vietnam They'd 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:23.560 want it in a couple of years, and the kind 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:26.520 of corners that would be cut in that process was 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:29.679 nothing that I wanted to do. I also was aware 0:13:29.760 --> 0:13:32.480 that even with the success of this Civil War series, 0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:35.080 people would come and ask me what I was working 0:13:35.120 --> 0:13:37.600 on from other places, and then when I'd say Baseball, 0:13:37.880 --> 0:13:40.640 they'd say, oh, great, that'll sell, you know. And then 0:13:40.679 --> 0:13:42.520 they said how long is it and I said eighteen 0:13:42.520 --> 0:13:44.760 and a half hours, and they would walk away. And 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:47.200 then after Baseball had an even bigger audience than the 0:13:47.240 --> 0:13:49.120 Civil War, they'd come to me, what are you doing 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:51.000 And I would say jazz and they go long and 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.920 I go yeah, they go no, African American stuff doesn't sell. 0:13:54.000 --> 0:13:57.480 And you just suddenly realized that sometimes you had to 0:13:57.559 --> 0:14:00.680 pick these projects, all of them base done your gut, 0:14:00.760 --> 0:14:03.800 not on a focus group, not on some marketing panel, 0:14:03.880 --> 0:14:06.640 but what you wanted to do. So how many projects 0:14:06.679 --> 0:14:08.320 do you have in the works now? Can you tell 0:14:08.360 --> 0:14:10.199 you what some of the ones are? Yeah? Yeah, I 0:14:10.240 --> 0:14:12.280 don't know why people make the stuff secret. I've just 0:14:12.559 --> 0:14:15.360 locked or finished. We're about two next week mixed the 0:14:15.440 --> 0:14:18.800 first of two episodes on a four part UH two 0:14:18.880 --> 0:14:21.400 two hours on Benjamin Franklin, born the same day as 0:14:21.480 --> 0:14:24.560 Muhammad Ali and arguably one of the most compelling figures 0:14:24.560 --> 0:14:28.240 of the eighteenth century. I've been editing all last week 0:14:28.280 --> 0:14:30.760 and all this week. As soon as we're done, we're 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:33.840 going to dive into the editing today on a history 0:14:33.840 --> 0:14:36.040 of the U S and the Holocaust. What we knew 0:14:36.080 --> 0:14:38.440 and what we didn't know, what we did and what 0:14:38.480 --> 0:14:41.200 we didn't do, and what we should have done. A 0:14:41.360 --> 0:14:45.480 very complicated story that needs to be told. We're doing 0:14:45.520 --> 0:14:49.080 a history of the buffalo, uh sort of. It's actually 0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:52.840 a biography of not an animal, but a biography the 0:14:52.840 --> 0:14:54.920 people who use the animal, the people who brought that 0:14:55.000 --> 0:14:57.520 animal to the brink of extinction, and then those very 0:14:57.560 --> 0:15:01.160 same people who nearly killed it to who brought it 0:15:01.200 --> 0:15:04.480 back from extinction. It's a parable of d extinction. I 0:15:04.480 --> 0:15:07.040 guess you might say, we're doing a massive series on 0:15:07.120 --> 0:15:10.440 the history of the American Revolution, not just fifty five 0:15:10.520 --> 0:15:13.480 white guys with powdered wigs in Philadelphia, but a very, 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:17.720 very complicated story of a bottom up story of people 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:21.120 quarter a fifth to a quarter of the country remained 0:15:21.200 --> 0:15:24.160 loyal to Great Britain. And this was a civil war. 0:15:24.360 --> 0:15:26.400 Our civil war was not a civil war. It was 0:15:26.440 --> 0:15:29.480 a sectional war, North against South. At this point in 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:33.480 your career, do you consider yourself a filmmaker, a historian, 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:37.560 an educator, or a public figure that's well known and 0:15:37.600 --> 0:15:40.440 recognized by everybody. Well, you know, the biggest thing is 0:15:40.480 --> 0:15:43.120 that I'm a filmmaker, and and that means I tell stories. 0:15:43.200 --> 0:15:45.960 And I happened to the way a painter might choose 0:15:46.000 --> 0:15:49.000 to work in oil as opposed to watercolors. I choose 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:52.880 to work in history, American history. With the exception of 0:15:52.920 --> 0:15:56.760 the upcoming Leonardo da Vinci, they've all been in in 0:15:56.760 --> 0:16:00.920 in American history, and history is convenient lea mostly made 0:16:00.960 --> 0:16:04.000 up of the word story plus high and all the 0:16:04.040 --> 0:16:07.000 other stuff that comes. I'm I'm pleased that these films 0:16:07.040 --> 0:16:10.160 live in schools, that they have an educational dimension. I'm 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:15.400 pleased that people respect the work, which means that if 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:17.400 you know who I am, it means that you've seen 0:16:17.400 --> 0:16:20.920 a film of mine, and that that means that at 0:16:21.000 --> 0:16:24.440 least these stories are reaching some group of us, as 0:16:24.480 --> 0:16:28.000 much as I want to reach every single person. Um, 0:16:28.040 --> 0:16:30.600 it's at least exciting. You know, I'm walking to New 0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:33.480 York City and uh, you know, a fireman goes by 0:16:33.480 --> 0:16:35.520 and says, hey, you're a guy that made the Civil War, 0:16:35.800 --> 0:16:38.120 or you know, somebody walks up to me to complain 0:16:38.200 --> 0:16:40.600 what I left out of baseball, which I love. Baseball 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:42.680 is eighteen and a half hours. And people, if they 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:45.640 tell you what you left out, I'm not an encyclopedia. 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:48.680 I'm not a dictionary. I'm a storyteller. You have to 0:16:48.760 --> 0:16:51.200 leave stuff out. And if they think I've left something 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:53.160 out of eighteen and a half hours, that means they 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:55.880 didn't find it boring. They just wanted the fifty nine 0:16:55.960 --> 0:16:58.640 White Sox that they happen to grow up loving, and 0:16:58.720 --> 0:17:02.600 we didn't have time or room or space, uh to do. So. 0:17:03.680 --> 0:17:07.720 I have these conversations with people all the time about 0:17:08.080 --> 0:17:10.359 who we are and what it means to be an 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:13.840 American at lots of levels and lots of different people 0:17:14.480 --> 0:17:17.360 trust us to do and I want to emphasize us, 0:17:17.680 --> 0:17:21.399 trust us to tell a complicated and truthful story. And 0:17:21.400 --> 0:17:25.800 in a time when the truth seems fungible, when we're 0:17:25.840 --> 0:17:29.359 always accusing the other of fake news, it's important to 0:17:29.400 --> 0:17:32.000 have at least a space. I think PBS provides that 0:17:32.119 --> 0:17:36.399 where you can get an accurate, balanced view of what's 0:17:36.440 --> 0:17:39.280 taken place that doesn't sugarcoat and at the same time, 0:17:39.400 --> 0:17:44.240 isn't just invested entirely in revisionism. Why should people really 0:17:44.280 --> 0:17:47.560 want to watch history about things that happened a hundred 0:17:47.640 --> 0:17:49.679 or two hundred years ago? What what relevance is it? 0:17:50.160 --> 0:17:53.480 Would you say, Well, you know, I think it's hugely relevant. 0:17:53.560 --> 0:17:56.560 History gives you that ability to have a kind of 0:17:56.600 --> 0:18:00.399 perspective to see where the precedents are. For all of 0:18:00.440 --> 0:18:04.000 the dangerous things, for example, that we find ourselves in today, 0:18:04.040 --> 0:18:07.960 there are precedents, and yet there is in its totality 0:18:08.000 --> 0:18:12.199 obviously unprecedented dangers and threats to the United States. And 0:18:12.280 --> 0:18:15.480 I think it would be incumbent upon Americans, who are 0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:19.080 often blind to their history, to understand exactly how their 0:18:19.080 --> 0:18:23.480 government works, what the Constitution is actually about, what it says, 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:25.639 what the nature of our government is. You know, we 0:18:25.640 --> 0:18:28.640 don't teach civics anymore, and a lot of the reasons 0:18:28.680 --> 0:18:32.200 we feel like we've lost a cohesion is because we've 0:18:32.200 --> 0:18:36.320 forgotten the glue that's held us together, not just in 0:18:36.359 --> 0:18:39.760 the in the patriotic ways, not just in the emotional ways, 0:18:39.960 --> 0:18:42.080 but in the very functional ways of how you get 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.119 things done. And that's what civics is. It isn't just 0:18:45.200 --> 0:18:48.760 one senators and four hundred and thirty five representatives and 0:18:48.800 --> 0:18:52.280 three branches of government. It's how human beings together get 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:55.119 things done and compromise and see that there is a 0:18:55.160 --> 0:18:59.960 shared common good and so history becomes away. It's it's 0:19:00.040 --> 0:19:02.679 table around which I think we can all have a 0:19:02.760 --> 0:19:06.360 shared discussion of what we want and how we might 0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:10.680 continue to cohere, and how we can let the better 0:19:10.720 --> 0:19:14.840 angels perhaps reassert themselves. That's that's what I'm about, and 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:17.680 I think people want that. I think the divisions are 0:19:17.960 --> 0:19:22.639 huge and massive and threatening and have exposed the fragility 0:19:22.640 --> 0:19:26.639 of our institutions, indeed our democracy and our future. But 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:30.760 I also think deep down people if they're made aware 0:19:30.840 --> 0:19:33.360 of the fact that they share common everything. I mean, 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:36.080 one of the fallacies of the Holocaust is just the 0:19:36.160 --> 0:19:39.760 myth of race of you know, biologically it doesn't exist. 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:42.640 You know, we are all the same. And I've I've 0:19:42.680 --> 0:19:44.840 said to you before, David. You know, I've made films 0:19:44.920 --> 0:19:47.879 for more than almost fifty years about the US. But 0:19:47.920 --> 0:19:50.920 I've also made films about us, that is to say, 0:19:50.960 --> 0:19:54.120 the lower case two letter plural pronoun. And so I'm 0:19:54.160 --> 0:19:58.160 I'm addressing these films to everybody, regardless of their political 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:00.520 persuasion or where they come from, are the sex, or 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:03.679 their wealth, or their race, whatever it might be. I 0:20:03.680 --> 0:20:06.400 want to reach everybody to remind them of the US, 0:20:06.440 --> 0:20:09.160 all of the intimacy of this plus all the majesty, 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:13.840 the complexity, the contradiction and the controversy of the US. 0:20:13.920 --> 0:20:17.240 It's all there. And we don't need to say, oh, 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:19.639 we got to limit our history and teach it only 0:20:19.720 --> 0:20:22.280 this way and teach only the good stuff. It's morning 0:20:22.280 --> 0:20:25.080 in America again. We need to actually have a rich 0:20:25.160 --> 0:20:28.359 history that pulls back the camera and reveals all the 0:20:28.440 --> 0:20:33.160 startling and at times yes contradictory, and not so pleasant things. 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:37.440 So many people recognize you because you have a very 0:20:37.520 --> 0:20:40.720 famous hair do that I've asked you about before. But 0:20:40.960 --> 0:20:44.320 to some people they may say, well, Ken, what happened, 0:20:44.320 --> 0:20:46.480 Where did that hair do come from? And where's it gone? 0:20:46.520 --> 0:20:48.840 Because right now it seems a little different than what 0:20:48.920 --> 0:20:51.880 I've seen before. Yeah, it's it's growing out a little bit, David. 0:20:51.920 --> 0:20:54.480 But COVID. You know, I ended up with hair going 0:20:54.600 --> 0:20:57.480 back down to my shoulder, and I finally realized that 0:20:57.560 --> 0:20:59.120 one of the things I had to do I had. 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:01.640 I'm very loyal person, and I used to have hair 0:21:01.720 --> 0:21:04.320 down to my waist in my college and my hippie 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:07.080