1 00:00:02,880 --> 00:00:05,520 Speaker 1: More than a quarter of a century ago, Ken Burns 2 00:00:05,600 --> 00:00:08,720 Speaker 1: came into the consciousness of every American with this compelling 3 00:00:08,800 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 1: nine part series in the Civil War. Since that time, 4 00:00:12,119 --> 00:00:15,320 Speaker 1: Kenneth continued to make an enormous number of documentaries about 5 00:00:15,320 --> 00:00:18,720 Speaker 1: American history. I share his love of American history, and 6 00:00:18,760 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: I've come to no Can as a friend and also 7 00:00:20,640 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 1: as a supporter, And recently I sat down with Ken 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:27,320 Speaker 1: to discuss our mutual interest about this country's history. So, Ken, 9 00:00:27,600 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: you were, I assume now in Walpole, New Hampshire, where 10 00:00:30,960 --> 00:00:33,960 Speaker 1: you do much most of your work up Walpole, New 11 00:00:34,000 --> 00:00:37,480 Speaker 1: Hampshire is not known as a media center, so I'm 12 00:00:37,479 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: just curious how come you happen to do all of 13 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:43,880 Speaker 1: your work there. Well. I moved here in nine forty 14 00:00:43,880 --> 00:00:47,480 Speaker 1: two years ago when I realized that becoming a documentary 15 00:00:47,520 --> 00:00:52,080 Speaker 1: filmmaker focusing in American history was taking a vowe of 16 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: anonymity and poverty. And though my first film was nominated 17 00:00:56,520 --> 00:00:59,240 Speaker 1: for an Oscar and everyone presumed that I would come 18 00:00:59,240 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 1: back to this it a year ago to l a. 19 00:01:01,560 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: I stayed here because of the labor intensive nature of 20 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:07,759 Speaker 1: what I do, the fact that it's all grant funded, 21 00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: philanthropic uh, projects, and that they're very time consuming. So 22 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:16,520 Speaker 1: I keep my overhead very low here. And it's quite 23 00:01:16,560 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 1: beautiful in southern New Hampshire. So I assume you're Walpaul, 24 00:01:20,720 --> 00:01:24,959 Speaker 1: New Hampshire's most famous resident. Oh gosh, I don't think so. 25 00:01:25,080 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: You know. I always thought that if my great great 26 00:01:28,440 --> 00:01:32,200 Speaker 1: great grandchildren sort of kept their heads low, they might 27 00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:35,840 Speaker 1: be able to be a member of the Volunteer Fire Department. 28 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:38,160 Speaker 1: So there's a kind of a different kind of hierarchy 29 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:41,360 Speaker 1: here where any notoriety plus fifty cents get you a 30 00:01:41,360 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: cup of coffee. Okay, So let's talk about most recent 31 00:01:45,240 --> 00:01:47,720 Speaker 1: film that you've had on television, which is a four 32 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,880 Speaker 1: part series. Oh, Muhammed Ali. Why did you decide to 33 00:01:51,200 --> 00:01:54,520 Speaker 1: focus on Muhammed Ali? What was your interest in him? Well, 34 00:01:54,520 --> 00:01:56,680 Speaker 1: he's one of the most compelling figures in all of 35 00:01:56,720 --> 00:02:00,480 Speaker 1: American history. He's certainly intersects with all the major issues 36 00:02:00,880 --> 00:02:04,280 Speaker 1: of the last half of the twentieth century. The role 37 00:02:04,320 --> 00:02:07,880 Speaker 1: of sports and society, the role of the black athlete 38 00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:11,680 Speaker 1: in sports, the definitions of black manhood and black masculinity, 39 00:02:11,760 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 1: the Civil rights movement, not as a fixed thing but 40 00:02:14,360 --> 00:02:17,120 Speaker 1: as a kind of ongoing, developing thing. It's a story 41 00:02:17,160 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: of politics, of course, of race, the central American question freedom. Um, 42 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,400 Speaker 1: it's also about faith and religion and Islam, about sex 43 00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:29,600 Speaker 1: and all of these things because human nature doesn't change, 44 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:31,640 Speaker 1: or things were grappling with today. So when you have 45 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:36,160 Speaker 1: a larger than life mythic figure like Ali, he just um, 46 00:02:36,240 --> 00:02:38,880 Speaker 1: he sort of lights up page after page of history. 47 00:02:38,880 --> 00:02:41,720 Speaker 1: He's he's in a way irresistible. In is a way 48 00:02:41,760 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: to communicate some pretty complex undertow about not just the US, 49 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,280 Speaker 1: but who we are. How long did it take you 50 00:02:49,360 --> 00:02:53,200 Speaker 1: to do that? Serious? We said yes to this, uh 51 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:58,840 Speaker 1: In we began work in real earnest. Production and shooting 52 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:02,560 Speaker 1: of most of the stuff began in sixteen, the year 53 00:03:02,600 --> 00:03:06,760 Speaker 1: that he died. Um. So you could say that it 54 00:03:06,840 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: took eight years or seven years, um. But you know, 55 00:03:10,080 --> 00:03:12,640 Speaker 1: there's fundraising involved. There are other projects that you're giving 56 00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,400 Speaker 1: your attention to at different times. What we need, though, 57 00:03:15,480 --> 00:03:17,720 Speaker 1: is that period of time in order to do the 58 00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:20,320 Speaker 1: deep dive on the research, in order to do the 59 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:24,000 Speaker 1: deep dive on the archives, and to be able to 60 00:03:24,040 --> 00:03:26,720 Speaker 1: come up and say that we think we really got him, 61 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:29,840 Speaker 1: or at least that we have materials that show the 62 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 1: kind of dynamics and the dimensions, the contradictions, um, even 63 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,920 Speaker 1: the controversy, the flaws of a character, and not have 64 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: it merely be a resuscitation of conventional wisdom. So when 65 00:03:43,280 --> 00:03:46,720 Speaker 1: Muhammad Ali, did you initially seek his approval or his 66 00:03:46,800 --> 00:03:50,840 Speaker 1: family's approval or not? No? Um, we never operate that way. 67 00:03:50,880 --> 00:03:54,000 Speaker 1: We can't operate that way in PBS because it's so 68 00:03:54,280 --> 00:03:56,720 Speaker 1: completely you know, we have to have a separation of 69 00:03:56,800 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: church and state. We did have cooperation from Emily members 70 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: in that they gave the photographs. Uh, they gave us access. 71 00:04:04,400 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 1: We were able to interview two of his ex wives, 72 00:04:06,760 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: We interviewed two of his daughters, his brother, friends, families, 73 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:13,800 Speaker 1: hangers on, scholars, you know, all of that sort of stuff, 74 00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:15,920 Speaker 1: that kind of triangulation that we want to do. Now, 75 00:04:15,920 --> 00:04:18,760 Speaker 1: we need to see boxers today, professional boxers. They seemed 76 00:04:18,760 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: awfully bulked up. They have gigantic muscles. Uh and maybe 77 00:04:22,520 --> 00:04:26,159 Speaker 1: because of stimulants they're taking, or maybe they're better training. 78 00:04:26,440 --> 00:04:29,320 Speaker 1: But he didn't seem like an overly muscular person. What 79 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,520 Speaker 1: was his strength as a as a fighter, was he 80 00:04:31,600 --> 00:04:33,760 Speaker 1: was as faster than anybody else? Or what was it 81 00:04:33,839 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: that made him such a great boxer. He wasn't because 82 00:04:35,720 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: he was so strong, was it? Well, you know, he trained, 83 00:04:38,640 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: he had he was very, very disciplined most of his life. 84 00:04:40,880 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: He usually lost when he hadn't been disciplined. And he 85 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,640 Speaker 1: did have, you know, great bulk to muscles, but not 86 00:04:46,760 --> 00:04:49,120 Speaker 1: in the kind of way that we see today. He's 87 00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:52,839 Speaker 1: so suey generous in every single way, not just personality, 88 00:04:52,880 --> 00:04:55,320 Speaker 1: but in his style of boxing. He did everything wrong. 89 00:04:55,360 --> 00:04:57,800 Speaker 1: You know, when somebody throws a punchet, you're supposed to duck. 90 00:04:58,560 --> 00:05:00,839 Speaker 1: He would lean back, which is supposed to be the 91 00:05:00,880 --> 00:05:04,480 Speaker 1: recipe for disaster. And fortunately got a good trainer, Angelo Dundee, 92 00:05:04,640 --> 00:05:07,880 Speaker 1: who realized that he was suey generous and that he 93 00:05:07,920 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 1: would have to just strengthen these things. He moved around, 94 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:13,480 Speaker 1: he was very quick, but he you know, he's an 95 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:16,040 Speaker 1: amazing boxer. I made a film on Jack Johnson, the 96 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 1: first African American heavyweight champion UM back in the first 97 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: decade of the twentieth century, and they share similar traits. 98 00:05:24,240 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: The difference was is that Jack Johnson was just for 99 00:05:27,480 --> 00:05:30,839 Speaker 1: himself and Muhammad Ali seemed to be for everybody. He 100 00:05:30,880 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: seemed to want to carry everybody with him and to 101 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:36,480 Speaker 1: love everybody. I mean, I think in the end, David, 102 00:05:36,520 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: it's a hard thing to talk about. This is a 103 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: film about freedom, which is a classic American theme. It's 104 00:05:41,000 --> 00:05:43,240 Speaker 1: about courage, which is also true not just in the 105 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,039 Speaker 1: ring but in the kind of stance, particularly with Vietnam, 106 00:05:46,160 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: but also about love. I mean, this guy dies five 107 00:05:48,560 --> 00:05:53,040 Speaker 1: years ago, the most beloved and known person on the planet. 108 00:05:53,440 --> 00:05:58,719 Speaker 1: Something happened from that reviled, hated person refusing the draft 109 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 1: to then and ats. That's a pretty interesting story that 110 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:05,360 Speaker 1: in many ways doesn't have anything to do with with boxing. 111 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 1: So let's go back to how you became a documentary filmmaker. Um. 112 00:06:10,000 --> 00:06:12,800 Speaker 1: Everybody who wants to be a documentary filmmaker now wants 113 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:15,560 Speaker 1: to be Ken Burns. Um. I don't know who your 114 00:06:15,640 --> 00:06:18,400 Speaker 1: role model was when you were starting out. But did 115 00:06:18,440 --> 00:06:20,359 Speaker 1: you grow up and say I don't want to be 116 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:22,400 Speaker 1: in private equity, I don't want to be in hedge funds? 117 00:06:22,480 --> 00:06:25,200 Speaker 1: Things important like that? You said I wanted to be 118 00:06:25,240 --> 00:06:28,640 Speaker 1: a documentary filmmaker. What propelled propelled you towards that? And 119 00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: where did you grow up? I I grew up the 120 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:36,000 Speaker 1: son of an anthropologist and biologist mother who died very 121 00:06:36,000 --> 00:06:38,560 Speaker 1: young of cancer of a tenure battle of cancer when 122 00:06:38,560 --> 00:06:41,080 Speaker 1: I was eleven. I remember after my mom died, I 123 00:06:41,080 --> 00:06:43,359 Speaker 1: saw my dad cry for the first time, and he 124 00:06:43,400 --> 00:06:45,520 Speaker 1: cried at a movie, and I said, that's it. I 125 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,159 Speaker 1: want to become a MovieMaker, and that at that point 126 00:06:48,200 --> 00:06:51,240 Speaker 1: that meant Alfred Hitchcock or John Ford or Howard Hawks, 127 00:06:51,360 --> 00:06:54,160 Speaker 1: big name directors of the sixties. But I ended up 128 00:06:54,200 --> 00:06:58,040 Speaker 1: going to Hampshire College, new brand new experimental school that 129 00:06:58,160 --> 00:06:59,840 Speaker 1: opened in the fall of seventy I went in the 130 00:07:00,200 --> 00:07:03,200 Speaker 1: fall of seventy one, and all of my teachers there 131 00:07:03,240 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: were social documentaries, still photographers and filmmakers who reminded me 132 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: quite correctly, that there is as much, if not more 133 00:07:10,600 --> 00:07:13,480 Speaker 1: drama in what is in what was of any than 134 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:16,720 Speaker 1: anything the human imagination can dream up. And often the 135 00:07:16,760 --> 00:07:21,400 Speaker 1: human imagination dreams up things based on historical fact or 136 00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:25,320 Speaker 1: the impossibilities of historical stories, as you know as well. 137 00:07:25,400 --> 00:07:28,600 Speaker 1: So I emerged a documentary filmmaker and had the kind 138 00:07:28,640 --> 00:07:32,480 Speaker 1: of Hampshire inspired hoods. But to just decide that I 139 00:07:32,520 --> 00:07:35,000 Speaker 1: would just not go to New York and apprentice, I'd 140 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,559 Speaker 1: start my own company, Florentine Films. The first film we made, 141 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:40,720 Speaker 1: which took five and a half years to make because 142 00:07:40,760 --> 00:07:42,840 Speaker 1: I looked like I was twelve years old and I 143 00:07:42,880 --> 00:07:44,840 Speaker 1: was trying to sell people the Brooklyn Bridge. On the 144 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:47,960 Speaker 1: Story of the Brooklyn Bridge was nominated for an Academy Award. 145 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:52,480 Speaker 1: And it was in that space that I moved from AMers, Massachusetts, 146 00:07:52,480 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: where Hampshire was, to uh, New York, and then up 147 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,000 Speaker 1: here to Walpole, New Hampshire, where all the films have been, 148 00:07:58,200 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: if not physically made, then erected. From up here was 149 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:04,040 Speaker 1: it easy to raise money for the Brooklyn Bridge. And 150 00:08:04,440 --> 00:08:06,680 Speaker 1: people say, you're trying to sell me the brooklyn Bridge 151 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,520 Speaker 1: all the time, David in fact, and it was the 152 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: baby face. I mean, I'm sixty eight now, and I 153 00:08:12,040 --> 00:08:14,320 Speaker 1: actually know that I don't look like i'm sixty eight, 154 00:08:14,400 --> 00:08:16,720 Speaker 1: and uh, you can imagine what I look like at 155 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,120 Speaker 1: at at twenty three and twenty four when I was 156 00:08:20,160 --> 00:08:24,400 Speaker 1: beginning to work on it. So they would say, this 157 00:08:24,480 --> 00:08:26,240 Speaker 1: child is trying to sell me the Brooklyn Bridge. And 158 00:08:26,280 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: for a long while I had to three ring binders 159 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,760 Speaker 1: on my desk, you know, each those three four inch wide, 160 00:08:33,120 --> 00:08:36,440 Speaker 1: big expandable affairs with all the letters of rejection, which 161 00:08:36,480 --> 00:08:39,600 Speaker 1: I kept for you know, a decade on my desk, 162 00:08:39,720 --> 00:08:42,599 Speaker 1: just to remind me of just how incredibly hard and 163 00:08:42,679 --> 00:08:46,360 Speaker 1: it's still hard, uh to to raise the money to 164 00:08:46,440 --> 00:08:49,880 Speaker 1: do these things. But the independence is is worth it, 165 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:53,960 Speaker 1: the idea of being able to present to you a 166 00:08:54,000 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: film on Muhammad Ali that I'm not apologizing for. It's 167 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:00,000 Speaker 1: a director's cut, and if you don't like it, it's 168 00:09:00,080 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 1: all my fault, you know what I mean. And I 169 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:05,600 Speaker 1: don't want to not say, oh, the executive producer wouldn't 170 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: let me hire this person or this the budget didn't 171 00:09:08,040 --> 00:09:10,360 Speaker 1: allow me to do that thing. You know. It's just 172 00:09:11,200 --> 00:09:13,160 Speaker 1: we get to do it in the time it takes 173 00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:15,200 Speaker 1: to do it. However, long ten and a half years 174 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:18,280 Speaker 1: for the Vietnam War, six or seven for this one 175 00:09:18,520 --> 00:09:21,680 Speaker 1: on on all e um some of them are the 176 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,200 Speaker 1: National Parks was a ten year project. So after the 177 00:09:25,200 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: Brooklyn Bridge, who did a number of other documentaries, I 178 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,080 Speaker 1: think another six or so. Yes, or you decided to 179 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,680 Speaker 1: do the epic Civil War series which took how many 180 00:09:34,760 --> 00:09:36,800 Speaker 1: years to do? And how long did it take to 181 00:09:37,520 --> 00:09:39,920 Speaker 1: get all the work done, the research done, and how 182 00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:41,559 Speaker 1: long did it take to raise the money for that? 183 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:43,720 Speaker 1: You know, well, we were raising the money up until 184 00:09:43,760 --> 00:09:47,040 Speaker 1: the very very end, and it's just it's still it's 185 00:09:47,080 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: never easy. It took us five and a half years 186 00:09:49,320 --> 00:09:51,120 Speaker 1: from the moment I decided to do it, which was 187 00:09:51,200 --> 00:09:55,840 Speaker 1: Christmas Day, uh eight four, where I was visiting my 188 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:01,000 Speaker 1: father with my brand new daughter and my wife and I, Um, 189 00:10:01,040 --> 00:10:02,960 Speaker 1: I just said, I know what my next project is. 190 00:10:03,040 --> 00:10:05,160 Speaker 1: And he said what I said, the Civil War? He 191 00:10:05,160 --> 00:10:07,000 Speaker 1: goes what part? And I said all of it. He 192 00:10:07,120 --> 00:10:08,880 Speaker 1: just shook his head and walked out of the room, 193 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 1: like my idiot son. But you know, five and a 194 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:14,520 Speaker 1: half years later we came out with something which is 195 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:16,920 Speaker 1: I'd always felt even as early as the Brooklyn Bridge, 196 00:10:16,960 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: I said, I wasn't interested in excavating the dried dates 197 00:10:20,440 --> 00:10:22,760 Speaker 1: and facts and events of the past. But the only 198 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:26,600 Speaker 1: thing that could hold that those shards together, the glue 199 00:10:26,640 --> 00:10:30,160 Speaker 1: that could hold that was an emotional archaeology, not sentimentality 200 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: and nostalgia, which is the enemy of good anything. Um, 201 00:10:34,559 --> 00:10:37,880 Speaker 1: it's it's the higher emotions our founders thought could be 202 00:10:37,960 --> 00:10:41,400 Speaker 1: released if people were given a chance to govern themselves. 203 00:10:41,400 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: And so we're interested in what those higher emotions are 204 00:10:44,559 --> 00:10:47,559 Speaker 1: that we, you know, tend to avoid. We'd prefer things 205 00:10:47,640 --> 00:10:49,800 Speaker 1: to be one and one equals to We'd prefer not 206 00:10:49,880 --> 00:10:52,600 Speaker 1: to talk about the four letter word. The FCC allows 207 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,040 Speaker 1: me to say when talking about Muhammad Ali love um. 208 00:10:56,320 --> 00:10:59,720 Speaker 1: And but yet our lives are compelled by the things 209 00:10:59,720 --> 00:11:02,600 Speaker 1: were one and one equals three? Not too you know, 210 00:11:02,679 --> 00:11:05,840 Speaker 1: the the art, the faith, the relationships, the love that 211 00:11:05,880 --> 00:11:08,480 Speaker 1: we have for other people. And that's what I pursue 212 00:11:08,520 --> 00:11:12,200 Speaker 1: in my little tiny niche, my little Baileywick. All these 213 00:11:12,240 --> 00:11:15,520 Speaker 1: now nearly fifty years of doing this. So people were 214 00:11:15,559 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: mesmerized by it, and were you shocked at how Uh? 215 00:11:19,120 --> 00:11:22,040 Speaker 1: It kind of transformed culture in many ways, and people 216 00:11:22,080 --> 00:11:24,840 Speaker 1: were talking about all the time. Did you anticipate that? No? No, 217 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:27,160 Speaker 1: In fact, I'd been at with a press tour and 218 00:11:27,200 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 1: they said, Ken, this is terrific, but no one's going 219 00:11:29,200 --> 00:11:31,920 Speaker 1: to watch it because Steven Boco, the great TV guy, 220 00:11:32,040 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: had a new police procedural that was a musical called 221 00:11:35,679 --> 00:11:38,880 Speaker 1: cop Rocks, and nobody would watch this, And then everybody 222 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: seemed to watch it, and it had forty million viewers 223 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:46,440 Speaker 1: the first time. And you know DVD blank DVD tapes, Uh, 224 00:11:46,520 --> 00:11:50,320 Speaker 1: not DVD, but cassette tapes were what ran out in Washington, 225 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:52,800 Speaker 1: d C. I got invited to the White House. I 226 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: was on the Tonight Show, and you know, it was 227 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:59,800 Speaker 1: just it was flabbergasting. And what what was really helpful 228 00:11:59,840 --> 00:12:03,040 Speaker 1: to me, David was staying here in in Walpole because 229 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,760 Speaker 1: the pressure also to leave again Hollywood presume that just 230 00:12:06,880 --> 00:12:11,240 Speaker 1: documentary was just a step rung on some career path 231 00:12:11,320 --> 00:12:14,320 Speaker 1: that would inevitably lead to making feature films. And I 232 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,679 Speaker 1: was saying, no, I like my day job and being 233 00:12:17,760 --> 00:12:22,680 Speaker 1: here and insulated by the people who are sort of there. 234 00:12:23,000 --> 00:12:25,599 Speaker 1: I think they're proud of what I've done, but it 235 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 1: matters what the content of my character is. Why did 236 00:12:29,280 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 1: you not go the route of becoming the next George 237 00:12:31,840 --> 00:12:35,120 Speaker 1: Lucas or Steven Spielberg, make an enormous amount of money 238 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:36,440 Speaker 1: and then if you made a lot of money, go 239 00:12:36,520 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 1: back to doing what you were doing before. Well, I 240 00:12:39,559 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: I don't know. It wasn't for me. I really like 241 00:12:42,320 --> 00:12:46,120 Speaker 1: the idea of public broadcasting PBS. It's public, but it's 242 00:12:46,160 --> 00:12:49,040 Speaker 1: also that S is not system, it's service. I like 243 00:12:49,120 --> 00:12:52,960 Speaker 1: that idea. I also think PBS has one foot tentatively 244 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,600 Speaker 1: in the marketplace and the other proudly out of it. 245 00:12:55,800 --> 00:12:59,439 Speaker 1: Lots of what's best about this country is not necessarily 246 00:12:59,559 --> 00:13:01,640 Speaker 1: in the mar ketplace, which is of course one of 247 00:13:01,679 --> 00:13:04,120 Speaker 1: the best things in this country as well. And so 248 00:13:04,200 --> 00:13:06,720 Speaker 1: it's not making the other wrong. It's just saying that 249 00:13:07,080 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 1: if I had gone to a premium channel or gone 250 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:12,800 Speaker 1: to a streaming service, it might have been easier to 251 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:15,839 Speaker 1: get the money. Um, but then they would own it. 252 00:13:16,200 --> 00:13:19,680 Speaker 1: I own my films. They would also not permit me 253 00:13:19,760 --> 00:13:21,800 Speaker 1: ten and a half years to do the Vietnam They'd 254 00:13:21,800 --> 00:13:23,560 Speaker 1: want it in a couple of years, and the kind 255 00:13:23,559 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: of corners that would be cut in that process was 256 00:13:26,640 --> 00:13:29,679 Speaker 1: nothing that I wanted to do. I also was aware 257 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:32,480 Speaker 1: that even with the success of this Civil War series, 258 00:13:32,480 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: people would come and ask me what I was working 259 00:13:35,120 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 1: on from other places, and then when I'd say Baseball, 260 00:13:37,880 --> 00:13:40,640 Speaker 1: they'd say, oh, great, that'll sell, you know. And then 261 00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: they said how long is it and I said eighteen 262 00:13:42,520 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: and a half hours, and they would walk away. And 263 00:13:44,800 --> 00:13:47,200 Speaker 1: then after Baseball had an even bigger audience than the 264 00:13:47,240 --> 00:13:49,120 Speaker 1: Civil War, they'd come to me, what are you doing 265 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,000 Speaker 1: And I would say jazz and they go long and 266 00:13:51,000 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: I go yeah, they go no, African American stuff doesn't sell. 267 00:13:54,000 --> 00:13:57,480 Speaker 1: And you just suddenly realized that sometimes you had to 268 00:13:57,559 --> 00:14:00,680 Speaker 1: pick these projects, all of them base done your gut, 269 00:14:00,760 --> 00:14:03,800 Speaker 1: not on a focus group, not on some marketing panel, 270 00:14:03,880 --> 00:14:06,640 Speaker 1: but what you wanted to do. So how many projects 271 00:14:06,679 --> 00:14:08,320 Speaker 1: do you have in the works now? Can you tell 272 00:14:08,360 --> 00:14:10,199 Speaker 1: you what some of the ones are? Yeah? Yeah, I 273 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:12,280 Speaker 1: don't know why people make the stuff secret. I've just 274 00:14:12,559 --> 00:14:15,360 Speaker 1: locked or finished. We're about two next week mixed the 275 00:14:15,440 --> 00:14:18,800 Speaker 1: first of two episodes on a four part UH two 276 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: two hours on Benjamin Franklin, born the same day as 277 00:14:21,480 --> 00:14:24,560 Speaker 1: Muhammad Ali and arguably one of the most compelling figures 278 00:14:24,560 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 1: of the eighteenth century. I've been editing all last week 279 00:14:28,280 --> 00:14:30,760 Speaker 1: and all this week. As soon as we're done, we're 280 00:14:30,760 --> 00:14:33,840 Speaker 1: going to dive into the editing today on a history 281 00:14:33,840 --> 00:14:36,040 Speaker 1: of the U S and the Holocaust. What we knew 282 00:14:36,080 --> 00:14:38,440 Speaker 1: and what we didn't know, what we did and what 283 00:14:38,480 --> 00:14:41,200 Speaker 1: we didn't do, and what we should have done. A 284 00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:45,480 Speaker 1: very complicated story that needs to be told. We're doing 285 00:14:45,520 --> 00:14:49,080 Speaker 1: a history of the buffalo, uh sort of. It's actually 286 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:52,840 Speaker 1: a biography of not an animal, but a biography the 287 00:14:52,840 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 1: people who use the animal, the people who brought that 288 00:14:55,000 --> 00:14:57,520 Speaker 1: animal to the brink of extinction, and then those very 289 00:14:57,560 --> 00:15:01,160 Speaker 1: same people who nearly killed it to who brought it 290 00:15:01,200 --> 00:15:04,480 Speaker 1: back from extinction. It's a parable of d extinction. I 291 00:15:04,480 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 1: guess you might say, we're doing a massive series on 292 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,440 Speaker 1: the history of the American Revolution, not just fifty five 293 00:15:10,520 --> 00:15:13,480 Speaker 1: white guys with powdered wigs in Philadelphia, but a very, 294 00:15:13,720 --> 00:15:17,720 Speaker 1: very complicated story of a bottom up story of people 295 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:21,120 Speaker 1: quarter a fifth to a quarter of the country remained 296 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:24,160 Speaker 1: loyal to Great Britain. And this was a civil war. 297 00:15:24,360 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: Our civil war was not a civil war. It was 298 00:15:26,440 --> 00:15:29,480 Speaker 1: a sectional war, North against South. At this point in 299 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: your career, do you consider yourself a filmmaker, a historian, 300 00:15:33,800 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 1: an educator, or a public figure that's well known and 301 00:15:37,600 --> 00:15:40,440 Speaker 1: recognized by everybody. Well, you know, the biggest thing is 302 00:15:40,480 --> 00:15:43,120 Speaker 1: that I'm a filmmaker, and and that means I tell stories. 303 00:15:43,200 --> 00:15:45,960 Speaker 1: And I happened to the way a painter might choose 304 00:15:46,000 --> 00:15:49,000 Speaker 1: to work in oil as opposed to watercolors. I choose 305 00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 1: to work in history, American history. With the exception of 306 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: the upcoming Leonardo da Vinci, they've all been in in 307 00:15:56,760 --> 00:16:00,920 Speaker 1: in American history, and history is convenient lea mostly made 308 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: up of the word story plus high and all the 309 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: other stuff that comes. I'm I'm pleased that these films 310 00:16:07,040 --> 00:16:10,160 Speaker 1: live in schools, that they have an educational dimension. I'm 311 00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:15,400 Speaker 1: pleased that people respect the work, which means that if 312 00:16:15,440 --> 00:16:17,400 Speaker 1: you know who I am, it means that you've seen 313 00:16:17,400 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: a film of mine, and that that means that at 314 00:16:21,000 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 1: least these stories are reaching some group of us, as 315 00:16:24,480 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: much as I want to reach every single person. Um, 316 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,600 Speaker 1: it's at least exciting. You know, I'm walking to New 317 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: York City and uh, you know, a fireman goes by 318 00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:35,520 Speaker 1: and says, hey, you're a guy that made the Civil War, 319 00:16:35,800 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 1: or you know, somebody walks up to me to complain 320 00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:40,600 Speaker 1: what I left out of baseball, which I love. Baseball 321 00:16:40,680 --> 00:16:42,680 Speaker 1: is eighteen and a half hours. And people, if they 322 00:16:42,680 --> 00:16:45,640 Speaker 1: tell you what you left out, I'm not an encyclopedia. 323 00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,680 Speaker 1: I'm not a dictionary. I'm a storyteller. You have to 324 00:16:48,760 --> 00:16:51,200 Speaker 1: leave stuff out. And if they think I've left something 325 00:16:51,200 --> 00:16:53,160 Speaker 1: out of eighteen and a half hours, that means they 326 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:55,880 Speaker 1: didn't find it boring. They just wanted the fifty nine 327 00:16:55,960 --> 00:16:58,640 Speaker 1: White Sox that they happen to grow up loving, and 328 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,600 Speaker 1: we didn't have time or room or space, uh to do. So. 329 00:17:03,680 --> 00:17:07,720 Speaker 1: I have these conversations with people all the time about 330 00:17:08,080 --> 00:17:10,359 Speaker 1: who we are and what it means to be an 331 00:17:10,400 --> 00:17:13,840 Speaker 1: American at lots of levels and lots of different people 332 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:17,360 Speaker 1: trust us to do and I want to emphasize us, 333 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,399 Speaker 1: trust us to tell a complicated and truthful story. And 334 00:17:21,400 --> 00:17:25,800 Speaker 1: in a time when the truth seems fungible, when we're 335 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: always accusing the other of fake news, it's important to 336 00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,000 Speaker 1: have at least a space. I think PBS provides that 337 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:36,399 Speaker 1: where you can get an accurate, balanced view of what's 338 00:17:36,440 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: taken place that doesn't sugarcoat and at the same time, 339 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:44,240 Speaker 1: isn't just invested entirely in revisionism. Why should people really 340 00:17:44,280 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: want to watch history about things that happened a hundred 341 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:49,679 Speaker 1: or two hundred years ago? What what relevance is it? 342 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:53,480 Speaker 1: Would you say, Well, you know, I think it's hugely relevant. 343 00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,560 Speaker 1: History gives you that ability to have a kind of 344 00:17:56,600 --> 00:18:00,399 Speaker 1: perspective to see where the precedents are. For all of 345 00:18:00,440 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: the dangerous things, for example, that we find ourselves in today, 346 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 1: there are precedents, and yet there is in its totality 347 00:18:08,000 --> 00:18:12,199 Speaker 1: obviously unprecedented dangers and threats to the United States. And 348 00:18:12,280 --> 00:18:15,480 Speaker 1: I think it would be incumbent upon Americans, who are 349 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,080 Speaker 1: often blind to their history, to understand exactly how their 350 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:23,480 Speaker 1: government works, what the Constitution is actually about, what it says, 351 00:18:23,520 --> 00:18:25,639 Speaker 1: what the nature of our government is. You know, we 352 00:18:25,640 --> 00:18:28,640 Speaker 1: don't teach civics anymore, and a lot of the reasons 353 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:32,200 Speaker 1: we feel like we've lost a cohesion is because we've 354 00:18:32,200 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: forgotten the glue that's held us together, not just in 355 00:18:36,359 --> 00:18:39,760 Speaker 1: the in the patriotic ways, not just in the emotional ways, 356 00:18:39,960 --> 00:18:42,080 Speaker 1: but in the very functional ways of how you get 357 00:18:42,119 --> 00:18:45,119 Speaker 1: things done. And that's what civics is. It isn't just 358 00:18:45,200 --> 00:18:48,760 Speaker 1: one senators and four hundred and thirty five representatives and 359 00:18:48,800 --> 00:18:52,280 Speaker 1: three branches of government. It's how human beings together get 360 00:18:52,280 --> 00:18:55,119 Speaker 1: things done and compromise and see that there is a 361 00:18:55,160 --> 00:18:59,960 Speaker 1: shared common good and so history becomes away. It's it's 362 00:19:00,040 --> 00:19:02,679 Speaker 1: table around which I think we can all have a 363 00:19:02,760 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 1: shared discussion of what we want and how we might 364 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,680 Speaker 1: continue to cohere, and how we can let the better 365 00:19:10,720 --> 00:19:14,840 Speaker 1: angels perhaps reassert themselves. That's that's what I'm about, and 366 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 1: I think people want that. I think the divisions are 367 00:19:17,960 --> 00:19:22,639 Speaker 1: huge and massive and threatening and have exposed the fragility 368 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,639 Speaker 1: of our institutions, indeed our democracy and our future. But 369 00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: I also think deep down people if they're made aware 370 00:19:30,840 --> 00:19:33,360 Speaker 1: of the fact that they share common everything. I mean, 371 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,080 Speaker 1: one of the fallacies of the Holocaust is just the 372 00:19:36,160 --> 00:19:39,760 Speaker 1: myth of race of you know, biologically it doesn't exist. 373 00:19:39,800 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 1: You know, we are all the same. And I've I've 374 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: said to you before, David. You know, I've made films 375 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: for more than almost fifty years about the US. But 376 00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:50,920 Speaker 1: I've also made films about us, that is to say, 377 00:19:50,960 --> 00:19:54,120 Speaker 1: the lower case two letter plural pronoun. And so I'm 378 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:58,160 Speaker 1: I'm addressing these films to everybody, regardless of their political 379 00:19:58,240 --> 00:20:00,520 Speaker 1: persuasion or where they come from, are the sex, or 380 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:03,679 Speaker 1: their wealth, or their race, whatever it might be. I 381 00:20:03,680 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: want to reach everybody to remind them of the US, 382 00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:09,160 Speaker 1: all of the intimacy of this plus all the majesty, 383 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: the complexity, the contradiction and the controversy of the US. 384 00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:17,240 Speaker 1: It's all there. And we don't need to say, oh, 385 00:20:17,359 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: we got to limit our history and teach it only 386 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:22,280 Speaker 1: this way and teach only the good stuff. It's morning 387 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:25,080 Speaker 1: in America again. We need to actually have a rich 388 00:20:25,160 --> 00:20:28,359 Speaker 1: history that pulls back the camera and reveals all the 389 00:20:28,440 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 1: startling and at times yes contradictory, and not so pleasant things. 390 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:37,440 Speaker 1: So many people recognize you because you have a very 391 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:40,720 Speaker 1: famous hair do that I've asked you about before. But 392 00:20:40,960 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: to some people they may say, well, Ken, what happened, 393 00:20:44,320 --> 00:20:46,480 Speaker 1: Where did that hair do come from? And where's it gone? 394 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:48,840 Speaker 1: Because right now it seems a little different than what 395 00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:51,880 Speaker 1: I've seen before. Yeah, it's it's growing out a little bit, David. 396 00:20:51,920 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: But COVID. You know, I ended up with hair going 397 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,480 Speaker 1: back down to my shoulder, and I finally realized that 398 00:20:57,560 --> 00:20:59,120 Speaker 1: one of the things I had to do I had. 399 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:01,640 Speaker 1: I'm very loyal person, and I used to have hair 400 00:21:01,720 --> 00:21:04,320 Speaker 1: down to my waist in my college and my hippie 401 00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:07,080 Speaker 1: days before that in an arbor, Michigan, and I had 402 00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: it cut off in the summer of seventy five. And 403 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:13,240 Speaker 1: I've gone to the same person now, a grandmother many 404 00:21:13,280 --> 00:21:18,000 Speaker 1: times over, who was a young gal cutting hair in AMers, Massachusetts, 405 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: and I still seek her out. And I finally just 406 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:22,040 Speaker 1: said to her, you know, COVID is enough of a 407 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:24,600 Speaker 1: change that I ought to be able to do something new, 408 00:21:24,680 --> 00:21:27,520 Speaker 1: So I'm ending up with shorter hair. Tom Brokaw, who's 409 00:21:27,520 --> 00:21:30,000 Speaker 1: been a mentor as well, when I turned sixty eight 410 00:21:30,040 --> 00:21:33,600 Speaker 1: years ago, said, you know, time for a big boy haircut, 411 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,200 Speaker 1: and I said, oh wait, I thought you said seventy, 412 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: and so now I guess you know two years shorter 413 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,560 Speaker 1: of seventy, I'm getting a big boy haircut. Well, can 414 00:21:42,600 --> 00:21:44,719 Speaker 1: I want to thank you for a very interesting conversation. 415 00:21:44,720 --> 00:21:47,120 Speaker 1: You may not realize that your dog was in part 416 00:21:47,160 --> 00:21:50,720 Speaker 1: of the conversation. This is my executive producer. You know 417 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:53,040 Speaker 1: what they say in Washington, and I think it applies 418 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:56,040 Speaker 1: to filmmaking too. If you want a friend, get a dog. 419 00:21:56,080 --> 00:21:58,840 Speaker 1: And that's Chester, who I call my executive producer. He's 420 00:21:58,880 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: never barked once. And every once in a while he 421 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:05,199 Speaker 1: will pass through. Either he's heard this stuff before or 422 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:07,840 Speaker 1: he's sick of hearing my voice or something. But he's 423 00:22:07,840 --> 00:22:11,560 Speaker 1: curled up over there and and and and is happily 424 00:22:11,840 --> 00:22:15,199 Speaker 1: snoozing away because I've put him to sleep. Thanks for 425 00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:18,119 Speaker 1: listening to hear more of my interviews. You can subscribe 426 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:22,359 Speaker 1: and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or wherever you listen.