WEBVTT - why are predator drones flying over LA? 0:00:09.280 --> 0:00:13.360 Okay, so this episode is partially about protests, but not 0:00:13.400 --> 0:00:17.240 necessarily a specific one. It's not really about Trump's military 0:00:17.280 --> 0:00:20.520 parade on Saturday, or the No King's protest and response 0:00:20.560 --> 0:00:23.159 to that. It's not about the ice raids or the 0:00:23.200 --> 0:00:25.400 protests that have been going on in response to that 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:28.320 for almost two weeks at this point. I'm sure you've 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:31.560 seen all that online. But just to start us off, 0:00:31.960 --> 0:00:34.320 i live in Los Angeles where some of the biggest 0:00:34.320 --> 0:00:37.479 protests have been happening, and I've been out every day 0:00:37.520 --> 0:00:40.720 with my camera covering the protests. Most of the time, 0:00:40.840 --> 0:00:45.559 it's pretty calm and peaceful. Despite that, law enforcement presence 0:00:45.600 --> 0:00:49.159 has been massive, and it's not just the LAPD. The 0:00:49.280 --> 0:00:53.240 National Guard is here and so are the Marines. Officials 0:00:53.320 --> 0:00:56.200 estimated that this deployment would cost one hundred and thirty 0:00:56.240 --> 0:01:09.039 four million dollars. It does get hectic. I've seen tear 0:01:09.040 --> 0:01:12.760 gas canisters launched a protesters' heads. I've seen police horses 0:01:12.800 --> 0:01:16.600 nearly trample multiple people, and an unhoused person who didn't 0:01:16.640 --> 0:01:19.479 seem to understand what was even going on being beaten 0:01:19.560 --> 0:01:21.639 up with a baton. And that was in the space 0:01:21.680 --> 0:01:25.039 of half an hour on Saturday. Afternoon. This stuff is 0:01:25.200 --> 0:01:28.679 usually aimed at protesters, but journalists are not exempt from 0:01:28.680 --> 0:01:31.640 being pushed, having tear gas thrown at him, or even 0:01:31.680 --> 0:01:34.160 being shot at with one of those less lethal rounds. 0:01:34.720 --> 0:01:36.920 I can confirm that because I've been hit by one 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:41.679 of those rounds twice. But again, this episode isn't about 0:01:41.720 --> 0:01:45.319 me or journalists in general. It's also not even really 0:01:45.319 --> 0:01:48.920 about the protesters. It's about the tools that are being 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:52.080 used to watch all of them, and about surveillance and 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.080 protests in general, and a trend that we're starting to 0:01:55.080 --> 0:01:58.680 see take shape. If you're listening to this in June 0:01:58.680 --> 0:02:01.160 of twenty twenty five, the things you're about to hear 0:02:01.160 --> 0:02:04.560 in this episode might sound concerning to you. If you're 0:02:04.560 --> 0:02:08.080 listening after that, all this might just sound kind of quaint. 0:02:09.000 --> 0:02:10.280 But let's get into it. 0:02:10.560 --> 0:02:11.359 I'm time. 0:02:25.360 --> 0:02:30.519 From Kaleidoscope and iHeart podcasts. This is kill Switch. I'm 0:02:30.560 --> 0:02:41.799 Dexter Thomas. Goodbye. On Tuesday, June tenth, Joseph Cox over 0:02:41.800 --> 0:02:44.880 at four or four Media noticed something weird going on 0:02:44.919 --> 0:02:46.720 in the flight data over LA. 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:52.080 When the protests started over the weekend. I did what 0:02:52.200 --> 0:02:55.440 I often do when there's a protest or some sort 0:02:55.440 --> 0:02:59.360 of large event is I go and check flight data 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:06.880 to adsb exchange dot com. It's a website where volunteers 0:03:07.120 --> 0:03:11.880 they run basically little sensors that can detect flight traffic. 0:03:12.320 --> 0:03:15.640 The website then makes this freely available. But what I 0:03:15.720 --> 0:03:18.120 usually do is I go and I start seeing what 0:03:18.280 --> 0:03:22.320 aircraft are in the sky above this protest or this event. 0:03:22.400 --> 0:03:25.600 And in this case, the skies were busy. There was 0:03:25.639 --> 0:03:27.440 a lot going on up there. 0:03:27.639 --> 0:03:30.400 Zerre one traffic couble clock one droll ma ab direction, 0:03:30.480 --> 0:03:36.000 another Troy Q nine to two drum seven three traffic 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:39.600 cover clock eight miles the direction, another Troy nine two 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:40.160 three drunk. 0:03:40.880 --> 0:03:42.960 I'm sure people on the ground would have noticed this 0:03:43.000 --> 0:03:45.560 as well, But there were aircraft up there that you 0:03:45.600 --> 0:03:47.839 would have heard, would have seen, and then I think 0:03:47.920 --> 0:03:50.640 many others do you may not have even noticed as well. 0:03:50.880 --> 0:03:55.320 So there are sort of two suspicious flight paths. The 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:58.800 first time, I was doing circles and I followed where 0:03:58.840 --> 0:04:02.120 it took off, and it took off and eventually landed 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:06.320 from March Air Reserve Base, which is to the east 0:04:06.600 --> 0:04:09.640 of LA. We don't fully actually know what that flight is. 0:04:09.720 --> 0:04:13.720 I think it's a larger DHS plane. I haven't fully 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:16.160 verified that. But the other one which we have verified 0:04:16.360 --> 0:04:19.320 is that there were these other really interesting flight patterns 0:04:19.720 --> 0:04:22.600 above downtown LA and Paramount, but they were in this 0:04:22.839 --> 0:04:29.200 very distinctive hexagonal pattern and it was a much higher altitude. 0:04:29.279 --> 0:04:32.080 It was like over ten thousand feet something like that. 0:04:32.480 --> 0:04:35.440 There's something in the sky at around ten thousand feet 0:04:35.680 --> 0:04:38.240 flying these hexagonal patterns. Doesn't have a call sign. 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:40.880 What is a call sign? Why would you expect a 0:04:40.880 --> 0:04:42.720 call sign from an aircraft? 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:46.040 I'll try my best because I'm definitely on an aviation expert, okay, 0:04:46.080 --> 0:04:50.279 but I am incredibly interested in it journalistically. So a 0:04:50.360 --> 0:04:55.440 col sign is basically unique code and aircraft is going 0:04:55.480 --> 0:05:00.159 to broadcast, be assigned so it can identify itself of 0:05:00.560 --> 0:05:03.359 two other planes and to air traffic control. So to 0:05:03.400 --> 0:05:06.719 be able to effectively organize air traffic, you need to 0:05:06.760 --> 0:05:10.360 know which plane is which. You'll have Delta flight seven 0:05:10.400 --> 0:05:12.160 oh two or whatever, and obviously that's going to be 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:14.920 a Delta one the DHS call sign or one that 0:05:14.920 --> 0:05:19.720 they often uses Troy Troo y. So this is how 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:22.920 planes identify themselves and how ATC can manage them. If 0:05:22.920 --> 0:05:26.719 you don't have a call sign, that's interesting because it's 0:05:27.080 --> 0:05:29.120 obviously raised the question of why don't you want this 0:05:29.200 --> 0:05:33.640 plane to be identified? And it does make it harder 0:05:34.120 --> 0:05:39.560 to figure out what agency is behind this craft. Not impossible, yeah, 0:05:39.760 --> 0:05:42.680 but that information is out there and you cross reference it. 0:05:42.880 --> 0:05:46.800 You'll look up FAA registration records, and that's usually how 0:05:46.800 --> 0:05:49.560 you'll go, oh, that's registered to DHS. Oh that's registered 0:05:49.640 --> 0:05:51.960 to California Highway Patrol or something like that. 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:54.559 Yeah, it's kind of like driving that a license plate, 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:57.560 which yeah, I suppose some agencies can do, yeah in 0:05:57.560 --> 0:05:59.280 the sky, driving with a licensed plane in the sky, 0:05:59.360 --> 0:06:00.640 that would raise them questions From. 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:03.760 Me, I'm immediately interested because I've seen those hexagans before, 0:06:04.200 --> 0:06:08.000 and that was when DHS flew predator drones above Minneapolis 0:06:08.080 --> 0:06:11.680 during the BLM protests in twenty twenty. So that is 0:06:11.720 --> 0:06:15.960 immediately really interesting. It's very distinctive, like you don't normally 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:17.599 see those patterns on flight data. 0:06:18.560 --> 0:06:21.560 Joseph started connecting the dats and he wrote an article 0:06:21.600 --> 0:06:23.880 on four or four media saying that it looked like 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:27.440 two very similar drones were flying over the anti ice 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:31.000 protests in LA and that these might belong to DHS, 0:06:31.400 --> 0:06:34.919 the Department of Homeland Security fly in a hexagon. 0:06:35.560 --> 0:06:38.479 Yeah. So again this is where the limit of my 0:06:38.720 --> 0:06:42.840 expertise shows itself. I can't necessarily say they're flying exactly 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:45.720 in a hexagon, or is that how the data is 0:06:45.760 --> 0:06:49.440 being interpreted by ADBs exchange or something like that. But 0:06:49.880 --> 0:06:52.520 it appears as a hexagon, and that is an immediate 0:06:52.520 --> 0:06:54.840 red flag of that might be a predator drone. 0:06:55.080 --> 0:06:58.000 In case that phrase predator drone sounds familiar to you, 0:06:58.480 --> 0:07:01.800 we're talking generally here about a series of unmanned aircraft 0:07:01.880 --> 0:07:06.720 developed by General Atomics, the MQ one, the Predator, and 0:07:06.760 --> 0:07:10.760 the MQ nine the Reaper. These have been used for surveillance, 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:14.080 including along the border between the US and Mexico, but 0:07:14.120 --> 0:07:17.720 they've also been used for so called targeted strikes and 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:20.920 launching air to ground missiles to kill people in places 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:24.840 like Afghanistan and Iraq. Most people wouldn't expect that one 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:28.240 of these drones were flying over a major American city. 0:07:28.560 --> 0:07:30.720 You think of predator drones, you think of this as, oh, 0:07:30.760 --> 0:07:33.320 this is something used in wartime, this is use for war. 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:38.320 Just a backup, what usually would you associate a predator with? 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:43.640 I would usually associate a predator just broadly speaking, flying 0:07:43.680 --> 0:07:49.960 over a country like Afghanistan during the US's war on terror, 0:07:50.280 --> 0:07:54.640 I would associate it with maybe a convoy of cars 0:07:54.800 --> 0:07:58.760 is driving from one location to another, and intelligence of 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:01.680 some veracity set that there is some sort of insurgent 0:08:02.400 --> 0:08:07.119 or some sort of al kaeda isis Taliban whoever leader 0:08:07.160 --> 0:08:10.240 inside this vehicle. We're now going to fire the health 0:08:10.240 --> 0:08:13.040 fire missile and we're going to destroy that vehicle. That 0:08:13.120 --> 0:08:15.240 would be the standard way of thinking about it. And 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:17.840 I think, of course, with the US's drone wars, it 0:08:17.840 --> 0:08:21.640 has targeted weddings as well. Is done so called double 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:25.680 tap processes, where you fire a drone strike, it kills people, 0:08:25.920 --> 0:08:28.120 people then go to help you, then fire a second 0:08:28.120 --> 0:08:30.720 missile because you want to get those as well. These 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:34.760 are weapons of assassination and weapons of war, and now 0:08:34.800 --> 0:08:37.839 those are flying above US soil. To be clear, I'm 0:08:37.880 --> 0:08:40.280 pretty sure that DHS ones are not armed, so I 0:08:40.360 --> 0:08:42.400 want to be very clear about that. But they are 0:08:42.440 --> 0:08:48.480 still incredibly powerful surveillance apparatus. They have very high powers 0:08:48.559 --> 0:08:53.600 cameras on them. They can potentially have very sophisticated electronic 0:08:53.800 --> 0:08:56.520 surveillance technology as well. We don't know whether that's being 0:08:56.600 --> 0:08:59.440 used above these protests, but at. 0:08:59.320 --> 0:09:02.520 This point Joseph wasn't one hundred percent sure who these 0:09:02.559 --> 0:09:05.840 aircraft belonged to. And this is where a community of 0:09:05.880 --> 0:09:09.480 people who study this stuff come in. An aviation enthusiast 0:09:09.520 --> 0:09:13.120 named aero Scout did some digging and finally helped connect 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:14.040 that final dat. 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:17.000 I tried to see where it took off. I can't 0:09:17.000 --> 0:09:20.040 figure it out. Maybe it had this transponder off or 0:09:20.120 --> 0:09:24.360 whatever before that. Eventually I see it flies to the 0:09:24.480 --> 0:09:28.400 US Mexican border, which is obviously where US Customs and 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:31.760 Border Protection hangs out and stores some of their drones. 0:09:32.240 --> 0:09:35.800 So they were very smart and they followed the flight 0:09:35.840 --> 0:09:37.880 path of what looked like the drone. They found the 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:41.640 relevant atc Audio, and in that haystack they found a 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:45.280 couple of needles, including the mention of Troy, which is 0:09:45.280 --> 0:09:47.480 the DHS call sign. Even though this drone is not 0:09:47.520 --> 0:09:51.199 broadcasting a call sign, it's mentioned there. And then crucially, 0:09:51.600 --> 0:09:53.559 some of the audio says a Q nine, which is 0:09:53.640 --> 0:09:56.640 shorthand for the MQ nine, which is the official name 0:09:56.760 --> 0:09:59.840 for a Predator or a reaper drone. So cross referencing 0:10:00.200 --> 0:10:05.920 it was confirmed. I actually emailed Customs and Border protection. First, 0:10:06.280 --> 0:10:08.839 when I first saw the hexagons, I was like, oh, 0:10:08.920 --> 0:10:11.600 I mean I have to immediately approach the comment. Now. 0:10:11.880 --> 0:10:14.840 They took several days to get back to me, like 0:10:14.880 --> 0:10:17.800 an unusually long time. But then they got back to 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:20.760 me and they confirmed that their MQ nine predators are 0:10:20.800 --> 0:10:24.439 supporting federal law enforcement in the Greater Los Angeles area, 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:28.360 including quote, Immigration and Customs enforcement with aerial support of 0:10:28.400 --> 0:10:29.199 their operations. 0:10:29.400 --> 0:10:30.640 Okay, so specifically ICE. 0:10:30.720 --> 0:10:34.480 Also yes, because I asked, are you flying these for 0:10:34.559 --> 0:10:39.280 yourselves or you flying them for another agency? This statement says, yes, 0:10:39.360 --> 0:10:44.560 we are flying them for ICE. Interestingly, CBB says it 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:49.000 is not engaged in the surveillance of First Amendment activities. 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:52.480 End quote, which is, well, you're flying above a protest, 0:10:53.000 --> 0:10:55.480 I hope, Like, are you just not gonna You're gonna 0:10:55.520 --> 0:10:58.079 not point the camera at the protest? 0:10:58.400 --> 0:11:01.640 Yeah, I'm sorry. Not read that sentence to me again. 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:03.000 I need to partse that again. 0:11:03.080 --> 0:11:06.439 This is the four quote. Additionally, they are providing officers 0:11:06.480 --> 0:11:11.679 safety surveillance ren requested by officers air and marine operations. 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:16.199 Is not engaged in the surveillance First Amendment activities. 0:11:17.200 --> 0:11:22.959 First Amendment activities, I would certainly associate with the protest. 0:11:23.440 --> 0:11:25.040 That is interesting, Okay. 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:27.320 I would say it's a few different ways to interpret it. 0:11:27.520 --> 0:11:30.720 The one would be that, oh, no, we were asked 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:34.560 by ICE to fly and provide situational awareness for the 0:11:34.559 --> 0:11:36.800 protection of our employee. Is that sort of thing, and 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:42.360 maybe we incidentally filmed people protesting. That's one very charitable interpretation. 0:11:42.720 --> 0:11:45.960 Another one would be that we don't view the protests's 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:49.520 First Amendment protected speech because they're all violent or whatever. 0:11:50.040 --> 0:11:54.440 And again this is me extrapolating from the statement. But 0:11:54.520 --> 0:11:59.040 when you marry that statement with drone footage like DHS 0:11:59.080 --> 0:12:04.040 posted on Twitter, it says these protests that they are violent, 0:12:04.360 --> 0:12:06.880 California needs to get this under control. And there's footage 0:12:06.880 --> 0:12:08.880 from a drone. They don't say predator. By'm going to 0:12:08.960 --> 0:12:11.880 presume it's the predator and it's specifically of the protest 0:12:12.280 --> 0:12:14.199 like it shows Peel protesting. So I don't know. It's 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:16.240 very hard to square that statement with the fact that 0:12:16.280 --> 0:12:20.160 a predator drone flew not just above downtown LA, but 0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.720 also flew above Paramount. It flew above the two areas 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:23.680 where the protests were. 0:12:23.840 --> 0:12:26.480 Let's talk real briefly if we could about this site 0:12:26.480 --> 0:12:29.280 where you're able to actually track stuff. This data is 0:12:29.679 --> 0:12:32.120 basically freely available to anybody who wants to look at it. 0:12:32.320 --> 0:12:37.280 Yeah, you can go to adsb exchange dot com right now. 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:41.080 You can then move your cursor over Los Angeles and 0:12:41.080 --> 0:12:43.800 then you can see the air traffic coming in and out. 0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:49.240 But it is an amazing tool journalistically for researchers as well, 0:12:49.640 --> 0:12:52.920 and this information is available to anybody. It's just a 0:12:52.960 --> 0:12:55.720 barrier to entry for interpreting it. And again I'm absolutely 0:12:55.760 --> 0:12:58.240 non expert. I'm just good enough to go that looks 0:12:58.280 --> 0:13:00.719 like a drone to me people who are a lot 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:01.480 better than me. 0:13:01.800 --> 0:13:03.680 So at first, there's a flight pattern that looks like 0:13:03.720 --> 0:13:07.920 it's a hexagon. This looks like Minneapolis twenty twenty. And 0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:11.319 actually tipping back to twenty twenty, when you first realized 0:13:11.400 --> 0:13:14.760 that there was a predator flying over Minneapolis, were you 0:13:14.800 --> 0:13:15.480 surprised at all? 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:18.360 I was entirely shocked, and that was the first time 0:13:18.440 --> 0:13:21.199 I had seen it. My co founder, Jason Kubler has 0:13:21.280 --> 0:13:24.120 been covering drones is and years. He may have been 0:13:24.240 --> 0:13:26.760 less surprised, but I think I almost had a benefit 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:29.960 of coming in sort of clear eyed about it because 0:13:30.120 --> 0:13:34.240 they're flying predator drones for protests. That's insane to me, 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:37.800 as somebody way back when I was actually an intern 0:13:38.120 --> 0:13:41.560 at the Bureau of Investigative Journalism in London, and I 0:13:41.760 --> 0:13:44.240 was one of my jobs was you need to enter 0:13:44.360 --> 0:13:47.800 into a spreadsheet the drone strikes from Obama's drone war 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:51.040 inside Yemen and then subsequent administrations as well. So for 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:55.440 me journalistically, predator drones, reaper drones, they are a weapon 0:13:55.520 --> 0:13:58.280 for war, they are a weapon for assassination, and now 0:13:58.280 --> 0:14:01.679 they're flying essentially that same technology over protests inside the 0:14:01.760 --> 0:14:04.960 United States. I was blown away by that. I confirmed 0:14:05.000 --> 0:14:07.520 it with DHS at the time, and then I started 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:11.199 to go back and look through more flight data associated 0:14:11.240 --> 0:14:13.960 with those drones and you could then go look through 0:14:14.080 --> 0:14:16.600 historical data and figure out, oh, they're actually flying these 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:20.400 all over the country, sometimes over the one hundred mile 0:14:20.520 --> 0:14:23.960 border limit above US cities. So this is actually happening 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:27.760 for a long time. It's just we don't necessarily understand 0:14:27.960 --> 0:14:31.040 or see that. Customs and Border Protection published footage, so 0:14:31.040 --> 0:14:33.920 that they said was drone footage, and it's very clear 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:37.680 you can see people running around and protesting and the 0:14:37.720 --> 0:14:41.000 police response and all of that. So in this context, 0:14:41.200 --> 0:14:44.800 they're being used as a situational awareness tool, is what 0:14:44.960 --> 0:14:49.280 CPB told me. But I still think it's wild and 0:14:49.320 --> 0:14:52.040 there's a big public interest in telling people there's like 0:14:52.040 --> 0:14:54.280 a dot in the sky watching this, and you may 0:14:54.280 --> 0:14:56.520 not realize that, and then we have a conversation about 0:14:56.520 --> 0:14:59.120 whether we want that where we think it's proportionate. Some 0:14:59.120 --> 0:15:02.040 people might be okay, but we can't have that conversation. 0:15:02.160 --> 0:15:04.120 That's what digging free flight, DATCHA and finding out in 0:15:04.120 --> 0:15:04.720 the first place. 0:15:05.200 --> 0:15:09.440 So these situational awareness tools, that dot in the sky 0:15:09.560 --> 0:15:13.400 might feel distant, but it is watching. That being said, 0:15:13.720 --> 0:15:17.120 that's not the only way people are being watched. That's 0:15:17.160 --> 0:15:32.440 after the break. If you go to a protest, whether 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:35.000 you're actually marching all day or you're just there for 0:15:35.040 --> 0:15:37.720 a little bit to see what's going on, you're probably 0:15:37.720 --> 0:15:41.120 aware that you're being watched more than normal. For some people, 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:45.280 maybe that's comforting. For others that feels like a risk 0:15:45.440 --> 0:15:49.520 that would make them uncomfortable. Surveillance is no longer theoretical. 0:15:50.200 --> 0:15:53.320 It's over your head, it's in your pocket, and especially 0:15:53.320 --> 0:15:56.880 at a protest, it's all around you. So this brings 0:15:56.920 --> 0:15:59.880 me to another set of questions. Which is I've been 0:16:00.120 --> 0:16:03.360 here physically out documenting protests as best as I can 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.720 on one person, and as I'm out here reporting on 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:09.640 the protests, actually physically going to the protests. And I've 0:16:09.640 --> 0:16:14.800 covered protests before where people are increasingly concerned about their security. Right, 0:16:14.960 --> 0:16:17.960 especially in twenty twenty, people were already wearing masks because 0:16:17.960 --> 0:16:20.400 of COVID, which you didn't see too much of before 0:16:20.440 --> 0:16:22.440 that it would really sort of a select group of 0:16:22.440 --> 0:16:24.560 people who would wear masks to a protest. You saw 0:16:24.560 --> 0:16:27.000 that more than twenty twenty, and you certainly see that now. 0:16:27.240 --> 0:16:32.880 But if there are drones in the sky, realistically, how 0:16:33.680 --> 0:16:35.840 anonymous can one be at a protest? 0:16:36.000 --> 0:16:39.280 And I'll preface this with I'm not necessarily giving advice 0:16:39.440 --> 0:16:43.240 to one side or activists, law enforcement, to any It's 0:16:43.240 --> 0:16:46.920 more just like a cold analysis of the technology itself. 0:16:47.280 --> 0:16:49.920 I wouldn't say it's impossible, but I would say it 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:54.800 has got exponentially harder, just based on the sort of 0:16:54.840 --> 0:16:57.480 technology that's going to be at one of these protests. So, 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:01.000 as we've said, you'll have prejudice drones with very high 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:04.400 powered cameras. I don't know whether footage from that would 0:17:04.440 --> 0:17:08.199 be used in a criminal prosecution or anything like that. 0:17:08.240 --> 0:17:11.639 But regardless, it's there and it's collecting data on the 0:17:11.680 --> 0:17:14.520 ground or even sometimes in the drone. Maybe you will 0:17:14.640 --> 0:17:18.760 have technologies such as imsy catchers, which are basically these 0:17:18.960 --> 0:17:23.640 fake cell phone towers which broadcast a signal they trick 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:27.159 phones into connecting to them, and that can give up 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.680 unique identifiers associated with your phone. That can be sort 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:33.920 of a springboard for law enforcement to then go get 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:37.919 more information about people. They can also in some cases 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:42.919 intercept text messages and phone calls as well, although with 0:17:43.080 --> 0:17:45.920 upgrades to four G and five G like that may 0:17:45.960 --> 0:17:48.800 not necessarily be the case. And then the big one 0:17:48.800 --> 0:17:50.639 for me is that I don't think we've seen it 0:17:50.760 --> 0:17:53.320 deployed by will be very interested if state or local 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:57.199 do use This is, of course, facial recognition technology, where 0:17:57.400 --> 0:18:00.440 so many agencies across the United States by this tool 0:18:00.480 --> 0:18:04.840 called CLEARVIEWAI that's built on a massive database of billions 0:18:04.840 --> 0:18:08.040 of images of people's faces. They point a camera at 0:18:08.080 --> 0:18:10.280 somebody on their phone. It's an app you installed on 0:18:10.280 --> 0:18:12.920 the phone. A police officer does that, scans the face 0:18:12.960 --> 0:18:16.040 and brings up their vembo or whatever it is, so 0:18:16.080 --> 0:18:19.399 they can identify the person quite easily. Apparently it works 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:22.320 in some cases even when people are wearing masks, and 0:18:22.680 --> 0:18:25.600 it's sort of to hammer on that just cold analysis 0:18:25.600 --> 0:18:29.080 of the tech. I think that might also be why 0:18:29.119 --> 0:18:32.840 a lot of ice officers and well primarily ice officers 0:18:32.880 --> 0:18:36.840 masking their faces right, may be concerned about there, because 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:39.760 there's actually tools that anybody can use in the same 0:18:39.800 --> 0:18:42.320 sort of way anybody can access flight data. There are 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:45.560 facial recognition tools that anybody can access and you can 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:47.399 put faces through there. 0:18:47.600 --> 0:18:51.159 Officers also being concerned about being identified themselves using the 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:52.200 same sort of technology. 0:18:52.280 --> 0:18:54.560 But potentially, yeah, it's a dual use technology. It can 0:18:54.560 --> 0:18:57.040 be used by anybody. Because the access to this tech 0:18:57.440 --> 0:19:00.159 has filtered down. It's not just a tool for law 0:19:00.200 --> 0:19:03.040 enforcements anymore. It's a tool for anybody with an Internet 0:19:03.040 --> 0:19:04.280 connection and the smartphone. 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:08.200 There's really two things that we can be thinking about 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:11.359 when we're thinking about ones. I suppose the right to 0:19:11.400 --> 0:19:13.520 privacy even just walking around on the street, and this 0:19:13.560 --> 0:19:15.399 is something that you cover a lot just in general. 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:17.320 Do you have the right to privacy when you go 0:19:17.800 --> 0:19:21.080 and buy chicken at the store or buy apples at 0:19:21.119 --> 0:19:23.679 the store. And increasingly I think people are paying a 0:19:23.680 --> 0:19:25.800 bit more attention to this they maybe haven't been in 0:19:25.840 --> 0:19:29.239 the past. But there's of course, when somebody hears there 0:19:29.240 --> 0:19:31.880 are drones in the sky, I think immediately some people 0:19:31.960 --> 0:19:36.240 might be immediately concerned, Hey, why is somebody spying on me? 0:19:36.400 --> 0:19:39.080 Right immediately might think about that. There's also the fact 0:19:39.240 --> 0:19:43.040 that there's so many cameras. There's so many cameras at 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:46.920 a protest, you basically can't avoid being on cameras somewhere. 0:19:47.359 --> 0:19:50.080 While I was looking at the flight data over the weekend, 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:54.800 I was pairing it with this sort of compilation of 0:19:54.920 --> 0:19:58.600 live streams on tiktoks. Some YouTube channel had very handily 0:19:58.640 --> 0:20:00.840 taken all of these people who are on TikTok or 0:20:00.880 --> 0:20:03.280 over platforms and put it all on one screen. So 0:20:03.359 --> 0:20:06.080 I could watch like the LA protests from all of 0:20:06.119 --> 0:20:09.000 these different angles at once, and I say, wow, this 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:12.800 is pretty useful actually, and it would switch audio of them. 0:20:12.840 --> 0:20:14.960 But like I was only able to do that because 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:16.760 ordinary people are filming at live streaming. 0:20:16.920 --> 0:20:19.080 If you're able to watch it and other people are 0:20:19.080 --> 0:20:21.400 able to watch it, of course law enforcement is able 0:20:21.440 --> 0:20:21.920 to watch this. 0:20:22.320 --> 0:20:25.760 Yeah, and they will then be able to archive that 0:20:25.920 --> 0:20:30.800 footage potentially, and if they feel the need to for 0:20:30.840 --> 0:20:34.040 whatever reason. You can also do facial recognition tech after 0:20:34.080 --> 0:20:35.920 the fact. It's not just a live thing. You can 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:39.840 take a video that was uploaded or streamed to TikTok 0:20:39.920 --> 0:20:42.280 or whatever and then run the technology on that after 0:20:42.320 --> 0:20:45.280 the fact. This is why Laura enforcement are so attracted 0:20:45.280 --> 0:20:48.080 to this and why clear View and other products have 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:50.320 been so popular across the US is that you can 0:20:50.359 --> 0:20:54.400 take something as singular as someone's face and then use 0:20:54.400 --> 0:20:56.240 that as a springboard for a criminal investigation. 0:20:57.480 --> 0:21:02.760 I think one of the really fascinating things about protests 0:21:02.840 --> 0:21:05.080 right now, if I can say that, is that, on 0:21:05.119 --> 0:21:07.840 the one hand, you do have people, I think rightfully so, 0:21:08.160 --> 0:21:11.760 who are concerned about surveillance of any type. Right there's 0:21:12.080 --> 0:21:16.480 actual official, purposeful surveillance, say by a drone, and there 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:19.359 would be law enforce on watching somebody's TikTok of them. 0:21:19.520 --> 0:21:22.560 On the flip side, there is a desire for documentation. 0:21:22.640 --> 0:21:25.320 We've seen time and time again how difficult is it 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:28.600 to get police to release body cam footage and how 0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:32.440 many things would have gone unreported, George Floyd's murder being 0:21:32.440 --> 0:21:35.520 one of them if somebody were not there to document it. 0:21:35.600 --> 0:21:38.159 And I've seen and filmed plenty of things that probably 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:40.920 a lot of people would not have known about had 0:21:40.960 --> 0:21:43.560 somebody not been there with a camera. Yeah, and there's 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:46.920 this kind of the dual concerns. I suppose the desire 0:21:47.040 --> 0:21:49.960 for really everybody should be able to film something, the 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:53.360 public should know about things. But then everybody is filming 0:21:53.400 --> 0:21:56.760 things and everyone, if we allow for the police to 0:21:56.760 --> 0:21:58.720 be part of the public, can see it also. 0:21:59.280 --> 0:22:06.199 Yeah, ubiquitous surveillance is absolutely a double edged sword. With 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:08.120 everything you've said, and I agree with all of it, 0:22:08.320 --> 0:22:11.720 I guess I would lean towards Ultimately, I think it's 0:22:11.720 --> 0:22:14.840 probably a good thing that more people are able to 0:22:14.960 --> 0:22:18.720 film more and more events over time. The idea that 0:22:18.840 --> 0:22:23.080 anybody can see some sort of injustice happening, police brutality 0:22:23.359 --> 0:22:27.080 or whatever and go and film it, I think, on 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:30.760 average hands out to be a good and powerful thing. 0:22:30.840 --> 0:22:32.719 And I think you can see that where in some 0:22:32.800 --> 0:22:35.360 of the ice raids or the ice activity you can 0:22:35.440 --> 0:22:38.560 overhear or people have reported that they will say, go 0:22:38.600 --> 0:22:40.520 for the one with the camera. This is a very 0:22:40.560 --> 0:22:46.240 powerful tool for the public and for everybody. Just people 0:22:46.359 --> 0:22:49.720 may want to be careful about what they film, just 0:22:49.760 --> 0:22:51.479 in the same way I'm careful about. I'm not going 0:22:51.560 --> 0:22:54.240 to go on Facebook and upload a bunch of photos 0:22:54.240 --> 0:22:56.280